Sex With Emily - Porn: Can You Learn From It?

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

([TW // mentions SA, r*pe] If you would like to skip these portions of the episode, please skip through: 21:30-22:25, 51:30-52:05.)Porn gets a bad rap – for very understandable reasons. Today, I’m breaking down the reasons why with Dr. Wednesday Martin, and also playing devil’s advocate and giving you a new way to approach it. Can you learn legit sex skills from porn viewing? In this episode, I’m going through all the reasons porn might be triggering for some, so you know how to incorporate it into your relationship or your solo sex in a healthy way. Next, I give tips for how to watch it with a partner, and identify your personal turn-ons. Finally, I talk through edu-porn, audio erotica and other contemporary porn platforms that get you aroused…and sexually educated.Show Notes:6 Secrets to Have the Best Oral Sex of Your LifeLELO F1S V2 (code SEXWITHEMILY for 25% off sitewide)ORDER MY NEW BOOK! Smart Sex: How to Boost Your Sex IQ and Own Your PleasureSex With Emily: HomeMore Sex With Emily: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | TikTok Study: Pornography does not cause violent sex crimesMake Love Not Porn (Cindy Gallop)Erika LustDr. Wednesday Martin on SWE: Dating Younger Men, Canceling Threesomes: Emily Tells All | It’s Open (Relationship) Season | Best of: Women, Lust & InfidelityWednesday Squirts for the First Time with Kenneth Play & WhitneyMore Dr. Wednesday Martin: Instagram | Twitter | Website (wednesdaymartin.com) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Using porn to prompt a conversation about what you like and what you don't like, this could be a position you want to try, a fantasy. Maybe it's, you know, side by side porn viewing when you can share this experience together, learn about yourself in the process. So this is like a fun date and like, turn that porn negativity into something because like when they say it's not going anywhere, our distant ancestors are watching porn, how do we make it work for us rather than against us? You're listening to Sex with Emily.

I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Listen, porn gets a bad rap. For very understandable reasons, well today I'm breaking down the reasons why with anthropologists and sex expert Dr. Wednesday Martin and also playing devil's advocate and giving you a new way to approach it. From educational porn, audio-erotica, and other contemporary porn platforms that get

you aroused, can you learn legit sex skills from porn viewing? But first, please rate your view sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show. It really helps. So just do that now review. We love five stars. My new article, Six Secrets to Have the Best Oral Sex of Your Life is up on SexWithEmily.com. Enjoy this episode! Hi Emily!

Hi, Dr. Wendy Martin. Thank you for joining me today. I'm this amazing girl. I'm a great girl. I'm a great girl. I'm a great girl. I'm a great girl. I'm a great girl. Hi, Emily. Hi, Dr. Wednesday Martin. Thank you for joining me today on this important show about porn. Of course, I love having you here. And, you know, we love having you so much on the show and we're good friends.

I just would love you to have a guest co-host to me as we talk through porn. Because what it occurred to me was Wednesday. And why we're doing this specific show on porn is because I could ask so many questions around porn, and after coming off of the smart sex book tour, I was probably on 30 other podcasts, 50 podcasts, and in every single podcast, they sent me, what's your views on porn?

Good or bad? And I'm like, oh, it's not too black and white. It's not so binary. It's, there are goods and bads and goods and bads There are some you know pros and cons and so I just thought why don't we just break it down like why is it so controversial? What do people love about it? How can we use it effectively? Efficiently erotically in ways that feels good to a lot of people. I love this. I love this. This is brilliant.

It's such a big cultural flashpoint for people. We know that porn use is really prevalent, something like 70% of adults in the US in some study say they use porn. I love that you had this idea and I love that we're doing it together. Count me in. Okay. Good. I'm grateful. I know you're a porn aficionado. Would that be crepto say or porn?

No, it is correct. I'm a fan of porn and I would have to qualify that in certain ways and I'm sure we're gonna get into it. You're gonna get into it. I believe that there are some legitimate information we can learn from porn. There's edu porn, like educational porn, which is out now that I'm excited about.

But then porn is also controversial. And we want to make sure that porn can be additive in many intimate relationships, not in replacement. And so I thought we could talk through some negative associations people have with porn. Things to keep in mind is you approach porn with fresh eyes and then different types of porn and how we could explore dirty talk power dynamics positions. First, I thought we could start with like why porn gets a bad rap? Why is porn so triggering for people? So I think what comes to your mind about why it is triggering? I think that when it comes to porn, it's all about how you use it. A lot of times we talk about porn as if it's some horrendous pestilence that's descended on us in the modern and postmodern era.

The fact of the matter is we have used sex toys and porn for just about as long as we have been around recently, like not even so recently, over the decades, archaeologists have uncovered these amazing prescos in Pompeii and other places in ancient Rome and Greece that show these beautiful erotic murals that people likely use to enhance their sex lives. We, you know, so porn is not new. We had it in in the Victorian era. Porn has been with us for a long, long time. I think the problem in the controversy comes from a few things.

The way porn is produced, which there's a lot problematic about that. The way porn is used, that it's used as sex ed. And third of all, I think there is a lot of misinformation and disinformation about how porn impacts social and sexual behavior, but Look, let's start with your listeners and you because What is it that the people who dislike porn dislike about it and what you think are the drawbacks? First off everything you said is so spot on and I want to go back to real quickly Like we're talking about like in the caves, right, where you'd like uncover these like stones

or buried right, archeological caves. And like that must've been a deal. And there's that deal. No, there's that deal. So I'm also wondering, and I've never thought about this for a Wednesday, but you would know this as an anthropologist. I think of like the caveman drawings. I've been in different caves, I can roam and wherever.

Are those more from the male gaze too? Are those images more for all genders? Actually, let's geek out on one thing that a lot of it turns out that archaeologists have recently discovered that many cave drawings, and I'm talking about pre-modern era, right? Many of those cave drawings done by our distant ancestors, it turns out we're drawn in menstrual blood and drawn by women.

