Rotten Mango - #83: The Tooth Fairy Serial Killer (Case of Snowtown Murders)

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

You walk into an empty abandoned bank. You walk straight for the vault.  Sure, you know there won’t be anything of value left but you can’t help but try. In there you see a strange sight.  6 giant barrels lined up against the wall. Maybe they’re filled with money? Or maybe it contains the tortured, dismembered, and cannibalized remains of 8 people. Well, go on - open it.  Source Notes: rottenmangopodcast.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Buta bing buta boom. Welcome to this week's main episode. We're talking about a monster of a case. This is the snow town, bank vault murders, the bodies, in the barrels. I have been dreading talking about this case because I feel the minute that I open my lips and I start telling you this story, evil. Just pure evil is gonna start penetrating this room, this very room that we're filming this episode in. I'm terrified. I mean I have goosebumps on my body, it gets really intense. Have you ever heard the saying, things are not always what they seem? Is that the saying? I think so, okay? So imagine this.

Maybe you're walking down the street. You pass a man. He's on the short side. He's got a little bit of a dad bod. He's wearing a little polo shirt, some khakis. He's got this brown fluffy hair. This beard. I mean, some people might say that he looks like Jack Black.

I don't know. That's the comparison everyone makes. He's got these eyeglasses on. He looks friendly. If not, he almost looks innocent for a man his age What are you supposed he's thinking of? We don't like to be stereotypical, but like maybe he's thinking of football Maybe he's thinking of sports or maybe he's thinking about spending the weekend with his friends eating pizza

Maybe he goes camping. You would imagine that he's a completely normal guy with semi-normal thoughts But you would never know just by looking at him that when he's walking past you, that he is thinking about his ultimate fantasy. His daydream is to enter someone's house while they're asleep and fill it with dead bodies, hang them on the walls like paintings, have them suspended from the ceiling, just fill that room with dead bodies. Then he would go to the homeowner, the main target, sit him down upright on a chair, tie him up, slit his throat, and after he does that,

he wants to stick a live Chihuahua into the opening slit of his throat. Why? Because the dog would be so scared it would start yapping, it would start barking non-stop. He would sneak his way back out, call the cops, and watch through the windows when the police come in to find the body, a dead body barking at the police, as they open the door, they would be traumatized.

They may never recover. And to him, that is absolutely hilarious, that is the funniest thing that he could ever think of. Wait, what did he do to the Chihuahua again? He wanted to stuff the Chihuahua into the dead man's throat that had been slit, so that it would be barking, and it almost looks like the man is barking. The dead man on the chair is barking. He said that this is the funniest thing that he's ever thought of.

This is his ultimate fantasy. I mean, ultimately what he wants to do in life is to play God, is to play puppet master. He wants to have this power to choose how someone lives and also how they die. And almost always, he wants them to die in a slow, painful, torturous death. To him, the thought is so pleasant that sometimes they'll just laugh out loud thinking about it. It's like a joke to him. Right?

So then we've got this man. And like I said, things are not what they seem. So picture in your mind an empty abandoned clothes down bank in the middle of a tiny, tiny town with like a population of 500 people. What do you imagine is in there? You're probably thinking the same stuff I'm thinking, okay? You see papers scattered on the floor.

You see some graffiti on the walls. Of course, anything of value has probably gone. All their computers, the money, anything. It's gone. But then what about bank vault? Where they used to keep all the cash. You've got the steel doors. So you're thinking, well, I'm going to walk in here and I'm going to steal the CDs. Steel. Yeah, that's what you're going to do. You're going to see these empty safety deposit boxes. You're going to hope that someone left a little stack of cash just waiting for you It's your lucky day, but what if all you see is six giant barrels up against the wall?

You're thinking what could be in that money? Gold? Holy cow, maybe it's filled with like a computer With $200, $200, $200 million of Bitcoin on there. I mean anything could happen The possibilities are endless so you walk up closer and you flip open the lid. And instead of that, you would find the dismembered remains of eight different people. We are talking about the Snowtown murders, aka the bank vault murders, aka the bodies in the barrel case. This is one of Australia's most intense cases. I mean, it's absolutely gnarly.

I don't even know where to start. As always, full source notes are available at rotinmangopodcast.com, but there's, yes, you guessed it, two amazing books on this case, okay? So the first one is called Killing for Pleasure by Debbie Marshall. She has been a journalist for over 20 years, specializes in crime.

And I mean, even her writing this book took five years and it's the wildest story. I mean, she traveled everywhere, talked to witnesses, really put so much detail into this book. It's insane. And on top of that, in the process of writing her house was burnt down. Not by like a killer, okay, he's looking at me like, oh my god, it was arson. No, I think it was like a natural reason, but she lost a bunch of transcripts. You know, pictures, her progress, her manuscript, she my god, it was arson. No, I think it was like a natural reason, but she lost a bunch of transcripts. Pictures, her progress, her manuscript, she just completely lost it all.

And somehow got it together and still wrote this book. That is, I mean, the amount of detail in this book is insane. If I were to tell you every single detail, we would be here until 2022. It's gnarly. She also does a lot of in-depth psychological analysis of the killers, which I found fascinating.

And the second book is called Snow Town. The Bodies in the Barrel murders by Jeremy Pudney. Really good. I mean he's like a top-notch storyteller. I don't know what else to say other than. I really couldn't just put it down. So definitely check out both of these books and let's get on to the disclaimers. I almost never do disclaimers because you know, I mean the title of this podcast is run mango things get run in here But because it's such a controversial case. I just have to put it out there number one Pedophilia there's gonna be a lot of that in today's story and pedophiles come in all shapes and sizes You know sometimes they're gay sometimes they're straight. Doesn't matter a pedophile is a pedophile, right? And then number two, you know the fact that I even have to say this because there are like one or two people out there

That might be listening to this that have no critical thinking skills, okay? There are really bad people in this story that happen to be gay. There are really bad people in this story that happen to be transgender. Are they a reflection of transgender or gay people? Because most of the cases that we do are evil straight people. Does that mean all straight people are evil? No, like just straight people. Does that mean all straight people are evil? No, like just use your brain, right? And then the third one is that this is really truly a case where victims are not the poster child of perfection. Like these are not objectively good people. They don't light up the room when they walk in. They're not like the sweetestest can be, sweetest apple pie. They're not any of that, okay? But they're still victims. You can be a bad person and

still fall victim to a heinous crime. But that doesn't mean that you should be brutally tortured, murdered, dismembered, and cannibalized. And this is also not a story of vigilante justice. Now, let's get into the cast of characters. There are so many people involved. I'm gonna try to make it as concise as possible. The main character in today's story is John Bunting. This guy is... this guy's weird. This is the Chihuahua guy, okay? So he was born an only child to a very, very poor family. Now his parents were really strict in the house. That was like the one thing that is prominent about his upbringing. His mom, Jan, she ran

that place. She ran that house. She was a clean freak. She possibly had OCD, like everything had a place, and if it wasn't in the place she would freak out and possibly slap you. That was like the vibes Jen was giving. Now the house itself was considered very sterile, not just clean. It wasn't really a place that you would maybe think a child is growing up in. It gives very much furniture showroom, hospital vibes. It's's not a loving environment. She never smiled much. Wasn't that maternal? And so for that reason, John was closer to his dad.

But still, his dad was like, okay, well, anything your mom says, that's the way we gotta do it, because she's terrifying. Side note, this family has a ton of random disasters, like just really bad luck overall. So John's dad, his favorite thing was playing the guitar. Every day he goes to work, his favorite thing was playing the guitar. Everyday he goes to work. He comes home, plays the guitar. That's the only thing that gives him some solace in life.

But at work, his fingers, all of them. They were just chopped off by machinery. Whoa. Yeah. So he falls into this depression because he can't have the one escape from his life, which is playing the guitar, because his fingers were chopped off. John was also born without a sense of smell. Just no smell. He can't smell stuff.

He would go around and like restaurants and be like, describe the smell to me. That means he can't really taste much either. Yes, that's why he loved his food extremely spicy. Everything, that's it. He just ate spicy, spicy, spicy food. Okay. Wow. So they did not have money, but they tried, you know? They took John on vacations, they didn't spoil him,

but they wanted to have him to have like a, you know, middle class upbringing, even though they weren't making middle class money. Now the only problem that the parents really had is that John was just so freaking messy. He was so annoying, every time you tell him, clean your room, what does he do? He just hides all of his trash in his dresser. Nothing's clean. Here's the rosin in messy. He was so annoying, every time you tell him, clean your room. What does he do? He just hides all of his trash in his dresser. Nothing's clean. He's throws it in there.

So what does Jan do? His mom goes storms into his room, opens up the dressers, and then just piles it all on to the ground. I mean, I feel like I've had this happen to me a million times, right, when I was growing up. So then all of his trash would now be on his ground, and he hated his mom for this. Just despised her. Not because he had to clean, but because he felt like he had no privacy and that bothered him a lot. Whenever he did get private time, he would build nine of the science guys in his backyard. Like he would run these experiments, just mix chemicals together.

Whatever you could get his hands on, break fluid, chlorine for the pool, you know, drop a spider in and he loved watching insects disintegrate in the acid that he made. Just loved it. Like got his rockers off on it. Just bizarre dude. But for him, it wasn't just fascinating. It was hilarious. He would laugh while he did this. So he would throw a spider in and he would giggle. He would chuckle. I'm terrified. So when he's eight years old, according to John, so this hasn't been proven, but you'll see why I say according to John later, right?

He goes over to a friend's house, John is eight years old, and that friend has a super scary older brother, whose friends all just happen to be there. So they're terrified, right? And the older boys decide, well, wouldn't it be a blast? Wouldn't it be just a stellar time if we kidnapped John and my little brother tie them up and sort ofize them. Gangraped them, these children, these eight-year-olds. And that's exactly what they do. So John is like bawling his eyes out. He's confused and he's looking at his friend like,

why aren't you saying anything? This is your brother! What's going on? looking at his friend like why aren't you saying anything this is your brother what's going on apparently His friend has been raped by his brother for years at this point and is terrified has never said anything So they endure this torture. They have cigarettes burned on their skin. I mean it was humiliating They said you're being conditioned. They called it a party like are you guys enjoying this party? That was a gang rape, you know, so then the friend's dad walks in on them. I mean, what would you imagine this adult do? Probably freak out, call the cops, like do something. He just said, oh my god, stop it right now, let the boys go. So this dad, he drives John to the hospital.

I don't know why I thought the dad was gonna... Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we haven't lost that much hope in society yet. I mean... Yeah, we did. Okay, so then the dad takes John to the hospital and then drops him back off at home. And he's terrified. Like, he's all bandaged up. He's been punched in the face during all of this.

He has been sotomized. Like, there's just so much going on. He's eight years old. He comes in through the front door. And his mom looks at him and smacks him across the face. You're late. And he lies. He says, well, I fell off my bike and I went to the hospital and that's why I'm late.

Never tells his parents. Never fesses up to the truth. You know, I think that goes to show he just did not have trust in his family. And so the boy's still harassing afterwards. They keep chasing him around the park, park telling him if we catch you next time We're gonna kill you. I mean we can only assume how crazy and how scary this must have been now He does tell this story to a ton of people growing up. It's his favorite story to tell but most of the time the ending was different So instead of him, you know going home and getting smacked by his mom

He said that the dad would run in and everyone started scadadling, okay? These older teenage boys they ran out of the house and the main rapist he was hit by a truck and died before John could get his revenge. So it kind of gives it like a more of a movie ending. So as John gets older his parents start finding some strange stuff, okay? Not that he tortured spiders, that's not what he finds out. They find that he had dug a tunnel under their house a five foot by 13 feet tunnel he's trying to prison break I mean I don't know they even reinforced it with brick and wood like there was bricks in there there was wood in there is it going somewhere no he's just hanging out. It's like a bunker. Oh.

So it's like, what are you doing with this bunker? So they get so mad they make him fill it in. And he's pissed by this. So he's like, well, if I can't hang out in my bunker, I'm going to go somewhere else. So what does John do? He decides that he's going to start hanging out with a 40-year-old man by the name of Benny, OK?

