Queen Havoc and Her Murder Cult - Episode 10: Court For The Queen

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

The trial picks up steam. On the witness stand, Marinda Steyn claims she is the mastermind behind the murders. Cecilia denies knowing anything about it and Zak Valentine claims he can’t remember. Le Roux and John Barnard’s confessions help the case against EPD, but Marcel’s catharsis becomes the final missing puzzle piece. Collectively the group is sentenced to over two thousand years in prison. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The True Crime Podcast, Sacred Scandal, returns for a second season to investigate a led sexual abuse at Mexico's La Luz del Mundo Mega Church. Journalist Robert Garza explores survivor stories of pure evil experiences at the hands of a self-proclaimed apostle who is now behind bars. I remember as a little girl being groomed to be his concubine, that's how I was raised. It is not wrong if you take your clothes off for the Apostle. Listen to Sacred Scandal on the IHR radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 911 what's your emergency? It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. An Achiller?

Who is still on the loose? In the 1980s we're in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. We weren't safe anywhere. Would we be next? It was getting harder and harder to live in Mompine. Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Facing Evil is back and we're bringing you conversations that matter.

I can't tell you how many times she had said he's going to kill me. I will never escape him, he will find me and he will kill me. We're talking with experts and change makers devoted to making a difference in these tragic true crime stories. Our system failed us, we need to make sure that that does not happen again. Listen to Facing Evil on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. School of Humans.

This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised. material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised. In May of 2018, the case against Cecilia Stein and electus per dayus was moved from district to high court. Since the group's arrest in 2016, nearly two years had gone by. In that time, Ben Boyzen had to reassemble case files from six years prior and piece together all that had happened since 2012 in order to connect EPD to the murders and get them convicted. Back in 2016, John Barnard turned state's witness. He'd agreed to testify against EPD, which got him out of a life sentence.

He would serve 20 years. Leroux was also now officially a witness for the state. His testimony against Cecilia, his mother, and Zach Valentine is how the prosecution tied EPD to the 2012 murders. Leroux and John Barnard statements, paired with all the evidence gathered by detective Su-Zet Kanotsai and Captain Johan Benvic, made EPD's involvement plausible beyond a reasonable doubt. Not to mention the guns in Miranda's classroom and the blood found on her carpet. Blood later discovered to be that of Anthony Scofield.

Psychologist Rosalind McNabb was hired by the state to advocate for Marcel, who was under age when the crimes were committed. Like all those who heard Miranda's accounts of the murders, McNabb recalls being deeply disturbed. On the stand she lied blatantly to save Cecilia. I killed Reginald and I enjoyed every minute of an under it because I wanted to and I wanted to feel the power and went into great gory detail about how she did it and saying it had nothing to do with Cecilia. Miranda Stein was served 11 life sentences and 115 years for 11 murders.

The two years that LaRue spent behind bars provided him ample time to consider the sting of his mother's betrayal. Her many betrayals, but especially the altering of her will. Her many betrayals, but especially the altering of her will. On the stand, Miranda claimed she was the mastermind behind all the murders and implicated LaRue and Zach in her statements. She excluded Cecilia and Marcel from this testimony in a rare act of motherly love. For his testimony, LaRue was offered a reduced sentence of 25 years. Ben Boison remembers the verdict against La Roo. La Roo cried when he was found guilty, and in front of his mother, he said, thank you,

Captain, for sending this bitch to jail, and pointing at his mother. So, y'all, I think at that stage, he might piece with himself that his mother actually forced him to commit murder. Cecilia, Zack, and Marcel all pleaded not guilty. Cecilia, to this day, claims she knew nothing and had nothing to do with the murders. She told me herself, when I spoke to her in prison. No one can force you to do anything. There's no such thing as the devil made me do it.

There's no such thing as God made me do it. We make our own choices. We act on our own impulses and martial and little who has the reasons they did what they did. And yeah, there's nothing anybody can say to change someone else's mind. From School of Humans and Ihar Podcasts, this is Queen Havoc and her murder cult. I'm your host, Kurt Kubicek. Episode 10, court for the Queen. Episode 10. Court for the Queen.

In 2018, the year following the initial sentencing of Miranda and LaRue, the state called 52 out of about 200 witnesses to testify against three members of electives per day. The three that eventually went to trial was Cecilia, Zac and Marcel. electors per dayas. Ben told us about how he had to be careful when choosing who to call to the stand. Anyone who believes Cecilia had ties to Satanism could have confused the judge. Way back in the first episode, we talked about how the judicial system does take Satanism seriously. But as we now know, her satanic past was nothing but a tool Cecilia used to convince her followers to commit these horrendous crimes.

