Rotten Mango - #344: “Lovely Bones” Author Is Sorry For Sending Wrong Guy To Jail For 16 Years After Writing a Book About Him

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Timothy, a film director, had a new script land on his desk. The movie was in its final screenwriting stages and it just needed his final approval.  They had been working to turn Alice Sebold, the fa...med author of “The Lovely Bones,” they were working on turning her memoir into a movie. Her memoir was about her real life assault in college and her fight to send her violent attacker to prison. But the more Timothy read - the more he didn’t feel right about this. There was so much wrong. The details. The evidence.  Timothy picked up his phone - he called his private investigator. I need you to look into Alice Sebold for me. The New York Times Bestselling author… something’s not right. I think… I think she’s lying.  It was during the production of her movie - that it was discovered, Alice Sebold, had sent the wrong guy to prison for 16 years.  Full Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Rumble. Get ready for Las Vegas style action at Bet MGM, the king of online casinos. Enjoy casino games at your fingertips with the same Vegas strip excitement MGM is famous for. When you play classics like MGM Grand Millions or popular games like Blackjack, Baccarat, and Roulette. With our ever-growing library of digital slot games, a large selection of online table games, and signature BetMGM service, there is no better way to bring the excitement and ambience of Las Vegas home to you than with BetMGM Casino. Download the BetMGM Casino app today.
Starting point is 00:00:35 BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. BetMGM.com for Ts and Cs. 19 plus to wager. ON only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Bet MGM operates pursuant to any operating agreement
Starting point is 00:00:58 with iGaming Ontario. Badabing, badaboom. It feels kind of illegal what Karen is doing. She's sitting in her Los Angeles home and she's watching video after video of black men pretending to her white woman. She wants to throw up, she wants to gag, she can't take it anymore, she closes her computer and stares out the window. Something about this just, I mean obviously it just doesn't feel right.
Starting point is 00:01:24 Karen has been hired to write the screenplay for the famed author Alice Siebold, the author of The Lovely Bones. I don't know if you guys watched this movie. The Lovely Bones was a huge international commercial success. So was the book that it's based off of. That book was quickly one of the highest selling, fastest selling novels in that period. Karen had been brought on to take Alice's other book, so The Lovely Bones, already a movie. But Alice had another book called Lucky. This is a memoir, meaning this one is actually true. This is actually about Alice's real life. It's factual.
Starting point is 00:02:00 Karen is in charge of turning that book into a movie, a dramatized version. Typically this is a very very long process and the risk that this movie is not gonna do well is pretty high but with this particular one not risky at all. This is Alice Sebold we're talking about. We're talking about the creator of the lovely bones. Of course that's gonna do well. This is a dream job for Karen. So why is it that every time she opens up the book she wants to throw up, she wants to gag? Maybe because the book is based off the true story of Alice's absolutely brutal
Starting point is 00:02:36 essay when she was in college. I mean a stranger had dragged her under the tunnel, near campus, assaulted her, beat her violently, and then left. But also maybe it's something else. So in terms of just movie casting, Karen had to find a bunch of black male actors, get them to audition for the part of the assaulter, and they would during their audition, they would have to pretend to essay someone. It just made Karen so uncomfortable. This is 2021 and it's clear that none of these actors even wanted to be there.
Starting point is 00:03:06 Most of them were duped by their agents to show up and audition. The other half of them, they're like, okay, now I'm in a pickle because I really need the money, I need to pay the bills. But the minute that this movie goes up, it's social annihilation. I mean, the actor would be disowned by his own community because of this portrayal. But a job is a job, right? Karen adapts the movie, writes a script, and it lands on the director's desk to be approved. She did tweak a few things, she condensed the rambling parts, but also, she made the attacker white.
Starting point is 00:03:38 So when Timothy, the director of this, that's gonna see this book go from book to movie, he starts reading over the screenplay. It just needs to be approved by him, and then now we can go into production. He's comparing it to the original book He starts he starts getting this feeling It's not even a bad feeling but it's the feeling of he leaves work He goes out to dinner and he keeps having this little nagging feeling in the back of his mind where he feels like he forgot Something but then he doesn't even know what he forgot and he's just like, I just feel, I just feel gross about it. Like something is annoying me. He would just gaze off and think
Starting point is 00:04:12 about life. When Timothy couldn't take it anymore, he calls up Dan, a private investigator, and he says, Hey, Dan, can you look into something for me? Or look into someone. Hey Dan, can you look into something for me? Or look into someone? Alice Sebold. Yes, the famous author, the one that did the lovely bones. I just feel like something's not really adding up. I think she's lying. We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support the Innocence Project.
Starting point is 00:05:01 Their mission is to exonerate inmates who have been falsely convicted as well as fight for reform in the criminal justice system. They have been working for over three decades to prevent wrongful convictions and free the innocent. This episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support Rotten Mango's growing team of dedicated researchers and translators. And we would also like to thank you guys, our listeners, for your continued support as we work on our mission to be worthy advocates of these causes. Some quick disclaimers for today's case. First, the essay mentioned is brief but it's very graphic so please, if that's a concern, take care of yourself.
Starting point is 00:05:35 I also do want to mention, I think today's case requires a lot of nuance and care. There are technically two victims in this case. They are victims in their own right, in their own stories but one victim helped create another victim and now how much of that you think was intentional or is not intentional on creating the second victim i guess it's up for you to decide but in no way shape or form are we discrediting or casting doubt on a victim's story of assault it happened
Starting point is 00:06:03 but that's pretty much as much as we know. So just keep in mind many things can be true at once, many people can be victims at once, and victims can end up harming other victims and creating new victims. So with that being said, let's get into it. There were rumors around Syracuse University, around the campus, that a man is climbing through the college students' windows. But then again, is it really a rumor if it actually happened to a student on campus? A 19-year-old college student named Alice Sebold is on her way home and she turns the corner, she's in the car. There are five police vehicles with their sirens off, but their lights are just illuminating the entire street.
Starting point is 00:06:46 There's policemen walking around trying to talk to people, trying to talk to college students and Alice is just staring at this chaotic scene. From inside the car, it sounds almost silent. Like those movies she's driving up and she can feel this like doom building in her stomach. She tells her boyfriend at the time, oh my god, oh my god, let me out, I gotta get out. All the police are gathered on this street and she just has this gut feeling that something happened to her roommate, Lila. Alice runs out the car straight for the building that she lives in and two uniformed officers, they step in front of her way blocking her.
Starting point is 00:07:19 This is a crime scene, ma'am, you've gotta leave. I live here, I live here, is it Lila? Oh my god, please, you have to tell me what happened. The officers are debating whether or not to step aside because technically she does live here and then another officer comes up from behind them. Alice? This is Detective Clapper, the same police that helped Alice when she... and it just couldn't be happening again. Alice, what are you doing here? Detective Clapper, I live here, where's Lila?
Starting point is 00:07:50 I'm so sorry, Alice. What do you mean? Was she assaulted? Detective Clapper looks down and he clenches his jaw. He had seen everything that Alice had gone through and now, yes, on the bed in the back bedroom she was assaulted. Your roommate was. The back bedroom? That doesn't even make sense because that's my bedroom. Is she okay?
Starting point is 00:08:16 Lila was not okay. I mean everything was not okay. This would rip apart Alice's and Lila's friendship because things were getting too complicated now. The police believed that Lila was assaulted because of Alice. The assaulter came in through Alice's unlocked window, dragged Lila into Alice's bedroom, and said, quote, I want to do it in Alice's bedroom. Hmm. There's a lot to be scared of in prison, prison gangs primarily. Prison gangs might be more terrifying than their non-incarcerated counterparts. Prison gangs are really dangerous
Starting point is 00:08:52 and they completely undermine the prison system in America, but it's just unavoidable. There's no way that they can really completely eliminate prison gangs because it's rooted in human psychology. It's how humans behave socially. Every single person, when they go into prison, they have a set of conduct, a code of conduct if you will. They live by these unwritten rules where they say this is right and this is wrong. And usually everybody's code of conduct is vastly different. So naturally they're gonna find like-minded people in prison. Naturally rankings form once they find those like-minded people. So based on race, ethnicity, religion, crimes committed, there's going to be a hierarchy.
Starting point is 00:09:32 And people find these groups to settle into, they find loyalty and they find safety. And when humans find a group that they like, we do this very interesting thing where we need an enemy group. So these prison gangs, I mean, they're going to happen. we do this very interesting thing where we need an enemy group. So these prison gangs, I mean, they're going to happen. Some of the bigger gangs include the Latin Kings. And when I see prison gang, it sounds like, hee hee, we're friends in prison and we're going to do stuff in prison. Most prison gangs are criminal enterprises that run outside of prison as well.
Starting point is 00:10:01 They just have a prison division. Some of these big, massive street gangs, their leadership is based in prison. The Latin Kings operate throughout the United States. They've got chapters operating in 158 cities alone. In Chicago, the gang has more than 25,000 members, just in the city of Chicago. They are known for having five points that you must follow. I'm not gonna go through all five, but some of them include,
Starting point is 00:10:28 your word is your crown, your crown is your nation, and a king must live by this word. And also, love is what I carry within my heart for my brothers, my crown, and my nation. I'm sorry, what does that mean? They have a lot of love in their hearts. Okay. They also have something called a BOS order,
Starting point is 00:10:49 beat on sight. So yeah, a beating for an undetermined length of time. You say, I put a BOS order on that person, you could go all out for an undetermined amount of time. You could go for two hours. Then you've got the three-minute physical. Three-minute beatings by at least three members of the gang. And typically this is only done two members of the gang.
Starting point is 00:11:12 It's like a disciplinary action. Then you have the five-minute physical. Five-minute beatings by five members. And like that doesn't sound that bad because five minutes sounds short in the grand scheme of things, but you're talking about prison gang members. Five of them for five minutes. And then you have a TOS order. Terminate on site.
Starting point is 00:11:35 Death. Typically to get into the Latin Kings in prison, you have to cut or stab someone that they tell you to. Yeah. Then you have the United Blood Nation, or in this case the East Coast Bloods. The East Coast faction of the California-based Blood Street Gang. Their main source of income is trafficking, the sale of illegal drugs, and a lot of other things. It's stated that in order to be accepted into the Bloods, you have to get jumped by all the members.
Starting point is 00:12:01 This process is called being brought home. And if you're not careful, this process is also gonna bring you home to your heavenly father, they say. They also call it blood in, blood out. Meaning you wanna join or you wanna leave, you're gonna shed some blood. But even if you get jumped, even if you enter the gang,
Starting point is 00:12:21 you still have to commit crimes of assault and robbery to prove your loyalty and worthiness they also just like sell crack scalpels and opioids inside prisons in New York I don't know how they do it I mean they're in with the prison guards but it's crazy then you have the Aryan Brotherhood these are the neo-nazis they are considered an organized crime syndicate that has 20,000 members in and out of prison. They're really small in terms of numbers compared to everybody else, compared to the Latin Kings who have more than that just in the city of Chicago. But according to the FBI,
Starting point is 00:12:54 they are responsible for a disproportionately large number of prison murders. I think like a quarter. They partake in arms trafficking, drug trafficking, human trafficking, dog fighting. In order to join the Aryan Brotherhood, you have to take a blood oath, you have to pledge your allegiance, and you have to be willing to kill another inmate. Usually they have some sort of Nazi symbolism or shamrocks as tattoos to identify each other. Also, there's no exit out of the brotherhood, except death. It is a lifelong commitment. Your life depends on it.
Starting point is 00:13:31 One Aryan Brotherhood member stated, "'For the Aryan Brotherhood, "'murder is a way to make a social statement. "'If Black people attack White people, we send a message. "'We go pick on one of their shot-callers. "'We catch them walking across the prison yard, "'under guard escort in handcuffs. It doesn't matter in front of a guard or not.
