Saturn Returns with Caggie - 4.1 Vulnerability and Self Trust with Estée Lalonde

Episode Date: September 20, 2021

During our Saturn Return we often feel a strong desire to be truly seen as our most authentic selves - to put down the facade and armour of pretending. But this isn’t without its challenges, as vulnerability can feel scary. How can we allow someone to see us, when we don’t feel worthy of being seen?  In the first episode of season 4, Caggie is joined by Estée Lalonde, a Creative Director living in London, as they explore how we can create self trust, and build the foundations that make vulnerability possible. Estée is originally from Canada, but moved to the UK for love at 19, and began establishing herself as a firm favourite in the YouTube space for her love for all things beauty. Her most recent project, Mirror Water, is an online lifestyle community focused on self-reflection.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. It was almost as if someone else was pulling the strings and I was the puppet. Like, I didn't know what was happening. It was like autopilot, but scarier. I am so excited that we are back for our fourth season of Saturn Returns. This season, we will be covering themes that I hope will help you develop a sense of autonomy and self-trust. Through my conversations with guests, we will learn how to hold space for ourselves and in turn each other, and ultimately becoming our own authority, as well as other esoteric

cosmic conversations that will help you navigate whatever transition you might be going through. Today, I am joined by Estée Lalonde as we discuss vulnerability, mainly in love but also in understanding the landscapes of our minds and the complexities of depression. Estée is a creative director living in London. Originally from Canada, she moved to the UK for love at 19 and began establishing herself as a firm favourite in the YouTube space. Known for her love of all things beauty, it's the sense of community that she's built that she is most proud of. She recently launched her own lifestyle community focused on self-reflection called Mirror Water. She's incredibly honest, thoughtful, and relatable. And in this episode, she is very open about her

own mental health, relationships and everything in between and I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. But before we get into this, let's hear from our astrological guide Nora who is joining us again for season four. Saturn return, a time of self-discovery which ultimately paves the road towards accountability and self-governance. A road like this though can't be easy. It's often ridden with hardships, heartbreak, fear, inner blockages or anything really that stops us from completely breaking into a more authentic fulfilling version of ourselves a version of ourselves we so desperately crave to feel not only inwardly

but also outwardly so that those closest to us as well as those that know us from a distance may know who it is we truly are who it is we are in the world. Sometimes the only way to fully know is to escape everything we think we are. And so we finally learn that the only persona, the only soul we will always be stuck with is our own. There is no escaping it, no abandoning it and certainly no forgetting about it. How is this relevant though? Why is this so important during our Saturn return? This transcendence of fear of judgment in favor of total ownership of life decisions that support a more polished identity that initiates us into full adulthood. In astrology, Saturn is our work, our karma.

adulthood. In astrology, Saturn is our work, our karma, what we are meant to fulfill in favor of total liberation towards our sun sign, which is our identity in astrology. And sometimes we don't completely relate to our sun sign or are unable to connect to it completely until we go through a major Saturn transit or even a Pluto transit. But for most of us, it isn't until our Saturn return that we feel comfortable enough to step into our full inner sun, our identity. And in turn, we heal our solar plexus, which is related to our not only willpower, but also self-confidence. It is this step that allows for a comfortable self-confidence, a genuine sense of ease with self, and therefore our inner sun sheds light on our path and purpose day in and day out, one sun ray at a time.

This is why really feeling all the highs and lows during our Saturn return becomes so important, because it is this work, this inner work, that will allow us to emancipate into the primary authority of our lives. We become the sun. Welcome to the Saturn Turns podcast. You know, a lot of people have requested that you come on. Oh, well, I'm such a fan and I'm so thrilled to be a guest. We'll see if I have anything interesting to say. Because when you first walked in and I asked you how old you were I mean more for me for not doing my research probably but I was just looked at you from online and I was like oh she you know she's young she's got it all ahead of her we're actually the same age yeah I have it all behind me and god

