Rotten Mango - #44- The Sinister Staircase (Case of Michael & Kathleen Peterson)

Episode Date: March 4, 2021

From the outside - they’re perfect. Wealthy, educated, compassionate, veteran, with 5 children in a blended marriage.  When Kathleen is found dead at the bottom of the staircase - all of the Petersons' family secrets come to light. We have more questions than ever… IF she fell (like Michael Peterson claims) why was there blood soaking the floor & walls? Why did Michael delete personal emails right after he found out his wife died? Why do people believe an owl (the bird) killed Kathleen?  And what about the other woman in Michael’s life found at the bottom of a staircase?  Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yeah, the fame got him, okay? He was practicing this butterbeam Butterboom shenanigans running before the podcast. He was like, babe, babe, how do I make it spookier? I'm like, no, don't, please. So this week's episode is about, man, we're revisiting it about Michael Peterson and Kathleen Peterson. A lot of times this case is known as the staircase case because you are talking about a very suspicious fall down this staircase. There are so many plot twists in this one. There are so many opinions. This is a case. If you have a strong opinion about it, this

is not going to be the podcast that you were going to enjoy because I don't have a strong opinion. I have been into this for weeks now. I have watched so many. I've watched the Netflix documentary series. I've watched other documentaries on this case and I think this is kind of a situation where it's solved and unsolved. So in the court of law, it is technically solved, but it's unsolved in public opinion. So it's kind of divided. You've got a big group of people who think Michael Peterson is completely innocent. You've got a big group of people who think he's absolutely without a shadow of doubt, a guilty mother for curve. And I kind of am somewhere in the middle where I feel like the more I know, the less I know.

So I'm gonna just do a deep dive on this one. okay? And I'm gonna try to make it as short as possible because even just the Netflix documentary series is a 13 hour shenanigans, okay, it's 13 hours, 13 episodes of sometimes absolutely nothing and we'll get into that in a little bit. So Michael and Kathleen Peterson, yes, it starts off like every other story of potential spousal murder. They were the perfect couple. They really were. So Michael, he is a Vietnam War veteran, and I might call him Mike for the purpose of just shortening it. And he was

actually injured while fighting for our country. So like, wow, amazing. And I say it in our sarcastic way because we'll get to it. And he had a New York Times bestseller book. Like, I mean, this guy is accomplished. So he went to an amazing university. He graduated from Duke University. Then he went off to fight in the Vietnam War. Then he wrote all these books about war, and they were best sellers, and all of these amazing things. Now Kathleen, she was 48 years old at the time,

and she was actually even more accomplished than him. Oh yes. So she is the first female student at the engineering school at Duke University. I mean, this woman, she's intelligent, smart. She became a high-powered executive at a Canadian company, I believe, called Nortel. I've never heard of them before. Yeah, this is a massive company.

And she was an executive there. She was super smart. And she, I mean, I don't know what to say. Like, I saw so many pictures of her and she's got this beautiful smile. She looks smart too. I don't know what to say. Like, I saw so many pictures of her and she's got this beautiful smile. She looks smart too. I don't know how to describe it. Like, I would love to have had a conversation with her.

Like, she looks like someone who has a lot of advice to give and someone who's just, you know, very... A accomplished. Yeah, very, almost motherly, but still accomplished. And the definition of pick your role models. Like, this person should be like a girl's role model. So when she's at Duke University, she meets her first husband,

and they end up having a daughter together, then she found out that he was cheating on her. That wasn't Mike. No, her first husband. And so they get a divorce and she was just like really going through it. Her and Caitlin, her daughter, they were just trying to figure out what's next,

like this is a completely life-shattering moment, and then that's when Michael Peterson He had just gotten back from Germany and he's got all these kids So Mike Peterson was once married before too, so I'm just gonna give you like a lowdown on how they met But we're gonna get deeper into it later So he was in the V&M more than he went to Germany at one point and he was based in Germany and his wife Patricia at the time So she was teaching at a military base. So she's teaching there.

It's going really well. They have these two sons together. They're both born in Germany. And they have a close American friend of theirs where both of them die. The parents die. And they have these two young daughters. They're like one year old, two years old.

And so because their friends, the couple had just died. They decide to adopt these two girls. Oh, their friends' kids died. Yeah, their friends died. So they adopt their friends' kids. That's massive. Yeah, Margaret and Martha are the two daughters and they get adopted by the Peterson.

So they move back to the States because they're like, listen, now we got four kids like what's going on? Like that was devastating that our friends have died. And so they come to the US, they're like, listen, now we got four kids, like what's going on? Like that was devastating that our friends have died. And so they come to the US, they get a divorce, and Mike moves nearby to where Kathleen and Caitlin are living. And Caitlin actually becomes really close friends with Margaret and Martha, the adopted daughters. And they play with Barbies together.

And so of course, if you've got these young kids hanging out, then the parents are eventually gonna hang out. And you've got this newly divorced dad, this newly divorced mom, and they just kind of fell in love. And they both went to the same school? Yes. But they didn't know each other. They never met there.

Michael is about like 10 years older. So he's much older than Kathleen. So they never really crossed paths, but they did go to the same college, right? Graduate from the same place. And so you know, the daughters keep playing together. So they're like, okay, this is amazing. Like, they're getting along.

We're kind of hitting it off. And eventually they start dating. Then it gets more serious. They get married and they all move in together. And they have this beautiful wedding at their house. I think there was like 150 guests there. Like, it was this beautiful moment. And everyone constantly said,

Kathleen was so happy. Like, she just was so, so content. I mean, her last relationship, she was cheated on, and now she found this man that she completely trust, like completely, you know? In case Stephanie, that's just the most intelligent shit you've ever said. Just completely trust her completely.

But like, honestly, I think Michael was incredibly lucky to have her because here's the thing. Kathleen, she was a do-it-all type of woman. You need to prep dinner for 50 guests. She can do it. An accomplished corporate career. She can do it. She's an amazing mother to five children now.

She did that. She's an amazing wife. She said that plus more. Like she just, what couldn't she do? Like that's literally what everyone says about her. She was juggling all of this, especially during the time that this took place. So again, like I said, it seems like they're like the happiest couple in the world. They even bought this sprawling mansion.

Like massive. I'm talking three and a half acre lot. It's completely gated. This is a 10,000 square foot six bedroom just like off the top of my head. Yeah, why do I know so much about their house? Weird. Yeah, it's this huge house. What are you doing with?

In Durham, North Carolina. OK. So they bought this amazing house, and they were just kind of known as like the Durham elite, like upper society. Like this is an insane house, one of the nicest houses. Yeah. And so he was making money from his books.

She was making money as an executive. Like it was just amazing. And the crazy thing is like at one point, she was making money as an executive. Like it was just amazing. And the crazy thing is like at one point all of the kids were living there. So Martha and Margaret, the adopted children of Mike Peterson, were calling Kathleen Peterson mom now. They started calling her mom when they got to high school because they were like, listen, I just feel like she does

so much for us that it just makes sense. Like she's our mom really. In the full aspect she gives us love, she gives us shelter, she just, there's nothing else that really. In the full aspect, she gives us love. She gives us shelter. She just, there's nothing else that we would want from someone who we would call a mom. And it was like this beautiful thing. They really, all of the kids would say

that they really only thought when dad would come home late from the gym. Because Kathleen would already have dinner ready. And it would be like this big joke of like, you're not even that puffed-dad. Like, why are you at the gym? Ha, ha, he ha. You know, their family had dinner together

every single night. Like they constantly said that they are all super open and they all loved each other and they all just call her mom. Why do you say it like that? I don't know. I feel like maybe it's coming from... Is there more to it?

I mean, see, this is where... This is where I get a little negative Nancy. Maybe it's coming from like a weird family household I'm like listen anytime someone says that they've got the perfect family and they're all super open with each other I'm like someone's freaking lying. Okay. There's some teenager out there lying to you. There's some parent me growing up Yeah, I thought everybody else had a perfect or better family than me But the more I get to know every individual I just realized nobody has a perfect or better family than me. But the more I get to know every individual, I just realize nobody has a perfect family. Every freaking family has their own sets of crazy You don't take a 23andMe as a group, okay? You keep it down.

What? DNA test. Do you know how many families these DNA tests must have broken up? Oh, so many, I bet. Yeah, listen, too dangerous, okay? So they just live in this perfect bubble with this perfect family, okay? Of course, shit's gonna go down. So the night before Kathleen's death, I'm just gonna give you the lowdown because this kind of gets important.

So David is a co-author for one of his books. So David and Mike, they wrote a book about Vietnam together and it was like this amazing thing. It was a New York Times bestseller and this Hollywood executive was like, listen, I think I want to turn it into a movie. So they were in the talks. David's talking to the executive. And finally, David was like, wait, so you're telling me it's a go ahead and the executives like listen, I've been signed anything like I'm not telling you, but like, you know, it seems like a done deal.

So David, he gets excited, he calls Kathleen and Mike and Kathleen picks up the phone and they were together. So they talk for about 10 minutes and he said that everything was same. Like nothing was weird, there was no tension, there was no stress, everyone was goofing around, they seemed in good spirits, and it was just a super exciting time. I mean, you've got this book turning into a movie soon. You've got Christmas that was just around the corner, because this is December of 2001,

right? So like December 8th, and she just loved entertaining, she loved hosting, so there was just a lot of good things happening, is what a lot of people were trying to say. Now December 9th, 2001 comes around, and this is where everything just crashes and crumbles, and it's like a car accident waiting to happen. So Michael and Kathleen, they went to blockbusters. I was literally about to say like 2001 wasn't that long ago, and then I'm like, they went to blockbusters.

They rented a movie called American Sweetheart, so they're watching this movie in the living room, and they're eating dinner in front of the TV This is the knife. Yeah, okay, so Michael claims that at 11 p.m. The movie ends they leave all of their little you know Plates in the living room. They're like, oh, we'll just clean it up tomorrow like these are very specific details By the way, and he's like giving it to us and he's like yeah So we left our plates in the living room then we headed into the kitchen So we go to the kitchen and he said it's normal for us every night to talk for about two to three hours. We just kind of had glasses

of wine. We talk about two to three hours. We talk about the movie. We talk about the kids. We talk about, you know, all of these other things. We just kind of like enjoy a glass of wine. And so they were drinking wine. Yeah. So they move out to the balcony. And he said that it was a nice night out. It was a beautiful in North Carolina in December I'm from the south and I'm like was it that beautiful? I feel cold, but he was like, yeah, it was a nice night out. We went out there We drink wine out there. Then we went to the pool. So the way that their house is set up They're rich. So like the houses here the balconies are you got to like walk to the pool like it's not just like you open your door

Like hey pool, right? So they walk walk to the pool like it's not just like you open your door like hey pool right so they walk down to the pool they bring their glasses they sit on their pool chairs and they're drinking more glasses wine and they're talking and they're just enjoying this night and she had taken a volume this is kind of important so that's a sedative it can be used for anxiety muscle relaxer to treat seizures whatever the case is it like a counter no you have to be prescribed, I believe. But I don't think it's, I mean, you definitely shouldn't mix it with alcohol, but I don't know if this was like

that big of a deal because her blood alcohol level wasn't that high later. And so she had taken a volume and they're just talking, finishing their drinks, and the dogs row out there, Michael is saying all of this. And then she's like, hey, listen, Mike, I need to go upstairs and I'm just gonna like head in for the night because I have this conference call

in the morning and I just like, I can't stay up all night with you, right? So he's like, okay, like good night, love, and she starts walking into the house and he decides, you know what, it's a nice night, I'm just gonna be happy. I think I vaguely remember this one now. Yes, and he's just like, you know what, I'm just gonna stay out a little bit longer. So she's wearing her little flip flops and she heads into the house and that was the last time he saw her alive. Well no, he said she was alive when I found her, but barely. That's a direct quote. And I don't know why that one's kind of sinister.

And so he says that he just kind of like fell asleep. He didn't really remember. He says he yeah, he says he does stop. Now mind you Michael is wearing short sleeves and shorts. So he says that he kind of does stuff. He doesn't really remember maybe like an hour had passed, maybe two, he doesn't even remember what time they came outside to the pool. And so he was on the porch for at least half an hour to 45 minutes smoking a pipe.

And eventually, he was like, you know what, I'm gonna go inside. So after around two in the morning, he goes inside to the house. And that is when he places the first 911 call. So he calls 911 and this one is a huge argument for a ton of people. So he's like, listen, my wife's been in an accident. She's still breathing. She fell down the stairs. She's still breathing. She's not conscious. You know, he seems super panicked. They keep asking like how many steps,

how many steps and he's like, I don't know, like 15, 20 steps. Like, please get an ambulance hurry and it seems hysterical and then he disconnects the call. So there's a dial I don't know, like, 15, 20 steps. Like, please get an ambulance hurry. And it seems hysterical. And then he disconnects the call. So there's a dial tone heard at the end of the call, which means it's not that it was called failed. It's not like the dispatch hung up. He hung up on 911. A lot of people had lots of problems with this first call.

So this is public record. You can find it on YouTube, the 911 call. I didn't think it was that alarming. It was a huge deal breaker for me on this one. What problem? Some people said it was weird that he just kept saying like, she had an accident, she's still breathing, she's not conscious, and then the fact that he just hung up.

