Saturn Returns with Caggie - 3.13 Saturnz Return with Drum and Bass Icon Goldie

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Goldie is an artist, musician, actor and cultural icon who pioneered the drum and bass scene in the nineties. After his first album Timeless sent him supernova, Goldie was thrown into a world of fame and fortune. In this episode, Goldie takes Caggie through his personal journey including his time in and out of the care system as a child, his relationship to his mother and his theories on past lives and our place in the universe. They also discuss his creative process including the albums The Journeyman and Saturnz Return, which begins with an hour-long track called Mother, and his autobiography All Things Remembered. This episode touches on themes which some listeners might find triggering, including drugs and alcohol, and suicide. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Let's talk a little from a scientific point of view. We came from nothing. So if we became this, why can't we go beyond it? When I've left this vessel, that electricity will go back into the one. It is only shifting energy. The trick is, if I can make it consciously shifting energy. Today, we're going to take a deep dive into the mind of a very special and charismatic man, Goldie. Goldie started his career as a graffiti artist and soon pioneered the drum and bass scene in the late 90s

after the release of his album Timeless sent him and drum and bass supernova. He became a household name and has worked with some of the most prominent musicians of our age, including David Bowie and Noel Gallagher. He's also had acting roles in James Bond and Guy Ritchie's Snatch. His follow-up and perhaps lesser-known album, released in 1998, was titled Saturn's Return. So for this episode, two worlds collide for an intense wild ride exploring all things Saturn. I was a little nervous to speak to Goldie because, well, one, he's an icon. Two, he's a very, very big character with a lot of energy. And three, I guess, because, you know, like he says at the beginning, we couldn't be more from more different worlds.

But there was so much interesting stuff in what he said. He discusses a lot of very personal things, his childhood growing up in and out of the care system, his relationship with his mother, which was such a key theme in this whole exploration of the soul and this journey that he kind of takes us on and the Saturn's return project. he's an incredibly spiritual person he talks about shamanism past lives time travel the universe god we even discuss the end of the world so i wouldn't say this is a light listen but it's definitely a fascinating one one thing to listen out for in this interview is the recurring theme of the little boy at the table a metaphor if, if you will, that I think describes the ever present child within. As well as Goldie's connection to Saturn's return, we talk about some of his other work, including Inner City Life, Timeless, The Journeyman, and Sin Ne Tempore. And we discuss his autobiography, All Things Remembered. We do touch on some things that some people might find hard to listen to,

including alcohol and drugs and suicide. So please take care when listening. He's currently living in Thailand. And as you'll hear, we had a little bit of an issue getting the connection going. But before we get into this amazing conversation, let's check in with our astrological guide, Nora. Amazing conversation. Let's check in with our astrological guide, Nora. Saturn astrologically rules Capricorn and partly Aquarius. Both signs occur during the winter months of December throughout February, arguably the most confronting times of the year, at least mentally for a lot of people. confronting times of the year, at least mentally for a lot of people. The upside of this though is how we can turn the sadness and more depressive sides of these winter themes of our lives

into something that can actually benefit us in the long term. Think about the months of April and May, both ruled by the signs of Aries and Taurus, the promise of new beginnings. Astrologically, everything has a theme, and the lows are generally ruled by Saturn, yes, but they're also raised by Saturn, if we give ourselves the space and time to discover it for ourselves. So what does this have to do with our Saturn return or Saturn transit? On the quest for redemption of our sins cosmically, there is one painting that expresses the realization that we as humans are flawed and need to achieve a sense of higher cosmic realizations personally to achieve something beyond the flaw.

So which painting is this? The Antheses of Lucifer, which Lucifer simply means the bringer of light. Look up the painting of the fallen angel by Alexandre Cabanel, the one of 1868. Look at it, contemplate on it, and then ask yourself, what do you see? And how does it relate to your own hidden self?

Here's a hint, the tear that you see turns into a diamond. That was very much an episode of itself. That is crazy, wasn't it? But we're here. We're good. Shall we take a deep breath? Ah, Sebastian. Are you in Thailand or are you in England?

I'm in Thailand. I've just spent 15 minutes going around the world for you. I don't know. I thought you were joking. I'm about to deal with a language barrier in Thai and you heard it all and you're asking me if I'm in England. I thought you were just confused. But what were you saying about that?

