Rotten Mango - #205: Incest Torture Van

Episode Date: October 12, 2022

They needed protection in order to go through with their big plans. She turned to black magic. Sure, it was risky to get dark magic and spirits involved, but their plans were more important.  Their plans were to travel up and down the West Coast with their new van! It was a family van, one that could fit all their biological children in, one that you could sleep in, one that the children were supposed to feel safe in.  It was going to be perfect. The couple had dreams about this day. The day that they could assault their own children in their incest torture van.  Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if comparing car insurance rates was as easy as putting on your favorite podcast? With Progressive, it is. Just visit the Progressive website to quote with all the coverage you want. You'll see Progressive's direct rate, then their tool will provide options from other companies so you can compare. All you need to do is choose the rate and coverage you like. Quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 29 million drivers who trust progressive. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates comparison rates not available

in all states or situations, prices vary based on how you buy. Betta Bing Betta Bing Welcome to this week's main episode of Rotten Mango. I'm your host Stephanie Sue, and she felt like the black magic was going to protect her, which I don't know much about black magic, but it's synonymous with dark magic, which means using magic for evil and selfish purposes. It's that some people who practice black magic will even worship these dark spirits, spirits who should not be worshipped, in exchange for what?

Getting their own selfish wishes granted. Some say, with the use of too much black magic, your body will start to act out. Knows bleeds will become common. You'll experience puking up your insides, bleeding from every single hole, including your eyes, and having convulsions randomly throughout the day. Why? Because all things in life, including magic, are a contract. If you take one thing, you have to pay it back

in another way. But I guess she didn't care about that. She just started practicing black magic. Maybe she felt like protection for what they were about to do was more important. She started casting spells, holding seances to try and contact the dead. One day, she spotted a dead frog in the backyard. And she knew that this meant that they weren't danger. Her boyfriend's nickname was Froggy, and a dead frog in the backyard that could only mean one thing. Mickey was so panicked she knew she had to do something to fix it, so while James, Froggy, was asleep she took a strand of his hair, put a rosary and his hair on the dead frog.

Phew, this is a close one. Surely that means they are protected now, right? You're like protected from what? Well, they had some big plans that would require some extra coverage. They had the van, the torture van, if you will, and now they were on a mission to rip their own biological daughters in the van with all their friends. Yeah, they wanted to be protected while they themselves were the monsters. Welcome to the story of the incest torture van. Now as always full show notes are available at rottenminglepodcast.com.

Now there is a book on this case that honestly is the best deep dive that you will find on this case anywhere, but the book is wildly sexist. So keep that in mind if you decide to check out the book. It's called Rope Burns by Robert Scott, and I will say aside from the shocking sexism and the raging misogyny, it is a well researched book. The material is thorough. I mean you can tell the author put a lot of time and dedication into it. So there you go. Best deep dive you will get, but also you might get your feelings hurt like I did. So now with that being said, let's jump right into it. Mickey's bar trick was a bit unique. It wasn't that she could tell you your shoe size without ever looking down at your feet.

It wasn't that she could down a shot glass full of tequila with no hands. Now those are too predictable of bar tricks, of party tricks. Mickey's bar trick was making all the boys around her disappear. She would do this by loudly talking about how she was a sex worker and had been a sex worker for the past 20 years. If that didn't send the men running, she would then talk about the most grotesque degrading things that she had done in her 20 years sex work career. The things that her clients had begged her to do and share enough. That would send the guys running. But not James. James stuck around. He's a bar patron. And

he made Mickey feel normal. Not only did he praise her for earning money for her children, but he won up to her. He would always say things like, you think that's bad? Let me tell you about the time that I had sex with a dolphin. Okay, believe dolphin, but you know what I mean. This doesn't sound like the start of one of those romantic movies, right? It's kind of weird. It's a weird situation to be in, but it kind of was because the two of them would just fall magically in love. And from there, their lives would spiral into hell. No, literally, they would fall in love and together, they would start in love and together, they would start wiping their own children. And when I tell you about Mickey's life, you

might not ever see something like this coming. It's not one of those situations where automatically you're like, okay, well, that makes sense why this happened. It's weird. Michelle Mickey, Meshad was born in Casablanca, Morocco. and honestly she had a dream of a childhood. First of all, imagine being born in Casablanca, second of all, imagine being born with luscious red hair and deep, deep green eyes. I mean Mickey was beautiful. She was intelligent from the get-go. The Meshads, they traveled around the world because Mickey's dad was a military man. So Michelle, I mean if you met her she just felt wiser than her years. She felt cultured compared to everyone else. It wasn't until the family settled down in Sacramento, California,

that things started getting tense. First of all, Mickey frickin hated it. She was used to traveling the world. She was used to being intellectually culturally stimulated all the time, seeing new things, experiencing new cultures, and now she was stuck in America middle class suburb, and it was just so dull. She had no idea what to even do in Sacramento. She was bored with her life, she was bored with her peers, bored with her classes, generally absolutely nothing excited Michelle.

It was hard for her to even care about something even in the slightest She showed absolute no interest in anything No matter how hard her parents and teachers tried to inspire her it just didn't work Even when she's making friends with people at school she thinks that they're boring their un-culture They've never been outside Seen the world their ambitions are to go to San Francisco and hang out. How can you even compete with traveling the world before you're in high school? So in the end, 14-year-old Mickey drops out of high school and she starts dating this

bad boy named Danny. Now Danny probably had never left the country. He was one of those bad kids that didn't care to travel. He just cared about where his next fix of weed is coming from, but at least Danny was wild. He had a criminal record, he had a reputation for being tough, so it was different, it was forbidden, it was exciting for a change. Mickey starts dating him. Now, Danny was known to hang out with a couple that ran a massage parlor, which was a front for sex, okay. It was a brothel essentially. And Danny starts bringing Mickey around to the massage parlor. She ends up working there. She's 18 at this point. And she was not manipulated into working

there. She really wanted to be there. She knew her strengths in life. She said, you know, I'm beautiful. Men will trip over themselves to pay for my services. Why do I not take advantage of it? Why not make some money? So it wasn't long before Mickey was the top earning massage girl in the entire parlor. She worked there for a few years, raking and money, and then she decided, I need to upgrade. I need to go where the fish are bigger.

So she moves to Nevada in this collection of mobile homes called the Kit Kat Homes. They were grouped together in the desert. They're like trailers. And this is a part of Nevada where sex work is legal, and a ton of people, tourists, truck drivers, they're constantly in and out, so there is no shortage of customers. This is not like a high-end brothel by the way, these are trailer parks next to like a junkyard.

