Saturn Returns with Caggie - 2.7 Self Partnering: Catherine Gray

Episode Date: November 16, 2020

In this Episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie is joined by writer and author of the 'The Unexpected Joy Of'  book series. They discuss what self-partnership looks like, and dismantle the societal pressures we feel to settle down and why choosing to be single might bring you more joy that you expect. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Dare to build this alternative single future where, you know, what will happen if you don't meet somebody? Or you just have love affairs and what kind of beautiful, happy life could you build and have that in your head? Because that is an escape chute from any toxic relationship that you may find yourself in. In this episode, I am joined by the writer, Catherine Gray, author of the book series, The Unexpected Joy of Being So book series The Unexpected Joy of Being

Sober and The Unexpected Joy of Being Single. And if I may say so myself, there are some pearls of wisdom in this episode, so listen closely. We talk about sobriety, sober dating and all that entails, self-partnership, love addiction and dealing with breakups. A lot of you message me about relationships and being single, expressing some fear around it. Now, especially going through one Saturn return, when you're approaching 30, there is a lot of pressure in society and relationships are just, they're complicated. And for all the advancements we've made, we are still quite archaic in this way of thinking that a woman's worth is measured by whether or not she's been chosen by a man.

And Catherine looks at this very differently. And in this episode, we explore what self-partnership looks like and what that means. Now, I know that this isn't for everyone, and I don't think you have to resign yourself to it forever. I just think it's useful to question why you feel a certain way. You know, is it what you really want? Or is it what society is telling you? Is it what your parents are telling you? Or what your friends are doing?

It's just important to be curious about these sorts of things. Because, you know, I think we need to take the pressure off ourselves a little bit. And I hope this episode will help in doing so. And I just wanted to add on a personal note, in the spirit of honesty that I discuss in this episode, that when you love yourself and like yourself, that rejection doesn't hurt as much. And I have to say that ironically, just after I recorded this episode, and I mean like straight after, I started dating someone and experienced what felt like a huge rejection actually and I've said in my solo episode that time is not necessarily a

measure of the pain we feel in in relationship and this one really floored me so I thought I would just add that that by no means am I immune to heartbreak. After all, I am a mere mortal. And I just wanted to say that because when I listened back, I thought, if only you knew. So before we get into this episode, here is our astrological guide for the season, Nora. And you can find her on Instagram at Stars Incline if you want reading. Between the ages of 24 and 27, Venus, the love planet, matures. And at this time, we really start to learn what our real love needs are, what our love language is, what we want in a relationship and we start to explore the ideas of self-love and also giving ourselves the worth that we deserve. So it's really the idea of like

attracts like. If you're valuing yourself, if you are giving yourself the worth you deserve, you'll attract somebody who'll be doing the same thing so the time before saturn return is preparing you for that but the progress lunar return is kind of initiating you into emotional maturity and usually by the time that you're over the saturn return or by the end of it you'll really be mastering that idea of self-partnership and by the time that you're in your 30s hopefully you'll be attracting healthy dynamics and you won't really be looking for relationships as much if they're not fulfilling all of your love needs so you've written these incredible books that have sort of changed people's lives about

singleton and sobriety are you single at the moment firstly yes I'm single you are um and I'm 40 and would you believe I have never been happier in my life you got sober at 33 33 so that would you say that that like through your late 20s to early 30s that it was brewing for a while that this was something that you needed to address oh yeah definitely so 27 28 was when I started trying to reduce my drinking because I was aware that problematic yeah I had a lovely life I was working at glamour magazine I had a beautiful um flat with my best friend in Ballam and a lovely boyfriend and I could tell that I was gonna screw it all up if I continued drinking the way I was

drinking my friends even nicknamed me booze hag you don't want that to be your nickname you don't want that as a nickname like it's quite endearing in your early 20s perhaps you can get away with it but then like I think something shifts yeah and obviously this is what the whole podcast is about is about that shift during your Saturn returns in your late 20s where you're just like this is so unbecoming now yeah to start you know and also I could tell that my workmates who had been very warm to me at the beginning were really starting to freeze over my my nickname at work was sick note again a nickname you don't want not good nicknames so I really started trying to get a handle on it and just completely failed so then when I was 30 my boyfriend at at the time, who was like my longest

