Scheananigans with Scheana Shay - Couples Therapy with Jessica Baum

Episode Date: June 10, 2022

In this episode, Scheana and Brock are joined by Jessica Baum for a couples therapy session! Jessica is a psychotherapist, author, relationship coach, and founder of the Self-Full Method. She talks about the importance of having compassion for yourself and your partner and why boundaries are so important. They also talk about triggers and tools for dealing with them in relationships. Both Scheana and Brock have great breakthroughs in this episode, leaving one of them in tears. Jessica has a new book coming out called "Anxiously Attached", be sure to preorder it now!   Book available on Amazon Link to Jessica on Instagram Link to Jessica's website      Follow us: @scheana @scheana        Go to www.justthrivehealth.com and use code SHAY at checkout and get 15% off   Go to www.manscaped.com and use code SHAY to get 20% off   Go to www.phdfemininehealth.com/win and get 20% with code SCHEANA   Go to www.article.com/shay and get $50 off your first purchase of 100 dollars or more   Produced By Dear Media See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. From Vanderpump Rules to Motherhood and everywhere in between, it's time to catch up with Sheena Shea. This is Shenanigans. And now here's your host, Sheena Shea. Hello, hello. Back in studio with my soon-to-be hubby. How you doing? Is this in studio or is this a hybrid in studio? Well, we are in studio. Our guest will be joining us virtually. Okay.

Do you know what you're co-hosting today? Do you even know the fun we're about to get into? Well, yeah. You just told me as I pulled into the parking lot three minutes ago. What was it, six minutes ago? So she is a couples therapist? She is a licensed mental health counselor who supports people who are struggling with anxiety, relationship conflict, marital issues, and codependent relationships. She's also an author. So this is everything we need in our life every single day. So you know how I just started individual therapy and you soon are signing up with, I know you already started

with Talkspace. I logged in, created my profile and yeah, I'm in purchase classes. So we're doing our individual therapy and I figured it would be fun to just, you know, start a little couples therapy on the podcast. So everyone gets to listen to our first session. Oh my God. Is that what's happening today? A little bit of it. No, we're interviewing her, but we can ask her opinions on maybe some recent debates or things going on in our life. We've got one debate in our life that has that. It's just the one, it's the one, which is the biggest thing you have when you're a parent. Our one problem we fight over is how we raise our daughter. I know. And it's the biggest thing in our life.

Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Tag somebody and I need some help. So her name is Jessica Baum. We have been going back and forth trying to get this scheduled for literally like two months. And finally, we've aligned our schedules.

We're on different ends of the country, different time zones. But where's Jessica based out of? She's in Florida. Okay. Yeah. All right. All the way over there. So yeah, but we are in LA.

I have had the best morning. I got to go and see good old Dr. Meller. It looks like Mueller, but Dr. Meller in Beverly Hills for some Botox and lips. And my lips are still a little numb right now. Dr. Meller in Beverly Hills for some Botox and lips. And my lips are still a little numb right now. So if you're watching the video and it looks like I'm talking funny.

She starts dribbling out of her face. No, I'm actually afraid to drink this bottle of water because my lips are still numb and I don't have a straw. It's going to be like, you know that moment in Christmas at the Cranks? He gets a Botox. He's like, it's all just coming out. Listen, Americans in your movie references you're so bad what how how do i get better at this how do i get better at movie references i don't know maybe you just need to watch them multiple times i do i what okay that's

the difference i don't watch movies multiple times i watch them and then i move on yeah is that how many times you watch christmas in the cranks oh my god i. I can't even count. Oh, it's a Christmas movie. I mean, every Christmas for sure. And usually more than once. Okay. All right. So let's go ahead and bring in Jessica and get the fun started. Hello. Hi. How are you? I'm good. How are you guys? We are so good. I'm glad we were able to finally make this work. I know we've been going back and forth and I'm so excited to have you on Shenanigans. Yeah, same here. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. Really stoked. I found out eight minutes ago of what's going on today. I thought I was joining in. So I'm excited to meet you and have a chat. He was like, wait, wait, who is she? What does she do? I was like, well, you know, she specializes in, she's a mental health counselor, but she specializes in,

you know, like relationship conflict, marital issues. And you're just a commodity right now. I just thought, so I've recently started individual therapy. He is starting individual therapy as well soon, but we do want to do couple therapy. And I thought this would be a good introduction to hear about what you do. Maybe, you know, we can tell you some things that have been going on in our relationship recently, and you could give us your expert opinion on how we can handle that better. Well, I mean, we didn't want to bring, I didn't want to walk into a counseling session. I want to hear, maybe let's talk to you a little bit and maybe you can figure out the

problem with us when we go through this. Exactly. So sure. I mean, I do a model counseling, so I'm happy to help in any way. And I, you know, I talk about like the anxious, avoiding dance and typical patterns that couples get stuck in. So whatever you guys want to talk about, we can go there. Yeah. So Jessica is the founder of the Relationship Institute of Palm Beach, which is a group practicing that provides couple therapy, family counseling, and addiction therapy. She helps create balanced partnerships and has a new book out called Anxiously Attached. So I want to hear more about your book. I know it's learning how to create boundaries, which is something I could personally use help with.