knows what's to come hopefully not much more and you also said you were like you seem like you're someone that has your shit together but you seem like you're someone that has your shit really together I am a mess but it's true you don't know what is like going on in someone's day today like we're all just trying to get through this and drink a lot of wine while doing it well actually I one of the things that made my life not together was drinking so I actually drinking is interesting because I've been down that path too like I've never been a big drinker but sometimes it is something that you lean on and you can lean on it a bit much you know and I've definitely gone through times where I've been like I need to not drink for a while

so now I've done that I've come out the other side and now I have like maybe one or two glasses every now and then but I don't go beyond oh that's quite civilized it's very tricky it's a very personal thing so you moved here when you were super young when you were 19 19 you did do your research I did do a little bit oh my gosh yeah. For love. For love. Yeah. I moved here when I was 19. I fell in love with someone and he lived in England and I lived in Canada. I'm from Canada. And we kind of had like an internet romance and we started Skyping and blah, blah, blah. A few weeks after my 19th birthday, I moved to England and I ended up staying. We were together for, I think like eight and a half, nine years like that oh my goodness yeah so we had a good go and then Saturn return happened

that must have been your first love right oh yeah he was my first love for sure this was like a real proper love you know it was all consuming and then when we broke up I was on my own because we had lived together the entire time. From the minute I moved to the UK, I lived with him. So I had never lived on my own before, like at all. And I had to learn how to be a human on my own. And maybe to some people listening, that doesn't seem like that big of a deal. But to me, it was everything.

It was completely earth shattering. And I had to rebuild my entire identity. So how old were you when you guys broke up? I think it was everything. It was completely earth shattering. And I had to rebuild my entire identity. So how old were you when you guys broke up? I think I was 27. So it was a full on Saturn return. Yeah. The first time I heard of Saturn return was when I was in New York. And after we broke up, I was spending a lot of time in New York.

I was going to find myself in New York. And I kind of did, actually. And I went to see an astrologist her name is Nadine Astrology on Instagram and she was like I think this is your Saturn return and I was like what is that and from that moment on my life was never going to be the same so you knew about it as it was happening as it was happening yeah she like, this makes complete sense. Buckle up, baby, because you're in for a wild ride. And I was in for more of a wild ride than I think I ever would have imagined for myself because my life was so easy going up until that point. And shit hit the fan. There's no other way to put it. What other things happened? Just that breakup was huge for me. I discovered partying you know like learning what

my limits were with that you know because you hadn't established those boundaries I didn't drink for our entire relationship ever I had never even been to a club you know I started dating new people and discovering my sexuality like what that was you know I was in a 10-year relationship so your identity was really based off that yeah and I was discovering all of these things and becoming independent and not knowing what it felt like to lean on another person what it really felt like to lean into yourself um my dog died that was a huge shift for me. He was my everything, my little greyhound, my big greyhound. Like, I don't say this lightly. I was a mess. I wasn't eating. I wasn't sleeping. I was doing bad things. I was dating a lot. I was the opposite of grounded. I was really like

not with the program. Sometimes I wonder like how I kept up with like my job. And I was going to say, because that on, on the surface looks like you have your shit together. I'm sure people knew I was going through some stuff, but I didn't know it. I didn't know it. And I think, how do you get in touch with yourself? I don't know. You hit rock bottom, like several times, and then you get really like elated with certain things and it's so many highs and lows like I was just never in the middle and going from one extreme to the next and staying out till 6am and getting on a plane and going to New York for two weeks and coming back to London and I had an apartment in New York and I spent two weeks in New York and two weeks in London

and I did that for like seven months running away from each place yeah completely running I wasn't dealing with anything and like I really thought that was gonna work and it did for a bit it did for a bit I had the time of my life I met like some amazing people in New York and um I've just never lived like that before like having no one to kind of keep me in place and I'm key yeah I had no anchor and then when I lost my dog it was even worse it was like I have no reason to be at home and be anything other than a mess and I really learned how easy it can be for people to lean on like substances, for instance, like as an anchor, because you're grasping at anything to kind of hold on. And I had friends, but all of my family