relationship to date, we were together for three years and we were definitely planning to get married and do the whole thing, just dumped me because of my unreasonable behavior and my drinking and me just being a twat. And I just went off the rails and stopped even trying to control my drinking. So that led me to 33 when I quit. But also the love addiction thing was like a second sobriety for me. So the love addiction that you talk about, was that something that you were aware of at the time? Or was that after going sober, you suddenly were like, oh, I have love addiction addiction it was definitely after going sober that I realized it I didn't I actually thought my behavior was quite normal before going sober but I think when you quit drinking you wake up to all sorts of behaviors like I didn't know that I was socially anxious

until I quit drinking because I had stuffed it down for so long um and I had a relationship in early sobriety very early sobriety and it only lasted six seven months something like that and when it ended I was absolutely crushed even though I didn't love him wow and I was like why am I so devastated and so I really deep dove into that and unpicked it and dismantled it. And it was because I was 33 and I really felt like I should be getting married and having kids at that age. So you're putting that pressure on yourself. Yeah. And because I wasn't, I felt like such a failure as a human being. It wasn't about him. It wasn't about that breakup.

It was about I felt like as a single person I'd failed and I was a loser because I wasn't getting married. Isn't that so sad, though, that we think like that, that we've been conditioned to think like that? I know. Because it sounds like it was less about him and the relationship, but that was a sort of plaster for something that was bubbling underneath. And then when that was removed, it sort of erupted. Yeah, erupted yeah like a feeling that you probably had that you were keeping at bay with that

relationship yeah and I then realized I looked back over my adulthood and from the ages of 18 to 33 I had only been single for a grand total of six months whoa I know I mean that's a lot of dating that's a lot of boyfriends because as soon as I broke up with somebody I would be on the hunt for someone else and those six months were basically spent interviewing potential boyfriends like no moment in between it's like breakup okay on to the next yeah pretty much within a few weeks and my friends begged me to take time off they were like you need to reset and recalibrate what you want and not just hurtled into the next relationship but there was always someone there waiting and I was probably subconscious well it was queuing them up as well I was a major flirt yeah and you said as well that with the drinking that you there was infidelity yes there was I was a major flirt. Yeah. And you said as well that with the drinking that you, there was infidelity.

Yes, there was. I was pretty much not faithful to anyone when I was drinking. And since I quit drinking, almost seven years, I have not cheated once. So, I mean, for me, I thought I was a cheater. I thought there was something wrong with me deep down like some bone deep thing where I couldn't be faithful actually it was just the drinking and I felt so guilty about it as well my cheating was never premeditated it was always go out get drunk accidentally fall on a man that's not my boyfriend but there was also probably quite dark moments that where I was in blackout and I don't actually

remember what happened and then waking up in a strange bed did you acknowledge the time or not really I was so ashamed of the fact that I couldn't remember what happened that I brazened it out and sort of erased it from your mind pretended I remembered what happened because I couldn't confront the fact that I was getting blackout drunk so regularly. The blackout thing is, I used to experience that as well. Yeah. Where like something would switch and I'd just, I'd be, you know, animated, walking, talking, doing stuff. Yeah. But I, it wasn't really me.

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that people don't understand about blackouts. it wasn't really me. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that people don't understand about blackouts. You can be appear like a functioning person in a nightclub, um, who can do things like order drinks and, um, talk to people, but you're not there anymore. And the most primal part of your brain is in charge when you're in a blackout, which is why you do mad shit like I don't know get aggressive with people or cheat or eat fried chicken when you wouldn't normally so it it felt like being two people yeah um yeah and to go back to the relationship thing okay so if we take that back because most of this stuff does stem from childhood and observing relationship within our family dynamics and stuff. Would you say that that played a big part in the way that you approach relationships in life?