It's some people thought it was weird. It gets weirder, and I'm sure in the big scheme of things, it's even weirder because he is a pretty suspicious dude. And then a couple minutes later, he calls again, and now he says she's not breathing which makes sense too no like oh she was breathing and then if you realize she's no not breathing then you'll be like oh my gosh she's not breathing yeah yeah it would make sense until the paramedics get there that it starts not making sense okay so then he's like she's not breathing she's not breathing, are you guys sending them? Where are they?

And then they tell him that the paramedics are on their way. He hangs up the phone again. So when the EMTs arrive, they said that the blood was completely dry pretty much. They didn't have to wear any protective garments. Because when there's active, flowing blood, liquid blood, they have to protect themselves, because it's hazardous. But it was really dry.

None of them got blood on them. It was strange. So during this, there was no attempt at CPR by Michael Peterson that he has admitted. So after the first 911 call, he didn't like hang up to administer CPR. He didn't do any of that. So while the police are walking in,

around this time, one of his sons comes home too. So during this Michael and Kathleen were home alone, and now one of the sons is coming home. And he's like, what's happening? Like my dad called me. Yeah, he said my dad frantically called me and something's going on, right? So he gets to the house, the police walk in, blood everywhere.

I mean, the amount of blood in this staircase is insane. Wait, so the paramedic god there, there was bloods are dry. Yeah, but there's so much of it. Oh, they're just all bloods are dry. Yeah, but there's so much of it. Oh, they're just all dry. It's all dry, but there's so much. I mean, up the wall, like nine and a half feet up the wall, there's blood splutter. And then the amount of blood on the actual staircase,

there's just tons of blood. Kathleen's sweatpants, so she's like wearing this like gray color dish sweatpants, they're soaked in blood. Kathleen's hair is like soaked in,. Kathleen's hair is soaked in, like there's just so much blood. It's kind of insane how much blood there is. And so immediately they said that this doesn't seem consistent with someone falling down the stairs.

Listen, I'm a certified idiot, but me looking at the crime scene photos and I'm really scared of blood. So this could be completely biased. It seemed like a lot of blood. Like I've tripped, I've fallen, but I have never seen that much blood in my life. I mean, it's just so much blood.

Now there were also strange things about her positioning. So it didn't seem like she came to a final resting position after falling. These are what a lot of, quote, experts are saying. So her head was leaned up against a step. So she was laying on her back. Her head is leaned up against a step. Her hands are on her lap and her legs are spread not necessarily wide

But just kind of apart from each other. So like she's just kind of imagined like almost a zombie like Situation where you're just kind of you know and it was weird now around her. There were paper towels There was a towel on her head It seemed like someone had tried to kind of clean up some of the blood on the wall or the stairs That's what they said it looked like. The police said it did not look like a fall down the steps at all. So they come up with a theory on the spot.

Like they're ready to go. They're like listen, just looking at this blood, we don't think that this is an accident. So they think that she's been beaten. She's, you know, in shock she recovered. Then she struggled with Mike Peterson. Then he bled into her to death on multiple locations. So they're saying not only was it like one hit on the head or two

hit on the head, this was a struggle, some situation. And she eventually bled to death. That was their conclusion that this was a homicide. The paper towels and the towels nearby, they made it even look more guilty because it's like, was he trying to clean up blood splatter to make it not look like it was blood-forced trauma, was he trying to clean it up and then he hit her again, like, what's going on, you know?

And the reason that they come up with the idea that there was multiple different struggle points. So meaning maybe he hit her on the head, she lost consciousness, he came back, hit her again, is because they're saying that it looked like some blood splatter had looked like it had been cleaned and then there were more blood on top. Does that make sense? Like something had been smeared and then blood splatter on top, so they're saying that it looked like some blood splatter, it looked like it had been cleaned, and then there were more blood on top. Does that make sense?

Like something had been smeared, and then blood splatter on top. So they're like, listen, it seems like something weird's going on. Was it after the first 911 call? Like, what's going on? So they get a search warrant, and Michael's brother is actually a lawyer in Vegas.

So immediately, he calls them and is like, hey, this is what's happening, and this is how the police are treating it, and he's like, listen, you need to attorney the fork up because they are treating you guys like suspects. No one is in there investigating this quote-unquote accident right now. And so he just kind of shuts down.

And it becomes like this really weird tense situation. And it gets even more tense once we uncover more of the details. So the stare itself, right? I think when I first heard about this case, I was imagining like this really crazy like spirally staircase, like something like marbly, something very slippery, right? But the stair itself is kind of like a straight line. It's a back stair. So they have two stairways in their giant house. Now this back one is like one of those hidden

ones. So it's completely straight up. And then at the end, it's got like maybe three or four steps that curve through a small doorway. It's not like this grand opening. It's pretty dimly lit. It's not the widest staircase ever. And so it just kind of gets a little bit narrow. So here's what's interesting. She actually wasn't coming down the stairs, but they believe in her positioning that she

was going up and fell backward. So she's walking up the stairs, lost her balance, hit her head on the doorframe, hit her head again on a stair, and then try to get up and then hit her head once more. So if you go with the accident theory, so there was just a ton of blood near that area. So they start they start thinking maybe she tripped, like maybe she fell backwards, like what's going on. Now the police are already so suspicious of Michael because I mean, look at all the blood of the crime scene, right? So they start searching the rest of the house because they're like, there's just something weird about it.

Like let's try to do the best that we can and find all the evidence that we can. So they go into the kitchen and they bring in the two wine glasses as evidence. Now this is where it gets interesting. Those two wine glasses that were just neatly sitting on the kitchen counter, you would think, obviously this matches the story.

They were drinking wine. They went outside, they came back in. Where else would you put obviously, this matches the story. They were drinking wine. They went outside. They came back in. Where else would you put these wine glasses? Now Kathleen's fingerprints were nowhere to be found on either of those wine glasses. So who was drinking the wine? Where would she drink the wine then? This just doesn't make sense with his story, right?

But they didn't know that at the time. They just collected them as evidence, probably just to see if there was something in the wine, right? And there was a speck of blood on the kitchen cabinet. And this will come into question later. So it's like, wait, did Michael Peterson find her, then come into the kitchen? But why would he do that? If why would he just immediately call 911, stay with her? Like, what did he come in the kitchen for?

Like, it almost made it seem like he was walking around the house after he found out that she had, you know, quote, fallen. So at the front of the front porch, there was a minute drop of blood. So this comes into heavy questioning later, because it's just like, why is there blood there? From? Yeah. There just, it doesn't make sense for there to be blood. I mean, why is there blood there, right? If she just fell and then you find her, you didn't go outside, you stayed inside, called 911 and what? Yeah.

So they immediately taken Kathleen and they also taken all the clothes that Michael's wearing because if he were to be hitting her, administering some blood force trauma, there would be blood splatter on his clothing, right? Like I said, he was wearing t-shirts, he was wearing shorts. He had socks and shoes that he later took off, which, okay, so they collect all of that.

Now immediately police said that it seemed like water had been splashed onto his pants. Like that's what they felt like. It just looked like it didn't look like it was just all blood because, I mean, obviously they were bloodied up. Like if you look at the pictures of Mike's clothes, they have lots of blood. But he's saying I cradled her like I was holding her because after I called on everyone, I was freaking out. But it looked like maybe it splattered water on them? That's what the police say. It just seemed a

little bit weird. So they bring that in. Now, there has also been the question of, did Michael Peterson clean up any bloody footprints? So the police claimed that they tested the floors and there were evidence of bloody footprints being cleaned up after the fact. So if you were to find your wife or someone that you love at the bottom of the steps dying, right before the police scum, would you be cleaning? Would you be trying to bring paper towels and wipe up blood? No. Yeah. So I mean, it just got a little bit weird.

For some reason, they don't even mention this at the doctor's. At all. Hmm. These are recorded, police. So that's where it gets even weirder. A lot of pictures were taken at the docu series at all. These are recorded, please. So that's where it gets even weirder. A lot of pictures were taken at the crime scene. So you will even see pictures during the trial where there's the kitchen cabinets with little specs of blood on them.

But here's where it gets weird. Some of them don't match up. So you will have one kitchen cabinet picture, the same cabinet, and one of them has a spec of blood, and then the other one doesn't. And when asked about it at the trial, the person was like, oh yeah, I think it's like a photo glitch. So it's a photo glitch. A photo glitch?

But then how do you know that none of the other photos have glitches? So it really just became like a he said, she said type of situation. It just gets even weirder, okay? And so yeah, they said that it seemed like someone had cleaned up these bloody footprints. Now, that doesn't necessarily, someone is guilt, mean someone's guilty. Just because you do some weird shit doesn't mean you murdered someone. Doesn't make it more likely? Yeah, maybe, okay? But it doesn't mean 100% just because you clean up some bloody footprints that you were guilty of murder, right? So, moving on. This is when Candice she comes in, right? So Candice is Kathleen's sister and she becomes a pivotal point in this entire case

for multiple different reasons. So she was living out of the, I believe out of the state at the time. So she comes and she's like, what's going on? Like, you just told me that my sister's dead. Like, how could she be dead? Like, what are you talking about? She gets to the crime scene.

There's blood everywhere. And she starts freaking out and Michael just keeps telling her like she fell your sister fell your sister fell And she's like none of this is making any sense like what do you what do you mean? Like how does she just fall like that and he was like listen? It's just this crazy tragedy and it happened after an amazing thing like I almost closed this movie deal We were celebrating that night. We were drinking wine together I mean she was taking a valium to try to relax herself so that she could get some sleep before her conference call And it was just a tragedy like we were celebrating

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So all of the kids are coming and they're rallying behind their dad and everyone is just so saddened by this because I mean, they're not thinking with the police are thinking they're not thinking oh my god my dad just murdered my mom they're thinking this was a horrendous accident like we just lost our mom like we're just grieving we're just going through it and this is a really sad loss right and that's when news comes in that he was indicted for murder so he's got to go turn himself in, right? And the day that he turns himself in, he is interviewed right outside the courthouse and he says, Kathleen was my life. I whispered her name in my heart a thousand times. She is there. I would never have done anything

to herder. I am innocent of these charges and we'll prove it in court. Now one thing you have to remember that a lot of people point out is that Michael Peterson is a fictional author. He writes a lot of, he writes books, he's a novelist, he writes novels. So he's really good with his words, he can be slick, he can be, you know, a little too smooth. And I think this is a situation where it's like, I don't know, like that's a little weird. It just doesn't come off as genuine in my opinion. Like it just doesn't come off. Like he's what he said. Yeah, Kathleen was my life. I whispered her name in my heart 1,000 times. But what if that's how he feels? And that's how he expresses himself.

He just like, yeah, if that's the case, I don't think it did him any good. Oh, really? Yeah, because it just comes off so sleazy, you know? It's like another thing to just like, I think it's more relatable for a normal person to look at you and be like, oh, he does look really sad, right?

But he's like, I whispered in my dreams a thousand times, have voices like a Fleminga through the wind, like it's like, what are you saying? So it was just a little bit weird, right? Now during all of this, the one thing that really helped him in the beginning is that all of the kids rallied behind Michael, most importantly, Caitlin, who was Kathleen's biological daughter and the stepdaughter of Mike Peterson. And she said that her mom would have been appalled if she learned the charges against him. So he gets out on an $850,000 bond and he comes back home.

So during this time, he's still spending the time with the family. Everything's going great. $150,000. Doleless. And so everything's going, I wouldn't say great, time with the family everything's going great. 150,000. Duelless. And so everything's going, I wouldn't say great, but like the family is together. They're a family unit at this point. And then the autopsy gets performed. So this autopsy was performed by a Deborah Raddish who is a medical engineer.

