Sex, Lies & DM Slides - S1E6: Gizzi & Sydney | Munroe Bergdorf

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

Model and trans-rights activist Munroe Bergdorf chats to Gizzi and Sydney about the challenges and threats that trans people face on dating apps. She also explains the fascinating differences between male and female orgasms.  Sex, Lies and DM Slides is a Spotify Original. This series was produced by Heydon Prowse Productions, edited by Podmonkey with music by Free Seed Films. For Spotify, the executive producers are Rachel Simpson and Alexandra Adey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name's Gizzy Erskine. And I'm Sydney Lima, and this is Sex, Lies and DM Slides. Where we invite our celebrity friends to dive deep into their DM boxes to see what terrors lurk within. We'll be chatting about online trolls, online dating, perverted proposals and why everyone's so weird on social media. Sex and Lies and DM Slides. This podcast contains adult content, graphic

details of our sex lives and the filthy contents of our inboxes. You have been warned. Hi, I'm Sydney Loomer. Hello, I'm Gizzy Erskine and welcome to our Spotify original podcast Sex, Lies and DM Slides, where we chat about sex and love in the age of social media. Who do we have on today, Gizzy? On today's podcast podcast we've got monroe bergdorf who is very slowly becoming my friend i've been desperately trying to be trying i mean i think we're mates now we speak a lot but just to introduce her properly she is probably one of the most important poignant british figures in the lgbtq plus issues um also for Black Lives Matter. I've been following her with sort of bated breath at everything she says. I'm finding

her. or have out more ways to customize your casino page with our new favorite and recently played games tabs. And to top it all off, quick and secure withdrawals. Get more everything with FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Visit connectsontario.ca. I'm going back to university for $0 delivery fee, up to 5% off orders and 5% Uber cash back on rides. Not whatever you think university is for.

Get Uber One for students. With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. Discussion points at the moment, so, so fascinating. I'm actually really embarrassed myself the other day. You know, we went on holiday, Sid.

Yeah. I invited her and she said no. So me and Sidney have just been away with a group of girls and we were like we had one spare place and I was like you know he'd be cool to come along Monroe she's my new best mate now and Boyd yeah Boyd completely no she was very sweet she was busy just got a new cat and a new dog so that's that was how I got reggie'd I first heard of Monroe when she used to do these nights with a girl I knew from Camden called Pussy Palace. It was all about kind of creating like a safe space for women

and the LGBTQ plus community. And then she had the L'Oreal debacle. Yeah, which really came to light. Which really came to light. So she got fired originally from L'Oreal after getting into a bit of a fight with Piers Morgan. She's actually just recently rejoined L'Oreal. I think she's head of the diversity board there now.

But that was brilliant because she's tackling things so face on and actually just calling people out. And it just goes to show the power. I mean, we look at social media in a really devastating way, but actually here's a position where someone's voice has done something for the better, you know, and really changed things. She's also got a book coming out called Transitional where she draws on her own experience

and theory from key experts, change makers and activists to reveal how deeply ingrained transitioning is in human experience. She kind of talks a bit about that in our interview. It's great how she sort of looks at transitioning as it doesn't have to fit into the LGBT. Yeah. It's like she said,

everyone has a journey of transitioning through life. I thought it was very, very interesting. She's got such a great astute way, an observational way of looking at things. Anyway, so what have you been up to this week? I may have been on holiday, Giz. What were you doing on holiday? Okay, so I may have like met this guy. So basically I'm still broken hearted.

And then I met this guy. So I met this guy, basically i'm still brokenhearted and then i met this guy so i met this guy had sex with him and then basically when we were on holiday together yeah i got a bit pissed and like decided that'd be really funny if i went on holiday with him as well after we when we got back so i thought it'd be like some sort of like sex holiday kind of thing. Was it a sex holiday? It wasn't a sex holiday because I got cystitis. Because of you having sex? Oh, see. I know.

To be honest with you, my current boyfriend, I had, I went away with him after two and a half weeks as well and got the most extreme cystitis and thrush. What the fuck?

How are you going to piss after sex? in a hot country? Is that, yeah, because I remember a very good friend of ours daisy low in fact told me she's like gizzy it's everyone knows this you just have to go for a massive piss i didn't know this and then he was like he said to me like kind of like frustratedly

like do you not piss after sex and i was like uh yeah of course and then i was like i pretended that that's what i always do but i've just forgotten recently but i didn't know that was a thing why did you never tell me you're. But I didn't know that was a thing. Why did you never tell me? You're my advisor. I didn't know that until recently as well. So anyway, I'm still experimenting. Oh God, it's awful. It's so bad.

