Rotten Mango - #82: The Ballroom Murders (Case of John List)

Episode Date: July 18, 2021

Wanda was reading a tabloid of “The Perfect Crime.” She couldn’t believe it - how does a family man just viciously murder his entire family in their 19 bedroom mansion? And the worst part is he got away with it and has been on the run for 18 years. At that moment she looked up and saw the killer. Staring back at her. Only it wasn’t John List. It was her new neighbor… or was it? Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to this week's mini-sode. I'm just going to drop you right into a very nosy neighbor. Her name is Wanda and she was a bit nosy. She knew that, everybody that loved her knew that, even her neighbors knew that. I mean, she was a woman that meant really well. She doesn't want to see anyone get hurt, but she asked a ton of questions. She wanted to know what everybody's business on the block was. She was like in her 60s, she was one of those spunky women. So when she sees her young neighbor by the name of Dolores, moving in boxes. Dolores! What's going on? Are you moving out? Oh, no, one time, my fiance is moving in.

He's just moving in his stuff, but he's going to be moving in in a couple of weeks. Fiancé, you're engaged. Oh, wow. Wanda kind of walks back to her place, a little bit disappointed. I mean, she usually knows everything. How did something like this slip? That doesn't make any sense. She shouldn't even know Dolores had a boyfriend, let alone a fiance. Wanda's letting her game go. Come on Wanda, get with it. So finally, after weeks, a man by the name of Robert Clark moves into Dolores' unit.

He was tall, nicely dressed, almost always wearing a suit and tie. Just a proper man, a little bit shy, a little bit quiet, but incredibly sweet, right? Wanda even felt a little bit bad for the guy because Dolores started opening up to Wanda and telling her, you know, I just don't think I'm as into him as he is into me. So Wanda being the good neighbor, she just wanted to help this relationship.

It was his birthday recently, right? So she's like, hey Robert, how old did you say that you were turning? 55, why? Oh. 55 that you were turning? 55. Why? Oh! 55. You don't look 55. Oh well, thank you Wanda, you're so sweet.

But Wanda didn't mean it like that. Robert looked a lot older than his age. He looked a lot older than 55. Didn't you say Wanda's 60? Yeah. So you know, Wanda's like, what's going on? Dolores mentioned that you were married before. Robert, what happened there? What happened to your first wife?

Was it a divorce? Does she hate you? Or you paying child support? What's going on? I want to know the tea for Delores. And he just says so. She had tragically died. It was an illness.

Did you guys have kids? No. No children. But I got to go Wanda. And he leaves. She doesn't think much of it. A couple weeks later, she decides she's going to distract herself No, no children, but I gotta go Wanda. Any leaves. She doesn't think much of it. A couple weeks later, she decides she's gonna distract herself in another way.

She goes to the grocery store, starts scanning through the tabloids, and she picks one up. Weekly world news, and on the cover, it said, The Perfect Crime. This is juicy, this is right up on the zalley. She checks it out, goes home, gets her cup of tea ready, she's gonna enjoy it. Just read it word for word. How a man in New Jersey became a mass murder and has been on the run for over 16 years. The perfect crime!

And the crime was bizarre. Wanda was glued to this. A man named John List had murdered his entire family, his wife, his three kids, and even his own mom. But get this. In their 19 bedroom mansion, he put their dead bodies into sleeping bags in their ballroom. And he just packed up and left. A strange person.

Neighbors said that when even when he mowed his lawn, he would do it in a suit and tie. Sometimes even a tuxedo. He's mowing his lawn. It could be the middle of the heat, summer. Mowing his lawn in a tuxedo. And they even included a picture of John List and Wanda looks at it and looks up through her window. And she sees John List.

Only it's not. It's her new neighbor, Robert Clark. Or is it? As always, full source notes are available at rottenmangopodcast.com, but you guys already know the drill. There's a book that I'm obsessed that's on this case and it's called Death Set-Ins by Mr. Joe Sharky. Okay, so you guys know that if you listen to the other one where I did about the FBI agent with the body and his trunk, right? That was a book on that case written by Mr. Joe Sharky and he is so good. He's one of those authors where every time you read a book of his you're just trying to scan for the next one like hello when are you releasing another one sir

I don't mean to be annoying or antsy, but like come on you need to feed us more words such a good book I know that Johnless case is super famous. I thought okay Well, I'm gonna read this book. I'm gonna get the same details over and over again But really it is the best deep dive on this case, gives you so it almost transports you into that 19 room Victorian mansion and you feel everything. There is so much detail, so much information, he also did a ton of interviews, so go check out the book. Well let's get back into the story.

Who is this Johnless person? So Johnless was born in Bay City, Michigan to a John Frederick list and Alma Marie list Now even his parents get together was a little bit interesting his dad is 64 years old when his mom was 38 So there's a 26 year age gap Alma the mom was actually the living nurse to take care of John Frederick's first wife when she was diagnosed with cancer and then she died then they got married a year later I don't know how to feel about this, but this is exactly what they said. And they were very interesting. They forced him to sleep on a couch like he had no privacy growing up. John List could do nothing without his parents knowing. He had no room of his own. And even if he was going to church, if he was going to school, he would

have to pack up everything on that couch, fold up the blankets, get all of his belongings, put it into a box and put it into the cubby. It almost seems like they didn't even have a kid. So they weren't living in a 19-room mansion yet? No. But even then, I mean, they had enough money and enough space to support this child, but they just wanted it to look like he didn't exist. The dad? Yeah, so according to the book, he was just always blending in.

That's like how everyone remembers him for most of his life. You wouldn't even know that he lived there, or anywhere, just someone who disappeared into the crowd. John's dad only called him the boy. Maybe that's why he got a 19 room. To be noticed. Huh, okay. Right. So, you know, he'd be like the boy. Did you feed the boy? That's how he would talk about his own son with his wife.

What kind of behavior is that? It's just really detached bizarre behavior. And they expected Johnless to be smart, useful, but not make a scene. So it's like they want him to be useful, but not be a child. Like don't cause a nuisance. Don't scream, don't cry, don't ask for food. Be useful. Make yourself useful. Don't take up dad's precious time, and all of them were super religious. Went to a Lutheran church every single like, I want to say like they went multiple times a week, okay? They would read the Bible every single day. Just a little side note, none of this has anything to do with religion. It's just part of the story, right? They hated Halloween so much because it was the most satanic thing since the Salem

Which trials, right? The list they never gave out candy. They just didn't like it. It wasn't that they were cheap or that they didn't enjoy. They weren't dentist or anything. Have you guys ever been to a dentist during Halloween? And they always give you like a packet of floss with the skittles and you're like, this is, I'm never gonna. Yeah, there was a dentist in my neighborhood growing up. Always gave out packets of floss. You did it in, um, egg came a little bit. No, because you always gave out packets of floss. You did an egg came a little bit? No, because he always gave out candy as well. So it was like candy with some floss.

Oh, okay. But as a kid, you just still think that's a little weird. Oh. You're still like, that's a little strange, sir. What's going on? So he's not the type to even, you know, be against candy. He just did not like Halloween. It was satanic.

