Rob Beckett and Josh Widdicombe's Parenting Hell - S6 EP36: Alastair Campbell

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

Joining us this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) is the former journalist and strategist, author and mental health campaigner - Alastair Campbell. His new book 'But What Can I Do?: Why Politics Has Gone So Wrong, and How You Can Help Fix It' is available now. This episode includes discussion of alcoholism and depression. Please keep this in mind when deciding if, how and when you’ll listen. For resources on these topics, visit https://resources.byspotify.com/. Parenting Hell is available exclusively (for free!) only on Spotify every Tuesday and Friday. Please leave a rating and review you filthy street dogs... xx If you want to get in touch with the show here's how: EMAIL: [e-mail] INSTAGRAM: @parentinghell MAILING LIST: parentinghellpodcast.mailchimpsites.com  A 'Keep It Light Media' Production  Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello I'm Rob Beckett and I'm Josh Willicombe. Welcome to Parents in Hell the show in which Josh and I discuss what it's really like to be a parent which I would say can be a little tricky. So to make ourselves and hopefully you feel better about the trials and tribulations of modern day parenting each week we'll be chatting to a famous parent about how they're coping or hopefully how they're not coping and we'll also be hearing from you the listener with your tips advice and of course tales of parenting woe because let's be honest there are plenty of times where none of us know what we're doing hello you're listening to parenting hell with hey charlie can you say Rob Beckett? Rob Beckett.

And Josh Widdicombe. Josh Widdicombe. Josh Widdicombe. How about me? Okay, can you say Rob Beckett? Rob Beckett. And Josh Widdicombe. Rob Beckett.

Real nice, guys, realakin. Real nice, guys. Real nice. Real nice, guys. That was a good one, wasn't it? It sounded Welsh. Were they Welsh? Well, he's pretty cool, wasn't he? He had quite a sexy voice.

Highly relatable, sexy Rob and Josh. He's in Dubai, so it's difficult to know. Here is Charlie, 29 29 months and his big sister clara 67 months introducing your name to the podcast we're all big fans although their mother doesn't like them hearing any swear words so we have to listen in secret during school runs otherwise it keeps me going while running throughout the year including in the peak of summer in dubai you absolute psycho james um oh one thing we do talk about in this episode before we start chatting about other things um we talk to alistair campbell and we do talk about um addiction

and alcoholism so a little trigger warning about that so i've got a couple of things to talk to you about josh yeah i've realized that i've been to i'd probably say about 30 church halls in the last seven years near my house for different parties and i've become i feel like i've become a bit of an expert on church halls. Oh yeah. Talk me through it. I've just got a lot of opinions on church halls because. Go on.

What's a, what makes a good or a bad church hall? you don't know you're in a good one till you get in one. And you realise. They've always said it. There's a, this is, they spend a bit of money on this one.

This one's nice. The cage. They've done it. They've got a good collection play going around. Exactly. They've got a big donor. Someone lives around here. Someone really lives around here. A bit of money. Loves the church. Someone's worried about collection plate going around here. Exactly. They've got a big donor. Someone lives around here. Someone who lives around here with a bit of money loves the church.

Someone's worried about going to heaven around here. A millionaire's worried that a rich man can't get into heaven. And they've got that air con on the wall. I tell you what, I do like to see, Nan again, the caged radiator. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You see a caged radiator. You see them sort of school tables that fold down and get stacked.

Chairs that stack on each other. The V- v mop yeah why why are they caging their radiators in churches stop children touching them and burning their hands but i never got it because then the metal on the cage gets hot so they've just made it bigger and hotter yeah exactly or is it to stop people turning the temperature up and down so it doesn't get too expensive? Oh, my God. They sometimes do that. You know, landlords do that. Do you know who would turn it up? Rose.

Does she have it too hot? She. I turned the heating off, Rob. Yeah? Because it's summer. Because it's May. Yeah, because it's May. Because it was fucking boiling.

There was a radiator on in my room last night, Rob. Overnight? About 7pm. You don't need radiators. She's not even here, Rob. Overnight? What, about 7pm? You don't need radiators. She's not even here, Rob. She scheduled it. On the nest. You got a nest?

We've got a hive. Hive. Hive. Do you know what I love more than anything? Is when a new invention comes out that's not fully patented. Like, you know, Dyson sort of just were in charge of that for a bit. But there's inventions that come out and everyone goes, oh, yeah, oh yeah that's quite good actually just a little sort of smart heater thing and they go that one's called the nest what should we call it what's like a nest but different um hive what about the mound anyway yeah it's churchills i've

realized i've been a lot of churchills that's what i was talking about uh oh yeah and oh the other thing so two things. Gabby Roslin left me a voice note. Do you want to hear it? Yeah. Here we go. Listen to this. It was quite fun.

A random thing. Me and Gabby Roslin go way back. I used to do a radio show when she got me on to do, like, little comedy bits years and years ago. Yeah. And I remember she comes to my first Hammersmith Apollo gig. And she was sort of like the main, well, only celebrity was there. And it was just all my friends and family my mates went why is gabby roslin here because if it's like someone from comedy

they'll sort of get the link but i was like what no she came to my leicester square gig years ago oh she's loved she's so lovely she's been on the show and she listened to this oh my god i just got off the tube and there was a guy on the tube pretending to be you and giving everybody autographs, and it wasn't you. You weren't on the tube right now at Piccadilly Circus. It was hysterical. And he even had your voice. He was doing autographs. I had to put up my stories because it made me laugh so much.

Anyway, I hope you're well, my darling. Lots of love. I had lots of love. Lots of love. I haven't seen you for far too long. Big kisses. Oh, Gabby Rosley. Oh, Gabby Rosley. I love Gabby Rosley.

That is so good. Is it on our stories now? It might have gone now. She didn't film the guy. But if you are a tube user and you've come across a man pretending to be me, can you let us know? Try and take a photo. We'll try and track this guy down.

