Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Dr. Joycelyn Elders

Episode Date: July 31, 2020

Dr. Joycelyn Elders is an American hero who went from a sharecropper's daughter to the first black Surgeon General of the United States. This is the story of her inspirational rise, her infuriating firing and her inability to stop doing good.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saubones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's lost it out. We were sawed through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines that escalate my cop for the mouth. Wow. Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to Saw Bones, a marital tour of Miscite at Medicine. I'm your co-host, Justin McElroy. It is. I'm Sydney McElroy. It's such a thrill to be here, Sydney. You tried to cut me off before I got to introduce myself. You know what's sad?

You know what's actually sad? You know why I did that? Why? In my head, I was thinking, this is sounding good. That's what I was thinking to myself. Like, I'm in fun voice today. That's what I was thinking. And that kept me from letting you introduce yourself. And I feel guilty about it. Maybe you need to think a little bit more of others than yourself. You know, this is a great time to be thinking about there's Sydney.

And one of the great ways that people can do that is by thinking of the others that make the podcast that they love. It's Max Fun Drive. Right now, we just have one more week. of the others that make the podcast that they love. It's Max Fun Drive right now. We just have one more week. So you're running out of time. If you want to support the shows you love, maximumfun.org-forth-last-join, we have advertising, of course,

but the main source of our funding is you, the listening public. We would never be able to make an undisturbing dollar alone. We need you to support these shows they've allowed us to Make this a full-time job a lot of us to make other cool stuff by audio equipment feed our kids, you know, etc Feed them close them put a roof over their heads. They've gotten so spoiled But and we are only able to do that through your support if you pledge five bucks bucks a month, 10 bucks a month, it would be huge and you'll get some

cool gifts, like a bonus content. At five dollars a month, there were 200 hours of it sitting. I made a whole new podcast called Fast and Furious Injustive and Sydney that at least four episodes are up now. There may be more by the time you listen to this. We've recorded six, so they're there. It's coming. It's happening. And two more will happen. A $10 a month gets you a cool pen. R's is a picture of a unicorn that says homey-opathy means pretend. It's a homeopathic means pretend. It designed my mega-ling

cot. There's pens for all the shows, but really what you're doing is supporting the stuff you love. So please. Thank you. If you're a member, thank you. If you're thinking about it, this is a great time because you get a gift while you're becoming a member. Wonderful gift. Maximumfund.org for its last join. But Sydney, we're not here to just talk about our desperate need for funding. We have another topic too.

We couldn't fill. Well, we could probably fill 35 minutes with begging, but let's not. No, please, please no. Although I was just begging there, so I'm begging you. You know, usually I name who gave me the inspiration for this, for each of my topics. And I guess this time I have to give the credit

to Penn and Teller. Yeah. Justin and I were rewatching old episodes of, I can't say the name of the show on our show, because it's BS. It's got a bad word on it. Yeah, it's got a curse. And it inspired me, one of the episodes inspired me

to do a show about Dr. Joycelyn Elders, former Surgeon General of the United States. Can we talk about BS for a second before we move on to Joycelyn Landers? We realize we've been rewatching old episodes of the show and while obviously not everything has held up wonderfully in the 15 years since the show was made, we did realize how much of a big part of watching this show before we did sobones many, many years ago was part of sobones itself, like that thinking critically and challenging things. And there's even some episodes that are,

you know, going after alternative medicine stuff like that. And, you know, sort of foundational roots of, I don't typically use the word skepticism, I think like practicality, logic-based, science-based is a little more. For me, it's about preventing people from being taken advantage of. And when you're talking about,

usually you try to lay off of people's beliefs, because as long as they're not harming anyone, and the problem with medicine is that sometimes they are very directly harming people. And I feel like that's when things become fair game. When you're doing harm, because that's the opposite of what we do. And I think Dr. Joyce Lennelder's would agree.

Cause she appeared on an episode. That's true. That's true. Which was lauded. Yes. Hard to look. Yes. Yeah.

