Saturn Returns with Caggie - Reality TV, Tragedy, and Resilience: Dr. Alex George on Mental Health, Sobriety, and ADHD

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

TRIGGER WARNING - this episode discusses themes around suicide In this deeply moving and powerful episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie sits down with Dr. Alex George—British doctor, author, and prominent mental health advocate—to discuss the life-changing moments that shaped his mission to transform mental health awareness. Dr. Alex opens up about his decision to enter the spotlight on Love Island and how the reality show unexpectedly propelled him into the public eye, raising crucial awareness around mental health. He reflects on the highs and lows of his time on the show and how it ultimately became a platform for a much bigger purpose. In an emotional conversation, Dr. Alex shares the devastating impact of his younger brother’s death by suicide and how it redefined his life’s path. He bravely discusses the pain of losing a loved one and how it has fueled his relentless drive to break the stigma around mental health, especially for men. Together, Caggie and Dr. Alex explore: His decision to join Love Island and the unexpected impact it had on his career The profound grief of losing his brother and how it led him to become a mental health advocate His personal struggles with ADHD, sobriety, and how he manages both without alcohol The need for gender-specific mental health support and the challenges men face in opening up Addressing toxic masculinity and the importance of creating new models of masculinity that embrace vulnerability and emotional expression Dr. Alex also shares his vision for Mettel, a mental health app for men, and the importance of meditation, exercise, and a balanced lifestyle in his journey toward well-being. This episode is an honest and heart-opening conversation that shines a light on the often-overlooked struggles men face when it comes to mental health. It’s a reminder that vulnerability is strength and that healing is possible, even in the face of profound loss. Tune in for an inspiring episode that explores resilience, recovery, and redefining masculinity in today’s world. — We’re so excited to be partnering with WoodWick this season. Check out their timeless, elegant collection that’s bursting with tranquillity here. Our community Substack, “You are not alone”, has now launched! This space is dedicated to deep, honest conversations around the struggles we all face—because no one should feel alone on their journey. Whether you’re navigating personal challenges or seeking inspiration in your creative pursuits, join the community on Substack here. Follow or subscribe to “Saturn Returns” for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn’s return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay update on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok. Order the Saturn Returns Book here.

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And in today's episode I'm joined by the lovely Dr Alex George. I'm sure many of you are familiar with Dr Alex George's work and perhaps when he first burst onto the scene in Love Island and in this conversation we discuss the impact of reality TV and mental health. Obviously he and I share that sort of beginning from reality TV that then has led us on to very unique paths. But I am so inspired by his work, he speaks so eloquently about very delicate and important subjects and in this conversation we get into the theme of grief. Many of you will know that he very sadly lost his

brother to suicide and he talks about that in this episode so just as a trigger warning for anyone that has experienced something similar and also the different types of grief that we experience. He also talks a lot about mental health as he is a mental health ambassador and how we need to raise more awareness about it and the sort of differences between men and women and the way that we facilitate these conversations and how that still requires a lot of work. The odd thing about this country in the UK, more so probably than the rest of Europe, is that we are so afraid and awkward to talk about like death, but like death is what makes

life so incredible. Like if you live forever and everything was guaranteed and everything was you know like the Truman Show, life wouldn't be what it is. It's magical because you only have so much time. You know, like time is the one thing we spend that we never get back. It's like crazy to think about it, like how big the universe is to sizes we can't comprehend and how much time has passed that we don't even understand. We're alive for like that long. It's like a deflection from the baseline and back of how long your life is.

It's just so short. That's what a deflection from the baseline and back of how long your life is. It's just so short. That's what is amazing about life. One thing that I didn't expect this conversation in terms of directions was we ended up talking about ADHD quite a lot, which really, really fascinated me. For those that might feel they have it, which I 100% do, and just even when I was listening back doing the edit to this and I thought oh god I remember afterwards thinking I'm going to go and see if I have it and then of course I've got distracted and I haven't which indicates that I probably have it. Not that it really matters but apparently you know it's a sort of clarifying thing to

be like okay that explains why my brain is the way that it is. But the way he gets into it and explains it is really really interesting, I've never heard it spoken about in that kind of way so I think you'll find that particularly interesting. And also, I think he's such a great role model for redefining masculinity and being such an inspiration to the youth of today. And so I hope you enjoy this. I love listening back and I loved having this conversation and I think he's just such a gem of a human being. So enjoy. And astrology like the healthy masculine we find out through looking at our Mars side in our charts. Mars is all about our action and how we have righteous action, where we have actual righteous will or free will. And then I think that what's happened in modern societies that has been subdued a little bit, because Mars can be quite assertive

and it can be quite aggressive because it's represented by Aries and Scorpio. So people interpret that as being, you know, a bit fiery and a bit intense and things like that. And I think that people maybe in history have used that to their own advantage in order to be able to conquer what they needed to conquer, including the feminine. But I think like the healthy masculine, ultimately, he needs a Venus energy.

There's no masculine energy. There's no yang energy without feminine energy, without the yin energy. It doesn't exist. We need a more healthy Mars energy in people's charts in order for them to be able to produce healthy masculine energy. So what is that? Like the pure healthy masculine energy is protective, protective over its own, protective over its goals. It is assertive. It knows what it wants. It has a will and it has no obstacles when it comes to its role. It will conquer anything that it has to conquer. It's not oppressive. It's not emasculated because it's so sure of its own masculinity that it's never emasculated by a feminine being strong or like a Venus energy being strong. It doesn't really care about that. It thinks it's cute and it wants to contain it and wants to give to it.

And then the last part of the masculine energy is that it's very nurturing ultimately, because it represents the blood in Ayurveda. Mars represents your blood energy, it represents a part of your life force, it represents your root chakra, so it represents your stability in your life. My name is Alex George. I grew up in West Wales, in the countryside, which is a long way away. I've lost a lot of the accent.

Went to uni at Exeter and Plymouth doing medicine. So I studied at medical school. Came to London actually in 2014, 15. Became a doctor. Went on a little show called Love Island, which people know from years ago. And then since then, I guess, you know, had all these followers.

