Rob Beckett and Josh Widdicombe's Parenting Hell - S01 EP68: Philippa Perry

Episode Date: December 18, 2020

ROB BECKETT & JOSH WIDDICOMBE'S 'LOCKDOWN PARENTING HELL' S01 EP68: Philippa PerryJoining us in the studio this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) during the lockdown and beyond is the brilliant psychotherapist and author, Philippa Perry. Philippa's fantastic book 'The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read (and Your Children Will be Glad That You Did)' is out in paperback on the 31st of December. Enjoy. Rate and Review. Thanks. xxx If you want to get in touch with the show here's how:EMAIL: [e-mail]: @lockdownparent INSTAGRAM: @lockdown_parentingA 'Keep It Light Media' Production Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Josh Middicombe. And I'm Rob Beckett. Welcome to Lockdown Parenting Hell. The show in which Rob and I discuss what it's like to be a parent during lockdown, which I would say can be a little tricky. So, in an effort to make some kind of sense of the current situation... And to make me feel better about my increasingly terrible parenting skills... Each episode we'll be chatting to a famous parent about how well they're coping.

Or hopefully not. And we will be hearing from you, the listener, with your tales of lockdown parenting woe. Because let's be honest, none of us know what we're doing. Because let's be honest, none of us know what we're doing. Hello and welcome to Lockdown Parenting Hell with... My bucket. Can you say Josh Whittakin? Josh Whittakin. Well done, you can have a chocolate now.

Amazing. I mean, the efficiency there, that was instant. Well done, have a chocolate, see you later. That mum does not fuck about. And also Lauren, who is, I'm presuming that is. there that that was instant well done have a chocolate see you later that was yeah that mom does not fuck about and also lauren who is um i'm presuming that is yeah you know people have a voice they're used for talking to their child she's the first person i've ever met that doesn't have a different voice for talking to a child maybe if you could just say uh well beckett all right yeah yep goodbye it's a chocolate see you later she sounds like she's talking to a pa like in the

middle of a busy day okay cool yeah just get those flights booked and uh just change up meeting for next week thank you okay cool yeah yeah just basically just whatever fits you with tier three thank you very much cool next call yep what's that yeah cool there's a chocolate bye say that name oh hello oh you're my child are you brilliant how's homework good okay yeah you're a yeah okay cool see you later she's efficient Lauren's efficient. Would love to know what her job is. That is Niamh. She's three in January, and we live in a beautifully picturesque borough of Croydon.

Oh, lovely stuff. Also, here is a tip for parents who, like myself, have found themselves in a situation where they have to isolate for 14 days because some kid has tested positive in their kid's bubble at school. Write numbers and words on pieces of paper and hide them all around the house. Sit on the sofa and shout out words and numbers for your children to find. Ta-da, homeschooling. That is good.

So efficient, isn't she? Especially if you're like, because mine's in the first year of reception, like they are doing certain words that they've got to get to know. So that's quite good practice. You've got to practice that anyway. To be fair to Lauren, she's got a five-year-old, a three-year-old and a two-month-old.

Oh my God, no wonder she's efficient. She's doing 14 days of lockdown. No wonder she's speaking in such a monotone. Is that no wonder there's no joy in her voice? You're just getting through the day, Lauren. I get it. Yeah, you know, you're wallpapering words over your walls just to keep the kids busy.

I've been there. You've got to do what you've got to do. How are you, Rob? I'm good. I'm not too bad. I've opened the treasure chest. That is our Instagram messages. It's like the Wild West on there, mate.

Is it? There's no formalities of an email. Because normally an email, it's always like, hi, big fan of the pod. And also because it comes from an official account fan of the pod and also because it comes from an official account and name and also because it's a bit more secret on instagram because you could have a picture you could have no picture it could be locked we've got one here which is quite exciting um can we see a picture and or get producer michael's surname so we can stalk him on behalf of all women listening to the tom allen episode so it sounds like producer michael's got

sexy voice because that lady seemed very keen on producer Michael. But, you know, I think, you know, voices can be deceiving. He's disgusting. All right, guys. Here he is. Here he is. Sexy Michael.

Michael, have you been told you've had a sexy voice before? Well, I have actually. It's not the first time I've heard it, yeah. Oh. Michael's been producing up his actually. It's not the first time I've heard it, yeah. Oh! I think Michael's been producing up his voice. It's more bassy now. Michael, yeah, that is, it sounds, I don't know if because someone's pointed out it's sexy,

it sounds sexy, or you're making it sexier subconsciously, but what, would you say, is this your normal voice then, would you say, or do you put on a talking on the air voice? I'd say if my normal voice is an eight, I've gone to an 11 just as a treat oh that's so we should maybe take requests of things to say maybe can you say i've just put the kids both down they're going to sleep for 12 hours you can have a lion because i think for our listenership that could absolutely blow the roof off what's her name um it's good if you don't do

the name then then every woman who's listening can enjoy it. Okay, let's do this for Lucy because she's reached out. So just say, Lucy, I'll put the kids to bed and tomorrow you can have a lion. Hey, Lucy, I've put the kids to bed. I've run you a nice bath. Why don't you have a lion tomorrow and I'll take them to school? Even I'm up for it and it's not much. I'm going to say it. Very rarely to your partner do you say, hey, before you say their name.

I know, but he's trying to create the ideal scenario. Not, it's your fucking turn to do it. I did it last time and I've got work in a minute, which is how it normally sounds. So, Michael, thank you. And I think Lucy's going to really enjoy that. Yeah, very good. That's a Christmas present for Lucy.

We've got some cow tongue debate coming in. I was going to say yeah go on to me again i really more and more i'm i think bedtime is i'm just obsessed with how overrated it is rob i know this is the main thing that you talk about is how much you hate bedtime i i enjoy the rest so much more than bedtime it's crap. But what about when they're all like clean and cozy in their pyjamas? Yeah, but that's the last bit of bedtime. I know what you mean. But I'm not a massive fan of it.

I do think it's overrated. How would you rank the following things? Bedtime. Yeah. Including bath. Yeah. The first 20 minutes of the day yeah car journeys are you just listing things you hate well yeah i'm putting the things that i think might be in competition i'm not

going to put also as the worst things the most overrated things the car journey is the first 20 minutes of the day and the first 20 minutes they're so bleak the slow realization of what you've done to your life but after 25 minutes of the coffee you put that to the back of your mind and carry on the fucking grind is that what you're saying i think the the first 10 minutes of the day are tough but i'd actually say then the following two hours i'm absolutely on top of my game if i haven't had any alcohol in my system. You're peaking. Which is normally almost always the case at the moment. Yeah.

I mean, in the last three years. I was watching the boxing and I got that perfect pint drafting and I had three pints of beer and I was absolutely battered. I've not been drinking for weeks and months. I've not been going out. I've not been going out for dinners. You can't do anything, can you? I was so drunk. I felt awful the next day i couldn't cope it's pathetic it is um

but if i haven't been drinking the the time between say say she wakes up at 6 30 from 6 40 to 8 40 i am fucking invincible i kick in at about 10 a.m i can't cope in the morning and then i have such a 9 a.m dip when I'm like, oh, my God, I've given everything. I've given it all. I've given it all. I've gone too early. It's like when a crap team plays Liverpool in the FA Cup third round,

like League Three, and they just absolutely go for it the first half. And in the last 20 minutes, they score six. We've got nothing left in the tank. We've got some more cow tongue stuff here. It's a story that won't go away. This is from some guy on Instagram, agound85. Nothing makes sense, does it,

in the new social media? What kind of name is that? Mr. Agound? We are so old. We're talking about how you can't handle three pints if you don't understand social media. But what I do understand is Brexit and we need it. Okay, guys?