So that's a really cool thing. And yes, there, some archaeologists have found what they think are sort of neolithic representations of, if not porn, people in sexual positions. So this is not a new thing. Porn is not a new postmodern disease or anything to freak out about in terms of the long arc of humaneness. One of the most normalizing things we can say about porn is it has been with this probably for as long as we've been having sex, which is a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time. Long time.

Okay, so that's, I was just curious. You're saying I'm like, you would be the person to actually know, and that was amazing that it was drawn and meant for what to piggyback on what you said is that the problem is with the production. When we think of porn, we mostly think of the porn that we find readily available, and that is mostly porn by the male gaze, by men, or for men, and it's so available,

and a lot of it is kind of disturbing, because when people use that kind of porn, that's only from the male gaze, as your only form of sex education is problematic. So problematic, because then you're just perpetuating that, you know, women are objects and men are subjects and we have a long way to go there with mainstream porn. So yeah, there could be no more disastrous sex ed than young men learning if they're heterosexual, that like, hello, I am a lady in a movie. I come immediately from vaginal penetration.

That's just not happening. Yeah, we're on the same page about that. Too often porn is patriarchy, right? Just we live in a patriarchy. As an anthropologist, can I just quickly say what a patriarchy is? It's a real thing. A patriarchy is any ecology where they are descriptively verifiable differences between men and women's ability to earn

the same wage, attain the same education, and be equally involved in high positions in government, okay? And so we just live in high positions in government. Okay, and so we just live in a patriarchy period. We still do, we're working on it. It makes sense that porn is going to be patriarchal unless we make deliberate intentional interventions. And I have a feeling that might be what you're up to here today eventually.

But yes, this is exactly what we're going to get to eventually. But yes, exactly what we're gonna get to. What was your first experience with porn Wednesday? Do you remember the first time you saw? Oh, it was so positive. I was in the basement of our house in Grand Rapids, Michigan being a little nosy if my mother and father are listening, I don't know the thing of this story. But I went into my father's,

there was a file cabinet down in the basement by the furnace. It's a little detective and I thought, oh, there's something good in here. Started digging through. Found a penthouse magazine. It blew my mind. Wasn't so much the women's bodies, although I found them beautiful and alluring and attractive and exciting. But what really got me going was the writing. I loved it. I loved that there was this letter to the editor or whatever they were called, and they were basically just short erotic writings, posing as letters to the editor.

And the one that I read that really set my brain and my glitterist on fire was a woman talking about how she had a plumber come over and plum her depths. I loved it. I was off to the races. I was off to the races. What is that you? What was your career?

We were like, Mom, I think the toilets broken after that. We should be. I need to get a flumber? Tarn, I wasn't that smart, but I was scheming and I was having fun in the bathtub thinking about it. Fun and good. It's so fun. It was super positive. Okay, what about you?

Okay, well, you know, mine was, I'm remembering this now that it was when we got cable, like it was probably HBO or Showtime. It was a manual, that show a manual, but you had to pay it to get it. And you could see the fuzzy, like you couldn't totally see it, but it was like this fuzzy screen

and you could kind of, when you turn to that channel, even though we didn't pay for it, you could see the bodies having sex and you knew something was up, but you couldn't really see it. So that was the first time I was like, this is off limits to me, so I definitely wanna see what it is.

So I was, I was a little bit erotic, but like frustrating, it was like, it was like trying to get up. Yeah, you're like trying to get up and dial up Wi-Fi when you can't get there. Like a long time ago, it was like, you're like,

I kinda see a boob, is that a boob? But then I also remember, the postman always rings twice. Do you remember that movie from the 80s? Finn, Fiddly, tell the kids who don't know. Fiddly. It was like, I don't really, honestly, I don't even remember what the exact scene was,

but I remember it was like a dark, dark, you know, house, it was raining. And maybe it is the postman, she has sex with, I mean, I think it was young. I must have been 13 or 12, but he comes in and it's raining and he goes in and like, they have sex and it's really, really a hot sexy scene. And I think he's also a hired employee who comes over to fix something or do some maybe he's a postman.

I don't really, I'm not just remembering this. And to me, that was a very hot scene, but maybe you could fill it in, because I just remembered doing something in my loins. I feel like I'm in my loins when I'm fire. I'm stirring, was there stirring in your loins? There was a stirring in my loins, yes. Hey, Tinterop, but we're gonna take a quick break for our sponsors who help keep the Sex with Family podcast

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And I remember people were scandalized. It was everywhere. And what I remember is that they had sex in the kitchen. They find me remember. The kitchen? That's the scene I remember. And I was like, wow, I never looked at my kitchen in my house the same way again.

But you don't want to love about this. This is begging the question, like, what really is porn? Because as a kid, I would read my mom's books by Nancy Friday, right? Like my secret garden, which was all women's sexual panties. Now, Nancy Friday was a famous writer and female sexuality. She's a famous sexologist.

I mean, she trained herself, but she was the world's leading authority on women in sexual fantasy. Is that book porn? Because that really got me off reading about women's sexual fantasy. So yeah, is the postman always drinks twice porn? Were those frescoes in Pompeii porn? Right. You know, what is porn?

But I love our early experiences. We're exciting. Yeah. exactly and positive I would say So, but where we gone wrong clearly for women we got turned on and then you jumped to Honestly over the years. I remember my next experience with porn was actually watching it was in my 20s I was dating a guy. I was a very serious relationship. I love this guy We have a great sex and he had a stack of VHS tapes. And I remember one time he was born and I was looking at his tapes and I remember looking at this tape

and it was a woman who had was had blonde hair and large breasts and looked nothing like me and I was very disturbed by it. I thought we're having great sex. Is this what he wants instead of me? And I was confused until we had a conversation about it. And I don't think it was until years later until I became a sexologist.