So I went back to Lewisham Hospital, worked throughout the pandemic. And I guess my passion's always been, it's always really been about health, but particularly mental health stuff. So I had some struggles at university myself. I also just feel like we don't talk about the positive sides of mental health tours, like mental fitness and things. So that was a big thing for me. And yeah, I just worked throughout the pandemic, brought content to different places. I've done, you know, I've written some books, got some documentaries and stuff that I've done, but I just love I love what I do. I'm very fortunate.

There's lots of challenges. We were in a weird world, aren't we? Like this kind of creating of content and slash influencing slash whatever we do. And because there's no set path because it's all strange it's all weird but then the world is weird so you just kind of when you learn to accept that you just roll with it and do what you can and yeah I try and get up each day do my best and try and enjoy as much as I can and yeah I guess my life's had very strange turns of you know as appointed youth mental

health a bastard during the pandemic because I was campaigning about like change that should be made that a lot of that came off the back as some people as appointed youth mental health bastard during the pandemic, because I was campaigning about like change that should be made. A lot of that came off the back, as some people know, and some people don't. My brother dying from suicide. So that was a big thing for me in terms of like,

right, I've got to do something here. And the whole role, the whole being asked to be this volunteer, basically came off the back of that. And yeah, I feel like I've done some positive things.'s more I would like to do but yeah I feel very lucky I kind of say we've all had ups and downs in life but I'm here I'm doing my best and I think it's fantastic there are so many things that I want to touch on with you today in terms of the mental health conversation and reality TV. What made you do that show?

It's a funny story because really, I mean, I had no intention to go on. It was nothing against the show actually. I watched the series before. I think it was almost like January time or maybe even February. I matched this girl on Bumble and I was single, I was dating and she was turned out to be an ITV producer for Love Island. Seriously, it was like... Is that how it came about? Yeah, it was like, I think you'd be great for Love Island. I was like, what?

So she was on Bumble casting for Love Island? I mean, I wouldn't put it past them. I mean, they cast everywhere. They do cast everywhere, I think, don't they? I do think that, but for all reality TV, they do just kind of cast everywhere, don't they? And that's actually a great way of doing it for a show like that. Yeah, of course. So did you go on a date with her?

No, we just spoke and like she, I think she immediately was like, just so you know, I'm a producer. She's very professional about it. I think she was just kind of like, oh, like this is my personal account, but I actually think you'd be great. And I was like, haha, this is a joke. And I basically just didn't really want to have a call about it at first. And she said, just, you know, come on, have a chat.

I went into work in A&E in Lewisham and one of my consultants, uh, and I said to her, look, I've had this conversation and I expected her to be like, Oh, don't do that. That's crazy. She was like, Oh my God, you've got to do the interview. I literally loved that show. And I was like, okay, fine. So I listened to it. I went to the interview.

Yeah, it literally was. I went to the interview, right? Turned up on the, it was on a Friday afternoon, turn up the interview, you go into this lobby in the old ITV studios. I went in, there's about 20 guys in there and everyone was very different to me. Like no judgment in either direction,

but we were all very, I was very different to I think most of them. They were quite like, quite gym, like quite big guys, like strong tans. There's pale me who was like just turned up going to the pub with my mate, like, you know, finished A&E or whatever. And anyway, I went up and I was one of the last people to be interviewed that day. And anyway, everyone was in there for about 10, 20 minutes. I went in, I was in there for an hour.

I was chatting away to them. I looked around, I thought all these guys, I'm not going to get on there. I'm not that fast anyway, whatever. Chat to to them. I looked around, I thought, all these guys, I'm not gonna get on there, I'm not that fussed anyway, whatever, chatted to them about all sorts of stuff, like everything, I had them laughing a bit, and we were having a good time, I said, all right, see you later, it was a lovely experience, good to meet you, and then on Monday,

I was cycling home, or the Tuesday, something like that, I was cycling home from work, and my phone started going off, I thought, that's strange, pulled over, answered the phone, it was like one of the execs being like, we really wanna have a call with you, like really want you to come on, I was like, answered the phone. It was like one of the execs being like, we really want to have a call with you, like really like want you to come on. I was like, Oh my God. And just from then it happened. They said, we want you to like, I can't remember. They, I think pretty sure they did say, we want you to start kind of thing. Like you'll be at the start. I was just like, didn't want to do

it. You didn't want to do it. Well, I didn't really, I think as I was 26, nearly 27. I didn't want to particularly. The reason that I did do it in the end was because basically I lost a friend of mine at university to leukemia and she was a wonderful person, like really, really amazing person called Freya Barlow and she had leukemia and she went through chemo and had all this treatment, had bone marrow transplant and we thought she was getting better.

And then she went relapsed again and yeah, just, it was awful. Like passed away far too young. Um, but she said to me in the days before she passed away, she was like, I can't live my life further. I'm like, got my whole life. I feel ahead of me, but I have to just give up on it now, which is crazy. It's like a 20, 21 year old to be like, she's there like ready to start living her life and it's like, stop, she has no choice, just has to accept it.

And she was like, please go and like live life and like do different things, try different things. Don't be too rigid. Just like enjoy life. And I kind of had that in my ears. I don't think you mean love Island, but I was kind of like, God. Um, and I've all, I dunno, I've always had this fear of regret. I really don't want to regret, not just kind of like, oh God. Um, and I've all had, I don't know, I've always had this fear of regret. I really don't want to regret, not just kind of living life and trying to,

not in that kind of YOLO mentality. I just mean being like taking opportunity, enjoying moments, being present, be where your feet are, all that kind of stuff and, and just take chances. So I was like, Oh, just, you know what? Let's just, let's go for this. Like what's the worst that can happen? So I thought I'll be on there, you know what, let's just, let's go for this. Like, what's the worst that can happen? So I thought I'll be on there for two weeks. And then it wasn't two weeks. It was like the whole show. And it was obviously a huge difference. I didn't expect people to say,

Oh, do you go on there with a game plan to like get followers? I, I literally, I can hand on heart tell you, I thought I'd be on there two weeks and back in A&E. I didn't even think about my social media going in there. I just gave my Instagram account to my best mate and said I'll just keep an eye on it or whatever I had no plan just went in and just see what happened And how did it impact your mental health being on a show like that? You are away from all family and friends in a place You don't know people you don't know and you've got no ability to talk to people from anyone you knew before Basically for eight or nine weeks. It's gonna be quite quite tough there'll be highs and lows and I think that's

what it was it was like big highs big lows but it was it was a genuinely an unbelievable experience you look at it this way like how many people can say that they've done that not many you know what I mean it's it's harder there's a joke the producers are this harder to get into Love Island that is Harvard but the number of people applying now these days to try and get into Lovevine versus like, yeah. I mean, I know it's a bit of a joke. Don't fact check me on that people, but it's just kind of a funny thought.