I just want to get some bloody independence back. Do you remember when there was like middle-aged comics that thought we were those awful young comics? And now we're the middle-aged comics, Rob. But we don't think the young people are awful. We just don't understand them. Yes, but not that I don't understand them, but I don't begrudge the

youth i'm excited by the youth i find it funny and endearing and likable when you see young people just going mental and going for it i don't say they're going oh god they're idiots it's stupid i think brilliant gotta be a lunatic so i think that's the difference you will get old you will get middle-aged you won't be able to hold your drink forever but as long as you don't hate everyone else while that's happening i think you'll be okay do you know what i mean because it's mainly jealousy you know what that's uh there's our christmas message to the nation as long as you don't hate everyone you're gonna be okay exactly it's a lot of time you waste a lot of time hating people don't you um anyway this is cow tongue

gate anyway back to the cow tongues someone once brought some cow tongue into our local pub i was basically if you didn't hear on previous episodes how funny cow's tongues are and kids love them um anyway someone brought some cow tongue into local pub for a snack my brother refused to eat the end of the tongue because the cow would have used it to lick its own ass this led into a massive drunk debate about whether or not a cow is able to lick its own ass i personally don't think a cow is flexible enough and even though it has a long tongue not enough that's not long enough to lick its own ass. Any chance you could clear this argument up? Thanks, Adam. I agree, it's not flexible enough, is it?

No, it hasn't got the neck or the agility to lick its own ass. It's not a cat. No, there's no way. It could lick its own ear and lick its own nostril. Sure. Can it lick its own ass?

Not for the one to try and it can't, but it can't. It cannot reach it. But I think it would if it could, if that helps solve the argument, Adam. Thoughts, Josh? I that like uh the cow's not gonna be able to lick his own ass but also i don't know if that's the reason not to eat a tongue that's been brought into a pub yeah on the side though i agree with that i mean whether it's touched anus or not i would not eat the end of a tongue brought into a pub no i think that's something we can all agree on no there's bigger issues at play than yeah

a hypothetical anus we've got this from rebecca stark um fuzzy thanks for bringing me so much joy every week secondly i've just been reading the top baby names of 2020. I'm pregnant, not just for a morning browse. And the article I read from Baby Centre said that the number of babies registered as Malcolm this year has doubled. Whoa, from one to two? Oh, you're good, Josh. Do you know what? You've always got a 30-yarder hidden away, haven't you?

Do you know what I mean? Just a bit of fun. Oh, out of nowhere, top corner from the Widdicombe there. It said the baby has doubled, baby centre,

put it down to people watching Malcolm X during lockdown. But surely it's all down to people listening to your podcast. You know, I'd like to say

it's probably 50-50 split between us and Malcolm X on the name, don't you think? I think it's impossible for people to tell and you've got to say that surely our market

is the naming kids market. So if well yeah i mean i'm not saying pregnant women don't watch the malcolm x film i'm just saying there's probably you know more pregnant women listening to this than watching that over the summer potentially wouldn't you say i'd say that's 100 true i've got an email on a similar thing oh okay and i want you to make the decision greetings from canada oh yeah so my partner and i have started distracting ourselves with british telly during the lockdown in march from taskmaster we started you're another contestant stand-up etc etc perhaps i've missed it uh we're a few episodes behind they haven't missed it but i'm

interested to know if josh's daughter has ever earned a Gavin and Malcolm style moniker of her own. Oh, yeah. We haven't asked. In case it's an issue of being out of ideas, I can offer three. So here's three. Yeah. And you can choose, Rob. Yep.

Lionel. Oh, I like that. Clive. Yep. Or Bramwell. Bramwell's left field, isn't it? Yeah. I've never heard of Bramwell as a name. No. I'm going to rule out Bramwell. So youwell's left field, isn't it? Yeah. I've never heard of Bramwell as a name.

No. I'm going to rule out Bramwell, so you can go Clive or Lionel. Well, the thing is, when you hear Lionel, what do you think of first, Richie or Messi? Lionel Messi, 100%. Yeah, because I think there's a generation gap there. People would go think of Richie before Messi. Yeah, the other one is, do you remember the sitcom As Time Goes By with Judi Dench and

Geoffrey Palmer? Yeah. I think he was called Lionel in that. That's the only other Lionel I can think of. I think Clive, Lionel, I like Clive. Clive Widdicombe? Yeah, Clive. Let's go with Clive. Yeah, go with Clive so we can refer to her as Clive. Okay, we're going to go with my daughter as Clive from now on. Thank you, Julia.

There are Malcolm's around, aren't there? There's Malcolm Tucker is a big character in the thick of it. Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah. Malcolm, the right back. The right back called Malcolm for Brazil. Just called Malcolm.

I'm obsessed with Brazilian footballers that have just got boring, normal names. Fred. Fred. Malcolm. Allerton. Allerton? normal names? Fred. Fred. Malcolm. Alison. Alison? My mate's mum was called Alison.

Well, she still is called Alison. And I just can't, I just think of her in goal when Alison's in goal. It just makes me feel like we're down the park and he's brought his mum. We've also got a conspiracy here, Josh.

I don't know if you're aware of this. This is about 5G. I'm not on board. Okay, I'll get Eamon Holmes on for a chat about it. Conspiracy. This is, I've listened to every episode of your podcast, but just a couple of each of these podcasts. Basically, they've got a screenshot of their top

three podcasts they've listened to this year. So in the top three of their podcasts are Shag, Married, Annoyed, Chris and Rosie Ramsey, Catherine Bryan, Telling Everybody Everything, and Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster. Great podcast. I've got no beef with those guys.

Good luck to them, you know. But it says, but yet yours doesn't appear in my Spotify end of year top podcast of the year. I know how important awards are to Josh, so hopefully this is a one-off and hasn't affected your ratings. Your podcast has been a huge part of our lives during lockdown. I do think, though, that we have only started this halfway through the year. Do you know what I mean? So 2021 is going to be our year, Josh, I think.

Well, we made it. I was happy to see that we've made it into the – I wonder if it's still on there. I clicked on iTunes. They did their top new podcasts of 2020. Biggest new shows, that one. Biggest new shows, that one. Yeah, we're on that one new shows that one yeah we're on that one aren't we we're on that one with louis theroux oh i can't get away we can't shake him can we he's doing a second series he's doing a bloody second series we're in trouble louis theroux

us katherine and others uh joe wicks etc americ. But yes, the dream next year, Rob, that below that is the biggest shows of 2020. Yeah, but next year, fingers crossed for next year. But I think it does feel like we've done this forever, but we've literally only started this, what, in May, June time, was it? Exactly. We're already so jaded. Can you remember in August when people said you've got to change your name from lockdown whilst you're in mid-tier three?

