Saturn Returns with Caggie - 2.6 The Origins of Queerdom: Harriet Rose on bisexuality

Episode Date: November 9, 2020

In this Episode of Saturn Returns with Caggie, Caggie is joined by her friend and presenter, Harriet Rose. In a very personal and honest episode they discuss and explore the spectrum of sexuality; what bisexuality means to them individually, and how it is viewed in society. Harriet discusses her journey coming out as a queer woman. Sexuality is a huge theme in your Saturn Returns, as it plays so heavily into identity, and discovering who you are and being truthful with that part of yourself.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Retirements with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. When I was about 21 I was like, you know, as you do snogging your mates on nights out. And then I would snog someone that wasn't my mate and then then I'd be like, oh, actually, I think I fancy you. And then... And were you okay with that? Not at all. I was so terrified by it.

Because I'd had this completely straight life. I had been in love with a boy who was so wonderful to me. And we were together for like three or four years. And I just did not get it. In this very exciting episode of Saturn Returns I am joined by a dear friend of mine Harriet Rose who is recently the new Kiss FM presenter and we discuss what it means to be bisexual, We discuss the realm of queerdom, the spectrum of sexuality. Now, Harriet and I met on her radio show a number of years ago when I was promoting my music at the time. And we hit it off right away.

But it wasn't really until more recently when I started doing this podcast that we really connected. And over dinner one evening, we started discussing sexuality and she had sort of made some conclusions, I guess, about me as we all do about one another. So she was kind of shocked with what I had to say. So it made sense that I brought her on this and we had a conversation about it because as you will hear, she speaks very openly and very vulnerably about her own experience coming out how that impacted her life what she thought that might mean and you know how that plays into one's identity because sexuality is such a key component to one's identity but I also feel that it doesn't mean you have to redefine yourself and as I talk in this about my own

opinion on it and what my experiences have been I think it just means it's another layer to who we are so it's quite a big reveal it's a bit of a coming out party sort of I'm being facetious, but I hope you enjoy this episode and I hope that it provides someone somewhere with some comfort if they are struggling in their own identity in this space. Just before we get into this episode, let's check in with Nora, our astrologer for the season, who's going to discuss Saturn Returns and its connection to one's sexuality. going to discuss Saturn returns and its connection to one's sexuality. Between the age of 28 and 30 not only does Saturn return but according to eastern astrology this is also the time when Mars matures. Mars in a chart indicates the ability to exert one's true will, to take meaningful action, to direct one's sexuality and explore one's sexual inclinations. In the chakra system, both Saturn

and Mars relate to the root and the sacral chakra. These energies are the points in our body that drive our habits, our sense of security, our creativity and our sexuality. After we turn 28, we start to feel a more urgent need to manifest a life that is completely aligned with our true will. Like we mentioned before, we make decisions at this time that set us up for adulthood. So it becomes harder at this time to ignore the voice inside of us that tells us to break free from our self-imposed restraints. Since Saturn will not only confront us with our true selves and our true sexuality and even sexual identity, but Mars will be bringing the drive for us to express ourselves

as authentically as possible to the world around us, to really exert our true will, to express our true sexuality and then to explore our sexuality and honour all of it. I've done a lot of crying over the last week just on my own well just happy tears yeah but also love happy tears overwhelmed tears you know because I happen to get up at 4am every day yeah I like I had a few drinks on Friday and I woke up Saturday and I had I had to have a bike ride to this local pond near me and I just sat and cried whilst looking at the pond like i was in an adele music video it was great i do that all the time yeah park oh so hit up anyone who lives near

hyde park go and check it out kaggy could be there at any time crying her eyes out i'm not telling you the part that i go to we all have our own part we all have our part that we go and whimsically cry and feel like we're in a music video 100 last time you came over we pretty much put the world's rights in every capacity possible absolutely yeah we basically did that thing you schooled me on a lot but you schooled me and then i schooled you so it was like when we see each other one of us is schooling the other one yeah and it goes from like listen you don't have to listen to me to listen to me let me tell you about dating and actually neither of us know what we're talking about well you definitely do actually you are the wisest woman I think that you do I always think because you tell me how it is I'm always like

