Rob Beckett and Josh Widdicombe's Parenting Hell - S02 EP39: Helen Russell

Episode Date: June 4, 2021

ROB BECKETT & JOSH WIDDICOMBE'S 'LOCKDOWN PARENTING HELL' -S02 EP39: Helen RussellJoining us in the studio this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) during the lockdown and beyond is the brilliant journalist and author, Helen Russell. Helen has written a number of best selling books inclusding The Year Of Living Danishly · Leap Year · Gone Viking · The Atlas Of Happiness · How To Be SadEnjoy. Rate and Review. Thanks. xxx If you want to get in touch with the show here's how:EMAIL: [e-mail]: @lockdownparent INSTAGRAM: @lockdown_parentingA 'Keep It Light Media' Production Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Introducing Tim's new Savory Pinwheels. The perfect flaky and flavorful snack for those on the go. Like me, who's recording this while snacking. Ooh, delicious. Try the roasted red pepper and Swiss or caramelized onion and parmesan pinwheels only at Tim's. At participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. And if you're just joining us, we're live from Evan's living room. It looks like Evan is about to purchase tickets to today's match.

Kate, the real test is, will he use the BMO Toronto FC cashback MasterCard? Well, if he wants to earn cashback on his purchases, he will, and... Oh, hang on. He's at the computer with his card, and he's done it! Oh, clicky-click magic trick!

The click heard around the room. You guys just about finished? Sorry, we got excited. Thanks for snagging those tickets. Make every purchase highlight-worthy with the BMO Toronto FC Cashback Mastercard. Hello, I'm Josh Whitacombe. And I'm Rob Beckett. Welcome to Lockdown Parenting Hell, the show in which Rob and I discuss what it's like to be a parent during lockdown, which I would say can be a little tricky. So, in an effort to make some kind of sense of the current situation... And to make me feel better about my increasingly terrible parenting skills...

Each episode, we'll be chatting to a famous parent about how well they're coping. Or hopefully not. And we will be hearing from you, the listener, with your tales of lockdown parenting woe. Because let's be honest, none of us know what we're doing. Hello and welcome to Lockdown Parenting Hell with... Can you say Josh Whittakin? Josh Whittakin.

And Rob Beckett. Rob Beckett. Good boy. There we go. That was absolutely exceptional. Who was that? Oh, dear. Oh, that's...

I'll tell you what that was in a minute. That was George, who is two. And that is from Jess Bedingfield. Surely not a relative. Well, do you know what I was going to say? She had a lovely voice. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's because, you know,

but I really enjoyed her saying good boy. I felt like I'd been a really good boy. You know. Should we play that again? Can you play that again? Yeah, do you want to play that again? Yeah. Is this your favourite ever recording of a Bedingfield?

I think so. You say, Josh Widdicombe. Josh Widdicombe. And Rob Beckett. Is this your favourite ever recording of a bedding field? I think so Can you say Josh Whittakin? Josh Whittakin And Rob Beckett Rob Beckett Good boy How's that? I enjoyed that

I don't know why But that stirred some emotions in me The same way as Michael gets fan mail for his voice I just think that's the best bedding field I've ever heard Yeah, that is my favourite Bedingfield. Oh, I don't know. I do enjoy the song These Words by Natasha Bedingfield, but it's up there.

Is she part of the Bedingfield clan? Do email in, Jess, and tell us if you know Natasha and Daniel. Don't email in. Send a voice note. Send a voice note. How are you, Joshua? We've made a bad purchase, Rob. Oh, no.

I went to drop some stuff at the charity shop a few weeks ago. I took my daughter and I said, you can have one thing from the charity shop. First mistake? Yeah. But I thought, you know, nice thing to do. Yeah. She settled on a keyboard from, I'd say, about 1985.

Lovely. Very Whittaker. An early learning centre keyboard. Oh, this is so Bon Brand. And she's not really been into music that much before but now she's absolutely obsessed with the demos on this keyboard what's the point of learning the keyboard when the demo's on there exactly to the point where uh rose was breastfeeding and my daughter came in and said would you like to listen to some music

rose is sat there breastfeeding she's's like, yeah. And my daughter just puts the keyboard down and goes. So I reckon I hear this tune 20 times a day, Rob. Not just that one. It feels like you're

constantly on hold. Oh, that's a good, that's a banger. It's destroying my life. Right, you've got options here. What are my options? Lose it. I can't lose it, Rob. She's just got a baby brother.

She's struggling emotionally enough with that. This is her only thing. Okay. Right, so she's like is there a volume on it yes can you set it lower or like with and put a bit like sort of almost put some sellotape on it so it can't exceed these buttons let me let me send you a photo of this as well so you can see uh right we're dealing with it I want a photo front and back please Josh of this and I'll tell you how to make this quieter. There must be a speaker on it. And then my suggestion would be put some masking tape over the speaker and it will dull the sound.

Well, you'll see, Rob. You'll see that that's just not possible, mate. Oh, no. What have you got? Both the flanks are big speakers, Rob. I tell you what, stickers. Get some stickers. Yeah.

And why don't you play a game called, I've got lovely stickers for your new keyboard, and then you can put, when she's putting stickers in it, you can put some over the speaker. But the speaker's a huge job. The speaker's a huge. Get some pennies stickers. This is my life.

Also, it's very, does it help for, does it make it harder to breastfeed what's rose's opinion because it does add an energy to the experience doesn't it yeah it feels like psychologically you're doing it well and quick it's there's a lot of food coming here a lot of milk it's quite like uh diddy kong racing or mario kart or something isn't it it's a bit like that oh josh my life is ruined um we we working tonight? Aren't we together? Yeah, the last leg, 10pm. What are we going to talk about?

What are we going to talk about? Well, we don't know, do we? What do you think it's going to be in the news? I don't know. At this stage of the game. Basically, Boris has got married. Oh, yeah, we might cover that. The sun's out.

It's a bank holiday weekend. Everyone's loving life. There is no news. I wonder if we're going to have a green room, Rob. Yeah, because it's your first one back under new guidelines. Under new guidelines. I just... What takeaway are you getting, Rob? I'm already excited about what takeaway I'm getting.

Yeah, they're very honest. Someone said, Rob, you arrive at this point, and what do you want? And they sent me menus for lunch for a week's time. This was last week. Did they? I've gone Fernando's's i've ordered a week early it feels like a fucking wedding party it's like when you go to one of those have you been to one of these restaurants it's like a big family yeah you cannot you can have a table for 12 but

you've got a pre-order and then like you're pre-ordering like salmon on crew for 13 weeks time um have you been to these places where you have to order the curry like 48 hours in advance? No, where's that? So you go to a place and it'll say like, there'll be a special curry that has to be cooked 48 hours in advance. Who knows that exists until you get there? Actually, I'm going to order that. See you in two days. Yeah, I fancy a biryani on

Thursday. Better order it now. But I'm looking forward to it. It'll be nice to get out of the house. Are you going to use the word stiff neck? Oh yeah, I'm going to say stiff neck as much as I can on it now. But I'm looking forward to it. It'll be nice to get out of the house. Are you going to use the word stiff neck? Oh, yeah. I'm going to say stiff neck as much as I can on your show. Okay, good. That'll be fun, won't it?

It'll be fun. It'll be fun. For us and about the 20 people that listen to this. Josh, I've got a confession. I cannot be organised and think about things, and this probably goes back to the mental load. Lou keeps talking. It's Lou's birthday in June, right?

And also we're having a party for the kids in June because we're allowed 30 people in your garden now, aren't you? Yeah. And stuff. So basically we can invite their schoolmates. Yeah. We're having to be quite brutal with the invite list. Do the kids count?

I don't know. But even with the kids, but what we're doing is we're not really inviting family or like cousins and stuff on both sides, which seems harsh. But then once you start inviting Lou's niece and nephews and my niece and nephews, it gets to like well over 30 because there's also like near enough 30 kids in the class, but then with parents.

So what we're going to say is come from two and you can leave your kids here. So we're saying they can leave the kids. So that's what we suggested. If they want to leave their kids for like three hours because we're going to get an entertainer and a bouncy castle, they can. And then that'll keep us under the 30.