was in Canada and I didn't know my place because I spent my entire twenties in London, but really because of him. So I was really struggling with my identity as far as where I belonged as well. Like I didn't have my dog anymore. What was tying me to London? So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out where I wanted to live and where I wanted to create a life now, you know? And luckily I decided it was London again, because was like I just love it here this is my favorite place to be but even that kind of identity was happening I think that's quite normal at that age I definitely went through my own feeling of needing that sense of belonging and searching for it outside of myself so traveling to find it to find that feeling of being anchored and then

you know the reality is you come to terms with the fact that that's something that arrives internally yeah but I don't know how you discover that without doing all of those things getting it wrong mistakes yeah I don't know how like that's the only way to do it and my relationship with my mom changed a lot during this Saturn return because I was always close to her. But when I became single and I was like struggling with all of this stuff, that's when our relationship kind of shifted between she's my mom and I'm her daughter and changed to more of like, she's a woman and she's the woman that raised me. And I'm the woman that she raised and we get each other

on a more intimate level almost. So she was kind of discovering me and it was all just a lot of discovery, but it was amazing. I'm glad it's over, but I'm glad it happened as well. But I can like, it's a daunting time and I never thought it would happen to me. What do you mean? As in you thought that that was your sort of life on a trajectory. I knew it was. I didn't on a trajectory. I knew it was. I didn't think it was.

I knew it was. And it was almost as if something in the universe, and I know I sound insane and crazy, but probably if you're listening to this podcast, I don't. It felt like someone else was pulling the strings and I was the puppet. Like, I didn't know what was happening. It was like autopilot, but scarier. I wasn't in control of anything I was the puppet. Like I didn't know what was happening. It was like autopilot, but scarier. I wasn't in control of anything I was doing. Did you have a need to control things before? Oh my God, Kagi. I'm a massive control freak. I'm the person. So that must've been really discerning for you. I didn't know what I was was doing and I think I was a little bit scared at how like loose I was with my life I was being really self-destructive and I liked it

and you'd not been like that before never well that's not true I kind of was as an early teenager a bit but then my late teenage years not at all I was like a huge homebody. I am a huge homebody. But for that time, I was just so, I wanted to feel something, you know, I think I felt really numb for a long time. And like, I do have a tendency to be like a little depressed and I'm really anxious. And then when I was going through all of these changes, I just fed fed that like I would do things to make myself suffer more it was a really dark time actually even though I was having the best time I looked amazing you know I was like just feeling great about myself but inside I was just so broken and just didn't want to look at it like literally didn't want to look at it. Like literally didn't want to look at myself in the mirror. So looking back at the self-destruction now, where do you think that comes from? Um, I still feel it within me. Like even sometimes on like a Friday night, I'm like,

Oh, should I go fuck up my life? By the way, I totally get that. Yeah. And it never really goes. No, you just don't push the button. Yeah. But I, it's nice to know the buttons there, you know, and it's nice to know that I have pushed the button. Like I try to convince myself I'm being stronger by not pressing it. I'm like, it actually takes more strength not to press it. My big thing in life is being weak. never want to seem weak I'm a Leo so like I can't yeah I can't be perceived as weak so to me even in my own heart I'm like you'd be weak if you fucked up your life again don't do that but then sometimes I do and I do it this is kind of like meta but I kind of do it because I want to make myself weak just so I

can be mad at myself again and it's it's really sick like it's actually the self-destruction thing is sick it could be food it could be dating it could be so many things and like how do you stay balanced lord some people are balanced apparently. I don't know. Well, when I, when I was in my twenties, the concept and the idea and the word balance, I was just like, that's such a foreign thing to me. I will never be that. And I was just so extreme one way or the other, like extreme highs or extreme lows completely unanchored and so I really had to learn and it's it's very challenging to try and remain in the middle yeah and are you closer to the middle now yes yeah I think I am too everything was yo-yo yeah it was one thing or the other

and so to actually try and find harmony in the middle is a tricky thing. It's so, it's not boring. I don't want to say it's boring, but you're just not feeling as much, you know. But you are. It just, it's a different feeling, I think. It's hard to place when you're in the middle, I think. So the kind of like mental health stuff, because you talk about that quite a lot. Was that already there and present yeah I've been depressed since I was like six

