Rotten Mango - #155: How He Got Away With Murder But Was Killed By Karma (Case of Mel Ignatow)

Episode Date: April 13, 2022

The Watkin’s family moved into their new home and their first project was ripping out the old, brown, ugly carpet. Rip. Rip. Wait, what is that? They found a hole in the ground. Strange. Inside that hole is a little treasure. Jewelry and a roll of undeveloped film. They had it developed and it showed 112 pictures. A series of photo sequences leading up to the gruesome torture and murder of a young woman. They called the FBI. The FBI could do nothing. They knew the killer but he was untouchable. He was protected by law. Why? Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rambles. Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are, whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay to description starting at $12.99 per month. Better being better boo.

Welcome to this week's main episode of Rotten Mango. I'm your host Stephanie Sue. And here's a very interesting, would you rather question? Would you rather go to prison for a crime that you did not commit, but everyone around you, your friends, your family, your loved ones, even the general public, Reddit, YouTube, they know that you're innocent, they know that this is not the right conviction, but you're in prison. Or for how long? Let's say like 10 years. Or would you rather kill someone? Be free, but everyone thinks you did it Everyone knows you did it, but you're free, but I kill someone But you also killed someone and you got away with it. So for the record for the record the FBI is listening

I will go to the present. Yes exactly same here. I mean, I think it's just Imagine you can never have a normal life if you killed someone and everybody knew that you did it. I mean, just even you killed someone period. How could you have a normal functioning life afterwards? Is it even a life worth living? Now, the walkinsons. This has nothing to do with that. Well, it all kind of comes full circle. The walkinsons had moved into a house that cold January. And the house, it needed a little bit of work. It wasn't the best house on the block, but it was their home. The first few months, they settled down. They unpack, reorganize.

They lay in bed, daydreaming. What if we tear down that wall? Make it more open. No, we should redo the whole kitchen. It could be brighter. For sure, we need to get rid of that carpet. It's such an eye sore. I mean, it's this dark chocolate brown color and you can't match anything to it. None's such an eye sore. I mean, it's this dork chocolate brown color

and you can't match anything to it. None of our furniture looks good. You can't even look at anything else in the room. It's overpowering. Mr. Watkins agreed. So the two of them, they take their time picking out the replacement carpet. And finally, in October, ten months after moving in, they get to installing it. They hire contractors who first start by removing the old brown carpet, popping up the metal, lifting up the carpet, popping up the metal, lifting up the carpet, and repeat. But there was this one part of the carpet that was extra stubborn. I mean, it refused to be lifted up.

The contractor starts yanking at it. I mean, that's, that's so strange. He pulled so hard, he almost flop flopped backwards and the carpet came loose. And there was this small rectangular hole. It was odd. I mean at first glance it kind of looked like a heating duct without the cover, but the placement was so bizarre who would put a heating duct there. And inside the tiny little hole, something caught his eye. It was like a shimmer. I should something shiny. He reached down, grabbed at it, pulled out a ziplock back. Inside, with jewelry, a ring, a necklace, a bracelet.

I mean, what is this? Some sort of makeshift, safe. I mean, a hiding place. But why wouldn't the owners take it before the walkinsons moved in? Strange. And a 35-millimeter, undeveloped film. He handed it over to the family and the walkincens, well, the blood drained out of their faces.

They knew that they had to call the FBI. The FBI developed the film and they saw 112 photos all in perfect condition. The picture started off with a young woman. It almost looked as if she was getting arrested. So her front profile picture, then her side profile, then her back profile. You could tell that she wasn getting arrested. So her front profile picture, then her side profile, then her back profile. You could tell that she wasn't happy, she was crying.

Then the next sequence of pictures, the same profiles were repeated, but this time the young woman was unclosed. Another sequence of photos, the young woman was tied to the coffee table. She was tortured. The FBI already knew the ending to this story, they knew that the young woman would end up dead by the end. They even knew the victim and the pictures. They even knew

the killer. But they knew that they could not arrest a single person for that murder. You're confused. I mean, so was I. Is it like the president of the United States? Is it some secret operation we don't know about? But have you heard of something called double jeopardy? Yeah. about? But have you heard of something called double jeopardy? Hmm, yeah. As always full show notes are available at rottonmingopodcast.com but there is an insane book on this case called double jeopardy by Bob Hill. This is like an OG true crime nonfiction book. I've, I've heard of this book over the years. It's incredibly in depth, it's thorough and there is a lot of good information there. I would just say that it gets super emotional at times.

You are going to leave this book angry. And that is in no fault of the author. It's just this case in general. There's no way you can even listen to this podcast and not feel this like burning rage of hot anger by the end because it's infuriating. So go pick up a copy and let's get into it. Double Jeopardy. It sounds like a game show. It sounds like one doesn't it? Most countries have some sort of double jeopardy law, but in the US it is the fifth amendment in the

US Constitution. Don't click out. I know it sounds boring, but just hold on. Essentially, the amendment states you cannot be tried twice for the same offense. You cannot be compelled to be a witness against yourself. You cannot be deprived of life, liberty, property, without due process of law. I mean, there's also like this other clause that's not shall any private property be taken for public use without compensation. Blah blah blah. The part that we're focusing on though is that you cannot be tried twice for the same crime.

I mean, this gets interesting because people assume it's like this gigantic loophole in the Constitution. So you can go and just fork shit up. I think a lot of people got that idea or that sentiment from a movie called Double Jeopardy. This was big back in the day. This was like the 1999 Gone Girl. Goes like this. There's this really rich couple, Nick and Libby, and they had what seemed to be the perfect family. They had this beautiful son that's four years old. They hire a baby sit around the weekends and the two of them, they go sailing, you know, rich people festivities. One morning on the boat, Libby wakes up. Blood everywhere. Her husband is gone, he's missing, he's not on the boat. I mean, it's a freaking boat, where could he be? There's only two options on the boat or off the boat in the water.

And Libby, she's holding a knife. She's confused like what is happening? She goes on deck and at that fateful moment the coast guard pull up and she looks wild. She looks like she just killed her husband and dumped him in the water for sure. They can't find Nick's body anywhere, but regardless, Libby is arrested. She's tried and convicted for murder. Everyone assumed she did it for the $2 million life insurance policy that she had on Nick, which by the way, Nick was found out to be under investigation for embezzlement. Another rich people crime. So she wants to get rid of the problem, aka her husband, and secure her financial future with $2 million. Well, one day, while on the phone in prison with her former babysitter, who is now the mother

of her child because remember, she's in prison, her husband is dead, the child is an orphan. So this babysitter adopted her kid, and she hears her baby in the back scream, daddy! And Libby realizes, Nick faked his death, framed her, and with the help of a lawyer plus fellow inmate, Libby gets paroled for good behavior, which I don't know how, because she just murdered someone, and she tries to kill Nick, because she believes she cannot be tried again for his murder. Double jeopardy. And you're like, wow, that movie is so crazy, that's some really wild parts. We get wilder. She hunts down Nick. He locks her in a coffin with a corpse inside inside a fancy mazalium. Anyway, long story short, she ends up shooting

the guy and killing him and living happily ever after because of double jeopardy. What exactly? You would be surprised at how many people thought that they could kill their ex-partners like this. But no, it's not that big of a loophole. You cannot be tried for the same crime at the same time with the same set of facts. Meaning, if you get away with stealing your neighbors Ferrari and you get acquitted,

that doesn't mean you can steal his Ferrari every single day for the rest of your life and never face legal consequences. I mean, the whole thing is very charge specific. Meaning, let's say you steal your neighbor's Ferrari and you get acquitted for it. But later, the prosecutors find blatant evidence that you lied about the event that you can be charged with perjury. You can still be charged with other crimes that you haven't been charged with, such as

maybe trespassing. Maybe you took the Ferrari and then you freaking trespassed on your neighbor's lawn. You could still be charged with that if you haven't been charged with, such as maybe trespassing. Maybe you took the Ferrari and then you freaking trespassed on your neighbor's lawn. You could still be charged with that if you haven't been charged already. For example, there was a guy that was arrested for the murder of his coworker. He shot him at a pizza joint that he worked at. The jury found him not guilty.

He was acquitted. Years later, he confessed to the murder. And there's not much the police can really do about it. Why? Because there's no new evidence? No new evidence. And he can't be tried for the murder and there's not much the police can really do about it. Why? Because there's no new evidence? No new evidence. And he can't be tried for the murder. I mean, he can be tried for something else. Now, there is an antidote though and I couldn't find any specific cases online, so maybe this is just a widespread story. There once was a man who was tried in court for attempted murder. He was found

not guilty. And he goes up to the lead detective with his ego up to the top and he says, I'm getting away with it. Because you know what, I did it. I tried to kill her and the detective was so happy. He was, oh, his smile spread all the way to his ears, not because he liked the guy, not because the guy got away with it, but because the victim had recently passed due to her injuries.

And now with this confession, they could charge him with murder, not attempted murder, but murder. So it's not double jeopardy. Now back to the house with the pictures, because this is all gonna make sense in a second, okay? The walkinsons had bought their house, you know, the one where they would replace the carpet.

They bought that house while the original owner was being on trial for murder. I mean, I think if they knew the extent of the house, they wouldn't have bought it, so they were moving in from out of state. And every day, since the day they moved in, there would be a flood of cars that drive by slowly, with their windows down, faces out just gawking at the infamous house. The walkinsons were sick of it.

Even the FBI came a few times, knocking on their door. Can we search the house? No, no, no, like everybody just leave us alone. You guys already searched the place twice. What is the point of another search? You're not gonna find anything. It was Brand spanking new when we walked in. It was clean. There was not even a box. There was nothing in sight. Everything was empty So no, I mean, what are the odds that the FBI would even rip up the carpeting and find those pictures? But had they, had they found the pictures during the first trial of murder, maybe the killer would face the death penalty even life in prison? It could have been easily the nail in his coffin, but it wasn't. The house belonged to a man by the name of Mel Ignato. Interesting guy, really. And I mean that in a mean way.

So he was born Melvin Henry Ignato, and he was born in Philadelphia. His parents were of mixed faith. So his dad was Jewish and his mom is Catholic. You're like, who cares? Back in the day, this was on Hurt-Off, who's actually quite scandalous. They called it mixed faith.

And the two of them, I mean, they were just looked at in public like what is happening, what's going on, but they they hit it off. They were both super religious, super devoted, they just had different customs, that's all. Eventually the Ignata's moved to be closer to the Dad's family, which by the way, Mel's Dad was a man with endless business plans. He opened up like 2,000 different grocery stores. First of all, that's a huge exaggeration. It was closer to 3, but all 3 of them failed.

Which like you got to give it to him for dedication. But they just all failed, and Mel had 2 other siblings, and he seemed to be the only one that was interested in helping his dad. Every day after school, Mel would go, stock the shelves, he would make local deliveries of groceries around the neighborhood. I mean, the guy works really hard As he got older he took on more important roles such as being a butcher at the grocery store But no matter how hard he worked no matter what he did the stores never did well

The ignado family would actually go bankrupt twice and Mel never knew what financial stability felt like Eventually David threw in the towel closed down all of his grocery stores, and he became a carpet salesman. Yeah, a bit of a full circle in the worst way possible. He was a carpet salesman till the day that he retired. Mel's mom though, she was a nurse at a hospital. She volunteered in her free time. I mean, she was kind of the better parent between the two. She was nurturing, she was level-headed,

she was stable, she was doing most of the parenting. In high school, everyone was encouraging Mel. But you got to play basketball. Mel, mel, mel, mel, you're so tall. You're like over 60 tall. If that's not a sign to be on the courts and shoot ball, I don't know what they say, okay, you got to play basketball. So he tried and he was really excited, but it ended horribly.

He was tall, but he was super clumsy and almost frail. The other players just pushed him around on the court like he was like a little slinky. They just pushed him aside. He just wasn't good. Everyone's like, oh, yikes, okay, maybe you can try something else like studying? What about studying? You're not really athletic, huh? And that didn't work out either, because Mel mostly made seas. Listen, I know grades don't define success, but good grades aren't necessary for some fields, okay? So it's almost comical to everyone

when Mel talked about how he was gonna be a heart specialist. Yes, a cardiologist. It's a bit much. They were like, with your C grades, who's gonna want you to operate on open heart surgery? Who no one that's not even safe But you would talk about it in high school Mel dated here and there and he was still kind of this like awkward teenager He also had this anger and not the typical anger that you imagine not the going out finding stray dogs and like picking them apart

I'm talking about the anger that might be relatable to a lot of us. He felt cheated. He's like, I had to grow up too soon. I had a frickin' putt meals on the table. My parents expected me to work. All of my friends, they were worried about girls and football games, and I was worried about if we were gonna make our mortgage that month. I feel cheated.