He tells me all of the time I need to make boundaries, and I'm just not good at that. Also, communicating with partners, gaining a clear understanding of how the nervous system is subconsciously influencing relationships. Wait, I want, I want this book. We need this book. Yeah. And also learning the true meaning of a healthy interdependent relationship amongst many others. Is that all right there? Oh, look at that. This is the book. Oh, it's got the love hearts on it. I had a friend recently asked me what my attachment style is. He goes, I feel like

you're an anxious attachment. And I'm like, honestly, I don't know what the attachment styles are. I've never taken the test, but I do think I'm the anxious attached type. I'm going to let you take the floor and tell us about your book, attachment styles and just everything. I'm so excited to have you here. Sure, sure. I'll start a little bit because maybe the audience doesn't know what attachment styles are. Exactly. That's what I said. I personally don't really know. I just think that I would be the anxious type. Yeah. So, I mean, so when we're young and we're with our parents and we're co-regulating and we're one unit with our

mother or primary caregiver, certain patterns get laid down in our nervous system, depending on how we were attuned to and how we were cared for. We learn strategies, so to speak. And so a good part of the population is secure, but there are other categories. There's anxious avoidant and then fearful avoidant. And so what happens if you're not getting enough attunement or your needs aren't getting met enough, you either can go into an anxious attachment, which that usually looks like some more codependent type behavior. So a lot of anxiety, wanting a lot of reassurance, sometimes a little bit more insecure. You're going to fight mode pretty easy.

If you feel, you know, attacked or you have a deep root of abandonment, there's an abandonment wound there. Sometimes you're conscious of that. And so that's because there was an inconsistency in some of this co-regulation and entombment. So it's like, you never feel like you're going to get enough and you could seek a lot of closeness and want a lot of attention from your partner because that feels really good. And so, and then there's another extremer, which is a more avoidant type of attachment where you don't need people as much. So you tend to self-regulate. Sometimes you're not always thinking about the other person. You're very good at taking care of your needs and you struggle with the needs of the other. That's just me pointing at Brock. Listen, I'm trying to listen. Yeah. And so these two types usually connect pretty well. And they're kind of opposite ends of the spectrum. And a lot of people are like, they can be more complicated relationships because one

responds with like an expanded nervous system and wants communication and connected. And the other one can retreat and shut down and need time and is a post-processor. So often what one needs in the moment is the opposite of what the other one needs in that moment. And they can get stuck in this unconscious fight almost or rupture that really, when you start to really understand how your nervous systems work and communicate a little bit differently and heal some of the abandonment or the fear of intimacy, or talk about closeness and separation and all of that, you start to kind of have these new conversations with your partner and they start to make sense. And you can bridge the gap in between some of these harder moments that we experience, that everyone experiences in relationship.

There's a dance around intimacy. There's a fear of abandonment that shows up. There's boundary issues that can come up. I mean, these are common things. can come up. I mean, these are common things and knowing how you developed and why you are responding the way you are is half the work to kind of changing and having these conversations with your partners. I'm into this. I walked into this. That's exactly what we want to talk about. I'm like, no, we're not going into couple therapy right now, but because that is one of the lanes she specializes in. I just thought this would be a good episode to co-host.

Oh, because here's the thing. I feel like, especially now more than ever, we are taking a positive look at mental health and also just kind of people's feelings. And how do we understand these feelings? How can we understand or get a perspective of where someone's coming from? Because I feel like a lot of our arguments that we have, a lot of the arguments arguments people have outside of these walls are based on perspective, based on their reality and how they have gone through those experiences, which means for their reaction. And I always use the term, especially when we're on a reality show, right? And people get very offended right now. And you never know how that person or why that person's triggered that way, right? And I use it, and you might be able to help me with this one. It's like a beaten dog as opposed to a non-beaten dog. You

might go to a dog that's being, gets hit at. So every time you go to pat it, it's got a, it's got a knee jerk reaction because he doesn't, they don't understand that that pat's good. Whereas you go to a dog that is reflects that. And it's like, oh, pat me. You can pat them and you get a different response. It's the same action, but the dog's going to respond differently because of its past, because of its perspective on that situation. That's like such a great analogy. And we have something called neuroception, which is like, we're constantly scanning our environment for safety or threat. And depending on our childhood, what might cue me, you know, for threat would be different than you. So understanding that every reaction, there's an origin and there's a reason why, and getting more curious rather than

judging the behavior or the response is really good for yourself and good in your partnership. Like what's really going on rather than focusing so much on the behaviors because behaviors are really just the outcome. If the dog is barking, abiding you, it's the outcome of fear underneath. Right. And so when you start to say, okay, what's underneath this behavior or what is this emotion really telling me? Am I in terror? Am I in pain? Because usually under anger, there's either terror or pain as well. So you kind of want to get three levels deeper and you do all of that with curiosity with your partner rather than blaming. levels deeper. And you do all of that with curiosity with your partner rather than blaming. So you mentioned fear. And this is one of the things in our relationship that I feel is one of the biggest things we fight over is he feels like I am just afraid of, you know, something

happening to my daughter or just just there's always fear. And he thinks that a lot of my decisions are fear driven. And so, you know, I am in individual therapy. I just started a couple of weeks ago and I'm trying to, you know, work on myself. We're going to do some EMDR therapy and whatnot. But what would you say for others who are like me and do have, you know, a lot of fear driven decisions or. Well, let's pull it back there real quick because you're kind of opening up a can of worms i've been like hey this is because it's it's a lot deeper than just kind of that i feel like the first question which we talked about at the beginning of this conversation was kind of understanding kind of the similar because you are on that side of

nervousness right yeah and so that's a category it's not just one size fits all with this is the problem with health, right? Everyone's trying to fix that one thing. There's multiple reasons why you're there. That takes a while to figure that out, honey. I think what would be easier to understand is kind of how do you ask better questions, right? Of the initial argument, because we argue, like most couples, we're happily married and we're happily together and we argue. How do you get to those three or four questions, that level that you just mentioned just then? Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, it is complicated, but I do think it's okay to ask that question around like, so sometimes anxious people want to control the external environment a lot. And so other people can be

