Saturn Returns with Caggie - 5.9 Understanding Your Pattern with Lisa Donovan

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

Lisa Donovan, founder and CEO of The Pattern app joins Caggie to discuss how she went from cynic to astrological entrepreneur. They discuss the transition from ‘maiden' to ‘mother’ and how your moon sign is more important than your sun (birth month) sign. Caggie also gets a personalised chart reading and learns more about her relationship with her body and mind in her twenties.  --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Fail as quickly as possible. Fail fast. Ugh, all the time. Make a mess. Make all the mistakes.

Like it failed and I'm still alive. Today I'm joined by Lisa Donovan, entrepreneur and founder of the astrology app, The Pattern, which if you haven't got it, I highly suggest you download it now. I absolutely love it and all my friends are on it as well. Lisa is a fascinating individual and I actually have wanted to speak to Lisa for a really long time. I've been a fan of hers from afar and then more recently a friend of mine, Farley, was like, oh, I just met this amazing woman at a dinner party. She created the pattern. She's called Lisa. She's just moved to London. And so I was so thrilled to be introduced to her and to

have her on the show. Lisa started her career as one of the first YouTube content creators way back in 2005 before founding a content studio, which was later bought by Disney in 2015. After selling this company, Lisa experienced a very turbulent time in her life and started to question a lot of things. And that led her to astrology. And she had her first reading and then something just clicked for her and it set her on this mission. I was so excited to have this conversation with Lisa because like I said I've wanted to speak to her just wasn't able to

get in touch with her until you know divine timing and she's moved around the corner from me and she was just so interesting to talk to. I love how people have these spiritual awakenings and then these moments in life where everything changes and how they then lean or discover astrology and she obviously gravitated towards it so much she knows so much about it every time I see her she does these incredible readings for me and I think you will find this conversation super interesting. Before we get into any of this though let's hear from our astrological guide, Nora. Astrology works for us.

Among other things, it helps us uncover the patterns of our lives and help us affirm the natural traits and talents we possess. Depending on which astrology system you follow, you can also find your purpose. Or rather, your higher purpose. There is a clear distinction in astrology between career and purpose. Career, status, income, relationship status are all related to karma, which might align us with our purpose, or it simply might bring us the means and opportunity to further explore our purpose, which in astrology, or at least Vedic astrology, relates to dharma. which in astrology, or at least Vedic astrology, relates to dharma.

Dharma is how we serve our higher selves, or the divine. It's what fuels our emotional engine with passion, without us ever burning out, for the more we fuel it, the more we grow. It's often abstract, and we're made aware of it early on in life, or later, when we've detached ourselves from early childhood conditioning. To get a hint of what this could be or to confirm what it is, we can use numerology paired with astrology as well as deep meditation and guidance by someone representing matters of Jupiter. Jupiter would be a benevolent teacher, a mentor, or even a spiritual figure who guides us rather than imposes their projections and manipulations upon

us. When looking at your chart, you can start by looking up your north node or your Jupiter placement. You should look at the signs therein, the area of your chart they're lighting up, the degrees therein, and just research everything you can about it. This information will further shine a light on what it is that will nourish your heart, inspire your mind and liberate not only yourself but also others. A few life events will bring you closer to it or pull you away from it. But the truth is that if you are truly open to it, your purpose will make itself known through people, life events, world events, until it screams at you loud enough that you can't ignore it anymore.

So you can never truly miss your purpose, for it will keep calling no matter what you know, or no matter what you do. But your free will can cause you to either answer the call or ignore it. Lisa, welcome to Satin Rich Heads. thank you so much for having me you know what's funny i actually wanted to get you on like a really long time ago someone talked because i've been on the pattern for such a long time and then when you know our mutual friend farley said that you moved to london i was like it's meant to be so for people that don't know would you be able to explain a little bit about what you do and how you sort of got into it because obviously astrology is such a big part of your life and you've created one of the most successful astrology apps which is incredible and so like how that came to be how that came to be well I actually I started as a

YouTube content creator back in 2005. And this was like when YouTube first launched. I mean, nobody knew what YouTube was. Nobody knew what I was talking about conceptually. What do you mean you're making online videos? Like, what is that? Started creating this content. I had this channel that took off of just pop culture parody. And I did that for three years. And that was quite a grind because there was no money at the time. So you had to work a regular job, but you had to make all this content. And that experience was basically inspiration for co-founding this company. I founded in 2009 called Maker Studios, which was like a united artist for YouTube content creators. And I went all in on that.

I was the one with the credit, so I went very in debt and got a lot of leases of my name in Los Angeles, moved YouTube content creators out to L.A. and had the studio and did that for five years. You actually moved them out to L.A.? I got a bunch of leases, you know. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And again, that was kind of at the forefront of that whole movement. Yeah, so that was founded in 2009 so very early days um it was when you could live in Venice and not have money it's changed a lot that's definitely not the case now yeah um it was sort of before that silicon was this in Venice this was in Venice amazing um and and you know I didn't know much about business I didn't plan on that I was a creative but over time I stopped doing the videos and was just on the business side of it. And it was like going to business school on steroids, I suppose. Did you enjoy the business side of it?

Yeah. I mean, it was just a wild experience. And everything, the stakes are so high. Because you're in it, which I tend to do in life. I jump in, in the deep end. And then I try and figure it out. Because then I got I'm committed I gotta be committed because I gotta I don't know I feel like I'm the opposite I feel like I'm like trying to weigh everything up before before taking the sort of step the step which doesn't really work so so each their own though that maybe it

does you know that's probably the smartest thing to do. I don't know. I don't know about that. Looking at what you've managed to create in like quite a short space of time and also pivot in these different ways. So after that, how long were you doing that for? So I was doing that from the start to selling. So it sold to Disney in 2014.

That was five years almost to the day. And again, just this rich life experience and learned so much. And not only about business, it was an emotional journey and personal journey. Basically life got a little crazy, maybe a year before it sold. My whole life took some radical changes on all fronts,

relationships and work. And my father was sick. All these things collided at once and sort of broke me open. More like an ego death, I guess, you know, like who I thought I was, the choices I'd made, all these things came into question. And I realized, oh my gosh, I know nothing. I know nothing about myself. I know nothing about why I make certain choices. And so it started this kind of new path in my life, I guess, without sounding too woo-woo, like a spiritual path.