So the kids get fed up that year. They decide we're going to Ding Dong Ditch until this old man comes out and gives us Candy, gives us something, even a reaction. So that's what the kids keep doing for like an hour straight. So finally, Mr. List busts out of the house and starts running towards them, violently, aggressively, just yelling things at them. I don't think he was cursing because they were so against that. But probably saying some weird stuff, okay? Now it was so bad that some of the kids' parents thought about pressing charges.

He almost got arrested, the dad. But they decided against it, and instead the rest of the kids would just bully John for it. What's wrong with your dad? What's wrong with your family? Trick or treat, Johnny. What's- are you scared of Halloween? Are you a little Halloweeny? Is that a real thing? Yeah, I just came up with it. If his mom had known about it, she probably would have done something because John was the apple of her eye. Like truly, uh, really intense relationship. He would forever be known as a mom's boy by every person in his life. She just did not want him to do anything. Don't do that, you might catch a cold. Don't do that.

Oh my god, you might hurt yourself. Or don't do that. Dress him to the tea and they would go round town together. They would sit and have these little picnics where they would read the Bible together, like go on these little mommy and meudates. But he was never allowed to have friends of his own. So after high school, John decides I need to do something. I need to be brave.

I need to be my own man. Guess what he does? He enlists in the military. And he gets stationed in Georgia. Now he hated all the Georgians. He said, those Georgians, I can say that because I was born and raised in Georgia, right? Because they cursed all the time. And he thought it was just the most crude, disgusting behavior that he has ever experienced in his life

because they cursed. And he'd be physically repulsed by it. Like if you said the F word near him, you'd probably see his shoulder shake. Anytime you went back to Michigan though to see his family, he was so proud of his uniform, just wore it everywhere, doesn't matter. He could be going to, I don't know, Trader Joe's,

he'd put that on. Wouldn't even like throw on a T-shirt. That guy never wore T-shirts, by the way. He like only strictly wore uniforms and suit and ties later on. So he would put it on, but at the same time, if you asked, hey, John, oh, you serve in the military. Wow, thank you for your service.

Where are you stationed? Well, I'm stationed in Georgia right now, but they're gonna send me overseas. It almost seemed like he was embarrassed that he was stationed in the United States. He just wanted to go overseas. He wanted people to know that he is high ranking, or he's like this important person in the military.

See, that's what I was thinking about the whole suit thing. It's about like feeling certain way or presenting yourself in this state. Because it's probably one of the most uncomfortable clothes to wear, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, finally, they do set him overseas near the end of World War II, and according to the

book, he barely got any action. Like most of his time was just waiting to be transferred from base to base, but when he comes back home to Michigan after the war, you guessed it. He very much played the role of a soldier with severe PTSD. He would stare blankly outside at family gatherings, you know, like there'd be a family barbecue and he would just stare into the woods and they'd be like, hey, John, penny for your thoughts.

Just war stuff, you know. Just war stuff. Dark days. Dark days, you wouldn't get it. Where'd you work? Oh, Trader Joe's? No, no, no, it's more violent over it Where'd you work? Oh, Trader Joe's? No, no, no.

It's more violent over it. Maybe it's more violent not Trader Joe's. You know? And he talked about the medals that he received. Most of the medals that he got were given to like whole divisions. Like they didn't even care. So these were medals that they gave out at the end of World War II. They were like, hey everyone, thanks for participating.

Which, okay, again, I'm not laughing because any service is so brave and courageous, right? But he bragged about it like it was the medal of honor. Like it was specifically given to him by the current president, like he put, he was obsessed with it and he wanted to just show it off. And he also became at that same time obsessed with military strategy, which is sit there. And like, you know, they would get like toothpicks and pretend that this is, these are the Nazis,

these are the Germans, these are the Japanese, and this is the US, these are the Allied powers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he started buying these board games for that. And he would convince people to sit down and play with him, and they hated it, they freaking hated it, because imagine this, you come over there for game night. Ooh, it's to be so fun.

You're out some cracker. You're expecting maybe some Shirkudu or your board situation. A lot of wine for sure. Monopoly cards against humanity if we're feeling extra fiscu, what's going on? He would pull out the military strategy board and he would sit there completely erect. Just his back not even at any angle. Just like a little pole in a chair in his suit and tie dead silent red in the face just strategizing and you would have to wait hours for him to

make his next move and you would just be sitting there bored out of your mind and you would just say, John, just take it lightly, it's fine. He would not, he would not and this is you when we play chess. This is actually you when we play chess. Okay. Drives me down. I have to put a time limit. I'm like, come on, go, go, go.

It's not that serious. But he gets really, he gets, yeah, you don't get read in the face, but close to it. A little Cassie, I presume. So he starts buying these military board games and you know what? Why don't we go to college? Graduated after high school, went to the military, now it's time for college. He enrolls in an accounting degree, right? Graduates, gets a job for like $3,000 a month, which really isn't bad, and he's excited, but then the Korean war happens. He's like, oh, I gotta serve my country. So he

enlists in the army trying to see more action this time but he spent most of his time in Virginia. So he is based in Virginia. Now one weekend he goes bowling with some of his fellow soldiers and he sees these really beautiful girls, just two girls, bowling and they're absolutely horrendous at bowling. So of course these guys they start start teasing the girls, you know, as a way of flirting because that's what you do And one of them happened to be Helen Taylor and she is Absolutely beautiful. I mean if you see pictures of Helen Taylor She like I was staring at them. She's so pretty and she had a wild ride of the life So when she was 16 years old dropped out of high school

She was abused as a kid by her parents and she wanted out So she marries her boyfriend who happened to be Marvin and this is her first husband at 16 years old. They have a daughter together named Brenda and he was killed in action in the Korean war. He died heroically trying to save his fellow comrades. He even got a medal for it. So there was a letter written by these high ranking army officials telling her how heroic he was in the last, you know, moments of his life and she was devastated. But that's fine, you know, it's time to move on. So now she's this 26 year old single mom to a nine year old daughter. I mean, things are getting rough.

Her sister takes her bowling like you need to get out of this sadness. You need to get out of the house. You're just crying all day. And Helen is an absolute wreck when she sees John. And she instantly sees stability. I mean this guy is well dressed, he's got a military background, good job as an accountant, such a gentleman. I mean he's tall, he looks courteous, he wasn't exciting or interesting, but maybe a stable future. And he likes her, he seemed obsessed with Helen from like the get-go. Helen says she was freaking worried. You know, John was not the type of guy that would

be great with Helen. Helen was a bit of a wild card. She loved to do things her way. She was spontaneous. She loved spending money. According to the interviews that Mr. Sharky did, Helen liked to spend money like it was going out of style tomorrow. So she kind of needed someone who would be like, no Helen, that's not what we're gonna do. She needed a firm partner that could be like, nope, I'm putting my foot down, I'm not letting you spend our life savings on a pair of shoes.

