SERIALously - 32: Idaho 4 Case Feat. Jennifer Coffindaffer, Former FBI Special Agent

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Bonus Episode! Special Guest Host Jennifer Coffindaffer joins us to discuss all of the recent happenings in the Idaho Murders Case. Bryan Kohberger was recently granted a stay on his case, temporarily pausing the clock on the countdown for his speedy trial until August 11, 2023. His defense team was granted access to the grand jury transcripts, which they will go through now since they believe there was exculpatory information left out in the proceedings, according to their original motion when they asked the court for a stay. Right before this was granted, an alleged leaked video surveillance of a nearby apartment on Linda Lane surfaced, in what seems to be the exact time the horrific and brutal slayings of Kaylee Goncalvez, Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, and Maddie Mogen in the early hours of November 13, 2022.  Follow Jennifer on Twitter: https://twitter.com/CoffindafferFBI  Your True Crime BFF, Annie Elise  All Social Media Links: https://www.flowcode.com/page/annieelise_ About Me: https://annieelise.com/ For Business Inquiries: [e-mail]

Hey true crime besties, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly. Hey everybody, welcome back to a bonus episode of Serialistly with me, Annie. And boy, do we have a bonus episode for you today. I am very excited to bring you today's episode with today's special guest because I have been watching her content, her interviews for years, it feels like. And so I am so excited that she is now joining me today to talk all things Brian Koberger, the Idaho 4 case, all of the questions that have been swirling in that case regarding the DNA, the stay in the courtroom, all of these things. So I'm going to introduce her in just a second. But first, let me just kind of give you a breakdown and ground you as to what it is that we are going to be discussing today because

it does feel like so many people are putting out new videos about Brian Koberger every other day that I know it's hard to keep track. So I just kind of want to like ground everybody for a minute here. So Brian Koberger was recently granted a stay on his case, which temporarily paused the clock on the countdown for his speedy trial. And this is until August 11th of this year, 2023. Now, his defense team was granted access to the grand jury transcripts, which they will go through now, since they believe that there was exculpatory information that was left out in the proceedings. And this all according to their original motion when they asked for the stay. believe that there was exculpatory information that was left out in the proceedings and this all according to their original motion when they asked for the stay. Right before this was granted,

an alleged leak surveillance video went out on the internet of an apartment on Linda Lane and in this video that surfaced, it seems to be the exact time that the horrific and brutal slayings of Kaylee, Maddie, Zanna, and Ethan occurred. So it got many people discussing it, as you can imagine. There's been a lot of discussion online if this video is real or not, has it been tampered with, has it been altered, and of course if the timestamps are authentic. And what the video shows, which really isn't that much except for some car lights, some car sounds, and some course, if the timestamps are authentic. And what the video shows, which really isn't that much except for some car lights, some car sounds, and some moving, but what the video suggests is that the white Elantra that Brian was driving and the timestamps align for the most part, aside of some minor little differences here and there. However, as I mentioned, nobody really knows how this surveillance

video was released, if it's real, and what the truth in it means. Also, since we know there's a gag order on this case, nobody really is privy to any information. On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there and some sleuths out there that think that this video shows a lot more than that. Some people are now theorizing that the DoorDash driver was either at the home at the same time that the murders occurred or that the video shows that Brian had help in all of this. So is this video footage real? Was it fabricated? Does it change the timeline at all? Or is this all just a huge reach and a crazy theory? So I wanted to come on here and break it all down for you guys,

but I didn't want to do it alone. I thought, who better to help come on here and help explain everything that is currently going on in Idaho versus Brian Koberger than the incredibly smart and talented Jennifer Koffendaffer. Jennifer is a former special agent with the FBI with over 28 years of experience in federal law enforcement. She's participated in numerous high-profile arrest operations and led nationally recognized investigations. She is frequently a guest on various news networks such as News Nation, Court TV, NBC, CBS, among many others. And she's on these as an expert correspondent to help break down current cases she is also the CEO of Firearms Beyond International like I said I have been watching Jennifer for a long time and her level of insight always astounds me so I am so excited

to have her on here help break down some of the stuff going on in this case so without further ado I'm going to bring Jennifer on and we will jump right into everything all right everybody on here to help break down some of the stuff going on in this case. So without further ado, I'm going to bring Jennifer on and we will jump right into everything. All right, everybody, please give a warm welcome to Jennifer. She is joining the episode today and I am personally so excited as I already mentioned to you guys. But Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on. Do you mind just giving the viewers and the listeners a little bit more insight into your experience, what you spend your time doing now, and just a little more background? Oh, sure. Absolutely. And again, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited to be here. So in terms of my background, I was a federal agent for more than 28 years, and my areas of work that I did were in organized crime, gang investigations, violent crime. And then I was also on a part-time basis, if you will. FBI agents usually have other things

we do other than our casework. In other words, extracurricular activities. So I was on the Houston SWAT team, the Dallas SWAT team and the San Juan SWAT team and taught firearms. Currently, I work as an expert witness in cases throughout the United States and really enjoy that. I also teach firearms and self-defense. And then I'm a contributor with News Nation. Perfect. And I feel like, first of all, that sounds like my dream job. I'm sure so many people listening, that sounds like a dream job. So thank you for your service and all of your hard work, first and foremost. But also, I feel like that just kind of solidifies why I feel like you're the most important and the expert to come on today and talk about all things Brian Koberger,

