Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Leprosy

Episode Date: January 28, 2014

Welcome to Sawbones, where Dr. Sydnee McElroy and her husband Justin McElroy take you on a whimsical tour of the dumb ways in which we've tried to fix people. This week: We get biblical on leprosy. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers (http://thetaxpayers.net)

Saabones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books! One, two, one, two, three, four! We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's lost it out. We pushed on through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

The medicines, the medicines, the escalant macaque for the mouth. Wow! Sit, Sydney. See Macrioy. Yes, just Justin Mac Roy. Sydney Mac Roy co-host of Solbins of Marital Tour of Miss Guy Medicine. Yes, did you do you have a question Justin Mac Roy other co-host? It's me Justin listen. I don't want to panic you But after bitter irony to report after But it bit our irony to report after almost 30 episodes of talking about disease on myself have contracted a disease. Oh, um, who told you the, uh, where did I'm going to show you? Are you sure? Strengthen your resolve.

Is this just another one of those times you think? No, no, no, I'm positive. I said, since you're listening. Okay. I have contracted leprosy. Leprosy? Oh, it feels good just to get it off my chest. I'm so sorry to burn you with this.

How do you even know? I'll show you. I'll show you. What leprosy is? But please strengthen your stomach because this is gonna be hard for you to see and it's gonna make some big changes for us. Okay, are you, are you braced?

Yes, honey. Look at this. What? That? Yeah, right here on my chin. I mean, the honey, it looks like you cut yourself shaving. No, it's bleeding and there's skin missing. Yeah, I mean, it looks, it kind of looks like you nicked yourself

with your, when did you notice this? After I shaved. Yeah, honey, you just cut yourself shaving. Okay, That's been there like literally since I've known you. Okay. Convidating Thomas. Fine. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, it's not. It's a freckle. It's fine. I have one more. I have one more. Look at this. Dun dun dun. Honey, I think that's some jelly from your toast earlier. Yeah. Okay. That's jelly. It tastes pretty good. It is not likey. No, that's that's jelly. It's how would you even know? How would I know the difference between leprosy and jelly?

Is anybody know the difference between leprosy and jelly? Well to be fair They're out human history. We haven't always been great at telling the difference between leprosy and other diseases Although I don't know that it was often confused with jelly. I mean, there's the first time for everything. Usually, you can tell because jelly is so much more delicious than leprosy. Right, correct. But to be fair, we now have much more sophisticated methods of figuring that out.

Well, take me back to the beginning of leprosy. And maybe by the end of this episode, you can convince me that that's not what I've been. I mean, let's just call what it's stricken with. Right. Okay. And in the meantime, maybe you could get some toast for the jelly. Right. Very leprosy joke.

Very funny. Well, leprosy joke. Yeah. The leprosy joke about jelly. It went way around. So, leprosy dates back, if you didn't know this Justin, to probably 4,000 BC, maybe longer. This is a long time. Yeah, it's been around a really long time. They took DNA from a corpse from old Jerusalem,

and they figured that it had leprosy from the DNA. Okay. What, it was missing some skin. Yeah, ancient scientists. Yeah, I think it's just like a bet. Like, hey, I bet they have leprosy. They had leprosy, where's his nose? We've heard a lot about it.

Somebody had to have it. I have leprosy, I don't know. It misses some stuff. He don't look good. Well, yeah. it's a mommy. Thousands of years old. And all throughout history, different, you know,

Hippocrates talked about it in 460. I mean, this is probably one of our oldest and most discussed diseases throughout history. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those that pops up in the Bible, a decent amount. Absolutely. Yeah.

To an extent where you kind of start to seem like half the people had it, it comes up a lot. Do you know where the word leprosy comes from? Come on, Sid. Obviously not. OK. So there are two possibilities. There's the Indo-European term, lap, which

means the removal of scales. So they thought, because of some of the appearance of some of the skin lesions that perhaps that could be where it's from, or from lepera, which is the Greek word for scales. I mean, I figure that it's probably from the same common root, both things. But anyway, that's where the word leprosy comes from.

And again, that's because of the appearance of the some of the skin Now there are a lot of before I kind of tell you the history Let me just say that a lot of people don't really understand what leprosy causes like what the disease leprosy What how that manifests in a person shameful? It's like read a book, you know, right? They think it's like, you know When they nick themself shaving, or maybe jelly. Possibly, I don't know, I think you disagree. But there's a lot of misconception about people having leprosy and like losing body parts.