But Jon could barely manage his own money, so how is he gonna deal with Helen? She needed someone a little bit more stubborn to hold their own, maybe even sometimes shut Helen down, but Helen wanted to settle down ASAP so she decides to rush into marrying John by telling everyone that she knew that she was pregnant with John's child. Now you're thinking, John is very religious what's going on is he not celibate, he said

and I quote, I just slipped into it. He just about a premarital sex now I don't know if he meant literally or figuratively. He said in the quote I'll just slipped into it So take it as you will and he felt like well, we've got to get married down So religious and now you're pregnant with my child. Okay, so they go they get married within two months of knowing each other This is not a good setup like things are not gonna go well And you can already tell because Helen would keep a picture of her first husband Marvin in her drawer at all times as well as the letter that came with his Silver Star award which anytime that John pissed her off guess what she would do. She would run upstairs

into that little drawer, pull out the letter that the army sent her and she would read it out loud, read the letter out loud to John. So they were not a good match. Just at all. Okay. We're not saying Helen's perfect, but I think that John, like the way that her sister states it, is that John really brought out the worst in her. Just, you know, some people they can just be so toxic together, right? Yeah. So Helen, John, and the stepdaughter, they, just the three of them, start moving around. I mean, the amount of times that they moved from different states to different houses is too much. I'm not even gonna go into it, right? But then Helen gave birth to her second daughter, Patricia, soon after, two more sons.

So now they've got like four kids. And at first it was like a super cute little family. Brenda, who was 13, that's the step-daughter. She was so excited to have these little siblings. John would read books to the children. He got a job that was making like $75,000 a year, but here's the problem with John and his jobs. At first, when you look at John,

you're thinking this guy looks like a CEO or something. He's tall, he's meticulous. Look at the way that he dresses, what a sharp dress. Where is that suit? Is like a wetsuit. How is it so perfectly tailored? Like he just looks so clean. Oh, what suit? Well, I'm giving you another wetsuit? How is it so perfectly tailored like he just looks so clean? Oh, what suit?

Well, I'm giving you not a wetsuit that's indifferent. Like it just fits like a glove, I guess that's what I tried to say. And he's just so proper and formal. I mean, he is the epitome of professionalism, but eventually he just could not adapt. He's like the type of person you give him a problem that's not in a book and he would just full on freak out. Like he just couldn't do it. He could not adapt to new environments, he could not adapt to like hanging out with new colleagues. He's just a very rigid person to work with, so he would start kind of getting fired from

these jobs to put it nicely. So he's having career troubles. Meanwhile, the house is starting to fall apart. Helen had four children to take care of. Three of them were younger, but all she wanted to do all day was read a book. So she put that responsibility on Brenda, her teenage daughter from the previous marriage to take care of these kids. There was a lot of resentment building in this house. Every single Sunday, John forced them to church. Helen just was not interested. She did not like waking up early

and asked him if he understood like, why can't I just not go? You knew that I wasn't religious when we started dating like I'm trying my best. Like I'll go on Christmas and Easter and stuff but like every Sunday. And so what does he do? Does he try to bargain with his wife or like try to compromise? No, he gets up, looks around, well with me, gets the kids ready, and shows up to church without Helen. Just him. You're thinking, okay, well that's an adult thing to do, right? No, it almost like he liked being seen as this, aw man, a poor fellow. His wife is so evil. His wife doesn't even come to church. Like, he kind of, do you know what I mean? Yeah. And then he'd be like, no, don't say that about my wife. She's just, um... Do you know what I mean? And then he'd be like, no, don't say that about my wife.

She's just um... Pick me, boy. Yeah, he's a pick me boy, precisely. Like, he liked that. It looked like, you know, how hard does he work, like, being this amazing father, this church man and his wife, what is she possibly doing? And sometimes the neighbor would whisper about them. I mean, I'm gonna be honest.

Helen did have a problem with alcohol so she would drink and she would actually bring the baby's play pen outside in the driveway, pop her kids up in it and then wouldn't see them till later. So there was just a lot of weird dynamics going on and the neighbors were also whispering because the play pen itself looked enormously expensive. Like it just looked so fancy. I mean if they're just gonna throw it out on their driveway why gets such a nice one. That looks to be at least a couple hundred dollars don't you guys think this is how the Like it just looked so fancy. I mean, if they're just gonna throw it out on their driveway, why get such a nice one? That looks to be at least a couple hundred dollars, don't you guys think?

This is how the neighbors would be whispering, right? And the resentment in the relationship just started growing. John wanted- Well, I'm just like, is that's the whole point? People are talking about how expensive that looks. Yeah. While you're caging your kids outside of your house?

Yeah, they're like, that's weird, but what what's weirder is do you think that they're financially capable of spending so much on a boyfriend? It's bizarre. The neighbors at that time were bizarre So John wanted Helen to be this religious lady even though he knew that she wasn't when they got married Just wanted her to be this perfect silent trophy wife. That's honestly what he wanted He wanted to be able to bring her to these work functions and she would just turn it on, charm the pants off of these clients, go home and never never complain about anything, never complain about the diapers or the children or that he never helps out around the house. Nothing and Helen wanted John to be fun. Like that's about it.

He was just so by the books would buy her presents, but would really never spend time with her or try to like have fun with her and she could not stop comparing him to her first husband, the dead war hero. John has no backbone. John never takes care of the kids. John never, you know, only does us go to church, goes to work. She's always the one alone with the kids. So then John gets off her to job at the Z-Rox. You know, yeah, I think it's Z-Rox, okay? And he was gonna be making $112,000 a year. This is insane for that time, right? I mean, this is with inflation, but that's crazy.

Six figures a year. And they start living up to that high life way above their means. I'm talking, traveling all around Europe, summer vacations. Helen was so happy with her newfound financial status, she put a lot of emphasis on money. According to her own sister, this all becomes important later.

Helen was obsessed with status because I think, honestly, she didn't have love with her husband. She was probably dealing with a lot of maybe depression and anxiety and alcoholism. So maybe this is like the only thing that she feels is a positive in her life. eventually they worked their way up to making 300,000 dollars a year, but they were going into dead every single day They would go to these lavish dinner parties for Xerox Helen would get drunk start talking about her war hero first husband

John would get red in the face. Here's the thing with John if he was mad He would get red in the face and there was no way around it. The key would just turn tomato bright red in the face. That sucks. Yeah, and just sit there super awkward. They would drive home. He's accusing her. Like are you trying to flirt with these guys at the party? She's like, what are you talking about? No, I'm not. You're so boring. I can't even, I can't even talk to you. This is the only time I talk to people. So he's like, okay, whatever. I'm gonna become the vice president of Xerox. So he keeps telling his bosses.

Guys, when you guys gonna promote me to vice president of Xerox. And they said, um, we don't think that we can do that. Because anytime you're even at a work meeting, your face gets red. And you just don't really have the presence. You don't really have the leadership. You don't really have the compatibility and these, you know, you just thought really that good of it. You know, kind of think of it. We're going to fire you.