six or seven I would say and I had huge body image issues from that point as well my youngest memory was being I think I was six and I was in a one-piece swimsuit and I remember looking in the mirror and like letting my stomach out and being like really disappointed in what I saw. And I remember that so vividly, it was like a blue swimsuit with orange trim. And I don't know, I just, I always felt different to my friends, not even with just my body. Although that was a problem, but just, I always felt like I had this internal sadness that other people either weren't showing or didn't have. But I remember like, I've always been introspective. I just never connected to anyone as a kid. And so that was difficult. And then that just kind of

changed as I grew up, then I developed like social anxiety, but none of these things had a name. And then I grew up and in my early twenties, that's when depression like really, really hit me. There was like a moment that I've spoken about where I was really low for a long time. And my ex-boyfriend was in the shower and I had been like really distant from him. And he was in the shower and I walked into the shower fully clothed and just started crying like and he just held me and like I was just crying I could cry now because I just think back to that little person you know just so disconnected with everything and herself and I just yeah that's something that really means a lot to me is is talking about mental health because it does help to feel seen, I think. Especially when you're in that space.

I feel like I'm kind of out of it. And even if I was to go back to that dark place, I would understand it a lot more. Do you accept it more now? Yeah, I accept it. And that's why I think I talk about it so much is it helps me not hide that part of myself. And it can make people feel like a little uncomfortable

I think for someone to hold you in that moment is really powerful but a lot of people don't know how and that's there's nothing wrong with that but they they were never taught and if they don't experience that themselves it can scare them because they think they need to fix it and they think that it's to do with something that's happened. And it's often not. And that's kind of the worst part of it. Like, what a difficult concept to understand. I think it's just so exhausting. Like, it's almost like you're a hamster on a wheel.

And you just can't get off. And you don't even know if you want to get off. Like, it's just this like sheer tired, stressed, and like confusion almost like about everything in your life. And like I said earlier about connection, like nothing clicks. And that brings like a deep sadness in me sometimes when it's like why can't this make sense for me and then I get sad and to feel disconnected from yourself is so difficult because how can anyone else connect to you if you can't connect to yourself makes relationships really really difficult it took me a long time to come to terms with my own mental health and I think very similar to you when I was super young I was very aware of it but I also knew I developed a bit of shame association around it because I was like I don't

think other everyone's feeling this way and therefore I'm going to keep it hidden and to myself and in my solitude and in my room yeah and then as I got older and you know would have this self-facing person that would be on all the time I kept hiding away those parts of myself but then of course in adult life being in relationship you have to be able to show all of who you are and being able to communicate that to someone like you say when you don't fully understand it yourself can be challenging I think like when you have a job that is public facing for instance it's a lot easier to not face the real I don't even think it's the real version of you it's just a different side of you it's just a place that maybe you didn't go so much before and I think that was definitely something I was doing

was pouring myself into my work and my persona if if you want to call it that, and my Instagram and my this and my that. Then when I became single, I started dating new people and like they didn't have jobs like that. And I had to talk about other things that weren't my job. That was another weird thing for me. But I think some triggers are definitely like those more intimate moments. I think it's a fear of intimacy deep down. I think it's probably that. Like I had an issue, a sexual issue, I guess you could say, which was that I found having sex with randoms like really easy. But I think being in a relationship or starting a new relationship and having like intimate emotional sex, that was really difficult for me because I don't think I ever truly did it.

So learning how to do that as an adult and that vulnerability, like I think we've all watched the Brene Brown TED talk in here. here, but it's true. Like to be vulnerable in a sexual capacity as well as an emotional one and letting another person really see you when you don't feel like worthy of being seen. Yeah. Worthy of being seen. Like that is so hard and relationships are so difficult. Like God, Relationships are so difficult. Like, God, no one really feels safe to do that. And then finally you do. And it's like, like, it's so beautiful and it's so should be so easy. And it is. But it's also like the fears are there, too, right?

A hundred percent. But it's something that's so profoundly incredible. And it's what unifies and connects us all. But of course, on the other side of that is the risk of losing yeah and and they've seen you for who you are and now it's over and that's just out there you know I I hate because I'm a control freak Like I hate that there's someone out there that knows me that we're not together. I hate that openness. I hate feeling ripped open and I can't put those pieces back together, but that's growth. You know, that's, that is growth and it's great in a way.

