Shawn Ryan Show - #45 Bob "Ninja" Poras - CIA / Delta Force Operator | Part 1

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

Bob "Ninja" Poras has us wondering where he got his call sign. He spent most of his career in the shadows. Some days "AWOL", but most of them fighting as the tip of the spear with 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment–Delta (1st SFOD-D), and eventually - working for the CIA as a GRS operator.   He covers lessons in leadership and the perfect grenade toss while operating in Panama during 'Just Cause,' his first brush with the same Delta squadron that would later be his own. We later learn where the famous trope "this is my safety" originated from. We wrap up part one of this two-part series with Pablo Escobar, Bosnia ops with German GSG 9, and more.  Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://hvmn.com - USE CODE "SHAWN" Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Bumble. Bumble believes your mental well-being should be a top priority. It's why they're committed to providing in-app tools to support mental health while dating, like their safety and well-being center, which has helpful resources to combat dating fatigue and anxiety. And with smooth mode, you can take applause from dating while you focus on yourself. Bumble even released a new suite of self-care badges and prompts for your profile. It's a simple way to show your commitment to self-care. Take care of you! Then download Bumble today!

This episode is brought to you by Taukaya Tree. Talking about mental health isn't always easy. Finding care should be. Meet Taukaya Tree. They offer virtual in-network psychiatry to treat the most common mental health conditions, like depression, anxiety, OCD, and trauma. Within a week, they can match you with a doctor who takes insurance and takes the time to listen. Get started at tokiatree.com slash start. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com slash start. Hey everybody, we got a two-part series for you coming this one. This is the first one ever.

Hey everybody, we got a two-part series for you coming this one. This is the first one ever. This one's about my friend Callsign Ninja. He was a former Delta operator Did an entire career over at the US Army most of Liches and special operations and then he did another career It's CIA where I met Ninja. Ninja was my boss over there. Second part of this series is something like you all have never seen before and will probably never get the opportunity to witness again. It's an inside look. It's some of the events that went on at CIA when myself and Ninja were both working over there. It's a conversation between two former operators on some very serious significant events

that happened during our time there. I think you guys are really going to appreciate and get a lot out of that. It's probably never going to happen again on any other channel, getting it right here. And I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here this whole time. We've done a lot of different interviews.

You guys have stuck around no matter how much I change it up and I just wanna say I love you and I appreciate you guys for that. If you like this channel, please like, comment, and subscribe. And if you're feeling extra generous, sign up for the Sean Ryan Show Newsletter. It's in the link and go over to iTunes

and spot a fine leave us a review. Love you all, enjoy the show. See you next week. Ninja welcome to the show man. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We've been trying to get this one going for a minute. Yeah, and Finally got your retirement out of the agency. Congratulations. Yes. Thank you. How's it feel being a dirty civilian? Great. Yeah Fucking amazing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but so retired from Army primarily special forces special operations all the way up to the tier one unit transition over to contracting then another full career over at CIA freshly retired congratulations now you're getting into the training game and you have a new

affiliation with Glock, right? Yeah, that's Penn Institute becoming at another month or so in October time frame. We'll see how that works out, but that's looking great right now. Yeah, that's I love Glock, man. Yeah, you know, all these other companies, they spend all this money and they buy all the influencers and fucking Glock, they just don't need it. Yeah. There should just works. Just works, yeah.

All the time. That is reliable as they can get, right? Yeah. That's the claim to fame and that's what they're sticking to. Stick with the basics, right? Yeah. That's cool, man. I love that company.

Yeah. I'm glad he found a way to weasel. And you're not alone with that company because there's a lot of glocks on the street. Yeah. That's very true. So getting into the training game, do you have anything specific

that you want to train people in? There's so many different aspects of the training world. There is. So everything from law enforcement, military tactics, those kind of things as well. But also for the rest of the population that has guns, just wants to know how to use it more effectively.