You're in the right space for that. I'm in the right place. Let's get woo-woo. But it's interesting that you were experiencing that sort of internally when it sounds like externally everything was going incredibly yeah I mean I was selling your company everything's amazing yeah you know and it was you can hold both at once but um but this sort of was this awakening and I started looking at life very differently and it was humbling and i wound up having my first astrology reading during this time and i was not an astrology gal before that i you know i grew up in a home everything was very logical and analytical my dad grew up very irish catholic and had left the church so

we had no religion in the house and he didn't believe in anything like that so no spirituality nothing so and i remember being a kid and being confused i was like well what um what happens you know and it's so great if somebody's saying you're just gonna go to heaven i wish i had that because you know my mind because i can have a very analytical and obsessive mind too i i would overthink this a lot you know life and death i i definitely if you don't have sort of answers or a spiritual connection it's confusing and it's terrifying especially when you're going through something turbulent yeah well it makes you it makes you realize you don't have control

of anything and that's what a relief thank god right you know but if you don't know that you're running around trying to hold everything together yeah and it continues to fall apart and it's just falling apart yeah actually i'd say that was one of the most amazing times too kind of in that moment it almost felt like everything i was trying to hold together had failed which was almost a liberation because i was like oh okay because you're constantly trying to prove something, work something, hold it together and enable this. And then you're like, oh, it's failed. It's over.

You're just like, okay, I'm free. Like it failed and I'm still alive. You know, so I always, not that anybody asked for my advice, but if they do, I'm like, fail as quickly as possible. Fail fast. Oh, all the time. Make a mess. Make all the mistakes.

Yeah. And get over it. That's like such a lesson for the this podcast it's like because I felt in a similar sense and we all go through our own challenges but like the more I tried to hold everything together and control it the more things the more resistance I face and the more pain and then just by simply relinquishing control and surrendering a little bit, you allow things to unfold as they're supposed to. And it will pivot in the most extraordinary ways that you could never have predicted. Could never. Because when I made certain changes, in my mind, everything had failed and nothing was going to work out. But then miraculously, everything did, you know, and we sold the company and it was incredible. And then it took me on this new path, you know, where I

wound up, um, all kinds of things I got into, but I had this reading, the astrology reading, knowing nothing. Yeah. I, I had this reading, you know, kind of went in not thinking anything and it kind of, it just blew me away because it was more of a, a mirroring. I think I thought astrology was predictive or they're telling you this is going to happen at this time. And, you know, this was much more a mirror to who I was and just made me feel seen. And it makes you realize things are you think you're in this silo controlling everything. And then when you get a chart reading, you realize, OK, everything I'm feeling is something that the stars are telling me I'm meant to go through. So then it's like, ah, okay. It's so comforting and it's empowering because you can feel very

disempowered by your life and so confused and like, I don't understand why I'm victimized by your life. So to me, this was like, amazing. I can own all this. So when I'm running into that problem or this relationship doesn't work, it's not about the other person. It's me. Yeah. What's my lesson? What's my lesson? And what am I doing?

And how am I contributing to that? That it was very empowering and liberating because you can spend a lot of time trying to figure out someone else's behavior. Totally. Instead of your own. I think we're all guilty of that. And like someone told me on the podcast, Mark Groves actually came on and it was I think he was quoting Sam Harris. But he was talking about if you were in someone else's shoes, self-sell, experience for experience, you would make exactly the same choices that they have. And when he said that to me, was like god I've agonized

over so many moments trying to think well I wouldn't do what they did and if I was in their shoes I wouldn't do that of course I wouldn't because I'm not them right and like you said rather than you know projecting all of that onto the other person we don't take ownership over our own shit and when we do it's actually really empowering. It's the best. And that was a big part of it, too. I felt I was so excited to understand all the people in my life and where they were coming from or why maybe certain conflicts would come up or I'd feel a certain way around somebody. And, of course, then I became obsessed with that and just started reading and learning and getting readings here and there. And, you know, friends still tell the stories. So I'd walk around with, like, a bag of books.

And I'd be like, can I talk to you about your chart? And I'd, like, be with friends and I'd come with my books. As you were learning. Yeah, yeah. And what supportive people in my life. They just encouraged it. They weren't like, you're nuts. Because it feels, I mean, it feels, in my mind anyway,

even though obviously I'm doing this podcast, like when I talk to Nora who does the astrology for it I get very overwhelmed very quickly because it's so vast the amount that you can learn but you just dived right in yeah it was it was so exciting for my mind and and seeing the patterns because to me that's what it was it was okay I have this thing where I maybe I feel deficient or I'm not enough I need to prove myself okay who else has that pattern okay you have that okay and you have this the commonality yeah and seeing the connection of the patterns that we all have and then seeing when we don't share certain things how it'd be so easy to misunderstand and and project all kinds of things onto each other

and and what a gift like I said to just know that and have perspective that you think they're they're not wanting to listen to you but they have a tendency to be a little bit more detached and spacious it's not personal there's nothing to do with you nothing has anything to do with you ever and that's lesson one we do tend to fall into this quite black and white like yeah you know someone's in the right someone someone's in the wrong. And often, you know, in the process, victimize ourself. But fundamentally, what it kind of boils down to is it gives you a lens to view the world where rather than saying, I am a victim of this situation or this person is wrong me and like hurt me in this way. You can see it as, oh, this person's activated this wound, which is the lesson that I need to learn so I can unearth this and move through it into like the evolution of my becoming and vice versa and so we always

offer each other mirrors and like that's why relationships are so complex because it suddenly comes into this point where you're like it shows you all the things that you can't see on your own so well said yeah exactly that's what it is I mean every experience you're having I believe in life is really a reflection of what's inside of you or we can even say your chart right so if I'm struggling with something in terms of not feeling like I'm enough and I really believe that I'm inadequate I'm not enough that energy is what I will bring into my life via other people and circumstances because obviously like when one goes through their Saturn return, often and something that I experienced was this massive theme in authority

and how that would always come from the outside. And I would sort of hand over the keys to my kingdom to anyone that came along to tell me how to do things. And I realized retrospectively that that was an opportunity for me to actually realize that it was internal. But I have a lot of people that, you know, that came to the live show of the podcast and stuff like that and they kind of have this fear around oh what's going to happen is if it's something I don't I don't mean to kind of make it seem like this moment in time where everything's going to fall apart and you have no control over it but it's like these lessons are going to come. It's mainly about changing your perception of your experience.