Because if everyone stays with their kids, we will go over 30, obviously. So we're doing that. But Lou keeps talking to me about it. And she goes, what are you doing that day in your diary? And what I've done is I've downloaded the Euros diary for football. And I'll be honest with you, when the Euros or the World Cup's on, I can't think of anything else. It's like we're doing little things for a birthday and it's like the quarterfinals oh no i'm just like yeah i'm

sure that'll be fine and then now because it's so confusing my diary because it's like you're like am i doing tipping point or am i doing england versus austria well no let me if i send you my diary for this day i'll show you we can put this on the on the Instagram it's like I can't say yes or no because I don't know I don't know who's qualified oh Rob that is a tough situation to be in yeah exactly

that is a that is a tough what am I up to that day well it it fully depends whether Marcus Rashford can turn it on

at international level and also what I'd normally do at a normal party it would be a free-for-all so I'd have all my brothers there my mum and dad and then like you got

I'd invite you guys and all that and then if you invite enough people that are into the football you should have the football but i think what i'm going to do is going hard going early just have the football on the telly with kids running about yeah i think you're gonna have to i i do you do this 2014 i didn't do this at the world cup and i regretted it because i missed the first two goals of Brazil 7, Germany... No, Germany 7, Brazil 1 because I was doing Mock the Week.

And then ever since, I've refused to put work in during the Euros. A hundred percent, mate. That goes in first and then the bookings of other stuff. Because, you know... And also as well, what I used to love is when it's really far away and all the games are at 11am, that is perfect for a comedian because there's loads of like eight o'clock games yeah and

what's annoying though if you do watch the football and it's the summer you have the back doors open if you pause your telly or watch it on delay it's ruined because you hear people cheering in the garden yes you cannot watch it on delay so that's that's what i'm getting a bit stressed out at the moment because i i had a i had a uh six month at at the moment. Because I had a six-month-old in the World Cup. Then I ended up looking after the kids when the games were on. I told you that when I put, I gave her milk in her ear instead of her mouth because I was watching the football. That was a low point.

But if that had led to a goal, you'd have had to do it every corner. You know you're the lucky charm. Then she gets to 17 and I'm just still pouring milk in her ear watching the football. It's a long story, but we've won the World Cup ever since. I always find it, you'll get a comedian, right? And they'll go, I can't believe it. I've got a gig the night of the England semi-final.

And I'll think, that is your own fault. Yes, you know when that semi-final was. You should have tracked that from six months ago. The information was all there for you to see but yeah they've not sprung it on you yeah they've not moved it this is always there i heard about a top level comedian once rob who had a tour show and he he put the match on an ipad behind the you know the speaker at the front of the stage. How?

No way. Could you imagine? Did he make a thing of it? No. So the audience didn't know. He must be, he's too good at comedy to do that. How can you do that?

How can you enjoy that? I remember once though, because I used to, I recorded a game, right? When it was the Euros, right? Yeah.

I recorded a game that I wanted to watch. I don't know if it was an England game because I'd done Mott the Week because Mott the Week was normally filmed during June, isn't it? Yeah. And obviously I couldn't turn it down. You had to do it.

But I recorded the game and I said to everyone, oh, don't tell me because I'm going to watch it when I get home. And everyone respected that. No one told me anything. And I got in the car and I said to the driver, I've not seen the football.

I've recorded it. Let me, you know, just let's not. He went, fine. I went, I'm going to put, you know, I'm going to just, he went, I'll turn the I've not seen the football. I've recorded it. Let me, you know, just let's not, don't, he went, fine. I went, I'm going to put, you know, I'm going to just, he went, I'll turn the radio off and that's fine. I went, cool. Thanks, mate. And we're driving along and it's sunny, balmy, sunny day.

Put the window down. I sit there and literally there are traffic lights. And I thought, how have I done this? I've got for an entire show, blah, blah, blah. And I literally, as I drove past, I went, I can't believe it. One nil. He gave away that penalty. He ate you for a minute. He away that penalty we always do that and i was like brilliant not only do i know the result i know exactly how am i so you've got to be careful in booking stuff in but and that's the thing normally it was just work

you had to worry about but then kids arrive and i think the best thing is always to stay in your own house and then you're in control of the telly. You can't – what I'd say is for you, though, it's great with a newborn. We've said this before. Take your phone or your iPad with you wherever you go and then go, I'm just going to take the baby for a walk and you just sit in a park and watch it. I think a newborn is perfect for the non-England games. Yes, but when you want to have a drink and get into it,

you can't concentrate on a child properly. No. During the 2018 World Cup, my daughter fell over. So she would have been eight months, just before England-Columbia, the second round game, about 6pm. She fell over and hit her head. Oh, no.

A&E? She was fine, Rob. She was fine. I've never in my life, the thought of, not now. Not at this. Not at this. Not at this moment. Fratious goal tomorrow.

Come on, mate. So what happened? Well, we did NHS 111, and they took us through it. The advice of NHS 111, they did a load of things that we did. She was fine. And then it just slightly overshadowed the game, the build-up. But to be honest, I'm not good with build-up anyway. No, you're not.

In a way, it was a good distraction. In a way, it was better that she hurt her head, just so you could focus on the game rather than worry the build-up. Do you know what I mean? Exactly, exactly. Do you want some Instagram messages, Josh? Yes, please. Here we go.

I'm writing in. This is from Matt, aged 33 and a half. Hello, Josh and Rob. I'm writing in. This is from Matt, age 33 and a half. Hello, Josh and Rob. I'm writing in as the salty Josh stories have typically focused on him being salty when approached by fans or at work. However, to keep in line with the theme of the podcast,

I write in with a tale of salty parenting by Josh on behalf of my sister who doesn't listen to the podcast. Oh, wow. But she's told this story and it's got back to us. My sister and husband and nephew live near Josh. I've encountered the infamous dodgy traffic light on many occasions when visiting them. On one sunny morning a few weeks ago, my sister and her husband had taken my nephew to the playground

with the big long slides, which Josh often references. My nephew was about to get on one of the big slides when a child pushed in front of him. Not wanting to discipline somebody else's child, my sister and husband let it pass however the cute jumping child's parent then approached it was none other than josh himself no she wouldn't have she wouldn't have pushed in josh said to them oh did she push in front of him and then proceeded to do absolutely nothing about true not true and no apology on his daughter's behalf no faux discipline of his daughter even for show he just carried on as if nothing had happened no wonder she doesn't want to put on a coat with sub-optimal parenting like that oh my word he's gone in on you here that is

an accusation and i'm gonna say it's bullshit because i i tell you what i tell you my role at the park rob yeah it is pure let loads of people push in front of us because i'm too too embarrassed to you're weak i'm weak i'm totally weak at the park you're a park bitch yeah i i me and my daughter a park bitch there there is no way that we if you were to do if you were to do a tally of cues that we've jumped versus cues that we've been jumped in front of, I reckon we're about a mile behind. Also, as well, in your defence, you will apologise for something that you haven't done.

Yes, exactly. You are a very British apologist. Yeah, exactly. I'm an apologist. On a more serious note, as a father of two girls, three in one, I've loved the podcast. On a more serious note, that first accusation was pretty serious, mate. On a more serious note, as a father of two girls uh three and one i've loved the serious note that first accusation was pretty serious mate on a more serious note the father of two girls aged three and one i love the podcast it's been super helpful in keeping me relaxed and upbeat particularly as

i want you all to arrive mid-pandemic hopefully if you print this story um my sister and husband become avid listeners too i think i think that's i think they've they've made i don't want liars listening to this podcast rob i will i will i will take liars um yeah i would i mean we'll take anyone yeah fine oh mildly salty josh oh it's all kicking off josh yeah bars on planes and mildly salty josh i've just listened to the episode we talk about bars on planes and had to write in so in a bit of a long story i came. If this is about being drunk on a plane, then I plead guilty straight away. All right, this is a good one. It is true.

