Rob Beckett and Josh Widdicombe's Parenting Hell - S05 EP12: Nihal Arthanayake

Episode Date: September 2, 2022

Joining us this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) is the brilliant DJ and presenter - Nihal Arthanayake. Nihal's new book 'Let's Talk: How To Have Better Conversations' is out now. Please rate and review. Thanks, Rob + Josh. BIG NEWS.... we're writing a book!  ⭐ All the stories we can’t tell on the podcast – in depth. ⭐ What it’s like to raise a stiff neck and a loose neck – straight from the horse’s mouth (our parents) ⭐ And.. the BIGGEST REQUEST WE’VE EVER HAD FOR THE PODCAST… Hearing from our wives, Rose & Lou. They’ve got a chapter each and YOU can submit your burning questions to them...   [e-mail] What's it really like to be a parent? And how come no one ever warned Rob or Josh of the sheer mind-bending, world-altering, sleep-depriving, sick-covering, tear-inducing, snot-wiping, bore-inspiring, 4am-relationship-straining brutality of it all? And if they did, why can't they remember it (or remember anything else, for that matter)? And just when they thought it couldn't get any harder, why didn't anyone warn them about the slices of unmatched euphoric joy and pride that occasionally come piercing through, drenching you in unbridled happiness in much the same way a badly burped baby drenches you in milk-sick? Join Josh and Rob as they share the challenges and madness of their parenting journeys with lashings of empathy and extra helpings of laughs. Filled with all the things they never tell you at antenatal classes, Parenting Hell is a beguiling mixture of humour, rumination and conversation for prospective parents, new parents, old parents and never-to-be parents alike. Find out everything you need to know, including how you could win a pair of tickets to the Parenting Hell LIVE tour & an overnight stay in London here:  https://www.bit.ly/ParentingHellBook We're going on tour!! Fancy seeing the podcast live in some of the best venues in the UK? Of course you do, you're not made of stone! Tickets available now on the dates and at the venues below. We can't wait to see you there... ON SALE NOW  14th April 2023 - Manchester AO Arena 19th April 2023 - Nottingham 20th April 2023 - Cardiff  21st April 2023 - London (The O2) 23rd April 2023 - London (Wembley) 28th April 2023 - Birmingham Utilita Arena  If you want to get in touch with the show here's how: EMAIL: [e-mail] TWITTER: @parenting_hell INSTAGRAM: @parentinghell A 'Keep It Light Media' Production  Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Rob Beckett. And I'm Josh Willicombe. Welcome to Parenting Hell, the show in which Josh and I discuss what it's really like to be a parent, which I would say can be a little tricky. So, to make ourselves, and hopefully you, feel better about the trials and tribulations of modern-day parenting, each week we'll be chatting to a famous parent about how they're coping. Or, hopefully, how they're not coping. And we'll also be hearing from you, the listener, with your tips, advice, and, of course, tales of parenting woe.

Because, let's be honest, there are plenty of times when none of us know what we're doing. And if you're just joining us, we're live from Evan's living room. It looks like Evan is about to purchase tickets to today's match. Kate, the real test is, will he use the BMO Toronto FC cashback MasterCard? Well, if he wants to earn cashback on his purchases, he will. Oh, hang on. He's at the computer with his card and he's done it. Oh, clicky clickclick, magic trick!

The click heard around the room. You guys just about finished. Sorry, we got excited. Thanks for snagging those tickets. Make every purchase highlight-worthy with the BMO Toronto FC Cashback MasterCard. Introducing Tim's new Savory Pinwheels. The perfect flaky and flavorful snack for those on the go. Like me, who's recording this while snacking.

Ooh, delicious. Try the roasted red pepper and Swiss or caramelized onion and Parmesan pinwheels only at Tim's. At participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. Hello, you're listening to Parenting Hell with... Hi, can you say Josh Widdicombe? Josh Widdicombe. Can you say Rob Beckett? Rob Beckett.

Very good. Oh, solid. That was great. Really, yeah, really good. Knockedett. Very good. Oh, solid. That was great. Really, yeah, really good. Knocked it out of the park. Love the podcast. Here's my two-year-old Maya saying her names. I'm from...

Harrow. Oh, my God. No. Harrogate. Oh! When you started saying that, I just thought, I can't believe this is happening.

Oh, God. I nearly got hard then. Yeah, that was incredible. She was born in York. Mum's from East Yorkshire, but not from Hull. Me and my bezzy also... They haven't got a Yorkshire accent, have they? No.

Some would argue York's not really Yorkshire. Yeah. Me and my bezzy, also an obsessive listener, saw you in York back before COVID nonsense. Do you know what? I sell really well in York. I love York. I'm always gigging up there.

I think it's because when I first started, I did all the little places in Yorkshire. And I think if you smash it or do a good gig there, they'll put the effort in to come and see you elsewhere. Yorkshire's a good place to gig. We also do a podcast about beer, but children has to put pay to that for now. He made me do this as he thinks my daughter

is hilarious great work on the podcast keep it real and sexy dan granger there we go cheers grange cheers granger big dog big dg now rob have we got anything uh quickly before our guests which is we both agreed on our favorite episode isn't it oh it's a great episode this one um we're funny and also really interested and talks about some serious things, but in a fun way. But before that, I've got a couple of things. One, I was working Sunday.

I do Radio 2, 5 till 7. It'd be great if you could listen, guys, and maybe message in. Because I'd say I'm still winning over the fan base. That's always the case with radio, Rob. That's always the case with radio, Rob. That's always the case with the radio. Give Ellis a ring and talk to him about him and John Robin's first appearance on Radio 5 Live.

Yeah, when you work for the BBC, there's always a little bit of a settling in period. So it'd be quite nice if you'd listen, guys, or listen on BBC Sounds. You can hear the show. So they can clock the numbers. Yeah, exactly. Do you know how radio ratings are done? People just tick a tick a book at home anyway that's neither here nor there well if you've got the

book ticket if not even if you don't listen can everyone just listen to just have it on the background my show sundays five till seven and that would really help me out thanks guys anyway i was at work doing that i was doing my radio show and I left the house about two o'clock. Lou left at one o'clock. She took both girls around the corner to the neighbours, who are also parents at the school, to have a little barbecue. They were having a little bank holiday barbecue. All the kids from school were there.

They got a big bouncy castle and they were just playing in the garden. And I thought, you know, we've got a busy Monday, so I thought Lou might be back, you know, after a few hours or so. Anyway, I'm on my way home from the radio show at 7pm. Lou's still not home. Lou gets in at 8pm. She's been there for seven hours, comes back drunk. Love it.

Love it. Got drunk. Not battered. She knows what she's doing. She's in full control of the kids. She walked back. It was not a drive, around the corner. But very merry.

Yeah. And I found out she was playing gin face with the mums and dads from school. Gin face? What's gin face? Gin face is where you get ten shots of gin. No, sorry, five shots of gin, five shots of water. You all stand in a circle. You take turns because it's obviously clear.

Yeah. And you drink one and people have to guess what you're drinking oh that's fun isn't it so you can either have a straight face or that's disgusting bluff them double bluff them and they've got to work out if it's gin or water and anyway she came home drunk and then she was in pure what did i do did i say anything embarrassing for the people at school it was great and it but she did tell me the same story three times you know when someone's drunk oh yeah and then so and so I'm like you've told me already stop telling me but it was quite funny to see her come back a bit merry

uh but yeah that was quite funny and also before we introduce our guests I've got some really good correspondence if you want to hit me up hit me up so things you've won as a kid do you like we like this one don't we yeah love it things it. Things You've Won As A Kid. Hi, Rob, Josh and Michael. As a kid around six, we went on a family holiday to Butlins. My parents were off to see Call and the Gang in the evening, so they took us to the kids' show beforehand. The kids' show was, in fact, Blind Date For Kids.

