Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Vagina Shaming

Episode Date: August 29, 2020

For millennia, people with vagina was told that there was something wrong with them (if they were even spoken about at all). Their vagina smelled wrong, looked wrong, it was too wet or not wet enough. This week on Sawbones, a reminder that your vagina is (almost always) just fine the way it is.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. All right, talkies about books. One, two, one, two, three, four. Hello everybody and welcome to Saul Bones, a metal deer from Miss Guyton Medicine. I'm your co-host Justin Macarolle.

And I'm Sydney Macarolle. And Sid, the clock, the countdown has begun. Our door dash order of burritos is just one half hour away. Can we, in one half hour, fix whatever problem you're about to bring to my attention solve all the world's issues with this issue and finally fix it for good.

No. This is an issue that has existed for a very, very long time and I do not believe that I have the ability or power or even all of the knowledge to solve it right now. But I do want to share it with everyone. And you will try to keep it to around 30 minutes because your boy needs his 30 minutes. I, uh, we're a little late this week on our episode because I am on hospital service. And that makes me a little busier than usual. I was already. I was just finding the time to record. But we, before I left work today, I said, okay, I got

to go record a podcast. I'll see you guys later. And my residents, some of them listen and they were like, hey, what are you doing your show on? And I couldn't, I didn't know how to explain at work what I was going to do our show on, because of the inspiration is not exactly a music video that I could, is not appropriate for the workplace environment, let's say. Depending on your workplace, I guess. Ah, I guess, I guess that's true.

But generally speaking, you just don't talk about sex in the workplace. Yeah, yeah. Just don't. Yeah, you probably just don't. Just don't. It's probably better, too, not. And there will be some talk about, I should say that at the top of this episode, that we're going to talk a little bit about SEX.

You're talking about? You're talking about? And about body parts and genitalia. And I always seek to do so in an appropriate, doctually, scientific fashion. However I get raunchy. Well, no, we're not going to get raunchy. But because it is that sort of material, I know that some families listen to the show. I believe in having these conversations with your kids, but you're not always right. I mean, I got a six-year-old. I don't know if I'm ready for this conversation with her.

It depends on how raunchy your kids are. Your kids like to get raunchy, and they love wild blue humor, and they're kind of like, you know, jack butt, you know, that kind of wild, raunchy South Park humor, like that's what we're going to be getting into. I told them without getting into anything, I said that I want to talk about the topic of vagina shaming. And I was inspired by some internet reaction to a recent song,

music video released by Cardi B and Megan Lee Stallion. And when I said that, the medical students cracked up because they knew what I was talking about. And the residents look clueless because they're too busy to know what's happening in the world around them. But it that passes. Justin, have you heard the song? Have you seen this video? No, should I put my headphones on and listen while you're explaining it and just so I can get it away the land? No. I'll start to react live. That's fine. I don't think that's necessary. I'll just go ahead and start playing it. Here's it. Check it out. Here's the thing. Okay, so the the song is

called in case you haven't heard it. It's like capital WAP. I have heard people pronounce it WAP or WAP. I think I will refrain from explaining it what they stand for. But the thing is, I think it's a good song. It's musically impressive. And the whole thing is, it's supposed to be fun and raunchy and a little sexy or a lot sexy. And it is, I mean, it is that. It's it's it's fun. And it's the kind of thing that like I probably wouldn't watch

with my six-year-old because there would be a lot of things to explain that I don't know she is quite ready for although once she is I'll talk to her about it. But it really got to some people. It really upset some people. I could imagine why. I think there are multiple reasons. Justin, could you maybe guess why some people got so upset by this? The song itself, the music video, the combination, the whole thing.

Well, I mean, there's a lot of reasons. One is it's to black women owning their own sexuality, which our culture is completely intonor enough. Yes. So I would say that that's probably a big part of it. And I guess, you know, to a lesser degree, probably just women in general owning their ancestrality is not, you know, tends to ruffle some less ruffle feather. Boy, I'm really trying to try and say think I don't have a problem with saying that I think I think some of the criticism that was leveled at this has strong either racist misogynist or both undertones. I don't think there's anything wrong with with making that statement. I'm not saying everyone who didn't enjoy it has those inclinations. I think everyone's allowed to like and not like whatever music they want. But if you're going to take to the internet or your podcast or Twitter or whatever, to complain about it and make it a bigger cultural deal, you better have some explanation for why this bothers you so much as opposed to all of the other ways we discuss and celebrate sex in our culture.