Go into the market, just shopping, just living their lives with the gun. How do you do that without being conspicuous or those kind of things? Just conceal carry stuff, but being comfortable with it and what exactly, how do you do it? On-body carry, off-body carry,

in handbags for women, in backpack. What, however they want to do it, women with kids who are young and who have other bags, right, those kind of things, how do I do this? If that's what they want to do, if that's their situation, tailor that training to, however their situation is. Women with a child and a diaper bag, what do you do? Right, if that person wants to carry a gun

for self-defense, what do you do for carrying groceries? Go to the grocery store, in a mall, any number of places, how do you do that effectively? So a lot of situational type stuff. Like real situational stuff. So everybody in the world where we came from, it's all tactical and you're tack geared out from head to toe and it's a direct action kind of thing.

But now every day life. And I think that's, you know, they need some education as well. And then confidence in using their weapons, whatever they plan on bringing. Yeah, I mean, I think you're the perfect guy for that, especially coming from CIA. You know, a lot of that job that we did is not full on assault, kicking indoors, doing D.A.'s as a lot of it is, permissive environments blending in, having a head on a swivel, that kind of stuff. Do you have a certain client

that you have a picture perfect client that you're trying to hit, or whoever? No, yeah, not really. So that's probably one of the things on marketing stuff, right? Who would I target? But really, how do you appeal to anyone who wants to use their weapon effectively?

Pistol size, different, whatever they have. How to carry it effective. How to be more efficient with whatever it is they have, which gives them more confidence to do whatever it is they're doing. Just to live their daily lives. Yeah. Because that is a transition for some folks.

Comber some, they don't have to just wear special clothing. You know, so that's what I want to do. Like, dispel a lot of the myths that everybody has. And that might have them reluctant to carry right now. They have a gun, but they don't want to carry because they have to get different. They think they have to get different clothing or anything like that.

Maybe, maybe not. So that's kind of whoever or anything like that. Maybe, maybe not. So that's kind of whoever wants to do that. The younger folks, the older folks that they want to carry a gun and be effective with it for their personal self-defense, how to do that. Women with kids, you know, a baby in one hand, a toddler in another hand, you know, what are they going to do if that's their situation? And that person wants to carry it a gun for cell defense. All those other folks, not all,

no camouflage, no, you know, multi-cam stuff, no helmets with knives, none of that stuff. But also, you know, some of that too, because I know all about that as well. But now for the everyday citizen who carries firearm, how can it be done more effectively? Yeah, where do you think the biggest demand is on the training market? You think it's Ellie, Nodz, Helmets?

Well, there is always that. Or do you think it's everyday people with, because I mean crime is, it's skyrocketing now. And that's what I think a market is, but they don't tend to reach out because they're seeing all the stuff when they start looking at things on websites. It's all tactical gear. It's all law enforcement military.

No open enrollment courses, unless it's a basic NRA course or a basic firearms course or something like that. And I get it, there's a lot of safety concerns with pulling a gun from a purse, pulling a gun from a handbag, pulling a gun from undergarments, and all that kind of stuff. But that's the trick, right? Set up an environment where it's going to be safe for them

to do that. So it's not a big bulk. It's not everybody online, you know, shooting a drill at a uni-directional range. But the best set them up for success, right? This is the environment you're going to be in, so set them up for that environment they're going to be in. And it's going to be safe for them. It's going to be safe for everybody else on the range. So it's not a lot of people might be a smaller, even an individual that wants to know how to do that more effectively.

And then open up to the best that you can, or the best that I can, a 360 degree scenario for them, so they can do it effectively, efficiently, a 360 degree threat, you know, situational awareness, and then present them, you know, a threat target in their particular environment. Something they could do it safely. And so they'll confidence in their ability to do that.

Just like any other firearms training and a lot of things, it's repetitions. Get the reps in. Practice, practice, practice. And the more you do it, the better you get. And the more you do it, the less you want to do it, right? Yeah. So it's a far arm is a last resort thing. So what are the things also leading up to that point?

That's the other thing. Yeah, you know, the conversation we had down, downstairs earlier, where you were talking about, you went to, I don't want to mention any names or locations, but you went to a major metropolitan area. You had a private client and you were talking about mindset training. Brought them into a rough neighborhood,

we'll just call it a rough neighborhood. And you want to talk, I mean, I don't know anybody that's doing that. And that's probably the single, I mean, most informative reality check that you can give somebody is to put them in a situation like that and be like, what are you gonna do?

Yeah. So, very fortunate that this person had access to a home that was similar to theirs. So they were in a real estate business. And they had a vacant home that we could use for training. And it was with real guns, no ammo, dry fire, but it was how to walk around their house. What are the dead spots in their house?