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. This being the 90s, everyone was then obsessed with the show, so I volunteered to be the person that reads out the NAF questions. My logic in taking the question role is that I knew I'll get a date. Guaranteed. Bang on date. Not bad for a six-year-old, is it?

Good thinking. I remember sitting one side of a curtain asking something lame like, what's their favourite meal? At the end, I picked someone and we went on a date. We sat on our own in the bar area and the prize was, in fact, a carton of Ribena and some crisps. The boy didn't say a word to me the whole time and could barely look at me in the eye.

Oh, my God. As an introduction to the world of modern dating, I suppose it was pretty accurate, although on reflection, it's quite odd for a kids' show, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is weird, that. That's not okay i don't think they did do kids specials on that did they like you know they'd occasionally do like kids specials of tv shows i don't think they aired it even if they did no i think that i'm not sure what's going on behind this thing problematic that but yeah that's poor tessa from

east london that went on a date at six that is weird that butler's that is um this is a good one here uh when i was younger i entered a phone competition for the game show to me to you the chuckle brothers yeah and the question was which band had five members five bewitched or some other band i can't remember yeah i felt very confident it was five i entered my mum told us we've got to go out for shopping, and we went out. On returning, there was an answer phone message, which my mum played. The theme tune of Chuckle Vision played out, and then cut to someone saying, I had won the competition.

No way. But as I didn't pick up, the prize went to the runner-up, so I didn't win. Oh, no. My mum was mad as she never okayed the phone call. What? And it said it served me right for not asking a bill payer's permission. Oh, the bill payer. And I was grounded.

No. I refuse to ever watch anything with those two brothers in again. It's not that far. Why would they leave a message? I don't remember to me to you being a lie. Yeah, but you can't leave a message and go, oh, unlucky, you didn't win. Just hang up. Yeah.

Jane from Southend, still not over that 25 years old my words that is heartbreaking but exactly my kind of anecdote this this is one boomer one i want to finish on which is great and then we'll do anyhow boomer and grandparenting story hiya love the poddy my granddad lives in the highlands of scotland and my brother and i used to spend a couple of weeks holiday there a year He would sometimes take us to the one screen cinema That would show one film on repeat for a week To avoid the crowds He would take us to see the end of the film And then wait until it started

And watch up until What? What? So he'd watch for the last 10 minutes first and then watch up until they caught up

for when they went in so they could leave and arrive without crowds and easy parking that is absolutely incredible that's Francis Rose

can't get enough of that that is mental that is really good that is insane right now it's time for Nihal Arthanaike

the really good interview. He's a 5 Live presenter. He has written books. He was based in London for years on Radio 1, then moved his whole family up to Manchester to be on 5 Live, which he talks about, and the challenges of that. Also a really funny interview, but also really interesting on if you are, you know, moving house or you have got kids in new schools

that aren't enjoying it it's quite an interesting listen but it's really funny as well but it's a great one you enjoyed this didn't you josh loved it absolutely loved it yeah i was delighted one of those ones where we did far too much because we just kept talking but don't worry michael will have had out the chaff but what i mean is like the time just flew by minimal chaff i'd say because i'll be honest i'm not going to name names, but there has been ones where I've been looking at that clock ticking, thinking, when are we going to hit 45 here?

Oh, but also thinking it's an absolute chaff monster. We might have to go to 50 minutes here just to replace chaff with chat. I tell you what, there's going to be a few emails read out before this one. A fair few emails. And that was Insert Name Here with this seven minute interview about their children which I think

they don't have a relationship with. See you next week. This is the opposite. This is Nihao Afanaka. Enjoy it. Nihao, welcome to the show.

How are you? Oh, I'm really happy to be on this. I'm not going to lie. This is amazing. It's amazing. We're very happy

to have you here. Yeah. I think we're coming on your show as well. Yes'm not going to lie. This is amazing. It's amazing. We're very happy to have you here. Yeah. I think we're coming on your show as well. Yeah, of course you are. Of course you are. Although, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. For BBC reasons, this has not happened because you're coming on my show.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is not a quick pro quo. No, no, no. Of course not. Of course not. Because you've both independently been on my show before anyway. Yes. Talking about, I was talking about my last book, and I think we're going to come on to talk about the new book it's an absolute

book and you've got a book out it's a book frenzy you've also got children um can you give us a rundown of your child situation uh the child situation is i have a 13 year old girl and a 14 year old boy uh kingsley is my son uh who is 14 he'll be 15 in November and Aria is my daughter and they loathe each other at the moment so it's a proper like it is carnage, like it is absolute

carnage, it's like one of them is mainland China and the other one's Taiwan and it's always tense the tension is always there so how long has this been is this a new development no it's just it's just they're very close in age there's only 19 months between them and there's just this oh it's friction you're always trying to it's exhausting refereeing it yeah like you're constantly kind of

trying to go no just be kind to each other no don't do that no don't say that don't trigger that don't escalate that it's a constant kind of like this and um like working for donald trump yeah it's kind of like you're always trying to go go, no, please don't say that. Don't do that. Don't trigger that. Don't escalate that. Don't react to that. What are the main beefs then between them? What's the main issue?

It's just the sibling. My brother and I had a little bit of it when we were growing up. It's just the kind of, they're very different personalities. They definitely love each other. I know there's a lot of love there but they just can't coexist at the moment particularly well. Like Gerrard and Lampard you know they're good they just didn't link up

There you go, there you go, absolutely absolutely What you're saying is you need to swap one of your children for Gareth Barry Well we can take it beyond football, it's like Alonso and Hamilton I think as as well. There's carnage.

There's definitely beef there. It's Biggie and Tupac, except no drive-bys, which is good, because neither of them have driving licences. Are you Shug Knight in this situation? I kind of am Shug Knight. Yeah, you're right. So how did you feel when you found out that your partner was pregnant with the second?

Because that turnaround, you would have had a nine month old? Yeah. Well, for me, it was kind of OK, right? Because I don't have to do much. First six months of being a parent, I was a terrible dad. Like I was a radio on DJ. I was off DJing. I was like, and my wife turned to me i kind of

became my dad's generation which was that i go out of work yeah i'll enjoy the nice stuff by cuddling a baby and putting photos on social media and uh and not and not really be kind of present as they say i mean my wife i remember six months in turned around and said right okay well if i'm gonna have to do this on my own i might as well do it properly on my own and you can do one and i was like and i was like yeah like like literally gave me that kind of ultimatum because i just i just effortlessly slipped into this kind of really archaic role of being a which really kind of freaked me out because that's not the guy I thought I was. No, I wouldn't have expected that from you.

No, and that's not who I thought I was going to be. And then just, I guess, I don't know, the cultural nature of how I grew up just became that. And then suddenly I was like, well, okay, that's not cool. That's not who I need to be. That's not who I should be. And I, yeah, it's kind of, well, okay, that's not cool. That's not who I need to be. That's not who I should be. And I, yeah, it's kind of, well, I don't know if my wife would agree

that I flipped it around in my own head. You did enough. You did enough to save the marriage. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, 17 years later, yeah. Our 17th anniversary was last week. Save it slash keep it going. It's a very fine line, isn't it?

