SERIALously - 14: Bryan Kohberger & Chad Daybell Feat. Hidden True Crime

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

Reviewing the hidden motives behind Idaho’s unimaginable crimes with special guests John and Lauren Matthias. Dr. John is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with twenty-five years of experience in both clinical and forensic work, and Lauren is a former investigative journalist. They have an amazing channel and podcast together called Hidden True Crime where they dive deep into the psyche of these criminals as we all try to understand their motives and wrap our minds around how they could commit such horrific crimes. Dr. John and Lauren have also been featured in the Netflix docuseries Sins of Our Mother, as well as the recent Dateline episodes about Lori Vallow’s Trial and The King Road Killings. Back Story: Bryan Kohberger was recently arraigned for his 5 felony charges, four counts of first-degree murder, and one count of burglary in the deaths of Xana, Ethan, Maddie, and Kaylee that happened at the University of Idaho in November. Since his arrest several months ago, there have been multiple dateline episodes and other documentaries by major media outlets have since been released offering it’s viewers a look at what happened, but also information about Bryan’s alleged involvement, rumors, and information from anonymous sources. There also has been some new information that has come to light.  Lori Vallow was also recently convicted on her murder charges for the deaths of children. With both of these insane cases both happening in Idaho, it really got me thinking and I wanted to take a closer look into the mind of these criminals/alleged criminals in Bryan’s case from a psychological perspective. Your True Crime BFF, Annie Elise xx For Business Inquiries: [e-mail] About Me: https://annieelise.com/ Follow me on Social: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@annieelise Official SERIALously Facebook Page:https://www.facebook.com/SerialouslyAnnieElise Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_annieelise Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@_annieelise  Twitter: https://twitter.com/_10toLIFE Special Guests: Dr. John Matthias & Lauren Matthias Hidden True Crime Social Links: Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast/id1521619380 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/hiddenTrueCrime https://twitter.com/hiddenTrueCrime  Facebook: https://Facebook.com/hiddenTrueCrime

buckle up and crank up that volume this is serialously with annie elise hey everybody welcome back to a brand new episode of serialously it's me annie elise your true crime bff here to break down some crazy true crime cases that we have going on. So welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly. This one is a little bit of a bonus episode because it's outside of the normal Monday release schedule, but I knew I just had to jump on here and talk with you guys about this. And I have some amazing guests on too, which I am so excited about. It has been a very busy week in the true crime world. Some good news, some bad news, but also, of course, as always, a lot of confusing news. There are two cases specifically that I wanted

to jump on here and talk to you about today. The first one being that of Brian Koberger. Brian Koberger, as a reminder, is the accused murderer of the four slain students from the University of Idaho and that brutal murder that took place back in November of 2022. There has been some new information released about his parents, some grand juries, some things that we need to talk about quite honestly. In addition to that, I really wanted to talk about Lori again, Lori Vallow, because I think that she is still so fascinating as far as the psychological aspect of it. Knowing what was going on inside of her mind, the brainwashing that potentially

happened, and really getting into the nooks and crannies, so to speak, of the corners of her brain. Now, I am no expert, clearly, but I figured what better way to get inside Lori's mind than to actually talk to some experts. We are going to be discussing Brian Koberger's criminal profile today and some changes in what's going on with Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell behind the scenes. Did his loyalty shift? Is his allegiance to Lori now breaking and is he going to throw her skanky ass hard under the bus? We're going to talk about all of it. Brian Koberger was recently arraigned for his five felony charges, four counts of first degree murder and one count of burglary, all in the deaths of Zanna, Ethan, Maddie, and Kaylee, which happened at the University of Idaho right outside of campus in their home on King Road back in November of 2022.

He appeared in court with his attorney, Ann Taylor, where the judge read him his rights, his charges, and penalties. This was the first time that we have seen Brian Koberger back in the courtroom in months. I want to make it clear that Brian is innocent until proven guilty, and everything in this video is alleged. Since his arrest several months ago, there have been multiple Dateline episodes and other documentaries by major media outlets have also since been released, all offering its viewers a look at what happened, but also information about Brian's alleged involvement, rumors, and information from anonymous sources. There has also been some new information that has come to light this week. Apparently, both Brian's parents were required to testify in front of a grand jury

in Pennsylvania where he was arrested and where he had lived prior to his move to Washington. They were required to testify in front of this grand jury in an investigative effort regarding a missing woman from that area who went missing in May of 2022 shortly before Brian moved to Washington. So of course this had everybody buzzing when we heard this because it had been rumored that his parents tried to actually block the subpoenas that were requiring them to come and testify which felt a little uncomfortable but again we don't know the inner workings of all of that. But it also got people talking because, of course, if the possibility of him being involved in another crime and this woman's remains have been discovered, she was in fact killed,

does that mean that Brian is in fact a serial killer from previous deaths, not only the four murders in Idaho, assuming that he in fact was the murderer. It also begs the question, were the IDs that were found during the search inside the glove, inside the box, inside the house, not the students' IDs, but that of other victims of his potentially? And something with that that I thought was interesting is I remember when we first heard that IDs were found found of course the automatic assumption for many of us was it must have been the Idaho students but I remember and I believe I said this in the video too that my inclination with that was the murder of those four students

was carried out so quickly so fast that I couldn't imagine him having the time to rifle through their belongings to find the IDs to then take with him as a trophy, especially since they had already been back in the house, most likely didn't have their handbag near them, probably were in pajamas, I would assume, I don't know. But I felt like, okay, to commit four murders and be in and out in whatever it was, 14 minutes, and to go through their things to get their IDs feels like a stretch, maybe could happen, but it felt a little like something wasn't really quite connecting the dots weren't all there for me but now hearing this and

some do say he has a solid alibi so i want to be clear about that it hasn't been proven that he does but a lot of people are saying that a source has come forward and that he does have an alibi for when this woman went missing but if he is involved in any other crimes prior to the four Idaho victims, could those ID cards belong to those other victims? And if so, because it was written on that warrant as ID cards being plural, is there more than one card? Could there be more than one victim? And were they trophies? We don't know, but we're going to talk about a lot of that. So just hang tight. Really quickly, I want to shift gears over to Lori Vallow. Lori Vallow was also recently convicted on her murder charges for the deaths of her children.

Now, with both of these insane cases, both happening in Idaho, it really got me thinking, and I wanted to take a closer look into the mind of these criminals, or alleged criminals in Brian Koberger's case, and I wanted to get a look inside their minds from a psychological perspective. So I thought, who better to join me than Dr. John Mathias, a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 25 years experience in both clinical and forensic work, and former investigative journalist Lauren Mathias, who, if you haven't guessed by now with the matching last names they are husband and wife. They also have an amazing YouTube channel and a podcast called Hidden True Crime and if you

haven't already subscribed to them you need to. They have an amazing community with their hidden gems and I can't say enough of how much I personally enjoy their content from their well-informed and thought-provoking perspective. It is the absolute best chef's kiss. They have the Netflix docuseries Sins of Our Mother, which is of course about Lori Vallow, as well as the recent dateline about Lori Vallow's trial. So I am so excited to have them here today to give us an inside look inside the minds of these two alleged, one convicted criminals and see if we can dig a little bit deeper and understand things a little bit more and try to get in the minds of Brian and Lori and wrap our minds around how they could possibly do the things that they were accused of.

Well, Lori, we know she did. She was convicted. So here we go. I am so excited to bring on John and Lauren. Lauren and Dr. John, thank you guys so much for joining me today. I am so excited to have you here and just pick your brains and get all of the answers from you. So before we get into everything, can you just tell the viewers, the listeners, a little bit about your channel, your backgrounds, and your primary focus when you're choosing to cover the cases that you do? Yes, Annie, first off, thank you so much for having us. We're so honored to be here. Our channel started as a family channel. It still is a family channel. Dr. John, who I call him when we're on the show, sometimes now it slips into real life. He's actually my husband,

my real life husband. We're married. I was a TV reporter for 10 years he is a forensic and clinical my real life husband that I I call him Dr. John only on our show but people like do you call him that at home I'm like I didn't used to but it's starting to like flip into sometimes now um and uh he is a forensic clinical psychologist. I'll let him explain his background a little bit more. But it was the pandemic, I had just quit work to be home with our son, who was a year old at the time, right before the pandemic. And we always talk true crime, both of our, I would cover it with my career, he assesses and evaluates criminals for a living. it. With my career, he assesses and evaluates criminals for a living. And so when the pandemic happened and all the prisons and jails closed, we thought, oh, now what? Now that we were both

out of work. And so we just did what we always did. And we started recording our regular conversations in our living room and around our dinner table and Hidden True Crime was born. And now here we are today. So that's a bit of that of our... I love that. Yeah. Thank you. We're a YouTube channel and a podcast. Started as a podcast. Now we're big into the YouTube scene because of all of our hidden gems, our listeners who said, YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. So here we are today. Great. And Dr. John, can you give us a little bit of a rundown of your experience and professional history? So I've been a clinical and forensic psychologist now for over 25 years. And my main job is to go into jails and prisons and assess risk. So I meet with either violent or sexual offenders and quite often I will determine their risk level to see if they can be placed in the community or how they should be dealt with in terms of sentencing or future risk to recidivate. assessing risk but other than that i also do psychological assessments for

criminals that are in prison in jails i do assessments for defense attorneys prosecutors da's i do consultation for cases that are going to trial that that want to know about strategies for that want to know about strategies for various legal matters that pertain to mental health issues. I've also done a lot of clinical work. I've worked with a lot of victims of abuse and trauma and I'm very familiar with, so I'm very familiar with both sides, with the offender side and the victim side as well, and the impact of trauma on mental health. So that's been my career so far. In a nutshell, I would imagine that that must be an incredible amount of pressure when it comes to making the assessment when somebody is due to be released or what their sentencing should be. I can't imagine the kind of pressure that would come with that. Has that ever been a challenge for you or weighed heavily on you? Or have you ever had a specific challenge that you can cite?