Appearing on an episode for being anti-BS. Yes, right. Which is the same reason I'm celebrating her on this show today because usually on sawbones we're talking about like if we focus on a Person it's because they were like a snake oil salesman or they did something really wacky In this case, I like to think that Joyce and Dr. Joyce and Elders was in the midst of a lot of about to just use her first name like you guys were. I know we're not friends. I wish we were friends, but we're not friends. She's still with us.

Yeah, finally a subman's episode where Sydney doesn't get to announce their death. I like that. But sure, she's putting her to large obituary stamp. She stamps on every episode. She's being back in the comically oversized drawer, if it's in. She was the voice and continues to be the voice of reason in the midst of a lot of medical history ridiculousness, I would say.

So I want to focus on her and celebrate her as I think a figure in medical history that is certainly celebrated and talked about, but should be more so. Okay. So, I was alive during the time that Dr. Elders served as surgeon general to the United States. I don't remember much of it because I was pretty young. This was in 1993, 1994.

Yeah, can we actually, real quick, what is the surgeon general? Like in charge of, I mean, in a sense, you help like guide administrative policy, executive administrative policy in terms of all matters, health and medicine and that kind of thing. You're in charge of the US public health service officially. We get upsets and times. Yeah, we could talk into it.

Oh, I don't know the list. But, but it's, I mean, it's a big deal. It's like top doctor. Top doctor. That that's an, it's a big deal. It's like top doctor. Yeah. That doesn't easy way to think about it. Current top doctor. America's top doc. You get the ear of the president when it comes to issues, issues medical. And that's a big deal, right? I don't remember a lot of the controversy around her dismissal. Obviously she was only search in general for a year. So there's more to this story.

You may already know that you may not. I don't remember a lot of exosperry young, so it wasn't something that even though it happened in my lifetime that I knew, when I look back at it, reading about it now through the lens of 2020, it's amazing to me to see how ahead of her time, Dr. Elders was in a lot of her positions,

how much of it makes total sense and would be widely accepted today by many, not all, but by many of us. But at the time, it was very controversial for her to speak out about these progressive ideas. And then I think something that remains true unfortunately this day because not only was she progressive and spoke out about the thing she believed in, she is a black woman. And she was speaking out about things in ways that made people uncomfortable and challenged the white power structure that still has not been dismantled in this country.

And so I think that her refusal to be silent would still be a challenge for her. It still is a challenge for her. But anyway, so let's get into her history. Dr. Elders was born in Shaw, Arkansas, which I guess is not too far from Hope, Arkansas, which is going to help determine, I think, the course of events as we move forward. Because as you may know,

probably no Bill Clinton is from Hope Arkansas. Right. Yes. She was born in 1933. She was the oldest of eight children. Her birthday is actually pretty soon. I believe 80. What would that be? 87th birthday, yes. Good for her. August 13th. Crash it. Yeah, so you can celebrate that with her August 13th. Her name was Minneley Jones when she was born.

She would later add Joyselin herself in college. So cool. I know, I think it's very cool. Her parents were sharecroppers. They did not have a lot of money. She reports that she actually never saw a physician until she was 16 years old. That was the first time she went to a doctor.

I imagine. Yes. She's. There's a great interview where I got with her from back in 1994, where I read a lot about her history from her own words. And she talks about that when she was younger, she wanted to be a laboratory technician

because it was the only thing she'd heard about. She said she didn't know that you could be a doctor because as she says, you can't be what you don't see. She didn't know that as a black woman, she could be a doctor. She didn't even think she could be a clerk in a clothing store because she'd never seen a black clerk in a clothing store. So'd never seen a black clerk in a clothing store. So she assumed it was not an option for her.

