Red Scare - Donda Nekrasova

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

The ladies review Kanye's Donda back to back with Drake's Certified Lover Boy. Plus, we cover the Texas abortion law, the developing ivermectin discourse, and the

Okay, I'm recording. And we're back. We're back. Finally. Sheepish. Sheepishly. We're back. Tales between our legs. Sorry. It's okay. People are allowed to take a break from podcasting from their children. Yeah, yeah, every once in a while. We've been on a good street. Yeah. The episodes have been strong. Yeah. They're often not they're not my fave when they're remote. You know, yeah, I don't like doing remote. It feels because we have clinical and hollow. And we have so many technical problems, you know. Yeah. And also, you know, it's, it's not my fault. It was out of my control. Eli's mom booked this family vacation like months in advance. So there was nothing I could do about it. Of course. You had to

take the baby to the coast. Yeah. You had it looked really great. Yeah. And it was your birthday recently too. Yeah. Also, I don't know why they call it the Cape and not the cod because the cod is so much more like comical and slapstick. Well, that's probably why it makes they call it the Cape because it sounds more refined. Yeah. And like JFK Junior ish, but the cod sounds like you like a slippery fish is just like the cod, the cod. Yeah. Just like falling out of your hands or something. Yeah. I love the cod. That's what I that's what I call it naturally. Yeah, it's cool. Had you ever been before? No. So this was nice. It was like really beautiful. There's a lot of like little like whole. Yeah. And there's

a lot of like wholesome, happy families strolling around. Sounds really nice. And it also like feels like COVID doesn't exist. Yeah. Which is also nice. Yeah. Definitely. I was just like, then I came back to New York and immediately saw like a shoe and a great drug dealers hanging out outside. Well, I was like, this sucks. I don't even do this. Well, you could live in a better neighborhood. I could. Yeah. But I like it here. Yeah. But I'm a cheapskate. Yeah. And and it's all happening. Like a stick in the mud and I like don't want to leave this neighborhood because the apartment's nice. I love your apartment and it's so hard to move. Yeah. Especially the baby going on vacation of the baby sucks ass. Let me tell

you. Really? Yeah. I reconsidered my whole pro life stance. You have to pack like three times as much shit because you have to like diaper. Yeah. You have to like contingency plan everything. Right. Right. Right. Anyway, how was how was Lenny on the trip? He's fine. He's like, um, an incredibly, uh, well behaved and gregarious baby and everybody loves him and, and stares at him and wants to like talk to him. He's such a pimp. Yeah. He's, he's a player. He's the poop. Um, did he listen to Donda? He did. We listened to, um, what's Drake's album called certified lover boy and Donda driving around the Cod for podcast prep. Yeah. Which was cool. I couldn't really totally make it through certified lover boy,

which is all mean either as long as Donda and no one's talking about how Drake's album is. I know. Anyway, it's 126 versus 180. Right. 140. Oh, okay. 140. Kanye's it or 140. It's like almost two hours. Yeah. And Drake's album is like hour and a half. Yeah. And no, that's not like a point of contention. No, no, no, no. It's so weird. I, this is, this is bigger for me than the, the vaccines versus ivermectin thing. The way that, that Kanye is smeared in the media while Drake is celebrated, but without any particular enthusiasm or fanfare. It's all extremely vague. Yeah. Whereas Kanye is incredibly precise. And did I mean, reviews started coming out about Donda so quickly. Yeah. That were like negative or like maligning

him as having like lost his touch or like being reactionary or whatever. But it was like the album is so long. You, how could you even had time to really process it? You should listen to it in good faith. And then the Taliban banned it. And they were like, you can't play Donda in the streets. Just kidding. They banned all music. They banned all music. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was almost like the, you know, it's like, um, when Trump won the presidency and the New York times had a, a Hillary victory article ready and waiting and they didn't get to drop it. It's almost like they had filed their little Kanye obituaries ahead of time. Exactly. But it's like the most popular record. It doesn't

even matter. And he's made tons and tons of money. Oh, really? Listening parties. And it's like, yeah, it's, well, remember when the listening parties were happening and all the people like in the press, or I saw some people in the press like speculating like, this is all a ruse. This album is never going to come out. He doesn't even have a date. He's just grifting or whatever. Yeah. I'm so sure. Anyway, so you, your impressions? I'm loved on. I, yeah, I've been listening to it a lot. Um, it's maybe my fave since Yeezus. Yeah. Which I liked more than Pablo though I did. I mean, I, I, I liked Jesus as king. I liked the last one. I like kind of everything Kanye

does because I respect him as, as an artist. Yeah. As a strong black man doing his thing. And I think it has, I think it has a lot of immediacy. Yeah. And I think, well, so I think like, I was thinking about like, as how it's like a tribute to his mother Donda and sort of the alchemical like power of not only like, well, obviously it opens with that track like her name. How about that intro track? It sounds like, um, Donda Donda Donda Donda Donda Donda Donda Donda Donda. He's like at lunch. But, um, that aside, even like calling the album Donda and then having everyone listen to it and talk about it and say Donda constantly, I think does pay a kind of like mystical tribute

to his mom in this beautiful way. Like I think, I don't know. He has a lot of clarity. I think he is mentally ill, but I think what he has to say is really important. I mean, mentally ill people are often the best interpreters of reality because they're operating on a different plane or wavelength than the rest of us. And they have that third eye and they see shit that's going on that other people either don't notice or suppress. Exactly. So in these twisted times, why shouldn't we be celebrating our most twisted genius Kanye West? Well, yeah. And also like the, the, the kind of, um, uh, what would you call it? Like the setup of the argument, the formulation of the argument I've always found really kind

of like pointless and hollow also where people are like, is he a brilliant genius or an empty provocateur? And it's like, well, obviously he's a little bit of both. And that's the wrong, you know, debate to have. You have to question the premise of that setup. I don't think Donda is like a masterpiece in the, in the traditional sense, but I think with the listening parties and everything, like refining it kind of in public and then releasing it with all these like extra bonus tracks and everything, it feels very, and when you listen, when I listen to it, it feels very like imminent, like emerging kind of still, like it's not, it's almost unfair to even like talk about it as an album because

you have to talk about the entire like operatic spectacle that like Kanye has built up around it. And I think that that on its own is just incredibly inspiring and that there's like a, I think devotion to vision is so rare that when we see it, we should be so grateful. Yeah. Well, yeah, like Mike White, I like, I started watching in light and I think I mentioned it last episode and I was like, well, this guy has a vision. Yeah. And he's basically interested in like mundanity and not grandiosity, but he has a very concrete distinct vision that like is commendable. Yeah.

Because everything now, like we've said a million times before is like designed by committee and it's phoned in, you hire like 50 Swedish producers. Exactly. And like 46 of them have sexual assault raps and they do their thing and then They like engineer something to like basically be like mind control on the radio. Yeah. And that's why you hate so much of what you hear initially and then grow to like it. Yeah. Which again, like the immediacy of Donda for me, not like every single song, but there are legitimate like bangers on it. Sorry. Yeah. And guess who's going to jail tonight? I like that part about, you know, that Adam's not a black man because a black man would

never share his rib with anyone. Yeah, there's a lot of good that J. Electronica verse on Jesus Lord, where he talks about like what Bush did to Rwanda, like Clinton's the Dehati and he's like, I'm like reading the lyrics, like Googling stuff. I'm like, I don't because he's like a nation of Islam guy. I'm like, wow. When the deers actually there is an upcoming randomly controlled ivermectin trial. When the dear J confirmed Ezekiel's wheel, like that's like crazy, like hotep stuff. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah. It's so sick. It brought me back to like the kind of apogee of nineties rap when they would all reference five percenters like that kind of vibe. And

like, I don't know, just like you contrast it to Drake's album, which I also like admittedly could not get through. I want it. I like Drake is the thing is I'm not like invested in their like weird fake beef. I didn't even know they had a weird fake beef. Allegedly. Yeah. There's like, that's why the release schedules were so or timed the way that they kind of were. I heard that Connie was like waiting for Drake to drop his so he could drop Donda and kind of like overshadow it. I see. Let's sorry, Mia Farrow of him. Well, he's BPD. Yeah. And a Gemini. And a Gemini, which makes him all the better of an artist. Yeah. But I think I having just said that I don't I'm not invested in the beef. I do think that Connie did kind