That's kind of what, yeah. Results speak for themselves. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Numbers don't lie. Was your parents, so with your parents, were they a bit quite sort of old school with the mum did all the baby stuff and then the dad just worked? Yeah, I don't think my dad was present when we were born.

Really? Yeah, I don't think he was there. I think part of the reason was that my mum said that he fainted at the sight of blood. So she thought it would be best that he just didn't. So the nurses kind of attended to her, not to him. So it was a better... But also, again, it was a generation that didn't,

don't think, you know, change nappies or got that involved, really. You know, my dad worked away a lot as well so um i don't think yeah i think there's very clear roles i mean my mum did work she was a nurse in the nhs she worked part-time but it was very much a given that my dad was the breadwinner my dad paid the mortgage my dad paid for everything and my my mum money that she had was stuff that she could just use as she wanted but the the primary breadwinner was my dad. And that's how we were brought up. And also as well, you know, it's my brother and I.

So there's three guys in the house. So you're in that kind of environment as well. You know, so yeah, it was weird. Here come the carrots making their way upfield, followed by the whole wheat bread over to the two dozen eggs. Sir, do you do this every time? Sorry, I've been a little excited ever since i got this bmo toronto fc cashback mastercard oh and the broccoli boots it over the line what a goal how would you like to pay sir credit please make every purchase a win

with the bmo toronto fc cashback mastercard with up to five percent cash back on your purchases in your first three months. Terms and conditions apply. Do you think one of the differences, not just generationally, but also your job was DJing on Radio 1. So it doesn't even feel to the person who's stuck at home like you're going out to work. It feels like you're going out to play records and have a laugh. Yeah, I'm sorry but womad in singapore that fly alone is is a is a grind quite frankly right okay off going off to do glastonbury these

things are hard work yeah i'm not i'm not sure i appreciate the tone, Josh, if I'm honest. But also, as well, when you have to present that show, you can't go, oh, this has been a bit boring, actually, at Glastonbury, because it's on Radio 1. You're like, it was the best one ever! These guys are amazing! You're like, I'm having the time of my life! And your wife's at home. Well, that's the thing, isn't it?

You're doing a DJ gig in Thailand, and you're kind of thinking wow this is amazing but there's two ways of selling it isn't there there's the way you speak to your wife about it which is like oh so boring the crowd went into it it was rubbish and then of course you come back and you get on radio one knowing that your wife's not listening and going big weekend dude bangkok get the supper club big tunes were being played. Big shows. You know, two-hour set, absolutely the most banging set of my life.

It was amazing. The queue went round the block, and then when we dropped this track, the whole place kicked off. It was a mad one. And then come home and go, yeah, God, worst gig ever. Terrible. Also, as well, Radio 1, you can't really be like, I'm a bit tired. I was up with a baby last night because it's all radio one you can't really be like i'm a bit

sad i was like the baby last night because it's so youth centric that station as soon as there's a whiff of you've got a kid you're en route to radio two or five live you're not there longer that's why scott mills he's got no kids that's why he lasted so long he's about 57 good on him what an innings he had a radio one yeah there was there was that though the thing was always when i was at radio one the audience was skewed much older that remember the chris moyle's years it was all young parents like the idea that under chris moyle's it was loads of teenagers going this is the greatest thing in the world it wasn't it was loads of blokes in their 30s pretty much wasn't it like being super geezery and so when i was doing my specialist show on radio one of course that was just two hours of

of me mixing live and and playing tracks back to back largely but when i was doing weekend breakfast and then weekend afternoon which are daytime shows then you are trying to kind of you can say that you've got babies so i had babies around the right time because a lot of the listeners were also doing that they were also having and also having kids i had kids late so i um you know i became a dad in my mid-30s whereas so so all the people who are having kids in their mid-20s yeah yeah you a you were identifying with them and b that was a kind of core Radio 1 audience. Are you nearly 50? I'm 51.

You look unbelievable. No way! This is outrageous. What's the secret? Not looking after your kids? Is that the answer? No, it's eating copious amounts of mango chutney. Mango chutney.

Which Rob in his book said is a jam. Yeah, I've got a bit of a... It's not a jam. It is a chutney. No, I've not a jam. It is a chutney. No, I've got a bit of a thing with chutney. It's just a posh word for jam that means you can have it with your dinner. It is just jam. But like, you can have it with your roast dinner, a bit of strawberry jam.

But like, you can have a bit of mango chutney on a curry. But that's fine. But no. No, let's not get bogged down with this. We're getting on well anyhow. We had this argument on your show last time. We did, we did. Well, let me ask you.

Do you know what? I just want one more Radio 1 question. Because I was thinking about this the other day with Scott Mills. I always think it's a really difficult transition. When you're on Radio 1, the transition away from Radio 1 is a really tough kind of thing to negotiate well. When you're on Radio 1 one are you thinking i need an exit plan here because i am get i'm getting older and is everyone on radio one thing what am

i going to do in five years here is it yeah is it what is it always like gangsters that have earned a bit of money i need a way out how can you go straight how can you start earning it clean that's exactly what happened that's literally what happened in 2012 i took on a new agent and i said the only thing you have to do is plan an exit strategy from radio one because that's exactly what it is i would say i just i'd amassed all the cash i don't i said right clean this up for me it was essentially laundering my my profession like that through various fronts like that um so yeah that's exactly what I said to him because I saw that and and I felt sorry for Radio One DJs especially those who are in specialist music because they never really see it coming and I remember the day I was told it was over it was with two other DJs, and they were genuinely shocked,

whereas I was just like, brilliant. I mean, I've seen this coming for years. I've planned it. Like I know exactly. And various stages of my career, even before I got to radio, that was always how I saw things. I looked kind of 10 years in advance and thought, right, do I want to be that person doing that job when I'm that age and saying no and then trying to work out how I get out of that so

when I was working in PR in the music industry it was the same thing and then when I got to Radio 1 it was the same thing and then to a certain extent you know writing the book is a kind of way of of giving me a post-broadcasting life which involves involves much more writing which i can do from wherever i want to in the world and not having to rely on being on a recording studio or radio studio like five four days a week it's a bit like that with stand-up really it's like you can only when you break through you are who you are at that time so when you know when i was like when i first started doing stand-up, I was just an absolute idiot moron that was so overexcited to be doing stand-up and knew nothing about the world at all.

And a lot of my jokes were about that. I'm going, this happened, you know, finding out how to pronounce quinoa or quinoa and all these things that at the time were true. But, like, I've learned now. I'm 10, 15 years older, so I know more about the world. So I can't keep going out and going, bloody hell, guys, have you seen seen and then everyone's just sat there going we know you know now you need to call me mate if you don't know you need help we don't need another stand-up set so it's like readjusting who you are for the audience well that's a massive problem for rappers like when

rappers start off going on about the hood and then suddenly you're jay-z right like what does jay-z know about the hood anymore right so to be fair to jay-z right what does jay-z know about the hood anymore right so to be fair to jay-z he starts rapping about basket painting he owns and things like that yeah but some rappers when there's a rapper called pusher t and he's still going on about like he i think he runs kanye west's label and he's really rich right and he just keeps going on about being a drug dealer you cannot keep going on about this stuff it's kind of weird i want to talk to you about your book anyhow because it's called let's talk how to have better conversations and what i want to get to is right you know what you're doing you do your five live show where all you do is talk to people all day you can't hide behind songs it's just constantly