Yeah. Thank you for acknowledging that. It is very stressful. And so I think for probably the first 10 years that I was doing it, I think every evaluation I did was really concerning to me in terms of getting it right and trying to be as meticulous as possible about risk and making decisions that in some cases would send people away for life. So in Nevada, for example, if I came back with high risk for certain offenders by statute, they have to serve the rest of their lives in prison. So in some cases, so not all cases, some of that's negotiable. But so I'm making decisions that are life and death, literally. And, you know, that's not something I signed up for when I became a psychologist.

So so I think, yeah,, yeah, I take it very seriously and it is stressful. It has been stressful. I think after a while you adapt and you get used to it and I think you become, at least with me, I became more comfortable with my knowledge and with these assessments, even though obviously I dealt with these issues in grad school. I think

when you get in the real world and you're seeing real people being sentenced, it becomes a different phenomenon. So yes, it can be stressful. Lauren and I joke that every four or five years I revisit the field and whether I should be doing something else just because it is, there can be a lot of pressure and the decisions have really dire consequences in some cases. So I guess the flip side of that is that, you know, sometimes I'll joke with my neighbors that I'm the guy that keeps them safe, even though they have no idea I'm doing that. Well, no, that's such a great point. And I was just going to say, on a personal level, thank you, because I feel like it is people like you in those positions where you have that control,

that power, and that trust put in you to where it is, who keeps us safe and who puts a reoffender back on the street or who makes sure that they remain locked up. So it's one of the most important jobs and probably the one that doesn't get enough credit, to be quite honest, because it maybe it's not in the limelight as some of these other positions. I don't know. True. Yeah, we're not. We're not. We're not like law enforcement in the sense that law enforcement will be in the media or in the public eye. And, you know, the only reason I am now is because we're doing the podcast. But otherwise, yeah, nobody, I'm just completely anonymous and private. And that's kind of who I am anyway. So this has been different for me.

It's been a little bit of a challenge to kind of be in the public eye a little bit and to be in documentaries and, and YouTube channels and interviews, because it's not something I'm accustomed to, but on the other hand, you know, I feel like I have a lot of experience and hopefully a fair amount of knowledge by now that I can share. So I feel content that I'm able to do that. Absolutely. And I think that just speaking, not only as a creator, but a viewer personally, it's so valuable having experts like both of you

weigh in on things like this and share your knowledge and your professional expertise in the area. Because as a viewer, we usually only hear from news outlets, mainstream media. Other than that, it's the Reddit forums, things like that, but very rarely do you hear directly from experts in the field, people who have had firsthand knowledge of things. So now, especially with this huge surge of this true crime phenomenon where people are so fascinated and interested in it, it's so helpful having

experts like yourselves weigh in on things and convey the facts and evidence and things of that nature in lay terms so that everybody can understand it. And you're not just, you know, reduced to a segment on Good Morning America where you're only hearing maybe a biased point of view. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So many others do.

Although I was, ironically, I was reduced to like a 20 second segment on Good Morning America. Didn't really present my perspective. But yeah, that's funny you mentioned that. Happens to all of us. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know that both of you guys have been covering the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since the very beginning and that whole saga. So what is it that really drew you into that personally first? I'll start with that. You know, again, I mentioned the pandemic is one of these moments where we had to make a decision as a family and just keep doing what we're doing. Go back there. I know that you're a mom, Annie. I'm sure this is something

you went through too, but I had no idea how hard it would be, how much to shift from being a full time career to being a mother. And I was at home with him loving this. I'd always wanted this moment in my life. I always wanted to be a mother, but I had just quit my reporting career to be with him. And I guess you could say you can take the journalist out of the newsroom, but you can't take the journalist out of the girl somewhat. And it was the day that this came down where I opened it up and I saw that there were two missing children and two newlyweds, Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, who were also allegedly missing. And the police were asking for the public's help. And I'm from this area. I spent half of my TV reporting years in Idaho. My mother is from that area. I reported in Rexburg. Additionally, my background,

I was raised in the LDS faith. I am LDS. And so I saw a woman who looked like every one of my friends' mothers growing up almost. And I saw a man whose books were being sold at a place called Deseret Book that I know. And I just thought, what the hell is going on? And I also knew my journalist gut and my journalist heart knew this wasn't going to end well. I could just tell. I was like, this is really bad. What is going on? what is going on and uh it benefits you to live with a forensic psychologist so i went straight to him and asked him that exact question look at these people what is going on and uh that is why we started with the daybell case is because i started i joined joined my first Facebook group. Heaven help you. And I, we all have our first one we join, right? That was mine. My first one that I joined

and I started trying to get every bit of information I could and was being a journalist and just asking him all these questions. And again, that's why we started recording the conversations. It was so organic and so real. I wanted to know what the hell was going on. And I had the person to ask right in front of me. And we just started our podcast right then and there.

Help me understand who Chad Daybell is. Help me understand who Lori Vallow is. And from there, it just sort of really happened organically. Victims started reaching out to us saying, thank you. We want to add to what you know. We want to add to your knowledge. And then soon we were talking to so many people that were involved in this, you know, unknowingly involved, not wanting to be involved. And then it became even more personal to us because we started to become close to some of these victims. And that is the very long story about why we became so invested in this crime. No, I love that, especially how you said that it just happened and started very organically because I feel like in so many situations when it does begin that way, you can

tell that the intentions of course are pure and good, but also there's just like such an emotional investment personally to where it's like, you almost have to see it through. You have to be involved. You want to do it justice. You want to gather all of the facts. And I know Lauren, that you were at the trial every day. John, I would imagine you were getting the recap, the down low at the end of day every day, and then hearing the delayed audio. So a little bit about that. I know you firsthand saw Lori's behavior in the courtroom.

Did you relay all of that to John to be like, hey, this is how she's acting, her facial expressions. What does this mean? Yeah, yes, I did. In fact, before I took off, we had a we were so as I flew off, I have to tell this funny story, too. As I flew off for the trial, this funny story too as I flew off for the trial This is the first trial I really covered as a reporter you go in for days of trials But you actually don't really have the luxury of spending every day all day in a trial because you have a job to do you Have other stories to cover so this is my first full

Trial that I have ever covered and as we as he was dropping me off at the airport for me to fly to Boise And we had a babysitter for our son, we had this little pep talk with each other in the cell phone lot. And we were like, Okay, we're gonna go live every night. We're gonna do we're gonna let people know everything going on. It's so funny to look back up because back on because I think the trial was like six or seven weeks in the end, I think we were able to go live like five times together. like six or seven weeks. And in the end, I think we were able to go live like five times together because it was so busy. But you know, you know, we had high expectations. And I did relay a lot to him late at night at midnight or at 1am when I was finally done working. But it was very overwhelming for me to be there and watch everything play out. Again, it was already

emotional and personal to us because we had gotten to know many of the victims prior to the trial. We'd gotten to love JJ and Tylee. We'd gotten to know Tammy Daybell. And so it was very overwhelming with those personal feelings and being invested. And then to see her and her either lack of emotion or her disinterest or times when she was crying and you were wondering why like what is why is she crying at this moment is she sad is she feeling bad for herself is she feeling empathy heaven forbid i can't imagine she would be feeling empathy uh and so it was uh it was very overwhelming to sit there in front of her each day i would relate to

john everything she was doing i would sit very close to the jurors which was interesting i was closer to the jurors than anyone else and to watch their reactions and their expressions they were a very um they were very invested the jurors and i've heard from other people who have reported on who have reported on other trials that there were no jurors that they had seen, more invested. I would sit next to Brian Enten every day, and he said, this jury is listening. These jurors are watching. There was one juror who would just stare at Lori all day, just stare her down. And it was overwhelming. There were days in the trial. I will never forget the days we saw the autopsy photos. Um, I'll never forget that day. I'll never forget some of the witnesses. It was, um,

I would call John sometimes for, you know, emotional support, you know, how, you know, we, we haven't done content for a couple of weeks since I've been back just cause I needed to regroup. But yes, um, I would relate to John John all of these things. I don't know what he took away from that. Yeah, John, what did you make of Lori's behavior? Because I think one of the largest things that has been talked about is just emotionless. And she had those little moments where she showed emotion and would cry, but like you, I was like, is that genuine or is that fake? Is it be for yourself? So what did you make of her behavior, Dr. Jean? You know, that's something we've talked a lot about on our podcast, but I think there's different hypotheses about her emotions that I would suggest. You know, one is that I've

believed that there's some history of depression. So, you know, the lack of emotions could be something as simple as major depression and just this constant negation of sadness or any affect. And that would be consistent with depression. It could be that a lot of people speculated and asked, is she a psychopath? You know, somebody that's capable of murdering their kids. Does she kind of fall into that category? I don't know for sure. I can't answer that.