Completely. First, let's talk about the Saturn return too. That can be the most incredible time of your life. I mean, that's when I started that first company. So whatever you put your energy into at that time is just the most important thing because it will likely yield some kind of result. That's right. It will yield yield results and Saturn isn't easy so that's something I look at in a chart if somebody has what's called a Saturn complex because that can be a psychological

feeling of being inadequate not enough needing to prove yourself that something's wrong with you and that's a theme of your life right and then there are Saturn cycles like the one you're talking about Saturn return that impact people for like nine months at a time it's like a gestation period it's time to grow something um so people who have saturn are kind of always dealing with that sense of authority like you're saying or you know i'm not enough i have to i have to deal with this and some people don't have saturn experience it for these nine months windows and it's brutal but if you have saturn so it's a nine month window yeah it's brutal but if you have Saturn so it's a nine month window yeah it's like we think of it as a gestation period yeah that's interesting you

have to give birth to something and there are also Saturn cycles you can have outside of the Saturn return there's all kinds of cycles and that's what the pattern does Saturn work in seven year cycles it does but there's all different places in the chart that saturn can impact right so you could saturn could be impacting your moon could be impacting your venus could be impacting your mars a saturn return is saying that saturn has now gone through basically 30 years which would take 29 years it's back to its exact place at the time of your birth so it's a very specific one and seven years later it's squaring its exact place at the time of your birth. So it's a very specific one. And then seven years later, it's squaring where it was at the time of your birth.

But when we look at cycles, Saturn can be, you could be going through Saturn to your son. Well, I'm going through a Saturn something at the moment because Nora's told me, but I'm like, and it's also a Venus something. So I've got like these two energies kind of going on. But then we'll get into that. So when you did that reading, these two energies kind of going on. We should look at, I was going to say, we should do a little short reading.

So when you did that reading, it just something just sort of landed for you. Yeah, because it was that mirroring. And it was like, yeah, that's, I can stop fighting myself. This is who I am. So he's just telling me everything I know about myself, but maybe I don't think it's right,

or I'm fixing it, or I'm doing all these things and contorting myself. Were you resisting your true nature? Yeah, I think there was a few. I have a lot of what's called Saturn in my chart, an exceptional amount. So it means my life is also about learning to love myself because Saturn is telling you everything is wrong. Everything about you is wrong.

From as early as you can remember. And you better fix it and fix it fast. This is why that motivate, it motivates you to like manifesting perfectionism. Exactly. Cause you don't always know what's running the show. And if you're not aware, of course, and it takes these incredible life experiences to open you up and realize often. That's right. And then you're like, ah, this is who's running my whole life. And I don't have to listen to that critical voice. It became this incredible tool for me at a really challenging time.

And that's when I was like, this would be wonderful if I could mimic my experience in an app and then everyone could have it. And I was like, well, OK, how am I going to do that? I was like, it'll be it'll be easy. I'll just figure it out. Like I said, I just jumped. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This will be easy. No problem. Jump in. I'll hire some people to do it. And of course there's nobody you can really hire to just do that. And I just, I didn't really take a break just right after selling the company. I basically dove into this and sort of convinced this astrologer um the same one that you saw yeah i

said if i would you sit with me for like if i came to you you know for for a week could i just spend eight hours a day just like extracting from your brain and you know i'll pay you let's let's do it and he's like yeah so i did that i just started asking questions So it was a long process because it's not like it's laid out. You're trying to take an oral tradition and make a system and an algorithm out of it. And then content. But I mean, thinking back now, I'm like, what were you thinking? But you know, I was just, I just wanted to understand it. So that passion was there. Granted, it's not, it's not the smartest way to do it because you go do something and then you start testing it or talking to people and it doesn't make sense. And then I have to go

back. And he's like, well, yeah, because this, that, and the other thing. And I'm like, ah, well, why didn't you tell me this, that, and the other? Now I got to rewrite the whole thing. So it was really, um, but that was your process. That was my process. That's what it was. And it was a creative catharsis really too. Like I said, I was processing a lot of things in my life and my father had gotten sick at the time. So I'm selling my company. Also, I don't know what you do when you sell a company. I wound up moving home to my childhood bedroom and building the pattern and living with my dad. He was, it was his last year, you know, year we're trying to find alternative treatment for him. And so I stayed there until he passed and then stayed with my

mother. So I basically was doing this from my home. Yeah. And I didn't really have a life. It was very monastic. It was very, it was this thing I kind of needed. It was this creative catharsis, as I said, and something to focus on. And I mean, in hindsight, it's like, oh yeah, you were trying to make sense of the irrational, all these feelings. It was too much. So I was like, oh, I'll just make this happen. I'll make sense of it. I remember even saying that to the astrologer once. I was trying to get him to be very definitive about something.

And at a certain point, he's like, wait a second. He's like, did you realize this is a mystery? And I was like, oh, my God, of course. And I was like, we don't. There is no definitive answer to anything. You just have to trust. And who and who knows it is life is, is serious. We don't know. Anyway, so that was my process. And so, yeah, I would, I'd be writing sort of 10 hours a day, just in there and doing that. And I was doing that for years, kind of in my own way and creating the

pattern. And then it's about three years ago, I was able to put it out in a beta at that point, meaning, you know, a first version. Yeah. Test app to send to friends. And I don't know, I can't remember now, but I think there was like about a thousand people on it. One day I wake up and there's 30,000 people on the app. And it was like a field of dreams. You know, if you build it, they will come. I was like, what? And I think I even took a photo of my face smiling. I was like, what is this? How did this happen?

Just completely organically. Yeah. That was like overnight. It was kind of like magic in a way. And then from that moment on, it was just word of mouth. People just sharing with friends. We're sharing with friends. And we just get X amount of signups a day.

