Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Viking's Disease

Episode Date: January 19, 2020

This week on Sawbones, we celebrate a trip to Minnesota with an exploration of Viking's Disease. You'll meet the people it isn't really named for and the guy who beat out a long line of researchers to get it named after himself. It's a whole thing. You'll see. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saabones is a show about medical history and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion It's for fun Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it just sit back relax and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth Your worth it All right from that weird growth. Your worth it. Alright, the tour who's been here. I'm the one who's been here. I'm the one who's been here. I'm the one who's been here.

I'm the one who's been here. I'm the one who's been here. I'm the one who's been here. We came across a pharmacy. We came across a pharmacy. We came across a pharmacy. We came across a pharmacy. We came across a pharmacy. We came across a pharmacy. And I'm Sydney McAroy.

Thank you. That's fine. Thank you. It's your time. It's your time now. You're just cheering out your time. That's fewer jokes. I have to make up because you're just cheering out your time. That's fewer jokes. I have to make up because

you're just cheering for my wife because she's great. I don't know. I don't get it. It's fine. Thank you. Thank you. It seemed about equal. That time seemed equal. I'm gonna drink my white one. It's okay. Could you please explain what you're drinking? Because that's a weird, that's a weird one. It's a white wine. It's white claw mixed with red wine. It's a white wine. Can I say this, folks?

That is what he's drinking. That's not a lot. I said this once at sage, and it made people so angry. It's not a white wine. Yeah, this is white claw, red wine. Makes the guy that's a white one. Yeah, it is white clump. Red one makes the guy that's white one. Maybe it was so angry that I just doubled down. I didn't even want to drink this tonight.

I just wanted the opportunity to talk about white wine. Really irritate a lot of people. No, it's just the infiltration of white claw into our lives. In general, I thought it was a joke. I was like, ha ha, we like white claw now. And now it's like it's backstage. I thought it was a joke. I was like, ha ha, we like white clawed out. And now it's like, it's backstage.

It's everywhere it's in our home. It's in my beer fridge. What is happening? It's just good, it's refreshing. When you're poolside or when you wish you were, reach for a white claw. Or if you want to class it up, try and mix in with Red Wine. For a white wine.

So before we came, I asked on the show for suggestions for topics, because we always like to do something that's like regionally connected, something that would be interesting to everybody who lives in whatever city we're touring in. And I got an email that said, would you please talk about Viking disease? And I said, and I thought, okay, that's perfect. First of all, that's, okay, that would be great. We can talk about Vikings.

And also, I don't know what that is. Because I'd never heard that term Okay, that would be great. We can talk about Vikings. And also, I don't know what that is. Because I'd never heard that term to refer to this particular condition. And so I thought we would talk about Viking disease, right? Because you guys, like, that's it. You guys like Vikings, right? I do like Vikings.

I like Vikings like the regular amount. My understanding is that that comes from, like, there's a lot of Scandinavian descent I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you.

I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. I'm not sure if I can explain it to you. And then maybe in this particular instance, you also have some extra fibers tissue in your hand, creating a contracture. It's called Viking disease. Anyway, so that's what we're going to talk about. That's not as like fun and sexy, but interesting.

Thank you, Tamara, if you're here for this topic. And for teaching me this name, for this condition, which I never learned as Viking disease. I know about it, but I'd never heard of it as called this. It's the last possible thing you would imagine Vikings disease being, right? The last possible thing. It really, it sounds very scary and intense