Yes. I mean, I saw a lot of broken relationships through my childhood. But it was also hammered home to me that the most important thing I was to do as a girl and then a woman was to get married that was from both parents yeah it really was from both parents and when I turned 33 and I was single one of the reasons I was so devastated was because my dad started calling me a spinster that really upset me and he wasn't kidding and he said that he'd um renamed my wedding fund the egg freezing fund yeah that really upset me as well but it's just I mean that lack of sensitivity can be really damaging yeah I think it can be and it's but it's also something that kids learn from a very very young age like my niece started asking me when she was four why aren't you married auntie Catherine

she doesn't think that independently like she's picked that up that's been planted somewhere and i think it a lot of it is from fairy tales and movies and literature yeah and it sticks i remember reading in your book about young girls playing with like barbies that can pee themselves. And you just wanted to like be on a dirt bike and everything. Yeah, I wanted to be on a BMX. I've never come across a Barbie that pees herself, but I would. Was that not what it was? Am I making that up?

That's hilarious. It was just one of those, you know, those baby dolls. That was just us in our 20s. Yeah, that was too good. That was boot camp dolls. Just us all. Like, ow! That's so funny.

Yeah, so I think, yeah, I mean, as a kid, I was given dolls and my brother was given bikes and robots and whatever, and I just wanted to play with his toys and climb trees. And I guess that starts off that messaging of like this is your purpose you know to have children to create a home yeah and when you look at the words that are used for men and women in terms of singleness it's so stark the difference women are called you know spinsters men are called bachelors bachelors is a good term it's a neutral or positive term and you know we're crying at home with our cats knitting fair isle sweaters while they're off having a whirl of a time even until they're 40 just getting better and better and better

whereas my dad once told me that men appreciate like houses as in they gain value whereas women depreciate like cars as in they peak at 25 and then that's it all the way down your dad told you that yeah okay so your dad seems to have quite a lot to answer for i think i have a bit of an issue with your dad he's actually um he's gone now he died a few years and no don't worry don't worry don't worry that wasn't to make you feel bad but actually even though his death was tragically tragically sad and devastating it did allow me to move past some of those damaging notions that he because did you feel like that yeah that that pressure that you said when you uh came out of that relationship at 33 and you just crumbled was that sort of in the

back of your mind of like what's my dad gonna say yeah and my wider family as well you know it wasn't just him it was coming from all sides I don't know whether people even realize they're doing it like I was at a dinner party the other night and saying how happy I was being single at 40 and then somebody started um who I love dearly just giving me completely unsolicited advice about how to secure a relationship but I also think it's so to do with the people you surround yourself with because I have groups of friends that are all sort of settled down and that's their thing and I'm perfectly happy for them that that's what they want to do but then I also have other communities that aren't yeah and so I just make sure that I'm

like not constantly in a situation where I feel like I'm being compared to people that would pressure me to do so yeah well that's great you need that balance you really do and interestingly at your point in life people will be getting married and having the kids and everything will seem quite happy and idealistic right now but from my point of life people are starting to get divorced and they're having really messy divorces and it's made me question if I ever even want to get married and I really think now that maybe I don't because I've seen how complicated it is to get divorced and I um read it in your book as well that for you it's always been such a catalyst for your work yeah the sort of alchemy of a breakup was like rocket fuel for your career

yeah it kind of gave you this like new invigoration and I felt like that for me as well and it's always been the case if I look back I've had these relationships that have been very all-consuming and I sort of abandoned myself in the process and then went in the demise especially if the demise is bad I always use it as a sort of springboard to like get my shit together because otherwise I'm going to drown yeah I mean so like if our life is a pie chart I think our relationship segment takes up a huge amount in our minds and because we've been brought up that way that it like when it disappears you have this empty void whereas I've just been slowly just making it like a little bit smaller a little bit smaller so it's still a significant chunk yeah but the other things around it make me fulfilled so that when someone comes along if they're not right

