Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Our Mental Health Stories

Episode Date: June 14, 2018

This week on Sawbones, Dr. Sydnee and Justin talk about their struggles with mental health. Trigger warning for discussion of depression, anxiety and suicide. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saubones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. I'm your co-host Justin Madden. Hello everybody and welcome to Saul Bones,

a marital tour of Miss Guy to Medicine. I'm your co-host Justin McAroy. And I'm Sydney McAroy. Welcome to a very special episode of Saul Bones. It's hard for me to not be like Wicked Goofy at the beginning. I guess, well, there's not going to be dour. We're going to have a dour episode. But we're at his point more serious. I guess, well, there's not gonna be dour. We're gonna have a dour episode, but we're out here for more.

More serious. More serious, more personal. And maybe overdue. I don't know, maybe, I don't know. We, so. We're not breaking up like that one, you two couple. No worries there. Why is it when you said maybe overdue?

That's the next thing that came into your mind. We're waiting for the long time to see me. I don't know what you're referencing, but I'll take your word for it. Riley will, ask Riley. So we have on-sau bones, we usually talk about medical history, but occasionally we share more personal stories

that are medical, adjacent, are burst stories in particular. When they're relevant, maybe to current issues or topics that are important or things that maybe by talking about, especially as people who have kind of a platform, maybe by talking about them, we help destigmatize them or make them a little more approachable. And that's what this episode is about. So, yeah, and obviously if you, if you, we don't want to dwell on this too much because they're, I don't necessarily think of these as the same sort of like hat and hand. It's

definitely what and sort of got us thinking about it. But there've been several high profile suicides. And as you I'm certainly have heard. And this is not to, we are not trying to prescribe, like we say that in the disclaimer, but I think that's doubly important here. And we're certainly not trying to indicate, you know, what other people were feeling in any given time. We're not really trying to believe it. We have no idea. No idea. No idea.

And there's no judgment here. It is literally just us talking about our own stories because we do feel like, regardless of anything else, destigmatization of mental health is important and people wouldn't feel hesitant or awkward about talking about breaking their legs or, you know, whatever, IBS. So, sure. Well, maybe IBS. But definitely one concern is that the stigmatization of mental illness prevents people at times from seeking care. Right. Because of the concern of what everybody else would think of them. And the hope is that if we all are a little more open and share our stories

that will realize eventually that a lot of us have struggled with mental illness before and then maybe it won't be you know something you feel you need died. If you can see that even your podcasting heroes have chinks in their mental armor um then maybe maybe there's a way for you to get help. So obviously let this serve as a trigger warning for the rest of the episode. We're both going to be sharing our personal issues in the past with mental health. And if that is something that is triggering for you or you don't want to listen to right

now, totally understandable, but that will be the episode. So let's start with you, Sidney McRoy. And let me ask you before we actually get into it, about your own sort of feelings about talking about mental health, because as a physician, I think there's an extra level of sort of stigma and even some institutionalized that goes along with it. They're definitely is. It's a little hard for me. And let me clarify, I encourage people on a daily basis in my job to talk about their

own mental health issues with me constantly. And I encourage people to talk to their networks of support. So it's really easy, I mean, for me to say, of course, I want everybody to feel open and talk about it and share this information. And I certainly want people to with me if I'm their doctor. But to flip that around and say,

how do I feel about talking about my own issues in the past? It's really difficult. I feel kind of hypocritical because one, I am supposed to be a sounding board for other people to help them come to terms with what they might be struggling with and find a path to healing. And as such, it is difficult for me to admit that maybe I don't always have it all together. And then there's also the concern within the medical world that if you are part of certain kinds of support groups as physicians, as medical professionals, some of that stuff can be reported to licensing boards. And that's the kind of thing you have to report forever because I renew my license every

other year. And that's a little concerning if you are worried that people on the other end of that might judge you or demure Not suitable to be hired or something. So it's a little concerning as a medical professional to to kind of reveal those things And I think it keeps a lot of people in the medical world from seeking Professional help when they need it actually there. I just we just did a faculty retreat where we talked about physician burnout and an astounding number of physicians in this country are experiencing severe burnout. They're coping mechanisms. If you look at the ways that doctors choose to cope, the majority of them are incredibly

unhealthy. Not all exercises on there, but the majority of them are unhealthy. And the likelihood that they will seek help is fairly low. And it varies from professional, like specialty to specialty, but it's fairly low. Doctors are suffering and they're suffering silently by and large. When I don't know exactly how you would typify your own struggles with mental health. But when at what point would you say you realized, hey, something is off here. I would say, I mean, I think we can all look at different moments in our life where in

retrospect, we go, oh, I was really struggling with much or diagnosed or treated in any way. But after Charlie was born, was the first time that I really realized something was wrong. I think a lot of it stemmed from the fact that, and this is a common story you're here from people who have given birth and maybe things didn't go as they had hoped they would go. I think that was the the beginning and we have a whole episode about it. So I won't belabor the point, but Charlie's birth was scary and I had a C section that I did not plan on and I had to spend a lot more time away from Charlie in the beginning because of the NICU experience. And it was all very scary and stressful. And when we finally got home, while I felt a great deal of relief, I also felt initially mainly anger, a lot of anger. I felt like

