Saturn Returns with Caggie - 8.3 Celestial Guidance with Alice Bell: Birth Charts, Compatibility, and Divine Timing

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

In this captivating episode, Caggie talks to Alice Bell, the author of "Trust Your Timing" and an astrologer for British Vogue. Alice takes us on her journey into the mystical world of astrology, where she discovered it as a means to refine her sense of spirituality. She shares how practicing the art of reading people's birth charts became a profound learning experience, allowing her to understand that there's an intricate timing for everything, and life unfolds as it's meant to. Alice delves into the fascinating concept of transits and their role in our birth charts, emphasizing the importance of looking beyond the surface when it comes to compatibility. She enlightens us on the nuances of astrological connections in dating, stressing that the quest for a perfect chart match isn't necessary. Alice discusses key elements like the ascendant and descendant lines, shedding light on the significance of Venus as it relates to personal aesthetics and surface-level attractions. Moreover, she provides invaluable insights into what to watch out for in potential relationships to avoid negative consequences, all while exploring Caggie's intriguing birth chart reading and the pivotal role of nodes in discovering one's life purpose. Join us for an enriching conversation that delves into the depths of astrology and the art of trusting divine timing. Order Alice's book Trust Your Timing here. Find Alice at her website, Instagram, Substack or read her articles for Vogue. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I'm joined by the lovely Alice Bell, author of Trust Your Timing and an astrologer for British Vogue. In this conversation, we discuss Alice's journey into the mystical world of astrology, which I was surprised to hear that she got into quite late in life. What I found really useful about this conversation with Alice, and I think you'll feel the same, is that she makes astrology and the birth chart very digestible in the way that she talks about it. it doesn't feel

too vast or too overwhelming and some of the things we touch on in today's episode are transits and the role they have in our birth charts emphasizing the importance of looking beyond the surface when it comes to compatibility which I know if you're like me I I mean, one of the first things I did when I met my partner was look up his chart. And I think that, you know, what she speaks about in this episode is how, how we can use charts for compatibility and recognizing themes that might come up so that they're actually helpful as a roadmap and growth for our relationship rather than making it this oh our signs aren't compatible very surface level stuff but what particularly struck me from Alice's work and her book is it's a very Saturnian principle because it's around time and

I think as we reach our late 20s and early 30s we all feel this intense pressure because we're looking around and seeing everyone doing different things all feel this intense pressure because we're looking around and seeing everyone doing different things at different times and feel like we're falling behind. But what our birth chart reminds us is that we all have our own timing and we're all supposed to be doing things at different stages and there's no point in comparing yourself to other people because they're on a very different road and map to yours. So I hope that this episode is useful for those that are struggling in those feelings at the moment and that it gives you some solace. We also discuss the ascendant and descendant lines shedding light on the significance as well of venus as it relates to

personal aesthetics and surface level attractions we also explore my birth chart and some pivotal moments that are going to be occurring so watch this space now now we know whether it's going to happen and we can reflect and i will let you guys know at the time whether any of those things came true. It will be quite interesting. But if you find some of the themes in today's episode useful, please check out our Saturn Returns course, which is available now. point of establishing your purpose and recognizing how you might be being held back and what you need to lean further into the course is really a personal development course for those kind of struggling with identity purpose and wishing for greater clarity but you also have a greater understanding of saturn and its themes and how we can utilize its energy and play

it to our advantage in our lives rather than feeling at the mercy of it and that was really my intention with this course to create something that I wish I had during this transition that allowed me to get through the wilderness. So I hope you enjoy it. It's available now at saturnreturns.co.uk. So without further ado, let's get into this episode with the lovely Alice Bell. Alice, welcome finally to the Saturn Returns podcast. We've had a couple of attempts to get you on, but had technical difficulties. Yes, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Oh, you're very welcome. There's a lot of synergy, shall we say, between what you do in Saturn Returns. And for the audience that doesn't know, would you be able

to introduce yourself a little bit and tell us about what you do? to introduce yourself a little bit and tell us about what you do. Yes. So I'm Alice. I'm 30 years old. I live in New York City and I'm a full-time astrologer. This has been my career since January, 2019. So like four and a half years. And I do a lot of things as an astrologer. I recently wrote a book. I also am starting a podcast. I do like courses and workshops. I host astrology retreats. So it's a little bit of everything, really. So you became sort of full-time astrologer at the end of 2019. Beginning. Beginning of 2019. Sorry. So what led you to astrology? Was it something you were already

studying or was it something that you just stumbled upon? It was definitely something I just stumbled upon at age 25. So in early 2018, a year prior, that was kind of when I started to like really get obsessed with studying astrology. Before that, all I knew was, okay, this is my weekly horoscope. Some of it resonates, some of it doesn't. I never knew you had like this full birth chart. And I feel like when I taught myself how to read my birth chart, just taking myself through like every single planet and Googling what that meant, that was what really clicked. And I was like, I feel so seen, like all of these personality