What should I be concerned about? How can I effectively, and it had front or train it? How can I move around my own house efficiently and effectively? So I went through the whole thing about your house and a lot of people don't know their house to the extent that they think they know. Lights are out and it's dark and now walk around your house with the lights out. Then what do you have is a fire. If you have a fire arm, then what do you have on your fire arm to be able to use the sites? Iron sites, illuminated sites, red dot sites, whatever it is.

And I had several for them to look at in their scenario. How to effectively move toward a threat inside of a confined space like a home. A lot of the things that I was able to convey in display for this client was it's not always a straight line from point A to point B is the best way to go. It's like a circumvented route to open up their view and this stay away from the threat as much as possible. You don't have to always close the threat. That was the main thing that person thought is that have to close the threat as much as possible. You don't have to always close your threat. That was the main thing that person thought is that have to close the threat with that person.

Well, you have a side arm, it's plenty of distance, that side arm can reach that distance, so that's the distance you're working with and that's what I was able to convey to that person, which then kept them a little bit more calm because I was a little bit of anxiety to think about. I got to close the threat, or close the distance with the threat that somebody's in my house, I don't know who it is, and now I have to close the distance with that person.

So that was another thing. They initially thought and I gave them another avenue to stay away, keep distance and still move through the house and clear it. Make sure it was safe. Can we paint a scenario to that real quick? Because I don't think a lot of people listening are gonna understand what you're saying. So let's bring it into like a hallway scenario

where maybe you're peering out of a room and I'll let you explain it. But when it comes to closing the distance, you don't always have to do that, and I'd like you to explain a little bit more on why. Yeah. So this person had a two-story home. All the bedrooms were upstairs, and this scenario was late at night. Everybody's in bed asleep, and this person, they have a house, a home invasion situation.

He wanted to know, one, should he carry a gun? What are the processes he needs to go through? So initially it was planning. Planning and describing to his family members, he had three children, I believe, and his wife. And he just telling them, sorry, how had a convey to them that if this happens, somebody comes to the house at night and it's not one of us and this is what we're faced with, this is what I want you to do.

Whether it's a stand room, he had a room that was, because he was consolidated, two of the kids were in one room. One kid goes, the older kid was gonna go with the other two kids, hunker down there, wife is gonna go over there and then get accountability.

So that was the first thing, right? Tell the family what to do. And that was free in his mind of, okay now I gotta deal with the threat. My family knows what to do, they've rehearsed it, they've gone through it over and over. And that was the first step. And then what he, so if they're on the second floor,

it doesn't even have to go downstairs. And what should he do first, right? Well, 911, he's in the States, so that's the first thing you do 911. And then he said, well, that ties up my hand with the phone now. I said, well, just turn it on. Just make the call, put it on speaker. And if you have a pocket, put it in the pocket

and then just leave it there. Leave your the call, put it on speaker. And if you have a pocket, put it in a pocket, and then just leave it there. Leave your phone on and talk through the speaker. Or don't even worry about the speaker if it's too much. Just leave it on. They can hear you and somebody's rolling. That was the big thing. Get somebody rolling a lot of forcement to your location.

And then speak openly. Like you're speaking into the phone, you don't have to have it up to your head or have earbuds in or anything like that. Just speak normal language, or speak softly into it if you don't want to conceal your or disclose your location. But accountability of your folks,

you know, 911, accountability of your family, they're okay and now what? So I went from top of the stairway, this could be your limit of advance. This could be as far as you go. And you make the decision whether you need to go downstairs or not. What are the things that you need to be concerned about

if you wanna go downstairs or not? You can stay there and defend your second floor because they have to come up if there's a threat. They have to come up. And if that's what they wanna do, you're there to meet them, right? And take care of the threat. But why go downstairs to begin with?

Yeah. So that was the first, that was like one major decision point. And because he originally thought, I got to go down there and address the threat. It's like, no, they're down there. And you're, you already know your family's safe, then what else do you need to do? The cops are coming, whenever they come,

and this particular place, it was a fairly lengthy response time because of where they were at and the police department in the area and all that stuff. And then all the other things that are going on now. So what's the priority? You don't know their priority on the call out and who they're sending when they're sending them, but you made the call somebody's coming.