We need to know who this guy is. Because often there's this thing where people get impersonated on Instagram. Not in real life. I go, in real life, being Beckett. we're trying to track this guy down. We need to know who this guy is. Because often there's this thing where people get impersonated on Instagram, but there's a guy going... In real life, being Beckett. Blimey. But just like... But it's not great for me, is it, though, is it? Because if he...

Because Gabby Rossi knows me. She's met me. And she still wasn't 100%. No, she was like, was it you? Because it sounded like you. Because she might have thought I was having some sort of episode

where I, like, ignored her and just was going up to people and getting photos. But if people were having photos, they must have thought it was me. So there are people that think I go on the tube and ask people if they want autographs. Yeah. Which is not a great look PR-wise, is it? No, it's not ideal. And do you know, now, I say this as a huge fan of Gabby Roslin, Rob.

Oh, yeah. You're aware of that. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm a huge respecter of all of her work. Yeah. And I think she's great. Go on. But it's a bad sign, isn't it, for the fickleness of showbiz

when you're sat on a tube train as Gabby Roslin. Not only are people ignoring you, but they're ignoring you in favour of a look alike of someone who's currently more on the TV. Yes but I imagine Gabby Roslin who's a very lovely normal person would be on the tube. It's because you're head down.

Head down headphones and you're just getting on with the day. Not like old fake Bobby Beckett who's walking on. Hey Ria, old Rod Beckett Rod Beckett Who's walking on Old Rod Beckett Who's bowling around Having photos So I imagine people were going

Is that Gabby Rosling? But they were far too concerned by the man pretending to be me Shouting, what mate, do you want a photo? Yeah, and do you know what? Of all the comedians That people could imagine doing that The problem is you are probably high near the top of the list Yeah, and that annoys me, actually,

because I think people come up and talk to me if I'm sat on my own as if, like, I'm scared and lonely and I'll be glad of it. And I don't mind a chat. Yeah, they think you're mate. That's the problem with your public image, Rob. You are prime approach in the street. No one's doing that with Dylan Moran. No, or Jack Dean Romesh.

They obviously recognise him, but they leave them alone because they think they'll be told to piss off. Where I look like I'll be glad of it. Yeah, exactly. But I'm quite happy to be sat on my own. We haven't mentioned this though, Josh. Oh, yeah. After the O2 gig, and this will be the last time we talk about the tour.

After the gig, my father and mother-in-law came down backstage to say goodbye. Oh, yeah. And we need to put this picture on instagram you were wearing a black and brownie beige striped top horizontal stripes yeah yeah my mother-in-law was wearing a black and brownie beige horizontal striped top astonishing yeah exactly the same and actually the same thickness of stripe not only was it the same colour. She's a well-dressed woman. Very well turned out is old Teresa. And then we were laughing at that, that you had the same

tops on. Then Rose came along, your wife, and then Michael, Teresa's husband, and they were both wearing the exact same colour sort of bright orangey coat. And it was hilarious. And the photo was amazing. We're loving it. to reason not so much

enjoying the photo teresa and michael a bit more anxious about the photo where you and rose are having the time of your life um but yeah it was it was so funny teresa and michael not on a high from having played the o2 maybe whereas i'm still riding that wave yeah you were still flying from that solo cup of tea you had at the interval but yeah we'll put that picture on instagram it's very much very very enjoyable um so uh shall we bring on that picture on Instagram. It's very much, very, very enjoyable. So shall we bring on Alistair Campbell? He's got a book out. He mentions it.

Yes. The very competitive Alistair Campbell. So what is Alistair Campbell? He's a writer. He was a spin doctor for Tony Blair and the Labour government. Is that spin doctor the correct term? In the 90s, yeah. Media advisor.

Yeah, I think so. Political advisor. Yeah, spin doctor would be the colloquial term, I suppose. And now he has a podcast that's not quite as popular as ours called The Rest Is Politics. But he's a very, very interesting man, very funny, and he's got three kids that are all grown up that he talks about. And, yeah, he gets slightly serious at points,

but I think he's very interesting and good to talk about it. But very funny man, very interesting man. And his name is Alistair Campbell. Alistair Campbell, hello. Hello, guys. How are you? Alistair, we thought you seemed a little bit stressed at the start and we thought it might be that you've got a busy morning because there's loads of election results coming in and the polls

and you might be on all the channels everywhere. But it actually turns out you've got a dog in your house that's angry about a dog that lives next door is that correct yeah this is about parenting this isn't it yes so our daughter grace who is a comedian josh is yeah yeah and she she lives next door because when my mum was still alive fiona's mum is still alive as well. She's now 98. We need a dog now? Yeah.

Slightly. Don't worry, it's all colour. It's all colour. So we thought, being nice children of a certain generation, that a flack came on the market next door. We said, let's get that flack. And then one of our mums can live there whenever they feel like, well, my mum died.

And anyway, she lived up north. Jonah's mum decided living next to us would not be compatible with her life. So Grace spotted a gap in the market. So anyway, and then Grace decides to get a dog, similar breed to our own. What breed have you got? Cavalier King Charles. Very, very topical.

Yes. Yes. So, and then decides to go to America while the dog's on heat. We've been dealing with that. And our dog, Skye, she's sort of getting used to it but if she sees the little dog eddie getting again within a sort of three mile radius of her dog bowl all right that's what you're hearing next door so they're in there together at the moment in the like the house i'm guessing from the silence now that fiona has picked up on my vibes

and you're separating them do you do a lot i think people must i'm very excited to know how alistair campbell parents because i'd say you've got a reputation for strong vibes if you want to produce strong vibes is that fair to say yeah um do you parent like you manage the press corps in 1997 no no probably probably too far the other way really you're softy so have you got one daughter is that just grace is that got a great grace of the youngest and i've got two, you've got two older brothers. And what ages are they? Rory is 35 and Callum's 33 and Grace is 29 last week. Right. Okay.