It is not the most romantic place to live or work, there's an agricultural plumbing station next door, but Mickey, she's working hard. She made her room feel cozy, homey, and again, soon enough she was the top earner. She was the most popular girl at the entire ranch. Now it's time for another upgrade. She's now what, in her mid 20s, on top of her game, not only is she hot, beautiful, conventionally attractive, but she had this killer witty sarcasm that made her this full package. So she moves to Mustang Ranch in Reno, Nevada, world-renowned for high-end sex work.

Mickey changes her name to Ruby because of her red hair, and once again, she is at the top of her gang. She's making a ton of money, but she's feeling a little homesick. She kind of misses her family. So she moves back to California to Sacramento with her parents. Where they live with her younger sister, Misty.

And all of them are just this super tight-knit family. Like Mickey would talk to her mom literally every single day. She would take her mom and her younger sister on these lavish shopping trips from the money that she made from sex work, and Mickey still did do sex work. It was just a lot more casual now. She had a handful of clients in Sacramento that she would go on dates with. They would pay thousands of dollars in return for sexual

favors. Mickey had two children, which become very pertinent to the story later, so she had one boy and one girl, and they were by two different men. Mickey said her daughter was the easier child. Mainly because Mickey's son had ADHD and he just needed a ton of professional supervision. A lot of the money that Mickey was earning started going towards specialized therapy for her son. So up until this point, I mean, Mickey seems like a good person. She seems like a good mom who wants to help her children.

She spends a lot of money on them, trying to find good care for them instead of putting all the money to luxuries for herself. She was a decent mother and a decent human being. And Mickey was way ahead of her time. She embraced the fact that she was a sex worker. Even when times were tough for her, she was confident with her job. Mickey never hit it, she never tried to lie to people. She had no shame about her work. In fact, she would even talk to church members about her experience in sex work. And one of her neighbors would lovingly say, yeah, I knew about her lifestyle, but even sex workers have hearts. Just in case that you didn't know, sex workers have hearts Anatomically speaking, of course. So, so, so Mickey had a lot going for her. She's around her family.

She has a community, kids, close friends. She's living her best life until out of nowhere. Her life takes a turn and there's no indication of if something happened that made her spiral. There's literally nothing. She just started spending all of her days at a bar. And this torn this shift in her lifestyle would ultimately send her to prison

for the rest of her life. And it was all because she met a guy at one of those bars, named James The Frog, or just James The Sex Offender. Cause that's what James was known as. And the reason he was known as that is because if you walked into a bar and James was there, after a few shots, after a few drinks, he would get up onto the bar tables and start waving around his sex offender paperwork above his head as if it was a winning

lottery ticket for that week. The guy was an absolute douchebag. Then he would hop down from the table, pull an undraged girl to the side and flashes penis at her while laughing and being overall a menace to society and just being obnoxious. I mean this guy had severe, severe issues and it probably went back to his childhood which we have to dive into since he's the other half to the incest torture van. James childhood was funky fresh. This is like the most accurate depiction of his childhood. James's mom was obsessed with James. Thinks he's God's gift to Earth.

James does not care for his mom's love and devotion because he's too busy obsessing over his dad. Because his dad is a cool guy with 100 girlfriends. No, I'm serious. James spent most of his childhood with his mom and his two siblings. His dad is nowhere in the picture. The guy was cheating on James' mom, Darleen,

the whole time they were married. They finally get a divorce, and knowing this, James still idolized his dad. Like, he barely knew his dad. Meanwhile, he was raised by a single mom, Darleen, who gave him the world. Darleen felt like James was a golden boy who could absolutely do no wrong. She would lie for him, make up excuses for him, even lie to the police about a potential rip and murder. But you know, it all started small. If you even suggested that old James had done something that wasn't perfect, it was always, James? My James would never do such a thing. Anyway, Darleen would get remarried,

and James did have a father figure in his stepfather, but he still idolized his biological father that he never spent any time with. I mean, they straight up never saw each other, but he thought this guy was a hero. James had heard the stories, and that was enough for him. That had his biological dad had moved to a Pacifico, California, and was there with his beautiful

attractive young new wife and was starting a new family. You're like, okay, well, I guess there's worse things in the world to idolize than starting a new, beautiful family. That's not the part that James was obsessed with. He was obsessed with his dad, for the fact that his dad cheated on his new wife constantly, and then he would cheat on his mistresses with other mistresses. James vowed as a kid that he wanted to be like that someday. He wanted the nice house, the fancy car, but most of all, he wanted a shit ton of girlfriends.

He wanted women to stumble and fall before his feet, just tripping over themselves to try and please him. And like why shouldn't they? Because from a young age, James was worshiped by his mom for existing. So like, of course, everyone should treat him the same just for purely existing. I just have a message for everyone, men and women out there. If our moms think we are 100% perfection, it is safe to assume that the rest of the world thinks we are only 0.1% perfection. I just like want you guys to subtract 99.99% of the love that our moms give

Because you know they all be loving us a lot unless your mom is a ruthless immigrant who compares you to our friends children That's a different story. Maybe add like 99.9% of the love Okay, anyway James had a very rare speech impediment, which made his voice really really low. And kind of rough, it was described as croaky. Even by the time that he was 16 years old, he sounded like a full-fledged, six-year-old man. There was a strong rasp to his voice, so everybody at school, they started calling him froggy.

And normally, because of his size, like he was a big dude, and because of his deep voice, people thought that James was a bit intimidating. Even though the name Froggy sounds cute, like Kermit the Frog, a lot of people were scared of James. The only reason that he was kind of popular in high school was because he seemed friendly enough. He smiled a lot, he was fairly quiet. He seemed much more approachable that way. He had this long, shiny blonde hair and these deep blue eyes. So yes, he was quite the lady's man growing up. And he just knew the way to act when he wanted to impress someone. James picked up that if he cursed around the girls, or if he tried

too hard to be a bad boy around the girls, or tried too hard to show off, the girls would talk bad about you behind your back. No girl really liked that. They thought you were a loser. They thought you were kind of an asshole for that. He never wanted to come off as an asshole. Even though he was a large gaping rectum, an asshole with hemorrhoids was the best way to describe James. So the girls kind of flocked to the guy. And James starts dabbling and girls dabbling and crying.