god that's really true and you don't tell me what I want to hear no I don't you tell me what I need to hear well yeah but you've done that for me so many times should we talk about how we first met yeah okay so the first time we met was on my previous radio show um I think we bonded I don't know if you'll like me telling this story but we bonded because I brought up the fact that every time you release a song that's about a boy everyone's like oh it's about Spencer Matthews and you're like literally that thanks for bringing it up again yeah it's literally 52 years ago but no it's not um and I just we had a lot of lols about that so I think we kind of bonded and then yeah that's true and then it was during lockdown then when we suddenly oh Oh, that's when we properly, like, became friends is when I started listening to your podcast

because I'd just broken up with someone. I was just listening to you tell me how to... Unbreak my heart. That's quite good. Thank you. Tony Braxton's finest. So, yeah, you helped me and then I got you on my bath show, In the Bath with Harriet Rose. So my bath show in the bath with Harriet Rose

so we've been in the bath together now we're in a bed together and we're about to talk about the scale of sexuality amongst other things which is a big scale which is a big scale you actually put up something today that I found really interesting which was like like a pie chart of one's sexuality It's like if you're interested in the same gender or a different gender, and it didn't matter how much of the pie chart was separate, that still classifies you as bisexual. Who's making up the... Because you said that to me when we last met.

Because some people would disagree with that, or I think people think that it has to be evenly divided if you are bisexual. that or I think people think that it has to be evenly divided if you are bisexual well interestingly enough it's something that I have learned more recently I I would describe myself as queer because the word bisexual for me when I sort of realized so I didn't know necessarily that I was gay or had sort of feelings for women until I was about 21 to maybe 2021 and at that time the word bisexual was so sexualized for women yeah in a way that it was almost like through the male gaze for sure at least that was my experience of it was that people just really it was just it was I don't know I felt like every time I'd say the word, I would have to really explain like how bisexual I was, how gay I was, like what percentage

and more recently I've just realised that as a society, I get the impression that people are made to believe that it's 50-50. you're bisexual like say for example you fancied one woman and you really fancied her and you and you wanted to you know be with her then you can call yourself whatever you want any any label but that means you are bisexual someone can't define your sexuality just because of the amount of people of that sex that you fancy like that pie chart was like you could fancy one or a hundred women or one or a hundred men and it doesn't define how bisexual you are i think jamila jamil's spoken about it because yeah i just find that the whole label we're in like label mania at the moment and it's i find that

problematic in itself that we have to feel this need to identify a specific genre that you know creates our identity well there's two sides to it I reckon because I think some people take a lot of empowerment from labeling um do you yeah I think being queer when I heard the word queer and and sort of it started to be reclaimed and doesn't that also mean like a bit odd well i don't know what the dictionary definition is but let's have a look not that it's been used in like 100 years in that context no it hasn't yeah you're right queer the definition of queer is strange or odd or you are a bit queer then yeah it's completely separate from the gay thing i am completely queer but when

in gay in gay terms it was like used as an insult but now it's sort of been reclaimed and when I heard that word I was like I find bisexual means that people ask a lot of questions whereas queer they don't really ask questions and it's weird but I prefer that I prefer just is this for men or women or both maybe it's a projection but maybe in my mind I feel like men more than women but actually probably both it was just in the early days I remember I used to say things like oh I'm I'm actually bi or I'm going out with a girl and people would be like oh and it's like the questions you kind of get after that I just found them quite frustrating well to go back to that thing you

said about that sort of pie chart of like if you're interested in one woman that still makes you bisexual there seems to be for women the conversation is more open i'd say than it is for men in terms of like that scale of what you want to explore without it necessarily defining you as one thing or the other however a lot of women i know that are lesbians perhaps get frustrated with girls that are claiming bisexuality because they'll like kiss a girl on a night out but actually don't do much more what are your thoughts on that sort of area well I think that you should be able to define yourself however you want to define yourself because it's honestly none of anyone else's business and people who find it frustrating I see the point of view but really it's honestly none of anyone else's business and people who find it frustrating I I see the point of view but really it's nothing to do with you if I don't find a person attractive

it doesn't mean that I'm not as gay as the next person or as straight as the next person it's about people for me because I can only speak from my perspective I just think there's a lot of danger in telling other people that they're not something that they feel that they are because I think that's what's been happening over time because I think it is unfair to, like, pretend, for sure, but to go on a date with somebody because you want to try it out, I think is OK, no?

