Red Scare - Freddie de Bore

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

The ladies do a post mortem on the last episode and discuss Freddie de Boer's recent pieces for Substack and

We're back. We're back. What a wild couple of weeks it's been. It has, yeah. And now we're back in the neoliberal war room. My mind is nice and empty, ready to podcast, to generate insights that's what people don't guess. First, you have to empty your mind.

A lot of people like to do research and stuff and become informed before they do a podcast, but not me. I like my mind needs to be clear. Yeah, nice and blank. So I can have the clarity. Yeah. To have insights. Happy Hanukkah?

Oh my god, happy Hanukkah. Mazah, yam, good yantif. It's all the juice out there. Hanukkah's so early this time of year that no one cares. Because it's usually kind of a BS holiday or Christmas. Yeah, it's a Jewish solidarity. It's so juice don't feel left out.

Exactly. During the Christmas season. Yeah. They don't anyway because they have their own little Christmas. Like everyone celebrates Christmas. Yeah, and they have a cabal along with the Chinese. And they like to spend Christmas together. Godless.

Yeah. And also everybody agrees that Hanukkah's like not that important in the hierarchy of Jewish holidays. Exactly. It's not like Passover, Rosh Hashanah, or whatever. Those are the only other yam kippur. Yeah. I don't know.

There's some other ones too. Yeah. But yeah, Hanukkah's a relatively minor one. Well, there's Shabbos every week. Yeah, they are always celebrating. God knows what. But Hanukkah is one of those Oriental holidays that depends on the calendar, right?

Like it shifts. Yeah, so this year. It's really, really. Snuck up on us right after Black Friday. I'm sure they got those, yeah. Hanukkah's the celebration of all the Black Friday deals. The Jews got this year. How much money they saved.

It's already off a flat screen TV. Best buy. Did you buy anything on Black Friday? No, I never do. Do you? No. I'm just, I'll just pay a full price. I'm like, I don't know.

Well, that's not true. I bought stuff last year because I had to get furniture for the apartment. And that was one of the wisest decisions I've ever made. But generally, I have no libido for shopping on Black Friday. It makes me feel hollow and empty. And I just like to pretend it doesn't exist. Well, it used to signify more of this like people would go

and like stampede over one another to get these deals. It used to be more like less socially distanced, if you will. And now it feels like it's all online, which really drains the libido out of it, I think, as well, because it's like. Yeah, it used to be a fun little blood sport to make fun of all the crazy lumping, trampling each other. Now I just like get too many emails, you know, like, fuck this. Allo, don't need, fuck off, don't care, made well.

I don't know how I signed up for texts. I don't give my phone number to anyone. But one of the most satisfying things is responding to like those like advertising, like, e-tail texts by just writing stop and being unsubscribed. Yeah, yeah, that does feel good. You don't get to do that a lot.

Stop raping me, no, means no. Yeah, we get so seldom to advocate for our agency that. Yeah, and I feel good to say no when you can. You scanned the e-coms, and it was just all like Bottega Veneta and Balenciaga, like chunky rubber galoshes. Yeah, I've like even, I've spent time recently on Essence and still had a hard time being. I don't know, maybe I'm just growing up

and I don't think like tie-dye pants are going to like change my life anymore. You've unlocked the secret of like Lacanian desire or something. Not wanting. Yeah. Yeah, I've bridged the gap. The only way to win the game is to not play. I just bought another little leather jacket on the URL.

It's not even the season for that. I'm just really, I'm obsessed with this photo of Isabella Johnny in Algiers in like the 90s, where she's wearing, you look up Isabella Johnny Algiers. Yeah, and she's wearing a black leather jacket and sunglasses and like a little beret. And I'm convinced I'm going to find the right jacket one day that's going to like capture the aura of that photograph

and achieve, unlock a new level of being adorable. But it's hard to find a good beret too, let's be honest. This one? Yeah. That's really cute. Look how cool she looks. Yeah, that's like a member's only type jacket. It's a really weird one.

It's like kind of almost like marching band silhouette. It's like double breasted. But I'm not looking for that jacket. I'm just looking for something with like that kind of collar that will evoke a similar kind of like, because it's so hard to wear a leather jacket for me as a bottle blonde and not look like a Madewell girl. Like when Madewell girls wear like their little biker jacket

and their like medium wash blue jeans. And that's basically how it goes for me anytime I put on a leather jacket. But I want to look more like a Johnny or even like Quentin Tarantino or something. French or Gen X. Yeah, yeah. Precisely.

I mean, the grass is always greener. I feel like it's very hard for me to wear a leather jacket and not look like a 90s black comedian. You could pull off a trench. Yeah, but then I just end up looking like that guy from the verve. Yeah, yeah. Just elbowing people out of the way on the way to melds

to get my baked goods. Well, I struggle with. But you never look like what you aspire to look like. Exactly. It's an unattainable ideal. I struggle with leopard print because I think it makes me look rockabilly and like no matter what I do. Yeah, but it makes everybody look like a cheaper less core

except for Carol and Basette. Or Julie Delpy, who's my new phone partner. See, she looks great. But you have to kind of be this like, I don't know. You have to have frizzy hair. Frizzy, yeah. If the hair is too like sleek and shiny, then you look overly kind of like slutty and basic.

Yeah, yeah. And also I feel like because I am so into Edwardian garments, I'm like towing a really thin line between like steampunk. Yeah. I'm almost steampunk a little too often. But ask yourself, do you really need to wear leopard print? No, no, of course not. I was like on the real, real looking at a pair of like

Margiela tabby flats in like pony hair leopard print. And then I like zoomed out of my body and was like, wait, you don't need this. You don't need weird Japanese toe shoes that make everybody look pretentious, except for like Chloe Seven, who's the only one who could pull off that style that are made of dead ponies. Is that really what pony hair is?

I always thought it was some kind of synthetic because I maybe it's bovine leather. I don't know. I have a pair of leopard print pony hair heel pumps from Rachel Comey that I do it like. I think shoes, you know. But really ponies made out of. I don't know.

It's definitely an animal. I don't want to. Some sort. Yeah, but we were leather. Yeah, we would hate to be. I wear leather and shield really. I'm such a hypocrite. We would hate to spread this info on them.

But I'm like a Joan Rivers ass hoe. So I always buy everything secondhand that's leather to make myself feel slightly better, even though of course I'm like full of shit. I guess I do too. But I mostly think secondhand just because I'm not that savvy or really that into fashion. It's something that I'm really coming to terms with.

No, I mean, but that's the way to do it. The minute that you start being way too into fashion. Virgil Abloh died. Oh, he died. Yeah. And I kind of was like barely know kind of who he is, which is, you know, I was like, oh, so sad. And I'm like, it can tell he's really important.