And you just think, you know what, this is just an experience. It's like, let's roll with it. But yeah, it was tough. It was definitely tough. Being away from family and friends was hard. You're literally playing out the early stages of dating in front of everyone. And my dating was a kind of car crash mostly. So it was great television. That's why I was there for so long, clearly. But I think I always felt

very different in what I wanted from partner. And I think I was very different to people. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm the odd one out really, and that's fine. But I think I was very different to people. That isn't always easy when you're trying to connect. But funny enough, I did actually connect with people so well. I made some great friends on that show and in that time I'm not saying I hang out with people from the show now because years go by like I live a very different life to most people not just in the love of that most people would be like your life is pretty weird and what you do all the time and that's fine but that time of life was a really interesting part of

it and without that show I wouldn't I wouldn't you know we've I got well I got 80 million quid towards mental health support teams at school we've got this national brand new national rollout of well hopefully if we can finally get the funding the early support helps we certainly got the pilot ones that's like a brand new initiative for mental health like I wouldn't I wouldn't have been able to be involved this might have happened anyway but I certainly wouldn't be a part of it, you know, and you've mentioned already about the brother Yeah, and your friend that must have been incredibly tough at such a young age Would you be able to share a little bit about that?

I think grief is hard at any age and stage and there's lots of forms of grief We think of death, but of course, grief also means like passing of time. Grief can also be over situations, relationships, pets. It's often when we think of grief is when a chapter closes and some of those chapters are due to close, other ones aren't. And I think when you lose someone who was 19, he was at a place at medical school

who had his whole life ahead of him, that's very unnatural. Like I've lost grandparents and that's awful and painful and it's still loss. And you know, I've heard people describing and saying, it doesn't matter how old your mother is when they pass away, they're still your mother. You know what I mean?

It's still, you know, and I get that, but there's still like a natural order to life. But when that order isn't correct, like with Freya for example, and with Ller, that is then very difficult. What was your brothers name? Lleir so it's L-L-Y-R it's a Welsh name and it means God of the sea I've actually got his tattoo which is that's the way for God of the sea and then I've got his name which actually that was pulled from his school book at ten years old that was his handwriting so and I chose his name

there's 10 years and four days between us so I chose his name which is funny because it's like Alex, Elliot and Lleir. Why did you choose that? My parents like choose a Welsh name and I was like okay I'll choose a Welsh name then I went for a proper Welsh name so he loved it though he liked it. When he was growing up he was like you chose chose a difficult name, but then he grew into it and liked it. And did you know that he was struggling at all? Did he speak about stuff? I mean, he was a 19 year old in the middle of lockdown and I think that's difficult and it's very hard to judge when people like what level is the struggling is very difficult. I think people don't say enough. I think people should talk more when they're in difficult spots. Certainly didn't know he was in the place he was

in. And I think part of that as a family, you always carry like an element of responsibility. Kind of the pizza slice analogy is quite a good way of looking at it. Like everyone that was involved in his life will feel likely they may not But most of them will feel they take a piece of that Responsibility if you ask my parents they'll say it's 98 percent our fault Which is obviously not true, but when you look at from an objective way You're like, okay, there's bits that we can all take from this and that's life And that's the most difficult thing with this kind of situation is that there's no one's gonna give you an answer

You can't come and tell you canny even say no, it wasn't your fault. You know, but you have to be able to have some ability to rationalize it. Otherwise you just ruin your life. Your whole life is lost to that. But it's been very hard. I only look back now and realize how rocky I'd been for a good couple of years, up until probably about six months to six months a year ago, you know, I don't know how I did it really. I look back and think there's been some real dark times, difficult times and living it out in the public eye has been very difficult. Well also with the work that you do right because you have been so influential in helping people in this space but then to be going through it.

Well every time I you know every time and it's fine we're talking about it but every time that I've ever talked about it every time I campaign every time I use a name talking about him passing away it's like a knife back into me while I'm trying to like make progress it's always like you're kind of cutting you're harming yourself while trying to help others that is basically what it is and I know what a you know I'm not expecting a violin or pity from it it's's just, it is the path I've chosen, but it is, it's the catch 22. Like the more progress I make and the more noise I make,

the more I work in this, the more I'm, you know, picking at a wound. Are you comfortable talking about your brother? Yeah, I think it's something that, you know, I've spoken about so much now. And in many ways, I guess it's kind of therapy. Now the basis of therapy is that you expose and you process something in a way that makes sense to your brain or you're able to kind of deal with it. It's a bit more

complex than that because of course you know you're trying to not just expose yourself to not have as big an emotional trigger or response for it but you're trying to like make sense of what's happened but in many ways it's kind of been exposure therapy. It's like when you many ways it's kind of been exposure therapy it's like when you look at a picture that of a loved one that's passed and it like really triggers you but the more you look at that picture you very rarely end up at the same heights of kind of agitation or being as upset because your brain learns to accept what is and then the other part is trying to make sense of some of it but yeah it's not it's not easy to talk about and you know it

in many ways like a lot of the work and then the campaigning, as much as I push forward and I try and, when I'm talking in number 10 Downing Street or I'm at an activist meeting or whether I'm, it's talking on a television set or whatever about it, it is painful and that's kind of the catch 22 of what I do. To help, I have to accept picking as painful scab. But I know that the outcome is,

the potential legacy and outcome for him is huge. You know, if anything, you know, yes, he's passed away, but there is life in him in the sense that if we can help other young people and prevent, you know, other families. My family will say, there's someone out there, there's people out there that have it worse and have, it's not about trauma comparing, it's not helpful,

but it's always important to remember, this is our experience, but other people have got their own experiences, but you really wouldn't wish it on a family. And in terms of talking about it a lot for the work that you do, what about talking about it at home? Yeah, I mean, we're getting better as a family,

