Rotten Mango - #64: The “666” Death (The Man Who Wrote Letters To Serial Killers)

Episode Date: May 16, 2021

Dear Mr. John Wayne Gacy…  That’s how it all started… One letter to the “Clown Killer” who was responsible for 33 murders of young boys - and Jason was hooked.  For months he developed relationships and even visited with John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Richard Ramirez, and Charles Manson. He wanted to get inside their heads - but what happens if they get inside his first? Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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But it being butterboom. It's a mini-sode. The topic of today's mini-sode is play stupid games when stupid prizes. That's my new favorite saying, have you ever sat there and watched a Netflix show? A dock you series and you see this FBI agent? That's just hounding this potential serial killer. He's like who did it? Where the body is and he's screaming. He's slamming his hands down on the table And you're getting frustrated as if you were you're like what what is this? He's not gonna open up to you. You're not even forming a connection ask him about his mommy

He's got mommy issues. What are you doing? FBI agent you you suck at this I could do so much better do you know me true crime podcasts? I've listened to I can do so much better at interviewing a serial killer Well, what if you were given the opportunity? What if you could actually sit down and interview a serial killer? Would you take it? I was questioning myself. I'm thinking to myself if an FBI agent came to me and was like Hey, we want you to sit in with us on this interrogation, I don't think that I could say no. I don't think so. What?

I mean, I would never get the opportunity, thank God. But I don't think that I could say no, could I? Of course you wouldn't know. You said not in my house. Or maybe when people ask the hypothetical question, if you could have one dinner date with someone, whether they're dead, they're sitting on death row, they're still alive to this day, who would you choose? I mean, we'd probably choose a serial killer, right? Definitely not a cannibal. You're like thinking, Walt Disney, I'm thinking Ted Bundy on different pages.

Which it's all fun and games, because of course these are hypothetical questions You're not gonna be able to interview these serial killers unless you're like a crazy journalist Maybe you are an FBI agent. You're not gonna be able to have dinner with Ted Bundy because he's dead But here's something that people can do which you really shouldn't is write letters to serial killers Some of the most notorious serial killers that are sitting in prison receive thousands of letters every single year from people wanting to date them from people wanting to marry them to have their children from reporters, people who want to interview them, people who want to write books about them, and then people who just want to be friends with the serial killer. What happens when you just want to be friends with the serial killer? Well, we're going down the rabbit hole this week. We're going to be

talking about a man by the name of Jason Moss, who decided that when he was 18 years old for a college thesis project that he was going to reach out to all of these serial killers and just learn about their deepest darkest fantasies. He wanted to know everything. So I am talking John Wayne Gacy, they've exchanged hundreds of letters. Talked on the phone for an hour every single week, every single Sunday. He visited John Wayne Gacy, the clown killer, twice in prison. They have pictures together.

He exchanged letters with Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, Elmer Wayne Henley, so many different serial killers. And afterwards, I mean, it was just months and months of just being bombarded with these serial killers letters talking about their deepest sexual fantasies, talking about what they wanted to do if they were ever released from prison. And it really mentally messed him up. He wrote a book on it and years passed. He got his life together and you just, just when this book was about to be turned into a movie, he ended up taking his own life

on June 6th, 2006. So there's a lot of theories on this case, did you know, having close contact with serial killers caused him to take his own life, what's going on here, what's the full story? Now we're gonna jump right in because it's really thick, but I have a couple of disclaimers, the first one being that it's gonna be really graphic, it's not like the other episodes we've done, there's gonna be a lot of open-ended questions on this one. This episode is not rooted in provable facts. So we have the victims word for it and there will be times where you begin to question some parts of the story, but there will be other times where there is proof that's provided. So it's all over the place. And the book's title, which is where most of this

comes from, is written by Jason Moss himself and a professor. It's called the last victim. Now, I don't really like the title of this book. I don't agree with it, and you guys will see why I really don't like it at the end of this podcast, because it gets super controversial. But other than that, I'm just going to jump right in. Also, we're going to start with his childhood. He was born into a working class down to Earth family in Las Vegas. So his dad was a salesperson at a department store, and his mom, she was a cashier at a local casino. Now he does have one younger brother, so now it's going to be Jason and Jared, and that

is the family. Ever since Jason was young, the thing that everyone's at about him is that he is just so hard to control. He is just this spunky kid. How did you even make a kid like this? He doesn't want to do the normal things like play with toys. He wants to go explore, he wants to learn these things, he wants to- he wants to start a lemonade stand. What a- what an entrepreneur. And right when they get into elementary school, middle school, high school,

Jason does so well in school. I mean virtually anything that he puts his mind to, he is considered overall a super ambitious kid. Now what's interesting about his upbringing is that he was half sheltered, half not sheltered. So his mom was really really strict on the fact that, hey, you cannot watch any horror movies. Absolutely not. Not under my roof. I don't approve of this stuff. It's going to give you nightmares. Now at the same time Jason's mom was obsessed with true crime. So her entire living room, her entire coffee table, the bookshelves were just cluttered with true crime books that got incredibly graphic and she let Jason read those books. How does that work? I don't know what maybe it has to do. I don't know. Maybe she thinks that true crime books are alerting experience because it's true. I don't know. Maybe she thinks that True Crime Books are a learning experience

because it's true. I don't know. So he would just grow up reading some of these really intense, graphic books versus he's not allowed to watch the screen movies. It's just the strangest thing ever. And he would constantly get into fights with his mom because I think both of them had this really intense,

controlling personality. And Jason just wanted to do whatever he wanted to do and by the time that he's 13 years old his mom comes home with a stack of true crime books, plops them down onto the table and she's like Jason, you're not gonna believe this one. There's this guy and he would take the skin off of the woman that he'd kill and he would save it. He was trying to make a suit out of real human skin. He wanted to wear the suit so that he could become a woman. Isn't that crazy? So Jason being 13, he's like, well mom, why can't you read a cookbook?

Why are you telling me, why are you reading this? And she says, no, no, no, no, no. Here's where it gets even crazier. He kept a box of women's vaginas. What? Yeah, he made a belt out of human nipples. Can you imagine wearing that one to school? Yeah, he also had lampshades made out of human flesh.

What's insane? By the way, she's talking about Edgain and we did do a podcast on him. And he's like, Mom, this is disgusting. No, I don't wanna hear about all this sick stuff. You need to get it together. I'm gonna tell Dad that you're reading all this crap. Now here's the thing. Jason actually genuinely was starting to get into true crime. The older that he got, I don't know if it's being

exposed to true crime at a young age, but he genuinely was fascinated. He just didn't want to give his mom the satisfaction. No way. No way in hell is he going to give her the satisfaction of telling her you're right. True crime is interesting. Now secondly, even if Jason were to tell his dad, his dad was just a super nice guy. That's what everyone says. Even Jason, he just usually kept really quiet and let his wife, you know, Jason's mom run the house. She was the disciplinarian, he was the one that's like, oh I don't know, go ask your mom. You want to go to a sleepover? Ask your mom. Now Jason's mom seemed to be a very unpredictable disciplinarian to the point where sometimes she would call Jason over and she'd say, hey Jason, come here.

You've been so good, you know? And I noticed that you haven't had a new pair of shoes in two years. Here's $100. Go to the mall with your friends and buy whatever shoes you want. You have been so, so good. So he's like, what? Really? So he grabs his bike, he goes with his friends, brushes to the mall, picks out his new shoes,

comes home, and he's like, everybody sit down, I'm going to show off my new Nike shoes. And that is when his mom looks at the shoes, looks straight in the eye and says, you know what? Are you happy now? Are you happy now, Jason, that you just always get what you want? Your father's upset because I let you spend so much money on shoes because, you know, what the hell do you even do around the house? Nothing. You're a spoiled little brat and you think that you're the king, don't you? What? That's some toxic

stuff. Yeah, so there, I think that there was just a lot going on in that house. Ever since Jason was young, you know, especially during high school, people kept telling him, you're a natural, fearless, risk-taker. That's a compliment I've never heard. You're a natural, fearless, risk-taker. Who even comes up with a compliment like this? And so people always encouraged him, you need to use this strength. You need to go into an occupation, you need to use this strength. You need to go into

an occupation where you can really show this off. So he starts thinking on the suggestion of all of his teachers, his family friends. Maybe I will become a famous prosecutor one day. Maybe, maybe I can be an FBI agent. You know what's better than a regular FBI agent? An FBI negotiator. Holy shit, you know what? That's what I'm gonna do. That's perfect. So in high school, he starts playing all these sports. I mean, he was a super muscular dude.

Like I said, this book, he's not the most lovable person, so there's a lot of parts, I think like a good 60 pages about how he's just super fit, super muscular, and all of these, you know, other boys in high school are going to parties and making out with girls, but he's in his room contemplating how to control the most dangerous minds in the United States. You get it. So in today, it would be pick me boy.

Yeah, a little bit of pick me boy vibes. Respectfully, he just was good at karate, did football, did absolutely everything. So then he gets accepted into the University of Las Vegas and he decides to major in psychology. Like I said, he wants to get into people's minds. So his first week in college, he's not checking into a dorm, he's staying at home commuting from home and he's just so stressed out. Like it's just not what he thought it would be. He's just getting a little bit frustrated, so he decides to go to his karate class.

So he's meeting his karate teacher for an appointment, but the teacher's running late. Now this time in Las Vegas is freaking hot. He doesn't want to keep the car on, you know, that's a waste of gas. So he's looking at the strip mall plaza where he has this karate class and he's like, I just need to find some like air conditioned space for like 10 minutes while I wait. So well, that's a dry cleaner. Oh my god, I'm going to go into the use bookstorm. So he walks in there and starts walking around. It's air conditioned, he's just killing time. And that's when he comes across the true crime section. And he's just browsing the little spines, you know, reading the titles of all these books,

and a book catches his eye. The killer clown. John Wayne Gacy. And he's like, you know what? That's interesting, because I've always been afraid of clowns. You know, his most frequent nightmare that Jason ever had was that he'd be at his grandparents' house, and he'd be falling asleep in the middle of the night, he'd hear, pfft, like little noise.

So he'd get up out of his bed, and he'd walk down the stairs, and start to investigate. But right when he looks down, his grandma is dead at the bottom of the stairs with blood dripping out of her mouth. So right as he's about to scream, he hears this creepy little he-he-he-after. And he looks around the house and there's just a freaking clown

sitting on the lounge chair. Just pleasantly laughing and smiling this big red smile at Jason. And that is when Jason wakes up every single time. So he buys this book, goes to his karate class, you get it, goes home, and he starts reading about the killer clown, and he's absolutely fascinated by this guy. So John Wayne Gacy, we did a whole podcast on him, but a quick summary, if you guys don't know, his dad was an abusive alcoholic, this is really important. So John Wayne Gacy, the serial killer that is responsible for at least 33 murders, his dad was a super abusive alcoholic who seemed to have it out for him, you know, just really hated John Wayne

Gacy. You would call him things like you're a sissy, you're a mama's boy, you know, you're probably gonna grow up to be Poe queer, but regardless of that, you know, Gacy really loved his dad. Just like really loved him. Wanted is approval. Now when Gacy was young He was sexually assaulted by a family friend and he didn't want to tell his dad because he felt like his dad would blame it on him. Now he grows up to be heavily involved in the community kind of similar to Jason. At 18 years old, he becomes the assistant precinct captain for the Democratic Party candidate in the neighborhood. He joined the local JCs. Remember the leadership training program for people between the ages of 18 and 40?

They help you on your business development, your management skills, your individual training, your community service, and he just had a ton of career choices. Like at one point, the serial killer was managing three different KFC chains. He started his own business called PDM Contractor that he was making over like half a million dollars a year and then he joins the Jolly Joker clown club

and he became known as Pogo the clown patches the clown He had two clown identities He even met with the first lady of the United States and he had a picture with her Mrs. Carter and he's wearing this S-Pin that the secret service gives to people who have special clearance to meet the president And that was a huge embarrassment But I mean what do you expect the secret service to? Dig up everybody's yard before they meet the president? So he was known to have murdered at least 33 young men and boys. Most of them were buried in the crawlspace underneath his house, so his method of killing

them is also really important to Jason's story. And it was brutal. He would give them drinks and drugs, lure them to his house, gain their trust, and then he would say, do you want to see a magic trick? Because I'm a clown. It's the handcuff trick. So he would handcuff his own hands behind his back. And it seems like he might have learned a thing or two

from the Houston mass murder as Dean Coral, the candy man. And he would release himself magically. And you'd tell the kid, I can tell you how to do it. Here, put on the cuffs. So then the kid would handcuff himself. And then Gacy would start laughing and say, the trick is you have to have the key. And then he would proceed to rape and torture the victims.