Starting point is 00:13:48 We're gonna go butcher him in front of God and everybody at high noon and in the middle of the yard. And it's not just gonna be a few clean stab marks. It's going to be a vicious, brutal killing. Because that's how the brothers take care of business. And a brother's work is never done. The Aryan Brotherhood will ironically work with non-white gangs for profit since they are technically a criminal enterprise
Starting point is 00:14:10 before they are racist but when money's not on the line they're quite racist like it should be made very very clear they typically do not like black people and they are typically very homicidal. 20 year old Anthony Broadwater is black. He walks into the main gathering area of the prison and he's new here. So he clears his throat and his hands. He's got this beat up looking yellow folder, a manila folder and everything about his first sentence, the way it comes out of his mouth is going to be so important. He's got to look confident. He He's gonna have a deep, strong voice, but it's not gonna sound egotistical or threatening
Starting point is 00:14:48 like he's challenging anyone in any way. But he also can't look too confident or not too confident. It has to be perfectly in the middle. You can't maintain eye contact for too long because that means you wanna fight somebody. But if you keep looking at the floor, if you keep glancing around the room, that means you're nervous. That means you're weak. That means you're hiding something.
Starting point is 00:15:10 So he would stand in the middle of the prison, deep in his voice, just enough to command the room of violent offenders. And he would announce, who is the head of the Latin Kings? Who's the head of the Bloods? Who's the head of the Aryan Brotherhood? I need to talk. All three groups? All three groups. He would get all the heads of every single prison gang, rival or not, and he would hand them his Manila folder. They needed to read it. Anthony had joined the Marines when he was 17 years old and he said that he just wanted to better the world and better himself. The only reason that he was honorably discharged from the Marines was to take care of his dad who was diagnosed with stomach cancer. He's supposed to be taking care of his dad, but instead
Starting point is 00:15:59 he's in jail, sitting in his cell, nervously, anxiously, waiting for them to finish reading everything in his Manila folder. He had a makeshift weapon in his cell nervously, anxiously, waiting for them to finish reading everything in his manila folder. He had a makeshift weapon in his socks made out of tuna fish cans. He would have to be alert and ready. Any moment now, his fate is going to be determined. The prison gangs would decide whether or not he lives or he dies. Because in this prison hierarchy, Anthony is at the very bottom. He is a convicted sex offender.
Starting point is 00:16:29 He is a black man who essayed an 18-year-old white college student, and that woman was about to be a world-famous author very, very, very soon, writing about him. Suzy Salmon was 14 years old when she visited her neighbor's house. He drags her into this secret underground den, essays her, and then murders her. Wait wait wait wait wait, Suzy? Wait what? Oh yeah, there's a girl named Suzy. Suzy Salmon is 14 years old when she visits her neighbor's house. Oh, and the neighbor dragged her in?
Starting point is 00:17:01 Yeah, the neighbor drags Suzy into his underground den, essays her, murders her, dismembers her body, and then dumps her remains in the cornfields. Susie's dead, but she's not really dead. She's in like this weird dream-like afterlife where she watches everybody react to her death. Everybody's falling apart. Her dad is fixated on getting justice. He's like a dog on a mission barking up the tree but it's always the wrong tree. Her mom is in so much pain that she just starts having an affair with the lead detective investigating Suzy's murder. Suzy's sister is suspicious of the
Starting point is 00:17:35 neighbor, breaks into his house to find evidence. There's some other side quests in all of this. Suzy is watching her crush get intimate with her best friend and somehow she possesses her best friend's body to feel like what it's like to be with her crush intimately, and then she finds a sense of peace. Regardless, she watches over everyone and gets closure. She gets justice and her killer dies. Her killer dies and is actually sent to Suzy where she tells him off and watches him get dragged into eternal damnation. And then she finally moves on.
Starting point is 00:18:10 It's kind of a creepy, unhinged story when you really think about it, but it sold a lot of copies. That is the fictional story of The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold. The novel sold over 10 million copies worldwide. It earned a spot on the New York Times bestseller list for over a year consistently non-stop without a break. Peter Jackson, the director behind the Lord of the Rings franchise adapted the book into a movie. It grossed over 94 million dollars worldwide and like mind you this is not this is not a crazy series or a Marvel movie. Those are some crazy numbers The movie and the book was kind of in this rare occurrence
Starting point is 00:18:51 It was a rare occasion where both of those things were commercially successful and critically acclaimed People really liked it and this just threw Alice Sebold into literary success and stardom. It is unclear how much she's worth, but just her home alone is over $6 million. She is technically one of the most celebrated authors of all recent time. But by 2023, Alice Sebold could no longer walk her dog outside. She could no longer step outside to buy groceries or to go grab a coffee. She would have to go into full on hiding in her $6 million mansion. All because of what happened to her when she was a freshman in college,
Starting point is 00:19:31 when she was 18. 18 year old Alice plopped down on the couch in the living room and her whole family has been anticipating her coming back from college. And her parents are tiptoeing around her, didn't really know what to say. Nobody wants to look at the hand shaped bruise marks around her neck, or like the ones on her inner thigh, or the cuts all over her face. Alice's parents, they're just kind of shuffling around waiting to see if she needs anything, if she's gonna talk, if she wants to talk about anything in particular. Alice looks over at them
Starting point is 00:20:01 and every time she turns her head, it hurts. How you doing, Dad? He looks seriously confused. Um, me? I just had five shots of whiskey, but I've never been more sober in my entire life, so there's that. Alice looks back at the ceiling and her dad tries again with her. Uh, Alice, honey, do you want something to eat? Alice thinks about it for a moment, and she says very bluntly,
Starting point is 00:20:27 Yeah, that'd be nice, Dad, considering the only things I've had in my mouth in the last 24 hours was a cracker and a cock. Alice had been assaulted less than 24 hours ago in a dark tunnel under campus. This was her way of coping. The tunnel was creepy, I mean, mainly because it's past midnight. But also because a girl had allegedly been murdered and dismembered under the tunnel. That's what everybody at Syracuse University was saying. That was the rumor of the tunnel.
Starting point is 00:20:54 Probably not the best route to take, but it was the fastest. So that's why Alice is there. And the tunnel had these weathered stone walls, and during the day it's very aesthetic, but at night it feels like someone's just gonna reach out and grab you and someone did reach out and grab Alice that night and it wasn't the walls it was a man he grabbed her from behind and she could feel his breath in her ear I'll kill you if you scream do you understand if you scream you're dead Alice nods and it's not like she could
Starting point is 00:21:24 scream his hand is gripping so firmly ons, and it's not like she could scream. His hand is gripping so firmly on her mouth, and he's pinning her arms by her side. And the minute that he lets go, she lets out a scream. And he attacks her. He covers her mouth again. He kicks her in the back of the knee so that she aggressively falls down to the ground, scraping her knee, scraping her face. You don't get it, bitch.
Starting point is 00:21:42 I'll kill you. I've got a knife. I'll kill you." He starts kicking her on the sides. Alice is trying to kick back, but all she's doing is more damage to herself than to the man. Alice manages to turn around, crawl up, get up on her feet, and she starts running deeper into the tunnel to get away from him. But before she can see the light at the end, he yanks her by the hair, throws her back on the ground and tells her Now now you're asking for it
Starting point is 00:22:09 He reaches around his back pocket takes out a knife and Alice lunges forward She falls straight on her face shattering her eyeglasses The man drops his knife and he looks pissed He starts rubbing her face into the brick and starts strangling her and Alice loses consciousness for a second. She comes to and she's staring at this man again and she believed a thousand percent without a shadow of a doubt she's gonna die that night. That's what she's thinking. Oh my god I'm gonna die that night. Like this is it. She would be the second girl in this tunnel to be killed and probably dismembered. So the man forces her undress, he forces her to kiss him, and meanwhile she's begging
Starting point is 00:22:51 for all of this to stop. She's thinking, what can I do to appeal to this man's humanity? Wait, I'm a foster child and I've never met my parents and I just want to meet them before I die! I've never met my biological parents! I've never had intimate moments with anyone before. Please, I'm a virgin." That much was true.
Starting point is 00:23:08 She never had intimate relations before, but he didn't care. Like if anything, perhaps it excited him even more. He assaulted her. He called her a bitch. He forced her to tell him that he was a strong man and to thank him for everything and tell him that she actually wanted this to happen he told her that she was the worst girl that he ever assaulted, visually speaking she was forced to perform orally, he urinated on her, and then he fully essayed her
Starting point is 00:23:34 and I mean, it's very graphic what he did to her, but it was... there was a lot there was a lot, it was not just... not saying it's just, but it was torturous, there was a lot. There was a lot. It was not just... I'm not saying it's just, but... It was torturous. There was a lot of blood. There was a lot of injuries that would require a lot of stitches down there. Because the tunnel is near Syracuse University, and I don't know if this is the worst part. Some people said it was.
Starting point is 00:23:58 But this is where Alice went to school, and she's a freshman in college. There's a lot of college students walking around at night. They would all kind of glance into the tunnel, hear the noises, and they believed that a young couple was having a rendezvous. And most of them would literally cheer them on, just whoo whooping, telling them to have a good night as they kept walking off. What? When he was finally done, Alice was terrified that he's gonna kill her. I mean, this is just the start of his plan.
Starting point is 00:24:26 How would she know, right? But he told her to put her clothes back on and before he lets her walk off, he said, come here, kiss me goodbye. Alice walks up, kisses him, and he starts crying. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You're a good girl. You're such a good girl. Just like you said
Starting point is 00:24:48 Alice was shocked. She didn't know how to respond. So she just said It's okay. Really. It's okay No, it's not right what I did. You're a good girl. I'm sorry for what I did Alice hated this feeling like but she needed to feel alive the feeling of comforting her own attacker is disgusting. It's okay, I forgive you. Can I take my purse now and my books? He took eight dollars in cash that Alice had, but he let her grab her purse and books. Alright, well, which way are you going? Alice pointed, okay, well, take care of yourself. Alice starts walking down the tunnel in the direction of her campus. She doesn't want to full on sprint just yet because what if he felt that meant that she
Starting point is 00:25:31 would run straight to the cops? She doesn't want to walk too slowly to give him a chance to ponder any next steps that he might be thinking or wanting to take so she just kind of speed walks at an appropriate pace and a second later she hears behind her, Hey girl. Alice turns around slowly. What's your name? She looks at him.
Starting point is 00:25:51 She doesn't know what to say. She's in way too much shock. She just says, Alice. And he smiles. Nice knowing you, Alice. See you around sometime. And then he ran off, and Alice walked back to campus. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.
Starting point is 00:26:15 If I could have one wish, it would be to have an extra hour a day, maybe an extra two to three hours. I feel like I never have time to do all the things that I want to do, but when I really think about it, if I had the unlimited time, what would I use it for? Sometimes it feels like life is so busy, you just lose track of what's really important and what makes you happy. That's why therapy can be really helpful. At least for me, therapy really helps me put things into perspective when life just starts feeling so overwhelming. It's a safe space where I can share all the thoughts that I'm too scared or too embarrassed to share with friends and family
Starting point is 00:26:45 A therapy session feels like getting a really good night's sleep All my problems just seem so much smaller, so much easier to tackle afterwards And I can immediately take the steps that I need to take Therapy is for everyone Regardless of where you are in life, if you're feeling overwhelmed or if you feel like your days are never long enough Or you just need the safe space to open up, give BetterHelp a try. I love BetterHelp because it's fully online. From filling out the brief questionnaire to getting matched with the licensed therapist, you can skip the commutes and the waiting
Starting point is 00:27:13 rooms and get the support that you need right in the comfort of your home. It's convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. When something is good for you, you can make time for it. Learn to make time for what makes you happy with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash rotten today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelpHELP.com slash rotten. Think of the last time you bought something to wear, something to decorate your house, something for your family or friends.
Starting point is 00:27:39 What if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back? With Rakuten, you can! You can earn cash back on just about anything you buy from over 750 stores. If you've ever bought electronics, home decor, fashion and beauty, or booked a trip, well, you could have got cash back. But don't worry, it's not too late. It's free and easy to use, and you get cash back deposited into your PayPal account or sent to you as a check. Earn cash back at stores like Sephora, Old Navy, and Expedia.