talking about it, I think different members of the family talk more and talk less. People process things in their own way and at their own time. I think that's the important thing with grief is that although there are stages of grief in theory, the way that people move through those stages and get to the eventual point of acceptance differs from one person to the next and you can go backwards, you can go from a stage where you're like moving forward, you know, like the depression stage and you're ready to move on to the next one but then something knocks you back and I think probably learning to be like kind of okay with that is important and also

different days, some days you feel stronger, other times you don't. But I think in reality, everyone experiences, the odd thing about this country in the UK, more so probably than the rest of Europe, is that we are so afraid and awkward to talk about like death, but like that's part of life. And it is fundamentally outside of, I'm not talking about my brother's situation,

outside of all that, death is what makes life so incredible. Like if you live forever and everything was guaranteed and everything was, you know, like the Truman show, it wouldn't, life wouldn't be what it is. It's magical because you only have so much time. You know, like time is the one thing we spend that we never get back. And there's like a preciousness to that. And I think that's where some of my fear of wasted time or regrets is so big, is because I just feel very like, omni aware that there is only this like, short period of time. It's like crazy if you think about it, like how big the universe is,

to sizes we can't comprehend and how much time has passed that we don't even understand. We're alive like that long. It's like a deflection from the baseline and back of how long your life is. It's just so short. That's what is amazing about life. And you've got to accept that sometime your time will come to an end,

but also probably you're gonna experience losing loved ones as well. And I think the better we get at talking about grief and learning to just be a bit more open, probably when times come where you lose someone maybe we'll deal with it better. Aside from the obvious that it's a big heavy topic why do you think we find it so hard to talk about and why do you think we avoid it especially as Brits like you say?

Well I mean avoidance is something that a lot of humans do for a lot of different situations. If I might, one of the best things I've ever learned from therapy is avoid the avoidance is like the number one rule of therapy. Avoid the avoidance. And if anytime you move, find yourself moving away from something, ask yourself why, why am I avoiding this? Why am I not engaging with this? And if you're doing it for the avoidance of pain you should be moving towards it. Not in any kind of sadistic sense but in if you're moving away because you find that memory difficult why? Let's move towards it, let's sit with it, let's expose ourselves to it so that we can move past it and if it's a conversation you find hard why avoid that

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There is moving away like alcohol is avoidance for a lot of people, drugs, overworking, over exercising, all these different ways that we find just to not sit with what is, you know, so many people in this country are lonely. And what is a lot of people's way of avoiding loneliness? Alcohol and things like that. I mean, I've been there hands up, like you're not even aware that you're doing it. What do people say when you suggest like, I wonder what it's like to not drink? They go, oh, it'll be boring. By boring, they mean lonely. That's what we mean, right? We're afraid of being alone or lonely. If your life is boring not drinking, it means that we need to work on making a more enjoyable interesting life.

Don't we? Isn't that the truth? Or if we feel that we lack connection, we don't drink, we need to find other ways to connect. And so they avoid the avoidance, but it's huge. And when it comes to death, I think we avoid it because it's not nice. You think I don't, well, I want to be here forever. But the problem is, is when we live life as if we're here forever, we don't live it truly. I think we don't then give it everything. You know, there's no practice run. There's no like rerun of this. It's like one shot. And I don't mean it as I'm like, oh, yeah, go maximum productivity. I mean, like sitting on a Sunday night, put a film on, relax, but be where your feet are, be where you are and be immersed. Whatever you're doing, be there. And I'm not

saying this as someone who's got it all cracked. One of the biggest challenges I have is I often because of that, think about the future and like what am I doing? Am I, you know, should I be working towards this? So it's something I actively have to check myself worth. So ironically, even though it's one of the biggest things I'm like focused on it's also oddly a weakness of mine what are those practices what do they look like because like you say it's the trickery of the mind that it's not like we're going oh I want to avoid that feeling therefore I'm going to go and drink or numb out or whatever it might be. We convince ourselves that that's the right thing to do.

Do you know what I mean? So. Yeah, so for example, a good question to ask yourself is like, in what I'm doing, am I moving towards something or away from something and in my decision? And in many ways, I think I've been trying to do this for a good number of years, but this was actually an idea brought by Dr.

Ian Jordan, who's a psychiatrist and he came on my podcast, Stompcast, which obviously we went for a walk on. And I love this way of putting it, this idea of like, are you avoiding something right now by moving away from it or towards it? And like a good example would be if you're going to drink alcohol on a Saturday night, are you drinking alcohol? Cause you're moving towards connection and being socializing and it's just like a bit of fun and you just enjoy having a drink or two or are you drinking to move away from loneliness, to move away from pain and you're

looking for numbness. So like when I was at uni, I was doing a lot of like the connecting part of it. It was just there to connect with others. And then it became something else. And then when you know, my brother passed away, it was always about numbness. It was not about connection is about numbness same tool different reason And so I think that can be really helpful and then in terms of like grounding yourself I think when you find yourself moving into the future and you start getting anxious or you're starting becoming like self having a lot of self doubt and you're just Not in the present simple things that just put both feet on your ground

I'd be like where am I right now just feel feel the floor under your feet, feel the seat where you're sitting, you know notice things, simple technique you can use as the five senses. You look around the room, name five things that you can see, four things you can feel and then you go through your senses of smell, scent and taste, like even just having a drink of your coffee or tea and even those tricks are good ways to bring yourself back in the room. And then gratitude is probably the other biggest thing. Oddly, gratitude is amazing at just grounding you. Like if you're thinking, oh gosh should I have gone out tonight, maybe everyone's having fun. What are you

grateful for right now? I'm sat here on the couch with Rolo, my dog, you know I'm comfortable, you know I've got a great film on, I'm gonna get up tomorrow morning, go for a run. As soon as you start doing these gratitude things, your brain starts honing into what it has rather than what it doesn't have. In terms of the sobriety piece, when did you realize that you were using alcohol as a kind of coping strategy?

Yeah, I mean, so I'm 33 and I grew up in West Wales and I think, you know, rugby culture and drinking was a big part of that growing up. And when do you need med school is like, like people drink so much or they used to drink certainly a lot of med school, just a big part of that uni life, I guess, and then throughout working life and twenties and just drinking quite, drinking quite a lot, but probably, you know, you think it's quite a normal amount in society.