He would sit on their chest to assault them, he would sawtimize them with different objects like pill bottles, he would make them get on all fours, like a dog, put a rope around their neck, start writing their back and making them make horse noises, like nay like a horse, while he pretends to ride a horse. He would drag them to the bathroom and partially drown some of them while constantly reviving them and then drowning them and then reviving them. Like this guy, why would you ever want to write to this guy is what I'm trying to emphasize. The most common method that he used to kill his victims was the rope trick. He would tie a

rope around their necks. This is so important. He would put a hammer handle within the rope and he would just start twisting the hammer handle so it could tighten the rope and he would have a lot of control over the tightening and the loosening of this and he liked it because he could bring his victims to the brink of death and then bring them back and do it over again. Because of this, you know, one victim was convulsing for one to two hours before dying. Sometimes while he was doing this, you know, one victim was convulsing for one to two hours before dying. Sometimes while he was doing this, he would sit on their chest and read them verses from the Bible. Most of his victims were between 14 to 21 years old. So Jason Moss is reading this, thinking to himself, wow, this guy's victims are basically the same age as me.

This is insane. I mean, we even have the similar builds. I am built like his victims physically speaking. And he couldn't stop wondering to himself, what would I have done if he tried to capture me? What would I have done? How would I have tried it around a way? Would I survive? Probably not. Now, there are so many questions that he felt like the book didn't answer.

The book answered how he killed them. You know, what he did, what he said, How he confessed to the police? How he was cut. But didn't ask questions that Jason had. Such as, did the act of killing for the 33rd time? Was it any different from the 17th time? Or the first time? Does it get better? Does it get worse? What happens? So he goes on this massive reading spray and he starts getting bothered by all of these unanswered questions that no psychologist, no FBI agent that's interviewed for the book, they can't answer it. And are they even, he starts getting bothered by that. Are these experts, the police and these psychologists? Are they even doing enough to find out the most that they can from these types of criminals?

I feel like not. That's what I call a bit of an ego. So after his first week of college, he's like, yeah, this feels like an extension of high school. I'm living at home. Just the same old classes. It's not that entertaining. I kind of want some excitement in my life.

And, you know, like I said, he had these FBI dreams. What helps, you know, what sets him apart? Everyone's going to be applying for the FBI. Everyone wants to be a CIA, FBI, three acronym agent, but I can set myself apart. If I can gain the trust of a serial killer, if that doesn't get the FBI's attention, what would? So that night at dinner, they're just like eating spaghetti, and he just randomly brings up this idea to his parents. He says, hey, uh, wait till you guys hear my latest idea. I'm gonna write a letter to John Wayne Gacy. Maybe even Jeffrey Dahmer. I was thinking, you know, Charles Manson, he's in prison in California. That could be fun. And it was just absolute silence. So, like, did you hear me? Hello? I'm gonna

write a letter to a serial killer. Some of them are on death row, but they're still alive. They're gonna be executed one day, and I wanna talk to them before they get executed. This mom's like, why on earth would you want to write to a killer? I mean, this is a woman who's obsessed with true crime, but she's on the right page. What, why on earth do you wanna write to a killer?

And more importantly, why would he write back to you? Like, you're just some random kid in Las Vegas. Why would he write back to you? They're like, yeah, well, he's not going to write back to you. And he's like, no, no, no. Like, think about it. Like, it would be so crazy. Wouldn't it be cool how many people can say that they talk to a serial killer?

Like, nobody. And what's the harm? They're in prison, mom. It's not like they're going to get out. They're on death row So it seems like the mom's getting a little bit stressed out and the rest of the family I mean they're just making jokes the little brother who's 14 is like what if they write back in blood and the dad's like What if they ask you send your blood? What are you gonna do then and they're all giggling and the mom's like the only one that's getting pissed off right?

And I think it's because maybe she isn't to true crime and and she's like, oh no, that's dangerous, right? And the dad's like, listen, but don't get stressed, even if he does write to these people, they're not gonna freaking write him back. What's the big deal? Lettermite these little love letters. No one's gonna respond, okay? So they just continue dinner that way,

but he was dead serious. So he goes back up to his room and he's thinking, okay, yeah, my mom is right. Why would they write back to me? They get thousands of letters There's got to be so many people in the United States that are like, oh, I could totally just like pick this brain of this serial killer. Why me? I know what I have to do. I have to be the perfect victim. I can't be someone that just wants to pick their brain because every journalist, every interviewer, every author, every NBC, CNN wants to pick their brain.

I can't be just a fanboy because they have so many fanboys. I have to be someone that they are intrigued by. I have to be their perfect victim. And he's cocky, he's 18 years old, he's thinking to himself that if I am the perfect victim, I'm gonna get them to spill all of their most valuable information that they haven't even told law enforcement and psychologists. I'm gonna get it and we're gonna walk into the FBI field office and say, guess what? You better be teaching my shit at Quantico, like something like that, okay? He was really feeling himself, really feeling like he was going to do something. Now, it's obvious that at the time he lacked serious self-awareness. Like, this is not going to happen, but it gets really intense. So he comes up with these fake stories that Gacy can relate to. So he's like, okay, my backstory, and he's writing them down on a journal so he can keep all of his stories

straight, because mind you, he's trying to talk to like half a dozen zero killers. So with John Wayne Gacy, he's going to mention that he was sexually assaulted as a kid. Yeah, that's not a true story, but John Wayne Gacy was assaulted as a kid. So maybe they can relate on that. He's gonna say that my dad is a bully, which he's not, but he's just making shit up, okay? He's gonna say that I am sexually confused.

Maybe I'm gay, I don't know, I'm embarrassed. Am I gay? What do I do? Which isn't true because Jason was straight and he had a girlfriend But he decided he needed to be the perfect victim So he starts doing all this research in the middle of the night He would sneak out of the house and start going to these gay bars so that he could talk to gay sex workers that he could find Get a better idea of understanding, you know, very specific lingo that could be used in the community

Learn what you know being a top is what is being a bottom, all of these things. So he spends just like days upon days reading all of these books, all of these articles, watching interviews, anything and everything about John Wayne Gacy. And then finally, he wrote his very first letter. Dear Mr. Gacy, my name is Jason Moss, I'm a student at the University of Nevada. I'm 18, and I'm writing to you because I thought you might get bored or lonely where you are, and you might want someone to correspond with. I'm sure there are many others who write to you, but I hope you take the time to write me back.

You'll see that I'm a pretty nice guy, and I know what it's like to be bored and alone. The constant screaming of my father keeps me secluded in my room when I'm not at home or the gym. I just, I hate it here. I guess I understand what it feels like to just need a friend. I don't know, at this point, what else can I say unless you write back? If you need anything, just let me know. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Your friend Jason Moss. And he kept the return address as his actual home address. I mean, otherwise he won't receive the letter, no?

Um, he probably would, his whole thing was if he sets up a PO box, he didn't think that John Wayne Gacy would write back to be a PO box because it feels like you have something to hide. So he's trying to, he's really trying to be authentic? Like, really trying to be the perfect victim genuinely. And almost immediately, he gets a letter back from John Wayne Gacy. Yeah. And it was a typed out letter thanking him for writing and a self-authored article describing John Wayne Gacy's version of events leading up

to his arrest and conviction. So it's pretty much like a fact sheet. So John Wayne Gacy's interesting. He was arrested, gave a confession, and then recanted it and said that he was framed. So now, I mean until the day that he's executed, he's appealing, working with attorneys, and just saying that his confession was coerced, it's been framed, he didn't draw the picture over the body, so a police officer must have drawn that picture. Just like all of that, so he gives a little fact sheet about how he's innocent of 33 homicides. And then he sends a questionnaire, sheet about how he's innocent of 33 homicides.

And then he sends a questionnaire which is so crazy to me. This is how many people were reaching out to John Wayne and Gacy. He had to he had to field them somehow to see which ones are interesting enough which one do I really want to spend my time writing back to. So you would send out a mandatory questionnaire and you'd have to fill it out. What is it? So the survey would say things like, my childhood hero was Blank. Why did I decide to write to John Wayne Gacy? My ideal evening is Blank. Something that nobody else knows about.

Blank, thoughts on sex, thoughts on crime. What are you thinking about right now? So he's like spending all of this time, Jason's like, okay, this is my one chance. If I fuck up this chance, he's not going to write me back. And that's it. So he's like spending just every single question catering it to becoming the perfect victim. I think a college application.

Yeah. So with the nobody knows, I'm, he wrote, thinking about becoming a new dancer turns extra money. He thought that this would be interesting because John Wayne Gacy talked about how he hated male sex workers a lot. So maybe this would bring up some emotion and some of his victims were male sex workers or he believed that they were or convinced himself that they were.

So if this opens the door to that. So he sent that out and Gacy responded. This is, his responses are creepy. He just immediately starts pulling him in. And he just says, you know, one of the things that you need to know about me, as a serial killer, is that I'm open-minded and I'm non-judgmental and I'm liberal and bisexual and I, and I say what I mean. The only thing that I ask of you, Jason, is that you don't assume anything of me.

If you're not sure, just ask. Nothing offends me more than that. Nothing is personal. No subject is off limits as long as you're willing to be just as open and honest with me. And then he went on a rant about how 80% of what is known about him in the media is a fantasy. And he also said, and I quote, if you want my honest opinion, that's what you get. I'm not into stroking you as you have your own hand for that when you get the daily urge. Ha ha. So he makes a lot of masturbation references, just like aggressive

masturbation references, just constantly saying things like, no, no, like I'm not going to lie to you as in just like sugarcoat things but you would constantly say I'm not trying to stroke you because you can do that yourself. And he would say things like don't worry I'm not gonna show your questionnaire to anyone else even if you say that you jerk off while you stand on your head don't worry I won't tell anyone. What is to stand on your head? Yeah do a head stand which apparently according to the letters to to Jason John Rengase said that his favorite masturbation pose was to do a headstand to be upside down.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So, Jason is officially sucked in, you know? He's writing back like he's just this sexually confused, 18-year year old, just the perfect, submissive, moldable victim, and he starts staying up till like four in the morning, reading more about Gacy, writing in his journal, okay, like this is what I'm going to say in this letter, rewriting, rewriting all these letters because he wants it to be perfect. He's keeping tabs on all of the lies that he's telling him because John Wayne Gacy is incredibly

suspicious in general as a person. So he needed to make sure that nothing would be a lie. Like he wouldn't get caught in a lie. And John Wayne Gacy, I mean Gacy would remember the smallest details. He would say, hey, remember when you wrote to me three weeks ago saying that you were wearing that red shirt with that logo on it? How come you never wore it again? Because you would write in every letter what he was wearing.

Like did you just throw away that shirt or you don't like the shirt anymore? That is so scary. Yeah, just like what happened to that shirt? So this proves to Jason like, Gacy's got his own index system. He's remembering everything. I gotta be really good about this. So they start talking about school sports.

Then Jason starts straight up asking him about the murders. And he just says Jason. So many other people had geeseed my house. They were always coming and going, you know? And they were using drugs. I was working so many hours. I was never home. Besides, you think that I'm so stupid that it actually buried bodies underneath my own

house? I did not kill or murder anyone. I own the property, so they want you to assume that I did not kill or murder anyone. I owned the property, so they want you to assume that I did. They say that I confessed, but there's no confession when they asked me in court. I was sold out by my attorneys for book rights. I am an embarrassment in the criminal's justice system in the United States, because if I am right, they are wrong. And they are wrong.

If I'm right, they're wrong. And are right there are all and there's too many careers money has been made off of my name for political reasons is better to kill me then to let the public know that they fucked up fifteen years ago when they convicted me what is uh... jason by any of these he said that at one point he felt like it made sense which is when he was like oh my god i'm losing my mind So he would constantly keep coming out of it. I mean, I know that Jason knew that he was guilty, right? Which is the whole purpose of reaching out to him, but there was just like moments where he was like wait, what?

Wait, what and he would he would go on these like rampages just he would go on these ramps I would go on for pages where John Wayne Gacy would tell him that he's a PMA person PMA, positive mental attitude. Who's PMA? John Wayne Gacy. Positivity. Yeah, he's a positivity guru. Just PMA, person. Death is negative.

