Rotten Mango - #80: The 10 Year Old Killers (Case of James Bulger)

Episode Date: July 11, 2021

When 2-year-old James goes missing at the mall his mom is quick to start her frantic search. Within seconds he had disappeared into the crowd.  When the police arrive and show her the CCTV footage everyone is relieved. James had been lured out of the mall by two 10-year-old boys. Thank god it’s not some creepy old man.  Nobody had any clue that these 10-year-olds were planning a murder.  Full source notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to this week's mini-sode. Have you ever as a child been lost in a mall? You must have, right? Hasn't everyone? The sheer panic, the sweating, you start grabbing for anyone that looks remotely like your mom. Listen, every Korean woman was up for grabs when I was young. I was like, this is my mom now. And I would just try to follow them around and I would cry because why are you not my mom? Even as a woman in my 20s, I panic if I'm at the mall with anyone without my phone or if I lose sight of who I'm with, I start breathing faster, I start feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna, something's gonna happen to me, but that is nothing compared to when you're a child and you're lost in the mall I tried to look up the exact figure

I wonder if malls are a lot more dangerous than we think is it someone like Disneyland where we have these rose-tinted glasses When we look at these gathering places. Oh nothing bad ever happens at Disneyland. Nothing bad ever happens at a mall with a food court. What's that pizza place that every mall has? Oh, an auntie ends. There's no way anything bad happens. But I feel like it's actually hiding a dark secret. I feel like there's a mall conspiracy.

I couldn't look up the exact figure of how many children go missing in malls. I'm kidding, but this is a story of a two year old who goes missing out of mall for a brief second. The mom of this story was just like a vigilant caretaker, but he had escaped from her grasp and within four minutes he was led out of the mall by two people. So the mom, she's frantically searching every single store of this 100 plus store mall. Mall security gets involved. Police show up.

It, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it show up. It, you know, is to everyone's relief when they start checking the CCTV cameras, and they see that her two-year-old boy had been walking out of the mall hand in hand with two boys that looked no older than 13 years old. Oh, thank God. They're probably just playing video games somewhere. I mean, that's a little bit strange. Kids don't take other kids, but for any reason, maybe they just wanted to have a little

brother. Maybe they were just having fun. But the reality was, the two 10 year old boys had planned a murder. As always, show notes are available at RottenMangoPodcast.com, but there's two books we're going to talk about, okay? So the first book is called Every Mother's Nightmare by Mark Thomas. He had interviews with police detectives, family members. I mean, it's just a really meticulously researched thorough book, gives you the full ends and outs of

the trial, but it also shows the whole case from the press perspective too. Since this is such a huge case, it was fascinating to see how reporters and journalists were just involved in everything. It's fascinating. But if you ever read another book in your life and you love true crime, read, I Let Him Go by Denise Fergis. I have never been so affected by a book in my entire life. It is so real, it is so raw, the emotions are just there. I can't even explain to you how I felt when I finished because I think even to this day

I'm trying to understand how I feel. Is it the mother? It's the mother. And the title of the book is, I let him go. Damn. I mean, in so many true crime cases, we always say, I can't even imagine what the family went through, because we really can't, unless we, too, have been victims of crime, right? But this book really gives a raw, vulnerable perspective to what the family goes through when a crime takes place.

Denise is one of the strongest women I've ever read about. I know it sounds crazy because I don't even know her, but truly, if you have ever been interested in the James Bulgur case, which is one of my highly most requested cases, or you're interested in true crime at all, it would be a disservice if you did not read this book. This is the boy name of James? Yes. So, let's get into the story. Now, I mean, it's going to kind of revolve around Denise because she is a very important person in this whole story. Denise is the mom of James, who is the child that gets abducted from the mall, and she

had this huge family growing up. I mean, she was always surrounded by people. She was actually one of 13 siblings. They were all spread out, so there was about 25 years between the eldest and the youngest. Denise herself was the second youngest. So she's like at the bottom. And she was always just good with kids. From the get-go, ever since she herself was a kid because she's always watching her older

siblings, they get married. They have kids and now she's babysitting these kids. Denise in fact loved kids so much that it was a running joke in her family. She was caught waking up a baby on purpose. Like, you know how people are like, yes, I love when the baby is sleeping because they're not crying, but Denise wanted to take care of this child. Denise wanted to play with this child, so she was caught waking up a baby on purpose. And then she'd be like, oh, don't worry about it, guys.

I got it. And she would pick a scoop of the little baby from the crib and take care of this actual child. She loves children. Like her niece is in nephews anytime they came over. The joke was that if any baby woke up and Denise was inside the house, Denise was at it again. Just trying to hang out with this baby. That's what was happening. So Denise, when she's 18 years old, she meets a man by the name of Ralph Bulger. And I believe he was 20 at the time that they met. So they're relatively young, right?

But they fell in love. They were perfect for each other. They move in together. And almost immediately, Denise gets pregnant. I mean, this was her dream. She's always wanted kids. She grew up in a family with 13 siblings. You know, she's, this is her dream.

So everything's going smoothly. Checks into the hospital. Her water breaks. She's feeling those contraction. She's ready to scream. The pain is coming, but she's also so excited to meet her first child, who is going to be a daughter. They already have a name picked out, Kirstie. I mean, this is the best time of Denise's life. But as they are monitoring her, as they're monitoring Denise, one of the nurses just runs out of the room. Okay, that's a little weird.

Don't panic. Nothing serious. Maybe someone else in a different room is having a problem, right? Runs out, grabs a doctor. What's going on? They rush back in and the doctor tells her, I'm sorry, but your baby seems to be dead. Excuse me, what? I mean, Denise had gone to every single check out.

She was so paranoid about making sure that this pregnancy goes smoothly. What are you saying? Well, it's not definite, but it's likely that you will be giving birth to a dead baby. Okay, that doesn't make sense. I mean, everything was going so well. She was healthy. Okay, yeah, no, it's gonna be okay. So she's got it in her mind. I have to have hope. I'm just gonna push this baby out and she's gonna surprise everyone. She's gonna look at the doctors and say, Ha ha, look at you, you guys are fools because I'm here and I'm alive and I'm healthy, right? So she pushes and she pushes and she gives birth to this baby girl named Kirstie and the nurse says,

Oh my god, it's a girl. She's perfect. So Denise is thinking, oh thank god, my baby's alive, like my baby's healthy. Oh no, I didn't mean that she was alive. I'm so sorry. So Denise had a stillbirth. Denise realizes that she will be leaving the hospital without her baby. And I mean, the whole book goes into depth about the trauma of that. I mean, because your body, your body believes that there is a baby.

You still lactate, your body goes through the motions. You've got this crib set up at home. And I mean, there are so many times where I had to put this book down because I was uncontrollably sobbing. It's just insane. So then a little while later, Denise was pregnant again with a baby boy that she was gonna name James.

Now, of course, this entire pregnancy, she's anxious. She's so anxious, she's terrified. She's getting scans like every week She's calling the doctors nonstop to the point where she almost feels bad for the hospital But eventually the delivery goes smoothly and little baby James is born and he's got these beautiful blonde hair These beautiful blue eyes just the absolute cutest baby. Now because of her trauma, initially Denise just does not want James out of her sight. There's no way in hell that James is leaving her vicinity for even two seconds. She's a very overprotective mom. More than any mom would probably be as like a new mom. So James got this spunky side ever since he was born. He went through a phase where all he

did was cry. They would spend every second of every day together until he was two and a half years old. They had this really special bond. I mean, the routine every single day would be that they would all wake up together. They would wash up, eat breakfast. Denise would put little baby James into the stroller and walk to her mom's house. So she's in walking distance. Denise is in walking distance from her own mom and all of her other siblings would show up with their strollers and they would all hang out at grandma's house. So this is like just so family oriented. Everybody loved James. He was never grumpy. He was a ray of sunshine. I mean, he was like a little bit mischievous, right? But he was the type of kid that did not have enough hours in the day.