I feel like I had to grow up too fast, and I was just doubt these shitty cards. I didn't have time to socialize, that's why I'm so freaking awkward and nerdy is miserable. And Mel's main goal since that day forward was to grow up, make a comfortable salary, buy a nice card, and be somebody someday. He gets into the University of Louisville and he's just not that super active in anything like he would, he would get some part grades grades He joined a fraternity and he was obsessed with the paddle. Oh, yeah, the fraternity paddle that they give you He would hang it up on his dorm room wall, but that was it

He never went to any of the parties. He never went to any of the fraternity gatherings He just it was strange the way people describe him is the sky cared But only enough to do something half-ass So what I get from like reading about him a lot is, I feel like he's the type of person that feels accomplished just by talking about what he was planning on doing. So him talking about being a cardiologist was giving him that, like, dopamine, like, giving him that rush of, like, oh, I'm so successful. Like, yes.

And everyone's like, oh, yeah, believe in your dreams. Like, go for it. You would be a good cardiologist. He was getting all the satisfaction that he needed, so he didn't need to put in the work. That's just the vibe that he's giving. Like he always told these wild stories, and they were big. He said that he used to support himself through college, so he sold a ton of porn, but business took a turn when his business partner was shot.

It's just a lot of big, wild stories. I mean, nobody believed him, but it was definitely something. But he ends up quitting college to get married to his girlfriend at the time, Sharon Kippen. They actually knew each other from high school and they thought, why wait? Why wait for things to happen to us? Let's just get married, start fresh,

and do this thing together. So Mel drop sound. He gets a job at a called Rissalco, which is like a furniture place He's a salesman and he would stay with this company for over two decades now as a businessman I was a career guy. Mel was pretty likable. He had matured out of his awkward nerdy days He was dressing sharp. He was taking care of himself. He worked out. He ate healthy He got these nice strong-ish haircuts and while at work he was pretty level-headed He was the type of coworker that could take things and stride just a nice person to be around You know when the whole burning building was burning down

He'd be the one that's like all right everyone calm down like we can handle it He's like that guy and more importantly. He met his sales quotas every single month and And more importantly, he met his sales quotas every single month. And his entire focus was climbing that ladder. He wanted to make more money, more money, more money. He wanted to buy all the things that he had wanted his entire life, and slowly but surely, no matter how hard he tried, his true colors start peeping out a little bit. Oh yeah.

So Mel was only nice to those that he saw value in. So if you were higher than him, if you could provide him something, maybe not today, maybe tomorrow, maybe one day, he would be as nice as he could be to you. But anybody that was beneath him, he was so rude, moody, arrogant, he wouldn't even look at you. Eventually, he became generally rude to all women though. Why? Because his mindset was, well well how can a female possibly hurt me? Wow. Physically or in the workplace?

I know you want to see him crash in burn because that's me, but I'm sad to say that I paid off. By the mid 80s, Mel was earning about 150 to 200k a year. Calculated for inflation of course, but I mean that's a lot of money. and even Mel would complain to anyone that would listen Listen, I'm underpaid under appreciated and I'm sick of this shit He was just so pissed off at the world He he couldn't take it out on the world so he went home and he took it out on Sharon his wife Sharon was a few years younger and people described her to be this petite attractive attractive, dark-haired woman, and she had this very reserved personality. And together, the two would go on to have three kids and be married for 13-frippin' years.

It was a rough 13 years. All malacred about was money. His material possessions, nothing else. He almost never kissed her hugged his wife and kids. He never showed them love. Affection nothing. He would go out buy himself gold watches rings all the little fancy things in life the luxuries of life But he would force Sharon to penny pension only by the kid's cheap clothes that they could barely fit into Which fine nothing is wrong with that But he's not lacking funds. You know, the guy is buying himself gold watches. He makes a lot of money, he can afford to buy his clothes,

or he can afford to buy his kids well fitting clothes. Even when they went out to eat at like a fast food chain, Mel would only let them order the cheapest things on the menu. And he would get whatever he craved. What a weirdo, man. Yeah, and none of that even compared to how he treated his wife when his kids weren't around. He loved to be little her. It was his thing.

It was feeding his little ego. He would initiate for play. And whenever he felt Sharon was stimulated, he would stand up, look at her, and tell her, you're not good enough for me to continue. And walk out. If something went wrong in the house, something that was sometimes out of Sharon's complete control,

a light bulb would go out. She would come home with you minutes late because the kids were let out of school late. Sharon would need extra gas money because gas prices went up. Anything that mildly inconvenienced Mel, Sharon would be punished with quote anal sex. More like he sawdemized her. He would even physically assault her on two separate occasions. And the way that he tried to fix this all was by buying Sharon a two-carat diamond ring. But you're like, what?

But this is a huge deal for Sharon. I mean, all she wanted was like, Mel, please just show me some affection. Please show me some love. Show me something to give me a reason to stay. Like, this is a step in the right direction. And he would tell her, see, this is a token of my love, my sincerity. Do you know how much this ring is? It's like tens of thousands of dollars. Are you kidding? And it worked for a little while. Until Mel got straight back into being abusive. And any time Sharon tried to leave, he would guilt-tripper into getting

back with him. He would write her these intricate long detailed suicide notes that blamed her for his death. Wow. And then one day, Sharon drops her diamond ring and the diamond cracks. And she's like, oh shoot, like he's gonna kill me. This is, oh my god, this is the most sentimental thing that I own. She rushes to a jeweler who tells her, oh, well I see the problem. It's not a diamond. Oh my god.

It's actually not even like a moisonite or, you know, cubic's are called, it's like some sort of paste. I don't even know what this is. It's not even one of those. Oh my god. It's like $10, as well. Yeah, it's not even like a diamond replacement that's high quality. No, it's, it was like $10.

Wow. And she's like, what? Mel had been guilt tripping her, making her feel so guilty over a frickin' fake diamond ring. He always talked about how much diamonds caused and how much that shows his love for her, and the fact that he bought her one means that he's in it for the long- I want to punch this guy. So Sharon finally calls it quits, demands a divorce, and at first she demanded custody of the kids,

but Mel hounded her, harassed her, bullied her, until he got exactly what he wanted from the divorce, which was, full custody of the kids, the house, all the household items inside the house, the grand pre-car, all the personal savings, and belongings the two shared. Sharon's list, she would walk away with her old Pontiac, her own personal tracking account, a TV and a rocking chair. Oh, and she was ordered to pay a monthly $700 alimony to Mel. Just a preface, just some side note. Sharon was a stay at home mom. It's usually the other way. But Sharon, even with her new job, she didn't even make $750 a month. You're like, what? How the court... how the hell did the courts even allow this?

It seems like after 13 long years, Sharon was so exhausted, she was so traumatized, she just wanted out. She was willing to agree to anything and everything, to get out of this divorce. Afterwards, Mel, he didn't take it too hard, he bought a frickin' corvette, he started hanging out at singles bars trying to pick up young woman, which I'm surprised it worked. Because Mel was the type of guy who'd walk into a party, and he would put something up to your face. It was a dildo-shaped lollipop, and he'd say, well go on, suck it.

And he would go from girl to girl until someone finally licked it, and he would giggle. It's a dick on a stick. Like it. Haha, so funny. So good. The life of the party. Never heard any better. Can't wait to be around this guy. Like what?

And he was just always asking around to see if anyone was into group sex. Yeah, the guy had a thing for group sex, and I just want to gag. Now, during this time period, he meets a woman named Mary Ann at work. She was a receptionist for a risulco, which I don't know if I mentioned, but this company sells high-end furniture, high-end wood furniture. And she's kind of important to this story so, and this whole series of unfortunate events, I need to talk about her for a little bit. Mary Ann Shore was, she was something. In high school, she was very attractive, everybody called her Foxy Mary, and as she got older, it's hard to say that

she kept those good looks which sounds really messed up which sounds so rude and judgmental but trust me you're gonna hate this woman as much as you hate Mel there is just not much on Mary's childhood but in her early 20s she meets Mel who's in his mid 30s at the time and Mary and I was just struggling a lot she was struggling to hold down a job she was was super unreliable, she stole from her employers, which could be a reason she couldn't hold down a job. I mean she would steal everything. Cameras, watches, rings, money, even food, even bathroom cleaners, like a bottle

of Windex, she would freaking steal it. I guess maybe her job at Risalco worked out in the beginning because it's very hard to steal a giant oak wood wardrobe. Maybe that's the reason she stayed for so long, but watch your pants, watch your watch, watch everything else. But in walks Mel and Mary Ann forgets about everything, everything she could potentially pick pocket. She sees her prince charming and she immediately starts dreaming up their lives together. Mary Ann Ignato, that had a ring to it. Oh my god, what if he buys me a ring?

Oh my god, what if he proposes? They had just like made eye contact and she's thinking all these things. The feeling was obviously somewhat mutual. The two of them start dating on and off for the next 10 years. And in the beginning, Mel did try to woo Mary-Anne. He bought her watches, obviously not gold or anywhere near as expensive as his. He also bought her some cheap jewelry. And even though it was nothing to Mel, Mary-Anne loved it. She was still in her 20s, barely scraping by, still living at home.

I mean, she felt like a princess around Mel. She even traveled with him a few times to Hawaii. Cruises around the Caribbean. They took three separate trips to Florida. She was being whisked away! This is Prince Charming! He just opened so many doors in her life, and she felt so loved. He would also write her these little handwritten notes.

Oh, yeah, I know. You're like, aww. Okay, so he has some positive traits. That's what you're thinking. His notes were walking red flags. Yeah, they were literally walking across the table. It was bad. The letters seemed like they were not written by a man in his late 30s, but rather a horny

15 year old boy. He just wrote about all the ex-rated things he wanted to do to her. So I don't even know if I would call it a love letter. It was like an erotic thriller. You know what? Even if that still sounds nice, let me tell you. He had this one segment where he would write to her about how she still had fat. She was fat.

That's what he's saying. And it needed to be sexer-sized away. Her fat needed to be sexer-sized away. He would, yeah, he would write little jokes about truck drivers who prefer their own joysticks. He would write little jokes about dentists that could pull their peters better than they pulled teeth. But she was like, that is peak romance. And at work, Mel was bragging to his co-workers about banging the receptionist.

And he would always follow up with, but I would never marry her, because she's not good enough for me. She's just, there, she's a toy. There's no love, there's no respect, because I'm a man, and she's an undeserving woman. I just use know for me. You know, she's just, she's there, she's a toy. There's no love, there's no respect because I'm a man and she's an undeserving woman. I just use her for sex. Mel would constantly compare Mary-Anne to his first wife,

Sharon, which Mary-Anne hated this. I mean, who would want to be compared to your boyfriend's ex, right? She would just get so, so jealous. And during the weekends, when Mel was busy with work, he had Mary-Anne come and watch the kids. Yeah, because remember, he got full custody, he had some kids at home. So Marianne hated it, but she did feel closer to Mel.

She would come on over, pop on the couch, and completely ignore the children. She'd encoke, she'd enclean, she'd end up in the house, she forced the kids to do all of it. She never even talked to them, never made enough effort to get to know them. In fact, she would blackmail them. She would say, ah ahuh, uh-uh. What did your dad say before he left? Write, be pleasant to Mary Anne.

Exactly. Do you need a spanking? I didn't think so. There's a lot of tension in the house. The kids even noticed things were going missing from their rooms. Whenever Mary Anne was about, maybe sitting them, yeah, she straight up stole from her boyfriend's kids

But what do I know about morals? Sometimes the couple would break up and the kids would look out their window and they would notice Marianne Just standing motionless Staring into the house like a ghost like it was creepy. She was obsessed with their dad male She had tell the kids we can't even get married until you brats leave the house So go on move out and The kids eventually did in their late teens. After 10 years of this, Mary Ann was fed up. She told Mel, I can't do this anymore. Either you propose to me or I'm leaving, I'm done. And Mel said, okay then, goodbye. And Mary Ann stormed off thinking, just wait, okay?

Just wait a week, maybe two weeks because it takes a while to custom do a proposal ring and like an engagement ring, it takes time and then he has to plan the proposal, but he's gonna show up with the ring. I know he is. Instead, Mel went to jail for tax evasion. He went to jail.

