Rotten Mango - #170: The Virginity Pact Killers (Case of George & Lucas)

Episode Date: June 5, 2022

It was supposed to be a place of growth, learning, and happy laughter filling the yards. It was a place where people were supposed to feel safe. But in the parking lot of the elementary school, under a suspicious white van, there was a woman lying nude. Murdered. The police had the killers in the back of the cop car… they could see one of them looking at the victim. His lips curled up into a small smile. He was happy with what he had done. He wanted to do this for a while. He told his accomplice - “hey at least I’m not a virgin anymore." They high-fived. Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to this week's mini-saud of Rotten Mango. I'm your host Stephanie Sue, and in most places outside of the United States, elementary schools are seen as a place of safety, as a place of growth and learning and laughter, right? It's kind of a place where you would never suspect to find evil. How could you? It's a place that young kids should feel comfortable and safe enough to learn all the things that they need in order to live happy fulfilling lives in the future. But in the parking lot of foothills elementary school, there was a white van parked. And I feel like that always gave me anxiety as a kid.

White vans, we've heard the horror stories of what happens if someone takes you in their white van. Even now as an adult, the sight of a white van parked next to my car gives me just anxiety and full blown panic at times. But this time, it wasn't about who was in the van. It was about who was under the van. Even at a distance, it was easy for the police to see. A woman lying naked, faced down on the cold pavement under the white van. It's in the elementary school parking lot. They look back at the killer that led them there. And his lips, when he, his eyes come across the victim and his lips curl into this small smile, he seems happy with what they did.

He wanted to do this for a while. He had told us a complice, hey, at least I'm not a virgin anymore, and they high-fived. As always, full show notes are available at rottenminglepodcast.com, but there is a really good book on this case called A Clockwork Murder by Steve Jackson. This book is amazing in the sense that otherwise I don't think that I would have ever found

out about this case known about this case and will Steve the author he takes from a variety of sources including court transcripts, notes, interviews. The book is really straightforward and I mean that in the best way possible. He tells you about the case in such a way that it's relatable and it helps you relate with the victim from the get go. He does an amazing job. It's truly a heartbreaking case and it's one that I just haven't been able to stop thinking about.

For so many reasons, I mean, just the fact that I don't understand really what was going on in their minds. I can't really follow the progression of how they went from being normal people into full-blown, sadistic, torturous killers. The progression for me is it's confusing, and it's scary because it's like this unknown thing. It's insane. So please go check out the book.

It's the best deep dive on the case out there that you're gonna find, and it's not a really well widely talked about case. So what's the big deal with virginity? I read an article recently titled, The Value Placed on Virginity is one of history's biggest travesties, and when you really think about it, it is a tad bit strange. Your virginity is not actually something that can be traded, given, stolen, or lost. And almost always, girls are the ones that bear the consequences of this whole

Fraginity thing there's actually no scientific way to prove that someone has quote-unquote lost their virginity No doctor could look at anyone regardless of their gender and tell you with scientific proof that they are or are not a virgin Nothing physiologically changes sure you could argue that a woman's hymen is broken Nothing physiologically changes. Sure, you could argue that a woman's hymen is broken, but hymen could also be torn by exercise, masturbation, for no freaking reason at all, and the very same medical examination you're doing could tear your hymen.

So literally just about any reason under the sun and your hymen could be torn. Now mentally and emotionally, you can change from good and bad experiences, maybe trauma, maybe a breakup, a betrayal, but there is no link just between, quote, losing one's virginity to any psychological changes. So literally nothing happens in the body to say, hey, something's changed now. So truly, I could announce tomorrow that I'm a virgin and no doctor could bet their

license that I'm not by examining me. So what I'm trying to say is, it's not a big deal, okay? I'm not saying you should go out there and have sex for the first time with someone random, unless you want to. I'm saying, you shouldn't be judged for having had sex before, or never having had sex at all. None of it really matters. But still in 2022, we make girls feel like once they lost it, it's gone forever. It's something you'll never get back. And in a lot of situations, their value as a human goes down because now they've lost something.

That means something has been subtracted from them, which means they're not as whole and full and pure. And boys are taught, you better lose it sooner rather than later. Or else people are going to wonder, what's wrong with you? You're not man enough to lose it? Yeah, that is a kind of a... A catch-what-you should, yeah! Why is boys treated like you should lose a ASAP versus girls

the other way around? No, I think it's just dangerous. I mean, not just for mental health, but in the world of crime because someone just might be willing to kill to lose their virginity. That's literally today's case. Listen, the investigators working this case had seen a lot.

They had heard a lot. They were not easily spooked or shocked, but when they were sitting there in front of these two guys, which by the way, they were separated while they were being questioned, but there was two of them. They were so called best friends and killers. Now, the police, they were shaking on the inside. Everything about these two was terrifying. Every part about their story, the way that their cold eyes

stared straight at the investigators. The flat tone of their voice, while they relived one of the most gruesome crimes that the detectives have ever heard of. Lucas told officers in a flat tone. After she died, George asked me if I wanted to have sex with her again. And then George suggested we cut off all of her private parts and take it home with us. And the officers were sitting there poker face, but they they wanted to cry, they wanted to

throw up, they couldn't stomach this confession any longer. The details of how to crave one must be to do something like this. The only time that the killer showed any sort of emotions during the entirety of the interrogation was when there was a knock on the door. Oh, are those the Egg McMuffins? I'm starving. Everything was this flat tone, and then we did this, and then we did, oh, shoot, are those the Egg McMuffins?

Oh, thank God. They were excited to eat. They showed genuine emotion over a freaking McMuffin, a breakfast sandwich, not over the life of a human being. There were a lot of people that would not be able to stomach their food after seeing what George and Lucas had done.

A lot of them were residents of a local apartment building. They had witnessed a kidnapping. And there was nothing that they could do to stop it. This sounds like a traumatic nightmare for a lot of people. This is not one of those bystander effect stories where the neighbors are looking out their window, seeing someone being kidnapped and thinking,

well, look at all these heads, bobbing out the windows and balconies. Ah, I'm sure one of my good old neighbors is calling the police already. No. It started with this loud, high-pitched scream. And this is a pretty big apartment complex, by the way. Residents started popping their heads curiously out from their windows.

Their balconies. They look down and they see below them. Two men, Georgian Lucas, yanking their victim violently, pulling her into the back of their car. The residents are screaming out their window. Let her go! Let her go right now! A ton of them are diving over their couch to grab their phones, they're trying to call 911. Let her go! We're calling

the cops! Some neighbors are scribbling down the license plates of the car for almost a minute, which honestly is a very long time. Residents saw George punching the victim in the face repeatedly for an entire minute. A few men rushed on their slippers, they ran out their unit door all the way down to try and help, but they were too late. The car was gone. With all three people, the victim was in the car. By then, Georgian Lucas would be gone

to live out their fantasy with their victim. So you're like, who are these guys? What is this progression into killers? I mean, everybody starts as a little infant, a little newborn that is so helpless and can't do anything for themselves. How did they turn into these evil human beings? Let's start with George.

George is a sniffer. Yeah, a sniffer, I said it, okay. He had this very interesting habit where he had to sniff anything and everything around him. Not just the things that smell good. Not just food. I mean, these are all very normal things to do. Like, when you're in a store, you see a scented candle.