frustrated with them. They can feel like they're being controlled, but really what the anxious person is doing is trying to make their world safe. So if I can control the world out there, my inner world doesn't feel so chaotic. So when I go to therapy, I deal with the chaos inside. I deal with what comes up for me when I feel like I need to let go of things. I deal with the fears. I play them out. I understand where the origin is. And it sounds maybe for abandonment or something bad might happen. Like there's an amygdala part of our brain that's primed or hypervigilant that the shoe's going to drop. going to drop. And so understanding that and being more compassionate around that and understanding that that's built in there and not getting rid of that part, but seeing that that part of you is trying to protect you from your biggest fear. So sometimes being held in your biggest fear in the right way, or understanding why this fear got there in the first place by tracing it back. And it can be as simple as you had one anxious parent because we internalize our parents

and that part of you lives inside of you. And so we're going to rework and work through some of these ideas in your head, but it's really the sensations in your body. Like if you run a little bit anxious, you'll apply it to anything, but you don't realize that it lives in your body. And we make up all these stories. Like I have to control this, or this needs to be a certain way, just a way to feel safe in a very out of control world. And that usually starts very, very early, you didn't feel maybe completely calm in your home. So you develop this way of controlling your world to try to keep a sense of calmness from within. And that's your, like 99.9% of us, myself included, like this is not uncommon. I feel like a lot of your listeners myself included, like this is not uncommon.

I feel like a lot of your listeners, honey, and everybody can definitely relate to that. Yeah, for sure. So when we were setting up this interview, they gave me a list of topics that Jessica specializes in. And literally, I hope we have time for every single one of them because they're all so interesting. One of them is the nervous system. And this morning we were listening to a podcast and he was talking about the nervous system and cortisol and things that, can you explain that a little more? And then I want her to get into how our nervous system impacts our relationships and unconsciously drives our behavior. Yeah. I think I'm, first off, I'll first admit it, I'm a self-helper.

Like I want to go out there and listen to things to help for it. And I listened to one really important message to me from this podcast. One of the messages was kind of how powerful our mind really is. And in the storyline sense, we're sleeping, body's in bed, we're completely safe. But in our mind, you're having a dream. It might be having a nightmare and you're running and you can't run fast enough and you're stuck, you're dying and you wake up and you're panicking. And that's just a great example of how control of your mind can be.

Even though you're in your bed, your body's sweating, it's clammy, your heart rate's going. And that pressure, the toxins that are in your body are from that fearful flight, but you wake up and you're in a bed. So then when you take the power of your brain and you think about, let's say, for example, when this was the message you used, someone got cheated on and they had a bad relationship. And then the next day or a year later or three years later, that person's moved on. But that person that was cheated on continually wakes up every day and goes to themselves in their head. It was like, oh, I got cheated on.

Like this happened. This is me. It was my fault. Ask those questions. But what they're subconsciously doing without knowing is triggering that body to go back into that state of that feeling. And then imagine every day having that conversation and putting your body into that feeling and that state as opposed to an opposite version of that,

like that has happened. It's your past. The future is more brighter, but let's try and keep your body, keep your mind looking that way to keep that energy. It's just really, I feel, I felt like my message from that was your brain has so much control on your body, but not just how you look, but really how it feels from the inside out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a really good example. I would say your body has way more control on your brain. So like the, the sensations you store around an event and then happen, or the trauma lives in your body and then your brain makes up a story, a narrative about it. Right. And so depending on how big the sensations were or how old we can look at memory,

there's different, there's memory that's sensational and it's, they're really big sensations to have. So if you go through an experience and you have these big sensations, and then you make up the story that I'm not enough, or I'm not good enough, or I'm going to be left. Those sensations probably lived there before that event even happened. And now different things in our life are confirming the core belief, right? The story that we have, which is linked to a sensation and a feeling. And so what you really want to do is you want to get to the root of the sensation and the feeling because the narrative happens second. The sensation happens first.

Our body is sending 80% of the information to our brain at a much faster rate than our brain is even working. So if we're cued, oh, we're going to be left, or we're going to be cheated on because she's looking the other way. She's looking on her phone. Our body starts to feel scared and it sends the message up to our brain. And then we make up the story. Does that make sense? You just fill in the blank and that becomes kind of, no, okay. When we make up that story, and this is the perfect example we have, when that's not made up, but when your mind kind of takes that shortcut to the end result of that possibility, could that potentially be a shortcut? Even though the action wasn't taken, your mind got there and for example, our daughter likes to put rocks in her mouth.

That allows her to put one or two rocks in the mouth. And then I'm like, okay, stop it. It's a rock, honey. It's not food. I've not seen you stop it. Okay. Anyway, then the trigger moment for my partner would be like, there's a rock in her mouth. And it immediately goes to that place of fear. Like, no, no, this is going to happen. It goes straight down there. Because it's not food. Is that, could that be, would that skewer kind of the perspective of that incident? Or could it, could it, you see something that you didn't really see, or you think something that didn't actually happen?

Well, you know, there's a healthy degree of anxiety, right? We want to have anxiety. It prepares us for a game. It prepares us for a test. Thank you. It can prepare us for something bad too. And I think that there's, it's not a black and white answer. So if, if there's an experience of someone choking or knowing that this could be dangerous, her sensitivity to the threat might be higher than your sensitivity. But the. But if she goes into hysterics around it, could send your daughter into hysterics around it with the stone in the mouth. So you want to be really conscious around, you know, the fear and how to handle the fear in the most

calm way if possible. I don't think it's that black and white. I think what I might, I mean, I've gotten into a few car accidents in my life early on. And every time my husband gets in the car and he's a much better driver than me, I'm like, drive slow, honey. And he's like, uh-huh. And he looks at me like I have 20 heads. There's no way he's driving slow. But I have such an experiences in my life where getting in a car was scary that I tell

everyone I love to drive slow. He doesn't listen to me, but I need to say that. I don't know, for whatever reason, that fear of what I've experienced early on still lives in me. And I've done EMDR and therapists, but it's okay. It's good to make sense of why these things are happening. I think when you can start to have compassion, okay, this lives inside of me because of this, or I can link this back.