something had been taken from me, an opportunity, a chance, an experience that I had expected, that I felt like I was entitled to. I made it through the whole pregnancy. It was very hard. I was very swollen. I was ready for what I was ready for the birth experience. You only have a couple beers a night and it's like, uh, I wasn't. Let me clear. I was not. And I was, I was ready for that. And I didn't get it. And then Charlie was taken away from me and kept away from me and I couldn't touch her like I needed to and All of my every instinct I had everyone in my life was telling me not everyone in my life all the people who were in charge of my daughter were telling me it was wrong and I And I felt so angry and

Then I felt guilty for feeling so angry because here. I'm sitting there in my home I felt guilty for feeling so angry because here I'm sitting there in my home with my husband and my daughter who, thank goodness, was fine at this point, who was fine and perfect and wonderful and we had wanted so much for so long. And I'm looking at her and instead of just feeling love and elation and gratitude, I was feeling anger. And then under the anger, there was this nothingness, this just nothing. No happiness, no joy, it was just this pit of rage and at the bottom of it was nothing. And it crept up on me at first. I knew that I was angry, but it wasn't until several weeks after Charlie was born, that it really started to eat at me.

I'm not happy. And I'm acting happy and I'm talking happy and I'm saying I'm happy and I'm smiling and I'm making baby noises and I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to do. And underneath it all I've got nothing. And I didn't want to tell anybody. I didn't want to tell anybody because I thought people will look at me and say you monster. What how could you feel that way? Look at your child. You gave birth to this child. What is wrong with you? And and I going back to work when I did only compounded that. Yeah, you started back about what was it? six Who's shorter than yeah about six six or seven weeks because a week of it was gone to the NICU right? Yeah, you know to you but sometimes people come to turn it to leave vacation

And I always think about that first week of my first maternity leave. And I want to say is, is that a vacation to you? Um, how did it sort of impact your, your daily life, such as it was? Um, I think, I think for a while, I was, the numbness is what overcame everything. I mean, I just went through all the motions. I just kept doing the things I knew I was supposed to do. And any time I would start to really get, like, really start to face how nothing I was feeling.

I was fit what it was as an hedonia. That's what I was feeling Well, that's that's the term for it and I know that now like I knew that at the time But I wasn't able to put a word on it. What does that mean? It was the inability to feel pleasure Okay, I just couldn't I couldn't know things that I loved that I enjoyed my daughter that was my world I could not feel joy. It was impossible. It was just it was beyond my reach. Obviously, I didn't, I mean, the other symptoms of depression were there. My energy was low, but I blamed that on the fact that I was up every two hours, breastfeeding. So of course, my energy's low. And I was working an almost full-time job that's incredibly emotionally draining

sometimes. Of course, I have no energy. And my eating and sleeping habits were all over the place, but we had a newborn. So, of course. And I was tearful a lot, but I'm emotional. I just had a baby, of course, I feel like. I mean, I wrote, I did all the things that I can easily see in another person when they're telling it, when they're telling me these things,

I can easily see through the ruse and say, you were depressed and you were trying every way in the world to write it off and talk yourself out of it, but this is what's going on. I did it all and I let myself ignore it. And I think the main thing that started interrupting my life was really the, it wasn't just anger, it was rage. I mean, that I felt, I felt there were times where I would lay in bed at night and I would be awake

staring at the ceiling just furious, just like clenching teeth, clinching my fists. I mean, just every, as tense as could be as if I was in the middle of a screaming match or something. You're, I'm not obviously looking for names here, but was that targeted at certain people, or was it just sort of a general feeling? Sometimes it would be targeted at people. I would have, I used to do this in the shower all the time. As soon as I would get in the shower, I would start imagining what I wanted to say to the people who I felt had made

that whole experience so scary. And so not what I thought it should be. And I would work myself up as I was showering, thinking about, I would say this and I would say this and then I would make sure to make this point. And by the time I'd get out of the shower, I would be, instead of you think like, as especially as like a new mom, like what a relaxing escape, I'm gonna go in and take a shower. And I would come out of the shower just seething. Just, and I mean, that was under the surface all the time.