Oh, God. So he keeps asking for a promotion to vice presidents and they just fire him instead. So he gets fired, starts working for a bank at one point. I mean, he's still making really good money, and finally they decide to invest in their first house. This was a massive 19 room Victorian style mansion. 19 rooms, oak flooring, 10 fireplaces, 5 baths, a ballroom with a stained glass skylight that was supposed to be, they said it was a Tiffany

original signed by Tiffany himself. That's fancy. Very, yeah, very fancy. They had a servant's quarters like this was insane, but it was in need of major work. Okay. You don't have to be embarrassed because I was you. Maybe you're sleeping on small saggy mattress, okay? It's cut some stains. You're like, where did I, I don't even to be embarrassed because I was you maybe you're sleeping on small saggy mattress Okay, it's cut some stains. You're like where did I I don't even remember that stain

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They both are kind of obsessed with showing off certain life files. Yeah. I think I want I would say that John was a little bit worse than Helen. I think Helen wanted a lot of nice things, but she kind of wanted it for herself. Like someone who enjoys it. Like she's like, oh, I want this nice, really nice stove because I love nice stove. Like I love cooking. But John seemed to be the type that would want it to brag to people. For example, okay, John hates TVs. He thinks that's Satan inside your household.

You're just letting. You're just opening the doors like, hey, Satan Satan come bring your friends and talk to my kids. He thought that that's what TVs were right, but they had four TVs in the house. He hated it, but he would also brag all the time. Oh we have four TVs in our house. Oh yeah, did you know we have four, oh yeah I tried to turn off the TV but there's four side of room to room to room to turn off all the TVs. We have four TVs in the house.

Yeah I know most people can't even get one but we have four TVs in the house. Yeah, I know most people can't even get one, but we have four TVs in the house. So he would just non-stop brag. I think John was probably the worst of the two. Now, the house itself was about like $500,000. Half a million dollars. It's expensive, but they needed about $100,000

to pay the down payment. So they asked John's mom for it, and the only condition that she gave was that she'd had to live there. They were fine with it. You know, the house is big, she can even have her own kitchen. That's how big houses. And they wanted this house, it was status. They wanted this house more than anything. So they move in, they've got these huge renovation plans. It's going to take five years, but it's going to be their dream. They, if they start acting like newlyweds all over again. At this point in the house though, there were only three kids,

so Brenda, the first daughter, she had moved out. She had gotten married and moved out, right? People thought this is gonna be good for the relationship. And John loved this house more than anything. Every single night, he would go outside and break the leaves in a full suit and tie. And every single week, he would mow the grass in a full suit and tie. And every single week he would mow the grass in a full suit and tie, sometimes a tuxedo.

So with a 19-bedroom mansion, they couldn't hire anybody to maintain the house? Yeah, they were house rich. Now, John List was a complete weirdo, so his neighbors start noticing this, right? Right when he moves into the house, it was just kind of the talks of the town. Like you mentioned, you know most of the neighborhood they're pretty well off. These are nice mansions in the area, most people hire people to tend

the yards and stuff, but maybe he just likes to save. Maybe, but why is he wearing a full suit and tie? Like they just can't get over it, it's just so bizarre. And if you were a neighbor walking by his house and you try to wave at him while he's mowing the lawn, he would never look in your direction. He only looks straight ahead like a robot. No, that's creepy. Suit and tie. Wouldn't even acknowledge you.

He loved to read. So there was a library in this 19 bedroom house. And every single night, he would read the Bible. Every single night. But his favorite pastime were the military games, okay? And at first people said that maybe you think that this guy is just passionate. He's just one of those military men. He's a veteran, right?

But now that you really think about it, people said that he's actually just a calculated person. That's the only thing that they can put to it. When you look with innocent eyes, you're like, oh, this guy's just really into it. But no, he's just calculated. He's also a bit of a hypocrite. So like I said, he's super religious, right? But he had pre-marital sex with Helen. He'll set a secret PO box where he would send these not full porn, but like semi-pornographic magazines too. Yeah. And this is a nod story. Apparently he had went on this weekend trip with another church couple that were married

So we've got these two married couples. Hey, uh, you know John Helen you want you guys want to save some money Maybe we can just get one room two beds one room not anything creepy. We're all Christians like we're not trying to swing or anything You know just one room so they get this room everything's supposed to be very peachy clean because these are two really Straightforward Christian couples, right? But in the middle of the night, the other couple that hear these really aggressive grunting noises. And it was John. It was almost like he wanted this couple to wake up in the middle of the night to let

them know that he was forking his wife. I mean, it was just bizarre. He would sit there and he would read the newspaper, so that they're completely straight posture, not even like any little angle or bend in his back, nothing. Would pick up the newspaper section by section only the edges, because he doesn't like to touch the ink. So he was later diagnosed with OCD. Right, which would explain a lot of these things.

Touch never touches the ink. Reads in an orderly fashion section to section would put the newspaper back together after, so it looked like nobody had read it. The neighbors also noticed that the kids were really lonely. If they were having a barbecue, all of a sudden, in front of the list house, you would see all of the kids rushed to the porch and just stare at them with these puppy dog eyes. So the neighbors feeling a lot of pressure. They'd say, you guys are not...

You guys hungry? Do you want to come over and eat some barbecue? So the kids would rush over there and it didn't look like they were hungry. It just looked like they were lonely. John loved his two sons. Love it. You know, he was like the type that's like my son, my son, right? But he had problems with his oldest, you know, his daughter Patricia. He did not like any of her friends. Thought that they were all bad influences. They were all hippies, he said. They influenced her to dun dun dun. Where skinny jeans, those mother-forkers.

And that made her look like, and I quote, a cheap slut. And so he would constantly tell his kids, mainly Patricia, because she was the girl. You're gonna hell. Like, she just walks by and a dress that he doesn't like. Hey, slut, you're gonna hell Like she just walks by and address that he doesn't like hey Slut you're going to hell like that's how aggressive he was would just yell slight in her face as she walked by On one occasion he hated the shirt that she was wearing can you guess why? Too short it said make love not war on it. I mean how are you gonna guess that? I don't know Like what is the probability that you would guess that correctly?

So it's a make love not war and he hated it so much He started ripping it off of her and left her just naked and scared just terrified and would start screaming Slut at her while he's doing this just you filled these thoughts thought And he held a grudge. So when she was young, she had, you know, put a small snake in the kitchen, like a harmless, harmless snake. He put a snake. She did. With, you know, with the two brothers, they had put this little snake. They were hiding, waiting to see which adult is going to come in here and see this snake and scream. And he saw, he was so pissed off. I can't believe that my kids would do that to me

and he said that he had a feeling that Patricia was the one that planned everything the boys had nothing to do with it he would actually be so upset about this that he would remember it 40 years later and write about it a huge point of contention in the family was that Patricia loved theater club right she was the theater kid she was a escape from. She wasn't the best actress from the get-go, but she worked hard. Everyone knew it. Even the drama teacher Ed knew it. Never slacked off like the other kids. In the middle of the night, she would just be whispering lines alone in her room just trying to memorize them. Came to class every single day with every line memorized. She even got a job so that she could pay for

private sessions with the drama teacher, and that was like $60 an hour. Never asked her parents for any money. And John list hated theater club. He said it was for centers. It's not for Christians. Right? And according to the book, interviews were done with Ed, the drama teacher, and Patricia told him that she was in love with him. Her teacher. Now this is where it gets weird.. There's an in-depth section in this book about the relationship between Patricia and the drama teacher. It feels very icky. Not the book, but the relationship. Something weird is going on.