So you feel like being seen feels like being ripped apart. Oh yeah. Keggygy you're killing me right now lord I thought acupuncture yesterday was bad but why does it I mean because there's so much amazing stuff that you're saying that's like I'm feeling the energy of it but is that not what you crave on a level it is what I crave but it feels too much like coming undone yeah yeah and what I'm just gonna lay there open for this person to do whatever they want with it that's love I guess it's trusting that they're gonna be kind to you that's really scary and then what then you break up and then you've got to do it again and again and again it isn't easy but I think the the key thing is that if you have the foundations in yourself

that knowing that if you come apart you're going to be okay that's the real lesson of Saturn Returns I think yeah is you know that I I feel like I'm never going to be as broken as I was then. I feel like after going through that, I can come back from anything. No breakup is ever going to be as heart-wrenching as that one. Every breakup is in a different way, but that was the first real big hit. Other breakups that've had like since then have been brutal let's be honest but what about the one that you just mentioned the one that you don't like the idea of someone being out there that knows you in that way yeah because that was a different kind of breakup for me that was like cruel that was not really ended with love on either of our parts I'd say well half and half

but it was just that relationship that I was in was really toxic for both of us I've never I've never been in a toxic relationship and the toxic ones are the best ones baby oh god yeah I I every day I think about going back there because I'm addicted like it's it's lord addictive love and it is love it's a form of love it's just that's the thing about toxic relationships like you really do love each other but for whatever reason it's not good and also you are essentially in that moment at war with your head and heart yeah between your head and heart yeah your heart is like longing for it and every part of your being really is completely attached and you are having to tell yourself to walk away from the thing that you want more than anything it took several times yeah it does it wasn't a one and done let's say that it was about 15 breakups

what was the moment when you were like, okay, now it's time? You really do just get to a point, I think, when something in you is like, I can't do this anymore. And you really realize it's never going to change. And you are torturing yourself. But it kind of goes back to what you mentioned about being weak. Yeah. To stay. back to what you mentioned about being weak yeah to say yeah in a way I thought I was being weak to end it because surely we should just keep trying we love each other blah blah blah but um that was probably the worst breakup ever I might never go through anything like that again

was it have you ever had a trauma bonding no but that sounds like something I should have heard of. Because often these things are like, I'm going to kind of butcher the way that it was described to me, but it's like the missing pieces of each of you sort of filled with each other. And so it creates this very intense bond that's almost instant. But then, of course, it creates an inability to actually look at our own shadow because we're not fully supporting each other or seeing each other as autonomous independent beings we're like enmeshed and that is the yeah that is the intoxicating thing because it's like if you step away from me I fall apart and if I step away from you you fall apart yeah but we actually cannot coexist in this way but I

felt like with that one it was a soul connection in a sense like we're such a great match like you know it's everything I ever wanted really but it was nothing I wanted it was there was no joy in that relationship and it was all stress and fighting and that's not who I am I think when you're in a relationship that brings out the worst in you and you start to view yourself as ugly because that's all I was showing was like ugly behaviors because I was so I felt so unsafe and unsupported one thing I've been thinking about recently is we put so much emphasis on how we feel about the other person right so you you were obviously madly in love with him on paper perfect chemistry is off the charts so you're like this should work but we pay very

little attention at the time to how they make us feel about ourselves that's so true and that's something that I've realized recently that you know with the people that I I've had that kind of connection with and there have not been many but when I reflect on how I felt about myself, and you just mentioned this, I did not feel good. It did not bring out the best in me. It was like a low vibration behavior. That is an excellent way to put it. Very low vibration. And you almost forget the frequency your baseline normally is. Yeah. And when you drop to that level, you then kind of get stuck in that.