Then I think you can have different conversations around it rather than just being annoyed with each other. You're more tender with each other. Thank you. What? You want to go first. I disagree. Like his, I agree. Compassion. One thing I said to you this morning is he doesn't have compassion for the situations and for the fears I have. I know most of my triggers. I know I'm very self-aware. I understand where they come from. I just need him to have some more compassion for the situation and say, honey, I understand that you're afraid

of this, but like, don't worry, I've got your back or like, I'm not going to let that happen. But instead it's just like, no, like you just are very quick to be like, don't do it that way. That's the wrong way. I think the message in that and message in what was said I've got was that it's not black and white and I see it as black as white. That's the message in that and message in what was said I've got was that it's not black and white and I see it as black as white. That's the message I got out of it. Yeah. I just wanted to point out the compassion. Not all the time, but men get frustrated because they want to solve it and fix it. And so this isn't about solving or fixing her anxiety. If you see it, it might be frustrating

for you because it doesn't make logical sense for you. And you don't have to solve or fix this. You just have to see that she's struggling with something and just notice that. You know what I mean? I think men often want to fix the problem. And I think what women are looking for is for them to just be with us. Just chill. You don't have to fix it.

Take a load off. Just let me have my anxiety. Just be next to me while I'm chill. You don't have to fix it. Take a load off. Just let me have my anxiety. Just be next to me while I'm anxious. You don't need, but happens sometimes if she's really anxious, your nervous system unconsciously might be picking up on the anxiety. Yeah. So then you're having what we call a domino effect. And that, that happens unconsciously. She could be anxious and our system goes into fight flight and your system picks up on it. So she's signaling danger to you. And so you're like, oh, danger, danger, stop it.

Right. And so what really happening is she's signaling your nervous system to turn on in that moment. And your reaction is to just stop it. Right. So just being more conscious that, first of all, neither one of you are doing that on purpose. These are automatic nervous system responses that your two nervous systems are connected. They create one energetic unit.

It's like our bolognese, our family recipe. Now we have a special recipe, yeah. Yeah, and when she's experiencing anxiety, there might be something to say that your system is picking up on that. And what you're doing with that is treating it the way you probably would treat it in yourself. But that's not working for her. And vice versa.

And you might notice that he's not trying to be mean to you. He's trying to fix his anxiety. That's a reflection of picking up on some of yours. So you're both having your own experiences around this. And so it's just good to kind of start to look at it from a new lens. And that's where I think I need help with what I want to try and do is that's why I would ask you the first question. How do I ask those deeper questions? Because I'm actively wanting to try and look at it from a new lens instead of, because I think I do feel, I mean, I don't say it in a

time and moment, but you're right. As soon as I see the problem arise, I'm like, honey, this is the solution. And I feel like I get there and like problem solved, you know, it's like, Hey, the world keeps spinning, but it's not, it's not black and white. We need to live in gray, honey. No, it's not a color. Our own capacity to be in something that's uncomfortable will expand when you realize that your job isn't to fix it, but just to hold it. And so that can be work for all of us. I mean, it can be work for both of you to hold it a little bit more and not always look for an external solution for something that feels hard inside. And that means maybe not doing every single protective matter out there, right? Being

with the anxiety that I want to protect my daughter from everything, but I can't. So what does that feel like inside of me? And can I be with that part of me more and more and more and start to understand it's good to be protective, but there might be too much fear driving the bus and starting to understand it's trying to protect you from loss or something deeper. Exactly. And on that note, I'm going to take a second to process that and we're going to take a little break. Do you ever feel tightness in your tummy sitting in rush hour traffic or get sick to your stomach before a big presentation? Because I know I have. And that's because your gut, not your brain, is responsible for your stress response. So to manage stress and feel calm and in control, you have to give your

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to claim visit article.com slash Shea and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. Again, that's article.com slash Shea to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Okay. Processed. As you were saying on the break, honey. I was just, this conversation got me going because from the beginning meeting with you, you opened up and you talked about like polar opposites and how we attract. And I tell you what, this woman is my woman and she's the best. And then on the same problem is I try and fix everything and I need to learn more gray, but I'm really excited to keep going through this podcast and learning more. But I wanted to ask a question before you jumped in, honey, about age limit. Is there,

is there any point that we can imprint on our child to cause these things or to be aware of a situation so that we don't imprint on our child to try and like, to give her that balance, not, not one side or the other, not the cold shoulder or like the full neglect or the full support role. Is there a, is there a. Is there a secret recipe out there to do this? Yeah. I mean, so you've already imprinted on her a lot. So from womb actually to 18 months, the baby doesn't even fully develop. And it's the quality of the connection with the primary caregivers that grows the nervous system, that grows more of the heart. There's the sympathetic parasympathetic isn't even in there yet. So if mom was really attuned and had a lot of ability to self-soothe,

you're building those pathways early on, but the more work you do on yourself and the more presence you bring with your own being, the more present you can see her. And the more you allow, don't you, you don't need to fix her. Even you need to be curious with her, right. And allow her to have an emotional experience and not always make her happy or make her feel better or give her a cookie or you, you know, it's, it's like, it's a being with in a new way. It's an allowing uncomfortable situations to show up and not moving people out of their emotional experiences. And I think that she'll get both of you. So she has the best of both worlds and

there's a mixture there, which she's very lucky. Yeah. I think the more you can show up for yourself and hold that space and do your own work, I think it flows out to the people you love around you. And the compassion, the compassion you build for yourself, for your anxious parts, or for anything that you're going through is also the compassion you start to build for, oh, look at this behavior that she's doing. Well, let's not just look at the behavior. Let's get curious what's underneath the behavior. Cause parents always want to yell at their kids for what they're doing, but they never really ask, oh, what were the feelings going on inside of you before you did that? Right. Like,