So you could just hold your ground right there. Then we went through, okay, now if he has to go downstairs, how would he move downstairs? So best case, hold your ground right there. The police are coming, my family's safe, that's all I need to do. Whoever it is downstairs, do whatever they're doing and leave, if that's the case. Your family's safe, that's all you're concerned about. Stuff is stuff. And if you're concerned about something downstairs,

if somebody's downstairs, one of your family members, or you have guests that are in a guest bedroom downstairs, what she had, then okay, that's the reason to go check on your guests. But also knowing their sleep habits, do they get up in the middle of the night and go get a drink of water or have to go to the bathroom at night? You know, if you have guests in your home, know that. You know, they're sleep habits, because that could be all it is.

And if it's, if my decision, if their decision was to go downstairs, then how do you go downstairs at night when the lights are out without turning all the lights on? Or turn the lights on, you know, that's another decision they have to make. You know, it's really common-sense stuff, but unless you go through it, you know, step by step and then have them ask questions, and I posed all the questions that he asked back on him, right? I was like, oh, well, what would you do? You're in the situation right now. With that situation, you just described to me,

what would you logically do? You don't have to be difficult. You don't have to refer to any movies that you've seen. What would you do? What makes sense to you? And then just act on it. Trust your instincts, all those things. He could be scared. You know, there could be a little fear going on. All right. Well, that's normal. Yeah.

It was one thing I told him. It's like, well, that's going to be normal. Your kid might be yelling, you know, how, how, you know, they bet they're going to be concerned about your safety. So consider that. Maybe you're still with an eyesight of your family and your concern family members for you. And if you disappear downstairs, then now they're more concerned now you have other issues to worry about. So it's not always go to guns and direct action, you know, commando raid your house. Yeah. And clear it. maybe probably not. If you have the house to enable those kind of things, accountability of your people,

and then that's it, wait for the police to arrive. But I just saying that a lot of people, a lot of trainers don't talk about that enough, I don't think. And yeah, probably not, and I haven't heard a whole lot of that. Because it's usually on a flat range, and they're discussing these things without being in an actual facility that makes sense to people. A real kitchen counter that they have to walk around that creates dead space for them. Or it's on a range where they create these false floor plans, right?

It's not their floor plan, but, and that's really, most of the stuff I was describing in this guy is, know your house. Make your house negotiable in the dark, and then do it. Have your kids do it. Have your, in the case you have to run out, even in emergencies. And that's the one thing I described to him. It's not always like a physical threat or a home invasion kind of thing, but this applies to natural disaster stuff.

Fires, if they're in hurricane places, tornado, alley, or any of these other places, if your family has to get out, maneuver around your house, know your house so you could do that without the lights. And that's so that was another thing that kind of calmed him down to the scenario that he was describing. It was a threat scenario that I have to get my sidearm and maybe use it. But I said, well this this scenario, this plan can go across the board for any emergency. So you don't have to tell your kids in case somebody comes in here with the gun and there's gunfire and this is what we're going to do. It's if

you have a fire, hurricane, tornado, natural disaster, floods, this is what we're going to do. And it's not, I've heard from folks, it's like they don't want to live in fear They don't want to live in fear and go through these contingencies with fear in mind. Like I'm afraid of something and now I'm going to have a contingency for that. But it's just preparedness. And that was another thing he was, I think his wife mentioned that. Like, I don't want to live my life in fear waiting for this happen. I was just like, well, it's preparedness. If you do this enough times, repetition for this happen. It's like well, it's preparedness If you do this enough times repetition practice and practice and practice it's gonna come to you and any emergency that happens

It's not always a firefight. Yeah, that was gunfight. It's not as a bag out of the gun It's all these other things and then that made sense to them Count it out. Okay, then it came then it was easier for them to like You know take it all in and say, okay, this means something more than just that one incident. Yeah. This is a scenario. That was great. I had a great time doing it. They had a great response afterwards. Let's talk about what you did in the city with them, because that kind of training is extremely unique.