It was hard at work because there's a lot in what I do that becomes stressful and that you have to have your emotions in check. And I had this like, after a few months, I had this simmering anger underneath the surface all the time. We touched on part of the reason a little bit, but broadly speaking, why did you decide not to seek outside help? I think there were several reasons. Other than what we've already talked about one the major one was just I really felt a lot of shame That I was that I felt that way I felt incredibly

and I felt incredibly guilty. I thought that I was Betrain Charlie in some way to admit that I was anything Charlie in some way to admit that I was anything but ecstatic. And every time I would start to have those feelings, I would just hug her tighter and hold her and kiss her and sing to her and tell her how much I love her and like anything to try to hide the way I was feeling from her as as if she knew. But that was the biggest thing. And I mean, the other part is the thing everybody uses

as an excuse for not taking care of themselves. I just felt like I didn't have the time to take care of myself. I didn't have the time to put myself on the list of things to do. I was working so much and trying to be a full-time mom when I wasn't a full-time mom. I was trying to do it anyway. And I was so stressed about that getting anybody who's breastfed that whole keeping up with demand and making sure that you're pumping enough for when you're not there, but that you're not pumping too close to coming home.

So you have milk when you come home So you never have that moment when your baby's trying to nurse and they you don't have milk for them Because that feels awful that whole thing is so stressful and the idea of taking an hour out of my life To go talk to a doctor talk to a therapist do any of that it just seemed insurmountable Which which is an excuse. It's an excuse. I mean, I, and I recognize all that now because I'm fine now.

I didn't have this problem after Cooper was born. I feel good. I feel the normal stress. I feel the normal worries and anxieties and fears, but nothing beyond that. How did you get to that point? I mean, I would love to say that there was something that turned it around. I think I did it the hard way.

I know that there's an easy way. I don't mean that there's an easy way. I think I did it the way that I would never advise a patient to do it, which is I just hoped that I would get better eventually. I gritted my teeth and I talked about parts of it with you and with my mom, parts of it. Yeah. There's a lot of this, it's worth mentioning

that I'm hearing for the the first time now the the stuff that I didn't talk about the stuff that I was really embarrassed to be feeling I just I kind of followed that fake it till you make it kind of thought process If I just keep pretending that I'm okay eventually I I'll be okay. And I mean, luckily I was eventually okay, but I think it's worth saying, if anyone else is considering like, well, maybe that's the best way to deal with this. It's not, I lost so many days

when Charlie was little to that. I mean, I was there, but I wasn't there. I'd, there are chunks of time that I don't even feel like I remember well because I was so, I was just, I was on a razor's edge all the time of not functioning. And, and I think I lost a lot of happiness that I could have had in that period of time. How would you differentiate, obviously something really terrible happened to you. And you've talked about how you sort of emotionally responded to it. How do you differentiate or do you differentiate sort of the way you are feeling? How does it cross a line into mental health, mental illness outside of your upset, you were

upset about something? I mean, I think the biggest thing was that it ate into all of my time and all of my feelings constantly. I mean, I was consumed with it. I was obsessed with my anger and my frustration and I, like, and I had the symptoms of depression. Like I said, I was, I was sad. I cried. I, you know, I, like, I had no energy. I couldn't, I lost interest in things that I cared about. I couldn't feel pleasure anymore. I, I mean, all the things that make up depression,

all of that with the exception of it, and I should say this too, I never had thoughts of hurting myself. That was not part of it for me. The darkest parts for me were in acceptance, the hopelessness, I should say that, the hopelessness, I will never feel better again. I mean, that's the problem with mental health, right?

Like your brain is the only one that you have. You don't have a second one to process your mental state. And so for you, it could seem like this is all life is from now on. Sid, what do you, when you look back at that time now, and I'm not even really asking, like, what advice you'd give to other people in the same situation, because you know, I would have given people the advice to not do any of the things I was doing up to that point. Right, don't. I do.

I constantly give that advice. Don't do what I was doing. But what do you honestly right here and right now? What do you wish that you had done differently? I wish I wish I would have started out by talking to you. I wish I would have told, because I feel like I was not gonna go seek help on my own. But I think if I had told you honestly how I was feeling, you probably would have made me.

And I mean, that in a good way. Was that a fear that you would make me? Yeah. Yeah, because I didn't want, I didn't want to admit it was a problem. I didn't want to say it like it was something to be diagnosed with. I wanted it to be, well, I'm just having a tough time right now, and it'll be fine. And that was the end of it. And I really didn't want to,

and I also kind of thought that as long as I wasn't having any thoughts of hurting myself, well, then it's not worth bothering with. I wouldn't do that. There's no way I would do that. I'm terrified of that. This child needs me so much. So as long as I feel that way, I guess I'm fine.

I rationalized it. I mean, you can talk yourself into and out of just about anything if you really want to. And that's what I did. I talked myself out of believing it was a problem. I talked myself into believing that I had it under control. And none of that was true, but I was able to rationalize it. And that's what I would do differently. I wish I could go back and tell you honestly how I was feeling because then I think you would have forced me to to go talk to somebody and I think I would have gotten through things a lot faster and with a lot fewer days lost

to sadness if I had talked to somebody about it. lost to sadness if I had talked to somebody about it. We are going to talk about hoops and kind of my thing, not super-look-a-forward to it, but that is what we are here to do, so that is what we shall do. But first, Sydney, I am going to carry you here, hop on my shoulders, we're heading over to the billing department. Let's go. The medicines, the medicines that ask you lift my car before the mouth. I'm ready, you were in the hot seat for a good long while.