We knew. We knew. I think, yeah, we'll maybe change it next year we'll see um but yeah i don't think it's a conspiracy i've got no problems with spotify or any of those podcasts i just think we've only been going six months guys you've got give us 2021 and then we'll look back at the conspiracy we'll double check it then yeah um thank you very much for all your emails and instagrams um rob how can get in touch? This is how you can get in touch. Email us hello at lockdownparenting.co.uk

or tweet us at lockdownparents or Instagram lockdown underscore parenting. And you can also send us stuff, P.O. Box 76748 London E99DW. And can you make sure that you rate and review our podcast please

that always helps with us in the charts and stuff like that we really appreciate it do we we don't say that enough we went we went top three again

oh yeah we're having a whale of a time we were still up there it's unbelievable what a year it's been well yeah thank you so much guys yeah I don't, we're probably going to do an end of year, New Year's Eve, New Year's Day special. And we can talk about all that stuff there. But

we're very appreciative. Thank you very much for listening and hope you enjoy this episode. Right now, time for today's guest. We've wanted to have her on for so long. She's absolutely brilliant. So many people I've told were so excited she's on. Please welcome Philippa Parry. The podcast is basically, we started in lockdown when we was trapped indoors with our kids, lockdown parenting hell, where basically me and Josh could sort of rant a little bit about how hard it was parenting in lockdown. And it seemed like we weren't the only ones feeling it. And it struck a chord with a few people people so it's sort of become a weird little group of people all muddling through together now.

And what's it going to be like for your children when they find out that being with them is hell apparently? I'm so grateful that you're keeping the psychotherapy profession alive and well. Exactly. I'm going I help you? Being with me is hell, apparently. What we could do is, I'm going to blame Josh for the title and Josh is going to blame me for the title of the show

and in that way it might, you know, shift the blame. Yeah, I would say I wouldn't want her to have heard the initial ones during lockdown, but now my parenting is so the opposite of it was during lockdown, Philippa. What have you learnt during lockdown to help you find this parenting relationship easier? I like that the psychotherapist has turned this into my therapy session rather than an interview. You can see it as that if you like. What have I learned during lockdown well not to throw it back on you Philippa but that is when my wife told me that I needed to read your book uh-huh good let me tell you uh the incident that

led to that okay which was a 45 minute standoff in the hallway when my daughter wouldn't put on her coat to go out and I had decided that this was a red line that I couldn't go back on yeah this is what you're prepared to die for it can really blow up can't it a coat in a hallway can really make or break a relationship. This was a different me, Philippa. So we're not judging here. But this is what I was... On that day, it was what I was prepared to die for, which now feels, to use your words,

it now feels absolutely absurd. But I was kind of... If she throws a mood, I can't... This was how I was feeling on the day if she's getting angry about this I can't just bow to this and go along with it no much better if you escalate it

by getting angry too and you're talking to someone who's read the book Philip but this was before the book this was before the book okay that makes sense this was before the book it'd be a terrible advert for the book if this was after you read the book uh philip but this was before the book this was before the book okay that makes sense before the book it'd be a terrible advert for the book if this was after you read the book luckily i was sat in a hallway for 45 minutes so i had time to read the book at that point i know

um so that's when uh my wife who'd read the book was like do you know what would really help you would be reading this book because i i think what I didn't realize is you know I mean this sounds so weird but you don't realize that that is a human do you know what I mean I know that's that is a human that is going through emotions like an adult goes through emotions you just think they're really trying to fuck you over regarding the coat I feel like I've actually just maybe hacked into your actual therapy session now Josh look will you just forget I'm a psychotherapist forget that I'm just a normal curious person yes now when your daughter doesn't want to put a coat on Josh what how do you cope with that now uh well to be honest I'd probably crumble I know I

would relate to her feelings about it and I talked to her about it and I discuss it with her and I I wouldn't say that it's that would be a foolproof method because she's got an insanely high body temperature that means she never wants to wear a. I learned very early on just to take the coat with me to put on when she was cold. Yes. No argument about coats. No. Life is short,

isn't it? It is. It is. I mean, we haven't actually, we've just kind of eased into the podcast. What I've realized now, Philippa,

is if I do want therapy for free, all I need to do is do it on a podcast and let the person promote their book during it. Except for I might start charging for podcasts. Yeah, I don't want to come out of this with a loss, Philippa. No offence. So your book, the book you wish your parents had read and your children will be glad that you did.

Bit of a long title. It is a long title. What do you call it when you're emailing someone about it? The book. The book. Well, my problem was my dad didn't read a book until he was 37. So it wouldn't be the book. It would be a book that they should have read.

So genuinely, I've texted some of my friends that are parents about uh the fact we're interviewing you i might as well have said to them we're interviewing john lennon the way they responded philip uh she is an amazing human being was one of the responses and just i love her in capital letters god this is amazing i'm gonna rub this all over yeah and we asked we asked on instagram for loads of questions we've been inundated so it's you're proving to be quite a popular book in philippa so no pressure but we're very excited to have you on okay let's let's rock it then what's your setup then what's your setup at home how old my setup at home is that it's just me and my husband

looking at each other across the sofa thinking why did she leave home so young she's only 28. What did we do wrong? Why doesn't she want to live with us? We have one kid. And so she's grown up and moved out did she move out at 28 or did she move out a younger? No she moved out at 21. Yeah I think that's quite a good age. Or would you rather she stayed longer? I'd rather that she lived with me forever and became my carer. Yeah, I'd like that. And with your book, this book's really sort of resonated with parents and stuff. And it's like, you know, obviously you need to read the whole book,

but breaking it down, it's more like engaging with your child on a human emotional level of why they're feeling like that, rather than just like, oh, stop annoying me. I'm trying to get on with my life type of thing obviously I'm really breaking this down into layman's terms but would you say that you're better at telling people how to implement that than you are implementing it yourself or do you really did you really try and approach parenting like that as you were doing it I lived the book um I've been writing the book for like the last 60 years. Because, you know, when my parents started, you know, not taking my feelings into consideration, and then being a

psychotherapist for a long time, you get to realize that the adults are actually still the children, the adults that you have as your patients, your clients, so they're still the children. And I listened to them about what it was like for them growing up. And it's not like they had terrible toxic parents or anything. They just had parents that didn't realise, like Josh said earlier on, that this is a human, not an it, you you know this is a person to have a relationship with you know from a baby to an adult they are still a person and i just wanted to get that across so i wrote a book about it and was there a moment where that clicked for you or like you say was it always there from when you was little like did you go ah this is why this is why that's happening but was it was it a slow process rather than it was always there I think it was there from about the age of seven but of course I had to train as a psychotherapist practice as the psychotherapist

before I was ready to write it in the book you talk a lot about what you call rupture and repair when I read one of the things I was worried about reading it is I think that I'd already kind of messed up too much do you know what I mean I was I was thinking like oh god this is gonna tell me that you're like finding Christianity in prison but that's not something people should worry about, is it? No, it's never too late because a relationship is an ongoing thing. And we tend to think of, if you think of parenting as a task rather than a relationship, then you think in terms of I've blown it or I've nailed it. And I don't think that's particularly helpful because parenting is a relationship foremost.