Of course. I don't know because I'm someone who didn't know and then I found out and then I knew. OK, so I want to talk to you about that the origins of queerdom the origins of queerdom in Harriet Rose as well that's a great film title like new lord of the rings the origins of queerdom with Harriet Rose I definitely had moments of queerness at when I was younger like what that i didn't really notice um like i remember saying to my mum once um she walked in the room and i was watching t4 which is

for anyone listening that doesn't know like a tv show about music from like 10 years ago we used to watch growing up yeah amazing and christina aguilera was doing a performance and um I remember my mum walking and I went I think I find Christina Aguilera attractive and she just went yeah that's fine and then walked out again and I was like okay and so I didn't even think about it but were you saying anywhere like um this is coming up for me and this is feeling weird yeah I was kind of like oh like I feel like weird feelings towards Christina Aguilera. Was it genie in a bottle? Because I get that.

It was either genie in a bottle or dirty. Can't remember. Of course it was with you. I think them all would work. And one of my best mates, we used to practice snogging on each other. But that was never really, I didn't think of it like in a sexual way. I just thought was practicing snogging and then I think a lot of girls do that regardless yeah exactly yeah but in retrospect I was like well maybe and then when I was about 21 I was like you know as you do snogging your mates on nights out and then I would snog someone that wasn't my mate and then I'd be like oh actually I think I fancy you and then were you okay with that not at all

I was so terrified by it because I'd had this completely straight life I had been in love with a boy who was so wonderful to me and we were together for like three or four years and I just did not get it I just didn't understand what it was that I was thinking about like I couldn't really put it wasn't clear no because it was like the kind of girls I fancied weren't the kind of thing that I'd been made to believe was what gay people which was awful my like for example I think I felt like all I fancied was other girls that were straight so I was like how am I going to be gay if I only fancy girls that seem to be straight was that because you didn't actually have a like a big gay community or that they just happen to

be the girls that you fancy they just happen to be the girls that I fancy at the time I think a lot of people I mean tell me if I'm wrong but at the beginning stages would experience the same sort of thing because it's all kind of new and you don't know how to approach it and so you just feel like you're going for these people that aren't actually interested that way inclined and then you're like okay you feel like you hit a bit of a a wall and you're like I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing or how to navigate this for sure and also I was devastated because I felt that meant that I wasn't going to have children. I remember sitting in my uni flat with my flatmates were out and just crying my eyes out, being like, I don't want to be different.

And now I look back on that person. I feel so sorry for them because it's just not true. Like you can have absolutely everything that a straight person, straight people have. And it's horrible that that's what you felt like and look there is a lot of other people that experience much worse because I had an amazing you said your fact you told me before that your family couldn't care less couldn't care less like they were just like in fact I remember my coming out story is so boring because it literally was me being like guys I think I fancy women they were like yeah we know like yeah I love that I think it's that thing where we build it up and build it up in our heads then we're like I've got something to tell you I was like yeah we knew that from the second we met you they were like yeah we know stop attention seeking I kind of guess I wanted this like big

coming out and it just wasn't but also you built it up in your mind and like you obviously had for whatever reason attached sort of shame and confusion around it yeah I did and I think it was related to school and you know boys that we used to know it's like you know oh horrible insults like oh don't be a lesbian and now I couldn't be prouder to be from where I'm from like people know that I'm gay and I think in part it's meant that other people in the same community, if their daughters have come out as gay, I know that they've, you know, maybe gone to my mum to ask about it. But do you think it's changed a lot?

I mean, even since then? Oh my God, hugely. So much. Hugely. The questions that I used to get asked, I never get asked now. Things that were like offensive at the time. Like what? I remember being on a shoot once before I became presenter and I said oh my girlfriend and they went oh my god I thought you meant like girlfriend girlfriend like gay and I was like

I do and it was just like moments like that that would happen all the time but I mean you know you still get it now like I remember recently like a few months ago I was on a date with a girl and somebody walked past and said something along the lines of oh can I get involved and I said no thanks mate um and he got really angry and was like you disgusting no I think he was just drunk and honestly if I think I had a conversation with him today he would be really embarrassed about what he said in that moment his ego fractured ego I was gonna say yeah he got a little bit bruised but again I'm I come from a very privileged position and and I've really not experienced very much of that but that kind of thing is is probably

like it does happen you know and it's changed so much now and so I sort of came out at the time fell in love with a straight girl I think most girls have to fall in love with a straight girl to initiate the rite of passage yeah well at least it was for me it was a real um baptism of fire I'll tell you that much but did she fall in love with you? No, she did not. Not at all. Did you tell her that you loved her? Yes.