I started to understand that like, oh no, you can have attraction to things that it's not necessarily what you want. And I got confused. So I understand why a lot of my listeners have problems with porn. I think it's cheating because I'm this kind of... And this is one of the upsides and the downsides of porn, which I'm sure we'll get into,

but it's like, keep, could be completely in love with you, but we haven't evolved appetite all of us, especially women, for variety and novelty and adventure when it comes to sex. So maybe that was just his little bit of variety and novelty and adventure. And because you had a conversation about it, you realized it's not cheating. And can I also say that shout out to men producing and directing porn, like Emily and I and all these other women, you would have us in the palm of your hand

if you would stop showing all those fake tits and perfect Barbie dolls. But we'll get into that. This goes into one thing just to kind of clarify that is how I got through that as I actually had a conversation with him, and maybe I was like 24 years old, 25 years old, and then I realized our sex life started to get even better, and then I would watch poor with him, and then I came to understand that it is separate.

He didn't want to leave me for a porn star, but the problem is left unchecked in relationships, couples don't discuss porn usage. So then I hear couples all the time who feel blindsided, they caught their partner watching porn on the side, and they thought they had an agreement that they would never do that. And so, you know, we worry that porn

is a replacement for us. And then if you're the one watching, then you feel guilty, then you're like, in the basement, you're watching porn, helping your partner doesn't find you. And this is when it becomes problematic. Yes, it's about the lack of communication around porn and the misinformation and disinformation is one of the biggest problems. And I'll just say as a cultural anthropologist, what we say is that porn remains culturally taboo, even though it is a very, very common sexual and social behavior.

So that's always the heart of the issue. What is the thing that lots of people are doing, but that is culturally taboo? That's gonna really set you free if you delve into that. Like you did with your partner, able to have a conversation about it, able to accept it as a normal thing. I'll just say one thing that I am really embarrassed

to remember, which is that I remember when my husband and I were in the worst of it. Two young children, careers on fire, exhausted, probably not diagnosed having a severe amhydonia or even a clinical depression. And we weren't having sex and my husband one night was on his laptop and I realized that he was watching porn. I got so angry.

I gave him such a hard time and I accused him of being a porn addict, and I told him that porn was dangerous and addictive, and I just gave my husband such a hard time for that. But I realized in recounting it was one of the reasons and I had even forgotten about it, that I wanted to understand porn and sexuality better. And I've done a complete 180, personally, speaking for myself.

But let me tell you, I shut down that conversation. And I'm like a sex expert. I shut that conversation down. I told him he was wrong. I told him it was bad. I told him it was an addiction. Mala-baba. I was wrong.

Yeah, but you were wrong and I was wrong in a sense of we didn't really understand it. So the next play I want to make is, for most people watching porn, it is not an addiction. When it is left unchecked, people can be dependent on porn for arousal, which is why I do think people become threatened by it. Because it is true that like, there are people who are like, I wish I didn't need porn to be aroused, but's a it's on a spectrum

Yeah, I think We have a lot of anxiety about porn because we sense that it's powerful and any time we know something's very powerful and Alluring we're very right to have miss giving to that kind of really be this easy. Can it really not be harmful? Is it possible that something is this good? And we'll get into ethical versus ethical porn versus porn hub and the actual content and what's being represented. But overall, I think that the overall container here

is porn is powerful, pleasurable, and alluring for a lot of people. And so we think this must be bad for us. So okay, let's talk about that. How is porn actually impacting our social behavior? I mean, I would say that a really important thing for people to understand is 57% of Americans according to one study have used porn in their lives and something like 44% have used it within the last month.

People are using porn period, we're not going to change that. But how is it actually impacting their behavior? Because a lot of people have anxiety about this and they presume it must be bad. Let's talk about some actual studies. There was a meta-study. A meta-study is when you do a study of all the study.

So with the University of Texas in San Antonio, these two researchers looked at 40 years of studies. They crunched 50 studies overall and let me tell you something because our anxieties go from will I be dependent on this and not be able to get aroused by it to does this lead to sexual violence okay. So that's the spectrum of fears. Let me go to the worst fear first. What they found in this medicine study at the University of Texas in San Antonio is that there was literally zero correlation between poor news and sexual aggression or

sexual violence. Zero correlation, okay? I want to say that again. They found zero correlation between poor news and sexual aggression or sexual violence. They did a 40 year crunch of the data from 50 studies. Can we clarify sexual violence? Do you mean like rape, assault that people who watched porn were less likely to, or they didn't, they didn't find a correlation? There was no increase in their sexual aggression

as the study authors defined sexual aggression. And we can put in the show notes because I'm not sure exactly how they just, that's an important point. So let's put the study in the show note. So there was not an increase in sexual aggression and there was not an increase in sexual violence. And yes, by that we mean sexual assault

and we define sexual assault widely. As somebody doing something that you do not consent to, I don't care if you're pinching my ass, or whatever it is, if I haven't agreed to that, that is sexual aggression and a sexual assault. Okay, so I just wanted to say that now I want to get into the nitty gritty a little bit with your time permission, Dr. Morse. About what actually happens when people use porn.

Okay, because it does impact our sexual menu to have to be viewing social and sexual behaviors. We tend to, as a species, say, okay, well that looks good. Let me see if I can add that to the menu. All right, so our friend, Debbie Herbeneck, lover, University of Indiana, Bloomington, she took a nationally representative sample of Americans between 1860. Okay, she found out that men and women who have sex with men are now on the receiving end of

new sexual behaviors. These include choking, their partner ejaculating on their face, and what the study author's define as, quote, aggressive belatio, unquote. She says lifetime pornography is was reported by most respondents and after adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure and current relationship status, the associations between porn use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant. In other words, let's say it again.

porn and social behavior, Dr. Herb and I found found are mutually influencing each other. And if you are having sex with a man who is watching porn, whether you're a man or woman, you are more likely in the aggregate. Be on the receiving end of choking, a partner ejaculating on your face, and or aggressive, polishio. And that the associations between porn use

and sexual behaviors was statistically significant. May I break that down? Yes, because I think that's where we're at right now. That's the part of a woman who's like, I don't want to be choked. Nourished right? Right. Choked under penis. So what's happening?