of get in Drake's head. And that's why Drake did that. Like Damien Hearst, like album cover with the stupid emojis. Yeah. He was trying. I don't know. He's Drake, I think is confused. He's kind of lost the plot. And I love Drake. I've loved a lot of his albums. He hasn't really had a hit in a while. But I don't think he's an artist. I think he's an actor. And I think that really sums up a lot of like why like certified lover play kind of falls short. Yeah, little chintzy and a little like shallow. It's just numb, bloodless. Yeah. It's like music that's unfit to be the soundtrack at a Ritzia when Wow, some not even a knifing and manipulative shop girls are trying to get you to drop like $1,500 on like pleather

shorts. They're so vicious in there. Yeah, I hate them. I will still I will still go up and there I will use the gift card that you got me for my birthday and I will be buying some more kind of polo collar style. Fuckboy wears not the pleather collection. But yeah, this Drake is what plays at Ritzia, right? Because they're both Canadian lesser Drake's. Yeah, it does feel Canadian. Yeah. God, Ritzia. It's that dressing room. And I know the last time I was there, I was like, this is sadistic. That's how you beat Taliban. You make them try clothing. So for those who don't go to a Ritzia, which is most people, which is most people, I guess, um, they don't have mirrors in the dressing rooms and you have to come

out to use a communal mirror. And when you do these shop girls attack you, yeah, they bully you and talk about how cute you look and stuff and talk to you very aggressively. So much so that you want to just like buy something to get them to fucking stop talking to you. Yeah, it's like Chinese water torture. It's it emotional labor camp. Yeah, it is. It's like really like waterboarding. They're trying to get you to confess, but in this case to buy something. And it and I, you know, my sister, for instance, saw a girl break down in tears because she had spent $1,500 because she was trying to like get these horrible hawkish harpies off her back. And they always, um, compliment you with like, um, an edge

of malice, you know, nice tote bag, nice haircut. I love your baby. Where'd you get him from? And it's always like grinding. You're doing like the voice that people do when they make fun of us. Yeah, totally. I'm like, that sounds that sounds familiar. Yeah, Drake certified lover boy is is a Ritzia core. It is. Yeah. I don't even have much really to say about it obviously. Oh, it's just so like droning and dirgy and complaining about nothing is nothing to complain about as anxiety. And yeah, also like, well, this whole podcast is kind of maternity themed because Donda made Kanye and album to his mom. True. Drake's got these, these preggoes

pregnant, pregnant emojis on his album cover. So fucking ugly and stupid. It's yeah, it I mean, also, there's something distasteful about Drake getting like Damien Hurst design a cover of like pregnant girl emojis. When he spent months, if not years, I think denying his parentage of this child that he has with like this French like booty model girl. Yeah. And there are some nods on the album about how they're like great co-parents and they found a way and whatever. And it's like, you're a skittish and squeamish piece of shit who wasn't going to accept that child until the last moment when it became impossible not to and like bad for optics. Exactly. You wormy little Weasley piece of shit.

Kanye loves his family. Yeah, that's true. The man has four kids. Yeah, four. Yeah. Northy. Oh yeah, I wonder who she's doing on the album. He says all she wants is Nikes. That's cute. That's not that cute. It's crazy how how big Northy and Mason are. They're like practically teens. I know we've really watched them grow up before. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I brought this us weekly over that I bought at CVS. Wait, I thought it was us weekly shit. What did I say? US weekly. Oh, I think it's us because it's a lower case us. Oh yeah. Okay. Us as in like, that's why stars, they're just like us. Yeah. Is what is their kind of shtick. Um, but I was, and there's no point in even really like, it's

a, so there's a picture of cam on the cover and it's trapped in Kanye's hell, why cam can't break free. Um, but it made me think about just Kanye's whole spectacle and how like, yeah, he married this reality TV star and in generating his own like spectacle, he's like subverted. Like no one cares about like tabloid narratives. Right. No one is buying that like Kim is trapped in hell or like whatever story they're like trying to tell you. It's like, it's so irrelevant at the end of the day because the story that Kanye tells through like Donda is so much more like gripping and interesting and like vital. Yeah. Then like us weekly. And you can, and then, you know, the album goes straight to

the source and people debate it and like Twitter and Instagram or whatever. Exactly. So you don't really need the tabs. Um, yeah. And it's interesting. I mean, I think the other thing with Kanye is that he's really like the only black man who it's okay for white journalists to beat up on because he was MAGA because he was MAGA and he refuses to play their idea of an activist. He's not a part of the activist class. Sure. He's not out here like BLM though he is like a prison abolitionist. Yeah. But he doesn't map neatly onto the coordinates of what white liberals think a black man should be. Yeah. And so he's the exception to the rule. And instead of a kind of tiptoeing, walking around on eggshells

around his mental illness, they can mock it. Yeah. Which is frankly white supremacist. Frankly, it is. I'm just saying. Um, and Drake is not even a black man. He's very Jewish thrown through. I looked up some pics of Drake's mom. Yeah. She's an old white Jewish lady. Yeah. She's like the classic. Sandy type of, um, educator yoga drop Sandy. Sandy with an eye. Yeah. I don't want to hear that album. No. I'm sure she's a really nice lady. Yeah. She seems she seems like a nice, uh, kind of hands on. I wonder social justice minded woman. There's something like missing and Drake that I think has to do with his life, his soul, child acting. Oh yeah. I always forget he was undergrossed. That's why I say

he's not an artist. He's an actor. Like he has, there's like something missing. Yeah. And it's interesting that they, they both had, um, Jay-Z on who spent the last 10 years like larping as Bosquiat. Did you see their Tiffany blue boss? Yeah. It was so embarrassing in bed. I mean, Bosquiat has been so like, I don't know, defiled already. It's like they wouldn't surprise me. But it's just Jay-Z with a Bosquiat hair, which I find very kind of distasteful and yeah, juvenile. Yeah. Bosquiat was like 25. He had that hair and also like really hot and yeah, Jay-Z's old goofy looking ass. It's going to come out with Bosquiat hair at like what held to see like 43, 45. Probably. Yeah. Maybe older.

Maybe even older. Yeah. Um, and it's funny. Yeah. And I was noticing how all the, um, the press had to do the obligatory line about how, um, Kanye brought out the homophobic, the baby and sexual assaulter Marilyn Manson. Um, and people, people were making a lot of noise about Marilyn Manson, like wisely transitioning into working with rappers or whatever. Oh Jesus. Yeah. That's so gay that he would have Bosquiat hair at 51. Anyway. Um, but yeah, I think like at that level of like fame, you just don't have a lot of friends, especially if you're, if you're like a man. So it makes sense that like Kanye and Marilyn Manson would hang out. I mean, I doubt they even hang out. Kanye kind of like accessorizes with like

delegates. With his like, but I could see actually Kanye like calling people to chat. Yeah. To probably like mega-liminetically like monologue about like what he has going on. He definitely doesn't like, I don't even really get the feeling that he probably respects Marilyn Manson that much. He's just trying to make, uh, you know, there's a theme of like redemption and like salvation on the album. So he's like, not like the most clever maneuver, but whatever, but it detracts a little bit from how DaBaby who actually did nothing wrong, you know, it's, it seemed, I don't know, not that thought out to like to pair them specifically. Yeah. But it's fine. It's not that controversial. It just,

it's weird that every review I read had to, you know, get that out of the way. Of course. Yeah. Which is also like, again, these music critics are unfit to appraise Kanye's work, even though this is by far not his best album because they are so contemptuous of, of art. Exactly. Who the hell do they think they are? They've never done anything good. Yeah. They've never even had in Wesley Morris or everything. I can't think of a single music critic I respect. Yeah. I have to, I, I mean, I don't really read music press unless we're talking about music, but I don't even listen to new music really, besides like Kanye. Yeah. But like, it's just like, you know, these people really are like so kind of unimaginative and contemptuous.

It's crazy that they want to do this job because it seems profoundly unenjoyable for them. I know. And they seem like they don't even make that much money. Yeah. There's no way that they, so what are they really on about? The other thing that I would say to Kanye's credit is that while this is by far not my favorite Kanye album, and, you know, I like Kanye, I think that he, he is, he does have certain strokes of genius. And I'm not interested in adjudicating whether he is or isn't a genius, but rap is a young man's game. It's very hard to remain cool and relevant as a rapper, even if you can stay good. Yeah, sure. So I think by delegating and accessorizing with other guys, he bypasses that because you get like a more kind of rangey conceptual record.