He went to jail. Must be serious. Yeah. Yeah, so you don't really hear it unless it's on a big scale. Yeah. But it was multiple years of tax evasion just blatantly lying about his income. Yeah, he was sentenced to three years in prison, but he only served 30 days, which by the way, he didn't even tell his workplace. Nobody knew. They all thought that he was, you know, gone for a family emergency. When he gets out, Marianne feels really

bad. She's like, oh my god, this is when he needs me the most. You know, tax evasion charges are really rough. Maybe he will realize that I'm sticking by him no matter what, and he's gonna see how much I mean to him. Mel even admitted to her and others. I just don't really like you that much. You're kind of like an accessory to me.

Later, Marianne would be an accessory to the murder of Brenda Schaefer. A bit about Brenda. Brenda was born in Louisville, Kentucky. Her parents were John and S.C. and they were a bit older for parents. They were 37 and 39. My mom was 35 when she had me, so I kind of relate. So Brenda was the youngest of six kids, and the family was so cute, especially from the outside. I mean, one of the kids was adopted. John the dad, he worked as a whiskey taste or at a distillery. One of the sons was trying to be a police officer. Like, they just kind of had that picture

perfect American family. John would have to work these graveyard shifts. So sometimes he would get off the bus near their house, and the kids would be waiting near the bus stop to go to school. So it's like, you know, it's kind of sad, but it's also kind of cute and enduring that they're all working so hard. The kids also got along with their parents, especially Brenda and her mom. So a little backstory. I see the mom had a pregnancy before Brenda and it was a rough one. Her baby died in her uterus and I see starts getting really sick. The doctors tell her, we need to induce you.

Like, you're gonna die unless this fetus is out of your system because this fetus is dead. Now SC being super Catholic, she thought that induced labor essentially means abortion. So she starts panicking on one hand. If she didn't induce herself and she died, her children would be without a mom. But on the other hand, if she induced herself, she would be going against her faith. In the end, she did not get induced. She had a stillbirth at home.

The fetus was already decomposed by the time she pushed it out. It was a miracle as she survived. Now, there was a lot of trauma that she had to deal with after this event, and a year later, she gets pregnant again. With a baby girl, Brenda. I mean, I think this whole pregnancy helped S.E. Heal emotionally, but she became attached to the hip to Brenda. I mean, not that they had much of a choice.

The family of seven lived in a two bedroom house. It was cramped. John kept saying, well, the kids are going to move out soon, so I don't want to get a bigger place. Just to give you a reference, the oldest already moved out and the second oldest, the oldest in the house at this point, was 13 years old. Like when is she gonna move out?

I just, I wanna ask. So then he waited until she turned 18 to finally get a bigger place. Now, I think the reason that people were confused by this was because at first it wasn't finances that was stopping them. It didn't seem like that was the reason. He just didn't want to move.

It was kind of weird. Now the family moved into a larger house about nine bedrooms, on a beautiful quiet street with a beautiful backyard. Brenda loved it there. She was just in heaven. She was the baby of the family. The only ones have brown eyes and they were huge. When they looked at you, it was hard to say no, especially

S.E. I mean, she took her relationship with Brenda to the extreme. I can imagine she lost a baby before Brenda. She's probably terrified that something that is going to happen to Brenda. This is her baby. She was constantly afraid. She's constantly on the lookout for where Brenda is.

Even when Brenda starts going to school, S.E. gets a job at the school cafeteria to be close to Brenda. And Brenda doesn't mind. At least not for now, she's young, she loves her mom, she wants to be with her all the time. But of course, when she hits her teenage years, love or not, mom or not, she's trying to live her own life. Essie would never approve, but Brenda learns how to

sneak behind her back. Here's a list of the wildest things Brenda did without us knowing. They consisted of, when Brenda's friends would come over, they would smoke cigarettes in her room. Scandalists. Brenda would lie and say she's meeting a few girlfriends, but she would sneak to the movie theater, meet a boy, and make out with him in the back. Wow, wild. All the very normal things, okay, that's what I'm trying to get at. Like these are very normal high school things.

In fact, Brenda's friends made fun of her for being so tame. Sure, she would sneak off to date boys, but she was still very firm on abstinence to marriage. She had all of these list of things that she wanted to check off in a future husband. She was a little bit more naive than her friends as well. She had a ton of insecurities that were relatable as a teenager. She felt like her hair was ugly. She wasn't skinny enough. She wasn't fun enough. She wasn't wild enough. And then one day, summer break.

16-year-old Brenda and her good friend are tanning near the river. And these two guys pull up in a boat. One of them was 19-year-old Pete Pelt, what a name. Pete Pelt. He instantly liked Brenda. She was beautiful. She looked like a movie actress and he's like, hey, I'm Pete. I graduated high school and now I'm working as a police dispatch and I'm trying to be a police officer one day. Now the book mentions that he wouldn't be because he was too short. I don't know what that means. I didn't know that there was a height requirement, but apparently he was just as tall as Brenda. Listen, I don't know. I don't know why the short kings are not allowed. In the police academy.

So he's like, can I take you on a date? Why would you break into these apartments? For money, for drugs, whatever was in there. Why aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this? No, who's gonna catch us? What a police. It was the height of the crack era, and instead of locking up drug dealers, some New York City cops had become them.

I would suit up in my uniform and we're going to want some drug dealers, and I know how to do it really well. This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal in NYPD history and the investigation that uncovered it all. Did you consider yourself a rat? 100%. I saved my soul just like everybody else does. Listen to and follow the set, an Odyssey originals documentary podcast series available now

in the Odyssey app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. I'm not a big guy, man, but I love being that dirty mother f***er. Now Pete was Brenda's first and only real high school boyfriend. Like not just a make out in the movie theater but a true boyfriend. And the fact that Pete was 19, Brenda is 16, there was a bit of a maturity and a power difference. Pete very quickly became super dominant in the relationship, like he's calling all the shots.

He's incredibly possessive, he just took over Brenda's life. He wanted to dictate when she could see her friends, who she could be friends with, what she could wear, I mean everything. Right after Brenda graduated high school, he proposed her. I think she really liked the idea of being engaged. She would go around and she would flaunt her ring. People said Brenda would sometimes lift up her left hand with her right hand as if her ring weighed her down, as if her ring weighed 20 pounds. And Brenda's family, they were conflicted on how to feel.

I mean, they felt like she was way too young and they wanted to support her decisions, but, but okay, you know what? Yeah, they're just gonna support her. So the couple set a wedding date and everything, but it had to be pushed back because May of that year, something really terrible happened to the Shaefer family. Jack Shaefer, Brenda's 28 year old brother, he was working as a police officer when he was killed on the line of duty. It was brutal, it was heartless.

So let me explain, Jack loved his job with every fiber of his being. He loved keeping the town safe. He was devoted to all of it. The night of his murder, he was with a new partner named Wilbur Hayes, and Wilbur was definitely a bad cop. Like he was a horrible cop. Just, he was the poster child for police brutality and he had a reputation of being aggressive. And just a month earlier, there was a black 18 year old kid who came at him with a screwdriver. Now, am I saying that's okay, absolutely not, am I saying that's not terrifying to be on the receiving end?

But this officer who is trained to protect the people, shot and killed the kid. And after that incident, Wilbur was getting death threats. He was getting requests from the black community to have him resigned I mean this with all of his other track records. It wasn't just this one incident It was really clear that Wilbur was a raging racist So that night Wilbur and Jack they're not even close are patrolling a predominantly black neighborhood and Wilbur's driving and He starts slowing down near these three teenagers. So we had 22 year old Narval Jr. Tinsley, 17 year old Michael Tinsley and their friend 16 year old David White. I don't even know what this means

But it was said that they look like they're carrying weapons, which like what does that even look like? Do they just have like a gun up in the air? I don't know and they were though So when they see the cop car they throw their guns into the tall grass, but it was too late Wilbur was ready to stir things up. He parked, he gets out and he immediately starts arguing with them. He's like, I saw what you did blah blah blah. He pushes Nervell up against the car very aggressively again, not warranted, not necessary. Even Jack is not agreeing with this. Like he is not supporting this type of police behavior, but this triggers 17 year old Michael. He's seeing his brother get manhandled by a police officer.

So he grabs a gun from the grass and he fires three shots into Wilbur's head from the back. At this point, Jack, who does not condone any of this and actually didn't even condone Wilbur pulling over and being so aggressive with the three kids, he comes out to save his partner's life or at least try to. And Narval, the one that was, you know, being hurt by Wilbur, he grabbed the gun and shot Jack twice in the head, close rage. David White didn't participate in any of the shootings and he actually begged Narval to

not shoot Jack. He kept saying Jack is one of the good ones. He's a nice cop. But Narval shot him anyway. So the three put Wilbur's body face down on the rear floor of the car, drove it into an alleyway, Jack was then placed on a mattress and dragged 400 feet into a different alley.

It was said that Jack did not die instantly and it was a very painful death. The brothers were arrested and a very strange twist of fate, if I can call it that, Jack's brother Tom Schaefer ended up meeting the widow of Wilbur Hayes at the trial and they ended up getting married. Yeah, so I think they found a connection in their grief and their loss. But this event, I mean, it shook up the Schaefer family. How could it not? Brenda, especially, she had been so close with her brother and she just valued his opinion and advice and now he was gone. So she postponed her wedding for six months so she could try and just focus on herself.

Pete fondly remembers after they got married. The first few years of his marriage with Brenda, he said, you know, she just had this warm loving way about her. She was painfully shy at times, reclusive almost. But I thought the longer we were together eventually she would open up, right? Wrong. The main problem for us was sex. Brenda liked snuggling, she liked kissing, but she wasn't comfortable with sex. She always seemed nervous, a little embarrassed, she'd never feel comfortable exploring her sexuality, just it was almost rare when we had sex. Whenever I tried to talk to her about it or wanted her to see someone,

maybe we could go see a marriage counselor together. She would just passionately refuse. Brenda would later tell her friends, I just don't feel like I'm sexually compatible with Pete. I feel like his needs in mind don't match, I don't know. Now it is suspected that Brenda was never sexually abusive or traumatized, so potentially it's just her being super sheltered and conservative and being raised that way. Maybe she was raised in more of like a shame-oriented background, I don't know,

but she was just very uncomfortable and this is gonna exist throughout her life. So while she's married to Pete, Brenda's mom Essie gets diagnosed with lupus. And Brenda makes it her priority to take care of her mom. I mean, she's so inspired by this, she actually wants to be trained to be a nurse's aid and Pete did not like it He felt like she should be staying home Focusing on them when she's out there chasing a career which made him feel like you're doing too much for money You're doing too much for material things. Oh, and then there was the party problem Whenever Pete wanted to blow off some steam

He would go to these parties with his friends and as soon as anyone in the room starts drinking or smoking or even swearing, Brenda would tug on Pete's shirt and say, let's go home. Please, let's just go home. I don't want to be here. So the two of them, they were very different, and it just wasn't going to work out. So they break it off after four years of marriage.

It was a hard decision. I mean, Brenda was raised religious. Her dad even told her, you made your bed, you need to stay there and straighten it out. You cannot get a divorce. But she couldn't do it anymore. So she divorced Pete, and it took her a long time to recover. When she finally got back to dating, there was kind of a new trend. She seemed to like older guys that were financially secure. Now a lot of people would say that she was hungry for money, but I think that she was being practical.

And you know what? Maybe she was tired of constantly budgeting. Who are we to judge? She starts dating a few guys here and there, focusing on other relationships. She made a best friend named Joyce. They worked together and she always talked about her life with Joyce. Joyce said, you know, brand of an interesting one. Her idea of fun at the office was not, was a happy hour, was not gossiping, but was to jump

up at the end of a 12 hour shift and yell, I love my job! And Joyce is like, what? What are you saying? Sometimes she would write Freddy's butt on the receptionist sign and she'd and everyone would struggle. Have you guys seen Freddy's Buds chart? What room is Freddy's Spud in? Wait, what doctor is the sign to Freddy's Spud? She just thought it was hilarious. It's just like really innocent fun.

Like truly she's an innocent girl. I don't know how else to describe it. It seems like with age she didn't get jaded. But her insecurities really started to get stronger during this time. She felt a lot of shame from the divorce and she just wanted to work on herself. She got a rhinoplasty, she got a breast augmentation. There was just a lot of societal pressure from everyone and everywhere. Joyce even said this was during a time where people would even put on makeup just to walk outside to get the mail. Like women were expected to be perfection every second of the day. I'm sure this is like around

the time where the women were expected to stay home but put on a full face and where their cute little dresses and heels and while they cooked in are like that time. I know. Crazy. I know. You've never seen that have you. Joyce didn't get it though. Brenda was beautiful. What did she need all of this for? Anyway, Joyce and Brenda, they decide to head to Miami for a girl's trip. And while at dinner at TGI Friday's, Brenda runs into a guy named Jim Rush. Jim is in his 40s and Brenda's in her 20s, and he's the successful dentist.