It's almost a contractual obligation for you to sniff it. Is it not? Right? Like, you gotta have a scent, right? But George would sniff anything that was put into his hand. It's the first thing that he did. You hand him a pen to write with, he will sniff it. You hand him your phone because he asked to borrow it, he will sniff it. Maybe you hand him your keys to write with, he will sniff it. You hand him your phone because he asked to borrow it, he will sniff it.

Maybe you hand him your keys to help lock up the apartment, he will sniff it. That's so interesting. Yeah, if you've never heard that before. I've never heard it either. It's so fascinating. If you pass by him, he might push out his neck like a little ostrich and yeah, he's gonna sniff you. He's like a dog. Yeah, I wonder, does he, do you think people like to have a heightened sense of smell? And that's why they want to sniff things? I feel like

it's more than just heightened sense of it, because you have a really good sense of smell. Yeah, I don't. But you're not trying to smell anything, right? I only sniff things that I suspect smell really good and oddly smell really bad. It's fascinating. Listen, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this habit, but let's be real. The guy is a sniffer, okay? He's sniffing everything. Anyway, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this habit, but let's be real. The guy is a sniffer Okay, he's sniffing everything. Anyway, George Walt was born in South Korea His dad Bill was a US Army man and his mom was a young Korean woman that ended up getting pregnant with George So this guy's having a Korean

Now I don't know if his parents were in love if this was a one night stand, which I heard is very common amongst US Army men and Korean women, or if it was a fling, but they thought, all right, Songi is her name. Your belly is not getting any smaller. Let's just get married. And they do when she's eight months pregnant. A month later, baby George is born.

And for the first five years of his life, George was the apple of his mom's eye. He was raised mainly by his mom and his Korean side of the family, since his dad is always at the base, right? Now, George did not actually speak English till he started going to school. He went to this international school, didn't speak a single word of English,

which honestly is so relatable. Okay, the only funny part is, I grew up thinking everyone in America spoke Korean. I thought it was English. I went to school and I was like, oh wow, what is this weird noise they're making? I can't communicate with anyone. My mom did not even give me a heads up. So this is probably what George was feeling. It's really a confusing day I tell you. So anyway, Song-e was a bit of an overbearing mom. She loved her son to a fault. She was obsessed with his appearance.

She wanted little Georgie to look a certain way, to dress a certain way, not have a tiny little hair misplaced on his tiny little head. Everything had to be perfect. She even entered him into children's beauty contest. He won a lot of them, but Georgie wasn't the only child.

The couple went on to have another son named Eric. Nobody really talks about Eric. No literally. He kind of became like this forgotten child. Songi didn't care for him as much. George was the golden boy and nothing was going to change that. He was the kid that looked the best. He won the beauty pageants.

He was the one that made her proud. Even when it was dinnertime, you would sit around the table. Songi, Bill, the dad, and Eric, they would be eating a regular normal meal. Maybe some rice, maybe some Korean side dishes, maybe a soup on the side. But on George's plate, he had special food. Special healthy food, dates, jinsing, short ribs, he was not a normal kid. Maybe Song-yi thought I would make him tell her, cuter, smarter, because that seemed to be what she valued the most in her son, George. That's truly all she cared about. My parents.

Yes, and I don't want to say this, but I think the timing of this story, I think there was kind of this specialness about him because he was half white. So he's winning these beauty pageants. She's like really crazy about his looks So it was made abundantly clear who the favorite of the family was and being special has a price George would actually suffer more than Eric You're like that doesn't make sense Okay, it should be the other way right and I'm not denying neglect and being tossed to the side is not traumatic Like it is I'm sure Eric has his fair share of trauma, but Songi was suffering from some sort of mental illness. It's said that she probably had paranoid schizophrenia, or at least she was showing symptoms of it. She also had these really intense mood swings. One day, she's happy, jolly, praising her, oh my god, you are the best, best son ever.

And then the next day, she would sit her golden boy down and spiral into these delusional rants for hours. He would have to comfort his mom. I mean, think about it, he's this young little boy, he's probably scared, confused, why is mom going off like this, and he's trying to calm her down, she seems emotionally riled up, it's a lot. George had no idea what to expect when he got home. Sometimes it's a happy house, sometimes Songy would rant to him, sometimes he would get

beat because he had some dirt on his shoes. She would say things like, no perfect kid has dirty shoes. I think it really affected George a lot. He started exhibiting some interesting behavior. Now, again, I'm not going to say it's alarming because I don't really know, right? I'm not a child psychologist. But for example, when George was 5, he stuck his finger in a breadmaking machine. And it tore off half of his finger.

Now, for a long time, he had to wear a bandaid on that injured finger. Let's just say it's the right index finger. Well, George would sit there and put a bandaid on his left index finger. Even though he didn't need to, he just wanted everything to be even. Okay, that's interesting. He was raised to be obsessive over his looks, and he channeled that into this crazy intense need to have everything be completely symmetrical.

His hair would always have to be parted straight down the middle, and I'm not talking just like, ooh, middle parts are in, but he would get it combed, and he would redo it, and redo it until it was directly in between his nose perfect perfect, between his eyebrows. He would... At a young age? Yeah, that's interesting, right?

Because I feel like most kids at age are out playing. They don't really care about their looks. He kept a nail clipper in his pocket at all times. He wanted his nails to be trimmed and immaculate, and of course, even on each hand. Even later as an adult, if George had an injury on any part of his body, he would put a bandaid on the corresponding side to make it perfectly even. He was also this huge germaphob and wanted everything to be super cleaned.

Now, things only get worse when the family starts moving around. George's dad was transferred from Korea, Germany to Indiana and finally in Colorado. So being away from Song-hee's family only made her mental illness get worse. She starts getting paranoid, she thinks that the neighbors, the police officers, they're all out to get her. She even accuses Bill her high spinoff cheating on her. And Bill's getting confused, like, what are you talking about? I'm so frustrated, why would I be cheating on you?

There's no way that I can convince you that I'm not. I'm always at work. Here Songi, why don't you talk to this therapist I got you? He thought that giving her a therapist was gonna help, but instead Songi turned around and accused him of sleeping with a therapist. She said, oh, is this she's a mistress huh? And the two of you are trying to get me institutionalized so you can be together and have my kids. And with all of that in the background, Songie starts taking out her anger and her anxiety onto her golden boy. George would spend hours, hours, every single day, making sure his appearance was perfect, but his mom would always find some sort of flaw and beat him for it.

She would stand there and berate him and humiliate him for hours on end. And by the time that George was 10, he was done. He's like, I'm not gonna take this anymore. He starts standing up on his own feet. I think the resentment really starts kicking in. He thought, you know what? No, I don't care. Say what you want, do what you want.

Your words don't affect me, Mom. When his mom would hit him, he would laugh and say, try again, it doesn't even hurt. And it only pissed her off even more. Eventually, the power dynamic shifted so much that George would go out of his way to piss off his mom. And the two of them would get into these full-blown screaming matches where there was cursing, yelling, screaming, running, slamming doors.

And you're like, okay, well, at least they have their amazing dad. That's due in what he can. You know, he got his wife, a therapist, and didn't work out, but he's trying, right? No. Bill was not great either. His family had a history of schizophrenia and alcoholism. You would expect him to be somewhat understanding of Sony's situation, right? No. He would straight up call his wife crazy and over-emotional, which regardless of mental health struggles or not, that's a horrible thing to do.