Why think about it? And he would say, but I'm not a cream puff. I believe a true friend will not tell you what you want to hear to stroke you But we'll let you know what's right from their point of view just like constantly all of this stroking talk Now this is like weeks of communicating and Jason's life is starting to get turned upside down He starts getting bees and classes him and his girlfriend start fighting his friendships are dying out He gave up most of his hobbies, he stopped going to karate lessons, like you pretty much gave up all of it because there's nothing as exciting as communicating with the serial killer.

Like in the sense of like, you're writing this letter, you're playing this dangerous game, you're making up these lies and you know that this person is one of the scariest people in the United States, how can hockey practice even live up to that? I feel like I can't, right? And he's hooked on this. His mind is just completely occupied on what to tell Gacy next, or how to lead him into the conversation of his crimes. He's getting off on this high, and that's when he gets a letter from John Wayne Gacy that says,

you mentioned you have a little brother. 14 years old. Is he into sports like you? Do you get along with him? So Jason just stops in his tracks because this is this is weird, this is uncomfortable. All along it's just been like this pleasant time. Like yeah, creepy. Stop stroking me, you get it. But it hasn't been this personal, this like intrusive in his own life. So he's like, okay, okay, divert, divert the conversation but still keep it sexual because this is a sexual predator at the end of own life. So he's like, okay, okay, divert the conversation, but still keep it sexual, because this is a sexual predator at the end of the day.

So he asks John Wayne Gacy, what do you fantasize about sexually? So then he writes back and he says, I like to be the aggressor. I like to get it on with three sums. This is the serial killer, both female and male, making them my slaves in bed, doing it all. So with Gacy, he just constantly said that he was bisexual, in the sense that that's the most natural to be.

When you can't have sex with a woman, the next best thing is to have sex with another man. That's his, that's his ideology. But for him, I think genuinely he was gay. And because his whole abusive childhood with his dad, he never felt comfortable accepting that is my opinion. his whole abusive childhood with his dad, he never felt comfortable accepting that is my opinion, because once he started killing, he never had sex with women again. He just exclusively had sex with raped men. And Gacy starts calling Jason a toy boy, which he looked up,

and it's a term for a good looking boy that is sometimes a male sex worker that, quote, who gets what he wants using his body. So he starts kind of objectifying him like dear toy boy instead of dear Jason. And he starts asking Jason for pictures and he keeps bringing up his brother. And he says things like you mentioned your brother, but you don't tell me his name. You don't send me a photo of your brother. I would think that if you and I Jason are getting close,

you would share these things with me. Anyway, say hi to your brother for me. Oh my God. So Jason, I mean, he's 18. He's kind of giggling at first and he walks downstairs and he's laughing and he's like, you know, hey, Jared, 14-year-old brother, you know, Casey's been asking for you. I think maybe he wants to get to know you. Wait, so the family knows that. Yeah, at this point he's doing it. And they're like, fine, go ahead. Yeah, he's like, I mean, well, he is an Illinois, we're in Vegas, and he's in maximum security death row.

What's he gonna do? So they just kind of let it happen. And Jared is just shook up about this. I mean, the poor 14 year old, he's like, Jason, please, please don't get me involved. Like, I just, this guy's a freak. Like, I don't, I don't want to talk to him. I don't want anything to do with him.

And he's like, okay, okay, it's fine. Don't freak out. You don't have to talk to him. But, but I have an idea. It's a little bit crazy. But what if I broke the letter and you just copy it in your handwriting? Because obviously, if I write it, he's going to know it's me. It's the same handwriting.

And you just sign it at the end. And you don't have to read his letters. You don't have to think about what to say. It'll all be me. And he's like, no, wait, no. I don't even want him to know my name. And he's like, please, Jared. It would give me two different sources of information.

It would open up two lines of conversation. I can even cross-check to make sure that he's telling us the same stuff, please. OK, fine. So he starts handwriting these letters. And at first, of course, they're innocent. It's just like, hey, I'm Jared, I'm 14. I play baseball, and I'm in middle school, stuff like that.

And then eventually, he's writing things like, oh, I'm going to learn how to type. So that eventually, Jason can just type right everything. And then he would send the letter, he would show it to Jared, but he wouldn't let him read any of it, and Jared would just sign it at the bottom. So it's the same signature. And now it is just Jason talking to Gacy, but two times more. And this is adding to the isolation. I mean, he's feeling so isolated from his family. This whole interaction with Jared, it kind of pushed Jared away from him. It's just Jared's like, this is so creepy. Like, I feel almost like you're using me to get to a serial killer.

It's just weird. He's losing his friends. He's not doing well in school. And he felt like Gacy was the only thing in his life now. And he kept asking himself, like, am I becoming friends with Gacy? Like what is going on? So Jason thought, well, the more naive that I act, the more confident Gacy acts.

So I'm gonna start acting like I'm going through a tumultuous time. So he talks about how his dad's about to kick him out, he's emotionally and physically abusing him, he's worried that he's gonna be out of money and just homeless, what do I do, what do I do? And Gacy tells him, well, you can just sell your body on the streets pretty much,

that's how he phrases it, and he coaches him. You should wear this Jason You should say this to potential clients. You should I'm gonna give you a tutorial on what I would want in a sex worker And he talked about how you should do golden showers and charge them a hundred dollars And he would say it really graphically like let them urinate in your throat He would talk about how if someone is into BDSM and they keep punching you, you should probably just get punched, you know? I think that's the best way to handle it.

Like it is so much grooming, just grooming him to become even more isolated and submissive and feeling worthless. And then slowly they moved the conversation to phone calls. I mean, these gotta take a huge impact on your mental health, no? Huge, I can't even imagine. Can you imagine that? No.

Unbelievable. This is, oh my goodness. Because I'm trying to think of the moment you say that, hey, how's your brother? I bet that's like a moment of, like, you can fake it, right? No matter how much you fake it, now you have to say certain things about your brother in a different tone. You know, oh, it just gets so bad.

It gets worse because he fakes an incestuous relationship with his own brother. Oh, see, that's what I'm saying. Like, it's like no turning back. Yeah, the phone call, the conversation moves to phone calls, which I assume is so much worse. So he gives Gacy the phone number at nine o'clock Sunday morning, he's asleep in his bed, the phone rings, he has no idea who it is.

He picks it up, literally just woke up, and it's an automated voice recording saying, like, oh, this is the prison, do you accept the charges? And he says that he accept. And then the first words, what's up, buddy? And it's John Wayne Gacy. And he says, I know this is probably awkward for you. Just relax.

I'm watching TV right now, hanging out in my cell. What about you? So he's like, what? OK. And now the previous letter to this phone conversation, you know, Gacy had accused Jason of wanting something from him, like wanting an interview where wanting something from him. He's like, oh, people only reach out to me because they want something from me. And they got into a little bit of an altercation on the phone.

And Jason's like, I don't want anything from you. I just thought we were friends. Are those phone? Yeah. So this was in a letter before. Yeah. Like the previous letter that they had just sent before this phone conversation John Wayne Gacy was accusing him of like wanting something which is something that he did periodically Which is be like what you want from him just kind of like throw people off and Jason was like I told you I don't want anything from you. I just want to be friends like I can't believe that you think that low of me and John Wayne Gacy said you can be a feisty little shit

Can't you did you not get enough sex last night? Ha ha ha ha This is on the phone. Yeah, and so he's like frozen first of all He did not expect to be on a conversation with John Wayne Gacy this morning. It's Sunday morning Excuse me one. I'm going to brunch. What's happening? And so he offers Gacy offers him one of his paintings as a piece offering Because remember he was a painter in prison some of them sold for $10,000 in a gallery There was so much controversy over that you know reasonably and it's called Pennywise the clown Do you know the Stephen King book it's one of my most requested pieces Jason one, just like it, sold in New York for like $10,000.

So he's like, oh, thank you so much, yeah, but I have to go. It's Sunday and my parents are calling me. So he's like, okay, sounds good, and they hang up. And immediately, the phone rings again. So it's the same automated voice he accepts the charges. And it's John again. And and Gacy says how are you? I'm just calling back because I didn't think you believed that it was me who called I just want to let you know that it really is me John Wayne Gacy

Anyway, well, I guess I'll let you go now remember to keep the letters coming And he hangs up I Think okay, so I know some people might not think that this is like crazy but to me it's stressing me out because I have a hard time even responding to just a normal person's text message but imagine a serial killer just is mentally forking with you on an innocent Sunday afternoon so Gacy starts sending checks to the house close to $900 total for the collection calls,

because you have to pay to talk to prisoners. So he's covering the cost of... $900? Yeah, paying for the cost of... They would talk every Sunday for at least an hour, every single Sunday for months. So instead of mental health therapists? Yeah, you're like, just my weekly serial killer, Convose.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, it made me become, I mean, even why I saluted because of these phone conversations. His brother found out that they were talking on the phone. And Jared's like, I don't, I don't ever want to like answer phones in this house anymore. I don't even want to hear his voice. I don't even want to hear John Wayne Gacy say hi.

And later we find out that Jared had been having terrible nightmares for weeks. Because you know, I mean, imagine your brother is talking to a serial killer. They know the address. They're calling the house. How is that okay for a 14 year old? So Gacy would start sending these packages, these care packages, paintings, porn books, photos of naked men. So as they're talking on the phone, he finds out that Gacy has somehow convinced himself that it's not his crimes that made him famous, but it's his stellar personality in his intellect that won him all of this international attention.

It's not the 33 boys that he killed. It's because, you know, he's just such a good political figure. Oh shit. Best KFC manager that ever existed. And in jail, he's living like a celebrity. He had his own private cell because he's on death row. He had a TV. He had money from the sale of his paintings.

And a lot of the guards were just like eating out of his hands. Whether they were afraid of him, whether, you know, he was paying them, probably, bribing them. There was just some weird shit going on. Most of the inmates were terrified of him. It seemed like he just got everything that he wanted in prison. What?

Yeah, that is the speculation from a lot of different people, not just Jason Moss. Now, of course, we'll never really know the truth because what goes on in prison is crazy, and we never find out the truth, because they covered up. But I wouldn't doubt it. I feel like when you do have money and you're in prison, you can get a lot more access to things.

And that is when the phone conversations turn yet again. And it keeps telling Jason, Jason, you don't know how lucky you are to be in the situation that you are in right now. What do you mean by that? Well, you have your little brother and you guys can use each other to get off just all day long at night in the morning, all day, every day. He's like, oh, well, that doesn't really sound right. And like, what if my parents found

out, relax! No one's going to find out. You just go into his room in the middle of the night and you pretty much sexually assault him. I mean, the way that he describes it is really graphic. It's really disgusting, but he's describing Jason sneaking into the hallway, into his 14 year old brother's room in the middle of the night and sexually assaulting him. And he keeps saying, call him into the room right now. Pretend I'm not on the phone, I wanna hear it. So he's like, he's into the room right now. Pretend I'm not on the phone, I want to hear it.

So he's like, um, he's, he's at baseball practice right now. He's not here. He's not home right now. Sorry. And Gasey would say, we'll make sure to try it this afternoon or tonight when he gets home. How is he feeling about all of this? Really disgusted. But he doesn't know. I mean, he feels like he's come this far. He wants to keep going further because he hasn't gotten anything that he wanted So I think that the problem during all of this which like I'm sure everyone has seen this and thinking the same thing is that You literally are becoming the perfect victim, but the whole time he thinks that he is the master manipulator But in reality Jason's getting manipulated this whole time He got nothing out of Gacy. Yeah, Gacy's getting entertainment gacy's getting this sick fantasy this strange information Meanwhile Jason has not gotten one Iota of information that you couldn't have gotten on Google

Yeah, so Jason wants to once um Gacy to confess to something exactly to befriend him and then to get all of his dark secrets. Things that the police couldn't get. Things that the FBI couldn't get. And so his first step is to build a friendship with him. But in reality, no, you can't build a friendship with people like this. They're not going to tell you this shit if they haven't told the FBI. They're just not. And so he would, Gacy would start sending these hypothetical letters that he would write off as fiction later. And he would say things like, okay, well this is probably the different reactions that your brother's gonna have. A, his reaction is gonna be this, that's when you say this. Like pretty much saying this is how you break down all of the defenses of your

little brother. He's so good at grooming. Yeah, like just saying all of this and he was just normalizing this and Gacy even claimed to have a sexual relationship with his sister when they were younger. Now, it seems like he might just be saying this just to normalize incest for Jason. I don't really know. Now you would think that Jason would stop sending letters at this point. You're like, oh wow, this is like, this is too much.