That's really, I mean, that's, yes, you can't be what you don't see is like, I think that's really, you know, it's funny for me growing up as a young white boy in West Virginia, I didn't see podcasters. And so this is the same. growing up as a young white boy in West Virginia, I didn't see podcasters. And so this is the same. I'm sort of equally, God, I'm sort of equally inspirational. This is already a very uplifting episode, Sydney. I feel great about this. Right. What let's hear some other parallels about me and Dr. Joseph. So she excelled at school. She would go on to become valedictorian of her class and receive a scholarship to Philander Smith College, which is a private historically black college in Little Rock.

Still going to this day. She tells a story about when she went, her brothers and sisters had to help her get together enough money to get some clothes to wear to go to college and the bus fare. They actually had to help her. She, they were like picking cotton and would she say like trapping raccoons to raise enough money for her to go. So I mean, really worked, worked every step of the way to get to where she where she is today. So she went to college there. She got her bachelor's in biology. And while she was there, she met a female physician, the first black woman to study at the University of Arkansas Medical School, Dr. Edith Erby Jones, who she to this day

says was a huge inspiration to her because she saw that this was a viable career path for her as well. She could do this too. And she decided after meeting her that she also wanted to be a doctor, specifically a doctor that could help kids. That was her number one goal when she was young was I want to grow up and be a doctor who can help children. So, her pathway wasn't direct. She spent some time first as a nurse's aid in a VA hospital. She would go on to join the Army herself. While she was in the Army, she trained to be a physical therapist. And then finally, by 1960, she was able to enroll in medical school at the University of Arkansas. And get on her path, on her chosen path, to residency and pediatrics, a fellowship and endocrinology, and an MS in biochemistry as well. So once she had all those credentials, her expertise as a physician, the respect she earned from her community with her knowledge

base and with her skill set and her ability to affect change. She was named eventually the director of the Arkansas Department of Health. And as soon as she got into that position, she began to, well, she was already doing this, but she continued her stated goal of helping kids, making a difference in children's lives. And one of the big things she wanted to combat was teen pregnancy, which I would say in many rural areas, you see this as a larger problem. It's a problem everywhere, but you can see this especially in some rural areas.

And it was in Arkansas, I would echo that sentiment in West Virginia. And she saw this, in her words, she saw this as a form of slavery that still existed, especially for young black women, because they, black women disproportionately did not have access to contraception the way that white women did. There were many, she talked about a textbook that said white women's, and this is from the textbook, I should say that a more exact form of this would be white people who have periods, have regular periods,

whereas black people who have periods have irregular periods. Now, why would it say something like that that isn't true? I don't know. Because white people had access to contraception and birth control pills that can regulate cycles in a way that black people did not have access. So it would seem that white people's cycles were more regular

when really it was just a, it was an access to contraception difference. And so one of the things she really wanted to do was combat the teen pregnancy rate by providing access to contraception and talking about it, creating like school-based health clinics where you could talk to somebody about sexual health where you could access contraception, access condoms, you know, get the information and the stuff you need to protect yourself. I think people who, I feel like we have a lot of listeners to this show that are maybe

a generation, like a half a generation behind us. I don't think you can really appreciate and maybe even we're kind of a little young to appreciate what a big battleground this was in the like early 90s, early to mid 90s. This idea of like should kids be taught safe sex was the presuming question, like the sort of like overarching question and moral question, I think, of the era. Like it was a massive, massive battleground.

Maybe even more so than abortion at that exact moment. Like I remember hearing at least a lot more about it in that moment, this idea that like we should be teaching kids safe sex, it was like a huge, huge, huge conversation. And it wasn't, I mean, I think part of it is our area. Abortionist is not talked about in this area of the country much. I know that seems like an odd statement to make, but it's not because it's still so taboo

to even discuss here that certainly in our schools it wasn't talked about. And I would say there are probably other rural areas where that's true. And I think that the thing that Dr. Elders really understood is the intersectionality of this issue, the fact that it's not just, it wasn't just that all teens weren't getting access to contraceptive services and sex education, because as she said, there were a lot of young white people who were on birth control pills to, quote unquote, regulate their periods, because they do that. Now, were parents sort of accepting,