By the way, how old are the kids? So at the time I actually wrote this down because I thought it was very interesting. They're all in like, they're early or late 20s. So Caitlin was the, no Martha's the youngest at 18. Caitlin is 19. And then Clayton is one of the sons. He's the oldest. He's 27. Okay, so they're all in there about. Yeah, so the two sons are in their like mid to late 20s. And then all the girls are like in their early 20s. So they're all really young. And so, you know, all of them

are rallying behind them. So they are topsy, right? Deborah Raddish does it. And she takes pictures of the back of Kathleen's head after shaving her head. And listen, the police, the medical examiner and me, a certified idiot, I mean, it just kind of seems crazy. The way that the, like, there are just these crazy lacerations on her head, they said it was so bad that you could peel the skin because of the lacerations. It wasn't like bruising, it wasn't necessarily like if you hit your head on something and you got like a bump, you know, it was like, yeah it just seemed really weird. Imagine the way that I can picture it, if you guys don't have the stomach for it,

imagine the bald head and just seeing someone kind of like slice it in different ways, seven different times and they look pretty deep and they're very red and the skin is kind of coming up. So it's just really intense injuries. They said, the police said, it's almost like a pogo stick. Like this only makes sense if you fall down the stairs, falling head first bouncing along the way. Otherwise how does this happen from falling down the steps? She had a .07 blood alcohol level that's not even considered legally impaired to drive. She can still drive a vehicle and not get arrested. She had value in her system, yes, but a lot of things just didn't make any sense. So the first being that she has these seven really deep lacerations on her skull she didn't have any brain bleeding. She didn't have any bruising swelling or skull fractures

So typically you would see that if you saw blunt force trauma is what people say So it's interesting because she's got these like intense I don't want to say superficial wounds, but like from the outside But the inside her brain wasn't going through typical blunt force trauma type situations but the lacerations were bad bad she didn't have any broken bones in her hands or her ribs which a lot of people say is very you know consistent with blunt force trauma you're like trying to protect yourself they didn't even try scraping her fingernails for any DNA which I thought was interesting so I did see a redder point out it probably

wouldn't make any sense because this is our husband Like it's me like having some of your skin under my nails It wouldn't be like the biggest thing in the world But um, I still feel like maybe they should have tested it They said that if you were to fall down you would have injuries where your bones kind of protrude out of your face So you're talking like your bro your brow line your chin your nose You've got these like you know harsh brow points those would have injuries But it's like you had these tiny little cuts and scratches all over her face in our arms

That just didn't make sense with the fault like how would that happen? It just looked more like defensive wounds is that what people said She had her own hair in her hands Which is again super common for people who are trying to defend themselves holding their hair like holding their hands up against their head To protect themselves clutching their head for protection, and inside of her hands intertwined with her own hair, were microscopic feathers. This is going to become so important,

we're going to get to the olive theory later, okay? She also had a fracture of a thyroid neck cartilage, so this is common with manual strangulation, which is really unlikely from a fall. So this is common with manual strangulation, which is really unlikely from a fall. So it's like this fracture. They call it with a hemorrhage on the small extension off of the left thivard cartilage. It's common in strangulation or attempted strangulation. Like her neck had a fracture, like a hairline fracture. Like you could have neck trauma with a fall, but like not this type is what a lot of people said I am not like an expert in any of this Especially like next stuff

But um that's what they said so they believed that she probably died around two hours before 911 was called does that add up? Oh, yeah, I mean they were out there at like 11 or 12. No, it doesn't add up Oh, cuz he only stayed out for an hour. No, he said he might have stayed out for an hour or two He doesn't remember So that part hats up, but I mean It just seems weird so he she just like died in his arms and then the blood just like dried immediately Oh, so she definitely wasn't alive Yeah, that's what people think but then obviously you could totally argue that he came in right as she was dying

and all of the blood to be blood had already blood out and dried and there was just little bits of blood coming out now. So there was like that argument. So it kind of, I mean, it kind of matches, but it also seems so far-fetched. It's like, yes, it totally could be a possibility, but like, what is the possibility of that? So clothing analysis, they start analyzing her clothes because they're like, this is a little bit weird

Why does she have so much blood on her like pants area like what's going on and the plants show a lot of blood That was out at different times. So that's why the police again confirmed their idea that she struggled It wasn't just like one point and she started bleeding. That's it It was like blood and then new blood on top of old blood That was kind of like the what the evidence was adding to. Now the defense start trying to use this for themselves and they're like, oh, well that's because she probably hit her head on the door fine. Then she fell to the ground.

Then she's like sitting there bleeding, she tries to get up after a little while and then she falls to the ground again. And that's why there's different types of blood. So I feel like both theories, if you really wanna make it work in your head, you could do mental cartwheels and you could get to the end of both theories

That's what makes it kind of confusing. Now here's where it gets weird There was a partial footprint on the back of Kathleen's sweatpants A partial bloody footprint that matched Michael Shoes that he was wearing that day. Why would there be? What I mean she was laying on her back. Why would why would I be a position on the sweatpants? Yes on the back of her sweatpants. Well, how would that even happen? So if he comes, she's already laying on her back, how would he step on her back?

And wouldn't you think to be incredibly careful with your wife who might be dying in your arms right now? But he just stepped all over her and was like, hold on honey, I gotta get the phone to call 911. And it just doesn't make any sense on that one so a lot of people theorize that maybe he attempted to keep her down and hold her there so after he had hit her maybe he had put his you know foot on her the back of her sweat pants kind of held her down and then hit her some more okay so by the time the police get there he had

taken off his shoes and a socks and he said that it was because the ground was slippery so he just like didn't want to slip and fall. Now a lot of people think maybe he did that so that he wasn't tracking foot, like bloody footprints everywhere. So like he would wear those shoes where the blood was and then he takes them off, then he can like walk upstairs, walk to the kitchen and not have all this blood trail. So that was kind of like a theory. It was just like really weird that he's just running around barefoot now.

It is weird because you don't really think about that. I imagine. I'm saying, yeah. It was taking off your shoes. What? Like, I mean, like, if I see you dying over there, I'm not worrying about, am I gonna, because I'm not running around. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's really odd. That does sound odd. But it's also a situation where if I feel like you were dying, I, even if we've got the coolest rug, the nicest carpet,

what do I care about that? Like, I'm just running around trying to make sure you don't die. Yeah, exactly. And he said it was because it was slippery. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's because he was in his 50s, he's older. And maybe we don't think about that yet, but maybe we could slip and fall Maybe Everyone's mad at me for saying that. Sorry, but like you know what I mean

Some things just become a little more important right with age And so there was a lot of emphasis on the blood splatter of this entire case So there's blood splatter allegedly going in different directions now I want to keep saying allegedly with blood splatter because the more that I learn about blood splatter in this case the more that blood splatter seems like such a weird concept. Okay. So apparently it's going in different directions. You could argue that this happens in repetitive beating because blood would be going in different directions. How else would it be in different directions? So the DA gets on

this and he's like, listen, we're going to press charges. There's no way that this is an accidental fall. This is, this is absolutely homicide. So DA hardened, he really wanted the family to be on his side. Why? Because it strengthens his case. Not because it gives him justice. Like this is the crazy thing about this case. It's literally just both sides trying to win. There is no justice in any of this, I think. It's just the strangest thing, okay? So he's like, listen, I want them to be on my side because it's good for objects. Like the price sees they're sitting on the prosecutor's side because, you know, court is split up into two different sides.

They're sitting behind me. They're giving interviews to the price with me, you know? And so he asks sister Candace, Kathleen sister to come in and she comes in. And at first she was like really adamant like No way this is murder like you're fucking out of your mind You're fucking marbles like they love each other so so much. You don't even understand you don't know what you're talking about Gosh, right and he's like listen These are gonna be really bad

But I want to show you the crime scene photos because I think the minute that you see these you might change your mind And so she's like whatever you show me like I'm ready want to show you the crime scene photos because I think the minute that you see these, you might change your mind. So she's like, whatever you show me, I'm ready. I saw all the blood in the staircase. We're already in the state to show me the crime scene photos. The first picture she took out of the envelope was the back of Kathleen's head that was shaved. He shows her these pictures.

From that point forward, with the autopsy, Candace and Caitlin felt like they relied to about everything. So we've got Kathleen Sister and Kathleen's biological daughter who then now decide, you know what, I think Michael Peterson is fucking guilty. Because of it was the autopsy with the crime scene photos. You know, I think the same thing you've told me so far, right? Yeah, they were just it raised doubts. So much doubts. They were just like, this just doesn't make any sense and so the rest of the children They were behind Michael so we've got the two daughters and the two sons they were sticking with Michael

And they were like there's no way that he did any of this and the the family was completely torn apart I mean this is yeah, it was just really bad So immediately Michael Peterson has lawyer it up and he's actually hired an incredible defense attorney Like this guy is really well known in the South, highly regarded. His name is David Rudolph. And people describe him to be bright, polished, media savvy. He actually represented a man by the name of Ray Karuth, which if you guys don't know, he was part of the NFL.

He was part of the Carolina Panthers. And he signed a four year, $3.7 million deal with them. And he was stating a real estate agent by the name of Shereka Adams. She was pregnant with her child and she refused to abort that child. I mean she wanted this baby. She was like, listen, I don't care like I'm gonna be a single mom. Like if you're not a part of this, I'm still gonna have this baby and he didn't like that. And so he had someone shoot her for times and she was found murdered. I mean she suffered, yeah,

she was in the hospital for like I believe weeks before she finally she was pronounced dead. They found him guilty for a conspiracy to commit murder but he was not found guilty of first degree murder and his sentence was only 18 to 24 years. And David Rudolph was his attorney. Her baby also did end up surviving. I know people are gonna ask about that, but he suffered from permanent brand damage and cerebral palsy as a result of being without oxygen for 70 minutes. So this was a high profile case with a lot of emotions,

a lot of press, a lot of opinions, and David Rudolph got him off from first degree murder charges and just conspiresy to commit murder. So obviously, David Rudolph is like, listen, I'm challenging the autopsy, it just doesn't make sense. Like, yes, there's these deep lacerations and yes, they look gruesome and they look crazy. But there's no brain bruising, there's no brain bleed, there's no, you know, none of that, like what's going on with that.

So what is the truth here? Now, let's get into the truth about the Peterson's life because they were not the perfect family and we know that now. We would have never known this but we know it now. So the truth about their life is that Michael wasn't exactly who he claimed to be. So he claimed that he's like this amazing person. He was injured in Vietnam, like fighting for this country. Yes, but he actually wasn't injured in Vietnam. He did have injuries to one of his legs that was really, really severe, but it wasn't because he was serving our country. It was because he was in a car accident in Vietnam. He did have injuries to one of his legs that was really, really severe, but it wasn't because he was serving our country. It was because he was in a car accident in Japan. So he never served?

He did serve, and he did want, like, win a couple of medals, but he claimed that he had, like, the purple heart, like, because, you know, there was, like, this landmine and his colleague had walked over this landb and it just blew up and he watched his colleague just die and he just- He just storytelling. Oh yeah. And then the shrapnel, the landmine shrapnel just like came into my leg and I was like limping and I almost died. And it was like this whole thing, you know, this is what he told everybody.

And I was like thank you for serving our country like you're so brave. Right? And people loved him which is crazy because like I mean it's just crazy okay. So they find that out. Now here's what's even crazier. Well the prosecutor thought it was crazier. There was a lot of gay porn in his computer. There was a lot of gay porn in his desk. Like he had printed them out which I think is a little weird not because I think gay porn is weird but because like I don't know it's is a little weird. Not because I think gay porn is weird, but because like, I don't know, it's just a little weird to print out gay porn.

Like, it ain't porn. Every is old, you know? I guess he's old, yeah, but he had it on his computer and printed. So it was like this weird thing of like, is he like trying to be digital? Or like what's going on? I don't mean, I don't know, right?

So he has all these printed photos. He has a bunch of images saved on his computer. Now, there were a couple droplets of blood on some of these pages. So this is about 60, I wanna say like 60 feet away from the crime scene, like the den is really close to the back staircase. So why was there little bit of droplets of blood

on these pictures? Oh, maybe he's tried to get rid of them, yeah, before. So detectives also remember that the night of the crime scene when they got there, he was like to get rid of them, yeah, before. So detectives also remember that the night of the crime scene when they got there, he was like, kind of on his computer, like using the computer and they're like, okay, that's like really weird. Can you stop using your computer? And so he stopped.

The police actually seized his computer because they're like, you're being freaking weird and we've got a search warrant. So we're taking your computer, right? And that's when they find out that he was trying to delete tons of material. I mean there was on his computer not deleted about 2500 gay porn images. He had lots of different other things. He also had emails with male escorts that he was talking to. He had some of those printed which I thought was weird. So of email? Yeah, like he's like his own detective from his own cell. Yeah, he like printed out these emails Now the night of Kathleen's death people think okay, like this is a new motive, right?

We didn't know this before but now knowing this maybe this makes sense So let's say they are this happy family But Kathleen had actually left her laptop at work. This has been confirmed apparently So she leaves her laptop at work. She's got this conference call in the morning. Maybe she wants to get proud for it. Maybe she needs to print something for it. And so she did something which she never really does is she uses Michael's computer after she gets in from the pool. Now the police believe that she saw these emails or maybe these images and she confronted him because here's the thing like her first marriage ended because

her first husband cheated on her. In fidelity is in fidelity like it doesn't matter and so she confronts him and she's like listen I'm not gonna stay with you like I left my first husband for the same thing like I'm this is even worse because you knew how bad the first marriage ended because of the cheating and he was like listen you can't leave because she was the breadwinner at the time. So he goes into this rage and he kills her. Now the images, that's one thing. Like images, that's fine. Everyone watches porn. Well not everyone, but a lot of people. And it's nothing to like get that mad over, usually. I'm trying to be really inclusive right now. I'm like, I mean, if you get mad over, it just don't get murderous, I guess, right? And so, you know, there was porn, but there

was also the fact that he was talking to a man out of the country that he met on a website for gay military men, and he wanted to see this person, and he wanted to see a bunch of other people. Now, Michael does end up admitting to sleeping with other people while he was in this relationship with Kathleen.

He said that he never dated anyone. It was never a real relationship because Kathleen fulfilled that part of his life, plus the sexual part. But there was just this different part of him is how he explains it. So he has had multiple affairs in his first marriage with Patricia as well with men and now he was kind of doing the same thing with Kathleen. But he wasn't having an active affair at the time of her death is what he's saying. So we've got all of these pictures of specifically gay military men and, you know, porn. There's just porn, right? And he said that he had sex

with about five to seven different men during his marriage with Kathleen, and he's claiming now that Kathleen knew all of this, that she understood it, that she would even joke about it. Sometimes they would go to military bases together and she would joke, look, they're all gay, just like you, they're all touching each other and patting each other all the time. And he made it seem like she was completely fine with it. But the police are like, this is kind of a motive because affairs usually are not good for your defense, okay? Like, this is bad.