traits are so validated for me. And then I was was like everyone needs to know about this so I started giving astrology readings to everyone in the office just practicing on everyone I knew so what were you doing before I was a fashion assistant at Vogue okay nice because the way your book kind of I feel from reading a lot of astrology books, or should I say attempting to, your book is very digestible for a mind or someone that doesn't know a huge amount. Because as you well know, it's so vast, astrology, and can become very complicated in some astrology books. It's overwhelming when you start getting into it. So I really appreciated that yours felt digestible. I'm very intrigued that it was something that you got into, I guess it wasn't later, but was your family in interest in that kind of thing? Were

you brought up in that kind of way at all? No. So I grew up in the South of America, which is very religious. So it was always like go to church on Sunday, like religion kind of way at all? No. So I grew up in the South of America, which is very religious. So it was always like go to church on Sunday, like religion kind of pushed on me. And I rejected that as a young adult. I was like, I don't want to go to church anymore. I don't know if I even believe in God. So astrology was a way for me to like, re-find a sense of spirituality. And it like opened me up to believing in something bigger than myself again. Yeah. And I would say you aren't alone in that. I feel that a lot of people over the last couple of years as religion, obviously this isn't for everyone, but seems to

play less of a central role in society in the way that it did. There's still this appetite for spirituality and for something slightly beyond the realms of our comprehension. And I feel that astrology is playing a really big part in that. Yeah. Cause you can like relate it back to yourself a little more personally. Like you can see how it's showing up and like, Oh, this is why I'm feeling this way on this particular day and kind of relating it back to your own life in a more individual way. I feel like that's why it resonated so much with me. And when you started learning about it and understanding your own chart, did you just

teach yourself or did you have teachers that you lent on or anything? I initially, so I had a therapist who kind of introduced me to my birth chart a little and gave me the basics, but pretty much like I taught myself through listening to podcasts, taking workshops by other astrologers and just reading a ton of books and practicing. I would say like practicing on people is the biggest way. Really? So practicing reading people's birth chart was the way that you learned the most? Yeah, it was like, okay, looking at their birth chart with them next to me and then Googling what the things meant or looking it up in a book. And then they would tell me what resonated with them and what didn't, because I feel like certain planets and certain signs show

up very differently from person to person. There's not one like strict definition. certain signs show up very differently from person to person. There's not one like strict definition. And let's go into that a little bit more because would that say that each astrologer's interpretation can vary greatly and how much of it is it to do with the interaction or the personality of the person that you're with? Yeah, that definitely plays a role. Also like the astrologer's past life experiences. So like experiences I've had in my own life are carried into like how I'm interpreting something based on how I've seen it play out for me and also past people I've worked with and read that particular placement. And do you find that it's hard to manage that sense of responsibility for people

that you're reading for yeah like sometimes I'll have to be like okay well this is my interpretation like sometimes I'm not going to be 100 accurate um and maybe I was missing something because I don't I haven't experienced all the interpretations of what that might look like so you've mentioned that timing is a really key thing that you look at like in terms of and i feel that that resonates with our audience given that the this show is sort of centralized around your saturn return which is a really big moment and time in one's life so how why is that so important to you and how does astrology play into that i think understanding that there's a timing for everything and using astrology to see that timing

has just brought me so much inner peace. Like I'm someone that likes to have control over a lot of things and know what's in the future. So understanding that like, okay, this is not meant to happen until this particular year or month allows me to just like chill out in that current moment. So I would say that's like, that's why I'm so obsessed with that part of astrology. Can you give me an example of that, of the sort of thing that might, you know, either cause you stress or someone else listening, but they're thinking, I really need to know when this is happening, how can astrology sort of alleviate that anxiety? Like with relationships, like feeling the need,

I feel like there's all this pressure to be dating all the time and be like on the apps, looking for someone. And with astrology, you can see like, okay, there's certain years where it's more likely you will form a significant relationship. And there's other years where that just simply is not the focus. So when you're in those years where the relationship is not the focus, and you can know the astrology behind that, it's it allows you to just like, shift your attention to other areas of your life. So you're not as stressed out on like, why am I not meeting someone? Why is everyone else coupled up and I'm not? Also with career too like understanding

timeline of when you might have success versus like when other people are having career success is it easy for people to interpret this themselves if they look online and just look up their chart if they aren't necessarily that well-versed but they want you know they're listening to this right now and they think I'm really feeling that way. And that pressure with relationships and finding the one, I'm going to go on to astrology cafe or whatever it might be. What's the best way for them to home in on their charts, if they can themselves, to see what to look out for? they can themselves to see what to look out for. So with this, you're looking at a transit chart, which is where the planets currently are in the sky in relation to your birth chart. So it'll be like a circle around your birth chart that moves as the days go by. And websites I recommend for