particularly helpful because parenting is a relationship foremost I know there are chores attached but it's important to think of your child as a person and not a chore yeah because I think people make that mistake of I just what you want your kids to be happy I want these kids to be happy and then my mum always used to say oh you're only as happy as your unhappiest child which is probably one of the bleakest things you can hear from your own brother which I'm sure you've got a lot to say about that's quite a pressure on you to always be happy yeah would you explain my life pressure always to be happy yeah I don't want to be the one letting down the side looking at my brothers going come on guys but it's not that pressure always to be happy if you can feel unacceptable when you've got other moods like despair or sadness yes so and then because you're not allowed to be despairing or angry you don't learn how to manage those feelings because you're not allowed to have them so they

tend to get repressed and then more work for therapists later on as we have to cope with these feelings yeah so my idea is that parents learn to hold and contain and accept every single feeling that a child might have which paradoxically increases their capacity for happiness yes because they can cope with it and then bounce back as it were because if if you think it's okay if it's okay to be sad you can work your sadness then you can have a laugh but if it's not okay to be sad you tend to hold on to it and not move on in the same way sometimes i find to turn into my therapy session where if you're if you're delivered some sort of news it's quite like a planning permission or something or something annoying little thing like that where you want something to happen then a letter comes

through go no you can't do that and that sort of panic and anxiety comes in as it would because you go oh we can't do a thing we want to do and i think sometimes you rather than going okay well that's you know and then have the emotion of being frustrated disappointed a little bit annoyed you should be able to sit on that emotion and let it breathe rather than going like repress it and go no I'll sort this out and I'm trying you don't always have to react upon something to change what's going to happen you can sort of sit with it if you get bad news like you don't get your planning permission or your dog dies or something terrible like that it's appropriate to be sad yes that is the right emotion yeah to be sad for the dog or angry for the planning permission after all you paid a planning consultant for god's sake yeah exactly

have you been refused planning permission rob or was that no i haven't but i was literally looking out the window and i saw an extension that's why i said planning permission, Rob? No, I haven't. But I was literally looking out the window and I saw an extension. That's why I said planning permission. But yeah, I think that's the thing about trying to make your kids happy all the time. And it's like, you know, going to work. Like I saw that in the new chapter in the paperback

about if you're going to work and the kids are upset that you're going to work, you feel guilty that they're sad. But then it's that kind of thing where they will have to miss people now and again as they grow up and stuff and I always try and say

if I'm going to work I'll say why are you going to work because well one you need money to sort of live and also I enjoy it I like work I know it don't work

to be this big grey horrible thing of they steal your dad and it's awful I go look well I need to go so we can go on holiday but also

I really enjoy it and if you're you know lucky you can have a job where you enjoy to go to and I think rather making it like a negative place it's awful. I go, look, well, I need to go so we can go on holiday. But also, I really enjoy it. And if you're lucky, you can have a job where you enjoy to go to. And I think rather than making it like a negative place, it's sort of, there's positive. And you can also say, of course you're sad I'm going. I'm very flattered that you think of me in those terms. Or, you know, you're going to be sad for a while. But mummy, I notice, has got the leg out.

So you're going gonna be okay I know you're sad at the moment and that's that's fine that's literally work though now is just going upstairs to a podcast it's not the same you know nine to five commute in I think that's even I think that's harder for kids when you're in the house and you're not playing with them or being with them because you're doing your zoom or whatever it is. And I think that's not so easy for the kid to understand when you go out. I had, I had the sort of very childish feeling at the beginning of the first lockdown when my daughter did my shopping for me,

left it on the step, rang the bell and then stood back from the step as though we both had leprosy. And I said, won't you come in? And she said, mum, you know, I can't come in. It's not the rules, you know, sort of thing. So I went, oh, thank you for the shopping and took it in. And then I burst into tears. Because I knew what the rules were. I knew cognitively that she couldn't come in but my body didn't understand now I'm 63 so really I should have got over this by now but imagine if you're seven or something and you say I'm going to go and work in the spare room you can't come in

yeah it will feel a bit like you might understand that you've got to do a podcast but I think your body cannot catch up with that there's a sort of mind body dissonance yeah and I think we all feel it with these weird rules that our bodies aren't used to and so expect more crying is what I'm saying. We had quite an interesting kind of experience recently where we got rid of the dummy with my daughter. Her teeth were being pushed forward by it. Only the milk teeth. Anyway, do you know what? I like this attitude, Philippa.

I'm the one who's bloody well enacting the book and Rob's the one who's coming across as the great parent. I don't know how this has happened this is unbelievable I've got a theory about why I think there's a class difference sometimes with parenting where when you're a bit more middle class or and you know I've become middle class now through my life but like I've still got them sort of semi-working class values where when you're middle class you do have more opportunities to be at home so like sometimes work can be a choice where when you're working class it is like you have to go to work because you need that money so there's no that allowance to fill that guilt to go oh actually I don't really need to go for this meeting I could get my assistant to go or and then whereas if you are

like going to drive a taxi you're like I've got to drive that taxi because I get that money today that we need to pay the bill so I do think sometimes with that thing of like being a bit harsher towards your kids in a way of going well no I've got to go you sort of you haven't got much choice in it I don't know if that plays a part Philippa well the thing is about that is that we all have limits and we have boundaries like the limit in that case is no I've got to go and drive my taxi though personally I'd get my assistant to drive the taxi, but you know, whatever. You have to go and drive the taxi. But sometimes you also have to go and do something because it's fun, not because you have to. It's the same thing. You have to put down a boundary before you reach your limit. The taxi driver, the limit is, we will starve unless I go out to work for you it might be I will implode unless I make a podcast with Josh because that's fun and I need to do it yeah okay so you've

still got the limit so you put the boundary down so say I'm sorry you're unhappy and I'm going to go and do this thing I'm not about being lax. I'm about setting your boundary. But it's really important when you set your boundary that you don't make up a reason, that you tell the truth and you tell the truth from an I perspective. Like, I really like you saying, I go to work because it's fun. And I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I like enjoying myself. Rather than, I go to work so you can have some lovely clothes and toys. You know, that is sort of like, you know, don't pull the wool over their eyes like that.

Bit master, innit? Well, yeah, I don't fucking want this coat on anyway. I'm too hot. It's gaslighting, isn't it? It's sort of like trying to guilt trip them into letting you go to work. No, they're going to have feelings about it. And that is fine. trip them into letting you go to work.

No, they're going to have feelings about it. And that is fine. Likewise with Josh and his dummy, as long as he doesn't say you've got to lose the dummy because your teeth are going to go weird. As long as you say, I'm afraid you have to take the dummy from you because otherwise I'm really worried about my middle-class credentials. I can't go to Victoria Park with you in the dummy

because I'm a bum. I can't go to Victoria Park with you in the dummy in case Victoria and David come by with little baby Barbara, who hasn't had a dummy for ages. You know, it's going to be competitive parenting. And, you know, you can't, I don't want to look like a fool so because I am a fool I'm taking away your dummy basically if you don't pretend it's for her

sake because she knows she loves her dummy and you say it's for my sake it's because I can't stand the dummy anymore then I think it's it's fair then she knows you're the crazy one and that's good I think she's fully aware of that she worked that out the day I had a 45 minute standoff over a coat that she's uh she's very clear on that you used a dummy fairy and that she's a big girl now type of well no no I didn't I didn't I changed to I this was what I brought up I enacted what I would describe as some Philippa Perry style parenting and I was very pleased with myself. Tell me what that is Josh. So, so we initially...

This is such like teacher's pet. I feel like we're at... I know but I'm not getting anywhere with it Rob. I'm not getting anywhere. I've done, I've read the book and this is my exam and now I'm failing my exam and I can't believe it Rob. Calm down. Breathe. tell me all about it. Breathe, take a moment Josh. I can't do it, I'm just going to leave the Zoom call, it's too much pressure. She's obsessed with being a big girl and if you call her small she doesn't like it, right?