Wanted to do it all. Did everything with such enthusiasm that it just kind of rubs off on you. You know how when you're an adult you get a little bit jaded with life, but you hang out with this kid and you're just gonna be bouncing off the walls too. He's got this like energy. That's what everyone says about him. You could get him a Christmas present. He would have fun with his actual present that you got him and he would also spend hours in the box that that present came in. Just a positive kid. Everyone said that the parents did so well. He seemed like he was actually five years old, the way that he talked, the way that he was catching on to things, just the way that he carried himself, and he loved making people

laugh. If something made you laugh, he would do it over and over and over and over again because he just wanted you to be happy. He was at a funny side. So he got along with his one uncle who's a prankster in the family and their whole relationship between this uncle and James is pranking each other. So the uncle gets a new table one day. James is over there with all the other adults and he's like, Hey uncle, is that your new table? Yeah, why? Well, it's crap.

No, they don't, like they don't even know what to say because you're two. Where did you learn this word? This is insane. Why are you talking like you're 15? What is happening? So he was just full of life. Like, are you getting this picture of Baby James, right? So February 12th of 1993 rolls around.

It's a Friday. Everyone gets up. They're going through their regular routine. Denise, Ralph, and James, they start showering, they get breakfast together, and the three of them start walking to grandma's place with the stroller, no different from any other day. Now, Nicola is Denise's brother's fiance.

So like a student to be on, right? Student to be like an aunt for James, and she was babysitting another niece. So not her daughter, but yeah, it's a huge family. Okay, this is kind of important. So the niece's name is Vanessa, right? And so, Nikola is like, hey Denise, do you want to go to the strand with me to run errands?

Well, the strand is like this huge plaza. I think there's like 110 stores in there in Liverpool in the UK, right? And you can get a whole lot done there. I imagine it to be like an American mall with a target so that you can run some errands with like a discount store with some other clothing stores. They even have like a butcher shop in there. It's got five different entrances, different parking lots. I mean the place is massive. So Denise is thinking, well I do have a long list of errands to run. I mean I, I, now that I think about it, I probably could get it all done at this

strand. And now that I think about it even more, this is kind of a good idea because if James is alone with me, he's gonna be bouncing off the walls. I mean, he's two and a half years old, right? He's gonna be ready to- do this, do that! But if Vanessa's there, maybe they'll just kind of entertain each other? Maybe I'll be more efficient. So she starts getting her stuff ready. Doesn't want to make Nicola Vanessaelae, right? She had her hand on the stroller, and she thinks to herself, you don't need the stroller today. But maybe you do, this would be the first time to go out

without the stroller. So that would mean that I'd have to hold James' hand the whole time, and she's thinking about it having this moment, and Nicola says, oh, well, you shouldn't bring your stroller because by the time that we're done shopping, there's gonna be no room for it in the trunk. It's gonna be filled with all of our groceries and stuff. Okay, okay, yeah.

So this is something that Denise says that she keeps overthinking, over-analysing, what if she had brought the push chair? Would that have changed anything? So they get to the strand and the whole shopping, James and Vanessa, they're just so happy to be outside. The mall was rather busy since it is a Friday, but Denise was vigilant in making sure James was not straining far. She was always beside her. They were always holding on to each other's hands, and they had to be efficient. So the whole thing

is, you know, you've got this list, but the kids have a limit. They're going to be somewhat calm at first. They're just going to be enjoying stimulated by the environment, but then eventually they're gonna They're gonna be bored. They're gonna hit a wall of boredom and that is where the trouble starts They're gonna be bouncing off the walls. They're gonna be you know whining crying They're gonna want to go home so they're just slamming through these errands and finally they decide whoa Okay, last stop. Let's go to the butcher shop So all four of them walk in and this is a tiny shop So think like a individual little butcher shop not like a massive market or anything not filled with aisles

Probably just like a container and you go up to the butcher and you're like, oh, can I get this one? And they ring it up for you, right? So she's pointing at the pork chop So these are good. Can we get that one? James is happy. He's like, I'm so excited to go home They're holding hands Denise and James are holding hands. She gets to the counter and she's about to pay. And she looks at James and says, just stand right there by me, don't move, okay? Now again, this is a tiny, tiny shop.

So she lets go of his hand for a brief moment. She pays, takes out her card, puts it back in her wallet, and the minute that she closes that wallet. So I mean, how long is that? Maybe a couple seconds not even right? She looks down and James isn't there anymore. Oh my gosh. So she starts looking around. She sees Vanessa. She sees you know Nikola and she's like, where is he? Where is he? Oh, don't worry. I think he's just playing outside. So she runs outside. I mean into the busy more where she's frantically looking around trying to spot him. She has a 50-50 shot. That's what she keeps saying in the book

Either he ran left or he ran right. How would she know? So she turns left and she starts her frantic search every single face she saw She said have you seen my little boy? Have you seen my little boy? I mean she was hysterical wild goose chase someone said oh, yeah, like I found him He's on the second floor of this store. She's like running up the stairs, running up the escalators. Wait what? Oh the little boy that was missing? I think he's like two stories down. Just running back and forth. Nobody really took it seriously. Kids go missing in malls all the time and they don't actually go missing. They're just lost.

Yeah. So she rushes to the security section. they weren't even worried. They're like, oh, well, this is the first one of the day, considering it's a Friday, that seems like a calm day for us, right? So they're like, he's gonna turn up. We'll put a little bow low out, like, be on the lookout for the employees, right? But Denise, she's a sterical. This is her child. Okay, mall security, thank you so much, but this is my actual child. So she's running fr, up and down the stairs, screaming for James. At one point, she says a shop worker was like,

oh my God, you look so stressed out. Why don't you sit and have some coffee? Excuse me, what lady? Excuse me, what? I'm trying to sell some coffee, I'm not really. I get that you mean well, but what are you talking about? So finally, after 40 minutes, they call the police because James is yet to be found.

And even mall security things will 40 minutes is quite some time. Now the police start helping in the search. James is still nowhere to be found. Denise is freaking out. She pretty much goes from store to store. And she slowly sees each store, store, close for the night, turn off their lights, and that is when more panic, more hysteria is setting it, right? She's been there all day at this point.

Yeah, the shopping mall is empty, and they still haven't found James, and it became really clear to everyone that he was no longer in the mall. So the police bring in both the parents to question them, they have to eliminate them as suspects. How do we know that this isn't some big ruse? How do we know that you're not, you know, out of crazy mom, right? So they separate both the parents. Denise is being questioned in one room, Ralph and another, and Ralph is being asked crazy questions like, with Denise, your wife ever harmed James, you know? Are you sure she wouldn't? I mean, they had to, I guess. But when Ralph is finally reunited with Denise, he just run straight at her. And she thought to herself, this guy's going to hit me because our kid went missing on

my watch, right? But he just gives her the biggest, tightest hug instead. And the police start following all the initial leads. There had been a sighting of a sex offender at the mall the same day. So they start freaking out panic, okay? They go over, interview that sex offender. Believe, I believe they searched his house, right? But they didn't get anything. This guy did not take James. 100 police officers were out looking for James, including all of his family members. He's a huge family. Community members were rallying together. And people would always ask Denise if she feels guilty.

I think the title of this book is even so strong, right? And in the book she goes really in depth on this, but she says, you know, people always ask, do I, do I feel guilty for taking my eyes off of him even if it was for a second, letting his hand go? Of course I do. These aren't the words to describe how I feel every day. I was the one who let go of his hand.

I was there meant to protect him. Do you know what my biggest regret is that I didn't turn right instead of left? So basically he was to the right. If I had taken the right turn and gone around the corner, I would have seen James being led away just four short minutes after he left my side, trustingly holding hands with the boys who were about to murder him. Search party start forming. I mean, everyone was searching around the strand. Everyone was taking it seriously.

They knew that time was of the essence. They had to find James ASAP. Now, the police start combing through this CCTV footage. They said it was intense. I think they had to sit there so you have to go frame by frame. It's pretty grainy. There's a lot of movement. You have to make sure that you're not missing anything, right? You're looking for one part. It's like, where's Waldo? You also can't risk the fact that you glaze over a detail,

because time is of the essence. So they were just in this dark room, staring at a monitor, just sipping coffee like it was nobody's business, because they need to get to the bottom of it. So the strand, the whole mall has 16 cameras, but they don't always record. So they all rotate. Like, you know in those movies you see the security monitors and they're flipping from frame to frame like a different camera angle to a different camera angle. So that's how it records technically. What?