And what did she say? She cried and she said, I'm really sorry. I just don't feel like that about you. Were you like best friends? We were very, very close friends, yeah. But I had thought it was different. And she was so wonderful about it. And I was like, this sense of relief that I'd been holding this burden for so long.

And then it was out. And then once that happened. It didn't even matter. Like the response was actually just releasing it. Yeah. It was like, I almost knew the answer. I almost knew because it hadn't happened. So I was like, this is the right thing.

And it was wonderful. We're still friends now. It's also just, it was an opportunity for you to speak your truth and step into that vulnerability and I think when we when we allow ourselves the grace to do that we forget that the victory comes from doing it not from the response of the other person and it's really weird but it's a bit like when you break up with someone it's like when you don't text them back when you don't look at their Instagram story there is that excited feeling of like you're winning. And it's the same as like stepping out

into that vulnerability and being like, oh, I love you. And it was like early, you know, to do that as my first gay move. It's a big move. It was like big moves and also like, well, if you can do that. Exactly.

Ripped off the bandaid. And then it's like, okay, let's go. Yeah. And then what happened? How did you go from like finding girls that were only straight to then actually finding ones that weren't uh good question that gave me confidence to be like oh okay you can let go of that now that's been holding you back because it was holding me back for quite a long time then I left uni and um met my first girlfriend like almost immediately.

We didn't go out for very long. She was great. She was lovely. But we didn't work very well together. So once you just popped the bubble, how would you... You were going to say pop the cherry, weren't you? Then you tried to veer away and then it just made it so much worse. Let's just let that sit for a moment i'm going red i'm filming it so it's great um so yeah once once i had got that confidence i definitely moved on to um bigger and better

things in terms of like actually meeting people that fancied me which was honestly so exciting yeah and this is something i think really interesting going back to what we're saying about bisexuality or queerness is my gayness changes day to day interesting so expand on that a little well i got i would say i'm a lot more gay than i am straight more in terms of the pie chart in terms of pie chart the pie chart from boys is small but it's still there and but then it changes all the time depending on who you meet exactly place you're in in yourself you could say in some ways I'm kind of pan because I know pansexual is I believe that's when you fancy the person but for me I do I do see it as like women and men in my head although also find non-binary people attractive and like there's no,

gender doesn't bother me in that sense. But I definitely, I fancy everyone basically is what I'm trying to say. And there's no scale to attach to it. I just fancy who I fancy. Do you know what I mean? I think to open up a bit about my own experience because when you came over for dinner.

Well, I wasn't sure if you wanted to, so I didn't say anything. You're being very respectful. I'm not sure if I want to either but I think that's exactly why I should because and I don't again I don't see it's not my influence by the way everyone I don't see it as a big deal because everyone in my life that I know is like pretty used to it like I used to kiss girls far more than I'd kiss guys growing up and then I remember when we you look so you look more uncomfortable than me and then when we had did it you were like I think you're straight as an arrow or something I did not think and that is that is a complete you know awful

judgment on my part but I just said oh I just had it in my head that you were completely straight yeah it was totally wrong my management introduced me some people in the music industry who you know two of them are gay and I'd hung out with them and had you know various conversations and then they said to my management they were like by the way Kagi is whatever Kagi is whatever she wants whatever she wants to be and my manager was like no she's not and then my manager came to me and was like, you won't believe what they said. And I was like, no, they're actually right. But I don't know, maybe it's just not something I've ever talked about publicly because it's just not come up in conversation. I feel like more straight and I've you know I've never had a relationship with a woman but I would be open to it it's just not something that's happened I actually thought that it might happen when I moved to LA because I suddenly wasn't part of the like social group that I was growing up in because that group I mean as far as I know no one has come out in it which statistically you know a