Starting point is 00:28:11 It's the smartest way to shop, plain and simple. Start your shopping at Rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A. to TEN.CA. After serving a certain amount of time in prison, an inmate is typically up for parole. I mean, depending on their sentence, if they're allowed to be. But when the time is right, they go to a parole hearing where a parole board is going to decide whether or not they're going to be released early or, you know, be out on parole. There's a lot of different factors that the parole board takes into consideration, like the severity of the offense, release plans, behavior in prison.
Starting point is 00:28:51 But one of the bigger parts is remorse and accountability. You cannot be remorseful if you don't take accountability. If you don't even admit that you did something, how can you be sorry that you did it? Anthony refused to admit that he was a rapist, that he R-worded Alice, and the parole board did not like that. They denied Anthony his first and second parole hearings because of it. Some of his inmates, they don't understand him. Just admit what you've done and get out. What's the big deal? You say a few sentences, okay, it was me. You're right. I did it. I feel so badly about it. Just be a robot, oh my god, I will change. And then freedom is right there.
Starting point is 00:29:29 Why on earth would you come back to prison for 12 months at a time, being a convicted sex offender, the bottom of the hierarchy, your life is in danger every second? Why don't you just say it? Just say the magic words and get out of here. It's just puzzling. Even during his arrest, Anthony did not admit to what he did. He was asked where he was the night of the attack and Anthony said, I don't remember,
Starting point is 00:29:51 but I know I wasn't doing that. In his appeal, Anthony argued, Alice had a reduced ability to perceive objects accurately due to the fear that she felt during and after the attack. It wasn't me. The parole board was annoyed. It just was... it just felt slimy. When you do something that bad, just try to give the victim closure. Just admit it was you. It's not that hard. Everybody knew what
Starting point is 00:30:18 happened to Alice. The night of the assault, Alice didn't really know where to go, who to call, or like what to do. She didn't go straight to the police. She just wanted to walk all the way back to her dorm room. She's in autopilot mode. She could vaguely string together the fact that all these people passing by her, they're pointing at her, they're whispering, she's really fucked up. Did you just see? She just walked by. She had blood. She's way too exhausted, way too detached to even register what's going on, what they're saying, who they're even looking at. They're all looking at her. Her clothes are inside out, they're bloodied, there's smudges of dirt and leaves all over her clothes, all over her body.
Starting point is 00:30:53 Her face is all cut up, there's scratches over her, there's bruises already starting to show up intensely around her neck, chest, arms, and legs, and she's walking like a zombie. She's just dazed, putting one foot in front of the other, walking back to her dorm. I don't have my, I don't have my dorm key card. The assaulter had taken it along with her eight dollars. She walked up to the student working the desk. I don't have my ID. I just want to go to my room. Oh my god, are you okay? What happened? Alice isn't in the mood to explain everything to this stranger. I mean, I guess he quickly picks up on that
Starting point is 00:31:29 because he just asks if she needs anything else and sends her up to the elevators. When she gets to her floor, she tries to open her dorm room. Locked. She knocks on the door. Mary Alice, are you in here? Her roommate's not there.
Starting point is 00:31:43 She can't get into her room, so she just starts going door to door, knocking on all the doors of the dorm room on this floor, and one of the last doors finally answered. Linda. Linda's a friend of Alice's, and her eyes are squinting, and she's in the dark. What's going on? What happened? Alice walks in, and Linda hops back into bed, and she's rubbing her eyes. Linda, I was just R-worded and beaten in the park.
Starting point is 00:32:08 Linda was silent and then she fell back into her bed and passed out. Whether it was from shock or whether it was from the fact that she was likely blackout drunk or a combination of both, we don't know. But Alice goes back into the hallway where the RA which is like a resident advisor It's like a student that's in charge of the floor He's staring directly at her. What is going on? As our word and beaten in the park. Will you call the police? He rushes to call the police and Alice is rushed to the hospital
Starting point is 00:32:38 She's strapped down on this gurney and they rush her out into the hallway We're now all the other students are staring down at her. They've gathered because now there's a commotion. A policeman dramatically puts out his arm, blocks the students, and says very loudly with his full chest, get out the way everyone! This girl has just been R-worded. As Alice is being gurneyed out of the dorm, she sees all the other students turning to one another like a game of telephone, one by one. They're turning to each other, parroting what they just heard, the words that they just heard and so on and so forth.
Starting point is 00:33:11 And Alice hadn't even made it out the building yet. And she knew, she knew that she was now only ever gonna be known in this school as the girl who got R worded. She's taken to the hospital where they have to do a rape kit. Lot of samples are taken that night, samples and clippings of hair. They need Alice to urinate after the exam so that they could give her the stitches.
Starting point is 00:33:31 She saw them try to hide it, but it was kind of hard to miss. The entire tray was bright red. Her urine was just blood. It's likely that every part of Alice's body was aching and in some tremendous amount of pain, but like a lot of the victims, Alice went into the hospital bathroom after the exam and scrubbed herself for an hour under the scorching hot water. Because she just wanted to feel clean again. By the end of all of it, her towels were pink and bloodied. When Alice gets discharged from the hospital, she's got
Starting point is 00:34:05 to go back to school, pack her stuff, and then go home to her family, both of which she's dreading this whole thing. When she goes back to the dorms, she just wants to quietly make it back to her room without anybody noticing with people taking zero interest. Like she doesn't want all the questions, she doesn't want the pity looks, she wants nothing. She wants to go home. She's trying to slip into her dorm as quickly as possible, but she ends up running into her friend's boyfriend, Victor. Now Victor is black, and all their mutual friends, they start shuffling out into the hallway
Starting point is 00:34:36 to see what's gonna happen. And Victor's girlfriend, Alice's friend, looks at her and announces to everybody, Alice, Victor wants to hug you. Alice said it was the last thing that she wanted to do. I mean, she said nothing against Victor, but she just didn't want to be near a man right now. And even though she knew why Victor wanted to hug her,
Starting point is 00:34:56 to reset any newly forming feelings towards an entire race of people because of her attack that Alice might have, Victor wants to show her it's not all black people, which you know, you would think is common sense. But anyway, she said that she felt the whole thing was ridiculous. That's what she said. She said that she knew this wasn't her attacker. Why would they need to hug? She said, I'm sorry, I can't, Victor. I don't think I can. He was black, wasn't he?
Starting point is 00:35:27 Victor starts crying in the middle of the hallway, telling Alice that he's so sorry, and Alice felt like she needed to hug him now, at least for the sake of him, for the sake of everybody else and how awkward it was. So she walks up to him, she hugs him, and she's just waiting, counting down the seconds for him to pull away. It was the first man that hugged her after the assault and she hated it. Alice said after that attack everything changed. She said, the world I lived in was not the world that my parents still occupied. In my new world I saw violence everywhere. It was not a
Starting point is 00:35:59 song or a dream or a plot point. It was everywhere. She said it felt like every man that she passed on the street, it felt like she was underneath them. She felt like they knew what happened to her, they could see it on her face, and she felt like they did it to her. Every single one of them. I mean, clearly, logically speaking, it's not true, but that's just how she felt going anywhere. Except when she went to Professor Gallagher's class. Okay, it's technically a workshop, not a class,
Starting point is 00:36:24 but it's hosted by the famous poet Tess Gallagher's class. Okay, it's technically a workshop, not a class, but it's hosted by the famous poet Tess Gallagher. And this is the whole reason that Alice even came back to Syracuse after the assault. Her parents begged her, just stay closer to home. We can get you into one of those Christian universities nearby. It's safer. They have campus lockdowns.
Starting point is 00:36:40 You don't have to leave the campus. And Alice is like, Mom, they don't believe in toasters. I'm not going there. I'm going to Syracuse where Tess Gallagher is going to be. Okay. So Alice goes back to Syracuse and prior to all of this, prior to the assault, Alice considered herself a writer.
Starting point is 00:36:57 That was her whole identity. But since the attack, what can she write about? I mean, how can you write about anything when all you can think about is what happened underneath the tunnel? that's it. so when Tess Gallagher tells the class that they need to write a poem by the end of the week, Alice just goes into autopilot mode. she starts writing whatever is the first thing on her mind and obviously it's the assault. it's the only thing that she can think about. When she's done, she absolutely fucking hated it. Hated it.
Starting point is 00:37:30 But she turned it in anyway. Tess Gallagher wanted to see her in her office. And she loved it. She requested that Alice read it out loud to the class the next day. Alice had to print out 14 copies for all the other students, pass them out one by one, and stand in front while reading it out loud. My poem is titled, Conviction.
Starting point is 00:37:55 She glances around and she clears her throat. If they caught you long enough for me to see that face again, maybe I would know your name. I would stop calling you the rapist and start calling you John or Luke or Paul. I would make my hatred large and whole. If they found you, I could take those solid red balls and slice them, separately off as everyone watched. I have already planned what I would do for a pleasurable kill, a slow, soft ending.
Starting point is 00:38:25 First, I would kick hard and straight with a boot. Into you, stare while you shoot quick and lose. Contents, a bloody pink hue. Next, I would slice out your tongue. You couldn't curse or scream, only a face of pain would speak. For you, your thick ignorance through. Thirdly, should I hack away those sweet cow eyes with the glass blades you made me lie down on?
Starting point is 00:38:49 Or should I shoot with a gun, closed into the knee, where they say the cap shatters immediately? I picture you now, your fingers rubbing sleep from those live blind eyes, while I rise restlessly. I need the blood of your hide on my hands I want to kill you with boots and guns and glass I want to fuck you with knives come to me come to me come die and lie beside me by the time Alice was done reading her poem her face and her ears were red the tips of her fingerprints were tingling, and Tess Gallagher looked at her and told her... again. Alice was forced to
Starting point is 00:39:30 read it again. It felt like torture and afterwards Tess Gallagher demanded all the other students ask questions to give their input on the writing because technically it's a poetry workshop. One student, a guy, raised his hand. You don't actually feel that way do you? Feel like hand. You don't actually feel that way, do you? Feel like what? You don't actually want to shoot him in the knees and that other stuff with the knives, right? I mean, you can't actually feel that way. Yes, I do.
Starting point is 00:39:55 I want to kill him. What is there to gain by that? Revenge? Maybe you don't understand. I guess I don't. I guess I just feel sorry for you then. The room went silent. And a week after reading her poem to the workshop, Alice was on her way to grab a snack in between classes.
Starting point is 00:40:16 And it's as if the universe was giving her a response. Because standing in front of her on the middle of the busy street looking directly at her was her attacker. If you stay in Times Square all day, you would probably see maybe 360,000 people walk by, and that's if you're really looking, and that's on an average day. What are the odds that without any coordination, without any planning, the attacker and the victim would meet again? It is like the attacker had this invisible force field shooting out of him, threatening to knock Alice over.
Starting point is 00:40:48 She starts feeling this crazy tightening in her chest. She could recognize this man from anywhere, even if it was just his back. She knew this man. This man changed her life five months ago. There is no forgetting him. Alice runs through the checklist in her mind. Height, posture, build.
Starting point is 00:41:04 No, this is him. Like she knows it's him. She could feel it in her mind. Height, posture, build. No, this is him. Like she knows it's him. She could feel it in her bones. This is the guy. At this point, the amount of times that she was forced to think about the attack, she might have known him better than anybody else in her life. Alice breathes, trying to rationalize.
Starting point is 00:41:19 She crosses the street trying to focus on the original task at hand, which was supposed to be snacks between classes. I mean, technically it could be anyone, right? She could be panicking. Alice walks into the store. Now, on her way here, she had been starving, but now, now her stomach feels like it's full of rocks. She just picks out a peach yogurt and a soda, and then she hurries back out onto the street, trying to forget everything. She glances both ways and she crosses the street, double checks the alleyway that he was originally in, and the man is gone.
