SERIALously - 102: Ruby Franke Admits To DISTURBING Abuse & Torture Ft. Special Guest Hidden True Crime

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

Ruby Franke has plead guilty to 4 counts of second degree felony child abuse. By far, the most disturbing part of all of this, were the disturbing details of what exactly her children were subjected to over the course of a few months by her and Jodi. Special Guests from Hidden True Crime, Dr. John and Lauren Matthias join me to break it all down.  Hidden True Crime - Lauren & John Matthias  Subscribe on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@HiddenTrueCrime  Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast/id1521619380 Twitter: https://twitter.com/HiddenTrueCrime  Facebook: www.facebook.com/hiddentruecrime Follow the SERIALously on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serialouslypod/   Shop the Merch: www.shop10tolife.com  Follow the podcast on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@serialouslypodcast    Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/annieelise   All Social Media Links: https://www.flowcode.com/page/annieelise_   SERIALously FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/SERIALouslyAnnieElise/   About Me: https://annieelise.com/   For Business Inquiries: [e-mail]  Previous 8 Passengers Podcast Episodes: 8 Passengers | Ruby Franke: “Cult” Mommy Vlogger Exposed Pod: https://pod.fo/e/1eccdc  YouTube: https://youtu.be/l4BKYgMmp1U?si=vuQEjsr5LMQI7_DP  8 Passengers Update: Ruby Franke's INSANE Claims in Court  Pod: https://pod.fo/e/1f03c2    YouTube: https://youtu.be/fyKPAWD7O3w?si=i6cha2NRzdTkZHoN  Exposing the Dark Past of Jodi Hildebrandt & Ruby Franke of 8 Passengers Pod: https://pod.fo/e/1f3de6   YouTube: https://youtu.be/bsnyqwHb8qU?si=YATelICgb0KP8n5O Shocking New Details & Bodycam Footage: YouTuber Ruby Franke of '8 Passengers' Pod: https://pod.fo/e/1ff0a9 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhVsIllVu4E  LDS & Cult Connections: Pod:https://pod.fo/e/1f83f1  YouTube: https://youtu.be/YK69HenVLQ8?si=9ze146G3KaOWsF2P 

Hey true crime besties, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back, everybody. It is me, Annie, your true crime bestie. We've got so much to talk about today. Oh my God, has this week been a doozy in the true crime world. So what I'm going to do, today's episode is going to be a little bit different. I'm going to go over all of the headlines with you and kind of what's going on right now. But there's a big update that so many of you guys I know are curious about and have been asking me about. And that is what the hell is going on with Ruby Frankie's plea deal. If you aren't familiar with Ruby Frankie and the eight passengers situation, I'm going to catch you up. But I've also done so many deep dives that you can

go listen to those too um I'll put them in the show notes below but basically she's like the youtuber family she was arrested a few months ago for child abuse after her son escaped through her like co-conspirators a window of her house she he had been bound by the ankles and the wrists with duct tape I mean it's a freaking horrific story and everybody was kind of wondering what was going to happen in her hearing this week and she copped to it and she struck a deal and the details that we learned in this plea deal are absolutely fucking enraging enraging so not only am I going to go over what all of that is and what happened, but we have a very special guest who is going to be weighing in on this with us, who knows all the things. I mean, we've got a lot to talk about.

So let me get right into the headlines for this week. We're starting with a mom who helps her pedophile son escape prison. And she did this by giving him a disguise and then driving the getaway car. So a sex offender serving a life sentence in Texas who escaped from prison allegedly had the help of his mom, and he was caught this week, thank God. But it's 39-year-old Robert Yancey. He was serving a life sentence for the continuous aggravated assault of a seven-year-old child in Victoria County. Now, apparently, his mom helped him escape by giving him a black hat and a sweater during one of her visits. And then somehow, this mega creep pedophile managed to get an ID that helped him

pass through security on the way out with his mom. And somehow, the guards just didn't notice, through security on the way out with his mom. And somehow the guards just didn't notice, which tell me how that's even possible. But get this, the mom is a former corrections officer who also has insider knowledge of the jail systems in Texas. And authorities believe that that ultimately helped her pull off this escape. But it's not even like, oh, they're escaping through the HVAC vents or at this point, or you're putting a shiv in a cake and they're using that to like pick the lock. He just walked out. So two things here. I get loving your kids, but continued aggravated assault of a seven-year-old child and you think that your son deserves to get out of jail?