So drinking like two nights a week, you know, having a good couple of drinks, sometimes three. And I think the reason changed as I got older. I think the reason was about like, yeah, the numbing part of it. And I think particularly after my brother died to like three years ago, but also actually in something I really realized

was that I probably was kind of micro using it to kind of manage ADHD as well. I was diagnosed ADHD about two years ago and without realizing it realizing I was probably trying to round the edges of that. To just bring everything down. I mean it oddly alcohol is it's kind of good at some parts of numbing the ADHD but also reduces your inhibition which in an impulsive person ADHD is not ideal. I just think well just, just like louder, like really like louder, just making like even silly things like I would just like book a holiday and stuff like that. And I'm like, really shouldn't have done that or buy something silly.

I'm like, why have I done that? Just like just being impulsive or like ending up like I was supposed to have like two drinks. I've ended up on a whole night out, which I know a lot of people relate to anyway that often happens, right? But it just affected everything. And then I would be so much more anxious the next day in the next few days because when you start playing with your dopamine as a one of your neurotransmitters especially some with ADHD you can really affect things like anxiety and your mood. I've never heard about that connection before. So around fit around up to it's between 40 and 50 percent of all people with ADHD have a diagnosable alcohol use disorder so the how how they use alcohol is disordered

I mean what does that really mean it usually means they're using it often without realizing just to manage their ADHD particularly in things like intense social situations like nights out in pubs and things like that often not realizing I think a huge amount of the general population Do you hear a lot of people say about social anxiety? I'll be but if I don't have a drink I don't want to be in the pub Then you're actually using it to kind of manage yourself through a situation It's a very very common and rates of addiction and stuff in ADHD are very very high

You know, you've got a yeah alcohol plays the dopamine, but it crashes it the next few days as well So I think those two things for me. I just realized, I was like, I don't think alcohol is helpful in ADHD. I think there's some people that would watch this or listen to this and say, disagree with you. I've got ADHD and it's fine and that's cool. But in the vast majority of cases, it's not helpful. It's because it makes the bad side of ADHD worse, like impulsivity, for example. But then it makes the good sides of ADHD worse, like impulsivity for example,

but then it makes the good sides of ADHD worse. So things like the creativity, the kind of ability to kind of like flip between different ideas, the hyper focus, it ruins all those things. But then it also, you know, brings out the bits that you don't want, like the impulsivity and so on. So yeah, alcohol and ADHD doesn't really mix. You know brings out the bits that you don't want like the impulsivity and and so on so

Yeah, alcohol and ADHD doesn't really mix And also I was just realizing it was just like this alcohol is not helping me I was like 20 stone overweight. I was eating a lot because I was drinking a lot wasn't exercising I started feeling quite stuck. I did the grief was just being locked in and so I just stopped drinking I think it was the 4th of December 2022 And so I just stopped drinking. I think it was the 4th of December, 2022. And I didn't drink at all throughout 2023 and I haven't drunk up to now. And I just not really, I don't count anymore.

After I did, I think the four or five months, I was like, I'll do the year. And then once I do the year, I'm not gonna count because then it becomes like a prison almost in itself. Pressure as well, yeah. Yeah, which is fine. People that do count it, and I probably, I will probably celebrate if I hit two years, I'll count it, and I probably, I will probably celebrate,

if I hit two years, I'll celebrate it, but I'm not counting day by day. For me, like my life is so much better not drinking. I'm happier, I'm calmer, I'm more productive. I've always been a little bit hyper-productive as part of me, but I'm even more productive in a way that I enjoy, not kind of dragging myself through. I have more money as well. It's great.

I don't spend as much like alcohol is really expensive. So tell me about the ADHD. Cause how did that? How did you discover that you had that? And what does that look like? I'd always thought that I, I've always felt different growing up. I've always been different. I've had hyper-focused. I've always been at school, like found it hard to engage in classes and stuff, but I've always been someone been something just get stuff really quickly and like I've been able to apply myself But found the traditional academic setting difficult throughout university I was lucky because the way we did med school in our universe very modern way of doing it wasn't like sit-down lectures

A lot of it was online all the practical stuff was in person and for what someone with ADHD When you're interested in something, that's amazing. And I really like took off at uni in many ways. I think I just was, I just loved medicine. I loved health and it was in this kind of dopamine rich environment. And I just, yeah, I did really well. Like I did well at med school, but I think where it came up for me and was like more problematic, it's probably just my own general life outside of work and stuff and you know for example I was like I want to ride motorbikes or then I do the test as far as I can and I want to buy three bikes you know and I didn't buy three bikes but I wanted

to buy three bikes and it's like that kind of thing and like why am I like this why am I so impulsive also why does my mood swing between this and that really quickly and do you find it hard to focus on one project at a time? Yeah, I mean, if you look at my life, I've got like 10 different tabs, so more than that. You just see my confusion. It's got like the reason I'm asking so much is and especially to do with the alcohol thing is I feel like I am like that and I really struggle

with things that I think people would find quite straightforward. Yeah, for example, I could I have sat in front of the prime minister and debated why we need to fund mental health funding and brought facts out that my Brain has just got all of these things in there because it's something I'm interested in I'll retain everything about it, but then I can't organize my own like baked beans in the cupboard I can't sort like my wardrobe like certain tasks become people are like, how can you do these things? I can do the big things. Yeah, exactly. And that's the challenge.

I mean, I can, there's a good example. So I, when I worked on, when I started as a doctor, I worked on a general medical ward, which is very common to do. And you had like 30 patients in the ward. I would remember like 10 of the blood results for like all 30 patients for like days in a row, like maybe not every single One but a lot of them because my brain would just want and these are like very random numbers at five point four hundred And thirty two and I just would remember that

Because my brain was locked in but at the same time I can't remember my mobile number It's taking me two years to learn my new mobile number now and I can't remember any of my family's birthdays other than Like clear is because there's four days after mine but I struggle to remember birthdays I really struggle but I can remember things if I'm if my brain decides it's going to lock in on something if it's interested in but oddly I think it's more with me it's like can it get it somewhere else so because I know I can pick up my mobile I can get my mobile phone number I don't know I tried to work it out I think it's because my brain knows it's in my pocket. But if I want to be able to, yeah, but like whereas like remembering all that stuff just seems to stick. It's so weird.