Starting point is 00:41:51 She releases a slow breath. Maybe she was wrong, right? Maybe her mind is playing tricks on her. But then from the corner of her eye, she sees a flash of carrot orange. A very tall police officer is climbing out of his police car. Everyone on the street notices him because he's hard to miss. He's got this very vibrant carrot colored hair and Alice is relaxing at the side of him.
Starting point is 00:42:12 She glances at her watch. She quickens up her pace. Alice does not want to be late for class. But all the hair on her arms shoot up in panic. Her pace doesn't slow. Instead, her breathing rate quickens because she sees him crossing the street straight for her. her arms shoot up in panic. Her pace doesn't slow, instead her breathing rate quickens because she sees him crossing the street straight for her. Alice wants to scream but her voice feels like it's gone and she's just he's he's standing there smiling at her like they're classmates like they see each other every day. Her brain is telling her to scream to tell everybody on the street
Starting point is 00:42:40 what this man did to her five months ago in the tunnel but somehow her legs just keep moving that's it she's in autopilot mode and as he gets closer he smirks at her hey don't I know you from somewhere? Alice is having flashbacks from that moment in the tunnel his face over hers broken glass just digging into her back she's laying on the cold concrete ground his sour pee on her face she could hear him laughing as he passes by her, but her feet just keep moving. She walks past him and it's only when she starts turning the corner that she looks back down the street and she sees that he's so relaxed. He's so sure that she's not gonna do anything. He's even casually talking and laughing and bringing up a
Starting point is 00:43:24 conversation with that red-haired police officer. It's like he's teasing her, saying how he controlled every movement of hers, that the police aren't gonna do anything to help her. Wait, so he asked her, do I know you from somewhere? Yeah, and then she ran off. And then he went to talk to the police? Yeah. Hmm. The last line of her poem repeats in her mind. Come die and lie beside me. Alice wants him to die. She needs it.
Starting point is 00:43:51 Just like she died on that night in the tunnel, she wants him to feel her pain. So her feet start running before she knows it. She's already at the top of the hill. She's panting. She's making multiple phone calls. There are three things that she wants to do before she reports this sighting to the police.
Starting point is 00:44:06 One, she needs to draw a composite sketch of her attacker with all of the details in her mind. Two, she needs to call her parents to let them know. And three, Alice needs to go tell her professor that she's going to be missing class. There really is no logic behind why she feels the need to do all of these things, but her plan is in order. Her professor was the need to do all of these things, but her plan is in order. Her professor was the most supportive in all of this. He told her, Alice, there are going to be a lot of things that happen from now on, and
Starting point is 00:44:33 they're not going to make sense. But try and remember everything. So she does. She goes back to her dorm room. She's thinking red jacket, cuffed jeans, converses. That's what he was wearing. She sits on her bed and she starts drawing a composite sketch. She calls the police. I was our worded in May and I'm back on campus and I just saw my attacker. Can you please come?
Starting point is 00:44:54 As she waits, she continues on that composite sketch. She starts with his hair, how tall he is, the way he's built, his nose, eyes, mouth, everything. Her description would read short neck, small but dense head, boxy jawline, hair slightly down in front, pretty dark but not black black. Alice would be taken to the police station. She's put into this almost storage-like room and she's asked to go through a bunch of mug shots. She's on her fourth book and the faces are blurring together. None of them look like her attacker. But someone radios in to the officer sitting next to her. Police clapper, the red-headed police officer that she just passed that day. Police clapper just called in. He knows your man. Alice's head pops up and
Starting point is 00:45:37 she watches as the police leave the room. They come back and they ask Alice two questions. What did the policeman you saw today look like? And where did you see his car? He has red hair and is super tall. He parked in the Huntington Hall lot. Bingo. We got our man. Because the police officer was seen talking to him, remember?
Starting point is 00:45:56 Yeah. Then Officer Clapper pops into the room. He's smiling ear to ear and he says, remember me? And everyone, the rest of the officers they start cheering it's like a superhero moment people are patting officer clapper on the back officer clapper now all he has to do is go write a report and all that's left is the police send out a warrant to arrest an officer turns to Alice and tells her we're gonna get this puke rape is one
Starting point is 00:46:22 of the worst crimes. He'll pay. Anthony Broadwater would soon be arrested for the rape of Alice Seibold, soon to be author of New York Times bestseller The Lovely Bones. Alice prepared for the trial like one would prepare for war. She said that she had a battle motto just written on her. Okay, it's like a mantra. That morning before getting dressed for the first day of trial, she took this dark blue ballpoint pen and wrote on her leg, you will die in blue. And she wasn't talking about herself. Alice said that she was ready to take down her attacker. She said, I found him. I thought of the last lines in the poem that I had turned into Gallagher,
Starting point is 00:47:00 come die and lie beside me. I had issued an invitation in my mind The rapist had murdered me on the day of the rape, but now I was gonna murder him back I was gonna make my hate large and whole and On a mission she was. Alice said I felt like if I was gonna win I had to hate the attorneys representing him They may have been earning a paycheck or randomly assigned to the case, had children they loved, or a terminally ill mother to take care of. I didn't care. They were there to destroy me and I was going to fight back. The defense attorneys for Anthony questioned Alice's ability to see clearly because her glasses were knocked off in the middle of the night. She argued, I can in fact see very clearly. I'm nearsighted. I just like to wear glasses during the evening because also it's cute
Starting point is 00:47:46 Like my vision is not that horrendous. I like the way the aesthetic is She would later say he had knocked off my glasses when he jumped me So I told him I was almost blind without them But in fact I committed every feature on his face to my permanent memory. I know I did everything right I survived At the scene of the crime police found Alice's broken glasses and a knife to my permanent memory, I know I did everything right. I survived. At the scene of the crime, police found Alice's broken glasses and a knife. They also found pubic hair on Alice
Starting point is 00:48:10 that did not belong to her. They were able to run a microscopic hair analysis and it was a match to Anthony, the defendant. Alice mistakenly did not pick him in a police lineup, but she and the assistant ADA, Gail, stated that Anthony and another individual in the lineup looked so similar to each other that they were practically identical, and the other individual was likely placed in the lineup with the sole intention of confusing
Starting point is 00:48:34 Alice. Which side note, police lineups, Alice said, are nothing like the movies. Instead of there being big rooms where you're standing comfortably, there's just a one-way mirror, glass that takes up the entirety of a wall and the lineup is done almost directly in front of you. You are separated by glass and they can't see Alice, but to Alice it's very, very real. Her attacker is standing in front of her all over again. She said she started panicking.
Starting point is 00:49:00 She didn't take the appropriate amount of time to really look at them. She just wanted to get out of there. The assistant DA, Gail, remembers Alice was super freaked out, super panicked, asking, can they see me, can they see me? They can see movement on the glass, but no, they can't see you. They know when someone is standing in front of them, but they don't know who it is. But Alice wondered, who else would it be? And then, number five started staring her down. She said number five
Starting point is 00:49:26 had this crazy expression in his eyes. It was ruthless. Even through the glass, even though he couldn't see her, the expression he was giving to her was like if no one else was here, even if there was glass, he would break through it just to get to her. And that is why Alice chose number five. But when she got out she realized it wasn't number five it was number four. It was number four. Alice asked for their photo lineups again and she wanted to throw up. She jumped the gun. She told the police it was four wasn't it? Four and five looked identical. Alice could tell by the look on the officers faces it was number four. The officers tried to
Starting point is 00:50:02 sympathize with her. You were in a hurry to get out of here. I know, but it was four. That was all presented in the trial. Alice said, The cosmetics of our wording are central to proving any case. So far in just appearance, I was two for two. I wore loose, unenticing clothes the day that I had been beaten, and I had also been very clearly beaten. Add to this my virginity and you will begin to understand much of what matters inside the courtroom." And a quote resonated with Alice during all of this. We are all prisoners, but some of us are in cells without windows and some with.
Starting point is 00:50:38 Alice said about the trial, I did what I was warned not to do. I focused my attention on Anthony's face. I stared at him. For a few seconds, I was unaware of the warned not to do. I focused my attention on Anthony's face. I stared at him. For a few seconds, I was unaware of the lawyers or the courtroom. I wanted my life back. During the trial, the word virgin was used non-stop so often, but Alice felt like, at least, you know, she was doing something important by sitting through this, sitting through this very painful process. And the court would state that she was a good girl.
Starting point is 00:51:13 But good girls don't do heroin, typically. That's what they say. And according to Alice's parents, good girls also don't chew gum. That's reserved for waitresses and whores, according to her parents. And Alice just had a very hard time adjusting to life after the attack, after the trial. Even though her attacker was sentenced, it just... She didn't feel like she had a good support system. Her dad was this crazy Spanish literature professor at UPenn. Her mom was not mentally stable. She would have constant panic attacks, and Alice was almost like a parent to her own mom.
Starting point is 00:51:41 And she just had nobody. Instead, she just felt like the weird kid in the family. Her older sister Mary was perfect. She was very academic. She was majoring in Arabic. And just to joke around, Alice would say, my perfect older sister is majoring in Arabic and I am majoring in the R word. One day the whole family was at a dinner table and out of nowhere Alice's dad even asked her, you mean he didn't have a knife in the tunnel? It was so abrupt. Everyone just kind of stopped mid fork What do you know? I don't think I understand Alice. I thought there was a knife. She never saw the knife
Starting point is 00:52:19 She said she could feel it probably. Oh, so the dad's saying you're saying there's not a knife? Yeah, he's like what is there a knife or is there not a knife? What's going on? You know, what's up with the knife? Alice's mom looks really uncomfortable You know as if she's already had this conversation with him multiple times. What is there not to understand honey? I mean, how could you have been R worded if he didn't have the knife in front of you the whole time? I don't know why you didn't try and get away. Dad, I did.
Starting point is 00:52:49 Then how could he have R worded you unless you let him? Dad, that would be like saying I wanted it to happen, but he didn't have the knife in front of you the whole time in the tunnel. Dad, he beat me up. I couldn't want something like that. That's impossible. Wow.
Starting point is 00:53:06 After that, members of the church started coming over to the Sebold family home to pray for Alice because our word is a spiritual disease. And Alice felt like she could never fully move on from the attack. But when she was asked if she kept up with Anthony's case and where he was and his appeal in his parole, she said, absolutely not. Meanwhile, Anthony was trying to convince the parole board to let him out early. He doesn't want to take accountability for the crime, which is exactly what they want, what they need, but he just wants to get out. He argues, I want to prove myself and to the people of the city of Syracuse that
Starting point is 00:53:40 it wasn't me. It hurts. It hurts me to even think that I was convicted of a crime like this. Parole denied. I accept the fact it's going to be always with me, this conviction, but parole denied. In one of the hearings, the parole board tried to get him to just talk about the crime, just to take accountability for a portion of it, and Anthony responded, well sir, the crime was done. I was punished for it, and I must live with that. Well, that's not our question, Anthony. The question is, what kind of responses do you give
Starting point is 00:54:10 when the question was asked? Why was the crime committed? Why did you do it? Well, I've been convicted of it, so I'm going through the stages of the conviction. Oh, so you're still debating on whether or not you've committed the crime, is that what it is? The parole board was getting fed up.
Starting point is 00:54:27 It's like a kid being caught with their hand in the candy jar. Just admit that you did it and get it over with. It's almost insulting if you don't. Like, do you think that the parole board is dumb? The commissioner raises their voice. Either you're guilty of committing the crime or you're not guilty of committing the crime. You're talking in circles talking about being convicted of committing the crime. You committed the crime. Basically, stop that. One version has zero accountability
Starting point is 00:54:51 and the other one is taking some remorse and accountability. Parole denied. If I am to be released, I will make sure that all my time is held accountable. In case, you know, something like this arises again or I'll be arrested or if I'm being questioned for a crime again I will make sure all my time is locked parole denied Anthony right I presume that you still maintain that you did not commit the crime is that correct Yes, ma'am the last time I answered that question. I was hit with an additional 24 months, so I am afraid to say anything now I am you said that they give him 24 more months. Yeah, I
Starting point is 00:55:25 Understand that you're in a tricky situation, but according to what we have in front of us, you're guilty of the crime that you've committed. Parole denied. The next time Anthony's parole hearing came up, he told the jail administrator, thank you, but I would like to decline the opportunity to go in front of the parole board. I understand now that unless I take blame for the assault for the crime, they will not release me. I have nine more years left until I hit the max sentence and I think I will just stick it out. Wow. Anthony was denied parole five times before he was eventually released. But after 16 very, very long years in prison, Anthony Broadwater was out. He was out in the same world with Alice Sebold,
Starting point is 00:56:06 and their paths would inevitably cross once more. For 16 years, Alice had been trying to move on from the assault, but ADA, Gail, meets with her again and pulls out a bag, a large plastic zipper bag with underwear, the same underwear that Alice had been wearing 16 years ago. Wait, this is 16 years later? Yeah. They're meeting and looking at the evidence?