Right. And other body parts. We like the boys to get raunchy. We don't like people with vagina to get raunchy. So we like penises to get raunchy. We like raunchy penis. Is that what you're trying to say? Okay.

Specifically, Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson got really mad about it. Why don't you talk about them? Well, I mean, that's a Ben Shapiro. Ben Shapiro is the reason that we have to explain some of this stuff because, okay, so. Tucker Carlson said the usual stuff that, I mean, he's a jerk, the usual stuff he says. Ben Shapiro's thing is, in case you don't know, he's very famous for talking faster than

he can think. So he talked about this video in regard to, I guess he read the lyrics, I did not listen to this, he read the lyrics to this song on his show. Well, that's, of course you're going to listen to the term that. And then he tweeted about the fact going to lose some of the term. That's not the ideal menu. And then he tweeted about the fact that he is concerned about the medical conditions, which these women in this video might have if they necessitate a bucket and a mop for their degree of vaginal lubrication.

And he credited this observation to his, quote, Dr. Wife, which by the way, there was a time where you used to call me Dr. Wife. Yeah, it was before you, before we did solbons or any shows together. So it was, I didn't want to like talk about, I don't know, it's been weird to to violate your privacy by like talking about, you know, naming you and stuff like that. It was like a secret. No, I used to find it kind of endearing when you called me that. Now, you can never call me that again. Haven't for a while to be fair, but you...

No, it's lost its charm, but he includes in his differential, which I assume came from his doctor, wife, a yeast infection, trick-a-minisus, and bacterial vaginosis, as reasons for vaginal lubrication. Now before we get into this idea that we need to police vaginas, shame vaginas, talk publicly about what vaginas shouldn't do or look like or smell like or whatever. If right now you're screaming, why does anyone have time to be worried about this? I understand.

Absolutely. And if you need to take a minute to scream that, I understand. But some people were worried about it. And there's a long history of people taking to whatever, I guess, if it was just a soapbox on a corner, they could have done that too, to shout about what vaginas are supposed to be like. And I think we should address some misconceptions.

Is Ben correct that vaginas should be dry? Always be dry. I don't think so. So, first of all, if you don't have a vagina, you may not know that this is a problem. That people with vaginas are constantly getting messages about what vaginas should be like and have for a very long time. There are all kinds of magazine articles, wellness blogs.

There are, I would say, lots, whether intentional or not, subtle or messages from friends when you're growing up from family members, well meaning may be family members who were told the same things by their family members growing up and so pass along some weird ideas about what that specific genitalia is supposed to be like. I would say that this probably does occur for people with penises.

Messages about what a penis should be. I mean, yeah, sort of. I mean, I'm not gonna say that people with penises have never experienced genital shaming. I just don't wanna try to compare. I mean, I was saying in my lifetime, I have, you know, there's definitely like, you get, you get, there's discussion, certainly more in the middle school sort of. Right. Right. I'm just saying, I don't think that this is completely unique to people with vaginas, but I do think there is a much more widespread in

grained cultural history of this. There's also a lot less specificity I think about what makes a great penis. A great standout iconic penis. Justin's book about what makes a great penis will be coming out next month. Yeah. So the word vagina, which actually is kind of newer, the word itself, vagina, really only dates back to like the 1600s. There was a long time where there really wasn't a word for that genitalia. It seems healthy. The word itself comes from the Latin for sheath as in the sheath for a sword. I'm sorry, okay, I get it. It's been going on a long time. I'm sorry again about the whole thing,

everybody in the vagina. I'm sorry about the whole thing. In the ancient Greco-Roman world, everything down there was kind of referred to by like the same thing like your your vulva, your uterus, all of it was just sort of the same word. And this isn't very different from now. Here's an interesting question for you. Do you know what part of the genitalia is the vagina? Oh my gosh, don't. That's not fair to me, honestly. You know, I love this game. The How Thumb is just in game. You know that it's one of my favorite solvents games. To be fair, I did not see the episode. I cannot support that. But you know, the goop show with Gweneth Paltrow. I know of it. Apparently, she did an episode about vaginas and was not clear on this distinction herself. Yeah, like

better than with Paltrow at health stuff is like my lowest possible bar. I'm just saying that there and I would say this is true for people with vaginas and people without vaginas that it is not clear. It is not made clear what part of the genitalia is the vagina. Let me say this. I hope I'm in the right quadrant. Like, I think I basically know if I am if I'm off by feet, I am very unnerved. The external part is actually called the vulva.