And so with the dummy thing we'd be like, oh you're doing you know she was doing very well and you know you're like you're a big girl you're doing so well all that and actually what happened then was she woke up in the night without at 4am we went into her and she was upset and we were like why are you upset and she said I can't tell you and we were like is it because of the dummy and we realized we hadn't engaged with the emotion that she's missing this dummy so we then engaged with it and we're like we know it's tough you know we've been through this I said like her mum remembers the experience herself oh god um and yeah so um so you probably need therapy for her as well but um

get a family right yeah we'll get a family right but um once we engaged with her about it and engaged with the sadness of it it just totally opened up and it was a completely different experience oh yeah so i was just using that as an example but i'm not gonna lie all he wanted you to go well done josh but now but now i'm not gonna lie i'm gonna give her the dummy back because I've been shamed into it by you. No, don't do that. You don't want her to have it. You've put down your boundary and you've done the right thing of comforting her in her grief of doing without it.

So I think you're doing just fine. That's all he wanted, Philippa. Thank you. She's allowed to have her sad feelings about it and there was something she couldn't tell you about because she felt she had to be a certain way to get your approval and you've gone through that she can be anything she likes and you're still going to approve of her philippa do you find that sometimes though that the danger is people overcompensate and go too far the other way if their parents parented in

a certain way they sort of just immediately do the opposite in a sort of act of rebellion yeah what i think you're talking about is that if you're brought up very strict do you go too far and go lax and this does happen and what tends to happen with parents who are reluctant to put down any boundaries at all is that of course they reach their limit and then lose it it's very sad so we've we've all got buttons and we're all capable of getting them pushed so I think every parent should put down a boundary before they're in danger of having these buttons pushed and I'm not knowing where that should be. Probably coat, isn't it?

That's where the boundary should be, isn't it? I'm quite short tempered. So when my kid, poor kid said, I want my sauce and my spaghetti separate. I said, oh, that's tough. Cause I made a pasta bake and it's all in one go. And she's, well, I'm not eating it. I go, oh dear, you're going to be quite hungry quite hungry later but okay and that's what I was like and soon enough she'd eat the sauce and

the pasta I mean I was quite pathetic about it but I cannot be asked to cook separate meals for everyone I'm sorry that is my limit so the boundary I put down is like it's pasta bake or nothing I'm sorry yeah our daughter was very funny with what she ate but we never made it into a big thing was like okay well that's dinner you either have it or you don't and then eventually she did start eating bits and then when she went to school she has like school dinner she's only five but has school dinners at lunchtime and then she'd come home the other day and she's been eating lamb and she was like oh oh do you know what sausages are lovely with potatoes and bread because all her friends are eating it so it was more almost like a power play of not wanting to eat and then

actually she was getting on with it fine but we know we didn't force her to do it was like well that's there you either have it or you don't it's quite embarrassing um when when your kid goes to somebody else's house say and um i was picking up uh flo from a play date once and I said, everything OK? You know, when I picked her up, she said, when I asked her if she wanted broccoli, she replied, can I just have it blanched, please? Well, that happened is a bit similar, but we've got a fairly decent sized garden, nothing too spectacular. But my mum and dad's house, small the garden it's like tiny sort of really small really small garden quite similar to one i grew up in and my mum said to her do you want to go into the garden and then they went and stood in the garden and then my dog said nanny where's the garden i know mama was like it's here little this is this is all we've got so she said she's gonna take her over the park next time and go, this is my garden, actually.

I got confused. This is the garden. We got some questions from listeners and from fans, Philippa. Before that, I just wanted to do a quick quiz question for Rob based on your book, which is you talk about the three types... I mean, I'm showing myself in such a bad light here. Once again, it's going to show me in a bad light. You talk about the three types of...

Self-consciousness is something we're going to work on. Yeah. He's got no... He doesn't back himself enough, does he, Philippa? I mean, he's too modest. He's trying to mock himself before we get in there, I think. And then you're prejudging the question mocking that's what it is sorry josh carry on be aware i can hear you both when you're having a conversation without me it's really it feels really powerful double teaming someone with

a psychotherapist i've never felt so secure in an argument i'll get you later rob i know there's a lot going on here. There's a lot happening here. So you talk about the three types of arguing that parents can do between themselves. And I wanted Rob to guess which one I read and went, oh my God, that is exactly what I do. Okay, good fun. Okay, the three arguing styles. So the first one you call look squirrel yes this is the

distracting arguing style so when your wife comes in and goes christ you've been here all day and you haven't done the washing up you go look there's a squirrel rather than you know addressing the um the issue yeah the issue we call that the distractor style or look squirrel indeed yeah i love that style that's my favorite next uh there is the uh being a martyr yeah being a martyr sort of like oh i see you haven't done the washing up oh well i'll do it i suppose and then the third one i don't know you've given it a title I suppose. And then the third one, I don't know if you've given it a title, but if you could describe the third one. Well, the other one is when you go, you filthy pig,

you just go straight into attack mode. So you come in, the washing up hasn't been done. You filthy pig, you're disgusting. You repulse me with your stuck-on cereal on this bowl. So I can zoom in with my wife at the moment. She's very much in that category uh would you like to both guess which of those i felt i was and it was a very confronting paragraph to read i i don't know you very well josh i i would be hesitant to put you

in a little box there well i know josh doesn like conflict, but I also know he has very strong opinions on stuff. So I don't think you'd be full distraction. I think you might be a bit martyry and you're sort of a little bit passive aggressive with it. So you've made your point, but not forcefully. Do you know what? You are correct. I realised during lockdown,

I'd become the full martyr argument. Oh, that's the most, I find that the worst because at least the full on one, you know, where you stand, where in my house it's like, fucking hell Lou, what have you done to that bathroom? I haven't done the washing up since, I haven't martyred myself once since I read that. Oh, oh, oh. No, that was something that really spoke to me.

You're full on cooperation and compromise now, aren't you? Yes. Yes. Haven't had an argument since. I would love to be able to say that, but it's not true. Sometimes, like you say, you need to set boundaries and this is what we do. And then you decide on those boundaries and then talk your child through the reason. Don't have to justify it, but explain why that's happening. The reason you talk your child through that is really important.

That is an I statement. Yes. So it's not don't run into the road, it's dangerous. It's don't run into the road because it terrifies me. Yes. Do it as an I statement. You define yourself rather than the child or even the situation. I mean, sometimes you define the situation. But normally define yourself, talk about your own feelings around it like I'll feel worried

if you go out in the rain without an umbrella because I'm worried you'll get cold so humor me and take your umbrella yeah so you think that's the best approach to it like that no that is the best approach fair enough so so for example when I walk my daughter to school, okay, on a scooter, she goes on a scooter and she's alongside me on the scooter. And then in the school grounds, there's like these little slopes that come out of sort of classrooms down. And she wants to go down the slope on her scooter, okay? And my thoughts is I don't really want her doing that one

because there's cars parked there. There's other people walking down this path. And I sort of think, from a respect point of view, you're in the school gates now. Let's use the scooter as a way to get to school but it's not a park to play in it's the school grounds okay which I don't know if that so I don't know so that's what I've decided upon in my head and then to be fair she doesn't really suggest the slope on her own it's when there's other kids there to start doing it and I'll say no let's not go down the slope because we're going to school today and if you want to you know go down slopes or go fast on your scooter or go to the park at