this is also going to keep you from getting pregnant, but we're not gonna talk about it or acknowledge it, was it like a massive self-deception? Will all pretend this isn't for sex, even though it is definitely for sex. I definitely, definitely for sex. I mean, I feel like I was part of that. I was put on birth control pills

when I was 14 years old to regulate my period. Nobody ever said it was for prevention of pregnancy, but it would have done that had I been in that situation. And what Dr. Ellers said was very true. Black people were not given this option. They were not being given the option to start contraception for those reasons. So, you know, again, there's more to the issue than just all young people didn't have access. So, she spoke out about the school-based clinics that spread throughout the state of Arkansas,

made a huge difference. They saw a huge decrease in the teen pregnancy rate under Dr. Elder's leadership. Just speaking, honestly, a lot of it is also just sex education talking about it, which, again, like you said, was totally taboo. The idea that somebody would honestly talk to you about the fact that there is sex, and it happens. That was a big deal. I had a health teacher get fired for talking to openly with us about sex back then. So anyway, she addressed other issues as well. A lot of it, like I said, was focused on teen pregnancy. Even as surgeon general, she would later say that was her number one thing. She wanted to help combat, but she also saw like a 24% rise in the immunization rate for two-year-old. So

she was a huge advocate of getting kids like preventive health services, even in rural communities that weren't getting necessarily the kind of attention they needed. Let's get kids their immunizations. Expanding the availability of HIV testing and counseling. She was a huge advocate for expanded like HIV treatment and testing early on, when especially if you compare that to previous administrations, lack of response at all to HIV. Dr. Elders was a huge shift in that to, let's talk about this, let's head on, confront this,

let's diagnose it, let's treat it, let's do this, let's actually address the problem. She was a big advocate for breast cancer screenings, expanded that, better hospice care, so like lots of other issues. It wasn't just teen pregnancy, but she did promote sex education, hygiene, prevention of substance abuse, things that would become worse and would become like hot button issues as she progressed

in her career. And it seems inevitable because here she is in Arkansas, she's making all these differences. She's in this position of state leadership. We're at a point in history where, as you may or may not know, the Clintons are about to inhabit the White House. It seems very obvious that when he would be elected president, one of his first appointments would be Dr. Joyce Lennelder's as surgeon general.

She was loved by the left. Progressive organizations were very excited about this appointment. She was an advocate for the LGBTQ community for better HIV education treatment abortion rights. Sex said she'd be the first first she was, she is the first black surgeon general, she's the second woman surgeon general. So it was a good pick from both qualified to do the job well perspective and for Clinton from a political perspective. Right. She was a great pick.

What could go wrong? No, I don't know. Nothing. I'm going to tell you, but first let's go to the building department. What could go wrong? I don't know. Nothing. I'm going to tell you, but first let's go to the building department. Let's go. The medicines, the medicines that I've given my car for the mouth. So said, I'm ready. I've girded myself emotionally.

What could go wrong with this amazing person? Well, as you may imagine, it wasn't an easy battle, the appointment to search in general, the confirmation of Dr. Joyce on Elders was not smooth. It was not a smooth confirmation process. I feel like I understand a lot of this just from the West Wing. Yeah, there was also her being from Arkansas was, it was a thing when he came into office. Like there was a,

remember they talked about this on, I think it was on Fiasco, the idea that he was just filling the White House with people from Arkansas. That he was just basically bringing his, I think they called it the Capitol Hillbillies, was like the joke, like we're loading up the trailer and bringing everybody from Arkansas to fill out the,

you know, which is a lot of like rural bias in there that like people from Arkansas can't also be, you know, national leaders. And so you can imagine how much harder. We never get that recipe. Oh yeah, I have no connection to that. But you can imagine though, whatever connection we may have on that level to the, yes, as people