The more he was punished for small incidents, the more he started to rebel. It was this cycle that escalated and escalated until James was caught robbing local gas stations as a high schooler. He was thrown into boys' detention camps for a while, and he was just getting more and more aggressive, even when it came to girls. Gone was the nice, friendly, approachable,

warm, smiling guy, and now he couldn't keep his hands or his eyes off girls. He had roaming hands. He just wanted something. And if he wanted it, he would go after it. And that was including towards people as well. What's roaming hands? You know those guys that are like, oh, let me just pass on by and grab this cup next to you.

And they full on just dry hump you, grow up you and sexually harass and molest you and they full on just dry hump you, grow up you and sexually harass and molest you as they're passing by just grabbing the cup from over there. That's what James would do. He was underage drinking, he was smoking weed. James wanted to be part of the tough kids. So he starts hanging out on Main Street, skipping school, which is how James ended up at Valley High Continuation School in Dublin, California.

Now, after graduating high school, James marries a young woman by the name of a net, and they have a daughter together. And this is like step one to accomplishing his ultimate dream, which is cheating on his wife. You can't cheat on your wife if you don't have a wife. This is really bizarre. Like this guy did not just want a wife. He wanted a wife so he could cheat on his wife.

Hmm, really? That was his dream. That was his goal. Like the father. Yeah, he literally wanted to be on his wife. Hmm, really? That was his dream, that was his goal. Like the father. Yeah, he literally wanted to be like his father. And James did not hold back. He went to the local bars, picked up woman, and it was pretty easy. James was conventionally attractive.

He was an adult with a low and raspy voice that everybody considered sexy. And he had good looks. He attracted the attention of 17-year-old D'Neta Rhodes. Now looking back, D'Neta said that she was dumb for falling for James, so when she was naive, she should have known better. James left his wife and net to marry Dinetta, and even after leaving a net, he still slept with her, which meant that he ended up having another child with her,

and his second wife, Dinetta, was like, what the hell, dude? Somehow, James convinces her. To forgive him, he talks his way out of that one. He was a smooth, freaking talker. He could talk his way out of a sticky jar of peanut butter. So Denetta and James, they move in with James' mom, and I know, this is like a little too late of advice, but you can see a lot in your partner's relationship with their mom. I'm not saying that should deter or end a relationship, but sometimes maybe it should, like in this case.

Dineda said when she moved in with James and his mom, Darlene, she got a firsthand look at how much Darlene spoiled her son. Darlene thought James was God's gift to the world. And I, as his wife, should do everything for him. I should make his bed cook his meals, worship the ground that he walked on. And this is when I was holding down two jobs.

I had a job at Denny's in Pleasanton and then another job at 7-Eleven and James wasn't working at all. But his mom expected me, though wife, to cook and clean after him, when I was the one bringing in all the money. James finally did land a job at a sheet metal company. And I finally sighed, a sigh of heavy relief. But a couple weeks in, he quit for no reason. This guy was allergic to work. So instead of holding down a job, James was the type that would have a new business idea that was going to,

and I quote, make us a fortune. The red flags were just piling on top of one another. The most alarming being, as a full grown man, James still talked about his daddy like he was Jesus Christ himself. It was weird. She knew that he didn't even have a relationship with his dad. They never saw each other. He barely knew the guy. But James would sit there telling Deneda about how his dad had all these different wives, different children by all these different women and he had all these girlfriends and how he was so cool. He openly admitted to Denetta, his wife, that he wanted to have more wives, more girlfriends, and more children by different baby mothers than his dad did.

Denetta said, I thought it was an awfully strange goal. His dad had been married four, five times, and had eight kids. James's admission made me feel really uneasy. Like, what kind of person would even want those things? Denetta soon realized the family dynamic was all sorts of weird. James' mom was obsessed with James, and James was obsessed with his dad. It was a bizarre dynamic. But Deneda was young and in love,

and she ended up pregnant. So she tried to stay with him for a little while longer, just holding on tight, even when he did some really questionable things. Like, he started to hang it out and spending all his time at the bars. To hang out with a biker gang called the Devil's Horsemen. He got super tattooed up in a short amount of time. He got an eagle tattoo, a skull tattoo, a lion's head tattoo, the netta was getting frustrated. James is out there spending all their money, her money, since she's the only one that ever worked on tattoos,

drinks at the bar, and on nonsense. So she confronts him one day, and he just says, well, we could have some more money if you wanted to. She's like, yeah, I kind of want to. All right, let me just call my friends over and they can come and watch us have sex and pay us. And she's like, what? No, that's not what I meant.

Absolutely not. And you just shrug. Then I guess no money for Dinata. Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us.

Wherever we are, whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Why would you break into these apartments? For money, for drugs? Whatever was in there. Why aren't you afraid of getting caught at doing this? No. Who's's gonna catch us? What a police.

It was the height of the crack era, and instead of locking up drug dealers, some New York City cops had become them. I would suit up in my uniform and we're gonna want some drug dealers, and I know how to do it really well. This is the inside story of the biggest police corruption scandal in NYPD history and the investigation that uncovered it all.

Did you consider yourself a rat? 100% I saved my soul just like everybody else does. Listen to and follow the set, an Autosy Originals documentary podcast series now in the Odyssey app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. I'm not a big guy man, but I love being that dirty mother f***er. Deneta would stick around until James's first arrest. Okay, so the story for James's first to rest is there's two versions. In one version, James was at a bar flirting with a woman who was flirting back question mark. And so when James is sick and twisted mind, he's like, oh yeah. That means she has to give me a blowjob before the end of the night because she's

flirting back. But around midnight, the woman turns to James and says, good night, like I'm heading out now. He didn't like that. Why were you flirting with me then? You owe me a blowjob. So he followed her out to the deserted parking lot, unzipt his pants, and ordered her to perform Felatio while he held a gun up to her head. A witness hidden on the other side of the parking lot saw the whole thing, called the police, and then the police reports was a different story. Essentially, the woman with strong was quote, kidnapped and forced to perform filatio.

Honestly, it's weird that there's two different stories. In any case, I'm inclined to believe some assault went down because that's just the type of person that James is. So James initially was arrested, but the charges would be dropped. The woman was drunk when she was assaulted, and she couldn't recall a lot of the details leading up to the assault. So the prosecutor thought, well, the jury is never going to find James guilty. So we should just let him go without any consequences for his actions.