Yeah. They all just kind of rotate short bursts of each camera and you can see James in one of them at 3.39 pm. He has seen exiting the butcher shop and at 3.40 pm You see Denise frantically running out of the butcher shop looking for James one minute not even maybe Wow one minute They keep going through the frames. they see something else. 3.43 pm. It shows James holding hands with two people walking towards the center upper exit. All the tech was four minutes.

Four minutes from the butcher shop and now he was seen leaving the strand. When they showed Denise this, she said for the first time she felt relief. Because these two people that were holding James's hands They weren't pedophiles. They weren't these 50-year-old creepy men They weren't also like a shady looking woman who looked like they're gonna put up James for adoption and one of these black no They're probably no older than 13 years old They're kids So even the police they're sighing like a sigh of relief like, wow, this kind of explains things.

I mean, James wasn't learned away by a sex offender, a pedophile. These teenagers were probably hanging out with him. They're like, hey, you want to go to our tree house and play video games and eat chocolate and candy bars? They're probably in someone's house right now not watching the news, not seeing what's going on, just playing video games. They're eventually gonna, you know, tell their police, wait a minute. Oh, this is bad, mom, I messed up. Oh no, no, no, and their parents are gonna come forward and there's gonna be a light lecture for everyone involved. But at the end of the day, James would be reunited with Denise.

That was everyone's hope. So the police hold a press conference, super emotional. Denise gets there and she begged for whoever it was to bring her baby back. She didn't care about anything else. Just bring our baby back and she broke down. And it was such an emotional feeling for everyone that she had to be escorted from the press conference table. Have you ever had those moments where you go to a doctor's office?

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What are these kids doing with the two-year-old? Why did these kids take a two-year-old? Oh my God, these crazy kids. But a day passes and nobody has come forward. Well, that doesn't make sense. I mean, it's all over the news, especially in this local area and these kids are local, they've got to sense. I mean, it's all over the news, especially in this local area, and these kids are local. They've got to be.

Maybe they're scared. Maybe they left Baby James somewhere for someone else to find, so that they can act like, ah, I wasn't involved. Maybe they left him at a park and he's just shivering in the cold all night. Not knowing who to go to for help, not knowing how to call the police. Nothing. Denise never left the police station. They had a beg her to go home. They said, please, just go home. Call us anytime, okay? We'll

be here for you on the phone, but we need to get to work. So she goes home and she calls them every 15 minutes. So then they had a beg her to stop calling and said, we will let you know the first update that we get. I mean, she was going through it. I you have to read the book because I can't even explain to you what she was feeling. She couldn't eat, she couldn't sleep, couldn't even think because every second there were hundreds of cameras stationed right in front of the house waiting for her to come outside. Like think studio lights outside on the front lawn, just waiting. So what like everybody wants to get a piece of the news?

Yeah. And the way she describes it in the book is like they're waiting for that money shot. Whether that money shot is good news, bad news, Denise sat on her front lawn being hysterical. You know, what are they waiting for? They're just waiting for that. So she pretty much was a prisoner of her own house during this and a day passes and the phone rings and she jumps up. Hello?

We've got your little boy. What? What? Who is this? Where is my baby? We've got him. We've got your little boy. We've got him.

So she quickly realized that this was a prank call. And how disgusting is that? I mean, how did they know it was a prank call. And how disgusting is that? I mean, how did they know it was a prank call? Because they weren't answering any questions. It wasn't a ransom note. It was nothing. It was straight up a prank call. In the book, there's a lot of intimate accounts of what it feels like during these key crucial hours. And the emotions are so complex. She said that Denise said that she couldn't even lay on a mattress because the thought of feeling any sense of warmth or comfort while her child was out there

felt so inherently wrong. She just couldn't. And everyone kept telling her like, just sit down on the couch, she couldn't. Another day passes. Another press conference. I mean, the news, the media, the journalists, the press, the community, everyone was all over this case. How does a 2.5 year old boy just disappear from the mall and who are these kids that took

him? What do these kids want from him and why are they not coming forward to the police yet? Where are these kids parents? They must know if I saw my brother, I don't have a brother, what do you say my brother? If I saw my sister or you or anyone that I knew that I was personally like just an immediate family member on CCTV footage you would think that I would recognize right? So where are these kids parents? So Denise couldn't do it anymore. She just can't sit in this house with these press outside. She needs to do something. She needs to feel proactive. The police have no updates, so please can I just go searching for my child? So one of the officers says, okay fine, I will pick you up

and we'll drive around. You probably shouldn't be like out searching the woods or anything, but I will help you get some fresh air and we can be proactive together. So they start on this drive and the police radios and the officer. Very quickly, Denise only heard the first part and the radio comes in for the officer and says come back to the station immediately and turn your radio off. The police got that message right next to Denise. Yes, so she turned off her radio and Denise heard come back to the station immediately and her head was swirling.

She's like they found them. They found him didn't they? They found them. Yeah, the officer didn't they? They found them. Yeah, the officer wouldn't answer. She was so sure though, Denise was sure. They have found him, finally, oh my God. Like, she can't confirm it to me, but we're gonna pull up into that police station

and he's just gonna be sitting on a chair, crying, being like, mommy, you know? And I'm gonna be crying, I'm gonna hug him and there's gonna be these emotions. That's what's gonna happen. So right then, there, she's hoping for the best. Yeah, she's like, my baby's gonna be crying, I'm gonna hug him, and there's gonna be these emotions. That's what's gonna happen. So right then, there, she's hoping for the best. Yeah, she's like, my baby's gonna be there. So she gets into the station, and they wait half an hour,

and Denise is confused. Like, where is my baby? Like, what is going on? And she was expecting to see him just bouncing in through the door. And one of the detectives knelt down next to her, and just said, I'm sorry. She's like, what are you talking about?

Like, what are you sorry for? Why would you be sorry? We found him and it's not good news. And she said that she does not remember anything else. But the police who are interviewed for Mark Thomas' book and also Denise interviewed all the police officers again for her book as well. So these are really clear memories and clear recollections of everything. But she said that she woke up on the floor and the rest of the officers in the building,

even though they hadn't even heard the news from their superiors. They just knew because the scream that Denise had let out was a scream that you only hear from moms when you know that their heart has just been ripped apart. James was found dead. So it's Valentine's Day the day that they find out. And Ralph, the dad, he was found in a parking lot. His brother had come to tell him. He was out searching for James

and everyone thought that it's better for a family member to tell than the police. So they tell him and they rush him to the police station to be with Denise. Denise was said to be in a trance, and Ralph was just angry. He wanted to see them. He just kept telling the head detectives, who did it? Did you get them? What have they done?

Who are they? Did you catch them? Just give me five minutes with them because all I need is five minutes with them. I mean it's just pure full of hatred which like honestly how can you blame anyone? So a group of teenage boys, one 13 year old, one 14 year old, and two 15 year olds, they were hanging out by the local train tracks. Not really safe, but in like a small town you do kind of hang out by the local train tracks, right? And the police station is about a hundred yards away. So this is like a relatively, I mean, you would kind of consider it somewhat safe, right? So they see something on the tracks. It was just like a little doll, a baby doll maybe.