And for those of you who know this, you're going, yes, I know this, but there are a surprising number of people who don't realize that the vagina is the, the passage, the inside part. The external part is called the vulva. That is not the vagina, but vagina tends to be used as a catch all term

for all that down there, which I think is because of this like air of mystery that has always engulfed that genitalia, that part of the pelvis. If there was not a penis present, it was kind of like, I don't know what all that other stuff is. There were beliefs in the ancient world that people who had vaginas were thought to have more moisture

in their body in general and less heat. Because if you had less moisture and more heat, then you would have grown. Upenus? Gotten upenus. They did a fix for you. They did a fix for you. Yeah. But because of this, all of your organs sort of stayed

inside, like crammed up in there instead of dropping down to what was considered the perfect state. The final evolution of the Pokemon that is Argenia is the penis and the scrotum. The Valava, the vagina, the uterus, the ovaries, all of that was like a lesser stage of evolution. Can I just do you mind if I text from a recording and ask it? Because I feel like he would have had a really good Pokemon name for the final evolution. Do you mind if I just text him

or recording and then I'll just drop it? You can just text him. I'll just ask him and then I'll just say it out of nowhere. Basically, the idea is that the vagina was an inverted penis and the uterus was an internal scrotum. Again, these, I don't think I, no, I was gonna say, I don't think I need to clarify that these beliefs were not, right, and I have no comment on the concept

of perfect genitalia. I think whatever genitalia makes you feel good is the perfect genitalia for you and one is not inherently better than the other. They're just different. They're just different. They're just different. They're just different. They're just different. All of them in every variety.

Now, Galen specifically in reference to this said, if you're trying to like compare different genitalia, and I should note too, when we're talking about references to genitalia in the ancient sense, a lot of the times they are using gendered terms for penises or vaginas that I would not use today and also are not accurate. It is more accurate to talk about people with penises and people with vaginas than it is to talk about the word woman as synonymous with a person with a vagina, which is not true. You know, it's funny.

We, very early in the solbona, we were not particularly good or responsible about that sort of using the proper terminology. And it felt a little bit when we came aware of it, it felt like an incumbrance kind of to try to remember, just to try to remember. But now at this point, I feel like it adds a degree of like specificity that's really helpful.

Like it's very important. It's more accurate. It's more accurate. It's like, I think it makes, it is actually, it makes like these discussions like easier to, you know, easier to have. And it takes a small amount of effort to make sure that everyone is recognized and seen and

Incomerance sounds terrible. I feel so terrible about the honesty with which I just said that because I'm a straight white I think it's no that honestly is just hard to make myself remember but now it's it's just a lot easier But that but that honesty is important because it can feel that way and then once you do it you realize oh I this is this is an easy thing and the result is worth it always. So, but Galen said, turn outward the woman's turn inward, so to speak, and fold double the man's and you will find the same in both in every respect. But you just, the balance has the same thing.

It's just different shapes. Just folded in or out. Fold double the man's. That sounds like it would not feel good. Bad. Uh, so anyway, because of all the excess moisture that it was thought that people with vagina's had, and I'm not talking about like whether or not

your vaginal area is wet. I am talking about like the entire, this was in like the, the idea of humors and people had predispositions that were either dry or wet or cold or hot dispositions. And so the idea that some people have excess moisture, we're just wet people was considered like a reason for disease and something that you could fix by making them dry or so. And there were foods that were wet or dry and we've talked about this.