Starting point is 00:56:29 Yes. Okay. And Alice is looking at it. It had been preserved along with the trial transcripts and the ADA is handing them all off to 35 year old Alice. Alice needed all of these for the memoir that she's working on. She was gonna tell the story of her attack under the tunnel and how the crime shaped
Starting point is 00:56:46 her entire life. And everyone was just asking Alice, you're 35 now. This happened when you were 18. Are you sure? Like you want to go back there reopen all these wounds after it looks like it finally somewhat healed? After 16 years, this is what you want to do? Alice said any other story is just not going to work unless she's done with this one.
Starting point is 00:57:05 She needs to close this chapter of her life to move on. Even during the attack, she said she was somewhat aware that she would eventually write about it. Alice said, it's one of the ways that I stayed with myself. You know that thing where you shut down but you don't want to disappear completely so you reach out for the thing that connects you to life? For me, that was words, that was language, that was writing. So yeah, that's exactly what she wanted to be doing. That's what exactly she needed to be doing. The memoir was released and went on to sell more than a million copies. This was her first book, so this is written before Lovely Bones. What is it called? Lucky. Lucky, yeah. But also, it came out a year after Anthony was released from prison
Starting point is 00:57:50 Her attacker was free again, but hopefully this book would chain him back to the crime Meanwhile Anthony's 38 moving into his cousin's house. He had been in prison for the past 16 years He's a registered level 2 sex offender. So most jobs off the table He's just I'm so sorry in the book lucky is Anthony named She gives him an alias of Gregory Madison, but if you look it up, you could probably easily find him. Okay. Yeah. Now he's clearing people's driveways after snow storms. He's mowing their lawns. He's working as a roofer. He's doing demolition. He's just doing whatever he could get his hands on. One day if the best he could do was mop the floors, he would do that. And then the next day, he would go bag onions. He tried to get certified in some trades,
Starting point is 00:58:28 like air conditioning and heating installations. But in those classes, once they found out his criminal record, he was kicked out. Unfortunately, that's just the life you live with a conviction like that. Anthony said that there were probably less than 10 people that ever invited Anthony over to their homes. Nobody wanted to share a meal with him.
Starting point is 00:58:45 Nobody wanted him in their house next to their wives, their daughters, their nieces, not even his own family members. But could you blame him? He's a level two sex offender. He would be on the registry for the next 30 years. Can you really blame them? There is a knock on attorney Stephen's door. What is it?
Starting point is 00:59:07 You know that R-word case that you worked with, Magistro? The prosecution's victim wrote a book on it and you're in the book. It is unknown if Stephen remembered defending Anthony's case. It had been over 16 years at this point. And when he took on Anthony's case, he was so young, he was like a rookie, a starter. He was overworked.
Starting point is 00:59:25 He had just been in this for two years. It's unclear if he even remembered the details of the case, but he knew that they didn't win. That's how much he knew for sure. So he ordered the book and it came in the mail paperback, freshly printed. Stephen starts reading it. Stephen Paquette is going to bust all his pregnant ladies surrounding him, cross examining us, makes him look bad?
Starting point is 00:59:46 There's so much going on. Literally, he's named in the book and they're just shit talking him the whole time. And he keeps reading and something in his gut starts building. Once he gets past all of the choice words about him and the descriptions about his physical appearance that the author used, he wants to go back and read the book once more, from start to finish, like really read it this time. He never remembered representing a client named Gregory Madison. But he racked his brain and he finally came across Anthony Broadwater's file.
Starting point is 01:00:20 The author used a fake name. And now Stephen is intrigued. He reads over the transcripts once more, compares them to her memoir, and the statements aren't lining up. But also, there's so many details that she wrote about that are so incredibly questionable. Had he known these details and facts during the trial, he would have gotten the case thrown out. The judge was having private conversations with the victim. The police lineup was basically being rigged. I mean it's hard to say whether or not defense attorneys always believe in their clients and their
Starting point is 01:00:51 innocence, but one thing is very clear after reading the victim's book. Anthony Broadwater, who had been convicted on five counts and sentenced up to 25 years was innocent. Anthony really, really did not want to meet her, but his cousin insisted, no, just trust me, you guys are gonna get along and maybe you guys will feel like long lost friends, two souls that have been ripped apart. Okay, it's a bit dramatic,
Starting point is 01:01:21 but his cousin absolutely insisted and Anthony knew that there was no arguing. He was going to meet a woman named Elizabeth. This would be Anthony's very first date in 17 years. The date itself went well, but Anthony knew that it wasn't fair to Elizabeth, nor did he want to feel like he's hiding something from her, so after dinner he asks Elizabeth to come home with him. He hands her a weathered folder of documents, his trial transcripts, appeal, parole denials, everything.
Starting point is 01:01:46 He sits her down and says, I know this is weird, we just met, but if you're going to be with me, this is what I have on my back. This is what I carry with me. That night, he slept on his couch while Elizabeth spent the night in his room just staying up reading the file. The next morning she came out sat next to him and she started sobbing and she told him, I believe you, I believe you. And it was the same reaction the prison gang leaders had in prison, even the Aryan Brotherhood. They
Starting point is 01:02:19 said, you shouldn't be in here for this man, we believe you. To this day Elizabeth had not left his side. I mean, the both of them decided to find night shift jobs that they could do together. And it would be 3am, Anthony would be mopping floors in this creepy looking building, everything dead silent, the smell of cleaning chemicals giving him a massive migraine, and he would look over at Elizabeth, who's just holding her back in pain. She doesn't have to be here, she doesn't have to be doing this, she doesn't have to be with him or working these night shifts, but she did. Almost on a daily basis, Anthony was shocked at how
Starting point is 01:02:53 much Elizabeth stood by his side and not a single time did she waver or even second-guess or doubt his innocence. She was very firm. He said that she was the reason that he could keep his face up. And he promised her as long as she believed in him, he was never gonna stop fighting. So Elizabeth moved into his windowless broken down house that was held up mainly by tarp. They got married.
Starting point is 01:03:18 I mean, there was nothing Anthony wouldn't do for Elizabeth. Well, almost nothing. He would never have children. He said, I can't. I can't bring kids into this world with this stigma on my back. I can't bring kids into this world when their dad is a convicted sex offender. Elizabeth was broken, but it made him so angry because he wanted to give Elizabeth everything she wanted.
Starting point is 01:03:44 Anthony said, the hatred, the frustration, the pain, the disbelief, it was all manifesting. Meanwhile Alice Sebold's Lucky and Lovely Bones are released and they instantly become international hits. Elizabeth runs to the library one day reading snippets of the book. She comes home furious, not because it's not true, but because it wasn't Anthony. It's not him that did all these things. She tries to tell Anthony about all the misconduct that's literally written in text in the book, but Anthony said shh I don't want to know it's not about me. It's what happened to her. It's got nothing to do with me The whole world was behind Alice supporting Alice and all Anthony had
Starting point is 01:04:23 Was Elizabeth and his aunt, his aunt Mammy Lou. She was really the only one that supported him while he was in prison because his dad died a year end. She was the only one that wrote to him twice a month, every single month. All of Anthony's five brothers, they knew that Anthony probably wouldn't have done
Starting point is 01:04:41 something like this, but then why was he convicted then? They might think it is a little weird that Anthony got convicted because he's not someone who would do something like this, but it's also not easy to have a brother in jail for one of the more heinous crimes. They all started drifting away and moving on with their lives. And now, now that Anthony was out, he doesn't really have many people surrounding him. He said he would attend family gatherings once he was released, but it had been 16 years So much has changed and he could tell that a lot of the extended family members. They don't like him They don't want him there. He said I don't have a lot of pictures of my family members, you know
Starting point is 01:05:17 I mean I do I've got a lot of pictures of my family, but I don't have any pictures of me with them Anthony would save any and all money he could to try and prove that he was innocent. Even after his release, Anthony would spend $300 per polygraph test. He would take two and pass them both, but nobody cared. Later on, he spent one and a half months of his entire paycheck, sent it to O.J. Simpson's attorney with a letter saying that he was his last saving grace but the check would come back with a letter in the mail saying that he did not do appeals on convictions. Anthony had nothing to his name. He almost had nothing to his name ever. He never made more than ten
Starting point is 01:05:55 thousand dollars in a single year, working almost every single day, eight to sixteen hours a day. He only had this old boarded up house that his dad gave him when he passed, and it was eventually held up entirely by tarp. Most of the windows were missing. And at the end of that block, there's an elementary school that if he so much as walked past he'd be arrested. Dan Myers, the former sheriff turned private investigator, was hired in 2021 by Timothy,
Starting point is 01:06:24 a director, to look into Alice Sebold. So at this point, Alice had written three books. Lovely Bones was her second book that was released and it was turned into a movie. It was a massive hit. Her third book was kind of a failure, but her first book, Lucky, her memoir about her real life and this attack, it did really well. So a lot of producers were trying to buy up the options for that, trying to get that one.
Starting point is 01:06:48 Timothy, the director, got it. And as he's reading the new script, he's thinking it's weird. It's just not adding up. So in 2021, he hires a PI, Dan Myers. And Dan Myers was tasked with finding Anthony. And he goes, he shows up at Anthony's house and he glances around.
Starting point is 01:07:05 The tarp is just blowing in the wind. There's boards nailed to the giant holes in the house that clearly used to be windows. He looks right across the street and there's a cemetery. So not really the most healthy view to have. The PI finds a 60 year old man coming out with a giant scrap of metal that he's trying to recycle. 250 pounds of metal is about $36.
Starting point is 01:07:26 So Anthony goes around the city calling anyone who needs trash that has metal. He picks it up. He's 60. He picks up 260 pounds of metal and turns it in just to make $36. Hi, are you Anthony? Do you know they're making a movie about the woman you were convicted of assaulting? Anthony turned to him and he said well, it's a lie the whole conviction. It's a lie I Used to spend a lot of money on supplements
Starting point is 01:08:00 I would watch a tiktok about the newest thing that you need or you need to take for your health and wellness and I would immediately run to buy it. But at some point I realized not only am I spending a lot of money on these fancy bottles but I don't actually feel better. Like if I try an exercise routine and I make a green juice every day, in my head I'm doing it to feel better not worse. But somehow I always end up with headaches and stomach issues. If you're in the cycle of trying new diets just to fall back on unhealthy foods and then do a juice cleanse and then rinse and repeat, you should know that there's a better, more sustainable way to lose weight. The Row Body Program can support you through every step of your weight loss journey.