And obviously he was really young and I'm sure certainly talented and surprisingly not gay. So we had two kids, which is the real kind of tragedy of it. Shocker. But people used to like to dunk on Virgil because that name, it just seems to be such a punchable name. Yeah. I keep thinking people are talking about the other Virgil.

I was like, oh, he died, my bad. But it's like really sad. He was 41. And people used to make fun of him because he had a really kind of like basic made well wedding, which I thought was kind of cool because he was like such a like hip designer or whatever. Well, the only thing worse than having like a basic bitch

mason jar wedding is having like some kind of like conceptual, you know, ricko and storkshut with like cargo pockets. Bless you. And the other thing that people used to make fun of him for, which we can't anymore, obviously, is that he was like, you know, a garden variety Margiela. Ripoff artist, which every designer is in this day and age. Yeah.

But I do know who Virgil Abloh is because, you know, my like shiny nude colored puffer parka that looks like a fat suit. Yeah. That's his design. Oh, cool. So he made at least one really off white. Yeah, OK. I have like an off white kind of like motocross tight t-shirt

that I got on an essence sale that I like never wear. But I kind of had this idea of myself as like wearing. Yeah. Wearing off white and like looking really hot and sporty. Yeah. And kind of like motocross like cool. It was like it's almost like to I never I still have it, but it's like almost like too cool for me to even put on.

Yeah. It doesn't like doesn't feel right. That parka I like because it's like just like non branded and generic. And I ripped out the giant like label that said off white. Right, right. But yeah, he I always confuse him with that other guy, Heron Preston, who does the really corny designs that say steed in Russian letters.

Yeah, yeah, I've noted those. Yeah. Yeah. So that it's not that guy. Not that guy. Yeah. Got it. Yeah.

Should we talk about our experiences in Texas? Sure. I had a ball. I felt really happy to close the loop on my info wars journey. Mm hmm. You know, or maybe open, maybe even a new loop. I mean, I don't know. I found Alex to be.

I'm sure you agree. Extremely pure of spirit. Yeah, like highly charming and personable and a nice guy and all around nice guy. Yeah. He showed us how to shoot those guns. I had a New York mag wrote a profile of me that went into print on Monday, which was a great relief. But then when they republished it on the vulture, they added a little addendum

about me cozying up to Alex Jones posing coquettishly near him, which I found slimy, honestly, and uncompassionate. Well, I mean, here's the thing me and Alex Jones. It's just like a bad and gay move on their part because the record already exists in print. What does it matter? Well, it doesn't. But it's it'll live on longer online where eyeballs will see it.

But it's undignified to issue a disclaimer to cover your bases once you've already committed to a story. It is. Yeah. And so they only make themselves look bad in the long run. And nobody will notice and nobody will care also in the long run. But like, I just, yeah, it's warmy, slimy behavior. And if you agree to publish a profile, somebody should stick to your guns. Yeah.

And it wasn't exactly out of character for us. Right. You know, I didn't feel like it was such a such a stretch. So it was a big big get. Right. Yeah, I mean, we'll get into that. But I don't think great piece of radio. I really think I enjoyed the interview. Everyone should listen to the interview.

And I enjoyed getting to know a different side of Alex. And I do think it matters a lot. I think I'm sure a lot of people think it was like a cheap and empty maneuver. We'll get to that when we talk about Freddie DeBauer's piece. But I think it's important to show people another side of a person who's been vilified and even to platformed. Not because we have an obligation to defend them, because we frankly don't. Of course.

But because I think we have an obligation to show people how the media aligns against others and makes an example of them. And how it could come around to hurt you. But right. But beyond obligation, I think it's just compassionate to try and understand someone in a good faith way, which happens to seldom in media, as I'm learning. Right. And by the way, when I first learned about Alex Jones' remarks about the Sandy Hook stuff,

I thought they were very slimy and disgusting. And then, of course, you learn the true story behind it and everything is like recontextualized. But I think it makes sense that we would interview him. I've been like a fan of Alex Jones for a long time as an artist. I think he's like probably the greatest living artist. He's an incredible entertainer. Yeah. And for people to pretend that they don't want to be entertained, I think is so phony.

Yeah. But when you say the truth of what really happened, you mean like that in his later retractions of the Sandy Hook statements that he was insane, that he was having like a psychotic episode? I don't know about that. I think his claim that he was suffering from some psychotic event was also maybe him covering his bases, but I feel like I disagree. Well, I'm not I'm not going to say how I feel either way because it's irrelevant.

But what I'm saying is that the comments that he made about Sandy Hook were not comments about the lives of those children. They were comments to the tune of like he thought it was a hoax, which given the media's record of like lying to everybody about everything was a fairly, if not reasonable, like you could see how he got there given his kind of brand and persona. Well, yes, definitely. But my feeling is that, I mean, he was legitimately psychotic. And I read, you know, one of the statements that he made back in like 2019, which was

about how at the time he believed that many things were false flags. And, you know, now he knows that not everything is a false flag, but that he had been lied to so much and he said something like it's like when you're a kid and your parents lied to you over and over again. And I thought that that was very interesting that he would associate to childhood, his own childhood. And in the stuff that he said on our podcast about his childhood, which I won't recap because you have to subscribe to our Patreon to listen to it.

No, but I, I don't know, I had a strong feeling intuitively that Sandy Hook, I'm psychoanalyzing here as I want to do, but that Sandy Hook triggered a psychotic episode in Alex Jones because something happened to him in his childhood that made him feel like massacred, betrayed but like beyond that kind of like when you're, you know, I, you know how much I love early childhood trauma. But yeah, like when you're a child and something happens that makes you feel obliterated, you know, that is like a traumatic event that, yeah, that's fair. But I think like, okay, he didn't say that he didn't say the children's well, it wasn't

merely that he said they deserve to die. It wasn't merely that he said it was a hoax, it was that he said the parents were crisis actors, which then caused them to be harassed by info wars listeners. And that's the worst thing that he's done. And he's apologized for that many times. But you know, as many people have pointed out, Sandy Hook happened in 2012, he made those comments in 2012, the story only picked up in 2018, and the parents only sued in 2018. Yeah.

Why? Well, that's anyone's guess. I can surmise as to why, but it feels also like this is a classic case of the media also inflaming that story. And at the time, there was plenty of other conspiracy theorists, right, who were also banding about the story that Sandy Hook was a hoax. Yeah, it was an novel. Alex Jones is hardly the only one.