Any connection to the devil was contrived when no bearing on the murders themselves. At the end of the day, what is the judge going to believe in what he is not going to believe you understand. So we needed to choose our witnesses to prove our case and not to damage our case. Even so, considering all that EPD had gotten away with up to this point, faith in the judicial system was hard to come by. Even when we started going to court, there was doubt in the family's eyes that these people eventually are going to be found guilty. Yana Marx, working as a courtroom journalist at the time, was used to watching trials. Yana kept a keen eye on all the witnesses' behavior and body language.

She noticed that Cecilia appeared completely unfazed by the proceedings. She, Zach and Marcel, at least at first, stuck together, like a little click, hiding behind their witty rapport. They started as a very chatty group. A lot of fun fun and games. Cecilia is very, you know, she's very lively and tells jokes and that happens in court. They say that they made little personal jokes and they pointed and stayed at people and that's how it started. One of the key witnesses they mocked was Rhea Grunovold, EPD's first victim, at least in a psychological sense,

and Cecilia's apparent motivation for the revenge killings in 2012. It took weeks for state prosecutors and police to convince Rhea to come out of hiding and appear in court. She did so only under the condition that no photographs be taken of her. Her testimony brought her into the same room as Cecilia and E.P.D. for the first time in five years. Yanna reported that Ria's written testimony, read. It was a very difficult time, and I was not able to discuss it with anyone. Flearing that sea could be punished for speaking out, I had to be strong for her. She also isolated me from everyone I knew.

She lied about everything. She also isolated me from everyone I knew. She lied about everything. I couldn't do anything without them knowing. I believed her. I then decided to end my commitment to see and I set up that appointment with her where I was threatened. The race to history.

The race to see history. With 11 others killed, Rhea managed to escape from the vortex of Cecilia Stein with her life. However, she is still paying a high price. Rhea lost her home, her livelihood. She lost contact with her children in the rest of her family. Existence as she knew it ceased. It's like her life was murdered, where she went on living. She didn't even admit to me where she went to stay. Until today, a children dance beat to a grand children dance here. So she's still in hiding today, somewhere in South Africa.

Some of the witnesses that took the stand included members of Cecilia's outer circle. Folks involved in the No Your Enemy classes she held for a time back in 2012. Neighbors of the murder victims and members of the task team also testified. Here's Detective Kurt Kruger. There was the witness that we were having a party next to the house where Mr. McGregor was

staying. They said it was a white female who had a very funny, she was walking funny. They described it like, almost like walking like a duck and it was Miranda. Even Luke came out of witness protection to testify against them and report on his chilling time around the group. As Cecilia, Zack and Marcel witnessed their damning testimony, they became increasingly less chummy. Their body language began to reflect the degradation of Cecilia's mind control. As more testimony came forward, more evidence came forward,

as if the group literally physically moved away from one another on the bench. The more Cecilia allowed everyone else to take the blame for her, the more Zach and Marcel recoiled. See how it's in the middle? Still just, you know, observing writing, she took notes. That's right. Cecilia took notes.

She had to keep her story straight. And you have a Zach Valentine. Zach would literally sit on one butt cheek. Like he's going to fall off the bench at any moment. He was so far away just to say it away from her and Marcel the same on the other side. Marcel was in a dark place throughout the proceedings. Each time she was called to the stand,

she denied everything, which implicated her brother and made way for her mother to continue to sacrifice her own life in exaltation of Cecilia. So Masal obviously grew more and more depressed as she realized okay Cecilia set up the whole trial she planned the whole trial in advance and Masal went with it. Ben tried talking to Marcel but she was reluctant even to the point of self-sabotage. Marcel, from the beginning, told me to go fuck myself. That was a wits. A father, a real father, arranged the lawyers. A good advocate, and she said no.

She doesn't want a father, but she's not guilty. Remember, the primary charge was racketeering. This was used as a pathway to prove their involvement in the murders. This risky and unprecedented strategy turned out to be a clever move on Ben's part. This is the first case in the history of South Africa we murdered as a church with racketeering and was found guilty in the Icord. So, even though each EPD defendant had their own lawyers, allegations against one implicated them all.