We're not blaming Patricia. We're blaming the drama teacher. Ed does tell Jo Sharkey. I never touched her. I never did anything inappropriate with her. I was in love with her. Kind of a little bit weird, right? A little bit strange, really illegal ed, what's going on? So he would spend a little bit of time alone with her that even as assistant was wondering and warning him,

like be careful, you're getting too close to the students. But it seems like Patricia needed someone to talk to. So this is important later. The police really didn't know much about the list family. I mean, they're not really someone on their radar. They're not criminals. They're not like running a drug thing out of their 19 room mansion. There weren't even allegations of abuse. Like, truly, they did not know the list family like that until Put Your Show was arrested at 16 years old. So she wasn't technically arrested, but she was being held at the station because she had snuck out with her

friend. They were having a sleepover. They decided, you know what? This is freaking boring. We're gonna go outside. We're just gonna walk around chewing gum, gossiping. And they got brought into the station. And we know it was just truly teenager things, but the police wanted to make this whole show about it. We're gonna bring your parents to come get you next time. We're gonna arrest you. Do you know what it's like in jail? Like they were just doing the most, right? So the other friend's dad comes to pick her up and he was annoyed. Don't get me wrong.

Like any dad is gonna be like, what's wrong with you? Something could have happened to you. You could have gone kidnaps. But he seemed to like he was a little bit more upset that the police were making this huge fuss. Like he was like, why didn't you guys just drive her home? Give her a warning.

Like why are you putting on this whole show and now we're gonna come to the police station at three in the morning? Jesus Louise, but when John this came, the police were shocked. Not only was he so pissed, I mean he was so mad, right? But he was wearing a full suit and tie and he smelled like aftershave.

So he had gotten up in the middle of the night with this call, shaved his beard or his, I guess, like, you know, stubble, put on a full suit and tie to come pick up his daughter. Around this time, he gets fired from his job again. And what does he do? Does he look for another job? Does he tell his family guys how are we

going to pay for this 19 room mansion? Because we live paycheck to paycheck, if not worse, like we go into debt every single month, right? No, he doesn't do that. He puts on his suit and tie every single morning and Pretends like he's going to work he'd go to the train station and just for for eight hours straight just read a book What in the world what is happening? So you're thinking what about the money that doesn't make any sense? He's got to pay the mortgage

He would skim the money from his mom's bank account and his reasoning for this was what's not that big of a deal because when she dies it's my money anyway I don't know how people what you know towards the end they start selling off all the furniture and he's just like I just don't like this style and he would slowly sell it to people so imagine a giant 19 room house nowhere to sit sit. Like no furniture. What's going on? Why don't you just downsize at this point, right? John still felt super proud though, of how he handled his numbers. Even though every single month they were closer to foreclosure, they were closer to just going bankrupt. He loved looking at his accounting

books, because the way that he wrote the numbers and his math was just so perfect, even if he was in debt. He's just so good at math. I know. I don't understand this either. So he's not stressed. Yeah, because I mean, I had times where I was financially stressed and I hated looking. I hated looking at statements or like, you know, the bottom line because you're like, oh, no, I'm screwed.

But he would look at it and think, my accounting is so good. What? Yeah, my accounting is so good. Okay. Just really confusing dude, you know. So as he is admiring this, you know, he comes to dinner time and he looks at the kids and he says, hey, kids, what do you guys want after you die? What? Like how do you want your funeral to be do you want to be buried cremated? What do you want? They all look so scared, but they said Barried we want to be buried And he just walked out. He didn't even say anything. He just walked out went back into his office So according to interviews in the book, right?

According to Ed's interviews Patricia asked if they could talk. So Ed, the drama teacher puts Patricia in his car, they start driving back to her house, and she said that, ah, I think my dad's gonna kill me. You're just being dramatic. Like, why do you think that? He said, we're good, I'm gonna kill you guys. He said that point blank. He asked us how we want to be buried or cremated and he straight up told us that he's going to kill us. Ah, don't be crazy Patricia. He's just saying that he doesn't mean that. I say that all the time to my daughter. Like I'm going to kill you. Do your homework. He doesn't mean it. No, you don't get it. And she just kept insisting. And she says, listen, I don't care if you don't believe me teacher, but if he ever tells

you that he's taking us all on this like family trip or something or that we're going out of town, that's it. You're gonna know it happened. He killed me. Again, it is like Patricia, you're being dramatic. I'm just gonna drop you off at home. So they part their ways, but it bothered him a little bit. So the next day, he makes a trip to the list house. He, oh, Patricia, you forgot your book and he enters the house. And as he's leaving, one of the sons grabs his arm and says, uh, Mr. Red, if you're ever in the neighborhood, please come by. What? Please, understand. You were welcome here at any time. That's insane.

And the little kid sounded so scared. Like, this wasn't, hey, Ed, I just really like you. Yeah. Like, you're my friend. It was like, please come. Now, John's house is about to foreclose at this point and they're gonna head into bankruptcy. They're gonna go into welfare.

Everything's gonna fall apart. Everyone is gonna know that the family lost their house, that they're on welfare, that they have no money, that they're bankrupt. All their status is gonna be gone. It's actually gonna be worse than gone, you know? Because before you have status, no one cares about you, but a fall from grace is the best thing ever

for everyone looking around. So he starts planning. Maybe I should get a job? No, no, no, no, that doesn't make sense. We're in too deep. Maybe I should pray? Well, I've been doing that in a house I'm from working. Maybe we should just try to downsize to a smaller house.

You know, bite the bullet, go on welfare, but now we've learned a lesson. No, I can't do that. He comes up with a more devious plan. And he wakes up and he starts the morning off, like any other in his office, probably wearing another perfectly steamed suit. This guy's creepy, okay? If I ever see someone wearing a suit for too long, I'm like, what's going on? I don't know. I don't like it. There's nothing about that that looks comfortable. Like you gotta come on relax, just relax. Going over paperwork. Passport? Maybe I- no, I don't need my passport anymore. Actually, you know what?

I'll take my passport because it might confuse people. I don't think I need my driver's license. He starts packing his little suitcase. What else should I carry? He watches the kids head off to school and he opens up a cabinet. Inside he sees the envelope that he had perfectly labeled, Guns and ammo. Can you guess what's inside? Guns and ammo. He had labeled it, Guns and ammo. Takes it out.

Wates until the milkman does his rounds, which by the way, did you know milkmen back in the day were wild? Just the whole process is wild, so you would usually leave your kitchen door unlocked. The milkman would let himself in and you would have a note on the fridge. That would say like three cartons of milk or six eggs and they would leave it. I didn't know they'd come inside. They would come inside. Well some people leave it at the front door, but a lot of these milkmen came inside.