Nobody's doing that. Yeah, that was a situational awareness thing. So from operational activity, you know, in either the agency or my previous life in the military, it's situational awareness. How to become aware without being paranoid and afraid of things, but just being aware of things that happen in the area. Read the news articles, listen to the crime reports,

and all that stuff, and be aware of those things. First of all, that's your homework that's just living in anywhere. It's worse than some places than others. But be aware of those, whether it's a home invasion or on the street crime, pickpocketers, whatever it is. There's a lot of that stuff going on now, so they just have to do their homework. And then not deny that it's happening. That's the mindset thing. Be aware that it is happening. And another thing is, well, it'll never happen to me, right? So then changing their minds, like, okay, we'll just put yourself in a mindset of, okay, well, what if it does?

Then what would you do? Common sense things. So that's a regular situation where, look looking in like storefront glass to look behind you so you don't make it weird for themselves or you to look around like your paranoid paranoid like it's somebody following me. But just to do those simple little things.

Look in the storefront window and use the glass as a mirror behind you to see if anybody's following you and has picked you out as a target. And it's those kind of things. Walk into a store. See who comes into the store with you. If they look like they need to be in that store, then fine. But if they look like they don't need to be in the store that you're in, it doesn't look like they're kind of storefront that they're usually frequent,

then okay, maybe that's something you need to be concerned about. Yeah. Yeah. There are kids with babies. Go into a small kid's store, you know, with infant, toddler clothing and baby clothes. And if a person that looks like they don't need to be, they don't belong there, those should be, you know, indicators of maybe they're up to something, no good. Yeah, it's all those things. People want to do the car thefts. And they're smart. They wait for you to go to your car and open the car forum, right? So before you go to your car, you know, what do you look at in a parking lot when you're walking to your car? Where do you have

your car keys, all that kind of stuff? Before you leave an establishment to go to your car, what do you have in your hands? Your car keys, flashlight if it's dark, if there's something on your keychain that you can have a light with, noise makers, whistles, whatever it is, and be aware of your environment. Where's your phone? Did you just, for the folks that carry purses and handbags,

is it just thrown in there and you got a dig for it? Or is it somewhere where you know, you stick your hand in it, pull it out, and there's your phone. 911. All this things, basic stuff, but basic commonsense stuff, but often overlooked. And unfortunately, there's bad guys out there waiting for those people who are not paying

attention to take your stuff, to take your cars, to take all that stuff. What do you think the biggest mistake is that civilians make when it comes to mindset or situational awareness? Think it can't happen to them. Yeah. And story after story after story. And that's some homework even folks can can you on their own. And that's exactly what they say afterwards. Somewhere in their narratives afterwards when they're telling their story, they'll say, I just never thought it can happen to me. Damn. It's a pretty common theme when they tell a story after the fact,

whether that's anything, a physical confrontation, something was stolen from them, or a car theft, or something like that. So they never prepared for it. And it could be just like, here you go. You know, goodbye. I don't need to fight you right now. Go ahead and take my stuff

Give me my phone and give me my gun and take the rest of it, right? Or whatever it is whatever they come up with as a plan, but they're prepared for it and that's what happens. Yeah Well, we'll link all your All your website social media stuff on the bottom. So anybody that wants to Get trained up can contact you. Sure. And let's get into your backstory now, but first, oh God. Yep, everybody gets a gift. What are we talking about?

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If you want the other kind, you're going to have to get them somewhere else. Thank you, sir. You're welcome. The average on-farm income in the United States was a loss of $1,100. 60% of US pork comes from one company wholly owned by the Chinese, and farmers are more likely to commit suicide than veterans. Folks, we got a problem. I'm Lucinda, a generation farmer and founder of Moink.

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Now it's official. Now it's official. Getting into the meat potatoes of everything. But, so, phenomenal career in the military, phenomenal career at CAA, retired from both. I don't know if you know this, but, I mean, we worked at the same department over at CIA and you are probably actually without a doubt,

I would say the most well-respected individual in that department. So it's just a real honor to have you on this show. And I still remember the first time we were at the same location and the rumors flying around about you and all positive. We'll get into some of those later. But I just wanted to say that I don't know if anybody's ever told you that.