We've speculated that she has some psychopathic traits. But one thing that's consistent with psychopathy is a lack of emotion. Psychopaths are notorious for not showing any emotion and being completely callous and unemotional. In fact, that's one of the main traits of children that turn out to be psychopaths later is that they have this callous, unemotional trait. And so I think there could be some of that, although I don't know for sure. I didn't do any evaluations on her. Obviously, I haven't met with her. There was some speculation in one of her competency evaluations that she had schizoaffective disorder, which basically is a version of

schizophrenia. So schizophrenia with a major, with a mood disorder. And in this case, I think major depression, which again would be consistent with depression. So people with schizophrenia, typically that's one of the symptoms of schizophrenia, especially like people that are catatonic. They have no emotion. They're very flat. So I think there's a couple of hypotheses out there about why she's unemotional, and it could maybe fit any of those categories.

So in terms of saying she's definitively one or the other i i don't really know but i mean i guess people can take their pick right but it's it's um i think it could so i think it could be a number of things or it could be a combination of all those do you think that any of those traits or her behavior mannerisms point in the direction of truly in fact being brainwashed and maybe still being under the guise that if she was, in fact, brainwashed, who knows, but like under the guise of like what Chad was selling her so much and her believing that that was still true. Yeah. You know, the idea of brainwashing and the research on brainwashing is controversial. There's a lot of debate about

whether people can be brainwashed. I think with Lori, you know, this is something, again, we talked about on our podcast. I talked about what I called the breaking bad defense, which was essentially, if you saw the Netflix documentary, Sins of Our Mother, the family, the Cox family essentially presented that version of Lori, that she was this wonderful, upstanding mother, you know, periods of driven snow. All she did was love her kids all day and all night. And all of a sudden she meets Chad Daybell and she becomes this horrible, evil person. Right. And I've disputed that version of events, by the way. I think it, you know, I don't think that you break bad like that because you meet one person. I think that the elements of breaking bad or elements of being bad were in place prior to that.

We know, for example, that she was essentially poisoning Charles. She was giving him Xanax and some other medication. They were his medications, but she was giving him, she was giving him those medications unknowingly. And so you can't, that's, that's a felony, by the way. You can't, if, if Lauren decides that, you know, she wants to give me some Xanax, I don't have any, by the way, but if she did, if she's like, you know, I'm tired of him talking all the time. I just need to shut him up. And she sneaks some Xanax in my iced tea or something. That's a crime, you know, because I can't consent to that. And she's given me a controlled substance without my knowledge.

Right. And Lori was doing that. So, you know, which to me, you know, if I'm assessing risk, that's somebody who's poisoning their husband. And we know that she was giving her children medication, sleep medication without their consent. She was, you know, this is someone who I don't think she just broke bad overnight. This is someone who had a lot of bad tendencies or potentially maliciousness prior to meeting Chad. I think there's an element maybe of cruelty and maybe even a sadistic quality to Lori that exists prior to Chad. Do I think that she was brainwashed overnight by Chad Daybell? No, I don't see that. I think there were a lot of elements in place prior to that where she was moving in the direction of extremism and extreme beliefs. There was an interview I did with Lori Daybell's cousin, interviewed her

during the trial. And she explained a moment where they were out with some boys in a jeep all having fun they were they were close to the same age and one of the boys they were with sped up and hit a cat and the cousin was really traumatized by it and wanted to run back and check on the cat and was so overwhelmed and her experience was she looked over and saw lori just laughing you know just laughing and i think that's uh that's explains who lori might have been uh prior to everything that doesn't mean that she would have one day did what she did but I think it explains John's breaking bad theory is there's some underlining, very concerning red flags with her. And that's just one example. It's interesting too, because there have been cases in which I've shared where, and I'm sure

you are familiar with this too, where both people maybe have this kind of deep-rooted evilness in them or callousness, and it doesn't really come to the surface and bubble up until they meet another person who's like-minded and also shares those traits. And then it becomes the perfect storm, the perfect recipe for just dangerous activities, like a lot of these cases when two friends turn against a best friend and kill them and things like that so is it fair to say that it's possible that maybe lori did have some of these characteristics or traits and a bit of evil so to say inside of her and then by meeting chad it magnified it and they almost fueled each other and then it just took off and became something completely different

off and became something completely different. Yeah, I think so. I think Chad definitely, whatever her underlying pathologies were, I think Chad exacerbated those pathologies and he served, he was a catalyst. So I agree that he became a catalyst for whatever that those malicious, He became a catalyst for whatever those malicious, cruel tendencies were. He brought them probably out to a greater degree. And he empowered her, I think. And she did that to him too, by the way. I think that there was very much a sense in which they probably radicalized each other to some degree, if that's the right term. So then with that mentality and kind of thinking through that, do either one of you have any theories as to why Lori didn't speak out against Chad or blame him for any of this?

Because I even just as a viewer, and I've been following the case as well since it first broke during the pandemic, I initially thought, especially when their trials were severed, I was like, oh, they would flip on each other, I would think, especially if she's not under his brainwashing spell anymore. Like, flip on him, say it was your brother, Alex Cox, who did all the dirty work. Do you have any thoughts or theories as to why she didn't do that? And the rumor is that she actually was angry with her attorneys for wanting to speak out against Chad in any way. Yeah, and that that is accurate. I can I we we do have sources very close to the situation.

And yes, she did not want to flip on Chad. And it's interesting, Annie, because Lori actually has more to lose than Chad, which is crazy. I mean, she she she her children are dead. Her you know, her husband is dead. You know, Chad still has his children allegedly on his side. And he has his children who are alive. She is much more, I think, and has lost much more in this situation than, than Chad has. And so you would think that she'd be the first to say, well, and point the finger and say,

well, this is Chad. This is Chad. well, and point the finger and say, well, this is Chad, this is Chad. But yes, she absolutely, from all accounts and from her defense, is still a believer in Chad and his belief system. Chad was the author, I would say, of this belief system. They definitely had some like-minded beliefs that they learned from others along the way but when it came to this additional extremism that they wrote together author together I would call him the author of it and she very much stands by him but I also know that that is not uh his he's not i don't think he's going to stand by her uh and john can talk a little bit more to that yes please elaborate because my next question was going to be something that i had mentioned on my channel when we did the recap when the

verdicts were out as i was like well now depending on where chad's mental state is here he could easily throw this all on lori saying it was her and her brother. They did everything. I didn't know. Then I just tried to help with the cover-up because I loved her so much. So what are your thoughts on how that's going to play out? Yeah, that seems reasonable. He talks to his children quite a bit.

he talks to his children quite a bit. And the interview they did with, what was it, 2020, a while ago, like a year and a half ago, they basically said that. They essentially said that Laurie framed Chad. So I would completely expect some type of defense that revolves around that, that Laurie, I think this is my guess, is Chad is going to argue that he didn't really believe this stuff, that it was fictional. He wrote fictional books and that she took it literally and believed it and acted it out and he didn't know about it, right? I mean, I don't know how far she can go with this. It has to be rooted in reality.

That's their problem. But he can say she didn't really, she believed it, wholeheartedly acted on it, brought in Alex Cox, did this all on her own. He was shocked when he learned about it. He tried to distance himself, right? I don't know. I mean, again, if he says that he was part of

the coverup, that's a problem for him. So, um, like you said, Annie, you know, that, that he might, he's, he might have to say something, right? Because they've got so much evidence of his involvement, but, but I, I, you know, if, if he wants to go for an acquittal, I think he's got to go to, you know to pretty extreme lengths to say, I didn't believe the stuff she did. She acted on it. She brought Alex in. I really didn't know.