I mean, are you kidding me? Also, why are so many inmates escaping jail lately? I thought it was supposed to be hard. Like, between the, like, crab crawl that we saw where the guy, like, scaled the building, then we saw Caitlin Armstrong and her wacky ass running after the doctor's appointment and, like, jumping the fence. I mean, what is going on? It's supposed to be jail and prison for a reason, right? Like, lock up. They say lock up, but how are these people getting out? It's beyond me. So luckily, this asshole creep was reapprehended. Thank God. Shifting gears and going kind of across the country to New Jersey,

there is a seriously disturbed man in Jersey. This New Jersey man allegedly decapitated his mother and then was later found naked, lying on top of her headless body. You heard that right. He decapitated his mom, then got naked, then started laying on her headless body and through her head chucked it into the apartment hallway. What? What the fuck? Like, is that what you're thinking? Because that's what I'm thinking. So according to the probable cause, the man, Jeffrey Sergent, called 911 to say that he was bipolar and that he had just killed his mother. Then when the cops arrived, they found him naked, covered in blood, laying on top of his mom's headless body. As he was handcuffed, he allegedly screamed that he killed his mother

and that he was sorry. He then started singing the song, Jesus Loves Me. So police took him to a mental health facility because obviously, and he's now been charged with murder and two weapons charges were also added on that, which put yourself in those cops shoes really quick.

Like I know that they've probably seen a in those cops' shoes really quick. Like, I know that they've probably seen a lot of grotesque stuff in their day, but imagine walking to an apartment building, knowing that somebody had called, they had confessed to a murder, seeing a decapitated body for starters, but then the naked perpetrator, who happens to be the victim's son, just laying on top of them. I mean, I feel like that's something that you would have PTSD from and that would stick with you. That's ultimately disturbing. So kind of ping-ponging, I guess, and I could have done this in a different order, so I apologize, but let's ping-pong and go back to Texas for a minute. Different case,

but same state. So a 31-year-old man named Nestor Flores in Texas was arrested after police received a report of a driver who was parked at a Jack in the Box and was slumped over the steering wheel. Police said that Nestor smelled like a brewery, that's a direct quote, and when they looked inside his car, they noticed, get this, it wasn't the tacos from Jack in the Box, there was a dead body in the passenger seat. During an interview, Nestor told police that he thought he struck an animal in Dallas. Then he just continued to drive 37 miles with a dead body in his car, before pulling over at the Jack in the Box.

When he got there, he went inside, he was covered in blood, and he was asking for a phone charger. Police said that he had extensive damage to the front end of his car and his hood and his windshield, and police believed that Nestor accidentally hit a pedestrian, and they believed that the impact was so severe that the pedestrian was actually thrown inside the vehicle and then came to rest on the passenger seat. The victim was found upside down in the front passenger seat area with the head facing toward the ground. So let's kind of talk about that and unpack that. Does that mean that he hit a pedestrian so hard that they went through the windshield, head down, and then this loser driver was so drunk that he thought he hit an animal and then drove 37 miles like this with

a person in his car? I mean, could you imagine driving down the highway and seeing this? So police haven't identified the pedestrian yet, but Dallas police said that they found some human remains at the crash scene that might possibly match the victim's body that was recovered from the car, and investigators are working to identify the victim. It's been reported by some outlets that it may have been a homeless person, which it's just awful. The driver is in jail on a pending charge of intoxicated manslaughter, and he has a previous conviction of driving while intoxicated from back in 2021. So apparently this guy not only didn't learn his lesson, but now, I mean, thank goodness that he's going to be pulled off the road and in jail