It doesn't matter if you're bisexual or gay or straight, like, it affairs and a fair and that's not going to go well in court, okay? And so there was also the evidence of his writing. So his writing was a little bit weird. So, um, his books on the Vietnam War, I know when I initially explained it almost seemed like he wrote these autobiographies about like what it's like being in the trenches, the struggles of that, like fighting for freedom, fighting for your country. And there were aspects about it, but there was a lot of sexuality intertwined. And I'm sure maybe this is real in those military bases because I've never been on one, right? But he would say things that I mean obviously don't represent the military, but it's a little weird.

So he says, you cannot kill and be unaffected. Like an animal who first tastes blood, so is a man who kills. When he sees how simple is the act, he is forever disposed to that thirst. Perhaps he'll never kill again or ever want to, but always in his mind is the knowledge of the act, the awareness of its simplicity, the peculiar reminder of elation, sexuality that accompanied the deed, and too that he was licensed, rewarded, or simply never caught. So it seems like there's always kind of like sex and violence intertwined in his books, which I know when we talk about serial killers, we're like sex and violence is always somehow

intertwined, right? You'd also write these short stories, like, for example, hell is not being happy, and being happy is what? Being happy is doing what you want. Doing what you want is an exercise and pleasure. Fucking genius. Big sarcastic. Therefore, being happy is doing what gives you pleasure. He said a whole lot of nothing,

but he ends it with loving, sacrificing, murdering. So he's literally talking about a poem about what makes you happy, you know, doing what gives you pleasure is what makes you happy, and then he's like loving sacrificing murdering. So it's just really weird. So these there, even these are being used against him. Yeah, so some of this wasn't admissible in trial, I'm sure, but a lot of it just like comes into the question of like the full picture of like, okay, is there something going on here? I've got it all mapped out. I've got the whole plan set up on how I'm going to get a cat list and I'm going to get a cat. I even have outfits dedicated that are in shopping cards ready to go

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Now, here is some other arguments that they were having financial issues, which they don't really talk about in the docuseries for a lot of different reasons, right? So a lot of people claim that the family was actually going broke. So the three daughters, they were all in these procedures colleges that were, I believe, private, so you're talking about a big tuition there. The two sons, they were in need of financial support. They were actually in a lot of debt. So these two sons, they had so much debt that they were charged, they were getting charged a thousand dollars a month in just interest fees. I mean, that seems like a lot, no. I mean credit cards sometimes

do that to you. Yeah. And so the couple themselves, they had $143,000 in credit card debt spread across 20 different accounts. What about assets? They don't have much assets. So that's where it gets kind of confusing like they do. So every single year for the past three years before Kathleen died, they were spending $100,000 more a year than they were making.

So they were spending a lot. So Michael Peterson, he hasn't made money in at least two years as with people claim. Like there was no income, like he wasn't making giant money from royalties, like these books. They were just kind of like falling flat. Like no one wanted to sign any more book deals with him. No new ideas were being sold.

And so Kathleen was the only one holding all seven members of float financially. So at the time of her death though, some things were going down. So Nurtel, the company that she was working for, they had spent weeks firing like over 40,000 people. Like they were crazy downsizing. And she was the one letting these people go. So then she's like, listen, I feel the pressure. Like I think that I'm going to be next.

She was complaining to her friends, her family, her sisters, that you know, there was just a lot going on. She was worried about her job security. They had a lack of money. They couldn't even fix up like leaky plumbing in the house. That she was complaining about that, allegedly. So months before Kathleen's death, emails also show that Mike was like searching for financial help for his children. Like he's like emailing people about it. He emailed his first wife, who, you know, the two sons are their shared together. And he said, listen, I need you to take out like a, like a mortgage loan or something, like a home equity loan, because our kids are in debt and he ended the email with, it's simply not possible for me to discuss this with Kathleen. So it just

seems a little weird. Like it seems like maybe Kathleen would be like, what the heck? Like why are you doing this? Like you need to get a job then, right? It just seems like maybe Kathleen would be like what the heck like why are you doing this like you need to get a job then right It just seemed like maybe there was a reason now. She did have a life insurance policy of 1.4 million dollars Why is this not a bigger motive than it should be it's because it was later split between Caitlin and her first husband So Kathleen's first husband so it didn't go to Mike Peterson But he did inherit a couple of things. He inherited, like, I think, at $350,000 worth of her 401k and all of these other things. So, like, the defense, they bring in this witness and they're like, okay, is this true? Like, do they have a net worth

of close to, like, $1.5 to $2 million? And they're like, yes, they do. So it's kind of weird. So if they sold all of their stocks and stuff, they would have as much as $670,000 in profits But the prosecutors they kind of screwed it up because the way that they did their math was they were factoring in checks written to buy Stocks as expenses So like they were saying if you bought $5,000 in home spending of like you know paying for Instead of investment. They, instead of investment, they're thinking of as they're spending. Yeah, but if you bought $20,000 worth of stocks this month,

I mean, I don't know how much they did. It's just maybe that's not a good number, right? Then it's like they would write that as expenses. So are they in debt or are they investing? So it seems like they were having money issues, but they were investing. So it's kind of a for debate. They said, even if they were to sell everything at that moment, they would be worth

about $1.5 million. So they're not like dying for money. Right. Okay. But it still seems a little weird. It's not that serious. But it seems kind of strong in the sense that Kathleen, if she left, she would have taken most of it. Okay. So it's not as serious as like, oh, like we're dying for cash, but it is like she's probably the one controlling all of this. She's probably the one that's invested, you know, and especially if he's having an affair and she can prove it.

I mean, the court system is not going to go easy on Michael Peterson for that. Yeah, just to show you how weird the prosecutors got, they also did this thing where she would be spending for the company, Nortel that she worked for and she would get reimbursed for it, but the prosecutor would never show that to the jury. Like they'd just be like, look at how much she spent. And then the defense is like, but look at how much Nortel paid her back

and reimbursed her for that. So it was just a little bit weird, but they did have debt, okay, if people are wondering. They did have debt. So it's weird. Let's weird, but they did have debt. Okay, if people are wondering they did have debt So it's weird. Let's talk about him running for mayor This is another nasty truth that came out So all of these are just like coming up to become this big giant monster that's after Michael Peterson at this point So he ran for mayor and this is when he got exposed in the town of Durham

So he claimed you know the whole story of the purple, like he was wounded in battle, like his friend stepped on a landmine. Oh my God, shrapnel in his leg. Like all of these crazy things. And it turned out that that was all a lie. And people found out about it while he's running for mayor because you've got other potential mayors that are like, no, forky, we're gonna expose you, right?

So he came out and Kathleen lost a lot of friends from this. I mean, she had to choose between, and this was her first time finding out about it. So he had lied to her too. And she was like, what? You were in a cheap accident in Japan. Like you weren't, like you could have just said that. Like nothing's wrong with getting in a car accident.

What's wrong with you? And so she had to decide between, you know, okay, is this like a divorce marriage ending situation? Or do you forgive him? What's going on? And so she forgave him. And she lost a lot of friends from this. Now, yeah. So it seems like he's a very specific type of personality.

Yeah. Like, he's made up this crazy story and then he wants to run for mayor. Yeah. So he seems like he cares a lot about how people see him. And then like the books, I'm sure he's like this author. And he like makes books. I'm sure he's like this author and he like makes it all fancy. He's like a whispered her name a thousand times at my heart. So he cares so much about everybody. And what makes it even crazier is that this was a huge, huge

thing in their marriage. Like imagine finding out this lie, but also to do it in such a public manner. It would be, this was massive. He actually ran for City Council a month before Kathleen died. So I don't know if this starts up more emotions or if this starts another fight. Maybe she's like, what the fork are you doing? Like get a job, like why are you trying to be part of City Council?

Like can you do something else, right? So that was just kind of something to be noted. Now this is where the strange coincidence comes in. This is the part that really makes people think that my comparison. Yes. Quick question. Was that movie deal a real thing? So David has co-author was interviewed and he said it was a real thing. Now I don't know if it was like a real thing and then they were like, oh like now this happened. Of course we're not going to act like it's a real thing. There was no papers. There was nothing

signed that I could find. Like it wasn't, but also they never said it was like a signed done deal. It just seemed like the person that they were in contact was like, yeah, I like, like, likely it's going to happen. Like it's pretty much a done deal, right? You know, and then the next day that this happened, they're going to be like, no, we never said it was a done deal. Bye. Yeah. So this is where the strange coincidence happens. The police are asking around the friends and family about all these questions about like, you know, where they in love because we're finding out about these affairs and stuff. And a ton of friends just kept saying, you know, this is just a double tragedy because something similar happened to the girl's moms.

The adopted girl's birth moms. Margaret and Martha's birth moms. Now the police, they remember getting a bunch of phone calls from a woman by the name of Margaret who is Elizabeth's sister. Okay, this is important. So Elizabeth Ratlif, I always want to say Ratcliffe because Danny Ratcliffe. Elizabeth Ratlif. Elizabeth is Margaret and Martha's birth mom. Remember how he adopted these two girls? Yes. This is their biological mom. Yes. And she passed away in Germany when they were all friends in Germany. Uh-huh. These two American families were friends in Germany because Elizabeth and Patricia, his first wife, Mike Peterson's first wife, they were teaching at the military base. So they became friends, then of course the husbands became friends, and then the couple died. Their friends died, so they adopted their two daughters.

Well, the biological mom, she was found dead at the bottom of her stairs. In Germany, 18 years ago. Fell? Stairs? That's what they said. But the police are like, what? That's weird. That's not just a strange coincidence.

The police kept saying lightning doesn't strike twice. So let's go into Germany. What happened there? So there's a guy by the name of George Ratliffe and Elizabeth Ratliffe and they are the couple, right? So George is also in the military. They get along from all these and then Paddy and Elizabeth They're teaching at the military base. So it's like the perfect couple. I mean they're both in Germany They're both American families and they're like listen like we all speak English and like we can just like raise our kids together Like military families. Woo! And they get along really really well. Now when the girls are really young about one or two years old, George actually ends up dying

in a military exercise so he passes away and patty and Elizabeth are really close friends. So the Peterson are like listen Elizabeth why don't you just come and move nearby like maybe a couple doors down like across the street so that it's easy for us to like check in on you for you to come over anytime. We can babysit your kids, you can babysit ours. It will just, we'll just take you in, you know, essentially. And she was like, yeah, I mean, that's amazing. So after she suddenly becomes a single mom,

I mean, she's like really, really thankful for all the help that they're giving her. So they're like, okay, like this is amazing. She moves in. And so now that she's like this new single mom and she wasn't planning on any of it, she's just really happy that the couple's there giving her. So they're like, okay, like this is amazing. She moves in. And so now that she's like this new single mom and she wasn't planning on any of it, she's just really happy that the couple's there for her. Like especially Michael, like he's always giving her advice

on how to take care of things that George had initially taking care of for everything, right? Now the day of her death, so Elizabeth, her two daughters, they went to the Peterson house, they enjoyed this dinner together. And Michael's like, listen, it's dark outside, I'll walk you in the girls' home. So they leave, they walk across the street, and the next

morning, Elizabeth's nanny arrives around 8 in the morning and she immediately is like, oh, something's weird here. The light is on, the front door is unlocked, like this is not normal, this is not normal. So she walks inside and she sees Liz at the bottom of the staircase in a pool of her own blood. And so she immediately feels for a pulse and she said that the body was still warm. So she's like, OK, I need to get help. She runs immediately to the Petersen house. And she's like, you guys need to help me.

She's freaking out, OK? And she doesn't know what to do. So Michael and Patty, they rushed to the scene. And Michael tries to get a pulse. But he's like, oh, she's already dead. And Barbara's like, no, no, no, no, no, she's warm. We need to call the cops. We need to do this. We need to do that, right? And she's like, oh my god,'s already dead. And Barbara's like, no, no, no, no, like she's warm. Like we need to call the cops. Like we need to do this.

We need to do that, right? And she's like, oh my God, I need to go check on the kids. So she runs upstairs. The babies are OK. She starts throwing up in the toilet. The nanny, because I mean, imagine how crazy this is. So she's like throwing up in the toilet. And she just remembers Mike running to her and telling her,

like, get a blanket, get a blanket, like get a sheet. I want to cover a list up. And she's like, what are you talking about? What do you mean cover her up? Like, she's still warm, did you call the police? And he's like, yes, yes, I call the police. But listen, she's not alive, she's dead. And she's like, no, no, no, like she's warm. And Michael told her, no, it's because the floors are heated.

And so she's like, what? And so they're waiting for the police. I mean, this was a shit show. So Barbara said that there was just blood everywhere. Like there was blood all over the walls. She said it felt like she cleaned blood for weeks. Like there was that much blood. Now Patricia and Mike, on the other hand, they claimed that there wasn't that much blood.