And then. And how many are you on now? Well, yeah. I guess we have almost nine million no yeah yeah it's pretty cool and is that do you kind of acknowledge that number does it just seem so huge that it's almost incomprehensible no it does I mean it it's it's funny when doing it, it all seems normal. It's not like it happened overnight. You know, this was years of work, right? So it wasn't like I made something in a week and people jumped on. So by that point, it was just a lovely moment of like, wow, because you're in a silo making this thing because you think it's amazing you don't really know if anybody's gonna have any interest in it and who you know I was told by many people like nobody's gonna read that it's so long so like you said it was your own personal catharsis so as you were going through that journey you probably would have done it anyway regardless because what it was it was kind of like emotionally sounds like it was like stabilizing 100 and I was like well I'll use it for yeah this is great you know but you don't know because you're in a style you have no idea if anybody's going to think this

is interesting or accurate at all did you think about that a lot in that process in terms of like how people would potentially respond to it definitely i mean obsessively in the sense that i wanted it to be available to people who are not interested in astrology at all those who would be skeptical and miss out on on the wisdom that is there so I didn't want it to be in your face astrology and that's why everything there is no mention of astrology in the app we don't mention Saturn or Venus or Mars and there's no symbols it's all translated so yeah so we acknowledge stuff yeah and that's part of it so you're kind of it's kind of just reading a story about yourself It's all translated. Oh, yeah. So. You really acknowledge stuff. Yeah.

And that's part of it. So you're kind of, it's kind of just reading a story about yourself. It's like an encyclopedia about you and what you're going through. Yeah. And your friends and your family and your relationships. And I did that because I was somebody who would have been great if I knew this stuff when I was 20. But I probably wouldn't have done it because I'm like, ah, an astrologer. I don't know.

Well, I know it's got this sort of reputation. It's definitely shifting dramatically. And I think, you know, you can see in the amount of people that are on your app, even though you don't talk about those things, it's still known as an astrology app. But in terms of it having a renaissance and a rebranding, because it was associated as like, even when I was growing up, it was like weird kind of people that.

Yeah, witches and people looked at crystal balls. And like the whole branding and everything. You're like, no, I'm not going to go there. No. And that's, again, this is so many years ago when I had the idea. The whole world has changed. And now astrology is like the coolest thing ever. So it's great timing.

It worked out. But at the, you know, at the time. It wasn't at the time. No. And so it's just very simple it's very clean you know we just have our our pattern logo and that was a big part of it too I wanted to name it something that was a word everybody knew but had deeper meaning I didn't want it to be like you know stars and comets app you know I wanted it to be something that um you know resonated in

that way and the pattern was it took many years for me to get it, but it was once I figured out what I wanted. That was it. I was like, that's it. And in terms of building out the infrastructure, how does that work in terms of, because it's obviously so complex and everyone's different chart. How do those kind of layers work

if you can communicate that in quite a digestible way? Yeah, I mean, that is the magic of it is this algorithm and this methodology and the way we do approach it, because you can approach astrology from all different ways, you know, and it's the uniqueness to ours that would be way too complicated to just sort of sum up. But essentially we, at the moment of your birth, basically we're saying there's meaning. You take your first breath, that you're the creative expression of the universe in that single moment in time, as above, so below.

So where the planets were in the sky at the time of your birth, there's meaning in you as a living, breathing person. And this is the path of your life. And I feel like we're taking the most important pieces of that. We're much more moon-based, I'd say. We don't find the sun as important. Sun sign was mostly just to sell newspapers 100 years ago. They knew, you know, the month you were born. But to know your moon, which changes every two and a half days, some expert would have to tell you.

But that's much more specific. Two and a half days versus 30 days. Right. Or your ascendant is every two hours. So we're trying to get the preciseness know, the preciseness of who you are and it's very archetypal. So that's what it is. You know, there's 12 different signs and they're applied to the moon. They're applied to the Venus. You know, you're a Pisces moon. Another person might be an Aquarius moon or I'm a Gemini moon. And we're saying there's, there's meaning. And

we describe those archetypes. So mine's this, you's this kid that just doesn't want to grow up and wants to laugh at everything. And your Pisces moon is this priestess, empathetic, merging with everybody. And that's an archetypal thing. So you think there's more importance in looking into your moon sign? Well, it's the moon, the Venus, the Mars, the Ascendant, the Midheaven. And also the complexes are very important. Mars, the Ascendant, the Midheaven, and also the complexes are very important. So when a complex, meaning if you're born with Saturn and hard aspect or Pluto or Uranus or Neptune. So if Saturn is an aspect to your Pisces moon, it's a very different thing than just a Pisces moon.

How so? Well, Saturn is one of the first things I look at in anyone's chart, if they have it or not, because it's going to be never done a reading or somebody isn't like, oh, my God. And I'm just like, from as early as you can remember, you've just felt that you're not enough and you need to prove yourself and you're inadequate. And it's like liberation to hear that. And when it would be applied to a Pisces moon, it would be you're not enough. And it comes out in the way you give. Pisces is a giver. So it's a you better give more. You're not enough in that way but can you look at mine sure let's get into it i remember i hear pisces yeah usually if i look at a chart i won't forget it wow that's amazing

because that's the patterning i was with a friend yesterday who actually asked me and i said that i would ask you this because she was a c-section baby and then she said that whenever she has her chart read it doesn't resonate like her placements and so she questioned whether it you know if she's a c-section baby does that then mean that it's not no I was a c-section baby it's your first breath she might she might have the wrong time I've had that happen people have told me many times you're like I love your app I have to tell you. I've had that happen. People have told me many times, they're like, I love your app. I have to tell you though, I used it the first time and I was like, this is totally wrong. This is ridiculous. And then I found out my birth time was totally different

and I came back and changed the time and it was bang on. So she might have a time issue or it might be the people she's going to. but now I'm like, I should talk to your friends because I want to tell her about her chart. Because if it isn't accurate, I'd be curious. So it's pretty rare for somebody to just... Not connect with it. And I'm okay with that too. I don't, you don't have to.