As the trial progressed, and obviously they had their own legal representatives, and every legal counsel obviously wants to exonerate their own client, and they would throw the others under the bus. Zach helped fast to the story that he didn't remember anything. Even the day that his car caught on fire, but Miranda, describing his direct involvement while on the stand, revealed suspicious inconsistencies in the narrative. This prolonged the trial. Over the course of three years, from 2016 through 2019, electus per deus only spent a total of 60 days in court, but prosecutors were relentless in their pursuit of the truth.

The most critical testimonies, though, were the ones given by LaRou and Barnard. Again, Yanemarks noted LaRue's physical and emotive language. LaRue, not a small boy coming into court, but he grew more confident during his testimony. I remember him not being able to say the word murder or killing. He had been brainwashed and pressured by his own mother in Cecilia since he was just a kid. I think the first two, three days of his testimony, he would just say, yeah, and then it's happened.

Then that happened. Assuming murder, or then I would strangle the guy and then it happened. So it was very interesting to see how he evolved during his testimony. I think, like, freeing himself from the bondage of his mother, the bondage of the Celia being in their service. Leroux's striking neck tattoo of a large Mary Annette puppet took on a symbolic new meaning throughout the course of the trial. course of the trial. As he found his footing in court, LaRue's confidence may have been boosted by his budding friendship with journalist Muritska Kotser. LaRue confided in Muritska about all the ways he was abused by his mother in Cecilia. His mother beat him up because how dare he questions Cecilia, you know, and it's really sad, he said to me, the one time his mother hit him more than 30 times, she hit him so hard, he weighed his pants, and

this was when he was 16 years old. Even behind bars, the roof feared Cecilia's spectral wrath. There's actually one time where he was in jail, he's been sentenced. We asked me about astrotravel. He actually genuinely asked me if I thought it was real and do I think the Celia can get to him and harm him. And I'm like, let her, you know this is a bunch of shit. Come on now.

But it just shows you how long he's been manipulated. You know, sitting in jail, he's like, what if the Cecilia can sneak into my cell and come and hurt me, you know? What the public didn't know, however, was that Maritska and Laruz relationship had evolved from journalist and suspect to a friendship and then to a fully fledged romance.

When that lasted for two and a half years, they were already in item before the Roo was even officially sentenced in 2018. He owes me the day before he was sentenced while I was a year's girlfriend. And at that point, you know, I kind of like froze because like half of me thought, what's the harm of being someone's girlfriend in jail? I'll never get involved like that. And the other off of me felt sorry for him, you know, like, how can I say no now,

knowing that tomorrow is getting sentenced for, let's say, 20 or 25 years. So, you know, and I just said yes, you know, but I did like him out of crush on him. But can you imagine the first day that this is now my boyfriend, I'm standing in court looking at how he's being sentenced? That was really a very sad, you know, moment. Muritsko was married at the time, and the couple had a young daughter.

By 2019, with the case mounting against Cecilia, Zach and Marcel, Zach got wind of their relationship and tried to use it to his advantage. Zach was the only one that had a private attorney. Everyone else had said to attorneys, Zach's parents paid that lawyer over 2 million rangers to help him get away with murder. So one of their plans was to get me, subpoena, to tell the court that the police was using me. Zach's attorney aimed to get LaRue's testimony stricken from the record.

He argued that Maritska was working with Ben and the task team to influence LaRue's story. While Maritska's behavior is indeed a breach of journalistic ethics, Zack's attempt to leverage her in LaRue's love for his own game, Carter Offguard. It's like no, your exacts attorney is trying to say that the police is using me to manipulate Leroy. 911, what's your emergency? You shot her! Oh my God! It's a nightmare we could never have imagined.

An echelon who is still on the loose. My small town rocked by murder. There are certain murders I'm scared to discuss. In the 1980s, we're in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. One after another, after another, for a decade. We weren't safe anywhere. We're teenagers terrified to leave our own homes.

Would we be next? Who is killing all the kids? And why? In that moment, I saw rage. And why do you some want the town secrets to stay dead and buried forever? I'm not sure why you're digging up all this old stuff again, but I'd be careful. Don't say I didn't warn you, Nancy. Listen to the murder years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Sacred Skando, one of the best new podcasts of 2022, is back with a closer look at the darkness surrounding mega-church La Luz del Mundo and its leader, Nasson Joaquin Garcia.

They believe that he was Jesus Christ on Earth. It wasn't even so much that he liked sex. He wanted something to pray. It's the largest cult in the world that no one has ever heard of. For three generations, the use of the world had an incredible control on his community that began in Mexico

and then grew across the United States, until one day. A day of reckoning for the man whose millions of followers called him the Apostle. Their leader was arrested and survivors began to speak out about the sexual abuse, the murder and corruption. This is just a business and their product are people. They want to know that They will kill you. Listen to all episodes now on the I Heart Rainy Up, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts.