even if they're like good in a lot of ways I'm able to say I'm okay yeah I really I don't need someone to just come and like fill that gap because it's not it's not this void anymore yeah but then I was speaking with a friend about it and I was saying how now I'm sort of thinking perhaps you know I quite like the idea of being single why do I have to have children why do I have to get married I can paint whatever picture I want for how I want my life to look and so I was like you know I'm just going to have lovers around the world and she was like I can imagine you doing that and that's great but are you doing that because you've been hurt and it's like a form of self-protection on some deep subconscious level and I was like huh it would be so deep that I don't even know about it but it's an interesting thought

yeah where is the balance between sort of cultivating independence and actually building up a wall yeah I think that's so interesting and it's so difficult to unplat what you actually want and what is a self-defensive oh we'll sub that I'll just you know go and live forever. Yeah, just have a sailor in every port. A sailor in every port. I love it. I mean, it's quite aspirational if you ask me.

I love that idea. But it's the way I approach it now is I do have, and it's so strong in my mind, I can see it, a single future that I do not need anyone else to build. And it involves so strong in my mind, I can see it, a single future that I do not need anyone else to build. And it involves a farmhouse and lots of animals named after musical icons like Hendrix the horse and Cher the goose and Bross the ducklings. And I could go on and on. Animal farm, basically. Exactly.

And I don't need anyone else to create that. I can do that because, you know, I've got a good career now. And actually, I don't think I would have this career if I had married at 31, which was what I was on track to do and had kids. I don't actually think I would have had the time to build up all these books and, you know, do this. Relationships are really time consuming. Oh my God, yeah. There's compromise and something's got to give. up all these books and you know do this relationships are really time consuming oh my god yeah there's compromise and yeah something's got to give they say that you know your friendships will either suffer or your career or your relationship but to manage all three perfectly is tough yeah and I

definitely think that because of the nature of who I am and I think it might be similar to the way you used to function was in this sort of like love addictive uh mentality that when someone came along that I was into it was literally like everything went to the bottom of the list and they like took up the first 20 like numbers even if you'd only known them for three weeks they were right at the top three minutes like honestly it doesn't take more than that I'm like I will not get carried away I mean there's a reason why love addiction is often referred to as the second sobriety after the drinking thing it's very common in AA to have a year off dating in order to sort of get

yourself stable because that just becomes the next addiction if they don't. Yeah, I completely ignored that advice when I was somebody immediately. Was this the person that you were with at 33? Yes, and then we broke up and then I was like, oh yeah, that advice was quite good advice actually. Would you say that you just poured the addiction into him then? No, I don't think it's as simple as that. I think that was always my secondary addiction. But I just wasn't aware of it until I quit my primary addiction, which was the drinking. And I think what happened was I started drinking in my teens, in a way to get closer to guys, because I was very anxious and nervous. And, you know, at a party, I would have been the wallflowerflower and then I drank to turn myself into the party starter and it was I was a hit guys loved me so I and then you were like this is a winning formula yeah so extent I think we all did growing up

because alcohol is introduced primarily as a sort of social lubricant in those situations where women don't know how to talk to men men don't know how to talk to women yeah and it just enables you to do so I mean even now dating sober is such an interesting thing because that is, I can barely remember first kiss in my life that wasn't after, you know, quite a lot to drink. Yeah. I mean, I had no idea how to do it. And that was terrifying.

I felt so naked and so like, how do people kiss? I don't know how I'm going to do that. And I think that stops people from continuing because that is such a fearful place because it's also very vulnerable and exposing and you are just you yeah you know sort of take it or leave it and then heaven forbid if they leave it it might crush you yeah but also I think that if you are in a place where you like and accept yourself it doesn't really hurt that much. No, it doesn't. And I really want to like push that point across to people because I think that they think rejection is just the thing to be avoided at all costs.