from a rural state, everyone assumes we're dumb. But even more so, here she is. She is from a rural area of the country. She grew up poor from a, you know, a very rural part of a rural state, of a poor state. She is black. She is a woman. And the beating she got in the confirmation hearing. I think she said, I came in as a stake, and I left as hamburger or something like that,

or her words, but the Republicans at the confirmation hearing were just terrible to her. They called her unimpressive and foolish. Hmm, some very, some very thinly veiled language there. Yes. She was belittled as a person, as a physician. Everything about her was called into question. It's amazing knowing all this that she was confirmed,

but she was. After she was, members of the American Medical Association tried to pass a resolution in because they were so upset by this, tried to pass a resolution saying that only doctors could be appointed surgeon general. Now, why would they do that? I don't know. They didn't believe she was a doctor. Who didn't? These members of the American Medical Association couldn't fathom that this black woman from rural Arkansas could be a doctor. So they tried to pass this, which was meaningless because she, you know, is a doctor, but they

just, and they didn't even do the research. I mean, I know this was like pre-Google, but you could have asked anyone. They just assumed that there's no way she can be a doctor. Let's pass this resolution so this never happens again. Well, ridiculous, because, you know, teach the doctor. Anyway, if you were alive at this point in history and old enough to be aware,

as you may know, this, what were the Capitol Hill Billies coming to the White House. And this progressive revolution that she could have been a part of was very short-lived. Yes. Because the, the 1994 midterm election would kind of spell the end of whatever Bill Clinton's Progressive plans actually were. I don't know what's in his heart. Whatever he really wanted to accomplish the end of that was spelled in 1994 with the Republican revolution. Yeah, Newt Gingrich led a

group of Republican Congress people and senators to In his contract with America to victory. They unceded 54 members of the House and eight of the Senate flipped all those seats read. And basically that would that would really change the course of like Clinton's policies what he was able to get done because everything was a compromise with Newt Gingrich and the GOP at that point. And many of his politics would start to shift to the middle from the left, which I would say they weren't. They weren't nearly as far to the left as I am anyway, but they definitely shifted further to a conservative perspective,

and this would include medicine. As you may imagine, as I've alluded to with the confirmation hearing, the GOP establishment did not like Dr. Elders. Yes. They were not a fan. They like to call her the condom queen because she advocated for birth control for those who needed it. What a wild woman. But she reportedly, this was a big thing that was made a lot of like media heyday out of, she had a condom tree on her desk.

Now, what it was actually was a, someone had fashioned a bouquet of roses out of lifestyle condom wrappers that were red. And she did have that on her desk. That's cool. I am disappointed that she did not at some point plant a condom and a beautiful condom tree merge from it. Well, that's not a thing. No, but what if it had been? Certainly would make, man, that would make safe sex a lot easier if you could just tell teenagers just plant this condom tree in your closet. Grow this. Grow this.

Get a girl. Next to the secret marijuana you're growing. Yeah, grow your condom tree. Don't know, I'd advocate everybody talk to their parents, but anyway, so she was an advocate for abortion rights as well. I don't think we've talked as much about that yet, but at one point they asked her about it, and she said, we really need to get over this love affair

with the fetus and start worrying about children. You can imagine how... No, no, great. Right, the conservatives in Washington felt about that statement. You never heard Joyce Lidell to speak. She gives... We're not allowed to curse on this show.

She gives no S. She is a pretty direct woman. Well, she's very matter of fact, because a lot of what she says is, well, I would say everything she says is evidence-based. And when she says that, well, I'm not sure about this, it's because we don't have the evidence

to say yes or no on this yet. So I would say that this is possibly a good idea, but we need to study it. I mean, it's all very, I mean, it's good science. It's good medicine. It's the way someone who believes in the scientific method would speak. And so obviously she was, she already had a lot of people against her. And beyond that, she also advocated for the legalization of marijuana. She said it was something that should be studied.