What? Yeah. To deliver your milk. Sounds like there's got to be a milkman killer. Zero killer, yes. So he waits for the milkman to leave and then he hears Helen coming downstairs to fix herself a new cup of tea. She drinks a little tea.

John comes up behind her, shoots her in the face. She was instantly killed. But for whatever reason, he wanted to fire a couple more shots, so he shoots them into the wall behind her body, some of them into the next room. His suit got a bit of blood on them, because this is close range we're talking about, okay? Like, a lot of blood was splattered on him.

But he calmly walks upstairs, and he finds his mom. She was making breakfast at this time and she says, John, is that you? What was that noise downstairs? And he comes up in front of her and shoots her in the face. Close range. Fire two more times. Now, his whole genius plan was to drag her downstairs

to be with Helen, but he didn't have the strength. So instead, he rolled her up in a rug and kept her there. He cleaned some of the blood off the floor, not because he was trying to hide with Helen, but he didn't have the strength, so instead he rolled her up in a rug and kept her there. He cleaned some of the blood off the floor, not because he was trying to hide the evidence, not because he was trying to clean the crime scene, but because his mom was a neat person. What? Yeah, and as all of this is happening, oddly enough the toast popped out of the toaster, and that's just a creepy detail. Weird stuff like that makes me feel so eerie

So he goes back downstairs drags Helen's body into the ballroom leaving a giant streak of blood just through the hallway I mean this is literally a Victorian mansion nightmare He grabs a bunch of sleeping bags puts Helen's body into one as if she's camping like face up Just in this ballroom. And he's thinking, well, look at all the blood on you, John. Calmly walks back upstairs, smeared some blood all over Helen's bed, as like a angry like FU, changed, took a shower, changed into a fresh, sued and tie, and started writing letters.

He goes back into his office. So he writes letters to the kids' school, saying that Helen's mom is really ill. They're gonna be taking some time in New North Carolina and they'll be back And now he's got some time to kill. So what does he do? He goes out and rakes the leaves outside Perfectly calmly after murdering his own mother and his wife calmly breaks the leaves that he makes a sandwich for lunch

calmly breaks the leaves. Then he makes a sandwich for lunch. Eats his sandwich, and then Patty comes home. And what does he do? He shoots Patty in the face as well. Dragged her dead body into the ballroom, placed her in a separate sleeping bag right next to her dead mom. Then he took another shower, put on another fresh suit and tie. And this time he goes to the bank. He closed the accounts for him and his mom. He had already stolen about $100,000 from his mom. Now there was only $20,000 left. So he steals all of that in cash. His two sons come home and he did the same thing to them. Now it's said that one of the sons did not die immediately and they were shot multiple times. Like one of them died in agony. He dragged both of the boys into the ballroom, reunited their dead bodies with the dead bodies of their mom and their sister and

placed them into their own sleeping bags. He even moved Helen's hand so that it looked like she was holding one of the boys in her arms. Like really creepy. They were all face up and he prayed for them. This guy prayed for it. Like how do you have the audacity to pray for them after you murdered them? How does he do that? Like... Just so meticulous, so emotionless. I mean, it's so creepy. Like how why? And so even when you look at other like, like family, mass murders, right, you still get a sense of well this person is somewhat affected. I mean I'm not saying that they're not guilty. I'm not saying that we should have sympathy for them, but you kind of see it in the evidence.

Like, they're really messy. They start getting a little bit frazzled. They leave clues. Some shit goes down. But with him, he goes about the rest of the day, cleaning. Organizing. Calling the pastor to let him know that he's going out of town. He even called the theater club and Ed's assistant picked up and he said, you know what?

Patricia's not going to be in theater club recently because we're going out of town in North Carolina. He even wrote letters to his mother-in-law, Helen's mom, and also Helen's sister. And listen to how cold these letters are. But now you know, doubt what has happened to Helen and the children. I'm very sorry that it had to happen, but because the number of reasons, I just couldn't see another solution. I just couldn't support them anymore, and I didn't want them to go into poverty. Also, at this time, they were Christians. I couldn't be sure of that in the future as the children grew up, with my

sincere sympathy, John List. So, he's not even trying to hide it? No. He's gonna assume everybody knows that he killed them. Yeah, but how's it to get away with it for 18 years then? Exactly. It's crazy. So to Helen's sister, he wrote, Mrs. Jean. I'm sorry that it had to go that way, but when I couldn't support them, I couldn't let them go on welfare. Please accept my sincere sympathy.

John List. He writes a few more letters, puts them into a folder altogether, and then he sits down to write his confession that he had titled for his reverend. So he's confessing to the reverend. And I mean, you get the whole letter in the book, but I'm just going to kind of skim it for you, right? These are the reasons why he mass murdered his entire family, including his young children. Number one, I wasn't earning anywhere enough to support us.

Everything I tried seemed to fall to pieces. True, we could have gone bankrupt and maybe gone on welfare, but that brings me to my next point. Knowing the type of location that one would have to live in. So like if you go bankrupt, right? Plus the environment for the children, plus the effect of them knowing that they were on welfare, it was more than I thought they could and should endure. I know that they were willing to cut back, but this involved a lot more than that.

Number 3. With Patricia being so determined to get into acting, I was fearful as what this might do to her, continuing to be a Christian. I'm sure it wouldn't have helped. Number 4. Also with Helen not going to church, I knew this would harm the children eventually in their attendance. Of course, you know, mother got involved because doing what I did to my family would have been a tremendous shock to her at this age. Therefore, knowing that

she is also a Christian, I felt it best that she be relieved of the troubles of this world. After it was all over, I set some prayers from the hymn book. That's the least I could do. Now for the final arrangements, Helen and the kids agreed that they want to be cremated. Why did he change that? I don't know, like a final FU. And he said, please see to it that the costs are kept low. And he said, I leave myself in the hand of God's justice and mercy. And he just said, what's the point of the kids living if they weren't Christians? And he even asked, and he even wrote in the letter, like people are going to say things like, how could he do such a horrible thing? My answer is that it wasn't easy, and it was only done after much

thought. So after he writes this, he eats dinner, goes to sleep. The next morning, he starts prepping. He turns the heat down low, right? So it's pretty cold. I mean, it's wintertime. He goes through every picture frame in the house and cuts his picture in all the photographs so that the police wouldn't have like an updated picture. I mean, nonetheless, there were a lot of pictures of him from loved ones later, but in the beginning, he just wanted to make it a little bit hard.

He canceled all the milkman deliveries, the male deliveries, turned on every light in the house except the ballroom, closed all the curtains, put some bloody rags in a bag near the back door, and it looked like someone was taken out the trash like this is how crazy neat he was, turned on the radio to classical music and left with all of his stuff. The school, the church, everything was taken care of. Hopefully, nobody would come looking any time soon. The only thing that he didn't factor in was the drama teacher.