because he's clearly a danger to society. Now let's talk about when powerful people do really gross things. Because an NBA G League player and a woman lured a murder victim using a kinky sex trap. Chance Kamashi, a 27-year-old NBA G League player, was arrested for his alleged role in the murder of a woman earlier this month. Las Vegas police said that through a series of interviews, they learned that Chance and his 19-year-old ex-girlfriend, Sakari, played a role in the disappearance of 23-year-old Morena Rogers, and apparently they executed a murder plot together. Chance and Sakari were initially arrested on kidnapping charges, but then later charged with murder after Chance confessed to police that Morena was strangled before they buried her body

in a Nevada desert. Chance said that he and Sakari previously dated more than a year ago, and then they broke up, but they remained friendly. So Sakari met up with Chance and told him that she was having problems with Morena. Sakari and Morena apparently both worked as prostitutes in the Vegas area, and they were having an argument about a Rolex watch. Maybe somebody, maybe one of their johns, and they stole the watch from him? I don't know. But in any event, Sakari claimed that Morena threatened to smoke Sakari if she didn't give her the watch, which means kill.

So because of all of this, Chance and Sakari began their plot to kill her. So after failing to hire a hitman for three grand, they discussed several different ways to commit the murder, which included poisoning, strangulation, and a gun. In text messages, Chance allegedly said, I can snap her neck or just strangle the bitch. If you get a nice little thick piece of rope or some sturdy, I can do it from the back seat, like how the killers do it in the movies. Eventually, Chance and Sakari came up with the plan, which was going to be him telling Morena that he was into kinky sex and that he wanted to tie her and Sakari up in the car. So, Morena agreed,

believing that she was going to be earning $1,000 for this. So, they got Morena into the car, and then after picking up a bottle of booze from the liquor store at a nearby, like, little liquor joint, they made it seem like they'd have sex with her inside the car. So, both girls got undressed, and Sakari started straddling Mirena. Then she put her wrists together and zip-tied them. Next, Chance put an HDMI cord around Mirena's neck and began choking her. And then he stopped after about 10 seconds because he heard her struggling to breathe. So that is when Sakari apparently jumped in to finish the job. Once realizing, though, that she was dead after checking her pulse and seeing fluid come out of her mouth, they drove around and dumped

Marina's body on the side of the road in the desert and then covered it with rocks. Chance also confessed to police that he used a towel to pick up the rocks to avoid getting his DNA on them. After that, they smashed Marina's phone and drove back to the team hotel. The NBA G League is the NBA Minor League, and Chance was arrested while he was practicing for the Stockton Kings, the NBA G League affiliate of the Sacramento Kings. After confessing, Chance pointed to the location of where her body was on a map, and police were able to recover her remains. As a part of his confession, Chance claims that he was only acting under the direction of

Sakari. Which, under the direction of her or not, it does not make it a good excuse or any excuse, and I always, it'll never cease to amaze me why people who seemingly have everything going for them in life and could, in this case, go to the NBA potentially, would risk losing all of that. For what? To squash a squabble that your ex-sex worker girlfriend had with her other sex worker friend? Make it make sense. Like, you have so much to lose. Why on earth would you do this? It is so senseless. Like, the most senseless of the senseless. I don't understand.

Speaking of things I don't understand, let's talk. That dovetails into Ruby Frankie, guys. This bitch. Okay, let's talk. So, Ruby Frankie has officially pled guilty to four counts of second-degree felony child abuse. Earlier this week, the judge accepted a plea deal in which Ruby not only admitted her guilt, but also understood that she would be going to prison. She also, as a part of this deal, has to testify against Jodi Hildebrandt.

Now, each count has a maximum penalty of 15 years and each count will be served consecutively. So she's going to be sentenced on February 20th. Now the most disturbing part of all of this were the disturbing details of what exactly her children were subjected to over the course of a few months, all by her and her cult leader bestie Jodi. And after we get through that, after I go through these details that were released, special guest Lauren Mathias and Dr. John from Hidden True Crime, they're going to be joining me and we're going to give our thoughts on all of this. So according to court documents, RF, and they use initials because these kids are minors, guys, so this is her son, RF, who was 12 at the time. RF was forced to do physical tasks for hours and days at a time.