And she set me up. That's an interesting perspective for him to do that because part of me questioned, would he maybe agree to a plea deal for a lesser charge if it was just part of like the cover-up piece of it but then it's also like you have the information about his wife tammy and implicating that and her cause of death which it's like if he's trying to if he does try to peddle this story of it was all fiction on my end lori took it and ran with it whether he helped with the cover-up or not it doesn't explain away what happened to tam Tammy and his involvement

potentially with that, because she was only charged and convicted of conspiracy. So I guess then the lines start to get a little bit blurry between that. Well, the way I totally agree, Tammy's the biggest obstacle Chad has for sure, because he's, he's essentially the first one to see and find the body.

And so, and he changed the story like 10 times. So Tammy's a big problem, but I think he would, the way he would deal with that is he would blame it all on Alex Cox. Alex Cox was parked down the road. Alex Cox somehow found her when he was, when he was asleep.

I don't, whatever. Right. I mean, I don't know the story, but, but I, you know, there's when, when he was asleep. Whatever, right? I mean, I don't know the story, but, you know, when Chad was first arrested and he was sitting in jail,

we had some inside sources that were telling us that he was in shock. He was in disbelief that he couldn't understand why he was in jail. Like there's a part of him that really thinks he had nothing to do with this. So, right? Which is so crazy, though, because that phone call with Lori, when they were on the property, you can tell just by what he's saying to her that he knows exactly what they're going to find.

And that's so crazy to me. It's crazy to us too, right? I mean, he's... But if he really, truly has somehow convinced himself of his innocence, then yes, I think he has to pin almost all of it on Lori and Alex Cox. And I mean, the problem that a defense attorney has with that line of argument is, can you

sell it to a jury? Juries are looking for stories that are coherent and fit the evidence and make sense. And so if you sell the jury a story that's like too outlandish, then you got a problem. And there's also a lot of evidence out there that shows that Chad was saying that his works of fiction were real and that his visions were real, right? And so if he comes in and says, well, I didn't really believe this stuff. It was really all fiction. I made it up. I wrote fictional books.

You know, does the jury buy that? You know, that's the risk that he has is, you know, does he try to find some middle ground where he takes some responsibility and maybe, like you said, maybe he opts for a plea deal where he takes like 30 years as opposed to the death penalty. I don't know. But I mean, if, if the Chad that we heard about initially, that was just in disbelief that he was sitting in jail is if that's the same guy, then I don't see him negotiating at all with the state so i i don't know it's it is an interesting issue chad is very literal and so the the disbelief was if i didn't

do it as in if alex cox did all of you know the killings then then why am i here in in jail and there's a part of us that there's a part of him i think that literally thinks that like if i didn't do it then i'm innocent that's how literal and rigid chad dabel is i think we got a glimpse of how he's going to defend himself too with the prosecution which is odd because the prosecution is going to prosecute Chad and prove that Chad was responsible. But for a moment, the prosecution in a slight odd way had to defend Chad for a moment at the

very end. And as you pointed out, the defense did say at the very, very end, they blame, they blame Chad Daybell for Lori at the very end closing arguments and they had not done that before which really confused people why all of a sudden is the defense now blaming chad daybell on the last day of trial and it's because of what we said laurie didn't want them to throw

the defense the laurie did not want her defense team to throw chad under the bus and so it wasn't until she had agreed not to testify which was also a mystery they didn't know if she was going to ask for that or not once she decided not to testify that is when archibald threw chad dable under the bus so in a rebuttal the prosecution had to in an odd way defend chad to show how lori manipulated does that make sense? They had to re re but that, and what the prosecution said was, well, Lori,

Lori manipulated Chad so much with sex. And they pointed that out that she used sex as a tool to, to manipulate Chad. I thought that was really interesting. And I speculate from that, that John prior, now it'll be the defense's turn to, to defend Chad. I thought that was really interesting. And I speculate from that, that John Pryor, now it'll be the defense's turn to defend Chad, will use that against Lori. I think we're going to see some really interesting and maybe even some sexist type things coming up in the defense about how Lori did that, which it's interesting, but there's a little thought to me.

Just a little tidbit. The, the, when Archibald referred to Chad's books as being stupid, I think you, that was like, that was like a precious moment to me because it, it showed his, it showed his anger in a way, right. It showed like that this is a guy who felt like he felt like he had his hands tied behind his back during this defense because Laurie didn't want him to go after Chad. And at the very end, I don't know if I assume he made that decision on his own, it seems. Yeah, because Laurie seemed upset by it after a little bit bothered.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, those books are scripture according to them so yeah oh it was great he just roasted him it was great like he makes no money he's not attractive compared to charles he looks at a joke copies like oh right yeah he like totally took the gloves off and you know but i think that's a glimpse of what he wanted to do throughout the trial right you see kind of his frustrations there and that's that's that's not a good thing for a defense attorney to do i mean i actually thought archibald was was quite good given what he had you know given the evidence given what he was working with but i think in that moment you know you you definitely

could see his frustration and um it was it was certainly an interesting part of the trial i love that annie i'm like you yeah the chad daybell roast it was just like he's like this guy's ugly like it wasn't even like this like scientific defense was like guys he's a look at a picture of chad chad daybell and then look at a picture of Chad Daybell and then look at a picture of Charles Ballot. You think this is about sex? Exactly. Exactly. It's so great. I referred to him as Peter Griffin. I lost my mind when that phone call was released. I was just dying laughing because it's like, and I try not to get so petty and caught up in that, but it's like, you can't help it because for me, at least there's just something about Chad's face that just like every time it pops into my mind,

it just irks me to my core. And then knowing what they allegedly did to those kids. Well, him allegedly Laura. Yes. It just, it makes me hate him so much. And what I wouldn't give to hear from Alex Cox,

like what I would not give to hear his story of all of this and the truth that actually happened, because I think he holds the answers and the keys to everything. Agree. And I think they knew that. I'm on team Alex Cox did not die of natural causes. Same. I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist, but it's like the fact that he died the day after Tammy was exhumed and he was the one who had the wealth of information and knowledge and was going to be the fall guy. I mean, it's way too convenient to me. Way too convenient.

Do you think that Alex had confided in anything of the specifics to Zulema? Do you think she knows more than she's let on? You know, the Zulema thing was weird. And maybe it was because she followed Melanie Gibb. And I've been very honest. I'm not a Melanie Gibb fan. But I thought Zulema, I would love the opinion of your team that was there. I know that you had team members there at the trial.

And I'd love their opinion. But for me, I thought Zulema did a good job on her testimony. And after I listened to her i thought maybe and i'm trying to be i'm not even trying to be mean here like maybe she's just not very smart like maybe she really is that naive and that like you know i was like okay maybe and i'm not saying whether she is or isn't because there are a lot of things that she did and we can go over a b c and d and i am livid that none of these adults screamed to authorities so i'm not defending her by saying that um i don't know you'd have to ask you know john has kind of analyzed her police

interviews or whatever but i do feel overall annie that there were so many adults that could have said things to authorities that didn't and it maddens me it angers me so much I do believe that a lot of them knew more and maybe they just believed you know maybe they just believed I think that Zulema had the opportunity to absolutely know more and see what was going on even when she was questioning Alex she admits that she was saying what's going on did something happen to Tammy what's going on she still didn't go to authorities after that so she's not off the hook but um as far as maybe her being a firm believer maybe maybe i don't know i don't know melanie gibbs don't get me started on her but yeah i agree with you it is extremely frustrating seeing all of the adults that failed these kids because as a as parents i'm sure you can relate just like me it's like

the second my sister i don't care if it's my sister, my best friend, my neighbor. So if somebody comes to me and says, that child has a dark reading, a dark level of X, they're a zombie, something ain't right here. It's not working for me. So that's when the red flags and red lights start going off and that's your job as an adult, a grown adult who has a mind and a brain that works to raise your hand and say, something's up here and I need to talk to somebody. Not, oh, well, that's unfortunate. Or, wow, you're right. What are you even talking about? It is just so frustrating. So Dr. John, what are your thoughts on Zulema? What do you make of her? Dr. John, what are your thoughts on Zulema? What do you make of her?