That's right. So Justin, I think you have been a little more public about your struggles with mental illness. Try to be. Try to be. I think anybody who follows you on Twitter has heard you reference it before. Yep. But I don't know how in depth you've ever talked about things.

Um, gosh. Okay. So the first time that I knew something was up, I was a little kid, actually. And I was lying in bed trying to go to sleep, and my parents were trying to get me to sleep, and I was probably like 11 or 10, and I have a very clear memory of this.

I was crying, and my parents kept asking me, like, what's wrong? Like, what's wrong? Like, what was wrong? And I told them that I had a lot of quests in Final Fantasy, like so many quests that I had to worry about. And I had to finish, I had a lot of quest

to finish in Final Fantasy. And that is what had stressed me to the point of tears. And I think that that's when I was like, oh man, something's off, something's not right. But I would say that, so I was always sort of like, definitely a socially anxious person. That's not really part and parcel

with what we're talking about, but in my head they're kind of related. There's this idea that fuels a lot of my anxiety of things are definitely going to be bad. And they're definitely going to go a lot worse than they ever will. And that's, I think that that feeds into the social thing, right? For me, that it's always about like, what if I say the dumbest possible thing at the worst possible moment and it, they scream at me and yell at me and call me an idiot?

So sure. So that which is, which is why you, is that why you always bailed on parties the way you did. Uh, yeah, I kind of felt like if I could string together a solid 45 minutes, then I should just quit while I'm ahead. Just and was just and was known classically for disappearing in the middle of a party. We just you'd turn around. It's like wait a a second, we're just gonna go. We're just gonna go, just dipped. But I did not actually seek medical or sort of like any sort of intervention until the stress just got,

and I guess, stress, because I almost kind of forgotten that this happened, but this is about, I mean, almost 10 years ago at this point where I was really worried about, I started worrying about mortality a lot, and it was just before we were going to go to Honduras for a month. And I was really, it was like a completely different experience that I've never sort of gone through anything like that at that point in my life and hugely stressed about it.

And it triggered this sort of like mortality panic. And that was really, that was something that I really struggled with in hindsight, now looking back on that specific factor of my anxiety, I kind of see that as like a very normal human thing to go through. I think it's something that everybody kind of has to go through. I think it's something that everybody kind of has to go through. Not on the level that I went through it for sure. Yeah, I think I think there were definitely because I don't know if you remember in particular when I first realized that you really there really was a problem. When? What you'd used to do. What? You used to wake you used to wake me up at night to make sure I was alive. Yeah. There was a while where you would wake me up periodically because you were checking to make sure I was breathing. Yeah. And that and I remember that's probably not typical. No, no. Well, that was when I, it first occurred to me. I think, I think some, this is going beyond, oh Justin's just kind of anxious today to Justin has anxiety. There's something going on.

So I sort of got under control for a little bit and then we found out we were pregnant. And so I actually didn't think about this pattern until we decided we were going to record it, but Claire Weekes, who's on an Australian therapist, talks about, and she sort of wrote about anxiety before we even had the term anxiety. She calls it like, sensitization, I think. You become very sensitive to things. And she says that the, that there's a, she has this idea of a synthesizing event. Something happens in your life that makes you, that can trigger a sort of, you know, outbreak, I guess, of anxiety.

Sure. And I think that, like, definitely, like that trip to Honduras at that point in my life. And the thing with the, if you have ever been a pregnant or the partner of someone who is pregnant or close to a pregnancy at all, you will know that like, especially the first 12 weeks of it are this, it was this constant panic for me. It was a constant. Every time you would yell for me, I was sure that something had gone terribly wrong.

And that was like, I think if you put yourself through that level of stress and that level anxiety over and over and over again, it for me at least, it really triggered the anxiety, something really bad. And it was brutal. For me at that point, it didn't necessarily manifest as much from the, it was definitely some of the mortality panic. I had a lot of fear of like global catastrophe, I think, would be at like war or climate change or whatever. That is something that like, I, you

know, I'm, I still suffer with, still don't like, like dwelling on too much. There is honestly, as I'm talking about it, I'm getting sort of like a little bit anxious talking about stuff because there's, I've been in a good place as of late and it definitely like makes me worry, like, I don't know, makes me nervous to talk about stuff because like I weirdly fear that I'll like go like get anxious again. I don't know. No, but that makes sense because like you pointed out earlier when I was talking about the hopelessness that you feel at depression, they're when you really accept that that's

what's happening, there is a moment where you feel like it's completely out of your control. Like it's something that happened to you and you have no, that with that hopelessness comes a feeling that you have no control of for it. There's nothing you're going to be able to do. That's not true. There are things you can do, obviously. But there is that feeling like, oh my gosh, what if this comes back and there's nothing I can do about that? For me, I decided to get help when it started to be

sort of like in every day, not just in every day thing and every moment thing. I really, I had trouble formulating thoughts that were outside of these fears. And it was impacting me sort of every single day. And I, the thing that was hardest about, the thing that's hardest about it now looking back is I know that the reason you didn't talk to me about some of the stuff that you're going through is that these two periods kind of overlapped. And I think that there was definitely a part of you that felt like you couldn't talk to me about stuff because of what I was going through.