few people are hiding yeah I don't know I don't know if I'm one of them but like it was something that I even though you know I'd kiss girls and stuff like that it wasn't um it wasn't something I ever overthought it was just you know I'd go out on a night out and I would find a girl that I was attracted to I mean my guy friends would always say they were like you would literally come and like steal a girl off us and like take her away and you think you could do that because you're a girl I'm like yeah and so there was a lot of stuff like that happening and I'd say obviously I'm not going to like name any names but a lot more of my girlfriends are on this scale of like fluidity more so than they'd care to admit and they perhaps

wouldn't be so open with it because of family and stuff like that and I've got to say for me right now what's coming up for me is this fear of speaking something and then it being out there and then people wanting to label me as something especially as I've never actually talked to my family about it I remember like when I was young my dad making this comment about someone in our like family sort of disconnected by one or whatever was, had said she was bisexual or lesbian or something. And he'd, he'd attributed that to like something to do with that being a political statement. And I just remember thinking like, I fancy a girl. It's definitely not about politics do you know I mean like that's the last thing on my mind and there were little things like that

that made me feel like if I spoke it it would be a statement to do with something that it's nothing to do with that's so interesting yeah like I'm trying to like project something and also you you've like almost like osmosis you've sucked these thoughts in that have then stopped you from speaking about it yeah I totally hear you because in a way it's like okay now you've said it it's like is she bi is she queer is she gay and then how does that tie in with one sort of like I know it sounds crazy but like one's political views because they are often interlinked and then it's like suddenly people start weaving this tapestry of like the kind of person you are it's like no I'm still just me that this is just like another layer of who I am and how does it feel to talk about it and be open about it in and knowing that this is going

out to for people to 100,000 people um weird because another experience I had not so long ago was I went away on a trip with some guy friends and like it was just me and these guys just laughing non-stop and I actually feel like in a way a lot more comfortable in that kind of male energy than I do with girls I find the sense of humor yeah like I think I grew up with four brothers so I've got quite like a masculine energy about me I'd say sometimes and like the humor and everything and the silliness like I just love it um and like the conversation around sexuality came up because obviously like lads chat is like very you know different and the way they talk about girls and everything and it doesn't bother me and it doesn't offend me. And then like it kind of came into conversation about, you know,

where I sit on that scale. And they were kind of taken aback and then were fine with it. And then months later, one of them, who's remained a very, very good friend of mine, he was like, yeah, I've been thinking about like you and like being bisexual. And he's like, I'm not buying it. I'm calling bullshit.

And like I could see how he'd taken that information and processed it like I was saying it to like I don't know seduce or impress or like turn them on yeah which is and that's my so frustrating which is frustrating because then that you know it takes something that's mine and makes it not yeah and also it's like well who are you to tell me how i feel about my own sexuality and that is exactly the point of the point of the bisexual connotations and how like men take that and they're like well it's a performance for me and i don't believe that you truly embody it otherwise like why don't i see you like doing it in front of me and it's he

absolutely has no right and no does no and so does i don't have any right nobody has any right to tell you how gay or straight you are yeah or how where you sit what label you want to give yourself or what that means or what gender you would like to be or or non-gendered or and that and that's the whole point is that people just feel the need to like tell and I've fallen for the trap before with in terms of bisexuality and like other people being like saying they're bi and me being like but are you really you know when I was a lot younger that's why I think it's also fine for people to not come out at all yeah because on on the flip side of that as well and this is probably where my reluctancy lies is people then suddenly getting on the

bandwagon of making like their own personal statement about like how they identify and like what do you know what I mean and it becomes this whole like thing in itself which I don't necessarily want or need or feel for yourself you mean Because it realistically, it's nobody's business. Exactly. So that's why I'm like, had the sort of slight hesitancy to talk about it on this. But my reasoning for doing so is not to try and make a statement about like, how I want to come across in any kind of way other than give people the freedom to feel the same about themselves. Exactly. And also the truth your experience is

also really valid because I had this similar thing when I came out of a lot of men and female friends of mine actually as well saying don't worry I think it's a phase what who's worrying like what's happening here yeah how insulting though I don't blame them it's society at that time you know it's like it's not a phase it's a changing day-to-day feeling of who you find attractive yeah you know I've definitely felt in the last few months like more interested in maybe going on a date with a guy than I have been for a while because I haven't actually dated a man but it's great that you're in tune with that and that you allow yourself you know know, that freedom and flexibility.