Idaho. I know you're no stranger to all of the conspiracy theories and craziness going out on there right now on the internet. So I was hoping to just kind of pick your brain on a few things, get your insight, and see if we can make sense of some of the wild stuff going on out there right now, the crazy streets. That sounds great. I really appreciate your channel because you are a fact finding, want to get the truth out channel. So I loved it that you want to hone in

on the truth and kind of throw the rest to the side. So I can't wait to dig in. Oh, perfect. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. That is a huge compliment coming from you. So I want to start with more of everything going on on the court side of things before we jump into the new surveillance video that has been leaked and is out there in the DNA. But starting with everything in the courtroom, can you just explain to the listeners a little bit about what exactly this 37-day stay was that was issued and what it means and how exactly it's going to impact things or if it even will impact things. I think it'll not impact things. I mean, basically, he's just saying, listen, the proceedings are kind of at a stay, if you will, just to put it in layman's terms.

But he has said that deadlines are not being stayed. So as an example, the defense still has to prove, or I shouldn't say prove, they have to come up with or tender an alibi. And they have been given a deadline, I believe, of July 24th. In addition, been given a deadline, I believe, of July 24th. In addition, the prosecution has a deadline on the items that they need to produce, and that's part of discovery. This is including all the information concerning the Elantra and the information in terms of how did they get that Elantra narrowed down to Brian Koberger and the different videos that they have that they believe are Brian Koberger's Elantra and why they believe that. Then they also have the cast report due.

This is going to be a pivotal part of the investigation, I believe, because it's going to give the digital forensics related to the cell phones in this case. Okay, great. And it's interesting you say that because I can't remember where I heard this, but I think this morning when I was poking around, I heard that the discovery is due like three days or something before the alibi is due. Is that correct? Yeah, it is due before. The exact date, I believe, was July 14th. Oh, OK. I'm sorry. I should have grabbed that date. I think July 14th is when the prosecution's evidence is due or discovery is due. And then I believe the 24th is when the alibi is due.

And I know there's the gag order on the case, but do you expect that once the discovery is turned over, there will be more leaks, for lack of a better word, of what they have and what evidence they believe they have against Brian? these motions that we're seeing. We've seen a lot of verbiage. And for instance, the big one is, right, that there's no forensic evidence related to DNA in the car, in the apartment, in the house, at his work. So that was really leaked, if you will, because the motion was tendered. And that's what the defense attorney has said. So I think we are going to see similar types of documents come out that give us more of a glimpse into what was made in that discovery. Okay, that's great. That's great to hear. And one of my questions with that too that I had, are jury transcripts usually released to the defense? The grand jury transcripts typically aren't, but in Idaho they are. That is a law. There was no way that that wasn't going to be followed. So I well anticipated that the transcripts would be released.

But recall the defense wanted far more than just the transcripts. They wanted things like names and deliberations and really the gamut of everything that happened with the grand jury proceeding. They're not allowed that. They're going to get the transcript, but it's going to take a while to transcribe. Okay. Okay, great. And what are your thoughts going back to that

surveillance video I mentioned earlier? This new video has been leaked everywhere. Everybody's analyzing it a million different ways. Some people are suggesting perhaps it was enhanced, altered. It's legit. Who knows? So what do you make of that video? Do you think that this truly is accurate, that it was leaked, or is this just a fake video going around kind of like the Ring doorbell camera footage went around months ago? Well, I think the timestamp on this video is very interesting. If you look, some people on social media and different creators have looked at an image that was sort of walking. And then I think they even fast forwarded it, made it look like they were running.

And there was even a flashlight. And if you look at that, it says one in the morning. So the timing is just off on this. My jury is a little bit out because I think, and I tweeted about this actually, I'm not even convinced in terms of the line of sight, but this is what I do know. And I think this is what's important. The probable cause affidavit clearly took from multiple videos and clearly saw all these turns being made by Brian Koberger. and they line out exactly the actions that they believe that vehicle took. So from my view, I just am not sure how important saying that this video

is one of the ones they used is. That's going to come out, I think, relying on the bedrock of facts, which is the probable cause affidavit. We know those turns were made and we know that's what took place prior to the killings. Yeah, I agree with you because there were, I remember when I read through that, they were so specific with the exact turns he made, the direction he was going, everything to where I remember when I pulled up the map and I was trying to like piece it back together. I was like, oh my gosh, I've never seen anything where it's this detailed. So now I know people are using that information saying, oh, well, if it wasn't him, it was the DoorDash driver. He must be in on it. And all of these, in my opinion, kind of outlandish theories and some greater conspiracy.