like let's get to the root of it. A behavior is just a product of what's going on inside. So doing that own work and the work in the coupleship and understanding the nervous system allows you to show up for your kid a little bit differently. Yeah. And that's the thing I've said that it is the best of both worlds because she has polar opposite parents. And I think we have great chemistry. And that was another topic I wanted to get into is healthy chemistry and what is healthy chemistry versus your nervous system being activated. So, you know, those girls or guys who go on a date and then after the date, they're like, oh, this person didn't call me back for three days or ghosted me. And then all of a sudden they called them back on the fourth day and they're like, I'm

just so much more interested now. That would be bad chemistry. That would really be bad chemistry. You're interested because they abandoned you. You're interested because you're trying to prove your sense of self-worth through your relationship. Why are you interested in someone who's not being consistent, warm, and receptive to you who isn't showing up for you? Right? Like that's not chemistry. That's like the danger, like component that's only going to probably

re-traumatize you. Healthy chemistry comes when you both can authentically be yourselves, go out in the world and be yourselves and bring that energy back. And you're inherently different and you start to build trust, but also that trust leads to autonomy and it leads to being able to be your individual self and having the sense that you're a coupleship too. And you're not being smothered by the relational space too much, but you're also not too separate from each other. There's a coming and a going and a bringing of energy constantly into the relationship because you have a good sense of self, a strong enough sense of self. Sometimes with anxious people, and I talk about it is they don't have a strong enough sense of self. They can self-abandon. They can give too

much of themselves away. Self-abandon. You think I do that? Look, I don't know if you guys have watched the show, but probably people listening to it for us to show. And I, I feel like self-abandonment is something that, and I might be wrong on this, on this context of it. I think I need a deeper definition of what? Self-abandonment. Like self-sacrificing. Like you'll sacrifice all your needs. Oh, that's so me. Oh my God. I self-abandoned the shit out of myself. It's usually like a fear.

So again, if I don't meet the needs, then I'll feel this. Or they might think that I'm letting them down. Or I might be disappointing them. Or when I was young, I was made to believe that meeting the other needs or adapting in that way meant that I would get the love that I needed. And so if you're in a partnership where you can learn to say no and really listen and get in, some people need to get in touch with what their actual needs are, right? But codependent or someone with a more anxious style tends to be hypervigilant of other people's needs more than even their own needs. And that's

an adaptive strategy to survive. So you might know what he's feeling or what he needs before you even know what you need. I know what my dog needs downstairs. I know when he's thirsty. Okay. I'm very aware. I'm a therapist. I usually have been to other people. So it's about being in relationships is about both. I can hear my needs. I hear their needs. And we navigate this through compromise and it's fluid. And I feel safe enough in your case to ask for my needs to say no and know that I'm not disappointing. you know, it's okay. And the more you do that, the easier it gets and it will get easier and easier. And that's where boundaries come into play because if no one taught you how that it was okay to take those steps, then when you do kind of go out on the limb and disappoint someone, but take care of yourself, there's going to be a lot of anxiety that comes up with that. So it's, you know, I love like all these people want to be like, do this boundary,

do that boundary. And those are external things. And if it was so easy, we'd all be doing it. There's something else driving the behavior. And you need to look at what is the fear or what is the disappointment or what's stopping me from taking care of myself. It's usually much, much deeper than some external boundary. You know, I used to work too much and I didn't set great boundaries for myself and work was my safe place. And I really had to get underneath the fear that made me work too much in order to cut back. And we all do it. And it's not as simple as setting that external boundary.

It's pretty deep work. And if you weren't taught that, then you have to reteach yourself that and do it with people who who like your husband would be the perfect person. You can say no to him. I'm just saying no to him. I'm a big believer in kind of like that because of the self-sacrifice that I see her make on the daily with people. And that's one of the reasons why she's my partner. I see her give herself, give her happiness. It doesn't, I don't even think it's, she doesn't even think about giving it up. She just is 100% on board on everybody else. And then when it comes back to her, if there's anything left in the tank and if there's nothing, she's okay with that.

And I want her to have more left in the tank for her. And then you know what? Don't give that energy to these people because they're not going to give it back to you. And that's my like interpretation of that. But I'd love to go into the deeper work of that. What would be a good exercise that we could practice together to try and fit? Cause right. Cause she had set her first ever boundary with me in three years. She turned around and she said, if it's over seven, if it's under 70 degrees, my daughter has a jacket on. And I looked at her and

I said, okay, it's the first time she put her foot down. It's the first time she put her foot down. And I was like, you know what? Fine. Because you set a boundary, I'll do it. I know 68 degrees isn't cold, but we live on the water. We're at the beach. It's windy often. We go for walks with her several times a day. And I'm like, look, if it's under 70, just put a sweater on her. You don't have to justify yourself, honey. It's your boundary. And you said it. I'm justifying it to the listeners who think I'm crazy for saying 70 degrees of sweater weather. There's a high wind there. Yeah, we're going to add the wind factor in there.

We've got the wind chill on the breeze off the water. Yeah. I mean, I guess supporting, I guess it actually probably would be really easy for you to set a boundary for your daughter than yourself. You know, because you're protective of her and you're looking out for her, but you, you have a little girl inside of you too. Right. And you need to make sure that you are listening to what she needs and setting those boundaries in your adult relationships or in other places that you're advocating for her as much as you would advocate for your daughter.