But when they get close, they realize this is a real baby. So they start screaming. They run for that police station. They all rush there. Now this is a different police station from the one that Denise is at. It's about three miles away. And they all rush out there, these officers come out and they see James' body laying on the tracks. And he had been hit by the train and severed into two pieces. Oh my God. I mean, immediately the police that had rushed to the scene, they knew that this was not an accident. This was not kids playing roughly,

and something went wrong so the kid said his body, but this was actual murder. This was cold blooded murder. James' clothing was removed from the waist down. There were bricks laid on top of him. Probably so the driver couldn't see his body. There was blood. There was drops of blood leading to James' body. It seemed that he had been placed here after. He had already had sustained extensive injuries. What we later find out

is that these two boys, these two ten year olds, had Lord James out of the butcher shop through them all. They had planned this. They wanted to bring James to the local canal right so they wanted to bring him to the local canal and convince this two year old baby look at your reflection and when James would kneel down to look and look at his reflection they would push him into the canal they would throw him in but that didn't work James didn't want to look into the canal he honestly just wanted to go back home to his mommy. He just kept screaming for his mommy. One of the boys decided I keep wanting to call them, I don't know what's what I should call them, these killers, these boys, right? So one of the killers

decided to pick up James and throw him on the ground in anger. I don't know frustration, pure evil. So now James had this injury on his head. And he kept saying, I just want my mommy, I just want my mommy. So they start leading him through the town at a total of, James, they forced James to walk over three miles that day. From the mall and eventually to the train tracks, they even stopped inside of stores. With James? They actually passed 38 different witnesses. What? Yeah, they passed a lot of people.

And oftentimes James was crying and you could see the wound on his forehead. But these little boys, these freaking killers, they were smart. They would pretend that James was their little brother. Oh, you're so annoying. Stop being whiny. I'm gonna tell mom. They would say this loudly and everyone would think, oh, these are the worst big brothers that ever existed on the planet, but again, you don't really think that they're murders. However, there are some questionable parts. There was a man who was driving, drove by the three, sought, looked in his rearview mirror, right?

And he sees that one of the boys had kicked two-year-old James in the rib cage. It wasn't the hardest kick in the world, but it was a kick. And he didn't stop, and he didn't report it. How was that information discovered then? They all came forward later. And I mean, it's one of those things where I guess maybe if the perpetrators were adults, you'd be like, what are you thinking? You crazy person.

How are you a functioning member of society? But I guess maybe because there are kids? The killer's even took James into two different shops. The shop owner saw James believe that he looked distressed, saw the wound on his head, and everyone was just under the impression that, oh, these are all just brothers. The two killers even ran into school friends.

They said, who's this? Why is he hurt? Oh, he fell. Where? Over there. Just being vague. That's my little brother, by the way. Oh, you didn't tell me, your brother.

Yeah, anyway, we gotta go. So they lead him up to the railway track, and they start throwing things at him. They threw bricks at his face, full-sized bricks, hit him with an iron bar, small stones, everything. They poured paint into his eyes, they threw blue paint all over him. They were, these are some of the most, and every time that they did that,

James would get back up and he would cry and ask for his parents, he is two years old. He's two years old. And they were ruthless, they stomped on his face. They would say things like, stay down you stupid baby, and they laid James down on the railroad tracks, and they put bricks on his head so that he couldn't move,

and bricks in front of him so that he would be hit by an oncoming train. The belief is that the killer sought that by putting James on this railroad track that the police would come there and be like, oh, this was totally an accident, right? Well, you're thinking, what about all that blunt force trauma? Well, these kids are 10.

Pathologists believe that James was dead before his body was hit by the train. The cause of death is suspected to be blunt force trauma to the head multiple head injuries. He was alive when he was placed on the tracks, it seems, but it seems that he had died before the train had hit him. And he had so many injuries. I mean, they couldn't pinpoint one fatal blow. He had 42 separate blows to the body. He had multiple skull fractures.

And it is believed that there was a sexual element to the crime. The killers had taken off his underpants and his pants. And you'll see why later. So there isn't like direct clear-cut evidence of like, oh, he was assaulted, right? But there is some weird stuff going on with these boys. Not James, but the two disgusting killers. So the community, after the murder, after they find James' body, I mean, every kid was on a leash, not even metaphorically. Like, at this point, everyone is going to the grocery store and kids are tied up on nylon leashes. It was like

an extension of like a mom's umbilical cord. That's what Mark Thomas says. It was intense in order for some people, some nasty people to feel better for themselves. They blamed Denise. Will she have been looking? Will she have done this? If she had done that? Oh she, she, what kind of mom does this? What is wrong with these people? I think that these people genuinely have never had children. And this is coming from someone who doesn't have a child. Because I just can't imagine another mom

who knows what it's like to have a kid and the craziness of it all. And Denise, there was nothing like that. Why do I feel like I can see some mom say these things? Why do I feel like there are people out there that that thinks these way? Like they just feel like that could never happen to them. I think it is a really evil way to make yourself feel better. Yeah. And it got so bad that there was a radio station that was talking about these allegations of like, well, if she had just paid attention, Denise's mother-in-law

called into the station. She was, I mean, she was so pissed. She said, you're wrong. She was overprotective if anything. These are the most caring parents in the world. Okay, they were just at the wrong place, at the wrong time, and you were wrong. And so people just start rallying together for James. Flowers by the hundreds, if not thousands, were left where James was found. found There were notes from other children according to Mark Thomas. There was this little teddy bear that was left with a note James This is my bedtime bear you can keep him now so you can have sweet dreams love Katie The family were receiving letters from the prime minister international citizens Bucking and palace sent letters to the family, everyone wanted to help. So Ralph's Big Brother, James.

Yeah, so James is the same name as his uncle James. So Ralph's Big Brother, James, decided to ID the body. Someone had to, it had to be family. Ralph really wanted to, but everyone begged him not to. You're just, yeah. So the uncle steps up to the table and he's like I'm a tough dude. I'm a taxi driver. I've seen some okay. I've seen some really bad stuff. Taxi driver see all of it. But

when he went to IUD James, he said that he was wrong. This would be a moment that would haunt him for the rest of his life. According to interviews with Mark Thomas, he said, I felt anger, real venom. If I could have gotten a hold of the ones that did it, I could even hear James talking, shouting for his dad while he was being hit. I could hear him saying, I'll get my dad on to you while they were slapping him around.

And ever since then, James' uncle started drinking heavily. He barely ate. He lost an alarming amount of weight. And he was just frustrated. He said that he saw James' face everywhere that he went. And he never really recovered from that. So the funeral comes around. It had to be closed casket.

And it seems like every single person involved. I'm sorry. At this point they haven't found the kids. No, it's crazy. But they will be found. Yeah. Okay. So at this point, every single person involved, it's just so much trauma. The police that found James' body, they limited the crime scene.

They didn't want all the officers there. Not just because, oh, we might, you know, miss some evidence or might get too hectic, but for the sheer fact of this was too intense of a crime scene. Even the funeral home, you know, the owner had sent most of their employees home because there's just, you will never recover from seeing something like this. So they had a closed casket funeral and the family asked that instead of flowers, everyone sent donations to Liverpool's children's hospital instead. About 1,500 people attended. Wow. Yeah, and I mean, insane. So after the funeral, this is when things really started getting

difficult. They're still looking for the killers. They're just trying to get justice and Denise's and Ralph's marriage starts falling apart. They were just grieving differently. That's kind of what it was. And the police they find new CCTV footage. Outside the mall on a street they see the same two boys with James and it looked like James was either getting dragged or they were swinging him by his arms. So they started enhancing this image. They sent it to like some of the top agencies in the UK to enhance the or they were swinging him by his arms. So they started enhancing this image. They sent it to like some of the top agencies in the UK to enhance the sh** out of it.

Witnesses start coming forward. A lot of them saw James and the two boys walking. They assumed that the boys were James's older brothers. But they have no idea who those boys are, so that doesn't really help. I mean, you would think that at this point it'd be easy to catch the killers. First of all, they're probably like, what, 13 years old? Later we find out that they're 10, but they're

CCTV footage. These are not adults that are capable of fleeing to a different city. These are children. They have schoolteachers. They have classmates. They have neighbors. They have uncles and aunts and moms and dads that have probably seen, oh, that looks like your jacket. Oh, that looks like you. The whole world knows about this case. They found James's body. How have they not found the killers yet? So the people do what they can do. They try to give witness statements. They try to give tips but they just keep laying flowers at the tracks and one of them was even a young ten-year-old who lived close by took flowers for James. And his name was

Robert Thompson. He was ten years old and he was one of James's murders. He left flowers at the team. I feel like I don't get this heated in cases. I'm sorry. So Robert Thompson, he was born in Liverpool and his mom's name is Ann, right? He's five of seven sons. She was married with the kid's mom's name is Ann, right? He's five of seven sons. She was married with the kids father, but one day, you know, when Robert was really young, the dad decides, I think that I'm going to have an affair. I think I'm going to have an affair with a woman that I meet on family vacation. So he just starts having this mistress and everyone in the family knew about it and the

wife knew about it and he would beat his wife and one day He's like, okay, I'm done leaves five pounds on the table for them five pounds five dollars and just walks out Just walks out And almost a week after that their house burned down in an accidental fire I mean it was a show right so they move into this tiny little house and now they've got no money They only have their single mom taking care of seven sons, that's a crazy house. Now is this the worst family to be in in the history of the world? Probably not.