Early in 2019, in a desperate act of self-preservation, Zach Valentine and his lawyer tried to sell the story that Maritska was upon used by the police to convince LaRue to stay on his confessional track. If this were true, it would discredit LaRue's testimony and further complicate the case against EPD. Maritska fought to stay off the stand. I'm like a hell to the note, because now can you know imagine? I need to appear in court.

I'm a journalist now. I need to go explain. So I was like, this shit is not going down, you know? The judge recognized that there were more important issues at stake than an accused killer's girlfriend and rejected the request from Zack's attorney. And luckily the judge threw it out, so I was like, you, I dodged the bullet, okay?

But little did I know, I did not dodge a bullet. The whole, I don't know, like nine yards were coming for me. But Zack and his lawyer didn't quit. After that filed, Zack's girlfriend went to a Sunday newspaper. So it's basically the place where I work to assist the publication. Can we pause? Are you telling me Zack had a girlfriend? It was actually his fiance. How can that woman date Zack? Isn't she scared he's going

to murder as well? I'll give it anyways back to to how I saw my awesome guy. That same week, Maritzka's life began to crumble. When I laughed at work, my boss found me. And she said to me, from this point on, I'm not allowed to speak to anyone anymore. I'm not allowed to speak to my colleagues. I'm not allowed to go out on stories. By the end of the week, she lost her job. By the Friday that I arrived at work.

As I got to the entrance, the HR lady was waiting there for me. I didn't even enter that building. They took my laptop, they took my access card, and they suspended me. Although her marriage had been falling apart for a while, she was still living in the house she shared with her husband and their young daughter. I'm a married woman, so now I'm finding my husband.

Then my favourite police contact, right? I message our situation, yeah, I'm a criminal. I need to tell you something. And then she said to me, yes, she saw online. I'm like, what? So while I was driving home, they already put out a press release, saying that I've been suspended in connection with the murders. Maritska could be charged with obstruction of justice

in connection with 11 murders, serious charges. So now you can with no, like, everyone likes to suspect what's going on here. But that's still nothing, because this is the Friday. Sunday morning I wake up. I wake up not only to the news of my affair everywhere, but I mean on the lamp poles. Moritzka's face next to a picture of Larue, the murderer, plastered all over Kruger's door on the lamp posts. It says journalists, madly, and love with Gilbert.

That was the craziest feeling in the world. You know, like becoming the front page story. It often feels like we could dedicate an entire podcast to just one of the many subplots orbiting around Cecilia and EPD. This is certainly one of those times. LaRue and Maritska's relationship would survive this. In fact, it would last until the COVID-19 lockdown in 2020. Maritska's insight into LaRue, however biased, did help us to understand him as a person in a big way. She shared with us many of the details of their relationship, introducing a side to LaRue

that we hadn't seen before, a young man with a big heart. A human being, desiring a relationship, the comfort of a partner, something he'd never had before. She also told us that he was experiencing a new level of paranoia in prison. He could not shake the profound fear that had been nurtured and reinforced in him for years. Moritzka, looking at this some three years later, was insightful as she reflected on how we all build walls around ourselves, cold or no cold.

And I remember the one day arriving at home, and as I stopped in front of the gate, I thought to myself, everyone has their own prisons. And as I opened that gate, I thought to myself, Larry doesn't have a key to the East prison, but I've got my own key. Which brings us to Marcel, a young woman living inside the prison of her own mind.

Marcel was a bit different, I think, the whole country's sympathy, lay with Marcel. On the stand, two years younger than LaRou,y and Quiet, Marcel came across as Dawcile, and played up her innocence behind big glasses. Her style has stark contrast to the high-goth get-ups of the rest of E.P.D. She looked almost immure, her hair neatly pulled into a French braid, almost as if she grew up in a pastoral setting. She had grown accustomed to saying as little as possible, so as not to defy her mother in Cecilia's orders,

and hoping against hope for her mother's affection. Here a psychologist, Rosalind McNabb. Myself still did not really, but she still wanted to believe in her mom somehow, until the element hour. So that unfortunately didn't go too well for her. News accounts of the trial paint Marcel as clearly subject to profound manipulation, a fearful child.