Starting point is 01:08:37 The Row Body Program pairs a weekly shot with your healthy lifestyle changes so that you can lose 15 to 20% of your weight in a year on average and actually keep it off. You can sign up for the ROE body program from the comfort of your own home and complete a fully online medical checkup. ROE's medical experts will help you create a sustainable diet and exercise program to help you reach your goals. If eligible for medication, patients have access to their provider on demand for any questions and ROE's partner handles all the insurance paperwork to help get medication covered. Average weight loss is 15 to 20% in one year
Starting point is 01:09:08 with healthy lifestyle changes. BMI and other eligibility criteria apply. Go to ro.co.signup today and you'll pay just $99 for your first month and $145 a month after that. Medication costs are separate. That's ro.co.signup. Get ready for puck drop at BetMGM, an official sports betting partner
Starting point is 01:09:31 of the National Hockey League. From game winning goals to spectacular saves, BetMGM gives you the chance to take those highlight reel NHL plays to a whole new level. BetMGM has something for every hockey fan, so you're sure to find a way to get off the bench and onto the ice all season long. Take your shot to light the lamp this season with BetMGM. Download the app today and find out why BetMGM is not only an official sports betting partner
Starting point is 01:09:55 of the NHL in Canada, but they're also the king of sportsbooks. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact CONNECTS ONTARIO at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BETT MGM operates pursuant to any operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. ["Sweet Home Alone"] The three of them are probably the most unexpected grouping
Starting point is 01:10:33 for a book club. Timothy, the executive producer of films. He hired Dan, the private investigator, and then Timothy hired Dave, a criminal defense attorney. And the book that all three of them were reading again is Lucky by Alice Sebold. In one hand, they had Alice's book, in the other, they've got the trial transcript, and they're bouncing quotes off one another, making sure that they're detailing all of this down, and it's becoming increasingly clear that Alice's book reads more like an
Starting point is 01:10:58 expose on prosecutorial misconduct more than anything. Investigator George Lorenz was the one to take Alice's initial report during the assault and without any explanation we just know that the detective who took the initial report said that he doubted that her report was completely factual. Side note he could very well be just one of those dangerous officers who likes to doubt all victims stories or he could have sensed that something was off about her story he wrote it is in this writer's opinion after interviewing with the victim of this case that the case as presented by the victim is not completely factual wait this is the initial one initial in
Starting point is 01:11:36 the very beginning when where did they write that in the trial transcripts and Alice wrote about it in her book. Being like, this police officer is crazy. He doesn't believe me. He doesn't believe me because he is probably an R-word apologist. And again, this is not to doubt her assault, but more so, maybe her description of the attacker. She does give a description of the attacker during the initial reporting of the crime and they do a composite sketch. Now, five weeks go by, the attacker is not caught and now Alice is walking on the street
Starting point is 01:12:06 and walks straight into her attacker. Anthony doesn't even remember seeing Alice that day on Marshall Street. He was trying to flag down the person behind Alice. Remember the red haired police officer, Paul Clapper? Yeah. They grew up in the same neighborhood. They're not friendly.
Starting point is 01:12:23 I don't even know if I would call them acquaintances It's like imagine, you know someone from your high school, but you never really talked to them You never really hung out with him. You just kind of know them. So he said hey, don't I know you from somewhere to the police officer? behind Alice but Alice thought he's talking to me She was certain that this is the one who attacked her and he was mocking her because he was getting away with it. This part I think some netizens are a bit more understanding about because a lot of victims have stated that everywhere they go after their assault they feel like they see their assault her on every street corner.
Starting point is 01:12:58 Anyone that even vaguely remembers their attacker, their panic responses kick in. It stated that this can be a devastating PTSD response. However, the authorities were really reckless with their investigations and that is putting it very, very nicely. A few things about catching Anthony after the attack. So much later, she sees Anthony on the street. And first of all, according to initial reports, Alice did not get a good look at her attacker's face. So the fact that she suddenly recognizes him on the street many months later is kind of weird. She said it was dark in the tunnel and her glasses were knocked off her face.
Starting point is 01:13:33 Initially, that's what she said. So that's already, unfortunately, at a minimum reasonable doubt that she can ID the attacker without any other corresponding evidence. Second, the sketch she gave the authorities the night of the attack did not match with Anthony five weeks later. So the night she was attacked she tried to give the most fresh most recent description of her attacker. They do the composite sketch, it looks nothing like Anthony. Another moment of reasonable doubt without any other corresponding evidence. But they track Anthony down, they arrest him anyway. But
Starting point is 01:14:03 why why would authorities just go off her description and honestly just vibes at this point because the description isn't even matching? I think this incident should tell you more than enough. After Alice reports seeing her attacker on the street, the police put her in the patrol car and they start driving around to see, okay, well maybe she can spot him again because it's likely that he didn't get too far. Alice is in the backseat trying to help them identify him. And at one point the cops see three young black men, none of them who matched her description, none of them, and she tells the officers, no they're too tall, let's keep going, it's not him.
Starting point is 01:14:33 The officer hesitates, parks the car and says, no they're troublemakers, you stay here. They're not doing anything by the way, they're just like hanging out. What? The cops jump out of the cop car and start chasing them down with the baton, which is absolutely beyond unnecessary. I mean, it's illegal. It's unhinged. They're not even doing anything. He gets back to the car and Alice asked them, wait, what did they do wrong? And he just shrugs and said, they're troublemakers and they should never talk back to an officer. Alice said she did realize how wrong this was. She wrote about it, how it was wrong to hassle and physically hurt three innocent young black men on the street for literally zero reason at all.
Starting point is 01:15:11 But she also admits that the police officer that did this was living on her planet. AKA, a planet where black men do not matter. I mean, she doesn't say it like that, but that's what it reads off as. She recognized that the cops saw her as someone to protect, and they did not see Anthony as someone to protect. The authorities bring Alice in for a police lineup after arresting Anthony. The police had five men line up in matching light blue shirts, they're wearing jail uniforms, and they were told to stand in a well-lit room and face the one-way mirror.
Starting point is 01:15:43 Alice was brought in, and she was going one by one. They could not see her. So they're man one through five. Alice was positive that her attacker was man number five and she wanted to throw up just seeing him. She could feel the wave of nausea. But she found some comfort in the assistant DA, Gail, who's a woman in a male-dominated field, and she's just helping her. She's like, are you ready? Alice is nodding and she's going one by one, and Gail is reassuring her since it's light on their side and dark in here, they're not going to be able to see you.
Starting point is 01:16:14 So Alice chooses number five, and she knew that she chose wrong. She could see it in the officer's faces. She even remembers feeling like she let Gail, the ADA, down. She wrote in her book, I felt myself collapsing inward. I had failed them, all of them. And this was the wrap-up. Gail would go on to other cases, better victims. She had no time to waste on a failure like me.
Starting point is 01:16:36 What? This is crazy, but in the book, Alice literally details misconduct from the DA and the police. She said that after choosing the wrong suspect, Gail walked in and consoled her and said, of course you chose the wrong one. He and his attorney worked to make sure that you'd never have the chance. The police try to warn the ADA from divulging further, but Gail the ADA continues. She has the right to know. She knows anyway.
Starting point is 01:16:58 The reason why it took so long, Alice, is because Anthony had his friend come down and stand next to him. We tried to send the car to the prison to get him here but they wouldn't go ahead unless he showed. Wait I don't understand he's allowed to have a friend stand next to him? It's the defendant's right and it makes good sense on a certain level. If the others in the lineup don't appear to the suspect to look enough like him he can choose someone to stand beside him. Well can we say that's why I chose the wrong person? No, it goes against the defendant's rights. They really worked a number on you, you know?
Starting point is 01:17:27 He uses that friend, that friend uses him in every lineup they do. They're dead ringers, they look identical. Gayle is implying that they always use each other to confuse victims because they look identical. The eyes, because remember how number five was looking at her? Gayle is like, the eyes?
Starting point is 01:17:42 That's the plan. The friend gives you a look that's scary. He can tell when you're standing in front of the mirror so he psychs you out. Meanwhile, the suspect looks down like he doesn't even know where or why he's here. He like he got lost on the way to the circus and so you pick the wrong one and the case gets thrown out. And we can't tell this in court? We can't use that in court? No. Not admissible unless he lets prior knowledge slip. Alice said the unfairness of all this seemed unconscionable to her. Man number five was a man named Henry Hudson. Henry Hudson did not know Alice, and Henry Hudson sure as hell did not know Anthony Broadwater.
Starting point is 01:18:19 They were not friends. They had just met for the first time in the police lineup. And by the way, they look nothing alike Really? Yeah. I mean it's ridiculous Yeah, yeah The only thing they have in similar is potentially their height and that they're both black men Yeah Yeah, so this is rather enraging because people have stated that even just watching one Law and Order episode you would know that you can't just ID the wrong guy and without strong DNA evidence still send them to trial. It's also worth noting that Anthony was so confident that he was innocent. He even volunteered to be in the lineup.
Starting point is 01:18:56 He was so confident that he was going to be dismissed, he volunteered to be in the lineup, he volunteered to provide blood and hair samples, and he took the lie detector test, which he passed. And his friends were advising him against all of this to be so willing and cooperative in the investigation. They told him the cops are gonna railroad you, which means they're gonna put you on a nonstop train to a conviction. They don't care about evidence or justice.
Starting point is 01:19:18 They've got a start point and an end point, and nothing's getting in their way. They're gonna ram through you. But Anthony was confident. He told all of his friends, it's the justice system. I know it's not beneficial for black people, but I'll give them whatever evidence they have because it's still not me. Like, how can you railroad someone when it's literally not me? It was also noted in the investigation that the attacker was right-handed, but Anthony
Starting point is 01:19:41 wrote with his left hand. So why do they want to get Anthony so bad? I think it goes without saying that his race probably played a predominant role, like massive role, in this shady investigation. But additionally, Alice stated that she felt really sick by Detective Lorenzo's initial reaction to her report of the attack. Remember, he was like,
Starting point is 01:20:00 I don't really believe this is completely factual. And people wonder if the police were trying to overcompensate for his initial reaction of doubting a victim At this point the DA's office was also known for losing SA cases They lost nine in a row and this was the first win that they needed in that calendar year. They had literally Zero prosecutions for the R-word in Syracuse for that calendar year The assistant DA Gale would even later state that Alice was their Joan of Arc figure who was going up against the impossible and the police all rallied behind her. She even stated that the judge seemed to feel a
Starting point is 01:20:32 fatherly feeling towards Alice which is not looking fair and impartial at all whatsoever. The trial itself is equally questionable and honestly it just felt rigged. Most people including Anthony, his attorney, his family and his friends, they were so certain that this case was gonna be thrown out that he was gonna be acquitted from the lack of evidence. Not a single one of Anthony's friends or family members showed up to attend his trial. They were certain they're gonna take one look at it
Starting point is 01:20:56 and be like, no, this is crazy. The trial was rooted in two key pieces of evidence. One, Alice's witness statement and two, microscopic hair analysis. So let's start with the hair. Microscopic hair analysis is actually quite a controversial process, so let me run you through how it's done and how it applies to Anthony's case because this is the bulk of their tangible evidence. They stated that the attacker's pubic hair was found on Alice when she was brought into the hospital. Anthony, at the time of his questioning and subsequent arrest volunteered his pubic hair
Starting point is 01:21:27 to compare the two hairs. Now in theory, if the two hairs are a match, that means Anthony's hair was on Alice, meaning he is the attacker, right? Let me run you through the process. First the hair is collected from the crime scene, victim and or suspect. Then the hairs have to be prepared. They're cleaned and then mounted on these microscope slides. A forensic examiner studies the hair samples under a comparison microscope and they put the two hairs side by side.
Starting point is 01:21:53 They look for a few similarities. The color, thickness, length, pigmentation patterns, and damage of the hair. They also focus on the comparison of the structure of the hair. That's it. They don't do any actual testing here. No chemical analysis, no DNA test, nothing. also focus on the comparison of the structure of the hair. That's it. They don't do any actual testing here. No chemical analysis, no DNA test, nothing. It's a microscopic hair analysis. They're just eyeballing it. I mean, albeit they're doing it with a super-powered microscope, but they're just looking for do these two hairs look the same visually? Is that like a standard?
Starting point is 01:22:25 It is no longer a standard because so many wrongful convictions took place because of it, the FBI has basically denounced this practice unless it's used with other evidence. This is more of an investigation tactic. So when you're investigating, just to lead you on the right path, this is when you would use it.