And then I was like trying to get all this like medication. I was like running around like pharmacies. Rather than cathedrals. Rather than cathedrals. Yeah. So that happened. What have you been up to? what have i been up to uh no cystitis for me this week i've been well we were going to go to club verboten this weekend

me and sid so we've actually interviewed carl from the club it's fetish club it's a really underground fetish club the sort of in hackney It's a bit cooler and a bit more considered than the rest. But it's a proper fetish stroke sex club. He did say originally, though, that we weren't invited. No. And then I've got a very good friend, Emily Malice and Kate Moross. They were going and I was like, right, I'm coming too. And I sent him a message.

I was like, can I come? He was like, yeah, the tickets are online. I was like, mate. Wait, did you message him? Yeah, I did. Tell me you messaged him. Oh, no, I forgot to tell you. Anyway, then I went home and told told because we were going to go and do

this we decided on friday night that we were going to go tomorrow and i was like do i not need some time to get my leathers yeah get my chaps on slide into my rubber cat suit no so anyway went home told my key my boyfriend that me and sydney were going to go and it would be good let's all go together and he literally all the blood fell out of his Sydney were going to go and it would be good. Let's all go together. And he literally all the blood fell out of his body. He would have thought it would have gone to a certain area. It didn't. He was like, had the biggest panic attack I've ever seen within about five minutes.

This is a very sexy guy, by the way. And then suddenly he was like, what happens? Are you going to have sex with someone? Are you and Sydney going to have sex? Do I have to have sex with Sydney? What am I going to do? It was just this like sudden realisation of all of these things. I was like, we could just go and observe.

There is no... I think you have to get involved though, don't you? I mean, we probably need to. We'll just have a little like corner wank. Imagine us trying like, like wearing some like really tight rubber outfit trying to have a wank. Trying to access our clear. Hold on.

Where's the talcum powder? Oh God, the chafes. You just know it's not going to work out for us. I want to get some latex. I used to go to fetish clubs the whole time. You know, my first modelling job was actually at Torture Garden. You always keep saying you're going to take me and you don't. You lied to me.

I tried to take you this weekend. It was a bit intense. It was a bit too quick a turnaround. We need to make sure that there's because I mean we're coming out of lockdown and well you know what's interesting would be like distanced sex club. We were talking about this these socially distanced sex clubs and also what does that look like now? The new normal in sex club. What is that that i don't know i'm imagining it's just everyone with two meter distance yeah like what's kind of like it must just be like an observie thing yeah like massive dildos two meter dildos anyway so look out for that interview with carl verboten owner of theboten, which we still can't get into, in a few episodes' time.

So without further ado, and I should just pre-warn you all that we did record this in lockdown, so the sound might not be quite up to its usual spec, but I would love to introduce the heroic Munro Bergdorf. Whoop, whoop! Sex and lies and DM slides. Hi, Monroe. Hi, how are you doing?

We're good, we're good. Thank you so much for coming on our podcast. Thank you for having me. So how's your lockdown going? Lockdown's interesting. I had a little bit of like a moment and then I pulled myself out of it and I'm writing my first book at the moment so I'm trying to stay productive but it's a good time

to do a book isn't it lockdown well it isn't it isn't because there's so much to think about and the sheer insanity of the situation makes it really hard to focus on what you're doing so I've got I've got lots of time but I don't have a lot of brain space I fully understand I've got I'm on delivery for the end of this week and I am doing everything I mean I've never tidied the house I never do any of this stuff I'm really good at everything but finishing the book procrastination this is like procrastination station this is it's really difficult I've done two chapters and I've got like another five to go so are we allowed to ask what it's about uh it's mainly about journeys

and how in one way or another we all transition so whether or not that's adolescence to adulthood or sexuality or gender or your career relationships your identity um everything's a journey and you know a transition is ultimately going from a to b from where you are to where you want to go so just mapping that out and looking at how society has changed um with regards to different attitudes to you know sex or people's gender or um even you know how people look it's all um in flux and constantly evolving as we're um sex lies dm slides have you been get uh have you been having sex in the lockdown how is it for your sex life oh my god no i haven't i mean so good some of my friends are breaking lockdown and to like hook up the horny devils.