But somehow those other voices were like drowned out. And he became kind of a fall guy for a host of things that didn't have to do with Sandy Hook. But Sandy Hook was like the kind of like morally unassailable. Exactly. Sinch that they got him on, because we all know that you can't violate the sanctity of children and of death, especially when there's dead children involved. So there's like more to the story than meets the eye, obviously.

And that's not to like defend his remarks. He wouldn't even, he's retracted and apologized for the remarks that he's made. But the mainstream media, social media, all of these actors who have gone out of their way to like condemn and to platform Alex Jones are equally complicit in spreading the story and inflaming people's feelings, of course, of course, yeah. And of course, that always gets left out because they'll always say, well, we were just reporting on it. Mm hmm.

They're just doing their jobs. And mostly, I don't know, maybe I've just gotten more desensitized to like the pylons that were subject to from time to time. But I really felt like the response was pretty uniformly positive because Alex Jones does have a lot of fans. He's a positive and uplifting guy that everybody likes in spite of themselves. Yeah. He's a salesman.

He reminds me of my ex, Tim. He can sell you anything. The only thing that was, I guess, shocking, but not surprising was that like all extremely famous people, he's kind of out of it because he's forced to like screen out details and nuances from his everyday life because he has so many people coming at him at all times. What do you mean? You know, he has that like, that thing that all extremely famous people have where they're kind of like checked out, even as they're like charming and they interface with you.

I found him to be relatively present, though I know what you're talking about. No, he was present, but he was like kind of like in his own world, in his own zone. And that's probably also the thing that made him famous in the first place because he's very like the focus that he's able to, yeah, zero in on being an extraordinary performer. But I mean, the thing, the point is that when you meet this person, you can immediately like understand that he's a well-meaning and friendly human being who really means no harm. Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. And I think, I don't know, most people have cognizance of that and do have warm, a warm disposition towards him, though a lot definitely don't. And he is, you know, you could really make the case that he is a targeted individual. Just let him back on YouTube. Yeah. They could all really use it from morale with all these new COVID variants, you know, it's like everything is such a drag.

We should be the Omerion variant. What's it called? Omicron. Omicron. Omicron. Omicron. Omicron. They're trying to really break my spirit.

They're trying to stifle the friendship. They're trying to, can't come up with more fucking stupid ass words I have to say. Yeah. God damn it. Om, Omicron. Omicron. Omicron. Um, for the new Day-C-C-O Twitter.

I've never, I've never even gonna learn. Sorry, I can't do my Indian voice, which I do really good impression. No. So I'll take my little, you can't jobs where I can get them in. We can't do that here. Right. So then, but then Freddie de Boer wrote this piece on his sub-stack.

Yes. That I couldn't tell I texted you. I was like, is he, is he dunking on us? I didn't, it was a little bit incoherent. And then he published sort of a follow-up that I think was a little bit grandiose. Got to be honest where he like really tripled down on his right to be incoherent and, you know,

not to be ableist but did seem a little manic. Well, you know, Freddie is kind of a manic guy. I mean that with no disrespect, he's been pretty like open about his like mental health struggles. And I think that certainly comes across in his writing. Yeah. Which is styled to be very sane and reasonable,

but comes across as like pulsating with fervor, which isn't a bad thing by the way. No, that's, I prefer that to, you know, some of the more tepid sub-stacks up there, I guess. I subscribed. Wait, did you really? I did, cause he had this other thing about like neo liberalism that I was reading and then it was like,

finally I can learn what that word means. Exactly. Cause I was using it for four years. Like subscribe to read more. So I did. And then I was like, boring. Yeah. No fault of his, just my own attention span.

I will submit here that I've always thought Freddie was a very talented and exciting writer. And I've read his blog in various iterations for years. And he combines these elements of the two writers that I really like, the last psychiatrist in Christopher Lash who do the same beat that I've since pilfered, where, you know, he combines kind of like the pithiness of TLP with the moralism of Lash.

So he speaks to me as a writer. Yeah. And I have a lot of fun. So what did you make of witching hour? So the post was called the witching hour approaches or something and was paired deliberately with the photo of us with Alex Jones in which we all look are absolutely glowing.

Yeah. Wait, I had to think about that. Yeah, it's a good way. You look good. What do you mean? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I hate being in photos in general.

You look great in that. Thank you. I just like hate, I don't like the, I'm like one of those aborigines who feels like every time. It steals your soul. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally.

But yeah, we look at our skin looks good. Alex's skin looks good. Gold, it was like golden hour. Yeah, the light. Yeah, we were the thrill of firing, you know, guns. We have that kind of glow about us. Honestly, the most beautiful thing about that evening was reliving my childhood passion of like eating Chick-fil-A

and then also that beautiful photo-ready golden light. Yeah, I got some nice selfies in those like. Yeah, it was beautiful. Protective goggles, I was saying. And those look great. Those, the yellow ones, they look like something like Missy or like Timberland would wear in like 2001. That was the look, Aliyah.

Yeah, so yeah, I think people were obviously with the Freddy piece. It's called The Witching Hour Approaches on a sub-stack. You should subscribe to it. People have been focusing on the second more like intense and poetic half, but I feel like that he really said everything that you need to know in the first half, which is to say the first paragraph.

Right. So the pieces about, you know, how social justice rhetoric, i.e. wokeness, is losing to these alternative forces. Of chaos and nihilism that are not so much politically antagonistic, but that stand for nothing. And so right off the bat, he says, it would be a mistake to say that social justice politics, OK, all right, fine, fuck it, wokeness is winning.

And like on the surface, that would seem like a very fair and reasonable assessment of the state of things. That wokeness is losing. Yeah, that it's not winning necessarily. Like from the outside looking in, you see the culture war, and it looks like this kind of like unwinnable war by design where all of these different rival factions score exciting,

but never decisive wins. But no one can ever score the final decisive victory. And it seems like that would be the case. And then he goes on, it's not losing either. I think winning and losing implies a level of coherence to the project and materialism to the stakes that simply aren't there. So he's basically saying that wokeness

is not a coherent and legible political project. Right. And I mean, I would say never was about materiality. Right. But I think this reminds me like the point that he's making. My definition, yeah. Is that when anybody kind of thinks they've made, they've like struck the final decisive blow,

like the theater of the war shifts and like resets to like even more undignified and unpalatable terrain. You know, it's like a new tier of mutual embarrassment. And that reminded me a lot of like Curtis Yorven's criticism of Chris Rufo's battle with critical race theory, where he basically talks about how like Rufo is so kind of excited and galvanized by racking up like minor battles,

that he kind of, what's that expression? When you don't see the forest for the trees, yeah. Where he basically like his victories are all tactical and symbolic, they're not strategic. And so like they're like vulnerable to being leveraged against him. And his movement can be kind of turned into a target of like mockery and ridicule or worse.