Are you referring back to whether she knows more than she's telling us or just in general? I mean, I guess a little bit of both, a two-parter. In general, just her as a person, but then also, yeah, do you think that it's possible she knows more and maybe she's trying to, in a weird way, protect Alex's memory and who he was by holding it back? I think with Zulema, I don't see her as a master manipulator. So, I mean, I kind of wanted to, and was sort of the the narrative when i looked at her interview but i i really think there's there's sort of this naivete i don't want to say innocence but there's like this naivete to her and i i don't i really i think she's more or less believable maybe not completely believable, but I think she, I think if she had a lot to convey, she probably would. So, um,

So maybe not all the lights are on upstairs. Yeah. Me and Lauren are on the same page. Say what you can't. Yeah't yeah exactly you be the professor yeah just start talking um okay all right fair enough well she was a lot more forth she was a lot more forthcoming in her testimony than again gibb was i'll give her that. Yeah, I'm not a big Gibb fam myself. Well, I want to switch gears a little bit now. I still have so many questions, of course, about Lori and Chad, and I feel like I could just talk forever about that. But I want to shift gears

over to Brian Koberger because, of course, there is no shortage of just craziness within that case, so many questions. So getting your insight and your way in is so important to me. And I know the listeners are going to want to get that as well. So I kind of want to just start with that as far as, and for those of you listening, if you've been living under a rock, Brian Koberger is of course, the accused murder of the four Idaho students from back in November of 2022. But I would love to just know a little bit more about the psychological traits and what really qualifies a person who goes in and not only kills strangers,

but if it was a quadruple murder. So that amount, which my personal opinion is, I don't think it was ever meant to be a quadruple murder, but also then why use a knife rather than a gun what are some of those psychological traits and before he starts he's thinking about it i just want to say that john gave john gave a great profile before we even learned who brian coberger was um this is me just admiring my very intelligent husband but because i know he won't pat himself on the back, but very early on, I feel like John gave a profile that is Brian Koberger. So this is the person to ask this question to John, let it out, John. Yeah. My, my age range, my age range for the suspect was 18 to 28. So I just barely, that was, I just barely caught his age correctly, but it was a lucky guess. I actually saw the suspect as being maybe a little younger, and 28 is a little bit older for grad school.

older for grad school so uh and but it arguably he's more like someone who's younger in that sense i think but so his age may not be indicative of kind of his emotional state but uh it's clearly someone who's got a lot of rage it's someone who i think is very sensitive to rejection. Someone who's very callous, you know, someone who obviously has no empathy for, for human beings that he's literally tore apart. Right. So, but I think in terms of looking at the crime itself and looking at the psychological elements of the crime,

it's a crime of rage. So that, that much is clear. and why choose a knife why choose a knife as the weapon over say a gun because of the rage that he and the pain he wanted to inflict yes for sure the a knife a knife or even like strangulation for example and a knife are much more personal there's much more intimacy i know that sounds like a strange term to use with a murder, but you're close to the victim. You're seeing them struggle, right?

Like it's so, yes, I agree. You're seeing the pain close up. You're seeing it. You're literally right next to the person as they're dying. And so I think that's why a knife, right? Because a gun would have been much more efficient he could have been in and out faster you know he could have but I but also if the theory is that he's targeting for me this would be my theory is that he was targeting one of the victims and

he was in that sense I think that he took in a knife not expecting necessarily to murder four people that he, there could have been, you know, he could have had some sexual thoughts or fantasies when he went in and that was thwarted when he learned that other people were still awake and that, you know, Madison was in the same bed,

right? This probably wasn't what he thought he was going to find when he walked through the door. It's interesting you say that because I remember in the very beginning when I had heard about this, I initially, and I don't know what brought me to this conclusion,

but I had thought that perhaps Kaylee was his target. And then as I started thinking more, I was like, the fact that he was in and out, that he didn't kill Dylan, thank God. But all of these things, I I started thinking more, I was like, the fact that he was in and out, that he didn't kill Dylan, thank God. But all of these things, I just started thinking, it seems like maybe he did go there with the intention. He was fixated perhaps on Maddie. I think that that is the safe assumption from a lot of people right now. He didn't know Kaylee was going to be there.

She wasn't even supposed to be there. She was then in Maddie's bed. He was rageful about that. Then as he's leaving, the other two roommates are still awake. in Maddie's bed. He was rageful about that. Then as he's leaving, the other two roommates are still awake. Xana's on TikTok. He has to get rid of them. It just foiled his plan.

But going back to the knife piece of it too, a lot of people, and I would love to know your thoughts on this, suggest that perhaps he might be an incel of sorts and that maybe he was using the knife as an appendage, how you get off sexually with that and that maybe he was using the knife as an appendage you know how you get off sexually with that and that level of intimacy like you had briefly mentioned earlier do you think general opinion that that is a possibility uh yeah i i think there's definitely what i would call freudian components in that sense that you know there there could very well be a sexual component. Sure. And again, we don't, you know, I'd like to know more details about who the specific target

was and whether it was Maddie or Kaylee. Yeah, it's not totally clear to me, but I certainly think it seems to me, and again, this is a fact we don't know, but it seems to me, and again, this is a fact we don't know, but it seems to me that there's some component of rejection here. There's some component of being snubbed or rejected or ostracized in some way by one of the victims. Talk a little bit more about that Freudian component, though, because you have discussed this before with me and it is interesting well then yeah i mean it

you know the knife is i know i'm like push him a little more that's what we're like the knife is come on dr j the knife is clearly kind of phallic. I mean, I don't think there's any question about that. I don't know if that, whether, I don't know if this is the type of guy that is sexually sadistic for sure, but yeah, I mean, there would be more of a gratifying element. It's actually gratifying element with a knife than there would be with a gun for sure. So,

but I just don't think we have enough. I don't have enough information to really know to what extent that would be true. I will say this then too. Um, and I think he's holding back a bit, but, but. I will say this then too, and I think he's holding back a bit, but I want to say this, before we even learned who Brian Koberger was, again, John and I were reporting on this early on in the case when nobody knew who this suspect was,

and John did bring up Elliot Roger and that crime. And he compared that profile to something that he believed could be a bit of a similar crime. John is holding back now, and he's right. We don't know Brian Koberger, we we can't say but i do want to point out that john did say that before and i mean i i absolutely can appreciate and understand too wanting to hold back a little bit just because there's a lot of details we don't know and also once you start going down that path it's very easy to just spiral because even when i first was making that connection too with ellie roger i was like and then you have papa roger was that a nod to him as like idolizing it and go and go and then you're like whoa okay i need to take like 30 steps back here and just like regroup for a second so hold the reins in ahead of time so that you don't go down that path right and i and that's why we

appreciate you yeah yeah we all have to like hold back sometimes. Like, hold up. Yeah. Regroup. Tinfoil hat off. Yeah. I want to be a little cautious. Yes.

So given your professional opinions too, and from experience with previous offenders or your time as a journalist, Lauren, when the statement was first made that he had said, you know, I look forward to being exonerated. And now that coupled with him and the legal term of standing silent, because there has been a lot of confusion that he actually stood and was silent with a blank stare, which is not the case. What do you make of a person who chooses to say, I look forward to being exonerated and then also standing silent. Is there any sort

of overlap with the trait there? Is it somebody who truly believes that they're innocent? Is there anything you can elaborate on that? I'll share my speculation first, then John can set me straight or us both straight or share what he thinks. He can go off our speculation to talk about something. My thoughts are, and I would like his opinion. Brian Cogar seems to be a, I'm smarter than everyone else type of a person. You know, almost this elitist type. I understand things that you guys don't, you know, he wanted to help law enforcement. He thinks he's the smartest person in the room. That's what I hear. And so I think he might feel that way too, when it comes to the law and when it comes to attorneys and when it comes to the court. And I think everything about Brian

Kober, Kober is trying to be one step ahead of everybody else. And so I see him as ploying and strategizing and figuring out what his best defense is saying less than he needs to saying just enough. That's just how I see Brian Koberger and someone that you know, yeah, he, he, he definitely I guess that's the best way to explain him. He thinks he's the smartest person in the room. We've all known that person before. And so I see everything he does as a bit of a strategy. But I, you know, John can say I'm wrong, but I'd love to hear his thoughts. Yeah, I think he's posturing. I think this is bravado.

He's essentially saying to the state, let me see you make your case. Let's see what you got. You know, he's, there's the state, let me see you make your case. Let's see what you got. There's so much evidence here. I mean, yeah, most of it's circumstantial, but I think there's a lot more that apparently has been collected that we've heard about. We can't confirm it, but I think he's definitely kind of thumbing his nose at the state and just saying, you know,

I'm innocent until I'm proven guilty guilty and let's see what you got. Yeah. Show me your hand first, you know, bluffing. Yeah. And based on your experience with criminals, you've profiled,

worked with assessed, is there a point in time in which there's, is there a curve? I guess is my question, from when they go from fantasy to executing the crime? Like at what point does it then turn and transition from just thinking about this, just maybe fantasizing about this, to then actually executing a crime like this and committing murder? Good question. So it's completely idiosyncratic. I wish there was a curve spell we could study. I don't know.