So Ed heard from the assistant and he was shook. Remember what Patricia said? Like straight up, this is what she said. But he couldn't tell anyone because how he's gonna tell someone that he had a lone time with a female student who was 16 years old and like, she confessed to all these, no, he gonna tell someone that he had a lone time with a female student who was 16 years old and like she confessed all these no he can't do that So instead he drives by the house that night all the lights are on it looks fine

Okay, maybe Patricia was just being dramatic. She just knew that they were going out of town didn't want to go She's gonna miss the play. Maybe that's why but then weeks pass Still no word and Patricia was someone who loved writing to people. If she went on a one day trip to the next town over, she would send a postcard. And that postcard would arrive after she arrived. So she'd be like, yeah, that's my postcard.

But nothing. Ed was driving past like every other day, even the neighbors started noticing, like, who's this guy? What does he keep driving by our neighborhood? We should call the cops on him everyone was confused he would go up to the door no one would answer and he could he kind of hear some classical music playing maybe someone left the radio on but eventually after about a month he just couldn't go to sleep

it was affecting his work it was affecting his life his uh marriage yeah the guy's married okay his being a parent everything he just really couldn't talk to anyone about it So he decides I just got to break into the house At least that way I can sleep now Listen, I get it building a presentation feels like an uphill battle because not only do you want to get the points across to your audience Whoever that may be maybe it's fellow fellow classmates, colleagues, a future boss, a presentation on why you deserve a raise, okay? No matter what it is, it feels like aesthetics matter a lot,

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He claimed that he got, he went room to room. Then he gets to the ballroom, and he shines the light on the sleeping bags on the ground. And he immediately turned it off. No, no, no, no, no, no way. And he turns it back on. And sure enough, there were the decomposed bodies of the children and Helen laying in their sleeping bags. So he just rushes out of the window again.

Go home, doesn't tell his wife, doesn't tell anyone. Kept it a secret. So at this point, the theater kids, they're talking to him and they're like, you know what, Mr. I think we're gonna go break into the house. So he's like, no, you kids, I'll go break into the house. Someone should go check up on him, so he takes his assistant and together, they make a whole ruckus this time.

They drive up into the driveway, they're knocking on the door super loud the neighbors notice They call the cops the neighbors are like look at these little robbers So the cops come they're trying to climb in through a window and the cops arrest the two actually, right? But Ed somehow convinces them just check on the house. Let's just check on the house When the police enter the house the music is playing loudly They go room to room. But they knew something was bad. The smell was intense. So when they reach the ballroom, they shine their light in, and they see that there are badly decomposing bodies, like there were maggots on the bodies. The bodies were bloated, they were in their sleeping bags,

and it's just such an eerie sight. A ballroom sleeping bags like, what is going on? One of the officers goes to check the rest of the house and he just starts screaming this terrified scream so people rush up. He had literally tripped over Mrs. Liss, dead body that was wrapped up in that rug. And so the police immediately find the confession letters, his gun, his ammo. I mean they knew who did it, they even knew why he did it, they know how he did it, but it was bizarre. Like, why did he think that this was okay? What kind of person thinks like this? Yeah. And where the fork is this guy? They need to catch him, but it has been about a month since the murders.

Since the mass murders of his family members, with five victims, this guy is long gone. They check all the nearby airports. There's just nothing. The amount of attention that he pays to details. I mean, there's just this guy's meticulous. If anyone can disappear, it's this guy. So Helen, sister and their family, they were devastated, but they were also terrified. How do you know that this guy's not coming for them next?

What if he's just like so balzy? He just wants to annihilate their whole family? Exactly. And the audacity that he has like to have these funeral arrangements he gave a list to the reverent of how he wants the funeral and guess who would be paying? Not John because he took all his money and didn't leave money for the funeral so Helen's family would be expected to pay but would have to follow these instructions. And the family had another problem to deal with. The police practically let anyone in the house. Even crime reporters were coming in taking pictures of the dead bodies.

And just plastering them on the media's, like just everywhere newspapers. Regular people came in to steal photographs out of the frames, because they wanted, I guess, a photograph of the dead family? I don't know, just bizarre stuff. A ton of Helen's personal belongings were gone, like, what a photograph of the dead family? I don't know, it just bizarre stuff. A ton of Helen's personal belongings were gone, like, what the hell is wrong with people? Then the FBI gets involved. They put out a wanted poster, six feet tall, 180 pounds,

considered very dangerous, has a scar right behind his right ear, and extra comments, they wrote, very neat dresser. Then two weeks later, something crazy happens. DB Cooper. And everyone know who knew about John List said it's got to be him. Imagine it. A hijacked plane, a man in a suit. He was tall didn't they say he was like six feet something. Yes they did. Guess who else was six feet? John List.

He was very formal, very proper, suit and tie. And he just jumped out of that plane with $200,000. It's gotta be him. They'd never found DB Cooper. And at the house, the neighbors start noticing some weird noises. So the police are called in. And it seems like these high school kids

were breaking into the list house, holding seances there. Just trying to be like goofy. I mean, very weird stuff. They would do this like shaving cream. It's like a shaving cream initiation where they would get butt naked, pour shaving cream on themselves and rub up on each other in Patricia's room because it would bring them closer to Satan and Patricia, just bizarre stuff. Just really bizarre.

About nine months after the murders, the house burned down. And if you look at the reports, it's very strange because every report, well a lot of the reports note that the Tiffany stained glass had also been burnt down, which was estimated to be about a million dollars. So it's kind of like the solid thing of, well if he knew what that was worth. Oh, he had no idea. It seems like he has no idea. Holy cow. like he has no idea. Holy cow. A piece of glass was a million dollar?

Yeah, by Tiffany, a Tiffany original. Wow. And the house was burned down not by high schoolers, but experienced arsonist, just very bizarre. Meanwhile John List had taken the name Robert Clark, which was someone who he knew in high school. And later when they interview Robert Clark, he's like, I never freaking knew the guy. Like, yeah, I mean, I saw him in the Eurobook, but he just blend it in. Like this guy, you don't even notice him. So he moves to Denver, Colorado, loved the mountains. Okay, that's why he moves there.

And he rented this tiny little trailer, starts working at these restaurants, and eventually he works his way up into being an accountant again. With a fake social security number, a fake identity, he even gets a driver's license. He lives in the same apartment at one point for seven years straight. This guy is not like on the run like you would imagine, just hopping from place to place, you know, just bumming it. No, I mean this guy's doing well for himself. He even starts going to church, which is so ballsy,

because everyone was on the lookout for a very devout religious Lutheran who looks like John List. But he would just go to church, even start staining a woman by the name of Delores. Who was recently divorced, she was shy, she was religious, and she was just attracted to Bob's gentle nature, you know? It's just so well spoken, neatly dressed man, they get a place together, he moves in. And then one day Dolores gets a bang on the door.

It's Wanda! Hey sorry to bother you, I just... Funny story, can I sit down? Yeah, Wanda sure come in, so they sit down, Dolores is making our tea coffee, and she puts down a little tabloid. What's this? Okay, please don't be offended. I know. Maybe it's just my eyes are getting bad. Maybe I just have too much time. They say, Wanda, get a job, you know. Wanda this, Wanda. I think your husband's a killer.