Like, invent Aztec. So the guy gets off with no consequences. Then there was Janet. One night James and his good old buddy John Huff said, they're like, let's hit the bars. Let's pick up some girls. And in walks 35 year old Janet just after 11 p.m. And immediately James and John were intrigued. But the of the two Janet was more interested in James. He's more attractive, more charismatic, he has that deep low voice in the three of them. They would start bar hopping. Different bar, different

hour, right? Now after midnight, Janet's like, I gotta call it a night. Thanks for the great company guys, but I am so wiped. Janet had driven to all these separate locations and she felt like she was way too tipsy to drive home. Thankfully all these bars were in the same like local area. Her plan was go to the parking lot make sure that her car is locked, walk home and then she would come get her car tomorrow. I mean she was so tipsy she didn't even register that James and John were walking out of the bar behind her. She goes to her car, made sure it's locked, looked up and saw James' face right in front

of her. Let me take you home. Let me just drop you off. No, no, it's okay. Like, I'm fine. It's just a couple blocks away. No, I insist. He kept insisting that he'd take her home.

She declined twice, but after the second time, I mean, maybe it was for the best. It was probably safer than staggering a few blocks home, right? So Janet gets into the car with the two guys and starts giving directions to her house, but James is not following them. Instead he's heading out of the city and driving straight into the dark country roads. Janet starts to feel panicked. She's screaming, let me out, I want to go home! The only response that she got from James was, shut up, shut up. He kept driving out of town.

Pulled over in a deserted orchid. Janet's crying now. James doesn't care. He forced throughout the car and made her perform Felicia. He took off her clothes, fondled her, and slapped her around. Janet remembered John took off her clothes, fondled her, and slapped her around. Janet remembered John was just on the side, watching, laughing, and repeatedly saying, shut up and you won't get hurt. After the assault, Janet asked to use the restroom. So she finds a private little spot in the orchid.

She does her business, just out of nature. And while she's urinating, John fired his pistol at her. The bullet buzzed past her ear, and she fell to the ground in fear. John thought it was freaking hilarious. James did not think so. I mean, okay, the scariest thing about this whole story is that John is a separate dude that I feel like committed his own crimes, you know?

Yeah, yeah, of course. But he just kind of disappears later, but this is the type of dude that we're dealing with. James rushes over Rushes everyone into the car and they drive off but John really did make a mistake that night Because the police patrol car was less than a mile away and had heard the gunshot So he was pulling over anyone that seems suspicious and James's car looked freaking suspicious So he pulled over James with John and Janet in the car and this is how Janet was saved from her ordeal She started screaming at the police officer that she had been kidnapped and raped. The two guys were arrested. James pled guilty to kidnapping and forced oral copulation and his sentence was beyond light. Like he had one year in prison, which honestly

he was allowed out during the day he had those prison day pass sleeves and inside the prison he had access to tv's magazines. I mean the guy is living his life in there. The state said, well, we gave him the short sentence in exchange for him registering as a sex offender. So there's that. But James could care less about his sex offender status. He was a bit annoyed that Deneta divorced him while he was locked up.

That was where his real anger was. So he went back home to live with his mommy and Darleen did not mind that her son had sexually assaulted a woman because it wasn't his fault It was Dinada's fault Here like how is it a second-wise fault bear with me and but we're about to do like a cartwheel backflip summer salt Dinada told James that she was pregnant that summer and James was so stressed That he had to go to the bar with his friend to let out some of that stress and he was so stressed that he had to go to the bar with his friend to let out some

of that stress. And he was so stressed that he forced himself onto Janet. He didn't intend to rip Janet because James is so handsome and he had women falling at his feet. He was stressed so stressed. You know, the stress caused him to have a lapse of judgment. For him to momentarily not think straight, make a mistake, and he misunderstood dirty Janet's signals that she didn't want it.

To be fair, Darlene said why did Janet get in the car if she didn't want it in the first place? Anyway, after this, James did not get his life together. He married a new woman by the name of Dita, and he started getting drunk at the bars all day. Bar patrons said that there were two James. There were sober James and drunk James. Soper James was like a generally pleasant, even maybe a charismatic guy, if you will.

Then drunk James, he would not stop talking. He bragged about being a rapist. He ran his math about all the women that he had sexually assaulted, like it was some sort of achievement in life. At one point, James had been indicted in two sexual assaults and convicted of one, but he talked as if he had done it dozens of times, which I don't know why he's bragging about it. And honestly, we have no idea how many unfortunate women James actually assaulted because they never came forward. Anyway, James realized that with this heavy drinking,

that children were kind of annoying. I know it's like kind of a weird connection but he thought more kids meant more money that he didn't have. So originally he wanted all the children in the world by all these different baby mothers because he felt like that was the manly masculine thing to do to spread his seed but then he soon realized well if I have less kids I have more money on alcohol so he went and got a vasectomy. Listen it's quite the responsible decision considering that he's a shit dad, so he was saving a lot of children from heartache, but there was an ulterior motive. James knew that he could still ejaculate, but there would be no discernible sperm in his ejaculations.

Meaning, he wouldn't be able to have children, but also, he could not be traced in that manner by DNA test. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. Crazy.

Sure. Yeah. Well, I don't know of things have advanced, but back then. So James felt this extra layer of protection in case he needed to, I don't know, accidentally people in moments of stress that they wouldn't be able to get his DNA. And in order to celebrate this genius move, James bought himself a purple Harley for his biking, the devil's horseman. He cut his hair short, dyed it purple to match, and he started splurging at the bars.

He started showering his girlfriends and gifs, not his wife or children ever. No, of course not, never for them. Just always his girlfriends. Anyway, James even went back to his foggy name to fit in with the other bikers, and he started to work in as like a balancer for these local bars. He was the menace that needed to be kicked out,

so he wasn't really good at his job because he was the problem. He was the type that would sexually harass girls by exposing his penis to them whenever they walked by. Meanwhile, he had a wife and child at home and multiple girlfriends that he was clearly being unfaithful too. But being faithful was never part of the plan. Which side note, James is in his thirties at this point, he's still getting a lot of younger woman to consensually get involved with him, which I mean sure, he's a manipulating,

smooth-talking asshole, but it is just wild to me because James started to lose his conventionally good looks. He was still a decently well-built guy, but he had lost a lot of it. He had a receding hairline. His teeth had fallen out, like all of them. He had no upper teeth, just only four bottom teeth left. Yeah, and that was not towards um lack of funds. That was not because of a health condition, he just generally had no oral hygiene. That's, yeah. Well, how nasty, no. But women really liked him. I don't know why they liked a man with no oral hygiene, which I don't know.