Just keep that in mind, okay? Yes, we can feel so much sympathy. Yes we can. But this is not what I imagined to be breeding grounds for like a serial killer. So and the mom, she starts drinking every night, she would actually have booze under her pillow. Like she would have beer or, you know, vodka under her pillow, she would drink first thing in the morning, she would go out all the time, left her sons to take care of themselves,

and each other. And the boys decide, well if mom doesn't care, why don't we just start skipping school? So at this point, Robert was missing 49 out of 140 days of school. That's a lot. That's like a third of all your classes. It's insane. The whole neighborhood knew the kids. They were known as troublemakers for this reason.

They were just always skipping, being wild. They would also steal a bunch of stuff. Robert was so good at stealing. And at first of course, it's so sad because he probably is stealing things that they need. He's stealing food. He's stealing toys that he wants that his mom will never get in. But eventually it just grows and grows and almost like a habitual stealing.

Like he'll go to a store, steal so much, walk out, his entire pocket is stuffed with stolen items. He'll throw it out in a trash can and go to the next store. So I mean, this is problematic behavior. Something's going on, something needs to be addressed, right? Now the older brothers, they would also bully the younger ones. The older ones would actually get pissed at the younger brothers if they didn't skip school. If they didn't shoplift, they would pull knives out on the younger kids, it would lock them in closets. Later in life, two of the other older brothers would attempt suicide. I mean,

their life was not easy, but it wasn't the hardest. So eventually one by one, CPS starts taking custody of the kids, started with the two oldest. Now, the oldest in the house was named Arnold. He tried his best. I mean, he was probably the most responsible of the group. Try to get his brothers to go to school,

get into a huge fight with his mom one day, and just like hits him. So he's like, what, what am I doing this for? I am raising your kids because you're out there every night getting drunk like I'm not doing this anymore. He calls CPS on himself and gets placed into voluntary care. He just wanted a better life, right? Robert is now just kind of raining even more free. I feel like before all of his older brothers were taken away, he was still checked by them. He was still being bullied by them.

He wasn't like top dog, but now he's feeling like top dog, right? And he's got this younger brother named Simon. And he just loves bullying Simon. Just loves bullying his own little brother. Forces Simon to skip school, threatens to beat him up. I mean, just forces Simon to steal stuff with him. It was bad. I know that you probably feel this feeling,

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Through August 1st, 2021, you can get $20 off your first purchase of $100 or more at rothies.com slash mango. That's r-o-t-h-y-s dot com slash mango. Trust us, you don't want to miss this head to rothies.com slash mango to find your new favorites today. What's fascinating is that a lot of people in the area were interviewed by Mark Thomas and they said that yes, Robert was not a good kid. Let's be real. But he wasn't the worst kid in the area. That's for sure.

What does that mean? There were a lot of other kids that were causing a lot more trouble than Robert. Wow. And I don't think that this is saying ind defense of him, like this isn't saying, see, look, he's not that evil after all, it's saying like, oh, this kid really, yes, he did have a hard life. But that's not going to excuse anything later. Yeah, got it.

Then we have another boy by the name of John Venables. So he was actually born 10 days before Robert. And life was tough for him too. He was the second of three kids. His mom's name is Suzanne, and his dad is Neil, right? So the two parents, they were just on enough. They were together, they weren't together, they lived apart, they, you know, it was just hectic. There was just a lot, it wasn't a stable house. And both of John's other siblings, they had learning difficulties. They were placed in a special education school and a ton of kids,

bully John siblings. And John was really affected by this, like why are you bullying my siblings? I don't understand. And then they would turn around and bully John. Like you're just as weird as you're siblings. I mean a really, really ignorant group of people, right? So John at first he was okay in school, but gradually he starts getting alarming with the teachers. He starts, you know, sitting in his chair holding his desk, he would rock back and forth and just moan and make these very strange noises.

A lot of people suspected, maybe it's because he was ignored growing up. His two siblings took up most of his mom's time, so maybe John's doing this to get attention? That's a little weird. So the teachers like, well, John, why don't you come and sit in my desk instead because you're causing a distraction. You'd walk on over, sit there, and start banging his head on her desk over and over and over again. And if she told him to stop, he would start throwing, chucking things off her desk. Eventually it got so bad he would use his own body as a spin wheel and just like spin while slamming into the walls of the school, and that would start taking off these pictures and displays, just crashing them onto the ground. He cut himself with scissors, he cut holes in his socks, he threw things at kids, if he was sent out of class he would throw things down the hall, right?

Now one day the teacher catches John trying to choke another student with a ruler. I mean the dude, John was standing behind this poor kid holding a 12 inch ruler choking him until this baby was red in the face. So the teacher, two teachers in fact, had to reach and rip John off of this child. So they call him Susan and they're like, what's going on with this kid, right? And she says, I don't know. But he's abusive towards me in the house too. I don't know what to do.

I kind of want to send him to the school with my other kids, like they're in this special education school. I think that he's pretending like the rocking back and forth. This is what Susan said, and they speculate that he's doing this because that's something that his siblings did. So maybe he's trying to get attention. Maybe he thinks that if he has the same learning disability as his siblings, he'll get more attention.

Kind of makes sense. Yeah. Kids are quick on picking up patterns, right? Yeah. So he gets expelled from his current school, gets sent to a new one, and that is where he met Robert Thompson. And according to Mark Thomas' interviews, Robert and John were not the worst kids at this school. That's crazy, right? They were actually better than a lot of kids at this school. They both bonded because their dads were in and out of the picture. Their mom's drink. They were also a year older than their other classmates. They had both been held back.

They were bullied. So they just became best friends. So together they just were not a good match. So John who usually never skips school. The minute that he meets Robert starts skipping school. Skips like 50 days of the year, which is gnarly, that's insane. John starts acting out a lot more. He refuses to do work, would cause a scene, starts banging his head on the walls, flapping on the ground. The teacher said that it felt like Robert was the instigator for all the skipping. Whether it was John or Simon, his own brother, like Robert was just bullying people to skip school,

which is just so bizarre. But in terms of inside the classroom, John was the most challenging Robert was not a big trouble maker inside the class But they called him a liar and a manipulator with a kid like Robert They said even if you had all this evidence if you had proof of him doing something wrong He would lie his way out of it Meanwhile John he would kind of break down eventually and fess up with the truth. So a month before James goes missing, Simon's teacher, so this is Robert's little brother,

right? It gets called to the mall, the Strand. It's very interesting that they... Talk to the mall. Yeah, the Strand, the same mall, right? She gets called to the Strand and Simon's there just upset crying. She's like, what's going on? Robert punched me.

He kicked me. And him and his friend, not John, but a different friend, had left me stranded at the canal. Just left me. So he was just crying, making his way around, trying to find help. That's weird. Why did they do that?

So the day before James was abducted, John starts acting up in class. This was probably his worst day ever, the teacher said. He was acting so fidgety, like he was excited about something, couldn't sit still for two seconds. Meanwhile, Robert seemed normal. So these are all things of people debating, well, this seems premeditated. It seems like these two kids were planning something, whether it was hurting Robert's own

brother Simon, whether it was, what was John so excited about? What was going on? The police are still looking for the killers. That's when they get a very serious phone call. Very serious. Hello? I think that my son is one of the killers.