I think that obviously see their mom adoring Cecilia. So you can imagine this young little girl, I'm gonna call her like little girl, because she was so young when she started to live in Cecilia's house. Marcel was 10 when her mother met Cecilia, and 13 when she moved in with her and took responsibility for all of Cecilia's needs,

and those of Cecilia's two young children. I think she was also thinking she was doing the right thing because the adults all had consensus on this so this had to be the right thing. Marcel confided in Rosalyn that she had looked up to Cecilia. Marcel speaks about how she really lot of Cecilia. She thought that this woman was her hero. She dressed like her, she so did most of the members of that group. She thought that whatever she said was amazing.

She was her role model. She spoke about her in a speech at school. Especially after witnessing Michaela's murder, Marcel had no female role models in her life. But just like her brother, Marcel grew up right there on the witness stand in front of the world. Marcel was a little shy girl coming into the court. You could definitely see a youthfulness.

I don't want to say an innocent innocence because I mean, after killing, I don't think I've any more of that left. But she was scared. And I remember seeing this little girl with a big eyes behind the glasses sitting in And as the trial progressed, it's as if she evolved herself. After an entire year of watching the trial unfold and lying on the stand to protect Cecilia, Marcel started to reconsider the implications of staying silent. She realized there was an alarm moment because she still believed that there was a lumpy which the prison wardens showed her luck.

This doesn't say that in the Bible and that was the trigger for her. Marcel started thinking about coming clean to the judge despite being consistently threatened by her mother in Cecilia. She actually said to me, my mom said to me, that if you stand up and you tell the truth, we will kill you in sunsetty prison. Cecilia and myself, we will kill you. Given the conflicting testimony, prosecutors struggled to gain traction on murder charges against Cecilia. No one seemed to tell the same story of what had gone down inside the walls of EPD.

According to countless witnesses, Cecilia was set to be in charge. But where was the proof? Here's Detective Susette Canota. Cilia was set to be in charge, but where was the proof? Here's Detective Suzaku Nozai. Cilia was the one that's got no blood on her hands. She wasn't involved in any killing, actual killing. She used the people to do it for her. The judge pointed out that money had clearly been given to her or as she claimed, donated

to her. Zach Valentine and John Barnard said they thought the money they were giving her was going to an orphanage, but her accounts didn't balance out. Cecilia argued from the witness stand that this was not evidence of her involvement in the murders. When the judge pressed her for answers to why others were donating money to her, Cecilia would calmly, dispassionately reply, you have to ask them. Is the Catholic Church to blame for donations it receives from a mob boss? This was essentially Cecilia's legal argument.

It may not have been legally sound, but it was effective. It confused the question of culpability and guilt. According to Cecilia's recollection, people just did things for her. That was their choice. Another reason it was hard for prosecutors to assign blame to Cecilia was that there was no clear structure in EPD. There was no clear chain of command, no contracts between them, and no evidence of direct kill orders. And so, if someone testified that Cecilia told them to kill for her, she simply refuted it. That is, until the puzzle pieces, which had so stubbornly refused to come together, were picked up by Marcel.

You realize the mistake, mid-trial, and she decided to actually come forward with the truth. 911, what's your emergency? You shot her! Oh my God! It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. An Achiller? Who is still on the loose? My small town rocked by murder. There are certain murders I'm scared to discuss.

In the 1980s, we're in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. One after another, after another for a decade. We weren't safe anywhere. We're teenagers terrified to leave our own homes. Would we be next? Who is killing all the kids? And why?

In that moment, I saw rage. And why do you some want the town's secrets to stay dead and buried forever? I'm not sure why you're digging up all this old stuff again, but I'd be careful. Don't say I didn't warn you, Nancy. Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Sacred Skando, one of the best new podcasts of 2022, is back with a closer look at the darkness surrounding mega church La Luz del Mundo and its leader, Nasson Joaquin Garcia. They believe that he was Jesus Christ on Earth. It wasn't even so much that he liked sex.

He wanted something to pray. It's the largest cult in the world that no one has ever heard of. For three generations, the Luz del Mundo had an incredible control on his community that began in Mexico and then grew across the United States. Until one day.

A day of reckoning for the man whose millions of followers called him the Apostle. Their leader was arrested and survivors began to speak out about the sexual abuse, the murder and corruption. This is just a business and their product are people. They want to know that they will kill you. Listen to all episodes now on the I Heart Rainy Up, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts. When Marcel Stein took the witness stand in May of 2019, she laid the pieces of the puzzle out for the courtroom, with the breathless ease of someone who'd seen it all.