So do you think that there's any weight in that or do you just kind of chalk it up to people talking? I think I'm just chalking it up to this bizarre phenomena that's happening with this case because of the gag order. in November and December when we didn't know who committed this crime, when there was no evidence, when people were just speculating based on what could be found. I mean, was it the jacks? Was it the door dash driver? And it seems like we've come full circle. It's the craziest thing. It really does. You're right. I'm on a time warp. I'm at a bad Back to the Future sequel headed backwards in time. And, you know, with the DoorDash driver, it clearly states in the affidavit that the DoorDash driver was identified and gave information that corroborated Santa Cronodle's order. And why aren't they naming the DoorDash driver? For obvious reasons.

Look at what's happening with Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Malk. I mean, they're keeping that name hidden as well as they should. There was no way they could keep Bethany and Dylan's name hidden, but they've been able to keep that name hidden. And that's why I think we don't know more. And people are just crazy speculating. To your point, as far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, they've also kept the original 911 call, not only the call and audio itself hidden, but the caller's identity a secret, correct? I know there's been rumors around. Has it been confirmed who made that call? a secret, correct? I know there's been rumors around. Has it been confirmed who made that call?

It hasn't been confirmed. I believe it's been confirmed that it was Dylan Mortensen's phone, but not that it was Dylan Mortensen. In fact, I believe the chief said it was somebody else. And so, no, we haven't seen the 911 case or I should say or tape, I should say heard the 911 tape, and we're not going to. I believe unless there's some catastrophic leak of some nature or maybe somebody who tries to make up that tape and release it, I wouldn't doubt something like that could happen. But I don't think we'll hear that legitimate tape until trial. Which hopefully, because to your point, it's been pretty wild and unnerving seeing how many people are attacking anybody whose name is put out there in a public way and just spinning these stories. Dylan, I can't even imagine, and I've been pretty vocal on my channel and my podcast about that too. I can't imagine what this young girl

is going through. Not only the survivor's guilt she must already feel, but then being attacked for trying to paint her, the narrative that she was somehow involved in it, that she was dating Brian, that it was drug deals gone wrong, all of these things, all while this girl had this gruesome and harrowing discovery and then also is trying to and came face to face with this person trying to reconcile what just happened and now the entire internet is coming after her some people even making videos saying she was trans at one point i mean it's pretty unbelievable the attention and the rumor mill that has really come from this case. You said even on a very personal level. And I don't know.

I hope she's getting the proper support she needs. And I'm so glad she seems to be in deep hiding, where at least we haven't seen her, you know, hiding and shrouded from the paparazzi and other people trying to exploit her. But I feel terrible for this victim and what she went through. And I think it's unconscionable, the creators and people on social media that are villainizing her.

And I've said that from day one, as you have said. I completely agree with you. Now, I want to shift gears a little bit. Now that we've talked about that footage, I want to talk more about the DNA because not only do I want to get your opinion on that, but in your professional experience, I want to know if you've seen anything like that because one of the biggest pieces of conversation out there right now is that there was essentially no DNA from any of the victims inside Brian's vehicle, that he didn't have any DNA on his person, that the only DNA was really the touch DNA that was left behind on the snap button of the knife sheath. So many people,

you know, rightfully so, in my opinion, are wondering and questioning, okay, well, how do you murder four people in such a gruesome way where there's so much blood that there were reports that when first responders came on scene, they could smell the blood and the overwhelming scent that it had and not drip any blood and have a trail out to the car and not have any hidden in a seam or in an air vent or anything like that. What do you make of what we've heard with the DNA? Well, the number one thing I make of the statement that was made in this motion by Ann Taylor, and I say by Ann Taylor because the ball stops with her, right? The buck stops with her. Whenever anything goes out, no matter who authored it, she signed off on it. So I'm going to refer to the defense as Ann Taylor's position. So when that was written and came out, I found one thing very interesting. Nothing was discussed about DNA at 1122.