He wants to take care of Brenda financially, emotionally, mentally, physically, everything. He would give her these cute handwritten cards. No, they were actually cute, okay? They were not mel, ignado. These were gym rush cute, they were actually cute. He would rent an entire billboard sometimes I would just say, Brenda, there is not enough room for me to express all my love for you. Gym.

So cute. He would whisk her away on these lavish trips to Florida Hawaii. And you know, Brenda's family loved him. They were together for eight years and they were considering marriage. So what went wrong in this seemingly perfect relationship? Lots of things. Jim was an alcoholic and not in the violent sense but in just the unhealthy sense. He would get drunk and fall through his glass coffee table. He would trip and fall in public and in addition

to that he smoked and gambled a lot. He was always nice to her, he always loved her, he always respected her but Brenda hated it, she just doesn't like this type of environment. She wasn't perfect either though. Jim complained, Brenda you're too reserved, you're too stoic. I feel like I have to pry information out of you. I, I never know what's going on inside your head. I don't know how you feel about me, nothing. I know nothing. How do you feel about our relationship? I don't know. Our future. I don't freaking know. You never talked to me about anything. But yet you're in control of everything. He wrote a letter to her and he said, you just act so cold, so analytical of me at times.

You're playing with my heart and it's not fair for you to have control over us. But he also wrote about how much he loved her and how much he wanted things to work out and she was just too cold to him. He ended the beautiful heartbreaking letter where he bared his soul. With PS, I'm seeing a therapist about my impotence. Which is not funny, but just from the letter structure aspect, it was a little bit out of left field. It's like PS, so I'm seeing my therapist about my balls.

It was just out of nowhere, okay? Like, really out there. So Brenda reads this letter, and she wrestles with her feelings. But I think she was just too scared to enter into another marriage. She just did not want another divorce. If she wasn't 100% confident, this marriage was gonna work, she can't do it. So in the end, Brenda ended it.

They're eight year long relationship, and she was struggling. It was not an easy decision. Joyce, who's watching this, who's her best friend, she just is trying to do everything to cheer her up, and then she gets the genius idea. Hey, so the guy that I'm seeing Bob, he's got this friend and he's nice, he even has his own boat and you know what they say, to get a verboi you have to get under a new one.

Do you want to go on a double date with us? I, I guess, okay, I don't know if I want to, you know what, you're right, like it's not even a date, it's just just we're hanging out, right? Right. Okay. Fine. Fine. Count me in. So Brenda reluctantly agreed. And that's how she met Mel. And first impressions were great.

Mel was definitely upper class for Louisville. He had a stable career, a well-paying job, a boat. He went on business trips, he drove a Corvette, Corvette. He owned his own house. It seemed like he was the perfect catch. Sure, he was much older. He was in his 50s. But Mel's main selling point was his remodeled bathroom.

I know. OK, he bragged about it. He thought it was the peak of his life, the height of his everything. The whole bathroom was pink and beige, along with the toilet paper. So back in the day, colored bathrooms were the thing. Like these white bathrooms, these modern concrete bathrooms,

ugh, disgusting, you have no class. If I went over to your bathroom and it was white, I would spit in your face. No, I wouldn't. But back in the day, colored bathrooms were all the way. That's about showing your personality. Your sink would be pink, and that's why if you go on Zelo and you look at Beverly Hills houses, a lot of them are not remodeled and

you will see a ton of pink bathrooms. A ton. Crazy. Yeah and so back in the day toilet paper would come in these beautiful pastel colors. Lavender pink beige. It started in the 50s when there was that trend right and the whole pink tiles, blue tiles, the tubs would be bright pink, towels would be coordinated, even the carpet. Yeah, there was carpet in the bathroom, would be pink. So why would you want white toilet paper to clash with your space?

So fun. Wonder what, would that come back? Yeah, it's not going to come back because doctors warned that the dyes are harmful to your skin and your butthole. So I mean, I guess if you want an itchy butthole. Okay. And he said alright, I'm still gonna order it. Yeah, and there were environmental concerns about the dyes being flushed, you know, and the whole bathroom design changed into a much more monotone all-white bathroom these days. So he had the purple,

he had the pink toilet paper and everything. So back to Mel's shit room. The bathroom was pink granite with a gold faucet, huge mirrors everywhere, an etched glass shower door, controlled lighting. I mean it was heaven. It truly was. He bragged nonstop that the remodeling cost him close to 50,000 dollars. I know. Even though Mel had a tendency to talk over everyone and he was 50, which is a lot older than Brenda, he also had thinning hair, a wide mustache, and glasses. Everyone kind of found him in During. He almost looked like an awkward but super cute English professor. Like a safe choice. If you were to present him and maybe a fellow 30-year-old, I think all the girlfriends would say,

you know, Mel is the safe choice, obviously. He's the one that has a stable career and, you know, he doesn't look that heart and ripped and jacked, but he looks cute! That's what they would say about Mel. So the first double date, it seems to go super well. Mel even invited Brenda for a follow-up date, and she said yes. She told Joyce, I'm not physically attracted to him, but he has this pleasantness about him. I like the way that when I'm talking, he's focused entirely on me, which is nice. And it doesn't hurt that he is financially secure. Again, Brenda is not money-hungry, but she came from a modest background. She's 30, so of course she considers a potential future partner's financial ability. I mean, that's only smart.

And Joyce was ecstatic. At first. Then she starts learning about Mel. And she just didn't like him. The guy was weird. He bragged all the time about working for the CIA. Listen, anybody ever tells you they work for the CIA. Don't believe them. Even if they actually work for the CIA, who cares? Okay, just be like,

shut up, you little liar. Big or reflect. Yeah, yeah, you're more dangerous. Stay away. Okay, you just, you just gotta be like, yeah, get out of here. He boasted about having $300,000 of cash hidden in China. He also talked about his sexual escapades. Were China in the country China or in the China China? In a plate. Yeah. No, I'm kidding. In the country China.

Oh. He also talked about his sexual escapades in China with sex workers. Like, he bragged about it. I will never understand. I mean, the guy is a walking red flag. She felt so strongly about this joist old Brenda. Brenda, if you don't stay away from him someday, I'm gonna read about you in the paper.

But what could Brenda do? Mel came out so strong and incredibly aggressive. He kept pushing her for more dates and he was just really selling himself. Which by the way, Mel sold products at work, not with his charm nor his ability to build rapport. No, the guy was one of those salesmen that would just hound you. Hey, I'm calling a follow up with you, but he was like every two seconds. He's following up every two seconds. There was a follow up to a follow up to a follow up to a follow up.

And you would just get so frustrated, so annoyed that maybe you just bought whatever he's selling. You're like, get out of my life. Stop annoying me. You block your number. That was Mel. So he did the same thing to Brenda. He pushed and he pushed until she agreed to another date and he starts showering her with gifts, an opal ring, a silver shadow fox coat, and he starts bringing Brenda around

all dressed up bragging about her. It got weird really fast. He started carrying a picture of Brenda in a bathing suit in his wallet, and he would show it off to his co-workers. Which is like, I don't mind you having a picture of me and my bikini in your wallet, but like if you're introducing me to someone for the first time,

I wouldn't want that to be the picture. Like a good headshot, maybe a cute little couple's pick when like wearing a garden, you know? But his co-workers, they were hyping him up they're like holy cow she's so hot like you gotta you gotta tie her down and with that encouragement from all of his male colleagues who were googly eyes at her bikini picks he decided he was gonna propose to Brenda after just two months of meeting she was not ready but he pushed and he pushed and he would show up to her work with flowers

and gifts and he bought her this $20,000 engagement ring and she finally accepted after enough begging. She really only said yes to get him to stop. I don't even consider them engaged because she refused to set a wedding date. She did not have an engagement party. She also actually avoided wearing the ring in public. I mean, it was just a lot. She really just said yes so he would stop pounding her in the meantime Mel gets fired from his job. Okay, I don't know

I don't know if it's him flaunting the pics of his girlfriend in a bikini Cuz they charge the thing. I don't know if it was his non-stop cocky attitude I don't know what it was but he was fired after 23 years and Mel was pissed He had gotten comfortable with that salary He liked his ranking, and now his entire life felt like it was in jeopardy. Yes, jeopardy. It felt like after being fired a switch flipped in Mel, and the relationship took this very toxic turn. So let's run you through the list. Firstly, Mel started blaming Brenda for his job loss.

He legitimately tried to tell her it was because she played too many games, rejected his proposal too many times, so he had to spend more time in legitimately tries to tell her is because she played too many games, rejected his proposal too many times, so he had to spend more time and energy trying to get her to say yes and win her back. And he should have been spending that time and energy on work. So it's your fault. Then he tried to tell her, it's your fault,

so you have to make it up to me. You own me. How should you make it up to me? We'll buy anal sex or group sex. Brenda would later tell her friends, all Mel talks about is sex and himself. So back to the list, Mel would yell at her to loosen up and told her she needs to get better at sex, and his great advice on how to do it was learn to relax and enjoy it.

Sorry, maybe it's just not enjoyable, you weirdo. Here, I can help you, and he would force Brenda to watch porn and smoke weed. Which she hated drugs, and when that didn't work, you would force her into taking these prescription pills. She was traumatized from this. She would wake up, not remembering what had happened. She'd be completely naked. I mean, imagine how traumatic that must be.

It was terrifying. And she told them, I don't ever want to do that ever again. And he would just laugh and say, I can get this pill in you somehow if I really want to. I mean, the rest of the sentence goes unsaid. Or you can just comply with my demands. So do as I say. Anytime they had dinner or hung out or spent time together, he would, you guys stay, talk about anal sex or group sex. Brenda struggled with regular sex as it was, and now he kept telling her about this attractive couple that he knew that wanted to do group sex with them, and it was just so intense. So she would shut him down, and he would just say,

or I guess I could just tie you up and do whatever I want. And he would laugh and he'd say, oh, I'm kidding. But eventually, it's just another thing that he annoys her with. Please, let me just do it. Let me just once. I'll stop talking about everything. I'll never bring it up again if you just let me do it once. She agrees. And he ties her up so roughly that she starts crying. And she says, can you please just loosen it a little bit?

He did not. Instead, he raped her. He also tried to convince her to take these hallucinogenic drugs, shrooms. He tried to convince her to take shrooms. And on one occasion Brenda woke up with this stinging sensation and her nose and her throat. It was painful. It was like someone was just putting a bowl of straight acetone in front of her face. She was in Tennessee in a hotel room with Mel, and she had this sneaking suspicion that I was him.

I mean, all this talk of drugging her, wouldn't you have that suspicion? She pretended like she was asleep. She opened her eyes a tiny bit, and Mel was standing over her with a cloth in his hand. So she's like, okay, I'm going to watch and see what he does. He inches closer, closer, puts it up to her face. And she freaks out. She backs up. She's like, what the hell are you doing? Oh, wow. You're awake. Nothing. It's just something that I brought back from China. I thought you could use it. You've been so pent up recently,

and this is gonna help you relax. It's gonna help you fall asleep, don't worry. I don't want that. I was already asleep, what are you talking about? So she freaks out on him. And when he's not doing that, yeah, the list goes on other than just trying to drug her. He would call her at random points in the day,

and if she didn't pick up, he assumed the worst. Not that she was in danger or that she was dead, but that she was cheating on him and disrespecting him He would freak out even if she didn't pick up her work phone. He would freak out He fully controlled her life. He wanted to make sure that she met her nightly curfew of 10 p.m She's a full-grown woman. This is a full-grown man. We're talking about and not her father He would freak out if she didn't meet her curfew. Oh, and to add to all of that, he had this thing about being incredibly spotless in the house.

He would explode on Brenda about the tiniest little things. If she didn't tear the toilet paper evenly across the roll, he would freak out. If the water faucet handles were not in an even position, he would freak out. And last but not least, he wanted full control over her finances. He wanted to know all the assets she had. He wanted her to write down every single jewelry piece that she owned their value, and she's like, why?

Well, I just wanna make sure that you're insured for everything, you know? These are not just the pieces that he gave her, but like her entire collection. He wanted to know how much money she had. He even, okay, this one's odd to me. He even wanted to know where her receipts were for her breast augmentation and her rhinoplasty. Huh, what does that even mean? I don't know, he's like, where do you keep your receipts?