I think there's truth to that. I think I don't want to sit here and I don't want to beat you up for that because I won that wasn't your fault and too, I still don't know that I would have talked to you about it. I still don't even if you had been a hundred percent fine and at your best. I still don't know if I would have talked to you about it. But yes, I was a little gunshide of bringing up touchy things with you because I knew, but I saw that what that did to you. I would make an offhand comment about a new story and that could really send you down a spiral.

that could really send you down a spiral. Mm-hmm. And. Yeah. It was bad. I eventually, after a few months of dealing with this, and this would have been probably around March, or so of 2014, a few months before Coup was born. March of 2014, and I just got to a point

where I had to get help and I started going to therapy and I started going once week and it was really helpful for me. That worked really well for me. And I did other things that helped to, I tried to exercise a little bit more of that stuff because I just don't like doing it And it's hard to physically just do that. It sucks to exercise. So that's not like a great cure I think I think it's helpful for some people but and it was helpful for me It's just like hey you feel bad. Do you want to feel worse? Then feel better later, but don't give yourself more credit You did something that a lot of people are afraid to do, which is run.

No, you tried things half of couch. You tried things. You weren't afraid to try things. It more so than I am in that regard. I mean, you started doing yoga. Yeah. Meditation was extremely helpful for me at that point. And I am by no means an anxiety expert.

I certainly am not a mental health expert. I can say the things that help me are one, I am always somebody who, and this is kind of part of the family I grew up in, but like always kind of thought like if I didn't feel happy, something was wrong. And the fact that I was feeling anxious about having a kid or anxious about the state of the world, both of which are like fair things to be concerned about if nothing else. I would say. Yeah, I would say. Right.

But the fact that I was concerned about them was a source of more anxiety for me. Why don't I feel happy? Why don't I feel good? And that is a, that was itself a perpetuating cycle for me. It was the more anxious I got, the more anxious I felt about being anxious, and the more, and it's almost like it became, and it's funny, you know, we talk about, you mentioned obsession and obsessiveness,

and it is not like obsessive-cropulsive disorder, but it is, I think the way your brain is unable to let go of these problematic thought patterns can feel like obsession. It can feel like, even if you're in a good moment, it's like, whoop, like it can be pulled back from you right away. It's almost like having a song stuck in your head. Wow, that's great.

Every time my brain would rest for a second, when I wouldn't be actively involved in something, the shower is the example I always use, but anything like that, I would get right back into anger and rage and sadness over Charlie's birth again. I mean, right back there. It was like it was like it was in the back

of my head playing constantly and knowing everything else got the volume turned down, I could hear it again. I think for me, it got better. When I did a few things, one, really having the realization that it is okay to feel afraid sometimes and like accepting that versus trying to think your way out of being afraid, which is what I was doing and burning

myself out in a big way, like, I think that that was hugely important to me. I think the meditation and therapy were both really good for me. Honestly, being able to find things that let me turn my brain off for a little while, I was worried at first where like, escapism or like escaping from the problems, but for me, listening to like, this is a time period at which I binged, like all of the worst idea of all time,

and I binged so much like Kermit, Mayo, Film Review Show from BBC and I would binged these shows and like it would keep my brain in a certain place and if I found if I strung enough of those together, then I had the mental wear with all to it was sort of like coming in from the cold for a little while and like you're all warmed up and you're like okay I can from the cold for a little while, and like you're all warmed up, and you're like, okay, I can handle the cold for a little bit now. I'm warmed up, I got my hot cocoa, I'm ready to go back up. And that's what it felt like for me.

And then eventually I found that I could string more of those days together. And even now talking to you, I'm trying very hard not to use words like, and so it's better, and so it's all fixed, because for me, I know that living with anxiety is something I will live with my entire life, but also the fear of the fear of falling back there, I can't have that fear. I can't have that fear of going back to

the place where I was afraid all the time. You know, like I can't be afraid of it, so I'm not trying to build myself up on a high horse. Well, and I think part of the reason that you can stay off the fear is that you have tools now. You have found things that help. You know that there are things you can do. And even if maybe those exact things don't work the same way every time, you know that something helps. I mean, that belief that there are things you can do to help is key. And even that, honestly, I mean, I also

started like taking medication, not like a, it was more of a take as needed kind of thing, not an help. Well, you had, and you take as needed kind of thing, not an... Well, you had, and you didn't really touch on this, but you know, a lot of my symptoms were very much my mood. And there were things that you couldn't see. You had physical symptoms of anxiety. Anxiety and depression have physical symptoms that we don't talk about a lot.