He must have been really charismatic to make up for it because did you know that making out was someone that has cavities gives you cavities because cavities are caused by a strain of bacteria that you can exchange through saliva. I feel like you can give him one on cavities because cavities are caused by a strain of bacteria that you can exchange through saliva. So I feel like you can give him one on cavities. He's gonna give you a lot more of the cavities. I mean, it's just super gross. I don't know why they were trying to tend. But it was still surprising when Mickey walked into the bar one day, laid eyes on James and decided that they were meant to be together.

According to one version of the story, Mickey walked into the bar, saw Froggy, saw James, and loudly said to her friend while pointing at James, I want that one. Then another version of the story goes like this. Mickey didn't really want to date James, she didn't like men. Okay, so Mickey did like men but she was bisexual. And being a sex worker, it pushed Mickey to be a lot more into women than she was into men. Because of all the disgusting men that she had come in contact with through work,

she wanted nothing to do with men. She even said, I think they're pigs. I think men are pigs because of the way they treat women. Men generally piss me the fuck off. Like, and I'm a ho, I'm a hooker, I'm a sex worker. I've been for the past 22 years of my life, and I'm a ho, I'm a hooker, I'm a sex worker. I've been for the past 22 years of my life, and I'm not changing. So yeah, fuck man.

But it seemed to be an empty threat. Mickey could not resist the balding toothless charms of the tattooed man, Froggy James. Mickey said she fell in love with his striking blue eyes, and he was a real gentleman when he wanted to be. He never judged her for her sex work. In fact, he thought it was admirable for her to do. He never judged her for her sex work, in fact. He thought it was admirable for her to do what she needed to give her kids a better life.

And Mickey was never ashamed of her work by any means. She thought it was nice that a guy finally came around that felt the same way that she did. Mickey felt like James saw her for who she was, which was a confident woman who dressed well, carried herself well, was well spoken, and was in great shape at 37 years old. Which is kind of why I was confusing that she liked James. So James is 35, wore greasy t-shirts jeans, and these old beat-up biker boots every day. He was very, like, not nearly as confident and as loving as Mickey, he seemed shy, reserved, strange. And he typically dated in the Leonardo DiCaprio world, meaning she can't write

as purple Harley, unless she's 25 and under. But James made an exception for Michelle, because let's be real, he probably knew that she was too good for him, and he was lucky she was even paying him the attention. Now the two of them, they start hanging out at the bars. Mickey's blowing through a lot of her money. She would go there and spend unreasonable amounts of money on alcohol. She would buy drinks for the whole bar for random people, she would generously tip the bar staff. Obviously, she was a very generous person and this is very in line with her, but I'm just not sure why she started spending all her time at the bars to begin with.

She had this nice home and a nice suburban area, a nice car, a nice income, she was part of a bunch of different communities. She had friends It just seemed a bit strange that she started blowing off all her friends to hang out out these CD bars The speculation was that maybe Mickey started feeling lonely despite seemingly having it all in any case She was the life of the bar. She was beautiful. She had this big personality and a big generous wallet Everyone seemed to love her. They knew Mickey never drank She never drank beer. Only champagne.

So she would get drunk off champagne, lose any sort of filter that she had. And her favorite conversation at the bar was to talk about sex work. Because she'd been doing it for 20 plus years and she had some crazy stories. But I think just to reiterate, I think it was taking its toll on her.

Bar patron said that Mickey openly talked about how she hated men for their violent sexual nature. She ranted about how she preferred women as companions and as partners now. So maybe it was just 20 plus years of work that we're getting to her and she just couldn't take it anymore. She ranted about how men were so violent and evil and just degrading, which this makes it all so much more confusing that she decided to fall in love with James.

But maybe love knows no choice. It's just weird. Mickey could have chosen someone that wasn't sadistic and evil, like just a normal dude. And she could have settled down, she could have chosen a woman to fall in love with, but she freaking chose James Divaggio, a man with no oral hygiene. I guess I'm just confused, because I can see why James liked Mickey. I just can't see why Mickey liked James, but they fall in love. James moves in with Mickey and immediately her life takes a turn for the worse.

James' biker buddy started hanging out around the house too, causing noise disturbances, overall being a nuisance to all the neighbors. Mickey didn't like meth before, but now with James, she was doing meth all the freaking time. She was spending more money than ever on booze and meth, not just for herself and James, but for all of his biker buddies. Mickey stopped going to church, she stopped hanging out with all her friends. If they ever called she would just say, oh I'm too busy and slam the phone off. She lost all her friends, she lost all her clients, the meth was making Mickey very, very skinny and it wasn't good for business. She lost

all her looks to the drugs. The money was out the door with her clients and suddenly Mickey found herself applying for welfare. And all those welfare checks, they would just go straight into James's pocket. Mickey had to sell all her nice expensive furniture in the yard sale for barely a fraction of their worth just to get by and pay rent. But even then, that was just one of the months. The next month, it wouldn't work out. Mickey and James were evicted from their home. Well, from Mickey's home.

And that's not all. While Mickey is losing everything, including her family, because they're just so confused. Like, what's so great about James that she's willing to stay with him after all of this? Mickey loses everything, and James is obsessing over his latest fascination. His latest fantasy. To be the next Gerald and Charlene Gallagher, we've talked about them on the pod before, and they were convicted of kidnapping, whipping, and killing multiple girls. Charlene would recruit young girls to be Gerald's sex slaves and they operated out of their van in California, where Charlene would use her youth and beauty to lure young girls

who felt like, oh, this one is trustworthy, and then Gerald would rip them. In the two years that they were active, they had over 10 victims, which side note, infuriating, but even though Charlene was evil, she did a deal to testify against Gerald in exchange for being released after 16 years in prison Just 16 years. So she's like out and about. Anyway, James was obsessed without doing the couple He felt like that could be him and Michelle and he tried to get Michelle on board And this is where I completely lose respect for Michelle because up until this point I mean we were all kind of rooting for her, no? Yeah, right? respect for Michelle because up until this point, I mean, we were all kind of rooting for her no. Right. Well, that is tell Michelle and James wrote a teenage friend of Michelle's own daughter, Nancy Baker. Now, Nancy Baker was barely a teenager, honestly. She was just 13 years

old. She was best friends with Michelle's daughter. So, of course, they're all very familiar with one another. And one day, Michelle goes over to Nancy's place and asks, hey, Nancy, you want to come run a few errands with me? Okay, it was a bit out of nowhere. It was a bit random, especially considering Mickey's daughter wasn't going to be there, but Nancy just assumed Mickey needed help putting away the groceries or something. So she shrugged, got into Mickey's van, and the two of them, they start driving around aimlessly.