This included wall sits, carrying boxes full of books up and down stairs, and working outside. Eventually, RF was forced to do outside labor without shoes and in the summer heat. He was to stand in the direct sunlight for several days. He was forced to remain outside at all hours of the day and night for extended periods of time. These actions resulted in repeated and serious sunburns with blisters and sloughing skin. R.F. was denied water for several of the days that he was required to remain in the summer heat too, and then he was punished when he secretly, quote, secretly consumed water. He was denied sufficient food, and when given food, he was given very plain meals such as rice and chicken,

while others in the house ate regular and more flavorful meals. He was isolated from other people and denied all forms of entertainment, including books, notebooks, and electronics. And it gets fucking worse. After he attempted to run away the first time in July, his hands and feet were regularly bound. The bindings included being tied to his mother Ruby and also to weights. Now many times the bindings included using two sets of handcuffs, one on his wrists and one on his ankles. At times he would be lying on his stomach and ropes were used to tie the two sets of

handcuffs together so that his arms and lower legs were lifted off the ground, which from my understanding, it means that he was essentially hogtied with handcuffs. It is absolutely barbaric and disgusting. The bindings also caused injuries to his wrists and his ankles where the handcuffs had cut through the skin and actually damaged the muscle tissue. These injuries were treated with homeopathic remedies and then covered with duct tape. Then the bindings were placed on top of the duct tape. Abuse that was committed by Ruby herself against her son included kicking him while she was wearing boots, holding his head underwater, and cutting off oxygen by placing her hands over his mouth and nose. The abuse began in May, and it escalated throughout the summer months.

Additionally, Ruby and Jodi regularly sought to indoctrinate RF and convinced him that he was evil and possessed, and also that he needed to willingly be obedient to avoid punishments. And they tried to convince him that the punishments were necessary to repent. He was also told that everything that was being done to him were acts of love. I mean sick, sick, sick. Now for her younger child, who is going by the initials in this document, EF, in addition to also being bound and tied, she was subjected to the same treatment as her brother with the tasks, the water, being outside, and not getting any food. She was also repeatedly told that she was evil and possessed, and that the punishments were necessary for her to be obedient and to repent. And these things were being done

to her all in order to help her, again, according to Ruby and Jodi. EF was convinced, too, that she was evil, and that she needed to go through these things in order for her to repent. It's heartbreaking. She was forced to work outside in the heat barefoot, and she was also forced to run barefoot on dirt roads for extended periods of time. Her feet were repeatedly injured, and she was repeatedly sunburned. When examined on August 30th when the arrests first happened, these wounds were apparent by scabs, blisters, and sloughing skin. It is so cruel, so disgusting, and guilty or not,

whether she's accepting responsibility or not, it is inexcusable. It is absolutely barbaric. So what I want to do to get an expert to weigh in on all of this is have Lauren from Hidden True Crime join me. She's been a guest on this podcast several times, and we are very big fans over here of her and her husband, Dr. John. So all of the links to everything about Lauren and her YouTube channel and Dr. John and their podcast will be in the show notes below, so definitely go and check them out. Thank you will be in the show notes below. So definitely go and check them out. Thank you so much for joining me, Lauren. I am so happy to have you. I can't

wait to get your insight into a lot of this because I know so many of us, when we saw this document come out and saw the hearing take place, our jaw was just on the absolute floor. I mean, the details that came out, we knew it was bad, but I don't think any of us expected it to be this graphic and this heartbreaking. So I'm really excited to have you joining, and I appreciate you taking the time to jump on here so last minute. But I want to start with this. The details of what truly went on in that house were honestly barbaric and quite frankly horrifying. So I want to know, how shocked were you to read what exactly went on? Or did you expect that the facts of this case would be this

horrific? It was beyond horrifying what we read in the documents. No, it was much worse than I ever expected. I didn't think it could get worse than what we heard in the 911 call with a grown man weeping when he saw RF, knowing the things in the probable cause were upsetting enough to then read what these two children went through. The torture that they experienced and went through with a therapist and their own mother, it was beyond comprehension. their own mother. It was beyond comprehension. My heart breaks for these children and I am so grateful that they're alive and I hope that they'll be able to get the help that they need to move forward in life. Thank you so much for explaining. I think, I mean, speaking for myself, I know I was definitely taken aback. So it's just awful when you actually hear these grotesque details. Now, what did you think of Ruby's quote when she was like, with deep sorrow and regret for my family and my children's speech,