What? I can't bring him in because there's too much press around the police stations right now, but I saw my son come home Friday night. He said he went to the strand. And he got a little bit dirty. He was washing his coat in the sink with his mom and his grandma. So then I saw on the news that little boy went missing and you guys were looking for, well, I confronted him. I said, son, was I you? And he said, what are you talking about? I didn't go to the strand. I said, yes, you did. You told me you went to the strand and you were washing your coat.

Why were you washing your coat? So the place you're thinking, well the boy's dad had called them and what the super unusual seems super serious. Let's interview the kid ASAP. Get the coat, bring it in for testing, see what's going on. So they go in unmarked cars to this address, to escort the kid to the station, search the house. How this happened, I have no idea, but not too long after taking the boy away to be questioned, camera crew surround the house. Hundreds of people had gathered outside the house. And whose house is that? The rest of the family had to be escorted out of their own house for safety reasons. Jonathan and his parents were brought in to the police station. Dad was screaming at him like, tell the truth, you killed James, tell them the truth.

And the police are like, what the fork, dude? You can't say that. You can't influence your kid to confess to murder. We got a question hint. So the police questioned young Jonathan, and they quickly realized that he is not the murderer. What? They were even able to confirm that all of this stuff that the dad claimed happened

happened on Thursday. Teachers, students, employees at the mall confirmed that the day that he went to the Strand and he came home to wash his jacket was on a Thursday the day before. They run tests. Confirmed Jonathan Green had nothing to do with James' murder, but it was too late. The press is going wild. Community is outside the police station making sure justice gets served. They start interviewing neighbors of Jonathan Green.

And everyone says, oh yeah, I knew that that family was disgusting from the get-go. I knew at the minute that they moved in that they were no good people. The Green family had to move. Jonathan was traumatized. Later in an interview, he stated that he believed at one point that he killed James. Even though he knew he didn't. What's up with this dad? Like probably.

It was our dad. Yeah. So Jonathan Greensitt at this point, I mean, he was having nightmares, he was wetting the bed. It was just really bad. And it wasn't just bad for Jonathan Greene's family. It was really bad for James' family, because they thought, okay, it's over now. They've been caught. But that wasn't the truth. So not long after that, another call comes in. And police have to be careful now, because of what just happened. A woman calls in and says, hi, I'm a friend of the family.

There's a tenured and his name is John Venables. And on Friday, I saw him skipping school with a little boy named Robert Thompson. And I remember that John Venables had come home on Friday with some blue paint on his jacket. Did you guys say at the crime scene there was blue paint on James' body? And then I saw the CCTV footage and it reminds me of John. I don't know.

Maybe you can check it out. So they run John Venables in Robert Thompson's name, and they were just a lot younger than they had expected 10 years old. They had no history with the police, but some of their family members had. Either way, the police go to question and search both of the boys' houses. The police arrive at Robert Thompson's house and they said that he was tiny for his age. They were shocked. I mean, he was so small and his voice is so high pitched. I mean, I can see how some people might, if they don't know the full details of this case,

only listen to their little interrogation tape tape like 0.2 seconds and think, oh my god, he's only 10, right? But the police tell Robert, we have reason to believe that you might be involved in the death of James Bulger. I didn't kill him. Start sobbing, but the police notice that there's no tears. They bring him into the station. Other cops are searching the house and guess what? They find a coat with blue paint on it. So they bring that in as evidence. At John Venable's house, they tell John's mom Susan, hey, we're here because of the James

case, right? We're here. We need to question your son. And she said, you know what? I knew you'd be here. I told him that you wanted to see that I told him that the police were going to come because he had skipped school on Friday again. The cops are like, do you not understand that this is really serious? We are thinking that he had something to do with the murder of James. Yeah. And she's like, well, you guys tell them, okay? Skipping class, coming home with a coat full of paint. Oh my god, I told you the police are gonna come for you.

Excuse me, what coat full of paint? Over there, you wanna see it? She pulls out the coat. Does she know what's going on or she's just like kind of missing the whole point? I think she's like missing the whole point. She's like, this is the teaching moment. Yeah, I think like the way that Mark Thomas had interviewed these police officers, it seemed like the police officers were like, she genuinely has no idea.

Wow. Okay. So the police are like, well, let's bag that as evidence what the heck is going on. So they arrest John on suspicion of the abduction and murder of James Bulger. He starts crying, I don't want to go to prison, mom. I didn't kill the baby. And she's like, don't be silly, John. They're not going to send you to prison. They're just doing their job.

So she gets into the police car with them, goes to the police station, and the whole way there, John's already blaming Robert. You know, Robert Thompson, my friend, he's the one that you should speak to. He's always getting me in trouble that one, and at the station. So there are two different stations, right? They're keeping them apart. John and Robert. And they are having their DNA taken.

And when John's DNA is being taken, he asks the lady. Can you get fingerprints off skin? Well can you get skin under your nails if you drag a person? That's strange. What could I scare you questions for a 10-year-old to be asking? Yeah. So the police interviews, I mean they had to be done right. They knew that they could not mess it up for the trial. They could only have like 20 to 60 minute interviews at a time. They to ask the right questions make it simple the kids had to be comfortable so that nothing could bite them in the butt later Already it was clear John was gonna blame Robert and Robert was gonna blame John and the whole thing was eerie The police said that when they asked John do you want some lunch? He would say well, I really like this fried rice from this Chinese spot

Okay, we'll get you that and he would just smile at them. He'd be so excited for fried rice. So then the story starts emerging, the timeline. John was excited for school. He actually wanted to go to school on Friday because his mom had written a note to the teacher. Asking if the teacher could give the gerbals, the school gerbals, like a hamster, to John for the weekend. This used to be like a thing. Oh seriously? He would have to like rotate in weeks. It would be like a class pet.

So he had this written note he was so excited he was going to get the Jurbals for the weekend right away. But why am I scared for the? The Jurbals, yeah. Yeah, I'm scared for the Jurbals. But on his way, he runs into Robert, who's like, nah, forget the gerbil, let's go to the mall. So he skipped school with Robert. They go to the mall and they start shoplifting. They just did the most. They trashed stuff. They got kicked out of McDonald's. Shoplifted some more. Started kind of messing with an elderly woman.

So CCTV camera show that they were poking at the back of an elderly woman. She would turn around. They would run off and they would do it again and again and they were just, I mean, they were being those kids, right? And eventually, one of them, we suspect probably Robert said, let's grab a kid. Now, Robert's conversation with the police the whole time he's saying, no, I didn't do anything afterwards. You know, John just grabbed this kid and he was kidnapping him. He threw blue paint in his eye So the police asked why would John throw paint into James's eye? I don't know. I ran away from him then. You know, I ran away from John

What did baby James do? He sat on the floor Was he crying? Yeah, and I was crying too. Why were you crying Robert? Because he threw it in James' face, he could have blinded him! Oh, because you care so much. So then the only time that he really cried was when he said, I'm being blamed for murder. And he would say things like, go ask our teacher who's the worst of me and John and she'll tell you, John. John's interview, the main problem, was his mom Susan.

Just though any time John got close to saying anything, she'd say things like, it's okay, babe. I know that you would never do anything like that. And then he would stop. So the police are like, I mean, lady, I get it. You got to be in the room, but please just stay quiet, you know? So the next interview, Susan tells John straight up, just tell the police the truth, okay?

I don't care whatever the truth is, I still love you. And almost immediately he said, I did it, I killed him. What? And he starts sobbing. And he asks the police, what about his mom? Will you tell her I'm sorry? So he starts telling the police what happened that day. And they're in for a shocker because he says,

can I tell you about the other boy that we tried to take? Diane Power went to the strand. She was at the mall with her kids and she was about to check out when she saw these two kids, these two older boys talking to her baby son who's about like two years old, right? She's like, that's weird. Why are these kids talking to him? But probably not a big deal.

She keeps an eye on them and she heard one of these older boys saying, shall we take this one? And they were in the purse section. So she's thinking these kids are gonna steal a purse This is not the environment that I want my kids to be in. So she's like kids come on like let's go. Let's go. Let's go Let's go. She did not realize until later that these two boys were talking about her baby Oh my goodness And they were saying it as such a close range from the mom that's in the say. Shall we grab this one? Shall we take this one?