the weekend we could put your helmet on and then you can go and we'll find some slopes and we'll play but now we're on the way to school that's that's the sort of position I've got myself in but I don't know now I'm thinking am I being too harsh or that boring you're not being too harsh at all you're not being too harsh but what you're doing is giving her a reason isn't quite the reason it's sort of like basically i don't want you playing on the slope with your scooter because it makes me uncomfortable that's it why does it make you uncomfortable then you can say those rules but don't leave yourself out of that equation yes she will be able to empathize

with feeling uncomfortable or feeling scared yeah she will argue no it's fine look you know macy and pacey are going on the slopes and and going between the cars and you can say well they're making me uncomfortable too and i don't want you to make me uncomfortable as well yeah so bring it back to your own feelings bring it back to your own feelings each time because it's so much easier to hear and also there's no arguing with that if you feel uncomfortable with her mucking about in the school yard on the scooter that's reason enough. Yeah. Because you feel uncomfortable and then she'll learn too to talk about her own feelings because you'll give her that model yeah so when you say come on let's go to this party or whatever

she'll say no I I feel uncomfortable doing that and then you can say why and you said because you know that boy bullies me or whatever it is okay it's like any relationship honesty is key isn't it the same way as like in a marriage honesty for me is like such an important part of it where everyone knows where they stand and it's the same thing if you're fostering that relationship with your kid it's been it's like i don't go down that slope because i'm you know i'm comfortable if you're doing it because you haven't got the helmet on you might slip crack your head open and i've got a really busy day so if you're an a and e, this is going to be a disaster for both of us. I think you can just say,

no, because I'm a scaredy cat, rather than tell her she's going to crack her head at me. Because I reckon she can manage that slope just fine, even without a helmet. Yeah, exactly. You, on the other hand, are a bit scared. That's fine. Only fear.

Yeah, okay, fair enough. But don't tell us you're gonna crack a hell no no to be fair it's not even it's not this it's not even the slope's dangerous it's more like it's it's like i am from my own point of view it's like if you go on the school grounds you should be using school to get to school not to be playing around you have a lot of reasons for it but we'll just stick with you being uncomfortable i'm uncomfortable i just have uncomfortable that's my new thing i don't want to do that. Mum and Lou goes, we're going to go round my mum and dad's for dinner. No, I'm uncomfortable with that.

Well, Phillip said I don't really need to explain, but I can give you a long list. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with that idea. Is that okay? I'd like to negotiate this because I don't feel like going round because they're too posh for me and I feel inferior.

And then you put them there. Gosh, she's really got you there, Rob. That's absolutely bullseye. Oh, yeah. Philippa's got my number. I'm sorry. That was a guess. I had no idea it was bullseye.

I'm so sorry. Oh, nice. Straight on the 50-pointer there. So this is a question from my friend Aoife, who has a four-year-old called Cora. She says, Should I stay out of her friendship dynamics, the friendship dynamics of insane four-year-olds?

They're all endlessly being nice to then suddenly rejecting each other. And it's very hard to see it when it's your own kid. Oh. The kids themselves never seem to give a shit. So should you just not bring it up with them afterwards unless they mention it? I think if they mention it, then then you can if your kid's unhappy because their best friend stopped talking to them

and oh my god that is the end of your world that is a big deal imagine imagine if rob stopped talking to you josh you'd be really hurt wouldn't you i mean to be the man I talk, it's just a probability that I will talk at him at some point. So I believe that your child led on this. But that means if your child looks unhappy but hasn't brought it up, you can say, what's up? And if they say, Sophia isn't talking to me anymore, rather than, right, I'm'm gonna go and sort this out with Sophia's mum because that's my initial my I go into sort of like rage that actually doesn't help what helps is if you ask the kid what you're going to do about this what what do you think we can do or you can do she said well I'll be sad for a while but I suppose I won't be sad forever you go yay or they'll say I suppose I could play with Josh instead you go yes I know he's at work at the

moment I'm sure that'll be fine yeah well I suppose also as well that I've noticed as well is when you say oh we're doing this we're doing that and they ask can I do this or do that whether it is and you go oh no we're not doing that and they'll go well insert name well you know um Simon's allowed to do that but at the moment our response is well I don't I don't care what Simon does I think you could say well Simon's daddy probably doesn't mind if he breaks his skull in half but I really care about yours no that would yeah that would be evil. That would be too aggressive. That would be manipulative. Just keep it honest.

Like, well, Simon's dad's got more children. He can probably afford to lose one. Whatever it is. Do you want some questions from our Instagram followers and listeners? I would love that. Yeah, this one made me laugh. Is it acceptable to stick your finger up at your kid behind their back well it's interesting isn't it because i i think that's not going to solve their problem is it i think the trouble is as if you go like that i mean i'm

sticking my finger in the air behind your kid's, what you're not doing is you're not going, what is the child triggering in me? Why am I angry? What was I like at his age? Oh, I remember, I, unless I finished my meal, I got my knuckles wrapped. So I am associating not finishing my food with humiliation this is why I feel unreasonably angry when they leave a bit of food or whatever it is because what makes our kids angry is usually some humiliation or or sadness that we suffered at their age and rather than revisit that, because we don't want to feel that again, we just get angry with the kid.

So I think when you're angry with your kid, the thing is to be curious about why this is triggering for you. And once you've got the hang of that, then you won't be triggered so much because quite often the trigger belongs in the past and not the present. Yeah. I had that. I found that what was really triggering me past and not the present. Yeah, I had that.

I found that what was really triggering me, and I don't know why, which what I was finding frustrating was my daughter wouldn't, when she found drawing something difficult or she went through a stage basically where because she wasn't able to draw what she wanted to she never wanted to do it and she just asked you to do the drawing for her and I was like what why is this such a trigger why is this such a big trigger for me and I was talking to my wife about it because obviously she she was fine with it as you would be but there was something in me where I was like this there's something here about this in me that I find really difficult I don't know like I I think it might be that part of my approach to life is that I really try and really push myself to do stuff and like

really try and challenge myself and stuff and I don't know what happened to you when you were small and you said I can't do this I don't know because I was trying to think that when I read in the book I was like I can't think what that is I mean I had a similar thing that when my daughter was learning how to tie shoelaces and she couldn't do it I felt this anger come up in me and I wanted to say, just let me do that. You know, I just wanted to grab the shoe off her and do it. And I just felt furious and really impatient. And I thought, whoa, what's this about? And when I look back on it, I realise that that's exactly what my father did to me.

When I couldn't do my shoes up, he got so bored of waiting for me. He just said, oh, let me do it like that. And that was deeply humiliating and I think sometimes we can find our child's incompetence you know because they they can't handle a pencil properly or they can't do up their shoelaces really frustrating because it reminds us of our own incompetence when we were that age and when your older sister can do it and your parents can do it and you still can't tie your shoelaces up or whatever it is or draw the picture it can those feelings were everything to us at the time I mean now if you can't do something

you're not flooded with humiliation you just say teach me how to do this again but then you might have been and we're we forget that we're now adults and we can cope with a bit of humiliation or we can cope even with remembering it but our unconscious selves feels like it will take us right back down to when we were super humiliated or felt terribly incompetent or whatever it was and that's why we have this little rage that comes up because it protects us from feeling that humiliation so I'm guessing you got cross when she said draw me a car or whatever it was because your body even if you can't remember your body remembers not being able to draw a car and how frustrating or humiliating or incompetent feeling that made you feel? I've never been good at drawing so there's every chance.