You've never let me say it. Anyway, about bars on a plane, my friend told me when she was listening to this new podcast that you and Josh present, and I mentioned that I'd met Josh and he'd been a bit grouchy. Oh, well, that's fine. She laughed and said,

so you had a salty Josh Widdicombe encounter. So I started this deal and have been a loyal listener since. No kids and don't want them. So listening just reminds me of why my decision is a good one. Back in 2013, after Last Leg had kicked off,

Josh flew Virgin Atlantic. I served him at the gate and he didn't even acknowledge me. Rude, I thought. Now Josh says he's never experienced a bar on a plane, but that day he came through priority boarding for upper class, which unless he was too posh to cum and he would have been flying upper class and virgin, have bars on their planes. Congratulations on the baby, Naomi. The only time I've flown and had a bar on a plane was not 2013 i would have i think we would have just

paid for priority boarding well the one time when we had a bar on an emirates flight going to australia yeah for filming uh the last leg in australia and we drank the whole way to dubai where we were changing not adam suffice to say me say. Me, Alex, and the producer, Ben, who is – he's not the producer anymore. He is a liability in these situations. Yeah, and especially you three all come from – I think – I don't know about Ben as much, but you and Alex Brooker have not been brought up with the lifestyle of flying business to Australia on a plane.

So you just go fucking feral, don't you, when you're first – We got to Dubai, and they said – and you're first... We got to Dubai and they said... And you're like, you should have told us this six hours ago. We get to Dubai, we've been drinking for six hours and they say, just so you know, it is illegal to be drunk in Dubai in the airport so you're going to need to sober up or at least act sober. So you had to pretend to be sober in Dubai?

It was genuinely terrifying to basically be given plied with booze all the way into a dry area where it's illegal to be drunk yeah it's like being forced to a christening yeah in the in the church sat in the front you can't really be drunk in here what when i also when you go on the emirates they give you a little like the little bag didn't they with like goodies in and all that like moisturizers and stuff and toothpaste when i first flew with them those because because i've never flown like that before and everyone else was like seasoned travelers like frequent flights they didn't even want their bag of goodies so i nicked

them all i was like dell boy i came off that plane with a hold all and I had 10 bags and I wrapped them all up and gave Matt his Christmas present. A walking cliche. Oh dear. Right. Do you keep the salties

coming in? I always enjoy them even if they are, you know, slightly fabricated. Yeah, and also I've been out on the piss a lot recently, so I'm sure there's a few salties in the bank for me. Yeah, I haven't.

One day again, I will be out on the piss, and I cannot wait. We've got an unsalty story from a locksmith here from East London. Josh, you're looking great, guy. Splashing the cash around, even. Yeah, he just sent this from his brand new iPhone 10, whatever the new one is, 12, I don't know. Right, Josh, who's on the podcast this week? Ah, now, Rob, I'm going to say it.

Yes. You have brought to us one of the great stiff neck bookings. I mean... Anyone who saw this listed would never have thought this is a Rob Beckett booking. Yeah. Do you know what? I just linked up with an author friend of mine online and said hey do you want to come on and talk about being a parent and living in denmark denmark living in denmark i do really lose my stiff

neck credibility when i call denmark denmark yeah by accident genuinely uh absolutely fascinating one of the most fascinating interviews we've done and And I'd say of all the interviews we've done, it's the one I've quoted the most to other people, in fact, since we've done it. Oh, really? Yeah. You know in Denmark this. Do you know in Denmark that? I am a bore on the subject now, Rob.

I know. Everyone hates me about it. But yeah, Helen's brilliant. She's got loads of good books out about being happy or sad and living life. And this one's about when she went to Denmark with her husband because his job changed. And then they lived in Denmark for a year. It's called A Year of Living Danishly. And then they were trying for a baby

and they were struggling to have a baby. And then when they moved to Denmark, she got pregnant and now she's got three kids. And we spoke to her about bringing those kids up as a freelance journalist and living in Denmark. And it was great, really interesting. Brilliant. And really funny.

And yes, a very stiff neck booking. But maybe Rob Beckett 2.0, maybe I've got a stiff neck, Josh. Let's get Helen Russell on. Here come the carrots making their way upfield, followed by the whole wheat bread, over to the two dozen eggs. Sir, do you do this every time?

Sorry, I've been a little excited ever since I got this BMO Toronto FC cashback MasterCard. Oh, and the broccoli boots are over the line. What a goal! How would you like to pay, sir? Credit, please. Make every purchase a win with the BMO Toronto FC cashback MasterCard with up to 5% cashback on your purchases in your first three months.

Terms and conditions apply. Helen Russell, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. We're very excited. I'm really overexcited. I've actually nearly fallen out of friends over you and your book, Helen, because I recommended it to so many people. I actually heard my brother today go, oh, not him and that fucking book again. It just sort of made me feel like I was growing up at home again. But yeah, A Year of Living Danishly is the book we're talking about. Would it be better for me or

for you to introduce what that book is and how it came about, Helen? What do you reckon? I can explain it. Yeah. So I was living and working for 12 years as a journalist in London. I was at Marie Claire magazine. I was of living the London life um and then had no intention of leaving but I was stressed all the time I was tired as many people are um and I'd also been we'd been trying for a baby for as long as my husband and I could remember we'd had years of fertility treatment but nothing seemed to be working we were always so tired and stressed and then one day my husband came home and told me he'd been offered his dream job working for Lego in Denmark and we knew nothing about Denmark.

Of course. It's the only job that's in Denmark, isn't it? It's that or it's Carlsberg. Bacon. Yeah, bacon. And bacon. Don't forget the bacon. I know this isn't the point, but we will get to it.

But I do need to dig down in what his dream job working at Lego was and what his previous job that led to the dream job working at Lego is. I feel like I can't quite say the previous job because you know linkedin all those people but it was working for a major grocer was it duplo the previous job yeah it was connects it was working for a grocer right who had a lot of food products but were quite tight with them perhaps and then he he works in environmental stuff so he got to do that for he just loved lego he's loved lego since he was little so it was just you know super great for

him i mean i'll take a security job at lego at this stage just for the discount could i just ask one more question then we'll move on do you ever get any damaged like like when i used to work at waterstones say a book's cover got ripped that's dibs anyone can have that is there a do you ever get damaged lego no because it's quite hard to damage lego i mean you can put it through the washing machine yeah wash wash that goes that thing well i mean well you are why i'm on the podcast i do have children now and a lot of lego does end up in pockets going through the wash you hear a rattle and that's never good yeah of course anyway let's get off sorry let's get back to your journey from being a journalist in stressed out london and then your partner got a job in denmark his dream job

for lego yeah and you obviously at that point didn't have a job to go to in denmark is that right yeah so that was a bit terrifying and i quit my job and thought oh i'll go freelance and then i thought i'd give it a year and see if I could change the way I lived and get happier. Denmark had just been voted the happiest country in the world in these polls. And I started digging into that and found out that Danes had been voted the happiest nation in the world going back to the 70s. So I became really interested in this and I started writing for British newspapers as a freelancer about the Danish way of life. And then looking at a different area of Danish living each month to see what Danes did differently.

So then I wrote The Year of Living Danishly. And halfway through my year of living Danishly, I found out that I was miraculously pregnant. Amazing. And now I also have twins. So I went on from this space of... So your luck ran out. Oh, my goodness.

And Denmark's just been voted the least unhappy place on Earth with everyone now with twins. So yeah, from thinking I was going to have no children and sort of trying to come to terms with that, in a very short space of time, I had three. And luckily, it turns out Denmark's quite good for kids. But yeah, a steep, steep learning curve. So Denmark, population about 5 million.

I checked. I didn't know that. I've watched a documentary on Lego. Of course I have. I'm sure Rob has watched it as well. And they're based in like a small town that's just basically people who work at Lego, aren't they? Yeah, that's right. I live in the middle of nowhere.

No, I'm not in the jazzy Copenhagen bit. It is the middle of nowhere in a place called rural Jutland. And yes, there's not that much going on. Nazi Copenhagen bit. It is the middle of nowhere in a place called Rural Uland. And yes, there's not that much going on. I mean, we're very excited. Like post-COVID, the big four are open again. And the big four are Legoland, Lego House, this place called Wow Park, and the zoo.