So busy house, three of them. No, well, it was a busy house, but I think, I think the reason why I probably am a bit, I can be, I can be very tough, but they've got to push me a long, long way before that happens. Yeah. A long way. pushed me a long, long way before that happens.

Yeah. A long way. And I think actually partly we are quite liberal in our views, sort of stuff like parenting, but we are also, I think there's a lot of guilt going on in me that the fact that, and Grace does, there's a lot of her comedy gets into this thing about, you know, absent parents and the daddy was never there and a daddy loved Tony Blair more than he loved me and all that stuff yeah um so I think that maybe makes us makes us a bit softer than we otherwise would be and probably should be so because you were at

the point of their child like the say 97 to whatever, 2003 or whatever, were the key moments when you were really busy. Well, no, I started in 1994 in opposition and Grace had literally just been born. Right. Wow. Rory was at school, Callum was just starting school and Grace wasn't even born. Was Grace born when John Smith died?

Yeah, she'd just been born. So a bit like our age of our kids now, Josh, that I've got a five-year-old and a seven-year-old and Josh has got younger ones, Yeah, she'd just been born. So a bit like our age of our kids now, Josh, that, you know, I've got a five-year-old and a seven-year-old, and Josh has got younger ones, but it's sort of like the peak bit of their childhood was when your career was going stratospheric, really, wasn't it? It's interesting how you count them that way, from the young to the older.

Yeah. Interesting. Does the older child resent the fact that the five-year-old is your favourite? Is that how you deal with a difficult question, to put it back on other people, Alex? No, what I do is I say five and seven, because then I'm highlighting that I've got a younger one, so it looks like it's still hard.

Because you go over and you do a parenting podcast, and you go, yeah, because you know what, you start when they're 15 and 18, and and you go i've not actually seen them for that is quite hardcore bits of parents because when they're really young and babies it's hard but they don't know you're not there but when they are five six seven and eight that around that age and you are sort of working i imagine the hours you were doing in that period of a non-stop because you were working so much do you think there's a bit of guilt there now they're older that you were not there as much?

Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. I don't let it get to me that much. I think it gets to Fiona more. I think she, and look, the truth is I did, she did pick up a lot of the pieces and she was doing the job as well. She tells this terrible story about me

it really is terrible but you're not going to like this you're not going to think I'm a good person a lot of people don't anyway so that's fine you don't Josh I know you think I'm absolutely marvellous I do so I made you what you are by giving you your best element on that

programme you do but just those your best element on that programme you do. We don't talk about that. But just those people who do watch your programme ought to know that when they do that bullshit buzzer thing, that was my idea. I didn't get a single penny for it. I get no thanks for it, no credit. What's this buzzer thing? There's a bullshit button on the last leg that Hilsey presses

that says bullshit. And when we were interviewing Nick Clagg all those years years ago when he was the deputy prime minister wasn't he um we we had you on to teach alex alex how to do a political interview and you said you should do a button that says bullshit and that was your idea but our idea was to run with that increasingly thin joke for eight more years and the commitment to that is quite impressive isn't it yeah but to think so they they benefited hugely financially and culturally an idea for which they literally never paid me a penny you are good at spin because i didn't even know that button fucking exists and i'm in the industry anyway so this is a terrible story. So what happened was this, that John Smith, the Labour leader,

died in May 1994. Tony Blair became Labour leader in the election that followed it. And then he asked me to work for him and I said no, initially. And the reason I said no, lots of reasons, but one of them was Fiona didn't want me to do it, my parents didn't want me to do it. Two young boys and a daughter who's just been born, doing pretty well in journalism,

just got my life together after a breakdown, all this sort of stuff going on. And anyway, Tony, he sort of thought he's going to work on me, so he and Cherie and the kids, they literally just turned up on holiday where we were. Oh, wow. Like Alex Ferguson would. A bit like that, a bit like that. And also, we were on holiday where we were oh wow like alex ferguson would a bit like that a bit like and and and also we were on holiday with neil and glenn i'm not done don't want to make this like sound like a labour party soap opera but we were on holiday with neil and glenn is kinnick

we're in france right and neil was also trying to talk fucking love europe that lot didn't they that's the what is it that's the longest I've gone all day with that I mentioned in Brexit

so Tony talks me into it and he then goes off I then now I've

decided I'm going to do it I'm just in the zone already and I want to get back to start

working and planning so I say look I'm going to get back to start working and planning so i say look i'm going to go back a few days early um i know this is it gets worse it gets worse so i don't particularly want to take a train and i don't want to fly so i'm going to take the car i think you should get a hire car for the rest of the holiday so i drove holiday so i drove the older of the kids to this hire car place yeah but it wasn't open it wasn't open yet but i was in a hurry oh no oh it's terrible so you left her and the kids at the hire car place to wait for it to open and then you drove back to go to work. Yeah. But you won the election. With Josh, the kind of landslide

that political parties have dreamt of. And what's more, on the day, on the day, here's another, there's some good name dropping coming up. On the day that we won the election, Tony and Chererry had to go to the palace to see the queen because that's how it works and i'll try and educate you as we go that's how it works i've seen the michael sheen movie i've seen the michael sheen so he and and jonathan power and i were in the we're in the car behind behind the cops so we get we enter the palace and we get siphoned off into this sort of side room and all the sort of palace courtiers are there.

And we're talking to them while Tony and Cherie go off to see the Queen. And I'm talking to Robin Janvin, who's the Queen's private secretary, and he's looking over my shoulder because the telly's on behind me. And he says, oh, look at those. And they're reporting live, look at those. They're reporting live from Downing Street. And Robin goes, oh, lovely children. And I turn around, it's my kids on the telly.

And I say, oh, cool, yeah, look, I haven't seen the brages. There's Grace with a little flag and the boys. Well, How was Tony Blair with the kids? Was he good? Oh yeah, oh yeah It still is actually In fact Grace does this hilarious Act where She got

When she started to do comedy She was doing a Gig in London somewhere. And she mentioned that I was her dad. A woman in the audience went absolutely berserk. They started shouting at her and your dad's a war criminal and da, da, da. And then stormed the stage. Oh, my word.