how she kind of teed that up before entering her plea, as well as when the judge asked her if she read all of the document and she replied, every word. It was just so matter of fact to me. But what did you think of it? You know, when she said that, I actually thought she looked contrite. I actually thought that she I thought she actually showed a emotional response there that she did seem to truly plead guilty to these charges. When she said that she read every word, we know what was in those documents.

Now they, again, it showed this horrendous, horrendous abuse. And she's saying that she read every word of it, that she was pleading guilty. I felt for her to add that little moment of deep regret was, was an emotional moment that she was saying, truly, I have remorse. But, you know, Dr. John has some other thoughts. I think any expression of remorse from Ruby Frankie is going to be somewhat suspect, given the fact that this is someone who acted all the time. This was someone who prioritized her YouTube channel to make money. This is someone who treated her children like commodities and props to monetize her channel. So in that sense, I think this is someone who's very much acting all the time. She's invested in presenting a facade. So I think that her expressions of remorse

are always going to be a little suspicious or suspect, and they're going to, in some ways, reflect her skills as an actor and someone who knows how to present this facade of the perfect family. We know that lurking beneath the surface of that facade is always these darker motives and behaviors and abusive behaviors. So to me, I'm not as convinced that her expression is remorseful. To add to Dr. John, I also want to point out that it is true that she's speaking to the judge that holds her future in his hands, that she'll be sentenced on February 20th, and it will be the judge's decision how much time she serves. So again, she does have reason to show deep remorse in front of this judge if he is making a decision about her life. Which is to say that she has reasons to act or continue to act in a certain way. So again, whether this is true remorse

would be really hard to determine at this point. I really appreciate your insight in all of that because that's definitely something that had been lingering in my mind, but I appreciate hearing your point of view. Now, I saw one of your videos recently and you've been to Jodi's street and you've seen her home. So can you describe the area and what that would have meant for RF and EF, being on the outside of that in the summer heat and working and being barefoot, all of the components that go into it? home is in Ivins, Utah. This is Southern Utah. This is the desert. This is near Death Valley,

near Las Vegas. This is dry heat where the majority of days in the summer are triple digits. In addition, there are no trees anywhere. I've been to the subdivision and in front of Jodi Hildebrandt's house. I went there to report and there is not a single tree. This is cacti, sagebrush, and sun. I think there might be a few juniper trees around in that area, but they're not going to be enough to really provide any shade. So how would this have impacted them? It would have been like torture to have been outside all day. The sun is very intense. It would have been horrendous. It would have been torturous. It would have been a situation where heat stroke was a real possibility

if some type of heat stroke did not occur. I'd be surprised. The average July temperature in St. George, Utah, which is right next to Ivins, Utah, is 107 degrees. That's average in July. This year, high temperatures in St. George crossed the 100 degree mark every single day in July. For 19 consecutive days, July 12th through July 30th, the temperature reached at least 105 degrees. And these were the dates where they said May through July that the children were outside. RF did not escape until August. So both of these children were in 105 degree plus heat without trees, without sunscreen in the desert. I mean, it truly is appalling thinking through

what those children went through. So you've heard the clip from the Connections podcast that was back in November of 2022 of Ruby saying, you cannot put welts on your child's leg and lovingly apply gauze and expect healing. You might help the scars go away, but the spirit has absorbed the hatred and the venom, which I'm going to play that clip again really quick for everybody to hear here so they can hear it in Ruby's voice. You cannot. You cannot put welts on your child's legs and then lovingly apply gauze and expect healing. Now, you might help the scars go away, but the spirit has absorbed the hatred and the venom. So how the hell do you go from that to then six months later, essentially hog-tying your child with handcuffs