He's like pressuring me into an incestuous relationship, which obviously isn't going to happen, but disgusting. But no, he keeps writing and if anything, he starts getting bored with Gacy. He feels like Gacy is too predictable. And he wants to write to some serial killers that aren't as predictable, namely Charles Manson and Richard Ramirez. Some very erratic people. So Charles Manson is a very interesting choice to write, too.

This is probably the last person I would have written to if you were still alive. Because this guy is known for having power over people on the outside. Like this guy is known for having like a cult like following, regardless of the fact that he himself is in prison walls, you know? And most of the murders, he didn't even do, he facilitated it, so this is like the last person you should be writing to. Um, one of his followers tried to assassinate the president after Charles Manson was in prison. Yet thankfully it was a horrible job.

She pointed a loaded gun at the president, but it didn't fire. So we later find out that there wasn't a bullet in the chamber. So I don't know if that's just bad planning or what. At first she said that she wanted to kill President Nixon because he was the president during the Manson trials. But he resigned because of, you know, Watergate. So then she tried to assassinate President Gerald Ford. Gerald Ford. But you're like, yeah, let me just, let me just write to this guy who has got followers who

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your first fragrance. Go to centbird.com and use my code rotten for 30% off your first month. Again, that's scentbird.com for you to try your first perfumer clone for just $11. Now Charles Manson was the opposite of Gacy and these letters. He was a straight-up hustler. He straight-up just wrote in broken English and he said, I will only write to you if you pay for subscriptions to magazines for me because prisoners cannot get their subscriptions themselves. They can only be gifted by friends and family for whatever reason. What's the subscription? Like magazine subscriptions. So you're thinking, Vogue, I'm thinking Harper's

Bizarre, but they're thinking porn, porn magazines, right? So even if the inmates have money and needs to be a gift. Strange. I don't know if that law has changed, but that is the way it worked then. So he says, because people play you and use you for things beyond your wildest dreams, this is what Charles Manson says. So he demanded something before they're even allowed to have a conversation. And once they do, the writing is so odd.

He has writing, he said that it looked like the product of an eight year olds. Like a demented eight year old, like a possessed eight year old. The letters were super short, compared to Gacy's, which was like 10 pages per letter, right? They said absolutely nothing. They were all over the place. One letter would him be rambling about nonsense, and then the next one is him accusing Jason of betraying him.

Like, what? Oh, you're not even part of your cult, bro. Like, how may betray you? And then the next one would be super angry that the magazines haven't arrived on time. And he would just be like, berating Jason. And he would say things like, first I got no books. And it's clear by your words that you were raised and taught how to bullshit your own thoughts. And pay rent to live in your old life.

You're a gamer and start out hiding behind your own words about what you think is all yourself. Sometimes we really got a question how he had a following. And that's what he said. Maybe it's not him. No, it isn't. It isn't. Yeah. I mean, I know that he's very persuasive and there was a lot that lined up in his favor.

He was the wrong person at the right time during a movement in California where people were looking for a leader, right? We know that, but like, just looking at these letters, it's a whole different story. And he would say, I know a whole system of people like you who hide in books and schools and live on paper, computing banks and past.

How long you been working in the mail room unless you make the rules in the mail room? I feel like he thought that he did something and not one, but yeah. So you had this personal conversation. It gets like when you're like all the way sitting up there as a co-leader. You could just say anything.

These can be really like debawards. Okay, ready? How long you been working in the mail room unless you make the rules in the mail room? Unless you make the rules in the mail room. See? Thank you. I am the next finance guru. Thank you for tuning in. So he had this personal stationary with the watermark of Charles Manson's eyes, which is what people are so terrified of, in the back of a lot of his letters. He would send poems. This is one of the poems and I quote,

B-Bop! B-Bop! But I mean B-Bop! Yes! Okay! B-Bop, boot and shoe, ding dong, the bell has wrong. But Jason said it was worse than reading Gacy's letters. He felt like every time he read Charles Manson's letters, he felt like he needed to take a shower. It just felt like his weirdness was rubbing off on him. Not necessarily as scary, but just like freaking weird and I need to shower because there's some like, it feels like when someone is losing it next to you,

you start feeling like, wait a minute, am I starting to question reality right now? What's going on? That's what he felt like. And then Manson started sending all of his responses on the back of other letters, just pretty much mocking all of these people that write to him. And showing Jason, you're not special.

Look at how many people will write to me. So the letters end up going nowhere because they're too sporadic. They're too all over the place. I mean, bebop, you know, it's just too much. Like he's not getting anything out of this that the FBI is gonna be interested in. Like bebop, boot and shoe, they don't care.

So he starts debating. Should I go to California and visit Charles Manson and person and interview him in jail as a visitor? But the idea, he said that visiting Gacy, you know, seemed calm, seemed structured, but the idea of visiting Charles Manson felt like it'd be too wild, just too spontaneous. So, he's even planning on visiting. He's getting Gacy, and that is when all hell breaks loose.

So Jason sees this at all small autograph store in Las Vegas, and he decides to to walk up in there because he's like, you know what? Let's just see so he sees guitars signed by famous people like baseball bats signed by you know baseball players like signed by me Yeah, of course baseball players and he's like well, what if I had a letter from Charles Manson signed by Charles Manson from the facility that Charles like I can prove it It's Charles Manson and they said Charles Manson Yeah, his letters are pretty rare. So probably like two thousand dollars So he's like two thousand dollars. What about John Wayne Gacy? Well, he's he's famous. Yeah, for sure, but he writes for a lot of people he writes a lot So he's probably bad average maybe a couple hundred dollars. I did not know there's a market for that

Yeah, I think it's crazy. I would never. Like I love true crime, but I'm not gonna be pying letters. Yeah, I'm signed. But I wouldn't recommend anybody doing that. Yeah, don't do this. Don't be selling this, okay? And what if I add several dozen letters?

All of them that are very explicit in John Wayne Gacy's sexual taste? What? Are you lying to me? Don't lie to me. He's like, never mind, never mind. I don't even want to sell it anyway. I don't know why you brought it up, but what about other people? Like what are some of the most expensive serial killer signatures? Um, well probably Jeffrey Dahmer, you know that cannibal guy?

Yeah, well he doesn't really write to people. His stuff is extremely rare. I never see it on the market. There's a market for these? Yeah, I think I've only seen maybe like one or two people who's ever received a letter back from Jeffrey Dahmer. So his would probably go for a couple thousand dollars. But yeah, other than that, John Wayne Gasey is probably a couple hundred.

So that's when he goes home and guess what? He immediately starts studying Jeffrey Dahmer. And he said that he felt so grossed out. Compared to John Rangacey and Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer is just really nasty, you know? And so he wrote his first letter that says, dear Jeff, which by the way we have a podcast on him, just a quick note his summary, he killed at least 17 boys, seemed that he wanted a forever friend. He wanted to make a human zombie by injecting acid into brains while these kids were still alive. He engaged in necrophilia, cannibalism during the murder, so he wanted to preserve the

body, especially the skull. So he would do these things where he would soak it in acetone, put it in the freezer, bake it in the oven. I mean, at one point he had a skull in the oven that exploded. He was like living in an apartment building at this time, and like none of the neighbors had much of an idea. He would talk to the severed heads of his victims while he continues dismembering the rest of the victim's body. He would even try to preserve the skin of some of these victims. He would eat the hearts, the livers, the biceps, and some parts of the thighs. He would also leave the bodies laying in his bed to decompose for like days and he would go up and just have sex with the corpse while it's infested with maggots.

Would you write to this dude? No you freaking wouldn't, okay? Because we are saying here on this podcast, we're saying. Please tell me you guys wouldn't. His letter is yet again catered just towards Jeffrey Dahmer. Dear Jeffrey, my name is Jason Moss. I'm writing you this letter because it's super late where I am. I'm taking care of my sick grandma and she's just been throwing up all night and I'm afraid

she's gonna die. If she dies, it'll just be me. I'll be all alone. Both my parents were killed in a car crash last year. I just feel really lonely and scared. Sometimes I just want to die. I heard about the things that you did and I understand. I think I get you. How you just don't want to feel being alone. I just think I need a strong man in my life, but I don't know. I hope you have a good new year, and I hope you write back to me. And he sends off his letter.

Again, catering to Jeffrey Dahmer, very different from his letter to John Wayne Gacy. Now he does claim that there was a lot of truth to this letter. He was feeling super isolated. He had broken up with his girlfriend. His family was upset with him, and they were just getting so frustrated. Like, can you just let this go? And he kept saying, no, this is for my senior year thesis. It's going to be four years in the making.

I'm going to have this bomb-tastic thesis. I'm going to graduate and I'm going to be an FBI agent. Like just mom, dad, you don't want me to be successful. Like there are just all of these fights and I mean, he was completely alone in this world. Just he was turning into a completely different person. He wasn't showering, he wasn't taking care of himself, he's just writing letters, studying and just rewriting.

It was bad. So weeks pass without getting a response from Jeffrey Dahmer and he starts getting frustrated because he's like, wow. So John Wayne Gacy writes to pretty much everybody. Charles Manson, he just wanted magazines from me. This proves that maybe I'm not special. Maybe they're not writing back to me because I'm different. Maybe they just wanted something from me.

So as an ego boost, he decides to write to Richard Ramirez. Because if Richard Ramirez writes back, this is confirmation that he can do something, you know? They're times the charm. So Richard Ramirez, I mean, he terrorized Los Angeles. This is the night stalker we're talking about the Bay Area. His victims that he would rape and murder ranged from 9 years old to 83 years old.

Like this guy, I mean, everyone was terrified him. You can't even say, well, I'm not a victim because I'm like, dude, like he would just shoot up dudes in their house. He would invade their house, shoot up the dude, rape the wife, and then murder her. You could be an 80-year-old grandma and you're still in danger. He would leave satanic symbols all over the crime scene. There was one time worth an 81-year-old woman that he raped and murdered. He left a satanic pentagram symbol on her thigh, her walls of her bedroom with lipstick. He would force people to confess their love to Satan while he's brutally assaulting them. And during the trial, he would have pentagrams drawn on his palm, flash a smile to the cameras in the courthouse.

I mean, it was just really bad. Now, side note, this motherfucker that I just explained was engaged twice in prison. Engaged twice in prison. What? So Jason claimed that Ramirez was different from him. He was intrigued by the fact that Richard didn't lure people to his domain, like all of these other people. You know, John Wayne Gacy brought people to his house and all of that.

Charles Manson set other people to do his bidding. But Richard Ramirez, he would destroy people in their own domain. That's what he said. And I quote, he didn't care who the victim was. He didn't care where the location was. He would break into people's homes and assault them and murder them inside of their houses. That's terrifying. So with this one, he's not the perfect victim because he's not a woman, you know, and he's not someone who has, you know, a woman next to him that Richard Ramirez just needs to kill him to get him out of the way, right? So he decides to go to a different approach, Satanism.

Now, side note, disclaimer, this isn't really Satanism. This is like that one person who thinks that they know Satanism and then decides to kill people in the name of Satanism and it's not at all what it represents. So he starts researching, just spent months. Now mind you, keep in the back of your mind the day that Jason took his life.

So he spends months diving in to Satanism, just non-stop reading, staying up at night, reading about it, so that he could write a letter to Ramirez talking about how he's a high priestess and has started his own satanic cult in Las Vegas. So he really needs to know a shit. Not saying that Richard Ramirez knows his shit, but you know he wants to do diligence. So he writes to him and says, how are you? I worship the dark Lord too. I shed and drink the blood of a sheep every night and the dark one's name. I'm the grand priest of a cult here in Vegas. All of my 57 members worship you almost as much as we do, the Dark Lord.

Give us your words, give us your teachings, to help us follow the path that you've set for us. I have many women here for you. I'll send some photos if you'd like. They love you, Richard. My girlfriend wants you to beat the fuck out of her. No, I'm just imagining. I know that him and his girlfriend broke up but if you ever did this shit and wrote to someone like this and said my fiance wants you to beat the fuck out of her.