I've heard this. I've had loads of friends. Like my friend just broke up with her boyfriend of seven years and she's literally been having more sex than I think anyone ever. People have been just going round to this house. I'm shocked. I'm shocked. I'm sorry, but ain't nobody worth it.

I'm not about to try and put myself into hospital for like, you know, a one night stand. Or let this whole thing carry on. I was about to say bag on and then realise it's a bad choice of words. Yeah, no, I mean, I was talking to three of my friends last night and they were like, oh, yeah, I'm seeing a boy.

And I was like, honey, stop it. I think everyone's so lonely, aren't they? They're just up for it. We're all lonely. I don't know. Can I be really nosy and ask what your relationship status is? I'm single. Very, very single.

I'm talking to a couple of people, but, like, not really anyone on what's your it's it's still very new what's your sexual preference uh i don't really have one um i i sometimes say that i'm pansexual to try and like you know help people understand my sexuality but really just fluid i really don't care too much I think that sex with women sex with non-binary people sex with men are all very different and um I appreciate each and everyone so if I find you attractive then I find you attractive what is the difference I mean like men or women better in bed like it's just different um I don't know I I kind of feel like when I have sex with

men it's more of a for me personally and I'm speaking personally because we all have different responses or desires or you know requirements and um for me personally when I have sex with men it's just more of a physical thing because I mean I don't know I don't want to have a relationship with a man just not for me personally it's just I just feel like there's just so much that is projected onto me as a transgender woman to be this you know hyper feminine submissive role and I'm I'm very very demanding very very sure of myself and I feel like a lot of men not all men but some men most men find it intimidating and I just don't have the time to coach them out of that so personally I prefer to have relationships with women sex with men or you know everything

to do with everybody I don't really mind do Do you find it quite strange, like, as a woman, to kind of see this assumed kind of identity on how you're meant to be? Yeah, for sure. I do feel like, you know, when you're trans, you're expected to be extra feminine to confirm the fact that you're actually a woman. And I've just found, I've always found that so perplexing because there's cisgender women who aren't super feminine, but they're no less of a woman and I've just find I've always found that so perplexing because there's cisgender

women who aren't super feminine but they're no less of a woman there's cisgender women who can't give birth but they're no less of a woman um there's you know men who have periods doesn't make them less of a man it means that you know they're a man who has a period and they're transgender it's I don't know I kind of feel like we need to get out of this rut of thinking that people are the sole factor of their bodily functions it's yeah it's really redundant and I I really feel like it's stopping us from seeing each other as equals you're in quite a unique position in that you've had sex in a male body and then as a woman can you enlighten us to the both of those experiences yeah for me I mean it's always been

a bit of a dual experience because even though my body looked masculine I've never felt that so on the inside I've always been me but on the outside I think sex is so weird because it's as much a project like another person projecting their desires onto you as it is you being you so like people have like I don't know the guys that I was having sex with were under the impression that they were having like gay sex but for me it was never gay sex because I was never a man yeah but I look like one so it's kind of like a really I think trans people have a really unique insight into sex because we've seen so many different people, especially if you're pan, having an insight into how men react to women

or how women react to men. I don't know. It's really interesting to me. I think one of the most interesting things is having both sets of hormones in my body and feeling a male sex drive um in inverted commas or a female sex drive um say testosterone or estrogen they're very very different and testosterone affects you into in a way that you know you you can't stop thinking about sex so if

you have a lot of testosterone in your body or high testosterone levels and you're gonna be much more I don't know not necessarily promiscuous but horny and um I don't know Eastrom's much more I don't know my sex drive now is you know if if you can turn me on then I'm as sexual as you like but I don't feel like I have to have it and I'm so glad to kind of get rid of that because that can get you into trouble and it can it can make you lower your standards so I feel like now I'm really in a position where sex is something valuable to me and I only have sex with people that I actually want to have sex with not just to kind of you know scratch an itch um how were your sexual experiences changing as you were

transitioning were you did it affect your sexual preference or how yeah um at the beginning um I think that it was very much you know me being fetishized by men I was very much, you know, me being fetishized by men. I was very much only sleeping with men at that point in early in my transition. And I guess I kind of sought validation in being sexually attractive. I felt like, oh, they find me sexually attractive. So that must mean that I look like a woman because they find women attractive. And, you know, I don't really think that that's healthy to base your identity on the sexual needs or wants of somebody else regardless of what gender they are but I think that that's you know something that all girls go through especially young women are taught in this society