and severely injuring the child in the process? The worst part about this is that it seems that Ruby is saying she knows that even if the physical scar goes away, the emotional scar will stay there forever. She says you might help the scars go away, but the emotional scars will be absorbed forever, which is true. And so it actually makes it even worse that they did this months later, in my opinion. But what do you think, Dr. John? I think, number one, this shows a complete lack of self-awareness, but putting that aside, to me, this is about punishment and it's about punishing sin. And we know from the way that Jodi treated her niece, Jesse, that a big part of her agenda with Jesse was to try to wash away sin

through extreme punishment. And so I think there's a part of Ruby here that actually relishes this punishment and understands the impact of the scars on the children's psychological well-being and doesn't seem to care very much or actually in some ways is promoting the idea of attempting to create these lasting psychological wounds to punish this sin that she perceives to be present. I think you just like nail everything you just said nailed everything completely and was a way to really convey what I know so many of us are thinking. So this is obviously one of the most horrific cases of child abuse as far as injuries that

I've covered in a very long time. Most of the time it's neglect or types of mental punishment, locking a child inside. But her actions were extreme torture, almost war crimes. I mean, honestly. So what has John been thinking about all of this? And what do you think? I mean, I have to agree with you, Annie. That's what I've been trying to process myself. And I don't even know how to process it. I wish I had answers. I can't comprehend that they did this to these little children and scarred them for life. And I don't know what to think. I really don't. It's been shocking to think that a mother and a therapist did this to little children and scarred them for life.

Truly, I hope that these children will be okay and be able to find a meaningful life ahead of them. I don't know what to think. Luckily, we have Dr. John here next to me. I think war crimes is a good analogy in the sense that during a war, in order to perpetrate horrendous crimes against children, you have to dehumanize children.

You have to dehumanize the enemy. And that's how I think Ruby Frankie is able to perpetrate such horrendous crimes against her kids. She's dehumanized them. And she has a lot of experience doing that because in her previous YouTube channel and shows, she often treated her kids like props. They were like commodities that were a part of her strategy to ring the cash register and to make money. And I think her big part of her channel was about her and making money and promoting herself and her own self-image. And so

her kids were secondary. Her kids were treated like objects, and they were commodities on the way to a fortune that she made. And I think in that sense, over time, she was able to dehumanize her kids as much as the enemy will dehumanize children during wartime. I think we also see in the document how they dehumanized by saying that they were evil and possessed. That's also a dehumanizing element. When someone's possessed or someone's evil, then they're not who they're supposed to be. They're not human. We saw the

exact same thing with the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case. The children were zombies that they were also possessed. Right. And so that would be the Jodi Hildebrandt influence. I think when you bring those two elements together, the evil spirit part with the financial commodity, seeing her children as props to make money, I think that can be a potent combination. And it's easy. I think it would be easy to get from those two prongs of dehumanization to child abuse. So in other words, Ruby was already using her children as props through this YouTube channel. And then when you add the Jody influence,

it's really interesting because it is like Chad and Lori. So Lori, there was some using Tylee as a prop, you know, possibly, and then Chad comes along and makes things worse. Right. I think it's the combination.

You're creating the perfect storm of dehumanizing your kids so that you can abuse them severely. I think it'd be interesting to know what the abuse looked like prior to Jodi to compare and whether the abuse escalated over time, which I believe it probably did. Ruby took small steps towards one thing she had her kids do was she would, they would perform certain stunts or events to create conflict in the family so that people, more people would watch her channel. So she was actually staging a lot of events and many of those events were involved injuries to her kids. And she was doing that to get more views, to make more money. And so you can see this process of dehumanization in her YouTube channel prior to Jodi even. I appreciate you sharing that with us because Dr. John's insights, I mean, both of yours, of course, but I always am intrigued to hear what Dr. John thinks about all of this too, because he has such an extensive professional background in evaluating people like this and seeing this firsthand.