Viking disease. Like, it seems like he loves acts as so much that we came up with a medical condition about it. Because he loves acts as so much. What it really comes down to is that it's the development of this extra kind of thick, fibrous tissue and nodules in the palm of your hand. And over time, it will start to cause your fingers

to contract down to where you can't bend them completely. So you're handling up looking like this. I just saw literally 20 people. Just a quick check to make sure, okay. Hand is okay. Hand is fine. Like literally 20 of you, I can't see most of you. I saw 20 of you in light just like,

it's surreptitiously like, can I? Yes. Okay, continue with the entertainment. There's probably one of you who's like, oh man, oh beans. It's most common with a ring finger, and I can tell you, it really is. The reason it has this connection, Viking disease,

is because it has a genetic predisposition, and specifically in Scandinavian countries, it's much more common. And so, if genetically that's where you come from, you are more likely to develop it, and I have it in my family. And so, as I was doing this research, I was sitting there looking at my hand the whole time

going, do I see? Because at first it'll start with some puckering. And I was like, do I see any puckering? But not yet, but maybe. But in Scandinavian countries, it affects like 10% of men and about 2% of women. So it is a pretty common thing. And so I don't know.

You might want to check your hands. There are specific things. How's your entertainment this evening? Pretty good, huh? How's your entertainment this evening? Pretty good, huh? How's your entertainment this evening? There are some specific things that can predispose you

to it. Diabetes, especially type one, has been linked to this. They've also linked... Sure. Okay. Okay. Don't want to wait too deep into the cheers for the type one diabetes. I'm assuming it's not an enthusiastic support, but maybe more of an out-of-boy sort of...

Okay. Also... more of an adaboy sort of, okay. Also. Type 1 diabetes admitted in Minnesota. So, why do the scientists keep making it? Also, smoking has been linked to it. Alcohol has been linked to it. But we're still not entirely sure why it happens. Like I said, we know there's some genetic factors, but we don't know exactly what starts

to cause it. There are some similar conditions that can occur in other parts of the body. There's something called letter-hosed disease, and it's the same thing in your feet, basically, same idea of like these nodules and fibros bands and like contraction of your feet. And then there is a similar disease that can occur in the penis called peronese disease. You all just laughed. This is a medical program. You laughed at the mention of the word penis. I am so disappointed.

If I have to restrain myself, you all do too. I just like the idea. Continue, Sidney. I'm sorry about them. As we get to this, this has a different name that it's most commonly known by, and they're all kind of named for daughters. Oh, boy.

I got names for days for that. Hold on, get comfy. All right. This is a medical third grade. These are the ones I learned in third grade. Here we go. Nope, we're calling it the penis. Whoa.

That's the first one I knew about. Warn. I just want to know, because like the doctor, all these different, whether it's your hand or your foot or your penis, the different name of a different doctor is connected with each one. And I wonder if it was like a fight like, who's going to get the hand, the foot,

and who's gonna get the penis? And everybody's like, not it. And the one guy's like, ah, all right, Peyroni. I'll get the penis. Anyway, there has been attempts to trace the origins of this condition to the trail of the Vikings, essentially, because of this genetic connection.

And so you see that it originates in Scandinavian countries, but then you see it spread, especially to the United Kingdom, because if you go back to 865, what was called, I love reading about these histories of Vikings, because you'll find some historians who are like a great heathen army descended upon England. And then there are other people who are like, listen, they weren't that bad.

Everybody likes to blame them with the raids and the stuff, but they were trading. There were poets, calm down. They were led by, I love this, the pair of warrior brothers who led the Viking Army traders, whatever you want to call them. Half Dan.

And Ivar the boneless. Sorry, did you say half-dan? Half-dan. Woof. And Ivar the boneless. And my boy half-dan. Hey, what's up? Am Ivar the boneless?

Is my boy half-dan? We're just going to pillage your stuff. What's up? Make sure to smash that like and subscribe button. I'm... LAUGHTER Um... And then they started like some local rock music festivals.

Right. The Fire Festival, which they spelled F-I-R-E, and they thought it was good, and everyone else thought it was very bad and challenging, because it was at their houses. So as the Viking spread over the United Kingdom, you start to see more and more incidences of Viking disease among people there, is like, you know, they

started living there and like spreading their genetic material, you know. Good charming way of putting it, going all over the place. And so this is where this connection comes from. It's interesting though, because this is probably not the whole story, because as we learned more throughout the years about this particular condition, we have found that, for instance, there's a particularly high incidence within Japan, and there is no like Viking spread to Japan. So obviously there are other things that can predispose of this, but this connection to the Scandinavian origins has stuck anyway. There's also a mention in some ancient,

because there's been this thought like this is more of a, this is really the origin of this disease, but then if you go back, there's some mention in some ancient Greek texts of, and this is the way that they've connected it. Some sort of hand condition that seemed to get better if you had an emperor or a doctor stand on your hand.