talking and you can you can do small talk like waffle for a bit but really that starts to wear thin so you need to know how to get into proper conversations and this book's all about that and but what i want to know is can you talk to your teenagers because that's the problem all our listeners have they go oh it's hard now physically with your little ones but it gets worse okay so how do you can you talk to them you said they're arguing at the moment how do you talk to them and how do you get them to talk to each other without ripping each other's heads off well the latter is proven to be very very challenging indeed the former actually is pretty chill i mean my son and i had a conversation the other day because you know they're at that age now where you've got to really start thinking about about what they're watching

online what they're sharing and you, all of those kinds of things. Look, they don't necessarily want to sit there and have a conversation with you about pornography, right? It's a weird conversation to have with your dad, right? So what's your end goal? Is that to basically go, basically, don't watch too much porn, mate. It's not a good idea. Because you have to work out what you're trying to get to

before you have the conversation. Well, what you can't do is be naive enough to think that they're never going to see it, right? So I was describing to him just a few days ago, in fact, hedge porn, right? Like finding porn mags in hedges in the 80s and the 90s, right? That's where, and he was looking at me like what are you talking about it's like well because it wasn't just available like it is now but then also you have to talk to

him about and my understanding of it is you have to kind of say it's about the distortion of it it's acting right yeah it's not something that you should be sharing at all. Also, as well, you have to have this conversation about not sending nudes or encouraging girls to send nudes to you. Don't do any of that. Respect also as well. Respect and consent. Like you have to just have the conversation, but also as well. It's just getting the tone right. So did you just go into his room or whatever and sit down and go here's something for you the click the click so that's how do you get into that combo because i'm getting the vibe i'm on i'm on the vibe got the chair out sat the wrong way around on it backwards cap so it was the classic way that all men communicate with each other which is side by side right it's

not face to face right so it's you know know, watching sport or, you know, in the pub, we kind of watched it. It was actually we were driving along the Turbos, right? So that way you're not looking at each other in the face. You're kind of having a conversation with each other. And you just bring it up, right? So you were already driving. This wasn't the porno chat drive.

It wasn't just a journey for the porno chat. It was we're driving anyway just a couple of guys in the car what's your first sentence what's the first question what's the first thing you say when you talk to about your teenage son about wanking the hell do you know what you say it's it's just about um i think i asked so you ask about not him, but his mates, right? So you kind of make it about, so do you know your guys like sharing pornography? Is it being shared widely on your phones, on Snapchat, for instance? And then you just get into it like that.

Look, the thing is, the more you prevaricate, the more you go, it just becomes more and more awkward. So you might as well just do it almost like you're going to have a conversation about the football, right? So it just becomes, it more awkward. So you might as well just do it almost like you're going to have a conversation about the football, right? So it just becomes, it's not a thing. Like if you make it a massive thing, it will then become one. I think it is a thing.

It's a massive thing, right? But you don't make it that. So, for instance, the other day he was talking about his pals vaping. Now, rather than me going, I hope you didn't do that. Right. I just went, oh, did you try that? Did you try it? Like innocuously, right?

Yeah. At which point he just turned around and went, like, I was an idiot. He went, why would I do that? It looks ridiculous when they're doing it, right? Which made me just go, oh. So what you're trying not to do is promote a defensive attitude right you're not trying to put anyone on the back foot but do you think he would have said yes if he had do you know what it's always difficult to not sound naive if you

go yes yeah everyone listening to parenting hills going yeah sure yeah absolutely have a cheek a little bomb yeah exactly right sure he hasn't the whole you're a nice one yeah yeah well done mate called captain best parent well done i know but the but the i guess the point is is that you can't beat yourself up about it right what you've got to know is is that all of us three here as teenagers lied to our parents, right? So that's just part of being a teenager, right? That doesn't mean that they don't like you or they don't trust you, but it's just kind of important to have some secrets when you're a teenager, right? Yeah.

The key to it, I think, is not creating an environment where you're pushing them towards rebellion. Yeah. By making rebellion actually just a part of growing up, it kind of takes the need for them to take it to the nth degree, I think. When I was growing up, it was always a quite strict pair. It was either the really strict parents or the parents that didn't give a shit at all.

Yes. The ones that were sort of, I'm going out tonight, see you later. And kids went off and did stuff because they were bored because their mum or dad was down the pub or whatever. Or the other ones going, you can't go out tonight. And it sort of, I'm going out tonight, see you later. And kids went off and did stuff because they were bored because their mum or dad was down the pub or whatever. Or the other ones go, you can't go out tonight. And it sort of made it a challenge. So I think finding somewhere in the middle. You know, my wife and I are a totally different generation

to our parents because we've experienced things and we've partied and we've done things that my parents, they just weren't from that generation. Like I grew up in the rave generation. They weren't sri lankan rave generation in the 1960s right like the prodigy weren't playing in colombo when uh when they were teenagers so we've got that kind of context to be able to say look there's going to come a point where drugs are going to be around you right just make you know make the right decisions come and talk to us about it right yeah what can you do right you can't really do anything

i'm not about i'm not about putting a microchip in the back of their neck or indeed chaperoning them everywhere they go because that would be weird i already look like an undercover police officer when i go to a raven as it is let alone let alone accompanying my own children do you feel like you're a cool dad in that sense like that must be quite an exciting thing for them right or do you worry about being too down with the kids you know what it's it's it's a weird one there sorry whenever josh asks these questions i just imagine him with his teenage son, like, trying to take him to the gig and not know what to do. Yeah. So we went to see Example, the rapper, right, playing in Manchester.

And the kids did come into the dressing room, right, and were in the dressing room for about an hour and a half, just chatting to everyone in the dressing room, right? And it's not normal, right, for a 13- and a 14-year-old to kind of be in that environment and just hanging out. But it's fairly normal, right? For like a 13 and a 14 year old to kind of be in that environment and just hanging out, but they're just, it's fairly normal for them. So I think that what's interesting is there's a lot of Asian kids, certainly in my son's school and their parents used to listen to me on the Asian network. So their parents think I'm cool. So then the kids think I'm cool because their parents know who I am yeah so there

is so so we've had this conversation uh weirdly and um uh but because just because I was like one of the other dads saying that his son wants nothing to do with him right like it's just like go away you're embarrassing and actually my kids aren't like that they want to spend time with us and i was like well why is that and it's like well because you know my mates don't think you're an idiot right like they don't they think you're actually quite cool like because you've got still collect trainers and yeah so it's interesting like you could have a conversation with one of his mates about stock x and about virgin ablo air force one so they're kind of looking at you like because they can't with their own dad yeah of course yeah i think the key thing with that is about StockX and about Virgil Abloh Air Force One. So they're kind of looking at you like,

because they can't with their own dad. Yeah, of course. But I think the key thing with that is, though, is that you do that anyway because that's who you are and you like your trainers. And you sort of get on with that quite quietly. You're not like pulling up at the school gate going, hey, guys, check out my new dunks. That's the line.