Now this Benny character is fascinating just bizarre Fascinating in the worst way possible. They start bonding. He's like 12, okay? John's like 12. They start bonding over their sexual assaults Benny says listen when I was young when I was your age my dad repeatedly raped me and he even chopped off my toes Do you want to see me? Like I'm not laughing. I'm not laughing. I'm laughing because your face this reaction was too much on that one. He was like full mouth open on his chin. Okay, so he's like, yeah, do you want to see? He even chopped off my toes. So they form a weird partnership, a very bizarre partnership. Benny says, how about this? I'm gonna protect you from the older kids because I'm a 40-year-old man, okay? These little 16-year-olds, they ain't got nothing on me. I'm tough. man, okay? These little 16 year olds, they ain't got nothing on me. I'm tough. But what you're going to do is you're going to go out there in the streets and you're going to

bait old pedophiles who work in the dark alleyways. You're going to pretend to be a minor sex worker. Oh yeah. And you're going to say, hey, come around the corner and I'll, you know, give you something fun. You're going to do that. And guess who's going to be around the corner? Me. And guess what we're going we're gonna do We're gonna beat them up. That's a weird operation. They're doing so that's pretty much what they do in their past time That is what you know John does most of his free time. They rob them. Yeah, but they don't take that much money Which this becomes kind of like a trend in John's life like he'll really brutally assault and murder people and Like he'll really brutally assault and murder people and they do take the money so it seems like oh, it's this money motivated But it's really not so it may be the map for funsy's like that's the vibe. This is given right the belief is that they deserve it They're looking for you know underage kids to do it with their pedophiles

So yeah John would later brag to all of his friends that some of these people were murdered But we have no idea if this is true So we don't know if John actually started killing people way earlier in his life than we actually know of So then more trauma happens in John's life. His only friend that is around his age commits suicide So then John is just traumatized and Then at 17 years old, John has a child. Just like, has a baby. Doesn't tell his parents, right?

The girlfriend moved in with her next boyfriend and told the next boyfriend, oh, this is your baby, even though it was John's baby, right? So the guy just kinda goes along with it, but when he finds out that that's not his baby and it's actually John's baby, he physically and sexually assaults both the girlfriend and the little baby.

So now we're just talking generations of sexual abuse, right? And the book goes in depth, killing for pleasure goes in depth on like why this is, you know? I mean, these are all people that are on welfare. The system really didn't care about them. They just threw them in like a bad part of town and was like, okay, you stay here and figure it out. So then the little baby, they moved from Australia to the United Kingdom and he never

seized his child again. So all John really has left is a 40 year old bunny and they just want to up the ante, they start breaking into pedophiles homes, smashing their stuff, killing their cats, they would skin their cats and hang them on the porch. Like these pedophiles pets. They would then poop on the ground and use their poop to write the F-slur on these pedophiles walls. And they never get arrested. So John's getting cocky.

He's like, are you kidding me? Like I can just go around killing cats and like writing slurs and poop and I'm not going to get arrested. The cops are idiots. This is like an idea that he's going to carry with the rest of his life. Cops are idiots. So Benny keeps telling him, you know what? All petos deserve to die.

They deserve this. We need to get rid of them. That is our purpose in life. Is to get rid of petos. And just like that, Benny dies. He's not a peto. Well, only said I know of. He had throat cancer, so he dies like a brobtually.

Just out of nowhere. And Benny, as John is devastated, this is like his father figure. This is someone who knew his deepest darkest secrets and now he's gone. So he starts just kind of floating through life, right? So he works briefly at a crematorium. Just talked nonstop about how much he loved dead bodies. Thought it was a freaking blast. Like the only guy excited to go work at a crematorium was him. He gets a new hobby. He's like, you know what, I'm gonna collect things. Starts collecting guns under his bed.

Books on poison. He was like, I love poison. Love the idea of making explosives at home. Wanted to learn as much as he could about knives. Like he just really loved just weapons of destruction. Seems like he starts experimenting with a gun. had never shot it before he had never really hurt something with a gun so he grabs this dog that he doesn't like I think it was like a neighbor's dog right brings him into a room and just shoots the dog and

sees the blood the fur just everything and he just didn't like it not because he didn't like violence but he said it was too quick, he wanted it to last longer. Guns are impersonal, that's why a lot of serial killers actually don't use guns. And he grabbed a pig and he decided, well, let me do something to this pig. So he brings the pig into his shed and stuck the steel rods into the pig until it's slowly blood to death. And then he decapitated the pig for funsies just for the fun of it and he would tell anyone anyone that he could and they'd be like no way this is true like there's

just no way and the way that he talks about it like no i don't believe this so they don't believe it but then on the flip side they're like well if that's not true is it more alarming that someone would come up with stuff like this like i, I don't know what's worse. That someone actually does it or someone has like the creativity and the need to tell us that they did this. It's just bizarre. He also had other wild stories that he would non-stop tell people. For example, he claimed that one of his former girlfriends was sexually abused.

So what does he do about it? He gets pissed and he kidnaps a guy who's sexually abused his girlfriend and strangles him in the car. And he gets his friend to drive. Now, John's in the back seat with this dead body, this dead, you know, abuser, and starts dismembering him in the car, in the moving vehicle, and slowly through the highway, which is open the window and toss him out piece by piece. All the way to Melbourne, he said, okay, just toss, toss, toss. Do you feel like these are true or just he's making up stories? I think maybe he did hurt the guy.

I think like maybe there's some truth to it. Kind of like how, you know, the original story of how he claimed he was abuse later on to psychiatrist is that he went home, the kid stole bullied him, but then later on he adds that weird ending, like that movie ending. So I think maybe he did like beat up the guy But I don't think he'd dismembered him and then like so we shouldn't believe everything he said yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he said from Adelaide to Melbourne just toss toss toss

You know like I don't know this was his favorite story He loved that the whole card turned sticky red. That's what he would say super funny stuff It's fascinating that he finds all of this super funny. Then he has the spider wall. Okay, this is his prized room. It's going to follow him from house to house because he moves a lot. He's got an actual spider wall where he collects these spiders and puts their venom into things like loves keeping spiders like dead spiders and their venom. Like actually. But then he also has something called a rock spider wall.

And I was like, ooh, that's probably like a different type of spider that I don't know about, because I don't know anything about spiders, right? But apparently rock spider, according to Google, is Australian slang for child molester, pedophile. I believe it's also a slang in South Africa, but I'm not sure what it means in South Africa. But in Australia, it means child molester.

Rock Spice. Yes. What an interesting thing. Yes. So if you look like really deep on air vendingtonary, it's like because they can get into small cracks or something. Hmm. So yes, it's like a spider room with this rock spider wall.

So it's pretty much just pictures of local people that he believes are pedophiles, right? Which, okay, you're like, okay, it's like a weird hobby, but maybe I'm not like a hundred percent against it. I don't know, right? If you're on the fence about it, let me just throw in this extra information. Some of these people were not pedophiles. A lot of these people were just gay men in the neighborhood, but he had no distinction in his mind between a gay person and a pedophile. He believed all gay people were pedophiles and all pedophiles were gay. Like, they were just, yeah. So a lot of these were just innocent gay men on his wall. And he would do this thing where he would add more people. And according to the book, him and his friends would sit

around and they'd randomly pick a person, find out his phone number and start screaming at them through the phone. Like you're a dirty piece of your breathing valuable oxygen, I'm gonna kill you in a day, you better watch out and then just like home of fibic, slur after slur after slur. He also had some tooth fairies on the wall, that's what he called them. So if a female knows about sexual abuse and they do nothing to stop it, he calls them tooth fairies. And they too deserve to die. So these are typically the moms of the children that are abused.

So then he meets his first wife, Veronica, right? She was 18 when they meet. He's 21. She had a learning disability. She had only graduated from the eighth grade. And they were working at this like workshop together. Started sharing lunch breaks, sandwich buddies. and then they just like kind of got married I mean it was just like one of those anti-climactic things at first Veronica was really rude

She never never got mail attention and he was just so gentle She's half death blind in one eye, you know the school she went to they didn't care So she was practically illiterate, could not read or write, but John was not only interested, he was so sweet to her. So how could you not love him? That's Veronica's perspective. So they get engaged within months of knowing each other, and at first they have this very normal relationship.

They go to the beach, they go watch movies together, and then John gets a new job at a slaughterhouse and every day he comes home hands stained in blood and he just loves it that's all he talks about like Veronica she loves pretty things like she loves drawing birds butterflies like that's her jam she likes color she likes pink you know pastels and this guy's coming home like you'll never guess the intestines that I took out of this one today. And just describing an intense detail in his hands

or just red tinted, and she's terrified. Just terrified. But what can she do? So she just kind of sticks it out with him, and they live together in this little housing complex. Now, in comes a Robert Wagner. This is another important person. So we're gonna start with his childhood. Robert Wagner was born into a really rough family. His dad

had left the family when he was only nine months old, he was dyslexic, and the school didn't care. Like the school was like, oh yeah, it sucks to be you, so he never really learned how to read or write. Now, Robert's mom has this new boyfriend who beats up Robert, just nonstop. Just like every day Robert comes home from school, he gets a beating for no reason. It could be like the smallest thing in the world. And then at school, he gets bullied for having a learning disability. So he's just getting beat at every stage of his life on a daily basis.

And around the time that he is 8 years old, very similar to John, the same age, a family friend, a teenage boy sexually assaults him. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and I just want to say we are gearing up for a cross-country move in the next couple of weeks. So yeah, I would say that there's something interfering with my happiness, okay? Something that's preventing me from achieving my goals, which is the amount of packing and stress that comes with moving. And I know that this summer you guys are busy too, whether you guys are moving, whether you guys are just trying to enjoy your summer, trying to travel more, sometimes it helps to talk to someone and better help assess your needs and match you with your own license

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In fact, so many people have been using better help that they're actually recruiting additional therapists in all 50 states. So for you guys, Rod and Mangle listeners, you can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash rotten. And we can have sympathy for these people when they're children, you know? Like we can, we can hate what they do as adults, but still have sympathy for the child, you know He tries to commit suicide for the first time at eight years old I mean he was traumatized So after that he struggles a lot more. He just drops out of school. Can't focus starts hanging out with older people

And one of them being Vanessa Lane So I'm gonna call her Vanessa and I'm gonna refer to her as her because that's what Wikipedia lists her as Vanessa But her birth name was Barry Lane. So I've seen some sources that refer to Vanessa's Barry and keep he him So Vanessa is a transgender woman and ever since she was young I mean she had a rough childhood too, right? So she was abused by her alcoholic father witnessed her mom getting beat Just even when her mom was pregnant was just getting beat up. I mean, by the time that she's nine years old, she accepts,

I'm born in the wrong body. Like, I don't really like what's going on right now. So she starts dressing the way that she wants to, which then causes her to get bullied by a ton of people, because they just, I don't know, maybe they're evil, maybe they didn't understand. I don't really know. So she's bullied, and she just learns to grow like a hardened shell.

The big problem with Vanessa though is that she was obsessed with little boys. So by the time that she's 25 years old, she gets arrested for sexually assaulting 12 year old boys. And she is 25 years old. So she is a pedophile, right? Now, the judge states, I understand that you're having identity. She's like, get it, right? But that does not give you the right to behave in this way It just doesn't make sense. It's not okay You can't use that as an excuse and Vanessa went on to like blame her family

She was like well, it's my family's fault that I ended up this way to make matters worse She gets placed into a male prison and people just spit on her food They hate her for every reason you know the fact that she as Vanessa, the fact that she is a child molester, which that part makes sense. It's common in prisons, but they just give her the hardest time ever. So when she gets out, she's just, I mean, she's trying to chat out boys on the street still. She has not learned her lesson at all whatsoever. If anyone even looked at her, if anyone side-eyed her like, hey, you look 25.

What are you doing talking to this 80-year-old? She would say, what are you talking about? I'm only talking to them. So that is when she be friends, Robert. And how old is Robert? He's 13. She's like close to her 40s. She's like in her 30s at this point. And they start getting sexually involved. So she's like buying them 30s at this point and they start getting sexually involved So she's like buying them all these gifts and Robert decides you know what fork this I'm getting beat up at home I'm getting beat up at school. I'm gonna quit all of that. I'm gonna move in with you Vanessa So he tells his mom and his mom so upset like what are you talking about?