They were quick to say there's nothing in the car, there was nothing in the house, nothing in the apartment, nothing in the office. But did you notice they said nothing about other DNA of Brian Koberger that could have been at 1122? I did not notice that. I think if that was the case, I think they would have listed the four they listed and said, and no DNA at 1122. But they don't say that. So that was my first initial aha for me. Back to why wouldn't he have it at his apartment or anyplace else? Well, I would, I believe that nothing that was used in this crime ever made it back to the apartment, ever made it to the office and ever made it to his parents' home. The car. This is the part where, and I always say, I just like to stick to the facts known,

but there are certain facts that we just can't know right now, but we can make some logical possible conclusions for me based on my experience combined with the facts we do know. So in looking at this, I just don't believe that he got in that car in the bloody mess that a lot of people think. layer of clothing, which I believe to be a coverall type situation underneath having all black and two pairs of gloves and possible booties over his shoes. I think he disrobed all of that, put it in that plastic bag. Last thing to go with the gloves, tighten that up, making sure nothing else stood on anything, right? Then removed those booties, got those in the bag, and then ran to that car and took off. I think that might help explain. Now, we don't know that. I just want everybody to be clear. I'm not stating this as a fact.

I'm stating this as my hypothesis, just based on other crimes and the facts. No. Secondarily. We he has so much time unaccounted for. That he could have taken and hidden, buried all of those items. and buried all of those items. And he also had about six weeks to clean and clean and clean and clean. Again, do we have videotape of him on his hands and knees scrubbing? No. But it is a logical conclusion. It's something that I've seen in case after case after case. When you're trying to cover something, you clean. And so I hope that explains sort of a possible scenario that would explain why we don't know that there's no blood, right? You can have blood staining, but the DNA that would have been unavailable to retrieve due to cleaning products. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really interesting point. And I

just want to talk a little further on that because to your point, he have several weeks to clean and we know that when he was out front of his parents house prior to the arrest he was still cleaning still disposing of things so i don't think he would have waited that long to finally clean when he's finally at his parents house out of state it seems in my opinion and i'm not a professional at all but it seems that he is very meticulous and he is a very smart and careful person to where who knows where we would be if that touch dna never even matched on the sheath because it does seem as though he went to very great lengths and took a lot of care in how to get away with murder whether it was intended to be a singular murder or a quadruple murder because Because when you think about everything, too, he's turning the phone off,

which he shouldn't have turned it back on or airplane mode or whatever happened. But to your point, if he did conceal all of his clothing in a bag, that would certainly explain that. You mentioned the unaccounted time when he was off driving around, not only when he took the longer way back home but that following day after driving by the house and being in the area again when he was gone for hours and could have to your point buried burned through in a in the water all the weapon all of these things so it's pretty it's pretty interesting to me just as a lay person looking in it seems like how would there be no dna Surely there'd

be a drop or a trail. But to your point, if there has been cleaning solutions on it and things like that, you're not necessarily going to be able to lift all that. And he was a very careful and thoughtful person to where he probably did put in place measures to make sure that he wasn't going to have a trail of blood behind him or in his car because he studied this. He was a professional in that regard. I agree with you. And initially, I think all of the people with law enforcement experience, at least everyone I know and everyone I saw, all of us believed there would be something in that vehicle. there would be something in that vehicle. And when there was nothing found, it led me to believe that's because it really never got there to the degree of a man soaked in blood, at least from the torso up, right? I think a lot of people may not understand that

when you commit these stabbings, there would be blood all over him, his face, even in his eyes, just everywhere. But depending on his feet, not necessarily. You know, I picture him over top of them, them on the bed, we know, other than Zanna. I picture that we don't know what blood would have been on the floor for him to step in. We know we have one footprint that wasn't even visible. They had to use special techniques to draw that amino acid, right, amino transference to be able to draw that footprint out. And it goes back to my point that if you're laying there bleeding, it does take some time and that blood is going to go straight south.

So would his feet have been under the bed? No, you know, his feet would have been out or, you know, leaning over on top of. So to me, it made a lot of sense that we don't see a lot of bloody footprints. People make a lot out of that. But just having seen crime scenes, it's not exactly possibly how people are envisioning because a lot of the crime scenes that you see are after the person has bled out.

All the blood's gone, not the initial scene right when it happens. That's a great point. Now, quickly, that kind of has me thinking a little bit, and I don't want you to speculate too much. So if you're not comfortable answering, that's absolutely fine. Yeah, I don't want to. Fine. I do have one question.

We had talked about how he had the several weeks to clean, dispose of evidence, all of these things. The ID cards that were found in the glove, in the box at his parents' house, do you believe that those are related to the case? I remember when I first heard that, my first initial thought was maybe it's trophies and maybe that is something that ties to the victims, but maybe it's not. I don't know why else you would shove ID cards in a glove and then hide that in a box. But do you have any idea or any inclination as to what that could be?

Or is that just kind of a moot detail at this point? Well, at this point, we know that there was source information given to News Nation producer that those IDs that were in the glove, in the box, that at least one was related to 1122 King Road, not even to a victim, but to 1122 King Road. So in what way was that? Was that Dylan's? Was it Bethany's? Was it some other kind of ID? It's very unclear because whoever that source was didn't provide much information, at least as far as what it made to that broadcast, right? And so I definitely don't feel comfortable outside of the exact information that was, you know, portrayed or put forth. But I think it's important that people do understand that, what was really said, because it's grown wheels of its own. And it'll be interesting to see, of course, all this source information.