So I appreciate you sharing that with us. Now, do you think it's possible that other people who have been involved with Jodi in the past, particularly her involvement within the LDS community, have also gone to these lengths with their children? Or do you think that this is something that is probably more isolated? I think you actually gave a good segue for that, that it was over time things got worse as she, as Ruby was able to trust her more and more and Jodi was able to realize that she could do, you know, increase the abuse and increase the abuse. I have talked, well, John and I have both talked to people that were in connections and I've talked to family members of people whose family members were in connections. And I have

heard that some people started some, some intense discipline with their children. But in one person's opinion, it wasn't abusive. It just became really strict, extreme parenting. And these were parents that were in connection. But I think we all need to remember what Jodi's niece, Jesse, stated on an interview they did with Mormon Stories and the abuse that Jesse suffered was very familiar to what we are hearing that RF and EF went through. So there is a part of me that wonders what other children suffered this, but what do you think, John? what other children suffered this. But what do you think, John? It's hard to know whether Jodi was seeking this type of extreme behavior from some of her other followers.

I think she was particularly close to Ruby. Obviously, she had a relationship with Ruby. I think she probably, it seems to me, she wanted to rehabilitate Ruby's YouTube channel, maybe to some degree to benefit herself. So I think she would have promoted similar practices with some of their followers, but maybe not quite as extreme. Just because I don't think she probably, I think she probably felt like she could push the envelope more with Ruby than some of her other people.

I mean, I know we've talked about it before with the extremists who have been coming out of the LDS faith the last few years. So we could only hope that this was an isolated incident. But I mean, the truth of the matter is, I feel like we saw it with Lori. We saw it with the Hildebrandt crap now. Like, it seems like something just keeps coming out. So hopefully we're kind of like starting to tail off from all of these LDS extremists. But my gut tells me, unfortunately, that I don't know, that we're only scratching the surface, which is a really scary thought to think about.

Now, do you think that Jodi will end up taking a plea deal? Or do you think that there were more instances of abuse and torture than we know of so far? What do you think is going to happen? What do you think is going to happen in the months to come? You know, I think it could go either way. This is what I think. You know, Jesse, again, in this interview that I mentioned that they did on this Mormon Stories podcast, Jesse believes that their aunt Jodi was diagnosed with several things, including possibly psychopathy. We don't know for a fact if that's true. It hasn't been confirmed. But let's say that that's accurate, that Jodi's been diagnosed with psychopathy. In my opinion, I feel like a lot

of psychopaths don't want to take plea deals. They feel confident that they can manipulate the system and they don't believe they've done anything wrong and they feel superior. So if that's the case, I see Jodi possibly saying, yeah, I'm not going to take a plea deal. But if Jody does realize that there's a lot more that Ruby can tell the court because Ruby is going to testify against Jody and Ruby does have insider information. And if Jody is fearful of what Ruby knows and what she's going to tell the court and what the court is going to hear about Jody, then maybe she might think, yes, I'm going to take a plea deal. Who knows though, if they're even going to offer her one. Right. That's what I was going to say. If the DA looks at the interview with Jesse, which I think the DA has expressed interest in reviewing, they did a while ago,

then the DA may be less likely to give Jody a plea deal in the sense that there could be a lot of abuse out there that Jody's had some responsibility for. So it's not even clear to me that she'll get a deal, but my guess is that the fact that we haven't heard anything about a deal at this point would suggest that she's probably somewhat resistant or reluctant to take a deal. But some of that could just be that the DA doesn't want to give her a deal, hasn't extended an offer to her, and they want to try her. doesn't want to give her a deal, hasn't extended an offer to her, and they want to try her. Right. If they believe that recidivism, that's what your profession is, John, recidivism, assessing risk. If they believe that Jodi is a risk to the community and they want to put her away for life or for a long time, you're right. They might not offer a plea deal. And wouldn't that be part of that process like understanding recidivism rates or do you know what i mean

yeah ironically this is a case that i may very well have had a hand in the evaluation for the court so in fact i probably would have if I wasn't talking about the case publicly. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm the only one in Southern Utah who's licensed to do these types of evaluations, but I had spoken publicly about the case before an evaluation would have been conducted. So I couldn't ethically conduct this evaluation. But the evaluation would assess her risk for future violence or future child abuse. And just based on what we know at this point, you'd have to think that the risk would be high, which would mean that they would probably seek a higher higher penalties or potentially more severe charges against her. This is a question I have for you, then.