To me, this is just a tool. But it wasn't of the pattern. It was just like when she's going to a pattern. When she reads a pattern, it's accurate. I know, when she gets gets readings she's saying it's yeah I now I'm curious if you could send me her time okay on her birthday but she'd love that anyway let's get into my chart so you have your own just to say for the listeners that obviously can't see you have your own within the app or is this just another app on my because the way I read

charts is is I just look at the wheel the planets i just that's personal for you for when you meet people and you can just yeah i'm doing this all day long because everybody i meet that's why the that's why i made the pattern too it's everybody i met i wanted to know their pattern because it's fascinating so you you said are a pisces moon in our our algorithm there's 12 versions of each moon, and you're the Pisces version of the Pisces moon. What does that mean? You're the most Piscean. We're the most Piscean of the Pisces. So we look at the moon as your lineage, kind of where you've come from.

So you've lived many lifetimes as the moon, and then you come into this life, and that's kind of all you know. That's your ground, you know, and, and yours is Pisces. So that is, as though you've lived many lifetimes being an empathetic healer, priestess giving, it's a giver and it's very, um, it picks up all the energy in the room, comes in and it's feeling everything. It's absorbing everything. It's almost like there's no self. There's no ego. There's no, it's totally open. And it's so sensitive.

So I'm fascinated by Pisces moons because they're the most mysterious to me. I found in my creating the pattern because that sensitivity is so extreme that it can be something you feel you can't, you have to disconnect from. It's too much. And especially for, I would say you have to disconnect from um it's too much and especially for i would say men in our culture it's very hard to be a pisces wound because it's so vulnerable it's so porous it's so open and you're merging with everybody it can be the most codependent in that sense yeah because you're picking up the other person's thing and what's that yeah it's always like who am i so pisces wounds can masquerade as as not sensitive so that's why I love doing someone's chart and finding out they are because maybe under that heart exterior I'm like oh you're really just

sensitive and then it usually comes out when they're drinking or watching a movie and they're we kind of we spoke last time we met and I said how you know I used to sort of numb out and use alcohol and stuff to disconnect and sort of disassociate from that part of myself so that I could navigate through without absorbing everyone's energy or feeling like I was picking up on all the stuff and then I think I presented myself as someone that was just like quite desensitized a lot of the time because you a Pisces moon will become their environment so they can grow up in a aggressive home they can seem like an aggressive person if they

you know everybody's partying and drinking yeah then they're doing that so and that's very common with Pisces too is alcohol you know that that kind of a thing um it's also very spiritual the Pisces usually means you have a capacity to like connect to spirit and maybe hear things or be spoken to or that intuition um you know vision those kinds of things so it's a really um I always talk about boundaries Pisces you got to learn boundaries how do you stay here in the ground you know and and and start creating an ego a sense of self oh man that was like that I went through in when I moved to LA when I was 27 when Sonia was like okay I know who I know who I'm not because I think I was surrounded by and it's not say anything

against those people but because I was morphing into any situation I found myself in and often they weren't the right situations and then because I was in a tv show when I was quite young and then the press and then it was like this entity got created that was me and I was like I don't think that is me but I don't know who I am well we'll go with that because I have no idea who I am so let's do that for a little while and then it became this kind of very Jekyll and Hyde sort of thing and then I think you know that's how I kind of came into astrology myself because I was like I don't know my identity but I know who I'm seeing like this version of myself that I'm seeing that I'm not yeah so how do I kind of cultivate my values and like find my community and there was like a sort of self-inflicted exile in that process because I could not stand true to who I was trying to be in those various situations.

I would just morph. Yeah. It was so second nature to me. Yeah. You don't even know you're doing it. So you're in it. I have a lot of similar stuff in that. I have a lot of Neptune.

So I would do very similar things. That really resonates what you're saying. And then that's the process of you usually have to back away. Certain people can't be in your life, which is also very tough because Pisces wants to be the giver and doesn't want to hurt anybody. Yeah. And you're Libra rising. So you really want people to like you, you know. But that's really incredible and brave that you did it because some people can live a lifetime in this kind of pain.

And that's, again, to me, why I made the pattern because that can be life-changing. Well, similar for you. It's like after I had these realizations, I wish I could remember the exact moment when someone actually fully introduced me to astrology. I guess it was perhaps talking with Nora a lot on Instagram and then things slowly

starting to land but like retrospectively I'm like if I knew those things then I would not have felt so alone that's right because we feel so alienated and again why I wanted to make the pattern because I wish I had known this stuff you know growing up and in my 20s and so yeah so then now your Venus which we think is is another very significant part of your chart, is in Taurus. Your sun happens to be in Taurus as well. But let's say you didn't have the Venus in Taurus. You wouldn't really have anything very important, we'd say, in Taurus. And this is why I think astrology, sometimes people don't find it accurate because they only know their sun sign and they don't relate to it because they know themselves as a Pisces sun.

But every other planet in the chart is not that way at all. It's dry and not emotional. And it's like more of a Capricorn or Virgo. They'll read Pisces and be like, but that doesn't resonate at all. What is that? So that's those moments. So your Venus is in Taurus and you have what's called a Pluto complex. One, your Venus was born in the underworld. So she was hidden behind the sun what you're comfortable with, beyond your control and forces you to surrender. Your Venus is in Taurus, which is all about self-love and pleasure and enjoying the body and receiving.

Right. So it's all about being comfortable and safe and receiving and enjoying it's it's very different than Pisces they're very different that Pisces is the giver Taurus is the receiver is it quite like Nora always says to me Aphrodite energy that's exactly if you're a Taurus moon you're coming in pretty confident about who you are you're kind of lucky to be in my presence right now um I'm not going anywhere if If you want to see me, you can, you can come here. They're like the honey and they don't feel a need to prove themselves. They're enjoying their body. Their experience are very, anything that is not comfortable, they will not do anything that threatens their security. They're not interested in,

but you're coming from Pisces where all you know is giving it's, it doesn't have a strong sense of identity, but you're being asked to kind of cultivate the strongest sense of identity you know Taurus is a very confident I am entitled to be here and enjoy my life but you have Pluto which takes that into the underworld and it and it makes that feel like that's not allowed for you or every time you try and receive it's dangerous or something irrational happens and your security is stripped from you and it's very uncomfortable and it can impact your feelings about your body it can like disallow you to feel comfortable in your body well I had a very tortured relationship with my body throughout my 20s so yeah that makes sense but Nora also always sends me and we send

each other pictures of she she often's like the Monica Bellucci in terms of like someone that's very feminine and like able to receive adoration. She's like, this is the energy you need to be like harnessing. And so that kind of makes sense. Yeah. Cause it's antithetical. I mean, you're coming in thinking your value is in what you give and you're being pushed on a path. It's like, no, it's about learning how to receive because you're always going to know

how to give. You're an expert. You've been doing it for lifetimes. So you got that. We don't want to stay stuck there. So it's moving into, yeah, just pleasure and think about why you're doing something. Is it going to bring you pleasure and enjoyment? It's not about rushing.