But people with vaginas were thought to be sort of like wet and squishy all over. Like all of them was too wet. That's why, and this may be a reference to different ways that like adipose tissue was distributed throughout the body. The idea that these bodies were softer, moisture. And as a result, they necessitated men'ses to get that out, to get rid of some of that. So none of this was analogous with-

What's men'ses in case people don't know. Oh, I'm sorry, menstruation, a period. I mean, you know, you know, I know. You know. And this all ties into the practice of vaginal steaming. This practice has been, depending on who's trying to sell it to, it's been credited to ancient Chinese medical practices of like what was called moxie bustion, which is when you burn mugwort at various points on your body to produce different kinds of health effects.

It was also traditionally practiced in Thailand and Mozambique and South Africa among other places. The Greeks were also into vaginal steaming. And you can see we're like this idea of like some sort of warm steam could help get rid of all this wetness that you have. And the fact that you're cold too. That was the other thing. If you were hotter than you would have a penis. Perfect. Yeah, it's what we sense. Somebody's going to hear that sentence and put it somewhere out of context and it's gonna sound very strange.

A lot of opportunities for that so far this week, Sid. In those steaming concoctions, by the way, usually like human or cow urine would be involved. The way to, what are you gonna put there to, you know, burn so that you could generate the steam for your vagina. Sometimes wine was involved. There were also like disemboweled animals stuffed with herbs that you could then... Pleasant, how pleasant.

...gently burn to steam your vagina. None of this is a good idea. Please don't steam your vagina. I actually guess that. And this all speaks to this central idea. If you're thinking about all this, like these different things you could do to your vagina or problems with the vagina, then it hits you that this idea that vagina's naturally are dirty or broken or messed up or in some way imperfect. Yes.

Leads you to all this extra care and maintenance because they're already not the ideal, a penis. So if you can't have a penis, you're gonna have to do some extra stuff down there to keep it healthy. And eventually that would morph into and attractive to others. Right.

Now, we have done some shows on like fertility and birth control and those kinds of things. And we've talked about like some really awful things that people have done to the vagina throughout history for those specific issues. I want to focus more on things we've done to just try to like make the vagina in its natural state, quote unquote, better, not really dressing those issues. Dushin was one of the most popular for a long time. Oh, you should be around Sydney when a Ducin comes on TV.

Then happens as much as it used to be. But Hachi, Machi, this one. Woo, Ducin. Spicy. Ducin was originally a form of birth control or thought to be a form of birth control, I should say, it does not work as birth control. It was also used to prevent infections,

sexually transmitted infection specifically. It doesn't work for that either, but that is why people started doing it. Then, lysol came around in the early 1900s, and in addition to stopping pregnancy, it was advertised to fight odors. Now, if you're going to step back and say, wait, are you trying to tell me that people would douche with lice all?

No. Yes, people used lice all as a, it was sold as a douche. It wasn't, it wasn't off label. It was on the label. It is a lice all douche for people with vaginas to use to prevent pregnancy and to keep things fresh. Oh, no. It doesn't even seem healthy.

It wasn't. It did cause damage. It caused pain and people were told it was fine and to keep doing it anyway. Throughout the 1920s and 1930s, a lot of feminine care products were developed. Where do we have to start saying 19s there, isn't it? I know. let's do it. Let's think about it. So 20s.

And again, feminine care or feminine hygiene is generally the name that you'll see given to this category of products. Once again, this is a gendered term that is not accurate. But a lot of these products are unnecessary. So just to throw that in there. It just was that in the trash bit of history anyway. Yes. And the idea is that they were

aimed at things like sentine and freshening the vagina. So like, when we first developed pantyliners, the earliest pads that were available, they would make them like flowery scented and that kind of thing. Wipes and things that you could make stuff smell better, of course, douches. And it was sort of like we realized as tampons and pads became a thing because we're looking at the same era where like we moved from when when someone was having a period, they had to wear like those belts that would strap on to the pad and all this, which were probably very uncomfortable and limiting as to what you could do with them. As we move into tampons and pads that you could take with you and like

people become more mobile and are able to like continue to work or do whatever, be out in the world while they are on their periods, it. I think it dawned on a lot of marketers that well, you could sell lots of things then to these people that have to do with their genitalia. This is a whole area where we could make a lot of money and it all fit nicely into this narrative. This is inferior genitalia. It inherently needs work. We like to make money. We will sell you things for it. Accessories. Accessories for your vagina and things took off from there. Like what? I'm going to tell you right after we go to the billing department. Let's go. I'm going to let my God for the mouth. Sydney, if I remember correctly, you're about to horror-fiming with more vaginal mistreatment.