I mean, there's very little to do. Wow Park sounds amazing. I mean, you're really setting your stall out if it's just a Ferris wheel, isn't it? I know, the arrogance. Yeah, wow. That's not very Danish, is setting your stool out if it's just a ferris wheel isn't it like i know the arrogance yeah wow that's not very danish is it wow park it's true and how old are your children now sorry we didn't get their ages yeah so i have um i have a little ginger child who no one knows where the ginger hair came from but he is seven now and my twins are just turned four so we are busy oh blimey that is a busy house oh yeah it's fairly recently then you you wrote the book um and you've had about four since you've absolutely you're banging out books at the rate of children at the moment well there was a stage where I was just writing a book every time

I had a baby and then I thought well I want to write I don't want another baby like how am I going to do this but yes I think um well because I have to be freelance here because my Danish is still terrible um and working as a journalist I was a Scandinavian correspondent for The Guardian for a while. But actually, it's quite hard to react to news stories. I'd be asked, like, can I go and cover a bomb going off in Sweden? And I'd be like, no, I've got a shepherd's pie in the oven. It's very hard to do that once you have a kid. Yeah, exactly.

Books work quite well for that. So you moved over there. Your Danish is now not brilliant, you say, but presumably you had no Danish when you moved over there, right? Would that be fair? No, no Danish, no friends, no family. I mean, it was quite a shocker. What's that like?

Well, you just sort of, I don't often sort of take big risks with bravado, but I somehow agreed to move here. And then my husband left to go to work at 7 30 a.m because the working day starts at 8 here and ends early as well and I was just sort of in this bleak in the middle of nowhere in January and it was very much like the killing just forests all around I thought what have I done um yeah so I think work was a real salvation there of just keeping busy and that helped helped me meet people as well and build up friends around here. Of course.

And do you genuinely believe, though, that a slightly more relaxed way of life helped you get pregnant? Or do you think it was more luck? Or do you think it had an impact? Yeah, I definitely think it had an impact. Because I'd been doing all of the things in London. I'd been going to St Mary's Hospital and going to Tooting every week. Three times a week, I was having all these appointments whilst trying to fit it in and around my really high-powered job.

Was that IVF? Yeah, yeah. And then here, it was just a different pace of life. However, interestingly, for having the twins, it's very hard to relax enough to get pregnant when you already have a toddler. So that was IVF so the first one wasn't IVF but the twins were IVF yeah when you got there did you what were

the main lifestyle changes because we talk about this more relaxed way of life but that's kind of quite a nebulous idea because all I know currently is that you go to work at 8am, which to me sounds much, much worse. Yes, this is true. But you finish at four. And actually, the average day... Like an electrician. Yeah. The average day does 33 hours a week, which is, you know, so much less than I was used to doing in London. And they're quite, there's this more of a mentality of you're trusted to do your job and then leave. There's no presenteeism and you know back in many jobs in London you know you're pat on the back if you're still at your desk at 7 p.m and that's not the case here somebody did it in Lego and they got a lecture

on time management and a leaflet about efficiency oh wow they love a leaflet absolutely love a leaflet last stage of the working day leave yeah so there's much more of an emphasis on you know you have to leave at four o'clock because everybody works 80 of mothers work you have to pick your kids up from daycare and you know the men and the women are tend to be involved in the pickup in in making a home-cooked meal food is very expensive eating out is really expensive so even before corona most people are getting home to cook a family meal each night so it's there's just more of an emphasis on on doing your work getting home having a life family meal each night. So there's just more of an emphasis on doing your work, getting home, having a life, doing lots of hobbies as well. That's big in Denmark.

Oh, wow. And how was it different, obviously, when you didn't have kids and you were there, you were sort of alone. And I find having kids makes you sort of get into the local community more, where, you know, when you're busy doing your own thing, you don't really notice. But when you've got to find a place for them to learn to swim or to find a nursery and stuff how was it having a baby in that environment was it is it different to how you sell your friends and families with kids in the UK yeah yeah for sure it is and there's not really NCT type stuff so I didn't have that ready-made friendship group for for new parents so I did have to to go out there I'm gonna shock you here Helen it's not a it's not a friendship group it's people that you are forced to be in a whatsapp group with until you all decide

you don't like each other and never message again so don't don't be sold this friendship group there's a reason Danes are more happy and they haven't got NCT that's the reason yeah so so there's a lot of that and there's a lot of sitting around in cafes. And yeah, it's quite civilised. What I did find, though, is having twins, and maybe you've had guests on before who had a similar experience, that you can't actually get to many of the child-related activities because you can't get a double stroller anywhere. So I made some friends while I had one child, but when you have twins, it was impossible. Oh, just because of the space.

I know, I think you can physically buy one, can't you? Or is it just not the space? Well, so I measured up. So the Danish pastries, that's another reason they're happier. The Danish pastries are amazing. And I measured up the doorway. I don't know if I believe you now.

What? The Danish pastries sounds like you've never moved to Denmark and you're now winging it. They must have actual names, the Danish pastries in Denmark, don't they? Yeah, they're called Wienerbrot. There we go. Now we're talking.

Give me more of these. Wienerbrot. Wienerbrot, Viennese bread. And there's the Froggsnapper, the Frogsnapper. There's one called Baker's Badeye because it's got this creamy custard goo in the middle. Baker's Badeye? Yeah. Sounds like something horrific in Poland, Baker's Badeye.

Sorry to bring the tone down, everyone. So the double stroller, you measured it. There was no space. I measured the doorway to my favourite bakery before I bought the stroller to check it could still fit in. That is commitment to pastry. Yeah, I was a winner. But I found that lots of the baby activities,

I just couldn't manoeuvre it in or I couldn't carry the babies upstairs both at the same time. So's a it's a shocker so they would have been you would have a three-year-old and then the twins would that be right yeah a very angry red-headed three-year-old annoyed at having to share with two babies yeah and and so it's kind of a cafe culture is that is that a kind of way you describe it yeah I Yeah, I think so. And bakeries and coffee, they're big, big coffee drinkers. And so actually this whole idea of this hygge that has become quite famous over the last few years, but that having coffee and cake together is a normal part of the day.

So that was nice and that's good for new parents. Yeah, because isn't that in winter when obviously it's dark so much earlier in the winter in Denmark that you sort of just try and make the home cosy and you want to stay in and get like warm and cosy rather than going out on the piss, start we do in this country? Yeah, exactly. And the weather is so bad. It's so cold and dark, maybe October through March. That's a big part of the year, isn't it, to be happy in? Yeah, I know. You just cram it all in in the summer. But they also let babies sleep outside in their strollers or in their big prams, big kind of Mary Poppins-style prams called barnaborns. And they sleep outside strapped in them so they can't escape

up until minus 20 degrees. So it means parents could be inside the cafe just relaxing while the kids are outside freezing. So they just leave them outside. So is that why they obviously – so they just leave them outside so is that why they obviously so they'll just leave them outside to sleep while they're in having a cup of coffee yeah yeah wow it takes some getting used to but it's pretty good yeah there's a bit of oh i shouldn't really but everyone else is doing it why not how did it feel the first time you did that oh well i was shitting myself i mean i was sitting by the window and sort of peeking staring through just getting quite jittery on my third

coffee of the day because i was so tired but you know they survived very good lungs now um fresh air good for the skin so yeah they that's what they like to do and you said that kind of it's quite expensive to eat out or to drink. Can I have some numbers on that? Yeah, you can have some stats. How much is a pint? Oh, okay. So I'd say, and maybe I've been out of London for too long,

but I'd say a pint can be, you're probably looking at between seven and ten quid. That's a lot, right? That's the middle of nowhere. You're not even in a capital city. Yeah, not even somewhere good. Yeah. So I think a supermarket shop is about 25% more expensive than in the UK. So all the shops are waitrose. Yeah, all the shops are waitrose. And you're also paying really high income tax. So it is a bit of a shocker. But then once you see the welfare system and the education is all free and even private schools are subsidised.

So there's a lot that people are looked after. Yeah. Because from a childcare point of view, is there not a lot, there's a lot of support early on. Is that correct? Yeah. So you're guaranteed a place in high quality state run daycare from six months old. And so most kids are in daycare before they are one and that's every day because parents go back to work full-time there's not much of a part-time culture so much

keep talking here we go i know i'm getting on the plane so sometimes i listen to you guys talking about guilt about sending kids in for not all of the days and my kids have gone five days a week i mean you get 40 hours so the parents are only working 33 hours. Yeah, exactly. What if they're just sat there outside for seven hours in minus 20? There's a lot of coffee to drink. It's a real rota stuff going on with the daycare. Well, parents are very big into hobbies and they're very big into putting the oxygen mask on first.