So he runs away with her. They don't talk for years until like Robert is like 18 years old And later Robert would tell her well, it's because Vanessa won't let me talk to you. She doesn't like it I'm not allowed to talk to you. They get a house together through government assistance right in front of an elementary school So this is government housing. I don't know how they did not check her criminal record because I mean Vanessa her whole thing was She like to look through the window during recess times to watch these kids play. So the both of them they're just living off of disability. Neither of them have jobs. The house is a mess. They leave poo on the ground. Like their pets just poop all over the floor. They leave it. It's infested with flies and insects and

dishes everywhere. There are dirty dishes on the floor that they'll just leave. Just on the floor. they'll just leave. Just on the floor. And so Robert just gets even weirder. Yeah, okay, if you thought this story couldn't get worse, it does because Robert loves Hitler. I'm just gonna put it out there real quick. It's so far, this just really...

It sounds fake, right? It sounds fake. So Robert loves Hitler, gets a dog, names the dog Adolf, has a computer screensaver that says Adolf Hitler still alive and he wants to get a swastika tattooed on his forehead. But no tattoo artist is willing to do that, thank God. So I mean that kind of tampers his plans, he's a little bit upset. At home they would have this stereo. And the only thing that he would play is like heavy, heavy funeral music. Just like you know those organs, like that you know, like you just hear it and you're like,

oh, that's some funeral music right there. Okay, so you think it can't get weirder, right? But like imagine you're there a neighbor. His favorite thing, Robert's favorite thing was to tell his neighbor and it was like a flex, you know, like your neighbor's flexing on you. But the flex was, hey, did you know that we have sex with our doberman? The neighbor's like, what are you talking about? What?

What is wrong with you? Jesus, weease. He was just so proud of it. Robert was like, yeah, I forked a doberman. And it's actually through a neighbor of theirs that they get introduced to John and Veronica, who live really close by, right? So since most of them are mainly on disability, they're bored. They just hang out a lot.

You know, they're like, let's go to John and Veronica's. Let's go to Vanessa's. They just go back and forth and that's where the real problems start. Immediately, Robert and John, just are best friends for life, okay? Robert is pretty physically big. Like he's a big dude. John is short. He's like a PTA dad.

I told you he's got like that dad bod. There was actually a movie called Snowtown that was released. And a lot of people were like, oh my god, he looks like Jack Black, which is weird. But um, so just to give you an example, visually speaking. And Robert is just enamored by John. Things he is the smartest thing since Einstein, just like how you are so smart with what's going on, anytime that John opens his mouth, Robert could be in the other room, just brushes

out. Just like I need to hear every single thing he says, because everything he says is just fricking straight up knowledge. And Robert doesn't even care that John is incredibly disrespectful to Vanessa. Anytime that they would hang out in like a new neighbor walked by, John would be like, oh yeah, come and meet this freak

pointing at Vanessa. Oh yeah, because he doesn't like us. Yeah, exactly. But Robert doesn't care. The book describes killing for pleasure, describes Robert as being, and I quote, a nasty piece of work, permanently sour in the face, like he's been pickled in vinegar. Very descriptive, yeah. So then we have a third friend, okay? This is gonna be the three best friends, right? Now, this is another neighbor. Doesn't have a strong education, even more so than the

other two right? Everyone calls him um just not that sharp I guess. They use a lot meaner words, but just not that sharp and his whole life he's just been considered a follower. According to the book he just sits in a corner and watches life pass by. That's his favorite thing to do. So he meets a woman who just moved in nearby and her name is Elizabeth But we're gonna call her Liz sinclair and she had a super rough life She had multiple children by multiple men and they always were just bouncing in and out of state care in and out of foster care Just not great and at first when she moved in she said man I want to marry John, but he's married to Veronica

You know John bunting she had her eyes on John, but he hated her. John hated her? Yeah, because she had, she allegedly had her bees. So since that point, he called her a, and I quote, dirty slut. So after John rejects Liz, she starts, you know, dating his weaker friend, Mark Hayden, and they get married and she becomes Liz Hayden. Now, Mark wasden, and they get married and she becomes Liz Hayden. Now, Mark was in in love.

Just not really. Neither was Liz, it seems, but he just wanted Liz to have his babies. Disposar. So Liz moves in with all of her kids. Mark hates the kids. Just like locks them in the room. Won't even let them out to use the bathroom so they're constantly peeing their beds. And guess what? Yeah, the parents don't clean it. So they're just sleeping in these. You're in soaked bedsheets every single night. The windows boarded up so they can't run away. And you beat them so much that anytime Mark is home, the kids just hide under the table

and they would just get beat up for no reason. Like if he finds one piece of hair in his fully invested house, he'll just beat him up. Like he's just looking for a reason. They never have food. The house is disgusting. Like it's just bad. So these three people, I mean, they get together and they've got time, they're bored,

and they've got this hatred for the world. They, I mean, I'm gonna be real with you. They were dealt really f**king cards at birth. Really f**king cards. So they just kind of like stew in this hate together the three of them, you know They're not a good influence. So John buys this BMW mic BMW bike B and W bike yeah, what yeah, like a motorcycle he's like obsessed with it Okay, he's like this is this a male bike right and how yeah and immediately he stops making payments on it

So of course they're coming to repo it. They're like, we're gonna take your freaking bike. But when they come, John forces all of his friends to make a human barrier in front of the motorcycle. And then they're like, get the house. So they start blasting this repo guy, which is water, cursing him, like threatening to beat him up.

Like that's just kind of the life that they're living, you know? Now, Robert and Vanessa become friends with a young boy named Clinton, Trisee, Trisee's, right? Who is 17 years old. This is gonna be kind of the, well let me tell you about Clinton's life real quick. Because there's a lot of backstory that needs to be said.

Clinton, his whole life, I mean, he's been in and out of foster care. He has family members that care deeply about him But I think this was one of those situations where they were all dealt cards They just couldn't take care of him and the state believed that so they would take him in they would take him out You know his whole life is just in and out of this system and he wanted stability So when he finds you know Vanessa and Robert they seem so sweet and they're so accepting that he's gay So why not so he starts spending a lot of time with them They nickname him happy pants cuz he was so happy like he was just like a happy go lucky dude

Now John Bunting hates him Because in John sick twisted idiotic mind, you know like I said he believes that gay people are Petaphales they're the same thing. don't think he he probably just hates gay people i think so yeah i think he is just homophobic yeah yeah yeah so there is a speculation that maybe john was gay uh... so there are a lot of serial killers who are so angry and they project their own like insecurities and they will kill people who they believe so like in the book killing for pleasure she talks about how maybe he was feeling these sexual urges against men and he hates it so much

that instead of like killing that urge somehow because you can't he kills gay men and feels like well I'm obviously not gay if I kill gay men like kind of that feeling I mean I believe that I could see it and so yeah he's like he's like well, you can't be You can't be one without the other so if Clinton is gay, then he's a pedophile I mean never mind that he's 17, but whatever. We're just gonna go with it So one day John and Veronica as a couple they're going over to Roberts place, right? Now Veronica hates going over there. She's like it smells John I don't like it there and after dinner they just all leave her over to Robert's place, right? Now, Veronica hates going over there. She's like, it smells, John.

I don't like it there. And after a dinner, they just all leave her. She's like, what am I doing alone in this house? That's not even mine. I could just be in my house right now. And it smells like cat piss everywhere. I just don't, and she falls asleep on the couch watching TV.

And she wakes up the next morning, she goes home. And from that point on, she doesn't really think it's a coincidence, but she does notice that Clinton has disappeared. His sister was worried, you know? He wasn't picking up, so Clinton's sister was calling all these people, but nobody had any idea where he was. And at this point, Vanessa comes over. So this is Robert's girlfriend.

Robert's girlfriend goes to John's girlfriend. Veronica says, can I tell you something? Yeah, sure. Now, according to the book, this is kind of important. Vanessa would have this problem where she would kind of tell people that she was, like, she lied a lot. Some examples in the book were that she would lie about being on her period or that she was pregnant. Right? And keep this in mind when we go into the next part.

So she goes over to Veronica and tells her that she's scared. I'm scared. Please don't tell your boyfriend John because I'm terrified. He's going to kill me. Why would my boyfriend kill you? Well, I help them kill a guy and I help them get rid of the body. Do you remember happy pants? Well, here's what happened. Your boyfriend, John. Your husband, John, snuck up behind happy pants and hit him in the head with like this metal rod and just hit him hit him so hard that the front of his skull even cracked I mean it was bad they threw his body into the car and we buried him in the woods So she's like crying shaking sobbing while she's telling this story and she keeps saying please don't tell John

He's gonna kill me if he knows that I'm not being silent. So what does Veronica immediately do? Tell John. Oh my God. And so at first he ignores it, but then he just straight up tells her, yeah, Veronica babe, like I did that, I killed him. But the whole time, he's like,

God, I'm so pissed off at Vanessa. She can't even, you know, keep her mouth shut, disgusting. So John tells his wife, if you tell anyone, you'll end up just like him, okay? So shut the fork up. Not too long after, farmers find Clinton's body. They find his skeletal remains that have been ravaged by wild animals. They call the cops.

They find out that this is an adult male, probably around like 18 years old, right? Caucasian, they do a facial reconstruction, release it with a $100,000 award on anybody who knows this person but there was no missing files report match so they just kind of get over it a woman does call years later saying that's my son Clinton that's my son please it's my son Clinton they look I mean the sketch like the reconstruction and Clinton they look similar and they look into it but for whatever reason forensics was like oh, I don't think they're the same person

So it'll be another five years until they find out the truth So after they murder Clinton their first murder victim They've got this new favorite pastime right they start digging a hole in the backyard of Johns house Listen, this is like the Dean Coral Candyman situation if you ever know anyone who has a new hobby all of a sudden that's digging holes, especially at night, they're killing people, okay, you gotta call the cops, you gotta call, I don't know, crime stoppers, you gotta do something. Don't go near the hole, for sure.

And it's not just like a little dig. You know, John tells Veronica, maybe I wanna do a bunker in there, maybe a man cave, but she never asks. She's like one of those wives that don't really, you know, ask, it's very clear who's in charge here, right? And he becomes obsessive, starts buying books on tunnels and holes and even though Robert is much larger than John, John is just standing there like Robert get the bricks and Robert would

get the bricks and just dig deeper and put in the bricks just doing the most. John would also love bringing people in and out of the house, typically young druggies, right? And he would sit them down and he would pop up his chest and start lecturing them. You know, at Urej, I was doing this and da da da da da. Just like really giving them, I mean, not bad advice, you know, get off the drugs, but it almost seemed like he got off on lecturing people. Veronica thought it was weird. Why are you bringing these strangers in our house? Like you're not even, what's the incentive?

You're not like trying to do good work, I don't get it. So according to the book, he believes that he was saving the world one step at a time. Save in the drugies, you know, these young drug obsessed teens, he's saving the children from the pedophiles and I don't know, his got a sick twisted mind. So around this time, his relationship with Veronica starts falling apart. I mean, it was a strange relationship to begin with, they had sex, but Veronica hated it. She said that sex is overrated. Just overrated.

They never really talked about things and he started becoming incredibly abusive, started throwing plates at her. Just was like you get a plate and would throw it, chuck it at her face. So then enter into the scene Elizabeth Harvey. There's a lot of people I'm sorry, right? These are all important. I've tried to like make it as bones as I could so that I don't over complicate it but Elizabeth Harvey she's pivotal in this story and she had a really rough life okay so she had nobody by the time that she was in her 20 she was like nobody her mom was evil so Elizabeth's mom her entire life kept telling her you should have ended up in the abortion bucket. When I was pregnant with you Elizabeth, I threw myself off of high chairs, I threw myself

off the counter, I threw myself off the wardrobe, but I never could miscarry. You should have been in the abortion bucket. That's what she kept telling Elizabeth. It was always Elizabeth's fault, so then Elizabeth gets a stepdad, right? Her mom gets remarried. And this guy's a creep. Forced her to call him dad, but also forced her to do sexual things with him.