Right. So anyway, they took her off. So she phoned me up and she told me what happened. She sounded a little bit shaken up about it. The next day I was with Tony. Right. So anyway, they took her off. So she phoned me up and she told me what happened. She sounded a little bit shaken up about it. The next day, I was with Tony, right? So I was telling her about it. And he said, oh, that's terrible. That's so bad.

And that's all because of me, really. It's not because of you. It's because of me. And he felt quite bad about it. At which point, Grace phoned me just for a chat. So I said, how are you feeling? Oh, not bad. Yeah, it's fine.

I mean, who cares? In the end, silly old cow, blah, blah, blah. She's very good like that. She's very good at it. In my new book, which we have not even mentioned. We do that. We do it in the middle. I knew, who cares in the end, silly old cow, blah, blah. She's very good like that. She's very good at it. In my new book, which we have not even mentioned. We do that. We do it in the middle. I knew that was going to happen. We do it in the middle.

I've invented a new word called perseverance and Grace is very perseverant. She perseveres and she's resilient. So she bounced back. So I said, well, listen, I'm actually with the guy whose fault it was. Do you want to have a quick chat? So I put him on and Tony just did this oh grace I'm so sorry it's horrible for that to happen to you and it's you know it's not it's not your fault it's not your dad's fault it's really about me isn't it and so then she tells this story and she says so I uniquely in the world am the one person to whom Tony Blair has apologised for the Iraq war.

So get good out of bad, we say. And you come across as so proud, right, when you talk about your daughter being a comedian. Is that not stressful? I'd say it, and I think you'd agree with me on this, Rob, I'd find it incredibly stressful to have a daughter or son as a comedian. Well, yeah, but I think think alice had a slightly different difficult stressful job to us where in the grand scheme of things yeah running an election campaign isn't as you know i think i think it no i'm proud of all of them i think that you know my son my son callum the thing i'm proudest of him about is the fact that he uh

he's a recovering alcoholic he was you know he's not had a drink for 11 years and that makes me feel proud about him. And likewise, our old boy, Rory, just, you know, one of the cleverest kids you could meet. And so I am proud of them. The thing with watching Grace, no, it's difficult to be honest. It is difficult. And she does want, she wants our approval a lot. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but she wants us to go to her shows. The first one, the first time she did the Edinburgh Festival,

it was actually called Why I Will Never Go Into Politics. So it was about, a lot of it was about growing up with me as her dad. And she says, just go in the back and don't let anybody see you. I want you to be able to go in the back. But it was one of these events where you sat at the back but then everybody had to go past you to get into their seats so i'm sitting in the back and everybody sees me and it she then when she gets onto all the stuff she does about sex which is quite sort of difficult and challenging for a dad they would laugh and then i started to notice that quite about a good third of them would look around at me first before they laughed.

So she'd do her stuff. If I was laughing, they'd feel, oh, it's okay to laugh. They were sort of feeling my pain, I think. What's it like to hear her talk about sex? Because she's very open. Oh, it's quite difficult, to be honest. I mean, she talks about stuff that i wouldn't talk about to my best mate yeah but on stage in front of hundreds of people there's this bit where i mean i don't even i don't

even know if i can bring myself to describe it she's basically she's giving a blow job to a microphone on the stage and and people are laughing a lot i tell you what i do i put myself in this thing where i really enjoy the fact that people are laughing and i look at them i look at them laughing is it great they're laughing at and and i sometimes do when she does stuff i sometimes think i pretend it's somebody else yeah yeah i think in a way though i think all comedians when you first break through unless you're a character act you the whole thing is introducing yourself to the world of comedy and go hello this is me this is who i am all my stuff was dominated by class and what my parents did and said and you know her dad happens to be someone who's very well known so she has to address that

or otherwise it's weird if she doesn't and then the shock stuff is probably coming through because that's what's more shocking than your dad being alistair campbell is to do stuff about sex and blowjobs because that sort of goes who cares about what your dad is if that's the shocking material however i imagine over time she as all comics grow and develop you find your voice and different things you want to talk about and all comics then end up just doing hysterical stuff because you sort of get slightly bored about talking about yourself you just talk about your view on things yeah well that's that i think that's what that's really interesting because i think that's what's happening that's what's happening so the last show i went to was

the alley pally a few weeks ago and it was listen it was very very funny and she got a standing ovation and what have you but actually afterwards speaking, speaking to people, Tessa Jowell's daughter, Jess was there and she said, you know what? That was one of the most impressive feminist arguments I've ever seen. And it was really, when you boiled it down, it was like, it was a show about feminism, but it was just incredibly funny. And I think that's where she's moving. She's moving to a different space where she wouldn't. Would you, would you tell her if she had a bad gig? I'd tell her if she wasn't as good as I expected her to be, yeah. Would you?

She gets quite upset with that. Really? Yeah. But she knows. Deep down, she knows. I mean, I've never seen her had a really bad one, ever. But I've seen sometimes, because, you know, when you see a particular woman, like when she was doing the Edinburgh show,

she was going around little places in Londonondon and trying out material and stuff and i'd go along and i look i help her with stuff she tries out all her stuff on me i i go and watch it i tell her where i think she could tighten things up or deliver things better i give her some you know she denies this but i give her some pretty good material. Let's do your book now as well at this point before we get back into parenting. You're only in there using us and our listeners

and our views. I know what you're like. You're very competitive. You've been trying to get me on since week one, haven't you? I'm just going to read you the text. Only because Josh loves you. I'm quite chilled out about it,

but he's a proper fangirl. Right, I'm going to read you what you said. I said, Hi, Mr. C. It feels like it's been too long before I was the end of it. Mr. C! about it but you're he's a proper fangirl but right i'm gonna read you what you said uh i said hi mr c it feels like it's been too long before i was the end you fucking loser that is lame isn't it sorry it's been a long time but my tongue's firmly up your ass so it's very difficult to uh text mr c fuck carry on sorry would you like to come on the most popular podcast in the country to a text. This does see. Fuck you.