Like if someone was taking from your daughter or depleting your daughter, what would you do? Oh yeah. I would lose my shit. Right. So I would want to do anything I could to fix that. Right. And so you have a part of you that is very aware of that externally. And now you need to remember that that there's a little part of you that you also need to protect and learn how to take care of in that same way. And I think when people have kids, it's like the best way to be like, oh, that part to kind of learn, okay, I have to treat myself the same way I would treat my daughter. I wouldn't want her in that situation. I wouldn't want her doing this. I'm just as precious. I'm just as precious as she is. And I think I said this to Sheena. I'm like, honey, the words you say to your daughter, the words you say to yourself

in front of your daughter is how your daughter is going to think she can talk to herself. And I think that's a big one for anybody. I mean, everybody really, but as a parent now, more than ever, I'm more aware of how I act around summer because I really want to be a role model there. But yeah, like I think we said it to you, like how parents speak to themselves, how they think it's okay to say, and this is a problem I have with social media and the world we live in with the photos and the Photoshop. It's like, don't look at a photo and be like, Ooh, this is bad. This is bad in front of my child. Or remember that what you're saying to yourself, would you say that to your child as well? And I think we all have like that critical

side of us. And I actually, I talk about that in the book, it's a protector. So if I'm not beautiful enough, I might not be worthy or I'm not, you know, there's these things that we value about ourselves that like, if we don't feel like we are that it brings on a lot of other feelings, but it's protecting us from feeling rejected or a lot of other things. So looking at it, so it's really like, I, I'm really hard on myself because I don't want to feel rejected or because I haven't accepted all these parts of myself yet. And I do, I do think it is, we all have a critical side. I mean, every woman does good luck getting a woman to like, you know, it's, it's work. Yeah. It's, it's work to be kinder to yourself. But I think in doing the work that you'll be doing, you will be kinder to yourself because you will start talking to

yourself in the same way you would tell her how beautiful she was no matter what. And so you will start talking to yourself in the same way you would tell her how beautiful she was, no matter what. And so you will start to see that that type of love also needs to be turned inward as well. So tell us a little bit more about your book and what else the listeners who are going to purchase this book. I'm buying this book. As soon as we leave out here, I'm buying it. I know. And because like the timing of when we confirmed this, I was like, I don't have time to get the book and read it before this interview. I'll read it though. I know. I wish I had known that.

It's on pre-order now, but I could have sent you guys. Oh, wait. It's not even out yet. That's right. Yeah. I could send you guys a widget of it or something. So you have a digital copy of it. Oh my God.

I would love that. Yeah. I'll send you guys a digital copy next week, or if I can figure it out tonight, someone might have to help me. This book is just about a lot about how you adapted as a child. So you are working with parts work and the nervous system. I go into how fight, flight, freeze lives in our system and how that's cued in our relationship. It helps you kind of locate where your core wound is and where it kind of lives in your body. And then there's a middle piece around doing some work on meditating and going into your body and kind of locating the sensations within.

And then I apply it all to your relationships. So it works with the anxious avoidant trap that we can get into how one person might need to fix it right now. The more anxious person, the other person is a post-processor and how to kind of navigate those relationships and find the middle path for people who are very different. Learning how to like build. Okay. So building security means taking in secure people.

So if your husband is someone that you feel is really loving and your therapist is someone that you're really loving, bringing those voices in to talk to you, if your voice is hard and critical, is how we start to internalize loving people. Because if our parents were stressed out or critical or hard, we internalize them. So then we have to re-bring in healthy energy. And I know that feels like a very far out concept, but if you're ever in a hard place and you can think about the person who's nurtured you the most, when you bring in their energy and you're like, oh, what a voice, you're starting to soothe from within. And anxious people

are usually lacking self-regulation because they didn't get proper soothing. So it's about building that neuroplasticity back up. So I talk about all the ways in which you can work towards earned security. If you have more anxious wiring in your brain in this book, and it was, it's just really important for me because when I was younger, I thought I'm codependent, but the truth is it all comes down to like attachment styles and adaptations. It's not about shame. It's about learning. How did I adapt and how do I work with these adaptations? So they start working for me and I start healing some of this stuff and, you know, making different decisions that aren't all out of fear. So the book is available for pre-order now. We're pre-ordering it. I would

love a digital copy as well, but we're pre-ordering it. I'm going to have everyone else pre-order now. We are pre-ordering it. I would love a digital copy as well, but we're pre-ordering it. I'm going to have everyone else pre-order it and we're going to take another little break. All right. Let's face it, ladies. It's not uncommon for feminine order to be more noticeable in the summer due to the combination of sweat

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code Shay and manscaped.com. That's 20% off with free shipping at manscaped.com and use code Shay. Unlock his confidence and always use the right tools for the job with Manscaped. So before the break, we had gotten into self-abandonment and I've now had this realization that I do that on the daily. But what I also want to talk about is what it means to be self-full. So like becoming self-full versus selfless and just distinguishing codependent traits. Okay. Yeah, that's a great question. And so self-full, selfless, selfish are all states and we all enter them all the time. Like there isn't a time when I've been selfish.

I've been selfless. Selfful is kind of the middle path. So someone who's selfless adapts by giving themselves away, by self-sacrificing. They actually become homeless because they start tracking the bodies of other people as a way to stay safe. They're monitoring other people. So they become like disembodied in that way. And a selfish person also can become disembodied by disconnecting from their body.