You were saying that it was some sort of past lifetime debt that you were having to repay by navigating that. Creating the most complex music ever vicariously through the hands of engineers over the shoulder of them which i've done for many many years that's just my that's my life i've always had to do that i think there's a thing to do with you know not having any control as a kid that you end up controlling others vicariously which is kind of like very what i call the seance method yeah okay so can we expand on that a little bit because i mean obviously you and i from like you said before you're like we're very different

people i'm the kind of guy that you're standing through the bus so i love when you just step back three paces that's not true but we are different worlds, but I guess that's the whole, I don't know where you thought, right, I think it'd be a smart idea to get Goldie on Kagi's world. Well, I mean, the thing that we do have in common is obviously we both have this fascination with the astrological transit known as your Saturn return. Apparently you do. Apparently what I do, I've always been... Saturn's Return was a thing that, you know, hit me like a car crash. It was this...

One way of describing a Saturn's Return, the West is known as midlife crisis. That's basically it. It's midlife crisis. Yeah. And, you know, the breakdown and, what am I doing? I have a seventh bottle of wine.

Whereas me, it was a lot of drugs and a lot of rock and roll and lamenting for something that wasn't there. And I felt that with Saturn's Return, all the drugs, the cars, the fast cars, the women, everything, I'd become the complete, you know, we are our parents,

whether we like it or not. We think we're not, but we completely are. We rebel against it. Well, also, we're so influenced by our upbringing, and I think your Saturn return is a moment where you were kind of faced with having to confront all those things that perhaps you were running from. I felt that way, but I also felt that it's you know the first experiences love hate anger you know uh sex alcohol all these moments that we experience

they kind of stay with you those very first moments and they're just repeated in different ways and you know it's that old rat brain, you know, we have this rat brain, which is 50,000 years old, and it's surrounded by this newer one, especially today and everything else. For me, Saturn's Return, the traumatic experience I had within my mother's belly, for example, in the water. I swim in the sea, but I stay very close to the shoreline

and I'm petrified. And I've been pulled out a few times and I literally shut down. I go into panic and there's twice I nearly drowned last year. Really? But it's the idea of the force of the sea pulling me and all of a sudden feeling emancipated in this psychological way of feeling emancipated. And I'm not that far from the shoreline and i can't get back and i begin to panic and it becomes a real thing i'm trying to

manage psychologically now i found that i was swimming quite regularly and i was could do a mile i could do up to a mile and a half you know back and forth from the rock to the boats and all the way back and And I feel great. Calm, still water. As long as the water's calm and still, I can just keep going. Headphones in and I keep going. A lot of the stuff that's been coming up this last two months about Saturn's return and the celebrating the album and the celebrating Timeless is that it's probably one

of the only compositions, especially in electronic music, where I am raconteuring an actual story like a piece of opera. It is undoubtedly a classicist impressionism of an opera. It's what opera should be in the modern world because you hear the sound of gas and air. That's the universe. It's infinity if you can get your head around it. And then you hear the sound of gas and air. That's the universe. It's infinity, if you can get your head around it. And then you hear the sound of water. And, of course, it's the conception in the mum's belly.

And then it's being surrounded by the liquid. And then you hear this string, this beautiful string that's caught in a loop because you hear it's got a beginning and an end. And that's the conception. And then you hear the whole string a beginning and an end it's just and that's the conception and then you hear the whole string arrangement open up but it's birth but you also hear you know five six minutes into the piece the strings move around and it pulls itself apart and you hear the pain of being pulled apart being able to do that and that's mother that's mother yeah being able to do that it's a 60 minute composition for anyone that hasn't heard it.

It's not an easy listen. One shamanic healer said to me, when you do disconnect from your mother, it's a thing that stayed with me for years, men especially. When was the last time you felt your belly button? When was the last time you felt your belly button when was the last time you went this thing here connects me to my mother the most sensitive part of one's body that one's like oh god belly but you know but it's something that we avoid that the contact with i in the shower i touch it and i'm blessed i i do my salutations and i do my

meditation and i rub it and i clockwise and anti-clockwise but she said that the lashing the cord that pulls away from this ship deck which is the waypoints of your life will lash around and hurt everyone and take out everything and it will lash and it will move around like a storm and when it finally comes back to you and that connection is gone because she's dead she's gone you'll find some some solace in that and i find it made a lot of sense because at the end of the documentary since nearly two hours this documentary they they ask her so what do you think of that piece of music maggie now you've heard it's an hour long you know she's just she's sitting there just crying she goes i

was in tears and you know it just made me understand what he was feeling i didn't realize what he was feeling and and where i hadn't been there for him and um she said one wish i'd love him to play it at my funeral and i'm like mom it Mum, it's a bit long, it's an hour. It'd be very boring for people to sit through that. But I did, when she did die, quite long story short, got to co-op in Wolverhampton. I've gone into the Chapel of Rest, I've opened the double doors, and there she is, like a piece of marble with skin streaks all over her.