Before she was supposed to testify, a stepmother phone said that, myself wanted to change a plea, and I said no, it's too late now to change a plea. The only thing she can do now is go and tell the truth. She painted a clear picture for the judge. It was a remarkable moment in the proceedings. I don't want to call it a testimony because it wasn't really a testimony, it wasn't planned, it wasn't a confession, a formal confession. She just decided she's going to tell the court now what she knows. Once again observing, Yana Marx noticed a change in Marcel as she mustered up the courage

to speak her truth in front of the judge. I remember two, three days prior to that, she suddenly started to apply some makeup. Suddenly, this little girl with the big eyes, the scared eyes, scared of Cecilia, definitely scared of her mother, evolved into a woman making up her own mind. During Marcel's riveting speech, her brilliant mind was unfolded to play. She tried to play the child card to get a list of sentence, but the judge didn't fall for that because when she started fighting with her own advocate in

court in front of the judge and, and telling the Jads what the advocate was supposed to do, the advocate saw that this school is very, very clever. By advocate, Ben means Marcel's lawyer. Not to be confused with Rosalindic NAB, the child advocate we've been hearing from. It was clear Marcel had read up on the law and knew her rights. It was quite difficult to convince the judge that this was someone with a high IQ, but very low EQ.

IQ, being logistic intelligence and problem-solving, and EQ, referring to emotional awareness, being able to identify, evaluate, express and control emotions. And... That she really was emotionally manipulated and that she really believed in this astral travel and everything that Cecilia had told her. And she felt as if she couldn't get away and that she was being watched. And then also doing everything that her mom wanted. The judge then had a choice.

After observing how smart she was, he could take her savvy as a sign that she might be able to work her way out of the victimization she'd suffered, or he could use it against her. He chose the latter. He claimed she had ample opportunity to reach out to an adult at school during her time spent living with Cecilia, and that she had the option to come forward as her brother had, but she chose not to. And that's why I also sent in to life imprisonment. electus perdeus was found guilty on June 3, 2019. This was an elaborate conspiracy. About six weeks later, on August 19, they were sentences. The murder of Natasha Berger, the murder of Choi Bonzaire,

the murder of Reginald Bendixson, the murder of Michaela Belentan, Peter Meyer, John Meyer, Chere Jackson, Glen McGregor, Anthony Skolfield, Kevin McGalpan, Joanna Lathachan, all the disease were innocent, and he did not deserve to die. Cecilia Stein was given 13 life sentences plus 152 years for 11 murders. Zach Valentine, eight life sentences

plus 66 years for seven murders. Marcel Stein, now 21 years old, was served seven life sentences, plus 144 years for eight murders. At the age of the day, I got 39 life sentences and more than 2,000 years in prison for these people. So while the judge took into consideration her age and all the manipulation, Marcel coming forward with the truth didn't really do her much good in terms of sentencing. After an entire life of being conditioned to not trust yourself and your own instincts,

the courage that Marcel must have had to find in herself is staggering. I do know that Miranda didn't really love her kids. You can see that from her just giving Marcel to Cecilia as some sort of prize. I asked Miranda about this, her upbringing and a relationship to her own children. Again, the noise inside the prison visiting room was so bad that this is an actor reading her response. We grew up in a generation where appearance, my appearance, never until today ever told

me that they love me, ever, or hugged me or anything like that. They would kiss you, me, I love you, buy you know, but that's it. So I think I was maybe over loving and over predictive with my children, but they knew I loved them and I was a good mother. Throughout our conversation, Miranda spoke highly of Marcel. Told me that her daughter was good and had no part in any of the crimes.

The judge honored Marcel's fear for her life and her wishes not to be anywhere near her mother in Cecilia. He sent in Marcel not to Sun City, but to a prison in Pretoria. Whether Miranda admits it or not, her self-proclaimed, affectionless upbringing has been passed down. Well, I think it's safe to say that Marcel and the Rooze experience was quite a bit more severe than Miranda's circumstances growing up. But all of this seems to be the product of a corrupt and broken system. Old antiquated traditions, ones that victimize and suppress they're dangerous. Forcing human beings into social constructs will cause them to lash out. Here is our resident scholar, Dr. Nikki Falkoff.

We could even speculate that her character as this idealized mom teacher, perfect suburban white lady, there's something fundamentally flawed in that characterization of white South African women. I mean, it's possible that her identity, rather than protecting her from this kind of manipulation, actually made her even more vulnerable to it. The longing to belong is a very basic primal impulse. One of protection and self-preservation. We need each other to survive. This was even true for the followers of Queen Havik.