He would grow per. And the first time it happened, Elizabeth told her mom what happened. And even Elizabeth at that age, she had no idea what happened. She was just like, this hurts down here. Like, I don't know what's going on. And her mom slapped her in the face. And that's important to know that she was that young.

She did not realize truly what had happened. And her mom slapped her in the face and calls her a little slut. So by the time that Elizabeth's a teenager, I mean, she's being repeatedly raped by her stepdad. Anytime she tries to tell her mom, her mom accuses her of being a slut that's trying to steal her boyfriend. And to get back at her, Elizabeth, when she

turns 15, she gets her first boyfriend ever. And what does her mom do? Immediately sleeps with her boyfriend. Who is 15, okay? So, I mean, she's a pedophile too. What the fork's going on. So by the time that Elizabeth is 23, she's a single mom, she has a son named Troy. He becomes important later, right? Just keep it, keep that out there. And she starts looking for a job. She needs to like make money to support this child, and she sees an ad for a housekeeper. Goes to the interview, she's like, I need this job, right? meets the owner of the restaurant that she's supposed to be working for if she gets this job. And his name is Spro's Vlasakis.

He's like Greek, right? Very fancy name. And the interview was more of a date. Like they had wine, they dined each other. I mean, she gets the job, but she never really starts working. I mean, it's weird. He's 17 years older, and he's really into her. So she's just kind of sticking around as like a girlfriend, but like getting paid for it.

And this guy, he's the type of guy that takes charge. He runs this restaurant, tells his employees exactly what to do, a little bit bossy, a little bit scary, but she feels like she needs that. This is stability and he loves Troy like his own. And so when Spyros, you know, he, am I saying that right? I feel like I am, I hope so. I just looked it up on Google, it's Spiros. Not Spyros, which makes sense.

Spiros is a lot more attractive of a name, okay? So Spiros, when he proposes, she accepts, and they're married within three months of meeting. And on their wedding night, she's expecting just roses. This is the life that she's been just roses. This is this is the life that she's been dreaming for. Finally, some stability. She hasn't had that her whole life and Spiro's viciously rapes her. But she tries to reason with it, you know, she's like, maybe it's just like this time. Like, I mean, we're married now. It's too late. Maybe he's like really drunk.

Besides, she can't afford to handle Troy alone. And as a mom, she's like, I need to do what's best for my kid. So she stays. Now, there's a lot of trouble in this relationship, mainly because of Troy at first. Spiros loves him, but Troy is terrifying. Even at three years old, he's cursing. So he's like saying things like, oh,

I've been the fucking dog, her mom, you you know and by the time that he's like five he starts like hitting her if she doesn't give him the food that she wants and not like babies slapping you around but like truly like trying to punch her and then by the time that he six he starts trying to light his bed on fire so they take him to a doctor a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist is like oh yeah I used to light fires too. Like what? Ooh, the psychiatrist used to light fire. Yeah, the psychiatrist is like, it's really not a big deal.

I used to light fires until I was like 10. Huh, okay. What? So they're like, what the hell is wrong with the psychiatrist? So they never go back, but at the same time Troy, he's really smart, just caring, loving, when he wants to be. And Elizabeth starts noticing that whenever she tries to leave the house, he hates it. He hates it. Which starts screaming, holding on to her legs for dear life.

And she doesn't think much of it, because she gets pregnant. You know, she was continuously raped by her husband, and she gets pregnant with his son. And she names him Jamie. Jamie is going to be so important, okay? So when Jamie is born, there's about a three year age difference between Jamie and Troy. Now, Elizabeth calls Jamie, the professor.

Cute nickname, right? Yeah, because of how he like gathered things in the backyard, he would always put them together like a little inventor, like just really smart, super smart kid, always the teachers pet, and he had a much more soft behavior than Troy. Never really acted out for the early years of his life, and he didn't get along with his half brother. He just didn't get along with Troy. They were always fighting for mom's attention, and it just got intense. Troy would like

do things like throw Jamie up against a wall and like hold a knife up to him and threaten him, like you better not tell mom So then she gets pregnant again with another son. So now she's got three sons in this house, and it's just wild So she decides, I'm gonna change my life She gets her tubes tied and starts applying to go to college, right? She's like I gotta I gotta support these kids and I she's trying to get away from Spiros. Let's be honest, right? So she gets into college now even with her tube tied Somehow she gets pregnant again So she's forced to drop out and she tries raising these kids to the best of her ability

We later find out that she does have bipolar disorder that was Untreated unmedicated just everything right like never really addressed so she she wasn't Objectively the best mom, but she tried. And there was just a lot of f**king cards dealt. There were a lot of evil forces at play. Jamie is also really uncomfortable with his dad. Jamie seems to only love his mom, because his dad's bureaus touches him in his private parts. And the rest of the sons are abused too, including Troy. That's why he loved Troy so much, you know? And the third son, I mean, I think the first time

that Elizabeth felt like something was wrong was when the third son, as a little infant, was like grinding on teddy bears. So she's like, what is happening with my child? And the doctors, they had no idea, they were like, oh, he's just going to get over it. Maybe it's a phase. But now, in in hindsight it seems like maybe it was you know a symptom of probably an effect of the abuse So by the time that Jamie's seven Spiros just drops dead of a heart attack

just like drop-stead I mean I'm not mad about it, but he just drops dead. It was sudden a lot of sudden deaths So then Elizabeth gets married, remarried, to a man by the name of Marcus. There's a lot of people, I'm sorry, okay? But they're all interconnected. That's like the crazy thing. This is not just like people going around

killing random people. These are people killing the closest people to them. So then Marcus has a son from a previous marriage by the name of David. So Jamie, his half brother is Troy, and his stepbrother is David. So they've got this blended family, but the marriage is rocky, okay? So it seems like Elizabeth just married Marcus for the stability. All they do is fight, so that just kind of goes out the window.

They move 23 times. It's just like, they just move nonstop. It was just really intense, and she would go off in her own world a lot of the times. Just like, they just moved nonstop. It was just really intense and she would go off in her own world a lot of the times. Meanwhile, her kids are just kind of like going through life, getting abused, getting bullied at school and it's not really being addressed. So during this time when she's just doing her own thing, something terrible is happening between her children. Troy is allegedly raping his half-brother Jamie regularly.

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order. Go to FunctionAbouty.com slash rotten to let them know that you heard about it from our show and get 20% off your order. FunctionAbouty.com slash rottin so Troy becomes the abuse to the abuser to Jamie and Jamie just doesn't have anyone to tell so eventually you know Elizabeth's barely home never watching the kids and that is when another evil man decides to take advantage of the situation his name is Jeffrey Payne and he's a neighbor right he loves sitting on his porch and watching the young boys play. Even tries to take pictures of them when nobody's looking, which is never really a problem since Elizabeth the mom is never around.

And his favorite, his absolute favorite, is 13-year-old Jamie, because he's half Greek. He's got these nice features and he just looks so passive. He looks like he's waiting for a father figure to just swoop up in his life and Jeffrey felt like he could be the perfect father figure. I mean the house was really a show. At 14 years old Troy tries to hang himself on the curtain rod like these kids need help. They need help. That's what they need, but they're not getting it from anywhere. Not the state, not the CPI, nobody. Nobody's giving them help. So Jeffrey tells Marcus, the dad of the boys, hey, why don't you let the boy sleep over. You see him, you know, kind of like frazzled lots going on over here, Elizabeth,

over home. Let me just handle the kids for a night. You get some R&R, do your thing, maybe like, drink a beer. Marcus is like, okay,, do your thing. Maybe like drink a beer Mark is like, okay fine. Whatever reason he allows it Don't let your kids sleep over at strange people's houses, but like Mark is like, okay fine So Jamie spends the night at Jeffries and Jeffrey forces him to watch porn while molesting him And threatens if you tell anyone I'm gonna get your brothers next now, he did not tell anyone because he felt like he was protecting his brothers when reality Jeffrey was assaulting the brothers as well. And the abuse only gets worse, so it starts from that,

then to watching hardcore porn, then he gets sotomized, and he's just like screaming at him while he's doing this like, shut up or I'll kill your mom, and this takes place near the every single day. And so of course you know Jamie starts falling apart, he starts missing school, he can't do anything, he starts showering non-stop until his skin would bleed. He just felt so dirty that he would just, he would shower for like three hours at a time until every part of his body was just covered in blood. He starts doing drugs because that's like the only way he's going to forget these things.

He has no one to talk to about it, you know? But it only starts getting worse because Vanessa is friends with Jeffrey. Remember Vanessa? The one that seduced Robert when Robert was like what 13 years old? They live in front of the middle school their friends with John and Vanessa's pissed Not because Jeffrey Payne is raping a young boy, but because why can't I share? So what does she do if she can't have Jamie then nobody can marches up to Elizabeth's house and says hi? Jeffrey Payne from down the Street is raping your kids.

In Elizabeth's shock, she's like, wait, who even are you? What are you saying? So Vanessa tells her, well, all the boys accept Troy. They're getting molested. And Jeffrey's part of this dark scam. It's like an auction for kids. Sometimes they even auction off dead boys for the necrophiliacs.

They go for about like $12 a boy. So your kids are being forced to be bent over and they'll like stick five dollars in their pants or something. So she's like saying all of this but it's not necessarily true. Keep that in mind, but she's just terrorizing Elizabeth, like just making her absolutely like she's frantic at this point. She has no idea what what to do so she calls the police and they take their absolute sweet time I mean they arrest Jeffrey but they let him go on bail and he's just their neighbor he's just sitting there just watching them at night he would go up to their windows and start terrorizing them like stalking them so Elizabeth is freaking out and Vanessa comes around again and she tells Vanessa like oh my god like we call the cops and you know this is what's happening and Vanessa says well

I know someone who can help you John Bunting is a good friend of mine and my boyfriend Robert they can help you they hate pedophiles So that's how they all get introduced okay? So she's playing this like double agent. Yeah which is bizarre. Because she wants to rape. Yeah like she is very interested in young boys but at the same time it seems like she wants to be accepted by this group of people. Yeah very fascinating. So Elizabeth I mean you can imagine how vulnerable of a state that she's in. She feels like she couldn't protect her kids. She is like suicidal at this point. She realizes when she confronts the kids, she realizes that her husband had been raping them too. Not Marcus, but Spiro's before

he died. Yeah. So Troy was like, I hate him so much. And she's like, I can't believe that my ex husband was raping me and his own sons. Like this what? Like she thought that she was going through all of the assault and all of the abuse so that she could give her kids a life. Turns out, like it was the worst thing possible. Meanwhile, Jamie, I mean, he's freaking out. Like how is the world working this way? You know, this guy molested me and the cops let him out. What kind of sick world do I live in like he has no trust in the police He has no trust in anything at this point because how does that happen? Why is nobody protecting us? In comes in John Bunting on that BMW motorcycle. Did you guys call for help?

And to Jamie this is like his knight in savior. This is, this is the dad that he never had. This is fucking Captain America. This is a hero. Like someone who cares, someone who wants to protect him, are you kidding? And that's how Elizabeth feels. So they start having these meetings in Elizabeth's kitchen. Mainly John Robert and Elizabeth

Sometimes the others would come like John's wife would come or you know Vanessa would come But they would just talk about how they're gonna take care of these people Who are these people? Well John says that he hates all pedophiles transgender people fat people intellectually disabled people all of these people he hates them all I don't know why he's so judgey both fat people, intellectually disabled people, all of these people, he hates them all. I don't know why he's so judgey. I mean, he really had nothing to offer. So like, I don't know what's going on over there, but Elizabeth doesn't care,

because he's scary enough for Jeffrey Payne. Jeffrey stops harassing the family when John starts coming into the picture. So immediately Elizabeth falls in love, and she's really quick to fall in love usually, right? So she just falls head over heels She's 13 years older than John, but she doesn't care She starts drinking coffee with them. They talk about pedophiles how they want to kill them all

They need to kill them all the police don't do anything about it the lost sucks. We're gonna kill them all And John starts feeding her these little seats Elizabeth, you know, you're so lucky. It could have been worse. They usually prey on single moms. Because their kids are so easy to get to. Well, you know, I've heard about some of these pedophiles. They'll stick batteries into the private areas of children. That's how about the tortures. Now, this is important not because it's just graphic or true. I don't think this was true. Maybe it is, but John probably didn't know these people, or that they were doing it. But it's this type of stuff that pushes

Elizabeth straight into John's open manipulative arms. Because he's saying, look at this horror that's out there. Look at all the scary things out there. Now guess who's the only person that can protect you? Me. But John's married has a wife. Yeah, but they just, they start getting it on. I mean, they start spending all day together. The man that's gonna protect her kids. They spend so much time together that she spends no time with the kids. And her youngest son is also assaulted by older teenage boys.