For a school project work project I don't care, we're done. She wants you to show her what it's like to worship the dark lord and he drew a pentagram and wrote Hail Satan, Hail Richard, your loyal follower Jason Moss, which like side note, Hail Satan, Hail Richard, like Richard is like the most professional name ever just doesn't work with me. So Richard Ramirez wrote back super blunt. How are you? How old are you? I request photos of women in your cult plus send over some hardcore Asian bondage magazines No freaking war

Just like super blunt did not care to give him his teachings So Jason goes over to his friend in college who happens to be a photographer now photographers have Sometimes like you do like Badoire shoots Badoire Badoire. I don't know how to pronounce it, but you get it. Like maybe like semi-newed shoots with women and he said, Hey, I want some pictures of the models that you took. I hate this. I hate this so much because imagine just being a model trying to make it,

you take some pictures with a photographer. That photographer gives it to some rando and he sends it to a serial rapist and serial killer. So he's like, I need some pictures. And the photographer is like, what? So you can jack off to them. No way. But long story short, apparently the photographer owed him.

There was something going on there. He owed him. That's all I know. So he gets all of these pictures and he sends them to Richard Ramirez. And Ramirez sends a letter right back. And as I thank you, he followed the outline of his hand on a piece of paper for Jason and his followers to worship his hand. Now his hand was humongous. He said truly the hand of a monster. He put his hand on that outline and every single finger of Richard Ramirez was at least an inch longer than Jason's. Jason is like an athletic

built 18-year-old full-grown dude. I mean you could easily fake that too, right? Yeah, but I heard he is known for having some weird ass long ass creepy hands okay so um he just he was freaked out by this at the bottom Richard Romero has had drawn a bunch of skeletons that says hands of doom and gloom evil hands are happy hands death is more than a word or action that takes place there's no word for it it It's a feeling. One of immense intense and delicious nature. Everyone cries, but death is good. This is where the nightmare start, you know, just piling up for Jason. He just starts having crazy nightmare after nightmare. His main nightmare at this point was nightmares about Ramirez. They're walking through this neighborhood at night, and they're just talking. He said the feeling is almost like you're talking to an old friend. You feel like logically you should be scared, but he felt safe for some reason.

So he's talking to Richard Ramirez, and then they see a tiny little girl pass on a bike. And then all of a sudden, everything starts turning dark, like really red. Like blood red. The sky looks really red, and Ramirez smiles at him and says, let's go. So he's like, what? And he's motionless. Jason can't move in his dream. And then the night stalker pulls the girl off of her bike, slams her onto this man and holds her down by her throat and says, Jason, Jason, get the hell over here. Help me kill this bitch. And he's like this little girl.

Sometimes his nightmares would be John Wayne Gacy calling his name in like this long hallway. Jason. Jason. Bro, I watch one scary movie and I have nightmares. And it really started affecting his life. So he decided, I, these nightmares are going to kill me. Like I need to, I need to get out. I need to touch some grass, okay?

So he goes out with his brother to the movie theater and he realizes he's getting so paranoid there was this guy sitting a couple rows back and this is before the movie had started so the lights are on and he had this bag almost like protectively placed between his legs and he's alone he's like looking at him and he whispers to his brother he's like look at that guy over there and he whispers to his brother, he's like, look at that guy over there. And he's like, okay, what about him? He's tracking people out. Um, so what? Look, look, look at the bag on the floor.

I swear there's something wrong with him. I bet that he's got a gun in that bag. I bet you. What? I bet he has more than one. What if he opens fire? You know, you know, people are like this. I'm telling you, this guy's strange.

He probably has an anger to society. He's gonna snap. He's gonna try to take us all out. We gotta go, Jared, let's just go. He's like, what? No, the movie hasn't started yet. I'm gonna watch this. I got my popcorn.

Jared, let's go. And he's like, no, I'm not going. And so he stands up in front of the movie theater like while people are watching the previews and he keeps grabbing Jared physically. Like like I said, let's go. And so everyone's quiet just staring at them. And so Jared gets embarrassed and he says, fine. And he gets up and he just goes home and refuses to talk to his brother. Because he's like, what is wrong with you? Get it together. He's not going to kill us.

So he just felt like he saw evil in everyone. He just saw something so gross and dark in everyone. Someone could just look a little bit different or look a little bit salty that day and he would be so paranoid that this person is a serial killer. So he continues writing to Richard Ramirez, sending him letters and Richard Ramirez had a fascination with one of these models and he would say things like, hey say hi to Jody for me and Jason would write back saying, well Jody's absolutely in love with you, wants to meet you in prison one day, which like Jason that's really messed up for doing that.

What are you doing? The letters also included more satanic symbols, images that Richard Romeras would draw of dismembered woman. Like he would dismember stick figures of woman. There was a self-portrait where he was Richard Romeras was the manifestation of the devil, and he had his hand, his giant hand that he had drawn, and 666 etched into it. and 666 etched into it. And then he drew a mantle, like almost like a fireplace mantle, right? And there was a female torso just sitting on top of it with blood dripping from it with no other limbs attached. And he called this, this artwork, the trophy collection. And he wrote a poem that says, breaking up is hard to do.

You would think, oh, this is like a middle schoolers poem about young love. No, body of a woman all severed and mutilated. Head, torso, butt, legs and arms all severed, all mutilated. You would like draw them. You would say, make sure to send more pictures of girls with their butts in the air and the back of their feet showing. So then eventually he started getting really stressed out by Richard Ramirez's letters because mind you, he's still talking to John Wayne Gacy every single Sunday, still sending

letters to them, still trying to talk to Charles Manson, you know, keep that going a little bit, but not as frequently. And he tells Richard, hey, I'm not going to be in contact for a while because I'm going to jail for beating up my girlfriend You know how it be and Richard remears wrote back. What did you do to her? Did you break her jaw? Did you stick needles in her feet and hands? Did you record her howling? Let me know And later Richard would tell him about killing be calm

And later Richard would tell him about killing, be calm, save her the moment. You smell the aroma of the moment, the electricity, the blood, the beast, but be careful to tidy up, meaning clean up after raping and killing victims. So then he's like, okay, this is a lot. And almost immediately he gets a letter from Jeffrey Dahmer. So he gets so excited which by the way he said that this letter meant the world to him which is kind of a clear indication of how far that he's gone in this process. Like this was confirmation that oh my god I'm different I'm special you know these people see something in me and I I can be an FBI negotiator because they're connected to me.

I don't even know if his whole mind is on the FBI anymore, no? I don't think so. I think it's kind of like a front. Yeah, he's like looking for validation from serial killer. Yeah. So alarming. Very alarming. So Darma writes back to him weeks later saying, just apologizing profusely, saying that I'm a much better talker than I am a writer, so I don't really keep up with my mail as I should. And you mentioned that maybe you wanted to send me some magazines, I would

love some. And he named titles of explicit gay magazines and asked for a photo of Jason and hope to hear from him soon. So, he gets so excited, Jason sends him a photo, and at this point he gets a little bit concerned. He's like, I wonder if he's looking at which part of me he wants to eat, right? But like, really, now's the time to get concerned, and Dommer would always write back super polite. So his letters, Dommer would write in just very polite language, but he was always include a picture of a naked man

with a full erection in every single envelope of every single letter, even if the letter was not explicitly sexual. Just says like a, here you go, here's a freebie. And so once Dahmer gets Jason's picture, he says, it looks like you have a great swimmer's build, although it's hard to tell because you're bent over in the picture, you certainly have a handsome face. I'm glad you didn't send a polaroid. They won't let

us keep them here, because they're afraid someone's gonna lick the chemicals off the bottom, strip or something. Anyway, next I'd like to see some full body shots. This is how he's writing it, like verbatim. Lying on the bed, hands behind your head, your chest fully inflated. I'd enjoy pictures of you reaching high for the ceiling. To me, there's nothing more erotic than a handsome young man with a rock hard body and a slim tapering waist. Sorry if that sounds demanding. But you've caught my interest, which isn't an easy thing to do. I'll be happy to accommodate you in the future if you accommodate me. So this is making him super nervous.

I feel like he was just putting Jeffrey Dahmer on this pedestal of like, oh, he never writes to anyone. So everything was moving so much faster than with John, you know, John Wayne Gacy or anybody else. This was just so quick. Now he's asking for these pictures. Everything's just moving so fast. He's like getting stressed out. So he told them that it's finals week coming up, but I will send you a ton of pictures after finals. We just give me a couple of weeks. Now Jeffrey Dahmer says, yeah, just don't forget about me. And let me know when you're ready to pursue a serious relationship. As long as you have the time without distraction, I'd be open to it.

So he said for the next couple of months, it's just, like, all these letters just pressed down on him like a coffin. Like, man, he's got these insane views on the world. Like, bebop, shoe drop, mic drop, like just too much, Dahmer is trying to seduce him and like be in a relationship with him. Ramirez, he just has these satanic visions of murder and wants everyone to murder for him and then Gacy wants him to have sex with his own brother. Like, there's just so much going on and he's got to keep his story straight with every single one.

Every single one requires so much different background information that he has to gather before writing this letter. I mean, he is losing his marbles. Then he gets a letter from John Wayne Gacy, which was essentially a quote unquote hypothetical blueprint on how Jason should assault his brother. And he had given JC, like, so JC wanted to know

that it lay out of his house when they were on the phone. Oh, I mean, yeah. So they're on the phone and he's like, well, my brother, my brother has the room about the garage and I'm like here, like he was explaining the room, right? Weeks later, this letter has the exact blueprint

of their house. And he says, so at night, you'll go through your door, walk through this hallway. Maybe he can, so at night you'll go through your door, walk through this hallway, maybe he can meet you in the middle. And then you go to his room, and he even like knew where the bed was and shit. And was like, this is how you're going to do this. It's going to be like this. It's going to take 30 minutes to do this. And then at the end, he said, eventually that once a night thing will become three to four times a day. What's his reaction when he got that? He said he was disgusted, but he felt like without leading him on more,

he was going to resort to finding someone else. So Jason wrote him a letter, a complete fictional letter, but it was a letter about him and his brother, engaging in incestuous activities. So the next day, you know, Gacy calls, and he's intrigued, he's got a million different questions. So because of these questions, you know, Jason said he had to kind of envision some of the stuff.

Like it's really hard to answer these questions in a way that seems truthful, especially to someone like John Wayne Gacy, without somewhat envisioning it, which he really didn't want to do and felt like had a massive mental toll on him later. But that's what he did, and John Wayne Gacy aided up. He just like aided up. Now some people speculate, well how, I mean this guy, this guy, how would he, doesn't even believe you, this doesn't make sense. And then some people argue, including Jason, that it's not necessarily that Jason was a great liar, or that he's a great storyteller, but this guy's in prison. He's on death row.

He has nothing but his fantasy, so maybe he is a little bit more open to believing bullshit. Because that's all he has. I mean, this was his dream. He comes up with a script, he tells the brothers how to act it out, they come back with details, and they just help him live out his own sick twisted fantasies because he's on death row. He would describe the positions that they need to try, some of the positions and the things that he wanted them to do resembled some of his murders, such as sitting on the chest of one another, and yeah, it was really sick and twisted.

And Gasey would always say that he's just so happy that he's like their older brother guiding them both. And they all share this common bond. They're like family. And if they ever stopped giving details about these fake sexual escapades, which by the way the little brother has no idea is going on. So he's writing two different versions. So from the perspective of his brother, from the perspective of him, and sending them out

to Gacy. And so if he ever stopped giving these details, Gacy would send them sweet letters and more paintings. They had three paintings so far. So then Jason's like, okay, I can't do this anymore. I need him to focus on something else. So he starts saying that, okay, I've gotten work as a sex worker to make money. And that's when Gacy's just going all out, telling, yeah, let people urinate on your face. During BDSM, you gotta do this, do that. And that's when Gacy starts pushing for him to start visiting him in prison in Illinois.

And he's like, I can't. My parents would kill me. Like, what am I gonna do? All my friends are going to Mexico for spring break. And I go up to my mom and I say, hey mom, guess what I'm going? Death row, like no no I can't do that we'll just don't tell them just drive your car to Illinois and you can meet me

stay on a motel I can't I don't even have the money to fill up my car to go to the local store okay let me see what I can do what look I told you I'll talk to my attorney I'll have him send you a check to cover the ticket and the hotel and even some spending money while you're here. How does that sound? What? So now he has no excuses. And he's like, oh, okay. I guess that sounds good.