It was odd, but again, Nancy didn't say anything. 20 minutes later, they pull up in aimlessly. It was odd, but again, Nancy didn't say anything. 20 minutes later, they pull up in the driveway of a nice suburban home. And Michelle is like, let's go, let's go inside. Okay, from the outside, the house looked nice. I mean, this is a neighborhood that looked very family friendly. There were kids out playing in the yards.

It was actually the house of James' friend, who let James crash whenever they weren't home. But they had no idea that James had planned to do these types of things in their empty house. Michelle rushed Nancy inside and now it was just Michelle, James, and 13-year-old Nancy alone in the house. Michelle starts the conversation. Nancy, let's do some math. Oh, no, I'm okay, thank you. Oh, come on. This will be the last time you have to do math with us. So Michelle had offered Nancy meth before,

and Nancy had taken it because I don't know. This is her mom's best friend, a full-on adult, someone that she trusted. She was curious. She's 13. Best friend's mom, you mean? Yeah, best friend's mom. A full-on adult, someone that she trusted,

and Nancy was 13 and curious. She took the meth last time, Michelle offered, and she ended up hating it, which is really why she didn't want to do math this time, but Michelle is pure pressuring her. Or I guess, adult pressuring her? So Nancy gives in and gets high on math. From there, Mickey kept whispering and Nancy, I need to tell you something in private. So the two of them left to go into one of the bedrooms, where Michelle forced Nancy to take off all her clothes.

Just to be clear, again, Nancy is 13. Nancy is Michelle's daughter's best friend. Nancy clearly did not want to take off her clothes or even do a math with Michelle and James. So Nancy is naked now and Michelle is demanding that Nancy rub her breasts. That's what she said, quote, rub my breast. And Nancy refused. So Mickey getting irritated grabs Nancy, who is completely naked, pushes her back out into the dining room where James is.

And Nancy is trying to cover up her nakedness, but James forces her arms open so he could study her naked body. Then he dragged her back towards the bedroom while he forced her arms out again, again, to study her naked body. Meanwhile, Michelle Nell down and started licking James' anal opening while he digitally assaulted Nancy. Nancy said James threw her on the bed and started assaulting her, and then Mickey would sit on the edge of the bed masturbating and moaning daddy-o-daddy. Again, this is her daughter's best friend. Then James took a break from assaulting Nancy, Mickey performed a filetio on him,

and while Nancy was sitting there traumatized, Mickey tried to tell her that it was now her turn. So Nancy's refusing, Mickey tries to force her head down onto James's penis, but James was in no mood for games. He threw Nancy back onto the bed and moved her again. Meanwhile, Michelle is masturbating while watching. Finally, when they were done, they let Nancy use the restroom to clean herself up and get dressed. And while she was vulnerable,

alone in the shower, Michelle walked in with a gun in her hand. And she asked Nancy, do you know what will happen if you ever tell anyone about this? Yes, I'll be in trouble. Yeah, and I'll personally kill you if you tell. Nancy felt like Michelle was very serious. Both her and James seemed completely unhinged, and though Nancy would go to the police eventually, she would stay quiet for a while. And James and Mickey were just getting started. Just two weeks after assaulting Nancy Baker, they drove to Reno, Nevada, with the sole purpose

of finding another victim. It was just after 10 p.m. when they spotted 20-year-old Juanita Rodriguez finishing up night class at Morrison Business College. So Juanita was originally from El Salvador, and she had recently immigrated to the U.S. She spoke a little bit of English, she's working hard to make, ends meet, she had a full-time job, she's enrolled in evening classes to get a business degree. And after a full day of work in classes, she's freaking exhausted. She's just trying to walk to the corner of the street so that her boyfriend could pick her up.

And she was waiting when this dark green minivan slowly drives by and makes this incredibly slow awkward U-turn before coming back around to pass her again. awkward U-turn before coming back around to pass her again. It was strange, but I mean it's moving slow, she's not like that alarmed by it, she's just standing on the sidewalk. And maybe she wanted to react, but before she could, the door flew open, James Devazio jumps out onto Juanita, grabbed her, and Juanita just started screaming, what have I done, what have I done? And in the struggle, James slipped on the curb, banged his and Anita just started screaming, what have I done, what have I done? And in the struggle, James slipped on the curb,

banged his knee, he started cursing, and he had managed to hold onto Anita's backpack the whole time. Now Mickey is driving the van. First some reason she doesn't stop the car. She just expected that James would drag Anita inside into the moving vehicle, so she's slowly moving away from the scene

while James and Anita are struggling in the middle of the street. It was honestly a good show. James starts getting angry and he's just yelling at Juanita. He's yelling at Mickey, telling Mickey, stop you fucking bitch, stop the man! Very slowly, very awkwardly, the van comes to a stop. James drags Juanita into the back, and all she was still repeating was, what have I done? James yelled at her, shut the fuck up, or I'll kill you. And once they were inside, James immediately started forcing Juanita to take off her clothes

and he too got completely naked. And he yelled at her, you're gonna enjoy this. Juanita later said she was shocked and confused. He had inserted his finger into her anus and had her do the same to him. He moaned as she did it and he made her kneel down and perform filetio on him. He withdrew in time so that he could ejaculate on her face. Whenever Mickey turned around to see what was going on, James would just snap at her. Turn the fuck around and watch the road and keep the speed down.

When they finally found a quiet spot, James continued his intense sexual assault on Juanita. Juanita said, she was just trying to make sure to do anything so that she didn't die. She tried to talk to both of them, but primarily Michelle. She thought it would be easier to gain Michelle's sympathy as a woman herself, but Michelle just kept ignoring her. And out of desperation, she just started asking all sorts of random questions. She's like, have you ever been in love? Shut up, you asked you any questions.