Yeah, totally. That showcases other people's talent. Like you, he's basically creative directing or project managing. Yeah. He's like, yeah. The producer as director, as a tour as artist. Yeah. Kind of what his mission is, I think. Yeah. And so he can, like, there's something, you know, deeply embarrassing about Jay-Z being 51 and ad-libbing little shitty like Xanax rap versus. Sure. Yeah. But Kanye doesn't do that. No. He's like, I don't know, thinking about it. Yeah, it is more like, that's why he's not really like a collaborator. I think he's sort of like an extractor and like a parasite. Like a parasite, exactly. In a way. Yeah. But the synthesis that he does with like what he's able to take and what he's like, his ambitions for what he wants to do

and then the way that he executes them, I feel like are like ultimately to me the measure of like a successful artist, I guess. Yeah, he's an artist. You can't take that away from him. I mean, Gemini automatically equals artists to me. Like Drake, I don't think of as an artist. So when he came out on those like early Little Wayne mixtapes, he was really good. He's really good. No, he's totally competent. Yeah. He's not like a Bip. He can rap. He's had a ton of amazing songs. Yeah. But he is, he is, yeah, I guess, like more of an interpreter than an artist, though it's a shame also to see him like, I just, I feel like his album was so weak and unmemorable. I know. And I'm sure like people are going to listen to it and love it because it's all we've got. Well, they're

going to play it on the radio so long that we're going to form like, you know, mind control attachment to it. Yeah, that's true. That's the only thing. That's how they get you know. Yeah. Basically. What else? The Guardian wrote that review that you sent me. That was like, it was kind of woke and it mentioned the baby and Marilyn Manson thing, but it got out of the way right away. And it almost had this like Straussian thing where it was saying like there was a sub text and it was saying it like between the lines. Which one was that? It was with the eventual release of Donda named after West's English professor mother who died in 2007. There's a nagging sense. The spectacle has overshadowed the actual music with this bloated 108 minute album. Rarely sure of

what it's trying to say. Wait, so it's 108 minutes. No, that's with 108. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So basically the, this idea that the spectacle has overshadowed the music is not entirely wrong, but he says it in a kind of like negative pejorative way, but it's just like the music is integrated into the larger spectacle. It's a gesamtkunstwerk. Exactly. It's hence all the immersive. It's not overshadowing it because it's all part of it. It's like, it really is like emerging. It's like imminent. Yeah. Whereas music is Drake's soul medium and he can't even do that well at this point. Yeah. I thought that way too sexy sample was really cringe. Yeah. Like felt really bad. Yeah. Like not cool. Yeah. It's yeah. We're not there yet. Like we're not repurposing.

I'm too sexy for my shirt. Yeah. Maybe we'll be never well. No, I don't think we should. I think that should be consigned to the dustbin of like pop curiosity or whatever. And that's not a thing we have to revisit. No. At least it will Drake. Yeah. I mean, the thing is like both of them at this point are like too big to fail. So I guess we have to either way are going to be hearing more from both of them. For sure. I hope Drake. Yeah. My other question is, is it true that Kim and Kanye renewed their vows or is that I think it was a performer performance. She showed up. She showed up to the third listening party in that like Balenciaga burka dress. She should just wear kind of was but whatever.

I like his austere. He has like very Taliban aesthetics. Kanye, he always has. I mean, that's not like, he hasn't always, but now he does. He has for a while. The shutter shades are though kind of, yeah, also evocative of a burka, the shutter shades. Oh, I thought you were going to save mental illness. Well, that too. Yeah. But he's, yeah, he's driven by taste. Yeah. And he's like uncompromising. Yeah. For himself, you know, which is all that really, really counts in this department. He's like Mishima. He's gay. He's aesthetically exacting. Has a wide rib cage. He's brutal. Long arms. He failed attempt to seize political power. Uh-huh. When you ran for president. Oh, right. Great. Great. Side by side. Has he ever,

he's never attempted suicide. There's still lots of time. He probably has attempted suicide, but Mishima really succeeded. Yeah. Well, those Japanese don't fuck around. I wonder if Kanye has, I mean, he alludes to being suicidal, certainly. I think if he was gonna, gonna do it, he would do it really well. Yeah. I think he could pull it off. He's maybe too, like, vain and narcissistic to, to, to like commit. Yeah. But Japanese people live by a code that transcends their personal vanity and narcissism. I don't know how it is now, but back when he was doing it. Junior Watanabe on my writ. That's not my favorite song, but yeah, I was like, cool. The other thing, the thing that I would say, like, not in defense of Kanye is that

he is so rich and famous and so crazy that he lives in like a prison of his own making surrounded by yes men. So there are no external constraints imposed on him because his mother's dead, so she can't force him into conservatorship. So he's kind of on his own. Yeah. And with his demons. Yeah. And there are no limits or constraints. Well, he doesn't need more battles because he's already fighting the demons in his brain. Yeah. His diseased brain. So he really could use an editor, but I don't think he trusts anyone to be his editor. I think that yeah, I don't think it's a masterpiece. As I said, I think like there will be more to come. And this will be like an important album kind of on to his in the ultimate trajectory of his like career. I think he's like

really on to something. Yeah. Well, he's he's on to even if it's on a performative level, which I actually don't think he it is. I believe that he he believes he believes, but but he's like plugged into the Christian tradition. Hell yeah, which is like unbeatable. Yeah. I'm not making a case for religion, but but being plugged into something greater than yourself is is important. Well, every pro athlete believes in God, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, probably, which is why they were able to achieve those great heights of athleticism. Exactly. Because they have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. Musicians, great musicians should have like a relationship with God. Yeah, I guess I would second that. Do you think Liam Gallagher has a relationship with

God? Well, he's not a great musician. He's just a great personality charismatic person. Um, I wonder if Charlie Watts had a relationship with God. Uh, what else was I going to say? Drake seems a little godless. Well, yeah, he's like a classic millennial neurotic, Jewish neurotic to boot. Yeah, he seems kind of like sexually deranged also. He's like the Hassan piker of rap. They have a similar aesthetic, which is like Ontario Muslim squeaky clean, like very clean lines. Yeah, the the chin strap. Yeah, exactly, which I've never liked that look. It's a little too aggressive. And yeah, I like the Kanye, like olive drab post apocalyptic, like, yeah, Mad Max black people. Exactly. Exactly. He invented that.

I feel like Tupac and Dr. Dre invented it in California love, but he really improved upon it. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. I'm just happy. Yeah. George Floyd, he's underdog. Yeah, me too. Let the man work. Yeah, a man needs a purpose. But Kanye, Kanye's like a lot of figures now, much like Joe Rogan or Alex Jones, who are kind of exist independently outside of the media and are kind of excommunicated by the institutions essentially. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. You should start a substack. He should release his next album on substack like Salman Rushdie's like releasing a book on substack. Wait, for real? Yeah, apparently he said he was like bypassing the traditional publishing. I mean, I was like, okay, it works.

It works. Yeah. Yeah. Fitting broke. Don't fix it. We really know about that life. In the substack life. Yeah. Anyway, do you have any other thoughts on Amazon? No, I like that you have an Amazon notepad. Yeah, I took it from the office to write my Donda notes on. Yeah, I think that's it. We can move on to the abortion ban. Okay, down the docket. Did you notice how did you read any articles about how the Supreme Court has shadow dockets? No, they were kept using this term shadow docket. Yeah. In like some pieces I write about how the Supreme Court refused to like reverse the Texas abortion ban or whatever. But I was like, oh my god, docket. I know a thing or two about that. So yeah, so they passed a law in Texas that

effectively bans abortions up to past the six week mark, which is allegedly when like a fetus has like a heartbeat. Yeah, it's when you can first detect a heartbeat. Okay. But most women obviously don't even so know they're pregnant. Right. Kind of late until they're eight weeks. Yeah. That seems to be the standard when you find out. But the way that this law works is that it like deputizes private citizens and allows them to sue doctors abortion practitioner anyone who aids and abets in or providing for abortion. They can sue them and recover legal fees and win up to like $10,000. Yes. So it gives them a financial incentive to snitch. Exactly. Basically, which is super evil. Well, it's confusing. I think it's designed as a strategic

innovation to to get around like the constitutionality. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And I think it's designed because basically, the legislators who wrote this law are not liable in enforcing it, they can't enforce it. So you can't sue any it's very hard to say who you're going to sue. So basically, that way they can strategically get around people suing unless you you know, you can bring a charge I guess that of its unconstitutionality that would force it to the higher court. But then I think that that would open up a Pandora's box that would allow you to challenge Roe v Wade. Interesting. And basically, yeah, well, my understanding is that that well, to win a civil suit, right? Mm hmm. You have to show damages if to show that you've

been like damaged by someone performing an abortion to win a civil suit. And in the case of anyone, I think the first like case of this would be thrown out of court on the grounds of it not being constitutional, though, the so then they would have to countersue and try and take it to like a higher court. Yeah. Well, I think it so basically, I guess there have been other laws like this that have been struck down in other states. But what it is, it creates this kind of strategic innovation in the culture war in like this bloody partisan battle. Yeah, because of course, and it happens, of course, at like the expense of the most vulnerable, vulnerable, whatever people of color. And yeah, so I don't know much about this. But yeah, if you bring the, you know,