Even though what you've got is cool and what they want. 100%. It's just you've got to allow them to see it as opposed to be like 100 i don't know if you're into this but i am actually i'm pretty a pretty cool guy but there is there is a there is a real love especially when i'm hanging around with romesh like young asian families come up to him and the parents love him the kids love him and i think it's because they're seeing what you know they're being seen on screen and he's talking about things he's going on in his

life but there is that there is a real love for romesh that's different to when anyone comes up to like me or josh or something like that especially from sri lankan families they're properly properly into it yeah you know well i think as well because you know a lot of sri lankans were displaced because of the civil war it's almost like oh you're here how's it going because so much horrible stuff's happened it's sort of not to see someone who's doing well that's like, oh, you're here. How's it going? Because so much horrible stuff's happened. It's sort of not to see someone who's doing well. That's like you. It's a really nice thing, you know? Yeah, no, it's interesting. But also as well, because of the Asian Network show that I did for quite a few years and it was a phone in show and it was a very controversial phone in show. So it goes across Pakistani community, Indian community, Sri Lankan community. So that's it's quite a broad fan base for that show that

I did uh over the years so yeah and you're absolutely right about the not pulling up in the supreme air force ones and kind of going yeah look at these boys yeah look that's a bit noncy in it that's like that's the hipster equivalent of sweets isn't it a bag of sweets right the new new age nonce yeah it's much more expensive being a nonce these days isn't it? A bag of sweets. The new age nonce. It's much more expensive being a nonce these days, isn't it? You used to be sweets and now you've got to spend £100 on some trainers. You see my foot team on FIFA. Have you seen who I've just unpacked?

Just unpacked Messi, team of the week. So I don't know if you've got that. How old were your kids when you moved? You had to move from London to Manchester, didn't you? Did you all move as a family? How old were they? Yeah, yeah. So that was six years ago.

So they were seven and eight when that happened. Was that a big decision? Yeah. Did you feel guilty as well? Because it was like your decision, your job kind of thing. It was horrific. I mean, we moved them to a new school where they were both bullied and we had to take them out of the schools which added layers of layers to the guilt my wife was isolated and lonely and the school mums at this new school would apart from one i can remember were pretty

vile to her so it was and uh and i was and i was just going off to my new exciting job, everyone. Oh, God. You guys crack on. You guys crack on. You know, it's building resilience, guys. Resilience is important. This is all my fault. Your brain must be like that. This is all my fault. Wife's unhappy, kids are unhappy.

All the time. Like, it was horrific. I remember not long after we'd moved up, we had to, for some reason, drive back to London and we went to my brother's house in in Purley. And we were driving back and we had to drive close to where we lived. Right. like what seven at the time started screaming take us home as we she's as she began to recognize the roads near where we used to live she's going why do we have to go back take me home i don't want to go take me home and was crying and screaming in the back of the house the most like today it burns viscerally in my subconscious and my conscious that it was the most horrific thing. And do you know what?

And then the bullying happened. And I remember my son getting into the A team at the football team, which was at the expense of one of their boys. And he was the new kid. So they all rounded on him. And he came out as an eight-year-old and burst into tears because they'd been horrific to him. And I said I'm moving back every day, but every single day, every single day.

It was, you know, the North South divide thing is really, really interesting. I think part of the reason they were bullied is because of how they sounded, because of their accents. because of their accents. It also didn't help that it was a largely non-Asian school where they'd been used to in London very mixed schools as primary school. That didn't help. I remember going in and saying, why is this group of girls bullying my daughter,

a girl of Chinese descent and a girl of Moroccan descent, and all the other girls are not of,'re all white English why do you think this is happening and then the deputy head saying oh yeah no no no it can't be what I think you're saying because one of the girls is Italian and I was like mate are you joking like are you joking are you serious did you just say that to me? So it was clear that there was a problem. And then it was also clear that the school wasn't willing to see that there was a problem. Yeah. Right. In the way that I was seeing it. And so we had to take them out and we ended up putting them in two separate schools, an all boys school and all girls school.

And the all girls school is really has been kind of at one point challenging for her. But also she's managed to find a tribe there. And the all boys school has been the making of my son. Like it's been the making of him. There's no question of it. So now they're really, one of the main reasons we don't constantly talk about going back to London is because the schools are so good.

The schools in Manchester are fantastic. How long were they in that school for four and then you moved them oh um it was probably a couple of years yeah well you can't do it straight away can you because no we had to move her we had to move her from one primary school to another one um and then she stayed in that for a little while and then um him we got him into the final year of the of the junior school but the school goes all the way through to 18 so so we got him into that which is you know which is amazing and has been the making of him but it's quite interesting it's quite it's quite interesting

you know they're still they they still talk absolutely like this is going to be really bad but they're southerners still right 100% and I remember once he came home my son and he said oh we've got to be at school dead early which a very northern thing right dead early and I went no you don't you either have to be there early or late there's no dead in that sentence but like I squashed it like immediately i just went no yeah no there's no dead early though they still say grass and bath and all of those kinds of things it's none of that bath or grass or any of that kind of stuff oh that must have been such a relief for you that when they became more settled i mean obviously i imagine that was a gradual thing not an immediate

oh i love it now kind of because yeah i've dropped my daughter off at school before where she's not wanting to go and it's been really out of character off at school before where she's not wanting to go. And it's been really out of character because she loves it and she's really happy at the school. But even though I knew she loves it when she got in there and she just was a bit tired as having a funny turn, I felt horrific. So I can't imagine how difficult it is for you or anyone listening that's got a child that's not really enjoying it at the school. Well, my wife was picking up my daughter every day and my daughter was

bursting into tears every day and my daughter was bursting into tears every day she spent every lunch time alone every break time alone um and it was just a triumph of a day if she didn't come out crying you know and the trauma that that places on children because the thing is we kind of fool ourselves by going kids are resilient right, right? But then what we do is we speak to adults, and I've interviewed plenty of adults who were bullied at school, and they remember every minute of it. Yeah. Right?

They really do. And you think, okay, they'll kind of cope and they'll get through it and, you know, it prepares you for life. But, you know, the pop singer Anne-Marie, she had a horrific time at school and it affected her confidence all the way through. Like, even to this day, it affects her confidence. She's still kind of traumatised by what happened when she was bullied at school.

So, you know, you just try and protect them as much as you can. I mean, my daughter, she plays the drums. She's doing kickboxing. She got... This is mad. She got a role when she was 12. So beginning this year, she got a role when she was 12 so beginning this year she got she got a part in an apple tv drama and they flew her out to la to film for two weeks so she's done she's done an acting job oh that'll give her loads of confidence those kind of things it would but she came back to school and obviously she just got loads of hate for it oh the jealousy of it yeah

because that like every 12 year old girl wants to get flow business class to la to go and act in an in a drama right to be an actor because they think suddenly you're a celebrity so she actually ended up getting quite a lot of hate for it and you know we were trying to say to her look and that's a really sad thing as well just saying to like look just keep it keep it low like don't talk about it don't don't say anything but she's 12 and she's like proud of herself and so she should be it's a huge achievement to audition for something and get the part yeah get and so you're kind of having to deal with that and you know that it doesn't get the challenges of parenting teenagers are that they are beginning to be more emotionally sophisticated so it's then

then you get into the worries about what the darker aspects of being a teenager can be and you hear about self-harming or you hear about you know issues around bulimia and things like that for both boys and girls and you worry you know you kind of trying to give them confidence and love and support and hopefully that will be enough to divert them away from the darker aspects of being a teenager and you know look i think we can all agree that being a teenager can be really horrific right i hated it yeah right you know it wasn't i i blossomed and nailed it actually it's your adult life it's gonna be one or the other josh it's gonna be one or the other it was like ac slater at school

oh dear um and then how about did your wife settle in as well then that must have been hard for her because if she lost her support network and then she's waiting for her daughter to come out from school upset every day, it's like, it must have been tough. And, you know, your show's on the afternoon, isn't it? Is that right? Yeah. So it's like every day, at school pick-up, you're working. So it's fell on her every day to do it, really.