You forget those moments because you become an adult and you just tie your shoes without thinking. It's only when you're confronted with the person you're teaching the world that you go, oh yeah that was it, yeah it comes flooding back and I find that with little opens, tiny little things. I think everyone has buried at certain points and you know like for example scooters my daughter's got a three-wheeled scooter and then you know some kids are aged on a two-wheeled one or a three-wheeled one and we've just got she's not as confident on it and then we've just got the bigger version of the three-wheeled scooter so it's more stable because she's not very confident on bikes and stuff like that and we're like oh

no we're not gonna get in this sort of arms race of a kid being able to ride a bike who gives a shit what i mean so it needs to be if she's happy and confident and isn't even going to join that scooter that's way more important than but at that age she should be doing that or that age you should be drawing a car at that age you should be tying her laces but you feel it you feel it coming up in you i wish it was on the two wheeler because i've done bits of therapy as well like just trying to not even about my kids just about the way i approach work and poverty mindset and that kind of stuff i've not and sort of know my value enough so i'm not just thinking it's like imposter syndrome and stuff like that so i've done stuff like that and worked on me a little bit where i feel this little energy that just builds this rush of red that comes

over me if it's like something and then I what I've learned to do and I've transferred that to the kids is sit with the feeling and because the feeling's not facts it's not what's happening it's just how your body feels at that moment and just sit on it but before I wouldn't sit on it I'd go right how can I solve this how can I change this how but now I'm learning to just sit on it more and I find that helps me and I do mindfulness breathing and stuff and I've started with the girls trying to get them to sort of breathe a little bit just sit with it and I think that your first thought isn't always your best no thought of that situation it's better to sit on it and just hold that feeling and and and

so what does it matter if they're doing that before another kid or after as long as they're happy and enjoying the time on the scooter, that's the main thing, you know. But it's learning that process. It's like there's almost a bit of you that's, you know, your inner four-year-old is a bit merged with her and what you felt at her age can come flooding up. And we know when we're being triggered by the past because you do get, like you said,

this sort of sudden little charge of emotion. What's that about and your idea of sitting with it is just fine and very good oh thanks philip well i think maybe growing up i can imagine someone going you can't ride a bike yet i can learn to ride a bike well i could ride a bike at your age i don't know if someone said that to me but it might have been in there, you know, and stuff like that. But yeah, I think that's to say, as you grow with your child, all those little things come back to you. I remember trying to have a shave for the first time. And I remember getting like a razor and doing it.

And I cut my lip a bit. And I can still now vividly remember, because I've got four brothers, sitting in the front room, and I was sitting like that to cover the cuts. I couldn't put tissue, because I didn't want anyone to know that I'd shaved, because I didn't really need to and if you say that to four boys and they're like wanker thought he had a beard you haven't got a beard you little prick and it would be that so I was sitting there and I can still vividly remember that little

moment and it's different that you know so I think it does take you back to moments where you felt vulnerable and you want to you want to try and make it better for your kid but actually you can sometimes make it worse by just putting the same pressure on them that you had on you. Luckily, Rob, you've got two girls, so you're not going to have to revisit the shaving nightmare. You never know. Silent Night is a new British crime thriller,

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And in supermarkets on DVD 28th December. Get your copy now. Oh, I've got one here quickly from Red Fox Jodie. How nine-month-old girl Robin keeps chewing and eating cardboard boxes. How do we stop this? I mean, that's a quick one. Just don't put boxes near her. You've got it, Rob.

Just take the cardboard boxes away. I don't want to answer for you, Philippa, but I think that's just keep her away from cardboard boxes. What food is a bit like cardboard box? It's sort of like a rusk or something. Yeah. It's the great phrase. Boxes aren't for eating. Rusks are for eating.

So you swap one for the other. Or hide all cardboard boxes box or just give them a plastic box and go good luck with that good luck with that gummies okay this is from emily so emily's got two children uh how do you be patient and child-led when you have two children wanting something different at the same time okay i I am not child led I am relationship led. It's a key difference. So you've got one kid that wants to go to the park and one kid that wants to go to the swimming pool right? Yeah. So we just sit everybody down or whatever we're doing. Oh we have a problem.

Billy wants to go to the park, Laurie wants to go to John Lewis or whatever it is okay yeah and mummy wants to go to Sainsbury's so some people are not going to get what they want so somebody's going to be sad and someone's going to be happy well I think we're going to Sainsbury's and I'm very sorry kids you're not getting your own way or if one wants one thing one the other, this isn't a battle where somebody wins and somebody loses. So how can we all win? And brainstorm with the children. We're not going to play winners and losers. So how can we all win? Maybe we can find a third activity that's a compromise or something, you know. Bring them all in with the process always.

And, you know, get them to talk about how they feel i mean what i usually do in that situation because believe it or not it still happens that my husband wants one thing and my and my child wants another and they're both very entrenched in their position and they're looking to need to solve it out so they're a couple of siblings i'm like i'm torn in bloody half and um i just say this is a problem and they they do come to a compromise i mean he's 60 now so he's getting very mature at this sort of thing with the sangerist thing though as well if you you know the kids want to go to two separate places and you want to go to the shops and go to sangerist like when you say that you go this is what we're doing you know you're going to be upset but this is what we're

doing that doesn't mean to say the kids are going to go oh okay then they may kick off and they may have a meltdown but then they'll learn from that because that's just what happens well you know I don't know if they'll learn from it or not but um if they have a meltdown we go oh it feels so bad right now doesn't it that I'm going to Sainsbury's and not the park and you know we just have a three-way cuddle at that point yeah I mean you're not doing anything awful you're just going to different shops it's just more of a power play sometimes once had my daughter was having such a meltdown in uh in Sainsbury's once I think it was because I wouldn't let her eat the grapes that weren't washed, I can't remember

what it was but I You picked your boundary and it was a dirty grape And I just I just said oh I can't be bothered and I left the whole full trolley and walked out of the shop with it I don't know why I wasn't done for abducting children

because I had her under my arm and every limb was sort of going in all directions. At that point, Philippa, how was your feeling though? Because obviously that would, is that something you'd recommend? I was feeling a bit mortified because I realised that I'd forgotten to give her a nap and she was overtired. So it was all my fault. So I was feeling a little bit mortified, but then we had a great takeaway dinner. So that was nice. little bit mortified but then we had a great takeaway dinner so that was nice is that something you think there was a anomaly where it didn't because you didn't give her the nap it sort of went a bit sideways or is that a fair way to handle that situation if a kid has a meltdown

would you just take her back the shop or should you know I wouldn't prescribe anything it's just that if a kid has a meltdown I'd say be kind don't be oppositional if the kid's having any feelings in fact be kind don't be oppositional because if the kid says i don't want to put my coat on if you go you really don't want to put your coat on and here am i worried that you're going to get cold okay i'll tell you what we'll go out and i'll hold the coat and if you want it you can put it on. Rather than getting in a fight, it's just a waste of time. So I feel like it's like steering into the skid.