What? And there aren't a lot of things, generally speaking, contractors of hand, foot, anything, really, that we treat by standing on it. Or getting a fancy person to stand on. Yeah. These days it would be an influencer. And this has been connected to one of the old,

like, Scandinavian treatments for Viking disease. It was very similar, and it was said that there was, like, a rich guy was getting a foot massage and he and like the foot massage wasn't going so well so he so he accidentally this is the way it's recorded accidentally kicked the hand of the person giving him a foot massage and it caused them a great deal of pain but then then later they were like, thank you so much. My hand is fixed. And this was the origin of this ancient Scandinavian fix for it is like, no problem.

Hold still. Let me kick that hand. And you're good. And so that's been the thought, well, maybe it's a lot more common. My uncle's the mayor. Let me see if that's enough. I don't know.

We're going to try. I don't know. We're going to try. I don't know how important the city official had to be. Right. Like the county commissioner, the dog catcher. I don't know. As it spread, especially throughout Great Britain, it was known by different names. And for a while, you'll hear certain parts of the world

where they kind of refer to it as Celtic Hand. And it has this really strong connection with that part of the world, even though it very clearly has these roots in Scandinavia. And then another, my favorite name for it, is the curse of the McCrimmins. So this traces back to 15th century Scotland, and the origin of this, because they have their whole own like kind of mythology as to where this condition came from. And it says that a long time ago in Scotland, the chieftains of the island of sky were clan McLeod.

Yes, here we are, for to begin. That's why they're so good at holding swords. It all makes sense. The medicines, the medicines, that I skillet my God for the mouth. Hi everybody, I hope you're enjoying this live episode of Sawbones. Just want to take a brief moment to tell you

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That's stitchfix.com slash solbones stitchfix.com slash solbones. We also want to tell you about door dash. This is a personal favorite of ours one that has been a life saver so many times when you don't have a plan for dinner and you don't have time anything to cook, you know, time to cook whatever it is. Are you just kind of craving and eat like, don't wanna leave the house, it's so cold. Door dash to the rescue. They connect you with your favorite restaurants in your city, you just open the app, you pick the food you wanna eat,

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And that's less cool than the Highlanders, but go on. So my understanding is that if you were a Macrimmon, then it was expected you would play the bagpipes. I don't think you got like a choice. This was just this. You have been born into the Macrimons, you will play the pipes now. And this worked out great.

It's like that for us and podcasting, actually. It's very sad. I didn't choose this life. So this worked out great for the at Cremens for a long time, and then a curse arose to stop them from being the official pipers of the island of Sky forever. And there are a lot of different stories, as you would expect, because it's kind of folklore, as to exactly what this curse was

about. It's either that there was a widow whose only son was taken by the press gangs, which were like people who were like forcing, like drafting you into the military, but like not draft, it was like forced. So like, no, you're drafted. We just took you, we stole you, you're drafted. So that maybe she put a curse on the family of the McCrimmins. There's a whole other story about a woman who taught her piping the family piping secrets to someone else, the McPherson's, and she was punished by removing some

of her fingers, and so then she put a curse on the McCrimson family forever for punishing her, for teaching the piping secrets one way or another. There was a curse. It's made up. There was a curse put on's made up. It's made up. There is a curse put on the McCrimmins that they would no longer be the official pipers of the island of sky.

And the result was that all the pipers in the McCrimmins family slowly had their hands curled in into claws, and they never piped again. And so in certain parts of Scotland, this is called the curse of the Macrimans if you have viking disease. That is probably not the medical origin of this condition. A greedy disagree.