So she continues her shopping and while she's standing in line, she realizes that one of her boys had run off. She's like, oh gosh, she starts looking everywhere, nowhere screaming his name leaves the store and sees her baby's son walking towards the two boys. Like they were almost luring him in. So the two older boys, they would kind of run, look back, wait for the baby to catch up and then do it again. And babies love games like this, right?

I mean, I don't know, I don't have children, but I'm assuming they do. And Diane's son was just so happy. It was like a game. And she started shouting for her son, like, come on, what are you doing? And the two older boys turned around, looked so surprised to see her. And just kind of ran off. So she thought, okay, well, they were probably here with their parents. It was strange, but at the time she didn't know what to do.

I mean, what is she going to do? Tell them all security, call the police. But now she says that she is plagued with regrets. What if she had done something? She had no idea that these kids were killers. She just thought that they were troublemakers. John would later tell the police that they had plans for her, Diane's son. That they were going to lure him out into the busy street so that he gets hit by oncoming traffic.

How does 10-year-old have these type of thoughts? It's so scary. And the police looked at John and said, Well, Diane's power son might be the luckiest boy alive that day, huh? And John smiled at them and said, Yeah. The police pulled John's parents aside. Specifically John's dad, Neil.

And they just straight up tell him, You need to step up. Like, your wife does not need to be hearing this. This is her child, this is her son, moms take it very personal, right? You need to be in the interrogation room while your wife sits it out. So he's like, okay, sounds good. The police decide to take Susan out for a drive to get some fresh air because I think at this point, you know, they were sympathetic of the families because you can't really draw conclusions. You can't come to the conclusion of, well, this kid did this,

so you must be an abusive mom. But while they were driving, the police looked in the rear view mirror, and they were shocked. Susan was adjusting her makeup. What? Just bizarre. I think that she's a bizarre mom.

I don't know what else to say. I think she's a bizarre mom. And John's interview, the dad just shut down. Wouldn't even look at John. Wouldn't even respond to anything. Just there because a parent needed to be present. That was about it. John would get so frustrated that his dad wasn't comforting him. And would actually seek comfort from the police officer. And at one point John stood up, clenched his fist,

and was staring at his dad, and the police were scared that this kid was about to punch his own dad This kid was mad So after the arrest the initial court hearings I mean the public was outraged they called them boy a and boy B So their identities were hidden right, but they knew they knew that these were young boys They were pissed they showed up at the courthouse and they believed that the two killers were in the police van. So they start throwing bricks, they start throwing eggs, people were arrested, people were chanting, die, die, die, die, die! Which then caused a huge commotion in the sense of like, there was an online dialogue of, is this okay?

Is this okay for society to cheer on the death of more young kids if they are evil murders? You know, it just kind of made you look at society a little bit differently. Are we any better if we're full-fledged adults saying these things about kids? Probably not. So it was just a really weird situation. So the trial comes along. Both boys were now 11 years old and they both pled not guilty on all charges. John's parents were there. He would look at them but they refused to look back at him. During the trial it said by Mark Thomas that John looked nervous and Robert looked bored. And Ralph, James's dad, sees the killers for the first time in court.

Denise could not make it to the trial, she chose not to, or for majority of it because she was pregnant, which was the only thing getting her through. Denise in the book, she goes in depth on this and she has multiple kids after this, right? And she said that she didn't know why she was alive, but she got pregnant not on purpose and it felt like a gift from God. They wanted to give this baby a life of chance. so both parents they were still grieving but trying to welcome this baby into the world. On top of that, the public gave Denise to, can you imagine? They were saying things like, oh, I don't think it's too soon. She's trying to replace the hole in her heart and she said, and I quote according to the book, yes, it was very soon after James's death, but in all honesty,

if I hadn't been pregnant with Michael in those early months after James funeral, I wouldn't be here today. That baby became my lifeline. The trial was rough for the family, and it was even rougher because of the defendant's family members. At one point, the family of the accused, they were laughing while they passed by the family of James. What? So they weren't laughing at James' family.

They probably didn't even know that these are members of James' family, right? But what on earth is so funny and court right now? Even if someone had the best, even if Kevin Hart was in the courtroom, nothing is funny in a courtroom, especially when you're talking about the murder of a two-year-old. Yeah.

They were just shocked. The one, like the very few occasions that Denise came, the family would be laughing and telling jokes to the defendants before it would start, before court was in session. Denise saw the two boys and their shoulders were shaking, so she thought to herself finally, some emotion, they feel remorse, they're grieving, they're sobbing. But she realized that they were laughing. They were laughing at a joke that one of their family members had said. And she said, and I quote,

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the smoothness on that. At away travel dot com slash rotten. That's away travel dot com slash rotten. rotten. That's away. Travel.com slash rotten. Now the whole trial was about do these kids know better, you know? And I think it's very interesting because I think when you're 10 a lot can be, be excused, but I don't know. I feel like when I was 10 I know right from wrong and I know definitely murder is wrong. Yeah, torture murder. Torture murder. It's not an accidental murder that you hid from the cops. Like, oh, he fell off the tree house. And I panicked. I didn't know what to do.

No, this was deliberate. There were 42 separate blows to his body. And people were shocked. It seemed like Robert was cold and calculating the fact that he even went to put flowers down at the tribute. That seems like something like an adult killer would do to try to cover up the guilt. Why would you go back?

Exactly. That sounds so creepy. They found evidence of some of the weapons used that included a 22 pound metal bar. And they passed it around to the jury and they were just shocked. And it was like a trial of what ifs, that's what Mark Thomas says, all the witnesses they came forward to testify and they were just wrecked with guilt. So the jury found the boys guilty. Don't let out, don't let out, because it gets so bad from here, it gets even worse.

The judge said this, the killing of James Bulger was an act of unparalleled evil and barbarity. This child of two was taken from his mother on a journey of over two miles and then on a railway line battered to death without mercy. Then his body was placed across the railway line so that it would be run over by a train in attempt to conceal the murder. In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked. The sentence that I pass upon you both is that you should be detained during her majesty's pleasure, in such a place and under such conditions as the Secretary of State may now decide.

So everyone was relieved. I mean, the sounds like the judges are going to sentence them to a really hefty duty sentence. They were expected to be locked up for at least 20 years. That would be like their first parole hearing, right? So they would be what? 31 years old. But still, probably not enough time in a lot of people's eyes, but that is good. The community would be like, okay, this kind of makes sense.

Yeah. The sentence makes sense. A family member, Denise's brother, finally, he was so good during the entire trial. Never caused a scene which honestly could you blame him if he did. But when that verdict came, he looked at the two kids and he said, how do you feel now, you little bastards? And the judge said this regarding the kid's families. How it came that two normal boys of average intelligence

committed this terrible crime is very hard to comprehend. But it is not for me to pass judgment on their upbringing, but I suspect that exposure to violent video may be part of the explanation. In fairness to Mrs. Thompson, Mr. and Mrs. Venables, it is very much to their credit that during the police interviews they used every effort to get their sons to tell the truth. Now, John's parents were upset. They felt shame for what John did, said it was just a nightmare,

you know, how do they even think to himself, how could you do such a thing? But they all said, well, I know why? Because he's weak, and he did it to be liked and loved to have friends. He got involved with the wrong person, So they too blamed it all on Robert Thompson. They're like, what are you talking about? There's no violence in our house. There's nothing strange in our house. We don't even let John watch scary movies. Robert's mom and on the other hand, she was gnarly. She went on interview saying that Robert is innocent. She blamed the school. She blamed the social workers, the police, her community. She blamed John. She blamed everyone so that they were all plotting to take her son down for this.

What I really think is that Robert was scared of John. John was the one that influenced Robert. The neighbors were always after us, for whatever reason. And she says this, which honestly you just want to be like, maybe that's a personal problem. She said name one family in the area who would have a good word for us. Things would go missing from the washing lines and people would say, well, it's the Thom Sins. I'm not saying we're innocent, but we get blamed for things we didn't do.