But yes, you're definitely one of the... No, but thank you. I appreciate it. You're welcome. I was just doing my job. Yeah, well you did a damn good job. So I was proud to work with you. I know everybody else was too. But so let's start with childhood. Where'd you grow up? Yeah, Born and raised in Southern California. So born in Palm Springs area. And then most of my life in the Los Angeles area, the San Fernando Valley specifically,

went to school there and then ultimately all my childhood until I left to the Army was in the San Fernando Valley in LA. Parents still together? No, so my mother died when I was young. She died of cancer when I was 10. So my dad was a single parent before that became a cool thing to do. So he raised me and my five sisters for most of our lives.

So I was 10. I have two sisters older than me, two sisters younger than me. He had a lot of help, so all my family out there, big Mexican family, they're all in Los Angeles, most of them. So aunts, uncles, cousins, they all helped out when they could, yeah, so it was, it was fun.

It was a good childhood. I thought I had a great childhood. I do not remember any bad times, except for that obviously, it leaves with my mom at a young age. I was, so before that, there was an uncle of mine who died, probably three years before that. So initial, you know, how do you deal with loss right as a 10-year-old and then with my uncle is younger than that But really as a seven-year-old kid don't really clue into what's going on 10 fully aware that my mom had died of cancer

So that was a it was a huge hurdle for a lot of us And then my dad of course more traditional You know Mexican background, family history And now he's a single dad So that was that was a bit much plus he's still working and all these other things so dealt with a lot of those things Did you probably hear more commonly, uh, you know, recently, but back then, nobody that I knew had a single, single parent family. Yeah, none of the, not the kids, none of the neighbors,

none of the kids I hung around with school. Yeah, I'm talking about a different time period. Yeah, you know, yeah, shit, that's everywhere today. I know. Right. time period. Yeah, you know, yeah, shut that's everywhere today I know right and then it was you know, that's why I say before it was cool He is doing it and he did it. Yeah, did a good job. I thought he was great all the things all the Motivations, you know had to be a man, you know He did it step by step, never pushed me

into the military. He was, you know, very loving, caring, whatever, whatever all of us did, me or my sisters did, very supportive, if whatever it is we want to do, any supported, whatever it is that was, never had the military in mind. So he was a former Marine, have several of those for my family. So it's Southern California, that's the thing to do, either Navy or Marines. Okay. Make sense. Yeah. A lot of my cousins, a lot of my uncles, Marines or maybe. I don't recall anybody that joined the army. It's not for my oldest sister.

She joined the army before I did. She's probably five years older than I was. Never had a clue about the army or the military. Other than I knew relatives were in, played army as a kid, ran around with all the, you know, the neighborhood kids playing army. It's nice. But I wasn't thinking, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

So I grew up a younger childhood. So in the 60s, so in late 60s, we're talking, you know, the Vietnam War area, era, a neighbor across the street. And so that's, I'm not watching the news and TV's not a big thing. You know, that was also back when came home from school, did your homework and you got,

you went outside to play. You didn't sit in and watch TV, you didn't play video games or anything like that. So, you go outside and play. A lot of things was either writing bikes, making jumps on bikes and skateboards and all those kids stuff and then playing an army. There was a guy across the street. He was a, he's a bit on bed and I didn't know anything about that, but I guess in his

attempt to get rid of that out of his life. He was always thrown away as uniforms, as helmets and stuff like that. We thought it was cool. We go rummage through the trash and grab his camel, his camel uniforms, and his helmets and stuff like that, and run around the neighborhood. And, you know, he threw away everything. I wish I would have kept it because all of his medals, all that stuff that worked for me. Yeah, he was because all of his medals, all that stuff that went on. Yeah, he was flushed his whole life full of that stuff. Because I do remember him before he went. So he was probably 18, 19, like all of them were at the time when he went to Vietnam.

I remember him before that. I never saw him after he came back, other than his throwing away his stuff. We took his stuff and ran around in the neighborhood like, we were army guys. That was just fun stuff. We were in Doug Tunnels in my backyard because we heard there was Tunnels in Vietnam, right? we heard there was tunnels in Vietnam, right? Doug in the ground, you know, wasn't a big favorite of my dads and the neighbors that we were digging tunnels in the backyard,

but we did it, you know. Yeah, it was all just for fun, just kids having fun. That's awesome. Yeah. So what got you interested in the army other than digging tunnels in the backyard. Well, yeah. Digging through the trash.