So I think, yeah, they do have quite a nice life. Parents look after themselves. Do you think it's a little bit of sometimes, I think, as a parent, especially in the UK, there is all this, a lot of guilt, and that you constantly go, and is my child okay? Is my child okay? And then what you then do is, you know, you don't give yourself enough, like, time for your own self-care,

you know, like a hobby or some relaxation, so that actually by a kid staying in daycare a little bit longer and you reading a book or doing some exercise, you'll go into being a parent better because you've had your own time. I think in this country, sort of, no, go sort the kids out, but it's actually worse in a way because you don't have time to chill yourself. Yeah, I think that's definitely true. And as you say, it's because it's what the people around you are doing.

So I don't feel bad about it because everyone around me is doing the same, but I'm sure if I was in the UK, I would have a massive guilt about it. Yeah, of course. And so were in a five days a week from six months the ginger head one was because I had to write a book well yeah because that's I found that interesting you don't give away a lot of names so like your husband's called like lego boy or lego man and your kids are the ginger one and the twins and stuff yeah because I just feel, and of course it's everyone's individual choice, but I kind of want them to decide when they want to.

And also it's a really small community and I didn't know how my book could be received and I didn't want my husband to lose his job. And now it's kind of published in like 30 countries around the world. And it would just be a bit awkward. Yeah. I mean, Lego man, it could be about 20,000 people in just your village. Everyone works in Lego. Wow, park man. Hello, Alan Davis here, inviting you to join me by listening to a new podcast, Seven Pillars. Each episode, I'll be talking to a famous guest to discuss seven significant cultural

influences, inspirations, or experiences. Seven things that helped shape them, that they loved, or that they return to again and again and hold a special place in their life. From films and music, books, food, places, and memories, the podcast asks seven questions that will spark stories for the guests and give the listener an insight into the minds and passions of some of the most interesting comedians actors writers philosophers and raconteurs around starting with comedian romesh ranganathan in episode one which is out now and in the coming weeks we have hollywood actor walton goggins comedy legend joe brand author and intellectual heavyweight

Jay Parini and many more. You can find the show by searching Seven Pillars on all podcast platforms. And what point in the year, because obviously you've gone there and you say like it's your husband's gone to work and it's 8am and you're in the middle of a forest basically on day one how long did it take before you thought this is for me I'm gonna stay well I think I thought it was quite nice about 200 pages by summer yes it's not an easy convincing is it Helen yeah I think that's fair Rob yeah I think it took a while I think it took really I had by the end of my pregnancy by the end of the year as it's starting to get darker I knew I wasn't there my doctor said I wasn't allowed to get on a plane anymore so then I

sort of thought well it's going to be more than a year here because I can't go anywhere and then once I had my son here and realized how good it was for kids so I think it probably took the whole year to decide okay we'll give it another year but we've only ever said oh one more year one more year yeah here we are still here I really so do you imagine you'd come back one day well I'd like to but I feel as though I haven't really been able to spend much time in the UK because either my twins were really small so I was only going for overnight for work stuff and then covid happened so i really feel very out of touch i need to sort of spend some good time in the uk and just it's going really well over here it's going really well i don't know if you're across the news but everyone's really happy it's the

equivalent if you were in a pub with your mates and we were trying to convince you to come to our pubs it's empty with one bloke in the corner smoking that is all that's happening and it's not as if we yeah and it sticks up here but you know what we're getting injections we we are going to with one bloke in the corner smoking. That is all that's happening. And it smells of weed. And it stinks of piss. But do you know what? We're getting injections. We are going to inject in people in some places. The one thing, though, because I follow you on Instagram, that looks very stressful living in Denmark with the kids,

is sometimes if I just go to the park and I try and put them in a mud suit or something, but when it's winter, just getting myself dressed for a really cold day exhausts me and tires me but when I looked at your it was like I think you had all of the outfits you need for three children like toddlers and babies to wear and they were just like thermal trousers thermal tops hats gloves boots and then he's like waders all right little fishermen like it was giving me like an anxiety attack just looking at how many layers a kid needs for that weather it is quite stressful but it's almost like you have kind of selective memory because i've almost wiped that out that was winter i'm not going to think winter's

so awful i'm not going to think about that till next winter so now we're in um springtime where they have to wear wind suits which just makes me think of what's a wind suit it's like you know like your grandma might wear a quilted jacket sort of padded but quilted yeah yeah they wear that top and bottom or they wear rain suits top and bottom what's it like at the height of summer then well actually no at the height of summer it it can be really hot global warming and everything um yeah that's positive i tried to take the kids home in just their pants. And I thought, it's Scandinavia. People are quite liberal.

It's a five-minute walk. I thought they can just walk in their pants. And the teacher told me I couldn't do that. So they're quite rule-abiding. And there is some line I had crossed there. But it can get hot. You can't wear pants. It's a bit stiff-necky, I'd say, from a point of view of this podcast.

They love a rule. Yeah of this podcast they love a rule yeah they do really love a rule yeah and but i think that's why they did quite well on covid at the beginning or not having such a bad response to covid because everybody just followed the rules and did as they were told yeah yeah especially in the winter you stay in anyway it's not lockdown is basically eight months of the year well the big four are shut rob so what are you gonna do if wild park's shut I'm not socialising. It's not about you. That's how they stopped Covid.

They closed Wild Park. That was it. And so what are other parents like with their kids compared to British? Because in Britain, if a kid's being naughty, you won't tell them off because it's too British and awkward. But would a Dane say, tell your kid off if they're breaking the rules? It's so weird because Danes are quite private. So usually they won't.

But I seem to have a face that invites people offering their opinions on stuff because I do get told off quite a lot. But I know that the cliche is that Danes will not interfere with your parenting. But I get a lot of advice. Oh, really? I don't know. Yeah. Yes. Because there's rules about how warm

you're supposed to dress a child you know like the wind suit or the snowsuit or your balaclava's not on enough and I get quite a lot of feedback about that but I don't know that that's universal do you think there's like a different I know it comes about culturally or whatever but do you think the Danish personality is different to the British personality like could you imagine a lot of these things catching on in the UK even you know the 33 hour week or whatever or is it a kind of inbuilt thing in the Danish psyche that's really interesting I think there's there's definitely a bit of that because they have this thing called Yante's law which is this idea that everyone is equal um so you're not supposed to show off. So people who come from the UK or the US to work in Danish companies, for example, get quite teased about their CVs because your CV is all about showing off.

And that's just not done here. And I think as well, interestingly, looking at schools, as I have been recently, since the Second World War, education and democracy have been quite intertwined in Denmark because it was occupied by the Germans. And so there was a real emphasis on teaching kids to question authority because they didn't want to find themselves in that position again. So interestingly, Hitler has made Danes quite questioning of authority and quite independent but not thinking they're better than anyone else.

So it's quite a different psyche, I'd say, to the UK one. Do you notice your kids are more Danish than they are English now? Yeah, it's exhausting. Mummy, my balaclava's not all right. Sorry, halfway through that I tried to do a Danish accent and I had no idea what one was, so I just did Osh English. Sorry, Helen. Like Margot from The Good Life.

Everyone is equal, so teachers and parents aren't treated with any reverence you know because because they're older um and also they don't really they don't call them like toddler tantrums in denmark they call it the boundary years so it's um it's very much about oh you're just testing your boundaries and that is seen as a good thing so i think yeah my kids definitely know that they can push and question things I'm sure that is good in the long run but it is quite tiring yeah I suppose you'd notice more I don't know if you've got like like friends of kids or um your own any nieces or nephews but when they get together how different they might be because of Covid and stuff like that I think

that's when it will be it'll really show that sort of culture clash that you just sort of are used to now yes um with things like that but i think that's a bit of a pr spin isn't it just testing their boundaries as they're like screaming in your face and hitting you they're just testing the boundary yeah i think what's also frustrating for me as a writer is that the emphasis on reading is so much later here so kids don't learn to read properly till they're about eight and I'm sure I was like smashing through books at that age but there's just very much like working on the social stuff first and yeah that's great but I think that's very important though because even a lot

of my daughter's school it's there's some kids there that can like fluently read like read and write because they went to these preschools where basically they tell you by that leaving preschool and you start school you can sort I can't remember what they're called but like they try and get you to reading and writing level so it's like some people some parents are so really obsessed with that but I'm like it's such a small part of what makes someone like a sort of a good successful person growing up isn't it the reading and writing it's the social skills the school the being able to read social interactions and stuff like that. And I think maybe that's in Denmark, they sort of prioritise that over the reading because most people could read and write by, you know,

no one's urgently needing to read or write by five, are they? No, that's true. It's not like a panic station. That's true. It's like you get to a restaurant and go, well, are you reading the menu or not? Because I've had enough today. Do you find you're at home, you're going, I'm going to smuggle in some kind of English teaching here and teach them to read and write?