that their sexuality is an important component of who they are and I don't feel like men are I feel like men are encouraged to have sex and encouraged to be promiscuous encouraged to um you know put it about but women are just encouraged to be desirable but as soon as you overstep the line and actually enjoy sex then it becomes you know slut shamey so um I don't know yeah at the beginning I felt like how people saw me sexually was much more important than how I feel it is now now I don't think that that's anything to do with my identity it's just how people like project onto you you know what was your very first sexual experience and then how how was sort of the emotional transition into the transition if that makes sense my very first

sexual experience what my when I lost my virginity oh my god it wasn't good is it ever ever? I don't know. It was actually really not traumatizing, just a little concerning. I kind of went in at the deep end. What do you mean? Oh, God. I had sex with a guy that was much older than me. And I was very young. And really, I hear that this is like quite common in the LGBTQ community because we're so heavily sexualized from an early age with regards to bullying regards to how people see us you know when we come out as gay there's so many questions that come out with that or if we come out as queer or whatever, not straight or trans or whatever. There's so many questions that come with that. And people instantly assume that you have all of the answers to that. So we just have sex projected onto us, which makes us probably have

sex earlier. And I don't know, my first, the first time that I had sex, was just it wasn't it wasn't fun I felt like I was I just had to do it because I was queer and this is what queer people do and the guy was much older as I said and he used poppers on me and I had no idea what poppers were and for that to be like my first go at having sex like your head spinning yeah and not really be coherent that that was really quite um god yeah not not great really oh so how how young were you because i mean i i like lost my virginity at 13 which i still have a lot of resentment about kind of thing and it wasn't yeah and it was similarly like with someone that was kind of older and i kind of looked back on it in a uh kind of with with resentment kind of thing so how old were you in that in that i was 15 15 i was 15 um i don't so much look back at it it was resentment

with um too much because i mean if if we're going to be real he was probably a paedophile and that was statutory rape and I would definitely not encourage anyone that's younger and listening to this podcast to you know if someone comes on to you and they're older then and you have told them that you're younger do not have sex with them because that is not someone that you should be trusting with your time your safety or your body so yeah I do have resentment to how sex was projected onto me from such a young age um I came out when I was 14 and I was relentlessly bullied in high school to the point where I just felt like a sexual deviant when I was 14 and I hadn't even had sex. Did you come out as gay first or did you come out?

I came out as gay first. Yeah. I still refer to myself as gay because I mainly sleep with women, but I don't know. I just like, whatever. Tell us about orgasms. How, because you've had the privilege to come through a penis and... Okay. So like a male orgasm, I would say, before I transitioned was just very much, I don't know,

I feel like it's a buildup of energy and then just one big release. And I feel like women's sexual energy or um you know coming ultimately is i don't know you can just keep going i can't can't you really no but sydney's only 27 i'm really it's really hard to make me calm but sid you wait till your 30s wait till your 30s can you make yourself you're 30. Can you make yourself calm? Yeah, quite easy. Can you make yourself calm?

If I watch porn. Well then. God, I hit 30 and I like was just this multiple orgasm machine. I think, yeah, I don't know. Just like it's, men are just like programmed like bodily and mentally to just you know spread their seed aren't they and it's like coming is you just it just all comes out yeah and then women's sex drives are very different and it's um there's not necessarily that just one big release it's you know a build-up of energy and you can keep going some people can

do you think one orgasm is way more in the head than the other like so i feel like with a female like as my experience of an orgasm is it's kind of it's completely be shifted with your mentality that you could be about to come and then you could completely change it and then you could lose it basically is a men's orgasm a lot more kind of on a direct path, I guess? I don't know. I think it really does depend person to person. But I think that there's much more of like, I think that you need to feel comfortable with that person, don't you? And when you're having sex with someone, you know, if someone does something that is going to, you know, kill your vibe, then of course, that's going to affect how your,

how your body physically reacts to that. So with a guy, it could be that he goes soft or with a woman, it could just be that, you know, she just doesn't want, you know, yeah. It gets distracted or doesn't want a penis in her. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, if someone puts puts you off then they put you off i don't know that's gender-based it's hard to come back from that oh yeah it is so obviously we discuss opening up dms and uh can we open up your dms that sounds very strange yeah my dms are like bone dry at the moment but um apart

from a couple of people that i'm speaking to but um i do get a lot of financial domination um requests of guys that say oh men are trash please me pay you. Please let me give you money. I don't take their money. I get them to donate to my charities. What do they want in return? Is there like a... They don't want anything. I think they just like to feel worthless.