Yeah. Right. Break it down. Okay. My anthropological take. We evolved as super flexible social strategist. We evolved as super flexible sexual strategies. We had so many things on our menu, so many ways we could live, so many things we liked sexually, that we survived as a

species, whereas our earlier homo ancestors died out. They bit the dust. We didn't bite the dust because we're pervy and flexible, okay? Porn can hook into that in the best ways. It's it's hooking into the fact that we are super flexible sexual and social strategists. Of course, if we're walking watching porn, we're going to think, well, that might be interesting. Now, hopefully the next step we take is we ask our partner, would that be interesting for you? And this is more of the kind of data that we need. We need nuanced contextualized data about the relationship between porn and social behavior.

But we know for sure is that it is not making people more sexually violent or sexually aggressive. Now, Debbie Herbenex study might seem to contradict that, but it doesn't, because we don't know whether these people are saying, do you want to do this or not. And I have to, I have to hope that they are, but I also have to say that as an anthropologist, I'm not a longer surprised that we're widening our sexual, widening our sexual menus, narrowing our sexual menus, getting more enlightened than less enlightened based on what we see and read and hear and watch.

It's not a surprise. One of Dr. Herbenex's conclusions was, she wasn't throwing up her hands. She was saying, hey, doctors, if a woman comes to you or a man comes to you and says, okay, can you tell me about choking? Be ready for it. Be ready to talk to your patients about, is it okay if a guy ejaculates on my face? Be ready to talk to your patients about if your patient said, is face fucking bad for me? Or if your patient says, look, I want to do my partner wants to face, fuck me. Can we talk about this? Be ready, therapist,

be ready, doctors. You know, you're the first line in helping people. That was one of the big points. This is so helpful because what we're always saying is, I don't know that that is the most enjoyable porn necessarily for the recipients. It's not that it can't feel good. And this is another story I'd love to do. Like, I sometimes like being choked is kind of cool. It can feel okay, because it's a little bit dominant. But I don't know that this just assumption that every person wants to be choked

and have someone come on their face or be choked with someone's penis in their mouth is necessarily what we want. And I think going back to porn being made by men for men, the banister, it's got a control. And I was also throwing anal sex. I would throw in that anal play, anal sex before porn became so ubiquitous was also a new behavior for all genders that wasn't as widespread as it is now, especially for heterosexual couples. I love that point. I went time with the guy who isn't choking and I had never tried it before.

And afterwards, I was really, really dizzy. And I wasn't sure if it was from choking. And I happen to have an internist in New York, who's a gay man. He's amazing. He's like a leather queen. I hope I'm not talking at school when I say this, but I'm not his name and he so he's like a gay man with a very wide sexual repertoire And I said listen, I have some concerns. I I was with the partner who is choking me and I'm feeling really dizzy I love just response his response was

Huh, I've never tried that. I've tried a lot of things but but I haven't tried that. And I think porn had something to do with me having a new sexual experience. Me having questions about it. And I think that you can argue that porn had something to do with my doctor being open to it from a professional perspective, because it's changing the way we have sex. It could be for good.

It can be for bad. Exactly. And it's probably like your doctor is probably a little bit older. Like we're talking about people like 35 and older maybe who didn't grow up as much with porn. Yeah. That the younger generation did.

And I think the problem with choking, like I like the fact that it was like a little bit of hand on my throat and it was a little dominating. But for some people, you do it wrong. It's dangerous. You're more, you're trachea. You want to be on the sides of the throat. And also my producer just let me know that she lost her voice the day after someone tried which shows that she was not being choked properly.

So there is a new answer, which is why you always want to ask for consent. So let's get into one more thing. You want to do a right thing. Consent is the most important thing, dudes. Whether you're having sex with a man or a woman or a trans person or somebody who identifies as neither. Whoever you're having sex with, get consent. Don't just be like, oh, this widened my sexual menu, let me do it to you. Like the whole conversation is premise that we're having is premised on people asking

for and giving consent. Also, don't be trying to choke somebody if you don't know how to do it. Ask an expert. So I wanted to segue here into another impact of porn, but that's its impact on sexual functioning. So there's an email I want to read, and this is going to talk about, does it actually impact our ability to function? So this is an email, and I'd love to help Kelsey out here.

It's from Kelsey's 39 in Seattle. Hey, Dr. Emily, my boyfriend I've been together for over two years. He is amazing and we still have sex, oral sex, or masturbate together every day if not twice a day. Wow, did she have a job? I'm just always in a good mood. How long is it going to get?

How long is it going to get together? Okay. They've been together for over two years and they're having sex twice a day. Okay, but my problem is that my boyfriend can't come with me. We will have sex. I will orgasm multiple times, but I think because of his medication, he can't orgasm with me.

Instead, he has to fantasize about having sex with another woman and watching porn while he masturbates and I suck on his balls. Sometimes it is erotic and exciting, but after two years of listening to him talk about how amazing, tight, and hot other voices are, it gets to me. It's like he lacks the ability to experience pleasure in the moment it has to switch, his mind to a different place in order to climax.

Is this something I should be concerned about or just understand? It is what it is, and I need not to internalize it. I try to talk to him when I'm in more of an emotional state and longing for someone to be close to, but even then, after sex, he immediately starts to jerk off and verbalize thoughts of other women. Often after sex, I end up feeling lonely and inadequate. I don't want to make a big deal of it if it's what he needs to redorgasm, and the few

times I've brought it up, he gets very defensive. I guess I don't know where to set the boundary if I'm being overly critical or how to open the line of communication in a way that encourages him to open up rather than angry and shut it down. Now, there's so much to impact here. First off, I get it's about poor, but let me say one thing. He's on a medication. So medication, as we know, can impact people's abilities

to come. I don't know what came first here, the chicken or the egg, the medication, or the porn, because perhaps he was like, shit, I can't orgasm with my medication. Maybe I should start watching porn, but either way, that's just one thing I want to mention. Because if you are on a medication and you can't ejaculate or can't have an orgasm no matter what

you're gender, you don't have to live boycott like that. You can talk to your doctor and figure out other types of medication you can take because you don't need to impact your sex life to the ability of... Amen. So, after that 35 to 75% to people on SSRIs, 35 to 75% might have that issue. Go on, Emily. That aside, it says that he has to fantasize about having sex with other women and watching porn while he masturbates and I suck at his balls.