It's very relaxed. It's very relaxed. There's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do. I'm just going to sit on the couch and I'm going to eat. Perfect. Yeah. I mean, I wish, I think it's such a great one. And your Mars is in Cancer. This is the part of your chart that we'd say, it's you. There's a part of you that is Cancer. It's your Mars, but it's where we also see relationship experiences. that is cancer it's your mars but it's where we also see relationship experiences and we often project this part of our chart onto the other so let's say you're looking for somebody to take care of you in an emotional way to be your emotional security blanket like it's the mother archetype so you'd want them to really parent you parent you but's not what the chart is going to allow.

You have Chiron to it. So there's a wound to it. So it's... Just for those that don't know, because Chiron is like where you have your wounding, right? Yeah, it's the wounded healer. It's a wounding that's unique to you. And only you know what that is.

But we'd say there's something that you've gone through related to intimacy and relationship and being able to feel nurtured and cared for emotionally. The point is for you to do it. So once you can be the mother to yourself, and this goes so well with Taurus, Taurus needs a mother. So, you know, the cancer part of you coming in and be like, what do you need? And how can I take care of you? And doing that, because then you can, you won't attract this wound again this is your chart so if you're not dealing with it you will bring in relationships that are very wounding yeah I mean just to when I was going it was literally the window of my this relationship was the window

of my Saturn return which is crazy that I had and the month it ended was the month myself and I didn't actually know this at the time by the way I. That's the best part of it. I only looked it up the other day and I was like, oh my God. But it was very much, I do come into relationships and they're kind of like wanting to be parented a little bit and looked after emotionally. And I was, I guess, like that in this relationship. And then something happened that meant that I was so betrayed and the carpet was so bald from underneath me

that it just, like all of that just disintegrated before my eyes and it did kind of put me on this path of having to like because for the first time in my life I cultivated enough and learned enough about these practices and these things that I didn't go into victim mode and that I also was like okay I have to give these things to myself but I think it's also a constant lesson yeah because it's quite becomes quite embedded doesn't it yeah and some people it's going to take six seven relationships and they'll like it yours was at that time that's your soul chose it you made that choice yeah right and that's a brave choice it's not easy it's much easier to be like it's's their fault. And then you try it again, you just do it again

until it breaks you of this pattern. And that's amazing that you did it. And me and Kelly, actually, we've been speaking a lot recently. He's a mutual friend of ours about... We love you, Kelly. We love you, Kelly. About kind of moving from the maiden into the mother role and this transition that's happening.

And I definitely am feeling that at the moment. Kelly and I spoke about that too. I'm obsessed with the whole maiden queen. I mean, we have different versions of it, but that's that concept for, I don't know if the audience knows, but the idea that we all have a maiden within us, which is a sort of very stunted, wounded girl, who's pretty much driving the relationships you're in.

It's like, there's an 11 year old girl who is dating these people. And you're in it's like there's an 11 year old girl who's dating these people and you're like you're here to save me yeah why aren't you saving me yeah let's be codependent it's like damsel in distress oh yeah complex and as long as you're in the maiden what are you going to attract you're going to attract a little boy who can't do you know you're unless the queen the woman will always say no to the shadow of a man. Okay? So she won't be in a relationship with the shadow of a man. So you know you're in your maiden if you're with a man that's very shadowy. And you've got to be like, why am I doing this? How do you know if you're in a relationship with a man that's very shadowy, though?

I think we always know. But we ignore these things, right? Your intuition is, no, something's not right. The maiden thinks it's great. It's wonderful. The drama, the up and down, the push and the pull and whatever is going on. That's where the maiden lives. This is what she knows.

I'm not a relationship expert, but my maiden was driving the show pretty much always. So it was more about discovering that and seeing that side of myself. And then I can love her and laugh. And now I know her and I know her behavior. And I think myself and everyone else is going, what are they talking about? Oh yeah. I think they're going, I know exactly what they're talking about. It's so funny.

I explained it to my mom the other day who's much older and she was, her eyes were. You can be the maiden forever. Your whole life's much older and she was, her eyes were. You can be like the maiden for FF. Your whole life. I think she was like, oh my gosh, I'm in. Like, whoa. Because that's what I mean by who's running the show. So you got to spend that time with like, is it the shadow, the critical voice in your head that is driving everything you're doing?

Is it this maiden that's like, I'm desperate for love, love me. I'll do whatever, whatever your maiden is. That's mine. You know, who is it? And then once you see her, then all those relationship patterns make sense. Because then you realize the drama you're bringing into your life. So now I can be like, wait, I don't want that. I'm going to make a different choice and that's you know the queen is not gonna an amazing queen is not gonna want to date a 10 year old boy you know she's gonna not be interested in that and I think that sort of initiation in that process you then will invite the right partner that's right and you'll continue if the maiden's running

the show that is all you will meet you're not and, and you're going to be like, why? I don't get it. Why is this happening? I mean, I'm still learning this lesson. But every time, hopefully, you know, you level up and you're always attracting wherever you're at. I know, right? We could talk for like all day long. Okay. So you're Libra rising. It's such a, I have to say, this is such a, like the word is like lovely chart, like Pisces, Taurus, Libra, Cancer. These are very feminine, very sensitive, you know, Aphrodite, the Taurus and Pisces, the

giver and Cancer's the mother. And Libra is like the friend. Libra is all about relationship. So this is another part. This is the part that might be a people pleaser and wants everybody to like them. It's very concerned about their friends and it's very focused on relationship. It wants a long-term committed partnership. And that is your destiny. Your path to God is relationship in a way. But we'd say ideally conscious, equal relationship, not the codependent, which of course you'll do that. This is your rising sign. You've never done it