I've leaned down, I've kissed the forehead, it's like kissing marble the darkest of marble i just sat there the headphones out put the headphones on it was the most amazing 60 minutes of my life because i'd realized why that means a piece of music was made for it was made for that moment wow and i think that my whole life has always been in reverse it's always been about deja vus i feel that even with certain compositions within the same album saturn's return there's a thing called the dream within and i actually reversed the track to make it i took a vocal from a suicide track called letter of fate which is a suicide letter i made

into a poem which i made into a poem which i found in a loft and i couldn't go through with it so i hid it in shame this suicide letter i hid it in the loft thinking i don't know why i held on to it but i was going through some books and it fell out and it just fell out the dream this this letter just fell out yeah what's that i've got down the ladders and i've looked at it and it's, I can't bear this anymore. The drugs, it's getting to me. I just want to end this. And I'm like, oh God.

How old were you when you wrote that letter? I'd wrote the letter maybe two years before. And so just, that was at the peak of so much success. Yeah, yeah. I was going to out. I was going to out. I was going to go. Because just to, you know, to explain a bit about that time in your life,

from the exterior and the external world, like you had everything. I had everything. Everything. Everything you could imagine. Even, I was so guided by Saturn's return that even Bjork, you know, she wanted to get engaged.

We've got Fanny Craddock's old house in Watford. We've got to look to the house. It's amazing amazing there's a stream at the bottom of the garden i've gone to miami and i've done this tour we finished the tour my friend went to see it to see get a hand looked at and read a reading yeah and she's gone up he's busy and she's come back sat at the table and the woman's turned up an hour later and said, are you ready for your reading? She went, yeah. And she looks at me and she went, no, you. Are you ready for your reading? And I went, yeah, but she's there.

And she went, no, you. I think you need to see me. Oh, my God. And she said, do you mind? And I just thought, fuck it. I just went with it. And I went and she said to me, she said, there are two paths you're about to come into.

There's a woman with dark hair, but she's light skinned. And it's there right now. And there's this other situation with another woman here. And you've got to decide what path you're going to be going down. And it was insane. But it was so detailed for me that sometimes we can believe in you can we can read into these things i think anyone that's weak and vulnerable you know it's that thing where it's where have you seen a red car oh my god i've seen a red car

you know what i mean it's the same thing where I was, you can be that naive sometimes with stuff. Where were you at in your sort of spiritual path? Were you like open to that kind of thing? Were you already exploring it? I was open. I was open because I'd felt that. Something shifting.

It was just whispering. It was, yeah, something shifting big time because there was a whispering. And the only way I can explain it, I've lived my entire life with 11 adults around a table. It's a bit uneven. There's 11 adults. One's a drug addict.

One's an artist. One's a music maker. One's so angry, he hardly sits at the table. He just smashes the chair every time he sits down and throws plates around. You know, one is a lover. One is a womanizer. He's just got to keep going through women.

But the one that's at the table that makes it even is the boy because he was sitting underneath the table. And he's going, will you please shut up all of you just let me just stop it stop it stop it and this kid was me it's the inner boy the inner child were they not all you they're all me of course they are but he sits at the head of the table they are they are ghosts of your identity they are imprints of your life i have been every one of those characters i'm not going to deny them but would you say that the the inner child of the boy that was the part that you had to really confront and heal during this transition he was the one that i had to listen

to because like i said he was the one that said listen to her i know you can get married i know you can do all this stuff but this isn't your path this isn't your path you've got to go and just go the other way I know you can't see what's down that road but you need to go and you need to go and he's got you got to do it on your own laurels and it was weird because nothing made sense about it nothing made sense of it yeah and I'm why am I following this kid why am I why am I listening to you why why do I trust you? And it was, I've got the money, I've got the cars, I've got the fame. Why am I even?