So though they want to break down is there are some people who I often like to make the distinction between a fantasy and a fetish. There are people who have three-some fetishes or have fetishes about having to talk about or think about having sex with another woman while they're with you. Every time I was with a partner and I would even say it was a fetish

because his earliest sex fantasy and sexual experience was a threesome and every time we had sex, he had to verbally talk about us having a threesome. Even though we weren't and we didn't, he had to verbally talk about us having a threesome. Even though we weren't, and we didn't, he had to be like, okay. Now there's another woman and she's licking your clit and I'm like, oh my God, every time.

And then I'd have to be like, oh, yeah, baby, that feels so good and it got exhausting. But I actually knew that it was a requirement for his arousal and I'd deal with it, but it was a lot to do with. But that's what God said. He might have that. But getting into the porn part of it, what she's saying is, so now she feels lonely and inadequate

because every single time they watch porn because you can't eject it, we don't know why, we don't know if it's because of the medication or a habit, he's watching porn to get a rouse to sex with her. So what would we say about this? Because we do hear this a lot about people who are required to need porn playing in the background. Hold on.

It's not porn problem. This is a communication problem. I'm OK. And these two things are getting collapsed into each other, I believe. I do get, I mean, I'm the person who yelled at my husband a million years ago and said he was an addict, and I felt like he was cheating on me. I get it. But let's dig into this a little bit. Here's what I'm really focused on. Okay. Is this something I need

to just deal with and not to internalize it? I try to talk to him when I'm longing to be close, but even then, after sex, he immediately starts again. After sex, I end up feeling lonely and I don't want to make a big deal out of it. Okay, the few times I've brought it up, you get very defensive. Is a communication, people, porn is here to stay. This guy is probably it sounds like on an SSRI. He has a hard time ejaculating. Porno is this wonderful tool that helps him ejaculate. He has an issue communicating to his girlfriend and she has an issue communicating to him. The specific way you're doing this is making me feel lonely and sad and left out.

These people just need a conversation about Porno that you and I are going to help them to have. There's nothing wrong with their relationship that he needs this extra thing. Look, some guys who are 68 need to be with the 23 year old to have an orgasm. Some gay men need to be with a guy who looks like a porn star because they're on an SSRI. We all have things that we need to get off, it gets harder, we get older, it gets harder, is we're in a long-term monogamous relationship for longer. So I feel very hopeful about this couple that really the issue is that he's defensive about communicating about it. So she's telling herself a story in the absence of

him being able to talk about it like a grown-up. And by the way, buddy, learn to talk to your girlfriend like a grown-up about sex or you're gonna lose her. And it's okay to talk to your partner about porn. You're not a cum dumpster. He obviously has been with you for a long time and really likes you. Is he treating you like a cum dumpster when you go out to dinner? Is he treating you like a cum dumpster when you're at church or going for a walk? I don't think so. So this is a sex thing, but like they need a couple's therapists to is not judge you about porn and watch out because they're people who are to help them have a conversation and see that this could be like a wonderful opportunity for more connection

and fun or sex. What porn does she like? Right. Is she into porn? Do we know what her fantasies are? Emily, what if she said to him, hey, babe, I want to talk to you about the kind of porn that gets me off? Right.

I would love that. Either she doesn't know because she has a negative association with porn or she's very caught up on what is going wrong with him that she probably hasn't left any room to understand her arousal. So I think there is a lot to impact here. I definitely think therapy or sex therapy to help them for sure have the conversations outside the bedroom. But the other thing I would recommend for them is him trying to agree once they get to the conversation where he says, yes, baby, I want to be good lover to you.

I don't want you to feel sad and lonely. I don't think that's his intention. If she actually lets him know what she's feeling. And there are ways that you can learn to have sex without porn. This is not a fixed state. So they could start to be more mindful. They could start to turn off the porn

and really connect intentionally. Like I think that there's ways for him to, you know, retrain his brain, not be as attached to porn. There are many men who do stop watching porn because they realize it becomes a problem. I don't love using the word addiction. When it comes to porn at all, but I'd like to say you could have a reliance or a dependence on porn. And so like anything, he could say, I'm going to try tonight to have sex with you up. And I'll be okay if I don't orgasm.

I'll be okay. But I want to learn for both of us to learn to connect again in a different way. And then maybe once they do connect in that way, he can learn other sources of arousal and learn to reconnect with her. Sure. porn because he's never had time. And porn becomes easy. Yeah, I get it.

I get what you're saying. I still think that the porn is not the problem. And I'm going to say something. I like my vibrator every single time. Now that I'm in my 50s and discovered it, I like my vibrator every single time. And I don't want to not use my vibrator during sex. It's easy. I like it. I have been orgasming with my hands and the penis for my entire sexual history. And when I found a vibrator,ability I was like this is easy, this is fun, this is what gets me off, this is what I want to do. Now I would be very low to tell these people that it's somehow a virtue to not use porn. It's like this guy's in a tight spot, it's hard for him

to orgasm. I'm more of the school of if you talk about the porn, you might not have to get rid of it. That's all I'm saying. You know, I'm an anthropologist about this. We are always getting it becoming up with new things and porn is not going anywhere. It's sort of like dating apps. It's like love it, hate it, find good things. So I think what would be important for them is to have some conversations outside the bedroom if they can find a therapist or a sex therapist That would be amazing and also focus on what is her source of arousal? Maybe a toy would be helpful for her maybe finding other ways to

Turn herself out maybe if he's going down on her while watching porn. She's fine Like what's gonna get her off so he can get off so they can learn to not rate the porn? What's going to help her feel less lonely and what's going to help him communicate like more of a partner and less of a defended, I mean, people get so defended about what gets them off. They need therapy. It's going to help so much. I love what you're saying, Wednesday. Porn is here to stay.