And now this is when, In Greece, you know, anger starts really boiling up because the cops tell her that they can't do anything because their youngest son is intellectually disabled, so he's not a credible witness to his own assault. And apparently the kids that had assaulted this young boy, they were friends of Jeffrey Pain. And while Jeffrey was in prison because he finally did get arrested, Jeffrey told them, keep the boys quote unquote

bent till I get out of jail. So John kicks out Veronica, his wife. He's like, okay bye now, and Elizabeth moves in. Honestly, Veronica was a little bit thankful. She was sick of the abuse from him. She missed living with her parents. It was just too much. So she moves out and Elizabeth moves in. And Jamie is obsessed. Jamie's like, yes, you know, this is amazing. You would follow him around everywhere. To give you perspective, Jamie is 14 years old, right? This is his hero, would even sleep on the living room floor just to be near his hero.

Like this is the guy that's gonna protect him. Someone who understands him and it's nice to see his mom in like a, would he perceive to be a healthy relationship at first? They're constantly holding hands, John Elizabeth. Anytime Elizabeth is like doing dishes, John would be there like I love you, Elizabeth, just all over.

Now, Jamie the porkette, he nervously asked John, will you be my dad? And John says yes. Jamie was never happier than in that moment. And he would do anything for John says yes. Jamie was never happier than in that moment. And he would do anything for John. Anything. He wanted to be just like John. Even if that means being a part of his missions.

Because John needs to save the world. He needs to get rid of the gays and the petos. That's his plan. Protect the kids he said. The only proper way to do that is death and violence. Anything else is not getting rid of them. It's a slap on the wrist. Again, it's speculated by professionals

that he didn't really care to save the world. He's a psychopathic killer who wants to kill people, but because he's so narcissistic and because he has this ego, he wants to put a meaning behind it. Because he thinks he'll feel better, you know? So they start their terror. They find these local victims, they pour brake fluid into their cars, you know?

They start painting homophobic slurs on their houses, breaking into their house, smashing their windows, killing their pets, hanging them on the porch as doing the whole nine yards. And Jamie had to be prepped with animals. So John made Jamie watch as he ran over a dog. And Jamie said that John would just be laughing as he did it. And he'd be like, look in the rear of the mirror.

Look, look, look, the dog is dying. So then they get a dog and John forces it into a room and gives Jamie a gun. Have you ever shot someone before? No, we'll go on, shoot it. And Jamie can't shoot the dog, so John takes the gun, shoots the dog blood, just splatters everywhere. And Jamie wants to throw up so badly, but he can't, because he needs to impress John. So then at 16 years old, it happens again.

Jamie is sodomized by another man, and he starts resorting to just tougher drugs to forget the pain. He starts, you know, doing heroin and he doesn't tell anyone, he doesn't tell the police. And now that Jamie's 16, he feels a lot more ashamed. He says, well, I'm bigger now. I'm almost six feet tall now. How could I let this happen to me? So he is really blaming himself for the assault even though, you know, you know, and I know that he shouldn't. So he is really blaming himself for the assault even though you know and I know that he shouldn't. But he does because brains are just funny like that. And it was around this time that John Bunting, whether true or not, tells Elizabeth and everybody else that Vanessa, Robert's girlfriend, had molested one of Elizabeth's kids. So she freaks

out, Robert freaks out, and he realizes, oh, wait, this is a pattern. So Robert's like, I was not special to you. I thought that I was special because, you know, we started dating when I was what, 13 years old. But no, this is a pattern. You're just a pedophile. So he gets mad. They break up, and it's just like this huge thing.

Now, this is going to become important later. She's going to come back into the picture later, and they start planning their revenge against the world, Robert and John. This is like another tipping point. We've got to do something. It's been too long since Clinton. We need to kill again. So around that time there was a woman named Suzanne Allen who lived nearby and her life was rough. You know, she just wanted love her whole life. That's just what she wanted and she never got it. She would do anything for love really, but she always chose the wrong men to give it to her. She wanted love so bad that she reasons with herself when boyfriends abuse her.

And she would say things like, you know, it's hard to date someone because I have asthma, carpal tunnel, obesity, high blood pressure, bowel disease, you know, these guys are just trying their best. Like she would just kind of reason with herself. So according to killing for pleasure, that's when Ray Davies comes into the picture. Now he also had a very rough life. He was born intellectually disabled. His parents, they just never really could take care of him, so his aunt was watching him. And so according to the book book he had some very alarming behavior

early on so it's alleged that at 13 years old his aunt found him having sex with a dog and that would just kind of continue for most of his life so then he starts living in this van um he needs to park it somewhere so he gets introduced to Susan Suzanne Allen so he's like well can I park it in your backyard she's like okay sounds good so he starts living in her backyard and out of So he's like, well, can I park it in your backyard? She's like, okay, sounds good. So he starts living in her backyard and out of nowhere, he just like proposes to her. So they get engaged, but I mean, it's strange. They never move in together. They don't seem to be in love. Ray kept having sex with dogs in the trailer and tried to get like little boys into the trailer. Sometimes you would just stand outside watching the neighbors

pass while masturbating. And the cops had to be called multiple times And if that wasn't horrendous enough for his fiance, he would just like non-stop beat her just all the time So finally she's fed up. She's like no. I'm getting a restraining order on you, Ray kicks him out But also she's in love with someone else John bunting And she's obsessed wants to be his girlfriend. Yes, yes, so he's like legally married to Veronica and like also dating Elizabeth,

but like what about me, you know? And she just, she just writes some letters every day, drives by his house every single day, buys him, you know, presents. But John's busy, because he wants to kill Ray Davies. So John and Robert, they get into the car and they convince Ray to get in with them. And they start driving while Robert starts aggressively punching Ray, and he's a big dude. He's like breaking his bones by punching him. It's really... there's a lot.

And they pick up lunch, they eat it in the car in front of Ray, who has no idea what's going on. I mean, if anything, he thought they were all friends. So, like, what's happening? Like, why are you guys doing this to me? They bring him to John's house, throw him into a bath tub, and force him to get naked. And they start stabbing at his testicles with a metal rod. And they just break out into laughter every time they hit him. And he's just like like in so much pain.

I mean, he's bleeding from all over his body. They're calling him slurs. They just, I mean, it's evil. They laugh at him because his balls are the size of golf balls now. They drag him from the bathroom into the bedroom and they force him to call them master. They force even Elizabeth into the room.

So at this point in Elizabeth's life, she was drugged out. Like she started seeing some doctors and really all these doctors did was just give her heavy dosages of valium. So she's pretty much tranquilized her up, if that makes sense. So she's like, what's going on here? And John says, well, we got to kill him because he's molesting our children. The children of the neighborhood, puts a knife in her hand and forces her to stab Ray's legs. And she does. Meanwhile, they strangle him to death. And afterwards, they throw him into the hole in the backyard,

and they would giggle for the next year because every time that John thought about this murder, he didn't feel guilt or shame or remorse He thought it was funny because Ray was holding his balls when he died and he was just so happy about that Now Elizabeth states that she had no idea what happened for at least six months and then finally I mean she realizes did I just help kill someone? So she doesn't say anything She doesn't tell the police she doesn't say anything. She doesn't tell the police, she doesn't do anything. She's so terrified of John for her kids that she doesn't do anything, especially because her

relationship with John was not going well. He started talking to another woman, Suzanne. So she's like, okay, well, I can't do anything because eventually something weird might happen to me or my kids. Now, Suzanne was not really the apple of John's eye. He eventually gets bored. She's too much, like too jealous. He would actually gather all of his friends into the living room to read the letter that she would send. And I would say,

mm-mm. Dear John, dear John Angel. But he would giggle because she spelt angel as angle. I'm finding it hard to be away from you all the time. I wish that you could stay with me for good because I love you so much. I hope you feel the same way about me. My darling John, please don't take too long to come back to me. I will always wait for you. All my love, Suzanne, and he would just laugh and laugh with his friends.

How a desperate is she? Then Suzanne's daughter gets pregnant. And the father of a child is one of Suzanne's ex-boyfriends. John believes Suzanne is not only a despicable person because she's clinging overweight. He hates that. He thinks that itself deserves death. He's disgusting. I don't know what else to say. But now, now she's a tooth fairy. She let her kid be assaulted. By one of her ex-boyfriends.

Now it's suspected that they killed Suzanne, but it's up in the air legally, because the jury would later not be able to decide if they did, right? But we can't say for sure. But Suzanne somehow ends up dead, okay? She's just like dead. She died. The men go into her house and they put her dead body in the tub. They move her dead body. So if it was like a natural cause, you would have called the cops or done something, right?

You would have called the ambulance. But instead, they drag her dead body into the tub and they mutilate her. They take off her arms, they deflash her. They take off her skin, muscles, tissue, all of that completely meticulous So they're saying they they're doing that because they found her dead body. Yeah, they were just like what else can we do They take out her heart her right lung. They cut off both of her breasts They slice up her private areas and they took her hair So killing for pleasure goes in depth about this, but I mean they don't know did they tear it out of the scalp Like the way that they took out Suzanne's hair is just bizarre

They yank out her teeth They even decapitate her and they start tossing her head around like it's a football and they would scream at each other Kiss the puppet kiss the puppet and they would be giggling like no you do it, kiss the puppet, kiss the puppet, and they would be giggling like no you do it, you kiss the puppet. So afterwards, they put her dismembered body into garbage bags and they place her with Ray and the hole in the backyard. Now, her daughter is confused, you know, Suzanne's daughter is like, where's my mom? Like she didn't leave a note, where did she go? I don't understand. The neighbors start noticing that there's just men coming in at like three in the morning

taking all the furniture out of Suzanne's place that's bizarre Suzanne moving but she's missing what's happening so Suzanne's daughter and brother they follow missing persons report but the police tell the family which is we checked she's taking out her pensions her disability she's taking it out oh but I mean she did change the address. This house belongs to a John Bunting. So they call him up. The police call up John and John says,

oh yeah, she is still in here, but she left. I don't know where she went. She's long gone now. And they say, okay, well thank you for your time. So they call the family back. And they say, well good news. Suzanne's not missing. So we're not gonna help you look.

The family's like, well, if she's not missing, where is she? No, well, we don't know. Okay, well, that's like kind of the definition of missing, right? But they're like, well, she's an adult, so we can't do anything about it. Now, who's getting her pension, right? John had given Elizabeth Susanne's ID as a present, almost like a gift, and said,

oh, well, I found her dead of a heart attack, but at least we can take her social security. But we don't have the pin for her bank. So you got to pretend to be Suzanne. Go to the bank and open up a new account. So she does dress that. And then afterwards Elizabeth starts feeling guilty. Like, oh no, we're going to get arrested. She had no idea of anything else. She just said, I think we're going to get arrested. So he takes the car to away and gives it to Mark Hayden's sister-in-law. Gail Sinclair. Now Gail is going to become important later. Just keep it in mind. Just gives it to another woman. Then incomes Michelle Gardner into the neighborhood. Now Michelle Gardner's birth name was Michael

Gardner and she had a really tough life as well. So her dad died early on in her life. Just had this awful stepdad was sexually abused by a family friend when she was 14 years old and at this point she's now 19 living her life. Get's a roommate trying to get her life together like what am I going to do with the rest of my life? I'm only 19 and through her roommate she is introduced to John Bunting. Now, her roommate had no idea what kind of person John was, nor that he hated anyone that's transgender or gay, like, she had no idea.

So they all just meet and at first John is just teasing Michelle, like, oh my God, you danced to Madonna. Let's bizarre. And he would also never acknowledge Michelle as Michelle would continue to call her Michael, you know And so there was just a lot of rudeness there. So one day Nicole the roommate goes out of town and she gets a phone call From a friend who says, hey, I just passed by your house and guess what? Your roommate Michelle that you really really likes? Well, she just stole everything and left! What? There's no way! Michelle would never do that.