I don't know anything about the constitutional judge in Texas has already granted Planned Parenthood a restraining order against this like vigilante pro life group is basically like facilitates these that would facilitate these lawsuits and would ostensibly bring a lawsuit against that would go around. So they've already been like thwarted by this restraining order that was offered. I mean, like when these cases go to the courts, I think not only will people not be punished for performing abortions are forced to like pay money. Also, you see like, bumble setting up a legal fund and like lift an Uber chipping in to pay like legal defense fees and like all of these corporations,

their counter what balancing. Yeah, they get to do this like twisted corporate virtue signal. And it's the companies that are the most responsible for like exploiting, demoralizing and punishing people. Yeah, then like and making it impossible to have a system where abortion is a legitimate choice because it's the only rational choice because that people are too precarious to Well, exactly. You have the children in the first place. The the Supreme Court allowed it to stand because as it's written, they don't quite know what to do with it. And they they didn't rule and it's constitutionality, though, I guess a challenge to its constitutionality could come in the future. And basically, they're saying that they're not adjudicating the constitutionality of it because

there's nobody to adjudicate essentially, because the the legislators the legislators have washed their hands. Yeah, because the state isn't responsible for enforcing the law for the enforcement. Yeah. And I think just technically, I think that the law is very diabolical. It is. It's on one hand, it's a right wing provocation to the left. Yeah, to react and take the bait. And I think, you know, on a practical level, it exists to just shut down abortion clinics preempt who are, you know, so scared of being sued that they will shut down abortion activities after six weeks and will turn people away. Right. So yeah, and it's I've seen it described as like, you know, a stop gap measure, essentially, that will force, well, it'll force eventually the hand

or it'll force the issue of examining the constitutionality of Roe v. Wade, which was the conversation that was happening, you know, way back when when like Kavanaugh was being confirmed and when Coney Barrett was being confirmed when when Trump was appointing these conservative justices to the Supreme Court. And a lot of people were talking about the anxiously that this might pose a threat to Roe v. Wade. Yeah. And I think it's also scary because it really it really codifies what we've been living on there for many years now, which is like snitching culture. Yeah, it's really bleak, you know, people are referring to it as like a bounty. Yeah. But I think what that confuses is that they have to win the case. Oh, they do. Okay. Yeah, you don't just

get $10,000 for snitching on an on an abortion provider, you have to sue them so you can but do you have to win or do you have to I understand like you don't get $10,000 like a reward for for merely snitching, but you have to bring suit against them. It's a civil suit. You're suing them as a private citizen for damages. Okay. So you are. Yeah, they have to pay you. Yeah. Once you win a suit. And if you're the plaintiff, I guess the other scary thing is as a private citizen who's suing, you don't have to be associated with technically legally know, but that would also make it very difficult for you to win a suit. Right. Like I'm hard pressed and maybe I'm just completely confused and misunderstanding, but I think I'm like this

is my grasp on it is yeah, that there it's not as if like, yeah, someone who's like in a corner is going to like sue an abortion doctor to reap their cash reward. It's like, it's going to be these like pro-life organizations and the individuals within them to have like the time and the resources to invest in these like lawsuits basically. And that's all, you know, if and when that does happen, it will be like among like by partisan partisan lines. Yeah, like pro-life vigilante orgs. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, and I think like it's interesting. Yeah, because I've seen a lot of people characterize it as like the sort of right-wing provocation to the left. And when I say left in this context, I mean, like the broad left like leftists and

liberals who are all generally pro-choice. I mean, it's very interesting because of course, it's all happening in the state of Texas, which is like the original battleground of Roe V. Wade, where this woman Norma McCorvey, a.k.a. Jane Roe was bamboozled by these feminist lawyers. I mean, that story, you know, the story, it's like a little crazy that I don't know, it's I don't know if it's like conspiratorial or collusory, but it does create like yet a new front here in this ongoing like partisan culture war that's been raging forever. Yeah. And the people most affected by it goes without saying like always like real marginalized people who like for whom an abortion is like, I mean,

liberal feminist offals, whatever, like the media class that's the most that's like the loudest about this are all, you know, people who could easily travel to get an abortion somewhere else. Like for a lot of poor people, abortions are effectively illegal because they can't afford them to begin with. That's like like really, really poor people. Like that's like how cycles of poverty perpetuate. And but all of that is like much like the women and children in like Afghanistan become just sort of like a pretense for like liberal handmaid's tale, fantasy, hysterical disturbance. Yeah. And I think like political theatrics in as much as the right continues to provoke the left, the left never fails to take the bait. And instead of meeting the right with

science and reason and articulating a good argument for why abortion should exist, in spite of its glaring and unavoidable ethical problems, the left doubles down on this kind of like scientific obstructionism, where now the, you know, hot new spurred out talking point as I tweeted earlier is, well, actually at six weeks, the heartbeat you hear is not technically a real heartbeat because the valves and the ventricles aren't yet formed. It's just like cells rubbing together to produce electricity or whatever. And that then begs the question that we've been asking since the dawn of this fight, which is like, when does life begin? Well, religious people and secular people will always have different ideas of that and they will never see eye to eye. And it seems

like a stupid way to argue because in that argument at the end of the day, I'm sorry, but when you make that argument, I think any honest person there and I'm pro-choice, you have to settle on the pro-life end of it because we don't know and we cannot scientifically prove. And to say that it's six weeks, it's not a real heartbeat, but at 10 weeks is a real heartbeat. Yeah, that's that's irrelevant. But that's sophistry. Life clearly begins at conception philosophically, not even like theologically, it's like once you're pregnant, you have the potential to bear life. Yeah. And terminating a pregnancy is ceasing that life, preventing it from existing. Yeah, but where life starts is to me kind of irrelevant in this case, because we do have a separation of

church and state in America. So the ethical components of abortion are like, are bigger than just like, is it or isn't murder? Like, yeah, it is taking a life. Well, I would put it this way, I would put it this way, you know, it is murder. It is murder. And it's not murder. Well, no, no, I will, as my mother says, you know, as many mothers have said to their children, I brought you into this world and I alone can take you out of it. It's a special case of murder in fantasy. Yeah. Yeah. And like, it is a special class of exceptionary murder. Well, in that way, it's not, that's why I would be hesitant to call it murder. Yeah, I'm being hyperbolic and dramatic. Yeah. You could even make the case that like, the death penalty isn't

murder, you know. Well, it is, but it's like murder by state. And that exonerates anyone, person of liability, which is also why it's so evil and depraved. In the case of infanticide, then the mother should be sort of like a state like functuary who has the right to, and thus, it is not like murder. Yeah, but but it is ending a life. I'm being, you know, I'm like splitting hairs here, but yeah, but this is, this is what drives me nuts about the left. Instead of saying like, if you have the right to end a life, it's not murder. Well, and religious people will say, yeah, then no one has the right to end a life except for God. But when we're talking about like health policies in the United States, which is a secular nation,

that shouldn't really enter into the conversation. But what I'm saying is that the right is counting on the left to be callous, to be flippant, to be mechanical and bloodless about this issue, to split hairs pedantically. And every time that's what they do, instead of saying like, yeah, we acknowledge because they're afraid that if they acknowledge that abortion is an ethical stain on your soul, which it is at any point in time, they feel that they're going to lose the argument. And I actually agree with Pogli, I think it makes your argument stronger. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And like, you know, well, I've talked about this view, I've had two abortions, I had one when I was 23, and I had one when I was 33, when I immediately got knocked up by Eli after meeting

him. And I regret them every day. I'm not being hyperbolic here. I really do live with a really deep seated sense of regret, remorse, shame and self-hatred for that act. And it's something that I will go to the grave with. And it's something that's philosophically, and existential, even more thorny, because if I hadn't had those abortions, I wouldn't have my son now. Sure. And, you know, that's a mind fuck. And that's something that I have to negotiate privately with myself is what I'm saying. And a lot of women do. But what I find so repulsive, disgusting about the left is how they consistently deny that this is a major factor for many women, that women are in fact, hesitant and squeamish about it. Yeah, totally.