Because I have that with them. If I'm driving around London, I'm like, I'll use Google maps for everything. Even a route that I should know pretty well. Sometimes my boyfriend would be like, why do you need Google Maps? Sometimes my brain's like, I don't want to. And like the map where everything is. So I like generally, I think within zone three, I can get anywhere. I could be a cab driver, I think. I wouldn't be able to tell you that road, but I could take you anywhere.

Because my brain loves it. My whole life. My brain loves that. But then other things, yeah, I'll have, I'll have similar examples with my brain. I'm like, I can't remember that. I can't like, what, like you, you, how many people, I'll have similar examples with my brain. I'm like, I can't remember that. I can't like, what, like you, how many people, people will be like, it's ridiculous. How can you not remember your number? It's not from lack of trying. Then I have this embarrassing thing where I always say to like, it's usually

like, you know, you put your name down for like a reservation at a table or something. I'm like, Oh, let me check quickly. I've got a new number. I haven't, it's been like two years. You know, it's embarrassing, isn't it? Luckily I've had the same number since I've had a phone. So I actually do know. I think I've got it now. I'm not gonna recite it now, I just have a number. I've got it now, I've finally cracked it

because it has become so irritating. I've forced myself to learn it. And what do you do now to manage the ADHD? So I've been prescribed medication that I use sometimes. So it's Ritalin, which is a short acting medication and just helps me really focus in when I'm doing something. I think the fact that I don't drink now, I'm able just to like level my kind of dopamine, I guess probably a lot better. I'm a lot calmer and therefore I can much better

maintaining good habits. I think with ADHD it can be like all or nothing, whereas I find now much better, like I've never been more consistent with like exercise. But in terms of managing it, other things like meditation is huge, like it's absolutely massive in terms of helping it. Do you have to watch your caffeine intake? Caffeine, so a lot of people are either caffeine sensitive or insensitive to ADHD, so like some people drink caffeine or drink coffee or whatever and have caffeine and they find that ADHD gets better other people get it gets worse for me if I drink coffee it makes it better. Why would it be different? So caffeine has like a similar effect

similar caffeine has a similar effect to almost like Ritalin in a sense that it's a stimulant. So the way that methylphenidate and other short acting stimulant medications work is that they stimulate the frontal part of your brain that is underactive in ADHD. So basically it's boosting your dopamine levels to what would be a normal level so you have a normal experience and by boosting the dopamine levels you're not seeking those kind of dopamine hits. So the problem is if you think of it this way if you've got a brain that's depleted of dopamine the brain is starved of dopamine it wants dopamine so it wants it from chocolate it wants it from a beer it wants it from exercise it wants it from you know a relationship or you know an interaction

or a risk or gambling it's like once these hits And it doesn't matter if it's good or bad. It'll always come, yeah, that's the problem. So it'll come up and down, up and down. So what we're doing is raising the dopamine. So you don't need to be on the hunt. You can chill out. You don't need to be on the hunt for dopamine. That's one way you can do it.

Other ways you can do it, and it depends often on the severity of ADHD as well, is by doing other things like meditating is amazing. Exercise is absolutely incredible for ADHD, ice baths are brilliant as well, anything that gives you a long tail of dopamine, so rises your dopamine and lets it drift down slowly, like exercise for example,

all of those things are brilliant for doing that, you know, just kind of giving you a calm level of dopamine, not a feeling you go for a run, you come back, and for hours you Just feel elated. Yeah, that's just like a hit of yeah endorphins, but it was also that like boost of dopamine as well So it's exercise a huge one for your mental health huge huge I think I think it's probably for a lot of people as well. I think to tap into things running has been Like a revolutionary thing for me. I've always like been sporty, I've always played rugby, played

football, but I've never been a runner. There's something about running that for me nothing has ever matched in terms of like when you hit that kind of runner's high it's just phenomenal. Yeah anyone with ADHD listening honestly or they think they have ADHD first of all get diagnosed regardless of whether you want meds or not or or whether you think I need medication. It's about understanding. You learn so much about yourself. Honestly, for me, it was like a light switch went on and I could suddenly see everything in my life with clarity. I understood my entire life. By having the diagnosis or because... By having the diagnosis, because I understood. I was like, oh my God, this is why I am as I am. And I've been like this my entire life and I never understood it. It's very horrible when you feel

very different to people, I think. When you feel like there's like an average and you're like stood outside the room I feel like that and it's tough isn't it when you're like that and I looked through my family my granddad Clearly had ADHD I can see oh my gosh He was a businessman who like moved from England to South Africa and then to another countries around the world doing he was chasing Dopamine all of his life. My dad definitely has ADHD. I don't think any of my family, not that I know of, do. And so it feels like I'm a squiggle in a family of straight lads. Yeah, don't forget though, it doesn't always work like that way that you can track it through sometimes. It's not as genetic in that sense. But also the other key thing is that if you're a woman it's very likely that your ADHD will be not as overtly obvious in the way we think

of it and this is why because there's different kinds of ADHD so you've got hyperactive combined and inattentive so hyperactive is like the young boy bouncing around the room jumping around them that's the typical view but actually only about 10% of cases appear like that. So think of the name, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and yet very few people are actually hyperactive. You've then got your inattentive,

which tends to be like your internal ADHD. So a lot of it's in your mind, it's not external, they're not bouncing around, they're not fidgety, but there's like flight of thoughts and- Flight of thoughts. Like lots of thinking, like brain, the inward stuff. Overactive mind. Yeah.

Like, and, and it's hard to explain, uh, the inattentive, but like, for example, you know, lack of ability to like focus on things, to initiate tasks. People struggle with quite big shifts in their emotion and stuff. Like if you think of dopamine, it's not just a reward hormone. It's also one of your mood hormones. So when it's up and down, your mood stuff like that. If you think of dopamine, it's not just a reward hormone, it's also one of your mood hormones. So when it's up and down, your mood goes with that. If I feel really got high dopamine here, I feel great, I feel good. When it's low, I don't feel good. No one feels good when the dopamine is low. Your brain is then wanting

it. So the differences, I think a lot of it is this very internalized. So a lot of it's inside your own mind. It's not as seen. And then you've got this combined type, which is a bit of mix of, it basically means a mix of everything, which is quite a lot of people. But because a lot of women are actually inattentive, they don't get diagnosed. So-

Why is that that they are inattentive? Part of it may be genetic, also, you know, the differences in things like hormones and stuff like that. Also, if you think of like the behavioral characteristics of how men tend to be versus women in general, you tend to have differences in behavior and the way that things like testosterone, the way that men can be like, you do see differences often, I think, between men and women.