before. So you're going to make all the honest mistakes, all the wrong choices, until first you become your own best friend, because Libra can be the most codependent, right? So how do you, instead of being so worried about being the best partner, the best friend to somebody else, first learn how to be your own best friend. But we say that's part of your destiny is definitely to have a committed long-term partnership. And the ideal partner for you is not, we'd say is Aries. So it's somebody who is going to be very, well, very committed. Basically, they're going to say this relationship is my number one priority because you're able to do that too Libra and Aries that's the relationship

is the number one not where you give up who you are you meet each other in consciousness but it's about having someone come and claim you and make it very clear I'm here Aries is a warrior it's a protector it's all about commitment and it it's pretty, it's very straightforward. There should be no, like, confusion. And we say it's about letting them claim you. LibraRising don't, they can make the mistake of going out and kind of think it's their job to find the relationship. Yeah.

And this is the easiest one. It's just like, do not do that. The right partner for you will come and claim you. Let them do it. But is that different for other people sure yeah yeah everyone is different the relationship path for a Leo rising is going to be do you even need one do you need a relationship probably not you're you're the queen creator courageous fire make it up as you go if you're going to have a partner that's fine but they can't get in your way and it's there's no codependence and the relationship probably won't be the priority so for people's rising sign they can actually have a better understanding of like how their

relationship plays a part in their life or how to seek it out yeah that's all in the pattern folks yeah it's all in there so that's what we talk about that's how we talk about your ideal relationships based on that yeah it's very that's helpful. That's one of the most helpful ones, especially if somebody has a chart of Libra rising and they have like a Scorpio moon. So they're the ones who always take action. And all they do is like, no, I want that person. I'm going and I'm like, don't ever go after anybody again. Just let someone come to you. Cause you're so used to being the one driving it. But Libra is about letting them, letting them claim you. You're so used to being the one driving it.

But Libra is about letting them claim you. Because that's how you'll feel safe. You've got that person who's there and they're solid. There's no confusion. And you're in... Oh, right. So you're in Saturn. Interesting, because you're in Saturn to your Venus. We can't not talk about Saturn.

February 15th, you started a nine-month Saturn cycle. So Saturn, like we said, comes in and it's trying to force you to make changes, trying to have you look at the situation and assess what's working and what's not, because it usually comes in and brings blocks, boundaries, frustration. So where you're seeing things that aren't working, it's about letting them go and committing to something else. It's also a good time to channel it into a project or something because Saturn is about manifesting in this world and contributing that way. So is there something you can focus or channel this energy into? Because what you don't want it to do

is make you feel insecure, start doubting yourself saturn can have that impact too but yeah where are you seeing blocks and boundaries i always say when saturn it's like if you've been working a job for 10 years you're underpaid you go into your boss you say look i want to get a raise and they say no trust that that's the reality of the situation and make a change based on that so sat Saturn's lessons often can feel quite harsh and abrupt. Yeah, they're blocks. It feels very frustrating. It can feel very depressing.

It feels like pushing the boulder up the hill. And, like, it's so much work and it's so heavy. Like, oh, you know, it can be depressing. It can be quite, like, guillotine style in their ending in terms of if something's not right it just abruptly ends it can when these things happen we'd say well that's a good thing it was meant to end because there's certain ones that are about relationships very specifically it'll be like a nine-month cycle about partnerships we'd say if you're in one and it is not working this is when it will end

you know without being predictive but we say this is where it will be, you know, without being predictive. But we said, this is where it will be challenged. Or if you're single, don't even bother trying to find a partner because you're just going to hit, well, just take the nine months to work on yourself. So these things are helpful because you could spend nine months just like, I desperately want to be with somebody. And you could have spent it working on yourself. Okay.

Because I think for a lot of people listening, I feel especially in the context of relationships, they're always like, if they're starting to question something, especially if they're like, perhaps a bit younger or something, they've been in something a long time. And then they question whether, you know, during their Saturn return, it's suddenly going to fall apart and almost being sort of apprehensive about that moment. Saturn return is wonderful. the idea with the Saturn return that's one of the Saturn cycles that it's about leveling up yeah this is like this is when you get married this is when you start the business this is when you have the kid it's really like I'm making a massive change in my life that's what it's about it's it's a pressure to get you to act

and it's all about how you relate to that. If you have no Saturn in your chart natally, Saturn transit can feel very, very depressing, very heavy, very uncomfortable. If you're someone like me who has a lot of Saturn, you're kind of used to it. You know how to consolidate that energy. You're just like, yeah, it's your, I had a friend who's a Scorpio moon who doesn't have any Saturn, very powerful woman. And she had Saturn to that moon and she, it was brutal. And I was like, okay, so you know how you feel for these nine months? It's like, it's how I feel all the time.

She's like, oh, I get it now. Okay. So how does it, how can you interpret it in my chart for Saturn though? Well, you just started a Saturn to your Venus Saturn doesn't feel good for Taurus right because it's making it feel restricted restricted yeah so this is I mean I'd ask you because it's been a month and a half are you feeling any kind of Saturn things yet or not what restrictive just pressure pressure to do something to change something it's like a motivation that's sort of ideal other parts

of it can make you sort of feel insecure doubt yourself or or feel a bit depressed or like you're hitting the wall or things are blocked I would say more the former in terms of having a real energy to try and like expand things and great business and there's definitely resistance and challenges and I'm dealing with more confrontation probably than I ever have before but that's a massive thing for me to have to learn how to deal with that conflict for things to elevate and progress but I'd say that's because you're so aware that's how you're taking it right so you're taking some people could take these conflicts as they could be very debilitating and so what's amazing is you're taking that because the idea with Saturn is you're supposed to grow it's nine months it's like a rebirth of something and it's going to be uncomfortable and you're gonna have to do some

work but at the other end you're much better for it so would it if it is it's in opposition to Venus is that what it is no what Saturn my Saturn well no so you don't this is a cycle you're going through for nine months and it's squaring you okay right now it'll be over in nine months it doesn't it's not there all the time okay but you have pluto in opposition to your venus that's part of we'd say your pat you know your life it's a theme in your life this pluto the you, feeling dangerous to prioritize yourself. Everything feels dangerous. My security, my safety, my sense of esteem, of prioritizing myself, of doing what I want. That's selfish. This is dangerous if I do it.