A greedy disagree. Uh, it's, when I, when I do these shows because I had, like I said, I'd already heard of this condition by a different name. And so as I'm setting this up in my head, I'm thinking, well, I'll wait and reveal it later in the show because it's like a surprise, except it occurred to me that like, it's really only interesting for me and they were going to be a handful of people in the audience who were going to go, I knew that's what it was, but not very many, but I'll still enjoy it.

This is version of 90's Kids, I'll still enjoy it. So thanks. This is a since version of 90s kids. We'll love this one. LAUGHTER The name that I learned for this condition was not Viking disease. Oh my gosh, here comes the twist. It was Dupatren's contracture. I knew there would be a handful. Some of you are faking it, and that's cool.

I get it. Welcome to my squad. For Dr. Dupatrin, also Baron Dupatrin. He was a Baron as well as a doctor. Baron Dupatrin definitely sounds like a JRPG villain, 100,000%. I don't know which one you go with if you're a doctor, Anna Baron. Dr. Baron Dupatrin. Dr. Baron Dupatrin. 100%. Excuse me, that's. Barron Dupatrin. Dr. Barron Dupatrin.

100%. Excuse me, that's Dr. Barron Dupatrin. And as many scholars have pointed out, even though it is most associated with him, and that was certainly the name that I was taught in schools, Dupatrin's, he was not the first doctor to describe this condition. You can go back and find mentions of this initially from a doctor Felix Platter who we don't call Platter's disease. From Switzerland in 1614 and he was the first one to actually describe it and talk about some different ways to fix it and he described

it which I really like as your handle will have tendon like crispiness. Yeah. So you get crispy hands. So he was probably the first, he was the first one to describe it. And then in the late 1700s, we had a British doctor, Dr. Henry Klein, who described it again and wrote about it and went into some possible treatments for it and tried to say like this could be called Klein's Contracture.

And everybody was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Sounds good to me. I don't like that. And then one of his students who studied under him and went on to continue his works and wrote extensively about the contracture itself, and also some surgical procedures

that he tried to fix it to like cut through the Fibre's tissue and release it so that you could open up your hand again, Dr. Asley Cooper. He wrote about it. And then he said, you know what, we could call it, Cooper's contracture, will be a pretty cool name for this. I'm writing a huge treatise on it. I'm publishing books about it.

I'm doing this procedure. I'll even give my mentor some credit and we could call it the client Cooper contracture. That's hard to say. I don't like that one. Which is a lot of names. But again, it didn't really seem to catch on. None of these names.

Until 1831, there was a Frenchman, Dr. Baron Dupatrin, who was a pretty famous surgeon already in his own right. He was a surgeon to Napoleon. He actually took care of his hemorrhoids. Wow. So you know, I, he actually took care of his hemorrhoids. Wow. So you know, I mean, he trusted him with his hemorrhoids. It's amazing.

And he was the... Which was especially bad after he ate the Ziggy Piggy as everybody knows. Thank you. I enjoyed that. Just for you, Sid. Thank you. And he that. Just for you, Sid. Thank you. And he was kind of a controversial figure

in surgical history. I started reading about, all I knew about this guy is that there's a contraction named after him. I figured he was a doctor. And so as I started reading about Dr. Dupatren, he was very much lauded for his skill. He was very talented surgeon, but his personality apparently left something

to be desired, and I think this probably plays into how this guy ended up with all the credit. He was described as a square solid man with a high domed head. He was critical of all those around him. He had few friends. He was critical of all those around him. He had few friends. He was called the greatest of surgeons, the meanest of men. And after he died, the Boston Medical and Surgical Journal

published sort of like a eulogy about him. And it's the most interesting, I would say honest, account, attempting to celebrate the life of someone, because they talk about how the contemplation of his features left a jene-séquat impression on the feelings even of the most acute physiognomists, half pleasurable, and half dissatisfied. A sensation at once of admiration and dislike,

for which it was found impossible to account. It was said that he had very few friends and no one really knew him, but he was a great surgeon, and he was really good at getting things named after him. So he, drawing upon these works of physicians before him, Klein and Cooper, he gave a lecture about this condition, about the contracture, and he said, I am the first one to attempt to fix it, and I can.