They can numb out a little bit, they can dissociate, you know, so both of these are not embodied states, but they're adapt, they're survival states. They're both in sympathetic arousal. One is kind of detaching or just thinking about themselves and not really connecting. And the other one's thinking about something outside of themselves so much that they're not even in their body. So that's a selfless state. So what I talk about is expanding our ability to be in a self-full state. And that's kind of like knowing what our needs are deeply, giving and receiving equally. Self-fullness means deeper connection because we feel safer in our body. And so if we're in a selfless state to survive, there's no, that's okay. It's just

noticing, okay, that, that state is a little bit more fear-based and selfish state is actually fear-based too. Both of them are survival states. And the goal is to move to self-full. That's when we're in what we call eventual connection. We're in fluid connection. I feel really safe. We're exchanging. We're open. I can empathize. I can give, but I can also say, no, I can attune to your needs, but we're not always in that state. Many people, especially here, we run on the sympathetic nervous system. We just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And we're busy, busy, busy. And our busyness takes us out of our body and, and it makes us kind of detached from ourselves. And so being selfful is about slowing down and being with what is and learning to depend on healthy people and meeting our needs and learning to say no and

learning when to say yes. And a relationship is fluid. All our relationships should be fluid. It's not about this person gets all their needs met and you get all, it's a fluidity. Fluid is such a good word to use to kind of like to flow through that. If someone struggles with boundaries in the first place, the cue to set them in the beginning never happens. So then the buildup happens and then the oversetting happens when they're like flooded or beyond like their capacity. So that's a normal thing that happens until they learn to make that, take that action sooner. Wow. Jessica, you, I need her in my pocket. I just need you in my pocket all day. And I'm just going to be fun. I can't wait to read this book.

Yeah, no, I'm excited as well so selfful versus selfless self-abandonment learning a lot about myself but here's the thing honey we are all all of these you can find me yeah we no one's perfect i don't want to pick on you i'm in every we're in these states all day long like i think i wouldn't have written the book if i didn't feel selfless at certain points in my life and still do. I mean, I think it's about awareness. I think a lot of people are running around in all these States and they're just not as aware. It's a hundred percent. I think it's awareness.

I think you write in this book and making it accessible, I'm going to pump it out to everybody because this is all we need to do is just be to know. And if we know a little bit, then we'll be interested to know more. And maybe just, maybe we can keep learning from that. Yeah. Yeah. And like bringing a full circle, the more we know, the more compassion we can have for

ourselves and the more compassion we can have for our partners and their behaviors. Compassion, honey. I'll work on it. I promise you. I'm going to read a book. Have you heard of this book? I'm about to buy it. Yeah.

Pre-order it now. I promise you. I'm going to read a book. Have you heard of this book? I'm about to buy it. Yeah. Pre-order it now. One of the other things I wanted to talk to you about is you had mentioned way earlier in the podcast about a trigger. So what is a trigger and what are some tools you can use when you're triggered in your relationship? Oh, wow. So that's a deep topic. That was pretty loaded. I know. Yeah, loaded. So a trigger is a cue, inner and outer cue that brings up a sensation that can be unbearable, unpainful or scary and sends your nervous system into fight or flight.

And it can feel disproportionate to what is going on in the moment. So if he rolls his eyes at you and your body just lights up, it could be because you're feeling not seen or not heard or disrespected in some way. And so it's bringing something deeper up inside of you. And so we all, I like to, I like to say instead of trigger, cause it brings up shame and trauma. I like to say what's being awakened, what's coming up inside of me. What can I look at a little bit differently to hold it and see where it's originating from and reframe that word trigger? Because our society loves to use the word triggered.

And so when I say, when I have a really painful experience come up inside of me, I'm like, what is waking up inside of me? Because if it's that big and it's that sensational, it's old. No matter any way you look at it, that's how, yeah. Like trauma stored. It's stored because if, if he rolled his eyes and not, and you know, you're like, yeah, I know he loves me. It's not really impacting me. It's not hitting something deeper and vice versa. And so, you know, want to know that when you're quote unquote triggered, it means that something's deeply being activated in you. It doesn't make proportional sense in the here and now,

although you think it does in that moment, but it's a thematic thing of, I'm not feeling seen, or I feel unlovable, or you're always going to leave me, whatever that story is that you were talking about, that mind makes up that story, but it's that sensation that lives very, very deep inside. So I like to reframe trigger to what is being awakened and then I can be curious about it. And when I get curious about it, I can hold it and see and connect it to its origin a little bit easier. And my partner can be too. So if you have a big feeling inside of you, it's time to say, okay, instead of like getting

rid of this feeling, now we need to be with it and get curious around what's being awakened in this moment. Hold it. Yeah. Hold that and then go from there. Yeah. With your little girl too. Yeah.

When she's having a big feeling, just say, oh, what's so scary? Okay. Where do you feel it in your body? And okay, let's breathe through it, you know, and help her work through it. I know. I can't wait until she can communicate better with us. She's only a year. She communicates. You know, right now it's just crying and you're like, what's wrong? I don't know. she can communicate better with us she's only a year so communicates

you know right now it's just crying and you're like what's wrong I don't know I'm trying to fix you let me hug you I feel like when I look I know like you say when you look at your dog it's not it's a dog but she knows when the dog's hungry or when the dog needs a drink she woke up from her nap and she was very upset hyperventilating and we're like what is she sick is it like we didn't know what it was. We just held her until she calmed down. And then, and then we got to like, we got to experience that with her. And that's, that's so important. A mother can tell a difference between a regular cry and a cry that's sympathetic. So there's a different cry in there. That's like,

I am scared. I am petrified. You want to be alert and you do want to attune to that, you know, and then a regular cry, you can be okay. And then I would say, if she's just kind of playing and you're feeling like anxiety, let her play and be with your anxiety. You don't always have to make contact in those moments. So, you know, noticing that about yourself, but definitely that whole thing where you let your baby cry in the crib till they exhaust themselves is like the worst thing you can do. If she is is screaming in terror you want to soothe her she doesn't have a pathetic this difference i feel like when he's tried to do this the whole sleep training thing and he's like don't go in there we're getting to the five minute mark and i'm like

oh my god it's the longest five minutes of my life but out of respect for him and him wanting to try this I love you guys method I'm like okay and we're at like the two three four at that fourth minute for that one last minute I'm like she is in terror she's about to fight me to get in that goal we are never coming back for her. I am so against this. You guys are like the perfect example. So different capacities to be with someone who's uncomfortable, you know, and not make yourself uncomfortable. And, you know, I think there's a middle path always. Like you don't want her to scream in terror. Yet you also don't want to attend to every little thing.