When you're, before we had ABS brakes, if you got on an ice patch and you started to go towards the wall, your instinct is to get the steering wheel and go in the opposite direction. But momentum of the car is still taking you to the wall so it doesn't work. But if you steer into the skid then you can drive out of the skid because the wheels are going in the direction of motion so when you turn them they go and that's the same with the tantrum or feelings or anything. Go with it so you can steer out of it. Obviously that example with the coat when you're saying like their body temperature is different and maybe they genuinely don't want

to wear their coat because it will be too hot and stuffy for them and they're running around that park but there must be examples where sometimes that can just be used as a get my own way almost sort of power play and then why would you be having power plays unless you've taught them how to have power plays that's the cultural thing that you learn, a power play. It's not something that's in your instinct. It's something they've seen within the household. Or had put on them, yeah. Okay.

So when you want to get your way with your kid because you think they can't get their own way, you are actually teaching them how to be stubborn and it will come right back at you. teaching them how to be stubborn and it will come right back at you when you are thoughtful kind empathetic take your time you'll get that back at you she did go to Sainsbury's and get my shopping even if she wouldn't break the rules and come into the house she's nice you know yeah and if she wasn't nice she would have give you a cuddle because that would be the worst thing she could do. Yes, that's right. We always ask this question at the end of the podcast about if there's anything that frustrates you about your partner and their parenting that you have never said to them because it would cause a row,

but it's a fair comment. And if they were to listen to the podcast and pick up on it, they would go, oh, yeah, that is fair. I'll stop doing that. Is there anything that you'd like to get off your chest now that you've not been able to about the way your your husband parents no no I think it's nothing I mean after being in therapy for about 25 years myself and uh having loads of other people in therapy with me for about 30 years you'd think wouldn wouldn't you,

that I'd be able to talk to my husband about something that bothers me. And I think I have, and I think we're good. I'm so sorry, I haven't got anything more. Well, no, I mean, that's the tree. That's why you can write this book, because you aren't harbouring anger over tea towels or muslins being left in a drawer or something. It's hard to disagree with a psychotherapist that's written a book about parenting like actually i've got an idea

you say what your feeling is and and you say why and and then you say what you want so complaint with a recommendation i'm gonna i'm gonna adopt complaint of recommendation uh with louise this week and then report back like when you put a boundary down with the child make it into a nice statement don't say you are ridiculous to leave the bib on the tap but if you say i don't like the bib on the tap because of my particular neurosis so it would help a lot if if you'd leave it leave it here instead yeah i don't see i've got a good one that i could work out now i can say lou this is my was it um was it a complaint so the complaint is louise whenever you know um the kids are in bed and the house is

all nice and clean and tidy and you go out for the night and you grab your going out bag um once you put your purse in it you empty the entire contents of that bag on the dining room table and then leave. I find that quite annoying when it's all clean and tidy. Recommendation, don't fucking do it. Or put it in a drawer.

But that happens a lot in our house. I have bought you this beautiful bejeweled box and I would like it if... Yeah, you could put your mints the car keys crushed up pom bears in it rather than on the dining table yeah probably in the box a bejeweled box a bejeweled box so you can put all that it's a recommendation uh philip it's been amazing thank you so much thank you so much philip um the book again oh yeah my book is

the book you wish your parents had read and your children would be glad that you did and you'll just have the best life in this book no more arguing no more chores you'll just enjoy yourselves all day long everything's a walk in the park. And when you're not enjoying yourself, you'll learn to accept your other feelings as well. It's great. I'm going to be honest, Philippa. It genuinely has had a huge positive impact on my life and my relationship with my daughter.

So thank you very much for that. And I love you for saying that. Thank you, Josh. No, genuinely. Thank you. And most of the questions that come in, one question said, I haven't got a question. i just want to say it's the best book about parenting ever written so you've got a lot of fans philippa um so definitely grab that book and thank you so

much thanks so much philippa and it's out in paperback from the 31st of december uh one last question is do you think we need to change the name of our podcast to save our children having issues in a future life please well but what i would say is that it does really help you know sort of comedically and get it get get clicks and likes doesn't it the name children the butt of our jokes uh yeah that's such a great idea for their self-esteem oh no oh no what have we done j? Could we negotiate it to purgatory? Yeah, well, we'll have to think of that now. I think if you've told us it's going to affect our children, we'll have to change the name of it.

The problem is now, I'm never going to be able to think about, I mean, we are going to have to change it now. That's it. Philippa, if you said to Josh that you should change the title deeds to his house into your name, he'd go, yeah, it's probably quite a good idea, actually. It's probably a good way forward, yeah.

I think you've got a lot of sway over Josh Willicam. Thanks very much, Philippa. I'm really glad I came because I've had a lovely time. Oh, brilliant. Thank you so much, Philippa. Josh, you are, I've never seen you like this. It's like you've just met Elvis. Do you know what? When I met Blur, I've never seen you like this. You're just, it's like you've just met Elvis. Do you know what?

When I met Blur, I was equally tongue-tied. Also, I saw your face getting livid when I said a couple of things and Phillip was like, yeah, I think that's a good way to do it. You were scrambling for time. You know what, Rob? You were absolutely,

you were turning on the parenting performance of a lifetime. It was unbelievable. Yeah. I really took it up a few notches. It was genuinely, it was like, watching you describe parenting was like watching a palais describe his best goals. It was unbelievable. Oh dear. But that was great though. She's so, so interesting. You've read the book,

Lou, my wife's read the book and I've read bits of it. And Lou has repeated that book at me to the point where I felt like I've listened to the audio book weirdly read by my wife and I know that Phillip is like quite zen and a therapist and she doesn't know but all kids need to be engaged with they've learned that behavior before but sometimes I do look at a kid and think you're a fucking prick mate do you know what I mean like not mine not my own but some kids you look at and that's the type of kid that I think you cannot engage with rob i need to ask you what we're going to do what what's your views on the title i mean i totally get what she's saying i don't feel like we moan about our kids it's more about our own issue i don't we

don't ever blame our children in this podcast but now i am conflicted whether it is a bad image that as the children grow older and they go like oh i heard about your dad moaning about you on a podcast that my mom and dad listened to imagine hearing that at school yeah but then if you don't talk about our kids what we're gonna do i would argue that and i think this is true that listening to the podcast and i think we're very careful with that also as well then there's the argument that how much you talk about one stage as well. And Jerry Seinfeld says that it's like, it's a family effort to pay the bills. But it's just,

can we earn enough money through this that we can afford the therapy? That's the balance, isn't it? What kind of loss or gain would we get? But anyway, we'll have to think about the name. Anyway, thanks to Philippa.

Philippa Perry's book, the book you wish your parents had read and your children will be glad that whatever. Think about the name. Anyway, thank you to Philippa. Philippa Perry's book, The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read And Your Children Will Be Glad That You Did is out on the 31st of December in paperback. It's quite interesting with all the questions we got for Philippa, Josh, that you can definitely tell there's a weird split of our audience for this podcast. Cause there was people going best book I've ever read. And some questions I didn't get time to do was like, how do you deal with a sibling of an autistic child

in the complex needs of that child? And I've got these stepkids and all these really intricate family stuff. And then there was also people that said, fuck off Beckett, too fed. So I just don't know an Instagram account that has these worlds colliding. It's like, it's mental.

It's like Oasis supporting Michael Bublé at Wembley. Can you imagine? The queue for the bar. Yeah, so anyway, thank you for all your questions. Sorry we didn't get through them. Sorry we didn't get through them. Hopefully we'll try and get Philip back. I think we have to change the name before that, though.

Right. Right. See you next week. Cheers, bye.