That there was blood. But there wasn't that much blood, right? So then another family friend, um, who's friends with Elizabeth and the Peterson, she her name's Amy, she was walking in with her husband because they all heard about the commotion they freaked out. They came in and they immediately, the first thing they saw was Michael standing in the corner, Patricia was like falling apart, okay?

So Patricia Peterson is like not having a good time right now. And they kept asking like, why is there so much blood on the walls in the floor? And like, why did someone cover Elizabeth with like a coat, like what's going on, right? And they're just saying, like it must have been a brain and you're like, she must have fallen down the stairs. That's what Michael keeps saying.

And they're just like, what? That isn't like any sense. Like Amy's just like, I just, I don't understand. Yeah, that's odd. Yeah, and she remembers that Elizabeth was still wearing her boots. And she's like, that's weird. Yeah, and she remembers that Elizabeth was still wearing her boots. And she's like, that's weird. She always takes off her shoes when she comes into the house.

So either this feels like she was running away from someone or trying to escape. She wouldn't keep her boots on and then fall down the stairs. She wouldn't even go upstairs with her boots on. So I'm just a little bit confused, right? I mean, none of this makes sense. A witness would later come forward, lay her and say that a man was running from the house earlier that night, but she could never ID. Now, I mean, technically, it could be Michael Peterson, because he did walk her home that night. But I don't know. It's just a little bit weird. So

then other family, family, friends from Elizabeth, they remember seeing that there was so much blood, like just so much blood. Now, it's only it were that easy. None of this was reported to the police in Germany. None of these friends told the German police like there was so much blood. Like they didn't really say much. So Michael was acting like this books person for everything. So he had called the German police department, he had called the military police, and they all get there and he keeps telling them, you know, I think that there's reason that there's so much blood because her medical history, you know, she was suffering from headaches, she probably had like a brain aneurysm, she has a blood disorder. So, I think that there's reason that there's so much blood because her medical history, she was suffering from headaches,

she probably had a brain aneurysm, she has a blood disorder, so that's why there's so much blood. That's just kind of runs in her family. And so the police look around, they see all of this, other than the blood, there's no signs of a forced entry, there's no signs of a struggle, they process the scene, the medical examiner rules it death by accident or fall, they take no pictures of the scene because it's an accident, it death by accident or fall, they take no pictures

of the scene because it's an accident, it's not a crime scene, they don't have to take pictures. So nobody really knows, was there so much blood or was there no blood? Now, devil's advocate, okay, I'm gonna be honest, I lean more towards I think that he's guilty, right? But devil's advocate, I do know that I've read somewhere that blood is just like a weird thing with humans Like you could get like one tablespoon of blood and just kind of smeared on the wall And it will look like a crime scene for people because it's just like that scary You don't see it often and blood is scary

And so maybe it's like a situation of memory just kind of enhances like this traumatic moment And you're like no, there was blood everywhere So I'm not necessarily sure but they all kept saying there was so much blood Even the neighbors of Elizabeth, they still remember that it was just a funny and mysterious death. That's what they call it. Just strange. People said that she maybe had a stroke at the top of the stairs and fell down, but it's just weird. So there was the speculation of maybe he was having an affair with Elizabeth. Like that makes sense. Like he is known to have affairs. He had multiple affairs with Kathleen, with his first wife.

Like, what's not to say that he wasn't having an affair with Elizabeth? He does have this pattern. Maybe he killed her for that. Maybe he, maybe she threatened to tell Patricia like any of these things, but there's no proof of it. Yeah. Now, Elizabeth did write in her will

to give $35,000 to the Peterson's if she dies. That was her assets, and then custody of the two daughters would000 to the Peterson's if she dies, that was her assets, and then custody of the two daughters would go to the Peterson. So she wrote this will after her husband George had died. So she's like, you just never know what life throws at you. Now I have these kids. I need to make sure that they're covered. So she thought the Peterson's would be a great fit.

So they adopt the two girls, and her body gets brought to Texas near Houston because again they're an American family and she was buried with her husband George. Now when the press get news of this they're like oh yeah he's the fucking stairway killer for sure. I mean it is a weird coincidence right and so the police say listen they even look alike. Now if you see pictures of them they do look alike but I don't really know if that matters. Maybe they're trying to insinuate that this was in a fair, like maybe this is his aesthetic type. Maybe this is the physical appearance that he's into is women who look like this.

They were both found at the bottom of the stairs. The last people to see them were both Michael Peterson. There were significant blood at the scene, and they believed that maybe there were significant injuries There's no way to say that this is just like a coincidence or not, right? So here's a problem that they face there's no pictures of the fall because it was ruled an accident There's really not enough like autopsy stuff either like it wasn't thorough It was just kind of like accident of all by and so they're like okay We want to assume Elizabeth's body. Oh my god

So they're like we need to do an ex-mation and they get permission from Elizabeth's sister. This is where Michael gets mad. He's like, what about the girls? Like, why would it go to the sisters and not to the daughters of Elizabeth? Because that is who should get the say. So the police, you know, the girls at first,

they were so obsessed. So Margaret and Martha, they told the docuseries because that's where they did a lot of their interviews. They were like, listen, like, this is like my worst nightmare. Why would I want that? Like, I want her to be resting. This is horrendous. Like, this is so traumatic.

Like, this is what are they doing? But then finally, they came around and they decided to sign the authorization papers because they thought it would help Michael. They were like, if it helps dad, we'll do anything because we think that the autopsy will show that this was Some sort of stroke this was some sort of fall like it wasn't him So this huge argument ensues because the defense, you know David Rudolph this amazing defense attorney is telling them Why don't you just do it in Texas like she's in Houston, Texas?

There are world-class pathologists and medical examiners in the state of Texas, and they're all neutral to the case. Why don't you just do an in Texas and then have the results sent over? But they decided, the DA's office decided, that they would drive Elizabeth's body 1200 miles back to North Carolina to have Deborah Raddish, the same person who did Kathleen's autopsy, do an autopsy on Elizabeth. So this is where a lot of people are upset. People who even think that Michael is guilty, think that it's a little weird. Like why didn't you just have a neutral person do it?

You know, someone who doesn't benefit from this, because you know, when you think about the medical examiner, if the DA is pressing charges, it might benefit them because they work for the DA technically to rule it, whatever the DA wants them to rule it. Versus someone in Texas who has absolutely no connection to it, they're not gonna think about what the DA in fucking North Carolina wants, they're just gonna be like, no, this is what the autopsy show, right? And so she too gets brought in and Elizabeth

also had seven deep lacerations in the back of her scalp. The same pattern? The same pattern? The same. Like the injuries were shockingly similar. Oh, then that is so. Okay, how do you explain that? So with that.

That's not even like getting thunder, stripe twice. This is weird, right? So the defenses are doing that the autopsy, they're being dramatic. So with Kathleen's autopsy, we could see, like you can look at pictures of her actual head, right? And the lacerations, whereas with Elizabeth's, you can't see that because this has been 18 years

that she's, you know, and this is an exclamation, it's really different. And so they just have like the diagrams of where they're labeling it. So the defense is saying like, oh, like they're just making it look closer than where it is. Like the picture at all so similar. Yeah, to make it look so similar,

I mean, it's still weird. But yeah, I agree. Regardless of even if she had seven on the other side, like it's still weird, it's my opinion. Yeah, like elaceration on the head is just very specific and then the stall the fall from the staircase. Yeah We're full blown detectives So they assume her body and they decide the cause of death is homicidal injuries from repeated blunt force trauma to the head Now David Rudolph he actually gets super pissed because he claims that he's read through tons of autopsies

and never once did he read about blunt forced trauma being described as, and I quote, the inflicted trauma is clearly from a homicidal assault. End quote. He's saying like, that's really weird. Like, nobody writes shit like that. Like, suddenly you're gonna pull out

like these crazy, crazy definitive, like this is homicidal assault clearly like he's just saying like I've never read that in an autopsy report like you're doing too much like you're doing the most on this one right and so um yeah the results were released to the press before the trial so it became an absolute chaotic mess so the police are saying listen even if this was an accident let's say let's say Elizabeth's death was an accident. They're saying he saw the crime scene. He could have very well molded any future crimes because he knows what it might look like.

He got away with it in Germany. Why wouldn't he try to replicate that exact formula in the States? You know, like, have her fall, say it's a fall from the steps, ooh, there's so much blood like maybe it's this Maybe it's that so just they just think it's weird. What about murder weapons? They didn't find anything in Germany. Well the Germany investigation was not an investigation Oh, we'll get to that the murder weapon and so they they were thinking about the motive other than the affair Maybe it's financial gain 35,000 dollars. He would get but at the same time He spent a lot more on the two girls raising them, right? So it just kind of gets really tricky. And now I think it gets incredibly tricky for Martha and Margaret because he's accused of killing their birth mom and their stepmom that raised them.

And like this is their only parental figure left, is their dad, the person being accused of doing all of these things. So the defense argues other than the fact that there are two women, 18 years apart that died 6, 18 years apart, that died 6,000 miles apart, and the autopsy's are done by the same person and not different medical examiners, independent autopsy's, they should have used someone neutral to this case, like it's just making them look bad. Now what is against the DA's office? What are they not telling us? The cops don't like Michael. Way before they even went to the house on December 9th. So he wrote for the local newspaper, and he was always outspoken about how

there is a divide between the poor and the rich in Durham. And he said that there's really insane issues with corruption. Why do the Durham police department only solve 5% of crimes? But they collect 33% of tickets. Why? Why do they have all of these issues? They said that the district attorney's office, they constantly go after bingo players and underage voters. What about drug track if they can? What about all these real crimes? Why are you arresting bingo players? What's bingo player? Like the game bingo, I guess it's like considered

gambling. If you've got like an organized situation going on. Oh really? So he's like, what are you doing? Like, why are you going after underage voters and bingo players? Like, you've got drug traffickers in Durham and you're just chill. It was so bad to the point where the chief of police even emailed Michael saying, you've damaged the moral, the morale of the police department. Like you've made us all feel really shitty. Like, you need to stop that. Aw. He's like, you're making us sad. That's so really.

Yeah, like he's just saying, like, you don't know shit about what we're doing. Like, we're going through some shit, like, guys, right? And so they believe the defense is saying that they looked at this case and they decided it was murder and now they're working back And they're just trying to find anything that fits their theory and anything that doesn't fit they just chuck it out the window Damn this kid is getting complicated. I know. So it's like just when you're like, oh that motherfucker's guilty You're like, oh, I don't know

But you know like a lot of these I think you can sort it out. Yeah, you know some of them It's distracting, but at the end of the day you just have to look at the evidence, right? Yeah Sometimes I just need to talk to someone and there is nothing wrong with that I am not in the middle of a crisis. I'm not looking for a crisis line I'm not trying to read a self-help book But I just want some professional counseling done securely online so that I can stay in my PJs on my couch, eat some goldfish, and talk to someone about my feelings. And this is where BetterHelp has been amazing. I mean, seriously, if there is something that's interfering with your goals or your happiness or just maybe you're feeling a little tense these days,

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and Rotten Manga listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash rotten. That's better. H-E-L-P.com slash rotten. So then here are the questions left over, right? So you've got the whole setup. Like we kind of know about what's going on in their lives. I'm sure we don't have the full extent we never really do, but we have a little bit more than what we originally did. And then we have the DA's office, their theories of, okay, this was like rage, she found out about the fair, she wants to leave him, she's the breadwinner, all of these things. And then you've got the defense saying this is a pure accident, they're in love. They're soulmates. They love each other now

We still have some questions even though we've got these two theories the first question the most important is Can you hear someone fall down the stairs when you're at the pool like that's just a make sense Can you imagine someone is bleeding out for like 90 minutes to two hours is what the medical examiner estimated and you don't hear a single thing Like they're probably shouting. They're screaming. They're stomping, and so in the docuseries, they did try. They played a recording of someone screaming, help, someone helped me, and the pool, they have a fountain. So, I mean, it didn't seem like they could hear anything,

so that part kinda made sense to me. Now, the murder weapon, this is the most important question, what was the trauma administered by? Because it's such a specific Laceration like he she has these lacerations, but no brain bleed like no brain bruising It just doesn't make any sense So the weapon they think has to be malleable and not heavy and thick So usual blunt force trauma like murder weapons would be heavy and thick like you'd get like a bat a metal bat like a rod

But they're thinking it's got to be something a little bit more malleable so that it doesn't actually cause these internal brain injuries. So they're like thinking about all of these things. And that's when Kathleen's sister is like holy shit. I know exactly what you're looking for. And I actually gave it to her as a gift like years ago, a blow poke. Is that for the fireplace?

Yes. So it's like this hollow stick and you blow through it so that you can fan the flames. And then at the end of it, it's like this hollow stick and you blow through it so that you can fan the flames. And then at the end of it, it's got this little claw, like it kind of hinges so you can kind of like move the logs around a little bit. But it's hollow and it's malleable so that if you were to hit it, maybe if you even use the claw side, that could explain all of the lacerations because it looks like someone clawed at her head, really it does. And so they're like, this is probably the murder weapon, and we can't find it in the house.

They did multiple searches of the house. Once Candace told them about them, about the blow poke, right? They even used metal detectors, because like I said, this is like a 3.5 acre lot that they live on. They had dogs searching in the back for a blow poke. They searched everywhere. They could not find that blow poke. Now tell me why.