That's like sort of Yarden's point. And I think Freddie is making a similar point about leftist social justice activists. Like they think they're winning, but they're not. Because they lack coherence and vision. Yeah, they're winning these sort of micro battles of like maybe some, the occasional cancel culture campaign or things of that nature.

Yeah. But yeah, there's no, there's no there there. Right. There's nothing ultimately for them to win. Right. Right? Well, but I think like in general, like I feel like his position is a fundamentally

willful misunderstanding of the role wokeness and leftism more broadly play in the culture at large. Right. And then while he goes on in the second paragraph, he describes the second front in this war, a hidden battlefield on which the social justice movement is slowly losing to the forces of not liberalism, not reaction, not conservatism, not civil liberties,

but anarchy, resistance, revulsion towards piety, the desire for revenge. He goes on, which we can return to, but resistance, revulsion to piety, and desire for revenge all sort of describe to me the tactics of the woke front or whatever you want to call it and to take them for their like what they proclaim to stand for, i.e. social justice rather than the tactics by which they

are attempting to achieve it misses the point. Yeah, the death drive, the unheimlich, the Jungian impulse. This Jungian life, baby. I think that part I'm on board with. I'm like, yeah, like I am like a metaphysical warrior. I don't care about Marxism. I'm like, my fight's a little more spiritual.

So of course it's going to win because no weapon forged against me shall prosper, bitch. No, damn straight. And it's straight up a battle of good versus evil. But Freddie sees kind of like leftism as a political project apart from and in opposition to liberalism, which he is a vocal critic of and rightly so. And he sees kind of the woke wing of leftism

as a deviation from socialism's greater project that ultimately sets the project back. But to me, in reality, both wokeness and anti-wokeness are essential part and parcel of the liberal culture war. He is operating under a profound and I suspect very willful misunderstanding of the role of leftism in American politics. Because to follow that logic to its end

would require him to examine his own role within the overall structure of Queen, yeah. And like, I think we've said this before, but the role of leftism, both the woke and anti-woke variants of leftism, is really to police the perimeters of acceptable discourse in the guise of like performatively disavowing democratic politics, but really

to reinforce the stranglehold of like liberal ideology over everything. And Freddie makes this kind of triple parallel between conservatives and centrists and kind of like Hori old Marxists like me, as if they're like on equal footing within the matrix and they're not, like we all know who's winning. And it's liberals.

Yeah, it's liberals. And we've also like argued this a million times on the podcast, but like what makes an ideology successful? How kind of thoroughgoingly invisible and ubiquitous it is to the point that like it defies categorization or identification, which is why words like neoliberal never stick. Yeah, very well said.

Because they mean like everything and nothing at the same time. Right. And who has ownership over the kind of thoroughly ubiquitous and thoroughgoing ideology liberals. Liberalism is the default setting against which all claims are vetted and contested, hence Alec Shones.

Yeah, wow. Yeah. But to make it seem like there's this kind of like binaristic war, I think, again. Well, even in that way, he's, you know, he invokes the id, for example, and being so preoccupied with late 19th century thought. Like Marx, I don't know.

You would think that one would, yeah, be a little more curious about the id and the unconscious and the psychological forces that like are part of why liberalism is such an entrenched ideology as well. Yeah. And I think like Freddie is very, very smart. Right. And he's very psychologically astute.

And so I don't buy that he's exactly lying to himself because he must, you know, take a, I mean, I don't, it's a little hard for me to parse enough of like a thesis there to even, you know, say if he's lying to himself or not because I don't know. Yeah, but I mean, I was thinking about like yesterday responded to like somebody who was responding to something Amy said by rehashing kind of the take

that the left is bad at the internet or like, you know, the left can't meme. They always, people always say that. I think we've said that. And it's like, well, that relies on, I feel like a very narrow definition of what like a meme is because the left or like the liberal consensus has kind of, they set kind of the memified like norms

and standards of like behavior and conduct and criticism. And so like, he must understand this. And I think his argument again is like very reliant on seeing leftism as like an entity or project apart from like big L liberalism. Right. When in reality, I think leftism is basically at this point, like a bunch of partisan zealots

who are controlled opposition. Like AOC, I mean. Yeah, like and all their media propagandists. Right. Every single Bernie endorsed candidate, they've ran the squad. Yeah, like all those people. And he's, and I think like, yeah, he's not stupid.

And I feel like if you, you know, really cornered him, you probably wouldn't deny that. He probably has a lot of criticisms of the squad and their ilk. Well, it sounds like he knows that they're losing, right? That's what he says basically in that piece is that, you know, he would bet on chaos, which he conceives as the, you know, oppositional force to wokeness.

Yeah. Well, but that's also very convenient that. That doesn't have anything to do with us. But it's very convenient that the opposition to wokeness, which is, you know, like aesthetically and stylistically cringe and off-putting is chaos and nihilism. He denies the forces of opposition, any political coherence, which is not true.

Or spiritual coherence. Yeah, but people, the nihilism. Yeah, I really take Umbridge with. Yeah, but people are opposed to wokeness. And again, more broadly leftism, not because they're cringe and off-putting, but because the policies themselves are scary. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's not. And the tactics are exhausting. Yeah, and like fiendish and devilish. And so his only kind of retort to that is like, well, these people are kind of just like performance artists and aesthetic stylists. And in that passage that you read, this is like from the second half, he goes on, an army of grinning goblins

marches against the woke. That's us, we're the grinning goblins. The yungian goblin. And they take up their knives and syringes of glee. That's also us because we like to shoot drugs. We like to shoot people up with booster vaccines, babe. Well, the forces of social justice trudge on miserable, one more joyless day after another,

hating themselves and each other. I'm not saying the forces of opposition are good. They are indeed bad by their very elementary nature. And that's the part I'm like, what? Well, I'm assuming that that picture of us posing with AJ at the shooting range is used to illustrate. The badness, the elementary badness. Yes, but of course he stops short of making it explicit.

Well, that's the thing. For plausible deniability. And then he gets all butthurt that people are calling him incoherent. But it's like, why don't you say what you mean then? Which he kind of goes on to in his other piece. Yeah, and he's basically saying the agents of chaos and nihilism have stepped in and are winning

because you have failed. He sounds horny, honestly. I thought he sounded a little jealous, but I'm here to tell him there's really nothing to be jealous of. But he's saying you failed in a very specific way by succumbing to reactivity and outrage, by fighting tactical and symbolic battles. And I mean, the point he's making is basically

like, well, your hatred of these forces is misguided and performative. Whereas my hatred of these forces is well-informed and well-intentioned. I sent you the piece that he wrote in The New York Times. I think you get more clues as to his mindset if you read that piece. Yeah.