On top of that Bill would cheat on his wife, so she wasn't inherently wrong or crazy or over-emotional, and in fact he would come home drinking after a late night with his army buddies. And he's tripping all over the place, drunk is can be slurring his words, and he would just start exploding on the family. He would beat George on multiple different occasions. But of course, he would never consider that crazy or over emotional. Bill physically abused the kids and, you

know, you're really starting to think maybe George isn't the golden boy because he got the brunt of the abuse, or maybe they just had such a high expectation from him so they beat him. I don't know. But on two separate occasions, the Army, CPS Agency, Child Protective Services, Investigated Alligations of Ab Army's CPS agency, child protective services, investigated allegations of abuse. Why don't they stop the abuse, you ask? Well both parents denied hitting their kids. They both denied the thing that if they admitted to would give them grave consequences.

They both denied doing something illegal. And the CPS was like, you know what, I feel like you're pretty honest though. Like I feel like there's no reason for you to lie. It's just a vibe I'm getting. I think it's wild. What are you saying? So even when George goes to school, he would complain out loud in front of teachers. I hate being home because my dad just beats me and all the teachers suddenly act

like they're at a Billy Eilish concert and they can't hear anything. By the time that George is 17, he's pretty pissed off at the world. And the fact that none of his teachers CPS nobody did anything So he walked his ass straight up to a cop and said my dad has been abusing me for years now And the police investigate and bills like hell yeah, I did hit him when he was young in the past You know young kids young boys. You know the boys be boys Yeah, when he was vulnerable weaker unable to fight back. yeah, I hit him then when he was a child. I don't do it anymore.

The police are like, thank you, sir, for serving this great country. Love you, say it back. They did nothing about it. George realized authorities are not falling over themselves to help him. So as a 17-year-old, he moves out. He moves in with his pregnant girlfriend, Becky.

At 17. I feel like so far we have a ton of sympathy for George, right? We're like, okay, George, I feel you. Like how can we help you out, right? But George is a bit weird. Let me explain. George was known as those guys that love to brag. He would tell these really big lies

and think of just the most stereotypical lie a guy in high school would tell his bros. That's George. He would be like, bruh, you know, my body count is crazy. It's like 30 or something. I just, the females, yeah, the females literally cannot keep their hands off of me. Also, did you know last summer when I was 16, I was working as a hitman? I know, but like don't tell anyone because I don't want people to be scared of me. How'd you get a gun? Oh, I never used guns and stuff

because I don't really, I don't like it, but I used to take people out using martial arts. I can't show you, otherwise, I'm a target, but I can do martial arts because, you know, I'm half Korean. Yeah. Yeah, they can all do it. The whole nation. It's true though. Yeah, I can do it to you guys. Facts. So, Georgia's friends, they would laugh and go along with it. They knew that he was lying about the martial arts part, probably the headman part. They never saw him even get into a small fight with anyone. But the body count part.

They were kind of believing it, because George was so obsessed with sex. Obsessed, I tell you. This kid watched porn all the time. I'm not even exaggerating. He would have it playing in the background while he ate while he did his homework just as if it's modern family, just playing in the background. A sitcom.

He started off really young. I guess his dad had porn just lying around all the time. George would pick it up and just start watching. His favorite was bondage porn or fake rape porn. And if you ask him his favorite time to have sex, he would say, oh, I love having sex right after a massive fight with my girlfriend when she's so pissed off, when I'm so pissed off, and we might even slap each other a few times. Listen, there's nothing wrong with BDSM. There's also nothing inherently wrong with watching Kinky porn and wanting to have sex with your partner after a fight, as long as it's consensual. That's not the concerning

stuff. The concerning part comes in when you hear George talk about woman in general. He would call woman females. And he would say, just sit down, if George wasn't on death row, he would have an alpha male podcast right now. George would say, females. They're all bitches, you know? Only thing they're good for is fine And if anyone looked at him if they raised an eyebrow or try to argue with him He would say whoa whoa whoa take it a sec. It's just a joke. Geez. I didn't know we can make jokes God everyone's so sensitive don't get so riled up Clearly it's not a joke George

Just look at the way that George treats his girlfriend Becky. The pregnant girlfriend that he just moved in with, will he treat it her like property? If he wanted sex, he expected her to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted it, because he's a high value man. Apparently that's the new word for alpha male. Why would you break into these apartments? For money, for drugs, whatever was in there. Aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this?

No. Who's going to catch us? What a police. It was the height of the crack era, and instead of locking up drug dealers, some New York City cops had become them. I would suit up in my uniform and we're going to want some drug dealers and I know how to do it really well. This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal in NYPD history and the investigation that uncovered it all.

Did you consider yourself a rat? 100% I saved my soul just like everybody else does. that uncovered it all. Did you consider yourself a rat? 100%. I saved my soul just like everybody else does. Listen to and follow the set, an Odyssey originals documentary podcast series available now in the Odyssey app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. I'm not a big guy, man,

but I love being that dirty motherfucker. Later, George would pin down his girlfriends twisting their arms until they cried out in pain and he would only stop, and this is bizarre, when they begged for him to use his big dick to have anal sex with them. I'm sorry, what? Like, if it wasn't terrifying,

it would almost be comical because it's very telling of George's insecurities that he wants them to specifically say, oh big dick, you're big dick. He also took a ton of pride in being able to manipulate people and get them to do what he wanted, which by the way, he only bragged about it, he actually wasn't that good at it. In fact, his idea of manipulation was, come on, don't be a pussy! God, you're so lame, whatever then then lose our go home before curfew That was his idea of manipulation, but he would brag about it. He's like I can mind-fuck anyone Okay, George. Okay George

That is until Lucas salmon came along Yeah, that's his name Lucas salmon and the two of them are George and Lucas It sounds like I'm making it up. Lucas and George met while working at a summer job at a telemarketing company. They were both 18 and three years later, they would violently rip and murder someone together. Now, it's interesting because these two are not what you would expect from best friends. They seem like they have nothing in common.

George was addicted to porn. Lucas was a reserved Christian boy. A little bit about Lucas. He was born to parents Bob and Gail, and his family life kind of sucked, yeah. Lucas's dad made him feel like he was never good enough. The whole family operated on guilt. Like they were a super strict Christian family. Even after the parents divorced, they went to a church as a family to keep up Christian appearances. Which is just so toxic. Like, yeah, fine. You don't want to get divorced because of your religion. That's fine. Not my life.

But imagine how confusing it is for your kids. That your parents are divorced, but then you have to act like a happy little family on Sunday. And then people are asking you and you got a life for your parents. It's just confusing. But their goody-to-shoes church family aesthetic was quickly shattered when a woman accused Bob, the dad for sexual harassment. And he's like, you know what?

I'm just gonna skip town, I'm gonna go to Skidado. So he leaves. Lucas, who's eight at this point, he's lost, he's confused. He, it's said that he starts coming up with a lot of imaginary friends to cope with everything that's going on. He's just constantly talking to his imaginary friends. Originally, he was going to stay with his mom, but after a few years of being a single mom, she's like, I can't do it. You guys have to go.

She ships the kids off to be with her dad. And a little side story of how IQ means nothing. Lucas had an IQ of 134, which puts them in the top 10% of the population. But regularly, not once or twice, but consistently, Lucas would leave the house and Jolly skipped to school, only to look down and realize, ah, I wore my shirt backwards. Fuck, or not again, my shirt's inside out. Wait, what's going on?