Oh, my God. Well, lockdown, when we're going to have to teach. Oh, it's terrible at homeschooling. I really thought I'd be quite good at it because I'm quite, you know, I wanted to quite a lot be a Blue Peter presenter when I was growing up and I'm quite, like, cheerful and I quite like craft and I thought I'm going to nail this. I'm going to absolutely smash it. And I I was so frustrated and because they teach everything very differently to the way we

were taught in schools yeah I was not a good lockdown teacher so what kind of things are they teaching them when you say it's kind of social learning and stuff what kind of things are you learning in a Danish primary school or whatever the equivalent is well they I mean they've they're doing a unit on habitats right now and they've done units on space i mean it's just weird they know about greek mythology but they don't have to spell mythology i mean it's just odd it's an odd combination so they'll be talking to you about different greek myths but can't read and write yeah exactly yeah and tonight when i was putting my son to bed he said, you better let me go to sleep or I'll have your guts for garters. I was like, all right, thanks. And then he said, and I'll have your nose for a hose.

And then he just started rhyming all these bits of bodies he was going to. I mean, it's just odd. The level and the things that they pick up. It's just strange. And so would you, if you brought those kids back into the UK now, it'd be a real kind of culture. They'd go to school and this teacher would be like, well, I don't know what group to put them in. They're both the cleverest and the least clever child I've ever taught. At the age of eight. Yeah.

Sat in the back smoking a cigar, completely illiterate, but talking about the pros and cons of different philosophers. Oh, and also because they're very open to risk. So my son goes to Scouts and I got a message from the teacher, from the Scout leader last week saying on Wednesday we'll make a campfire. Bring daggers. So like they're all

tooled up. They can use swords and axes and they have their own knives. Bring daggers? Yeah. Oh yeah, but I live in East London and the schools are very similar little danish road men but the things they they're quite brutal with with animals as well because the copenhagen zoo got in trouble didn't they with the giraffe and stuff like that and what

they exposed kids to have they um you can correct me on this but they're basically they had too many drafts so they killed the draft and then they basically dissected it in front of school groups what and so school school kids could go and watch a giraffe and they'd cut open the giraffe and go and look at all its organs is that is that right yeah that's right marius r.i.p marius yes they do that and they do that but you know what no danes were surprised at all and every day and i speak to will have a story from their youth from a school trip where they said, oh, yeah, we went to go and see a lion get dissected. Or like, yeah, we went round an abattoir as our school trip

when we were in middle school. So it's just very normal. Wow. No wonder they don't teach them to write. Imagine the complaints they'd get at the diary entry. Well, it means Nordic noir is no surprise at all. Exactly. Imagine, what did you do at school stage?

I just saw my teacher shank up a lion. He means Nordic Noir is no surprise at all. Yeah, exactly. Imagine, what do you do at school stage? So my teacher shank up a lion. I mean, your kids might be too young for that, but have they been to anything like that, like the seven-year-old, seen any of that kind of stuff? He hasn't yet, but they've, because we're in the countryside, I mean, there's a lot of roadkill, so we see quite a lot of dead stuff hanging about.

And he's sort of, yeah, I got his head around that. And I guess it's better that he learns that way than, you know, learning it first when a close relative dies or someone you love dies. Yeah. Yeah, so teaching about death. They don't dissect them as well, do they? That seems a bit too brutal. I'll check.

Bad news, Nan's gone, but science is looking lively next week. It's biology course I'm sorting course this is a very personal just my own interest how would it be for me out there as a vegetarian well um i would like to tell you that eight years ago it would have been terrible and you would have starved and only eaten danish pastries however recently it's got a lot better i think copenhagen's fine and you there's everything and aarhus is another big city when there's everything but where i am there was no provision for vegetarians when i first came here you'd get sort of you'd ask for the salad or a vegetarian salad and there'd be sort of chicken on sprinkled on top um there was just no comprehension and people sometimes thought

the chicken didn't count so that was bad but now we've got a vegetarian restaurant um there's vegetarian options so yeah it's fine now there's kimchi in the in this in the supermarket oh yeah you'll be sorted josh that's all you need a bit of kimchi i love i love a bit of kimchi yeah it's alive it is alive isn't it i don't know i don't understand the science of it yeah three your three k's your your kefir your kombucha and your kimchi we haven haven't got kombucha here yet. This is the most Guardian this podcast has ever gone. Oh, no, sorry.

Do you know what, Helen? The biggest surprise is that Rob booked you. This is a booking that I would have made. This is an absolutely perfect Josh booking. Like, when Rob suggested you, I was like, has my phone gone wrong and I've texted myself? I don't understand how this has happened. Well know i always started off this podcast because i wanted to know if you could get kombucha in danish supermarkets and now i know you know so this is complete no but can you imagine the cost of it it's pretty punchy in london oh my god it

would be 20 quid no problem yeah well for a kombucha i mean i don't know what it is but i don't want to spend 20 quid on what's kombucha is that the drink it's like fermented tea is that right josh yes yes it is yes you'll see those well my my i'll be honest with you my my mother-in-law is all over the three k's but what was she racist that's a bit too much impact by her redlessly racist mother-in-law but let's not get bogged down by that. Everyone's got a past. Childcare, childcare. With the kids and stuff like that, what's the birthday party score?

Because we were speaking about this. Isn't it led by the teachers at the school, birthday parties for kids? Because in the UK, it's an absolute political nightmare. It's like a Cobra meeting with your partner trying to organise it, who to invite and stuff like that. How does it work in Denmark? It is brilliant. So tomorrow my twins have got a birthday party,

but all it means is that I don't have to make them a packed lunch, which making three packed lunches a day is a real ballik. So they are going to go to their daycare and then the parents of the birthday girl will take them to their home and they will have a party for an hour of chaos and cake and then they will come back to school and I will pick them up and then that will be done oh my god that is the dream yeah and I haven't quite been able to do it yet because it's been locked down for their birthdays and various things but yeah it's it's the dream so so if it was your kids birthday you'd go to

the daycare and get all the kids in that class but you also get the teachers so you're getting that supervision as well and then you just come to your house and have a party and then done in an hour. And then the teachers take them back and you can tidy up. Yeah, lovely. Oh my God, that is the dream. Yeah. And are all the parties the same? They're not really sort of entertainers and all that.

You literally come around, have some food, run around and break some stuff and then go. And what's it been like with people coming over and visiting you then? With keeping in touch with friends and stuff, like, have you kept in touch with them? Do they come and visiting you then with keeping in touch with friends and stuff like have you kept in touch with them do they come and visit you because I've got friends that have like moved to Cambridge and I visited them once in three years so you're telling me you're a terrible friend that's how I'd say pre-covid we did quite well it was quite busy the summer months quite busy um but yeah it's very interesting you do see people who I thought were some of our best friends have just not visited at all and people who I hadn't thought it was a particularly close bond have been over loads and we've become a lot closer during that time so yeah it definitely highlights things I think when they turned up the people without the close bond were like

what are you doing here why have you turned up I? I hardly know you. Free holiday, isn't it? Look, I know the WOW Centre's around the corner. I was going, it's not called the WOW Centre, is it? It sounds like an STD clinic. I've got to pop down the WOW Centre. I had a bit of a busy one last weekend. Fingers crossed I'm all right. So there's no plans to move back at the moment? You're happy where you are with the kids and stuff like that?