Tell me why it mysteriously appears right before closing statements. Oh yeah. So this blowpoke is nowhere. This blowpoke is nowhere. They even searched their cars. They searched everywhere. And they're like, this blowpoke is gone. How did it get rid of this blowpoke?

And so the police theory is that, you know how one of the sons came when the police were coming? Yes. Maybe he had just left to get rid of the blowpoke. Maybe he knew, and the dad was like, listen, go fuck and get rid of this, because you know, I'm gonna go to jail. And so he was like, okay, dad, thanks.

And then like left. And like, got rid of the blowpoke. That's obviously a legit. Don't you say reappear. Yeah, later. And so, you know, that was kind of like the initial theory that the police had, that the sun got rid of the blowpoke, and that's why it's not there.

And he came around the same time as the EMTs, and he's just pretending that he just got home. Maybe that explains the single drop of blood. Remember at the front porch, they said that there was that single drop of blood. Maybe the blowpoke had one drop of blood that just dripped down, because that's kind of like the angle that these blood experts were saying is that it didn't look like it was dragged, it didn't look, it just looked like, you know, when water is like at the bottom of the straw and then it drops, it's like that perfect, little drop, it kind of looked like that. So maybe he was taking that blow poke outside. So they

start questioning all of that and they're just looking for this blow poke. Then we have the next question, okay? If maybe that's the murder weapon, was there too much blood for a flaw? So then that's where all of the blood splatter evidence just comes into play, which I mean, I feel like I really was such an advocate for all of these cool things, because I was like, you know, science is really so advanced, and I was like, yeah, yes, science. And then like the more that I'm reading about these cases, the more I'm like, this is not science, this is not. Because, well, I think that when it's done correctly, it's, you know, it's used in court in really, really good situations. But in situations like this, it's really weird. So the way that this person did it, and his name is Dwayne Deever, he was like the blood splatter expert on this

entire case, okay? And it's actually the reason that he was granted a new trial. So he would do these little experimentation where he would try to recreate the scene. He's like trying to guess where Kathleen was when she allegedly fell or got hit and from there he's trying to recreate it. Now I read somewhere that it's Blood Splatter analysis is really, really bad because even if you were to remove one single object from the crime scene, it completely changes the analysis of the blood splatter. So if there was like a chair in front of the wall, and then suddenly the chair is not there,

the new blood experts that come in are like, oh, it was totally this, right? Because they didn't know that something was there. Or like some people just like pump blood faster or slower, you know, than other people. Sometimes it's the kind of fabric that you're wearing or maybe adrenaline pumping. Like all of these things are crazy variables that you can't necessarily perfect down to a pinpoint. And so especially with this case, they worked on a lot of blood splatter recreations and they were working with the end product first.

They just did not care how they got there. They were like, what we need to do is just get here. We don't care what it takes. We just need to get here. So they would repeatedly do these little experiments until they got the blood splatter the way that they wanted it to. Which is? Which is that she was beat. That's the only way. That's what they say. Well, they went in with that. She's been beat. So we're going to recreate that. Okay. And so the next question is how much of his private life factors into this? Now we do have to recreate that. OK. And so the next question is, how much of his private life factors into this?

Now, we do have to remember that he is bisexual. And this is the south. So it's a little bit weird. It's like if he were trying to get services from females, from women, would this be different? Would they use this in court? Like, there was just a lot of nuance involved, where I don't know if anyone had an answer.

I think that it should be used in court, because he was having an affairs during his marriage with Kathleen. I don't think necessarily the jury had to know that he was bisexual. And I say this because this was 2001 in the South. I just don't necessarily think that every juror would be, even if they claim that they're open-minded,

I just feel like it might do something with the jury. But are you allowed to withhold any information though? Yeah. So it's like this weird, I see. Do you know what I mean? It's like, yes, okay. I think it's important to note that he was seeking sex from other people, but do they really have to know

what gender these people were? Because what if that affects something? What if that makes him less relatable to certain jurors? So I just thought that was a little weird. Obviously, we want to live in a perfect world where it wouldn't matter, regardless of who you were seeking sex from. Now the next question some people had was that does Vietnam have anything to do with this? He is a Vietnam War veteran.

Does he have issues? Is something wrong? Does he have any PTSD? Does he have any, because sometimes PTSD can cause anger, aggression, and all of these things. Was it that? Was it she found out, threatened to leave him, and he snapped type of situation? But I couldn't find any diagnosis of if he did have PTSD or anything.

So, a lot of people did bring it up though. They were just saying, well, he is a Vietnam War veteran, so we should maybe keep that in mind. Because when you look at him, you're like, there's no way he could beat someone. Because he kind of looks old, like a Gramps. And you're just like, huh, but then at the same time, he did go to war. Now, another very interesting question, which it's crazy that people think of the the questions like this is that the weather wasn't warm enough to be comfortable outside That's what people kept saying he said that he dozed off for like an hour or two. He was in t-shirts and shorts in December in North Carolina

They said it was probably like 50 degrees They said that it would be incredibly strange a lot of North Carolinians. They were like listen I mean it'd be pretty uncomfortable like I can't imagine being outside in the middle of December at like one in the morning and just shorts and a t-shirt. I don't think he was outside the whole time. It just doesn't make sense. Now, some people do argue that alcohol does raise your temperature, but by how much? Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know. Maybe he runs a little hot, but it's just people have that theory now here comes the owl question What are those feathers in the autopsy these microscopic feathers that people are talking about so this theory

It's reported that it came out in 2009 after all of the original trial had already passed But apparently it had been around for a while So the cops actually knew about this and they thought it was funny. They even put owls on their most wanted list because they were like, he he ha ha. Nobody brought it up in the original trial because they were worried that it would just confuse the shit out of everyone. Like suddenly you're like, okay, so the murderer is an owl. And everyone would be like, okay, what? So here's the theory. So the neighbor of the Peterson's was actually another lawyer and he knew the Peterson's really well.

And he just kept thinking about like something doesn't feel right, like something doesn't sit right, like I just don't, none of this makes sense. So he's going through the autopsy report and he sees the diagram and he sees all of the wounds on our face and they all said 0.25 inches in diameter. And he's thinking to himself, you know, it seems impossible. Like you're saying the same lacerations with these same exact measurements, I mean, he thinks that even the best surgeons

can't do this with this amount of accuracy. And now you're saying like in this rage-filled moment, you're like trying to kill someone, and you're like, oh, gotta be the same in diameter. Like a justemic sense tan. And so he started reading more. And that's when he read that in her left hand, there were of her own hair but also a feather that was bloody so then they look at the feather and they realized it's kind of like wrapped around her own hair with fresh droplets of blood

and so he's thinking okay maybe this was done by owls so they are some of the only species in the world he claims i mean i don't really know a lot about owls. Do they still have the feather? Yes. Why couldn't they? So like what I read because I was wondering the same thing. What I read was that sometimes you could have pillows that have similar for you could be outside and like have touched something like, you know, it's not nice. Yeah.

And so he's saying that owls are some of the only species in the world with microscopic feathers on their claws. And if you look at the way that an owl grips, first of all, they grip at about 280 pounds on those needle point talons. So they've got a lot of strength. You might think like there's no way an owl can kill you or create those lacerations, but they have strength. So I mean, the way that her lacerations look,

they do look kind of like pitchfork shaped, which could explain maybe it does seem like it was made from an owl. So the theory is that she was walking into the house after Michael staying out, he's just hanging out at the pool, and this owl attacks her. And she's like freaking out. The owl's trying to sit on her head, mess with her head, she starts bleeding, she runs into the house to get shelter, and she's trying to clean herself up, maybe she's trying to sit on her head, mess with her head, she starts bleeding, she runs into the house to get shelter, and she's trying to clean herself up,

maybe she's trying to get something done, there's blood everywhere dripping down her hair, maybe she's trying to get to a phone, and she's trying to run up the stairs, and she slips in her own blood and hits her head again. And then she bleeds to death. Now, Owl attacks in North Carolina are not like the rarest thing, but to this degree

really unusual. But a lot of people did say like, yeah, I saw an owl and it looked like it wanted to attack me. So I don't know. So the neighbor, the neighbor attorney attacks the DA and or contacts the DA and is they're just like, no, bye. DA say no. It's like, that's just, yeah, they're just like you're dumb. Now, I think this is where it gets weird. I feel like the people who really believe he's innocent, really, like this theory, I think is so crazy, but also makes so much sense that I can see why. You're like, this is like one of those things that only happens like one in a million years.

Like a coincidence that's so crazy, so unbelievable. Yeah. But it truly happened and there's no way anyone's gonna freaking believe you. Like a coincidence that's so crazy, so unbelievable. But it truly happened and there's no way anyone's gonna freaking believe you. Like no way. So that's kind of the whole thing. Now the next question is why was there a shoe print on the back of her sweatpants? Like that doesn't make any sense at all. Why was that shoe print there? Like he has no explanation for it. There's no way he could even slip and fall on that slippery blood and then accidentally just like step on the back of her leg when she's laying on her back. Yeah.

So people thought was weird. Now the next question that they have is just the whole bleeding out thing like really for like 90 minutes to two hours you were just outside in the cold. I mean if you insist is that some people think that's why he called 911 twice to give them a time of death. To be like she's breathing please, please come. Call back to minutes later. She's no longer breathing. So the time of death would be at this point, instead of earlier, which would give him time to clean, and you know, people would be a lot

more suspicious if she died two hours earlier, and then he called. Okay, I can see that too. So, yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying. So then the trial starts. Now Michael, he does have money because he did pay over, I wanna say like $800,000 for this defense. They hired some of the best like blood, splatter experts, they did, what do you call them? Those case studies,

they brought in a bunch of strangers, sat them in a room and they were like, here's the evidence, what do you think of Michael? So they did all of these, those cost like $30,000 they said. For each round just to get their opinion on like, okay, like normal people, what will the jury think about this or this testimony? Like they did so much, they even flew to Germany to go see the house that Elizabeth passed away and to get pictures, to get the exact measurements

of the stairs to get all of the reports to talk to Patricia. Like, they went everywhere, they did everything. Like, it's insane. So now we have just like the game. Like, it just straight up feels like a game, especially if you watch the Netflix Tokyo series, they make it feel like a game, which I think is maybe what the producer wanted because it doesn't really feel like

they never talk about Kathleen at all in that Tokyo series. Game as to win this case. Yeah, it just feels like a justice, like what, how does the court system work type of game? It doesn't feel at all like, okay, like what's the truth? And I think that's what they were doing. I don't think that they were trying to expose the truth.

I do think that they were totally biased to Michael, but I don't think they even set off with the intention of what's the truth. I believe what the director had mentioned was like, just to show like the process or something of that sort. And it does show the process really well. So they're kind of going through it, and they think that their main struggles,

the defense, is that the autopsy photos, like without any testimony, it looks like someone was beaten on the head. Like anyone is gonna feel that way. And then another thing is that Katelyn Kathleen's daughter is now on the prosecution side. So like, that's a big deal. So they bring in a defense expert, which is Henry Lee, and he is a huge blood spatter analysis expert in the field who actually now is in a lot of controversy. But prior to this, he was highly regarded in the field. Yeah, in 2019, there was this huge piece

done on him because apparently he claimed that he had tested something for blood And he had never even tested it at all and he was like, oh, I like tested positive or negative But like record show that he never fucking got it tested to begin with so they're like, oh, so you're just making stuff up But he testified in a lot of celebrity cases such as the OJ Simpson case Yeah, so he I mean people know Now, here's the interesting thing. The house that she passed away in, Michael lived there for years, waiting for the trial, and they kept the staircase bloody.