Like in high school, just constantly, was wearing a shirt backwards or inside out. What's going on? Like in high school, just constantly. Was wearing a shirt backwards or inside out. So I don't know, maybe we're all doing it wrong. Maybe that's how you're supposed to wear it. I don't have an IQ of 134, what do I know? But before the kids could even notice his pattern, the family had to move again. Bob was accused of sexual harassment again.

So Lucas is just moving around with his dad, Bob. Now, in my head, I'm connecting the dots. Imagine growing up with someone like Lucas's dad. There's no way and hell that he's gonna be respectful towards women, right? But he was. It's a little confusing. Lucas was actually really good to women.

In fact, he was really good to everyone in general. He didn't believe in sex before marriage. He wanted to live his life with good Christian beliefs. He just wanted to help people life with good Christian beliefs. He just wanted to help people. In his free time he went on missions building orphanages in Mexico. He didn't speak. He didn't smoke.

He didn't drink. He hated drugs. Heck, he didn't even dare curse. He wanted to be a police officer when you grew up. Not in the power-tripping way, but he genuinely wanted to save people, to help people, do some good for humanity and for the community. He was overall a really, really good boy. I mean, his dad didn't think so.

Lucas was not the golden child, like George, his brother Daniel was. If you went into Lucas's dad's house, you might think that he only has one son. Lucas was like the forgotten middle kid that just drifted around. Anyway, while Lucas isn't a senior year of high school, he's thinking, why not get a job? That way I can have, you know, a couple extra dollars to go on mission trips and, you know, volunteer. He starts working at the telemarketing firm, and he runs into George. Now, at first the two don't get along.

Lucas thought George was obnoxious, and clearly living a sinful godless life. He for sure was going to hell, and Lucas is not going with him. Meanwhile, George thought Lucas was a boring loser that was too devoted to his sky daddy. But for some reason, George wanted to be friend Lucas. Now, I don't know if he just wanted a coworker to boss around, under this guise of being a best friend, or if he was bored, or if he was lonely, it's hard to say. But George put all of his energy into making Lucas like him.

It worked. It was almost too easy. The first day that George introduced Lucas to other people as his best friend. From that day forward, Lucas was freaking hooked. He had always craved attention. He thought that George was special once he got to know him. George had such an interesting life. He was into martial arts.

He got into fights. He defended good people. He was a cool dude. George would tell him, hey, it's your senior year. If anyone ever bullies you in school, call me. I'll beat him up. I know Tecwondo. Lucas would grin ear to ear.

He just finally felt recognized. Someone who liked him enough and would fight for him, that was a lot. He had never felt that before. So Luqas started spending more and more time with George at Becky's house. And let's just say, George is not a good influence at all, he's literally every parent's nightmare. George wanted Luqas to smoke pot, drink beer with him, and even dabble in LSD. And this is so strange, but George would just pull up on the couch and force Lucas to watch porn with him. Like super kinky, bondage, intense porn.

And when that got them riled up, George would say, Lucas, Lucas, are you bored? Let's just go through a rockset random people's cars. And they did. I don't even know how this is remotely fun. But they got a giggle out of it. And they were promptly arrested and fined. And as much as George was a shitty influence, he was a shitty friend. He would sit there and laugh and say, I can't believe you're a virgin. You know what that means, right? That means you're a insert homophobic slur. Because you've never had a girlfriend. That's what that means.

And he would laugh. Hey, hey, why are you so down? Are you not just messing around? It's all a joke. You know what? I can get my girl Becky to set you up with someone. So you can lose your virginity and stopping a loser. It's embarrassing that my best friend is a virgin. Like you're a loser. But I can help you.

So does he still wanna say for a marriage? Yeah, Lucas is like no, no, no, I don't like this. Okay, okay. But George is just steamrolling him, just running over him and saying, now you got a year of loser. Eventually Becky's friend, Angela, agrees to have sex with Lucas.

So then it's settled. The four of them, George and his girlfriend Becky, Becky's friend, Angela, and Lucas, we're gonna rent a hotel room, one room with two double beds, and they were gonna get drunk and have sex. Georgian Becky just started going at it. They're dry-humping on one of the beds. Well, are you guys just gonna watch? Go do your thing on the next bed. Angela's like, I'm down, and Lucas felt so embarrassed. He ran out of the room, his entire face was bright red. Even when he got back, he refused to sleep

on the same bed as Angela. And instead, he dosed off on the floor. Angela was an offended. But she said, I can't really be with someone that doesn't believe in premarital sex, so I gotta go. And do you think that George has any right to be mad? No, mad that Lucas didn't consent to sleep with someone? No, right?

But he was. I'm telling you, very shitty friend, George would yell at him. I can't believe after everything I've done for you, you can't even sleep with her, you made me a laughing stock. You're lucky I'm still friends with you. It's just so embarrassing being best friends with a virgin. I'm trying to find a girl that will do the impossible with you. You know that no other girl is gonna find you attractive

if I didn't convince them. God, Lucas. George would even make fun of Lucas' penis size. Listen, I don't wanna speculate. But George is too suspiciously into Lucas' virginity and the size of his penis. It's a lot. Anyway, finally Lucas leaves Colorado for college in California, and it seems like being away

from George was going to be good for him. It was. Lucas was finding bits of his old self again. He was volunteering, giving haircuts to people without homes. He went on more mission trips. His fellow students and teachers talked about how well Lucas got along with everyone. He was kind of like the glue of any social group. Just a nice guy. His grades were lacking though,

and he was put on academic probation, and that summer, he went back to live with George. And Becky hated it. He hated it all, so she took her kid and she moved out. George literally didn't care. He didn't care to pay child support. He didn't even care to see his kid, but he used this event and spun a story to make himself look good.

He told Lucas, Becky left. Becky left because she was fed up with you, constantly leaving the toilet seat up. It's your fault. And because I'm a good best friend, I covered for you. I said it was me that kept doing it and she was pissed and she left me. She said, I can't be with someone that can't even put their toilets down. And I'm fucking heartbroken. She won't even let me see my kid. George would tell any girl that he came across. I'm sad, I'm traumatized, I'm a

broken man. My girlfriend left and won't even let me see my kid. She's evil. I pay her every single month child support because I want the best for my kid. And it worked. George would win a lot of sympathy and ultimately he would get laid, which is what he wanted. So now we got George and Lucas living the bachelor life. They just waste their days away, drinking, taking drugs, watching porn. Lucas said during this time, George started gravitating from just kinky porn to wanting to watch violent rape scenes and even snuff films. He was obsessed with anything and everything, sex.

He made a game of trying to catch Lucas masturbating at night, which is just so odd. He was obsessed with anything and everything, sex. He made a game of trying to catch Lucas masturbating at night, which is just so odd. He would burst into the room. Ah, Kacha, let me see the penis. Sometimes he would burst in on Lucas in the bathroom. George would sometimes put on a skimpy bikini and dance around the apartment. Lucas, look at me, look at me dancing, look at me shaking my butt. And if Lucas even remotely looked in that direction, George would sit down

and beret him for being an insert homophobic slur. And then he would force Lucas to watch porn with him. Again, I'm just saying I don't know. I feel like George likes Lucas and is suppressing it or something. He keeps wanting to see him lose his virginity, wants to catch him masturbating, none of this is normal friend behavior. George would also bring home new girls and have sex with them in front of Lucas. It's hard to say whether or not George wanted to make a carbon copy of himself, mold Lucas into a mini-George, or if he wanted to fuck him.