NYT guest opinion piece. Defeated. Yeah, and it's called Democratic Socialists need to take a hard look in the mirror. And his thesis is sort of like, it's time for young socialists and progressive Democrats to recognize that our beliefs might not be popular enough to win elections consistently.

It does us no favors to pretend otherwise. What too many young socialists and progressive Democrats don't seem to realize is that it's perfectly possible that the Democratic Party is biased against our beliefs and that our beliefs simply aren't very popular. And in the Times piece, he makes the case that on the left, there is this tendency to attribute their failures to the sort of strength

and will of the Democratic Party to sabotage all of their candidates who would otherwise be viable because, of course, socialism would be popular if there were not these bureaucratic barriers in place. Yeah, and rigging and corruption. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he cites India Walton's recent Lawson Buffalo and Bernie Sanders to losses in 2016 and 2020 as examples.

And he claims that socialists are in denial. He says, we are held back. The thinking frequently goes not by the popularity of our ideas, but by the forces of reaction marshaled against us. And he advises that socialists have to be ruthless with themselves. But I feel like he never bothers to take his own advice

and be ruthless with his own self and ask why so many socialist beliefs beyond his baseline, which I think he says is like, what does he say? Absolute moral quality of every person and a fierce commitment to fighting for the worst off with whatever social and governmental means are necessary. He never asks why beyond that they're so unpopular. Could there be something about those policies

that makes them unpopular because of their content and not for the failure of their advocates to persuasively market them or the fact that. Well, that is part of it also. That they fail to market them persuasively. But then is that a feature or a bug? Like, what's the role? Yeah.

Well, corporate media Democrats are always going to be against the project of socialism, which by definition threatens corporate power and economic inequality. It's always going to be an uphill battle. But at the end of the day, whose team are you on? Do you continue voting for corporate establishment Democrats, or do you break with the Democratic Party

and say, like, enough is enough? Yeah. Well, do you think Freddie thinks enough is enough? It's difficult to parse. I don't know. I would again. I would love to ask him. Yeah, we should call him up.

Yeah, we should invite him on the pot. He's not on. I bet he'd love that. Is he in New York? I think so. Mm-hmm. I wanted to confront him about calling us goblins. I was like, but I saw he was on.

Apparently, he's on Reddit. I can't tell. I don't know. I can't. But I think it's just like, socialist policies and candidates aren't merely off putting on an aesthetic level again. I think people, like your average everyday person,

does not trust the people who are kind of the socialist candidates to implement those policies. I mean, Medicare for All was popular. Yeah. Like, I don't have the stats on me, because as I said, I emptied my brain earlier. But it's like, I think the majority, like when Bernie was still viable and sort of running

on Medicare for All, that was like a very popular policy proposal. Yeah, but I mean, subsequent proposals that they've made, many of which are unactionable, have been totally off putting. Like a gain you deal. Yeah, and defund the police, which wasn't a real policy. But that's not something to do with socialism, right?

But he's talking about like, he's acknowledging the fact that the woke wing that's like leading with these policies is making socialism unpalatable for everyone else. OK. And but I don't know what he proposes to do about that, because what exactly is he saying? Like, we have to get an office and not tell them about our weird off putting policies

and then, you know, spring them on people? Is that what he's saying? I don't know. Well, I think he would. Genetic and rhetorical, but like. The weird and off putting ones like defunding the police, you know, maybe the case could be made that those ought not be part of that.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with socialism. Yeah, but he's saying that that's like basically, like in many post cities, right, and he's he's acknowledged that this is like who the face of leftism now. Oh, oh, oh. And that's his worry. And I think that's sort of what he was getting at in that in the New York Times piece without being overly, you know.

Right. Colloquial about it, which, you know, I think a lot of people wouldn't have gotten. Well, socialism used to be extremely unpopular. And when he refers to himself as kind of like a classic stuffy Marxist, I think he's referring to that that mode of like pre 2016 pre-Trumpian, like, you know, actual socialists who are kind

of like, you know, bookish, marginal people. I mean, Occupy, I guess, had to do. There was sort of like there was Occupy and then Bernie. Right. It was the first sort of like even remotely viable, like, democratically, democratic socialists, whatever. And then with Trump, I mean, the DS, you know, like the DSA membership, like grew exponentially post-Trump

because there was, I think, a brief moment where, you know, if people really believe that Trump represented this like neo-fascist threat, that the way to counteract it wasn't with more like neoliberalism, all like the Clinton crime family, but was like with like a push towards like a legitimate left. But then we all saw what happened with the DSA when they're like, whisper meetings and purity policing.

And it's just the same conversation, you know, clapping. Yeah, it's just like the left eating itself vampire castle shit, like over and over and over. Yeah. And that's sort of like what he's getting at. And then, you know, later in the week, he wrote this follow-up to the original sub-stack called,

It Could Be So Much Better Than This, where he accused kind of- Which was about what a good writer he is. Yeah. And he like accuses his critics of being cowards. Dots, does protest too much, yeah. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Where he accuses them of being cowards,

like who habitually shy away from saying what they mean in favor of what he calls quote, chumming the water. I thought chumming the water was meant like, it was sort of a Twitter technique of like getting sharks to gather around someone, like doing a tweet sort of perfunctory and vague and kind of a, you know, taps into like a collective need to like chum all the sharks.

Yes, yeah, exactly. And he says that this basically kind of sets the tone for all of the so-called discourse and like chokes off the potential for any new ones to bait. And I think I agree with that. That's so far so goes. That seems like how Twitter works, yeah. Yeah, he's a little hyperbolic about, you know,

the internet being. A force of, yeah. Here's a description. Chumming the water is a practice in media Twitter where someone will drop the name of a disfavored person in an ostensibly neutral way, knowing full well that because the person is disfavored, the replies and quote tweets will become a pylon,

a pylon which juices engagement without any meaningful propositional content risk or thoughtfulness. I'm far from alone in fulfilling this function in media Twitter, serving as the free square on a people we hate bingo card. Michael Tracy's name immediately comes to mind. It's a fundamentally passive aggressive technique,

a way to incite abuse without owning it and an easy vehicle to mine our teas and likes, not in the virtues of your tweet, but simply drawing from that form's addiction to generating insider status through the identification of community hated figures. And I agree with Fred. Yeah, babe, you should try being on succession, okay?

Like those, the succession fan community is vicious. Wait, are they? Is there a fan? Yeah, there's a big succession fan. I think they're all teens. But yeah, I'm sort of a, you know, it's an easy way to be like, oh, Dasha again. And then everyone's like, totally.