I want to know. He wanted to know and control every detail of her life. I mean, Brenda thought that this guy was following her home from work. She told Joyce, it's like he wants to own me, mind, body, and soul. So she tries over and over to break up with Mel, but he would just freak out, start crying, get on his knees, how could you leave me at a time like this? I just lost my job, I need you the most right now. And Brenda would feel guilty, take him back. Brenda knew she had a problem. She even read a book called Women Who Love Too Much, and she related to the girls who were taught to go along with everything since they were young.

They were taught to comply, even if they don't like it or agree with what's happening, even if it doesn't make them happy. They were taught to not make naves or noise. They were taught in trying to be submissive. And she identified with that, and she was exhausted from this relationship. Friends said it started to show up physically. She started having these intense headaches, these stomach problems. She was constantly irritable. Her hair was unkept. Her, she wasn't rest well and this was so unlike Brenda. So with this knowledge, Brenda tries to do everything she can to distance herself from Mel. I think what's really sad is this is a situation where she genuinely sees everything. She sees the danger and she's trying and he will not let her go She even tries dating Jim. She's like, okay, you know

I want to reconnect with my ex and she's still straight up told him listen I'm still with Mel and I'm trying to break up with him and he won't let me break up with him Do you mind waiting for me? Jim's like I don't mind. I've been waiting this whole time. I'm just glad we're talking again Jim's a really I don't mind. I've been waiting this whole time and just glad we're talking again. Jim's a really nice guy, it seems. So Jim would come over and hang out with Brenda and I see it. It was just like all times again. And then September 21st, Jim gets a call.

Hey, it's me Brenda. I finally broke up with Mel. I did it! I know, it's final. Do you want to go out to celebrate? Yes! I can do this weekend! Okay, perfect.

I need to see Mel one last time to give back his ring and some other jewelry and we can finally start fresh. They would never go out to celebrate because Brenda would be murdered. September 25th Brenda hops into the car and she's not happy about seeing Mel one last time, but she wants to get it over with. She wants to feel free again. She kisses her mom by and she packs up all the jewelry that he had ever gifted her. She leaves around 2pm. Now hours pass. 4.

Then 6. Then 12. Then around 3.30am. Essie starts getting concerned like where the hell is Brenda? She can't get in contact with her so Essie calls Mel. Hey Mel, this is Essie. Brenda's mom. Have you seen Brenda?

I know that she is meeting with you today. Brenda? Oh, she looked like four hours ago. And then he launched into the most suspicious, overly detailed explanation ever. Now, I'm gonna breeze through this because it's just not pertinent to the story, but just to show you how suspicious this guy is, the mom asked, where's Brenda?

And he responded. Well, Brenda picked me up around 3 p.m. and I usually drive when we're together, but my quervet was having entire issues. So Brenda drove. She picked me up. We drove around for a little while, and then we came back home and, ooh, that was like, I would say like 11.30 p.m. and it was a long time we were talking a lot. Anyway, if she left right after she dropped me off, she would take Interstate 64, which is what she always takes, like she normally does. And that would mean that she would be at her house

by the latest 1145, but now I'm looking at the time it's like 4 in the morning. Oh, that's weird. Huh, she's not home. Should we be worried? Is she okay? As she was confused. She's like, okay, that's a lot of information,

but then it dawned on her. She's like, maybe Brenda went to go see her ex-jume. She's like, oh shoot,'s a lot of information, but then it dawned on her. She's like, maybe Brenda went to go see her ex-Jim. She's like, oh shoot, if Mel finds out broken up or not, he's gonna throw a fit, he's gonna make a scene, he might even try to punch Jim. So she decides to be quick on her feet and she covers for Brenda. She says, oh, oh, never mind, I just realized she's at her sister-in-law's house, actually. And all of a sudden, Mel goes, are you sure? And he seemed skeptical and panicked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's at her sister-in-law's.

Oh. Okay. And he hung up and he calls Brenda's sister-in-law like his Brenda there? What? No. Who said she was here? Is he? No, she's not here.

And he breaks down into tears and he says, I'm just so worried about Brenda. That's all. God, what am I gonna do? I mean, I guess you could call 911. Okay. So he calls Dispatch to let them know that Brenda might or might not be missing. He has no idea, of course. He's just a silly little dumb boy. And the Dispatch sends it over to the police,

who find an abandoned car on the highway. The car had a flat tire. The inside had been ransacked, even the entire car's stereo was missing. They look inside, they see what looked like blood in the backseat, it was Brenda's car, and the police were investigating it as a homicide. I think for a lot of reasons, the blood, the fact that it was abandoned, ransacked, there was even a partial print on the back of the car that looked like someone was using the car to try and get up, which you might do if you're in a weekend state, maybe you're injured or you're unable to get up on your own.

When the Sheafer family found out that the police are investigating Brenda's disappearance as a homicide, they hold an emergency family meeting. Most of them were talking to Essie about the strange phone call that she had with Mel. They were like, it was weird. He said that his car tire wasn't working. I mean, it was this long-winded explanation of why Brenda wasn't driving, was driving him around. It's just bizarre.

And then a knock on the door. Mel. The family opened up the door and parked in the driveway behind Mel. With Mel's Corvette, Corvette, the tires were perfectly fine. Fascinating. But you know what? You can get a quick fix. They let Mel in and he just, he starts kind of pacing. I feel really bad for coming on over here.

I hope I'm not interfering in any way. I don't want to interfere, but I just, I just needed someone to talk to. The shay first sit around and watch him and disbelieve really because Mel made it all about him. He said, oh my god, I can't believe this is happening. I just can't believe this is happening. They're there, Mel. I'm sure she's going gonna come back. I know she's gonna show up. Our sister always does No, she's not. I think she's gone. I think she's dead

It's just really bizarre. So everyone in the house at that point are ready suspicious. Yeah, the guy is suspicious The shafers wanted to ask Mel a million questions and so did the police So the police bring him in for questioning and right off the bat the guy is sending off all the alarms. He's babbling. No, it's bad. Like he went off on multiple tangents. I'll list a few, again not pertinent to the story, but just showing you how suspicious

he is. Mind you, the police are like, tell us about your day. The day that Brenda disappeared, just tell us about the day. And he talks about how much Brenda likes to drive. Normally, he picks her up in his Corvette Corvette, but not that day. Because the tires were making this worrying noise, and you know how Corvette's hard, you don't get them, because you want to save money on maintenance, saying that right, fellas.

Anyway, first we went to a restaurant, then we went to a boat show. But then the weather was so bad, we didn't even get on the boat. Brenda was not that fun to be around, if I'm being honest, because she was real depressed. You know, her mom has lupus, you know, about lupus. Yeah, you do. Anyway, she's depressed. By the way, did you find her car? What car?

What condition was the car in? Ah, do you guys have any leads? Any theories? No? Okay, back to the story. So then we go to the art fair, and then while we were there, we were like, nah, f**k the art. So we went to the mall just to go window shopping.

And we're like walking around, but we didn't see anything that we liked, so we didn't buy anything for like two hours. We drove back to the creek, we found another restaurant, but then decided, nah, we're not really hungry. So we kept changing our minds because the weather was so bad. So then we went window shopping at a different plaza and we bought nothing. And that's how we spent the entire day until 11.30 p.m. Brenda dropped me off and I made sure before getting out of the car to

turn around and say, drive safely, like I always do. And then I went inside the house and when I got back inside I started reading the newspaper and I'm like, oh you know, they send so many coupons in the mail or these days and I think I might have seen some food in one of them because I got hungry. I think I might have seen some like an ad for fast food. I found myself in the kitchen. Anyway, I couldn't find anything in the kitchen, so I decided to risk it all. I took my worrying Corvette Corvette to the Skyline Chili. You ever been there?

The food is mid, but I was in the mood for it. I ordered spaghetti and chili and a soft drink. Oh yeah, and they were playing some football on the TV. You guys like football? Oh, and you know what, really, this just pisses me off about the Skyline Chili. The waitress kept saying that I got a large soda, but the large looked like a damn medium. So we got into a bit of a heated argument. I just remember I was like

yelling at the waitress, she was yelling at me. She was like, no, this is large. And I was like, no, this is a medium. So anyway, I leave. I get home at like one 30. Yeah. I fall asleep and I wake up to a call from S.E. around four. Super detailed. So detailed and so what? Does that, what does that mean? There's tons of witness of war. But that's the thing. The officer looked at him and said, you realize that most of everything you told me cannot be corroborated by a single person. Because there's not one part he didn't buy anything. They don't have receipts to say, you know, it's just nothing. It's bad. So Mel is like, I mean, I guess that's bad. I guess I could be a suspect, but that's just the way it is.

Okay, Mel. So what do you think happened to Brenda? Listen, I'm not one point fingers. I'm not. It's just not my style. It's not my vibe, okay? But, but Jim Rush is really dealing with a lot of substance abuse. You know, Jim Rush, that's Brenda's ex-boyfriend. The guy he's just lost in life, lost without Brenda. Oh, and Pete, remember that one? Her husband. Yeah, I know they divorced like 10 years ago, but Pete never remarried. I think he never really got over her after 10 years. He loved Brenda, and he's probably following her around when she disappeared. And he ended it with, gosh, I just, I hate to say these things about people on a hearsay basis, but I just want to help get our Brenda back.

And he burst into tears grieving for Brenda. It was quite the performance. The police had no choice though, but to let him go. And they start asking around to Brenda's friends and family, and somehow the people that knew Mel, or just even knew about Brenda's dating life, they all mentioned a woman named Mary Ann. Like her name just kept popping up in the investigation as Mel's weird ex.

So the police decided to give her a nice little visit. And of course they're not going to give her an advance. They just, they love a good surprise. They show up at her house. They make her nervous. They stare at her. They, they never fill the silence. They want to see if she's going to squirm.

This would be an easy way to get information out of her. I mean, human psychology is terrifying because even if I were innocent, I'd be squarming. If someone doesn't fill the silence, like, hold on, let me give you a two seconds of silence. Yeah, my anxiety is through the roof. And they were right. Maryanne seemed visibly nervous, not as calm and collected and detailed as good old Mal. So, Marianne, what was your relationship with Mal like? How's your sex life? Oh, really good.

I mean, nothing kinky, no bondage, no attempt to give me pills or drugs or anything. You know, nothing weird. You know, I had very little contact with Mal since he started dating Brenda. You know that, right? In fact, the last time I saw him with Sharks and April or something. Okay. Now, the police didn't believe her. They believed her as much as they believed Mel, which was not at all.

I mean, they know the guy has foolish shit, but Marianne was the weaker link. So the police come up with this masterful plan. A.K.A. bully Marianne, that's their whole plan. No really. That's what they were going to do to her. So they sat her down and they screamed in her face. We know Mel killed Brenda.

We know you know about it. Brenda Schaefer was beautiful. She was beautiful and Mel loved her. He loved her and he still killed her. Your ugly and Mel doesn't give a shit about you. What do you think he's gonna do to you? You might as well be dead. In fact, you're dead.

What? Yeah. It was really intense. I mean, also, Who told this part? Who shared this part? In the book, the FBI did this. Yeah.

So, I mean, I guess you could call it investigative work. I get it. It's human psychology. It's what works, right? But it's just so what the fork. Imagine going to an FBI training class. And your whole lesson is like, demean someone, make them cry.

Imagine if you were an innocent, like traumatized. Traumatized. Yeah. Like if an FBI agent called me ugly and that you didn't love me, I don't even know. And they just kept screaming at her and Mary Ann Burst and sweat and she agreed to a polygraph test,

which she really shouldn't have. No, really, she should not have, because she flunked miserably. I mean, she pretty much only told the truth about her name. The police, they tried to turn up the heat on Maryanne's butt, they tried to make her squirm. They arrested her for two bad checks she tried to cash years ago. So something that they wouldn't have cared about at all had she not been involved in this. So Marianne was close to busting, but they just needed something, something to push her over the edge and they weren't there yet. So because of that, the investigation stalled for over a year. The police give up and they decide, okay, we just need to

indict a grand jury and see if they will charge Mel with murder. Mel shows up to court, gives a 4 hour long testimony, and it's just a collection, a series of tangents really. He admitted to the jury that he started having sex with Mary Ann again after Brenda's disappearance, and I don't know why this hurts my gears, because maybe because I know the guy is foolish, normally I love when people talk like this. But he's like faking it. He starts every sentence with, oh gosh, I don't know. Oh gosh, wow, it's been such a long time. Oh gosh, maybe it was like a year ago. Oh gosh, you know, I've just been going through a rough time

recently. It's just so fake. Like people who do it for real, it's cute, but like this guy's fake. And he would just say I'm grieving for Brenda. I'm in financial ruins. I have $26,000 worth of credit card debt. Sounds like a personal problem.