Interestingly, the only acceptable form of emotion that men are usually allowed to show is anger. If you actually think about it, society accepts men being angry, but men crying or sad or being a woman being angry becomes a problem, but a man can be angry Which is very interesting. So obviously it's sex. There's actually quite a lot of sexes in both parts there because we're not okay Men can't cry. I mean I was told growing up be a big boy, you know man up get on with it crying was weak it's ridiculous, um, you know think a statement but Yeah, you see that it's not acceptable for a woman to be angry I think some of it's yeah where you allow that to When you learn to channel that energy you can channel your hyper focus into products

If you want us there be accepting when you're having a day that's just some days I'm I can do a million miles now other days can't do anything and I've been very accepting of that now I'm much more much better except I, I know this one of those days, it's fine. Don't force it. And you learn to accept it much better. And I think that's the biggest thing about being diagnosed. And it's estimated by the ADHD Foundation, about two million people in the UK that have ADHD,

that just don't even realize they have it. And this is gonna sound like a ridiculous question, but where do you go? Well, I mean, for diagnosed at the moment, the moment you go into your GP you get referred then to on the NHS for assessment Depending where you are in the country some of that's a short wait list some of it's really long Like when I was looking into it, I think it was something like two years So I I pay privately but it's not cheap, you know, it's like 800 quid to get

Assessed a lot of money and I'm very fortunate I could do that. And then what happens after they're like, you have ADHD. Yeah, so the diagnosis, so you basically get referred, then you'll be assessed and it takes time. People think like, oh yeah, well, everyone's going to get an ADHD diagnosis. It's like giving someone a lifelong diagnosis is a very serious thing to do.

You need to know that you're with a great degree of certainty that you're right. And so they, you know, they speak to your family, like the interview family and friends and stuff like that. You do multiple touch points with them and they kind of assess your entire life. It's a, it's a long old process and it should be. And once you're diagnosed, then it's about, first of all, learning and then look at what your options are. And for some people that's medication, but for a lot of people it isn't. Interesting.

And the other thing I wanted to ask you about in the work that you do, and we touched on it a second ago in terms of, you know, men's difficulty as a society that they aren't encouraged to express other emotions outside of anger, how do you see that impacting men's mental health? It's huge. I mean, you know, the leading cause of death for men under 45 is suicide and the rates of suicide of men versus women is much higher. I mean, it's multiple higher. And often we talk, oh what's the difference? Yes, there are differences biologically and genetically between men and women.

We know that in the way they express. So we have our genotype, which is our genes and the coding, and then the phenotype is our expression of those genes. Like men appear differently, have masculine features, the testosterone has its effect on the body, and I think there are impacts of that. But largely a lot of what the issue is with regards to mental health and suicide is how we culture boys and how society shapes them. You know, society craves men, society craves men to speak but we train them to be silent, as in

keep the sadness within you, you know, think of the words that we use as boys growing up, man that'd be tough, you know, be strong. All these words are about being, you know, keeping the emotion in. Girls and women sit, they talk about emotions, they're much more open. Like I've seen it, especially because I've been interested in this space, I watch like women and how they interact and how men interact, what men talk about versus what women talk about and it's completely different even that the girls that work with me and I Often talk with them about this topic and they're like

It's just crazy like how their boyfriends will talk to each other versus how the girls will talk to and what they talk about Like the girls will often this obviously this is obviously I'm stereotyping to an extent But it is to try and highlight what are we are seeing on a kind of macro level is that Men just generally don't talk as much about problems They keep it inwardly women on a general level seem to kind of communicate about those problems more and I think a lot Of that is about how we bring people up and that's why I'm so passionate about having you know Education at school about emotional literacy Getting people to you know

As soon as you're old enough to have thoughts you're old enough to learn to control them to manage them to think about emotions and know how to use them and it's not about creating a you know a cohort people that are you hear the snowflake stuff actually it's about making really resilient people young people for those that aren't familiar what's the snowflake stuff this idea of the snowflake is a kind of it's a term that's been coined to say that, you know, like the younger generation are weak and we're feeble. Precious.

Yeah, precious, can't handle things. We want some evidence, look at the pandemic, you know, what they went through in that time, you can see a lot of evidence there of the strength, but you know, what it's about is training, you know, and helping and support and educating so that you have young people who are resilient. And what resilience means to me is that

rather than being, you know, when you're under pressure, rather than bending and breaking, you're able to like flex with the pressure and then come back to your former state or even better ideally. So it's your ability to cope and go with pressure but be able to kind of return. And the way that you do that doesn't have to be

about being stoic and quiet. It's about getting help, from people self-care looking after yourself it's very simple way of putting it but that's what it's all about but we need to have gender specific support and that's what science shows that actually at school at school but also also what why school but also an adult and the adult sphere as well because what we are learning more and more and this is shown with evidence that gender specific sport works and also if you don't think about that then you're excluding men they won't necessarily come forth to the traditional

things you think of for example you know if you think of them traditional therapy for a lot of men they don't want to come and sit down like chairs like this, where you've sat together and you've got a book, let's talk about emotions. Whereas the most successful places I've seen have been ways that have gone to men and thought about the environments they wanna be in. Like there's a place called the Work Shed on the South Coast

and they literally thought, right, we've got lots of like men who are struggling with mental health, what do we do? Well, they got a Work Shed and they thought, you know what, we'll pick different things in the community that we need, like a new park bench, we'll get men together, build it. And they have some of the people that run it, well, they had training in kind of mental health

and mental health first aid, and they kind of spot the signs of some of them that are struggling or they start opening up or they learn to start communicating while building. And that gets everyone talking about things, but also they can access the therapy and the support if they want it through that. It's the sort of alongside each other versus face-to-face. I went to a boxing gym in North London was run by or