Or both honestly, I don't know. Regardless, it was working. Lucas starts drinking, he stops going to church, and instead, he filled his Sundays with violent graphic porn. He also tried to get on George's good side by shit talking literally any woman in their lives. How they're all bitches, fucking females. And just like that, summer break goes by.

And Lucas is heading off for his second year in California. Now that meant George had to find another friend, a replacement. His name was James. And George was really laying in on thick, talking about how he had a million dollars in the bank, and how Becky had stolen $60,000 from him when she left. Now let's be real, it was clearly all lies. Nobody believed him. James just remembered a few odd things during his time with George. George loved to act out gay stereotypes and try to hit on James. But then he would try to poke fun and say,

James, you're so gay. Huh, okay. It's just so strange. I mean, we're all thinking the same thing, right? George is secretly gay and has some weird toxic masculinity associated with his sexuality. That's kind of what we're thinking, no? James also remembered, George would not shut up about Lucas.

How Lucas was a bum and a loser and a virgin, but you James, you're a real friend. Oh, and George would watch his favorite movie on repeat. It's called Clockwork Orange. It's a bit of a controversial movie. I'll give you a quick summary. It's about a guy named Alex, who's this leader of this big gang. And because he's in a gang, the movie just really

ups the ante with the violence, the gore, the pain. There's just always bloody fight scenes, bloody rape scenes. George's all-time favorite scene, though. He's went to Alex in his gang. They beat up a dude, practically did that. He's like alive, conscious, but he's beaten gladly. And then they rip his wife in front of him. And he loves it.

He wants to recreate that scene. He would talk to his friends about how he would kidnap a couple, beat the boyfriend until he was nearly dead, and rip the girlfriend in front of him. How that was his fantasy. And in the film, Alex gets caught. And he has to undergo a new form of psychotherapy. Essentially, Alex gets brainwashed into becoming a normal nonviolent person.

He's released from person and lives his life normally without ever thinking about being violent ever again. Now the question of the movie is, is Alex's free will suppressed? Since he's literally been brainwashed. The more a question lies in, if we had some sort of therapy to make everyone follow the law, would it be against people's free will to have them undergo the therapy? Which is honestly a fascinating question. What are your thoughts, right? But that's not the controversial part of the movie.

The controversy lies in the fact that, okay, we get it. Gangs get into fights and they rip women. But why did you have to make the home movie just about violent gore and these violent scenes against women being the most prevalent part, that was kind of the controversy. Like you could have gotten the point across without all of that. The film is so disturbing, it's banned in several countries. But all those scenes were precisely why George loved the movie. He didn't give a shit about the actual movie, he didn't give a shit about the thought provoking questions that left at the end, he just fast-forward to the violent rape scenes.

George even called rape, and I quote, the old in-out in-out. I don't even know. James quickly realized clockwork orange was not just a movie for George. It was a sick fantasy. Whenever James and George went out, George would point at random girls and whisper, hey, you want to get in that part and rip her?

James would just brush it off. The first few times he'd happen, he thought it was a sick joke. Don't keep me at its worst, right? But after a while, James started wondering, why does this guy feel real? George always talked about how he wanted sex with woman that would, and I quote, put up a fight. And he said, it's no fun getting it from someone who'll just give it up. Whenever a girl hit on George, he hated it. He didn't care for her. He said it's no fun when it from someone who'll just give it up. One of her girl hit on George, he hated it.

He didn't care for her. He said it's no fun when she's actually into it. Side note, around this time, George gets a new girlfriend named Lori, and he ends up moving in with her, because he can't really afford his own place. And George is great at turning on the charmat first. He's this nice guy. I mean, Lori was raped when she was 15. So he started the relationship acting as if he was this guy that cared about her healing, that cared so deeply for her, it was, had this sole connection that he wanted to protect

her, and to really mend her broken heart. He was affectionate, he bought her gifts, he took her places. But as soon as she fell in love, he flipped a switch. He starts degrading her, humiliating her in front of her friends and family, about her looks. He accused her of cheating on him all the time, and oddly, he wanted her to match his outfit. I know what you're thinking.

I'm thinking Disney couple. No, not that. Not just in color. Like, oh, you wear jeans in a white shirt, and I'll wear jeans in a white shirt. But if he was wearing basketball shorts and a big loose t-shirt of his, she would have to wear his basketball shorts and a corresponding big t-shirt of his. Which again, nothing is wrong with dressing like that. But with everything

that we've already talked about, it's almost like George wants to create a mini-me in his partners and his friends. It's just weird. George also constantly called all women, Chizin Hoorers. He manipulated Llorian to having anal sex with him, and all the while he's talking to Laurie's sister's boyfriend. I know. Okay. What? So Laurie's sister, right?

His girlfriend's sister has a boyfriend and he's trying to be friends with him. His name's Derek. He's like, hey Derek. Now, if you're going to be scum of the earth, maybe you would show people like Lucas and James, people that have nothing to do with your girlfriend. But would you ever dare show that side to your girlfriend's sister's boyfriend? Because that guy's gonna tell the sister,

the sister's gonna tell your girlfriend, no? Yeah. It just would be against your best interest. But he would always say, hey, you wanna go beat up some punks and some chicks? And what did he say? He would shut it down and George would laugh and be like, bro calm down, it's a freaking joke, you know.

I'm just trying to see your reaction. Anyway, did you know my friend from California is a fucking virgin? Fucking loser, am I right? Maybe Lori can have sex with him. Fix the problem. So he suggested that his own girlfriend have sex with Lucas. And she was distraught. She was also more distraught when she found out

that George was cheating on her. She was so devastated she tried to kill herself by taking an overdose of pills. And George did not care. He left Lori and moved in with his new girlfriend. But of course, he used Lori's attempted suicide as an excuse for quite literally everything. Late for work, sorry boss boss going through a rough time, my ex-girlfriend just tried to kill herself.

Sai for speeding officer, my ex-girlfriend just tried to commit suicide. It's been a lot recently. The audacity, I can't even. Now Lucas comes back and he's developed his own fetish during his time away. So the first time he left from George, he's getting back to his groove, volunteering and stuff. The second time time he left from George, he's getting back to his groove, volunteering and stuff. The second time, he comes back a little weird. Lucas becomes obsessed with heels,

red heels. He would buy them and masturbate while holding the heel up against his penis. But what's worse than that, this part is not a fetish, but a crime. Lucas started fantasizing about having sex with, no, being nine year olds.

Lucas also started cursing, and it was almost so forced, it was practically every other word in every sentence he said. It was overkill. He stopped talking about God and helping people, and he would just sit there and talk about sex. That was the only thing on his mind. He loved making fun of women, calling them derogatory names, and just constantly thinking about sex. So now with this new and changed Lucas, the two start going wild. Let me give you

an example. One time they see a woman having car trouble. She couldn't get her car to start. George approaches her and is like, hey, you need some help? Listen, neither George nor Lucas knew anything about cars, but that didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The young woman was attractive and that's all they cared about. She declined the offer. No thanks, I got it. And as she's walking off George nudges to Lucas, let's...