She can learn to work some things out on their own. So attuning to that level within her, it's going to be different for you than it is for him. His capacity for her to be uncomfortable is bigger than your capacity for her to be uncomfortable. Listen, honey, the reason why she knows this is because we're not alone in this subject. So I hope everyone listening can kind of bond over this as well, because that was one thing I really enjoyed doing as a couple and going out there having therapy. But what we did was we watched Married at First Sight, completely random. But the best thing about Married at First Sight is they get together with other couples that are in the same situation and they realize their crazy stuff, their problems are the

same in every other relationship. It just comes down to the capacity of each person in it. And that's the same with raising the kid, honey. We all go through these things. But yeah, listen, five minutes. I felt like we met in the middle. We said five minutes. But yeah, when she gets upset, the middle is five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes.

That's the middle. Okay. And then after that, we hold her. But she's never made it past five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. That's the middle. Okay. And then after that, we hold her, but she's never made it past five minutes, guys. She's, she's cried for like five minutes. And then after that, that's it. That's her, that's her max. She's like, all right, no one's coming in here.

I'm actually fine to go to sleep. I'm just going to take my binky. And our daughter does this really kind of like thing. She sits up, puts a binky in her mouth and she falls asleep sitting upright, which isn't probably good for her posture at all. We didn't know this until the first night because the only time we got to sleep train summer was because mom went to Mexico for three nights. And so daddy had three nights to get her in sleep training.

And when we call it sleep training, it was just me, just three minutes, five minutes. I was in there. Kind of Ferber method-ish. Yeah, whatever. We met in the middle. But after the next day, perfect. She goes to sleep. We put her down. I was in there. Kind of Ferber method-ish. Yeah, whatever. We met in the middle. But after the next day, perfect. She goes to sleep. We put her down.

She wakes herself up. She puts a binky. She's better at self-soothing now. She's developed her senses and she's not in a terrible, there's not a terrible cry that comes out from her when she cries. She's just like cries to try and get somebody. Then she stops and she calms down and then goes again. But it's understanding that. understanding that we're not alone.

Yeah. And I would say up until 18 months, it is important that she's soothed by her mom or both of you actually, you know, because she doesn't have her parasympathetic completely built in. So it's okay to let her cry a little bit, but if it, if it gets escalated and you hear it a little louder she doesn't have the complete development correct yeah i agree i didn't let her cry out like that you're making me out to be like no i'm just saying that's the five minute one for her

yeah there's another call we'll put a point scoring above us over our head every time you pointed to me every time i looked at you into this quote. Yeah. I mean, I would say like not letting her cry in a sympathetic way is important. And I would also say for you, not attuning to everything, you know, like, no, that's not the right word. Knowing that if you, if your anxiety up and you need connection, know that's more about you than her. So starting to recognize that within you. Yeah. No, that's a very good point. I started, I actually was about to get a tissue earlier and this is just because of what I was talking about, like the impact that us as parents have. And then I don't know if you're fully familiar, but in my previous relationship, I did have two little ones. So is there something that

I can do, especially for my older boy, he was about three when we separated three to four, and then they're in their own relationship with their stepdad. Is there something in there that I can work towards to try and be, to try and help them? Because I don't want to have me leaving them be a, be that burden on their life. Like they have a brilliant mom. Her mom did a great job with the kids. They have a great stepdad. Ever since I've been out of the picture, there's always been a male role model there, but that sense of abandonment. And as we've started connecting with them again, we started talking through Zoom, through FaceTime. My little daughter was not a problem. She jumped back on and was like,

Hey, like, you know, introducing herself because they were so small when I was left, but my little boy didn't want to say hello to me. Obviously it comes with it. Like I feel the emotion just like in my, I feel the residency, like how sad that is for you. Yeah. You know what the best thing is to do is to really validate the experience for him, you know? So if one or both of them want to open up and say, you know, daddy, it hurt when you left, even though I can see that it's really hurt you to leave. You want to say, yeah, that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. It hurts that it hurt you.

And you want to give them permission to express that to you. So you can say, yeah, this wasn't ideal. And you're allowed to have pain around this. And you're allowed to have sadness around this. And guess what? You get to repair that now. But you get to repair that by being in that space with them and helping them understand that that wasn't an easy decision for you. And that if they do have pain around it, allowing them to have the pain with you and not feeling shame around that, holding it with them in that way.

feeling shame around that, holding it with them in that way, and really kind of joining and validating that experience for them will actually be a catalyst for you guys to become even closer because you're allowing them to have the experience of it. And you can repair that now by showing up in that way. The last thing you want to do is discount it, you know? Yeah. Okay. Oh, I love that. You're so sensitive and you totally opened up that's beautiful yeah thank you so much i'm i really was looking forward to this interview and this is good honey this is good for us yeah this book yes available for pre-order now jessica bomb anxiously attached seriously thank you so much for your time this was very very beneficial and i hope you guys all learned

something too anything else you want to say before we say goodbye i think you guys are such a beautiful couple i really the energy between you guys, it's just so beautiful. And just thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Jessica. It was great. Sorry to lose you at the end, but thank you for lessons we learned. I'm so happy to see a guy cry.

You know how many people would benefit from someone like you crying? It's permission. Men need to cry. It's good. Thank you so much. And thank you guys for listening. Bye. Bye.

Thanks for listening to shenanigans with Sheena Shea. Download new episodes every week on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Looking fine. And I got my girls with me. With the boys at the table getting tips. You get your podcasts.