I want to see it in my hands, right? I comment on the network about what it means to the case if it's true. So certainly if he had anything connected to him in ID form to 1122 King, oh my gosh, that's a smoking ID like the sheet. But I want to see it in my hands. Which I it's interesting because as you bring up the source and I had another question here similar around the sources is they're saying that the defense is saying that Brian Koberger has no connection to any of these four victims. So does that mean that they're refuting that source information that went to People magazine and said that he had contacted one of these victims through social media? It is refuting that. And again, I think that this statement made.

think that this statement made um i'm surprised that they made this statement and i'm surprised because it also would refute 12 different times that according to the evidence that we have in terms of pings that he was actually in and around 11 22. To me, that is a connection. What is a connection if that's not a connection? It's very ambiguous how she says that. So I don't know whether she's trying to say, listen, there's zero connection or whether she means there was no connection before the 12 pings, or she means that they didn't really have a relationship. So there was, means that they didn't really have a relationship. So there was, it's very ambiguous what she said. And again, I think it was a bad thing to say because of all the speculation that resulted from that statement and the statements, and I think she says it twice, that the sheath was placed under Maddie Mogan. I thought that was a terrible thing to say because it made it seem like a police officer placed it

or an individual placed it. It should have been worded it was found because by her saying place gave rise to all the speculation that I think is unfounded and wrong. It's interesting you say that because I remember one of the first things that I heard, and I can't remember now that I'm thinking about it. I want to say Dr. Phil, but I think I'm completely wrong on that. But there was someone in the field who had said once that was released that they thought that because it did say placed that Brian purposefully did that almost as to leave a calling card and to leave something behind.

And then I think more and more people started to run with that as though. And then the narrative was he's trying to taunt people, prove he's smarter than them. All of these things. Are there other things you've seen kind of spin off from that statement? Or is that one of the ones you're referring to? Yeah, that's one of the so there's three, three thoughts, right, that law enforcement placed it there that a individual placed it there to frame Brian Koberger, or that Brian Koberger placed it there. Those are kind of the three thoughts going out there. Let me address what you just said, though.

I find that this is just, in my opinion, ludicrous. I think he sits in his cell every day and wishes he would not have accidentally had that either stuck in his pocket or in between, if he even had a belt, his belt in his person. But I, you know, we'll find out what he had on. But it dislodged. He did not affix it to something. And it came loose. And that, I agree with you, that's the reason this case is made.

That's the reason why we're at where we're at. He's a great, he did a great job with this case. Some people say, what do you mean he drove his own car? Well, look at the alternatives. Was he going to rent a car, steal a car, borrow a car? Those would all have direct third person witnesses that would have been able to report on him. It was smart for him to use his own car and to go at the hours of the night if he's going to do this crime, right? No crime can ever be perfect. Yes, he took his cell phone, but he did turn it off. And the defense will be able to make some hay about that. Of course, the prosecution will say, well, heck yeah, he turned it off because he was committing the crime. And the jurors will be able to use their common sense, I think, and piece it

all together. But no way do I believe he placed that there to taunt. I agree with you completely. And it's interesting because I'm in full agreeance with you i think he's stewing in his cell about this i think he's kicking himself basically like how could you be so stupid because everything else was so clean so to speak as far as he could have potentially gotten away with a quadruple murder which we of course don't know all of the evidence they have and what's going to come out in discovery but from what we do know that's the only tangible piece of evidence, aside from the pings, which, yes, are strong, but could, I guess, be not circumstantial. But, like, people could fight that, I guess, a bit.

But the sheath is the smoking gun, I guess you would call it, in this moment. And a lot of people, if you don't mind, a lot of people are still uncertain about what it is touch DNA means. So do you mind just kind of explaining quickly to the viewers what that means, what type of DNA that is, and how that occurs? Absolutely. And there's been so much made about really diminishing what touch DNA is. The reason I think that they were able to glean it from the snap is the friction used. So touch DNA is the DNA that is on your cells that are on your fingertips, and not only your dead skin cells and so on, but your perspirations that are on one's fingertips. all of that proved to provide a profile that could be identifiable to a person. And that's what happened. So this isn't just some, you know, drive by touching.