Lucas is shocked. And George notices, and of course he tries to play it off as a joke. Lucas, I'm just messing with you. God, California made you so stuck up. And Lucas said at that time he felt partially disappointed and partially relieved. The next day, George married his girlfriend Bonnie. Yeah. And things really just start going downhill from there.

Lucas couldn't go back to school because it's great, so his dad ends up giving him a job at the company he owns. It's called motorcycle accessories warehouse. Lucas gets a company car he can drive, even George is given a job there. They're all working for Lucas' dad. Everyone at work hated the two, especially the woman. They were too scared to complain though, since it's the boss's son. Also, I note they said that George and Lucas would be sitting on opposite sides of the warehouse and would just intensely stare at each other. Like not smiling, not making faces and giggling, just intensely staring.

Like they're into each other? They didn't say it was like a intense stare of like, undressing each other, but it was just so intense, it was weird. Yeah. Are they into each other? Do they hate each other and want to kill each other? Are they giving each other the death stare? We don't know. Lucas would also make incredibly inappropriate comments regarding his female co-workers. He talked about how he needed new bitches to have sex with. By the way, Lucas is still a virgin. But he loves saying things like find him,

fuck him, and forget him. What happened? That's so strange. Yeah. I guess. He's trying to impress the other kid. I think that and maybe he's getting so pent up that it's turning into aggression. I'm not really sure because even though he's I mean, he's always wanted to impress George. I don't know what that shift is. That's how I was telling you. I don't see the progression in its terrifying. I don't really know what happened

Like what clicked in his brain that was like, oh my god. Now that was his new motto in life about woman I guess females and if his co-workers ever pissed him off He would just say I'll have you fat bitches fired These remarks actually got him fired. So his dad told him to leave now without a job Lucas would spend all of his days with Georgian Bonnie, and they would just watch porn videos like they were sitcoms, just constantly, whatever they were doing, porn was in the background. Lucas starts getting incredibly sexually frustrated.

On top of that, Georgian Bonnie would constantly have loud sex in front of him, sometimes in the room like just everywhere. All Lucas could think about was sex. Georgie even suggested you seem tense. Why don't we go looking for a victim? For the old in-out in-out. Lucas agreed. And the two of them start planning out a brutal rip. At least five to six times a day, they would talk about it. Disgusting in great detail. How to do it, find the perfect victim, how to not get caught. They settled on the fact that in order to minimize the risk of getting arrested,

they would have to murder their victim. It was the only way. They would people watch, George would lean over and whisper in Lucas' ear. You could see and I'll caress. Lucas would eagerly nod, but they couldn't find a good opportunity. There were always too many witnesses.

For months, they tried to kidnap and rape someone and always a person or a man would appear out of nowhere. They came close a few times though. Once they were driving down a residential road and they see this little girl walking on the sidewalk. They rolled on their window and they say, hey, you need a ride. And she's thinking, what the heck? Creep, stranger danger, and immediately starts running away. Thankfully, they didn't chase her, but they did fantasize about how they would have raped her. They even put a steak knife in their glove box just in case. They were prowling the clubs for a victim, but since there were always too many witnesses, they started frequenting a nice jogging area called Garden of the Gods. A lot of women would

jog there by themselves. It was perfect for them to find a victim. They had a plan. They would find a woman that they wanted to rape, lightly hit her with their car. And she would be probably sprawled out on the pavement in pain, and they would pretend to help her, but in reality they would just drag her, shocked, confused, and injured into the car where they would take turns raking her. And that's exactly what they attempted to do. They spotted a young girl around probably in her late teens, potentially under age. This is a three in the afternoon, by the way. And they thought, okay, she's perfect.

She's blonde. Three p.m. Yeah. She's perfect, she's blonde. They loved blonde girls. All we have to do is hit her lightly with the car. And like we said, pretend to help her. George was driving. He purposely pulls over into the bicycle lane

and hits the girl. She flies forward and she's now sprawled out on the side of the road and Immediately George jumps out. Are you okay? Are you okay? Lucas for some reason is hesitant to approach. She just seems stunned 18-year-old Amber Gonzalez was not scared. She was fucking pissed She only had superficial wounds on her knees and her arms. Thank God, but she was angry What the hell were you doing? I was running in the bike lane. I'm not even close to the road. What the fuck is wrong with you? wounds on her knees and her arms, thank God, but she was angry. What the hell were you doing?

I was running in the bike lane, I'm not even close to the road. What the fuck is wrong with you? And George ignored her and just kept asking, are you alright? Are you alright? And tried to grab her arms for the injuries? Do you need a ride to the hospital? No, my dad's a park ranger and if you want to help, you can help me find my $200 sunglasses that flew off my head.

George gave up trying to convince her and figured it wasn't worth the trouble if her dad really was a park ranger. So the two guys made a whole deal of trying to look for the sunglasses, and they get back into the car. And at first, George pretended to be pissed off that Lucas didn't help pull through. Why were you being so scared? Just throw her in the car next time. But they quickly get over it, and they start giggling instead.

Did you see the look on her face? She was so scared. The same day, they would find their victim. Well, not before they tried vaping Bonnie's friend. Yeah, George's girlfriend and the mother of his child, her friend. They tried to rape her. They tried to kidnap her. They're like, hey, Rachel, do you need a ride home?

It's late at night. She's like, no, why do I need a ride home from you guys? I'm fine. No, we insist we can take you home. She kept saying no, the energy was weird. They headed out that night, pent up and angry. They were like, why didn't she just say yes? Why isn't she just trust us? They go to the clubs, they're met with failure, no success. And they were really annoyed. And on their way home, they're trying to comfort themselves. It's okay, we can always try tomorrow. It'll be fine.

And at the red light, they glance over to their right and they see a small red car waiting at the light with them like just a random car. And the driver was a blonde pretty young woman. Should we follow her? Yeah, let's do it. But first I have to tell you about the banana gun. Jackson's story starts with the banana gun and a close potential police shootout. So let me explain. Jackson is the woman in the red car. Now Peggy and Jake are her parents, and when they met they were really young. Peggy thought that Jake was a nice guy, but it was all a facade. Once they moved in together, she realized he was a drug addict.

A drug dealer, he drank a lot, He did drugs all the time. He was paranoid He thought everybody was out to kill him and when he was on drugs He was the most abusive person peggy knew when he was sober. He was the kindest person she knew and in the midst of Jake Struggles with drugs and their rocky relationship peggy gets pregnant and she's thinking well Maybe this baby's gonna change him. Maybe it'll be good for the relationship a little, right? It wasn't Jake felt more trapped than ever Maybe this baby's gonna change him. Maybe it'll be good for the relationship. A little, right? It wasn't. Jake felt more trapped than ever.

He felt suffocated by his responsibilities and the baby wasn't even born yet. So one night Jake comes home angry and he just starts punching holes in the wall. What are you doing, Jake? Please stop. Stop right after calling the police. You're scaring me.

He didn't stop. He keeps going. So pregnant Peggy calls the police and they come outside and they have their guns drawn That is this a hostage situation. We don't know. Jake yells out to them. I have a gun and I'm not leaving this house Jake actually didn't have a gun He rushes into the kitchen and grabs a banana. He paints it black with a sharpie So he has his fruit gun and he grabs a bunch of kitchen knives, and he runs out the front

door to confront the police. This is like in the dead of night, he's holding the banana like it's a gun. And it's a wonder that he's not killed. He's surrounded by cops, many of them who had their guns drawn and ready to fire. Peggy thought that Jake wanted to commit suicide by cop. And he almost succeeded. She ran out yelling, it's not a gun! Jake, look at me, please!