So, and I saw the movie, so it was the... Nothing motivating me, like the... Like, that's what I want to do. Like, so whenever, 1969 or whatever, I was still a kid. Whenever the movie, the Green Bray comes out, I watched all the John Wayne Westerns, the Green movie, The Green Bray comes out, I watched all the John Wayne Westerns, The Green movie, The Green Bray, I thought it was the coolest stuff ever,

but never thought, yeah, that's what I wanna do. I just thought it was, yeah, that's cool. Somebody's gonna, you know, those guys were badass. That would be cool, but never thought I was ever gonna do that. And then it was just graduate high school, didn't have the grades to go to college. Cause it was a whole thing about,

you know, what am I gonna do? I even am in high school. It's like, okay, I'll play football. I'll do that. It's like everybody else. That's the thing to do. So, okay, I'll play football. But I wasn't really so into it

that I got so into it that I really got good at it enough to like, this is I want to do in my life So I did all that stuff in high school. It wasn't really a significant thing Wasn't wasn't a bad student, but I really wasn't also motivated to be a great student to go on to college and do things with that Got out graduated go on to college and do things with that. Graduated, well, did normal work during the summers, during high school, summer jobs and stuff like that. So I'm now able to have summer jobs and actually contribute to helping raise my smallest sister, provide some stuff, I see groceries and stuff like that.

Nothing I had to, my dad was doing just fine, but those were some of the things that he taught me to do, it was like, you know, be responsible and do those kind of things and don't spend all your money on, you know, kid stuff. And so yeah, I helped out doing that. So it was like, you know, buying groceries or buying my sister clothes or something like that.

You know, shoes for, you know, before she goes back to school again, you know, all those kind of things. Started all that stuff. So it was kind of, you know, being responsible early, right? And I wasn't ever forced to do it. I wasn't ever told to do it. It was just like kind of instilled in me.

This is what you do as, you know, this is a manhood. Sounds good. That was a great example. My dad was really good at that. Discipline. And it wasn't like a heavy-handed discipline thing. You know, if you screwed up, you were accountable for it. He held you accountable for things that he did wrong

and right, right? Brewer, you if you did good things and then a pickleable punishment or just taking things away, it really is all they did, if you did things bad. So, you know, it kind of would be responsible, it would be responsible for yourself and for me, it was be responsible for my younger sisters, but it was also since I had two older sisters and I had one that was old enough to be in the same middle school and senior high school at the same time and so his thing was you know don't ever let anything happen to your sisters. Right? So that for me, okay it's easy for my little sisters, my younger sisters, because I'm bigger than all the her,

the boys that are harassing them. But for the boys that were older than me, I got, so they're huge, and they're jocks. So they're bigger than me, and they're two or three years older than me. And so it was one of those things, like, you know, I'm standing up to these big guys, like don't mess with my sister.

I'm looking up at them like, yeah, tough guy. Giving them the stink guy, right? And it's just this guy's like, oh, he's so cute. But I was like, that's what my dad told me to do, right? I'm responsible for them. So bow up on these big guys, right? I never had to do anything because that was enough you know they got it and my sister older sister always like you know

build me up like don't make me get my brother right and I'm a little guy right yeah my freshman in high school I'm talking to these seniors, right? And they're like, okay, yeah, whatever, bring your brother on. Here comes little Bobby. Boin up on. You know, yeah, that was all cool. I never had to do anything with that. That was enough for them to get the respect like, okay, good for you, man. You're doing the right thing. In fact, like, okay, good for you, man. You're doing the right thing. And I even saw the kids, and they were talking about the military.

I saw the kids in Rotsie, right? I didn't, that didn't excite me either. So the guys, I thought the Marines that were there and their blues, obviously, it's like, those are some cool uniforms, but I never thought that's what I'm gonna do. Did you have any idea what you wanted to do? No.

Nope, just lost. Yeah. So I got out, went to work for a toy store. And it was a good thing. So they put me in the manager training program. And I say, at this toy store, it's a pretty big one. It's not so much anymore, but you had to work all the departments. So as a young kid at high school, they put me in the doll section to cut my teeth as a manager. And I'm nothing about dolls, but that was the point right. Put me in my you know or take me out of my comfort zone and put me in the doll section to see how see how I work out. So I got to know everything about dolls, the doll houses and Susie bake oven things and all these things that I had no idea. Worked out for me because my little

sister like this stuff, so I got to take it home and free samples. I get to take everything home and she loved it. But no, it was, that didn't seem like, so looking at the managers that were there and that was like the point to get to that point in this toy store,

be a senior manager, general manager and all these other things, sales, and all these other things, sales manager, and all these other things. And I saw the guy say, we're mentoring me, and I was like, I don't know if that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. So I started looking around. And so when I first entertained the idea, drawing the military, everybody does the Marine Corps and the Navy, so that's obviously where I went first.