We tend to assume it's something else, but that it is a, it's your mind and your body are obviously connected one kind of in case is the other. And you, you had physical symptoms of anxiety. Uh, yeah. So I, I found that being knowing that I had some medication that helped that I could take as needed was also really helpful for me because it gave me something that I hadn't had for a long time and that was a sense of control. This is a time period also where I was drinking too much, I was drinking having two or three drinks a night and that's, I mean, that's not like extremely detrimental to your health, but it didn't make me feel great. And it's not great for you.

We were like, you're a long term health. No, it's obviously not. I haven't talked a lot. Can you ask me another question to get me back on track? Because I think it's like rambling at this point. Well, you said that and I would agree. I don't think it's good to say everything's fine. But you are doing a lot better now.

Yes, currently, currently, you you are doing a lot better now. Yes, currently. Currently. You're currently doing a lot better. And do you think that there are ways that, like, you can advise to maintain that? How do you keep it in check? Or at least be aware when it's not not in check. Being able to take knowing when seeing the signs of a period of anxiety coming and seeing those signs and taking the steps that I need to take care of it then. I mention that I'm doing better, and even with I'm doing better,

I'm still like going to therapy somewhat, and it's for, it's like in a different, it's not in the same context, not in the same lens, but for me, it's really helpful to like, have a checkup mentally every once in a while and just see how things are going, because it can, this is the thing,

it's your own brain is the thing that is sick. Your brain, the thing that helps you figure out how you're feeling is the thing that is not working properly. And that is like, that's tough. Like that's a lot of your body has to work together. I try to meditate, I don't really have the time to as much. I found that having like a lot of things that I'm working on has been helpful to me. This is going

to be whack, but I've realized that if I'm having periods where I'm playing like, what are probably an unhealthy amount of video games, Like I find that my anxiety gets really bad because I start to get that sense that like, oh I'm wasting my life minutes and that's, you know, I'm gonna die someday and I should really, you know, that kind of thing. So I try to be careful about stuff like that. Breathing and meditation, a lot of mindfulness,

that was really helpful. But I don't know, it's different for everybody. I mean, it sucks being there. I know it sucks. I've talked to people who are there, and it's like, I can see. It's so strange to know what they're feeling, but not really be able to get it anymore.

And that's the problem I think with talking to people that aren't going through exactly what you're going through and aren't sort of like licensed therapists or anything is like they can sort of get it. But you're not talking about I'm so mad because this person did this thing to me. No. What can I do to fix it, right? Exactly.

It's I'm so mad because I'm so mad and What do you think yeah like you know like or sad or scared or whatever But I don't hold either of us up. I am probably more inclined to The thing that I am to an unhealthy degree vigilant about anxiety because I never want to be in the position that I was at when you felt like you couldn't rely on me. And that makes me feel very vigilant about anxiety. And that makes me take it very seriously because I don't want to be in a position where I can't be what you need me to be. And then too, I mean, the kids, like that is no good to have a dad who isn't present. And when you're anxious in the way that I'm talking about, you're not present, you're in your head.

And I don't want to be there for, for you all. Well, I appreciate that. Like I said, I don't, I, I, you are not at fault for any of, any of my unwillingness to seek help because I think if, of the two of us, you definitely, like you did it right. Of our two stories. I got a little silly. Of our two stories, you did it right. I'm the cautionary tale. You mean, you took a closer to right. I didn't, I didn't, and I should have sought help,

and I didn't, and I. It had to be a little bit irritating though to have somebody who was like that sort of focused on themselves, like a little bit, especially when we had a kid, and we were both kind of pushed the limit. I can't imagine that they were there. When I was like, hey, I need to go sit in a dark room

for five minutes and breathe. And that had to be a little bit frustrating. No, there were moments, of course there were. Of course, if there were days where I was overwhelmed and it was, you know, Charlie wouldn't sleep or whatever, of course there were days where I just thought, I can't, please, I need you right now. But I also, I needed you in the big sense. I needed you to be okay.

And whatever you needed to do, whatever I could support you in doing to get you to a place where you were doing well and you were feeling okay, that was the big picture. And that's what I stayed focused on. And I think that's what I would say. If there's anybody out there listening who's like me in that your inclination is never to take care of yourself. That's, I don't know if it's how I was raised.

I don't know if it's how society programmed me. I don't know if it's me, but I never think to put myself, not only first, but like on the list of care if that is how you are You know, please please remember that you can't it's cliche. You can't take care of other people If you're not okay, and that is the thing that really motivated me to be open with, I was feeling and to think about how I was feeling, to really be in touch with it, when I was pregnant with Cooper and when Cooper was born, is because I so wasn't when Charlie was born.