Didn't feel that they belonged anyway, didn't feel wanted by society, and then they meet this woman, and she just said, you are welcome, everyone is welcome, yeah. If no one wants you, I want you. And I think that was extremely satisfying for everyone. They wanted to be part of a group.

They wanted to stay part of a group. By the time LaRue was grown, he was thoroughly conditioned to be rewarded for demonstrating brutality. The self-worth became tied to how savagely he could kill another person. You would think the one side of him would rebel and run away. But yet, it's like he surrenders, he's submergeants, you know? And he wanted to prove himself, that's why he did the murders in that way.

He wanted to show that he's worthy and it's actually sad, you know? All this is to say that it's important to consider the walls that each of us have created around our hearts and minds and who we choose to reside within them. Culture is scary, sure, but they are not all together rare or really even counter-culture when you think about it. It's right there in the word culture. It's in our nature to cultivate community. These concepts came alive in Cecilia's own story. When on the stand, she claimed

psychological and physical abuse as a child, and when my producing partner Jennifer and I went into the prison again to meet Cecilia. She elaborated. This was a moment I had been thinking about and anticipating for over two years. I have to admit, I wanted to meet Cecilia Stein. Remember, prison in South Africa differs greatly from the United States. There were no shackles, no cuffs, nothing really protecting us from the prisoners in the room.

Even Maritska described how she and the rude sneak kisses during the visiting hours when the guards turned their backs. We'll go into more detail in our bonus episode about what it was like being in Cecilia's presence. But for the moment, we'd like to just share with you some of Cecilia's reflections in an attempt to answer some questions posed at the beginning of this podcast.

What drives our inherent human need to belong to something? And how do our relationships serve to satiate this primal desire? We asked her to share her thoughts on the human condition and our need for connection. To be clear, what you're hearing this time is not an actor. This is Cecilia Stein's actual voice. I think the only people that really love you unconditionally is your children. The way they look at you, the way they trash you unconditionally, the way they would hug you and wait for you to go with them, because it is just to get to walk down a dark hallway. You know, truly feel unconditionally loved as a spy of your children. You can say your parents or whatever, but you look at some people's parents. Parents can be vindictive.

Colonel Kristell Boyzen shared this anecdote from Cecilia's childhood. What we've been told is that Cecilia was actually one of a twin, a boy twin. He died in vitro. So when she grew up, her mother blamed her for the death of her twin. So she grew up with this, I have the power to kill. I started killing when I was in my mother's womb. Growing up under such serious maternal blaming, plus whatever else might have happened to her as a young person, brought a deep distrust of others.

She shared with us a terrifying memory from when she was only 15. I was 15. Me and Michael friend at a time were at a friend of ours, brothers, 25th birthday party. About two o'clock in the morning we decided, okay, it's time for us to go and everybody was drinking so we said you know what we can we can walk on our way home we went through a shopping centers parking area the guy came looking up to us asking me for a lighter so I been down obviously going through my pockets looking for a lighter and as I looked up he was standing there with a knife so this guy is robbing us without thinking I

grabbed the blade of his knife my hand went to my, next to me I know my knife was in my hand and the next thing it was in his throat. It's hard to believe the things that Cecilia says. Still, if this first murder did in fact happen when she was 15, it looks like it created a butterfly effect that would show her just how fragile a human life is. When everything was done and he was lying in the parking lot and I'm sitting on the sidewalk, I'm looking at this guy and thinking this is impossible. It can't be that easy for a human being to die. Obviously all the emotions you go through afterwards, your body

goes into shock, your nauseous, you want to pass out, you want to throw up all at the same time, you're scared, you're confused and you realize how easy it is for someone to die, how easy it is for you to take someone's life. Based on what Cecilia shared with us about her perspective on humanity, it seems that she was, she is, bereft of hope. I personally think that humans is, I don't know, a species that does not deserve to survive. If you look at the way we act, the way we behave towards each other, I would think twice about killing a spider or something like that. A spider's day, it does its job, it doesn't judge you, it doesn't lie to you, it doesn't steal from you, it just does what it has to do,

and then goes on its merry way. In six animals, completely natural. It's humans that are unnatural. In six animals, completely natural. It's humans that are unnatural. It also seems Cecilia's longing to belong was so strong, her need for attention so robust and her sense of connection so lacking early on that she created an environment in which those around her would never leave her. A kind of emotional symbiosis to make sure they'd stick around.

In her mind, she was making them feel welcome and feeding their desire for some kind of greater purpose. She prayed on that. I think we all want to belong somewhere, you know, feel like you're part of something. Feel like you have a purpose. feel like you're part of something. Feel like you have a purpose. And Miranda learned a lot from her that you have a deep reverence for each other, even today. Miranda especially still idolizes Cecilia.