Yeah, I'm not sure there's a curve, but it would be unpredictable. You know, it's very idiosyncratic, and it's probably individualistic in terms of each particular murder. So what is the ultimate triggering of that? It's hard to say. You know, it really varies per criminal. But, you know, one of my favorite analogies is from a British psychiatrist who talks about that murder is like a bicycle lock. And you start with some broad things like childhood experiences, family experiences, and then you work your way down to the final piece, to the final lock. And when you turn that final lock and you end up committing

murder, it's very particular and very idiosyncratic to that particular person. So in terms of Kloberger, I think there's this attempt to... Okay. So you guys can see we had a little bit of a change up here with the tech. You guys... The time, I know that I am no stranger to it. So now we just have Lauren and John just super close and they're going to finish this interview just with the closeness, which we love. So my next question for you, Dr. John, is for some of these offenders, you were talking about the difference of how it can go full circle. And actually, maybe that's where we had left off before the tech got wonky. When you were talking about the analogy about where it's going through

the whole phase to where it's then this unlock after they go through the family things, then they graduate to kind of this final step. And so you were saying how that's related to Brian. So we'll start there. Yeah, I really think that Brian Koberger's interest in criminal justice and criminal psychology, to some degree, was related to an attempt to manage some of his violent impulses and violent thoughts. And I feel like there's also this part of him that's sort of OCD or has some obsessive compulsive traits. So I think that he was having a lot of these types of thoughts and feelings. And there's a term psychologists sometimes use, which is sublimation, which is we take something negative and we try to turn it into something positive. So I think he was potentially having some of these violent thoughts and ideations.

And he gets into criminal justice because he feels like that's a place he can manage them. So he's trying to turn that into something positive through his own study and investigation in the criminal mind. But I think there might have been a point where that became overwhelming. And he was just unable to manage those thoughts. And somehow they were probably, maybe they were increasing or escalating. And perhaps that combined with something to do with one of the victims that we don't know about. But I think all of those could have been a triggering point. That when these thoughts became so overwhelming that he was unable to manage them and that his program

or criminal justice wasn't really accomplishing the same goal, you know, I think there might have been some type of tipping point in there related to those elements. With that, and that completely makes sense, absolutely, especially with trying to maybe manage because we, and we'll get to that in a minute, that he had had a lot of these struggles and thoughts since he was you know at a very young age but is there any type of perpetrator that you have come across who in their mind they can justify the crime and they feel as though it was okay for them to do that or do most of them know what they're doing is wrong and they just choose not to care. I think it seems to, with Koberger specifically, it seems to me that he probably knows what he's doing is wrong. I think with him though, there's the sense of superiority. He has this grandiosity where even though it's wrong,

he thinks he can get away with it. I've made an analogy with this character Raskolnikov from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. And Raskolnikov has a similar type of perspective in the sense that he's invested in trying to kill a couple. It turns out he's focused on killing one person and he sees her as kind of an evil, awful person. And so he thinks society won't really care if I kill her, right? So he wants to show that he can commit the perfect crime. He can kill this person

without any consequences. And I think you have something similar here, something a little more personal in the sense that whether it's Maddie or Kaylee or whoever the intended target was there might have been more of a personal connection but I think because of his grandiosity he thinks that he can get away with it and I think because he studied criminality

and the criminal mind that somehow he believes he can pull off the perfect murder sort of like Raskolnikov so Raskolnikov. So Raskolnikov, like Koberger, is sort of this very intellectually detached guy who just, he's a university student, right? And he just, he's not really involved in the real world per se. And so there's, I think there's similarities in that kind of detachment

that in some ways for both like Kohlberger and Raskolnikov, it's theoretical. And so from a theoretical standpoint, these people think, oh, I can do this. I've studied this. I can pull this off. But of course, pulling it off is a much different, it's a much, right, it's much different actually committing a crime than it is thinking about a crime. And so that's obviously where he stumbled and ran into a lot of problems. To say the least. and the police announced they are looking for a suspect, what would be going on psychologically in that person's mind as they're watching it unfold? I mean, we have seen bits and pieces of evidence come out that suggests perhaps the next morning he revisited the crime scene, which would be an immediate aftermath type of thing. But for the weeks until it was announced, what would be going on in the defendant's mind?

going on in the defendant's mind? Well, as someone who's a bit obsessive, he's probably thinking about it a lot. He's probably obsessing about mistakes he made. He left some evidence behind, right? He has to be thinking about that. I think he's, at some point, when it looks like the police have limited evidence and they really don't know who the suspect is, even though we now know they identified him as a suspect fairly early. I think that was actually strategy on their part to see if they could somehow bring him out in the open or kind of flush him out in the sense that would he go back to the crime scene again? Right. Would he would he be calling talk shows? Would he, right. Would he, would he try to make his presence felt? And, and he, I think he was doing that to some degree, by the way, but.

Like the Papa Rogers account. Well, yeah, right. Exactly. Or if, if, yeah, if that's. I think so. Yeah. I mean, I'm team. Well, yeah, we won Or if, yeah, if that's. I think so, yeah. I mean, I'm team, well, yeah, we won't worry about it. But yes, I mean, I think that's what police were wondering. Yeah. Right. They wanted to see if he would be active on those types of accounts or, you know, would he.

I think in particular they were interested in somebody who, and they wouldn't have known this at the time, but somebody who's obsessive probably would come back and visit the scene. And, you know, maybe not directly enter the crime scene, obviously, because it's off limits, but at least like survey. He did the next morning, yeah. But even more than that, like would he, because he'd have no reason to go back there. So as far as we know, it seems like he didn't revisit it

after the morning, but I don't know for sure. No, I wouldn't say that. I don't know. We don't know. I think they were probably looking for suspicious activity or just anything that can kind of help them build that case. Now it's interesting because you talked about the possibility of him just having kind of this obsessive behavior, a little bit OCD with things and being fixated on if he left something behind or just replaying things over and over in his mind. does that type of person and that type of profile align with somebody who would then insert themselves into this investigation into this case by saying before it was ever announced i think he left the sheath behind i think he was in and out in 14 minutes i think this is how he entered and like leaving these breadcrumbs almost or was this person is that something that's not in that kind of character makeup and was this account owner whoever that something that's not in that kind of character makeup? And was this account owner, whoever they are, just super intelligent and had a crystal ball

and knew all of those things? Right. Yeah. They probably didn't have a crystal ball. So in that sense, yes. I think somebody who's more obsessive compulsive, and again, I'm not diagnosing here. who's more obsessive compulsive. And again, I'm not diagnosing here. I'm just, there's certain to be those certain, there appear to be those elements with Brian Koberger from other events in his life, like his diet, for example, that he's extremely restrictive about certain foods he eats

and he's obsessive about his weight, right? There, there's certain elements that fit kind of that profile but but sure that somebody who's has more obsessive tendencies is more likely to to be a little bit more vocal about it they're less likely to kind of lay dormant and just let time pass because it's going to be they're going to be obsessing about it. And when you obsess about something, a lot of times you feel a great deal of anxiety and stress. And there's this need to release that stress by doing something, by acting. And in fact, I think that's arguably one of the reasons why he committed the murders in the first place,

is because he'd been fantasizing about these murders for some period of time, more than likely, and there was just this incredible tension that built up and the stress. And in many cases, those types of qualities, the only way to really address that stress is to act. And there's evidence that after he committed the murders, he was more relaxed. Students said he was after the murders, right after, that he was

different. He was not grading people as harshly, right? So that's consistent with someone who has more of those OCD qualities, that he's getting to the point where he's feeling so much tension and anxiety and stress that he feels compelled to act. He just needs that trigger. And with that trigger, he finally acts. And he's different. He's noticeably different in terms of his body language, in terms of his demeanor, in terms of his emotions. And students and faculty are noticing that.

Now, getting, or not getting, I should say, but staying inside his mind for a little bit longer, what would be going through his mind as he's sitting at his arraignment and he's hearing the judge relay the charges, the victim's names, what happened, almost like reliving it. Would he be paranoid? Would he be relishing in that moment, hearing that? What would be going through a criminal's mind in that moment? Yeah, it's hard to know for sure. What do you think? This is what I want to ask him. No, I have no answer. I'm going to just say, yeah, what Annieie said so tell us this is what i've been wanting to ask you well he seemed fairly detached to me

that i think there's i think he's trying to create some emotional distance from it there almost seemed like a dissociative state that he like with laurie daybell in the sense that she's present but not fully present. And dissociation, by the way, is typical of trauma. And Koberger is someone who, by most accounts, suffered from a significant amount of trauma. And again, when I say these types of things, people say, oh, are you excusing him? No.

I think arguably, and again, I don't know for sure. I mean, this is speculation. None of us know what a criminal is thinking precisely. Even when I sit down in a prison with a criminal, they don't have full access to their minds either. So the criminal mind is in some ways opaque because nobody knows for sure what they're experiencing and a lot of it's unconscious. But it seems to me that there's some element of dissociation like there was with Lori Daybell in the sense that this is someone, I think, that's experienced a lot of trauma as a child, a lot of bullying, and he probably developed this ability

to remove himself from the situation and to create some distance and detachment from what was going on. And so that would be consistent with someone who's very unemotional too. And in that sense, it looked to me like he's present, but not wholly present, not fully present. Right, yeah. And as John said, mentioning that someone's had trauma is in no way excusing.