So the big thing is that a lot of these products, even though they would offer you all these other benefits with like scent and things, supposed benefits, I should say, they were, the core reason they existed was for birth control in a lot of cases, especially the douche. Then we realized how to actually make birth control that worked, that was real. We realized that douchein has never worked. We didn't know, maybe we knew it didn't, maybe we didn't know, but why did we ever recommend it? And so the people who, the douche sellers and douche marketers had to come up

with a different message. The douche seller sounds like a very unenjoyable BBC Manny series, doesn't it? So how do we get people to continue to buy douches for their vaginas now that they know that they're not gonna keep them from becoming pregnant. So how about instead, we say, you know, your husband could be leaving you or cheating on you because you aren't clean enough down there.

And there's only one way to fix that. Classic advertising thing, right? Like they talk about on madmen a lot. Like advertising is really creating, it's creating a want, like which is basically creating guilt or shame that can only be fixed by a product. Exactly. And in the early marketing, it was very much tied

to this like, to a heterosexual marriage because the idea that people were having sex outside of marriage would not have been spoken of. Well, you're already right on the line by talking about vaginas anyway. So it's got exactly the very focus on the family. So it was very much an ad aimed at a wife. And the idea was you, he would like it if you were as fresh as you were the day you met.

That was always the underlying, make your genitalia the way it was on your wedding night. I know how gross this is, it is, it's very gross, it's all very gross. Everybody remembers what their partners, which I know is like on their wedding night. They're just chasing that memory. It's funny because you see things like evolve as we move into like some more of the women's

liberation movement and you get different messages, messages into like the 70s where you have like some again, it's all very, it's all very heteronormative, but you get like a man and a woman who are very clearly supposed to look like kind of like hippies. And he's like, I always love the way she is down there, but she knows that I really love the smell of Apricots. And it's like, ugh! Ugh! It's like hanging a freaking air freshener down. Like, I love his car, but I love it the most when it's got those little trees in there. It was like, it was like, they had to evolve as like sexual empowerment evolved and feminism and all this.

So like, let's evolve with that to a different way of shaming that's subtler, so that they don't catch on. Own your sexuality by making your vagina a Smolink mango sparkle berry. Exactly. Got it. Keep your business fresh for your sexually empowered experiences in or outside of a marriage.

But again, still only heterosexual is represented in any of this advertising. But never mind that all these messages are wrong, the whole idea is of course wrong, that vagina is inherently or dirty or unclean or unfrash or smelly. It's all degrading and wrong, but they just morph that same concept to appeal to people as culture shifted. Eventually doctors would get on board with the idea that these products were harmful with the realization that like the vagina is self-cleaning,

the vagina does not need to be cleaned out. And again, this is why terminology really is important because we're talking about our vulva, which is external. And just as like when you're taking a bath or a shower, it is important to clean your body that has contact with the outside world or could get dirty or sweaty or whatever. And so it is important to occasionally clean yourself. The vulva is external.

The vagina is internal. It does not need to be cleaned. Your body is handling it. Yes, the vagina is self-cleaning and there it has a specific pH and it does not need to be messed with and it certainly doesn't need to be scented and all of these products could be harmful. In addition to your normal vaginal flora, there are bacteria that are supposed to be there that are good and that should grow and going and trying to wipe them all out with lysol or whatever it is, is harmful to you and your health. So in response to that, the dooshers came out with vaginal wipes and shampoos and sprays

just for the external freshening just so that again, the idea being, and have you ever had this idea sold to you, Justin? I would like to know that when you are out in the world going about your day, that occasionally you need to sneak off to a bathroom so that you can wipe down your genitalia to make it fresher. I think the closest parallel is the messages that we get about the odor, right? Like you get, you know, your shameful stink and everyone on the subway hates it

and they hate you when you need to go, put on a better antipersion, right? That's the closest I get. I get very little like messages about the way my genitalia needs to be. That you need to sneak off somewhere and spray something in your underwear so that it smells nicer. No, yeah. It's just, I mean, people will talk about it, but it's much more just than it except the cost due business rather than, you know.