She's not the type. Sure enough, you know, Nicole, the roommate comes home and everything's gone. Michelle is gone too. So she starts asking around like, have you seen this bits? Where's my stuff? And John says, oh yeah, I saw her at a gas station. She was selling your stuff to buy drugs. And Nicole doesn't believe it.

She's like, that's insane. But she just kind of lets it go. Now, what had really happened was the group of men, they lure Michelle into the car and they start driving to the shed that was like in the back of one of their houses. And they're laughing at her the whole time just calling her all these homophobic slurs

and she's begging to be let go. They don't care. So once in the shed, they strip her down and they start burning cigarettes on her private areas and she's crying and they're laughing. And when they're done torturing her, John gets up and places a noose around her neck, forces her to stand up, but at this point she has been tortured for so long she doesn't even have the strength to stand. So she keeps slipping, but if she slips, she will die. This noose will hang her. And in her last moments, they keep calling her, oh you naughty boy. And Michelle dies.

And John can't stop laughing. Even later, he will tell Jamie the whole story and he can't stop laughing. Even later he will tell Jamie the whole story and he can't stop laughing. It wasn't even murder, technically, because she fell down and died. Ha ha ha. They were laughing at the fact that she couldn't even stand after they could. Who is there? Just John and Robert? Yeah. And how does Jamie feel about it? When... Jamie feels like scared, but not enough to go to the police, I guess. Jamie feels like scared, but not enough to go to the police, I guess.

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So Vanessa had broken up with Robert. Well I guess Robert had broken up with her. And she'd moved on with a new man named Thomas Turvilan. I think I'm saying that right. And she was just distraught still. Like Vanessa was holding on to this a lot. Vanessa kept telling her mom and anyone who would listen, I helped murder someone named Clinton. Like she couldn't get that first murder out.

Like she just, she was freaking out. I mean she was the one that told Veronica like she, she's trying to like get help. And her mom doesn't believe her because everyone just believes that's just another one of Vanessa's stories. It's not true. If it was true, she would have gone to the police. So she tries to forget the whole ordeal by dating 18-year-old Thomas.

Now Vanessa is in her 40s at this point so that's a huge age gap. Now Thomas, he was also born in a troubled household. Diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, had severe hallucinations, heard voices, and he wasn't good about taking his medications. He believed that satellites were following him, he put tin foil in his hat to make sure that they couldn't track him, which I didn't know that that was where the whole tin foil conspiracy hat thing came from. Yet they're like, put on your tin foil hats.

I thought that it was just because it looks stupid, but apparently not. He had his first suicide attempt at 11 years old. He went to a scout meeting, according to Killing for Pleasure, and he tried to hang himself. So the group, they need their next fix, their next mission. And they decide, well, let's hit a couple birds with one stone.

We were worried that Vanessa would probably tell someone about Clinton's murder. She was a witness, she was there, she helped. And Robert is upset because Vanessa groomed him when he was young. So let's, let's kidnap Vanessa. And that's exactly what they do. And they have big plans for her. They want to torture her.

So they force her to strip naked and they start crushing her toes with pliers. One by one by one. And they do this for hours while they get up in her face and call her the worst slurs that you could ever think of. And she starts fainting and John gets pissed and would shake her awake, force her awake, force Vanessa to call her own mom, and force her to call her own mom like these terrible disgusting things. They even forced her new boyfriend Thomas to help torture her. What?

This 18 year old. So finally, they put her out of her misery and Robert strangles her to death. And they put her in a garbage bag and eventually they'll put her in a barrel. Now Robert and John Glovery living this murder. They're constantly talking about it with anyone in their circle that'll listen. Even nicknamed Robert Papa Smurf. You know Smurf's the little blue cartoons? Because Robert likes to turn people blue when he kills them.

And he comes up with a catchphrase. First they go blue, then they go poo. Because after you die, you poo. But then they realize that they've lost someone that they don't trust, which is Thomas! So then they decide, well, we gotta kidnap him too! They kidnap Vanessa's young boyfriend, Thomas, drive him to a quiet road, and they hang him. Off a tree. So he is found by a truck driver who sees his corpse just like swaying in the wind and he is immediately

I did by his grandpa. Now the police believe well Thomas has committed suicide. He's tried before. He's got you know He's mentally unstable. Let's move on. The family doesn't believe it, but the police don't care. They said it's suicide and that's that. Now the group is pissed off about this. They're pissed because they messed up. If they don't make it look like a suicide, then they could be taken as benefits right now. But you can't take a suicide, you know,

like you can't take as benefits now if it looked like he disappeared or ran away, yeah. So they're mad. They're like, okay, well next time now we learned and John keeps telling Jamie they are the disease and we are the cure Now Jamie starts trying to kind of get away from John He starts making new friends and one of them happened to be Gavin Porter now Gavin Porter He too was born in a broken home, okay?

Not unlike a lot of the others by the time that he's 23 He's addicted to heroin and that he's 23, he's addicted to heroin, and when he's 24, his mom dies, I mean, he's just lost. Like, he doesn't know how to even live. He tries to go to rehab, and that's where he meets Jamie. And they hit it off, right? But once they get out, they get a place together, and they start just enabling each other to do drugs. They were just not a good friendship, right? And Jamie really likes him, but John doesn't approve. It seems like John doesn't approve

because he doesn't like someone that has influence over Jamie, just like wants all that power to himself, and doesn't like Gavin because he does drugs. And anyone who does drugs are just as bad as pedophiles. And the hatred, it just only gets worse. On two occasions, John stepped on a used needle that Gavin had left behind. And at one point John sits on his couch and a needle pokes his arm.

So he's pissed. It was two days after the needle in the couch incident that Gavin mysteriously disappears. So John and Robert creeped up on Gavin while he was in the car and they put a rope around his neck and they strangled him to death, threw him into the shed and they called Jamie over. And Jamie sees his dead friend's body in the shed. And he starts freaking out, but John says, listen, it's time to man up. You need to be in charge of him. Get a barrel and put your best friend in the barrel.

So he feels sick. I mean, Jamie was like throwing up, but he has to listen. Gavin, like, I mean, I just... Damn, Jamie was confused because Gavin wasn't gay. Gavin was in a pedophile. Yeah. All he was was a drug user. And Jamie, all he is is a drug user.

So he feels like he could be next. That's what he claims So he gets a barrel he puts Gavin in and John opens the lid to Vanessa's barrel and starts laughing and says look she's decomposing And as a wonderful present John gives Jamie Gavin's social security card like like little, you know, benefits card for social security payments Meanwhile John's relationship with Jamie's mom Elizabeth is getting stranger. He stops having sex with her He really only has sex with a blow-up doll He thinks it's easier. No connection. No demands. Just easy sex and John starts getting angry over tiny things like He'll be making breakfast if the eggs break He's gonna throw the whole pan against the wall.

Like that's it. Elizabeth's gotta clean it up, she gets diagnosed with cancer. Yeah, so like the last thing she needs is that mess, and she later realizes that he tried to kill her. So she goes for her drive one day, and that's what she does when she's stressed, and so she's hitting like 80 miles an hour, and her car flips over. She's confused. She gets out, like 80 miles an hour and her car flips over. She's confused. She gets out like these people have stopped on the side of the road to help her out and realizes that someone had undone all of the wheel like the wheel nuts on the car.

And John claims, well that's crazy. It must have been Jamie's friends. It's like a practical joke. Ha ha. So one day Elizabeth is out of town with her youngest kids. That's when John, Robert and Mark decided it's time. They've been waiting for this moment. They go into the house, they wake up Jamie.

Hey, come on, it's time. Let's go into Troy's room. This is the half-brother that had assaulted Jamie. Are you going to kill him? The son of Elizabeth, which is John's like wife, and he's sleeping in his room and they immediately jump on top of him and hit Troy on the head with a metal rod. And he's like, what are you guys doing? Jamie had no idea that this was planned.

He was just brought in with them, but didn't know what was going to happen. They handcuffed Troy and they throw him into the bathtub. They cut the clothes off of him. And Jamie said it was confusing because he wanted to see Troy gone, but he didn't want to see him dead. Just like leave this place, right? But not die. And so these men, they start crushing his toes

with pliers, laughing in his face, forced him to talk into a tape recorder. So at this point, they start recording all of their murders, because John likes to listen to the screens later. And he also uses the recordings like he has lines for the victims and he'll send these as like voicemails to convince their family members that they're still alive. So it's like if your family member goes missing and then suddenly you get a voicemail that's like fork you, leave me alone, you're an ass, I never like to. Like that's the type of

voicemails he would make them leave. So he would say things like, Mom you, leave me alone, you're an ass, I never like to. Like that's the type of voicemails he would make them leave. So he would say things like, mom, I can't handle this anymore. It's all around me. I'm gonna see the earth before there's none left. Wish me luck. And then he would force him to say things like, you're gonna stay the fork out of my life.

Do you hear me? Leave me alone. They forced him to give up his ATM pen. And Jamie starts wanting to throw up But John forces Jamie to get up close and personal and forces Troy to apologize for assaulting him and he does and that is when Robert starts strangling Troy But every time that he's about to die John says no no no let it go because he wants to prolong the torture And at this point Jamie can't do it about to die, John says, no, no, no, let it go. Because he wants to prolong the torture.

And at this point, Jamie can't do it. So he grabs the rope and just tries to like, let Troy die. Well, I guess murder him. But the rope snaps. So it just causes like this extra thing. Before they find a barrel for Troy, they actually dismember him. They chop off his legs, his feet, cut off all of his muscles.

They cut off his genitals, and John keeps asking Jamie, now what do you think? That was your first murder, how do you feel? And he just was forced to say, yeah, that's just so fun. But he was terrified. He kept forcing him to look into Gavin, his best friend's barrel, and tell me what you think. You don't think he's rotting so nicely?

He's rotting nicely, huh? Either way, you know, Jamie uses Troy's social security benefits to get money on drugs so he can forget it. Now, Elizabeth comes home from her trip, and she does what she always does after a long trip. She takes a bath. Oh my god. The same one that Troy, her son, was murdered by her husband the night before.

And she said, have you guys seen Troy? Oh yeah, he left with some friends. He said he's sick of us now. Apparently he's got a girlfriend and he's getting a job. That's weird. Really? She keeps calling, but nobody picks up. At this point, they decide to move all of the barrels

into Hades' Marquadens place. So we've got the bodies of Vanessa, Michelle, Gavin, and Troy in the barrels in Marquadens Garage, which seems dangerous, especially because Marquadens just got newcomers into his house. So remember how he's married to his wife Liz? But his wife's sister, Gail Sinclair just moved in with her son Fred Brooks. Now Fred is 18 years old and he's had a rough life too, okay?

His whole life he had been taking care of Gail. He's almost like Gail's mom or dad. He has never been allowed to be a kid. She just wasn't maybe the best mom during his upbringing because she was also dealt some pretty cards Now John Bunting hates Fred this 18 year old hate him Mainly because he just hates them all. He just doesn't like Liz. Liz is fat. He says and this is Liz's nephew So he just has to hate him

Looking for some reason to hate him, right and it came So Fred was tripping on something, like falling mid-air. And he grabs onto something nearby. It happened to be Jamie's leg. And everyone looked and said, Oh, well, he must be gay. What? So we gotta kill him.

They learned him into the car. They got these big plans, okay, for Fred Brooks. He had to be tortured. Wanted to last as long as possible. So they do the big plans for Fred Brooks. He had to be tortured. Wanted to last as long as possible. So they do the handcuffed trick on him. Like the John Wayne Gacy handcuffed trick. Okay. Now Fred's just excited because he's making friends. By the time that he realizes that he's handcuffed and they're not joking, John and Robert drag him into the bathroom. And they beat him, they record him, and force him to say things so that they can send it to Gail, to convince her that her son is alive and not murdered.