Yeah. So it was a really weird time. And probably no one around you understood it. Well, they all thought I was mad as a box of frogs for a start. It was just a mad time of my life. But the point of Saturn's return, it was very easy for me to, on the fame and fortune, to make Timeless too. Because Timeless was the success, the album, this album, which has changed the genre, genre defining.

And it was a two album firm deal. But Asim, did you feel when you were doing the next, the Saturn Returns album, did you think, I've done that, I've created that is this is now me navigating my own internal world oh I mean I even knew before I even said anything I would knew I always knew I said that I'm gonna get I'm gonna get seriously crucified for this album yeah you've and you've always maintained that oh I I know I always did and I look at people and I'm I'm not a told you so kind of guy I don't throw stones from the glass house. But the fact that it's been celebrated and re-released last year and all this other stuff and people are listening to it like a composition,

you know, all of those tracks on there, it's a dark realm, but it's a truth. I mean, I had to, you know, come up with my own quote, you know, only to find those words that were important to me. But do you think it was slightly ahead of its time then? It was, without a shadow of a doubt. It's always been that. But you see, it's a lonely place to do that,

but it's a dirty job that someone has to do it. Because it's like any past life. If you get given all this power, what are you going to do, abuse it like you did before? I remember being with a shaman and she said your kid your liver oh my god you in the past pharaoh life you would you would slice down the center and they took out your liver and entrails and they just threw them and everyone cheered because you were powerful you weren't a main pharaoh but you were working for a crop master or something.

And you just enslaved these people. You wouldn't let them free. You wouldn't do anything for them. And they turned on you. But there was a time when you could have. And I'm like, what are you telling me? It's madness. And of course, it kind of makes sense because this is the only life that I remember.

I get glimpses of stuff that wasn't the memory of it, but there was the pain, inherent hereditary pain. In the body. In the body. Always here. And it was only until the trip shifted it. It had to be shifted. And then it kind of started making sense because here's the thing,

which is the strange thing, the very strange thing. So, I don't know. This is an old Italian book. It's 27 years old. Oh, my God. And I write in this book. Is that your journal? It's the biggest book I've ever seen.

Oh, my God. Take a look at the handwriting. Take a look at the handwriting. Take a look at the handwriting. Wow. Now, that handwriting. That's amazing. You can see that you're a graffiti artist. It's all in capitals, and it looks very uniform.

It's basically, it's very, very, it's like scripture. Yeah. I'll just give you an idea of what what why it's the way we read it i guess this is the beginning because my heart and travels have shown me it certainly is not an end you are here with me and those i love and cherish cherish that i share this once shadowed love so now is the time to open my eyes on this mountain. And I, all of my experience, it's time to fly and write messages of my mind's eye wishing for something beyond. So there's loads of affirmations that were written. Now, here's the thing.

Where did you write that bit? Ten years ago, maybe. So what was your belief system then? It's still the same as it is now. That there is something else? Well, I know there's something else, but it's not within the realm of what we can put. It's not within the realm of what we can understand.

If you do ayahuasca, you'd understand that. It's a different thing. It is the mother of all mothers, ayahuasca. It's the mother without a shadow of a doubt. But here's the thing. When I listen to Letter of Faith as a really sad human being's suicide attempt, I look at the way that I made this piece of music. And I took the letter, I created a poem,

which I whispered in the background as a BV, like a whispered vocal. No one ever said that living would be easy. I just recited the poem. And then I sang the track. No one ever said that living would be easier than me alone. My letter of fate I write for I than. No one ever said that living would be easier than me. So it's very beautiful.

It's a lullaby. It's a lullaby to carry me. Now, to create the effect on the vocal, to make it sound like... No one... So you just put the reverse on them, so it's the... There's a sound. You have to turn over the two-inch tape, physically. It takes 10 minutes. Flip the tape over, you've got your whole vocal in reverse i went to the bathroom and will old donovan who was paul weller's engineer at the time he said give me 10 minutes g cool right i'm out i come back i walk down this hallway i'm coming back through the hallway

something happened was weird and all of a sudden i hear this sound i'm like what the hell is that and i'm running the studios what's that what that? What's that? It's your voice. And that's fucking freaky. Take it for a bit. Go back to the beginning. And as I'm listening to this sound, it sounds like

a 14th century monk. Whoa. It sounds like a 14th century monk meditating. So for me, that track is definitely a past life seeping through into this one for sure without a shadow of a doubt i'm confident with that it's crazy

i don't recognize the monk because he was a kid that going back to the point he wasn't he was working for the monk he was like a little urchin and his his job was to just copy. The monk gave him a piece of paper and he'd go off and he'd just copy. Like an editor. I've got to write it. And that's why my writing is the way it is. I know I'm a graffiti writer. I don't know. I gravitate towards graffiti.