And it's interesting because this is one, the vagina and the shaming of the vagina. This is really not aligned with one or the other like political end of the spectrum. Because with tampons and pads, we've seen a lot of, we've seen the rise of like natural products that are being sold, like inherently anything, all of these original pads and tampons and things that came out are bad for you. They have toxins, they will damage you. Right. A vaginal lubricants, there were a lot that for a while, specifically some very, I would say, progressive wellness advocates with their own lifestyle websites would tell you

that there are lubricants that have toxins in them and are artificial and they'll harm you if you use them. And so don't use any of those. Here are these very expensive organic natural products that you have to use so that you don't accidentally damage your vagina or disrupt your endocrine system or whatever they come up with. that you have to use so that you don't accidentally damage your vagina or disrupt your endocrine system or whatever they come up with.

Which is especially insulting, as a lot of advocates have pointed out, to places all over the world where just access to these products is such a problem. And so therefore, the men'ses can be completely limiting to those people's quality of life because they are unable to go to school or go to work or leave the house when they're occurring

because they don't have access to these products to then like take it a step further and go, oh, but only use this specific natural brand that is promoted is again another way of shaming you for doing it wrong doing your vagina wrong. And again a lot of this damage can also get handed down. I would say a lot of people when they first learned about vaginal upkeep and maintenance. And again I'm really talking about vulva but everybody just uses the word vagina to

mean the whole thing. They probably learned it from a family member, from a mother or a sister or maybe a friend, who told them like, oh, shave that or that shouldn't look that way. Or, oh, I always use this wipe because this makes you fresher or whatever. Right. And it can, it can seem like, you know, you're well intentioned. You're trying to help somebody out, but it's because we've all fallen victim to the same cultural myth.

Because anything that we don't talk about as a culture, there's plenty of shade for misconceptions to grow. Teen Vogue did an article, which I usually celebrate Teen Vogue, because I think that they do a lot of good stuff. Back in 2017, there was a much publicized article about your summer vagina, with the idea that in the summer you have to do extra things to your vagina to keep it not funky. Some of the things, it's funny, because if you look at the advice out of context,

they tell you to do things like practice safe sex, wear sunscreen, rinse sand off of you, if you have sand on you. She's intuitive, but I'm fine. Yeah, and that's fine. But once you involve, like, but because you have a vagina, you have to rinse the sand off you, especially.

Yeah. Like, I don't know what that has anything to do with it. And then they involve things like use some vaginal wipes for bacteria, don't wear a wet bathing suit because it will change your vaginal pH. The heat outside will dry out your vagina. No, that would be quite a speed. None of these things are true. That you have to pee a lot to prevent a urinary tract infection. Now that would actually work. None of these things are true. That you have to pee a lot to prevent a urinary tract

infection. That's not true. I mean, please go urinate if you have to, but that is not accurate. I guess for the show, too, if you need to take a break to urinate, please, or take us with you. We don't know. We don't know your being.

And again, the vagina doesn't need extra care. It just needs the normal care that your whole body needs. You know, hygiene is important to everyone with all bodies. Hygiene is valuable for all of us. There is no special set of hygiene rules just for the vagina or for people who have one. And then the other part of this is not just what vagina's look like and what they smell like, but then what they do, which takes us back to the music video that inspired this whole episode.

There is an idea that because vaginas are supposed to be fresh and clean in some way, that also there is a special amount of vaginal lubrication that is normal and healthy. And if you have too much, there's something wrong with you, and if you have too much, there's something wrong with you. And if you have too little, there's something wrong with you. And I think that this also gets tied into, this is probably why some of this is so pervasive. I, and correct me if I'm wrong, I suspect that the idea of too little vaginal lubrication being stigmatized is also tied to our beliefs about what it says about your partner's sexual performance. I think that's very, yeah. There is some idea that your partner is doing it wrong if you do not have enough vaginal lubrication.