that are astroseek.com and astro.com to look at transit charts. But I go into like the fundamentals of transits in my book, they can be a bit tricky to learn at first. Let's get into it. Yeah, you're looking at so many different moving parts with transits. So can you can you give a bit of an overview for transits and what they are and how they play a role in our chart? Yeah, so planets are where or transits are where the planets are currently. So when you hear of like a new moon or a full moon or Saturn going into Pisces, for instance, that's transits, current transits. And everyone like at the world at large feels a new moon or a full moon when it's happening, but where it's falling in your chart, like what houses and

signs it's activating in your chart is how it's going to show up for you on an individual level. So for some people, like the full moon might result in positive career news or for others, it might result in a breakup or a fight with your partner. So that's looking at like, where is that full moon falling around your personal birth chart based on like the sign the full moon is happening in. So it's going to impact us collectively and also very uniquely depending on the chart. Yes, yes. And like, what else can we know about transits? Like, what else can you tell us about a sort of individuals one? Yeah, so with transits, I mean, there's planets that move more quickly,

like the sun, Mercury, Venus, new moon, full moons. Those are kind of, those indicate how you're feeling on like a daily or a monthly basis. So tracking where the moon is every day can give you a sense of like, how productive am I going to be today? Or am I going to be super sensitive and emotional? And then you have the longer transits like Saturn or Pluto or Uranus. And those kind of show bigger chunks of your life. Like Saturn spends two and a half to three years in a sign, and that'll activate a particular house of your chart for that long. And that shows like a more major, I don't know, chapter of your life where bigger themes associated with that house are coming up a lot more strongly for that three year period.

So the longer transits like Jupiter, Saturn, and also where the eclipses are taking place in any given year or two, those I look at more for bigger life events taking place, like getting into a serious relationship, having a massive career pivot um moving across the country that type of thing and what are what planets do you look out for when it comes to relationship those i look at yeah so i look at um where jupiter saturn and the north and south nodes are transiting through your chart, but what relation, if they're going through a relationship house, so like the seventh house, the fifth house and the eighth house, those parts of your birth chart are very much tied into intimacy, um, commitment and like dating more. And then also when those planets crossover, like your moon or your Venus or your son, that often brings up a lot of relationship activity as well interesting okay yeah and also you know because a lot of people that listen to the podcast they'll be i mean they'll say oh am i going could i be going through my saturn return early or late

i'm like no but it's worth it's worth acknowledging and i'd be interested to speak to you about this and how you see it play up in people's charts about um you know Saturn squares and oppositions and how much how like obviously your Saturn return is like this big crescendo of a moment but as I'm sort of out of that and now going into my Saturn maturation I'm like is, is that going to be similar? And obviously, I would, yeah, I would love to know your thoughts and interpretation of, of Saturn, really. Yeah. So, I mean, Saturn's my favorite planet because it really like where it's transiting in your chart, you're restructuring that whole area of your life. And those Saturn transits are really pivotal, like the return, your Saturn square will come up in 2025, 2026, when it goes to Aries. But when people are asking, like, if they're having a Saturn return, and they're not quite

at that 28, 29, 30 range, usually in return, yeah, progress lunar return is a big one that's at age 27 and that can bring up similar feelings of um feeling like you need to reparent yourself or like better understand your emotions and just learn how to like nurture and take care of yourself um so that's a big one but then also like the other saturn cycles like you mentioned um, the Saturn square at age 21, the next Saturn square, which is like 36, mid 30s. And then Saturn opposition in the early 40s. Those are also big turning points where it can kind of feel like a Saturn return where it's like, things are very frustrating, and it feels like it's taking a really long time to happen, or you're making necessary adjustments and changes in your life. I guess it's sort of what's coming to mind is when people have their

midlife crisis. Yeah, that's a huge one. That's Saturn opposition, like I mentioned in the early 40s. And then also Uranus opposition. So like the combination of those two is like, oh my god, I need to break out of these limitations I've put on myself and really be true to like the combination of those two is like, oh my God, I need to break out of these limitations I've put on myself and really be true to like the person I'm meant to be. And buy a sports car. Yeah, exactly. That's like an acting out like. It's so funny though, because it's really textbook, but you see it happen time and time

again. And would it be fair to say that depending on how you've, I guess, initiated during your Saturn return, that's going to play a really key role in your next Saturn square? Or is it kind of like a whole new bunch of lessons? I would say whatever is initiated at the Saturn return or whatever new direction you end up pivoting in at that time is significant for the next 30 years until the second Saturn return in your late 50s.