She at that point said, we don't have enough evidence to know all the effects of decriminalization or legalization, whatever we were deciding, of marijuana. We don't know yet. She said, we need to study it because basically our current plan of arresting everybody and spending billions of dollars to keep all of these people in jail is a failure. And why do we have the, why are we continuing this war on drugs that is failing? How about we study something that might actually work? That was all she said, which again, today is not that controversial of a position, I would say.

But at the time, it was very controversial. Actually, after she made these comments, her son, Kevin, was arrested for allegedly trying to sell cocaine to an undercover police officer. Very shortly after she made these comments in favor of decriminalization. I want to bet the right, I hate it with that. Yes, and it was, he, in the trial, his lawyer said that it was in trapment that was never proven, he ended up,

I think it was sentenced to 10 years, but only served like four months or something. And in more recent years, she has spoken more openly about his diagnosis of, you know, substance use disorder and about how he has been sober for. I think when I was reading the article, it had been 15 years, and he works every day to maintain that. So she's been very open about those things. But as to the timing of his arrest and the circumstances surrounding it, it's obviously very suspect. For sure.

So all of this, once the conservatives took, what is suspect? The fact that just within, like, it was two weeks after she made these comments supporting possibly, you're saying the other suspect in terms of like the charge, like the going after the sun was like pretty sketchy considering. Yes. It seemed, it seemed very politically motivated. The timing. That makes sense.

But I don't, I think, I think it's like a lot of things. There's nuance. Did he, did he use drugs? It seems from the history that yes, he did. But at that moment was, was that actually what happened? Did he actually try to so? Right. I don't know. It all seems very convenient for people who wanted to make her out to be a bad person. So anyway, people wanted to attack Clinton for moral reasons. Certainly Bill Clinton could give them.

Many. Got him a little bit. On his own. He didn't really need help. He certainly didn't need help from this amazing human, Joyce Lennelter's, but the GOP in Congress at the time felt that she was a good target because of all these beliefs. And this landslide victory in 94 gave them the footing on which to do it and all she had to do was say the wrong thing.

So on December 1st of 1994 and this was, I mean, again, this is a month after the midterm elections. So on December 1st, she was at a UN AIDS conference in New York and a psychologist there, Dr. Rob Clark, asked her a question, basically saying, should we have a more explicit discussion and promotion of masturbation when we're talking about different methods we could use to stop the spread of HIV? And in response to that, Dr. Elders talked about how she is a big advocate of sex education. And her quote was, as per your specific question in regard to masturbation, I think that it is something that is part of human sexuality, and it's a part of something that perhaps should be taught, but we've not even taught our children the very basics. That was her

response. Now, what do you think the headlines were after Dr. Elder said this? Elder's endorses teaching children how to masturbate. Yes. That was exactly what her opponents needed. So, not only did they say she wanted us to teach our kids to masturbate, but that we should teach our kids in school how to masturbate. Which is, if you think about, if you parse what she is saying, it is actually like three different ideas. She's saying like, yeah, people masturbate. Yeah, we should teach people that that's part of normal life.

But we're not even teaching children, our children who could be any age, don't have to be like little kids, we're not teaching them the basics of sex education. We're not teaching them anything. Yes. But they have like conflated those into one damning sort of thing. And yes, I did use that word. I don't think that that was a profanity in this sense.

Okay, okay. So this was exactly what people needed to use against or this was the fodder they needed because they could make headlines out of it, that could confuse everybody and upset everybody and inflame everybody who already was against her for a million reasons. And Clinton had distanced himself from her positions before. When she talked about legalization of drugs, he had kind of said, well, we don't really see eye to eye on everything. But I support her autonomy and her position.

And those kinds of like vague political stances. But this was the one, apparently this was the hill to die on. He couldn't, he had to deny her for this. So he asked for her resignation and the administration made it clear in press releases that if she did not resign, she would be fired. So this was not, that they wanted to take a very strong position against masturbation in this, in this moment in history. And I think, I think it's very clear that obviously this was part of Clinton trying to move further to the right

because of this election, but also she is a black woman who arose to this position of power and this threatened white supremacy in many ways. And so removing her from that position was very important to her opponents. And they found a reason to do it. There was a lot of outcry from more left-leaning organizations. Plant parent hub was very upset about this. A lot of LGBTQ and abortion rights groups were upset.