Absolutely. That's absolutely what happened. And, you know, I think she has finally found just a very few amount of people it was just us struggling to find a social life that was the thing it must be mad moving somewhere new and then you've got this situation where you're just like it's almost like when you see another parent right you're like is this the one is this like speed that like it's like yes is there's there's almost too much pressure on conversations with people right and yeah i need friends yes that was the thing and i i kind of selfishly was i've got my pals and kind of men we need to see each other less like we

don't need to be there constant that constant constant companionship as it were. But then also as well, you know, my wife devoted, well, she's only just really in the last year or so gone back to kind of part time work. So she devoted well over a decade just to making sure that the kids were good. Yeah. But in that time, it was really hard. Yeah. But in that time, it was really hard. Look, because when you move and you're in your 40s, as I as I was, she was in her 30s. People have got their own social groups, right? Yeah. Right. So they may they may like you, but they've still got friends that they've had for 25 years. Yeah. I don't have any new friends. Right. Right. Right. So look at you with your Drake lyrics, no new friends.

I'm quite keen on dropping a few out and refreshing them. I've got a very much revolving door policy. You're like Alex Ferguson. You don't want anyone to get comfortable. Is it random? Sort of random, sort of about what suits the kids, who Lou's been talking to, who I can be bothered to text. Sometimes it's no one, so they're there, all right,

I'll have a chat with them. But I think it's good,'s been talking to. Who I can be bothered to text. Sometimes it's no one. So they're there, all right. I'll have a chat with them. But I think it's good, freshen it up. But it is hard, you know, because especially I think the main way you find friends is at work or with the school parents if you are a parent. And I think with work, people have been working from home. Also your job, you're sort of a lone wolf, really. You sort of have producers and stuff, but sometimes you're a lot younger and not doing the same things you are with a teenage son and daughter daughter so it's like you haven't got like a big team at work

and then if your wife's not working and then you're not getting on with the school and you're not going to start going for drinks with the parents of the kids that are being horrible to your kids it does someone quite a small area let's start like going paintball or something just to find you know start a new hobby i was incredibly proud of my wife actually when she did turn around to a school mum who was trying to kind of still make connection with us after we'd taken our daughter out of the school and my wife who was feeling particularly um i don't know abrasive that day maybe just said to this woman i remember it she just said look the only reason we hung out was because our daughters were friends.

And then your daughter was horrible to my daughter. So I see no reason for us to hang out anymore. Love it. She just said it. Yes, please. Blatantly. Blatantly, she said it to her. And the thing was, it was all a bit weird, the whole thing. And also, of course, you've got to be kind of mindful. Why is it that someone wants to be your friend, right? Why? Why does someone want to be your friend? And it's been hard, but my wife, Isha, has found, I think, she's definitely found a couple of people up here

that she really does rely on and are really good. That's all you need, I think, a couple of good ones. You don't need a load of our... No, it really has. I'm terrified of them leaving home, I think. A couple of good ones. You don't need a load of R. No, it really has. I'm terrified of them leaving home. I've got to say. Are they still quite cuddly or are they get off me, Dad, now at 13 and four?

No, my son couldn't be less cuddly. There's none of that cuddle. The only time we cuddle is when Tottenham score. That's the only time we cuddle is when Tottenham score a goal. That's the only cuddles I could get out of you. I really wanted to go. Oh yeah. So you've not had many cuddles this year,

but actually Tottenham are really good. So it doesn't work, unfortunately. Do you, with that, do you, do you tell him you love him in conversation? How does that go down?

Does that make him go, ah, please don't, or? I tell him I love him all the time i tell them both i love him all the time yeah oh yeah sorry yeah both yeah yeah yeah he's right sorry my daughter's coming you look beautiful you put makeup on is she is she just come from reading look say hello hello hello hello right i'm gonna do this and i'll see you in a minute okay you look beautiful

you look beautiful before but you look beautiful now good save rob you can give me something you know it's very the the what you have to say is like oh you look so people we don't want to be like bigging them up too much because then they think they have to wear makeup all the time oh that is that's amazing thank you look at it do you want to see what she's given she's made me yeah a bowl of flowers and water. Look at that. That is stunning. I'll take a photo and put it on Instagram.

It smells nice too. Thank you. Dog's in it now as well. Okay, do you want to see the dog? Okay, just do a little work. Okay. That's a whippet. Oh, wow.

That is a wow. Do you want to take a photo of that, Michael? You can. That is such a hipster dog. Look at that hipster dog. Oh, no. He's caught up in the water. Do you get... Take the dog, please.

Jesus Christ. That's your photo. It was an accidental hipster dog because it was just one that was going and they're good with kids. Now I look like one of them hipster pedos. Do you get free matcha lattes for life? Oh, my God, no.

I'd totally take him to the cafe. He's a bit too lively still okay sorry i interrupted everyone i take a fight so you made me oh yeah so you tell your son you tell your son and daughter you love them all the time and my son it depends they won't say i love you too if they're around their friends but they will say i love you too definitely if you know if they're in the house and all that and i'm forever just hugging them and kissing kissing them and all the kind of opposites of really how my dad was, right? Not that I didn't know he loved me. I knew he did, but he would have never said it.

He would never have been tapped out. Yeah, he would never have said it. No. My dad's 78, so he's a bit more, what's that mean? Okay, I've got another thing. Nihao's talking about his dad not telling him he loved him. Hang on. So my daughter's coming for another bowl of flowers.

Oh, that's amazing. Thank you. That's so nice. Do you want to quickly wave as well? Come on. Come on. Sorry about this. That's all right.

Say hello. Hello. Hello. OK, it's another one. Another bowl of water by my computer. Thank you. This is so beautiful and so creative. Thank you.

I love it. It's amazing. See you in a minute. Love you. All right. OK, love you. Bye. They just told me she was crying because my other daughter came in and she didn't. creative thank you i love it it's amazing see you in a minute love you all right okay love you bye you just told me she was crying because um my other daughter came in and she didn't

she's got two bowls of water now her flowers in by my computer that's quite dangerous on your reserve computer because you're so you weren't so you weren't tempted to say to your older daughter will you snooze you lose like they the other one came in first yeah right came in first. Yeah, right, came in first. Showed that she loves me more than you do. So you're going to have to work for this. So why don't you go out there and work out what is more impressive than a bowl of water with flowers and come back and see me then. You're not building resilience, Rob Beckett. I've just got one of them little bowls of flower heads, actually.

Yeah. From a daughter they had makeup on. Why don't you put a bit of effort? Bowling in there, au naturel. Get a bit of slap on wow you've got i've got a lot i'm doing it all wrong you're doing it all wrong you're being nice to them so did was your dad would your dad wouldn't say he loved you as such but would he hug no hugs and stuff like that a bit more stuff yeah none of that stuff i've got friends like that and you know but my dad's 78 and proper love you cuddle kiss you and i used to hate it and all stuff like that but

i think it was quite a bit a bit quite good for his time really considering how old he is it's lovely it was that um emotional my son is now taller than me so it's that's also a kind of weird how tall is it thingy's 5'11". 5'3". Yeah, exactly. That's why Niha does radio. Niha's got his name. It's just a nickname, Niha. That's how tall he is. That's exactly what it is.