And I don't know that I just think people, people's vision of leprosy is not quite what it was or is today. Okay, well, clear it up for us. So what is it, what does leprosy is not quite what it was or is today. Okay, well clear that for us. So what is it, what does leprosy really look like? Okay, so there are different forms, so it depends on which form of leprosy you have, but it could just present as some like a numb pale patches on your skin. Some areas on your skin where the color changes and they become numb because it also damages nerve tissue.

You can have areas which actually, you know, the skin becomes thickened and scaly and forms nodules. There is possibility of like nasal deformity and you can lose, you know, parts of your, like the nasal structure, parts of your nose as a result. And then you can have weakness as well and kind of this diffuse like nervous system involvement where your hands and feet and legs and arms eventually become numb or weak or you know the nerves become damaged. But that's that's very different from I think what we picture. And again it depends on the patient and it depends on which form you have.

And again, it depends on the patient and it depends on which form you have. It's really slow growing this disease. It has a super long incubation period. So it's really hard to figure out when people got it. It's usually three to five years that you carry it around before you ever have a symptom. Wow. But it's here saying I could have it right now and just not know. Oh, that's not. Possibly.

Probably not. Okay. Why not? Because this is interesting. Do you know that about 95% of the population is not susceptible to infection? That does make me feel better. Slightly better. I think that's a pretty staggering statistic because I got the same impression that, like, biblically, everybody had leprosy.

Basically. But just, it has to do as much with your immune system's reaction to the bacterium as it does to the disease itself. So like I said, 95% of people are not, you know, even after coming to contact with it, are not going to actually become infected. It's transmitted by nasal droplets. It usually has to be long sustained contacts.

You gotta hang around people a long time. So it's not something that you're just gonna pass somebody in a hallway and get. There's some evidence that maybe broken skin too, but it's not easy to get and it's not common. Got it. Okay, I'm feeling better. I'm feeling comfortable discussing this now. And you can only get it from humans, maybe armadillos.

Wait, what? Well, I don't know that there are actually any cases of armadillo to human transmission, but I do think it's interesting that armadillos in this country, in the US, happen to be a natural reservoir for leprosy. A rich vein of natural leprosy. Just the way mom used to make.

That's their greatest defense mechanism. I had to, a reservoir, like waiting to start it. Well, no, that's a term. Is it a term? Yeah. Okay. The armadillos are reservoirs. It's kind of sciency.

It's a little jargon for my taste. Sorry. I prefer to just paint all armadillos with a broad brush and call them what they are, which is demonic spreaders of pestilence. I know you're game. You think it's a cute way to roll up into a ball, like a giant pill bug?

I'm onto your armadillos. It's great because that's the only thing that's keeping us from all wanting to hug and cuddle armadillos. Of course, it's the leprosy. Otherwise, there's such cuddly creatures. God, if I cuddle armadillos, of course, is the leprosy. Otherwise, they're such cuddly creatures. God, if I saw an armadillo in real life, I would already lose my mind, but now I'm going to see that, that, that, that roly-poly guy and think, Oh, man, you got leprosy. Are you afraid of armadillos?

I'm pretty afraid of all wildlife, but especially armadillos are very foreign. They're like little dinosaurs. You should have seen once there was a raccoon out on our fire scape and Justin saw it. It was a raccoon there where I am a human. I thought he was going to lose his mind. It was just there in my trash. Oh my god, I can't think about that. They look so cute. They're a little mad. I can't think about it. It's like a furry brother. I can't think about that right now. I're like, I can't think about it. I can't think about it. It's like a furry brother. I can't think about that right now. I'm trying to do a call you podcast,

and you're making a live this traumatic experience. I'm sorry. How you like it? All right, let's talk about the Bible. Finally. Let's move into something. I think I might steer you to the raccoons. Let's move into something that's not controversial at all.

Yeah. Let's talk about religion. In the Bible, you know, it divides leprosy into clean leprosy and unclean leprosy, which are not actual medical categories of any significance. Unclean leprosy was probably leprosy. When they talk about a patient who had unclean leprosy, that probably was the real deal. They talked about changes in their skin, losing, again, losing body parts, probably focusing on the nose because that is something that can happen, but big skin lesions.

So when they referred to somebody who had that, that they probably got it right. Then they talked about clean leprosy. Clean leprosy. The decaf of the leprosy. The decaf of the leprosy. These people were treated differently. If you had unclean leprosy, you would not get around these people. They were completely quarantined off from the rest of society. If they touched anything that you owned, you would burn it.