They light cigarettes on him, they attach an electric shock machine to his testicles, and force him to admit to touching young girls, which he didn't do. So finally, he lies and he admits it. He's like, yeah, I did it. And they administer shock after shock. And at one point, you know those like sparklers that you see at those

weddings or those parties that you like hold on to like a skewer and it starts sparkling at the end. Seems dangerous. They stick that into his penis hole. And when that's done, they push in another one. They start burning out their cigarettes on him, on his face, on his forehead. They do a smiley face on his forehead. They put lit cigarettes into his nose and ears with the lit sides in. They burn his nipples with a lighter, and they crush his toes with pliers. They even, according to a killing for pleasure, they inject water into his legs and his groin. And they start forcing him to admit to other things that he didn't

do. And finally, they strangle him. Now, it's that in the book that John's face was straight up in front of Fred's, like, right in front of him, because he wanted to see his last breath. And after all these murders, what they would do, like this, they did this for most of them, they would lay the body down and one of the people would jump on the chest to let all the air out. In this last sick act, John leaves to go sleep with Gail, Fred's mom. Right after murdering Fred, John has sex with Fred's mom. You think that's another psychological?

Yeah. Just disgusting. This guy is freaking out of this world. So they put him in a barrel as well in Mark's garage. Now, Gail lives in Mark's house. And she had no idea where her son is. Fred just didn't come home. She reports him missing, but nobody seems to care.

And then she gets a voicemail. Fred is yelling at her. Yoling want my money, like fork off like I hate you, mom. So she's really depressed and she calls the police, like thanks for looking for him, but he's alive. Maybe he'll come home soon. like thanks for looking for him, but he's alive. Maybe he'll come home soon. Meanwhile, Jamie pretends to be Fred to get more government assistance, okay?

So he's like applying for all these like social security benefits. At one point, Jamie applies in person at like a CPS office, let's say. And he signs it Jamie instead of Fred. Okay, like what? What is happening? John plays the murder tapes whenever he has the chance.

He wants to hear people scream and cry because he wants the power to choose if people live or die. So then guess who else moves into the neighborhood? A man by the name of Gario Dwyer. Now he had a better life, okay okay slightly better. So when he was 19 months old, he was adopted by Maureen and her husband and they showed him just pure love from the get-go, okay? But when he grew up, he was hit by a car on Christmas day. It was a hit and run, he suffered extreme brain damage, which caused him to really become erratic,

like he started drinking heavily, isolated himself, would have these crazy violent mood swings almost started committing petty theft, but he got paid out of it, you know, he got paid well from insurance. And so because of that, he moved out to his own place, not a great place, but freedom, and started, you know, he still talked to his mom, good relationship, just a rough life, and he happened to live near John's house. John, of course, immediately saw him as a target. Loner, lonely, wants, friends, has money, has benefits. Let's kill him.

So, I mean, at this point, you guys are noticing, they're not trying to save the world from pedophiles, okay? They're killing whoever they want to kill. They are just doing it, literally killing for pleasure, the title of the book, and just killing gay people because John is a homophob, a raging evil homophob. So they invite themselves over to Gary's house and he's just so excited. He's like, oh my god, I haven't had friends my whole life.

And they attack him. He's like, what are you doing? What did I do? So they electrocute his genitals, they beat them to a pulp, and they force him to say things into a recorder like, I'm Gary, I'm a pedophile, which is not true. And they say, we'll tell them that you're happy with the treatment for being a pedophile. So they're like acting like they're doing some sort of therapy. And he says, I'm happy now that I've had treatment into the recorder, and they kill kill him and they put his body in a

barrel and they start taking his disability and they also steal all of his furniture. So finally the police get involved because they get a missing person's report for Vanessa Lane. Now, Vanessa Lane, they had another one. They're like, wait, a guy named Clinton, there was a missing report for him. Didn't they use to live together? Clinton, you used to live with Vanessa? And a guy named Robert Wagner? Okay, that's weird. Well, it shows that Vanessa is still caching

in her social security. At the same bank every single week, well, let's just check the CCTV. She's took them long enough to figure out, wow, yeah, something's going on. So when they go and they check the CCTV, it's not Vanessa. It's Robert taking out the money. They're like, OK, this is weird now. Do you think something shady is going on? But they're like, we don't really have resources. So they just ignore it.

They ignore it. They said that no crime has been committed big enough for us to care. Like, it's just social security theft. It's not a thought, which is bizarre to me, because from what I can tell, if I'm murdered for whatever reason I want the IRS involved because they seem to solve crimes way more efficiently than anybody else They care. They're like where's this money going? We need to find out. Meanwhile, Mark Hayden

He's a big mouth. He's going around telling everybody about the murders and Most importantly he tells his wife Liz. Like, the full detail. Nobody else really believes Mark, but Liz kind of believes him. She knows the types of guys that he hangs around. He's like, oh, I probably shouldn't have told my wife Liz. So he rushes to John's place and says,

listen, best bud. I'm sorry, but I confess to my wife about killing people. And John's like, well, you know what, best bud? You know what we gotta do now? We gotta kill killer. So Mark takes Gail, Liz is a strong a ride, leaves the house, comes up with an excuse, and the men enter the Hayden house where Liz is alone and they attack her. And she's fighting for her life screaming. They get her into the tub, they keep beating her, calling her a dirty slut, they smash her teeth, break her bones, force her to recite lines into a recorder, and then they strangle her. So then Liz vanishes, her family and friends start worrying, but the recordings come

in handy, so Elizabeth's voice is leaving voicemails to the ones closest to her, like, leave me alone, you know. I hate you. Meanwhile, her checks are getting cached, but the police get a missing person's report from her brother, I believe, which is strange. They notice it's strange because she's a married woman. Why did her husband report her missing? Why does it her brother?

That's weird. So the police question the husband and the sister who lives with her. Why don't you guys report her missing? They said, well, she's not missing. The story is Liz was hitting on, you know, my, so this is Mark telling the story. He says, you know, my wife was hitting on my good friend, John.

My best friend, John. And my best friend, John was like, well, you're, this is bro code. You're, you're married to my best bud, Mark. So John rejected my wife. And my wife couldn't deal with that, so she stormed off never to be seen again. Well, is there anyone that can back up this story?

Cause John seems, that's a weird story. Yeah, my other friend, Robert Wagner was there. Now the police are like, wait a minute. Robert Wagner is now linked to three missing people, okay? This is too much to be a coincidence. So they say, let's talk to him. And this John bunting dude that is just so hot and sexy that all these women just like want to head on and then let's talk to him. Let's see what this guy's all about. So they

go and they talk to the two men and they repeat the same exact story. But at this point after the police leave, they can't arrest them, you know. They start freaking out about the barrels. Check, we got the barrels out. The police are on to us. So they put the barrels into a pickup truck and they drive it to a friend's farm and they're like, we gotta just leave it here. And the friends are like, what's in there? Just some kangaroos, I killed.

Yeah. And the friends are like, okay, sounds good. They keep the kangaroos in the bucket. Oh yeah, it is Australian, yeah. But like, it is Australia, but like, you don't see them killing kangaroos, you know So he's like yeah, it's just some dead kangaroos. I murdered. Please keep them here They're like yeah that that decomposition of kangaroos is so stinky like they were just constantly complaining about it

Now meanwhile the detectives keep digging and digging deeper. So they search John's old shit. They notice the smell They're like we know that smell we can know that smell but there's no bodies there where the bodies they do lumen all tests lights up they're like what's this why is there so much blood here John's like a a dog who gave birth got really bloody we don't really believe you they find maggots in the area maggots just don't exist, you know? Like most people you go to your backyard, you're not gonna find maggots. They're feeding off of something. What are they feeding off of? John's like, I don't know what you're talking about. We're

just nasty assholes, okay? So, John's pissed, okay? Not only because they're looking, but because now you can't get Liz's benefits. So he's really upset by this. So he decides to drive to a tiny, tiny, little town called Snow Town. This is what's crazy. This whole case is known as the Snow Town Murders. Most of it didn't even take place in Snow Town.

So he drives there. Not a lot of through traffic, not a destination place, either. Truly a small town, right? And he meets with the owners of a shut down vacant bank. And he says, I want to rent this place. I'm going to storage equipment for fixing up cars. I'm a car, dude.

So they're like, OK, yeah, sounds good. So they take the money, and now he's got this empty bank. OK, we've got to put the barrels there. So they move the barrels into the vaults of this bank, but the police are on to them, okay? They call them the three amigos, John Robert and Mark. That's what they call them. The police call them, that okay? Start tapping their calls.

They can't listen in real time for whatever reason. There's a huge delay that will later prove to be deadly, and the police find out that they talk in code. Any time they say that they're gonna fix a new car, that means they're trying to murder someone new. And they find out that they're using Jamie to lure out his step brother. Remember Marcus's son from a previous marriage, David?

They wanna lure him out to Snowtown. And the police hear this, but you know, because the back and forth, it's very unclear. Are they gonna do it? What are they gonna do? We don't know! So they don't act on this information. You would think that they would try to prevent another innocent life,

but they don't. So Jamie tells a stepbrother, Hey, haven't you been looking for a computer? Yeah. Well, my friends have one. And, and a snow town. It's super cheap. It's like out of bank. We just need to go pick it up. Wow, really? Like, Oh oh my god, like you're

Thank you and he's so thankful and Jamie's like I'll even go with you. You don't have to it's okay Now go with you so they drive out there and David the whole time is like thanking him Like you're so sweet. Thank you so much like I know that like we didn't get along some of the times But like you really are you're like a real brother to me like just He was only 24 years old David Have you guys ever heard this flex before because I'm about to lay it down for you Have you ever had Martha Stewart one of America's favorite chefs make dinner for you because I have well not really Kind of kind of not okay.

So my mom has been staying with us helping us with this move. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it. We're moving Stephanie. Okay, we get it. Which she kind of wanted to try out these different foods. What's an easy way for us to eat delicious meals that are prepped at home, but that we're going to enjoy, that my mom's going to enjoy. And so we have tried out Marley Spoon.

And we've been enjoying it, especially my mom. Like my Korean mom that doesn't really enjoy we've been enjoying it, especially my mom, like my Korean mom that doesn't really enjoy much, has been loving it. So if you guys don't know, Marley Spoon and Marley Spoon make great tasting meals possible every day of the week by delivering a variety of recipe options ranging from breakfast, dinner, dessert, and you can get like classic flavors, classic recipes that you know that you're gonna love a thousand percent or you can get new and Exciting flavors that you just want to try. They've got a new menu of 30 plus deliciously different recipes every single week because we like change

Okay, we like variety and it's so simple. Every single recipe is like six steps It's got like 10 ingredients and you can prep it in like 30 minutes I recently had one that I didn't even have to prep it took me like two to five minutes It was there ready to eat Thai coconut chicken curry and when I tell you every bite I was like what is happening to my taste buds right now. It was delicious. I like that I don't have to go grocery shopping or meal planning during this really hectic time and you can actually customize your orders every single week so that if you have special diets or maybe you've got a different taste this week, you can even skip or pause deliveries anytime. And honestly I kind of like that I was, uh, wow is this getting so pop-up, but I kind of liked that I was bonding with my mom while I was making these recipes. It was like a cute little moment and my mom is not the strongest English speaker,

but she found these recipes so easy to follow. And so if you guys are tired of the same old, same old, go to marleyspoon.com for a variety of chef design dinners from Martha Stewart. And you guys, Rotten Mangle listeners, save $100 over your first four orders if you guys use Code Rotten. So, imagine eating deliciously different chef quality meals every day of the week.

And you can kind of tell people that Martha Stewart made you dinner, no? Go to MarleySpoon.com and use code, Rotten. So they walk into the bank together into the manager's office to look at the computer and he meets John and Robert who are there. And he's like, thanks guys, seriously, you guys are saving my life and they handcuff him and he's like, what the hell? So they give us your pen and we can send you back home.

So he gives them all the bank pens, they strip him naked, put his dirty socks into his mouth, duct tape him, forces legs apart and start kicking him in the balls. And Jamie is standing there watching and David is pleading for him to help, but he doesn't. And eventually they strangle him with his own belt and they start dismembering him in the bank vault. They throw him into separate barrels, but when they get back home, Robert has a surprise.

He pulls out a piece of flesh, and starts frying it up. Oh my god. And Robert and John eat it, and he convinces he tries to tell Jamie to try it, but he can't. He just wants to throw up. And Jamie tells his mom and his stepdad that David ran off to marry someone. And they start taking David's social security benefits. They also sell his car to Gale.