Please, please help me. I have a mother who's gonna miss me if I'm killed. Now mind you, Juanita is pleading with Michelle while she's being assaulted by James. James does not care. Neither of them seem to care that she's a fool on human being. Please, I have a baby. Okay, Juanita was lying, but this was the first time

Mickey seemed to be interested in what she had to say. How's your baby? Nine months old? Mickey asked a few questions about Juanita's fake baby. Juanita lied really well. Like there was no doubt that she was telling the truth. And maybe she did win some sympathy, because after hours of the assaults and being degraded by James, Juanita begged them to let her go.

And for some reason, they did. to let her go. And for some reason, they did. They let her go. She was allowed to put her clothes back on. They dropped her off in an isolated area and they drove off. Juanita was allowed to put on her clothes and she was hurrying it up. She had no idea if this was a game or if they were just going to change their minds. She just wanted to get out of there. She rushed to put her clothes back on, stepped out the van, and the van drove off.

She waited, and waited. And finally, she started booking it. She ran onto the highway, frantically waving for cars to stop and help her. She managed to flag down a car full of young people who drove her to the Sheriff's Office, which, side note, things like this always get me so nervous because you never know who they're going to run into. You don't even know if there is going to be another rapist on the road. And even though she was clearly shaken up, traumatized, and her English was not the best, Juanita described everything in great detail to them, particularly about the rapist appearance.

He was a heavy-set man with a receding hairline, salt and pepper brown hair, and she described his voice as deep and raspy. Juanita underwent a rape kit, and what they found was interesting. There was evidence of semen, I mean there was clearly semen, but there was no DNA to extract. So the only clue that they were left with was that this rapist had a vasectomy. So while the investigators are working hard to capture Michelle and James, which side note, I mean if asectomy is still a clue to lead you to doctors because this is like an operation, this is not something that you snip at home, right? But it was going to take a lot longer. And meanwhile Michelle and James had a stroke of brilliance.

They decided to put a silver stripping on the exterior of the Green Mini van to alter its appearance. And James was confident that nobody would recognize the van anymore. He even remodeled the interior. He got rid of the van seats in the back, added a mirror to the ceiling of the van so that he could have a better view of the assaults, and then that month. Michelle and James drove to Oregon on a road trip, and they took Michelle's 12-year-old daughter with them. Let's call her Emily. During the road trip to Oregon, Emily fell asleep in the back and, you know, she felt comfortable enough she was with her mom and her mom's boyfriend.

Why wouldn't she feel comfortable? She had no idea of what happened to her best friend Nancy with her mom. So she fell asleep, woke up to something rubbing on her leg and it was James' hand. Immediately she starts crying and she screams mommy make him stop mommy but Michelle kept her eyes on the road and she coldly told her daughter no I don't want him to stop. Then Mickey drove off the freeway to a secluded area and she helped hold her daughter down and even help remove her pants and underwear so that James could perform oral sex on 12-year-old Emily Michelle's own daughter.

She was holding her down while she was raped. Afterwards they drove to a motel in Oregon and they forced Emily to take drugs while they took turns raping her, Michelle herself raped her own daughter. And I guess I had so much fun engaging in rape and incest, so they planned another trip. They were going to take not just 12-year-old Emily, but 13-year-old Nancy Baker, down the California coast, as a cute little family outing, but instead they would rape the two girls nonstop the whole trip. Allegedly, Emily turned to her own mother and said with a voice filled with what I

imagine is betrayal and trauma. She said, you know they told me to watch out for people like that? I just never yes it would be my own mom. The girls were of course threatened to keep quiet. Michelle said she was serious. She would easily kill them both if they tried talking to the police. She went on to brag about how she killed before. She was threatening to kill her own daughter. Listen, we can't be sure of Michelle's claims. I mean, the meth was eating at her brain. She was saying a lot of bizarre stuff, and that does not excuse her behavior, by the way.

I'm just testifying to her credibility of her claiming that she had killed people before. They are gonna kill people, but I don't know if she did before. Now, this trip apparently went so well that James wanted to target another one of their children's friends. This time, it was his daughter's friend, 17-year-old Patty Wilson. Patty, again, was very comfortable around James and Michelle.

I mean, think of your friend's parents. You would feel safe around them to a degree. They run into Patty while she's working at the arcade. They ask her to come to their van to do drugs during her lunch break. I mean, it was kind of a weird request, but it kind of also made Patty feel like an adult. Like she could have fun with them, you know? Like these adults want you to do drugs with them? You're not like other 17-year-olds. So she went into the dark green van and James was driving this time. Mickey was in the back with Patty doing drugs. And out of nowhere Michelle tries to push her down onto the floor of the van and attempted to put handcuffs on Patty. Now Mickey's body is so weak from all the meth usage, so Patty easily elbowed her and broke free.

James starts getting antsy from the front, he pulls over, leans back into the back of the van and punches Patty square in the face. Patty said, I didn't know you could actually see stars when you get hit. I passed out for like 5 minutes. And the next thing I knew, I woke up with my hands handcuffed behind me, Mickey is now driving, and James was yelling at her to just stop anywhere that they could. They needed somewhere super secluded, they needed to find a good spot. As Michelle drove James forced Patty to perform Felicia and he kept yelling at her to quote act like you enjoy it.

But obviously patty is not enjoying it. She just kept crying. And this is heartbreaking, but she cried, stop I can't do this it reminds me of my stepdad he used to force me to do this. And that kind of ruined it for James for some reason. I mean he was doing the same thing so I don't know why I was giving him the ick but it gave him the ick. Michelle pulled over in the hills, the sun is setting now. She got into the back and she went down on patty. James sat nearby and masturbated. When

they were finally through, they took naked photos of patty and they let her put her clothes back on. And then silence. James looked at Michelle, looked at patty and said, well, we can't tell you back to work because I don't wanna go to jail. I mean, immediately, Patty understood what that meant. She's begging. If you let me go back to work and don't hurt me or kill me, I won't tell. I'll make up some dumb line to the police

as long as you let me live. I'm not gonna tell anybody. Mickey and James are staring at each other, just thinking it through. For what felt like an excruciating long time. Finally, they agreed let her go. Listen, you're gonna tell the police that you were kidnapped by three teenage boys from the parking lot of the arcade.

The boys took you out into the hills and they raped you, and to make it more convincing, make you reached over and ripped Patty's shirt. Then the couple dropped Patty off at a gas station and just drove off. Now at first, Patty did go with the lie. She told the police that three boys had ripped her, mainly because she was terrified James is her friend's dad, so James and Michelle knew where she lived. But it didn't matter, because while this was happening, Michelle's own daughter, Emily and Nancy, were finally ready to go into the sheriff's office and tell their stories.