Clean leprosy was not treated the same way. These were people who just had their skin lost its pigment. So maybe this actually included some people who had leprosy, but it also probably included a lot of people who had Vidaligo. What's Vidaligo? It's a skin condition where people with darker pigment, skin lose the melanin. Like Michael Jackson. Okay. Yeah.

And so people would become paler. And so there were probably a lot of people who actually just had ventiligo who were thrown into this category. Does it seem fair? And this is common. There's a lot of stuff that's discussed in the Bible and then, you know, from the years that follow and the time periods that follow, that was called leprosy, that again probably wasn't. Sariasis was mistaken for leprosy. Teneacapetus or a fungal infection

of the scalp because you would lose a patch of hair and it didn't look very pleasant. They thought that was leprosy. There are all kinds of fungal infections of the skin, you know, athletes probably would have been mistaken for leprosy back then. Bad spray tans, anything. Exactly. Snooki has leprosy. I knew it. That actually makes a lot of sense. She hit it in her hair. That's an armadillo up there.

Now, eventually we figured out what is and isn't leprosy in 1873 when a doctor, GH, our more, our more handsome, our more the least popular handsome mother. In Norway, discovered the cause of agent, micro bacterium leprpray, so kind of related to tuberculosis, same family there. He identified the agent that caused disease because it was actually in the 1800s, pretty rampant in Norway and Iceland and England and those regions. That's why leprosy is also known as Hanson's disease.

Did you know that? Not just, I always thought there for the gangbub sucking rat, but good to know that that I was incorrect. Yes, and Hanson's disease is not named for Hanson. What? It's not named for the band. We didn't name leprosy after the band Hanson. Right.

Why would we? We named it after that guy Hanson, you were just talking about I assume? Right. Right. Because why would we name it after the ban, Justin? Right. The premise of the show is I don't know about medicine. I'm not like a high functioning child.

I'm just making sure. I mean, I have my cognitive abilities. I mean, I'm just saying, like, why would we name it after the ban? If you like tell them, they have to do with leprosy, they didn't figure anything. Yeah, if you like held up a picture of a werewolf, I wouldn't like run behind a couch and start peeing myself.

Like I have my faculties about it. Do you remember how afraid you got a few minutes ago when I was remembering the raccoon that was on the fire escape of an apartment we lived in? So how we tried to treat this over the year, Sydney? Like a lot of the diseases we talk about on this show, leprosy was seen as a punishment or a curse from God or the gods.

You did something wrong, and now this horrible thing has been visited upon you. And so pray. Get right with God. Have holy people pray over you. Hopefully it'll go away. That's probably the oldest treatment for anything I think would be fair to say Still probably the most widely prescribed to for any for any ailment as a first line

You know, you know, that's a good point. That's probably the longest existing treatment for anything Mm-hmm. Yeah besides rub some dirt in it One of my dad's favorites and Adam also run it off Run it off Caleb run it off Or Cecil's name can able combine them Caleb Caleb the third son Caleb third son Caleb I Don't I don't know his story. No, but he does that must have just been that was just in your Baptist Bible He was as it turns out in our bed. Hello a lot of people don't know his story Nobody does that must have just been that was just in your Baptist Bible He was as it turns out in our Madillo a lot of people don't know that about Caleb head leprosy

It was very sad he terrified Justin in his later years Scary Bible story is not Shadrach Misha can a minute ago as you may have assumed rather Caleb the armadillo half man half Armadillo Caleb half armadillo. Okay, I love the armadillo, it's my favorite veggie tail. All right, this is goofy, move on. Come on, go, I'll sit right here. So if prayer doesn't work, what else?

Let's try blood. That's what everybody likes to try, right? Good first line, it seems very, there's a lot of power. We just signed to it, I think. Yeah, absolutely, and the Greeks tried it, the Egyptians, the Chinese, they all tried blood for leprosy.

You could either rub it on, you know, the affected areas, or you could drink it. Okay. Originally, the blood you would prefer, virgin blood, or perhaps child blood. Mm, mm. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, we didn't have like a great way of getting that blood out.