No income, it's hard for me to learn new skills and hold down a job. I'm getting quite old and I'm taking three. Oh gosh, maybe four heart medications for blocked arteries and I've got high blood pressure and cholesterol and I'm just sad, okay. I don't mind that the police are looking into me. I get it.

Everyone has a job to do. Shoot, I would look into me. But gosh, do I feel bad that Brenda isn't getting justice. They're not looking into the other suspects like Jim Rosh and Pete and that's all, you know, that's all I'm saying. Okay, Mal, we heard from one of her friends that you tried to drug her in Tennessee with a tissue with chloroform. You tried to put it over her face while she was sleeping.

Oh gosh, no! No, absolutely not. Oh wow, that's what the- Wow! I have bad allergies. I take shots for it and you know, I get stopped up in the middle of the night. Stopped up, meaning his nose is awful. And I take a little hanker chief or a Kleenex with me to bed.

And I'll just use it in the middle of the night. Well Brenda, she gets stopped up occasionally too. So she's sleeping in the bed and I hear her getting stopped up. So I put the cleanex up to her nose to try to kind of get the boogers out and while she's sleeping. Oh my god, oh gosh, they blew it out of proportion. I was just trying to blow her nose.

Yeah, the full grown man was trying to convince the jury that he put a rag over Brenda's face in her sleep for her allergies. And they were all just being drama queens. Did you kill Brenda? No, absolutely not. I did not kill her. I would not have laid a finger on her. All the while this is happening, yeah.

Mel is going to give you more X. Mel decided to find God. Yeah. I don't know why they say find God as if God's hiding from him. He might be. Mel's a horrible person. He joins a church. And he mainly uses it to, you know, use it as his very own Christian mingle, really.

Like all the women knew it was going on. They thought that Mel was creepy, but one of them was the very unfortunate object of Mel's desires. He was harassing her, winding to her, and he would say, I thought you were my friend. Why are you avoiding me? And then one time you just straight up tell her, is it about the court case? Are you avoiding me because of the court case? Why didn't do it? But let's just say that I did.

Let's say that I killed Brenda Schaefer. If Christ has forgiven my sins, why won't the state do the same thing? Why should I ever have to answer to the state if God Himself has forgiven me? The woman was too stunned to speak and she was terrified. She rejected him more aggressively for her own safety and Mel took to this by trying to take his own life. Yeah, so murdering

someone in cold blood, not traumatic, potentially being charged with said murder, not traumatic, being rejected by a woman from church, you hypothetically confess this murder to traumatic tragic. There's no coming back. And if I'm treating the subject in a not-so-sensitive manner, it's because I don't really think that he tried to take his own life. His mom panicked and called 911 and said, my son, my son, has taken a dangerous amount of value of manvodka and someone needs to come save him. The paramedics rush to the scene,

melds on the floor crying and bitching. He's like, this woman rejected me. I don't know, it just seems like a mental breakdown. Not really a full on. So the guy is also super random and I don't know where I would fit this in. It's not really an appropriate thing, but Mal showed up to a New Year's Eve party during the midst of all of this and wore a diaper over his swimsuit like an adult diaper and he was shirtless and he wanted to be the New Year's baby.

I don't know what that means, and he's 51, by the way. So that's a month. Mel is busy being a New Year's Eve baby and looking for his next mommy. And Mary-Anne is sweating in the courtroom. She had to give a testimony, and it was a lot different from Mel's. So this time she's nervous, she's stumbling over her words, she's rambling, and after the testimony,

a nice female police officer approaches her and says, Maryanne, do you want to tell me how you're really feeling? I'm afraid of Mel. Well, he's going to be arrested long before he can even have the thought of hurting you. Is there something you want to tell us? I know where the body is. The police were flored. I mean, they knew that Brenda was likely dead, but the fact that Maryanne was confirming

it after 16 months of working on the case, it was hard to hear. They still had to do their job, though. They promised to charge Marianne only with tampering with evidence in exchange for her cooperation, and she told them everything. Everything. We cannot, Brenda. We tortured her, malriped her, and then he killed her. We buried her body in the woods near my house. Well, I mean my old house since I moved.

I can take you there. It's about 200 yards into the woods behind my old place. Why did you guys kill Brenda? Just Mel complained a lot about his sex life with Brenda and he said that she was a cold person. He wanted to bring her over to my place and get that out of her, get her out of that mental space. He called it sex therapy class. I didn't think we'd actually kill her, but we did dig her grave back in August.

So I guess that's well before September 24th. He even tried to get me actively involved in the torture, but he wanted me to perform sexual things on her and he wanted me to get involved with it. And at first, I was going to to and then the more I thought about it I didn't want to get involved at all. I didn't even want to be there Anyway, Mel brought her over here and tied her face down on the coffee table and he raped and satamized her for hours What's fascinating is that the confession was incredibly cold and detached Side note Mary Ann also says annual sex a lot instead of anal sex

Now I don't know if this is her brain trying to downplay what they did or what happened to Brenda or if this was just plain ignorance, I'm not sure, but she always said annual sex. Marianne suggested that they go to her place so that she can really explain how it happened. When they get to her house, she offers like a good little host. She offers everyone tea, coffee, chocolates, and okay, back to what's going on. So he tortured her on the coffee table. Their investigators sitting on the couch near the coffee table eating chocolates off the

coffee table and they go, wait, this coffee table? Yeah, that's the only coffee table I own. And she was so casual about it. So the investigators, they feel sick about the whole thing, which like, I didn't know that an FBI agent would come to my house and would eat my food. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. That sounds like... And didn't know that an FBI agent would come to my house and would eat my food. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. That sounds like... And then they all plot dead.

Exactly, and she's just giggling with her chocolates. Like, I don't understand. So they put down their chocolates and they're like, Okay, then what happened? Well, then we took her into the bedroom here, follow me. I guess I don't know that lesson. One of the officers sits down on the edge of the bed. She's like, well, we tied her to the bed, and she was killed here.

Mel used chloroform on her, and yeah, this is the bed. So she's guiding them through this house, like it's a house tour, like it's a real estate showing, and she's just so casual, so cold, so detached, so incredibly terrifying about all of it. And at the end, she lets them know, oh, and we took pictures of the whole thing. I didn't get Mal's face because he told me not to, but he should have the photos somewhere. Meanwhile, I guess harder working detectives they get to digging. Just to be on the safe side, they need to know more though.

They said, Marianne, we need you to wear a wire. What? It'll be safe. Don't worry. The FBI is going to come. Wire up your apartment and you're going invite Mel over, get a confession. We're gonna have two officers hiding in the closet, if he tries to hurt you, they'll pop out. If he confesses to the murder, they'll pop out in the rest of the time. So the FBI, they get to work, they set everything up, and now you just gotta call the asshole. She dials his number.

Mel I need to talk to you. Okay, but I don't wanna go over there, so meet at our usual spot, you know, the ice cream shop on popular level road. Okay, and then hang up. They're like, why did you just agree to that? You're supposed to meet it. You were supposed to meet here. We, we've had this for hours and now you're meeting him at an ice cream shop in 30 minutes and we can't ensure your safety. Okay, okay, that's fine. You'll just wear a wire. Tell him that some developers bought the woods behind your old house and you heard whispers that they're digging everything up so that they can build something.

Okay? You also have to mention Brenda's name legally. You also have to mention the grave and the woods. Mention the lie detector test and how you failed miserably, okay? 30 minutes later, Mel sides into the passenger side of Mary Ann's car. There was an unmarked FBI van with agents monitoring and listening to the wire in real time and police surveillance close by. They were ready, it was game time, but their star player did not have her head in the game. Freaking Mary Ann, I mean I get it, she's terrified, but I also don't want to have any sympathy for this woman, she

completely blew it. During their 13 minute conversation, Mel did 98% of the talking. The rambling. And Mary-Anne did nothing to guide the conversation. Or do anything to get him to confess to anything. She just blurted out. The FBI showed up and now they're harassing me. What? Well, what did you tell them?

That I have to talk to my attorney? No, no. Just tell them that you're not taking another lie detector test period. Tell them you're not taking the test and they can't force you. Where is it written that you have to do anything? What are they gonna do? Tie you up and make you take the test. They can't do anything to you, Mary, and don't you understand?

God, you're so stupid. Don't you understand? It's God damn pressure game. And then out of nowhere, Mary-Anne changes the subject. Honestly, the whole thing is comical in the sense that nobody got their shit together. Like, it's frustrating to the point that it's comical. Marianne, all of a sudden goes, the property's been sold.

Fine, it's been sold. Let it be sold. Yeah, but what are you going to do when the developers go back and and the FBI are sitting in their van, like, come on, say it, say it, say it. Like, what are they going to do when they go and dig up Brenda's grapes? Say it. What is she doing? Why is she, why is she pausing? Marianne says, what it, say it, like what are they gonna do when they go and dig up Brenda's grave? Say it! What is she doing? Why is she why is she pausing? Marianne says what if they clear it? She doesn't mention Brenda's grave

And he says get serious don't worry about what they won't or what they will do. Does it do you any good to worry about the property? Don't make a spectacle of yourself and don't make an issue of it And he's almost screaming at her. He says, you don't have to talk to them. You know that. You're just plain fucking afraid to stand up in the face of authority. You let them intimidate you and they know it. You know what's ironic about this whole thing?

Mel wants Mary-Anne to stand up in the face of authority so that she can protect him. But I mean, after 10 years of dating Mel, I'm sure he's contributed greatly to the reason that Mary-Anne can't stand up for herself., like he is being destroyed by what he himself has created. He goes on to scream at her, don't get rattled! I don't give a shit if they're gonna dig down eight feet into the whole damn length of the property! They're not gonna do anything like that, so stop worrying!

I know what kind of structures they build out there. They build slab structures. Even if they clear the damn thing, it's just the top, That's it. No big deal. Mel talked for five minutes straight. Mind you, the whole audio clip is like 13 minutes. So he's just going on. He almost had this hysterical edge in his voice. And at the end, he said one sentence that would be up for debate for years, if not decades, because the audio quality, there's breaks in communication and it's not perfectly clear to the casual listener what it sounds like. So this is the first one that most

people believe this is what was said. Believe me that's not shallow. That place we dug is not shallow. Besides that one area right by where the site is does not have any trees by it. The trees are down if you remember. So it's not a big deal. If worse comes to worse and something needs to be done, I will handle it. So the words that place we dug, the site. I mean, these are also suspicious. But later, Mel's attorneys would argue that it sounded like the place we got and the safe. So it goes something like this. Believe me, that's not shallow. That place we got is not shallow.

Besides that one area right by where the safe is does not have any trees by it. The trees are down if you remember. So it's not a big deal. If worse comes to worse and something needs to be done, I will handle it. Wow. So clever.

This is a turning, wow. So how does that conversation make sense in the big picture? Mel's attorneys actually tried to argue that Mel had buried a treasure chest. A fucking treasure chest. And the midst of a murder investigation, that's what we're talking about. Then dig it back out. Exactly. But they don't.

Because there's no treasure chest. Well, we'll get there. So regardless, the police had nothing on Mel and they couldn't arrest him. He was free yet again. It had been close to a year and a half since Brenda had been missing. And then on the afternoon of January 9th, Brenda's remains were found, exactly where Mary Ann said they would be. She was wrapped in plastic, buried about three feet deep. They found another plastic bag near her, filled with her clothes.

Her purse and jewelry could not be found, because they were stolen. Not from the grave, but from her before she went into the grave. Brenda's body was so severely decomposed, the outer layer of her skin had essentially dissolved. Her facial features were gone. Most of her body hair had fallen out. She was bound tightly with rope, and this is going to be pertinent later. She was almost bound in this like fetal position her arms wrapped around her legs

They were tied near her ankles and a rope was tied around her head And it went around her knees and then to her ankles. I mean just by imagining it You're having a hard time because it was intricate this whole thing was so complex so intricate Everything was not it with this precision, with these types of nods that most people couldn't even know existed. What is his background on that? Does he have special... You know who has a good knowledge of nods?

People with boats. Ah. That's a really good knowledge of nods. And even though the knowledge was extreme, the investigators said that they had never seen such intricate series of knots in their entire lives. But in the end, her body was so badly decomposed that the investigators could not find anything. Oh, any DNA evidence?

You're right. Not much. I mean, they did find hairs later, which they didn't test. I'm just, so they couldn't find anything. The skin had deteriorated, there were no markers, there weren't even bruises. So I mean, it's clear that she was going to have bruising because of how intricately she was tied, but you couldn't even see any rope burns anymore.