What? Just read it, just read it. So she flips to the page of the perfect crime. Dolores reads it, and she starts giggling. She's like, you're crazy, Wanda. And they both start laughing and Wanda's like, okay, she feels relieved. This is the reaction she wanted. Yeah, it's just me being crazy, crazy Wanda, right?

And they're giggling, and she says, that doesn't, you know Robert. He's just the most... he couldn't even hurt a fly. He's so gentle. No, this... I mean I get it like they do have some similarities but you're so funny you're so crazy Wanda. Is there photos in there of the girl? Yeah. And so Wanda's like well I know this is just wild, but maybe you should ask him. Like, if maybe even as a joke, you could just be like, look, it's just, it looked just like a mass murder on the run,

you know, just, why not? And Dolores says, like, yeah, sure. I mean, it'll be a laugh, I'll show him. So Wanda leaves and she's so impatient, she's just waiting, she's like asking, she wants to ask Dolores. So the next day, Roberts at work, she knocks on the door.

Did you ask him? Ask him what? I'm about the perfect crime! Did your husband John List? Did your husband a fugitive as the amass murder? Did he kill his family? Did you ask him? Oh, that thing oh my god. No, I threw it away. I mean I didn't really think much of it I didn't know you were serious you wanted me to ask him

I didn't really think much of it. I didn't know you were serious. You wanted me to ask him? Wanda, you're so stressed out. It's not the same person, okay. It's just not. So she drops it, but Wanda could not stop thinking about it. She just knew that they were the same person. I mean how weird was it? John List is just weirdly formal. That's what everyone noticed. Super religious. They said that you were even terrified to bring up the topic of religion. Because the minute someone even said, oh my god, he would go into like a 45 minute sermon. And you're just like, bro, I just, I'm, we were in the elevator together and I dropped my phone and I said, oh my god, and now you're following me and telling me about God. You know, like he was very religious, even for that time period, always wear a coat and tie or a suit and tie.

They even look the same. They even have that same scar on the right ear, such a distinct scar. This doesn't make sense. And if Robert lied about his age because Wanda felt like he was way older than 55, if he lied about it, that would make him the same age as John List. So even after Dolores and Robert move out of the state for work, you move out, Wanda would just keep thinking about it. And one day she sits on herself with her family and turns on the TV.

America's most wanted. One of the oldest cases that they covered at their time. This is like when the show premiered, right? And she saw John List pop up again, and she just knew. She just had to call this time. So she calls, gives in a tip, and gives their new name and address. So the FBI gets this tip, right? Meanwhile, enrichment, did you know Robert Clark was also watching the same episode of America's

most wanted of himself? and he was calm? Unbelievable. So the FBI get that tip. They think you know what? We're gonna check it out This is one of the very few tips that come with the name and an address. Usually these America's Most Wanted First of all, they did solve a lot of crime, but a lot of them was like, hey, um that guy looks like my husband Who's a nasty piece of filth? I think it is my husband who's a nasty piece of filth. I think it is my husband. Right? So they're like, let's check this out. Two officers head to Robert Clark's house. He's not home, Dolores

is, and they confront her with this information. And she just starts breaking down. And she said, it can't be. It can't be. Now, the officers realize that she's not trying to protect him, but more so herself. Because it'd be devastating if this is true. So then they go to his workplace and they arrest him and they ask him if he's John List. He said, no. That's strange. If you weren't John List, and I asked you if you were John List, what would you say? What's a normal reaction?

What the hell do you think I'm John List? I'm not some mass murder. Who the hell is John List? But he just said no. So after 18 years they finally got him. But the problem is for like a month straight he kept saying he was Robert Clark, his Robert Clark. And then the fingerprints came up and he was John List. Okay, even the scars matched everything matched. So now he's waiting for trial. He would even write his friends just acting casually.

He liked talking about how everyone thought very briefly that he was DB Cooper. It just inflated his ego, right? So the trial comes by, easy decision. He was found guilty on all accounts, life in prison with no parole, and Helen's sister said to Jo Charky that John will be in prison for the rest of his life. He will die with his Bible and his arrogance to comfort him. That is more justice than he gave those children and my sister. So in 2002 he was interviewed by Connie Chung and she just straight up asked him, I mean, to this woman's bowl, she said, why didn't you just kill yourself? Like, you killed your whole family, why didn't you kill yourself too?

Like, if there was no point of coming back, why didn't you kill yourself, you little nathapy's a scum, okay, she didn't say like that, but she asked, why didn't you take your own life? And he said he couldn't. Because if he killed them all, all of those people would go to heaven. His mom, his wife, and his kids. However, if I commit suicide, there would be 100% automatically I would go to hell. And I want to reunite with my family in heaven. So obviously, side note, disclaimer, a lot of religious people came for, a lot of Lutherans. They were like, this guy's a hypocrite.

He uses, this is what most people who use religion to murder people or commit crimes. They're very hypocritical. They say that they're so devout and they love religion so much, but they only take certain pieces of it that they like. So this is exactly what he did. This is not a representation of religion or Lutherans. So in prison, he writes a book and it gets worse. Guess what the book title is? Collateral damage.

Like as if his family is collateral damage. Like as if his family is collateral damage. And according to Mr. Sharky who read the whole book, which like I can't even imagine the pain of that, John was discussing the whole time. He was blaming everyone. He was even blaming his wife, like how Helen tricked him into marriage by saying that she was pregnant. She just was so deceitful. She was the reason that he couldn't do better in these jobs and that's why he got fired. And then he started either blaming his OCD or his PTSD on why he murdered his entire family. And he also stated that he believed that God had forgiven him.

So this guy died in jail in prison on March 21st, 2008. And everyone who interviewed him, everyone who had any contact with him, they said, he never once showed any remorse. Just no emotion. Now, regardless of if you're religious or not, this guy's definitely not reunited with his family, okay? This guy, if there is a hell, he's burning in the depths of it. It's so weird.

Just so weird. Everything about him is just so creepy. He almost seems like so. It seems like a fake book because how he's so rigid. It almost is like if you give like a novice writer, hey write a heartless psychopath. Yeah. You know, suit and tie, just robotic movements. Like this is kind of what you would imagine, right?

Yeah. But this is kind of what you would imagine right yeah but this is who he was I just don't know how he casually kills everyone so easily and then just showers and puts on a new suit and tie and leaves and then he even writes these confession letters he wasn't even trying to be like the type of guy that tries to get away with it you know tries to commit the perfect murder where nobody knows who did it he's just just like, no, I'm just going to tell everyone I did it. Just bizarre. What are your thoughts on this case? Do you think that if it wasn't, I mean, now can we be a little bit thankful for nosy neighbors? Maybe not. But at least this one did some good, you know. Think about that next time, okay, your nosy neighbor. It's not being evil.

Could save your life. Could save your life. So I hope you guys enjoyed this week's mini-sode and I will see you guys on Wednesday. Bye