We didn't have like cool syringes and things. No, cool syringes. Yeah. Like ones that kids would like. No, I don't mean like small ponies on them. I just mean power rangers or something. No, not like decals or like just in the way that syringes would have been cool

to crow magnons fact then. No, I like decals. In the way that syringes would have been cool to crow magons fact then. No, I don't want to think about where the virgin and child blood came from. In, I guess in a more humane period, we switched to animal blood. I still don't know that's humane. So lamb or dogs blood was used. Do you know that this carried on until 1790? That's a long time. Yeah, we kind of took a breather on treating lupurcy, huh? Yeah, a lot of a lot of blood. Now there were other things thrown in there from time to time. Snake venom was a popular a popular suggestion, especially cobra. And you know who's a big fan of that. Let me guess.

Guess. Plenty, the elder. You're gonna say it right now, aren't you? Apparently it's plenty, folks. So apparently our friend Plenty, the elder, is actually Plenty, the elder. But I think we, can we stick with Plenty? I prefer Plenty.

It's so much funnier. Yeah, it's much funnier. Think about it, Plenty. Plenty. Pl Yeah, it's much funnier. Think about it, Pliny. Pliny. Pliny, because it's from Pliny, I think it's a shortened, anyway, Pliny. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm wrong.

If you all like it, go find another metal hit, podcast. I'm wrong, but I'm sticking with Pliny. Let's go with it. If you don't have a snake, I know. You could try some scorpion venom, perhaps a poisonous frog, or there was some kind of climbing fish that you could use that had some kind of venom. Okay. That's horrifying, but oh, how fish can climb

now in their poisonous fan tap. Just this thing to take my mind off my leprosy. And you know if they are poisonous climbing fish, they definitely exist in Neohyro River. Yeah, absolutely. We definitely have them here. Four eyes. Yeah. You know, eventually this would morph into increasing doses of bee stings. What?

You don't want to try snake venom. Let's just sting you with a bunch of bees and see if it makes your leprosy. I'm going to tuck my mind off my leprosy. Yeah, leprosy was the worst of my problem. What could it be? Hey, was that the secret story that was going on in my girl? That would be a treasure. And I will not have it denigrated on this or any other progress.

Sorry. Do you remember scarification we talked about that once before? Wasn't it like a, so you do with like a sharp metal thing? Yeah, sharp metal thing. You cut people and scar them and make damage the skin. It's in the family of, of a treponation, right? That's not when we talked about it. Yeah, I think we did talk about it in treponation.

You could do it with or without arsenic, however you prefer. I'll take with the cut. So cut people off and, or cut people up and then pour arsenic in their wounds. None for me, thanks. In the middle ages, they tried castration, which probably to be fair was as much to prevent them from having children as to actually try to fix it. Did you pass that way? Huh?

Did you do a pass that way? Did it pass genetically? No, it doesn't. Okay. You could go past that one, it would pass genetically. No, it doesn't. One very popular treatment for decades was Chalmugra oil. Chalmugra oil. A lot of people have probably heard of this. It's from a tree.

There's some confusion over which tree, but the important thing for you to know is it's from a tree. The active ingredient is hiddenocarpic acid. I don't know if it has a much fatty acids in it too. And that acid is antibacter anti-bacterial. It really is. So the thought was that you could either like turn it into a mixture like suspended in gum or an emulsion or something,

you could put it on topically. They tried to give it to people orally, but it made you really, really nauseous. When that didn't work, they tried to give it to people rectally, but it made you really, really nauseous. When that didn't work, they tried to give it to people rectally. Don't know if that would have been my next move. No, me neither. But that was bad, because then it caused ulcers. I don't know if this is a good solution.

So instead they started injecting it into people IV or intravenously or intramuscularly. They, you know, did it work or not? I don't know. There's some information that maybe it was successful at times, maybe for a little bit. It didn't help in the long run, probably, but there it was some evidence that maybe, I mean, and this was used for quite a long time,

like all the way up until we had actual medications for leprosy before using chamaud oil. It's interesting. It seems like because of the, now this is just like a, this is again some of my classic speculation, but it seems to me that perhaps the biblical stigma, because it was so, had such a reputation of being connected to being dirty or being unclean that maybe we weren't as, because these are really long for treatments. We don't normally cling to stuff like this

that isn't working for like centuries. That maybe there wasn't the rush to try to treat it and take care of it. I think you're, I think that's a very good point, because as I looked for a lot of different treatments, I didn't find the usual just lists and lists of weird stuff that we gave people to eat or drink or paste all over their body. Usually I look up these illnesses and I find just pages and pages of, and then try this tree and then try this plant. It's not out there as far as I can tell for leprosy. We found this chalmugra oil, which seemed to work maybe and we stuck with it for a long time.