I'm not about to give them anything. I think there's some men that get off on being taken advantage of financially I'm not I don't get it I'm not gonna lie I've been talking about I've been banging on about this for so long now but I had a financial slave before and he approached me through Facebook DMs and uh I didn't get him to donate to my charity unfortunately it was the charity of myself um but yeah it was very strange why not it was like some people I was talking to my charity unfortunately it was the charity of myself um but yeah it was very strange why not it was like some people i was talking to my flatmate about it and he was just like i don't

get it like why do these people want to give you money for doing absolutely nothing and yeah it's weird a weird mentality isn't it yeah but like i don't know i'm just like well i'm not gonna question it you know if someone wants to give me like 200 pounds or like donate to my charity, I don't see any problem with that ultimately. Why not? Prime Big Deal Days is coming October 8th and 9th with exclusive savings just for Prime members. Involuntary deal squeals can happen. Like the deal on new running shoes squeal. The deal on a new blender squeal,

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learn more at sunnybrook.ca special how do they approach it what do they kind of messages do they send you what's yeah how do they it's very much like the same kind of language as you know sex slaves of like oh how can i serve you queen or like you know a pathetic man like me please let me give you money and all that kind of stuff and i'm just like okay so you've replied you've replied to them and you've said you've asked them to put money yeah donate to my chosen charity do they keep messaging you or is it kind of left at that i don't really get into it i'm not really you know i'm not really looking for a cash like god i think let's see what happens by the end of corona

then we might all be up for that have you ever had any anything like really uncool and abusive i do get a lot of abuse on instagram for sure not. Not so much at the moment, but whenever I'm in the news or whenever I'm on television, I think it's a recurring theme with any minority group, whether or not that's, you know, a woman or especially black women. similar stories of abuse and if you're speaking about issues such as transphobia or gay rights or racial equality then you're going to get a lot of pushback from the people that those oppressive systems benefit so if you're talking about feminism you're going to get a lot of pushback from misogynist men if you're talking about black race you're gonna get um the white supremacists coming after you so um i do think that you know there's it just comes with the job unfortunately and we can't speak about these things without getting pushed back from the people that want them to exist have you ever been pushed into position that you've found like having to call the police

or anything like that or yeah yeah I had death threats at one point and people saying that they knew where I lived and they were going to beat me up and I'm just I don't know like my my friend got um threatened with um acid the other day oh my god that's awful yeah so she was really shook up about that and it And it's similar kind of things to that, really, that can make you feel really unsafe. And I'm super paranoid about my safety these days anyway. I don't take any chances. I don't get public transport. I don't live in places that I'm living in a house at the moment.

And I freaked out when I moved into my friend's house for a bit because it's the first time in so many years that um there's not you know multiple doors between me and the bedroom um so it's it's really difficult and unfortunately at the beginning of my transition I was raped um in my own bedroom he broke into my house and um raped me in my bedroom and um ever since then I've just been super aware of the fact that this these kind of things happen all the time to all kinds of women so um you know it's really important that kind of trauma I mean you know the real reality of having to live with that and having to have that trauma it sucks but I don't know I'm really reassured by how many people especially how many women have come forward um you know in

the wake of um or in the in the reign of me too or times up you know um being sexually assaulted is no longer like a dirty secret that women need to take with them to the grave, that we can speak about it and be empowered. And it happens to a lot of women. And I think one of the things that I really struggled with when it happened to me was the loneliness that I felt with that. And I felt like I had somehow brought it on myself because I had a one night stand with this guy. And I thought, oh, God, what if I let him on? And did I deserve this? And, you know, he attached a lot of his reasoning for it

because I bumped into him, even though the police couldn't find him, I somehow managed to find him myself. He said, oh, well, you know, that's what girls like you get. Fucking hell. Did you go to the police yeah yeah yeah but you know police are just not very good with um sexual attacks um the the rates of um prosecutions is so low yeah um especially if even if you if even if the person gets found, the likelihood that they'll be prosecuted or convicted is low because DNA is never reliable.