So it's kind of opening you up to this new three-decade cycle and closing out the first three-decade cycle of your life. And at that Saturn square in the mid to late thirties, and then the Saturn opposition in the early forties, and then seven years later at the next square, and then the second Saturn return, those will all mark pivotal turning points that are kind of like check-ins. It's like, okay, are you still on a path that is like in line with who you are? Are you still doing, are you still living true to yourself? so it can be tough like realizations that go on then because saturn brings up like the harsh reality that you might not always be facing

um it kind of like cuts through it's like okay you need to put in the work to do something different at those times yeah or it can be an up leveling right yeah yeah like taking on greater responsibilities or earning like more recognition and respect in whatever field you're in yeah I just had a conversation with someone earlier and they brought up that you know their partner was going through their Saturn return but they they didn't really uh seem to notice anything and it seems to be a recurring theme that given our audience, the majority, it's very heavily female. Yeah. But generally speaking, women seem to be much more aware of this transit and this shift, should I say, than men. And I was curious to know what your perspective on that is. That's such a good question. I've never thought about that in

depth, but now like thinking about it, my partner was going through his Saturn return at the same time I was going through mine these past three years. And I feel like he didn't notice that much. Like there was not a lot going on for him either. Um, I do say like for people that are like, I'm not feeling my Saturn return as much. Sometimes that's like the point of Saturn. It's like not much is happening and it can be kind of frustrating. But in terms of like men versus women, that's, yeah, I would have to do more research on that. I really don't know. Yeah, I know. I was thinking about it because most men, I was thinking about it because most men obviously there are the exceptions but yeah um what I've noticed and this is purely my own observation is that at 33 they kind of start waking up

33 is um a 10th house perfection year and so that's another timing technique so 33 is a lot about turning points with career and being like where do I want to be long term with my goals and how can I yeah it's a lot about making adjustments at work okay yeah which would make sense I feel because yeah interesting and as we kind of Interesting. And as we kind of discuss the opposite sex, a lot of your book is around compatibility. And I feel that, you know, our audience probably similar to me, the chart is the first thing you go for when you meet anyone. But often no one knows how to interpret it. I know.

And I was finding your book really interesting in some of the points. Obviously, I was applying it to my own relationship. Yeah, yeah. And some of the things you mentioned, like the positives of having, sharing a sign. But in, you know, my, for instance, my moon is in Pisces. You're also a Pisces moon, I believe. Yes, yes. for instance, my moon is in Pisces. You're also a Pisces moon, I believe. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And my partner's a Pisces. So I definitely feel that we have that. That's really strong. Yeah. A really strong sort of emotional understanding of each other. Yeah. That sun moon combination with partners is really key. And then also like you're a Libra

rising. So also when people have planets that fall in Libra on your ascendant that would also be really impactful um but how come because it's like it's similar to the sun moon where it's like with the sun rising or the moon rising connections you just feel like seen as a person if you're're the ascendant person, it's like, okay, they get me. They understand how I'm trying to express myself. That type of vibe. And what is some of the things to look out for? So for our audience, like, you want to do a little bit of a deep dive. Definitely the sun moon thing.

Connections with the rising sign and also the sign opposite to the rising, which is your descendant line. So like for you as a Libra rising, the opposite sign to that is Aries. So people with Aries planets or Aries characteristics. Also the midheaven and the icy angles of the chart. Those are really important when other people's planets touch upon them. Because it's like this sense of feeling very at home with the person. Um, and like you're building a future together, like you're aligned on the same common goals. So like your mid heavens cancer, your ICS Capricorn having like, it's

common with like family members to have planets in that or people that you just feel very like connected and close to. And then of course you have like, um, when people's planets connect with like your Venus or your Mars sign, um, either in the same sign or aspecting that through like a square or an opposition that brings up like initial attraction and Saturn contacts are really important with synastry too, because that points to like longevity and like wanting to put in the effort to make the relationship work. Not giving up like when there's the slightest like inconvenience early on in the relationship. So like someone with Saturn

and Aquarius might seek out people more with like Aquarius placements that fall on that Saturn or possibly like Leo Scorpio Taurus making a square to that Saturn and Aquarius because both me and my partner have um Venus and Taurus okay yeah yeah so that's a good um just what about like people with Scorpio planets too what about that a lot like with friends with friends i do but i find i find them quite challenging yeah yeah because um yeah i thought that i don't know whether it's the scorpio sort of energy but there's this like air of unpredictability of like i don't know it's like oppositions are super common in synastry which is why I ask because Scorpio is the opposite of Taurus and you have the Taurus sun and Venus um but there is

often that push pull of like they have traits that I wish I could have in myself but then also maybe there's like that tension of like they're so different from me because a lot of people you know when they look up their chart or their compatibility you know people have said to me oh would you would it be a deal breaker if someone's chart wasn't compatible I'm like no not at all because obviously it's so nuanced and these things can go in so many different ways so what is your advice and thoughts on that? Have people kind of water it down so much that they are put off with a lack of compatibility on this quite a basic analysis? Yeah. So if you're just Googling, like, is my sign compatible with theirs? And it

says, no, I would not like put any weight into that. Like that's not accurate. So you really are looking at like the other person's full birth chart in comparison to your full birth chart and nothing with astrology and like the comparison of the chart shows compatible or not compatible. It's not that black and white. Really what you're looking at is like, okay, this is where the strengths and weaknesses lie in the relationship. Like where are they aligned? Where do they have a good time? Where do things come easily?