That's how much the outer layer of the skin had dissolved. The medical examiner was forced to run dental records to get a match, her legs were permanently bent. Even during the autopsy, they couldn't unbend it. They had to cut off Brenda's hand to send to the FBI in hopes of getting a fingerprint, not a fingerprint match, but a fingerprint because that's how badly she was decomposed. The scariest part of the autopsy that still goes on answer to this very day and is driving people crazy is the fact that Brenda recently had a history wrecked me.

Do you know what that is? It's when you're uterus, you're ovaries, you're filetian tubes, they're completely removed. They're not injured, they're not misplaced, they're removed. So they cut. You don't know. So the examiner couldn't tell when it took place. There was a suture line that indicated that it was pretty recent. The shaffer family was shocked by this news.

I mean, everybody that knew Brenda was so shocked. What are you saying? A hysterectomy? I mean, sure. She had menstrual cramps when she was in high school. Sure, sometimes it was bad, but she had never taken enough time off of work to get an operation. She never asked her family, hey, can you drive me to and from the operation?

Which you would need. None of her medical records indicated that she had a history of me. So is this still a mystery you would say? Yes, a friend of hers remembered the summer before Brenda died. She was complaining about having menstrual cramps. I mean, the whole thing is really creepy. And these are all speculations, but some people speculate that she was drugged and a hysterectomy took place. Some people say that it took place during her murder. I mean the whole thing is just so creepy and it's it's unanswered. Brenda was buried January 13, 1990.

Her mom passed away exactly five months later. Her lupus had deteriorated, but members of the family insist that Brenda's death had taken away as she's will to live. Her husband, John, Brenda's dad, suffered a heart attack seven months later. And this is like the saddest part about John. He lived to see his oldest son Jack

brutally murdered in the line of duty. His youngest daughter tortured and murdered, his wife die of illness and heartbreak, and everyone said that the months leading up to John's death, all he did was stare at a wall. He just sat there staring at a wall. As far as the shafers were concerned, Melignato was responsible for three deaths. Maybe even four, because remember Jim Rosh, Brenda's ex? He died in his bedroom a few months after Brenda disappeared. The coroner ruled his death cardiovascular disease, and it wasn't connected to Brenda's death in any way, shape or form, but all of the additional smoking, all of the additional drinking that he did, when she was nowhere to be found.

I'm sure it contributed in some way. I'm not saying this guy was healthy as a horse, but it just makes this story even more heartbreaking. So when the police get confirmation of Brenda's remains, they immediately go to a rest smell. And it said that the head detective Jim Wesley was so excited, was so happy to catch this mother forker, that he tripped over a step in Mel's kitchen almost fell to his knees and Everybody finally for a moment almost laughed at him because it was a good moment You know they couldn't save Brenda. They felt like they could at least put this guy away for life Make him pay for his heinous crimes. Maybe he'll even get the death penalty or so they thought

So the police take Mel away and they start searching his house and they were shocked. The place was meticulous. It was a level of neatness that they had never seen before. The entire place was spotless. The only thing that was found of interest was a few newspaper clippings about Brenda's disappearance. That was it. No alleged photos, no alleged films, no chloroform, no shovel, nothing.

It was spotless. He kept a journal with all these highlights of his days, and a lot of the dates curiously around September 24th were violently crossed out and blacking. Like wait a minute, obvious, right? Experts, which by the way, I love that the world is filled with endless experts, I just think, you know, when we think of experts experts we think of like the same three generic categories But the fact that handwriting experts is it exist? They can you know pick apart the scratches with the indents of the words written underneath them

I find it so fascinating. So they try to decipher this a single line was deciphered from the whole thing It was written September 24th. It read sex slash keep bound in house dot dot dot unrealistic idea. It seemed like Mel tinkered with the idea of keeping Brenda bound in Mary Ann's house as a sex slave, but decided it was way too unrealistic. So Mel gets arrested and in typical asshole fashion, he sells his house to his mom for $100. You're like, what does that mean?

Why doesn't matter? We don't care about real estate stuff. It's because if the shafers decide to pursue a wrongful desu'd against Mel, his assets would not include the house because he sold it to his mom. And you can't sue his mom. And the house's value was at like $350K. So his bound is set. He's indicted for murder,

kidnapping, sawdame, sexual abuse, tampering with physical evidence. So this is a lot. This is a lot of charges, kind of pertinent later. Marianne was charged with tampering with the evidence. And she was going to testify during Mel's trial, which, by the way, I don't even know how to get into this shit show that's Marianne, but she pretended, allegedly,

she pretended to have Bell's palsy, which is like a swelling of the motor nerve. It causes one side of the face to droop, but it typically doesn't impair speech. It's typically also not an incredibly painful thing. But Marianne walks into the courtroom with a medical patch over her eye, and she's walking gingerly, as if every step that she's taking is the most painful thing she's ever experienced. Even though the condition itself doesn't typically cause pain, especially not in her legs, and all the words that she said on the stand were, fah, fah, fah, fah. Like nothing was coherent.

Why is she like that? The prosecution speculated she's faking the condition. To avoid testifying. Yeah. She also wasn't seeing a neurologist about her condition, which is weird, because, what, wouldn't you see a neurologist? And a neurologist that was not her doctor, testified and said, you know, I've treated hundreds of patients with Bell's policy. I've never seen her sometimes.

Like, her speech is weird. I mean, everyone else's speech is perfectly understandable. It's almost like she's making a mockery like she's it's weird. Another doctor said there's no physical reason for Mary Ann's impaired speech or walk. Unless it's on some sort of unconscious level or of course she's faking it. For that reason, the trial was postponed. Come on. During the postponement, Maryann went from gingerly walking around, not even being able to talk

to getting married and going on cruises. With who? With her new, yeah. So, the trial starts late 1991. By this point, both of Brenda's parents had passed, and just so many factors in this mess. This trial was going to be held in Kenton County instead of Louisville. With only three weeks before Christmas, Kenton County juries, traditionally, were less likely to find someone guilty near Christmas.

Which is a terrifying thought that I've never really thought about until this case. Humans are so emotional, they are so impacted by seasons, by holidays. I mean, we think that we're logical, but imagine putting your fate in the hands of all of these emotional beings, it's terrifying. So explain that during Christmas. You don't want to find people guilty because you're in this holly jolly spirit

of everyone's good, you want to help the world. I think it also has to do with why there's a huge uptake in donations during the Christmas month during the holidays because it's like a giving season like you feel he you know the Christmas carols put you in a certain mood wow yeah the jury consisted of a clerk nurse housewife retired school principal a truck driver an IRS employee and a city maintenance employee. Few of them had jury experience. The prosecutors were facing an uphill battle.

Brenda was badly decomposed. They had nothing to work with. The death was even ruled homicide by unknown means. Juries don't like unknown means. There was no way to prove that she was killed with chloroformed like Marianne claimed. Speaking of Marianne, the prosecutors realized most of their case relied heavily on Marianne. She was the star witness, the one, to bring the case home. For lack of a better term, they fucked up.

Okay, because Marianne is not someone you wanted to pen on, ever. For example, they did other things. There were animal hairs on Brenda's body that the prosecutors failed to analyze. Guess who's got dogs? Marianne. Guess who never goes to Marianne's house, Brenda. So if they were able to pinpoint those animal hairs to Marianne's dogs, I mean, that's

more evidence. The partial print found in the back of Brenda's car? Ah, they never matched it against Mel's prints. Speaking of the front seat of Brenda's car, when it was found, was adjusted to the seat of Brenda's car? They never matched it against Mel's prints. Speaking of the front seat of Brenda's car, when it was found was adjusted to the seat of someone tall. Brenda was five three, the seat was not for her. Let's be real, it was for someone that was over six feet tall, like Mel. Then the prosecutor found out too late

that Mel did other suspicious things after the murder. For example, he went over to a girlfriend's house named Barbara, an ex-girlfriend, gave her a dildo, lube, and condoms. And was like, here, keep these, thanks. So people are like, maybe he gave it to Barbara so that he could get rid of them. I mean, it's an odd gift to say the least to give to your ex.

Maybe he used these things on Brenda, and now he's getting rid of them. The prosecution actually learned about this through crime stoppers, but by then it was too late. I mean, there was going to be no more court delays. Barbara could not testify. Which she would have been an amazing testimony compared to Marianne. Even though Marianne was there at the murder. So you're like, how? I mean, she was the one that was there. Let me explain. Marianne showed up in a short skirt that was way too short for the courtroom. Fine, okay, that's excusable.

Then her entire vibe, her posture, her mannerisms, they were so relaxed, they were so casual, she was nonchalant. Maybe that's just who Maryann is. But it did not read well in a courtroom. She testified about her relationship with Mal. How they dug a hole to use a sex therapy for Brenda. She said, one time he started digging the hole and I think that there was, there was some mention that he was going to bury her there. I told him, I don't want any part of that. He said,

don't worry about it, we're just going to scare her. What do you mean you're just going to scare her? Well, he said she's a very timid person and if you raise your voice at her, you could scare her like a timid little mouse. Which I don't know, it makes me question then why the hell do you need to grave then? So Mary watched Mel dig the hole and she said oh and then he broke a shovel midway through he had to go buy a new shovel. Oh we even did a scream test in my house and I know I sound bored and that's because Mary Ann sounded bored. Like she was sitting there describing this heinous crime,

this vicious murder, and it was with the enthusiasm and the emotion as you would describe a potato in the product aisle, like the produce aisle. At one point, she leaned back and had her chin like on her right hand. You don't know how you're talking about like that board, let's the stereotypical, I don't even think anybody does this in real life, board pose.

She said, oh, and then we did the scream test in my house. So I stood inside, I screamed as loud as I could, Mel went outside, and he was just trying to see if he could hear me. Okay, so tell us about that day. Well the day before Mel came over and he brought these like black plastic garbage bags, some duct tape, and this clothesline rope that he cut into pieces And I went a camera with like rolls of film. Oh he has a rather like a battery powder dildo Lou work gloves his fraternity pad. He brought a lot. Oh he also brought chloro form. Yeah, I forgot about a lot of chloro form And then September 24th Brenda picked up Mel they drove around

They like did some things. And around 6 p.m., he told her to drive to my house. She didn't know as my house. OK. And then what happened? Then she came into the house and she was confused. She was like, Mary Ann isn't that your ex. And she was so confused because she even said,

after all that stuff you said about Mary Ann, why would you bring me here? And Mel was all like, well, you're here for sex therapy class. This will get you better at sex. So she explains Brenda gets up and she says, I want to go home. And Mel tells her, no, you're not leaving. As soon as you do this, I'll let you go home. First, I need you to take off your jewelry so that we don't get it damaged. He took her watch, her necklace, her bracelet, and her engagement ring. He had her standup against the wall.

And he had this checklist of all the things he wanted to do. Even in the order that he wanted to do it, it's almost like he was fixated on doing these actions. He starts taking pictures of Brenda with the camera that she gave him for Christmas. And he said, he opposed like like this. Okay now like this And eventually he forced her into taking off her clothes He forced her into the classic image of a war prisoner. Do you know I'm talking about with your hands behind your head elbows out?

Brenda was terrified She just said can you please get this over with I just want to go home Okay, but first you need to lay face down on the coffee table. She laid face down. He tied her arms and her legs to the table legs. Mel got undressed, which by the way, the author goes in depth on how many moles Mel has and like how hairy his back is. I don't know if that helps you paint the picture, but here we are. He also kept on his prized possession a stainless steel and 18 karat gold watch This is important later. He performed oral sex on Brenda and then he raped her with his body as well as sex toys

He took close-up pictures of her private areas Then he dragged her into the bedroom Mary Ann's bedroom tied her to the bed And he told Mary Ann to take pictures of them, but don't get his face make sure his face isn't in there which to bring you back to the courtroom again Mary Ann is telling even this part of the story like with her head leaned up against her hand speaking so casually her body language was so indifferent it was wild she was completely emotionless and not in that traumatized like I am completely disassociating from this, but just like whatever. She went on to say that Mel kept making remarks at Brenda.

He would say things like Brenda is having sex better than she ever had before. He was constantly checking things off his list. He was satanizing her and at one point, Maryanne tells the courtroom, he raped her annually with his finger and smelted and remarked it smelt very good, and he told me to do the same thing, and I was scared so I did the same thing. Then Mel took out the fraternity paddle and started hitting Brenda forcefully. She was screaming and Mel was silent.