So if porn is here to stay, how do we use porn to learn? Okay. What can we learn from porn? Because it is more inclusive now. We do know there's some female directors. There's ways to elevate it, use it for sex education rather than just passively watching it. We have talked about other ethical porn or female-friendly porn, which I think is important.

The problem is it's not as readily available. I should define ethical porn really quickly, ethical porn, which I think is a tricky work as you're like porn and ethical, like I just lost my erection. But when I'm talking about ethical porn, what I'm saying is it means that it's porn that is made with bodies that represent all bodies.

It's made with pay equity. Performers are consenting. They're treated well. There's diversity and they prioritize female pleasure. If people are interested in digging in a little bit about why we need ethical porn, I think one of the best things they could read is a book by my colleague Maraille Miller Young, his sociologist, and writes about black women and porn, and she wrote a book called The Taste of Brown Sugar, and she talks about how black women are paid half

of what white women are to perform. That statistic is from 2013. I hope it's improved. And the other thing is, the other awful thing, and the other reason, let's consider ethical porn, and I'm so glad we're talking about it, is did you know that white women are paid more to have sex with black men in the porn industry

than they are with white men, as if that's some kind of, you know, hardship or they should be compensated more for having sex with a black man? There's so much racism in the porn industry. And so, it's not just about gender equity, it's about racism as well, and systemic racism in the porn industry.

So just something to think about when you're like, could I leave porn home? Could I try out the porn? Could I try, right? And ethical porn is hot. I'm telling you what Cindy Gallup and Erica Lust are doing is hot But thank you for defining ethical porn and I just wanted to know and thank you for adding that That's important. We'll put all of that in the show notes

So my tip is if you can't beat off to porn find a way that you can whatever it is Yeah, our genres that you might be attracted to so what can learn from porn? Like are there ways that people can sort of mine porn ethical porn or just find any kind of porn that actually does speak to them that does turn them on because you can get incredible insights by finding some porn see, even it was three minutes in porn. Like, oh, that was kind of hot to me.

So we're always watching a certain porn. Like, maybe you're always watching BDSM porn or Power Play. And you're like, oh, that are the same sex porn. I love lesbian porn. I like gay porn. That is going to be certainly a sign that maybe this is what turns me on. That could give you some kernels for your erotic desires might be.

Maybe you have a fantasy scenario you come back to, the massage that turns into a sexy fantasy. I've actually had that happen in real life, and that is a very hot one. Best friends who start having sex, maybe you're looking for emotional themes. So it's not even saying that you literally want to try it in real life, but it's like the energy. What did it make you feel? Yeah. And again, we're trying to find what can we learn from porn?

When people say it's porn all the way to bed, I'm saying, well, maybe we could learn some things. You know, you know, it's a tool. It's a tool. It definitely is a tool. So maybe if you have a fantasy about you're having sex with your best friend, it could mean that there's some like, pent up sexual tension. And maybe that's really hot for you.

Not that you actually want to have sex with your best friend, but you love the idea of pent up, unrequited lust and desire. So, and maybe if you like massage, it could be like a power play thing or a transgression. It's unexpected that this masseuse actually did go around and like, turn me on. So I think that these fantasies, you know, maybe you want to act them out with your partner,

you don't want them to have them in real life. So one of the pillars I talk about in Smart Sex is self-knowledge. And I'm always trying to get people to say, yeah, how do we mind our sexual experiences for self-knowledge? Stick around because after another quick break, we're talking more about how porn can be used as a learning tool. I love your point that we can use porn for knowledge and self knowledge. First of all, I think one of the issues that people have with porn is they somehow harbor this shameful belief that because they like watching something, they want to do it and

they want it to be a real thing in real life. Okay. So say somebody likes watching a very strong BDSM theme. They like watching somebody like get smacked with a cat and I and the woman is screaming and oh my god, this is terrible. And oh, I love it. I hate it. I hate you. I love you. Whatever. Okay. They think they're enjoying that. Okay. Hey, you love to enjoy that. We love to enjoy everything from getting peed on, to kissing somebody's feet, to, yeah, like liking to whack somebody or get whacked

with the like, out you leather things. God bless us. Now, the issue is that then the person might think, I am a violent, terrible person because I like this pornographic vignette where the woman seems to be not liking this. Now if you're watching ethical porn, it's all consensual, so take that away. But the second thing is, it doesn't mean that you want to go out on the street and literally actually do this. It doesn't mean you're sexist, it doesn't mean you're violent,

it doesn't mean you have no respect for women. It means that you have an evolved sexual appetite for all kinds of stuff including kink. So that's the first thing I wanted to say about learning from porn. That people have to unlearn this idea that liking a certain kind of porn makes them a bad person who hates women, who hates men, who hate whatever. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, I think that's great. Fantastic. Fantastic, these are not the same as realities.

I might love the idea of dominating a guy and putting my heel into his forehead and grinding my heel into his forehead and he gives me a million dollars for it. Hey, I don't know. That doesn't mean that I hate men. That doesn't mean that I even literally want to grind my heel into somebody's forehead, although if you do, God bless, just do it consensually. But I think that's one of the first things we have to talk about about learning from porn. On the learn that these things mean you want to do them in real life. Second thing, clue fun for everybody.

Sex research or sexologists, anthropologists who study sexuality. You guys, just so you know when you're listening we look at porn we look at the porn categories That you like and we learn a lot, okay? Everything I want to say about learning from porn. I want to share an anecdote started seeing a guy a wild bag Super self-confident guy Super sexually experienced in his 60s I knew that I could be honest with this guy and he said to me one night like what are you doing? I said I'm looking for some porn. And without missing a beat he said okay will you save all the tabs so I can see what you like? That's

how? Oh my god. It's a level. Black belt. That is a black belt. We want a partner who celebrates our erotic desires. We don't want a partner who yucks our yum, who shames us. And you know, we talk so much about shame in this, when it comes to sex and then it's like, I always talk about shame, could come from your upbringing or your childhood. But really, shame can come from our partners too.