And where might more challenges arise? Like communication or trust issues, things like that are able to be seen with the compatibility, but not like this person is not right for you. It's never going to work out. Yeah, because I think people use it sometimes as a, you know, is this destiny, is this fate? And like you say, it's really open to interpretation. But what I find so useful about it and how I feel it should be used for the individual or for relationships is to recognize, like you say, the strengths and the challenges or the tricky trouble spots so that when they and you might you know you might read it or see it but then when it actually manifests and happens between you and that person

you have you have an understanding and it makes it less because you know in relationships everyone can always jump to the perpetrator and the victim and who's right and who's wrong. Whereas that's like, okay, this is this aspect that we have. And this is a challenge that we need to work through rather than this is the end sort of thing. Yeah, definitely. And I would also say like you're naturally drawn to people with whom you have like these matchups. naturally drawn to people with whom you have like these matchups. It's not like you need to go and like search for someone with the perfect chart alignments to you. Like anyone that is a significant relationship in your life is naturally going to have this like compatibility or these

like important alignments. And when you say important alignments, you don't just mean the positive ones, right? Yeah. Like for instance, like if you have a pattern of, um, maybe like there's a period of your life where you keep attracting like people with the same kind of chart set up. And that's important for you to like, maybe learn the lesson with that type of energy. And once you've healed, maybe that pattern you've kept repeating, then it's like, maybe you stop attracting that sign so much. Like I've gone through periods where I'm like only attracting like people with cancer traits. And then it's like, suddenly they just aren't in my life anymore because that's not a pattern I'm engaging in. So there could be, yeah, someone activating those certain parts of your chart,

maybe to reveal something that you need to know about yourself. And it doesn't have to be bad. It could be like, you're attracting a certain type of person to get more confidence in who you are or to learn how to be more independent like that other person. So yeah, depending on where their planets are falling. Yeah. Cause just thinking about that in something I was reading in, in your book about being a Libra rising and that, you know, a potential shadow aspect of that would be that I'm attracted towards people that are quite dominating. Yeah, yeah, with the Aries. Yeah, quite strong headed that will make a lot of decisions for the both of us, which

is obviously very attractive. And I think it resonated with me when I read that but then you know the journey is to kind of embody those principles and characteristics myself yeah like when you learn how to embody that maybe you stop attracting the more negative type traits of that like other person being so domineering and instead you're just getting people that are like equally as confident if you're owning like the way because Libra rising can have issues with being like assertive or being indecisive sometimes so when you get over that it's less likely you're attracting people who are like making all the decisions for you so for anyone listening, would that be, you know, how could they use the big three, let's say their big three, to do a bit of homework on perhaps the patterns that they're calling in in their relationship or something that might be in their relationship they're currently in. It doesn't necessarily have to be negative or positive, but just so they can put this into practice, what can they look at and what should they be looking for? The rising. So the ascendant line is so key in this because it's the descendant line,

which is opposite and the sign that rules your seventh house. That's often like the shadow side that you're not completely owning in yourself and attracting or projecting onto other people. So going back to your chart example, again, like a Libra opposite is Aries. If you're like a Taurus rising, the opposite of that would be Scorpio. So just seeing what sign is opposite and how you might embody the qualities of that sign a bit more. That would be really important. And then also like looking at your moon sign, that's more like, what do you want out of a partner that makes you feel like the most at home and the most secure? The moon is so important with relationships in that way, because it's, it's like, what qualities do I need to feel like safe in the relationship?

So if you're attracting people that don't have those qualities associated with the moon, maybe it's not the best match. And then does the sun sign play a role in this or is that less important than other planets? I don't look at the sun so much for relationships and intimacy. It is important with the timing of relationships, but more so with like compatibility or understanding how you act in relationships. I'm really looking at like moon, Venus and Mars. Okay, well, let's get into Mars. Why is Mars important here? So Mars is, it's important when you're having fights in relationships because it shows your approach to conflict and how you and the other person might approach fights

differently or how they might get upset in a way that maybe you don't understand completely. It also shows like sexual preferences and like, do you like to cuddle more? Are you more experimental? So sexuality and aggression and like conflict styles is represented by Mars. And what was the other one you said you looked out for? Venus. So Venus is what are you attracted to kind of more on the surface level, but also like, what is your, what are your personal tastes? Um, so this can be stuff that isn't necessarily like attracted to someone you're dating. It can be more like, are we aligned on like how we want to decorate our apartment? Or like, do we like the same style of like house to buy? Or do we have the same style

of spending money? Venus is like personal aesthetic style of like spending money and how you handle your finances. And then also just like what you find to be attractive. and then also just like what you find to be attractive. And what about, forgive me if I'm butchering this, but for instance, I think I've got Venus and I think you have my chart there, but Venus aspecting something with Pluto, something going on with Pluto. You have Venus opposite Pluto.