I think there's like a massive shift that's happening, but we would all be a lot more open to that than I think people let on. Yeah. The only experience, well, not the only experience, but when, like I said, in LA, I kind of had this thing of like, OK, this is going to be the time to do it. Yeah. And I tried but it didn't interesting that you said that thing of like girls didn't fancy because it was like girls didn't fancy me and I went on a date with this one girl and I literally thought I was in love with her I was like oh my god this girl is incredible did she know it was a date well I thought she did but I don't think she it was

one of because again it's like it could so easily be a date if it's mutual but then it can very quickly be like well this was just in the same way that it could be like a heterosexual situation yeah and it was very intense in terms of like the emotional side of it like she really opened up to me and like I think at the end of it she told me she loved me, which is very classic for me. Why does that happen to you all the time? It really does. Honestly, I can't get people to go on a date with me, let alone tell me they love me at the end of the first meeting.

But then the next time I met her, she was, like, introducing me to this guy that she was seeing. And I was so heartbroken. And then I kind of, of like retreated a little bit and then yeah I just kind of have like given up I think that you can you can help me with this because I think there's a fear when I first realized I was gay I was so terrified of sleeping with a woman for sure terrified but it's I think a lot of girls say to me who have um like thought about sleeping with women or being with women is they are really scared of of it happening because they just

don't know what to do because they don't know how to physically do it yeah but actually like logically that makes no sense like really for a lot of people because if you are in tune with your own body you'll be able to in tune yourself with another person who's got the similar body to you. I can't believe we're having this conversation. I just had a moment of like, my mom listening to being like, what is she doing? But I'll say on that front that, yes, I agree. But also I think my fear around it was like because I'm curious you know and I and I think the the female form and aesthetic and like beauty is the feminine you know and that's something I've always from like a really young age like I was always obsessed with models like

obsessed I knew all the supermodels names and I knew who was the like next new big face and stuff and just like the female form and everything but then I don't know necessarily whether that connects entirely to one's sexuality so I guess when it actually would come down to like the physical act I'd be scared that I would be like revolted by it yeah I guess in terms of consent and sex like you can always stop and if you're like I'm not feeling it yeah yeah but I know what you mean I don't know what the answer that is though I know because I just feel like a lot of people listening or I hope, like some people might be quite shocked by all of this, but...

I'm shocked that I'm saying all of this. That's so funny. So my friend actually was like, yeah, I mean, you're really like, every week on your podcast, I'm like, oh, what is she going to share this week and this season? That's why I love it so much. I have like nothing, nothing left. But also I think that there's so much power in

vulnerability and sharing these things you taught me that yeah thanks but for people listening I think that if they're like trying to navigate their sexuality and if they in for whatever reason are feeling lonely or isolated or not knowing how to communicate it and what they're experiencing like what would your advice be for this like to have a conversation like we are with someone what I would say and I think I've just been thinking about this now as we're talking about it is your feelings whatever your feelings are are so valid in that moment however you feel is valid and if you have feelings in your mind for the same sex as you and you never act on it, that does not devalue your feelings in any way, shape or form or your label or how you feel about yourself. I found somebody who'd had a similar experience and I sat down with her and I was like, I think I'm gay.

I don't know what to do. And that was so helpful for me. I think talking to other people is really key but also making sure you talk to people that you really trust do you think that people think that they have to redefine their identity if they are more open about their sexuality that's such an interesting question because I think that that's a big part of the reason people stay quiet and don't have these dialogues is because they're scared of if they speak it it's going to suddenly be taken off into something other than what they are

you know do you know what I mean and then create this whole entity around it and I think that that's been like part of the experience for me in a way well I guess as well you're in the public eye so it's like the things that you do say can be taken. I mean, I don't have it so much, but when I was young and I had it, it was horrible because it was like you say one thing that's a bit off or like a bit opinionated in a certain direction, and suddenly that's like, bam, you know, that's who you are. But essentially even, you know, just with with friends can feel just as daunting i