Starting point is 01:22:41 You would not use this and solely this in court because of how inaccurate it is. Hair is not like a fingerprint. Unless you're testing it for DNA, just visually looking at it, nobody's got a unique hair print like a fingerprint. It cannot provide a definitive identification of any sort. It can't even determine conclusively someone's age, sex, or even race. It can't even tell you when the hair was left at the scene or how long it's been there. Basically, it can only tell you if two hairs on a microscopic level look similar or not similar. Just using microscopic hair analysis
Starting point is 01:23:15 is like trying to identify a suspect based on a blurry photo. And sure, it might help you narrow down the pool, but you can't just point to a pixelated face and say, no, that's definitely our guy. Yeah, it's not really evidence. It's not. It doesn't prove a point. No. Hair is not a fingerprint. So, I mean, what? Now, remember how I said fingerprints are a lot more specific and definitive than hair analysis? Well, there are two things that could have been more important to the trial. One, they could have tested Anthony's bodily fluids as, you know, male fluids was collected from Alice during initial hospital visits.
Starting point is 01:23:49 But for some reason, some think that it was too tainted by Alice's own blood, that they could not do it. I'm not sure, but they didn't. And there was the whole knife thing, okay? There was a whole debacle with the knife. There was a knife found under the tunnel at the scene. It was taken in as evidence and there was a partial fingerprint on there.
Starting point is 01:24:07 The police wanted to run Anthony's fingerprints to see if it would be a match, but ultimately the judge would not let it be entered into evidence because Alice never saw it at the scene of the crime, which meant it could have been left there before or after the assault. There's no way to determine that the knife belonged to her attacker.
Starting point is 01:24:23 And even if the judge admitted it into evidence, there's no guarantee that Anthony's fingerprint would have matched the partial print on there. So really, all they had was microscopic hair analysis. And Alice. During the trial, Alice was presented as a very credible sympathetic witness. The DA asked her, is there any doubt in your mind, Ms. Sebold, that the person you saw on Marshall Street is the same person who attacked you on May 8th in Thorndon Park? No doubt whatsoever. At one point during the trial, Alice starts breaking down while she tells the jury about the assault and the bailiff who was standing next to her tried to calm her down and reassured her, I've been in this business for 30 years. You're the
Starting point is 01:24:59 best R-word witness I've ever seen on the stand. But she picked the wrong person in the lineup which you know talking about how unprofessional that is like putting that aside I would objectively hardly call that the best witness ever to take the stand and again I think we can hold space for Alice and be sympathetic towards her because she was likely very much assaulted and the perpetrator is still free but I think that's a different conversation I think we've had that conversation for the past 40 years while Anthony was seen and treated like a sex offender So I'm not gonna focus too much on that conversation. I think it's time for Anthony Alice's statements about her picking the wrong guy in the police lineup are just wild in the trial
Starting point is 01:25:40 She said five did look at me almost in a way as if he knew me, even though I realized you really can't see through the mirror. I don't know, I was very scared, but I picked five basically because he was looking at me and his features are very much like number four. It was between four, Anthony has four, and five, but I picked five because he was looking at me. It's like, you can justify that all you want, but at the end of the day,
Starting point is 01:26:05 like you're talking about someone's life. Yeah, I think that's why a lot of people are upset with Alice. I think the ultimate wrongdoing here are the police and the prosecutors. They basically railroaded this trial. But at any point, Alice could have tried to reflect or try to realize this is a human that she could be sending to jail. Yeah
Starting point is 01:26:28 You know reading the book in hindsight lucky. I do agree with a lot of netizens. It does seem that To her Anthony's just a side character in her main story and whether it's Anthony the attacker is just Yeah, Anthony's not really a main character to her. She's not view him in the same level as she would view herself. Yeah. There were some other wild quotes in the book about the trial. Alice wrote about when the jurors found out that she had never had intimate relations prior to her attack.
Starting point is 01:27:03 She wrote, they winced. They felt pity. Throughout the remaining questions, some of the jurors, not all she had never had intimate relations prior to her attack. She wrote, They winced. They felt pity. Throughout the remaining questions, some of the jurors, not all of them were even women. They fought back tears. I was aware of my loss that night was my gain today. Having been a virgin made me look good. It made the crime appear worse.
Starting point is 01:27:18 I did not want their pity. I wanted their win. The tears of one particular man in the second row, it made me cry. I cried a little then too. And the reality was that this too made me look good. She said, if Anthony stood next to his friend and played a game of eyes to psych me out, you remember because she thinks number five was his friend. Anyway, I digress. Alice continues. Then I would play the game back. I was authentic. I had been a virgin. I was also a good girl and I knew how to dress and what to say to accentuate that."
Starting point is 01:27:48 She continued, That night after the grand jury testimony, I called Anthony a motherfucker in the privacy of my dorm room, and I pounded my pillow and my bed with my fist. I swore the kind of bloodthirsty revenge no one ever thought possible coming from a 19-year-old college student. While still in court, though, I thank the jury. I drew on my resources, performing, placating, making my family smile. As I left that courtroom, I felt that I had put on
Starting point is 01:28:11 the best show of my life. When she was asked by Anthony's defense attorney how many black people were in the courtroom, she said, I see one black person other than the rest of the people in the room. Alice wrote in the book, I wasn't feeling powerful anymore in that moment. I was guilty for the race of the people in the room. Alice wrote in the book, I wasn't feeling powerful anymore in that moment. I was guilty for the race of my rapist, guilty for the lack of representation of them in the legal
Starting point is 01:28:32 profession in the city of Syracuse, guilty that he was the only black man in the room. Everyone in the courtroom would believe Alice's words over Anthony's. Anthony would testify during the trial and he was asked, when was the first time you ever saw Alice Sebold? Just today, never seen her before. He also testified that he had a scar on his forehead and under his eye. He also had a tooth which had been chipped while he was in the Marines. These were distinguishing features that Alice had never mentioned in any description. Anthony also denied that he knew Henry Hudson, number five in the police lineup,
Starting point is 01:29:03 or that he demanded that Hudson be placed in the lineup, which is just kind of ridiculous if you think about it. Like you really think that they're giving Anthony that much power to tell the police who he wants in the lineup, and the police are just gonna listen to him? Alice would not be there the day he testified. It was scheduled for the same day
Starting point is 01:29:21 that her sister would graduate college and her parents refused to let her miss the ceremony. And a lot of people wonder if she was there, if she heard Anthony speak, would she have believed anything? Would things have been different? The trial only lasted eight hours over the span of two days, which is an insanely alarmingly quick. I mean, the total time for an average essay trial, I mean to really nail it down is very hard But we did some math considering the average jury selection opening statements the cases testimonies closing arguments even without the jury deliberation time It's typically around 20 to 46 hours long. Oh the total was eight hours beginning to end. Yeah, so like four hours two days Wow
Starting point is 01:30:02 Anthony's attorney requested in the end that this be a bench trial, meaning that the jury do not decide and the judge decides Anthony's fate. The attorney believed that a jury, especially in a town of predominantly white conservative citizens at the time, would not be sympathetic towards Anthony. Well, and one last slap in the face for Anthony, because this was in Alice's book. During a brief recess, the judge, who Alice's book, during a brief recess, the judge, who had four daughters, had a brief private conversation with Alice and asked her what her family and father did for a living. This sounds not that serious. It sounds like small talk,
Starting point is 01:30:34 right? It is absolutely not permitted. Like this, judges are not allowed to speak privately with the victim during a criminal trial. This would be considered a violation of the defendant's constitutional rights. This jeopardizes the entire trial. After speaking with Alice, the judge walked into the courtroom and threw the book at Anthony. The judge pronounced Anthony guilty and he was sentenced to eight to 25 years in prison.
Starting point is 01:30:58 He would spend 16 years in prison. Anthony was offered a plea deal of two to six years and he refused to take it. Because he did not want to admit to his guilt. Because he didn't do it. So instead of could have gotten out in two to six years, he stayed for 16. Yeah. And then once he got out, it was it was bad. I mean, think about it he's wrongfully accused of R wording a girl at Syracuse and after his whole release he set strict regulations for himself stricter than the parole board he did not want any single excuse or reason that they could send him back to jail I mean I think a lot of that
Starting point is 01:31:38 trauma is from being convicted of something that he didn't do it's very different someone who gets out on parole after committing a, they don't want to go back to prison because they don't like prison. It's a horrible time. But someone who gets convicted of something they didn't do and are out on parole, they know even breathing the wrong way or even just innocently walking down the street and saying hi to someone you remember from high school could get you thrown behind bars for 16 years. They're gonna feel a level of paranoia and anxiety that is debilitating to their lives even just two years after Anthony's release there
Starting point is 01:32:09 was a knock on his door the police they wanted to ask him about another 18 year old white woman who had just been murdered in her apartment in Syracuse Anthony said I was so scared to death and he said oh no not me I work six tonight to six in the morning I'm on the computer at work. You could see like I'm clocked in, I'm on camera. He happened to at the time have a job that's highly monitored, meaning he has to clock in. There are CCTV cameras all around the warehouse.
Starting point is 01:32:36 But this experience, I mean, he wondered what would have happened if his alibi was bagging onions or mowing a lawn? Would that even work? So from then on, Anthony only took night shifts because most crimes happen during what he calls the witching hours, at night time. If he worked during the day and he went home at night to sleep, when you're a level 2 sex offender, that's not really a good alibi.
Starting point is 01:33:02 So he would stay home during the day when most crimes do not happen and then work solely at night so that he could have an airtight alibi all the time. Which side note just even putting aside the emotional trauma of that. Working the night shift I mean it shaves years off your life it's really insidious how bad the night shifts are for people it messes with your anxiety, depression, appetite, metabolism, even body fat. There's a rather strong link to lifespan depression and cardiovascular disease when people are working consistent night shifts.
Starting point is 01:33:32 That's what Anthony's doing. But now, after almost 40 years, 16 years in prison, almost 20 years being free, with the help of the director, Timothy, private investigator, Dan, and defense defense attorney Dave, all hired by Timothy, they were fighting to exonerate Anthony Broadwater. They gathered all the evidence and the only thing that let them really down was the rape kit was destroyed so they didn't have that evidence because they wanted to do a
Starting point is 01:34:00 DNA test to definitively prove that it wasn't him. But thankfully, they made it to court. November 22, 2021, Anthony walked into the courtroom, just a few buildings down from his initial assault trial. He walked in with Elizabeth. He's in his 60s, and he was exonerated. Anthony was 61 years old when he was exonerated from his false conviction. He was in prison for 16 years. He was forced to register as a sex offender for over 22 years. In Alice's book, she writes, who would have thought that something that happened that long ago could hold so much power?
Starting point is 01:34:38 The new DA told Anthony during the exoneration that I'm sorry is just not gonna cut it, that this should have never happened and he would make sure that it never happens again. Anthony said when someone who holds as much power as a DA says that to him, he said it was so profound, I couldn't help but cry. It was powerful. Right after his exoneration, Anthony rushed out of the courthouse because there was no time for celebration. He had to go. He had to go help distribute 80-something turkeys to the underprivileged because it was
Starting point is 01:35:16 Thanksgiving soon. During the first initial assault trial, Anthony's attorney tried to draw attention to the inherent biases in the proceedings. Remember he asked the courtroom, how many black people do you see in this room? Alice responded she only sees one. Later Alice would write in her book, the whole thing made me uncomfortable but this wouldn't be the first time or the last time that I wished my rapist had been white. I'm sure in those moments when Anthony was sitting there wondering how and why he was getting convicted of a crime he didn't commit, I'm sure he too wished he was white. Eight days after Anthony's exoneration, Alice apologized?
Starting point is 01:35:57 I'm not really sure she did. That's why I'm going to put it in quotations. She posted on Medium, which is a website where anyone can really post an article or a piece with, you know, of written content. She posted an unlisted article on Medium, meaning you can only find it if you have the link. It does not show up on Medium or Google search results. And interestingly enough, it's not even titled an apology from Alice Sebold. The title is Statement from Alice Sebold.