And then you're looking to that person to kind of, I don't know, get you up again, but it never will. And this is a lot of, I think a lot of people experience these kind of relationships and then they go the extreme the other way and they go, oh, I just want someone that's like solid and sweet. But I sometimes think that they settle right because they're almost so traumatized by the extreme of that love addiction behavior that they're like okay I just want an accountant nothing wrong with accountants but my mom always says can't you just find an accountant I'm like god mom what would I do with an accountant

I know exactly what you're saying because it's like I've had enough of this I just want stability you know and it's true but you can find stability and fun you can yeah and what I think it's important to then pay attention to is like you can meet someone who might not necessarily be you know someone that you thought you'd be attracted to especially on the kind of looks front and so to pay attention like when you spend time with a certain person do they light you up yeah and also I always think it's a really powerful thing to notice how you communicate with other people after that interaction yes because if you think about where you're at when you are in that toxicity, you're not really connecting with other people because you're not really there.

Like every conversation you have, you're sort of slightly glazed over. You're not really progressing in your life as you should be because you're just somewhere else. You're so concerned that if you drop your focus from that person, it will disappear or like something will go wrong. And so you're not actually able to thrive into your truest being. Whereas when there'll be certain people that come along and for whatever reason, they just dial you up. And then every interaction kind of afterwards

is like, it's a high as well, but it's a healthy high. And people look at you, people will come up to you and they'll want to be around you as well because something has been fed energetically that's making you your fullest self. And I think it's a really important thing for people to acknowledge. Keggy, you should be a therapist. You have just expressed that so perfectly. And I think in those moments when you are like glazed over, you really don think you are yeah but then it's like how do I ever know how I am if I didn't think I was glazed over then what am I like now and that's my anxiety talking what being like how

how do I know if I'm ever happy how do I know when something is healthy if I didn't know that was toxic how the hell am I gonna know if something's healthy but If I didn't know that was toxic, how the hell am I going to know if something's healthy? But no, I think you do though. Well, you know it's toxic now looking back. I know it's toxic now. And I do think through that, I've grown as a person. So let's see. Let's see what happens. Who knows?

Well, I think the piece here is self-awareness. And then, you know, you still have the option to go towards the toxic thing. Push that button. Yeah, to push that button. It's always there to be pushed it is tempting I mean I seriously think if I saw him like at a bar or a club like I the mind does boggle it depends on my mood probably but it's like it never really goes away you know so I think when you maybe when you get to a certain age like I feel like

you know I'm 31 now and I'm pushing the button less and less for instance and I think when you maybe when you get to a certain age like I feel like you know I'm 31 now and I'm pushing the button less and less for instance and I think you know maybe if I did see him again would be really difficult but I think ultimately I would just step away from the button I think I'm there because you realize that you choose your choice yeah and it's on you the consequences of that decision and when you know what they are you kind of have to be like that button sure looks sexy but I know where it leads so and there's other ways to push the button you know you can do things that are like a little chaotic and kind of feed that side of you that aren't

as detrimental what do those things look like for you I don't know just being silly like just dancing is a huge thing that I love like I love clubbing I could do it sober that's a type of pushing the button for me that's a huge release for me and to be playful yes yes and I think especially in those toxic relationships you you're not playful ever. What are the other ways? Oh God, I need more ways. You know, I don't exercise because I'm lazy, but I really should. I have a Peloton. And sometimes when I get on that Peloton and I'm listening to that music and oh God, that can feel really good. That can feel great.

That can feel better than pushing the button sometimes. Exercise is a great one. Not quite, but close. Exercise, as annoying as it is, actually exercise helps so much. I know. When I have been in the depths of my depression and people be like, have you exercised? What have you been eating? I find it so patronizing. It's so much more complex than that.

Like this is my mind and then I actually realize I'm like actually I haven't done any exercise for a couple of weeks and how that does have an effect and so if you actually have all of those things and are aware of them then it's a lot easier I think to keep it at bay because I giving up drinking for me was a huge one I was like well I'll never get depressed again because that was how I was you know definitely causing a lot of depression and then it would still wear its head which made me feel incredibly short-changed because I was like well I'm not even drinking but it will come randomly and I can't really explain yeah what its reason is but I approach it now as more of a it's like a house guest you know I'm like okay you're here uninvited but come in don't know how long it's gonna stay but I think the more or the less I