But that handwriting has always been that way. And it's spooky because I write. It's just the way that I write. So I feel like I've done it before in another time. Do you feel like you're channeling something? Yeah, most definitely. Without getting into too much detail, but yes, most definitely. But I think it's served its purpose to the point of its reality now

that Saturn's return, let's zoom out for a second. You could say, well, maybe it was the drugs he was doing at the time. Maybe it was, you know say, well, maybe it was the drugs he was doing at the time. Maybe it was the crazy, throwing himself into this mad place of trying to be so different than what he did for the first album. But it was a truthful, one of the quotes, like I said, wanting a quote all of these years. And I finally found one. The boy came to me one day and tugged at me.

I was up on the mountain about three months ago. I've got into this hiking, which has been phenomenal. And I'm in the mountain looking at life and death right in front of me. And I'll just pull off the headphones and just say to myself, like, this is it. This is the first day of the rest of my life. And I'm seeing life and death in front of me. And how beautiful it is to see life unfolding right in front of me and how beautiful it is to see life unfolding right in front of me

and wanting to leave a mark on it with tangible italian books canvases real stuff if i was to get hit by a bus tomorrow what do you have left what do you have where someone can say, wow, wow, you really put a lot of work in and that's honourable. And so I'll bring you to the quote. I was in the forest. I was out of breath. A truthful idea lasts in the honesty of time. lasts in the honesty of time whatever your truth is a truthful idea lasts in the honesty of time that's mine i have ownership over that which makes me feel like the boy can sit at the head of that table without a shadow of a doubt was it quite a long journey to get to that point of having that realization what do you think of 55 when people surround me and go oh my god god that paintings that's really good you fucking

better be after 35 years of painting if i haven't got it right by now something is seriously wrong yeah but i guess what i'm getting at is at the time of releasing that album and knowing that it wasn't for anyone else, that it was some sort of cathartic exploration of the soul. Were you torn between those people at the table and also the exterior version of yourself that was like so in existence at that point? Or did you know that this is what you needed to do without a shadow of a doubt? I like how you, I like your thinking here. It was like, the kid was like, right, that, well, what else are you going to give us then? Well, no, I'll let you, oh, if you want to be a singer, you can sing on this record, but you've got to sing these words. There's a negotiation going on almost. Do you know what I mean? It's like, look, you've got to lay off the gear.

Yeah, but, but, but, you know, but it opens up this Pandora's box. Yeah, but every time you open the Pandora's box, you say you're not going to do anything and then you go mad for five days. Do you know what I mean? So it becomes this, it becomes this, it's my own belief. It's a negotiation. It is a negotiation.

Because also it's about, I mean, I love that analogy of the people at the table and the boy underneath and that it's interesting that that is the one that seemed to be the sort of conductor of of your fate and I think there's so many interesting layers as to why and I think a lot of what you've explained about your childhood would would you know connect with that but I think as you go through this period of life you do have to acknowledge where your weaknesses are. And then that, you can alchemise that

and make them into a strength. Yeah. And it seems that, you know, the lifestyle you were living is as incredible as it was probably from the outside. It was like, I mean, I don't know, you tell me, was it out of control? Oh, it was crazy at times.

I mean, it was mad. It was, you know, I think- There was a time in music as well when that was acceptable too, you know? it was mad. It was, you know, I think... There was a time in music as well when that was acceptable too, you know? It was encouraged. Yeah, I mean, I've got something here that might sort that out for you. I mean, God.

Chameleon, you know, these were in the first book. But, you know, Chameleon, still the artist burns knowing no end beyond the frame of its own terrain whether maddening or the insane i guess the maker's spirit lies my blame there's so many affirmations that came out in that period through that same hand through the same hand and i couldn't control it it just kept spewing out and spewing out So the chameleon

is that about sort of being a shapeshifter? Yes, I felt that I was shapeshifting to For anyone but you Yeah, for anyone but me I mean, this killed me I woke up and found this on my bedside, you know

and it was and that is all to ensure we can physically and positively combust life source and decipher from all form a forward positive shifting energy. And what we sometimes call the soul, the conscious soul, that is, the gearbox of the universe, then maybe one day i will be able to drive it and shift in infinite realms and one day hopefully i will master mine you know so that's powerful well i'll give you the number of the drug dealer he's still available now i mean so what that was under the influence of drugs no it was it was under the influence of drugs?