started by a young group of Jewish boys who were like the amount of anti-semitism that's going on at the moment is horrendous and they were like we need support mental health of you know the young Jewish community and they started this boxing gym because they thought right, we need to support the mental health of, you know, the young Jewish community and they started boxing gyms. I thought, right, what we'll do is we'll do free boxing. But when you come in, you've got to do wellness. You got to do I think it's 20 minutes of well-being education and practice before you get the boxing session. And then all the coaches are trained in mental health first aid and they have attached to the boxing gym psychologist and they refer them through. So these young men are coming in. They're like, yeah, yeah coach like it's been a tough time you know doing the boxing whatever

and they're opening up because they see them as massive coaches and you know the boxers that open up okay what's going on like a home or whatever next thing you know you've got them into therapy and they get in support so gender specific stuff works and that's exactly why like I started metal METTLE the mental fitness app and it's for. There's great meditation apps out there, there's great mindfulness apps, but they're designed for women. This is a gamified platform that is targeted and focused in the way that men want to have it. And I think this is something we've started as a project, but I think the whole way that the country needs to view mental

health needs to think about that. to men don't always expect men to come to you and if you want to change the way that men are then educate but what are your thoughts around the sort of movement that's happening with the sort of Andrew Tate it's just bizarre and when we're having so much progress and so many areas that feels like a very backward movement. Well where there's a vacuum where there's space it will be filled and the unfortunate thing is that I think there's been a growing issue with young boys and men feeling lost not really knowing what masculinity means in some ways even feeling ashamed for being masculine or being a man and

therefore what's happened is this person has stepped in and he's provided this beacon of hope for all these people. And of course, he's not the beacon of hope anyone, well, I certainly hope that people want. It's a wider conversation, but I mean, sexism in this country has been a huge issue over the years, how women have been disadvantaged in the workplace, pay gaps, and the movement of feminism. I think we all agree is really positive thing. What we need to do is help that while just being careful that we don't, that we don't make young boys think it's bad to be a man, because actually being a man can be really important. Think of my dad growing up and, you know, having men in

your life and masculine figures, that's, that's really important. And I think we just got to be careful that we give hope and we help channel young boys and young men as they grow up to know that actually being a man, being masculine can mean showing emotion, being vulnerable, being masculine can mean following female leadership, being masculine can be, yes, being tough and strong, but also able to just kind of step back and say, you need help. I agree there's loads of, oh of toxic masculinity is a huge issue. And I agree.

And I'm with you all. And I'm with everyone on it. We all agreed. I hope most people agreed on that, but what we needed to give is a good alternative. Like, what, okay, what is, what does it mean to be good masculine? What does that mean? And if we can help really channel that, then I think we can help. This is just my thought, but maybe we can help stop what we know channel that then I think we can help this is just my thought but maybe we can help

Stop what we've seen with the andrew tate situation as a kind of final note I think you are an amazing example of a very healthy masculine man who's doing incredible work in the world. That's very kind of you. I say the same thing I've said before I'm perfectly imperfect, I'm still growing, learning. I feel a good person, I must say. Like at certain times of my life, especially things where I bother, but other times that we've made mistakes in my life,

I think you feel like a not a good person. But I think in an odd way, that is what it means to be a good person when you're able to kind of sit and think, oh, you know, I'm disappointed in myself or whatever. But I really hope for the younger generation we learn to not judge others and ourselves so harshly like Everyone's obsessed with being or being seen to be a really good person

But actually we're all most of us are just human, you know And we're all doing our best and you'll have times in your life which you're like that you've got right and other times You've got long got wrong. I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect. I'm doing my best like everyone else. We'll make mistakes. Pick yourself up and you go again. Well thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. As a final sort of note, where can people find you? So I'm on at DR Alex George, across socials. Have a listen to Stompcast. Our chat was amazing. I loved it.

If you wanna check out, if you're a man listening to this, or I got a lot of messages from girlfriends, sisters, wives, stuff as well, check out METAL, M-E-T-T-L-A, you can download it, try it on a free trial, see if you like it. If you don't find it helpful, delete it, but we found a lot of men found it really useful. It's no nonsense, it's to the point,

but it does help, it helps. Thank you so much. Thank you. I loved listening back to this and having this chat. It was filled with so much wisdom, particularly around ADHD. Also, I love how he speaks about sobriety. This is obviously a journey that I've been on myself. I need to do an update with you guys on that because

it's it's changed a lot recently but having this conversation especially that connection between ADHD and alcohol, alcoholism is really fascinating I did not know that so I'm gonna to go and kind of research that. But I hope that this has been a comforting listen for you guys and that it's helped. I know that we covered some quite big themes but I hope that it's given you some food for thought. I also wanted to let you know that we have created a space for the community. Finally, I feel like I've been talking about this for so so long. After trying various things out, I've not really found a place that's really landed in terms of the best space, but we have decided that it's

going to be sub-stack. I feel like everyone's loving it at the moment and that's where we'll be able to share thoughts, ideas, you can connect with other like-minded people that listen to the show, it will be where we can announce live shows, community events, give you astrology updates as well as my solo series and personal newsletter. So it's a kind of hybrid between the Saturn Returns world and my more personal musings. So if you guys enjoyed those solo episodes in the past then you can head to sub stack

and we have called it You Are Not Alone which we thought was very appropriate and I'm really excited to start growing the community there so head on, the link will also be in the show notes. And that's kind of it. I mean if you guys also I feel like I never promote the book so I'm going to do that a little bit more this series if you guys want to hear more about my personal story of my saturn returns journey. I have written a book called Saturn Returns or Cosmic Coming of Age. I did write it a while ago but I sort of forget that you have to keep mentioning these things and every so often I'll get a message saying oh I just discovered your book I saw it in a bookstore and gravitated towards it.

I'm like oh yeah. And also it's been released in a few different countries which is always quite a nice feeling. So if you guys haven't checked that out and you want to kind of dive deeper on Saturn Returns then you can find it on Amazon, any good retailer, yeah I hope you enjoy. But as always thank you so much for listening. If you guys want to listen to Alex's podcast that I was on a couple of years ago, the Stompcast, you can head to the Stompcast. And also his Metal Me app, I think it's M-E-T-T-L-E he said. Anyway, I will leave you with that. And as always, thank you with that.