What about recidivism rates with Ruby? now ruby ruby faces a long time behind bars she's not necessarily just going to walk when she's sentenced on february 20th she did plead guilty to four counts of aggravated child abuse but what are your thoughts when it comes to recidivism with ruby frankie i think that would all depend upon her relationship, her continued relationship with Jodi and her beliefs and whether she's reevaluated some of her beliefs about child abuse and sinning and possession and that sort of stuff. So it's hard to know at this point. It would really depend on whether she's changed to some degree or reflected on her behaviors and learn from it. But you could argue

that, and we've argued this, that at least some of her behavior was influenced by Jodi to a large degree. So risk would be a function of assessing her relationship with Jodi. That's really interesting. I mean, to me, I definitely do think that there is an aspect of her now that she's been separated from Jodi for several months. Maybe she's actually kind of having a come to Jesus moment and realizing the severity of her actions. But I also don't know that I believe she has deep sorrow and regret to the fullest extent, only because these behaviors have been ongoing for so long and to an extent kind of even were there and were present before Jodi entered the chat, you know? So I don't know. It's going to be really interesting to see how Jodi's trial and hearing and all of that stuff goes.

What do you say then to people who point out that before she met Jodi, she showed bad parenting or possibly emotionally abusive parenting on the 8 Passengers YouTube channel? the eight passengers YouTube channel. How do you, that's what people say. She was clearly abusive before she met Jody. Look at what she did to the children. And they show clips of, you know, saying you can't eat lunch if you don't bring your lunch and I'm taking your bed away and on and on. So how do you explain that? Yeah, that's true. I, as I said earlier, I think there's, she treated her kids like commodities because she was trying to ring the cash register i think she only cared about her youtube channel and monetizing that and views and right so i think in that sense i think during passengers it was more about control trying to keep the kids under, trying to get them to perform in a certain way, trying to get them to act in a certain way.

But yeah, I mean, I guess the question is, during that period of time, was she engaging in the same type of torturous behavior towards her kids as she did later with Jodi? towards her kids as she did later with Jodi. And that's, I think that's how you could determine influence is to see whether her parenting practices became more severe with Jodi. And I mean, it seems like they did, but true there, there were signs of abuse before and she wasn't the perfect parent,

but I think a lot of that was driven by this YouTube channel that was extremely popular and it was all staged. It was all putting those kids on display, like I said, as props to monetize that. So I think that was a problem. I think a lot of the abuse, well, some of the abuse I'm sure stemmed from her views of parenting in general and her upbringing for sure. But you take that and you combine it with this need to monetize her YouTube channel and have her kids appear in a certain way and that creates problems. in the in the plea deal they refer to the severe emotional scars that rf has experienced and ef and that they will experience as a psychologist what are some of the emotional scars that these abused children will possibly face or abused children in general?

Post-traumatic stress disorder might be one. Depression could be another. There's a whole range of mental health issues that could stem from what occurred here. Some type of trauma, obviously, that would be consistent with PTSD, anxiety. They could have nightmares. Again, PTSD. It's hard to know everybody's response. Victims of trauma respond differently. But I wouldn't be surprised to see some potential future history of mental health problems around depression and trauma. problems around depression and trauma. Annie, we want to thank you for being an advocate for children and covering these child abuse cases so sensitively and always having children and victims at the forefront. Yeah, thank you, Annie, for being so thoughtful with these cases and for

letting us have a say on some of this. And we appreciate your coverage, your in-depth coverage of such a sensitive topic. Wow, thank you both so much. I mean, coming from you, that is like the most mega huge compliment I could ever receive. And thank you again so much for coming on because every time I talk with you both,

I learn so much more about every single topic. So honestly, thank you so much for joining. All right, guys, that is going to wrap up this week's episode. Let me know what you think in the Q&A section, in the review section. I mean, my mind just continues to be blown. But other than that, I hope you all have an amazing holiday with your family. You're able to relax. You're able to have a little moment of zen and peace. And I will be talking with you guys again very, very soon. All right, guys. Talk soon. Stay safe. I'm signing off.