HIV activists were upset because they saw in Dr. elders someone who could really address all these issues who could really move things forward in a scientific way in an evidence base way and give a lot of like scientific legitimacy to these groups that were kind of seen as like fringe left at the time, but we're actually speaking about critical medical needs for many members of our country. There is a West Wing episode that is obviously inspired by this. Yes. And it's so hilarious.

It's hilarious in hindsight because what the West Wing episode is about is the Surge General, who is white, by the way, so it's not like, it's not getting all the nuance. But the Surge general endorses legalizing marijuana early studying it, I think. And they're such an outcry that she resigns. And then the president says, no, I won't accept your resignation. And it's just like, what if that, would that be a fun world? like every West Wing episode, the fundamental question is, would that be a cool world to live in? Imagine if things were like this, oh well, they're not. Which again is why I think it highlights

why the intersectionality of these issues is so important to discuss, because I do think that in the West Wing world, because you have made the Surgeon General white, it is more realistic that she would be given a pass than a black woman who is being held to a standard that nobody else is, unfortunately. So just before I get into where she is today

and what she is still doing, because obviously that was not the end of Dr. Elders' good work. She had a lot more to do. And she's very matter of fact about the whole thing. She wouldn't change a thing. She doesn't regret any of it. She was right. She knows she was right and she's glad that she did what was right at the end of the day and she was abstinence education only and Refusing to offer contraception or talk about contraception

Refusing to talk about SCIs or HIV or how to prevent it or all that thing, just telling kids don't have sex. All it means, all the evidence is shown that the kids who get this kind of education are more likely to not use protection when they have sex. That's it. They're either going to have sex or they're not. All you're doing is ensuring that they're not going to use a condom or some other form of contraception when they do. So she was right. it doesn't work.

Banny abortion does not stop abortion. It just makes them more dangerous for the people largely non-white people and poor people who are getting them. What I mean by that is white people and rich people who are getting them, it is not necessarily more dangerous for. And masturbation is normal. And obviously she didn't mean. Thank you.

This is why I keep telling everybody, who will listen. And I have to post this. I hope he's listening. It's normal. And that doesn't mean my car. I certainly don't want school teachers Teaching children how to masturbate, but that was never But that well exactly that was not what Dr. Elders was suggesting or anyone else's it's a mirror

I'm sorry. I was a you know A Pritine boy by some miracle. I figured it out. Is he credible? Is it of some miracle of biology? Well, as a lot of scientists will tell you, like the human animal will figure this out on their own. He's figured it out.

If as part of like a sex positive education, telling your children that this is a normal thing, and encouraging them to maybe do it alone in their room and not in the living room I think is fine But anyway that all these things are a lot more accepted now not by everyone of course and who isn't talking about legalization I'm sorry, but like we have a an upcoming election where for a while in the primary how many of the candidates were supporting that Yeah, you know, I mean this, none of these ideas are so far to the left that they're outrageous. She was just saying them.

But they were far enough to the left that we still haven't done them. So, you know, that's 25 years later. Well, that is true. All she did was say the stuff that people have believed for a long time, but she was unafraid to say it out loud. She was ahead of her time. She was a progressive when many of the quote unquote progressives were not. And I think you draw parallel there between what she said in public and seeing someone like

her say that in a public forum gave permission to the other people who would come after her, who heard her say it. And without, you know, attaching too much narrative weight to the thing, I think it's a parallel of her growing up and not seeing any doctors that look like her. And if she didn't see it, she couldn't be it. And I think that that goes for saying these things in a public forum, like once she said it, other people could, could, you know, start to say it out loud too.