They didn't clean it up. Some people think that this point's time being guilty because how do you live like that? Some people, yeah, some people say it's because, you know, the defense would go in on multiple occasions to re-study the blood spotter. I don't think I feel like if anything improves that he's not as guilty because if you're guilty I feel like he would want to clean it up, no? To hide any evidence. Or I guess maybe guilt would

be a stronger feeling. Yeah, if you are guilty maybe you'd clean it up because you can't sleep at night because you're like, I did that. Yeah, why would you want to keep that? Yeah. Preserve that. Forward reasons. I don't get it. That makes sense. And so, Henry Lee, he testified in court and he was saying that the blood splatter is not, so they're saying all of these like specks of blood, like these dots of blood on the wall is because someone is beating with this blow poke, right? So as they're bleeding, the blood is on the blow poke, they put it up in the air and the blood splatters onto the walls, then they thrash it down and blood splatters again and they keep repeatedly doing this to cause the seven last evations. Now Henry Lee is

testifying that, no, it's because she coughed. so she's laying there and she's she's got blood in her mouth and she Cuffs so he put ketchup and water and chugged it they had this whiteboard that you know David was holding up at the trial And he coughs on to it and it does create kind of like a blood splatter pattern So it's like I mean this is really unreliable. It looks like that too. So, I mean, it's kind of weird. So in this situation, the only thing that doesn't make sense a lot is that there was no blood in her lungs, and there was a lot of blood on the walls. So you'd have to believe that it's because there was blood

dripping down her face, she inhaled it into her mouth, or maybe her tongue was bleeding, something of that sort, and she was coughing all of that onto her walls. But her lungs were not bleeding. So there wouldn't be this crazy amount of blood pumping out from inside of her. They were also claiming that the lacerations, they're shocking, but it's kind of like when you slam a watermelon onto the ground, you have, you know, one or two impact points and

then there will be like these, like the pitch pitchfork spikes the tears in other places. So that's what they were claiming. So then the main thing that the defense had also was that there was a lot of differences in some of the crime scene photos. Like some of the times they'd be like look at this speck of blood on the kitchen counter and the defense would be like well why in this picture of the same kitchen counter is there no blood? And they'd say that is a glitch and they literally asked well what about the other photos and they said well I'm

not sure. So kind of dumb yeah and so there was another piece of evidence of the police were adamant that he was cleaning up the crime scene like that's why there's no striking gun like there's no crazy like oh this is exactly why because he was cleaning up the crime scene. So okay so all of all of those I might take it with a grain of salt because, you know, policing, oh, he was acting, doing, or like, I don't know. We don't know for sure. I don't know how reliable your words is. Especially because they would show a picture and would say, look, this blood looked like

it's been wiped off. And then there was another picture where it didn't look wiped off at all of the same exact spot of the same exact little blood spots. So they're saying either the police wiped it off and then took another picture, or is it a photo glitch, or what? Because Mike wasn't allowed access to that crime scene after you guys started taking pictures. Yeah. So who did that? So they were just like, okay. So it just got really, really, really crazy, okay? Now, they do go after the blood splatter analysis, and analyst, his name is Duane.

Duane is going to become important. So Duane's on the stand, and the prosecutor is like, listen, Duane, tell us what's up, and he was like, listen, she was muddied essentially. Like, that's what he's saying. He was like, there's no way that this would have happened in any other way. The main thing that we have is that he's got blood splatter, is different from just blood,

inside his shorts, on the inside, not the outside. And it doesn't look like it was soaked, you know? It's a speck of blood splatter. So that indicates to us that he was standing on top of her, beating her, and that's the only way the blood would travel and land on the inseam of his pants that he was wearing. There was blood splatter on his shoes, which means he must have been near her because you don't get splatter if you just walk to a crime scene and there's blood everywhere. Splatter is different than just having blood on your shoes, right?

So that means he must be there at the time he must have been beating her. And so the way that he was going to prove prove this and he showed videos of doing this in court was that he would soak a sponge in blood. And he put it on a staircase, so I was very similar to theirs. And he started beating that sponge, pretending that was Kathleen's head, and he was standing above it,

and he hit it twice, he looks down at his pants, he walks out with his legs spread and people check and they're sure enough was blood splatter inside of his shorts. Now people do really, really hate this because when you see that video, you actually see him kind of like spread his pants open to like make sure he gets in there real good and then he'll like hit the sponge and then like look down and then like hit it again and then like look down and then he's like I think I got it, you know. And so it really just doesn't really seem scientific

at all in any sort of way. Now, the defense comes after him hard, and they're like, what about a shirt? Did your test his shirt for blood splatter? And they said that no, they didn't test it because the shirt was dark blue, so they couldn't visually see the splatter. And so the defense is like, you know,

there's other ways to test it, you know, with like lights and different things, like there's definitely ways to test it, even if the shirt is dark blue. And they're like, well, we just like didn't test it. And they're like, are you sure? That's shady. Are you sure? And then they realized that they tested it.

So he pretty much was like, okay, like, yeah, we tested it. And there was no blood splatter on his shirt. Oh my god, that is so shady. So they said, why don't we know this? Because anything that Dwayne found out about the blood splatter had to be entered as evidence and the prosecution had to share it with the defense. You can't just enter an evidence

that you think gives you a guilty plea, a verdict, because that doesn't make any sense, that's corrupt. And so he's like. Both sides are pretty good at this both sides are both nays today yeah they're just taking bits and parts of evidence and just play with that it has nothing to do with justice at this point it just has to do with who gets caught up in a stupid lie like it's just pretty nasty it's all PR is what it feels like. Like it feels like the jury is like the world and it's just a PR game of which company is more corrupt and it has nothing to do with justice

is what it feels like. Like even the fact that the DA is like, oh, I want the family on my side for optics, you know? It's like that's really gross. First of all, but like I get it. But you have to remember, I think sometimes I do forget this, is that DAs and prosecutors, they need to win cases to get promoted.

And a lot of them care way more about their jobs and their finances than they do justice, not all, but a lot. Yeah. And you never know which one you're gonna get. And so he's just like, well, then you hid this. And they're like, no, I gave it to the prosecution. The prosecution's like, I've never saw this. And so he's like, what the fork?

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this one video where Dwayne Dweever, Dwayne Dweever, he gets up onto a ladder, like just a standard ladder and there's like a white backdrop and he just like drops Like I guess like a mannequin with like blood and then sees the splatter But no one even suggested that Kathleen was dropped on her head from the top of a ladder So like what is that have anything to do with the case, but he was like blood splatter So he's just not that good anything to do with the case, but he was like blood splatter. So he's just not that good. And so he testified that he's done like over 200 of these cases. He's worked on so many falls.

He's worked, he's advised on close to 500 cases all of this. So there was a lot of emphasis on his testimony. The jury thought that this guy was like, you know, the best blood splatter analysis out there. Like, he's got it. Comes into question later. So a lot of people that were interviewed after this trial happened, and they are actually considered blood splatter,

you know, experts in their field, like they're highly regarded in their field. They said that the way that he does it is complete junk science. Like, they don't even know what he's doing. They're like, are we even learning from the same source material? Because that doesn't even make sense.

Like, nobody does it like that. sense like nobody does it like that? Truly, nobody does it like that Like you don't start with an end result and then just try a hundred times and then hope that you get one of those takes to work on camera And you're like done guilty like what are you saying? So then Debra she gets up on the stand She's the medical examiner that did both the autopsies for Kathleen and Elizabeth and the defense I mean they really did to get their money's worth. So they printed out over 200 blunt force trauma deaths in the state of North Carolina in the last few years,

every single autopsie report, and they brought up binders full of it. And dropped it out in front of the jury and said in all 250 cases, either have one or the other of like a brain trauma or brain fracture in blunt forced trauma homicides. But this case has none. So every single one from the past does have? Yes. Has either one, they have brain trauma or you know fractures

in their skull? When they are murdered? Yeah. Or they have both in terms of having, you know, blunt force trauma homicides but this one has neither they just have lacerations so do you have anything to say about that and she's like not really and so the jury was like oops yeah it's i mean these are all just like moments in the trial where it's like it just keeps swinging and you kind of feel gross because it is interesting But it's also not really justice. It's really just straight up like ha ha gotcha like Yeah, so the prosecution they go hard with that blowpoke They're opening statement they brought out a blowpoke and they're like we think that this is the murder weapon That just magically disappeared

From her house like she doesn't have a blow poke anymore. Where that blow poke go? Why would you just throw away an perfectly good blow poke? Kathleen's sister testifies and said that, you know, she originally thought that Mike was having a truly respectful relationship with her sister, but then she changed her mind because she had no idea who Mike Peterson is.

Like, all of these, you know, things about his sexuality, his affairs, and you know, where's the blow poke? The prosecution also brought in the male escort to testify. He was a former soldier and he posted his information on an escort website in 2001. Now August of 2001, so she passed away in December. In August, they had plans to hook up in September. And there was tons of emails with like, noots. So he goes up there and he testifies.

And it's interesting. So he would say that like most of his clients are married. He said that most of them are bisexual men and their wives sometimes knew about it. It wasn't unusual for the wife to know that they're bisexual. This is what's interesting. Michael Peterson wrote in his email

when he's meeting up with this former soldier and said, I'm married, very happily married with a dynamite wife, and he's not looking for a relationship just sex because his wife fulfills like all of that. So it's kind of weird. So the jury reads that, but they also read all of the really intense emails that are talking about like how they're going to do it. So I mean, I don't know if this really hurt or helped him.

It's just interesting. I guess now they didn't end up sleeping together. Not because Michael finally came to the conclusion, like, hey, I should stop sleeping with other people because I'm married, happily married. But it's because the guy was like, hey, I actually just want to bail. Like, they had plans to meet.

And he was like, I don't really want to do this. Like, I'm kind of busy. Like, he just said that he was tired. And so they didn't actually do it. So, you know, I don't know if that helps or hurts so then a couple weeks before the trial is over Clayton the eldest son he was looking around in the garage and he said that there was a section of the garage where they keep all of their tools and he had walked over there and he was like all my

freaking goodness is that the blowpoke just sitting there? So he claims to call his dad. That sounds really dumb, because he's saying that a corner that wear all the tools lays. Well, wouldn't that be the place you two look for it? Yeah. And so obviously, there's really big concerns about this, you know, because the police specifically searched a long time for this blow poke.

And I'm sure they searched in the garage, because a lot of people hide some weird stuff in the garage It's a murder weapon Yeah, the only thing that people wants to find and so you know That's weird first of all like your son finds it like at one point one of the other sons was like Possibly considered a suspect just because of how weird everything was going down So there's actually a big group of people who still think that one of the sensors is involved. Either they knew about it or they're the one that did it and Mike is covering for them. They didn't necessarily have what seems like the best relationship with Kathleen as they made it out to be. It's what people speculate, but I

couldn't find any like solid hard evidence that they were, you know, fighting or something was going on, but it does seem a little tense for some reason. And so, you know, they're like betting on his life. You know, the defense attorney comes and he says, you better hope that there's no hair or blood on this because we're going to turn it in. And if they find anything on this, like you're done. So they look at it and they took these high definition studio quality pictures because there was cow webs around the blowpoke. So it looks like it had been sitting in the garage for some time.

Okay. You know, but I mean, it's just also weird. So they turn it in as evidence and the blow poke is super dirty. It doesn't look like it had been cleaned. It doesn't look like it had been wiped off of any blood. There was bugs on there. There were cow webs on there. But you know, the little claw part, that part's just gone. What what claw part at the end the claw All the hooks so that you can move the locks. Yes that part was completely just ripped off the blow poke The blow poke itself wasn't bent Like you would imagine it would get bent if you know you were in but still though if you use it a wet weapon Then it must be covered in blood and yeah

maybe we cleaned it and let it get some cowwebs and get dirty again because it was like years later the trial oh really yeah because the trials take so long okay so yeah again it seems like really weird timing to be like okay so like my thing is I think it's really strange to just be like my Son found this blowpoke that you guys were looking for like it just makes everyone look shady, but at the same time Yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't know everything so confusing Hi, we are the certified idiots who don't know anything We're just like, you know what but at the same time

And so yeah, they turned in the blue poke. And again, like I said, there's no dance. There was also no evidence of blood they tested it. But again, that claw part is just gone. I mean, various suspicious. So the prosecutors, they kind of put emphasis on their, they're saying it's suspicious that it suddenly reappeared two days before the defense rests their case. Like that's weird, don't you guys think?

They also said that if you believe that they found this blow poke and she accidentally fell, then you just gotta believe that Dwayne Deaver is just a liar. They said this to the jury. If you believe the defense, then you believe Dwayne Deaver, our blood splatter analysis, dude, is just a liar. This is gonna come upon them. And they also said they are tried and true because they work for us. He has no reason to lie to you today.

That's what they said about Duane, mother fork and doever, deep. It's a very manipulative way of saying things. If you believe that dude, and that means you also, you're means you also, yeah, it's like zero or a hundred. It's like, but nothing really works like that. But also, I don't believe anyone who testifies in any court system has nothing to gain from the way that they're testifying. Even like, you know, obviously you've got the jail house informants. Totally. They've got a reason. But like, Dwayne Diver, he's also getting paid like he works for the SBI who works very close in contact with the D- I mean it's just what do you mean he has no motive?

and she also said the um prosecutor said there is no way that she was at work or sleeping knowing her husband was planning to do these things with men. Do you really believe that? this is not how soulmates conduct themselves. So her thing was just trying to bring down the fact that he kept saying that they were in love. She knew that he was bisexual, all of these things. And they ended it with, Kathleen is talking to us through the blood on the walls. She's died of murder and we ask you to return to that verdict. That's very emotional. I know. And so the jury was even taken to the house to see the stairs to see the pool and the whole setup like I mean this story really ran through it now

There was a lot writing on this very big because you're talking about his life So he's facing life in prison and also he had a book deal in the works So he was taking lots of notes during the entire trial and he had a book deal with Harper Collins that if he was found not guilty, they would publish his book. If he was found guilty, they would immediately cut ties. And that's, you know, time for the verdict. After multiple days, they found him guilty of first degree murder, sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. So he goes to prison for about eight years and they keep filing appeals. Eight. Eight.

Just filing more appeals, more appeals, more appeals. And then they hear something about Duane Deaver. So there's a guy by the name of Greg Taylor in North Carolina. And he had spent about 17 years in prison. He was serving a life sentence for murder. And he was recently exonerated because the main testimony was by Duane Deaver, the freaking blood splatter dude, right? So he admitted to misrepresenting blood results in the case and there had to be this giant internal Investigation at the SPI where Dwayne works and it ruined you know Greg's entire life He was married. He had this nine-year-old daughter

He went to jail for 17 years and now you're just saying oopsie. I lied. He he is Is he gonna go to jail for that because that that's, you're a fucking sending people to Yeah. People's lives. Okay, so let me explain what happened. So Greg Taylor, he was out with his friend looking for drugs and drinking. Okay, he was not doing good stuff. I'm just gonna put it out there.