Even though he was all in my bedroom, they couldn't find his DNA, which was ridiculous. So those kind of situations happen all the time, unfortunately. And you just said you found him where the police didn't, which is... Well, yeah, I found him in Tesco. What? Yeah, he was like, I was literally buying butter and he was next to me. Oh, my God.

And I was just like, oh, my God. Yeah, he threatened to beat me up on the spot. No. And then I never saw him again. And then actually, no, he turned up at my work. And he was on CCTV, so they managed to get his face. And they even put posters all over trying to find him. And they never found him.

So, I mean, there is no doubt that everything you've gone through has been impactful on your mental health. But this is it like I want people to realize that the bad stuff that you go through can be used as a positive and my positive is like you know speaking about it to make other people feel less alone and it makes me feel less alone too so do you feel like you have a positive or negative relationship with social media and how it affects your mental health I think I have a complicated relationship with social media and I think that most people do I think it's really a case of monitoring your own mental health and not you

know um not self-feeding you know the not spir not spiraling. And, you know, if you feel bad, then following accounts and make you feel worse. I think it's really about making sure that the people that you follow make you feel empowered or educate you or in some way have a positive impact on your life. Do you think anyone following you, because you're so kind of stunning and glam, do you think anyone following you might feel insufficient? Oh thank you. I hope not. I think that there's more than one way to be stunning and glam and I don't know I'm just me and I'm I fully understand the pressures on society on people um from um you know beauty standards to being um as productive as you can be and um the pressures that come with being a young woman especially a young trans woman I look how I want to look I but I I'm always pushing the reminder that there's no one way to look and I still still get, you know, people calling me a man every day,

people telling me that I'm ugly all the time. So, I mean, I'm still ugly to somebody. So you can't please everybody. I don't feel like you should, you know, if you, if you look a certain way, I don't feel like you should apologize for it. But I feel if you are, if you're encouraging people to look like you, then that's a problem. Because I feel like you should be encouraging people to look like them and look like how they want to look.

Do you feel like that? Because you've got a banging body. I mean, you really, really do. Oh, my God, I really don't. Oh, I really disagree um do you think that there's a lot of pressure to have a certain physique for trans people as well I mean we're all very good at posing in photos all of us I mean I've seen you Gizzy we're all very good at posing in photos and how somebody poses is not going to be how someone sat slumped on the sofa you know we only post our good photos most of us I'm not going to go and you know pick the worst photo out of my camera roll and post that because it doesn't make me

feel good and I ultimately want to feel good so I do feel that there's a pressure on trans women especially to be you know super super surgeried and um ultimately I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing in itself if you want to have surgery then that's absolutely fine whether or not you're cis or trans but if you're pushing the notion that a trans woman should be surge um have surgery or a trans woman should have surgery, or a trans woman should have long hair, or a trans woman should have her nails done, or a trans woman should have soft skin or wear dresses all the time. And that's really dangerous because it reduces trans women to the access that we have to be able to do those things. And the reality is that not all trans women are able to have surgery or afford nice makeup or afford expensive dresses. It's not in the grasp of all trans women,

and that's not what makes you a woman anyway. So, I mean... Can that add to someone's insecurity if they're looking up to someone who's been able to get all the surgeries? Can that add to someone who can't afford it to add to their own struggle on top of being trans? I mean, personally, I don't know. I think this is why it's important to push the idea of not the idea, the fact that you should just look however you want to look. I don't think that we should all stop looking how we want to look because of other people,

whether or not that, you know, people think you look good or think you look bad. I think that it's really important that we are all living how we want to look and living how we want to live, but also making sure that people know that this isn't the only way. Do you? I mean, there are quite a lot. Like, sorry, can I just add? Yeah, go on.

Like, I grew up with, say, Pamela Anderson on television. And I always thought Pamela Anderson was ridiculously beautiful and hot. And that was a, like, a very Barbie kind of beauty. But then I also grew up with Naomi Campbell on television. And she was a very statuesque Amazon Barbie kind of beauty but then I also grew up with Naomi Campbell on television and she was a very statuesque Amazonian kind of beauty and then I grew up with Cyndi Lauper I grew up with Madonna I grew up with Bjork and Kylie Minogue and they were all very different kinds of women and I don't know I think that the fact that I I just gravitated towards powerful women that were very sure of themselves and no matter how they looked, they were just themselves. And it wasn't so much