And she was old enough for me to look at her and think, I don't want to go away after I give birth this time, which is what I feel like. I feel like I went away in my head. I was gone for a while and you can't do that to your children or you should try not to if you can. And I didn't want to be gone and I didn't want to be unreachable to her and to Cooper and to you. And who am I helping if I don't take care of myself so much

that I'm physically present but mentally, emotionally gone. Let's get practical for a second. I want to deal with something that's sort of most critical first and then we'll go back from there. If you feel like you could be suicidal, if you have thoughts of hurting yourself, there are plenty of resources out there. There are people to reach out to. The best sort of like most comprehensive thing I found was IASP.info, which sounds made up, but it's real. It's the International Association for Suicide Prevention. And they've got a, the other thing, help at the top of their website. You can click on that and

get a list of crisis centers all over the world. So please, please, please, like, if our stories illustrate nothing else, it is that there are, you know, just because you feel something a certain way of a certain time, it does not mean you'll feel that way forever. And you do not want a permanent sort of solution to a temporary problem. And I would also say, well, these international and national resources, like the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, and there's also a texting one that I found. Oh, that's great, because some people really don't like the phone I have found. Myself included, but I would love both of them, except in this case.

But even though crisis text line, that's what it was called. Oh, yeah. How do you do that? You go to crisistextline.org and then you can text home to 7-4-1-7-4-1. You can text with somebody, not a medical professional, but they are like volunteers who've been trained. Perfect. All that being said, I will talk a lot with people that I'm seeing professionally about a plan,

a safety plan, and there's usually a list of people that you're going to call if you're having these thoughts. And the list always ends with these kinds of numbers we're talking about, like national resources, the suicide hotline, 911, your doctor's office, an ER, that kind of thing. But the top of the list are your family and your friends and the people who you would talk to in a moment of crisis. So while all these numbers are great because we can tell everyone them, it's helpful for you to sit and think and even write down that list. Who do I call?

If I need somebody, it's 2am. Who's my first call? Okay, they're in the shower. Who's my second call? Okay, they ran out to get a bite to eat. They didn't answer. Who's my third call? Write those numbers down.

Write those names down because sometimes just having that list is enough for people. And then that list should always have on at these numbers that we're talking about because they provide help for everybody. But that list of people, because those are the people not only should you be calling it times a crisis, you should be talking to. I am not in that specific scenario that I have other issues that I would like to start dealing with that I don't exactly know how. online. There's great, you know, different forms you can go to. You can check out those. I personally, as Anxiety's have found a lot of relief from, like I said, the work of Claire Weeks and a lot of first stuff is up on YouTube and you can get books. I read a lot of like books about meditation. I read Anxiety as an ally by a game journalist, actually, named Dan Reichert, and that was actually really helpful, but there's a lot of great resources out there for that

But let's say and obviously for for non-anxiety I'm sure that there are just as many great resources. I think it's important to try Try different stuff get experimental see what helps and what doesn't and and on top of that Seeking professional help. So this is what I wanted to ask you about. When I, you know, if you and I hadn't been married, I wouldn't have known. Do I call people? What do I do? How does that process start?

What's it look like? You can do that. I mean, especially when you're talking about like psychologist therapist counselors, that kind of that kind of help talk therapy. You can do that. But I would say the best place to start, this is not a plug for family medicine as much as this sounds like it would be your primary care doctor. I usually am the first contact. And statistically, we are the first contact for a lot of people of primary care doctors over a psychiatrist or a therapist when they're having these issues.

And the reason we are a good first contact is one, if you have an established relationship with a physician, they know you. And so you may feel a little more comfortable saying this stuff, talking to them. Two, they have the resources, they can refer you. And sometimes your insurance needs that referral. Sometimes it's important to have that referral,

so it gets covered, because that's important too. Whether they think you might need medication help, they can refer you to a psychiatrist, heck, a lot of it, depending on the area you're in, your primary care doctor might be able to help you manage in the beginning on their own, or solo. I manage lots of these issues without the help of subspecialists, because in some areas, they're just simply I manage lots of these issues without the help of subspecialists.

Because in some areas, there just simply aren't enough licensed psychologists or counselors or psychiatrists to do it. And primary care doctors function in that way a lot. So start with your doctor. They can either help you or refer you to the therapist, the psychiatrist, whoever you may need. They're a great resource to start with. I'd say that that is the easiest way to figure out what's the next step. Anything else you want to say about this said before we sort of?

Not we've talked a lot about about yourself and how to seek help. Make sure you're looking out for the people around you too. Make sure you're, you know, I have gotten really tuned in over time to Justin, and I think I have a good feel for when you're doing better and when maybe I need to urge you to have you called your therapist lately when the last time you've seen him. I think I have a good feel for that, and you probably have people in your life that you know well enough to know when they're doing well and when they're not doing so well. And if we all kind of have that stance that we're all watching each other, and when somebody's a little more withdrawn, when somebody is not acting like themselves, when they seem a little

more laybile, when they're not engaging with things they used to enjoy. Laybile. Like, sorry. Like back and forth, like all over the place. Okay. Like, they're mood swings. Got it. That kind of thing.