That friction would have been used. And, you know, luckily, there was enough DNA there to identify a profile. Furthermore, if you're looking at what all these conspiracy theorists are saying, there's only a couple options, right? If he didn't undo the snap. So the couple of options are that the person who committed this crime stole the sheath or somehow acquired the sheath. Maybe it was given to him or something, and he did the murder and left the sheath, right? Well, I think Brian Koberger would have let us

know if that was the case. And did the person also steal his car? Yeah, exactly. And plus, they have to steal the car, they have to steal the phone. So that's one. But it's out there, Annie. It's crazy. touched Brian Koberger. They even referred to the ticket that he got for a new seatbelt and the other ticket that he somehow touched. And then that somehow transferred to them. And then they touched the sheath. Let me tell you, no one touched that sheath in law enforcement without gloves. I know you're laughing. It tickles me. How extreme people will go to really come up with just fantasy and not look at, they call it Occam's razor. And that's what you do when you investigate. It's usually a pretty logical set of circumstances that lead to a conclusion. You don't have to have somebody touch somebody and then touch the sheath and then jump in there and then slip it under the body. That's just all out there. Why is it that you think people out there, especially in the YouTube community, are so hell bent on creating these conspiracy theories? And I know a lot of it is clicks and views, and that's the easy answer for a lot of people.

My feeling had been in the beginning, it's because of the gag order. They're just searching for information. So they're trying to extract it and like pulling what is I don't even know the expression like water from a rock or whatever that expression is. But why do you think everybody is so hell bent on all of these conspiracies and trying to paint these complex versions of events? because I think it's so unusual. As an example, the last case to really blow up in the media, if you will, was, of course, Gabby Petito and Brian Laundrie. And I can't think of but maybe a handful, and there were a handful, that were the Brian Laundrie apologists, you know, even creating,

oh, he's alive and on a boat and, you know, he wasn't involved and all these crazy things, right? But that's a handful, not what we're seeing here where it's really proliferated. And as sad as it is, I really do think it comes down to money. I think it comes down to the fact that the only way that they can have content and create something that people will watch is to come up with sensational views. And that's what they're doing. That's how I see it. I just can't see any other logical conclusion. And I'm not talking about those that are analyzing the evidence that everybody agrees on. In other words, saying, yeah, but touch DNA, you know, providing some sort of background as to why they don't believe in that. I'm talking about these other conspiracies, Annie.

So unfortunately, I think it comes down to the all-American dollar. And unfortunately, I think it comes down to the all-American dollar. That is a very interesting take because I do agree on everything you said, but how you just phrased it, how they need to have this sensationalized content in order to draw in the viewers and that they won't get the viewers by going by the facts or just reporting on a case. And when I think about the creators who come to mind who mind who I know who have put videos out like that, it does feel very much like that. It's the people who are always live streaming and only live streaming, not talking about cases in hindsight and recapping them. It's like it's almost like they need to be the first one on the scene reporting the breaking news. And I get it. All of us in this world, true crime community, there is a bit of that to an extent. And I think that's why we're seeing so much that is falsified and fake. And people run with it. Whereas normally, maybe they might be a little bit more cautious and want to do a little due diligence on the information.

Now, as you said, it's okay, let's just be first to the finish line. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. At least everybody will be tuning in and then we can sort it out later. That is the feel I get. And it's disappointing. And this is why I think it's so disappointing in my mind. Four reasons. Zanet, Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie.

It's such a disservice to their memory and mostly to their families who are on my platform, who are on multiple platforms that are seeing this. It's got to be so heart-wrenching for them. I agree with you. I can't even imagine. And I think it's twofold. I think the families in these cases, of course, it's devastating to them. And it just feels disgusting, disturbing, invasive, especially, I'm sure you're familiar with what's the newest thing cycling out there right now with the autopsy photos with gannon stout and so i think there's that element with the family who they're of course the primary importance in all this but then i think of people like yourself and people like even brian enton just reporting on certain things like that who that's your career and your profession. So when

us YouTubers come in or non-experts not schooled in this, things like that start getting a little bit careless and wild. I can imagine how frustrating that is for you as well, given that you're a professional in this field, you have the experience to back it up. And then you just have these people kind of rolling in myself included, to be quite honest, doing, you know, talking about things and just not having much weight behind what they're saying. who are really trying to get to the bottom of the story from the facts, that are keeping focused on that, and that refuse to take these sensational takes and spin them up, hoping they can get drama and, you know, raise the excitement level on something. That's the difference. And I think it's a part of really reporting and it's, you know, the YouTube community, social media community is so important now in true crime. I really believe law enforcement needs to hire some of the best sleuths and individuals who are so good at getting to the bottom of a lot

of the facts in law enforcement now, because it's not going away and it can be a positive as opposed to a negative. But I just hope, as you mentioned, you know, as an example, the Gannon stock, um, stash, the autopsy photos, subscribers who are helping elevate that platform just need to unsubscribe. It's, it's mind boggling to me after something like that, that anyone would ever want to go to the individuals involved in any of that, anybody who's been involved in that, and seek information from them. That's just my opinion. It's true. And that opinion carries a lot of weight. One of the first things I remember ever hearing when I first started on YouTube a couple of years ago, I was new to the whole world of content creating and the true crime community.