But actually, it like it stings momentarily. But when you like yourself, it's like, well, literally their loss. Their loss. And I think it comes back to what you were saying that amazing thing with the pie chart it doesn't collapse into itself if the bulk of it is not romantic relationships if you've got loads of other things going on which you tend to have that when you have high self-esteem so that it doesn't really matter if this date doesn't work out and I used to crush like a paper bag even if a guy I'd only known for seven hours

ghosted me because I felt like that meant I was unworthy and not wanted because you on some level felt that about yourself yeah and now I mean it still hurts of course it does but as you say you just bounce back so much more quickly yeah you came up with an analogy that I really liked about sort of like the scaffolding that we have in place that keeps things up, but actually can be counterproductive. And it's almost like the architecture that we have formed in our lifetime isn't always built on steady foundations and our dependency and our self-worth relies on that external validation from like the male gaze and from someone messaging you back and wanting to see you again yeah and there's that amazing poem by dr zeus the waiting place and honestly i felt like in my 20s and early 30s i lived in the waiting place I was always waiting for something for someone to text me back or someone to want another date or if I was in a long-term relationship

I was waiting for you know him to want to move in with me or whatever and I didn't necessarily even want that myself I moved in with two guys who actually did I want to live with them or did I just want them to want to live with me but you've just been so conditioned to think that way yeah but isn't it the most empowering thing when you click that actually I can up level on my own and continue to up level constantly and then create the life for myself that I want without relying on anyone else to do so yeah and absolutely and also you have so much time I did a lot of digging around in fertility studies everyone's told and i think this is very common that 35 you need to nail it before 35 because then there's some sort of cliff drop yeah all your eggs like cliff is a word commonly used

exactly and that's just not true so when you look at recent studies not these i think it was 1800s french peasants that's where they got the 35 thing and basically in the 1800s french peasants who were 35 were nearly dead because people died at about 40 because of malnutrition and things like that so and they already had about eight kids so they're on the cliff anyway yeah so it's just not applicable to now so when you look at modern studies that were done like in the last 10 years or so the difference between your chances of conceiving naturally as a 39 year old compared to a 30 year old are only four to six percent different no way that's what i found in the studies that are in the book and they're all cited and they're all legit but why is this stuff regurgitated so much that you know

post 35 you terror i i think it's the people that are regurgitating these stats to us that they may have seen in the daily mail that are about the french peasants they are tend to be our parents which are baby boomers who do want us to have kids early because that's what they did the thing is people want you to make the same decisions that they did because that makes them feel safe and validates their decisions because they don't like being confronted with a different reality because then they start questioning maybe I shouldn't have had kids in my 20s maybe I should have waited they want to start looking in that locker that's a box full of sailors in every port and traveling they could have would have shoulders yeah exactly so you know it makes people uncomfortable so they want you to do what they did that's quite simply what it is so but I did I had a bit of a relapse almost with my love addiction oh yeah um a couple of years ago because my ovaries woke up

at 38 before that I was like no I don't want kids and then they suddenly woke up yeah and were like hey have a baby and I was like what you tell me that now? What brought that on? I don't know. I think it was probably biological, them just going, hey, remember us? We're here. But also I think it was to do with financial security. Like I'm just finally very financially secure.

That is actually a huge thing because I think men, I think, think about it more when they're like deciding or not whether to propose to someone that in their minds they need to be financially at a certain place. But I think for women wanting to have children, we don't realize it, but has so much to do with whether we feel safe, secure financially and like we've created a nest and like a future for ourselves to actually be able to invite and be able to protect another human into it oh god yeah and you know if i'd got pregnant in my early 30s when i was supposed to i probably would have gone to jail for leaving the baby in a car outside a nightclub while i was there with my leather and my eyeliner and my vodka so i'm really glad i didn't do that now yeah so you suddenly your ovaries started knocking and yeah like are you going to use us yeah come on do it um and I suddenly started

making not very good relationship decisions again and I think it was totally driven by that by that sensation of the window closing and me needing to do that. And so what I've done, I've just turned 40. So I've literally purposely silenced all of that. The ovaries. Yeah. And I've been like, just stop, stop making me make bad dating decisions because I've come past all that. And it feels so good.