No, it was under the influence of being completely not conscious anymore. I'd wake up and find it. But I was drinking. Would you say then that the drugs and the drinking was, because all of that actually makes a lot of sense to me, what you just read. You're fine. It does.

It does. It makes sense. But here's the thing. You open Pandora's box you know when people used to go well yeah drinking and rock drugs and rock and roll

the word why is why is alcohol called spirit because the last exactly this is what I say all the time

it's the spirit it opens you up to other entities entities it opens you up and we see that with people how they can turn, how they can be, and how they can manage that.

Do you drink anymore? I drink Saki, my weapon of choice. I stopped drinking. Well, good. I mean, listen, I went to Eric Clapton's place and it was three days in. I was like, this is not for me. I don't want to cross the road when I see a pub.

That old model does not work. I met people that were sprinkling crack on their fucking cork flakes in the morning going, what, it's your third time here? Yeah, I've been here three times. Wow, this is really not for me. Because also, well, it sounds like you've always had a lot of autonomy and authority over your life

in one way or another. And actually when you have to, when you get to that point where you are not the authority of your life and there's this monster that you have to deal with every single day it's like it's not a good place to be it's not a good place to be not a place you want to be it's not a good place and the fact of having no control you know how could i be strong and resilient and have and not top myself or not do all these really weak things and to have survived all of this the abuse and everything else i'm like

but you can't... Handle this. You can't handle this one thing. Just don't fucking drink. What is your problem? Was it the boy that was saying that? Yeah, I mean, of course. He was screaming all the time, like,

what are you doing? You're going to get on a helicopter in the morning and you're not even going to be able to get out of your bed. I'm sitting there in a bed. I just can't go anywhere. All of those people at the table are all here. Talk to me about that. Well, if you've got another five hours, maybe.

All of these collective writings, I am not a writer. I am not. Yeah, you are. Well. I think that's what you are more than anything, in a way. You know, I write in caps, exclamation marks, commas. It's just a mechanic. It's not Queen's English for a start.

But I guess when you've been emancipated and you've, as a kid, in the care system, you're thrown in there, you're powerless. So the reason why I make music the way I make it through an engineer is I always had to use someone so getting that power at the beginning yeah to get the power it was a control thing the control thing because I've been controlled by others and I wish I had no control over and when I look at all things remembered as a book it's a beautiful book because the way the book was written was there is a boat next door.

And in that Thai boat, there's cushions, we made it into a sofa. And I just get the phone. I press record. I put it next to me and I lie in the boat. And you talk. Oh, yeah. And what I did, I'll send the recordings to, what's his name who wrote the book? Who wrote All Things Remembered?

He said to me, I'll tell you what he said, this is quite strange. Well, all of this is quite strange to be honest. But in the most wonderful way. Oh, shit, sorry. Oh, there you go. I didn't even hear that.

This is crazy. This is by accident. So? Is this still recording? and this is crazy this is by accident it comes back to that same thing about so strange and it could this is a recording this is a recording so let's just keep

the level of rain to a certain degree right you know it's all in this dialogue hey Superman now he's a fucking real superhero

because he can fucking fly and he comes from another fucking planet so I've got all these mad you get to the point and you think i haven't read this oh hang on a second i did so that's that's how the book was written and and and how it came about ben thompson there you go so ben bolt you both he wrote both for john mcenroe's books and I like the way that they they read and it's just the way that it doesn't read chronologically it doesn't read linearly that doesn't surprise me nothing about you is linear

at all I think you're the most lateral mind I've ever met no it's great so So, yeah, there's stories. So one of them would be, a good example would be, there we go. In the midst of all the chaos, I had this unbelievable art class. The teacher was very welcoming. Hello, everyone, meet Clifford. He's joining us to make him feel at home. He then gave me a piece of plasticine and said, let's make something. What I ended up making, what I ended up making, and there's a TED talk online in TEDx, which explains this somewhere in detail. I made a fucking pram. I went into detail what was in the pram. One minute I was moulding