about, you know, that you had to have big boobs or you had to do this, you had to do that. I think it's about, you know, individuality and see if you see a person as an individual and not the sum of their surgery, I think that that's the problem. Seeing somebody as the sum of their surgery. Um, I look how I want to look and, um, yes, there is a pressure on trans women to have surgery, but just because I've had surgery doesn't mean that I'm advocating that that is what other people should do. So do you feel like, what challenges are there for trans people using dating apps and have things improved? So I actually work with Tinder speaking about how the app has been made more accessible for trans people and I think that trans people have had a really rough time of it

on dating apps. I think mainly because so you know, when you report somebody for catfishing on an app, it just throws them off the platform. The issue has been is that there's a lot of say men who find trans women attractive or find women attractive and then they find out that the woman that they find attractive is actually trans and then reporting that woman on the platform and then that woman getting booted off the platform because they're pretending in that man's eyes to be somebody else when the fact is is that that guy's just freaked out because he's just realized that he finds trans women attractive so um there's a long way to go and i feel like the algorithms have been i don't feel like i know that the algorithms have been made by cis straight white men um so they favor

cis straight white men so if you look at a lot of social media platforms and dating apps, the way that women will be treated in a disproportionate way is really noticeable, saying as men can show their chest, women can't show their nipples. A platform called Salty, which is an amazing amazing feminist platform they printed a study about how facebook have all of these different rules about how women can and can't pose in advertising but there's not one rule for how men can pose what kind of rules are they

so women they they develop these rules um in collaboration with victoria's secret which is a lot oh god um yeah oh my least favorite thing so women can't pose um with their finger in their mouth um women can't pose with their hands in their pants, women as in like underwear, women can't pose. That's weird because when men do that, when men have that, a picture of like, there's a Calvin Klein campaign at the moment. And I think it's like Justin Bieber, he's got his hand kind of suggestively in his pants.

It's kind of a sign of dominance. So it's kind of weird that a woman can't have a fit hand in her pants. It's kind of- Yeah. It's really, really interesting and how you know and algorithms will spot these things and take images down that women post but men's posts won't be um taken down if anything they'll succeed um quicker in terms of engagement um on these platforms so i think we all need to be aware of that as well i sound like like I'm wearing a tin hat, but it's a thing, I promise you.

Can we just do a few more of your DMs? Yeah. Have you ever slid into anyone's DMs? I'm always sliding into people's DMs. Yes, you're the first person. You're a credit hat. I am too. Well, I have been.

If I fancy someone, then I say, because I don't think that it's something that I should be embarrassed of. And, you know, sometimes it will literally just be, oh, well, you know, I'm not interested in anybody right now. Or sometimes it'll be, yeah, let's go for a drink. And then we'll go for a drink, get to know each other. And then it'll end up like being a six month thing

or one year thing. Like, I don't know. I feel like so many people are afraid to shoot their shot. And, you know, especially women are afraid to shoot their shot. But I don't know. Fuck it. Do it.

How would you go about sliding into someone's DMs? What's your opening line as such? So get to know the person first. By stalking or just by... Just say hi. Oh, right. Say hi. Just say, you know, like if I like someone's feed...

That's a reflection of me. By stalking? Well, obviously everyone does the stalking first. But then just like, you know, say hi. You know, I really like your feed. I love what you're about, what you're up to. You know, start a conversation. Don't just be like, you want to go for a drink straight away. say hi i you know i really like your feed i love what you're about what you're up to don't know start a conversation don't just be like you want to go for a drink straight away the amount of guys

that slide into my dms and just say hi you single want to go for a drink and like you don't even know me you could hate my personality like i don't know there's absolutely no no factoring in that they want to even think about my personality yeah so i i don't know i beg to differ these days i think if people are observing you on social media they probably do have an idea of what you're about unfortunately you can't be reversed you don't you don't have the ability to but it's not real is it a lot of the time i don't know i think you're pretty real and i think i think I'm pretty real and I think I don't know I think the right people are she didn't say I was pretty real did you note that I don't know