Jake put the banana down! Jake puts the banana down, and he almost succeeded. She ran out yelling, it's not a gun! Jake, look at me, please! Jake, put the banana down! Jake puts the banana down and he was arrested. He promised to change, but it did not last long. He was high out of his mind even in the delivery room when his child is being born and they soon were divorced. Peggy finds a new husband, Bob, and Bob fell in love with not only Peggy, but Baby Jackson as well.

And they honestly had a really cute family. Like they genuinely got their life together. Jackson was hard not to love. She was headstrong, incredibly fun to be around. Growing up, Jackson, she loved sports. She was amazing at swimming. She was the star of the soccer team. People said she was a natural born leader.

She had something in her. She could hype up her classmates. She could hype up her teammates, if there was a new girl on the team, a lot of the times the other girls, yeah, you feel a little threatened. But not Jackson, she would take her in, lift her up, and her teammates had no choice, but to follow her lead. She was the type of teammate and classmate and friend that would never forget your birthday,

even though you just mentioned it in passing just once. She would bring a birthday cake for you even when everyone else forgot. She really was beautiful from the inside and out. She had these beautiful blonde hair and these blue eyes and people said there was just this sweetness to her smile. So when she's in her senior year, something traumatic happens. Her biological dad, Jake, the manana guy, he ends up getting cancer. It's terminal. He has six months to live.

Now up until this point, Jackson knew what happened with Jake. They never were a part of each other's lives. She grew up with her stepdad. She thought that he didn't want to be a part of her life, and she was right. But she's thinking he's going to die soon. I should be there for him and try to get to know him for six months. She got to know her biological dad, but not only that, he had nobody in his life. So for six months, she helped me,

cooks for him, cleaned him up, helped him take his meds, kept him company. He honestly did not deserve her. Jake would eventually die, and Jack Seen's heart felt like it was being ripped to shreds. She watched him in the last days, painfully coughing up blood, and the whole thing just took a toll on her. And so with this broken heart, she enters into a relationship with a guy named Mike Lemmon. I don't know why, but that name is scary. Mike Lemmon was a sourdude, just really bad news, a rotten lemon. He was

a cop, and a bad cop for sure, and he was just a huge asshole to begin with. He wanted Jackson to pay for everything, but he was the one calling the shots. Like he would choose where to eat, what to order, not just for himself but for Jackson, and then expect her to pick up the tab. It was weird. She would just sometimes straight up hand in money whenever he demanded it. He was manipulative, controlling a douchebag. He tried to separate her from her family, which is a classic abuse strategy. Jaxine's parents hated him. But there was no stopping her. She's young and in love, and

she's blinded by the fake facade that Mike Lemmon was showing her. Any time Jaxine did get fed up, she would break up with him, and he would have this sub-story of how he has cancer, and how it's terminal, just playing into Jaxine's trauma with her biological dad's cancer. Wow. Yeah. But the relationship ended when he asked her for a trip to Mexico, probably his last trip ever because he asked cancer.

I say it like that because let's be real, he doesn't have cancer. She paid for everything, and right when they landed, he said, f*** off, I never want to see you again. He stayed in the hotel room that she paid for, probably hanging out and meeting other girls. So Jackson is devastated. She gets back home, she tries to throw herself into giving back and volunteering. She even started dating this new guy named Tim. And that's where she was headed, to Tim's apartment, when she was stopped at a red light next to Lucas and George.

She had no idea that they tailed her all the way to the apartment complex where Tim lived. She got out of the car, walked to the security door to be buzzed into the building. Now this isn't super late at night, it's also not a desolate area, it's a huge apartment complex, so when she sees two guys walking up behind her and they're casually talking, their demeanor is not creepy. She thought they probably live here, or they came to see someone. But then suddenly, she feels herself being yanked from behind. George had grabbed her by the waist and put his hand

over her mouth. Lucas is trying to pick up her legs and they start pulling. She's grabbing onto the door handles for dear life, but it's not opening because it's locked. Jackson is screaming for help and a ton of people hear her, pop their head out their windows, only to see two men dragging her into the car. Jackson tries to hold onto the doors for dear life, but Lucas, at one point, raises his hands above his head, clasped together, like his hands are clasped together. He's holding onto himself. And he essentially karate chops,

smashes his arms down onto Jackson's arms, and it broke her grip. The resident's C-Ge George punching Jackson over and over again in the face while holding her down to try to get her to comply. Residents are screaming, a lot of them are calling 911, screaming, I'm calling the cops, they're running downstairs to stop them,

but they were too late. They have no fear of people seeing them or. Yeah, that's another part that like just is so terrifying. Again, this is not, and not that it would be anybody's fault Except for the two killers or the kidnappers, but it's not a desolate parking lot where nobody's inside Imagine a Saturday night at a busy apartment complex people are walking around people are going out to the clubs They're getting into their cars people are coming over people are eating dinner on their balcony, and imagine you see this. The police arrived and the residents found Jack Seen's wallet found on the ground during

the struggle. They give the license plates and it was easy to track the car back to Lucas. The police were told by Bob Solomon, Lucas's dad, that if the police wanted to see Lucas, he was probably hanging out at George's. Now, the police get there and George and Lucas were there. There's a few hours later. They didn't even try to play dumb. They were like, kidnaped woman, what, that's, what?

No, not ours. Instead, Lucas said, yeah, go ahead, search the car. Wait, they confessed to it? Yeah, in the car, in the trunk, they find Jackson's sweater with smeared blood and a steak knife with blood all over it. The blade of the knife was bent. There were droplets of blood in the trunk, and Lucas' Bible in the back seat. Lucas looked at them and said, oh yeah, we stabbed a girl, and he said it so casually.

That's it, no emotion. Yeah, we stabbed a girl. I think most people would admit to running a red light with more passion than this. And with that, Lucas offered to take the police to where the body was. They get to Foothill's elementary school. And Jackson's body is found underneath a white van. She was naked, lying on the cold pavement, and by the time the police got there, it was too late. She was cold, no heartbeat, and she was dead. George and Lucas sat there in the police interrogation room, telling the investigators,

step by step, on what they did, with zero remorse and zero motion. Jackson's death was one of the most gruesome cases that the detectives had ever worked on. They claimed that once Jackson was in the car, they drove around trying to figure out what to do with her. She's screaming and begging them in the back, begging them not to hurt her. The two monsters said they talked about ripping her, but they kept kept saying to the police they contemplated having sex with her, as

if it was consensual. George claimed it wasn't rape, because under Georgia's threats and then wielding a steak knife, Jackson took off her own pants when she was ordered to, and she manually stimulated him because he was unable to have an erection, which he ordered her to do. He argued that this made it consensual. They took turns raving her. Lucas claims the whole time she was begging them not to hurt her. Afterward, and this is in the elementary school parking lot that they're raping her. Afterward, they opened the door, and in the barren parking lot of the elementary school,

they forced Jackson to get out, naked, and lay on the cold pavement next to the car. They threw her shirt over her head so she couldn't see, and for 20 minutes, they pretended she wasn't there and debated how to kill her. As if they were in some sort of debate team, and Jackson was the audience, they were literally standing there going, no, maybe we should stop her.