Yeah, like we hate her. Well, chumming the water is exactly. You're new. You're not the incumbent. So, no. You're like, but I have this sort of- It's a question I'm familiar to them, so they have to reject you before they can accept you.

But I also have this sort of like reputation that precedes me as being bad, even though no one can really articulate why. I don't know the horse. I mean, they don't know about that. They haven't seen the body count video yet, but. But yeah, they're like their frontal cortexes haven't fully developed yet, so they're just-

And they won't develop things to the internet, but. Yeah, I'm familiar. He's describing accurately a process that he, I guess, was subject to. Yeah, this is correct. I mean, and he's right in saying that it's really kind of nothing personal. And very often you think you're the target,

but you're just the collateral of like, sharks or vultures circling. And he's correct that he and Michael Tracey and people like them are often the whipping boys. But it's very ironic to me that he makes this point while cryptically using a photo of us to illustrate an earlier post. Like, what does he think he's doing?

Exactly. But issuing a tacit referendum on the fact that we are bad people in chaos. Elementaryly bad. But then in that piece, he goes on to sort of talk about red scare. Yeah. And says the post isn't really about red scare as such,

but the connection is that red scares a strong example of the threat to social justice's hegemony and what it is not. Red scare does not try to convince anyone of anything and it doesn't need to. Okay. Red scare does not have political power. True. Red scare has soft power, arguable.

And then he says, 19 year olds who list their pronouns on Instagram and never say black people, only black bodies and otherwise do the ritual ablutions of social justice. Nevertheless, listen to red scare and shortle every time they say the word retard. I don't think that's really true. Yeah, I don't.

I mean, what does he know that we don't? Yeah. And I mean, according to him, we're not respectable, but we're cool. We're mean girls who smoke cigarettes and talk shit. And according to him, Alex Jones is kind of the epitome of this old vanguard of opposition to social justice. And we're the epitome of the quote, new access.

And us teaming up for like the photo op is evidence of this realignment. It's just shock, shock solidarity. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, we're pithy way of putting it and, you know. And also just like our grand tradition of interviewing hot, but out of shape old man. Who know a thing or two about how the world works.

But there's a reason I asked Alex Jones that very like leading and loaded question about whether he found the blind ideological fervor of social justice warriors. Relatable. And Alex Lee Moyer chimed in and pointed out that, well, he was an old school social justice warrior. Yeah.

I mean, this is a guy who made his career opposing the Bush crime family and. Rebuilding Waco. Yeah, and standing up for who he thought were the victims of the establishments. And, you know, he's we're, he's almost a guy like Glenn Greenwald. I think Glenn Greenwald had obviously a more respectable

and legitimate career, but he's also a guy who like the consensus about him flipped when he stopped paying lip service to like the Democratic party line. Yeah, I have more. I can open another bottle of wine. I wouldn't mind, should we? Yeah.

Yeah, I'll, I'll do it. I'll pause. Okay. We're back. We're back. We're back. Sorry, I was just asking what we were on about. Freddie.

I took a hit of the red. Of the red wine? Yeah. Yeah. Is that I went back to try. I also took like half a CBD gummy earlier because I was he stressed out. He was stressing it with mellow me out.

No, I'm not stressed. Placebo effect? No, I'm just like kind of like riled up because I find these kind of debates like internecine debates to be like interesting. Of course. Stroke my autism. Definitely.

But yeah, no, it's it's weird because he again accuses his critics rightly of like chumming the water and then like does the same thing to us. And it's not that we need defending and I'm not mad at him and I don't feel like we were like unfairly treated and we can hold our own.

But it never occurs to him that we might be in a similar position. Me, us and him. Yeah. That like people routinely will like, you know, I've seen them do it to both of us and to the podcast in general where people will invoke the name.

You're right, of course. To provoke some kind of. Engagement. Engagement. At the end of the day, yeah. It is just that like a dopamine rush of. Yeah. People telling you you're right.

And it never advances the conversation. It always feels very slimy. Yeah. Well, I found it, I don't know. And he was obviously deliberately obtuse in his initial post, though he did say, you know, elementary, terribly bad.

And then he kind of like, you know, circles back and says, yeah, we're not respectable. Our gay army as a mass rides in difference to the mores that its members dutifully honor as individuals in so many other contexts. Red Scare also shows the cracks and wokeness as most impregnable fortresses. I don't know about that either.

Yeah. I think it's a lot of, I mean, it's a podcast. Yeah, and I don't. At the end of the day, no podcast is really respectable. No, they're not. But also like, I'm really not, I'm not anti-woke. I'm interested in wokeness as a defiance of reality. I'm pro-reality.

Yeah. Like I'm not interested in culture war as such. I'm interested in what culture war entails. And I know that we talk about like culture war items, you know, day in and day out on this one, but I hope that we reach some like slightly greater insights. Yeah. And I feel like, I don't know.

At this point, we've been doing this podcast for like three years, you know? And it feels like the conversations people are having about it are still very perfunctory. Well, I guess. But who are these red scare girls? And what do they want? And they're so nihilistic and they smoke cigarettes

and it's like, I haven't, yeah, hello, we don't. I definitely don't be doing coke. But, yeah, I'm, that's fine. And I'm like kind of a nerd to that, but I'm just surprised that. I would just like to see. Freddie would allow himself as such a smart guy to fall into that trap while trying to illustrate the point.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah, precisely. And it's like, it never occurs to him again that like maybe us talking to Alex Jones was again, not an empty or cheap provocation, but an attempt to A, have fun, but B also illustrate that exact point. Yeah, have fun above all.

Yes. But also, I don't know, I feel, I don't know. I think it is interesting that he would invoke these, you know, literally Jungian like kind of pagan animal spirits. He says, in the follow-up, he says, I write essays that change nothing. Mines are changed by animal spirits. There are those who look for lessons on how to live,

not in dull and boring lists of political roles or in abstract arguments, but in fashion and aesthetics and everything conveyed and unsaid. Adolescents don't get radicalized by NPR, but by mean girls who smoke cigarettes and talk shit. We're not radicalizing. Exactly, and then that there is even no discrepancy in that like apparently we stand for nothing,

so how could we actually radicalize someone? Yeah, that's smart. Radicalizing would imply that you radicalize people toward a particular tendency, conservative agenda, like nationalism or like traditionalism or something. But the most interesting part of the follow-up was not what he said about us or Jones. It was like this excerpt from his old writing

where he basically talks about how he too has been complicit in contributing to the state of affairs, like in his own words by saying a lot while saying nothing. And it's interesting because it's interesting not so much for it's like self-aware, even self-effacing tone, but for kind of the level of self-deceit that he persists in maintaining throughout. Freddie is such a frustrating character

because he's such a good writer, but he's so lying to himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, he's like completely like, I feel like wedded to this idea that American leftism is salvageable were it not for like a few bad apples. And it's not because I'm not being I'm not a political conservative, by the way, never have been, never will be. But this is a profoundly alienating elite movement.