I feel like I've got I've got I don't know we've all got facets to our personality but like how I am in terms of like my work and my Instagram feed is just like a sliver of who I am as a person. But isn't that as much as someone's going to get on any dating app, for example? Yeah, it is. But I think that's kind of why I'm much more of an in-person kind of person. I get that. Yeah. I mean, I do like apps and I think the apps are really important. And especially as like from a

trans perspective they're crucial because of the amount of like women that you know if a date goes wrong then there's a there's um a record of who you've seen and who they are and that's really important um but I don't know if if I had to weigh up meeting someone in real life or meeting someone on the app it'll always be real life because I'm I'm a romantic and I like to kind of, you know, feel like we get a real connection. Yeah, I know. I hear you. And also you can't you can't tell people's body language on apps. And I think you can on social media, but still, again, it's like performative. So I love just like meeting people in real life because you've seen them and seen like the nuances of their behavior and the little things that they do. Like if they like touch their face in a certain way or like lick their lips, it's like those little things like the reveries, as they say on westworld i'm such a geek but like the you know

the little like bits that people have to their personality that you'll end up essentially falling in love with you don't see yeah that's it um yeah i mean but i mean i'm gonna defend this position because i am a romantic and i absolutely believe believe in serendipity and all of these things but very occasionally I mean like my boyfriend's living to my dms and um very I don't know and that was quite a random weird situation I probably wouldn't have normally gone gone with but there was something instinctive and intuitive about it that meant I had and I do think it can work for that setting because it's I think it can work too I think I like a bit I like a bit of the two and you know social media is so integrated into our lives and I don't know if I meet somebody and

they're not online then I'm kind of like what are you hiding it's true I kind of I kind of like it if someone you know if someone's got banter kind of, I kind of like it if someone, you know, if someone's got banter on social media as well, I think that it's a good component. But, you know,

if I get on with somebody and then they, you know, an absolute idiot online, then it's difficult. I feel like you need to have the whole package these days.

Can I get you to open up your other inbox? Oh my God. Okay. All right. What kind of messages are you getting? What are the top three from some people you don't know? Okay.

So this one is somebody defending Donald Trump, saying that Donald Trump doesn't hate trans people, even though I just posted that he does and is trying to wind back our healthcare. Oh, God. Was it from an American? Yes. Yes.

And then I've got a message from someone that my ex-boyfriend used to sleep with saying hi. No! No, did you reply? Nope. Wait, so then just say hi hi straight up hi nothing else i haven't seen her in a very long time and i think that she was just kind of like making me aware that she's about this and she can see me um i don't actually have too many um yucky messages it's really quite positive on instagram these days we're getting a lot of that a lot of people are kind of um are getting a lot of really nice messages from people um and not not so many dick pics i feel like there's been a shift

i feel like people have become aware that we've been talking about it or like i think or that there's a discussion around just kind of sending random propositions. But you know what? For so long, there wasn't any accountability for male behavior. That's exactly what it is. It was very much like,

oh, boys will be boys. But like now, boys are aware of, you know, what a fuck boy is and it's not cool to be a fuck boy. Yeah. There's repercussion of this.

And also, I think that men have cottoned on to the fact that women will share their dick pic. Yeah. I think the power of the screenshot. I think that's sending it on. Do you get many? Absolutely.

Do I get many dick pics? Yeah. No, not really. I mean, I don't know. I'm very vocal about the fact that I'm really not that into men. Right. I do. I mean, I say this because I don't know I'm very vocal about the fact that I'm really not that into men I do I mean I say this because I don't

sometimes that's encouraging though that encourages them I think I genuinely scare men I think that I don't think that they're that interested in me I get a lot of messages from girls so I guess people don't send a pussy pic today

that's just not a thing no it's not a thing no no i don't know how i'd feel with any like genitals in my inbox i kind of feel like i just don't need it like i felt weird saying pussy pic i don't think i ever want to say that i'd like to thank you so much for coming on our podcast you've been absolutely wonderful and thanks for being so honest with us it's been completely enlightening you're such a hugely

powerful woman but such a brilliant breath of fresh air in your honesty and clarity and I really really love knowing you actually it's great thank you so much babe I can't wait to see you both when this is over. Yes, oh my God.

Take care, love. Take care. Bye. Love's to love. Bye. Thank you for listening to our Spotify original podcast, Sex Lies and DM Slides. Please follow us on Spotify

and tell all your mates about it if you enjoyed it. And if you have any weird and wonderful Sex Lies and DM Slides stories of your own, do slide into our DMs at Sydney Lima and at Gizzy Erskine. No dick pics, please. Also follow us on Twitter

and Instagram at Sex Lies DM Slides. This Spotify original podcast is a Hayden Prowse production edited by Steve Hankey with music by Free Seed Films. Our executive producers at Spotify are

Rachel Simpson and Alexandra Adie.