Yeah, right. His job is to assess criminals and to figure out why a plus a equals Z. Providing reasons and motivations doesn't excuse it, even if some of those reasons happen to be based in childhood traumas or childhood adversity. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm excusing it, right? We're just trying to illuminate it. Of course, of course. And yeah, I understand a little bit more. I guess my question too now with the crime itself, and this is maybe a little bit of a two-parter, new information was, of course, released in this week regarding Brian Koberger's parents. They were required to testify in front of a grand jury in Pennsylvania regarding a missing woman who is a 45-year-old named Dana

who went missing back in May of 2022, which happened to be a couple of months before Brian moved to Washington. She had been found. She unfortunately was deceased. They haven't released, to my knowledge, the cause of death. They haven't released, to my knowledge, the cause of death. They have only announced that she was identified through dental records, and I don't know if that's because of the level of decomposition or what the reasoning is, but it was a big announcement because, of course, then a lot of people, it begs the question, could Brian be responsible for another murder? Is that the ID card that possibly was found in his home? It also, I don't know if it's been confirmed,

but it's been said that the parents were trying to block the subpoenas and they didn't want to testify, but then they were required to. It hasn't led to an indictment or charges or anything like that at this moment of recording, but taking that into consideration, which I also should, I guess, mention too,

that there has been a source that has come forward saying that brian has a rock solid alibi for when she did go missing and so that he wasn't involved this is strictly to just get information about that case but of course it has everybody up in arms and everybody talking and the rumor mill going wild so i think everybody's kind of been wondering since brian was arrested was this his first crime is he a serial in your professional opinion is it common for a murderer alleged murderer but is it common for a murderer to jump directly to a quadruple murder whether it was planned to be a quadruple or not, or there could possibly be some confidence

built along the way and perhaps some other victims until you then gradually get to that crescendo point of a quadruple happening. Again, I think murders tend to be so idiosyncratic, it's hard to really say with certainty. So do I think that he's someone that could potentially have committed other murders or similar crimes? Sure. He's given kind of his obsessive compulsive nature or some of those qualities. nature or some of those qualities. If you look at someone like Brian Koberger and you look at their history and the history of bullying and trauma, there's probably a lot of rage. There's probably revenge fantasies. There's probably some depression. In the Tap a Talk forum, for example, he talks about his depression. He talks about some of this. He talks about his anxiety. example he talks about his depression he talks about some of this he talks about his anxiety

and you probably have some shame you probably have issues around his masculinity you know I think to some degree he probably feels emasculated because women are rejecting them all the time I think you you have a lot of elements here that could potentially lead to violent crimes. So when those began, I don't know. I think I could argue pretty strongly that those thoughts have been there for a while, and he's trying to manage them through his program and through other means. He had been a heroin addict, for example. That's a really effective if you want to blunt your thoughts

it's a pretty good way to do it so was he having violent thoughts back then when he was using heroin? yeah probably but he wasn't acting on them more than likely but at one point at some point he stops heroin and these thoughts become more overwhelming

and so is it possible that he committed other violent crimes? For sure. Somebody with his personality and his background, there's going to be some risk there of violence. But when he begins to act violently or whether there's other victims that he's sort of rehearsing with. I don't, you know, it's, so is it possible that this could be one of his victims? I mean, yeah, sure, it is. I think it is. But I don't know. You know, I think we're going to have to rely

on law enforcement to really investigate more and dig up some of those details to know. And as much as this could be, as much as he could have had additional crimes, this could also, you see, this could also be his first crime. Yeah. That he's just violent enough and violent in nature to where he did commit his first crime as a quadruple murder. Yeah. And probably unintentionally. Again, it seems to me like he was probably targeting one victim. Yeah, we agree with you on that, Annie.

We agree with you that he didn't go in there to kill four people necessarily. Right. I don't think that was his intention. Well, talking to his behavior and his childhood and some of the struggles that he had faced, you guys found the form talking about the visual snow. How you guys found that, what visual snow is, and what those posts that he had made helped you guys learn about him and any insight that it provided. Yes.

And this is the mic, so I'm just going to do this. Look at this. We always use a mic stand. Love that. Love that. Hold it. I'm going to sing a song after. No. And then I'll drop it. Yeah, perfect for the mic drop. I love that. Yes, we did find the Tap a Talk forum about visual snow or to clarify, a team member who wants to remain anonymous found the Tap a Talk forum on visual snow. That whole day on January 7th, we were going over everything before we went live, confirming the facts, confirming that it was him double checking everything. They took Brian Koberger's information, all of the usernames that he has ever used, all of the emails that this person knew of that Brian Koberger ever had, all of these things that this person knew about Brian Koberger ever had. All of these things that this person knew

about Brian Koberger and put them into somewhat, this is very layman's. I am not a data person, but put them into a search bar. How about that? You know how you search things? They did every possible thing they could with multiple websites where it made it possible for someone to search very detailed emails and usernames.

And so every username and every email that we had on record for Brian Koberger, they put into the Tap a Talk website. Thus, we found the visual snow forum. I don't know if that helps make sense of it, but that's something we've actually never shared publicly. So you know more right now. I love this. Did you find anything on dating websites for him? We still look. Our team members still exist. They still look. It's something that we're very lucky to have some really talented people. So then when you guys came across these posts, of course, I'm sure your first reaction was like, what the fuck? Like, oh my God, like, wow, what is all this? But also what kind of insights then did it provide on who this person is and who brian really was what we were very overwhelmed when we saw it earlier that day

and you know we had no plans to go live that day or even work i think we just finished our live the night before we do a weekly live on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. And so it threw everything out of sync and in a loop. And we're like, is this, holy cow. And like you, Annie, we dot our I's, we cross our T's and John's going to have to read through everything before we talk about it. And we were just so overwhelmed by the amount of information and what he was sharing on this health forum. I mean, maybe John actually has some of his writings here in notes. So maybe I should hand the mic. It is funny. We're holding a mic everyone, because it's usually the nightstand, but there two of us so i'll hand the mic over to my better half yeah also i just wanted and he was speculating about whether we had him on

any dating sites i'm trying to figure out what dating let you know he would what would it be like uh match serial killers.com or something that would he strikes me as somebody who would do a free site like plenty of fish or something right probably not farmers only no no i guess pennsylvania maybe we'll check maybe maybe violent tinder i don't know yeah um yeah they're only they did that on dating sites would be easier that's true yeah if you my sister is going to kill me for saying this but i was at dinner with her last night and she's on a dating site and she said that there was a guy she matched with or who had messaged her. And in his bio, the first thing it said, it said out on parole or out on probation or something like that, people were dedicated that way, but continue. Only, right.

It would make life a lot easier. Yes. Right. You get like a check mark of blood or something to indicate that you have some history of violence. Yeah, it would save lives, actually. It would. Yeah, so the Tabata talk, it was fascinating because we did get a glimpse into his younger

mind, his adolescent mind over a period of years. So I think you could really see some of his formative development. And there's moments in the forum where he talks about, there's some really vulnerable revealing moments where he talks about hearing screams and seeing demons. And right. So, I mean, those are incredibly revealing and important moments in terms of understanding who this person is. So it was really a fascinating discovery,

and it really helped us understand him better. You had some spots highlighted. Yeah. I mean, this is a quote from one of the things he wrote. He says, This is a quote from one of the things he wrote. He says, I'm stuck in the depths of my mind where I have to constantly battle my demons. He says later, I hear screams faintly, but I constantly battle away from them.

It's chilling. It is chilling, right? It is chilling. Right. It is chilling. And I mean, of course, the question we raise in looking at something like this from such a young adolescent is where was the help? Was there any attempt to get help? Could he have gotten help? Right. Because that's always a question that can prevent later problems if it's effective. Well, and I guess there's no way to know, but my question would be too,

does it stay at that level of what he was dealing with or as he's aging, does it progressively get more challenging to suppress and it gets harder for him and it just keeps going? Right, exactly. If somebody, especially somebody who's a little obsessive compulsive or potentially obsessive compulsive, do these thoughts escalate? And my speculation is yes, they do. And so hence, I think his interest in criminal justice, I think he's really, he's trying to, as I mentioned earlier, he's trying to sublimate these negative thoughts and these negative impulses. And he's trying to, as I mentioned earlier, he's trying to sublimate these negative thoughts and these negative impulses. And he's trying to create something positive from that or at least channel them in a direction that's pro-social rather than anti-social. I mean, the one thing he says here, reading from the same post that John's reading from, which we thought was the most profound one, he says,

I felt like a criminal, but where was my record showing that even as a child, he felt like a criminal, which means yes. Did he think about crime? Yes. He thought about crime. He thought about probably committing crime. And I, you know, so John's insight there, I find really interesting that he probably understood there was a bit of a problem. And so he was going to go this pro-social route, learn about criminology, maybe trying to learn about himself, try to get this internship with the police department that he was attempting to do, be an aid, a teacher's aid. Of course, he was fired for that, which we find a big, interesting part that we plan to talk about later on our channel. Here's another interesting quote.