He was enjoying it. Now she also said that Mel forced Brenda into recording a short audio clip and it goes something like this Mel starts with good evening ladies and gentlemen. We are coming to you live This is your host Mel Ignato and here with me is my PUTA the Spanish word for sex worker The Jezbel who tried to leave me she's been captured and taken prisoner by me now. The prisoner will now identify herself. My name is Brenda Souchefer. I've been captured and taken prisoner by Mel Ignato. Describe your situation Brenda. You treated me like a dog. You humiliated me by stripping me naked. You have bound me hand and foot. And now, oh no, I'm trapped

like a beast in a snare. It sounds rehearsed. It sounds like he's forcing her to say these exact lines. He said, well, Brenda, my bound beauty, welcome to your nightmare. And then Brenda starts sobbing in the background screaming, Mel, I'm sorry, please don't touch me, please don't hurt me. Which I mean, I think this part really shows his mentality. I mean, this is so incriminating. This is, I imagine if you're a criminal, this is the last thing you would want to record. But he doesn't care, he wants to own her

and he wants to hear her say it. It's vile. Mary answered she couldn't watch anymore, so she ran to the kitchen. She had more than enough time and no abouts to go call a neighbor, call 911, anything really, but she did nothing. She stood there in the kitchen and she did not help Brenda.

Then Mel called in Mary Ann to come and wipe Brenda's face. She brought a washcloth and wiped away Brenda's tears. I don't know how woman to woman. You can sit there and wipe someone's tears after this type of traumatic event and not feel something. And no matter how much you might hate a woman or this woman or what kind of relationship you've had, I just can't imagine how you would just say, you know what, I'm still going to sit back and do nothing.

I just, to me, that doesn't make sense. I think it goes against human nature. She was bruised, Brenda was bruised, she had rope burns everywhere, and Mary-Anne looked at that and left the room. She could see from her peripheral vision that Mel was dousing a towel with chloroform. He put it up against Brenda's face to deprive her of oxygen. Mary-Anne said that she didn't see Brenda die, but when she got back in the room she was unmoving. It was later speculated that Mel only knocked her unconscious and buried her

alive. Mel tried to calm down Marianne by saying, she went to sleep, just like you would go to sleep, she didn't suffer, calm down. Again, it adds to the theory that he never killed her with the chloroform and she was alive when she was buried. Another reason that people believe this is because she was tied up tightly in a fetal position. I mean, Mel tied her up so elaborately that you have to wonder if he knew that she was still alive. And he was worried that she was going to crawl out of the grave. Yeah, that's what a... What, why did he tie her so elaborately? Exactly.

That there must be a reason behind it. And it doesn't seem like he has, I mean, yes, he is very aggressive when it comes to his sex life, but I don't see a lot of reporting, oh, like he was obsessed with BDSM and like ropes, I didn't see that. He did, like, tie people up occasionally even Mary Ann, but to this level, this is a different level. Like, he was more of like a casual, you know, does that make any sense? And also the fact that he freaked out when S.E. told him that she thought that Brenda was at her sister-in-law's. So it's kind of like, is this his god or something in him that's like, oh my god, did she? That

split second of like, what? That makes sense. Yeah, which... Wow. Wow. Yeah, when you like sit back and you think about what kind of person it takes to bury someone alive. Wow. So Mel put Brenda into a garbage bag and wrapped duct tape around it and carried her body into the woods. Mary Ann said, I was carrying one side and he was carrying the other. He just kept getting mad because I had to keep sending it down. They placed Brenda's body into the grave and they threw a garbage bag of her clothes in there. They covered the grave, went back to Marianne's, he took all of the things and he got into Brenda's car, Marianne drove behind him, they abandoned Brenda's car. And this was Marianne's testimony.

On paper, it was impactful, but her delivery, she told it so matter of fact, almost in like this bored tone. It was ridiculous. Meanwhile, the defense painted a more emotional picture of Mel. They said, Mel is this sad, honest, good man and not a sexually sadistic monster. I mean, the star witness is a woman that wow started to say it but is obsessed with no She of course wants to see him in trouble. She wanted to be with him She wanted to be engaged to him after 10 years it didn't work out and all of a sudden this great man

She wanted to marry is a killer now Ladies and gentlemen are we really to believe that? Would all of your exes say amazing things about you The defense they were able to get some random witnesses and I don't even know how these people, I just, I don't even know how these people came about, I don't know how they got these witnesses, but there was one retrist that, oh no, I was certain I saw Mel and Brenda at my restaurant that day and Brenda was so happy, she was smiling a lot. Interestingly enough, Mel never even claimed to visit that particular restaurant.

But the witness helped him, so why not go with it? Another witness, a boat owner, insisted he saw Brenda and Mel on Mel's boat. Again, Mel never said he got on the boat since the weather was bad. But he wasn't going to shut down another helpful witness. So the jurors in the end did not believe the state provided proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. They believed in fact that some of the prosecutor's evidence was laughable. Other jurors, they just liked Mal, plain and simple.

He was impeccably dressed, he carried himself well, and then more than a few jurors were very skeptical of Mary Ann. They believed that she was more guilty than she was letting on. One juror later admitted, we were just goofing around. I mean, we didn't really get the full weight of the situation. We just wanted to get it over with so we could go home for Christmas. It was a shit show. Holy cow.

After two hours of deliberation, the jury had their verdict. Ten jurors voted not guilty. Two voted guilty. In the end, the others convinced the two for a vote of acquittal. Mel was a free man. He was found not guilty in the murder of Brenda Schaefer, and all the other charges too. Kidnapping, sexual abuse, robbery, everything. I can't even imagine how Brenda's family felt.

Mel was gonna walk free. I mean, it was so bad that Judge Johnston, who presided over the trial, wrote a letter to Brenda's brother. It said, dear Tom, I want to express to you in your family my shock and dismay over the Ignato verdict. I am still unable to fathom how a jury could come to such a decision. I fear that it had little to do if anything to do with the evidence. You can imagine how many times I've been asked, what happened? And I still don't have a rational explanation. You and your family have the utmost respect

for the manner in which you have suffered through this tragedy. I can hope that your family will someday be able to put this behind you, whether in this world or in any other. One day, justice will be done, sincerely yours, Martin Johnstone. Meanwhile, Marianne was sentenced to five years in prison for tampering with evidence. She was given the maximum charge. Now, Marianne was in jail, she deserved it, but Mel was walking free.

And that to me is wild. So Mel's house gets sold, and the photos are found, but here's the problem. Mel's free, and another picture show Mel's face. A lot of it is just Mel's torso and his legs, and no face. How can they even prove it's Mel in the pictures? So the police have an idea. A judge can sign an order allowing Mel to be stripped and photographed naked, which is legal under federal statutes, which is good to know. So again, they arrest him, and they take him down to the FBI field office, and photographed naked, which is legal under federal statutes, which is good to know. So again, they arrest him and they take him down

to the FBI field office and they say, all right, buddy, you're gonna be photographed, fingerprinted, and we're gonna take some photos fully clothed and then naked. We want you in the same position as the male whose photograph is salting Brenda. For comparison, of course. They say the Allah.

Yeah, male freaked out. He's like, I'm not going to strip down with a woman in the room. The female FBI agent stood up and said, yeah, you are. You don't have a choice. I'm a lead FBI agent on this case, and I have the legal right to be here. And I'm professional at my job.

And they just felt this small tinge of justice. Mel had forced Brenda to strip down and humiliated her, and now they were going to do the same to him. Well, I'm not going to do it. Mel, I have a court order and you're going to comply. No, I won't do it. I won't be humiliated like this. I want to see my attorney. And you can, after you're photographed, as that's the law. We have a court order. It won't do you any good or me to have to roll around here on the floor ripping her clothes

off. Now will it? You're close. They're coming off, so I don't want to hear it. Mel gave in, but he said, I want it on the record that I'm protesting. Okay, well it's on the record. Mel stripped down. He was forced to be photographed in various glued positions.

This was not in the pictures from what I know. He was also asked to put his hands behind his head, elbows out. In the same war prison, our position, he had put Brendan. The confidence drained from Mal's face and he was clearly humiliated. The photos were compared and there was no doubt that it was Mal in the pictures. He was even wearing the same watch when he was photographed. It was very clear, mal-wrapped, and tortured, and murdered Brenda Schaefer. But there was just one problem.

Taborceverdi. Mel was acquitted of her murder, and he could not be tried again for it. The law protected Mel. Instead, the police indicted him for perjury and lying to a grand jury. Yeah, the injustice doesn't end there, because the maximum sentence is just over 10 years. Mel is 54. If he served the maximum, he would still be in his 60s, and he would have quite a life to live as a free man afterwards. And that's the best case scenario.

So to avoid getting the max sentence, Mel pled guilty. He said, On September 24th, I did take Brenda Schaefer over to Mary and Shore's house, and I did physically and sexually abuse her, and I did murder her. She died from having inhaled chloroform, and she died peacefully. I assumed total responsibility for what I did, what I did was wrong and horrible, and there are reasons, but I'm not going to get into that because there are no excuses. He's making me mad. I just wanted to say to Brenda's family that I'm very sorry for this.

I know all the pain and sorrow and suffering I've caused. I felt it myself and I want to apologize to my own family for the same reason. I want to apologize for the local, excuse me, thank you, speech. I want to apologize for the local law enforcement agency and the judicial system local county state and federal for all the grief and burden I've caused them. It was not my intent to do that. I hope you all forgive me and I ask for forgiveness from God and I hope that there's some unknown way that God will bring about some good from this because I know the Bible says in all things God works for the good for those who love. What are you saying?

I just want to punch this guy. So Mel is sentenced to eight years and one month and he was fined $150. I'm really glad that they find him mad. That's going to teach him a lesson. It's such a small amount. He doesn't even need to sell his prized watch to pay it. I'm so glad. He wasn't even required to complete

any prison psychiatric counseling, but was Mel happy with getting away with murder? No. He argued he should get a reduced sentence for pleading guilty. He saved the government, the trouble and expensive preparing for a trial, which is just insulting. I mean, think about it,

he could have been looking at the death penalty if he wasn't lucky, but now he's complaining about a few years in prison for murder, for torture and murder. And it worked though. Two years were shaving off. And another year for good behavior. He was released in November 1997 after serving just five years. But here's where it gets weird. So before he was arrested the second time,

he actually got into a legal dispute with Brenda's former boss. Brenda's former boss was so distraught and Brenda had a good relationship with everyone at work, especially her boss. So he threatened to kill Mel. Yeah, that happened. Then there was this whole legal lawsuit, Mel was trying to sue,

he was trying to sue, this whole thing. And during a lawsuit deposition, Mel and the employer sat there and Mel said, I didn't hurt Brenda. Well, as soon as he was released, he was indicted for perjury in the spaulting case. Because you can lie more than once. He just confessed that he killed Brenda. But in that legal deposition, he said, I did not hurt Brenda. See, I like that you can never

truly get away. No so he was sentenced to another nine years in prison. He was released December of 2006. After being released he moved into a house four miles from Mary Ann's old place. And on September 1st, 70 years old, Mel was found dead. An upstairs neighbor said he walked down and he found Mel's body in a pool of blood on the floor. There was a trail of blood on the floor indicating to the neighbor that Mel hid his head on the coffee table. So you know when you're 70, you're old you fall. He fell, hid his head on the coffee table through the glass. He dragged himself towards the kitchen because he's bleeding now, a lot. But then he changed his mind, or maybe he realized that his phone is not in the kitchen, then

he tried to get to the bedroom, the trail of blood the whole place, and he lost his strength and blood out and died. It appeared to be accidental, there is still no cause of death. Mel's neighbor said, you know, it's sad. He's a sick, elderly man man alone and struggling for help, and he apparently stumbled to his death. I used to hear him at night asking for Jesus to come get him because he was in pain.

Listen, I don't know if this is karma, but small conspiracy time. What if the neighbor killed him? I'm used to so nonjolanda. I mean, just the way that he talks about the situation. I feel like the neighbor, in my head, I don't know if this is to make myself feel better about this heinous case. So, Mel's dead.

And Mary Ann, she was released in 1994, died 10 years later in 2004 at the age of 54 of natural causes. And this is probably the clearest cases of double jeopardy not being a good thing. Now, I'm not saying we need to get rid of double jeopardy, but this is wild. And he did get away with it. And there was no justice. Wow. What are those those juries though, you know, the way they just I can't even see so scary jury duty because you never really know what you're getting in for yeah, and you could just have a couple people who don't really care

Yeah, okay, there could be so much injustice to yes on the daily basis if you really think about it There's actually reddit threats of people who were in jury duty and they just talk about the things that they've heard from other jurors. And you'd be surprised at how many jurors just want to get it over with. Exactly. Exactly. What are your thoughts on this one? Let me know and I will see you guys on Sunday for the mini-sode. Bye! for the mini-suit. Bye!