And like, you know, I saw Lauren Euler tweet to that extent. People really double down on, yeah, how meaningless it is. I mean, it's the Louis CK, but is it like taking your life or like taking a shit? Yeah, and it's the former. Yeah. I feel like Louis CK stole that bit from Ronald Reagan, who originally was pro-choice, and then became pro-life to court the evangelicals. So he was to further his political career. Right, right. But there's a famous line he says where he's like, you know, abortion is either murder or it's not. Right. I mean, I'm pro-choice. I would never have an abortion because I do believe in God. Yeah. And do think that life begins at conception. But I'm pro-choice in that I think like, I'm pro-choice to the extent that it is a meaningful

choice. Yeah. I feel like even calling it pro-choice kind of obscures the real issue, which is that most people have abortions out of poverty. Yeah. So they don't really have, they're not making a meaningful choice if they're like, compelled to terminate a pregnancy because they can't afford to have a baby. Well, yeah, I mean, the first one I had was out of poverty and desperation. The second one I had was out of cowardice. And obviously that happens too. But I think the majority and laziness of abortions are done for financial reasons. But it's also gross to see kind of liberal girl boss types consistently use poor people, teenagers, black people as symbolic pawns. And yeah. I mean, I sent you those girls literally dressed up in

Handmaid's Tale costumes, like dancing, which is in front of some like state building. It's crazy that they're still doing that also. It's insane. Like still get a life. Is this show still in the air? I don't know. I don't even think it is. But yeah, I mean, they love it. They're obsessed with, yeah. And they're obsessed with this fantasy of the repeal of Roe v. Wade. That would like disastrous consequences in their lives. And it's really gross to see them like traw the poor and underprivileged out for their own designs. It reminded me also that the people that are the most militantly pro-choice in a very unappealing, unattractive way that I think is actually alienating to a lot of people who are pro-choice

themselves. Those are the same people that will like advocate for mask mandates for children and vaccine mandates for pregnant women. They're the same people like in the New York Times, you have like arguments now that are like, well, it's true that masking inhibits cognitive development in children, but that's okay because they'll overcompensate and overcorrect by developing other senses. Like this kind of like article. Yeah. And it's just, it's interesting, you know, what they like pick and choose as their battles. This law is particularly depressing because it's just like another notch in this belt of endless culture war. Yeah. That's become so codified at this point, you know, like with the, I saw so many people

sharing like the, this image of like Texas made out of like a coat hanger, you know, and it's just, yeah, using these same kind of like gruesome symbols to allude to their like politics, which would become so, I mean, I think if you, if people, a lot of people really interrogated the way that they felt about abortion, they would feel similarly, right? Unless, you know, besides the one that like the most deluded, but abortion just becomes such a like flashpoint. It's the same people posting like black squares. It's like, yeah, those are the same people posting the like infographics about reproductive justice. They don't like actually care. Right. And it's, yeah. And I think like, I'm actually

very sympathetic to, to people who don't understand the ethical component because, you know, a lot of them have never been in the position where they had to make that decision. And also a lot of them don't know what it's like to have a kid and how that clarifies your views. I mean, they say that having a child makes you conservative, but they say it like it's a bad thing. I think it's not. Sure. Because suddenly you have something to lose. That's why Kanye is so pro-life. Yeah. Is he like totally pro-life? Yeah. He seems like he would be, it's easy to be pro-life when you have money. Well, sure. Because you can keep knocking them out. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. No, but of course, having a child makes you more conservative because you're invested

in, in something else. Yeah. In the future in a way in which you want to like, well, and I remember Liz Brunig, who is our second guest on the pod. And I remember she made this point that she was criticized for on the pod, which was essentially to the tune of, well, I'm personally privately pro-life, but I don't feel comfortable telling other women what to do, let alone making it a matter of public policy. Yeah. And I completely sympathize at that point. Completely, of course. I mean, it's, you would be, to be like, rapidly pro-life to the tune of like wanting to enact an influence policy. I think you'd have to be really foolish because the policies have like such massive ramifications, like even in Texas.

Yeah. Or you'd have to be a political strategist, a political opportunity. You're kind of genius. Well, who is pushing a particular agenda on voters to get them to act like consumers, basically. But you can't just, it's not, it's not like a single policy thing. It's like if you, if you really are pro-life, then you should be like alleviating child poverty. You don't, rather, argue over pro-life versus pro-choice viewpoint. Exactly. Or try to like, yeah, dismantle abortion clinics. You like make it so people don't have to get abortions if you really think that that's like the worst of the worst that something can do. Yeah, if it's such an urgent spiritual and moral

matter for you. Then there's a really straightforward way to make it so there's significantly less abortions and that's in like alleviating people's financial concerns. Yeah. And I think like, at the time, a lot of people were like, well, Liz is privately much more of a pro-life hardliner, but she can't admit that at a fear of social reprisal. And I was like, I don't really think that's what it is. I think that she probably sincerely feels that in her personal life, she would never get an abortion, but feels uncomfortable prescribing that to other people. Like nobody wants to be an authoritarian. You know, there's that great Victor Tsoy Lyric, you know, Lyric from Grupa Cruyue, where he says like, I'm like translating.

You know, I have the means to pay, but I don't want victory at any cost. I don't want to put my boot on somebody's chest. It almost kind of rhymes in English. I think that's my philosophy. That's what I live by. And like, it's about the Afghan war, actually, the Soviet Union invading Afghanistan. But yeah, if you really care about babies being aborted and you care about policy, then you should influence policies that incentivize it, incentivize people to have children, to have families. Basically, emphasis on rare. Exactly. Like it should be something that people don't jump into because they don't have any other options. Yeah. And there are people, frankly, who use abortion as birth control. They're in the minority, but they're always

also trotted out by the right wing camp as this kind of like overblown specter of like liberal immorality that's always like tinged also by the way with like, classist and racist overtones. I feel like we're in a real revival period. I mean, it feels like the loops are getting smaller and smaller and how we're just cycling through the recent past 20 year anniversary of 9 11 coming up. Yeah. Marilyn Manson's back abortions in the news again. It's funny because actually, you know, in the nineties, the whole business of abortion was very bloody in the sense that there were these pro-life activists going around blowing up abortion clinics and like assassinating abortion doctors. Yeah. Like that was we forget what an intense. Yeah.

You're going to do it. You better have some skin in the game. Now you have to sue them and go through a long legal litigation. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I always feel like I really kind of reluctant dread talking about abortion because it's something that I feel very like strongly about ethically and I'm sure you do too. I think you do and like it really pisses people off. It's meant to when you say that there is like this dark moral matter involved in it. Yeah. Well, and I have very limited capacities for yeah, but I think that sort of thing I think design that way because it's so much easier to say like my body, my choice. Well, you know, and that's dress up like a handmade tail.

Well, did you see that Greta Thunberg tweet everybody was sharing? No. That was like, what did that bitch have to say? Reasons for women to get an abortion. Mind your business. None of your business. My body, my choice. And it was just like the most insufferable, screechy infographic that like the the strategy is poverty. The reason most women get abortions is poverty. People are being so awful. It doesn't have to be, but that's how it is. Yeah. And that's like the reality that we have to deal with first and foremost. Yeah. I saw people like posting pics of Greta Thunberg under reasons why women get abortions. Damn. That's harsh. But yeah, like, I mean, okay, this, the famous slogan, my body, my choice.

What Scandinavian country is she from? Thunberg? I thought she was Swedish. I wonder what a Finnish abortion rates are like in Sweden. I think Sweden is one of the most liberal countries. The Scandinavian countries are very liberal. I look this up. Yeah. But because there's so well off my hunch is that abortions are pretty rare. Yeah, maybe that's a, we can look this up. Sweden abortion. I'm going to get your ass. 19.2 per thousand women in 2019. Okay. And it's been pretty consistently around there. So that's like, what's the abortion rate in the United States? Let's look. Really, really doing our research. Oh, wow. 13.5 per thousand, per thousand in