Carry on. Sorry. Would you like to come on the most popular podcast in the country? We would love to have you on Parenting Hour. I said I already presented.

No, you don't. No, you don't. In what way, you've put, in what way would you usefully promote my book out in May?

That was your response. And then you've put, That's fair enough. And then you've put, that's fair enough. Could we do it around book time May or are you desperate to have me on to give you a bit of a boost? So you've got a book out.

You've read my emails, Josh, but have you read the book? I've read, so we got sent the book 48 hours ago. So I haven't read the full thing, but I'm enjoying it and I've scanned through so I haven't just read the start. I've read your book, Win ago. So I haven't read the full thing, but I'm enjoying it. And I've scanned through, so I haven't just read the start. I've read your book, Winners.

I've read that one as well. But I've not read this one. Josh does the reading. I just pick up the banter if it gets a bit awkward or quiet. That's how we separate it. I just call people Mr. C and then Rob actually is. This is a good delineation of roles, I would say. Exactly.

But it's called Why Politics Has Gone So Wrong and how you can help fix it. No, that's the subtitle. Don't get it right. That's the subtitle. But what can I do? What can I do? What can I do? What can I do?

Here we go. Here we go. But what can I do? Well, you tell us, Alistair. What can I do? It was 19 minutes in before he got a bit testy. I thought we've done well there. Yeah. Well, yeah, because, you know, sometimes you feel in before he got a bit testy. I thought we've done well there. Yeah.

Well, yeah, because, you know, sometimes you feel like politics can be a bit elitist and if you don't know everything about it and you do something wrong, you can be laughed at. So thanks for telling me I read the title of it wrong. That's really helping me get into the world of politics. So what you can do... I tell you what, the point...

We can all do something is the point. I think what I tried to do is debunk this idea that one politicians are all the same no they're not they're very very different and who's in power really really matters two that nothing ever changes change is happening so fast and the question is do you want to be part of it or do you want to just happen to you and the third is that people can't make a difference on their own people can make a difference so i'm not saying read my book and you can become prime minister i am saying that if you're really pissed off with the way the world is and the way politics is don't just moan about it don't just tweet get engaged

get active and start doing stuff and i try to you know so i explain i try to analyze what's gone wrong with our politics which i think a lot of it is down to populism and polarization so just uh just to unpack those terms for people, polarisation is like the two extremes, right? Well, they're very related. There's this guy, Moises Naim, who's a Venezuelan, brilliant writer and used to be a politician. He's got this title called 3P Autocrats, Populism, Polarisation, Post-Truth. So Trump, Johnson, Putin, Orban, Erdogan, Modi, there's a lot of them. Populism is basically where you divide your electorate into an elite, bad, boo, and the pure people, good. And the populist politician, even though they come from the elite, like Johnson and Trump, they tell the pure people that they are the only people who really understand them.

And they say to them that if it wasn't for this wretched elite over here who are doing you in because they're looking after everything for themselves, your lives would be much better. So Brexit absolutely was populist polarising and post-truth. Polarisation is where you divide people rather than bring together. You have, instead of seeing politics as the means to solve problems, you use it to exploit problems. So, for example, Trump build a wall. Why? Because, you know, Mexicans are bad. Suella Braverman send people to Rwanda.

Why? Because that's a way of I can say to people who are probably never going to meet a refugee, you are good, refugees are bad. I'm standing up for you against an elite, people like me, people like you probably, who actually think it's no bad thing that we're nice to people who are fleeing war and famine and persecution, etc. And then post-truth is not just about lying. It's about deliberately distorting the realities in the world. So, for example, recent one, how many times have you heard recently,

we've got 20,000 more police officers? Well, actually, no, you haven't. But you have a debate about that rather than actually the state of crime. Post-truth is Vladimir Putin saying that we haven't invaded Ukraine. We've got a special military operation because the Nazis are taking over. Post-truth is virtually anything that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth. Post-truth is Boris Johnson saying, you know, a border will be built in the Irish Sea, will go down the Irish Sea over my dead body? Post-truth is Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings saying,

vote Brexit and you're going to get £350 million with the National Health Service and we're going to stay in the single market and we're going to stay in the customs union. And then we come out of those things and we don't get the money for health service. They say, well, that was not what it was ever about. It's about a new set of lies that we're going to tell you right have you met um putin i have yeah what was he like quite a few times well i met him i've not met him probably since i don't know 2003 so that's what 20 years has he got kids and has he got a book out that you might want to i'll find out he

has got kids and i'll tell you what i'll you, as we're talking about parenting, my kids have met his kids. Have they? You've had a play date with Vladimir Putin. It gets worse. They've actually been on the London Eye with his kids. And this was only last week. They've been on the London Eye with Vladimir Putin's kids. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, so what was he like? He was very different to what he is now in some ways, but you can see that he's still the same person. And I think the truth is that we slightly fell for this idea because we wanted him to be different and because he knew that we wanted him to be different. I think he came across as being different.

But I think that where he's changed I think he genuinely was trying to sort of be more oriented towards the west to internationalism and so forth but then I think he went through a corrupt phase then I think he realized that reform is very very difficult without being autocrats in his country and and he changed and you know one of the you've obviously thanks for reading winners but if you'd read my diaries you'd know that i've met vladimir putin many times i'm not reading your diaries alistair i haven't got that much time mr c come on okay and if he's not reading who is because he's like number one fan i'll miss to see over there yeah no that's my number one fan's not reading that's a bit harsh harsh. One of the most dramatic moments of the whole many dramatic moments I lived through with Tony was actually when Tony got invited out

to see Putin at one of his many, many datchers. I don't even know where it is because we flew to wherever we flew to. We were picked up by a helicopter. We were flown to this place in the middle of nowhere. And we had this lunch or dinner with Putin who proceeded to, I can't even describe it. It was like, I actually said in the diary that it reminded me of Fiona when she's really, really at the end of her tether with me.