This is from the same information we found. He says, I feel like an organic sack of meat with no self-worth as i am starting to view everyone as this right he i mean yeah there's a total lack of empathy there right he's not only does he view himself as just this organic piece of meat, I guess, as something less than human, but he's also seen other people that way. Yeah, there's no value in his life or others to him, it seems. It's interesting because you both have mentioned now about the possibility of him getting into the criminal justice field to learn more about himself, to possibly control his urges a little bit more,

and just understand that. And to my knowledge, it hasn't been proven one way or another, if that research questionnaire that everybody had found with all those questions was in fact for a particular project or something of that nature. And correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't heard that it actually has been proved one way or another. but I do find it interesting because a lot of those questions were, what were you thinking in those moments? What made you pick a particular victim over another to where it felt like either trying to create the perfect roadmap himself, or if you look at it on the other side, trying to really understand what these convicted felons were thinking to where you're like, I really am a psychopath. There is something here because my thoughts are the exact same answers that these people are providing. Yeah. So I think we know that this was actually part,

this was going to be part of a master's thesis project that never came to fruition. So it was never actually given to criminals, but the intent was to do that. My understanding is that there simply wasn't time that he wasn't able to complete that because he ran out of time, but it was part of his master's program and it was real. He did create the survey and he intended to use it. He just didn't have the time or the resources to get it done. But I agree with you. I think getting back to this idea that he's in criminal justice to kind of cope with his own issues, I think that that survey is an attempt to normalize these types of criminal thoughts, right? That he wants to ask other criminals, hey, are you experiencing what I'm experiencing? Are you thinking about killing people too? Are you thinking about violence? I think it's really his effort to feel normal and

to kind of normalize what he's doing. And again, like to, to sublimate that. And somehow if other people are feeling the same thing that he is, even though they're criminals, he's going to take that information and use it in a positive way. So, so yeah, I think that survey is fascinating in the sense that it is another attempt by him to cope with, I think, his violent thoughts and impulses. Well, I just want to thank you both so much because I know we've gone on way longer than I initially told you we were going to be. So I appreciate you guys sticking around through that. But just for sharing all of your thoughts, your expertise on both Valo and on Coburger, it was so extremely helpful for me to hear and talk through a lot of this. So I know that it was helpful for a lot of the listeners and viewers. So we definitely have to do this again, but I just wanted to thank you. And before we jump off, can you just tell

everybody where to follow you, your different platforms, what you guys have coming up? I know, Lauren, you mentioned you guys are going to be speaking about another detail of this case very soon and your thoughts and theories behind that. So let everybody know where they can find you. Thank you, Annie. And thank you again for inviting us on. We have such a respect for your channel and your community and what you do. So thank you. Yeah, we're Hidden True Crime on YouTube. In fact, around across the board, except for how we started, we started on our podcast, which is hidden a true crime podcast. And then after we did our podcast and we, we got our other social media accounts and our YouTube channel, everything became hidden true crime. So, so for the most part, you can find us using hidden true crime. We are at youtube.com

slash hidden true crime, twitter.com slash hidden true crime, um, instagram.com slash hidden true crime, we are at youtube.com slash hidden true crime, twitter.com slash hidden true crime, um, instagram.com slash hidden true crime, facebook.com slash hidden true crime. So there's your tip. And then of course the podcast hidden a true crime podcast. That's how we started. That's our first, but, um, when we decided to shorten it after, but yeah, on the daybell case, um, that podcast is, you know, that's how we, that's okay. Um, on the daybell case, that's how we, that's when we started our podcast. So our first season beyond the veil is all about the daybell case and me asking the questions you're asking. What about this? What about that? Tell me about this. And then, uh, we do cover, uh, of course the, the Brian Koberger, Idaho four.

And we, John, actually, this is something that everyone knows, but, uh, Gabby Petito, we were, we were lesser known than on YouTube, but when that Moab body cam footage came out while everyone was looking for Gabby, we assessed that. And John said, this guy's an abuser. Can't you see this? Look at this, A, B, C, and D. And we went through that. So we have, uh, we care a lot about the Gabby Petito case. And then we cover other cases on our YouTube and podcast. So, and we're just, well, thank you. And Murdoch. Oh my goodness. Murdoch. Yeah. I know there's no shortage, unfortunately. Right. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. We, we did cover a lot of the Murdoch trial and John gave a very unique and specific

analysis and motive to those crimes. And it was, you know, a lot of that ended up whether or not it was because of John or not, but a lot of that ended up in closing arguments. So. That's great. See, you're just the silent, John, you're the silent helper for everybody. Just behind the shelf are helping everybody and keeping people safe and giving closers their arguments. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I know the Murdoch thing was mind-blowing that we jumped on Murdoch like, I don't know, six days before. We had been following. We had been following, yeah.

But we weren't going to jump on it unless we had something to say. That's something that sets us apart. We're not just going to jump on something because, you know, it's a big crime. So, right, we jumped. We'd been following Murdoch, but about six days before closing arguments, we decided to say something. Yeah, and actually that was one of the early questions that Annie asked was, how do you find crimes to talk about?

And I feel like I didn't get a chance to answer that, so I'll answer that now. Yeah, perfect. I think for me, we choose crimes or I choose crimes. We talk about it together what we're going to cover. But I want them to illuminate something different about the human condition. about the human condition. So my criteria is kind of that they should be unique in the sense that they provide some insight into human beings that we can learn from and that are sufficiently different. Like Daybell's about cults, for example. And Murdoch is about family and intergenerational trauma, for example. And Koberger is about like the boogeyman coming in the middle of the,

at 4 a.m. in the night with this, with a mask and a knife. Right. And he's, he's everywhere in our dreams and our nightmares. Right. So like each of these, each of these crimes, I think really provide some unique insights into human beings. And that's kind of the criteria we use to, to choose the different crimes that we, that we talk about. So. I love that. Well, and we appreciate it as listeners and viewers that you choose those crimes because those are the ones that are always the hardest to get in the mind of and really put

those puzzle pieces together. So again, when there's experts like yourselves that come on and kind of break that down and help explain that, it's just incredibly helpful. Thank you. Yeah. If we have something to say, we'll say it. We follow a lot of crimes. I'm sure you do too, Annie. And it comes down to what crimes we cover when we feel like we can add something worthwhile and important to the conversation. That's when we'll jump on a crime. Yeah, and on that note, I was going to appear on Nancy Grace, her podcast this past week, but she canceled and probably will reschedule,

but she was going to talk about Rand Hooper. I don't know if you know the Rand Hooper case, but Rand Hooper was in a boat crash with one of his close friends. And he essentially, his friend fell off the boat into the water and Rand Hooper essentially decided to leave the scene and leave his friend for dead. And I think, I believe his friend was still alive. His friend's name is Graham McCormick. I think, I believe his friend was still alive. His friend's name is Graham McCormick.

But Graham McCormick eventually drowned, and they were friends. And so to me, it's, you know, it was an accident. It was a tragic accident, and I don't think that Rand Hooper ever intended for his friend to die at the scene of the crash. But it's a fascinating situation to me because it really gets into issues about friendship and what that means and why would someone leave their friend to die, right? Like it's a really unusual situation. And to me, the most baffling part of it is that he didn't try to spot his friend in the water. He literally turned his boat around. I mean, I think a lot of that had to do with self-preservation.

You know, he was worried about the consequences, obviously. But how do you make that decision to abandon one of your best friends and let him drown and die right like and so wow how do you choose that your life is more important than his in that moment that's unreal right it's unreal right and i'm still we're still like thinking about the comp you know the repercussions of that because there's there's so many levels at which that's just really hard to fathom, you know, like in the sense that a lot of our society is based on the notion of friendship to some dissents in the sense that friendship is really kind of the social glue that holds communities together in many cases, right?

And so this is in some ways a fundamental violation of that social fabric. This is in some ways a fundamental violation of that social fabric. And not just a violation, but like a best friend violating that social contract, right? So I don't know. Anyway, we're thinking about that too. Yeah, that's a very interesting one. I'll be on the lookout for that from you. Yeah, it's so peculiar.

Yeah. So that's the first question you asked and our last answer, but thank you. I love it. Full circle. I love a full circle moment. Well, thank you both again so much for coming on. We will link all of your podcasts, your channels, your socials in the description box for those of you watching or listening. And thank you guys so much again. Thank you. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Bye. Thanks, Annie. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and you it was a pleasure bye thanks annie thank you i hope you enjoyed today's episode and that it was informative for you and i hope you loved the special guests as much as i did i just learned so much from john and lauren they are just such a wealth of knowledge

so i hope we can have them on again soon all right guys thanks so much for tuning in to another episode of serialously please take a quick moment if you're not following the podcast already click that button in the corner of your podcast app follow along so that you don't miss any episodes and if you would be so kind as to leave a quick rating maybe take 30 seconds to write a review i would greatly greatly appreciate it all right guys thank you so much for tuning in and i will see you on the next episode of Serialistly. All right. Bye, true crime besties.