2017. Interesting. So less than, less than Sweden actually, never mind. Those godless Scandinavians are up, up to their old trends. Yeah, I mean, it seems like most nice liberal European countries allow abortion on demand between eight weeks in the end of the first trimester, after which you need a special reason, usually a doctor's note, that kind of thing. You have to really not want to. Yeah, you have to really, you have to really be willing to pay somebody a lot of money to write you a doctor's note. Yeah. And even in Poland, which is like liberal feminists love to melt down about Poland as being this completely horrible country where abortion is totally banned. It's actually not banned. It was interesting to find out. Well,

they're Catholic. Yeah, they're Catholic, but you can actually get an abortion if it was rape or incest, or if there's something life threatening, or for the mother, horribly developmentally wrong with a baby. You could easily say it's even raped. Yeah. Yeah. How do you prove that either way? It's like a functionally legal scenario. But I was thinking about this phrase, my body, my choice, because I saw some conservative woman tweet out an ultrasound of her baby and be like, no, it's actually his body now. And, you know, I really hate to bring negative attention upon myself, believe it or not, it really craters my confidence, you know? But I feel the same way at this point, having done it. Like once you have a baby and you see it in the ultrasound, you see its heartbeat,

you see it move around, like play a little, do a little percussion in the womb. Like, it's not my body anymore. It really isn't. Like I'm a vessel for. Well, that's a very maternal impulse. Yeah, that's how you and the thing that I think really gives people confidence and stills them with faith and hope and contentment is living in service of somebody else and loving somebody more than you love yourself. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I feel like a lot of liberal women, I think secretly feel that way, even though it's unfashionable for them to feel that way. Well, it's so perverted, the hysterical theatrical fixation on like, women's rights. Well, yeah, the other thing to keep in mind is like, they've like sublimated this like, natural, probably very real maternal

impulse that they have, yeah, into this like, perverted oppression complex into taking care of a pug with eczema and respiratory failure. They want to be oppressed, but they don't realize that their baby could be the most important oppressor of all. Salvation, yeah, mommy's little dictator. Exactly. Yeah, why be oppressed by a boss when you can be oppressed by a baby or better yet, a boss baby. Boss baby in theaters now. Our official review. I hate boss baby almost as much as I hate the Charmin Bears. It's like everything I hate in one. There's those little sock garters. Yeah, boss baby. That's the grossest part to me. That's like, pedophiles probably jack off to boss. I don't know. I don't know a burlatsky jacks off to boss baby. I'm sorry,

that was anti-Semitic. He does. He probably does. But yeah, I mean, the thing is like, okay, we do not ever want to go back to the good old days and because they were actually the bad old days and nor could we ever. Yeah, but it's true. They're long gone. Yeah, they're totally gone. But it's true that the whole abortion debate is framed in terms of this human rights framework, which is sort of the premise of liberalism. The right of the individual. Yeah, his autonomy, his choice, her, I should say. Men can have babies too. Actually, you might want to police your language a little more because they can give, have a baby also. Lil Nas X. Lil Nas X. Congratulations. Do it in October. Yeah. Is it a Libra baby? Soon.

I was like, sooner, I think in a couple weeks. Is that for real? Is the troll album cover going to be his real album cover? No, right? I don't know. He's just fucking around with Drake. Yeah. No, no, no, it's not going to be that. But fuck, I forgot what I was going to say. Sorry. Something about, oh, yeah, this human rights framework that just like, just historically speaking, is an anomaly. That's not the way that people saw themselves or their role in the cosmos throughout history. Yeah. This is like also a novelty and innovation. Yeah. But it's one of the principles this country was founded on. Right. And it's unclear or it's not unclear. It's actually unambiguous that

overall it hasn't been the victory or the coup that people want to think it is. It's had some pretty negative effects on people's lives. Liberalism. Yeah. This kind of human rights based framework. And I think the scary thing about a human rights based framework too is that, again, it shifts the burden of proof from the people who are making the case that abortion is good and necessary to those who oppose it. And it's like, well, no, you have to convince us why this is a necessary procedure. Why women should be able to have autonomy and choice over their bodies instead of vilifying every person with a kind of remotely pro-life argument as like a deplorable or a troglodyte. Right. Or even just like a nuanced perspective or take on it. Yeah.

Yeah. They require like a real uniformity. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's the problem with human rights framing in a nutshell that it's actually very manipulative and unfalsifiable. Right. Because if you challenge it, then you must be authoritarian and a monster and against everything that is good. Yeah. But that's a very American American thing. There's just no getting around that, you know. Yeah. Abortion is as American as apple pie. It's actually not, but. And I don't, my hunch is that I don't think Roe v. Wade will ever be repealed. No, I don't think so either. I think it's fundamentally, I think it, you know, you know, those in power, the elites want abortions to be accessible. So they can harvest

all those organs. Exactly. Yeah. And I think it just, it's too much of a, it's too important of a focal point in the culture war. Like it brings in a lot of resources. It's very charged. And it brings in a lot of dollars. And I think like, again, this I do not know enough about, but I've heard also people argue that even the conservative justices on the Supreme Court are not particularly interested in repealing Roe v. Wade, not only because of the complexity and technicality of it, but because I think they're probably some kind of ulterior motives too. Yeah. I mean, it's also corrupt, you know, and you really have to wonder when you see like corporations getting involved on behalf of like women's rights. Yeah. Well, who did you say? It

was like literally all the dating sites that cause women's lives to be miserable and unfulfilling. Yeah. And Lyft and Uber. Yeah. Who've like enslaved the most marginal of our population into being like precarity laborers. They're like, well, pay any legal fees for any because people love to point out how like per the terms of this law, even if you're like an Uber driver who drives someone to get an abortion, you are like liable to be sued by a deputized private citizen because you've technically aided and abetted. And so Uber did this very like, made this very performative statement of like, yeah, well, we'll pay the legal fees for anything because Uber really cares about women's rights.

So you're literally like an Afghan refugee that came to this country in an air lift, became an Uber driver unknowingly drove a woman to an abortion clinic. And now you're at the center of a lawsuit for aiding and abetting a criminal. Yeah, exactly. As sensibly that that could happen, you know, but I don't know. Just in dozens, it just all feels a little like fishy. Yeah. And one was has to wonder like who benefits financially. I mean, yeah, you know, you have your like evangelicals, your like right wingers who like, it's sort of a moral battle for them ostensibly, but it seems like it's transcended that bigger thing with competing interests that I'm not like smart

enough to figure out who they serve. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's, you can see like the history of abortion in the United States, how this was manufactured into an issue when, you know, for decades, nobody really much thought about it. And the only people in the United States who were really, really anti-abortion at all costs were the members of the Catholic Church, because they have a preexisting religious mandate against it. Right. Neither Democrats nor Republicans, though I think most Catholics were Democrats, really cared about the issue up until like the 80s. Yeah. Yeah. Which already something in the milk ain't clean, something in the breast milk.

Like when something becomes an issue right before your very eyes, that's why I was so skeptical and skieved out by the new media arc of kind of splitting hairs over the heartbeat. Because you can see new propaganda tactics popping up in general. It's like all these new COVID propaganda stories that are like healthy mother 35, her baby was baptized at her wake, and you look at photos and she's like morbidly obese. Or this dad said, I wish I was vaccinated moments before he passed away. Right. And it's just like, you know, it's a little too over-determined and on the nose or to be credible. There's an overwhelming amount of ivermectin overdoses at a hospital in Oklahoma, gunshot victims out of hospital beds for them.

Was an article published by Rolling Stone that ended up being completely manufactured, certified, totally false, made up, picked up by lots of other like middling outlets. And then shared across like social media in part of this like larger conversation people are having about ivermectin. Well, it was boosted by Rachel Maddow with absolutely no pushback, except for like maybe Glenn Greenwald was on her dick about it. But that's insane. And of course, the story was totally invented, fabricated. Also, like, even if it wasn't, you'd have to ask, why is there such a profusion of gunshot victims? Oklahoma? I don't know. I don't know enough about about crime. Crime is on the rise, I've heard. So, well, so Rogan contracted COVID,

which was written in the same tone that all these other like COVID propaganda pieces are are published and the Times especially kind of gleefully pointing out that he was like vaccine skeptical and then now has contracted COVID. And he was doing like video transmissions about his experiences, and was taking like a combination of like some steroid medication and ivermectin, which everyone is now hysterical about. Yeah. And maligning as like the magical drug of the intellectual dark web and like the dichotomy of like the good vaccinated people and the bad ivermectin taking people who like don't they know it's for horses? It's a veterinary dewormer. Yeah, I love when they're the new buzzword or buzzphrase, they won't even say ivermectin

anymore. They're like this horse paste. Yeah. First of all, there's nothing wrong with taking drugs for horses. Okay, very catamine by the way is also yeah, it's used as much like ivermectin. Many anti parasitic antiviral properties in ketamine. Good for depression. Just kidding. I mean, it's a well, it's in addition to it being used as like a horse tranquilizer, it's also like a very popular anesthetic that they still use in like developing countries as like their primary anesthesia. That's why I got into it when I went to Thailand. Okay, because you needed to be because it was in available and very pure. Yeah. And I mean, they use it in like micro dosing for like mental health therapy, right? They do it intravenously. It's not exactly a micro dose,