And they hang up. Now after they hang up, he starts kind of getting of getting excited like this is what I've been waiting for You know all these letters we've been talking about some bullshit, but when I see him in person I can I can be an FBI agent I can negotiate the shit out of shit. I can I can find out all of the details Now Jason's 18 convincing his parents is gonna be really freaking hard especially his mom So the approach that he's taking is that, whatever it works with most moms, right? Especially my mom.

Hey mom, how many people can say that their kid interview to serial killer? Listen, that's crazy. You can brag to all of your friends. That I'm pretty much an FBI agent. Make it super professional. You know, what kind of mom wouldn't want that? I don't think my mom would want that.

But, you know, he was just kind of playing that part. And there was a part of his mom that wanted to live out her own FBI dreams, because she's always been into true crime. So she was like, okay, but, you know, one condition. I want to talk to the prison warden, which is like, you know, the guy who runs the prison, that's like saying, I want to talk to your parents before you go on this sleepover. Like, I want wanna talk to your parents before you go on this sleepover.

Like I wanna talk to the principal before you go on this school field trip. Like it doesn't really work like that in prison, right? I wanna know what are the visiting guidelines. I wanna know all of that. So he gets John on the phone, right? He gets Gacy on the phone and he says, Hey Gacy, my mom says, I might be able to go

if you get the word in on the phone. He says, easy, pretty, easy, breezy, cover girl. I got you. So they start talking on the phone. Now his mom gets on the phone with John Wayne Gacy So they're having a conversation. Well, the mom is talking that yeah, Jason's mom gets on the phone with John Wayne Gacy She knows yeah, she knows and she says what's gonna stop you from harming my son or making sexual advances or even killing him? I mean you're on death row. you don't really have anything to lose.

Your schedule execution is like, I don't know, two months away. No. Yeah. And he tells Jason's mom, okay, first of all, ma'am, I've never killed anyone. Okay, it's just perfect. Secondly, if I hurt your son in any way, they would take away all of my privileges. Which like doesn't make sense because what do you really have to lose? A serial killer wants to kill one last time versus TV in your room for another two months.

Like what are you going to choose? But before he can even say anything, the warden comes on the line. And she says, oh are you the warden? How can I be sure that nothing bad's going to happen to my son? And he says, well, you can never be completely sure about anything Mrs. Moss, but we take a lot of safety precautions here at Monard. Will he be able to touch Jason or like be near him? No, no, no, that won't even be possible. They're seated in two different rooms. There's a glass between them and you know, John's legs and hands, they'll be shackled as well. There's also a guard in the room where the

visitor is seated and it's monitored at all times. And you know, John Wayne Gacy, he gets visitors all the time. He's getting old. Surprisingly, he can actually be fun sometimes, so people like visiting him. What? And I don't think a guy who's trying to get out on appeal will risk his whole life and postpone it of his execution to try something stupid. And let me reassure you again. All he could do is try the security here is just too tight. So she hangs up and she says, okay, well, I guess then you can go. Now the only problem was that wasn't the warden. I knew it. It was one of the guards

that pretended to be the warden so that the parents would feel reassured. John had paid a guard to make this phone call, pretending to be the warden. I never heard such a nice, I've never heard the warden get on the phone with anyone. Especially someone like a visitor, maybe like a DA's office, but you think they're gonna be talking to all the parents of all the visitors who wanna talk to serial killers

and just being like, it's just a school field trip. It's gonna be right, it's gonna be fine, man. No, what the heck? They're busy being shady. They're busy making money off of prisoners. You think they want to talk to visitors, parents? Now, things were not gonna go as planned. At all. Okay, but Jason was confident. He knew that that wasn't the warden. He kind of guessed it. But the conditions would still be as explained. You're talking about that though. Of course there's gonna be glass between them, they're gonna be talking through a phone.

Like you see in all those TV shows. So he gets on a plane to Illinois. Now this is his first time traveling alone and he's only 18 years old. He's so freaking nervous. He knows that Gacy's attorney is gonna be meeting him there at the airport to drive into the hotel, check in and then drive him to the prison.

So the prison visits are gonna be spread out through three different days. Now, I don't know how death row visitor hours work, but apparently they're gonna be meaning for hours at a time, every single day. Now, this is where I need to put it quick disclaimer. There has been somewhat provable evidence that all of these letters and all of these phone

conversations have happened, right? Because other people have seen the evidence of, oh this is from John Wayne Gacy, this is handwriting, this is from the correctional's facility. The visit does happen. He does go to Illinois. He has pictures with John Wayne Gacy. He needs John Wayne Gacy. But we don't know what happens inside those prison walls. We don't know the truth. We don't know if they really sat behind a glass wall and just had the most mundane conversation of, do you like bagels or do you like croissants, right?

We don't know if that happened or if this happened. But this is Jason's account of everything. So he had packed all of his bags for this prison visit and he had closed for the next three days. He had a notebook of all of the information that he had given Gacy to kind of debrief himself on everything to make sure that his lies are still right, he had a notepad because he wanted to rush back to the motel, write down everything that he could remember in every single conversation for the couple of hours that he had spent with Gacy.

So he lands in St. Louis and he starts waiting for the lawyer to show up. Now he waits about 10 minutes and he's looking for someone, I don't know, that looks like a lawyer, right? But then he sees this guy waving at it. And he's this really short, somewhat overweight chain smoker, just some wreaked of cigarettes that seemed super nervous. Definitely not an attorney, right? And he's looking at him like, are you Ken? Yeah, I'm Ken.

So as they're walking out of the airport, he realized this is not an attorney. This is actually one of John Wayne Gacy's Aaron boys in Illinois. Crazy. I have Aaron boys. So he, it seemed like he's like a family friend. He would bring Gacy supplies, give him magazines, run errands for him. He loved the attention.

He loved telling all of his friends that he and Gacy are best friends, which really is not a flex at all, but whatever I guess so Jason really liked Ken until they got to the hotel because you know Ken tells the front desk service. Yeah, we're gonna need one room Now this shook up Jason because he already knew what that meant that Gacy probably wanted them to do something together So that Ken would report back and say like oh, oh, we did this and this and this, right? And so he freaks out and he says, no, no, no, no, my parents would be super pissed. They would never let me stay.

Like, I literally have to go back tomorrow. Like, I'd have to get on a plane tomorrow. No, no, no, I'm gonna pay for my own room. I thought you didn't have any money. My parents will pay for this room. My parents will pay for, they will never forgive me. And so he fought any fought and finally, he got a room of his own and paid for it.

And Ken straight up told him, you know it would be a lot easier if we stayed in the same room. That's the way that John wanted it. And then he just kind of shrugged. As if to imply, like, well, you said no, so I guess you're going to have to deal with John Wayne Gacy. So they get to the prison and it looks really intense. There's close to like 20 different guard towers.

Once they walk in, he's going to sign like 20 million different things. 20 million different waivers. The guards aren't held viable for your safety. The prison isn't held viable for your safety. Any question to one of the forums, he was like, what am I signing on this one? And the guard says, in the unlikely event, hostages are taken inside the prison,

we won't negotiate your release. If something happens in there, if there's a riot or an escape, you know, if we won't give an inmate as much as a pack of cigarettes for your release. Because if we did that, the prisoners would do it all the time. Love that, love that. So he's like, oh, cool. Okay, so where do I sign? So he like signs all these papers,

and he gets led by a guard down the hall. And the guard's like, yeah, get Gacy. He's got a visitor, you know, saying all this stuff and his heart's pounding, the whole place, like the visitor area smells like burnt coffee and like shitty cigarettes, just really nasty. And he asks the guard, like, do you feel safe working here with all these convicts?

And he's like, what? I mean, aren't you like afraid that you're gonna get attacked? Hmm, not really. If you treat them right, they'll treat you good. But if you treat them like shit, then you gotta expect trouble back. What do you mean by that? Well, there was a squad that we named Leaky.

We call him that now because he was dragged into a cell and he was stabbed 18 times in the chest in the stomach. Now he's kind of off his power trip. But we call him leaky. Oh, he's just stabbed in the cell. Oh, did he die? No, still life still works here, but he's nicer to everyone now. Just a little leaky. Just a little leaky, though. Oh, God! So finally the guard leads him to where Gacy's waiting and they open up the room and he sees Gacy and he's just wearing a pair of loose handcuffs. He's not shackled. There's you know a guard next to him and they get in. They close the door and the guards both step outside, lock the door and walk away. Now this room has no glass divide. They're in one room?

They're in the same room together, according to Jason Moss. And so he immediately screams out the little window of the door, right? He's like, um, hello, excuse me, where are you guys going? And they just look back at him and they shake their head and continue walking. Now, meanwhile, Gacy is just watching him laughing,

like just kind of giggling about this whole thing. Now, he's completely alone in this visiting room with John Wayne Gacy. So this is where people question it. Some people are saying this would never happen on death row with such a highly publicized serial killer. If anything happened to a visitor, which by the way, this visitor is the poster child for his victim M.O. Like this is, he's 18 years old, he's built, you know, this is, this is literally Gacy's

kryptonite, this is the type of victims that Gacy goes after. How would they let him have a visitor like this unsupervised without a glass divide? Do you know what could happen to this prison if something happened to Jason Moss? They would never risk it. That's what a lot of arguments are and then you have the other spectrum of people saying it's not the prison risking it. It's a couple of guards who are making money off of this risking it. Does that make sense? It's not like the warden is like, oh yeah, do it for sure. It's like three guards that are like, hey,

he's gonna pay us this much money. Let's just fucking make it happen. Make sure no one finds out. We're just gonna do it like this. So it's kind of up in the air. Could something like this even happen? We don't know. I do know that shit happens in prison

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Jason describes him to look like that weird uncle that you kind of put up with because I mean he's so annoying and almost a little bit creepy But he just means well, you know, like he's just kind of a jolly annoying uncle Like the one that like laughs too loud and thinks that he's funny. I'm like, oh, you're not funny But I know you're not trying to hurt me so fine. I'll laugh. It's kind of like that. His hair was perfectly combed back, and it was styled with just the super thick, slick oil, just so much oil in his hair. And then when they went to shake hands, the smell of John Wayne Gacy was nauseating.

Just all that baby oil that's in his hair and he had sprayed this just like thick cologne, like sickly sweet cologne all over himself and as they shake hands, you know, he's trying to look at it, look at him in the face and Gacy's just staring blatantly at Jason's crotch area. And he says nice to see you and starts caressing his index finger in like the inside of Jason's wrist. No. And they sit down in the corner of the room and it was perfectly laid out. Just two chairs so close to each other.

Not a table in between. Just felt so claustrophobic. And they sit down together. And it would just be impossible for Jason to like stay physically far away from this killer. Now there was a massive file folder labeled top secret case files on the ground. So this is John Wayne Gacy's top secret case files. This is like everything about his appeals, everything about his entire case, but he wrote

on it top secret case files. Super cool, super discreet. I think it's got like an air of mystery around it. Like, oh, is it a cookbook? Is it top secret case files? I don't know, which one. That's what's happening. Okay, so he's got that in the corner, and we later find out that it's filled with the autopsy results of every single victim, copy of all the appeals to the Supreme Court documents that, you know, said that Gacy was framed. Why does he have that there? I don't know. He just brings it with him everywhere. to the Supreme Court documents that, you know, said that Gacy was framed.

Why does he have that there? I don't know. He just brings it with him everywhere. Brings it from the cell to the visitor's room, and the security camera was pointed facing the wall throughout the whole experience. That's what Jason might say. Okay, is that security camera?

But it's been, you know, you can move it. Yeah. Now it's facing the wall. So they're out of you. It's facing, you know, you can move it. Yeah. Now it's facing the wall. So they're out of you. It's facing the wall. Yeah, so he's, he's a freaking out, right? And he realized that Gacy was really close with the guards during all of this. They had nicknames for each other.