If you use artificial lube, they're shaming like, oh, again, is it your partner's fault or what's wrong with you? Are you not, I've heard this before, are you not in touch enough with yourself, with your body? Are you not in touch spiritually with yourself enough to be able to make that happen, to generate it? And then again, on the other end, there's this some idea that somehow someone who has more vaginal lubrication is promiscuous or dirty or something bad. Wrong cheer. Yes, something. And that it's gross.

That the idea that, oh, well, that's too much. Now you've taken it too far. It's gross. And I even read that there was something like, for a while, there was this idea that something had developed on Instagram, was it, or one of those teen apps, for a dry panties challenge to prove that you were clean. T. Apparently this was much like our perennials sunny episode. Oh, okay. Where we learn.

Wait, hold on, you mean? Tank chairman. Yes, that, yes, that. When we learned that it was really just like three people and then a bunch of news articles, I think this was similar. It was like three people and a bunch of news articles. But I think the fact that so many people immediately

believe that was true is proof that this idea that like the dryness of the vagina is still very much up for like objective perfection. How dry should it be at all times and when is it acceptable to be not dry? And in those cases, how not dry can it get before we declare a problem. I have had many conversations in my profession as a physician with people with vaginas about

normal vaginal discharge. There is a huge misconception that the vagina should be completely dry right up until the moment of some sort of maybe arousal or intimacy. And then it should immediately return to its completely dry state. This is not true. The vagina is lined with a mucosal, mucous membrane type lining, a mucosal lining. It is naturally moist. The cervix has mucous. that is normal, it is natural.

It is of different thinness throughout the menstrual cycle. So sometimes it may come out as a little bit of discharge, sometimes it doesn't. It is not dry for a reason. It's not supposed to be completely dry, it never is. And again, that's not the volval on the outside. We're talking about the vagina. The vagina is not dry.

And I think that we have this idea that any sort of discharge means a problem and is gross and weird. And I think it traces to all this stuff we're talking about. The idea that there is a perfect genitalia, and you can't have it, or you didn't do it right, or you're broken inherently because of what's going on with you. I got an exciting metaphor. Let me know how far off I am. That it's like, the vagina is like eyeballs, right? They have to be wet all the time or they don't work right. If they get really wet, sometimes it means you're crying. But other times they get really wet and you're not crying.

They just happen to get really wet for any number of reasons. But so if you see them very, very wet, it doesn't mean you're sad, it can mean a lot of everything. But if you see them dry, it doesn't mean you're not sad either. Some people are a little bit sad all the time. So it's, you can't really tell much about how many feels based on our eyeball wetness, but it is important that they be wet sometimes, most of almost all the time. There's psychobiles vagina's like eyeballs.

This was a weird, but somewhat accurate analogy. Which I was like eyeballs. Everybody's got eyeballs, most are basically eyeballs. Not everybody has a vagina. That's right, so I'm trying to explain. I'm trying to give them a way in. I got to, okay, for people who don't. And for a lot of people who do,

who are not taught this stuff. Because we don't talk about vaginas. We don for people who don't. And for a lot of people who do, who are not taught this stuff. Because we don't talk about vaginas. We don't even need to anymore. Because we got eyeballs. This eyeball thing is take off. I was like eyeballs, that's it. This is when I throw out there the caveat that there are conditions that do alter these things,

of course, right? Of course, allergies for one. To address, no, to address specifically the conditions that were in Ben's differential diagnosis. Bacterial vaginosis can cause excessive discharge and an odor, a yeast infection usually causes more of like a thick white discharge, not like, I don't know, that you would not mistake it for vaginal lubrication, probably, as well as some itching and burning. Trick and Menace says, can cause a discharge, some odor and some pain when you pee?

There are reasons why you could have a vaginal discharge that is abnormal, that is indicative of an illness, and that needs to be addressed. Which is why I recommend everybody with a vagina, the same thing that I would recommend everybody not with a vagina. If there's something going on in your body that is causing you to stress, go get it checked out. Please, please do. Please don't ever assume that something that you think

and feel is a problem is normal. But sometimes it is true that stuff you're worried Please do. Please don't ever assume that something that you think and feel is a problem is normal. But sometimes it is true that stuff you're worried might be a problem isn't. And because our culture and our society has ingrained in us that parts of our body are supposed to look a certain way or feel a certain way or smell a certain way, when really none of that is true. And I don't know that it's helpful to have like, you know, the famous vagina-cented candle. Yes.