So according to Mark Thomson's book, James' whole family, they said, I blame the parents, but it's mainly them. The parents did not tell them to skip school. They didn't tell them to go out and kill someone. Broken homes are no excuse. There are a lot of kids stuck in homes that come out, run away at age 16, they get on with their lives. They don't go and do something like that. These kids had every intention of going out to do it.

They knew what they were doing. I blame the parents, but I blame them more. They were even talks about how it must have been so traumatizing for these two 10-year-olds to be subjected to a court like this. What in the world? And Denise had this to say, it seemed that there were a lot of measures in place to make things as easy as possible for them. For me, it felt like an over-concerned for their feelings and I have never understood or have really been able to deal with. My baby's comfort was of no concern to them as they dragged him to his death and away from his mommy.

So it followed that theirs would be of no interest to me. Denise's enrolf's marriage soon ended. And they would both remarry. Denise married a man by the name of Stuart who stood by her during every step of every probation hearing just wonderful. They have children together as well, and Denise is amazing. She never shies from telling her boys the truth of what happened to James, wants them to be comfortable and open enough to ask her questions. And then, after serving eight years and four months, the killers were released on Friday, June 22nd, 2001. Do you want to know the sick irony of this all? They weren't in prison. They were in more like a hotel, a little institution. They had their own room. They had a TV in their room,

video games. They had a one-on-one tutor, a world-class education. Something that they would have never gotten in their hometown. What? If they hadn't committed this crime. They got clothing allowances. They were allowed out. Within one year of their sentence, they went out shopping, they went swimming, they went to football games. Where were they? Why? How? Because they were in like a rehabilitation center.

It's suspected that it cost taxpayers like 3,000 pounds a week per person. Holy cow. So they lived better there. They lived. This was an upgrade from their lives. It sounds so sick and twisted to say, but it seems like they were rewarded. The reason that they were released, you ask? Well, when they turned 19, they would be transferred to a young offender jail, which would not be cozy like this.

And then when they're 21, they'd be, you know, transferred to a real jail with real adults. And the judge felt like, well, them going to prison, being exposed to these hardened criminals, meanwhile their murderers set back all the good rehab that they did in the past eight years. So they were released. And this is what Denise had to say about it. It had been decided that eight years was all my baby's life was worth. That wasn't even a year for every hour his severed body had laying on the track. It was nothing. It was a disgrace. There were a lot of rumors though because people were confused. Have

they been rehabilitated? How does that make sense? But there were rumors that the two boys during their time inside that they had not changed. They had violently assaulted other inmates. I don't know if these are truth. These are allegations. Okay. One of them had like a strange sexual affair with one of the employees. Here are the worst parts. This is the worst part of their release. Their evaluations weren't going to be released. So you know how we have killers. We have their psyche valves that are released so that we're kind of like, okay, well, this is what they were diagnosed with. This is what was going on.

Not as an excuse, but maybe it explains something a little. So you wouldn't really know what had happened. You wouldn't really know, okay, like this is what was going on in their head, which is okay fine. But they would have completely new identities. The government was granting them life of anonymity. They were getting new birth certificates, new passports, new IDs, if a police officer,

if a regular police officer pulled them over for a crime, they would have no idea who this person is. They would look at their ID and say, oh, you don't have a criminal history. They looked different. It was scary. Because they're what, like 18 years old, they were in jail at 11.

No picture has been published in press and media. Actually, a handful of people have been arrested. Citizens, because they tried to publish pictures of them now. Like on Facebook, just warning their community, hey, they live amongst us. Citizens have been arrested, not like major news publications. But if they do commit something serious one day can they oh they do just wait no So they're gonna have new identities which by the way this costs a lot of taxpayer money like you don't just yeah It seems like oh well the government's giving it to you

But like the taxpayer money of like creating this new identity a new social security or whatever they have in the UK That's really not simple. That's probably you're talking about like a hundred thousand pounds. Something gnarly. Yeah, it's not simple. So if you find out who they are, post anything about them, you will be sent to jail. A citizen, a newspaper, doesn't matter who you are. Does not matter.

Even if you just post it to your neighborhood Facebook community, because you're like, hey, I'm scared, you will be sent to jail and multiple people have been sent to jail. Who are we protecting here? And Denise is terrified for this because she fought tooth and nail to not have them released. They might hate her. They might want revenge. They might blame her. And they know everything about her.

They know where to find her. They know where her kids are. but she was not allowed to know one single thing about them, not even their names. Oh my god, that's the trauma you just have to live with. The paranoia, the anxiety, this is literally revictimizing people like what is going on. So Denise and also, just a side note, she is not a mean person and you cannot blame her even if she did feel this way but she doesn't. She doesn't want them to get the death sentence.

She doesn't want them, probably not even in jail for the rest of their lives. She just wants them to serve enough time for them to understand that her baby's life mattered. That's it for them to know, okay, yeah, I deserved this. But this just wasn't enough time. She felt and she was bright. So after John Venables was released with a new identity, within nine years, he was arrested. For guess what?

For child pornography. He was sentenced to two years in prison. And he was paroled within a year. How is this possible? This is his second crime against children. Denise wants to talk to a judge. John would see her face during this video call with a judge, but she can't see his. John would be able to read her appeal for parole, but she couldn't even know anything about

him. What is going on? The court's main priority felt like it was protecting john yeah what what why are they protecting john like why i mean it to be fair i think there are a lot of people not with denys is encouragement she said no violence should ever be you know done in the name of james because he would never right but a lot of people in the u.k. i think would do something

but i i still do not even mean it's- Yeah, I just so messed up. So Denise is saying isn't it obvious that he's not fixed when he has child pornography? It's not like he was arrested because he got into a bar fight, which by the way he was arrested for a bar fight and for drug charges too. But you know, child pornography, this this is he's not rehabbed So he gets released after a year eight years after that. He's re-arrested This would be his third arrest for crimes against children

He was 35 years old a huge collection of child pornography on his computer. This is the second time of the Yet over a thousand pictures a ton of them were babies, male babies, and toddlers. He had a manual on his computer that says how to have sex with small children safely, a pedophile manual. He had 400 pictures that were classified as class A child pornography. Class A child pornography is rape. He had shared it with people. And he was sentenced to 40 months in prison. So James's dad had tried to beg the judge to lift anonymity in 2019, because I mean this guy has not rehabilitated. Now he is an adult and adults have consequences. And sure, maybe it's not the longest jail time in the world,

which honestly it should be, but it's the consequences of committing these crimes. Like you need to, like that's why society works the way it works. Like if you commit a crime, you've got to deal with the community consequences. Does that make sense? Like just release this freaking name. And he is terrorizing people.

Like he's, this is disgusting. But he was shut down by the judge and he also have like I think two different new identities because he kept telling people who he was that's crazy it's like okay you commit this nasty nasty crime and then their worry is oh let's protect him yeah because people hate him so much he did did something so nasty. Let's protect him. Yeah At one point I believe the UK wanted to send him to either Canada or New Zealand because it would be better Easier for them to less costly For them to protect the identity

But New Zealand like shut it down. They're like, no, thank you. But goodbye It's that that Robert has not reoffended, but that doesn't really mean anything. And does the story on there know? Because Denise had stalkers. She had a woman on Facebook messaging her, pretending to be the killer, and then also pretending to be James' ghost. People were arrested for exposing the two killers. Just really bad.

I'm going to end it with this one. This is a quote from Denise's book. And I think that this really goes to show that I know that I can't blame people because I am one of the most non-confrontational idiots that has ever walked this planet. But the fact that there were that many people, we just need to be a lot more

vigilant as humans now. And she said 240 seconds was all it took for them to lure James away from me and get him out of the shopping center. 240 seconds. And that is the story. This has been highly requested and this is a heavy case. I hope you guys are doing okay. But really, if you guys have the time, check out the book. You will be emotional

grab some tissues, but it's just worth every read. And I hope you guys enjoyed and I will see you guys Wednesday for the main episode. Bye! Stay for the main episode. Bye!