There are a handful of other weird treatments in there. But sadly, I think because you're right, for a long time, it was seen as the patient's fault. So they did something wrong that they were dirty in some way. They were cursed or something. And then the other thing, the last thing I kind of want to talk about, I guess, in terms of treatment, although this isn't really a treatment, it was one of the things that was done for people who had leprosy, it was quarantine. It was very common all throughout history that if you had leprosy you were kept away from the general population The reasoning for this was twofold

One to protect everybody else from you because you know the belief was that leprosy was very contagious In reality, it wasn't but the the fear was that if you touched someone with leprosy you would get it right Which would treat right up as inaccurate right? But the fear was that if you touched someone with leprosy, you would get it. Right. Would you write that sentence inaccurate? Right. But then it also was because of the stigma against people with leprosy, they were a common target of violence. Oh, wow.

And murder. So keeping people with leprosy in quarantine was also for their protection. If they weren't in quarantine, they had to, especially throughout the Middle Ages, where bells or clappers, as they were to ring or to, you know, clap together as they were moving through crowds so that people would know they were coming and be able to move away from them. That's actually what the summer's overbells were for it and about. Did you know that? No, it's not. It's not, but you could, what if it was? What a twist out of it. That's a good story though. Yeah, I'm gonna just keep saying

it. Keep saying it until somebody bleeds it. That's how legends begin. Justin makes them up. I make them up. You're welcome. They even, depending on which way the wind was blowing, they had to walk on a certain side of the street so that people wouldn't have to breathe the rain to the blue past them. I know. I know. They already have leprosy. So which is why so many people ended up in leprosylums or leprosariums is what they

were called. They started in the 13th century all the way through to the 20th century. We had these. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, all across Europe and Asia and eventually into the US. At their peak, there were probably 19,000 in existence at one time. There were colonies, especially some of them in the monastic order, so a monastery would kind of sponsor a colony of people who had leprosy, so they didn't actually have to be in

a building, because a lot of these places had leprosy. So they didn't actually have to be in a building because a lot of these places were similar to like psychiatric asylums. They were called leprosy colonies. And the idea was that we would just have like a little community where you could only live if you had leprosy. Sid, do you think that at least one of those colonies,

they learned martial arts. How sweet would that have been? Why would that have been sweet? Just like imagine it. An army of people with leprosy and you're like, hey, look at the leopard. Then he was like, what did you say to me? And it's like, just did martial arts all over him? I just think that would be a sweet movie. I just wanna tell you that I thought

that would be a sweet movie. Well, maybe. Who knows what those monks were up to? Yeah, that's what I wanted to hear. Thank you. I mean, hey. Maybe, right? Maybe they were teaching martial arts

amongst no other. So the box, right? Did you games have taught me that all monks know martial arts? They make beer. I think. They probably know martial arts. I can't get the train people with leprosy to kill. You get drunk me that all monks know martial arts? They make beer. I think they probably know martial arts. I can't get the trained people with leprosy to kill. You get drunk.

You want to do some martial arts. Why not? A lot of that was based on the reason that monks got involved is that they thought that someone who had leprosy was actually in purgatory on earth. That their suffering was holier than the suffering of other sick people because having leprosy was a way that you had already died but you were stuck on earth so you were in purgatory. Well, they were certainly holier. Really?

Unacceptable. It's fair enough. Unacceptable. That was my one. That was my only one. That's the only one you get. I'm fair enough. Unacceptable. That was my one. That's the only one you get. I'm so sorry. Just one.

There was actually a group of monks that were specifically founded for the care of people with leprosy and also made up of people with leprosy called the Order of St. Lazarus, in which you probably get that reference. You're a good little. Yeah, that's like a super popular one. It's like classic. So I have a Lazarus Justin for those who don't know. He died. Uh-huh. Of Lebracy. No. And just died. He just died. Eddie Jesus right back. Right. So that would make sense that they would

call it the order of St. Lazarus if they thought that people with leprosy were dead on earth. Yeah. So people who did stay in asylums, who weren't in colonies, but in asylums, were usually separated by gender in order to prevent children because the children of leprosy, who were seen as a sin against God, unfortunately. Like I said, this eventually happened in the US. The biggest was in Carville, Louisiana,

and it was just known as, I forget what it was called. It was just known as Carville eventually. So gone to Carville was probably a good euphemism for somebody with leprosy. Remember we had gone to Dwight for somebody who was getting a plane off alcohol. You're gone to Carville if you got leprosy. And while in most parts of the world

in the mid-1900s with the invention of the drugs we used today for leprosy, a lot of these things stopped, there weren't leprosariums anymore. In some parts of the world persisted in Japan, there was one open until 2008. Wow. Which I think is pretty crazy.