I don't know. Yeah, it's a really good place to raise kids. And it's very, there's no reason to leave other than that I'm not Danish. My Danish is not brilliant. I'm not sure this will ever feel completely like home. But it'll be a big wrench when we do. Of course. And with the rest of the education, how does it work?

Is it state paid for university? Is that correct? Yeah. So you get to study for free till you're 18. And then after the age of 18, you get paid to study with student grants. No way. So, yeah, they still get all that. Oh, really? Yeah, everything is a pretty good deal compared to other places.

Yeah, that sounds like a sort of a panicked Daily Mail hell headline of like mad lefties who plan to pay kids to go to uni. Pay for piss up by the taxpayer. But I suppose if you're a student, it must be, I was paying 160 a pint when I was a student and those students are looking at seven to 10 pounds a pint. Oh, yeah, Jesus. Well, I think interestingly you can buy um beer and

stuff from the age of 16 and then it's spirits is from 18 but i did a piece for for the guardian sorry about um gen z and i followed this this girl when she was turned 16 for her birthday party and she had to do um as many shots as her age so she had to do 16 shots and then she her mom gave her a puke bag to uh do the puke into and apparently this was tradition when you turned 16 in denmark and then i caught up with her again as she turned 21 this year um and she said yeah we don't we don't do that so much now so i think it has changed a little bit i think the drinking culture wow i was gonna say good luck on a 50th your last one pre-healthcare fine yeah um so so that was a bit old school,

a bit of an old school tradition on the 16th. Yeah. It's still quite, quite boozy. It's pretty boozy. And actually for your 25th birthday, if you're not married and none of them are married by 2025, they get tied to a lamppost and someone throws cinnamon at you.

Just because. All right, Helen, you've won your bet we'll believe anything okay boys and girls at all men and women at 25 yeah it used to be um i think traditionally it was because um if sailors went to sea to find spices this is what i've been told by the viking people um then and if they weren't married you'd throw the spices back at them and then they just included it to women very egalitarian um and chuck them but this means the streets smell lovely the next day it's great yeah just people tired to lampposts getting pelted with cinnamon would you be up for that josh is that something you'd like

is it is it ground or is it sticks it's ground it's ground it's ground okay okay that's um yeah it does smell nice doesn't it cinnamon if i had to choose something from the spice drawer to be thrown at me on my 25th birthday it'd be on the top three one thing i'm kind of like interested in is that obviously they come top of these studies of happiness and stuff like that but obviously that's a statistical thing or it's people answering a survey or something would you say on your day-to-day life you can feel that about people do you know i mean you can feel a different atmosphere yeah i think danes feel very lucky to be born in denmark because they're all very well educated because

all this education is free and they travel a lot back when we could travel. So they do see the rest of the world and see what a good deal they have on the whole. But also Denmark, it's not necessarily that they're the happiest, but they're the least unhappy. So many of the reasons for unhappiness have been taken away, like job insecurity or health insecurity.

Because this welfare state looks after people, there are fewer reasons to fall through the net and not be looked after. So they have a really nice baseline to work from. So I think, yeah, most people are, they're not sort of wandering around singing zippity-doo-dah, but they are pretty content with their life, I'd say. And there's not people that have been really sort of left on their own in society to sort of, you know, sort of suffer as much as are in other countries. So I imagine the mean average of happy is a lot higher. There's not people in terrible situations bringing down the average.

Yeah, I think so. And, you know, it's not perfect by any means. There's still, like, many of the challenges that other countries face. And I just wrote a new chapter for the end of The Living Danishly, updating since I moved here. And actually, you know, they've got a racism problem, the same as many countries have. There's not this egalitarian idea and that everyone is equal

doesn't always apply when it comes to people from different countries. So as an immigrant, me coming here as a blonde-haired, middle-class white woman, I had a different experience that I have learned than people coming from Syria or from Turkey. Yeah, it's not perfect by any means, but the theory is that everyone pays their taxes so that everyone is looked after. That's it. That's the goal. And you've written a few other books as well, Helen, if you wanted to mention them.

A lot of it is about being happy and How to Be Sad is your most recent book. Is that correct? Yeah. So I was basically, back when we could travel, I was going around the world talking about my books and speaking to people and being on panels and talking about happiness. You did a TED talk. That's very exciting, Helen, a TED talk. I did a TED talk. Thanks very much. Thanks very much. Yes. What happiness looks like around the world. But I would speak to people and they would ask how they could be happy. And often at times in their life when really this wasn't possible, like if they just lost a loved one or been made redundant. And I came to realise that many of us have a very narrow definition of happiness that means never being sad. And that is not possible. And actually, if we try and suppress our so-called negative thoughts, it actually

exacerbates them and makes it worse. And there are some good things about being sad. It can make us kinder and more clear eyed. And it's really how we have to live because sadness happens to all of us and especially teaching kids to be okay with sadness felt really important so yeah that's what I've been working on and I think personally I've had my little sister died when I was little so I have been aware of sadness for a long time but trying to research into happiness and having kids myself really brought it all into relief for me how how important it is to deal with these emotions, even with kids, even when we think kids can't understand these things. Yeah.

We do have to talk to kids about sad stuff too. Yeah, of course. I think having kids is sort of a lot of stuff in your past that you sort of have dealt with and haven't dealt with sort of rears its head because you have to go through certain life events that you've sort of hidden away. When you're running around and your career is the most important thing in your life, all of a sudden you are having to think about first days of school or when something bad happened or someone at school did this and that. And it takes you back there. So I think it sometimes creeps up when you, once you have kids, you sort of think you're pretty chill, but all other things start popping up.

I don't know if you found that. Yeah, and it's like, you know, it's like losing a layer of skin, isn't it? Having kids, I mean, suddenly, I mean, just the teariness gets, like, cranked up a notch. Yeah. And just everything, I felt like I felt everything a lot more once I'd had kids. Yeah, you're more vulnerable. Yeah. Because before, it's just you, you're out there on your own, you've got no real responsibilities.

Before you know it, you've got, you know, it's like going outside without your windcoat on, I imagine, in a Jutland. I wouldn't know, Rob. Your balaclava is just to the left you know and so if you came back to the UK do you think you'd live a different life in the UK to the one you were living before you left yes I think so because my kids would be used to such a different way of life i mean they'd be tooled up with their daggers for one thing but you know it would be more outdoorsy and i think i would be mindful of you know actually and from my kind of professional work and a lot of the research i've done into emotions and mood that actually i'm aware now that we are not more productive when we work all of the hours that we are sent the The Malcolm Gladwell study, the 10,000 hours thing, a lesser reported part of that study showed that the more successful people

actually are the ones who rested more. And so I think the Danes are really good on that. They work hard and then they play hard and then they sleep. I'd do that a bit more. I think so. That's my new approach from reading your book and doing stuff like calming down, Helen. That's my new approach.

Josh is still rewriting chapters of his book at 3 a.m. after a night feed. Which I'd argue is not the art of living Danishly. It is hard though. Like I'm not some higher level being these days. I am sitting, I'm speaking to you right now from a cupboard because in Scandinavia, nobody has carpets or curtains. So everything's very echoey.

I'm in a cupboard. But this is where the Swedes have a phrase, your smoltronstalle, your symbolic strawberry patch. And it's a place everyone has in their house where they can escape to when it's all too much. And so once people have kids, they have either a cupboard that they hide in or in the car. And so I'm in this cupboard, which has become mine.

And there have been times when the kids are little and they're all screaming. And there's so many of them. And so I'm in this cupboard, which has become mine. And there have been times, you know, when the kids are little and they're all screaming and there's so many of them and they're so loud. In this cupboard I have, I can see right now, a gin miniature and a packet of Nicorette chewing gum that a friend sent me when she said, you don't sound like you're coping. I'm going to send this to you. I've never smoked.

She just said it might just take the edge off. So from the happiest place in the world, you're just sat in a cupboard with gin and nicorette even though you don't smoke yeah but it's nice you know it's nice to know it's there if i need it i was gonna say that i think have just by the scandinavians and the swedish having a word for that place you escape to just shows we haven't even got a word for it in england yeah i have it's called the the corner of the spare bedroom behind the washing is where I lie when it's near bedtime to get away from it. But I haven't got a word.