And I remember it was actually a hater and a troll who didn't like the content I was putting out. And I remember seeing a comment they said, and they said, the most impactful thing you can do as a viewer is stop viewing, stop subscribing. stop subscribing. And unfortunately, there's still what's known as hate views where people hate these creators, don't agree with them, and they'll watch just out of curiosity of what they're spinning today and what's going on because they're more involved in the drama of it. But it really is true. Coming from myself as a creator to anybody listening, if you don't support somebody, myself included, the best thing you can do is not give them any views. Don't subscribe because even if there are high amounts of viewers or high amounts of subscribers, yours still does make a difference. It still kicks in the algorithm.

It still helps the channel. So that really is the best thing you could do if there is anybody out there who you don't agree with. Right. Absolutely. Well said. Thank you. Now, based on your experience, what do you think that we can expect going forward with all of this? What do you think with the prosecution, the defense? What can we expect the next few months to look like? Well, I'm very interested to see if there's going to be some sort of alibi that is tendered by the prosecution. They have, by the way, just to be clear, they have no necessity. Nothing under law says that

they have to. It's nothing like that. The burden is on the prosecution and the prosecution alone to prove Brian Koberger is guilty. It's solely on them. But they have said, you know, they want time. They are getting time. And the reason that this clock is starting and that they've been given a deadline is because the prosecution, once it's tendered, they need time to look at it. You know, is this factual? They're going to have to investigate it. They're going to have to see if there's any truth in it. I'll be very interested to see if anything is tendered at that point. I think this train, Dunn left the station. He's been sitting for almost seven months

in a jail without his freedom. It would be odd for me to all of a sudden they have an out. I mean, the death penalty is on the table. I would have thought if they had one, it would have been a long time ago. But I still am interested in that. I think we're going to see a whole succession of suppression hearings, suppression motions where they're going to say this was acquired illegally. This was acquired illegally. You know, this there's an issue with this and that.

I would fully expect that that's what's going to happen. I also believe the defense will ask for continuance. I don't think there's any way this is happening in October. And I think this will be continued months and months from now. happen in October. I personally wouldn't be shocked either. I mean, we've seen so many high profile cases that it's just delay after delay after delay. And I would imagine, too, given the amount of discovery they're going to have to sift through, they certainly probably will need more time. With that, both the prosecution and the defense have no objection to the home on King Road being demolished before the trial. but it does seem as of late from things I've been seeing that some of the victim's families do have an objection and they want it available for the trial whenever that happens just in case. I don't know if that's for a jury walkthrough,

if that's for any other reason. So can you explain a little bit in your opinion and given your experience why they aren't able to come to a compromise and wait on the demolition or what those reasons may be? Well, actually, interestingly, right before I came on with you, I saw where the University of Idaho is not going to demolish for right now. Oh. Literally just happened. going to demolish for right now. It literally just happened. They said they're waiting, I think, until October to make a decision. And I think, you know, hopefully your viewers, I know the people on Twitter that are in my community, I know that they have signed petitions, that they've been loud and strong, and I think many channels

have. And I'm so glad that the University of Idaho has made this decision with good consciousness, you know, following their conscience, that is really no reason, no rush, compared to what's in the balance of tearing that down. Now, we also know, right, that the defense and prosecution don't seem to have an issue with it. I get why the defense doesn't have a problem, because that's going to be a bloody hot mess in there. And they don't want the visualization for jurors to walk through and sort of envision everything that happened. And remember, there will be crime scene reconstructionists on both sides. We already know the defense had theirs in there the day after the arrest. And he's very high profile, and he's very good. And he's going to explain what he thinks happened in the murder. And then

the prosecution is going to say what they think happens from footprints, from blood spatter, from where the blood is pooling, all those things. Right. But to me, the reason that the house is so important, even though they're going to have all these visuals, it's all about sound. It's all about what did those footsteps sound like when you're in Dylan Mortensen's position? When she creaked open that door, what could she really see? When you're outside, we know about the tape that was the ring camera. Can they really hear? Are those walls paper thin that if the jurors are chatting inside, can the jurors outside hear that? Pick that up. All of these things, I think, are so crucial for a jury walkthrough. And recall, Annie, we saw this on the Alec Murdoch case and their Stouch case and the Vallow case.

And the Vallow case, I mean, these cases are so important. And that digital forensics and walking through to understand it all, I think is just important for a juror. That's a very interesting point. And this is why you're the expert, because a lot of those things you just mentioned, I never even thought of either, where it's, to your point, seeing the door creak open, thought of either where it's to your point seeing the door creak open hearing the footsteps coming up and down the stairs seeing Xana's vantage point coming out of the bedroom or being in the hallway we can envision it based on the 3D animations that are out there or even the home listing pictures and mock-ups and things like that but you you're right, when you're in it and you can hear it, the sound is so different than just the visuals. That's a very interesting point.