the soft plasticine in my hands. The next, I knew the teacher was taking me in front of the class saying, oh, this is amazing, Clifford, it looks so good. Let's show everyone what you've done. I remember him looking at me and kind of extending my arm with this beautiful little pram in my hand. And you wouldn't need to be Sigmund Freud to see that this was the work of a kid who wanted to be mothered. But then I held out this wonderful ornate pram to show everyone and i felt this spurt of anger and i squeezed it in my hand so i could destroy it and

i threw it down on the ground and ran out of the class people who have heard this in the past have responded to it as if it's a very sad story which of course in its own way it may be but the pram needed to be destroyed because i need to find the man beyond the baby who was in there and it just goes on to talk about you know the way that I got to art through the trauma and also the sort of you mentioned alchemy and how it's clear that you've managed to alchemize a lot of your pain and transmute that into all your work whether that be art music writing i think that's a really powerful thing yeah i mean so the more paintings we do the more compositions i make the more writing i do that's the body of work and i think part of my philosophy is that have i done my greatest work yet no sine tempore is the amalgamation of every

composition every piece of work to have a television series which deals with time and has to move through it back and forth in time the idea for me my my own belief is that maybe all of my past lives are just text messages to this one of where I'm going so the idea is that I've put together all of those past lives that I failed at to get this one which I can actually remember so it's my job to navigate now if I can create if you came from nothing which we did let's look at it from a scientific point of view we came from nothing and we became this so if we became this why can't we go beyond it one when i've left this vessel that electricity will go back into the one it is only shifting energy the trick is if i can

make it consciously shifting energy because i don't want to be part of the fucking one. I like this very much. I like me. You know what I mean? And I think that's what Ayahuasca did. Ayahuasca taught me that, yeah, oh, God, you see the universe in binary. And there is no judgment there, no right or wrong. My whole theory is that the universe just became conscious,

and she's female. God's a chick, get over it. And the sooner you realize that, it's only man's ignorance that have covered up the fact that God is a chick because they insert them. I don't know. Don't start me off with my Pandora's box. But it goes back to those shamanic healers.

And they said to me, you came to see me and you're carrying a bowl of fire with a spider inside it. And I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? Because, well, you fire, you had so much fire in your life. Your ancestors want to give you this fire and this spider. Okay. But haven't I got enough fire? They went, well, it will create more, but it will create the right type of fire that you need,

the right temperature you need to be at. And then they said, just be mindful of one thing. If you're going to burn, be careful you don't burn out. And the second thing is be mindful of any creature that gets up on its hind legs, because he's not to be trusted. What does that mean? You tell us.

It's humans. Because we've got up on our hind legs. And we are the worst creature of all. We're the fucking worst. We are the worst to ourselves. We are the worst to nature. We are the worst. That is my own feeling of truth,

that I feel that I've just got to honour this vessel a little bit. I've got to be better than this. And when you honour your own vessel, you honour the collective and, you know, Mother Earth. Mother Earth. She's giving birth. And do you know what? She's fine.

Because, I'm not going to say it, but 80 to 100, I reckon it's going to get wiped again and it will come back again. You know what's really strange? I had a dream two nights ago that someone told me and they showed me a graph that said in 50 years, that's it. Yeah, it's gone. And it wasn't a, oh, if we don't do this now, it was like, this is happening. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gone.

That's my own belief system. And I'd like people to prove me wrong later on because it's not my doing. All I know is that 50 to 80, we're done. That's gone. The positive side of this is that what are we going to do about have comfortable we go out? Now, here's the thing my great great grandfather was in a field picking cotton or picking potatoes one of the two the white and the black and his father picked potatoes too and his father picked potatoes too what's a great time to experience the end of it all isn't it because where would you the for the very fact that you are loaded from that crucible of old through many lives and ending up in this one we're making the final figurine that's what i feel so i think the art of closure

is where my failings have been because they're just open-ended. Like no false stops in this conversation. It doesn't end. It just goes over the tangent. You've just got to stop him because there's no closure. That's called discipline, which I don't have. You don't naturally have discipline. No, I don't know.

But what I do have is an inner, it's a type of discipline, but it's more like a chi you know it's like a level discipline is a the most saturnian quality is it really well saturn as a planet is like one of its defining principles yes so the idea of not having it but my wife said to me but you do because you go up there like every week you're up the mountain and you don't even realize. And you're in the ice bath and you work. And I'm like, what? Oh, is that what discipline is?