And there's nothing I say, nothing I can say that doesn't just make her even more angry. And Peter was like that with Tony. And it was about Iraq. It was about our relationship with America. As we came out, David Manning, who was Tony's main foreign policy advisor, and he said, I've never, ever, ever seen anything like that in my life. And that was when we knew he'd completely, and maybe that was always the real him. Yeah. I don't know.

With like the stuff you were doing and like you're in like having a meeting with Putin and all this when he was in power with Labour, how are you dealing with looking after the kids when you get home? How do you switch off from that? Or are you still on the phone the whole time and you're trying to go to a kid's party and then you're getting phone calls and obviously you have to take the phone calls it doesn't stop it's 24 7 how do you how do you juggle that you said before like you come off the back of having a breakdown and things like that how do you manage that stress probably not very well to be

honest um look i didn't i did my best what i'd say i think my kids would accept that I did my best in that. And Fiona would accept I did my best in that. Apart from the job, Burnley games when I could, a bit of running and my bagpipes, I didn't do anything else in my life. I'm getting out. I didn't expect the bagpipes. I didn't expect you had time to do bagpipes and Burnley home games in that period of the 90s.

Burnley weren't even that good. But this is the thing about it. This is the thing about it. It is a good one for your parenting thing. Both my boys really like football. My oldest boy, he works in football, and Callum works with him sometimes at weekends and stuff. So I would drive them to Burnley games.

And I would think, aren't I a good dad? I'm taking them to Burnley Games when I've got one of the busiest jobs in the country. This was before we brought in the law about using your mobile phone in the car. Right. Caveat. I remember my Callum when he was in the throes of his alcoholism

and he was in rehab and all that and we'd talk to people. And I remember sort of him making this observation that it was quite weird at times. And he mentioned, you know, like, you know, we'd go to Burnley, he'd be driving for four hours, but he'd be on the phone all the time. Yeah. And so, and I think the other thing that,

I think Callum always found it quite difficult when we were out and about, is how many people just wanted to talk to me all the time. You know, you just talk to the van people and say, oh, let's go and have a chat. I'll tell them what I think about the health service. So I think I tried my best. I think I was very good with the kids as babies.

I loved being with them. I tried to spend as much time with them as I could. But you're kidding yourself if you're doing those sorts of jobs. I've got a very funny picture upstairs of Grace, of me trying to feed something to Grace when she's a baby while I'm watching Tony Blair on television. And Fiona took the picture. She just decided.

It was like, so I've sort of tried to give Grace proper attention, but Tony's doing an interview and I'm keeping tab. It's mad though, because it's a weird balance. Because if you want that kind of career, that kind of job, and that's what you've always wanted to do and you enjoy it, there are some jobs where you, it does, you can't balance it all. There isn't that work-life balance. And it's people trying to work out you know

how to do that without feeling guilty either way and stuff like that and how to balance it because there isn't a right or wrong where you should just be at home your kids all the time or you should be able to do it 50 50 or you know everyone's allowed to decide how they want to live their life without sort of judgment that's that's true but i but i do i did i can remember once going we're living the same house as i lived when we were back then, and I can remember one morning, I can't remember what the situation was, but there was something going on at work that was like massive. And Fiona and I had a bit of a barney about something or other,

and two of the kids were sort of letting off and, you know, it was all really kind of morning stressful, all that stuff. But I had to go out but i had to go out i had to go out and i can remember walking out the door thinking feeling really really bad and then getting to the end of the road and saying to myself i've got to try not to think about it yeah yeah uh but it's hard it's hard and you know you do no matter how much you sort of tell yourself you tried your best you know it's not good enough deep down yeah i can look at myself and say i was a better parent than a lot of parents were but i wasn't as good as a parent as i could have been i don't think you've talked a lot about like well

you've mentioned a couple of times like your son's alcoholism and you you stopped drinking as well didn't you when you had in the i stopped for 13 years. I do have the odd dream. I think I'm an addict and I was addicted to alcohol, whereas I think Callum is a full-on alcoholic, as it were, and deals with it really, really well now. How do you deal with that as a parent? Very, very hard. Very, very, very hard.

Worse, when I was sort of, you know, getting in the grip of alcohol, the thing is, when you're the person I was sort of you know getting in the grip of alcohol the thing is when you're the person you sort of you you you feel you know you're out of control but you sort of feel you're in control um and I was a function I was functioning perfectly well I was actually one of the reasons I had the breakdown was because I was I was like high flying, I was being promoted and headhunted for new jobs. And I think it was in that culture in the media where, you know, you were considered a bit weird if you weren't a heavy drinker. Yeah. And I got, and I came through it.

Whether I would have done it if I hadn't been, I was arrested, which was probably a good thing, and I ended up in hospital, which was a good thing. Fiona stood by me, which was the most important thing. I went back to do my old job. So I sort of worked it out. I never really got to the bottom of it. And I think my thing, I think I've been drinking to deal with a depression

that I wasn't even acknowledging. Whereas I think with Callum, it just became a kind of, you know, you just feel utterly powerless, you know. And you know it's happening. you know, it's happening. You can see it's happening, but you just can't do anything about it. And I'll tell you, you know, and one of the worst things that was moments in my life bar none was when I, I was, I don't see him so much now,

because I'm in quite good shape at the moment, but for a while I was seeing my psychiatrist like regularly. And while this was all going on, I was explaining the background and what was happening and what have you. And he said, well, I think you're just being too, you're being too soft. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, you, you really do have to show tough love. You cannot say to him, you can't live here. You can't come back come back if you come back drunk we're not letting you

in you can't say that and then when it happens you let them in yeah and you know you can't say if we find that you're stealing money from us you know we're gonna you can't say that and then not follow through on it and so one night um and it was in freezing 2, 3 in the morning or something. We're lying in bed. Doorbell goes. Callum's at the door. He's lost his wallet or he's lost his keys or some bloody thing. And I just said to him, you know the deal. You're not coming in.