Yeah, and I think that anybody can go watch a movie, right? Anybody can go look at the video of a house they want to buy. And boy, when you open the house door of a house you're looking at to buy, I think that's a good reference point since probably many of your viewers have done this. They're going to rent or buy wherever they live. And you walk in, it's so different. You're like, oh, wow, the staircase is really close to the front door. Or, oh, gosh, there's an echo. I can really hear upstairs or, you know, all those things. So I'm glad they're going to keep it up at least through October. And and hopefully it stays up so jurors can walk through. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I need to find one of those petitions. I

know we had one in one of my old videos, but I'll add anything new to in the description and the show notes on this one. So the next court date for a motion hearing is on August 18th. So will the defense have to file anything again if they are disputing the grand jury indictment before this hearing? Or would this need to be done before the extension period ends on August 11th? No, they've stated that this is a deadline. So they're going to have to. But recall, a lot of it depends on these transcripts. The judge is going to be very lenient in making sure that the defense has time enough to view these transcripts. So I guess I'm going to back off what I just said and say the judge is going to be reasonable and he's going to err

on the side of the defense having plenty of time to review the grand jury information because that's going to be at the crux of what the grand jury or what the defense wants to prove. And they're going to want to prove that either probable cause wasn't reached or that there was some malfeasance in the presentation of the probable cause. But no matter, just say, just say, and I don't think this will happen, that the true bill that was reached by that grand jury is somehow nullified because of something defense finds. It doesn't mean the case goes away. It just means another grand jury will take a look at everything

and render a decision. So just to be clear, if there's a problem with the probable cause, it's not like the case is going away. Okay, great. Thank you for clarifying. Well, I have so many other questions here for you, specifically on the Delphi case, but I feel like maybe, I know we're running a little bit over right now, so I feel like maybe we should save that for another day if you're willing to jump back on here. But I love talking to you and love picking your brain. So if you are willing, I would love to have you on again.

Yeah, absolutely. And again, you know, I don't do a lot of YouTube. I am trying to because of all of this bad information, I'm so glad you reached out. I think it's very important to sort of get out of, you know, get things back on track. I'm trying to do it on my Twitter too, to just get it back on track. Let's revisit the facts we know and dispel what we don't. And so I would love to talk Delphi with you. Okay, great. So much going on on Delphi. So much. Maybe that's something we can do too, like a reoccurring where here's the facts,

here's the fiction, let's talk about it. Kind of what's real, what's not. Okay, good. Well, thank you so much. Can you tell everybody where to follow you? I know you are super huge on Twitter and so active over there, but let everybody know again, what platforms can they find you on? Where can they follow up with you until the next time you're on here? Yeah, I'm it's really easy. I'm at Coffin Daffer FBI. I only use the Twitter platform. You might see that I have a TikTok account and I think a Facebook account because I had an intern, a college intern. And I said, listen, I think I want to start something like this. And she got it started. And then she graduated from the University of Indiana and went away.

And I never did anything after she went away. So that's why I say I'm not on TikTok because I'm really not. But I know I have an account. But in any event, it's at Twitter. Perfect. I focus. I'm a mono visual thing. I try to do one thing and I try to do it, you know, decently well.

So that's where I'm focused. Okay, great. And then everybody, you'll be able to find her on YouTube more too, whether it's here or News Nation and all of the other channels as well. Well, thank you again so much for joining, Jennifer. I really appreciate it.

It's been so insightful and just fantastic talking with you. So thank you. Thank you so much. And you have a great evening. You too. Thank you. All right, guys. Well, you. Thank you so much. And you have a great evening. You too. Thank you. All right, guys. Well, you just heard it broken down from Jennifer herself, who is like an expert in all of the things. So I hope that this was able to help explain some of the lingering questions out there, the lingering theories, and give you a better idea of where we're at as everything is

continuing to, again, merge, feels like like daily in this case so a special thank you to Jennifer again today for joining and thank you guys so much for listening to today's bonus episode of Serialistly make sure before you head out if you don't want to miss any other little special surprise bonus episode nuggets that I dropped for you make sure that you are following the podcast on whatever podcast platform app you use to listen. And if you are listening on Apple Podcasts, please take a quick moment to rate and review the podcast. It would mean so much and it's such an easy way to support the channel to help get it going in the algorithm and push the podcast out to more people. All right, thanks so much again for tuning in, guys, and I will be

talking with you very soon. Actually, I have a brand spanking new case that I am dropping Monday for you that is wild. Very similar of the heiress who, the millionaire heiress who wanted to kill her mom to get all the money. It's similar in that way, but kind of not, but like diabolical and unhinged 100%. So make sure you check back Monday for that episode. All right, guys, thanks again and have an amazing rest of your week. Please stay safe. Bye. Thank you.