So now, the police have a name and a face to the culprits that ripped not only Emily and Nancy, but presumably Patty and Juanita. They still had to look for the couple though, I mean they had their name, they had their van, but technically they could be anywhere in California or even Nevada at this point. And they were. For Thanksgiving that year, James and Michelle had nowhere to go, so they decided to visit James' daughter in Pleasanton.

They pick her up, checked into a hotel, the three of them, like it's supposed to be nice family bonding. And James had some very special bonding in mind. While in the hotel room, James sat his daughter down and asked her, would you like to torture people? Yeah, what? I've never tortured anyone before. Yes, but wouldn't it be cool to see the fear in their eyes? Can't listen, have you ever killed anyone? You know, you never really know if it's good unless you try. You want to go hunting with me?

His daughter starts to feel uneasy, like, what do you mean hunting? You know, when you go and stalk someone to kill? Now she was scared, she wanted to change the subject. I mean, she never really saw her dad too often, so the fact that he drove all the way over to see her. And now they're alone in this hotel room together, and he's asking her if she had ever killed someone before. It was creepy. She stopped responding and James asked, if I ever killed someone, would you hide me out? I guess it depends on the situation, dad.

James grilled her a bit more and then went to go take a shower. Meanwhile, Michelle sat down, looked at the little girl in her eyes, and said as casually as possible. I guess it depends on the situation, Dad. James grilled her a bit more and then went to go take a shower. Meanwhile, Michelle sat down, looked at the little girl in her eyes and said as casually as possible, as if she was just making a simple statement. Your dad's gonna have sex with you. James' daughter was floored. She started stammering, no, no, no, he can't.

He's supposed to be my dad. He's supposed to love me. But sure enough, when James got out of the shower, he was wearing only shorts, went right up to his own daughter and started fondling her. She starts crying for him to stop, but he kept trying to justify his actions by saying, well, Michelle won't let me have a world sex with her, so I have to have it with you. He pushed her onto the bed, pulled off her pants and underwear, and forced his head between

her legs. She said she just remembered looking at the clock the whole time and it lasted 45 minutes while he assaulted her. She also remembered that Michelle was performing Felicia on James while James was assaulting her. And afterwards, James just went to go buy everyone's soda and chips like nothing had happened. Thankfully, after this, they dropped his daughter back off at home and they went looking

for their next victim. This time, they wanted to prep a bit better. They went to a local sex shop, bought handcuffs, gagging devices, dildos, and an audio tape called submissive young girls. During the shopping spree, they also bought two curling irons. And then they went on the hunt. And for a while, they thought they would be going home empty handed. but just before 7am, they saw Vanessa Samson walking to work. She worked as a secretary for a local insurance office, and she had been saving up every paycheck to get a car. But for now, she had to walk.

She was just walking on the sidewalk, when in the blink of an eye, a green van pulled up behind her, the door opened, she was dragged inside and that was that. Mickey was driving speeding towards the highway while James was in the back tying the nest up with rope He would assault her for hours while Michelle drove not only did he use his hands and his penis But also the new sex toys and the curling irons and he was aggressively listening to the audio tape submissive young girls for hours on end Michelle drove the van to Lake Tahoe. And you're like, what? That is so random.

So Michelle had a court appearance for a bad check that she tried to cash, and she just wanted to go to her court appearance. Like, listen, her priorities are all sorts of messed up. She didn't care about being her own daughter or trying to kill girls, but God forbid she missed a court date. Like you are so beyond that. Like she wanted to go. She clearly had no idea that her own daughter had turned her in and there was a warrant out for both of their arrests. They drive to Lake Tahoe, where the majority

of the car ride James assaulted Vanessa, and when they finally pulled over and is secluded spot, the two of them talked about how they wanted to experience the thrill of killing together. So they wrapped a rope around Vanessa's neck. They each grabbed one end of the row, pulling it at the same time to tighten it, so that they could experience death at the exact same moment together. They pulled and pulled until Vanessa was no longer breathing. They unceremoniously dumped her body into a local ravine and checked into a hotel for the night. Making wanted to get some rest while prepping for her court appearance the next day, meanwhile James went to the casino and that is how the two of them were arrested.

By checking into the motel, the authorities had been alerted and when they got to the hotel sure enough, the dark green van was parked in the parking lot. They were arrested. And not too long after, Vanessa's body was found close by. It was easy to put two and two together. The authorities had found drugs and guns in the couple's hotel room, as well as blood stains and hair samples in the car that matched Juanita and Vanessa. They found the curling iron that was used to assault Vanessa over and over again, and

Vanessa's prints were all over the inside of the van. So now the two, they were not only facing kidnapping and rape charges and charges but murder charges and they were looking at the death penalty. And maybe James, if he was so obsessed with Gerald and Charlene's case, he should have foreseen this, but like Charlene, Michelle tried to cooperate with law enforcement and downplay her role in the murder. She was trying to be like Charlene and say she too was a victim of James. It didn't really work though because her own daughter testified that she was raped by both of them and Michelle was the one that lured girls into the traps. Both James and Michelle were found guilty of first-degree murder.

They were sentenced to the death penalty. But that was in 2002, and the last execution in California was in 2006. They are still likely alive, serving life in prison. But this case honestly just blows my mind because the fact that they were even practicing black magic to protect themselves when they themselves are the monsters, like they had so many weird phases and it just came out of nowhere. Like there were no crazy red flags and at least Mickey's life before meeting with James and then her life just flipped upside down like how do you rip your own children and the friends of your children? Like that doesn't happen overnight. And I know a lot of people will attribute meth to being the reason that this happened,

but that doesn't even make sense. I mean, there are so many meth heads out there that I've done crazy things, but nothing like this. It's so weird. It's so weird. Also, this is a really just a side note. There was someone from James's exact high school who went on to commit very similar crimes. He would rape a bunch of girls, kill them, and throw them down hills. Wow. From the same high school. So people speculate, because they were kind of friendly in high school.

They were like the two outsiders. Everybody else was like that prep school California vibe. And James and the guy named Mike, they were more from a working class. They were made fun of. They didn't really fit in as well. And they're just everything that they did was very similar. So I don't know. This whole thing is just unsettling on so many different levels, but

please stay safe out there. And I will see you guys on Sunday for the mini-suit. Bye. is just unsettling on so many different levels but please stay safe out there and I will see you guys on Sunday for the mini-sode. Bye!