but it's not still it's still like a fraction of the I see. But we're not talking about ketamine, we're talking about ivermectin. And the FDA had that stupid ass tweet that was like, you're not a horse, you're not a cow. Actually, my mom growing up was like women are either rats, chickens, fish, horses or cows. That's why I'm such a misogynist, like the types that women fall into like archetypally, but in a way that combines physical and mental properties. She was a real bitch. That woman just kidding. I love her. Come on. No, she's an artist, a Gemini. But yeah, it was a stupid ass tweet that was like using like stupid ass DSA abonics, like, what up folks? Y'all ain't no horse. Lil Nas X said in Old Country Road, it's like this like tone

that like an official medical association takes. Right. I mean, the FDA, good God. Yeah. Like, they've never let us astray before. I mean, I'm not like a ivermectin truther. Yeah, me neither. And knowing what I know about medicine, which is not a ton, I do know that like much like Ketamine, it yeah, it's used in like veterinary context, but it also they make it for people to take. And well, it was FDA approved for people to take for as an anti Paris site therapy. Yeah. And it has side effects like any drug, but I don't think it is like on the whole that dangerous for people to take. Well, I mean, the question with ivermectin using it for like the indication of treating COVID is that there are some speculation that like the dose that you

may need it in may cause overdose or toxicity. Like you might need too high a dose to see actual gains. Yes. Okay. So the jury's out. It's unclear whether ivermectin works either prophylactically or therapeutically in the treatment of COVID. But it's fair to say that all the weird spin around it is a red flag. Yeah. And I mean, that's why Tayeevi is really going off about the yeah, like YouTube censoring. Yeah. And I think like the other thing is that there are a host of official medical agencies and official health agencies that are asking us to like suspend disbelief and take them at their word and you know, trust the science when historically and especially recently,

they've been lying to us and they're not only plagued by internal capture, but they're also plagued by interagency discord and they're suffering a massive crisis of legitimacy. Yeah. So can you blame people for experimenting? Well, okay, I'm not going to reveal my source. Okay. But I know someone who was prescribed ivermectin in the case in case they got COVID. Okay. In January. Okay. By a extremely reputable, very expensive doctor. Okay. In many such cases. Yeah. Prior to this. I know people like that. Yeah. Prior to this this whole issue sort of blowing up into like a partisan conversation, ivermectin was being

prescribed by medical doctors. We all love so much. And that there was evidence that it was effective in treating COVID. Yeah. I mean, how much so vis-a-vis the sides, like the side effects, I don't know, but yeah, the jury's out and you know, I read that piece by Anna Merlin that you sent me and I have to, you know, give credit where it's due. Her writing has really improved since she wrote that crazy ass hit piece on us, which by the way was a work of art. I love that article. But her writing has become more professionalized. Maybe vice just has a better editor. It has a clarity to it. But in it, she makes the case. I mean, she rounds up all the usual suspects. Brett Weinstein. Yeah.

Pierre Corey. Rogan. Joe Rogan, Matt Taimi. And she makes the case that actually what YouTube is doing to these guys and others is not censorship, it's moderation. Yeah. Which like, okay. That's all YouTube ever does. Yeah. And it's fine. We can debate those terms. But why then is the mainstream media fabricating anti ivermectin propaganda? I mean, as in the case of the Rolling Stone argument, it makes them look like they have something to hide. Or it's that they're so incompetent. I mean, Rolling Stone is not like a paper of record, you know? Well, yeah. And then I think that media is struggling so much, especially post Trump. Yeah. That there just isn't a lot of like oversight, fact checking, like people are not doing their due diligence and journalism

is like, right. Which is why also increasingly becoming like a hack profession with very, very little credibility. Yeah. As a friend of mine said on Twitter today, journalists are also a clumps of cells. But, um, well, I think they've made they've feebly and unconvincingly tried to make first Tucker Carlson, then Joe Rogan, their post Trump boogeyman, like the picture that they use in the New York Times article about how he contracted COVID and dose Ivermectin. Yeah, he looks strung out and like, uh, consumptive. But the other thing is like, even as a piece of propaganda that fails, because it's much, much less convincing than something like mother 35 dies, right? Because like nothing happened to him. He's fine. He got COVID. But if you get

the vaccine, you can also have a breakthrough infection, plenty of different types of people get COVID. That's the thing. It's like, I have no, what's the story? I have no real investment or conviction in Ivermectin as like medicine. Yeah. It's totally plausible to me that it is not effective, doesn't work, but neither do the vaccines. Well, right. Well, the thing is the vaccines, there is now evidence that they create create adverse effects in certain people with like the spike proteins breaking off, traveling through the bloodstream, causing, for example, heart inflammation in young men. That's documented. There's also evidence that there are efficacy wanes after four to six months requiring a program of boosters.

They're far from perfect. I'm far from an anti-vax person. I think vaccines work. I marched my kid to the pediatrician at two months and gave him his little suite of vaccines. Yeah. But there are real and serious issues with these vaccines. Sure. Yeah. And yeah, so the vaccines are the reason they're allowed. So I think the Pfizer one recently got approved by the FDA, but they were when I read that, I was like, what? Yeah. I thought it was already, I was like, are you already already got that? No, no, no, none of them were approved by the FDA. I know. I didn't realize that until Pfizer got FDA approval because it's a state of exception. So they're allowed via these emergency use authorizations, which have a provision in them that says that

they can't grant the authorization. If there's an existing treatment that's safe and effective, like meaning these vaccines would not receive these like liability waivers if I've remacked, and for example, or some other therapy was proven to be a more effective competitor. Okay. So, so there's an incentive. There's an incentive to, to, to, to thwar, to silence any attempts at testing out whether or not this thing works, which is not to say it does, you know. Yeah. On the Ivermectin subreddit, people seem to be having some trouble. Ball. No, like there's, there are, it's definitely not like some miracle cure. Yeah. But on the other hand, and this, I really would love it if somebody like fact checked with, then followed up with me.

To my knowledge, there hasn't really been a documented case of anybody fatally overdosing on Ivermectin, correct? That doesn't sound right. No, I don't think so. It doesn't. Yeah. There's, there's all these, all these stories. The, one of the main features that they have about them is that they spread fear and alarm about Ivermectin that may actually, you know, be born out to be plausible, but they don't actually have, you know, a concrete smoking gun of somebody. Well, they're fully lying. They're publishing complete misinformation. Yes. No, I know. I'm just trying, I'm trying to be, I'm trying to be charitable and reasonable. Yeah, we're being very even. I mean, we're not doctors. We don't,

that ass just don't know. And, you know, yeah, somebody, I've seen a lot of people, I think in TaiIbi included, and I read that article, I thought it was a good piece, saying that essentially the Ivermectin panic is pure class hatred, like masquerading as public policy. Yeah. As it always like, I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think that's what it is. I think that that is a kind of rationalization after the fact or consequence after the fact. I mean, there's, I guess, conflation with, you know, Ivermectin user and anti-vaxxer, unvaccinated person, you know, and the whole unvaccinated stuff. No, no, no, that's definitely there. But I think the main motive for quote, moderating the discussion about Ivermectin is

that it really is possibly a serious obstruction to the competition. Like if Ivermectin is shown in trials and tests to be even slightly more effective, slightly more safe than the vaccines, that puts a wrench in their plans of having a never-ending program of booster shots. And it puts a pin in any initiatives to develop a patented for-profit proprietary antiviral competitor, which there are certain pharmaceutical companies that are working on an Ivermectin-like medication. Because again, Ivermectin totally doesn't work. And so something almost exactly like it on the molecular level might. Interesting. Yeah. So I think that it's mainly a financial decision by the people at the top. Of course. Because like I said this a year ago, this

situation with COVID is the greatest wealth transfer in American history. Yeah. And I mean, there's reason to be skeptical of I mean, so everything just so there really is. Yeah. I mean, the rapid expansion of like surveillance apparatuses. Yeah. In addition to the transfer of wealth, like the well, and the other thing, I'll show you the readiness of readiness with which people are just like, this is just how it is. Well, like the willingness of which previously cool outlets like Vice and Rolling Stone, I mean, I sure previously cool and air quotes are basically being total squares and writing like press releases for the official consensus. Like that

should be also a red flag for the FDA. Yeah. And I mean, I think COVID really did a did a number on people. Well, the thing is like people are mentally like this is like a question on the level of is Kanye a brilliant genius or an empty provocateur like is this collusion or conspiracy is it coordinated? Well, yes and no. I mean, I think on the upper levels, there is some coordination and some conspiring. Yeah, some some little problem. It's trickle down it like it doesn't have to all be an inside job because everything sort of functions as it ought to once the yeah, once it's set in motion. Well, yeah. And on the lower and mid tier levels, I think it's just, you know, a prisoner's dilemma type situation where you net out a socially suboptimal outcome

because everyone is looking out for themselves based on what little they know. There's this guy that both Anna Merlin and Matt Taibbi mentioned that. I mean, again, I would recommend reading the Taibbi sub stack and I would recommend the Joe Rogan speaking of Joe Rogan, the podcast episode with Brett Weinstein and this guy, Pierre Corey, who's like a pulmonologist and he's at the forefront. He's sort of the spokesperson for Ivermectin. Okay. And he's an interesting and controversial figure because he's kind of an overseller. He's a little too over enthusiastic about Ivermectin. But on the other hand, an interesting footnote about him that Anna Merlin, for example, does not mention at all, is that he and his colleague, this guy, Peter Marek,