And back at this time, we didn't have anesthesia, so the fix for it was pretty brutal, but if you could withstand it, he could cut open the patient's hand and release that band of tissue. Basically, that's all I was doing, is just cutting through it or cutting it out, and that would fix it if you could survive the surgery and the ensuing

infection, which was certain to follow. If you could, he could probably return function of your hand. And he even said, in his work he went on to say, those Klein and Cooper guys, they said it couldn't be cured. They probably didn't say it. It was a complete lie. It'll't be cured. They probably didn't. There's a complete lie. It'll never be cured. It was a complete lie.

They had written about how to fix it. But everybody went, yes. This seems right. We still call it Dupetren's Contracture. And I mean, he did pretty well for himself. He would go on to have 12 different diseases and fractures and operations and instruments and things named after him over time.

So Dupatrin is the name that we remember and associate with this disorder because of that. His most famous work, though, is called A Treatise on Artificial Anus. treat us on artificial anus? LAUGHTER LAUGHTER You know what better is 50 shades of grey. LAUGHTER But the thing I know in For is the contracture, so. Some other interesting points about Dupatrens,

because as I read about it, it has, maybe because we still don't quite understand the whole, like pathophysiology, why does it happen? And exactly, how can we predict who's going to get it and who's not. There's all this kind of interesting mythology and folklore around it. One thing is that it's thought that James Barry had this. There's some documented evidence that he may have, and it was the inspiration for Captain Hook, he wrote Peter Pan. So it's the inspiration for Captain Hook, was that his hand was kind of curled into a hook.

There's also been some suggestion that what is called the hand of benediction, which is like this number. I know. Maybe the result of a Pope long ago who had Dupatrens. If you're listening to the audio version of this, Sydney has curled her pinky and ring finger and has extended her middle and index finger.

In a sort of, I'm about this. I don't know, like a Catholic. He signed, I don't know what that is, but I'm assuming. There has been, there has been suggestion. Like, do you think maybe there was a Pope who had Dupatrens? And this is just what he could kind of manage. And now we're like, blessing hand, but addition hand. And this went further, this theory, which was kind of explored, like, I don't know.

And I mean, it's really, it's only just kind of tossed out there in any history of Dupatrens. It's like, I don't know, maybe. Wouldn't that be cool? I don't know. I don't really know. I don't really know what Pope it might have been or when, or if that happened.

But it would be a cool thing. There are some scholars who have taken this even further and said, well, now, if we're going to go down that road, it probably doesn't originate with a pope or with Christianity at all. It probably originates with the hand of sebaceos, which was an ancient pagan god of the frigians and the thrations, who was sort of similar to what you'd think of like the Greek god Dionysus, like the god of like fertility and like fun times.

And you can find these old statues that are just hands. And they're all like this. They're all that same that hand of benediction or whatever of subbezios. And the thought is like, why was it like this? And there's this whole theory people have developed as like, well, we used to take things about humans that we admired and attribute them to gods. And if you had dupatrens way back in the day, you would live longer because it is a disease

that tends to have older onset. You'd live longer than everybody else. So already everybody's like, you must be holy. You've lived so much longer than the rest of us, because we didn't have vaccines when you still lived. And you must, there must be something holy about you. And so that this, that there was some old guy with dupetrons and he would go like this and they were like, that must be a God thing. And so they made statues of Sibesios' hand like this.

And then somebody was like, hmm, that seems like a good thing for Christianity to also adopt. So we'll just do this thing. And then a Pope was like, no, like that. That's pretty cool. I like that move. I can't believe folks have finally found that something that Christianity appropriated from paganism. And there's this whole theory that it all originated with just some guy who just managed to live a long time back when it was hard to do that. Who had dupatrends? I don't know. I always just thought it meant the holy trinity.