He was probably paying them quite a bit. So at one point, you know, when they bring lunch over, he didn't like it. He'd just request something else. And the guards would scurry off as if they're waiters out of Michelin star restaurant Like oh my god, I'm so sorry not that they're prison guards for a death row inmate How long were they there? Why are they bringing lunch? Yeah, they would have lunch together for two days

So it dawned on him that he's alone in this locked unmonitored room with a serial rapist torture and serial killer. And, you know, John Wayne Gacy has strangled and killed many boys just like him. And Gacy's having the time of his life. He keeps saying, like, oh god, this is, this is perfect. I can't believe this. I can't believe I'm meeting you. Man. And the more nervous Jason was getting Gacy was just more at ease. So at first they start talking about these very mundane things. How's the weather? How's your flight, you know, did you and Ken become pet spuds? And he starts pulling out a stack of fan letters, interview requests from his

top secret case files. And he's saying things like, look at them. I told them all no. They want to they want to interview me. But I set aside three full days for you to spend with you. So then, Gacy gets up to the door to see where the guards are. He like pokes his head, you know, to try to see. And Jason's confused and scared, like, why is he looking for the guards?

So he continues looking at these fan mail, just like, oh, this one's cool. And now Gacy sits back down on his chair, but he's different now. He's sitting with his like legs spread and his chest is fully inflated, and he's staring intently at Jason. It was the most intense, powerful feeling of emptiness that he had ever felt. There was no warmth, there was no humanness in his eyes.

Just something about him staring at him felt feral. And he said, it was like a switch of personality. He said, you're here with me now, Jason. I brought you here. You'll do whatever I say. You know that, right? Are we clear about that? And he just said, yes.

And he starts running these scenarios and it says, Jason is like, okay, well, I'm bigger. I'm younger, I'm stronger. His hands are cuffed. I mean, I could probably try to like knock him out with this chair, right? But Gacy keeps saying, you know how weak you are, right, Jason? And he keeps saying, um, yeah, but can I see more stuff from your folder now and just trying to distract him?

And he says, you know, I could tell you to fuck off and you'd just have no one. What the hell would you do without me? And he started like inching closer to Jason. You know, if I was a bad guy, I'd tell the gobs what you do with your brother. They would take him away. And he starts touching his crotch non-stop,

John Wayne Gacy allegedly, during this whole conversation. And he would touching his crotch non-stop, John Wayne Gacy allegedly during this whole conversation. And he would say things like, you'd go to jail. Do you want to go to jail while he's like touching himself through the parents? And so for the next two hours, John Wayne Gacy just barrates him. Just non-stop. Like Like do you know how stupid you are? And at this point, I mean, he's just like whining. He's like, yes. And he said that he knew that he was trying to play a character, but he didn't know if he was playing that character anymore because like, what? And then all of a sudden, he's just like snapped out of it. He went from me like, do you know how stupid and worthless you are? So just fixing his posture and being like, yeah how's your flight?

Did you sit next to anyone interesting? I mean Jason thought he was going crazy. Like did I just freaking imagine all of that? What? Absolutely what is going on here, right? So then the food arrives. The guards bring the food into the visiting room. They start eating lunch.

Jason had no idea that they were going to eat lunch together. He had no idea that any of this was happening. He thought it was going to be like an hour between a glass wall, just asking him questions about the murders. The guard brings in two trays. It's got roast beef, applesauce, a glass of milk, an apple, and some bread. The roast beef was green, very tough, very smelly, he said.

And Gacy just immediately starts stuffing his face, and he's like, go on, Jason, eat. This is one of the best meals we get. I ordered it, special for you. And so he's like, okay on Jason, eat. This is one of the best meals we get. I ordered it, special for you. And so he's like, okay, well, maybe now he's in a good mood. Now's my chance to be FBI agent. So he starts trying to bring up the victims. Now, there was one victim, which if you guys

watch the podcast, you'll know more about, but he had had consensual sex with John Wayne Gacy and that next morning, he had made breakfast. Remember, and he had brought the knife in because he was just like cooking up the breakfast and trying to wake up John, like Gacy and be like, hey wake up, like I'm making breakfast, right? But he had brought the knife into the room,

and so Gacy, I don't know if he knew or didn't know, but he decided, oh, this is, he's trying to kill me, I gotta kill him first. So he ended up killing him, went out to the kitchen, realized motherfucker was just making breakfast for him. That's how he like, he said it so nonchalantly. Oh, he's just making breakfast for me. Oh shit, oops.

So he keeps bringing that up. He's like, well, I mean, you had to have known that he wasn't trying to kill you. It's not like he was just like holding it right next to your face or right next to his face. And he just kept saying, well, you shouldn't stand over someone holding a knife while they're sleeping. Let me tell you something Jason, you can tell when someone's dead because he shits all over the floor.

I mean the kids stunk up my place. I dropped him off in my cross space. So he's like, oh shit, this is like the first admission of guilt. But like side note, nothing's being recorded. Nobody's around. Nothing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So he's like, what? What do I do?

And he's like reeling from this information and, you know, Gacy's getting agitated by this. And he walks towards the door again and looks for the guards. And he's like getting scared. Jason's like, well, when are the guards going to come back? They promised that we could take a picture together. And sure enough, he switched again. And his whole personality changed, and Gacy said, the guards are on the other side of the bars.

You know how long it's going to take them to get here a few screens, probably two minutes? I could kill you if I want. You know that, don't you? I could get this pen, stick it right here in your neck, and you'll bleed to death all over the floor by the time you get any help. Um, I know, I know. He just keeps saying, I know, I know.

He just keeps saying, I know, I know. Thank you for not killing me. Because I mean, he just didn't know what to do. You know, I want to agitate him more. And he said, there's just something about it. There's something different from some rando saying on the street, like, hey, I could kill you. And someone like him saying it, like it just paralyzes you.

And he said, I have a special treat for you, Jason. And he reached down into his sock and pulled out a packet of baby oil. And he explained that he wanted to use it to sawdemise him. And he said, see that chair over there in the corner? That's where I would do it. They wouldn't find your body until all your blood ran on the floor. And he asked Jason to stand up. And he's like, why?

Well, I haven't seen your whole body since you got here. Let me just see. So Jason stands up and he quickly runs to the top secret case files that's back on the floor and he picks it up and sits immediately back down. And he starts kind of browsing through it. It's like, okay, maybe if I ignore him, he's gonna stop and he might get, you know, absorbed into this. So now, John Wayne Casey is standing behind him, looking over his shoulder at these case files and all of a sudden, there's hands on his neck.

And he gets dragged up out of his seat and pinned up against the wall and he's ready. I mean, at this moment, he's thinking about fighting back with all of his strength. I'm going to grab a chair. I'm going to kill him if I have to. And that's what he realizes that Jason's Gacy is not trying to kill him, not trying to strangle him, but is trying to kiss him.

So he breaks away and he sits back down. And now, you know, Gacy's mad. What's wrong, Jason? You need to relax. And he sits back down next to him and he says, you're so pretty. You little hustling bitch. Like someone who is like hustling people for money, I guess. And he was angry again and he was like saying very sexually aggressive things like you

wander the streets hustling. And Jason, I mean, he's just looking down the whole time, trying to like block it out, trying to just get through it. And when he looks up, he realized that somehow Gacy had taken out his genitals and was masturbating. And Gacy was allegedly saying things like, you sell your ass, you know, and starts describing how you can't pull that hustling shit on me and kept screaming at him to look at my,

you know, and he's like, did you look at it and he's screaming more and Jason had no idea what to say. So he just said, yes, it's very nice. And that is when, if this really happened, it's incredibly disturbing. And if it didn't happen, it's it's very nice and that is when if this really happened it's incredibly disturbing and if it didn't happen It's incredibly infuriating but allegedly at this point Gacy said do you know how many little shits died for this? What about his genitals? And so I mean he just keeps going telling him how he's going to like pee on him. So Jason just breaks down and absolute tears.

Just full on sobbing at this point. I mean, this was like not an act. Like he's just full on sobbing, saying, John, you said we were friends, why are you doing this to me? You know, and John just gays you look disgusted that he's crying. So he zipped up his pants and he said, then what the fuck are you doing here? Then just get out.

So by the end of this, I mean it was the end of their first visit and both of them were exhausted, frustrated, neither of them got what they wanted. And it's hard to imagine that there would be a second date of this. Like it doesn't make sense. But near the end of the visit, Gaze is super nice. He invites a garden to take several photos of them

and he secretly hands Jason bikini briefs that he pulled out of his own underwear, and a silver bracelet that he pulled out of his sock and said, can you wear both of these tomorrow? I also have a new painting for you tomorrow. So it gets back to the hotel and he's telling Ken everything, and Ken said, wait that doesn't make sense, he's been so good, like all of his attorneys have met with him, I've met with him, we had some family members meet and he's never done some crazy stuff like that. And it's like, well yeah, because nobody that fit his victim profile has ever walked in there.

So of course he's going to act like his John Wayne Gacy family man, a community member in front of all of these different people. So he's like, I want to go home, I want to go home. But for whatever reason Ken was like, hey, it's fine, I'm going to be there the second day, not the whole time, but I have to visit to make sure that John signs some papers. So I can check up on you guys, make sure nothing bad is happening. And I think there was a part of Jason that just didn't, he came this far. Maybe they're just needed one more day. Maybe he could think for a little bit and he could come up with how to question him about the murder. So you getting frustrated, you look so frustrated. So the second day, I don't think he ever got any close to anything.

So the second day he's, you know, Gacy is acting completely normal. Asking if Ken and Jason got along, he even said, did he try to fuck you? And he was like, no, oh, well, good. I told him to treat you like a son. And he was like, well, did you wear the things? He had the silver bracelet on. He lied about having the underwear on, but how was Gacy going to know, right? So they started off by going through the top secret case files, going through each of the autopsy results. And it was just like the strangest thing, because Gacy claimed that he didn't kill them. But at the same time, he said that they all

deserved to die anyway. Because of the types of lives that they lead, you know? Something was bound to happen. It wasn't me, but something was gonna happen. Even if I did kill them in this crazy fictional world that the court wants you to believe, it was all their fault. They went on to the streets, they hustled their asses, that's how they got fucked over. So then, you know, Jason's trying to play into it, he's like, well, John,

if it's not you, who killed these boys? And he says, well, we think it's a group of you know a group of guys probably drug related So he's like we as in me But like we we think the theory is and he was like well the state contends that I was the killer that I had all this anger and rage Shit, I had no time to kill anyone even if I wanted to I was running a $600,000 a year of business I didn't have time, but it doesn't matter anyway. Do you want to see the way that I supposedly killed these boys? What?

They said that I did something with a rope. You want to see the rope trick that they claimed that I did? Give me your wrist. So he gave him the wrist. He took the wrist where he has the silver bracelet that he told him to wear. And he stuck a pen underneath the bracelet and started

twisting the pen. And he said, I could have some fun. I really could. And then he starts grabbing Jason's hand and pulling it with his handcuffed hands to his crotch area. And he kept saying, do you remember what we talked about yesterday? And Jason's trying to like pull back his hand and saying things like, you mean about your case? And he's saying, you know what I'm talking about. And he started bringing it closer and he starts like fumbling to get his zipper open. And he's like tightening his hand on Jason's hand

because he has handcuffs on. He's trying to open his pants, but hold his hands. And his knuckles are turning white. And finally, Jason managed to break free from his grasp, his grasp, but now he's got his generals out. His face starts getting redder and he's yelling at Jason about these really vicious, brutal, sexual things that he wanted to do to Jason. But at this point, because Jason's about to have another mental breakdown, he's having

a hard time remaining, keeping his bond bond. Just starts yelling louder. It seems like the way to keep his bond bond is to yell louder about, I can't wait to R word you, like just really disgusting stuff, and start screaming at him to like take off his clothes. So he starts crying, and again, I think that this is why some people have a lot of doubts about this. Timing is everything he said around that time a guard came in. So he's like fumbling to put everything back on. Ken came in with the guards so he's here to sign some papers with Ken that Ken had brought and they had another death row

inmate with them. And Andrew Coco rallies and otherwise known as Coco. And this is a death row inmate that Gacy was friends with and he wanted he wanted Jason to spend time with this guy. Interviewed this guy for his school project or whatever he needed while Gacy worked on his paper that he needed to sign. Just so strange. So they're like sitting off to the side, which like,

again, it sounds crazy. There's two death row inmates. I don't know if this is supervised to this one, or if this one's not supervised, feels like a party, what's going on. Especially if you know Andrew's criminal history. So he belonged to a group called the Ripper Crew, the Chicago Rippers. And the leader was a man by the name of Robin Yetch. I don't know if I'm saying that right, but he was accused of molesting his own sister.