So what's the name of that place that you hide? It's called a small tron stella. It's a symbolic strawberries patch, but yeah. A symbolic strawberry patch. Yeah. Okay. I'll have to call it that from now on. Where do you go and hide, Josh, before you go?

Where do I go and hide? Yeah. Don't tell because then they'll know. I don't know. Where do I go and hide Josh before you go and hide yeah don't tell because then they'll know I don't know where do I go and hide obviously I'll take a lot longer on a piss than I actually need does that count but it would be very bleak to say the toilet that's the worst place to hide in the world the best advice someone gave me is never rush a shit because that is something that you could you've got to stand firm with that take your time time. But what I wish I'd done is I wish in the first years of my relationship

before we'd had children, I'd taken longer in the toilet so that the comparison in times wasn't as stark as it is. Yes, you should have. That's a good tip. Build up the length in the toilet just so it's not a shock when it comes around. That's a long game, isn't it? It is a long game. It's a long game to anyone without children listening that's my happiness tip so i'd say listen to helen rather than listening to me um and so well we say i made book changes at 3 a.m after night feed which is

true but you were writing books which have all the kind of things that could be said to be all encompassing that would be one of the kind of jobs that would be. Do you find you're able to, at 4pm, close the laptop and not work for the rest of the day and do stuff like that? It's really hard, but I haven't had a choice. So I think it's very good for things like, you know, writer's block. I can't afford to have writer's block because I know that by 4pm, my kids will be out on the street.

So I really have to go and pick them up. So yeah yeah I'll sometimes wake up in the middle of the night with a thought oh I wish I'd done this or I should put this in something but it's just not an option so I have had to just work within that parameter I've always thought writers blocks bollocks yeah and I think it's just people that are lazy or not got enough on. My writer's book really cleared up when I was due to be in the pub at 8 o'clock and I needed to get another 100 words or 200, 500 words done. Yeah. I think that's the thing with kids, though, isn't it? You work so much more effectively when you've got kids

because I found that with, like, stand-up where I was like, oh, I've got to actually properly write this stuff for this gig because I've only got this many gigs until I'm doing the tour and it just makes you focus and that's kind of like the Danish thing of just eight or four you will focus are you going on Facebook less are you doing all that kind of extra stuff less during that time yeah I'm trying to and I think Danish in Danish workplaces there is far less of a culture of just spending time on Facebook and just wasting time that way um I try to do that but as with if you're freelance and you're trying to if you make anything and you have to then try and get it out into the world I have to do social media for that and that and I fall down rabbit holes just as much as anyone yeah so that's tricky

but so obviously because you're freelancing at home, do you notice that your husband who goes to a Danish workplace, has he become slightly different to you in different approaches to work? Because he's sort of surrounded by it where you are working on your own most of the time. Oh, I think I'm quite disciplined because I've had to be. And he, when it was proper lockdown, he had to be at home. I think he found it really hard. What are you doing? Should we have a cup of tea no go and do some work um but i think the only real thing and i'm not sure this quite answers your question is that he now speaks with a sort of

a pan-continental accent is that to try and make yourself understood when there is people have all different language backgrounds he speaks very clearly whereas I can still waffle very fast in a very obviously British accent. So he's done the reverse Schmeichel. But a lot of football managers, when they do go and manage abroad, they get the mickey taken out of them when they're getting interviewed in this country because they're sort of, and we play the game and we win in the first half and then losing the second.

It's sort of this weird, they're sort of doing an impression of a Danish person speaking the second language, which is English. So is it sort of a bit more of a deliberate, more European accent he's got now? I think that's right, yeah. It's deliberate, that's the word, yeah. Deliberate, slow and deliberate.

Yeah. Okay, it sounds like one of my reviews. At least you were deliberate. Yeah, he's like sounds like one of my reviews. At least you were deliberate. Yeah, exactly. I meant it. I meant it. No one's ever described you as slow, Rob. Too fast.

Too fast. Too fast. Shut up, mate. I was in the car by 9.30. When I first started doing comedy, I did a gig at a competition. It was so, I did it so,

I used to do, you remember, Josh, I used to be so fast to the point it was actually i did it so i used to do you remember josh i used to be so fast to the point it was actually a style more so than just a speech pattern and my dad after the gig come over to you and you on gear because he thought i'd done coke because i was speaking so fast i was nervous um it's been genuinely i'd say one of the most fascinating conversations we've had and i include jo Joe Swash in that. Thanks, Helen.

It's been, it's amazing. We have got one last question we'd like to ask everyone, which is involved. Is it Lego Man you refer to as your partner? Lego Man. What's the one thing that Lego Man does parenting wise that really frustrates you, but you've not brought it up because it might cause an argument. This is your opportunity to get it off your chest now

in case Lego Man has a listen yeah i think i have brought up many of the things so i'm trying to think i think so he he has a life mantra that he picked up working in a pub in sheffield growing up which he now brings into our home more often than i would relish and he's not very good at resting because his boss in the Sheffield pub used to say, if you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean. And so he basically, if anyone's sort of trying to sit down, if the kids are watching telly and I sit down with them, or if anyone's just not doing something for a minute,

he'll be, you've got time to lean, time to clean. And he wants us doing things. And yeah, that's quite terrifying. It's a bit annoying as well especially you've must have even obviously that i heard that for like probably 10 15 years yeah yeah long time and it's and also you're not gonna you know you're not gonna get a three-year-old to clean they might just say that i'm gonna take that on as my mantra i know that i've i know i've learned the wrong thing from this conversation but i've But genuinely, that is a great rhyming mantra,

and I'm going to stick with it. There must be a better mantra he can pick up at Lego, surely. He's still riding out the pub landlord's one. I know. We'll go with everything is awesome instead, but yeah. Yeah, everything's awesome. Perfect. Ellen, thank you so much.

It's been brilliant. Where can you get the books? Are they paperback now? Still hardback, how to be sad, but the others are all out on paperback um I'm at Miss Helen Russell on the socials and books are wherever you get your books thank you so much for coming on the show thanks so much speak to you take care Helen Russell there the the guardian journalist and author Josh a stiff neck booking by a stiff neck in loose neck clothing. And next week, Rob, I've booked Vicky Patterson. It's a cultural exchange.

Queen of the jungle she was. Was she? Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. And then it was followed up by Scarlet Moffat. It was a double Geordie Lass. Well, I watched the Scarlet Moffat one because that was the Joel one, wasn't it? Oh, yes.

Danny Baker had an argument with the guy from Holmes Under the Hammer. That was my year up. That was the year you watched it, wasn't it? That was the year I watched it. Did you know Vicky Patterson off the top of your head, or have you had that unprepared, that joke, and you've researched an appropriate person? I've got writers in.

I love that, and I'm going to buy helen's books uh now yes they're really really good um and she's uh she's lovely lady and i love copenhagen i always go there and i've taken the kids tell me all about it well there's the tivoli world in the middle of it but it's just very chilled i just like the atmosphere it is actually what she was saying it's just a bit more relaxed and it's not that everyone's happier it's just that there's a lot less to worry about so people are naturally a lot more it's not like oh where are we going to get the money for uni and you know there are private schools but the education system's so good there's not people going oh we've got to send them here or there and stuff like that and then that and it's even more so i imagine in the countryside because

she's in the middle of nowhere yeah than copenhagen but little tip do not go to copenhagen on the 2nd of january because it is in the words of the person in the hotel it shuts everyone leaves and he was he wasn't wrong it was all shut oh rob what a birthday i know 2nd of january the worst birthday ever we took a six month old to copenhagen and then we were like just because it's just so chilled it's pushing around they end up in this bar we had a couple of drinks and then like everyone started coming in and then after about an hour because it's just so chilled, it was pushing around, they end up in this bar, we had a couple of drinks and then everyone started coming in and then after about an hour we didn't realise

we was basically in a nightclub with a six-month-old that was asleep. I just put on the windsuit and head out, didn't you? Oh yeah, just pop the windsuit in, off we go.

But no, she's great, Helen, and definitely buy her books and yeah, and now we know the names for all the Danish pastries. Yes. All right, we need to wrap this up.

Right, speak to you on Tuesday. See you then. Bye. Bye.