Why were they bad dating decisions because I think they were driven towards me having a baby rather than me being in a happy relationship and then yeah a means to an end yeah and I feel like now I'll make level-headed decisions again so that's good how do you sort of once you've done all the work that you've done start making those better decisions like how to acknowledge the red flags or or not go for something because of the wrong uh motivation well i would be very clear on whether you're actually ready to date because i've taken lots and lots of time off dating over the past seven years I have I've been single for three years of the past seven years um just on purpose because I've been like I need a break I

just want to do it sporadically yeah so I've taken like a year off and six months off and three months off and right now I'm gonna try and be single until next year because I've got a book to write and I'm not very good at writing when I'm in a relationship because as we talked about it takes up a lot of energy so ask yourself if you really are ready today or if you're being sort of tyrannized by that feeling that time is running out and look at your life as a whole like I honestly thought that 40 was kind of like oh well then just life's over and now I'm 40 and I'm happier than I've ever been. And I'm doing things like learning to paddleboard and writing a screenplay. And, you know, and I just couldn't be happier.

So you've got so much time. When you look at the span of your life, you're not even halfway through if you're 30. You're way off halfway through. So you just need to totally reprogram that mentality to begin with really yeah and do not listen to older people who are trying to make you make the same decisions that they did in order to validate their choices because you do not want to do something like get married and have a baby with the wrong person if you really don't want to because that is a hell of a responsibility and a thing to get out of I've got a lot of friends at

the moment who are single and ones life I can tell they're sort of feeling like the clock is ticking and I sort of energetically feel like the more you look the harder it is to find yeah that's so true and whenever you're on dating apps and I have become addicted to dating apps in the past for sure yeah like this I turn the notifications off and then I look at it 15 times a day yeah there's no point it's actually more time consuming to just open it and check it every time um yeah and so like I just can't be bothered with it anymore because it's it just feels like such a lot of admin and now I feel like I don't think I'm going to do that again I think I'm just going to let things unfold and see who I meet naturally

and what happens yeah I'm a big believer as well that that intercepts with fate yes because if you didn't meet naturally then maybe you weren't meant to meet and it's something about it the energy of it just feels like not quite right yeah I don't know because so many listening people will be like I met my boyfriend on like tinder whatever and that's amazing but it just doesn't feel like that's for me no and I don't actually know that many people who've had successful well not that short-term relationships aren't successful but they haven't gone long term with appy app people and the sponsor of this podcast is happy ever after that's so good

we just said neither of us believe in dating apps but now we've got the the catch line of the century we'll change our mind we'll erase that bit from the podcast and then we'll pitch it. It's going to make us millionaires. We can buy all the houses for the sailors. I love that. And one more thing I wanted to talk to you about. It's taking it a bit down suddenly. But I wanted to talk to you a little bit about infidelity on the other side um about

your experiences with it because you wrote about it and it really affected me it really touched me about a boyfriend cheating and you said how the the worst part was knowing that your pajamas were under the pillow yeah and it literally broke my heart, I honestly nearly cried when I read the part. Because it's, I have, like, not a dissimilar thing, but it's something about those sentimental things, you know? Yeah. Or the lack of thought. Yeah.

Of something that connects you. To the environment that they're cheating in. Yeah. I think, yeah, there was something so sad about my sweet little pyjama set sitting there under the pillow waiting for me while my boyfriend of the year was sleeping with some girl that he'd met in a nightclub a few weeks before. And it just broke my heart. And it was so sudden as well, that cheat. I didn't see it coming. Although I should have done because but again I ignored the

red flags because I was like he really likes me so therefore I'll just go along with this and when we started would you say that your body was telling you though on some level yeah I think it probably was and I didn't and my intuition was as well and you can tell when you're ignoring red flags when you don't tell your friends about something they've told you so he told me that he cheated on everyone every long-term relationship he'd had and he sort of justified it that is that is a red flag it's a huge red flag it's like it's like a red cruise liner it's not even a flag no no i'm not gonna tell anyone about that because I know they'll be like get the hell out