And there are still possibly, I don't know, as of the last thing I read, possibly there's still a handful of people left in the silence all over the world with leprosy. Ugh. If anybody knows if that's true for sure, let me know, but I mean, that's, if you're so in a leprosy and you're in an asylum

and you're able to see this podcast first off, that's a pretty chill of the island. Congratulations, that's one of the good ones. You may just want to chill there. But if not just send us an email, sobans at maximumfund.org. I don't know if that's if that's correct, but from what I've read there there may still be people treated that way. Yeah, which of course is not necessary. Today we have treatments. we have a cure for leprosy. Oh, great. The first modern treatment that was invented was called Promin. It was quickly replaced with better drugs,

DAPSON, Clophazamine, refampin. Those three are used in triple therapy today, much like tuberculosis, if anybody's familiar with it, we use multiple drugs to treat it. You don't just get one. Leprosy is the same way. So we use these medications today with great effectiveness. Leprecy is still around, which a lot of people don't know.

There are probably, as of 2012, there were 180,000 cases. That was the prevalence. The incidence of leprosy, do you know the difference? I do not. The incidence is how many cases we have each year. No, okay. The prevalence is how many cases total exist right now. Oh, right.

So incidence is tough with leprosy because it hangs around. Right, so it's how it's telling exactly when it happened. Yeah, when it happened. But it still exists, mostly in India, Brazil, Nepal, Tanzania, most of the... Can we just treat everybody? Um, we can. Seems like we was saying. We just treat everybody. We can.

Seems like we just wipe this thing out. You know, there are a lot of movements to do that, a lot of organizations, money and good people putting their time into trying to eradicate leprosy. I don't think it's an unrealistic goal. I think with it being a primarily human disease, that makes it possible. That's why smallpox was easier to eradicate because it was a human disease.

So I think it's possibility we've got good treatments. We've just still got work to do. If I need to wipe every armadillo of the face of this planet, so oh my god, I'll do it. I think the armadillos would be law on my list. I'd start with treating all the people with leprosy. And remembering that leprosy is just another illness that people unfortunately can get.

And it's no, should be no more stigmatized than the common cold. So that's leprosy, Sydney. I will take your word for it that I do not have it. Yeah, do you believe me now? I do believe you and I'm sorry that I doubted you in your medical acumen, it will, well it will, it will definitely happen again.

I hope that I know the difference between leprosy and jelly. I do teach in a medical school and I'd probably lose my job if I didn't. You've never seen it, right? Leprosy? No, I've never seen leprosy. If you do, let me know. If I do trust me, I will.

Well, I'll probably write it up if I see a case of Left Presented in Huntington. Okay, good. Well, I'll look forward to reading. That would probably be worthy of a case report that I'm not sure. I'll look forward to reading that report. And I'll look forward to reading your emails

that you send to us at sawbonesamactsmumfund.org. You can suggest a show there. Did anybody suggest this episode? What is this from your mind's eye? Actually yes, Justin. Somebody did recommend this episode. Vanessa. Thank you, Vanessa.

So thank you. Very kind of you. Uh, please do email those because there are a lot of these here to keep track of if you, uh, rather than see just the amount of Twitter. But if you want to tweet about our show, you are certainly welcome to we're at saw bones And thank you to people tweeting about our show like ninja glamour makeup Chris Willoughby Diana Delana sky max sporks and click has I guess Kaley Kaz

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stop podcasting yourself, judge John Hodgman, Wambam, Pow, Wambam, Mother. My brother, my brother and me. Oh, thank you, Cindy. I appreciate that. There's a ton of members that shows over there, you can go discuss them all at Maximumfund.org

and go to our forums where you can chat about our most recent episode. Thank you, they do the taxpayers. A band that makes the music, the year at the beginning, and- So gracious. We're sure- They allow us to use it. They're the taxpayers on Twitter, so just follow them and buy all their music and that's going to do for us make sure you join us again next Tuesday for another episode of Saw Bones.

Until then I'm just Mac Roy. I'm Sydney Mac Roy. And as always don't drill a hole. Alright! Maximumfund.org Comedy and Culture, Artistone, Listener Supported. culture, artist owned. Listener supported.