And if you boil down the way he does sort of his mission to the like, you know, inalienable morality of, you know, every individual and the protecting of the worst off, you know, it might be time to evaluate maybe a more nonlinear way of achieving those like moral goals. Well, and he also denies his political opponents, the possibility that they have moral goals of their own and that they're capable of like an ethics.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I actually don't think Alex Jones would disagree with the way that Freddy boils down socialism into this like, inalienable morality, whatever, you know. Yeah, and I think actually Alex Jones would probably agree. I mean, he said this before, he said it in Alex Lee's documentary where he was like, well, I was interested in liberalism and conservatism and there's elements of each that I liked

and didn't like. But he claims kind of he claims that like, wokeness is a social and not political phenomenon and he makes this parallel with paranoia, militarism and ultra patriotism. And he claims that a return to these quote, mandated attitudes of the past is possible and like a blink of an eye basically. But especially in the case of the latter,

it's unfair to make that equivalence because ultra patriotism as like a national ideology is impossible because the nation state is impossible in the age of globalism. Like you see what's going on in France right now where they're like warring over American imported pronouns and it's hilarious to watch and sad to watch France kind of like struggle to preserve its national and cultural integrity.

They're fighting a losing battle. Because there's no ideological like top down incentive for patriotism or nationalism to prosper. So that's, it won't. It won't, yeah. Because all the elites are like, all the captains they're all in Switzerland. Technology.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think like the other thing that Freddie won't acknowledge is that like wokeness is really kind of like the lingua franca of the political establishment. Go on. Like it's, I know what that word means. But pretend I don't.

It's the way that they do. It's the kind of moral code that lets them force through their like political demands and their agenda because it seems so like progressive and morally unassailable. Kneeling in your, yeah. Kingdom cloths and whatnot. Yeah.

And this is, and he says like that the opposite tendency is not my political tribe is not really a political tribe at all, but is an elemental force of resistance that can't be harnessed or fully understood like chaos and nihilism. Yeah. But I don't think that's true. I think the people that are opposed to this are again

not opposed to like the kind of circus freak show of wokeness. They're opposed to what it would actually mean materially for people. I mean, some might be, some certainly are chaos agents. You know, but I think, I don't know. But not in a blanket way. Not in a blank way, no. And our project in particular, I think, is humanistic.

Yeah, I would agree with that. You know, yeah. But for me, at least, yeah, it isn't political. It's spiritual, metaphysical, whatever. Yeah, but I think the spirituality and the metaphysics inform the politics. Yeah. Like, do you think?

Yeah, like, I don't know. Like, I know that this is going to sound crazy because, like, I have a reputation as being not only, like, a mean girl, but kind of irredeemably cruel and insanely stupid. But I want my only hope in, like, getting into, like, criticism or whatever was showing people that there's, like, a different way

and that you can treat yourself and others with dignity and respect. Yeah. And that all good flows from that. Yeah. I would co-sign that. Yeah. But also as, you know, as an artist,

I do believe in certain inalienable freedoms. Yeah, like transgressive ones. Yeah. Sure. Like, I don't know. But it's interesting also, like, in that follow-up piece where Freddie, like, cites this whole paragraph of his, it's, like, kind of, you know, it's

supposed to point to the fact that it's, like, a little clunky and a little cringe. And, you know, I feel like his self-awareness, as long as I've been reading him, is, like, kind of, like, an old ruse. It's an old trick. It's really meant to stake out a moral high ground for himself. His problem in a nutshell is that he's a very talented guy.

He's a very exciting writer. He wants to be the final boss of leftism. He wants to be, you know, the voice of reason, the only sane and sensible guy in a sea of total psychos and grifters. Give it up, Freddie. Yeah. And it's not worth it.

He's the one consigning himself to the leftist ghetto. He needs to get out of there. He needs to exit the vampire's castle. Totally. And, like, he doesn't have to abandon his socialist principles. Yeah. I.e. his moral principles.

He's confusing socialism for morality here. If Freddie has written circles around most people, he could take that material and write one or three books that would be bestsellers. He wrote a book, huh? Did he? I don't know. He did.

Oh, he did. OK. I would do. Never mind. Maybe my thesis is. He wrote a book recently because then I read, what's his name? I went on his podcast, Ben Burgess, wrote a response to Freddie's piece that I read.

But it was pretty long and a little wonky. Just kind of got into the nitty gritty of how medical Medicare for All was actually viable, which is why I was saying that earlier, because I read a man writing about it. But ultimately, it was just a little boring. And he's also obviously very married to leftism, which has to do with coming from a family, I think, of leftists. I think it's very, also, you know,

connect much like Alex Jones connected to his early childhood. And I guess, yeah, I sort of am of the opinion that it is ultimately a project worth abandoning if you really claim to stand for the things that you claim to stand for, which are fundamentally like humanistic, moral ideas about the way that society ought to be run. I don't think socialism is how we're going to get it.

No, and again, I think at the end of the day, leftists spill a lot of ink. They make a lot of noise about criticizing the Democratic Party, but they fundamentally stand with the Democratic Party against the Republican Party. That's another question I asked Alex Jones, right? Why is conservatism, particularly the religious right, such a boogie man still, even though they're not really

a serious contender on any global scale? Like, I understand that there's pockets in America that are run by Republicans that make it harder for women and poor people to get abortions and seek health care and the sort of thing, but they're not a global player. Yeah, no, they're far from, yeah. A clinging to that. Powerful in a deep way.

Yeah, and clinging to that is just, it seems to be a fairly, it's like a losing battle, but also the Democrats really do win by being losers. And they... Defeat suits. Yeah. Yeah. It looks great on them.

I wish Freddie the best and have high hopes for him, but it feels a little like queasy and iffy to be treated kind of vaguely, implicitly unfairly in a piece where he's arguing for like fair conduct and the triumph of morality over the forces of evil. Yeah. Right. I think everybody deserves a fair shake.

I agree. Yeah. So I'm just saying that felt crazy to me. For him to, yeah, malign us while, yeah. And it's funny. He's got a lot of blind spots, Freddie. Well, that's the thing. I think this is like a feudal and foolish inquiry

on my part that I should cease. But he feels to me like a guy who's too smart to be that unself-aware. I know. I know. He's really relishing in his own, I don't know. He thinks he's so clever that he picked up on this chaotic strain of aesthetic quasi-political activity

or something, but it's not, it's a very shallow understanding of. Well, it's almost like he wants people to acknowledge how talented and clever he is, but also feel sympathy for him, which is impossible because if you really are that clever and talented, then you're untouchable and then like critique should roll off your shoulders. Yeah.