Like, ooh, I can't believe you're watching porn or ooh, I can't believe you liked that. Here, you had a guy who was like, ooh, I can't believe you're watching porn or, ooh, I can't believe you liked that. Here you had a guy who was like, spread on, send me the links. Let's do it together. Yeah, and let me say that there was no coincidence that this guy never complained about using condoms and loved when I used my vibrator

because this is a partner who really wants to get into it with you and one of the ways they can really get into it with you is ask you, hey, do you like torch porn? If you want to watch it together, tell me what you might like to watch. And who says, hey, if you admit that you like porn, which I felt like I could, they can save you, okay, save those tabs for me. So you can learn a lot of your partner. And I would just urge everybody, you think you're learning what your partner likes. You're not learning that your partner wants to be kidnapped

or wants to kidnap people. You're not learning that your partner wants to brand somebody. I mean, you're learning what they like to watch. Exactly. So when it actually, I'm so glad we're bringing this up because there's an email that defines us perfectly. And I think we can help her, how to handle this because she actually does believe

that her partner's porn watching is defining him. So this is from Katie. She's 37 and she says, Hey, Dr. Emily, I would love to get your advice and how to move forward towards acceptance with a partner's pornography preference. I've seen my partner's porn search histories

and it's usually degrading terms like sluts, hores, sloppy, and drunk. And although I know we treat you with respect and kindness, that really jared me. I also watch porn and can understand that what I watch isn't necessarily what I always desire, but for some reason I can't wrap my head around the same concept for him, please help. So I could see though, like sloppy drunk slut whores. He treats her with kindness. That's the poor he's watching could be confusing.

I think this is a great time to have a conversation about the poor marching and she doesn't want to shame him. Maybe could you tell me more about the source of this arousal for all we know? He might have had a history where there was an early fantasy or something happened where he was with somebody and she wanted to be called a slatter or and maybe she's been assaulted and it's a trigger for her, right? I'm just pulling out 10,000 feet here that that's why again, before she shames him, I can see, understand why that might be confusing.

They can have a conversation where she has to be using my three T's for communication, timing, turpentone, and her tone has to be open and curious and compassionate. I'd love to know more about your fantasies around this. I understand that maybe you don't want it to happen in real life. And that makes sense to me, but maybe you could tell me more about, would you remember the first time you found this to be a turn-on for you? I just want to say something. I'm not trying to shame anybody or anything, but like, you looked at your boyfriend's porn history, I guess he didn't like wipe out the history or whatever, but you know, sometimes we keep things private for a reason. Sometimes it's better to give people a little sexual privacy.

So I would just suggest maybe, you know, being aware when you go into the conversation that you have, that she has done this, and it's not the end of the world, but it's part of the context. You know, let's put him at ease about that and assure him that you know. Right? I'm glad you said that. Yes, sure. And then there's no blame here. But and then like you said to you, this is an opportunity for conversation, I would even say that I would start the conversation if she can because I believe she says that she likes porn. Am I right? She could say, look, I just want to tell you something about

myself. There are things that I'm watching on porn that I really like, but I don't want to do them. Here are some of the things. And then look, babe, I'm sorry, but I looked at your porn history. I just want to know you better. I'm curious. And I know that we don't always want to do the things that we see, but I saw something. And I just have some questions for you about them. And, you know, presume that it's going to be defensive, maybe, but timing to rip and tone. And then the other thing I would suggest is, instead of catastrophizing that he's secretly a guy who wants to drug and rape women, which I don't think we have any indication of that whatsoever. Instead of assuming that, just assume, again, that people's fantasies are not necessarily

things that they want to do. It doesn't make them bad people. And hey, would it be fun to roleplay that, like, your tipsy and you have really hot sex with them? I mean, there's a way to do this in an accepting way. And there's a way to do it that I want to make this point that it expands their mutual sexual menu. And she can say what she likes and corners.

What is she like? I love that we're bringing it back to that. And I love that you're bringing to she did snoop and we have to always acknowledge that. So let's go back to like what we can learn though and just a reminder like you said fantasies, there's different kinds of fantasies. There's the ones that we just want to think about and then there's the ones that we want to act on. And so it's also good to get clarification on that.

Let's talk about like where we can actually learn from porn. So I think again, I have a conversation with your partner, like you said with the tabs, like, hey, I want to try something with you. I'd love to explore a little porn together and see where it leads. Would you be into that? And then if your partner says yes,

you can pick out a film together and find things that you both like. It may be your fun date night assignment is that you each find a porn scene that you think is hot and see if you get a rouse watching it. And then again, remember going back to sexual intelligence, going back to smart sex, another pillar is collaboration.

That is a real learning exercise using porn to prompt a conversation about what you like and what you don't like. This could be a position you want to try, a fantasy. Maybe it's side-by-side porn viewing where you can share this experience together, learn about yourself in the process. So this is like a fun date and like turn that porn negativity into something because like when they said not going anywhere, our dissident ancestors were watching porn. How do we make it work for us rather than against us?

Also, there is some other kinds. There's different ways to also approach porn to think about that, you know, edge you porn, like there's some educational porn, so there are some suggestions for that where you can learn some skills. I think we have to be tricky about this because again, I think we're also saying that porn is not often very accurate, but maybe you could learn some good oral sex tips from porn. Yeah, you know what I learned? I learned reverse cowgirl.

These guys were that I was having sex with, had all these super creative fun positions that I had literally never thought of, and they got them from porn. And I loved these positions and I literally never would have thought of them. And I was like, wow, these guys are mind blowingly creative.

And one of them was honest and was like, when's this from porn. It's called porn. It was like, it's like the contemporary Connoisseur. I love it. Porn can help us exactly. It can help us earn positions. It can help us learn how to feel comfortable talking dirty.

You can maybe learn to squirt. Like you see a lot of different squirting positions. You could learn how to have a threesome. Perhaps it could show you some different creative positions. Whether you want to have a threesome or you want to fantasize about a threesome. Know that, that all of it is for learning, but some of it you can be inspired. Another thing is audio or rottica. Audio or rottica has been very popular in recent years. Sometimes we don't love it. We don't love it. But visually it allows us to insert ourselves into the equation, right? So, that's so true.