Okay. And let's, okay, we'll get into like what mine means, but what does, you know, that mean when planets are opposite? Like, how does that manifest for the individual? But then how can that also play into relationships? Yeah, so you'll want to look at like, or the Moon, Venus, Mars, how are they aspecting other planets in the chart, particularly the outer planets like Pluto, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, because that will like taint kind of how you express that planet. And also show a little more insight into like how you go about dating and relationships. So with like a planet like Venus aspecting Pluto, it brings in those Pluto qualities of like,

maybe getting kind of like obsessed with people early on when dating or kind of like needing to be like all in or all out with people like no middle ground, like unable to keep things super casual. It's like I'm either really into this person or I'm not interested at all. Or there can be points of like, not totally trusting people or being like a bit paranoid or like are are they who they say they are that type of thing um yeah i have a venus puto aspect too and it's it's tough um whereas like if venus was aspecting neptune in your birth chart um it would be more like building up these elaborate fantasies about people you don't really know and like planning your wedding on the first day, just getting kind

of caught up in things that aren't totally real and in front of you. So that's another challenge that would come with that planet aspect. And then Venus Uranus would be more like, I need more independence and space in my relationships, like long distance often works better for those types of people, or just needing to not follow like dating norms. Like if everyone else is getting married, maybe that person's like, no, I don't feel the need to get married or put a label on this relationship. So understanding those little subtleties. So that could be really useful for someone to know what to watch out for and i guess potential relationship pitfalls or patterns that might be have negative

consequences yeah those are really helpful to know um and i go into this in a chapter in the book because it's like when you have those inner planets like moon venus mars aspecting the outer ones kind of in a difficult way like the venus opposite pluto or venus square saturn that can make dating a bit more challenging for you but recognizing those patterns helps you to not like repeat them and maybe express them in a more productive like healthy way yeah so you have that as well you share yeah I have a lot of difficult ones um Venus Pluto also eighth house planets in general are just like kind of take on the Pluto aspect of like needing to be in control or being slightly obsessive about things um And then I have Saturn

in the seventh house. Having Saturn in the seventh house is a big one with like, just puts a delay on like knowing yourself in relationships and being more confident with dating. So I'll get a lot of clients come to me and be like, Oh my God, I have Saturn in the seventh house. Am I going to be alone forever? And it's it's like no you just have more like tough lessons maybe with dating and understanding um how to like be more of an authority on like what you do and don't want in a partner rather than just like letting the other person decide that for you you also spoke about how historically you would sort of adapt to the person that you were with and then eventually realized that, you know, you, I guess, putting words in your book, in your mouth, that you sort of self-abandoned somewhere along the way. And that's something that I resonated with a lot that I did during my

twenties. Did you equate that to sort of the similarities of the Pisces moon? Yeah. Pisces moon and I have Pisces Venus too. It's such a Pisces or planets aspecting Neptune. It's kind of like, oh my God, I have to go out of my way to like cater to this other person and make sure they're okay. And then just forgetting like whatever you were passionate about, like forgetting your own goals to like, um, blend in or make the other person happy. So again would it be fair to say once you have a sort of baseline of the awareness over these things that it might feel counterintuitive at the beginning because you're having to go against what your natural instinct

or inclination would be for instance if it is to flow caution throw caution to the wind and sort of abandon everything and all the things that you like just to fit in with your new romantic partner's lifestyle to sort of notice that urge but actually take it slow and like you said that the Pluto aspecting Venus to go am i moving 100 miles an hour do i find discomfort in the sort of in between and how can i get used to that space yeah it helps you to be more self-aware of that it's and also like sometimes it's not about correcting those patterns i mean being more self-aware maybe you're in like, you're engaging less in the negative side of them. And you're more like, okay, I need to watch out for planning my wedding on the first day. Like that's something

I shouldn't do anymore. Um, but also like just what, what it helped me with was validating like, okay, I value commitment and being serious with people like this casual dating that everyone else is engaging in is not for me so understanding that um and like owning that part of you yeah yeah and would we be able to have a little look at my chart if you have it yes I have it up I'm gonna turn this into a personal astrology session I actually haven't had a reading in quite some time so oh my god what do you want to look at I don't know when so are you in a relationship right now yes when did you get together? I'm curious of the timing of them. 2021. So summer, August, 2021.

Okay. Just two years ago. So that was Jupiter and Saturn moving through your fifth house. That is a big, the fifth house is a lot about dating and romance and relationships. So big transits, like I was talking about Saturn and Jupiter moving through would activate something more meaningful or just knowing more of what you want out of dating and a relationship. You have like a lot of big relationship transits coming up to like with the eclipses shifting into Libra and Aries this fall and all of 2024,

that's so important to your chart because you're Libra rising and your seventh house of relationships is Aries. So I would kind of expect a big turning point with relationships, like a big event. I don't want to, I don't want to like reveal your first time. You put it first here people. Yeah. What does that,

was that a good thing? No. Yeah's good it can mean like I mean I see this a lot happen when people like get engaged or move in with someone or get married like big pivotal relationship moments when did you say it starts so the first Aries eclipse was actually this past spring in April um but there's going to be three or two more that happen in your seventh house of relationships. So spring of 2024. And then the final one will be spring of 2025. So I'd look out for those time periods as like very, I don't know that eclipse marking a new chapter