So how tall is he? He's quite tall, Niha. Yeah, he's 5'11". I'm 5'10". And he's 14. So I think, you know, he's definitely... He's got a couple more inches in him, I reckon. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Can he take you yet in a fight? Or do you reckon you've still got the... So there's a lot of that. There's that Oedipus thing is beginning, right, where they're kind of challenging you. So the one we do is the scrum. So like locking, pushing each other. And the other day, I think for the first time ever,

he pushed me back, whereas I've been pushing him back consistently for the last few years. So he's definitely getting that on. And he's now kind of, he plays football and cricket, so he's just trying to get a little bit more bulked up. He played yesterday and he was very, very physical, which is kind of part of what his game had lacked before.

And he's got a lot of skill on the ball, but he was just, he just, sometimes he just kind of duck out of a 50 50 whereas he went in hard let's say so he's definitely getting a bit more lively so yeah that'll happen that'll that'll definitely do you like what you must love watching him play sport do you love your kids mate you look your eyes completely like lit up with like in awe of it it's the greatest thing ever is Do you shout from the sideline? Yeah, but I'm not in that kind of like,

what are you doing, you mug? Like some dads. Some dads. Go there, chuckle, you pussy! I'm definitely not doing that. And I'm just trying to be encouraging. But also watching cricket. So watching your son bat is the most horrific experience because that walk out

to the crease firstly is so lonely. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you're out for a duck, it's not like any other sport. If you're out on your first ball, a golden duck, right?

That's it, right? There's no second shot second like you can be a striker you can miss you can miss two or three times and still score a goal still still be the hero right but with cricket as soon as you're out that's it and you walk back and i remember three or two or three years ago he got three or four ducks in a row right and on the third or fourth one it's weird because that's quite a good thing if you're doing your to-do list isn't it yeah your ducks in a row but in cricket

it's an absolute nightmare and he burst into tears said he's not doing it anymore and then the coach walked him around the entire boundary and obi-wan kenobi'd him and really brought him back on board again and then he went and then he had to go back out and back because one of their players got injured and he scored loads of runs. So he went back out again and the psychology of that is extraordinary. And you're totally living vicariously through your kids when you watch him play football.

I bet. Self-confidence and self-belief is so much more important than any ability or talent or luck. As long as you can continue to back yourself, your ability will come through. But, yeah, that's good that he's got a coach that did that. How about your daughter? Does she do much sport?

Is she more into the acting? No, she's doing Muay Thai kickboxing, so that's really good. At the moment, she hasn't competed at all. That'll be tough watching her get hit. But it's so brutal. I mean, because with Muay Thai, you're using be tough watching her. But it's so brutal. I mean, cause with my tie, you're using elbows.

You're using, yeah. I mean, it's proper full on contacts, but also watching her drum is amazing. Like when you watch your daughter behind a drum kit and like properly drumming, right. Not just going,

boom. Cause that'd be a lot of parents' nightmare to have a drum kit in the house with a child playing it. No, it's, it's, it's amazing. Because I love drummers. I've always loved drummers. Like being an old school hip hop head, hip hop is all about the percussion,

the percussive spine of a track. So listening to her drum is, again, one of my greatest pleasures. Just actually watching her at a drum kit. Because also as well, how rare is it to see a little Asian girl drumming, right? Yeah. It's just not one of those things you see, rightppelin i'm gonna say something here never never seen one never seen an asian girl maybe that's my problem but i'll never have i'm not against it i'm not against it don't get me wrong i'm up for it but i've never seen it trust me rob asian communities aren't getting together going let's keep this from the white people for as long as we can

and having loads of Asian girls driving. We don't have secret societies where this is going on all the time. It's just not happening. So the fact that she's chosen those two things actually points to what an interesting young lady she is. And why she finds it quite difficult to fit in with the idea of being a girly girl. She's just not that,

she's just not that kid. Right. And that's, that's amazing. And that's something I'm incredibly proud of her is that she's just doing her own thing. And she was sit there and build Lego for five hours and then, you know,

and drum and she's massively interested in how things work and how things are connected it's just brilliant we've said this before on the show and it's i and i don't repeat myself but i think it's worth repeating in this instance about kids and at school not fitting in and things like that is when katherine ryan's mum's advice where katherine was having trouble at school and she said i just want to be normal like the other girls and her advice was they're not normal they're ordinary ordinary. There's a difference. Yes. I mean, that's really good advice. Yeah. And I think that's what's sort of happened in a way, isn't it?

If she's into Mai Tai and drumming, it's just not the norm. It's not the norm. And also as well, the modern way of describing ordinary is basic. That's the word they use, right? They're basic, right? And you don't want to be basic, right? And this doesn't work out for you. And this won't feel great now, but trust me you're older this is a superpower right like yeah being

different is an absolute superpower like being seeing the world in a different way being curious about it you know doing the things that other people don't do makes you just kind of incredible really you know it's difficult for me to understand that as like one of those normal and popular teenagers that i was so yeah when josh was just like just pulling girls and drinking cider all the other norms but it does kind of work with you being a sociopathic unpopular adult which is uh which is uh i mean it's always gonna be one stage in it josh it's gonna flip at some point it's gonna flip at some point. It's going to flip at some point. But you know what, Nihal?

I think considering that was a really tough six years if you had to move your whole family for your work and then your kids weren't getting on well at school. But it sounds like all of you are blossoming now, which makes me want to read your book even more, Let's Talk How to Have Better Conversations, because I think the reality is life can be really hard and really tough and we find it all quite overwhelming. But I think the truth of it is be really hard and really tough. And we find it all quite overwhelming.

But I think the truth of it is we are way better at dealing at it than we give credit to. And it isn't that life needs to get easier. It's just we need to trust that we're strong enough to deal with it. And I think the way you unpack things and the way you work through things is really inspiring and really impressive. And there'll be a lot of people that have had to move, that their kids aren't getting on. And I think it's really good talking about it because it shows that you can work through things and it really helps. And I think the book, and I love the cover, by the way, with a parrot on the front. It's absolutely brilliant.

So I think, you know, I imagine there's lots of stuff like that in the book. We've got to ask as well, how would you rank this conversation? What kind of quality of conversation have we offered in the last hour? of conversation have we offered in the last hour what's what's i think what's really good about comedians especially comedians that are used to interacting with crowds into it is that you are listeners right like you have to be listeners right yeah the only thing is and this hasn't been the case in this conversation is my daughter said this to me she said because they talked about this at school and it was this phrase are you listening to understand or are you listening to talk right yeah yeah worst kind

of conversations are people that are purely listening to talk they're not listening to understand i'm getting better though i'm trying but that but that's why this format is is so much different than you having to be on a you know know, on a game show or a panel show. So where you are, of course, all you're doing is listening to talk because you're there to entertain. The problem is, is when that translates into everyday life. Right. And because you, because you two are very famous people, people are often only wanting to hear what you've got to say. Right.

So they're always asking you about yourselves. And the problem with that, of course, is that that can have an effect on your own curiosity levels because you're always having to talk about yourself. You know what? It leads to a third type of listening, which is what I do if I get in a situation where I think someone's going to ask me about myself, which is listening to avoid talking about myself

so going on a pre-emptive strike if say I got in a cab and he recognised me I'd rather than go down the conversation of what's Jimmy Carr like I'd straight away

try and ask him about football brexit and why it works stuff like that yeah it's going well isn't it and then let him run let him rip a lovely country rwanda is and why more people should go there oh well mind it a lot gets cold here doesn doesn't it? No, that's an interesting... Deflection. So deflection. Deflection.