But we used to stop her first because I don't really want to do the first stop. How many times do you think we need to stop her for her to die? I think like three? Like this casually. I can't imagine the fear that was running through Jackson at that time. Eventually George grabbed the knife, lifted Jackson's head up by her hair. Her face was still covered by the shirt, but her neck was exposed. Lucas put the knife on her throat and cut about 7 interests across her neck. She didn't scream. She just made a light moaning noise.

They could tell that she was alive and she was breathing. Okay, roll over on your back. Jackson did as she was told because she was hoping the torture would end. Maybe she could pretend to be dead. George grabbed the knife and cut her throat a second time. She didn't scream, and the two guys stood there genuinely confused. How does slashing her neck twice not kill her?

I mean, that's how it works in the movies. And they're talking about it like this. Not like, oh my god, she's not dead, what do we do? But more like, hi, I really thought that that would kill her. The truth is, they didn't realize that they were completely inept, incompetent, disgusting monsters. They were good for nothing, literally. Pulling a victim's head back actually causes the major blood vessels to recede, and therefore, in Jackson's case, they weren't severed. Pushing her head forward would have been more lethal.

In this situation, what they did was cause a world of pain, but it wasn't exactly fatal, at least not immediately, but she was losing blood. So they continued to stand over her naked body and debate what to do next. And the whole time, it's with such a calm, flat tone, as if they're talking about where to grab dinner. There was no panic, no motion, nothing. The two decide that they use the steak knife to stab her chest over and over, taking turns.

They would bring the knife level with their mouths and forcefully jam it on to where they believed Jackson's heart was. Each time she screamed, a faint scream. Despite these injuries, Jackson was still alive. She was moaning, moving her hands. They stabbed her over five times near the heart. Her throat had been slit twice, but the killers weren't done. They knew she was still breathing,

but they couldn't stab her anymore. Not because each time they did it, blood splattered everywhere on them on the pavement, which it did. They just didn't care. They didn't want to stab her again because her knife was bent. So they thought, why not smother her? They start stuffing her shirt into her mouth, but Jackson was fighting for her life. She lifted up her hands weekly to try to fight them moth, but George cut her wrists with the knife

And they were shocked that she was still alive. The first cut was superficial. The second cut on her wrist was so deep It nearly amputated her hand. They decided that they would have to accelerate her death. They forced Jackson to put her hands on her stomach Lucas smashed her shirt into her mouth and George got up and into her mouth and George got up and stood on Jack Seen's hands on her stomach and started jumping to press the air out of her. So she would suffocate quicker. At this point, her hand has nearly been amputated. George is jumping on her hands on her stomach. She was stabbed five plus times and had her throat slit twice. I don't even know how to describe the depravity, the evil that's in these two. It's hard to even consider them human. I mean, they're not human. And with this,

Jackson stopped breathing. She was dead. And she didn't suffocate. She died from prolonged torture. Her wounds weren't initially fatal, but the jumping of the static stomach accelerated blood loss. But the two weren't done. They were worried that since they raped her, their DNA was in her. So they stood there debating. Should we dismember her and take her private parts home to get rid of the evidence?

But the knife is too dull. So instead, they took turns sho her and take her private parts home to get rid of the evidence? But the knife is too dull. So instead, they took turns shoving mud into her private area. They filled her with mud. They thought I would destroy the semen samples. And they were wrong. Experts were still able to retrieve traces of semen. Then the two picked her up. Lucas picked up her legs and George grabbed her hair, and they swung her under a nearby

van. And kept pushing her until she was somewhat concealed. They wiped their hands on Jackson's bloody sweatshirt, threw it in the trunk with the knife, and while driving off, Lucas looked at George and said, Hey, at least I'm not a virgin anymore. And they high-fived each other. So the two of them, they're taken in, questioned, they immediately confess, and they immediately start shifting the blame on each other.

The story of what happened was consistent, but George said, Lucas wanted to do it because he wanted to lose his virginity. Lucas said it was George's idea. They were playing the blame game, as if they would be in less trouble if the other person brought up the idea first. Like no, you still ricked and killed someone it doesn't matter whose idea it was. George showed the most emotion for his egg McMuffick muffin, and also when he thought about going to jail.

He said, nothing this bad has ever happened to me before, killing her was the worst experience of my life. They were tried separately, and Colorado was seeking the death penalty. Now this is infuriating. The defense for Lucas filed a motion saying that the prosecutors should not be allowed to show any photos of Jackson while she was alive. Photos that would humanize her. And the judge fucking granted the motion.

I'm so angry I can't even describe to you how I felt when I... How? How is that even an argument? That's murdered. That's what murder is. You took someone that was alive and you ended their life. So how is that an I don't understand? I will never understand. So during Lucas's trial, his attorney set up a four foot by five foot poster of Lucas and George.

It was a picture of them taken at a party. George is in the front, confident, smirking, and Lucas is in the back shyly smiling. This stayed up in front of the jury the whole time, but the prosecutors could not show a picture of Jackson the victim. I'm sorry, what? Lucas's attorney wanted to argue with this picture that Lucas was the side show, a mindless follower, and George was the one with the idea. He was the one calling the shots. They argued that when Lucas met George, he finally found a friend and would endure any humiliation just to keep the friendship, just to keep the friendship. Side note, it came out during trials that Lucas also showed anger to his dad for firing

him, for sexual harassment. He said, why didn't my dad just fire the woman that led him on? Lucas told the court he was rebuilding his relationship with God and was praying for both George and Jackson and hoped that some good would come out of this. He also claimed that Jackson's death was predestined. He said what I did was wrong, but there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. Jackson was predestined to be re-wrapped and murdered. As bad as it sounds, it was God's will for Jackson to die. It happened regardless of what I wanted. Everybody dies and it's not right to question God. He went on to say about his experience of being Jackson.

I feel guilty about any pleasure that I have at the memory of sex with her, of sex with her, implying it's consensual and not rape. He admitted to masturbating in jail and fantasizing about the rape of Jackson, but he fantasized it wasn't rape, it was just sex. That they had gone on a date and did it in the car after. Who cares? Why was that even matter? Like, everybody knows what you did and you killed her. He's trying to argue that he never wanted to rape anyone. He just wanted to have sex and he was so sexually frustrated. Nobody cares. Nobody cares.

Well, I guess maybe they did, because in the end, Lucas was given life in prison, not the death penalty, and like, listen, I'm not trying to have a moral debate, but I'm just saying that was like the maximum punishment they were going for. So he got life in prison with no parole. George's trial was next, and of course his attorneys tried everything under the sun to try to make up excuses. They actually tried to argue that he had a calcium deficit in his brain, or a calcium deposit in his brain, which caused him to do this. They also tried to blame violent video games and movies. They were just throwing anything hoping it would stick. It didn't stick. George was sentenced to death, but he will

never be executed. February of 2003, the Colorado Supreme Court ordered George be resettanced to life in prison. Both of them are still in prison and are now in their 40s, which honestly is incredibly young and terrifying. And that's the story of George and Lucas. I don't like these questions because I don't want it to seem as if these are good people that just found themselves in a shitty situation. But do you think that they would have killed someone without meeting each other? Do you think this was a fatal friendship or do you think that they would have gone on and still committed? Yeah, because you're saying George was pressuring James it was James, the other guy. James.

James, yeah. Let's kidnap this woman. I hope you guys stay safe and I'll see you guys on Wednesday for the main episode. Bye.