Somebody might die. I can't do that. Oh my God. Right? That's so true. I know. I have like such rational fears about things like that. That's Pluto.

You've done nothing wrong. That's what I'll say. It's part of the path that that's Pluto you've done nothing wrong that's what I'll say it's part of the path it's taking you deeper it's making a much more complex interesting person um you're finding out that your security is something much deeper than you originally thought it was and the lessons will continue to come to prove it right but you're just much more aware the lessons aren't as tough the older you get unless you refuse to heed to them at all how much do you use then the pattern and astrology to sort of feel day-to-day life now well i mean you have yeah you have so many phases of it so of course when you're first doing it everything is so literal and it you know and then you get over that because that's very disempowering i don't want the pattern or astrology to be disempowering.

And I think if you get OCD about it or you give your power away to it, this told me this, so this is how it is. You're getting in. It's not helpful anymore. This is really a tool. So if it's helping you reflect, understand, be more conscious, be more aware, have a perspective about the relationships in your life. That's great. So I think I'm in that phase now where I'm aware of it. It's just knowing,

oh, wow, like I'm in one of the most intense Pluto cycles you could ever go through. Some people will never have it in their life. You are too, by the way. So you just started one just in January. Mine is almost done. It started last spring. Why is it so intense? Because it's on an angle of the chart. So it's a major initiation about the most progressive part of your chart. And Pluto comes in and makes you feel like it can be very like an existential kind of crisis. Like, why am I here? It sort of strips away all the things you think you want, or maybe you sort of get them and then they go away irrationally. It's trying to get you to be more authentic and more connected to your, in my case, my ascendant in cancer. It's trying to get you, yours is in Capricorn, it's on your home and roots.

So this just started and it's very much based on birth time. So it could have started last year if your birth time is actually a little bit different. So it's something to keep in mind, but usually it's an initiation that's, it's trying to really push you forward. It's a very progressive part of the chart. So it's trying to take you there, but Pluto comes in through irrational, unexplainable events or situations or experiences that you've never had before. It's trying to take you to a place where you don't have control out of your comfort zone. So you surrender. So it's been a process of me surrendering again, I think, because I spent six years of Pluto.

And then I hadn't for a while. And I have this one. And I'm like, wow, there's a lot more to surrender. Who knew? You know, and what are you attached to I'm like, wow, there's a lot more to surrender. Who knew? You know, and what are you attached to? Pluto comes in. It's like a forest fire. It doesn't care.

Taking away. It's not logical. So what isn't supposed to be there goes. And it's just a good thing to know about because it's just in the field. It doesn't have to be overwhelming and brutal. I think it mostly is if you resist what's happening as opposed to accepting and moving through it. And it helps to just be aware that it's happening. So you're like, oh, okay, I'm going to maybe view that a little irrationally right now. I should tell my

friends they should know, not be seeing things clearly for a little while. What else? And you have Jupiter to your moon that just started last week. So abundance, expand Jupiter's gifts, abundance, expansion. It's wonderful. Everybody loves to have Jupiter on your moon. So it's expanding that part of you, you know, your heart and opening you up and softening you. And it gives you a certain kind of oomph and confidence. I mean, you have so many cycles at once. You have a Pluto, you have a Jupiter, you have a Saturn. And in June, big cycle, Uranus is going to come. So that's unexpected, radical, novel changes.

Trying to take you to other worlds. It's very celestial. It's really exciting. But change is change. Some people like it, some people don't. you know, and it's just about going with the change. Whenever you have Pluto and Uranus at the same time, that's like revolution in your life. I mean, I can see some really amazing things changing. At the same time, you have Saturn, so you could feel like I got to stay, I got to keep it all here. But it's like Pluto and Uranus are kind of like a time outside of time. They don exist in this 3d world so you're having to deal with things are so irrational in everyday life so it

can feel disorienting sometimes but I love Uranus it's so fascinating so you're going through quite a big transition now yourself yeah yeah well it's been for a year 10 months left and then I have Jupiter coming which is nice to the career part what do you feel is next for the pattern then are you able to talk about the dating side of it yes so we're that's and that's an exciting part of it too because we've really just been in a beta and it's sort of you know there's a couple hundred thousand people on it, testing, fixing, getting feedback. What's unique about the dating is we have this exceptional algorithm that understands compatibility. So you can go in and you swipe and you can be attracted to somebody and then find out they're your soulmate or it's extraordinary. There's actually this couple in the beta who we spoke to in the fall that came from totally different states backgrounds were on it in the beta and were soulmates so they decided to talk and they reached out and said you don't understand there's no reason we should ever know each other be with each other and now we're

together and we're in love it's changed our lives and just yesterday an email from her telling me they're married and having a baby and that she wants to do that. This has changed her life and every friend's life. And they're going to do a whole art exhibition on finding their soulmate in our connect data. It's unbelievable because she's like, we just never would have dated. We have no reason to know each other. We're just not even in the same state. I know. And I was I was like wow so it's really about just having a lot of people on there so we can find you know you need people to match with to find your soulmate I was just blown away that this happened and they took that chance and was so exciting gave me hope Kaki maybe I'll find my soulmate I feel like it would seem manipulative.

So I feel like I shouldn't be on a trip. I would never do that. But yeah, but sure. Yeah. If we had a bunch of people on there. Lisa, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. I found this fascinating. A lot of things to go and think about.

Thank you so much. Yeah, this is really fun. And thank you for creating the pattern. thank you so much yeah this is really fun and thank you for creating the pattern I love what Lisa said saying that we will experience many Saturn cycles the Chiron wound is also something to look out for

because a lot of people have mentioned that to me before so if you want to have a look into your chart or download the pattern and have a look at what it has to say about you and also to try and get your birth time correct because it's so important for the accuracy of a reading if you want to hear more about lisa you can find her at mother of patterns and of course

download the pattern app when you get a chance saturn Returns is a Feast Collective production. This episode was produced by Laura Gallop and the exec producer was Kate Taylor. Thank you so much for listening and remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.