try and battle with it the the easier it is yeah and when you have days like that just take the bath have the tea stay at home do do what whatever you feel like you should do you accept it I really do accept it and it's like okay this is my time to read and think and journal and do my yin yoga and like I don't know just get in touch with myself again on like that level would you say that you've detached from the shame piece around it that you know picked up when you were younger yeah that's gone that's gone is that from speaking about it publicly yeah I think so and I also take medication which helps and I think like dealing even with the stigma of taking medication for it that was huge in getting rid of my I mean I probably haven't completely lost the shame for it but you know

medication's not for everyone and I don't preach that it is but if it's for you then losing the shame around that that was huge and I still am depressed by the way even on medication this just makes it easier for me to live my life it just brings you up to a baseline you speak a lot about vulnerability and we've kind of touched on it and these are all very vulnerable topics but what does that truly mean to you oh I think it's a it's that weakness that I'm so afraid of it's like letting people in to my life and showing them that I don't actually have my shit together I can be self-conscious and I'm not always a positive queen I don't always feel amazing and like snatched, you know, like it's, it's showing people that I have feelings too, you know, and it's a

process. I'm still working on the vulnerability thing. I think in my personal life, I'm really vulnerable online. Like you just said, these topics are all really vulnerable to me. They don't seem it. Yeah. The way I described it to someone was like, it's because I like to be very, I, you know, people often message me saying, oh, you're so vulnerable, but it doesn't feel that way because it's easy for me to sail from port to port being vulnerable at every like, you know, because I'm on to the next and I'm on to that, but being vulnerable and having that intimacy with, with one person is a whole different kettle of fish. Like, to me, these conversations are part of it.

And I'm happy to, like, do these things. But it doesn't feel, like, difficult. But if I was, like, one-on-one with someone in my flat and the lights were dim and the candles were on and we were talking, like, that's when I get a little bit like oh is this safe is this safe is it safe yeah but I guess safety is something like trust that's earned with someone I think I have major trust issues let's be real I've got trust issues into me intimacy issues loads more I honestly think it's like deep within myself. I don't trust myself. Like. Yeah, I get that. As a kid and stuff, I was just, I was like a daredevil.

But with my mind, I always felt really stupid. Like I hate trivia. I will never play a game of trivia. I hate trivia. Yeah. Like if someone said to me, what's seven times seven? Even if I knew the answer, I wouldn't say it. I just hate appearing dumb.

That's like a problem within myself I think with trusting myself and trusting my own like if a song comes on the radio and someone's like do you know who this is even if I know it's Elvis I'm like don't I don't want to answer don't ask me stop trying to make me feel dumb I have exactly the same thing and then there'll be something that I need to do or like something that I need to read out and it'll be like you're not going to be able to read it you know reading aloud yeah it's like I obviously know how to read but there's a seven-year-old in me that like because I it took me a really long time to learn how to read because I was really badly dyslexic so I think that part of me still comes up as like you can't read this and it's horrible because then

it actually manifests and I can't and for a long time you don't even realize like you can't read this and it's horrible because then it actually manifests and I can't and for a long time you don't even realize that you don't trust yourself no so it's all news you know and it's all happening and all these relationships and people's feelings and your feelings and the intuition is also really huge like hearing your own inner voice, hearing the voice and listening to it. That is huge. I don't do it all the time, but you know, sometimes it's like if a relationship ends, it's like, I knew that would end. Like, why did I ignore all of those feelings within myself?

That's why journaling is so crucial to my existence. What comes out on that paper. It's the truth. Lord, I don't know what happens between the hand the pen and the page but that's like a magic wand do you just channel when you do it you just just right yeah not every day I should do it every day I typically do it every morning but the things that come out on that page that's probably why it's so hard to maintain that habit well the intuition thing it is like a muscle.

But of course, we're not socialized to trust it because it often will go against our logical and linear thoughts. If you start listening to those subtle nudges, then it becomes stronger and it becomes a little bit louder and it becomes a little bit more clear when it's coming up. And close to the surface. Exactly. and it becomes a little bit more clear when it's coming up. And close to the surface. Exactly. Like I really should meditate because that's a huge way you can find that voice, right?