of there what are you doing but then again of course we always go into that like well that perhaps this time he'll be different I'm changing who knows because sometimes that is possible yeah but I think a really lovely way that you spoke about it though was how you know there was that five percent of the demise of the relationship and that sadness but how 95 of it was still good and I thought that was really lovely because I think we're very quick to villainize the person if they do something wrong and then tarnish the entire relationship and everything it may have taught us and everything beautiful that was in it just because of a bitter ending yeah and that is an incredibly heavy burden to carry

around through life because you just sort of ruminate on it yeah and you you only focus on the sour ending when there was so much else about it that was sweet and I've really tried to reframe how I think about um relationships that end because I truly don't believe that means they're a failure because every relationship has taught you something and you've had a teacher wonderful experiences in it even if it doesn't last forever and end in you know marriage you can have such a lovely thing with somebody and we don't think of friendships that way we're not like oh because I don't want to live with that friend and swap eternity rings with them. That's a failure of a friendship.

We just don't think of that. We see them as, you know, some come and go and some intensify and stay forever. And some don't. We use it as a bit of a drug, I think, like marinating on the bad stuff. Yeah, it's almost like the bitterness propels us away from the relationship. And I think in some ways that is useful. Like whenever I've found myself in a real maudlin state where I just miss somebody constantly,

sometimes I'll write a list of things I don't miss about them. And that does help propel me away from them. But then I consciously pull myself back and say, okay, I'm not going to demonize them and villainize them and paint them as this terrible person because they weren't because there was a lot of reasons why I went out with them in the first place they were a great person as well as a cheater but yeah that's how I see my past relationships now mix of good and bad I have danced between like being the perpetrator

and the victim in the aftermath of a relationship and and that goes on for months and it's kind of like there's no there's no peace there yeah there's there's really not when we are snatched away from something or something is snatched away from us and we're in pain we do often feel that the remedy of the situation is the poison and we want to communicate with that person and and we think we'll maybe we'll sort of like ease each other through this process because that's been your person you go to for everything and you give it the analogy of like it's like drinking on a hangover like yeah it's just gonna carry on it's not working it just prolongs it it just prolongs it so do you think that is just like an absolute

no-no yeah I would say in the first year at least of a major breakup you I wouldn't have any contacts with an ex whatsoever we're always friends with an ex yeah I do and I'm friends with some exes but we were either not even a real thing in the first place you know we didn't even really get off the starting blocks or it was a long time ago like we broke up six years ago and I different people yeah we're different people but in general I will I'll say to them look it's not it's nothing against you but I'm gonna block you on social media because I don't think it's healthy for us to be seeing each other's stuff because if you think about it it's really unhealthy for you to be able to see who your ex goes out with next.

Yes. That is so unhealthy. And to see what they're doing and what they're up to. And obviously on social media, people do not project what's really going on. He's not going to put something up there about him crying all day because he misses you. He's going to put something up of being at a party. Projecting the opposite. Hotties.

It's just, it's all showreel. It's not behind the scenes. So don't bother looking at it. Yeah. It is a form of self-harm as well oh god it really is it's like picking at a wound and not really letting it heal and if they're there no matter how much you tell yourself that you won't look you look you just do you have weak moments so discipline has clearly been a huge theme for you oh I'm so not disciplined it sounds like you've had to become very disciplined that's that's a funny one because I don't think of myself as disciplined the way I think of it is more that I know now what's good for me and what's good for me is often the opposite to what I think I want yeah but is that

not discipline no because I see it as self-care so discipline to me is like iron will and you know it's a bit Maggie Thatcher I don't know it's very um stern see I think of discipline as like a form of self-care okay well it's just associations with the word yeah and sort of yeah for me to take responsibility over things like that requires an element of discipline i like that so what would be your kind of tips to round up with like anyone that's navigating the seas of change during their late 20s early 30s and especially around 30s and especially around relationships and sobriety well i would say first of all are you wanting to get married without knowing somebody that you want to marry because that is truly putting the carriage before the horse and dare to build this alternative