in the relationship or something big happening around that time. Interesting. Yeah. And then also what the eclipse is in Libra, on the other hand of that, it's kind of like, you're also entering into a big new phase of your life where it's like, oh my God, I have all these interests I never knew I had, or kind of feeling like there's more major life changes taking place at the moment, or you're on the cusp of that. Because we haven't

gotten that first Libra solar eclipse that will be October 14th um also I see stuff happening with like um speaking writing publishing like that'll come up in summer of 2024 going into 2025 so you have that to look forward to um yeah bigger opportunities there because that'll also be your jupiter return which is in your ninth house in gemini so what's the jupiter return about that happens at the age of like 35 36 and that is the kind of like a reset button like 35 tends to be a trickier year with astrology because it's a 12th house perfection so it's like those 12th house themes of, I'm not sure what's next. I feel kind of a bit isolated or unsure. Um, and then you get 36, which is a first house perfection year and the Jupiter return at the same time. And it's kind of unlocks this new phase of like growth or, um,

optimism and like more positive opportunities coming through. And because yours is in the ninth house, it's like writing, publishing, public speaking, travel. Ooh, that feels very aligned for what I want to do next. Yes. So you mentioned just to give a bit of a recap, 33 is 10th house perfection. Yes. So with perfections, it goes in 12 year cycles. So you start at age zero, like your first year of life is a first house perfection.

And then at age 12, you return to a first house perfection, 24, 36. And like the years in between are like the, like if you're at a 24 is a first house perfection, 25 is a second house, 26 is a third house and so on and so forth. So everyone in that particular age at that same time will have those themes of that house coming up more strongly than usual. Understood. Okay. So generally speaking, you find that people at 35 are going through a bit of a... Yeah. Like what's next? Like there tends to be like a lot of success in the early 30s with the 10th and the 11th house perfections

at 33, 34. And then 35 can be a pulling back time, maybe lower energy or just a bit confused. Like what are my next steps here? And then 36, bam, back in business. Coming back, yeah. 36 is such a powerful year. Cause I also think you get like a nodal return when the North and South nodes return to

where they were in your birth chart. So they'll start returning to Pisces, Virgo. Wait, does everyone know? Oh, so I get that. Yeah. Everyone gets that at age in the mid thirties, like 36, 37 is the nodal return again. The nodal return. And what does that encompass? So that is really important. That also ties into why people may feel like they're having a Saturn return early because at age 27, 28, you also get a nodal opposition. So everyone in their birth chart to back it up has their north node in one sign and their south node in the sign opposite. So in nine year increments, the nodes will return to those two signs. So at age 28, you're 27, 28, you're getting the north node in the same sign as your

south node and vice versa, the south node in the same sign as your north node but then in the mid to late 30s like 36 37 nine years later you get the north node fully returning to the same sign the north node was in in your birth chart and same with the south node and those are always like okay you need to lean it more into what the north node symbolizes for you and your birth chart um because nodes are very much to do with purpose right exactly so it's like are you living true to your purpose at that time yeah because that i'd say in a way at that age 27 or up to was like more painful in many aspects than my i agree my saturn. And it was all to do with, yeah, a lot to do with purpose and what I was supposed to be doing and a lot of, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There's so much that happens in the late twenties. It's like progress, lunar return, nodal opposition, and then the Saturn return. Yeah. It's rough. It's a jungle out there guys yeah so your nodal wait no opposition nodal opposition is 28 the late 20s okay and that does that create friction because they're in essentially like the signs that they're not supposed to be in or what how does that manifest like what does that it's kind of like a closing out of it's it's very similar to the nodal return I see like similar themes come up in both but it it does bring in more themes of like the south node and like sometimes with the south node

it's engaging in like this pattern that isn't serving you so maybe tapping into those south node themes but not so much in like the way that's holding you back, like still developing the South Node themes. Yeah. And to give that a bit of context, I mean, so just to give, share a bit of my personal experience. My South Node is in Virgo. Yeah. North Node Pisces, right? Yes.

Yeah. So, and when I sort of saw that, I was I was like well I'm not Virgo-ish at all and Sydney who works for me was like perfectionist control three and so mass like massively for me what came up was managing that perfectionism and actually trying to channel it in a positive way rather than a detrimental one and so would that be quite a um an obvious thing to happen yeah definitely and also the house themes of where your nodes are located so it has that 12th 6th house axis themes which are really similar to pisces virgo themes as well um so like finding deeper meaning like maybe there was an urge at that time to find deeper meaning in the work that you were doing or developing a more spiritual aspect of your

life and like understanding how like mind body spirit are all connected um so yeah those 12th sixth house and pisces virgo themes all coming up at the same time okay so and then at 36 we get more of a that's the nodal full nodal return yeah yeah and what is that so that will happen for me is there anything that whilst I'm in the running to get there I should be uh focusing on um what okay so you're 34 now right okay so that's the 11th house perfection year. I mean, there's not a you're kind of gearing up to the 36. There's not huge transits currently occurring. But 11th house is a lot about building community, greater audience for your work or connecting with like old friends or forming new friendships. It's a lot about the relationships in