Now, nobody knows why the police didn't respond before David's murder. They hint that it's a lack of resources, not enough manpower, but it's just something that's going to weigh heavy on a lot of resources, not enough manpower, but it's just something that's gonna weigh heavy on a lot of Australians, I believe. So they search, but the police do know that there's a truck filled with barrels.

Okay, witness is stated that they saw, you know, these guys living, leaving Marquayton's place with a truck full of barrels. What's in the barrels? So they're looking for this truck all over the place, and they find it, but they don't find the barrels. So they're like, why the fork are the the barrels and why are we in Snowtown? And someone's like, oh, I'm a Snowtown resident, I saw a bunch of dudes load a bunch of barrels into the bank. The bank over there.

So they're like, okay, well let's look at the bank over there. So they immediately go in and they knew. I mean that smell. But also, you know, just all of it. The look in the vault, there's just six barrels lined up against the wall. So the police, they sued up, they call and back up. It's a full-fledged search. They know something big is happening. They can literally smell it. It's not the smell of one body.

There's too many barrels, too much scent. So they pop one open, and they see limbs, arms, legs, skulls. They also find like a bunch of weird evidence in the bank like just acid, like they were trying to um soak these bodies in acid to disintegrate them but in reality it just preserved the bodies. Just like weird. And they immediately arrest John Robert and Mark and when John is arrested he tells Jamie get ready to stuff in the cars. Now Jamie goes full on freak out mode. Instead of getting ready to stuff in the cars, he calls his best friend Wally, his other friend,

and he just tells him everything. Like, oh my god, we just murdered people, and they're arrested. So what does Wally do? He calls the police. Thank God someone's clicking straight, okay? So Wally calls the police. Now Jamie lawyers up at this point, and they tell the police, hey, I have information on this case, but we want full immunity.

And the police say, yeah, no, we found the bodies. Like, we don't need you, right? Now, the three men, they are not talking. So they bring in the list of us. She's in shock, doesn't believe the truth. Later, they confront her. They're like, we found Suzanne's ID in your purse, like, you're a freaking liar. And then word gets out.

Snowtown made international headlines. Very interesting because the name itself, it's actually named after a person, it's never snowed there in like a hundred fifty years. So they don't really see snow. There's no banks there. Just really nothing happens there. You can't even get phone signal in most parts of the town. Literally Debbie Marshall was talking about it in the book because she's like, anytime

you visit these places you're like, what? What's happening? Like you can almost you it's kind of creepy so people are freaking out Please tell them not to worry. Don't worry. It's not like a they weren't just going around the street like any Miningmo, you know picking random victims. They were all interconnected. What was it about money? I mean I would say in the past year they made about a hundred thousand dollars So about twenty five thousand000 each, but probably not money. People start getting cheeky.

The headlines say, why is service so slow at the Snowtown Bank? Because they only have skeleton staff. It's really bad. Not the joke. I mean the joke is bad, but like, come on. Why is it difficult to get a loan at the Snowtown Bank? Because it costs an arm in a leg. Oh my god.

An old woman named Shirley, she buys the bank, and she starts auction off pieces of it, like the vault doors. She like auctioned it off. This man starts selling souvenirs. He can only buy in Snowtown, pictures of skeletons and barrels that says, Bint is Snowtown and survived. And a sign that says, snow town, you'll have a barrel of fun.

Snow globes instead of snow, it's like body parts moving around. Holy God, these people has. Yeah. No problem doing this. Snow town. And the town was in such distress that they considered changing their name to rose town,

but they didn't. At this point, Jamie mom everything you know that he's like freaking out The bodies haven't been formally IDed by the forensics teams, but Marcus starts freaking out and those little bit Elizabeth tells her Tells him Marcus ex-husband your son was murdered by your stepson And he's just like how could you and then Jamie also had to tell his mom that he helped murder his half-brother Troy as well. So Elizabeth, I mean, I can't even imagine what she was going through. She has the guilt of helping murder Ray Davies. She is dating a serial killer. Her son was his killing assistant. Together they killed her other son and her stepson. So the police come to arrest Jamie and he decides that he wants to protect his mom and says, listen, I can lead you to two more bodies but please don't use this evidence against my

mom. So they sign that deal and they go digging in that hole and they find Ray Davies and Suzanne's bodies. Now, side note, Marcus never blamed Elizabeth, but he believes that she really didn't know. She never received a penny from John. She wasn't like trying to make, you know, benefit's money. She just wasn't a rough space. She couldn't even take care of her kids.

There's no way that she had the attention to even realize what was truly going on. So the police find the other two bodies. Forensic aspect was a sh- show. I mean, the FBI, Scotland, Yard, aspect was a show. I mean the FBI Scotland yard They all get involved. It was wild at one point people were freaking out because inside the barrels They had eight bodies, but they only had 15 feet. Where is the where's the last foot? Where's the foot? They find out that Elizabeth Hayden Mark's wife was pregnant at the time of her murder

They also link finally Clinton and Thomas to the trio. So now we've got 12 bodies. And Jamie decides to just give it all to the police. He gives like an 800-page statement. And in between the interrogations, because 800 pages, I mean, you're talking, this is days of interrogation. I don't know how he had access But he overdoses on heroin nearly dies and at that point it was like strict protocol only because they care about his life

Not really, but they care that he's the star witness because that's just how it works He's only 19 years old at this point and they're terrified that he's even gonna get killed in prison Because you know these guys they're powerful. They're strong killed in prison. Because you know, these guys, they're powerful, they're strong. Jamie tries to take his own life at least two more times in prison. That's just before the trial. And the way that everything starts unfolding, it just gets worse. So we, Elizabeth, I mean, I can't even imagine the trauma of that.

But when Gail finds out that she was having sex with John, if not even felt someone in love with John, murdered her son and her sister She's like what Like we all with the help of her brother-in-law. Do you know what I mean? Like this isn't just one trauma. It's like I can't even imagine wrapping your head around something like this And Gail's family they accused her of knowing it that like you had something to do with this There's no way that you lived there and didn't know accuser of knowing it. They're like, you had something to do with this.

There's no way that you lived there and didn't know. So at first Jamie was really ballsy during his court appearances in front of Caramaz, he would dance, stick out his tongues, like people off, like all of that. Jamie? Yeah, the young kid. And eventually, jail kills all sense of cockiness. So he pleads guilty to the murders of his half-brother Troy, Fred Brooks, Gario Dwyer, and David Johnson his stepbrother. He gets convicted of four murders, 22 years old, and he gets life in prison with a minimum of 26 years.

Now David's parents tell Jamie, so this is his stepdad. Now I think that this kind of speaks to the whole case. They tell him, I don't condone your actions. I feel sorry for you because you have robbed and defiled yourself, but what has been done has been done and it can't be changed. Not in heaven or earth. You gave up my son for his possessions and money. David was no angel, but his life was not yours to take. I think that it's very strong for all the victims.

Like, none of these victims the victims. Like, none of these victims are angels. Well, most of them aren't. But it's not, it's not up to you. So then the trial, John and Robert, they get tried together. Markets tried separately. John pleads not guilty to all 12 counts. Robert pleads guilty to three counts of murder and not guilty to the rest of them. And the trial was awful. John did not care the whole time. Even during impact statements by victims family members, he was reading a book. And this whole trial was ignoring them. Just ignoring them. Not a care in the world.

And this whole trial would cost Australians $32 million in taxpayer money. And a lot of that was spent on the council for the defenses and Veronica she had to testify and she is a victim in all of this too. This is John's first wife She was holding a teddy bear during her testimony like she just I think that she was Intellectually not at a point where she could have consented to all of this even the marriage I think. So I don't really know what happened there. Now, so many witnesses come forward. Apparently, Mark Hayden was on their next hit list.

So they were going to kill one of the three. Just bizarre. But before Elizabeth Harvey, this is Jamie's mom and John's girlfriend. Can testify she dies of cancer. And prosecutors were really upset by this, not because the woman died, but because we're like, damn my star witness. And she just never really understood the whole thing. In interviews, she said that John killed because he could.

She can't think of a reason why, just that he could. So the jury find both men not guilty on the murder of Suzanne. They believe that they just dismembered her after her death. They were just hungry. But they find John bunting guilty on 11 counts of murder. They find Robert guilty of seven, but he had already confessed to three. So they are both, you know, 11 counts of murder. Now the judge wanted John to stand up. Because that's what you do. He's like, all stand and John said, no. So the judge ignored him and sentenced them to 11 and 10 life sentences.

They both try to appeal their convictions and they both fail, okay? They're not going to have parole. Now Robert, he wants to make a statement. So he stands up and he says, pedophiles were doing terrible things to children and innocent children were being damaged. The authorities did nothing about it and I was really angry.

Someone had to do something about it. I decided to take action and I took that action. Now, most people were not moved by this because most of the victims were not sex offenders. Yeah. So like, even if they were, it's kind of like still murder, dude. But especially because they're not. Like literally all the evidence points to you guys

just being horrible people that kill for pleasure. You're not trying to save the world. Get out of here. Psychiatrist would say that John Bunting is like textbook psychopathic killer. Say note later, Robert would cause a stir in the press because he posted on a prison pen pals site looking for women who are up for exchanging interesting material with each other.

That's what he posted. He wants pen pals. He wants women pen pals. So then in 2004, we had Mark Hayden's trial for the murder of his wife Antroy and assisting in six murders, but the jury can't decide so they take off his murder charges and replace it with assisting in a fender instead. And he pleads guilty and he gets 25 years in prison. The public reaction, I mean most of the reaction caused people to realize, okay, we've got

problems. Because most of the middle class, I mean definitely the upper class, but most of the reaction caused people to realize, okay, we've got problems. Because most of the middle class, I mean definitely the upper class, but most of the middle class, you know, you try not to think about these types of people living on welfare, just living in poverty and these settings where it's just generations of rape and assaults and physical violence. You just kind of, because it's not, it's so hard to think about these things. It's so unpleasant, it makes you sad, it makes you feel these sad feelings, right?

So you try not to. You're in the comfort of your house. You don't think about it. But now you have to look. And not only do you have to look, but you have to realize that nobody's helping them. Like you kind of think in your head, well the government's helping, they're on welfare.

Well, we're paying taxes, maybe welfare helps them. But then you realize that where was the government in all of this? They weren't being helped by anybody. None of these kids were being helped. Because even John, before he was a killer, he was an abused kid. There could have been something done.

You don't think that one thing could have happened to change the trajectory of this story, maybe, or at least the effort could have been there. There were a small group of people that said, good riddance. They thought, well, the killers are nasty people, the victims are nasty people, and just get rid of them all. What a hot take, I don't believe in that one. So in prison, John Bragg's about his crimes all the time, scares his other inmates, just

sounds like he runs a place. Jamie, on the other hand, his picture is suppressed from being released from the media and he's getting his diploma in prison. They say that he's a pretty good roommate. Roommate, inmate. What? Three Australian publishers were actually fined for posting Jamie's pictures. And it's said that the family of the victims, neighbors, police officers, friends, teens, jury, journalists, a ton of people, because of this case, they require ongoing counseling.

There is a movie that they made called Snowtown. I know that there's a fictional movie or... Yeah, it's based off the crime. It's not like a documentary. It's like a movie. But I think it just like I watched the trailer and I was, I really wanted to watch it before I told you guys about the crime. It's not like a documentary. It's like a movie. But I think it just like I watched the trailer and I was I really wanted to watch it before I told you guys about the story. But it's just something about seeing these people and like really visually seeing it. I mean this I mean already all day today and all like the past I want to say four days

now. They were just like I I just, you saw me. I mean, I was just, I don't even know what was happening to me. But this is this no town murders. Before we go, I do have an announcement for the one or two people that made it this far. I will not be posting a mini-sode this weekend because we are prepping up for a cross-country move, so I need to be packing because I am really, really behind. So there will be no mini-sode, but I hope that this long-main-up episode kind of makes up for it.

And I hope you guys enjoyed this week's podcast, even though it was dark, go watch something happy, and I'll see you guys on Wednesday. Bye. Bye. and I'll see you guys on Wednesday. Bye. Bye.