When somebody, you know, starts drinking a lot more than you've known them to drink or taking big risks with their life that is out of the norm for them, you know, when you see these things, stop somebody and ask, because sometimes that's, sometimes someone is just waiting for someone to notice. You know, there are a lot of times where I think if somebody had looked at me at work and said, oh my gosh, you seem really angry. What is up? Are you okay?

Because I'm not an angry person. What is wrong? What are you okay? There were lots of times where it was exploding from me to talk about it. But nobody asked. And so I didn't. Because I didn't want to burden, I don't know, because I didn't.

So ask, notice, pay attention. And, and, you know, if nothing else, talk to people about this stuff. That's, that can be a great entry point. Like, the, the one good thing about what I went through is like, I feel like I can talk to other people who are going through the same thing. And for them, kind of say like, yeah, like it's, it's a thing. It can happen. It's not just your brain. And like seeing, and I think seeing that, that other people who've gone through that thing, I think can help short circuit your brain, sort of like stranglehold,

it has on the anxiety or the depression or whatever it is, to see like, oh wait a minute, there is another side to this. It is not just what I'm feeling in this exact moment. There's other things that one can feel. Yeah, you'd be amazed how much help it can be just to look at somebody and say, hey, I've been there before.

Is that where you are? And how much help that might be? So anyway, that's our show. I know it was a lot more, it was not nearly as structured as a classic solbund's episode. Oh, yeah. And probably not as many laughs, unless you're real sicko. But, and maybe it was a little self-indulgent, I have no idea what you, you, dear people at home, but my hope is that that it was, honestly, if these shows do nothing else,

if there is, and I mean this sincerely, one person, who's like, oh, that me, oh yeah, okay, that's me, that's my thing, that's what's happening to me. My brain is sick and I need to fix it, that's worth it for me. I'll do all the self-indulgent episodes it takes. Yeah, that's my only hope because if this is self-indulgent, I will say I don't enjoy talking about this stuff. I enjoy helping people and if this has helped anybody, then good.

I'm glad we did it. So that is my hope. And also, I don't know quite how to say this, but if you do wanna talk about your struggles with mental illness and stuff, I think we are obviously saying 100%, you should do that. I will also say that like, sit in the eye are probably not the best people to reach out to about your personal struggles if that is something that you are compelled to do. Honestly, Twitter's just a really bad platform for it and

especially like. Well, and Sydney can't, obviously. I can't and we don't have the, we will not be able to do that properly through emails or tweets or whatever. We can't, we can't. It won't be the kind of help you need. Yeah, reach out to the people you know, reach out, and reach outside of them to people who are trained to help with this sort of thing, because I think that that is where you're going to have the real growth and the real help

is to build that network. And I say that mainly is an apology. Like if you tweeted us about sort of what, growth and their real help is to build that network. Yeah. And I say that mainly is an apology. If you tweeted us about sort of what, you want to share your story with us, if we like don't respond or anything, I don't want you to think, take that personally or think that we're callous or uncaring,

but I don't want to do that. No, I always think there's power in sharing your stories, just because then everybody, everyone hears them and realizes they're not alone. And that's, and sharing your stories just because then everybody, everyone hears them and realizes they're not alone. And that's... And you're not, you know? No thing.

You're not. It's like the story from West Wing. It's like the guy in the hole. Yeah, when his friend walks by and after the doctor through the prescription and the the priest uh shouted down a prayer, his friend jumped in the hole and said, well that's done. We're both down here now and the friend said, yeah, but I've been down here before and I know the way out. So reach out to people and try to be there for for the people you care about and let's just all get through this thing

together as a an extended podcasting family And but that is gonna do it for us. So until next week when you will be here and we will be here My name is Justin McRoy. I'm Sydney McRRoy. And as always, don't drill a hole in your hand. Maximumfund.org Comedy and Culture, Artistone Listen or Supported If you want to make ends meet in a hip town, the kind with great coffee, lots of dog parks, you're gonna need a side hustle.

In Brooklyn, maybe you drive rideshare. In Fairhaven, it's more like... Well, it's more like slaying psychic beasts with your custom-balanced throwing knives. Hey, are you from Hunter? I guess so. Hold on, I have to ask you some stuff. Are you hurt? No. Do you feel yourself developing strange powers?

I mean, is all a ghost once? Okay, I'm going to put down no. Okay. So, you're having some sort of monster issue? Oh, um, a ghost once? Okay, I'm going to put down no. Okay. So, you're having some sort of monster issue? Oh, um, it's like a pod, I guess. Um, here it is. Is that what you call it? Like, like a pod?

Yeah, pod works. Oh, it's opening! Morgan leaps back and positions the metal spear she's been carrying on her back. She points it towards the bug, which swipes the spear away just as an electrical bolt fires from the tip. It hits the gate to a petting zoo and a bunch of baby goats come streaming out. Can we just take a moment to appreciate how cute this is? It's great.

I hope someone's filming it. Oh my god. Just a little baby goat. Bubble. The Sci-Fi comedy for MaximumFun.org. Just open your podcast app and search for Bubble.