think when you speak about it if you find that people aren't receptive to it then maybe take a step back not saying cut them out your life but take a step back and and and also the other thing is you can have these feelings and be in a heterosexual relationship of course and you don't have to worry no i worry so much I was so terrified that it would mean I couldn't have children I wouldn't have a normal family I wouldn't have a normal life um some people around me were worried I'd be bullied and none of that came true obviously I haven't had children I am single at the moment hit her up shout out but um I know that I want to have kids and I want to um have a partner and I know I can achieve all that I just hope that people can feel a sense of community that that is open and willing

to listen and wants to be surround you and and respect you and and see you and hear you like us talking about it on this podcast I hope you can feel a sense of link with us that if you have these feelings even one person that you fancy or 10 or whatever doesn't matter you can feel part of a community without feeling like you have to completely redefine yourself absolutely like recently I snogged a boy I was like wow like I really loved that and even for me I was like oh well there you go back into loved that. And even for me, I was like, oh, well, there you go. Back into your life, boys have come back in. Like, it's just fancying people.

It's all about the energy that person gives off. Because you can find someone aesthetically beautiful or attractive and meet them and be like, God, our energies are like polar opposite. Yeah. And then you can meet someone that you actually don't find like physically attractive. You're like, wow, there's like a really intense energy between us exactly but ultimately I want someone that's able to meet me with like honesty integrity and kindness and show up in that way and that's worth waiting for and when it when it comes like you know it because energetically it feels totally fucking different and I've that. I've been lucky enough.

The thing that I've learned this year is that we kind of get told, you'll meet this one person and you'll be together for the rest of your life. And if you don't have that, there's something wrong. And actually, I think there's so much to be said for having meaningful relationships. And they still mean as much as they did, even if you end. And actually, now i look back and i'm like i'm so lucky and grateful that i've been in love and i've loved that person so deeply and they've loved me back yes every connection i think is valuable even if it is

like short-lived and essentially a relationship is a teacher like you're gonna mirror each other and you're gonna grow together as well i taught you when i was going through the breakup i was listening to i can't remember who you were on the podcast with was it my solo I think it was your solo episode yeah because I've had the exact same thing recently where I've had something that wasn't long term but it was so powerful and when I was listening to your podcast like crying into my bath I realized that like it's still okay to have that pain and that feeling even if you've been with someone for a short amount of time what I would say and I don't know if you taught me this but we've definitely talked about it before is writing

down thank you thank you thank you to that person and also if you write if you're really struggling I think writing a letter to that person and not sending it, but just having that emotion, getting those emotions out. You have to put it on the page. Yeah, I found that always helpful. And also to ourselves, because I think we allow ourselves to like ruminate on these narratives and these stories and this like toxic thought pattern.

And then that's why people don't really get over situations because they're like they're holding on to it physically and mentally and spiritually and actually the practice of writing something out in a letter and giving it that time and giving it like your full attention is so cathartic and so powerful just don't send it to them you No, don't send it. Because they'll think you're crazy. Also, this is another thing that I've learned, is 24 hours before you send any reply that is coming from person. Everyone, you're banned from any less than 24 hours. It's so true.

And by the way, the impulse is real. It's like, gonna send it, gonna send it, right? And it's like, don't, don't send it. Because the change, like, I've literally woke up in the morning and been like, thank the universe that I did not send that message yesterday because it's just not how you feel you're just reacting yeah something and you don't want to react you want to respond yeah yes yes yes and I would write a message the initial message I'll be like let's just put that

in notes and then the next day another one oh and put that in notes as well and then like a week later i would read them back and i was like oh my god i sound mental because you're processing so much stuff that's your shit because we're all projecting we're all projecting and we're like connecting it to them and making them the villain and making them responsible for like how we're feeling. But actually, ultimately, no one's responsible for your happiness. No, no. And that's something. Wow, wow, wow. I've been learning over the last few months. And I'm so much happier now. I'm not there yet, for sure.