He was smoking crack. He gets into his car and he they start driving and he's like, listen, I'm gonna go park in that little grassy area and we're gonna smoke some more and then we're just gonna drive away. So he parks there but his car got stuck in that area and so they're like, okay We got a walk away from the car and like maybe go find like some help to like push this car out And they walk into like this little coldest sack area and he thought it was like a rolled up carpet And he's like, what's what's that? Does that have rolled up carpet and it was actually the body of a woman?

So he starts freaking out. He had just smoked crack. I mean, he's got drugs on him. He's driving without a license. Like this dude was doing a lot that day, okay? And so he leaves the body, he leaves the car. Now the next morning, he goes to the car to pick up the car and the police are there. It's a whole crime scene.

And he's like, oh yeah, that's my car. And they're like, why is your car here? And he's like, oh, yesterday I left it. And they're like, what? That doesn't make any sense. So they arrest him and it just started the tide against him just started turning. You're talking about a guy who is smoking crack, doing drugs. He just like leaves his car, doesn't have a license. You know, this is now a crime scene. They found stains on the like bender of his car and they

thought it could be blood. So they bring in Dwayne Deever and he does this little test, like a chemical indication and it didn't say if it was blood. And so he's like, okay, I'm gonna do a more in-depth test. Now when he did the more in-depth test, confirmed that it wasn't blood. But instead of turning that into the DA's office, he completely excluded that from the report. And just did the first test and said, hey, so it looks like it's probably blood. He lied.

Yeah, never talked about the second result. So he had to like, he didn't do the second result. But he didn't know that information that it wasn't blood. And so the prosecutor, they built their case on why was there blood on your car? Let's say you even just drove there, but like if you had nothing to do with the murder, why was there blood on your car? Why was there blood on your car? And it became a major factor in the jury's decision and like you kind of expect that from a prosecutor But you don't really expect that from a lab like you're supposed to be neutral

You're supposed to be for science like what are you doing? And so March 2010 they did this crazy internal investigation 230 cases they had were not all the tests were reported in the final report sent to the DA's office. Dechosen pick on information. Not just during Diver though, a bunch of people at the SBI, but Dwayne Diver was one of the worst. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, but he had the worst. And he testified and said that it's common to withhold negative results at the SBI, the place that he works, he threw his employer under the bus. and it's just like, how?

Hello, my God. If you claim to be a scientist and for science, how do you not report all of your findings? Like you learn that in elementary school science class, what are you talking about? Like you're just trying to get the answer that you want at this point. Like you're not doing anything for science, you're just being a biased little mother-forker. And so 15,000 cases had to go under review, and hundreds of those cases were severely mishandled, and some of the worst mishandlings were done by Dean Dwayne Diver, and one of those was Michael Peterson's case, because they're just like, that doesn't make any sense.

The press titles were called fantastic tales told in blood. He would conduct bizarre experiments to enforce the prosecutor's case. So they have the same judge there and they've got these different prosecutors. And now David Rudolph, the same defense attorney, he's going forward and saying, we need to have a new trial because this doesn't make sense. This was the only person that was a witness to what happened in the stairway. He claims that he's the only one that knew the blood does the talking. Like this was the major testimony of the entire trial.

What makes it even worse is that at Michael Peterson's trial, they asked, right? So how many of these like have you done, you know, me side, like a lot, like I've done over 200, like I've done reports for over 200 cases. Well, like, how many that involve a fall and he's like, oh, a ton. So he seemed like this crazy, credible person. Prior to the Peterson case, he had only worked three cases where he recreated the scenes. Oh, what?

He has never found a precise point of impact in any case before the Peterson case. And then magically, he's like, I know the precise point of impact. Who is this clown? Is he in jail? Cause this is... He also claimed that he went to 15 different fall sites where he analyzed the blood splatter of people who fell. But he's never been. Absolutely insane. None of the places that he's actually been to the crime scene to analyze the blood splatter was their fall involved. So he just completely, completely lied.

Yeah. What, what, what, do you know what happened to him? I'm not sure. I can like, into it. I know, Henry Lee, even though he's under a lot of thing, I don't think he was like arrested or anything. I am speechless. I wonder if they're protected by any law

or they just not, nobody presses charges on them. But they lie on stands. You lie on stands. Yeah. To to the judge David Rudolph brought in people who are experts in Blood splatter analysis people who wrote books that are used as teaching material and they said that on yeah We don't really know what he's doing that doesn't make any sense like but do they have their little What is it speculation or their little research? No, so that's the thing like with blood splatter. It's like time sensitive.

It's time sensitive, but it's also a situation where you can't definitively say anything. It's not like a gun where it's like this was the bullet that shot them, you know? It's kind of like you can't 100% say. You can say, well, in my opinion. So they're not saying you're guilty. No, they're just saying his process is forked up. Like this would never pass. This would never fly.

This is not what our science is about. You know, we don't ever testify like this. We don't ever do experiments like this. Like, what is he doing? You know, they also reviewed footage of him doing videos for other different cases. And it was just bizarre. Bizarre dude. Like he was weird. and he would get so happy

anytime he got the exact pattern that he wanted, just felt really sick. It was a clown. Yeah, and they kept replaying the prosecutors saying, if you believe that, then you just believe Dwayne Deaver is a liar. And David Rudolph was like, fork yeah. And so he received a new trial.

So Michael Peterson is getting a new trial. So he gets released under house arrest and he was waiting, it was gonna happen in like years. So he's just like at home for like two and a half years, waiting for this trial, right? And they had a hearing, he was actually released from house arrest, which a lot of people were upset about. And they started talking about like, okay,

like do we really wanna go through another trial? So he had spent eight years in jail. Now he was in his 60s, he was looking really old, he was not feeling great. And so they're like, do we really want to go through another trial? So he had spent eight years in jail. Now he was in his 60s. He was looking really old. He was not feeling great. And so they're like, do you really want to? Maybe you should try the Alfred plea, which means that you're like accepting punishment, but you're not accepting the guilt necessarily.

Like you're not saying, I'm guilty. Like I did that. I plead guilty, right? And Kathleen's family absolutely refused. They were like, no, like we don't want to do that. So the prosecutors were like, okay, like we can't do this. We're going to have to do a new trial. So they start prepping for this new trial. And then in 2016, new information comes forward. All of the evidence had been contaminated. So the evidence box where they kept all of Kathleen's

clothes and Michael's clothes from that night had been just like ripped open. Kathleen's clothes, they never underwent DNA testing and now they were just like in a box, like a moving box almost, like not bagged up, not logged, like there was 10 issues on top of sweatpants just like thrown into a box. What was that? Police just didn't care. Maybe Dwayne Deaver did some testing. I was like, okay, bye, or the police didn't care.

Like, well, they don't know what happened, but it just was really bad. Like, I wouldn't even pack my clothes to move like that. And they're packing evidence to look like that. They're saying, not only is this not the way you store evidence and now none of this is admissible, but it's kind of like a biohazard because this has blood on it. And you're just like throwing it into a box.

Like, what if someone just like opens it and reaches it without looking like this is, this is not only just not the way to do it. It's not safe. There was also other evidence from other cases in their box. So there was cross contamination of like a different bloody sweatshirt in their box. Oh my god. So they had it in was. Yeah than what? Yeah, so they had a new trial set in 2017, and the prosecutors, they were in for a ride. They were in for a ride, okay? Like, Dwayne Devers' testimony completely gone at this point.

They have no blood splatter analysis or anything. His bisexuality, the judge probably won't let it in court this time. Elizabeth's death probably won't be letting court this time because they had a fight for the first trial to get those to be allowed to be, you know, shown to the jury. And they probably wouldn't be able court this time because they had a fight for the first trial to get those to be allowed to be you know Shown to the jury and they probably wouldn't be able to do that now And so they decide to offer him the Alfred plea which means again

He'll accept punishment for the crime, but he doesn't accept the guilt So he had already served eight years, which would be more time than he would serve for like a typical manslaughter charge So he pledged the offered plea and he was a free man. And he claims that it's like you're playing a game at a crooked table. That's what he said. I mean, I bet all these years of these strategies and how do I come back from this evidence. Yeah. So, I mean, my thing is, I think that he, my personal opinion, right? I do think that it's just weird. Things don't really sit right.

It feels like a one in a million chance, but I just don't think that he's completely innocent. I think maybe there's negligence, maybe there was, like he saw the owl attacker and was like, okay, look, maybe it's just for the best. I'll just stay out here, right? I think something went weird that day, but I do think it's completely overshadowed

by like what the fork the prosecutor's doing. And I think this case makes me feel like the justice system is so wack. And not in the way, like I know it's worse for so many other people. I'm not saying it's wack for this rich white dude, you know? I'm saying it's wack because it's like, even when you have the money, like,

what are they fighting for? They're just fighting to like, catch the other person. Not really for justice, it's weird. So there's multiple theories. The first theory or opinion is that he's guilty. Maybe it's fully him that he did kill her or maybe it's partly him. So maybe the owl had attacked her and he just was like, let me just strangle her because the neck thing is weird, even if the other things are explained by the owl. Maybe it was all the owl, and there's just no explanation for the neck thing, right? But some people think that he's guilty.

Now, the next theory is that he's innocent, and it's corruption, it's really bad police work. Or maybe it's like the world is weird sometimes, like maybe it is the owl, and he's just like the unlucky as person in the world. And this happened to him twice, so he's super unlucky. Maybe he's the world's un-muckiest, un-muckiest person in the world. Like, I don twice so he's super unlucky. Maybe he's the world's unluckiest, unluckiest person in the world. Like I don't know, like some people think he's innocent. Then theory number three is that someone else did it and he covered for them. So a lot of people think that the brothers are really strange. You know, the fact that they were in debt, there's rumors that they didn't get along with

Kathleen and the emails, the two sons of Michael, Michael's biological sons. Some of you think the sons did it. Yes, and then the fact that they were like, one of them just showed up right after, when the police get there, one of them found the blowpoke, like they just think that the sons are really suspicious. If you watch them in the docu series, they do feel a little suspicious,

but I also know, it could just be, cause there's cameras everywhere. Yeah. You know, so then the next series is just like straight up, the owl is a full on murder, they need a attorney up, they need to lawyer the fork up because we're coming for the owls. That's a theory, the owls are guilty, fork the owls. Then you have, it was an actual accident.

This one I don't really believe, because there was so much blood. I don't think a lot of people believe that one. It's just two left field. So where is he now? Michael Peterson, a frame man. He worked on his new novel in 2019. He released the behind the staircase. Yeah, about his own account of life

since his wife's death. And all profits were donated to charity. So then what about the house and everything going on, right? Because houses like this, like what was happening. So before the about the house and everything going on right? Because houses like this like what was happening So before the Peterson's what's interesting is that there was a movie the handmade stale the Margaret at wood book Yeah, you know, there's a there's a show now the handmade in stale I think but the handmade stale was a 1990 movie was seen like filmed there There was actually a scene filmed on the back staircase

So that happened before Kathleen's death and then afterwards they sold it multiple times and then finally it was sold to a filmed on the back staircase. So that happened before Kathleen's death, and then afterwards, they sold it multiple times. And then finally, it was sold to a guy by the name of Beyond Ferry, I don't know how to say his name. He's a self-described, metaphysician, music and film producer, publisher, and he had this psychic call-in show at the time in New York City Capel TV, so that you could call in and talk to a psychic.

Now, he bought it for $1.3 million in 2008, and this psychic had no knowledge of the house's past before the purchase, so. I don't know, I wouldn't necessarily say that you could call him for psychic stuff, because how do you not know, bro? Also on Google, you don't Google stuff before you forget. You don't zillow anything, I don't know.

And so Dr. Phil actually had an interview with Michael Peterson, like I wanna say a year or two ago. And he said that a lot of the, like the mannerisms in his docu-series looked like he was lying. He called it like behaviors of people who are lying. Who say that, Dr. Phil? Yeah, but also he's like really not that credible,

in my opinion, so I don't know. Is he a real doctor? I may guess he is, right? Yeah, what kind of doctor though? Exactly. He's like I'm a doctor in Art history. I have my PhD in art history, but I made this talk show So so he interviewed yeah, and just said that it was yeah There's also a very interesting podcast that Russell what's his name the one that was married to Katy Perry Russell brand side his name the rock, dude? He interviewed David Rudolph and they went into depth about like how lawyers manipulate juries. It's like

all a game and stuff. So that's very fascinating too. But this one was a wild one. I know that this one got really confusing because at a certain point I stopped believing evidence. Like at a certain point, I was like, wait, like at what point is this fact and at one point is this an opinion or is this, is this some manipulation that's being done? Because I don't even know what's at the crime scene anymore. Like it's gotten to a point where I can't even trust the facts of the case. Like that's how bad this one was. So let me know your thoughts and please don't hate me if I believe something different

from you because I'm a certified idiot and what the fork do I know. Bye.