But in either way, it's an interesting story. The treatment now that we have, because over time we've tried a lot of different things. Like I mentioned, the idea that you could just kind of go in and maybe cut that tissue is very old. Pretty early on we thought, well that seems like the simplest solution. And we were kind of right except anesthesia has helped with that a lot. We have tried injecting all sorts of different things. We don't really recommend standing on your hand, not a doctor or anyone else, or any sort

of like violent action towards the hand in general. Like I said, Dupatrans patients, they would knock out with a couple bottles of wine. We don't use that for anesthesia anymore. And we have tried some things like some enzymes and things to inject in there to try to kind of break up the tissue or dissolve the tissue with not really great results. There's still some research ongoing.

We tried things like steroid shots that can help a little bit. But again, and you'll find some wild things out there now. Like there is a homeopathic remedy called scar X that will not work because homeopathy is fake. So don't do that. So don't do that. But the mainstay now is a surgical treatment. And there are different ways they can do that where they can either cut the tissue or remove some of the tissue.

They're trying some things with just a needle so they can be less invasive. And the test to see if you start to see, usually the first indication is a little nodular area, the base of your ring finger. If you're worried about this, the test to see, usually the first indication is a little nodular kind of area, the base of your ring finger. If you're worried about this, the test to see, do I need surgery? Is this really a problem? It's the tabletop test, where we have you put your hand on a tabletop, as doctors aren't

always creative. And you just put your hand on the tabletop and you can... I'm going to call it a dupertron test. If you can flatten it out, you're good. If you still can't flatten out those fingers, you might be a candidate for surgery. And I worry about this, because my grandpa has it.

So maybe I'm next. My grandpa Dan. Yeah, well, here's hoping. I don't know what to say. I'm like, I have a general anxiety disorder. I'll just add that to the pile, I guess't know. Here's hoping. I don't know what to say. I'm like, I have a general anxiety disorder. I'll just add that to the pile, I guess, said. It's OK. It's OK.

It tends to be, please don't worry. I know that maybe many of you are of Scandinavian origin. I don't know how many. There's no way of knowing how far the Vikings spread. But do not worry. It is a condition that is considered. I mean, it is fairly benign, it's not particularly, it can be uncomfortable, it's not horribly painful,

and it is treatable. So please don't stress. But now you know, and it is a Viking disease. Thank you so much for having us here, Minneapolis. We appreciate you so much. Did everyone take a moment to enjoy my wife's shirt? It is a shirt about vaccines. You can find that at mackelroymerch.com proceeds from that go to the Immunization Action Coalition. Now I have a very exciting bit of news for you. The head of that organization, Deborah Wexler is here with us tonight in this audience. Deborah, if you could just raise your hands,

I can see where you're at. Okay. There she is. Deborah Wexler, ladies and gentlemen, a true hero of science. Hero of Science. Dr. Waxler is a wonderful organization where they help spread information about vaccines to both practitioners and patients so that we can get like the good news that vaccines are safe and effective and save lives out there. Support that wonderful organization. We also have a ProVax pin which also goes to the IAC. You can get that at macrorymerch.com. Thank you to the Orphium for having us here

in this beautiful historic theater. It is awesome. Thanks to Paul Subborn over there, on the ones and twos. And, oh, my brother, my brother, me, is going to be up after intermission. If you have a question that you'd like to ask us for that show, email it to live at mbmbam.com, include your name and seat number in the subject line,

and then a one sentence question that you'd like to ask, and we'll bring some of you up during that show. Thanks to the taxpayers for these personal medicines as the intro and outro of our program. Thanks to Maximum Fun for having us part of their extended podcasting family and thanks to you. Thank you for being here. As a listening, we'll be back with you again next week. Until then, my name is Justin McArroy.

I'm Sydney McArroy. And it's always, don't drill a hole in your head. Thank you. you