But I'm so much happier because I'm trying to become and I am becoming comfortable single and happy to not be reliant on someone else it's actually very validating and if anyone's listening being like I really struggle to do that so do I I'm not saying that I find it easy but it's getting easier the more I try and put my attention to it yeah but then occasionally I hear comments that people make that are sort of like very ancient sort of conversation around like what women should be doing in a certain age it sounds so archaic and I'm like really I've had people even message me being like 28 I'm still single what do I do I was like wrong audience people like I think that is such an important thing to raise because all my life I thought that I was going to be engaged at 30 I

thought I was going to be doing x y and z I cannot tell you how liberating it is to realize that that is utter nonsense and everybody's time comes when it comes and if it happens in this way and happens in that way it doesn't matter like do not listen to that if anything turning 30 was the most exciting thing in the world because it liberated me from achieving those shackles of society yeah and like in terms of my career I've worked really really hard to get to where I am and I'm now doing my dream job we're both 31 and I feel like it over like our Saturn return and like now where we are we're like in a good place independently in ourselves. And it's hugely empowering, actually. My friend Daisy said to me on my 31st birthday, she was like, babe, strap yourself in because this is the best one.

And honestly, my life has got better year on year. Because I remember I had a meeting when I was like 25 where people were like, oh, you need to hurry up. And that is the problem. It's other people. It's not you. It's not you. problem it's other people it's not you it's not you and it's irrelevant and that's how people get stuck in the wrong relationships or the wrong job or the wrong whatever because you think I haven't got time but you've got so much time and also being happy is much more important than not being single yeah and that's the same I guess linking back to the to being you know your sexuality and stuff, is you could be 65 and decide you want to be completely gay now. Like, it's not, there's no time like the present, honey.

I hope people listening take from this episode as, like, an invitation and an opportunity to just feel whatever they're feeling and to express that. If anything, I've been more welcomed for being open about my sexuality and I I almost talk about it more than I probably should because I want people to be able to feel comfortable with people being open about things like that you know because when you are your truest authentic self then you will find like vibrationally find the right people that meet you there yeah and i'm just grateful to everyone who's come before in the in the queer community that's

paved the way like marsha p johnson and all the people that fought for the rights that we now have to be able to be unsure uh experimental curious and i also curious exactly and i also really want to say in terms of bisexuality and and because i can only speak from a female perspective but i do also feel that the stigma that is attached to men being bisexual has to go that's really interesting because for women we seem to be allowed to be fluid on the scale whereas with men it's like oh no you're just you're gay it's something that really troubles me needs to have more of a conversation around it yeah i don't know i've

met a lot of men and i've hung around with a lot of men who who definitely are that way and i try and surround myself with people that are open and fluid with their gender and sexuality and and i'm not telling anyone that they're wrong i'm just saying open-mindedness would be so much more productive and powerful i love that thanks babes well thank you so much for coming on talking about this I think this is going to be really amazing for people listening I hope we've both shared quite a lot I trust you so much and I feel like in these moments being open and vulnerable as we've discussed we are all the way through our lives and I I'm I think you know I listen to your podcast and I gain a lot from it so I hope somebody like one person is maybe

feeling good about themselves from it she's terrifying all right we love you thank you thank you bye I really hope you enjoyed this episode I love this conversation with Harriet and you know there are a couple of moments when I was listening back I was like um do I really want to share that but she shares a lot as well it was a big share party and yeah I think it's just a really interesting conversation to be had and I hope that it inspires some thoughts within you guys listening because we do live in a world where it's labels galore like everyone wants to categorize themselves and other people as a sort of form of safety but you know I kind of sit on the other side of that I think that

we don't have to and we are who we are for ourselves. And it's just all about being able to be authentic and truthful to what our desires, our needs, our personalities, everything. And to feel safe and seen and a sense of belonging when we can be our full selves. And I think that that is the complicated thing with sexuality is people feel that they might not be accepted for who they are and I hope this encourages you that you will be you will be accepted for who you are and you will find your tribe they might not be immediately around you right now but I promise you you will and when you step into that space of authenticity and vulnerability, you'll find the right people. So on that note, if you have any thoughts, questions, queries, you can get in touch with me or Harriet at IamHarrietRose on Instagram. I'm at Kagi's World.

We now have the Saturn Returns Instagram account, which is very exciting, which is at Saturn Returns Podcast. And if you would like a reading from Nora, you can find her at Stars Incline. I really appreciate your messages and your feedback and hearing from all of you who have listened. You know, this podcast has been shared through word of mouth and through you guys recommending it. So thank you very much and please continue to do so.

If you do like this podcast, I would also appreciate it if you could give us a five star review because that really helps us get discovered by more like-minded people. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Debra Dudgeon and the executive producer is Kate Taylor.

So until next time everyone thank you very much for listening and remember you are not alone goodbye