Yeah, which I know is a bad habit, but I can't talk about Jimmy Carr again. Well, your book, well, it's out. It came out on the 18th of August. You can get it sort of online and in shops, can't you? So that is Let's Talk How to Have Better Conversations. And, you know, the book, it goes from, you know know a police crisis negotiator john sutherland talking about hostage negotiation and the listening involved in that to someone who spent a year with neo-nazis making an emmy

award-winning documentary her as a muslim woman doing that to lorraine kelly i mean it's a fairly diverse yeah guests that i've got for the book you know you? So how was it sitting down with them? I suppose, is it easier with a book than this? I mean, I know this sounds bad. When you do your five live show, you give a really good chunk of time to people. So like you'll come on your five live show and it'll be 45 minutes or something.

Are you ever five minutes into a 45 minutes and you think, oh, Jesus. Oh, God, this is going slow. How am I going to get this conversation to go forward? And we want names. Do you know what? The worst conversation, if you want to check it out, it's on Headliners, the podcast that I do, the BBC,

is Mark Maron, the comedian. Without question, the worst interview I've ever done. He got a name, great. Yeah. What went wrong? Do you know what? It was just that we totally didn't get each other. And what he wanted was an opportunity, I think, to tell his gags. Right.

And what I wanted was, so what I would do was I would describe a scenario that was in his book. And what I wanted was the journey that got to that scenario. Whereas he kept thinking that I was giving away the punchlines to the jokes that he wanted to tell. Right. But the thing wasn't, maybe he wasn't briefed very well for people is that this isn't Graham Norton. When you come on my show, which is all about, just tell us the anecdotes, right?

And then go, right? This is actually, we're trying to find out who you are and how you became. And I use the word sociopath, I remember, to describe who he was when he was younger, because there's loads of things in the book about how kind of horrific he was to people. And there was a lot of drugs

and there was a lot of that going on. And I remember him saying things like, people like you use that word sociopath without knowing what it means, without knowing what it was. And then I remember afterwards, afterwards, we came out of the studio and he kind of tried to be a bit chummy. It was face to face as well. Face to face. Yeah. Right. And then he came out trying to be quite chummy. And I told him to fuck off.

Right. I went, are you joking? Like the way you just carried on. Like he just was. And the thing was, in your circles, Mark Maron is well known. Right. Yeah. And in America, he's quite well known.

But in the UK, he's not really that well known. Right. He's quite cultish. Right. So my audience were like, who is this horrible guy like being being horrible to you right like the vast majority of texts were like get him off and then and then i was told later on that night that he was performing at the lowry and he actually called me out to know if i was there no like he was like yeah he's like is is the guy i think he may have said my name he may not have the guy from radio is he here in the

audience weirdly enough i had been invited to go before the interview after the interview i said to the prs are you joking what spending night with him rather than go and see my family so and then apparently this is what i was told by people who were in the audience, that he then went on one about how I'd ruined his day. Like it was so weird. Oh, wow. The whole experience with him.

You can actually listen to the podcast. It's Headliners, BBC Sounds, Mark Maron. And I've never listened to it back again. I cannot lie. I can tell you now, it's going to be astonishing that this podcast is going to be, this one we're doing now, it's going to be number two in the charts for that. I've never listened to it since because it was so kind of awkward

and it was so weird because, look, ultimately, and you both know this because you've been on my show to do it, is that you guys are coming on to sell something, right? Yeah, and it's a bit of a deep dive. Yeah, and I'm providing a platform for us to have a proper conversation about not just the thing that you're selling, but kind of who you are and how you get to do the things that you do and why you do the things that you do. So there's a quid pro quo there, right? You're not necessarily doing me a massive favor, right? Because my audience is not turning up to hear mark maron they're like they're not going we've been we've been waiting for this moment for six years you go to his podcast you know they're there for you

and whoever you're talking to exactly right you're listening to my show on five live not because of a specific person but you know there's going to be someone interesting and we're going to have an interesting conversation right that's the point so when he was like really kind of weird and defensive and, uh, and you know, a lot of people will have to listen to it and they'll make up their own choice, whether I got it completely wrong, um, or not. Right. That's that, that just is what it is. But my, in my defense, I would say I'm doing this 12 hours a week and if he's the only dude right yeah i can remember in six years yeah then maybe it wasn't me like i was just doing what i do right so is that it right i can't wait to listen to that yeah no just just and i've interviewed people who are

regarded to be quite um who don't like being interviewed right and had really good interviews with them damon albert and tom york those kinds of people right and we've had great conversations so for Mark Maron to be that guy yeah um so what is one thing that we do this about um what is one thing that your partner does your wife does parenting wise that annoys you um that you haven't really told her maybe you have now you've been together a little while that if you she heard on air, she'd go, yeah, fair enough. And also, what is one thing she does apparently in wise that's brilliant and a real positive that you don't tell her she does brilliantly enough?

So we can weigh it then, rather than it just being a negative. Yes, of course. So the thing that we argue about the most. Okay, you're going to go for the negative first. Fair enough, that's fine. Yes, we're going to go for the negative first. Let's get that out of the way, because I want to finish on a positive.

Yeah, that came straight to mind, actually well because it's ongoing it's like a daily thing it's that i think she's way too strict and she thinks i'm way too slack that's okay that is that's that's a and that is that's an immovable problem in sense of the discussion it's really difficult that is one that we are trying to work out every single day and uh it's a challenge the positive thing is she's an unbelievable mother i mean she's a lioness she will fight for them and defend them and she organizes everything to within an inch of its life it's she's so on it she's unbelievable you know she's just the most brilliant organizer but also super supportive of them and um yeah and she's you know it would all fall apart without her i mean it would genuinely all fall apart you know they'd they'd i mean i

would be on uber eats every night right like if it was if it was left uh if it was left to that but also just again once they become teenagers you'll find this and once they're doing clubs and they're doing sports the logistics involved to make sure that they're getting to training or they're getting to the match on time is you know it's a huge amount of work and she's just brilliant at it she's absolutely brilliant and she's so kind of fierce about them she's fierce in everything that she does and that's amazing it's nice finishing on positive isn't it josh yeah it takes us two and a half years to realize that we're all a work in progress every day is a school day isn't it thank you so much

it was one of my favorites we've ever I love that it was really good cheers mate thanks thank you big love big love Nihao Arthur Naika great one

I enjoyed that I didn't know I didn't know what it was going to be like because I've met him before great guy really funny and stuff but with people where they're

like you know he's a broadcaster he can get really serious but I think that was a perfect balance perfect balance I was exactly that is

exactly what i want this podcast to be to future guests really funny stuff but also some really interesting stuff and he was opening up about moving and stuff and i thought it was great because there must be so many people listening where the kids aren't happy at school and i'm so lucky that my girls enjoy it um but it must be so hard if they don't waiting to pick them up every day so um it's nice to know that you get it gets better yes um thank you for listening thank you to nihau uh let's talk how to have better conversations is out now also um if you want it let's just google it headliners oh yeah headliners mark maron i think it's got a bit of a cult following as an awkward interview anyway,

like outside of near how Mark Maron in that sort of, you know, online world. Oh, well, there we go. I look forward to that. It's from 2019. Pre-pandemic. Oh, to be in the room with someone that hates you like that. It's bad enough on Zoom, isn't it, when it goes badly? We get by.

Right. I'll see you. I'll speak to you on Tuesday, Josh. See you on Tuesday. You go and sort your kids out, Rob. I'll see you I'll speak to you on Tuesday Josh see you on Tuesday you go and sort your kids out Rob I can see you

looking over your shoulder bye