single future where you know what will happen if you don't meet somebody and or you just have love affairs and what kind of beautiful happy life could you build and have that in your head because that is an escape chute from any toxic relationship that you may find yourself in and in terms of dating as a sober I would say it's so daunting to begin with and you might have found this but you'll find that once you get over the initial kind of holding hands and the kissing thing everything just happens naturally like actually so much better it's so much better and it's almost like your body remembers what to do and it just happens and then it's way better and you know you can remember all of it which which is a plus.

And now I can't even imagine it any other way. Because I started thinking when I said, oh, I don't drink, then it all felt like it fell in my lap of I'm making him feel uncomfortable or I should drink just for the situation because, like, it's the right thing to do and now when I say that I don't I actually love them thinking about them being like I don't know what to do being like am I supposed to drink is what is she gonna be uncomfortable like because I'm so secure in it now yeah that's just like it's who I am and also I think I've I really

really expected that loads of guys were going to ghost me I I tend to tell people before I meet them because I just don't want to have that awkward like moment where they're like oh really in fact I think it's been a bone like a positive thing for me have you found on a lot a lot of situations that actually they're a bit like well maybe there's something in this like as in to to not drinking so much or to change their behavior a bit and i think it um helps people be vulnerable because if you're vulnerable then people are vulnerable back definitely you have to lead by example yeah and then you create a much more real connection and you know whether you like

each other genuinely rather than it have being sponsored by prosecco i think loads of my relationships have been sponsored by champagne probably yeah oh god mine was more like Sauvignon Blanc. I couldn't afford Prosecco or champagne, really. I love it. Well, on that note, this has been amazing. And thank you so much. I think you're just an absolute star. Oh, thank you.

I've really enjoyed this. Great. I've enjoyed it as well. So thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. Bye. You know, relationships are incredibly complex. and i feel like they get more complicated because we all come in with more armor and baggage each time around and you know it's

our relationship to ourselves just as much as to others it involves constant inquiry self-inquiry and you know if the same things keep coming up I urge you to be inquisitive rather than judgmental with yourself and with others and to reflect on what I said at the top of this episode no one is immune to heartbreak and instead I'd like to offer slightly different advice that when it comes to matters of the heart, you know, as Brene Brown says, there is courage and there is comfort and you can't choose both. There is a risk in loving and being in relationship, but we can't reap the rewards unless we take that risk. And the more willing you are to open your heart the greater the possibility of pain and heartbreak there is no bypassing that it's the unfortunate paradoxical truth that all things

run even but you know at the same time that's what makes things interesting and exciting so I hope you enjoyed this episode and that perhaps it gave you you know the freedom to look at things a little differently it's not one way we're not all going on the same path at the same rate like I said this way of thinking that you have to have it all done by 30 is just so not true and Catherine's a great example of someone that's just embracing self-partnership and really owning it and is super happy and I think that's a really inspiring thing and we need to see more of that and not judge women for not being you know like I said chosen so if you'd like to follow me on Instagram you can find me at kaggy's world and you can find Catherine at the unexpected joy of and if you would like a reading

with our astrological guide for the season you can find Nora at stars incline if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more you can listen to the full uncut version on my Saturn returns with Kagi patreon page patreon is a subscription service for our dedicated Saturn Returns community so check it out in the show notes if you want to hear more from me and Catherine. I also highly suggest reading her books they are a fantastic read and really helped me on my journey to sobriety and also in being single. This podcast is going through word of mouth so please continue to share it with your friends or anyone that you think might find it useful. It would also mean a lot if you were enjoying it to leave us a review on Apple because this helps us get discovered by more like-minded people. Saturn Returns is a Feast

Collective production. The producer is Debra Dudgeon and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Until next time, thank you very much for listening. And remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.