And you don't have to make a whole follow-up thing about why it's okay for you to be experimental in your prose or whatever, because you just have the confidence of your writing, which he said. Yeah. And by the way, I think it's totally okay to be experimental in your prose and I don't mean to single him out outside of like the docket because like

this is advice I would also give myself, you know? Yeah. But like, you know, it also bugs me when people have done this many times, but it bugs me when people who I think know better do it. I don't like being called like a nihilist or like an it girl or a cool girl or a mean girl. I'm not any of those things.

I'm a old-school hardline moralist always from day one. That's why I'm so annoying and like cringy and everybody knows that. And I feel like Freddie, like I will go to toe to toe with him at like, yep. I will out moralize the moralist any day. Oh, for sure. Definitely.

Yeah. You know, I think like I- My money's on you, Anna, for sure. And not because you're like- Chaotic, cool, cigarette, smoking. You slut. Yeah. Slut.

But what people don't realize about all people, and I think Alexia is a good example, is that like people play certain characters or in personas on TV. But the reality is a lot more nuanced, but also a lot more depressing. Yeah. I mean, you'd think I was just some kind of charming

public relations crisis publicist. If you saw my performance on Sixth Session. But actually I'm a devious little devilish broadcaster. I mean, yeah, he also says that in his follow-up, basically that me being on Sixth Session is proof that we are like cracking this like woke facade. But it doesn't prove anything other than that you're like a working actress who's been doing it for a long time.

I've been working as an actress before, yeah. Busting her hump. Yeah. And that like reality is actually really multifaceted and a lot of people at HBO, for example, don't care about leftists or what people on Twitter are upset about. Well, I would say like a lot of people

probably just don't listen to the podcast and the ones who do are sympathetic to it, not because they're cryptofascists. Because they're fucking normal. But because they're normies, yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's really what I think is unsaid in these dual Freddy pieces,

which I don't think he is even cognizant of because he, by his own admission, is sort of poisoned by the internet, which is that like there are great like swaths of industry and culture and humanity who don't care about whether someone is woke or anti-woke. I'm not on TV because I'm anti-woke. Yeah, well, no, and he's also,

but he's also like, I can sympathize with this a lot as somebody who's like basically shy and not very confident. Like he's also allergic to his own potential. Like he refuses to take the opportunities that are presented to him. So anybody else- He wrote a damn book.

Yeah, he wrote a book, but he like, you know, failed to- But he even says, I write essays and they change nothing. But that's not true. He's a little more credit. He's a very influential blogger. Yeah. And look what Mark Fisher did. Everybody else's success looks to him

as this like kind of like supernatural thing that's like a Faustian bargain and it's really not. It's just like honestly hard work. The book is called The Cult of Smart, How Our Broken Education System Perpetuates Social Injustice. I guess it's about academia. I mean, that sounds fairly reasonably interesting. Not to me, sorry.

I'll never, I mean, I would read it. I'm like- You're into that kind of, yeah. I'm into that kind of like spurg shit. Also like, I'll never forget the post that he wrote. I don't know, maybe 2014, 2015, where he talked about like subscription models, like quip toothbrushes, like little like techie neoliberal,

like it was like before like hers and hymns. And he really nailed that. But I don't know, it just seems like a lot of leftism is like ghettoizing yourself and then blaming everybody else for your failure. Amen, says, yeah. Totally. And you know, like I said this a million times,

but you know, it sucks even more than finding out that somebody had to suck dick for a role, is finding out that they didn't. Yeah, totally, finding out that that's, you can't attribute it to their anti-woke agenda, whatever. Yeah. We can wrap it up. How long have we been going?

Hour 20. Oh, that's not bad. That's a lot of time. That's a lot of time for Friday. Yeah. Hope he listens. Hope he listens. Hope he listens.

I really hope he. An hour and 20 minutes. He clogged his book for no reason. That's reasonably flattering, right? Yeah, I think, I mean, we're not attacking him. I really hope he listens to us because I have intuitive faculties as a woman that he should heed, yeah.

Yeah. And then I'm very psychologically perceptive and I can tell something's not right. You're making yourself sound like a force of nihilism. I'm a witch, yeah, is what I'm saying. And I've put a spell on him. As Jordan Peterson said, kill it before it lays eggs.

I hope he's okay. Jordan Peterson. I hope he's recovered from his Benz addiction. Would you ever have him on the pod? Yeah, of course. Well, my manager asked me who really doesn't not a fan of Alex Jones, obviously, was like, asked if he would have Rachel Maddow on the pod

and I was like, yeah. I was like, she would never come on. She would never do it. But yeah, totally. You heard it here for his rage. Yeah. Like, yeah, I'll have, yeah, it's not, that would be an interesting conversation.

Yeah, I have PTSD from the time my mother told me and my sister, if you ever want to listen to an interesting young woman with a cool short haircut, listen to Rachel Maddow. And I was like, are you trying to say that we look like MSNBC lesbians? Yeah. Was this pre-Russia gate?

Cause no. Damn. No. Damn. Yeah. I mean, people be liking Rachel Maddow. They do, yeah. Way more people like Rachel Maddow than like us.

That's true. It just seems shocking, but I know. But I like the thing that off topic, and we can wrap it up, that Matt Taibbi said about Rachel Maddow that like when he knew her, she was like a smart and fiery and funny young woman and that like she actually did make a Faustian bargain.

Yeah. Yeah. Which I believe. Couldn't be us. Yeah. Cool. Well. All right.

The voided doing my racist, the Indian-Texio question. You don't have to get into the new Twitter CEO. We wish him well. He's doing a great, they're doing a great job at Twitter already. So I can't even imagine how the app would get any better. Yeah.

Dasha, if you got banned tomorrow, would you be upset? From Twitter? Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. I was just thinking how like famous last words, but I wouldn't care the second time around. I just don't even use,

I mean, I was wishing the other day that I didn't have a burgeoning career so that I could tweet about how COVID is fake every second of the day. But I was like, I can't. So I was like, this app is basically useless to me anyway. Cause I'm not even allowed to speak my mind. So go ahead.

Yeah. You're muzzled like one of those Fauci Beagles. Nobody's stopped me. Exactly. Fly's eating my sweet puppy head. Fucked what Fauci did. And I'll never forgive him for it. He made a Fauci and Faustian.

Fauci and bargain. Okay. See you in hell. That's enough. See you in hell. Time to sign off.