And some of the audio retica has like, you can again learn dirty talk, there's some sexy stories. You know, it can also walk you through how to touch yourself. Some of these ideas help you learn to masturbate. So, yes. And these are great. And just, you know,

what can I say one thing about the Scorning thing? Just watch my tutorial with Kenneth Play, where he I squirt for the first time in my life. It's online, it's available. But we'll get me linked in the show notes. Sure. Do you guys want to see Wednesday learn to squirt in the show notes?

And what I want to say about that is, OK. That's done. I didn't mean to drop that bomb, but Kenneth play is super talented and there are educational videos about that kind of thing like the one he and I did, but there are also porn videos about it where it's super fake and the woman has like gallons of water put up into her vagina and shoots it out. So just that's not realistic. Don't let that stress you out.

And the other thing I wanted to say is, Emily, you have said this before. You have said such great things before. You have gotten really specific before and said things like, look, go, look at part, and see what genres do you like? Are they coming up again and again? How do they make you feel?

Is it something that you wanna do or you wanna leave in the realm of fantasy? Is it something that you want to do or you want to leave in the realm of fantasy? Is it something that you want to do or you want to just talk about? What are the things that turn you off? Why do they turn you off? What are your absolute no-go porn categories? And why? I mean, this is great advice that you have given people in your book and in general in your life. And I think it's really important for people to not feel ashamed to go use porn as a

tool to learn more about themselves. Not just this, but deep knowledge. Deep knowledge and just be questioning, just like anything you read or any news you watch, like you have to always have that eye of, is this real? What am I learning here? Take what you like and leave the rest. My son and anthropologist, they just also want to say Emily and I know that you have received emails like this, but I want to say as somebody who's an addict and does Alan on an AA and I've been to slow on the evening, even though I'm not supposed to say it,

I'm going to say it because it's a really good resource, sex and love addicts anonymous, for some people that's a really good resource. But what I want to say is as an anthropologist, I do really feel cautious about how we throw around the term porn addiction. And I threw it around myself when I threw it at my husband. And it was, in my case, it was absolutely faceless. But look, unless you're not able to go to work, unless it's ruining your relationship with a person who has informed views about porn, not a person who's

coming from a prudish or just say no, mind fed, or religious background. As long as it's not impeding your functioning in life. I mean, it's a very high bar to actually be a porn addict. So I would just hope that we would, as a culture, maybe stop using the term porn addiction every time somebody's using porn in a way that we don't like, get a little more mindful about it, research a little bit more about what porn addiction is,

and you could read the work of David Lay, who's a person who says that he thinks it's one of the most overused diagnoses in the United States right now, and it doesn't even exist in the DSM-5, which is the diagnostic criteria that psychologists and psychiatrists use. I just wanted to say that about porn addiction because I hear the term a lot. Do you hear the term a lot, Emily? I do. And I'm so glad you brought up the works of David Ley, L.E.Y. I think that's important. I think you're right. I really hesitate to use the word addiction. What I thought, I said, maybe it's your burlion ton porn. Maybe it's become sort of an obsession for you, but to say that

it's an addiction, I do agree that it is problematic. So, Wednesday, March, my dear friend and guest co-host today, this has been fabulous. You really helped here break down the nuances of porn. What I got is like, it is here to stay. There's a lot to learn from it. We understand why it's problematic, and I think that there's been a lot of tools here

for people to get it to work for them, rather than against them. And I also wanna say, you can also say, you know what? I actually hear everything you're saying, and I'd rather just be more mindful during sex. I'd rather just talk to my partner. Not for everybody. You don't have to like porn.

Right. So are there any final things Wednesday that you'd like to say? I just think that this was fantastic. Yeah, but final thing maybe I might wanna say is yes, porn is here to say yes I just think that this was fantastic. Yeah, but the final thing maybe I might want to say is yes, porn is here to stay. Yes, it's a new ecology. It's a new opportunity.

But I want to just back you up here. If you don't like porn, there's nothing wrong with that. And you don't have to end a relationship with somebody because you don't like to use porn and they do like to use porn. And I also want to end what I say, my observations on your point. Think of porn as a wonderful, beautiful, sexy opportunity for collaboration. That's what I would say. Dr. Emily Morris. Well, I love when you have me on, I love co-hosting with you. You're the best, Dr. Emily Morrison. Everybody needs to buy Smart Sex because there's great stuff about porn and Dr. Emily Morrison's

new book. Smart Sex. You think you know her, you think you know everything that she said because you listen to all her podcasts, but you don't. Smart Sex has a bunch of stuff in it that I didn't know and I consider myself a sex expert. So make sure you get it. By the way, Emily, Smart Sex is my host this gift this summer. I bought 10 copies of it. Anybody who invites me to anything, that's the gift that I'm bringing this summer. Oh my God. Wednesday that is beautiful. Thank you so much. You were such a dear friend. And if you want to hear more Wednesday, she's been on the show Todd. So check out her

episodes. We did a beautiful interview about smart sex and so many things. And Wednesday, where can people find you you because I know you're also answering people's questions on your Instagram. I do. I do. So can we share that with people where they can find you? Sure, I'm, yeah, thanks darling, that's sweet of you. I'm mostly on Instagram and it's at Wednesday, Martin, PhD.

That's me, come along, follow, ask questions, and buy Emily's book. I love it. And by Wednesday's books too. Let me just say this is like mutual, but like untrue game changer. Private's a park avenue bestseller. We'll link to all of this, but Wednesday is a many time bestseller of many things.

So. And a big fan of Dr. Emily Morse. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for having me on. Thank you for doing it. Thanks for being here. We love you! That's it for today's episode, see you on Friday! Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily!

Be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at Sex with Emily. Oh, I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sexwithemily.com and while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. If you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating, or relationships, call my hotline 559 Talk Sex. That's 559 825 5739. A go to sexwithemily.com slash Ask Emily. Special thanks to A-Cast for powering the Sex with Emily podcast.

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