God put in my heart. God put in my heart that she loves me just as much as I love her. It's like we are twins, that type of connection, not the same person, like a soul tie. Twins, how's that for irony? Me and Miranda are close, you know? We good friends, we have a relationship where we can tell each other anything.

And you know, just by a look, look you know in what mood someone is. She's the first person I tell when something's wrong. She's an amazing person, she's really an amazing person. Marina's love perhaps went a bit further. I joke about it. I joke about it you know like I'm discovering that I'm also gay. It's a pity we couldn't have gone for each other, but it would feel like insist.

Just because I think she's the perfect person, you know? It's kind of, if we could date, that would have been the perfect other thing. But sadly, it would just be wrong. But sadly, it would just be your own. While this information does ground these two terrifying people for us, it does not by any means excuse their actions, neither exhibits a scrap of remorse. I felt this compassion with these people.

I felt very sorry for them. But what can I say? I'm not sorry that I killed them. Four years into her 13 life sentences, Cecilia still denies any involvement with the murders. I'm not a person that really regrets things easily. I regret what I put my children through. I regret the impact it has on them.

But I think I've learned a lot in that, you know? So, I don't have a lot of regrets in my life. Through everything, this case, these people, this story that has been a part of my life for over three years, I keep coming back to this hard but simple truth. That good people can do horrible things, and that bad people are capable of good. That's not to oversimplify the lives of the victims and their families. The sheer destruction that Cecilia Stein

and electus per day has caused is staggering. But the fact remains, we all have a dark side. Two wolves that live inside each of us, whichever one we feed takes over. The choice is ours. We get to choose how far we'll go for belonging. To quote the great Joan Didian, we tell ourselves stories in order to live. Cecilia Stein told her follower stories in order to kill.

She fed them these stories in order to shroud them in a sense of purpose. She used these stories to satiate the primal need to belong. Stories have power. They feed the wolf. They are the way we navigate our world. So I suppose this forces the question. So I suppose this forces the question, what stories are you telling yourself? Thank you all for joining us on this adventure. It has truly been an honor to be your host. Be good to each other and yourselves. Join us for our bonus episode. You'll hear more unbelievably candid moments with Cecilia Stein herself and an update on the current investigation against the corrupt cops, as well as behind-the-scenes conversations

about our adventures in South Africa. Queen Havoc in her murder cult is a production of School of Humans and I Heart podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and created by me, Kurt Kubicek, produced and written by Jennifer Tachini, Julia Kriskow, and Kurt Kubicek. Lead producer is Julia Kriskow. Story editor is Zaryn Bernett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock. Production Manager is Daisy Church.

Original music composed by Claire Campbell. Editing, Sound Design, and Scoring by Jesse Nicewanger. Additional Editing by Miranda Hawkins. Associate producers are Dashin Moodley and Jameen Kracher. Additional Producing by Ben Melman, FACCHECKING by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson, Clay Hillenberg, and Josh Hook.

Rindestine was read by Angelique Pretorias. Rhea Grunovald's testimony is read by Madeline Page. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, LC Crowley, Brandon Barr, Jennifer Keeney, and Kurt Kubicek. We want to thank all of those who so generously welcomed us in South Africa and shared their stories. We're incredibly grateful to you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic these events are

for the victims and their families. Please respect their privacy. If you or someone you know has been affected by cold behaviors, there are resources available, including Voices for Dignity at ChristineMurie.com. The True Crime Podcast, Sacred Scandal, returns for a second season to investigate alleged sexual abuse at Mexico's La Luz del Mundo Mega Church. Journalist Robert Garza explores survivor stories of pure evil experiences at the hands of a self-proclaimed apostle who is now behind bars. I remember as a little girl being groomed to be his concubine,

that's how I was raised. It is not wrong if you take your clothes off for the impossible. Listen to Sacred Scandal on the IHR Radio App Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 911, what's your emergency? You should have. It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. And a killer who is still on the loose.

In the 1980s, we were in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. We weren't safe anywhere. Would we be next? It was getting harder and harder to live in Mompine. Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Facing Evil is back and we're bringing you conversations that matter. I can't tell you how many times she had said he's going to kill me. I will never escape him, he will find me and he will kill me. We're talking with experts and change makers devoted to making a difference in these tragic true crime stories.

Our system failed us. We need to make sure that that does not happen again. Listen to Facing Evil on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.