I think it was mostly Peter Marek, though he has some credit for it, were early on at the start of COVID when people were grappling for a treatment protocol. They recommended the use of corticosteroids, which like everybody, corticosteroids are a class of drugs that basically lower inflammation in the body. Okay. And at the time they were shot down and branded as quacks. And now treatment with corticosteroids has become the standard of care. Interesting. Basically, previously they were giving you fluids and putting you on ventilation, both of which are possibly harmful. Yeah. So the ventilators certainly seem to be. Yeah. So these guys are not crackpots. Sure. And they have a record of success. And so I would treat the Rogan episode

with a grain of salt, but it's interesting for sure, because it lays out the stakes. It's good to stay skeptical. Because at the end of the day, COVID is a bio weapon. What? Yeah, but it's crazy when people are like, oh, well, you guys, you should sort of unanimously unequivocally trust Anthony Fauci, who potentially had a hand in making this crisis happen in the first place. Yeah. Because he was funding gain of function research through his agency. Oh my God. I feel like Alex Jones now, I give up. Alex Jones vindicated. Yeah. I saw that clip. The one where he takes the Evermectin. Where he calls Fauci Mengele. Yeah. Mengele, fuck, you prion, you murderer, murderous bastards. Incredible. You want to, you want to suppress

me? You want to kill me? I'm in love with him. Me too. I just want to say we can wrap it up, I think, unless you have any final, final thoughts. I don't have any more thoughts on Evermectin. No. I just want to say one last thing. Oh. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Me saying Steve Bannon is hot is obviously a bit, but me saying Alex Jones is hot is not. It's neither are bits for me. But the one thing I did want to bring up is where the fuck did Pete and Chase didn't get those babies? Oh, right. We forgot to talk about that. And why isn't anyone, we can wrap it up without. Okay. Yeah. There's not a lot. On a lighter note, some lighter fare. So Pete Buttigieg. Yeah. And his first lady,

Chase and Buttigieg. Chase and have a last name. No clue. Chase and X. Yeah. Their parents now? Yeah. Pete Buttigieg broke the news about a month ago that they like ostensibly, one would assume like adopted or like the language is very, I don't know. Remember what the tweet said exactly. But recently, a couple of days ago, they posted a photo of them side by side on a hospital bed holding twin infants. Yeah. Penelope Rose Buttigieg and Jack Harlow Buttigieg named after Pete's dead dad, Jack Harlow, like Joseph August Buttigieg. Yeah. Great memory. I totally, I totally repressed that from it. I pieced them together because I remember the names were so, I remember August. I was being like, whoa, weird.

Yeah. August named after the worst month. The worst, yeah, the cruelest month. But so then I was like, because you said something about a surrogate. And I was like, no, I was like, I think they adopted. And then I was like looking at articles. And the one I sent you was incredibly vague. It like suspension, like the language they use is like they acquired children, they became parents. They purchased children on the intellectual dark web. Yeah. In that like Washington Post article, I think it was, it was like they very cunningly like detail their struggles with adoption. Yeah. But never actually say that they adopted those kids. Right. Yeah. There's so many red flags in that article.

Where the fuck did they get those babies? Well, okay, I'm sorry. Just like the hospital bed, the wristbands. That's bizarre. Black and white photo. The fact that he named the boy after his dad, which no self-respecting gay guy would ever do because as a gay guy, you hate your dad. Of course. Which proves that he's straight. Faggot Buttigieg. My son, Faggot. So how do we interpret the hospital bed? Well, they either staged a total AOC dress like a coke dealer crying over a concrete slab, pretending that there's migrant children on the other side, photo op because they wanted to make it look like an authentic birth story or they had a surrogate

and literally in the hospital. It's possible that they could have adopted and had some arrangement with a pregnant woman who wasn't a surrogate per se, but they adopted the babies like at the hospital. Yeah. Okay. Is what might was my thinking. Yeah. But of course, yeah, there was obviously like a political publicist there who was like, okay, let's get on the get on the get on the bed and yeah, let's take the pic and look at the bundles with joy. My theory, like I said, is that it was a very late term abortion. The babies survived and they took them. Yeah. Twins. Twins. And my other theory about Pete and Chase, and you know that there's like that right wing theory that Ilhan Omar married her gay face brother for a visa to get him a visa.

No, I didn't hear that. That's literally, that's literally a theory. It's like the new Obama. So they're saying her husband is her brother. Well, not anymore because now she's married to that white guy, like all properly woke women. It seems like it can be easy to prove whether or not she married her brother. You know, what is very easy to prove is that her brother is a looker, that whole family. He looks like Montell Jordan, but like with gay face. Nice. He really runs little mosaics off the road. But my theory is that Pete and Jason are biological brothers who entered into a Faustian bargain where they had to gay marry to gain political clout. And God does not seem ambitious to me. I think he's very happy in his like relegated role. I mean, all gay guys are

ambitious one way or another. He depends on where they're, he has very effeminate ambitions, I think of like wanting to be the partner of he see he has real like first lady syndrome or something, where he's like in love with like the glamour of being a political wife, you know, but he himself, it's like Camelot. Exactly. He's the Jackie O of the Department of Transportation. But God, those guys creep me out. And yeah, it's not of our business, I guess, where they got the babies from. But if you're going to make this, well, it is like a dead surrogate. I doubt she's dead. Oh my God, my theory is the babies are lizards. And that's why they're, they won't show their faces in the photos because they have black eyes. Yeah, it's like that.

This the last scene of Rosemary's baby where you see his like, you don't see the baby. But yeah, I thought you saw his devil eyes, right? Or do you see just Satan's eyes? You see like some burning eyes. She goes, what have you done to his eyes? But I think you don't like it. Oh, yeah. Or like the brood, they're like, they just have these like, they're hatchlings, burge and worms with like black bleeding eyes. Pete Buttigieg is a Cronen burge and heroin. He just grows like weird baby appendages and puts them in staff position in various Biden bureaucratic agencies because they also grow at an accelerated rate. Congratulations on your, on your new family. Pete and Jason, I'm like crying gift of AOC congratulating them on their family. Oh my God,

they're so beautiful. Also, the other thing is like Pete seems like a guy who's like uniquely inconvenienced by being gay and also by having children. So I don't know why he insists on bringing these things upon himself when he can just quietly serve as a functionary. He wants more. Yeah. He's got that classic gay ambition where he just wants, you know, he wants to be the president. Yeah. And he thinks if he can just like build his brand in the adequate way, yeah, he'll, he has like lofty political ambitions, you can tell. I know it's pathetic because he's so charmless. No, I know. And I love that in spite of these lofty ambitions. He's literally the secretary of transportation, which just sounds

like a very mundane and unsexy job. I know. He's paying his dues. Yeah. Anyway, it's karmic retribution. I can't wait for those kids to grow up and me a pharaoh him. I'm can't wait to find out where the fuck they came from. Yeah, I would like to know just just a little more tangible language please around like what's going on there. Yeah, a little bit more in transparency. Yeah, detail. Just a little. Yeah. Narrative. We love telling your story. Yeah. You guys can tell your story about how you got the babies from maybe yeah, they're like building up to it. Maybe that's why it's this like protracted announcement delayed photo thing. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know. They almost feel like it almost feels like they simultaneously wanted the attention and clout,

but also hope that it would die quickly. So they didn't have to answer where they got the babies from. They could just stow the babies away. Like, you know, ask a married have kids, get dads. That's put that on the resume. The babies are actually fully grown Ukrainian dwarfs. Huzbolah. Grifter. Oh my God, I wish it was. I wish Huzbolah would threaten Pete Buttigieg with a knife. Rosemary's baby, but you find out it's Huzbolah. Well, that's a happy ending. Yeah. I am obsessed with Huzbolah. Anyway, I think we nailed it. You and Hal. I'm like Pete. Sorry. I'm like Pete and Chase. And I hope people laugh at our Pete and Chase and remarks and forget the abortion stuff. Anyway, see you and Hal.

And the ivermectin stuff.