Again, I don't know what it smells like. I did not purchase one, but whatever it is, okay, well, there's your vagina. There are like lots of other vaginas that smell a lot of other different ways that are just fine. Yeah. That have no problems. No problem at all.

If you think you have a problem with your vagina, please go get it checked out. That have no problems. No problem at all. If you think you have a problem with your vagina, please go get it checked out. If you think you have a problem with your eyeballs, please go get those checked out too. But the implication that a wet vagina is a sick vagina is very damaging and misinformed. There are lots of wet vaginas that are perfectly healthy. If you want or need to use artificial vaginal lubricant, that is fine, and not indicative of any inherent problem, or if you don't want or need to use vaginal lubricant.

That is also fine, and not indicative of any problem. It's a very personal thing, and all this shaming of, I think, the vagina, but also sexuality in certain members of our society who aren't supposed to embrace or explore or celebrate their own sexual power, sexual being, enjoyment of sexual activity, what their body can do, what it can allow them to feel. All of those things are normal. And quite frankly, people with penises have been celebrating it forever. Yeah, for a while.

So it's frustrating. At least since the Washington monument. It's, I would say before that, it's frustrating because. Meeting Tower of Pisa, that person has some, there are some inadequacies that they were trying to work through. It's very frustrating because these reactions... So it's so embarrassing to start leaning through. Oh no! It's not like that! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, left to end the right, want to tell you what to do with your vagina and what is a normal

vagina and what it should be like and look like and all these different things. And all of these messages are inappropriate and damaging. There is no need to do or carry around freshening wipes with you. There's no need for that. Just like there is no need to steam your vagina or put a jade egg inside it. And all of these things can be very damaging. The best case scenario is you're getting ripped off and you're going to waste some money. But the worst case scenario is in some of these cases, you're going to damage your body.

You're going to do harm to it. Hygiene is hygiene for all of us. Keep yourself well. There is no need, if you are a person with a vagina, to do special extra vaginal cleaning and maintenance that it isn't already doing for itself. And I think that whole aisle, which is still called the feminine hygiene aisle or feminine care aisle, I'm sorry. I mean, not everyone, because like there are menstrual products there, but almost every single product could be wiped out and we would still be just fine. There's one person that gets to the side that there's a problem with your vagina.

That's me. No. No. No. No. No, no. You, sorry, I messed up right at the end. I was feeling good about it. Well, I would say, I would say go, go really talk to your doctor about it because there are a lot of people I see

who really have been made to feel like there's a problem with their vagina and there isn't one. But they've gotten so many messages. I didn't even get into like the whole idea of vaginoplasty to like if you have a if you're a person with a vagina, but it doesn't look the way that you think of a genus supposed to look like you saw one in a movie or on TV or in a picture of a vagina that you think looks better than your vagina. And so you go have, you know, basically plastic surgery to fix your vagina to look more like those vaginas. That idea that there is one perfect vagina is not true.

Vaginas look as many different ways as there are people who have them. Like snowflakes. Thank you so much for listening to our program. We hope you enjoyed yourself and learned something about vaginas. As we say every episode, that's our traditional sign-offs. I like, I will say I am very partial to the appropriate words for these things. I think Vovas find vaginas fine,

try out labia for a while, you know, just embrace these terms, look at a diagram and really get to know these terms. I like them. If you want more soblins, you can go to the bookstore of your choice, be it online or, I mean, preferably online. Let's say online and get the sobans book. We read a little local bookstores are online too these days. Absolutely. And you can pick our book there. So there's audio and paper versions of the book.

Thanks for the catalog. And along, thanks to the taxpayers for these song medicines as the intro and outro of our program. Thanks to Max Fun Network for having us as a part of the family. And thank you to you for listening. We'll be with you again next week. But until then, my name is Justin McRod. I'm Sydney McRod. And as always, don't drill a part of the family. And thank you to you for listening. We'll be with you again next week. Until then, my name is Justin McRod. I'm Sydney McRod.

And as always, don't drill a hole in your head. Alright!