Starting point is 01:36:23 She wrote first I want to say that I'm truly sorry to Anthony and I deeply regret what you've been through I am sorry most of all for the fact that the life you could have led was unjustly robbed from you and I know that No apology can change what happened to you and never will of the many things I wish for you I hope most of all that you and your family will be granted the time and privacy to heal 40 years ago as a traumatized 18-year-old R-word victim, I chose to put my faith in the American legal system. My goal in 1982 was justice, not to perpetuate injustice,
Starting point is 01:36:53 and certainly not to forever and irreparably alter a young man's life by the very crime that had altered mine. I'm grateful that Anthony has finally been vindicated, but the fact remains that 40 years ago, he became another young black man brutalized by our flawed legal system. I will forever be sorry for what has been done to him. Today the American society is starting to acknowledge and address the systemic issues in our judicial system that too
Starting point is 01:37:14 often means that justice for some comes at the expense of others. Unfortunately this is not a debate or a conversation or even a whisper when I was reporting my assault in 1981. It has taken me these past eight days to comprehend how this could have happened. I will continue to struggle with the role that I have unwittingly played within a system that sent an innocent man to jail. I will also grapple with the fact that my rapist will, in all likelihood, never be known, may have gone on to rape other women, and certainly will never serve the time in prison that Anthony did. Throughout my life, I have always tried to act with integrity and to speak from a place of honesty, and so I state here clearly that I will remain sorry for the rest of my life
Starting point is 01:37:52 while pursuing justice through the legal system. My own misfortune resulted in Anthony's unfair conviction, for which he has served not only 16 years behind bars, but in ways that further serve to wound and stigmatize nearly a full life sentence. End. She would also make a few small statements to the Times where she says, It's hard to unravel a truth I now know to be false, and for that has been part of my life for forty years and my work for twenty, without my whole understanding of truth and justice falling
Starting point is 01:38:21 apart. Every word I've read that Anthony has said has made me see him as a man who, though brutalized, somehow came through it all with a generous heart. To go from thinking he was the man who R-worded me to believing that he was an innocent victim is an earth-shattering change." Alice also oddly brings up the fact that she cannot read or write anymore because of this life-shattering revelation. Yeah, she said it was a lot. She said, it's not just that the past collapses, the present collapses, and any sense of good I ever did collapses. it feels like the whole spinning universe that has its own velocity and if I stick my finger in it, it'll take me and I don't know where I'll end up.
Starting point is 01:38:58 which I totally get. I think it would be very traumatic to know that your real attacker got away with it and you played a part in an innocent man being sent to prison for a very long time. I think it would be very traumatic to know that your real attacker got away with it and you played a part in an innocent man being sent to prison for a very long time I think it would be absolutely traumatic I think it would be something that would rip me apart inside if that is how it played out Yeah, I don't know how I could really continue about my day There's no denying that But I also think there are times when you don't talk about your thoughts and feelings
Starting point is 01:39:23 Yeah When there's other parties involved not every feeling has to be voiced just because it's painful and unfair Sometimes silence and moments of pain to validate another party's pain That is likely greater than yours is the best thing you can do for that person No one's saying that she probably doesn't feel pain in this But she's just talking about it too much probably doesn't feel pain in this, but she's just talking about it too much. I don't think that anyone would blame Anthony
Starting point is 01:39:50 if he hated Alice or felt anger towards her, but he said he would like to meet her. He said, I would sympathize with her and tell her how I felt. I think that she's been a victim and I've been a victim. And to make a statement, I think it's strong for her to do that, understanding that she has been a victim and I've been a victim and to make a statement I think it's strong for her to do that understanding that she has been a victim and I was too it took a lot of courage and I guess she's brave and
Starting point is 01:40:10 weathering through the storm just like I am he stated if Alice's words are genuine he would accept her apology and would want to meet with her because if anyone can really relate to the struggle that he's been through in a very odd strange way it might be her. People asked what do you think you guys would even do if you met? He responded we might do nothing but stare at the floor and weep together. We don't know if that's what will happen because Alice does not want to meet Anthony, at least not as of right now. There is a quote from the lovely bones by Alice Seabold and it is when I was alive I never hated anyone but now hate is all I had.
Starting point is 01:40:48 But Anthony had no hate for Alice Seibold. But when someone starts a rumor that he's going to work on a new book with her, a spokesperson for him said he would be revolted by the idea of working with Alice Seibold. And all I have to say is there are a lot of very scary quotes in Alice's book referring to herself as being a good girl. And I think it's intriguing to a degree. I wonder if this is trauma that's left to be unpacked, but in this particular situation,
Starting point is 01:41:17 in hindsight, it reads very unsavory. This insinuation almost being that she's a good girl and this innocent man, Anthony, was still not as good as she was. She also admits that she's a good girl and this innocent man Anthony was still not as good as she was She also admits that she was a good girl a good victim that she did a good job telling the court what happened to her And perhaps that's what went wrong She's so obsessed with being good that she doesn't see her role in the system designed against innocent black men like Anthony and Perhaps when someone is good, they so desperately want and need someone to be bad. And again, this is not me questioning her assault.
Starting point is 01:41:51 That is absolutely not what I'm doing, but I am trying to understand why she was so quick to accuse Anthony Broadwater of being her attacker when it was so clear it wasn't him. Alice also makes another statement in a previous interview where she was asked if she would ever forgive Anthony and she said, it's a really common question and I'd have to say, of course not but I also don't think that it would be something I have to do in order to move on and live my life
Starting point is 01:42:14 I want him to be happy, I want him to connect to his family and community because then he won't hurt anybody else and he won't come looking for me, but I won't forgive him for what he did, no won't come looking for me but I won't forgive him for what he did no this case is incredibly complicated I think perhaps the best way to sum up the phrase is many things can be true at once Alice can both be a rape victim but can also be held accountable for past decisions people feel for Alice and can find empathy for her but they can also be very critical of her for other things and vice versa in the same sense because Alice wrote Lucky and she was actually a very pivotal spearheader of the Me Too movement. A lot of people credit her
Starting point is 01:42:53 for spearheading the Me Too movement completely and there is no doubt that her story helped a lot of other survivors and both of those things can exist and be true at the same time. She could have helped people while simultaneously hurting Anthony. Timothy the director said, I don't believe that Alice Sebold as an 18 year old bears any blame. She was a victim. She was doing the best that she could. She was being guided by an unethical assistant DA. But I do have questions about the 39 year old Alice Sebold who wrote Lucky. Before she wrote the book, she had reviewed the entire district attorney's file, including the photo of the police lineup.
Starting point is 01:43:31 Would she not have realized then in retrospect that suspect 4 and 5 were not similar in appearance? Would she not have had the opportunity to speak up at the time and review the trial transcripts and realize, wait, there are errors. Would she not have seen any of that? Many people agree with Timothy's view on this case and with Timothy's role in getting Anthony exonerated. However, like I said, many things can be true at the same time. And Timothy is not a great person. Timothy?
Starting point is 01:44:01 Yeah. The guy who helped him? The director. Yeah. So the director was very pivotal in hiring the PI, hiring the defense attorney, finding out the flaws in the book, and then putting it in, bringing it up to attention, right? However, he did try to take advantage of Anthony immediately after. Allegedly, he gave Anthony a conch. Allegedly, I don't know, okay? Well, people say he's not a good person, that's an opinion, not a fact, okay? Allegedly, Tim gave Anthony a contract
Starting point is 01:44:31 to sign that was alarming. He wanted to turn Anthony into a cash cow, or at least that's how his defense team and some netizens saw it. It was a sweeping contract that took all dramatic and literary rights to Anthony's life story with zero compensation at present date or in the future.
Starting point is 01:44:46 We could probably interpret that being Anthony could never share his own story and make money from it in any format or medium. Only Timothy could share Anthony's story. Anthony's story was no longer Timothy's. Yeah. Timothy also has a felony record, yeah. Which he served time for white collar crimes.
Starting point is 01:45:04 He would con investors allegedly. I mean, well, which he served time for, white collar crimes. He would con investors allegedly, I mean well not allegedly, okay, but Tim convinced people to invest in four million condoms and latex gloves from the UK. He told investors that he was going to take those condoms and latex gloves to Russia, trade them for chickens, and then he would take the chickens and sell them for a giant profit in Saudi Arabia. It was a lot. He got away with a lot of money and then he ended up in jail. So it's confusing. Even he is like a lot of... yeah, it's very complicated. But at the end of the day, Anthony is all that matters. I would include a GoFundMe for him, but it has since been closed. However, HBO did announce a docuseries in 2025 on his story. So keep an eye out for that because perhaps that is how we can best support Anthony and Elizabeth.
Starting point is 01:45:49 In Alice's memoir, she writes, I live in a world where two truths coexist, where both hell and hope lie in the palm of my hand. And thankfully, Anthony's hope was fulfilled. And side note, and not side note, but very, very important note, the false conviction and imprisonment of Anthony Broadwater should not be Misinterpreted as grounds for no longer believing in victims 18 year old Alice was attacked She was essay that fact is not up for debate the chances that Alice Ebold lied about her initial attack are slim to none and
Starting point is 01:46:19 although the statistics on false R word allegations are highly debated and Statistical analysts agree that they too are slim Although the statistics on false R-word allegations are highly debated, and statistical analysts agree that they too are slim. However, the fact that Alice was assaulted does not negate or excuse the ramifications of her actions, either intentionally or unintentionally. Because at the end of the day, Alice identified the wrong black man in the lineup. Why didn't she stop and wonder why? And we've seen the pictures, she's seen the pictures, Anthony and Henry Hudson look nothing alike.
Starting point is 01:46:47 If she knew that there was a possibility that she would be condemning an innocent black man for life, why didn't she take the time to be 100% certain in her identification? It's interesting, and consider this food for thought. If Alice identified the wrong white man in the lineup, would she have stopped and wondered why? Would the court have stopped and wondered why?
Starting point is 01:47:05 Would the court have stopped and wondered why? Perhaps that is our answer. To highlight all the different perspectives on this case, some people think that both Alice and Anthony are purely just victims, and some people think that Alice is kind of a victim, kind of not. One opinion writes,
Starting point is 01:47:21 "'I don't believe it's reasonable for Alice "'to be solely blamed. "'The judicial system needs to be held accountable. Alice was R-worded. Her R-worder was not brought to justice, and an innocent man had to pay the price. But other netizens argue that's not true. They say that's not true at all.
Starting point is 01:47:36 And to even compare Alice's victimhood in this right now when she had a role in all of this felt wrong. One comment reads, you see, it's the tone of the comments like this that really bugs me. The valuing of the trauma of a white woman over the trauma of a black man is frustrating. Maybe that's not your intent,
Starting point is 01:47:52 but it feels subconsciously racist. Another reads, Seable didn't really apologize to Anthony. She carefully put together apologies that blame the system, which she was an innocent part of. While what happened to her is horrific, the fact that she later saw a black man and that she was 100% convinced that he R-worded her with no evidence whatsoever puts just as much guilt over her as it does over the system. Another one reads,
Starting point is 01:48:16 she identified the wrong guy and sent him to a cage for 16 years and effectively ruined a life and she gets away with no comment and we think that's okay? No, I'd like a comment Alice. But this one I think sums it up well. Two things can be true at once. One, Alice Sebold was beaten and assaulted by an unknown assailant. Two, wrong man was sent to prison for it. And it's amazing how many people can have trouble truly comprehending this. Anthony has filed a $50 million lawsuit against the state of New York for wrongful imprisonment. He has won $5 million and after his lawyer fees,
Starting point is 01:48:50 he will likely take home 3.6 million, which is not nearly enough. But he does wanna buy a big plot of land in the countryside, pay for Elizabeth's surgery, and he just wants to take her there, plant some pear trees, apple trees, and watch whatever remaining sunsets and sunrises he has left.
Starting point is 01:49:07 Anthony said, that's the most rewarding thing there is. All I wanted, ever, was my freedom. My freedom and my innocence. That is all. And that is the story of Anthony Broadwater. What are your thoughts on this case? Did you know this was all happening with the lovely bones author? Please let me know in the comments and please stay safe.
Starting point is 01:49:28 I will see you guys on Sunday for the next episode. Bye!

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.