And I shut the door. Oh, my God. And I just sort of, and I literally, I leant against the door, and I did that thing that you see in films, you know, where you literally slide down the door and I was like banging my head against my knees. And he spent the whole night thinking, you know, what if he falls in the canal?

What if he does this? What if he does that? He can't remember it. It's interesting. Wow. Wow. God. But anyway, eventually, then eventually we reached a point

where he agreed, well, he went we reached a point where he agreed. Well, he went into rehab once and that didn't work. That was a place in Ireland, which was very nice, but it just, you know, sometimes these things just don't work. And then, you know, he carried on and things were getting worse. And then eventually he went to this place in Scotland. He hasn't had a drink since. Amazing.

That's amazing. That must be, that's such a thing to go through as a family. Yeah, it was hard. It was really hard. And I can remember one night lying in bed and we just weren't sleeping, you know, you just worry about it all the time. I remember Fiona saying, you know,

we're going to have to harden ourselves. So what do you mean? I said, well, you know, we probably are going to get a knock on the door and he's going to be dead. Jesus, wept. I hadn't really confronted that at all god yeah god yeah it's amazing you know like you say no wonder you're proud of him to sort of you know go through that and then 11 years later still yeah still being sober but and still be and he's very active in

a and he sort of you know he's he's very kind of-minded and he's always on the lookout for other people and stuff like that. Unlike me, I can't go in pubs. I hate going in pubs. Oh, really? Yeah. And although I do have the odd glass of wine now, I've never drunk beer or whiskey since 1986. Oh, really?

Yeah, they were like my things and I used to drink, you know, beer until I got pissed and then I drank whiskey yeah that's proper like media in the 90s kind of drinking and I can't I can't even I can't even be near whiskey now I can't smell it I can't look at it I can't so and going in pubs there's well partly there's the whole thing about you know oh there's Cullman, let's go and have a go. Yeah, of course. Most people are incredibly nice, but you just need one. Yeah. But the other thing is I just don't like the atmosphere in pubs because I don't relate it to having a nice time.

I relate it to how did I used to spend so many hours every day. Yeah, because you're just an escape, wasn't it? You'd just be in there drinking to forget and then ploughing on the next day. Yeah. Cause you're just an escape, wasn't it? You'd just be in there drinking to forget and then plowing on the next day. Totally. Whereas Callum will go in the pubs to watch football with his mates. Right. He should get Sky. I wanted to talk to you about your competitiveness as well.

Cause you, you, I heard you on the Chatterbix podcast. So to come, you got ultra, ultra competitiveness or something? Maladaptive competitiveness. That's the one, yeah, where it's sort of like all-consuming.

And as you're getting older, is that coming down a bit, or are you still really? I think it's getting worse, actually. It's like yesterday, I was doing James O'Brien's podcast, because he's on my Mr. C list, obviously. Oh, Mr. C, can you come and talk to him about the news? His studio is next to the studio that the news agents are in, John Sopel, Emily Blinken, Neil Lewis,

who laughably present themselves as the rivals to the rest of politics, even though we're number one month after month after month after month. And I couldn't, I just, I was, I was pathetic. I was like, you know, I must be so hard for you. You work so hard. You do this five days a week and we troll out with a couple of episodes a week and we beat you every week. You must be so hard.

So, yeah, I am very maladaptive. Fiona, it drives her mad. It drives her absolutely mad. I do it in tiny, tiny, ridiculous things. Does it make you unhappy if you lose them? Like, I'd find that it's like, I was really competitive as a kid, and I really tried to kind of deal with it, because I found it wasn't really a route to being very happy.

Yeah, I think, well, no, it's not. Well, it depends what you find is happiness it's not a route to lots of happiness in the moment because you can set yourself a lot up for lots of failure but if i think for example people say the diaries that you haven't read a lot of people who read them real mr c fans yeah they will they will say to me i get the feeling we're very happy a lot of the time and i say well i wasn't happy a lot of the time because it was pressured and all that. But I'm very, very, very happy that I did it. Right, yeah.

And that to me is what happiness is about. It's like me and Fiona. I mean, I've mentioned Fiona. We've had quite a few ups and downs and, you know, times when I've been impossible to live with. But the thing that makes me happiest of all in life is that she has stuck with me for 42 years when I know a lot of women wouldn't yeah yeah that is happiness to me even though we've had a lot of and we have a lot we've we've had loads of great times along the way but we've had some really bad times and it's like but I'm so happy that we've kind of got through that that's that's happiness to me um

it's like you know with at the moment i get you know part of sort of like joking aside about the the podcast thing if i'm gonna if i'm gonna devote some time and energy to something i want it to have i want it to work i want it to be good yeah yeah and if you measure that by you know and to be honest when we started i had no idea it would be as big as it's become yeah the idea that would be the most listened to podcast in the UK would be a ridiculous idea. But once it happened, I'm like, right, I'm on it now. This is going to stay this way. Obviously, you want your children to be happy.

If your child comes to you and says... How dare you assume that? Your child comes to you and says, I'm the happiest I've ever been and I'm standing as a Conservative MP for the next election. How do you feel? Well, I feel happy because I know that's not going to happen. Yeah.

No, but it has happened now. It has happened. I find it difficult. If they're in your constituency, would you vote for them? I find that hard. I'd probably tell them that I voted for them. Or forget your ID. I forgot my ID.

No, shit, I forgot my ID. If it was a tight marginal, it'd be tough. No, I would find that. Look, although I say in the book, which you clearly don't want to talk about. We're talking about it now. I was going to talk about it. I do say, though, that there's this survey about the numbers in America now of people who say that they would be really unhappy

if their children married somebody who was not of their political party. It's gone through the roof oh really i guess a more realistic question what would happen if they came back with somebody who was a tory and said you know this is the person with whom your first grandchild is going to be made as what you mean they're gonna have 50 percent tory blood i mean you know that's quite hard no i wouldn't say that i wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. But, again, I'm not sure that would happen necessarily. I don't know.