your life and like who is most meaningful to be around. And then you always just still have these background transits. Like even though there's certain ages that are more important for people, like the end of the twenties or 36, 37, you still have like Saturn going through Pisces, which is really important for you because you have like your Pisces North node there and your Pisces moon and it's your sixth house. So that's still going on in the background of like maybe restructuring your health, um, how you take care of your body and also like your work, like how do you have a greater balance with work so that you're not putting so much stress on your body or like burning out okay and you said that saturn's your favorite planet for those listening i mean given giving the podcast that we're on what um

what else can they look out for and how can saturn be like a really positive influence in someone's life because i'm sure as you you know Saturn return and Saturn tends to have quite a lot of negativity around it yeah because it can be a challenging period so what's your sort of take on it if it is your favorite planet I like it how it just forces you to like own up to areas of your life you've been like unwilling to face until then. So I really look at like what houses Saturn transiting in your chart for that three year period. So I mentioned for you, it's your sixth house for other rising signs, it's going to be different. But when it first enters that new house, there's this feeling of, oh my god, I need to get my life together here

a little bit more. I'm really stressed out about this area of my life or things aren't really going how I want them to anymore. And then over the course of that three-year period, you really gain a mastery of that part of your life. And you really like, you understand how to go about it more effectively and build more concrete structures that last for like the next several years.

So I like Saturn in that it's the work is really hard in the moment with Saturn and like at a Saturn return too but it lasts but yeah it lasts for so long and it really gets you to like face certain things and not procrastinate anymore yeah I guess that's why people sort of fear it because if like me sort of dreaded the idea of responsibility or hard work you just were like nah that's what's coming yeah um but like you say once you embody those principles and get through the other side it's so rewarding long term yeah certain people I feel like can deal with Saturn more easily like if you have a lot of Capricorn or Aquarius in your chart, like those signs are ruled by Saturn.

I've got quite a lot of Capricorn going on. Yeah. You have a Saturn in Capricorn. So your Saturn return may have been more constructive when Saturn returns in the sign that it rules, like Capricorn or Aquarius um it might be a little bit easier for you than a Saturn return in like Sagittarius for instance why one Sagittarius is it harder just any sign like I just use Sagittarius as an example but like Saturn performs to the best of its abilities when it's moving through a sign that it rules which are Capricorn Aquarius so any other sign that isn't those it might be a bit more challenging and I lose track but it's where is Saturn at the moment it's in Pisces so how does that what's the sort of advice for those going through their

Saturn return at the moment with Saturn in Pisces I feel like this one has definitely more of like a mental health, creativity, like emotional element to it because those are all Pisces themes. But again, it does matter like what house is ruled by Pisces in your chart. Like, is that a career house for you or a relationship house or like house, first house of yourself? If you're a Pisces rising, that's going to taint the themes that come up at the Saturn return but yeah in general it could be like how can I be more productive with these creative gifts I have or how can I um face my emotions more or build a structure for like having spirituality be a bigger presence in my life like maybe people get way more into like meditating every day or like studying astrology, for instance. Spirituality is a big Pisces theme. Amazing. Well, I feel like we've

covered quite a lot of ground. I hope it's not too overwhelming for people. But like I said, the book is such an amazing way of people starting on their astrology journey so congratulations and putting that out into the world I know thank you books out is this is a big deal yeah yeah I wrote it during my Saturn return did you yes there you go there you go but is there anything else you'd like to add for our audience before we say goodbye is you know a little bit of advice on sort of where to begin in astrology or just kind of anything to be honest yeah where to begin I mean definitely pull up your birth chart and like I have favorite podcasts I listen to I love the astrology podcast such good information there um also apps for the iPhone. I love the app

Chani, C-H-A-N-I. That one's amazing for seeing your chart and understanding it better. Um, my other advice is, I mean, I always leave, like my advice is always like the title of my book, trust your timing. Like that's literally, I don't know if you're having like stress currently going on in your life or you're not sure if you're doing the right thing. Like you are like an astrology reflects that. It's always showing like you're where you're meant to be at that moment in time. I think that's beautiful. And that's the perfect place to end.

So thank you very much, Alice, for joining me. I'm so glad we managed to make this happen. And hopefully next time we'll be meeting in person I might be coming over to New York at some point so I'll let you know I'll let you know um if I come to London yeah please do thank you so much for listening to today's episode of saturn returns if you found this episode useful i would love it if you could share it with a friend or write us a review on apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast because it helps us get in the ears of other like-minded

people and if you want to pick up one of al's books it is called Trust Your Timing that's a little reminder and you can get it from any good retailer and you can find her on Instagram at Stork Alice. Again thank you so much for listening and remember you are not alone. Goodbye.