Giving yourself the space. Like I hate to be that person's like, do you do yoga? Because I've really fallen out of my practice and it's so sad because I used to really love it. Not for the physical physical just for the mental space and why don't I do it more I think maybe sometimes I don't want to give my space the brain my brain because there's that sort of the monkey part of our brain that's like you know no it's

boring it takes so long we're going to be there for far too long it's an hour and a half blah blah and just doesn't want to create that space I think we're far too engaged with that part of our mind and we're feeding that through social media technology all the things all the time that like we're not creating enough separation and I think people need to find whatever practice works for them true yeah exactly and social media oh god that would be a whole other episode yeah I think it's the most draining thing on the planet and it's your career it's my career and I'm starting another you know project also revolving around social media it's what I know how to do this mirror water yeah it's exactly what we've been speaking about today I actually don't I am so bad at like

plugging anything but it's something that I started because of all this inner work and this self-reflecting that's why I wanted to start it but again like I had a huge struggle with why am I starting something about self-reflection and learning how to be with yourself and I'm launching it on social media like but that's that's the age we're in that is the age we're in and also that's the vehicle for you know being able to access your community yeah exactly so I'm trying to like figure out new ways to exist on the internet that aren't so damaging to my own mental health do you feel like you've got the balance right with it?

No, no, I can't. It's my job. I cannot have the balance with it. I'll never switch off. It's my personal life is online. So there's no separation. There is no separation. I take weekends off,

but I don't take weekends off from looking at my phone. But do you think you should? Oh, yeah. But that's like prime time yeah so how can I not post something on a Sunday but you know what I mean it's like always a thought I should be posting I should be doing that because if I don't it's like not going into work on Monday morning that's how it feels really sometimes yeah so what are your aims with the mirror water community well I felt like I couldn't really properly explore self-reflection and all those things that are like mirrored in our lives on my channel that's not really why people follow me I don't

think so I wanted to start a new community I guess with people who did have those sorts of ideas and thoughts in the forefront of their mind you know that place is for those people so doing that and then you know I love beauty products so obviously I'm going to be launching some products soon can you tell us anything about what the products are um I can say that they are for the body. Okay. We'll say that. Yeah. Is there any little pieces of advice you have for our audience who are navigating their

Saturn return? Journal, hold on tight and just go with it because you can't resist it. Don't resist it. You're in it. So just do it. Yeah. I always say to people I'm like buckle up yeah I always say please hold on to the handrail because yeah it's not going to be a bumpy little ride well thank you so so much for joining us so much of this conversation really resonated with me listening back.

Particularly this idea about letting someone see you when you don't feel worthy of being seen. That really hit me. Because in a world that strives for an unattainable perfection, this can feel alien. But I believe it's what we all ultimately crave. And here's the conundrum of vulnerability. That which we desire the most often faces the most resistance. And I'm afraid there's no shortcut, because trust me, I've tried. And by listening back to this conversation with Esther, I can hear how that's what she desires most and I think through what she's creating at the moment she's taking those steps to allow herself to be seen in that space

and so I honor her for her truth and encourage her on her journey and I hope that this conversation resonates with you and I implore you to do the same. We are so ready to hand over agency to other people, subcontracting our authority and it's one of the greatest challenges during your Saturn return, although often painful, to realize your own inner strength, your own autonomy. Weakness is not synonymous with vulnerability, we just live in a world that sometimes tells us so. So be a little bit more playful, lean into your femininity and notice who supports that beyond the frequency that lifts your spirit and don't be afraid of who or what you lose in that process. When you do this you're an invitation for others to do the same.

When you do this, you are an invitation for others to do the same. Welcome back to another season of Saturn Returns. You can find more about Estée and her brand, Mirror Water, on her website, estelalon.com. That's spelled E-S-T-E-E-L-A-L-O-N-D-E. You can also follow our astrological guide, Nora, on Instagram at Stars Incline. And you can find me at Kagi's World. If you enjoyed today's episode,

I would love it if you could follow the show and leave us a review on Apple. This helps us find more like-minded people. Saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. The producer is Hannah Varrell and the executive producer is Kate Taylor. Thank you so very much for listening and remember you are not alone. Goodbye.