And they had Edward that was a part of the group, and the two brothers Thomas and Andrew were talking about Andrew. So they were super into Satanism, cannibalism, rape, necrophilia, serial killings, all of that. They are suspected to be responsible for the disappearances of 18 different women. Now these assaults were brutal. They would drive in their van, see a woman walking alone, snatch them off the street, sometimes in broad daylight, gang rape them, and in a lot of cases, the women's breasts were cut off. So they would eat, they would eat a piece of the breast that they had cut off, and Robin, the leader would place it into his box of breasts as a trophy. One of the members admitted to having seen at least 15 boobs in the box at once. One of the survivors would later tell the police that they had actually forced her to cut off her own breast. So as she was trying to cut off her own breast while she's

terrified for her life, you know, one of the guys got so crazy at the sight of this that they took over completely cut off her breast, masturbated into her wound, and then duct taped her wound closed and then they threw her out of the van. And she survived. So he's just like sitting in the room with this dude. What? And immediately when they sat down this guy is just rapid fire asking him questions like Jason. I heard you're in school. What is what is school like? Do you live in school? It's college, right? What's what's college like? What's campus like? And he's asking these rapid fire questions. So

Jason's like, wow, he wants to get to know me. So he starts describing, yeah, well, campus is like a couple miles from my house. No, I'm not home. And the guy doesn't seem like he's intrigued at all. So after further conversation, turns out Andrew has an incredibly distorted reality. He thought college was massive orgy feast.

You know, and just thought that he would talk about, oh yeah, college is great. Girls are walking around naked all the time. Because the only time that he's really seen college with context was in porn magazines and porn videos. What? So he has never really seen like a college campus or has experienced it, so he genuinely thought

that that's true, what these porn videos are true. So Jason, being the great, what these porn videos are true. So Jason, being the great talker, he is. So it's just like making up shit. He's like, yeah, whenever a guy sees a pretty grown on campus, he just walks up to her and announces to her everything that he wants to do with her. And it usually works.

And Andrew's getting excited. He's like, oh my god, could you send me some pictures of girls on campus? And he's like, yeah, totally. And he's just eating out of Jason's hand and Jason made a mental note to start correspondence with him. Because he was like, oh, this guy trusts me already. See, this doesn't even get anywhere, right?

Like he just want to develop a relationship with these killers for what? Okay, side note, I think it's kind of like Ken. I think... Ken? You know how I said Ken think it's kind of like Ken. I think. Ken? You know how I said Ken is the family friend of John Rengayce. Just wants to tell people their friends. I think he just wants to tell people that he's quote-unquote

interviewed serial killers, that he picked their minds, but I don't think that he did any of that. But is he telling anyone though? Oh, I guess he. He's saying no. Okay, but you're saying that Ken is trying to tell people Yeah, but Jason Jason is not telling anyone well Jason will tell people he will have like seminars on it Oh, okay like make it a mine hunters type shit type five

Type shit type five. So the last two hours with Casey now. I mean he's turning up the threats He keeps threatening you know now that they're alone. He keeps threatening Jason again. I'm going to turn you into the law enforcement because you're doing this stuff with your brother. You could go to jail, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was just, they keep crying and it was just so intense. And finally, the time is up. Now he keeps saying, well, it's okay. I'm going to see you tomorrow. I can't wait to see you tomorrow. So they say their goodbyes. Gasey gives him a painting, a signed photo of Gasey for his brother, I can imagine. And a copy of Question of Doubt,

which is a limited circulation manuscript that Gasey wrote, which is pretty much bullshit. It's like, hey, I'm Gasey, and I don't think that I should be executed. And he had no idea that Jason had no intention of coming back. So his idea, I think, that was maybe if this really did happen for the past two days. He is grooming this guy, conditioning Jason to feel like a compliant victim,

to feel like if he does do something, he's not going to tell a prison guard. He's not going to scream for help. He feels worthless. He feels like he needs Casey in his life. So I think that's what the first two days were about. And I think the third day, I think he might have forced him to do something if these conditions were true, if they had this room alone together. So on his way back to the hotel, he's just shookin' up.

He calls Gacy from the hotel that night and he says, I can't go. I can't go. Like my dad's in a bad mood. You know, he wants me back home. So when he gets home, I mean, he says that he's completely done with Gacy. I'm not doing this anymore, right? But Gacy is still calling him non-stop, threatening to turn him into the police,

also saying that he should visit him during summer break, which is confusing because he's about to be executed before then. But that's just how much Gacy believed that he wouldn't be executed. So when he gets home, he's hurt, he's confused, he's completely alone, he doesn't want to tell his parents. And when he gets home, he's hurt, he's confused, he's completely alone, he doesn't want to tell his parents. And when he gets home, he has letters waiting from him, from Manson, from Ramirez, from Henry Lee Lucas, and Elmer Wayne Henley, they finally wrote back, and he just didn't even bother opening them, because the threats of like, what if he does tell the cops? So finally, he feels like he has no option, but to tell his parents everything.

So he sits them down and he says, I did something really bad. I tried to keep talking to him, so I made up these lies and now he's right need to go to the police and they might take Jared away and I might go to prison and I don't know what to do. So they get him an attorney and make him sign an affidavit saying that all of these were works efficient. Fiction. So, I mean, it just tore his family apart. So this whole time he's just it just tore his family apart. So this whole time he's just trying to get his life together. He had broken up with his girlfriend neglecting that. He's neglect neglecting all of his friendships. He

lost his brother's trust, his schoolwork is suffering, so he's trying so hard to kind of build this back up, but at the same time he's getting so depressed. Because he was so happy to not be talking to these serial killers, but he missed the excitement that it brought to his life. I mean, without these letters, his life seemed so boring now. Now, after time passes, Gacy's execution was a media firestorm. Everyone was talking about it again. And the family invited all of the friends over. They put it on the TV.

They ordered pizza, chicken wings, to watch the execution. As like a final moment, he can't hurt us anymore or done with this chapter. Now years passed since he's cut off contact with most of these serial killers. He would actually go meet Henry Lee Lucas in prison later with his professor, oddly. So years passed, he has these regrets, he feels like it damaged his entire family and he has a lot of pain for what he did It was just too much. He still has nightmares about Gacy trying to kill him Sometimes it's Richard Ramirez's giant hands on him the smell of Gacy

He can't get it out of his head He wakes up suddenly in the middle of the night because it's dark in his room and he feels like one of these people are standing in the corner And he said that Gacy was right. He just couldn't escape him. So Jason Moss goes on to graduate from college and he does an internship with the Secret Service in Las Vegas. He actually meets the president and the wife when they're in town. And then he does another internship at the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms ATF.

When he went to meet Henry Lee Lucas in prison, he took his professor with him and the professor was actually amazed at how well he was handling himself. Now, to be fair, Henry Lee Lucas, a different relationship, I think, that they had. And he decides that he wants to study law, so he goes to the University of Michigan law, and he graduates, and he starts up his own criminal defense practice in Nevada,

and he gets married, and on June 6th,th 2006 he took his own life in his house with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. This book had already been released, they were actually in talks of turning it into a movie. He had a successful law practice, he had his family, and he took his life. Now the date caused a bunch of theories because I mean without the date you would think well so much has happened, a day caused a bunch of theories, because I mean, without the date, you would think, well, so much has happened. The decade has passed, there's school, there's work, there's stress, there's family life,

there's so much. I mean, this happened so long ago, but because of the date, people couldn't help but wonder, does this have anything to do with any of this? And his co-author, the professor, right, that helped him write this book. He mentioned that during the writing of all of these serial killers and the book, Jason

had done a lot of research into satanic rituals because of Richard Ramirez. And he said, and I quote, it struck me that he did it on that day. I wonder if that's a coincidence or if he planned to do it on that day for a reason. He wasn't particularly religious, but he got heavily into satanic stuff while doing the book. He studied it, but I thought he was just laughing it off. We talked recently, nothing seemed strange. In one of the letters that Gacy had written to Jason, Jason had um, fictionally talked about how he wanted to take his life because his dad was being so mean.

And Gacy wrote him, when the time comes, you'll know how to do it. In 2010, they made a movie out of the book called Dear Mr. Gacy wrote him, when the time comes, you'll know how to do it. In 2010, they made a movie out of the book called Dear Mr. Gacy. It's like a fictional movie I haven't watched it. I heard it's interesting. Now, there's some questions that remain, right? I think the biggest question is, how much of this is true? We do know that he met Gacy, but what if they met and they just were allowed one picture?

We know that he had letters and lots of recorded phone calls from Gacy and some of them were sexual in nature, but I mean, I think the biggest part of this was what happened when he went to visit him. And we don't know, we don't know. A lot of people have speculations about it because if this was anyone but a highly public death row inmate, maybe. But I mean,

the United States was always already made a mockery because John Wayne Gacy had a picture with the first lady. So you think that they would just let that happen again? I mean, I don't know, right? Especially when just like the perfect victim is visiting him. This doesn't make sense. So that's the main question. And then the next theory is, well, why did he even write to these people? Because it doesn't seem like he did it for the FBI. It doesn't seem like it at all. So the main theory, well, the first theory is maybe Jason was a serial killer in the making. Sounds crazy, but what if he's like reaching out to like learn about them? Maybe he idolizes them, but then realize, you know what, I'm not a serial killer. I

don't know. That's a theory. The second theory is maybe he genuinely was confused about his sexuality, and maybe he grew up reading true crime, and just in some weird, sick, twisted way, this was his opportunity to find out who he was. Maybe he genuinely felt like they wouldn't judge him versus somebody else. Theory number three is that he's just this really arrogant, privileged, sheltered dude who did not realize that he is no match to any of these people, that he didn't realize that he was in danger, inviting them into his life even if they are behind prison bars, like what the heck. And then another theory is that Jason just wanted to get a career for himself, you know,

whether that's with the FBI or whether that's with writing a book. Now the last chapter of the last victim, the book, Kaira puts Jason on a pedestal that he did this for a noble deed to try and find out more information on these people, but he just got a little bit into deep, that he was in overhead, over his head. He underestimated them. But it also went on to slam journalists and women who send pictures of themselves to these evil people, which I find to be super hypocritical. What? Yeah, it was just saying like it's because the world loves to talk about these types of people and they get all of this access to interviews and that's why more people at home will be like, maybe I should write to them. So I just, I mean, interviews and that's why more people at home will be like

maybe I should write to them. So I just I mean I think that's a good point but maybe not in this book. Yeah. It's like the worst what? And then like with the title of this book, now the controversy of the title of this book. There was a ton of controversy with this book. I browsed through Reddit threads. A lot of people say that it does seem like there was a deeper look into the psychology of these killers, meaning the sense of even though that they're behind bars, you've got a well-educated kid. You've got a smart kid with loving parents, you know?

I mean, he lives in a pretty average household. It's not the perfect family, but they're not abusive towards him. Anythings he can take them on. But even with just letters and phone calls, I mean, these killers know how to manipulate you and how to make you work for them and how to just trap you and isolate you. So some people think that it is deeper insight, but I think that I think we already knew that we didn't need proof of that.

Is it exploitation of these killers? That's what some people ask. Was he exploiting these killers and talking about their private conversations? I don't really think so. I do think that the title is where it's bad. I think in his own right, if everything in the book did happen, I think in his own right in his own life he is a victim of John Wayne Gacy, especially if these things are true.

However, in respect to the families of the 33 people who lost their lives, I would find it so difficult and almost insulting to those families to call him Gacy's last victim. Because he started out, he orchestrated it, you know, and I think most of Gacy's victims didn't seek it out, they had no idea. They didn't want this. They didn't know that he was an evil person. If anything, maybe they trusted him. Maybe they were snatched. I think he just kind of had a big ego. They think when I first started getting into true crime, and I'm like reading all these things, I'm like, ah, that's so fascinating. Maybe I could one day write to one of these people, like, what would that be? be like not in the sense of like

Oh, I can totally get out of information that nobody else has But in the sense of like this is this is insane. I would want to pick their brain Right, but now now I'm like disgusting. I don't want to pick their brain their brain should be picked by psychiatrist and psychologist And we should talk about it so we know what's going on in the world But not not to like write to the don't write to killers. Don't write to killers. Are you guys even writing to your parents on holidays? Did you send them a card on Mother's Day or a Father's Day? If you haven't done that, don't even think about writing to a prison. Okay, thank you. Let me know. What are your thoughts on this one. This one was a bit more of a rant versus a case

but I will be back on Wednesday with a very very intense case and I hope you guys enjoyed and I'll see you guys on Wednesday. Bye