Oh, yeah. And I felt I never had it. But I think gaining some more, gaining more of it to the point of having my own control i guess but that's great to know also the you know the tools that you have now and the things that you do that like you say get your temperature to the right place and recalibrate you because it sounds like at one point you could have sort of taken off to another to another galaxy you did yeah oh you know if you flicked a peanut at the car i'd be out of the car hunting you down dragging people in the street i mean the that that the violence was terrible to a lot of degrees i was a bit of a lunatic and then

i just felt no, because it was, it was also the fact of inflicting pain on others, which is horrible. But you know, the other question you wanted to ask me, the way that you brought us together was this idea of Saturn. Saturn's houses now for me are in a really good place. The last Mercury was pretty heavy.

You know, things went down electrically, which it was bound to happen. And the phone disappeared. I had five iPhones last year. And it was under this piece of paper in plain sight that the cleaners couldn't find. I couldn't find. I'm like, wow.

And it was just steered me away from it. So I kind of trust. I trust the stars a lot. And my daughter, Coco, is incredible. In her room, she pulls this ritual, she pulls back the curtain and she looks at the boats on the ocean and we look at the stars

and she sees them moving and we talk about them and we talk about which one we're going to and how beautiful it is. And it's just creating her memories that are outside of trauma. You know, my other daughter's 23. And I, you know, went through a lot with Chance. She witnessed a lot of trauma, a lot of me warring with her mom.

You know, I even had a Ferrari taken into Northwood Girls and some guys cut me up and I'm dragging them out of the car and she's sitting there in a school uniform going, Dad, Dad, and I'm like having a fisty cuffs with the guy and I get back in the car and drive her to school. Like, that's not good for a kid. So I went through all this stuff with her and we have a brilliant relationship now brilliant

you know I had to break this chain that my father and his father had done it's taken a long time a lot of time to do that but looking at those stars with her and cycling on the beat god those memories are so beautiful for her now. And for you. Yeah, for me. They're brilliant. Of the 12 people, 11 people, sorry, at the table. The 11 adults that think they're adults. Yeah. And the boy underneath.

Would you say that you are still being conducted by the boy underneath or it's more that there's a man observing the boy? No, the boy's growing up. He's in a beautiful adolescence. He's still young, but he's just growing. It's like when I did this unbelievable ayahuasca, I looked at my feet while I was vomiting like violently and i saw my feet turning to my child's feet the same feet and same hands as the boy under the table they're looking

at my younger hands they were mine all right and when i saw them i realized that that boy is becoming the adult within the boy's frame, if that makes any sense. He's still small. He's very small. He's a really little boy. But he climbs on the table and he just conducts everyone else. That's it. He's got a cushion even.

He sits on this, like, mad cushion and he's at the right height now. They've got to look at him. Same eye level. And he sometimes plays under the table he still likes playing he's great he's brilliant he's brilliant he's so brilliant and i have the best fun i was in the lake the other day and i'm just laughing so loud because i can hear him laughing through me it's brilliant that's amazing that's it well gaudy thank you so much thank you for joining me this has been it's been a bit of a map on this one hasn't it i've been

able to be really thank you for bringing us on your journey you're very open and yeah there was a lot of a lot of takeaways from it it's exhausting isn't it jesus christ i'm gonna try living with me i know i can imagine i can only imagine and i've got to live with fucking 11 of them jesus what an incredible conversation i obviously really liked it when he said god's a chick get over it but um there were so many quote-worthy moments. I mean, from crack on people's cornflakes to that world of fame and fortune and hedonism. It's just getting that sort of honest insight of what it was really like at that time was incredible. I think if we're able to leave behind any preconceived ideas of what an artist should sound like, listening to Goldie leaves you feeling both confused yet provoked emotionally in a way that only he can manage in his own eccentric offshoot sort of way.

Goldie himself has transcended past judgment and that is exactly what allows him to express himself this freely. There is a big emphasis in his work and in this conversation on his own mother. The first track of that album titled Mother lasts about an hour and it's interesting to note that the second track is called Truth which is one of Goldie's aims in this lifetime astrologically, the quest for truth on earth. The Saturn's return album has been re-released and is now considered an ahead-of-its-time neoclassical masterpiece. You can find more about Goldie on his website goldie.co.uk

or on Twitter and Instagram at MrGoldie. You can follow our astrological guide Nora on Instagram at Stars Incline and you can follow me at Kagi's World. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to leave us a review on Apple that is always very appreciated because it helps us get in the hands and ears of more like-minded people. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Hannah Varrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Thank you so much for listening and remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.