Oh, I hope it does now. With your competitive thing, were you playing a child at Snakes and Ladders or you're playing your child at, I don't know, Snooker or Pool or whatever? Were you all right to throw a game or did you want to beat them? I was all right to throw a game up to the point where they might be able to beat me yeah if it was actually i do remember the time at which i actually started to realize that when we're out just kicking the ball about they were better than me yeah that's quite a bad moment well coming back to your book, But What Can I Do?, which is released on the 11th of May,

have you looked at who else is releasing a book that week? And one, are you competitive and want to beat them to get number one? Two, do you not even want to mention their name now because you would be giving them some free press? I haven't looked. I haven't looked. Do you want me to look? It's pretty hard to get to number one.

Not for us. Not for us. I imagine if you've got a really big podcast, it'll be really easy, but maybe your numbers align. Thank you, Mark. I'm just saying that we went to number one in the Sunday Times bestsellers

in the most competitive week, October, because we don't release a book in May like some sort of easy win to get in the charts I don't know okay well look I'll tell you what we'll do let's I haven't got another book in the pipeline but I'm going to put another book in the pipeline and can we agree that we publish

it in the same week? What like Blur and Oasis? Yeah not a problem I can't do one this year I'm off this year because we've both had two Sunday Time bestsellers two years in a row. But maybe give us a year off and let the other guys get a few books sold. Then we'll bang one out next year if you're up for it. Cool.

Anyway, the answer is I haven't checked who's got books out, but I would like to get to number one, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you will. But yeah, I've got high hopes for this one. High hopes. Well, good luck. And thanks for coming. Oh, the final question as well we need to do you. Thanks for coming. Oh, the final question.

Let Mr. W have the final question. Yes. I nearly forgot about that. Thank you very much, Mr. C. Oh my word.

Sorry. I just clicked. He is really, he actually is a bit of a fangirl, like proper fan boy of yours. And he's getting a bit flappy, which I'm quite enjoying. I just, I just enjoyed 1997 so much.

But anyway, I'm just a fan of the 90s. I'd be the same if it was, you know. Peter Andre. Peter Andre. I was the same with Peter Andre or Mr. A, as I call him. But you wouldn't have had the 90s if we hadn't won. It wouldn't have been like it was. No, exactly, exactly.

Well, you know. Because politics does make a difference. It's one of the key themes to my book, but what can I do? And the answer is we've all got to do whatever we can do. So I think if you love 1997, Josh, as you take your best-selling book and your number sort of five, six most popular podcast in the country out on the road, do at least have some sort of political messaging at the heart of it.

Yeah, we have done that. We just sold out an arena tour. Where are you playing your live shows, Alistair? We did the Albert Hall. Oh, okay. Palladium sold out twice in seven minutes. Oh, that's good, yeah. Harrogate next week.

Harrogate. Have they got an arena there? They've got a big theatre. I don't think. Just trying to see how competitive you are let's do the final question the final question is always the same

it's about Fiona which is that's a bloody hour there's my clock going it's been an hour yeah well you were two minutes late so I'm sure you can cope

you've only had that's because of the dog which you said was a great owner final question what one thing does Fiona do that makes you think you are an incredible parent I'm so lucky to be with you and what one piece of parenting does she do that annoys you but you haven't had the guts to tell her but were she to listen to this this is your chance to communicate it she absolutely it actually is the same thing in answer to both of

the questions okay is that because you're short on time or is it no no no no right she absolutely almost 24 hours a day will be thinking in addition to issues and challenges and problems that she might face about stuff that the kids might be able to deal with and we'll fix them if she can so for example rory at the moment is away in europe and fiona's just gone around to get the plumbing sorted. Right, I wouldn't do that. The dog, the dog. How many parents would take a dog on heat?

Yeah. Right? Have you tried going for a walk with a dog on heat? I haven't, no. I'll be honest, I haven't. And so, yeah, so she does absolutely everything for them and and so that that would also be my criticism yeah i think sometimes we should we should be less we should be less kind of hands on right yeah let them do it themselves yeah that is a lovely end it's been a joy alistair i know you've loved it um yeah and you've got a book out.

Don't call me, Josh. Don't call me Alistair. Sorry. Mr. C to you. Mr. C. Mr. C. But what can I do out on the 11th of May? Buy the book, read the book.

Cheers, Alistair. Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Good luck with the book. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Bye. No, it's all.

Love is joy to you. Mr. C there. Mr. C. Oh, you little run. I can't believe I did that. It's when I'm scared of someone. Also, you were in control of reading that message. I know.

You could have just said Alistair or Mr. Campbell. Even Mr. Campbell. Mr. C is worse than Mr. Campbell because you're trying to not look like you're talking to a teacher. Yeah, I can't. He, God, he scares me. He scares me. He is quite scary. I had a few little jabs at him to see how he'd react. Yeah, I thought you did well with that.

It was great. I loved it. And he took them well. He took them on the chin. He took them on the chin. I think, though, he might have just given me a couple of rounds and there was a couple of right hooks coming my way. But, you know, I managed to deflect it.

But, no, he's great. And I think it's interesting that, because obviously we're parents and it's 2023. However, the mid-90s being a parent was a completely different time. You had one of the most stressful jobs in the country that demanded 24-7, you know, working days, essentially. And it is very difficult.

I think it must be people listening that want a certain career, but there is sacrifice and it's about balancing if that sacrifice is right or not. Yeah. And no one will ever know, you'll never know, and everyone's different.

But I do, I find that really interesting about the sacrifices people make for their job and their family and what's right, what's not right, and what works. But I think the bottom line

is you don't ever really know if what you're doing is correct. Correct. Anyway, thanks for listening and we'll see you Tuesday. Bye.