And she said things like, I was reading this, there's this great interview from the New York Times magazine from 1994 with her, where you can read a lot of her idea. And again, like as you read these ideas, she is speaking the truth that we need to hear now. In 1994, she says, we can't legislate morals, we have to teach them kids how to take care of themselves.

I mean, she is saying the things that are true to this day, and it's very frustrating. She also talks about her husband in such an adorable way. But anyway, she didn't stop. Even though she wasn't a surgeon general, she became a professor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Science, then a professor emeritus. Still works, lecturing all over on preventing teen pregnancy, on sexual health. She's spoken out since more in favor of legalization, as well as speaking out against the military

ban on transgender members. She's spoken out against that. She was, I think, in charge of the, yes, that spoke out against that. She's worked with changing the face of medicine, which seeks to ensure that we have a higher percentage of black doctors in America, because as we talked about on the show before, our numbers of doctors in this country, our percentages of doctors in this country who are not white are ridiculously low and not representative of the population as a whole. And again, reflect the systemic racism that she talks about, by the way, in this interview,

the white power structure, again, in 1994. When these things, I think we're not, I know that they were being talked about by the black community at the time. I know that. When I say they weren't being talked about, they weren't being talked about by a lot of the voices in power because a lot of the voices in power were white and they were one ignorant to them and two, refusing to acknowledge them because they were part of it. But these things that I think we are as white people coming to accept as having been true for years, and we've been ignoring it, she was talking about in a,

on a large stage in 1994, and that I'm certain that is what made so many people uncomfortable, because it was the truth. She said, I thought this was a great, oh, by the way, she has an autobiography you can read. Joycelyn Elders MD from Sharecroppers' daughter to Surgeon General of the United States of America. So if you want to learn more, I would say get her book, read about it from her.

And she in one interview with US News and World Report, no, in one interview with New York Times, they said, US News and World Report described you as, she's intolerant, preachy, judgmental, and overbearing. She's bright, articulate, passionate, and kind. Is that an accurate description? And what she said in response to that was, it's pretty good. I'm only overbearing to the people I need to be overbearing with. You've got to get people's attention before you can achieve change.

As Surgeon General, you have to take a stand. People are either going to love you or hate you. This was right before she was removed from office too. You know, that's a lot like being a podcaster. You're like, are you going to love or hate your podcast and you still got to, you know, podcast. All I'm saying is I would love she's a hero. I mean, I want to coin put on the dollar bill. Yeah, I we should be celebrating this, this black woman physician as a country as a progressive

leader in a way that I just don't, I don't feel like she's been elevated enough. We couldn't figure it out. Sinny literally had me do, like, to try to find out why Jocelyn Elders is, excuse me, Jocelyn Elders is not the, like, a massive figure in the American landscape. I did, like, opposition research on Joy Flynn Elders. I think like opposition research on joyful and elderly. I think the problem is that like why people don't know surprise any history that isn't white.

I mean, that's our problem, right? Like I call us out. It's our privilege. It's our it's the white supremacist power structure in this country. We don't we don't learn these things. But she's amazing. Her birthday's next month. And I think that they have continued to be so influential in the American political

landscape that like that narrative can't, it could not gain as much traction. She also never held it against him either. She never spoke out against him. I know, I know. I mean, I do. Obviously, that's not, there's a list when it comes to Oakland and this is on it. But yeah, she was very, she just went on about her good work and okay,

I'm done with that chapter, what's next? Which is very admirable for her. But anyway, so learn about her, read about her, read her book, put a poster up on your wall of Dr. Joyce Lennelters. I want one. I want a condom tree. A condom tree coming right up.

Thank you so much for listening to our podcast reminder that we're entering the last week of the Max Fund Drive. If you could support our show, it would just mean the world. MaxMumFund.org. Forth slash join $5 a month. If you can put $5 a month, you will help keep our shows going, help us make the things that we make and help support the things you love.

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I'm Sydney McRoy. As always, don't drill a hole in your head. Music Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture Artistote Audience supported Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture

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