And Dr. Marine Recruiters, the Navy Recruiters, and one thing my dad said was, if that's what you want to do, son, I support you wholeheartedly, just when you talk to these people, make sure you get something out of it when you get out, that would be applicable in the back in the civilian community. And so he mentioned, and he was working at drug trucks for construction sites, big stuff, big earth moving stuff. He's like, see if you can do that because that's pretty good money in Southern California. And there's always that going on. And so I asked him that. So when I went to the Marine Recurter and asked him that, I want to be bulldozers and front end loaders and big earth moving

stuff and those things. And the Marine Corps has engineers and the Navy has the CVs. And I knew that and I said, this is what I want to do. And I said, well, this is what the Marines, right? This is what we'll do for you. We'll make your Marine. And then I got to, got the feeling of, well, if this is, if this is what we want you to do, then you'll go be an engineer, right? And so I was just thinking, ah, he's not saying exactly what I need to hear. So, how do we go talk to the Navy?

Because I know they have these CB guys that do engineering work, and because guess where I saw that on the movie, The Green Braids, right? I know the CB's drive bulldozers and all this stuff. Let me go see what they have to say. And they weren't giving me a very warm and fuzzy about doing that exactly.

And they take the ads fab and all these other things first and see where I score well or score on these things and we'll see where you go from there. And then I had this, wasn't real comfortable on committing to one of those. So I go to the Air Force and see what they have. And they didn't have anything. They do have that, but something about the Air Force didn't, which was wasn't.

Wouldn't trip in my trigger and connect and how. And so let's go look at the Army. And go talk to the Army guy, talk to the engineering stuff, and he's like, he's like, absolutely. Because we have these engineers, and he's getting this video. And back then, VHS videos, he's like, he gets this video, he's gonna let me watch it in this room. And I'm looking around the walls, and I see all these, screen beret, back then they had this recruitment

poster for Special Forces, and it was a guy waist deep in the swamp with a Rucksack and a 120 rope on his shoulders and Green Beret looks cool going through the swamp. I was like, what's that? I was like, I want to do that. I was like, that's that Green Beret stuff from the movie. Yeah. It's like that sounds cool. And then I saw, you know, these paratrooper recruiting posters, you know, eight second airborne staff in their jumping out of planes and say, how about that? I say, that looks cool. It's like, that's what I want to do. And these dudes in this tank, I was like, I want to shoot tanks, still, I want to drive tanks, right? He's like, well, collier jets, I'll give you some videos to watch and see what you see with interest you best. And we'll take a set up for the take test, the ASPAP and all

other stuff and see where you where you fall. And a bunch of infantry stuff, posters. And it was BL you can be was the slogan at the time. I remember that. Yeah. And one of the only commercials I ever remember seeing about that, well, there's two of them. One was the 82nd Airborne. They're out of drop zone and they have a cup of coffee and it's a good morning for a shark, right? And I saw that one and then there's a ranger who's coming off a plane on leave. He's got his dress greens on and his black beret.

Because that was the only people wearing black berets at the time. And he's getting off the plane and he's just happy to be home. He meets what it looks like his parents and all that stuff was like, that's cool, I want to do that. So there was all these things that I wanted to do in the army. It was like, this is it. This is going to be for me. And then I said about this engineer stuff.

He gives me that. I was like, that's exactly what my dad's talking about. It's where I have an earth moving equipment. And in the army, you do roads and airfields and stuff like that. And that's what I had in mind. And they said, well, we'll take the test and see what you fall on.

I was like, yeah, but if I could do that and all this stuff too, drive tanks, jump out of planes, cream brakes stuff, range of this, all that. Do you guys have a sampler platter? Right. And so eventually I go take the test and he's like, well, forget all this, like all the stuff that I thought was cool. Forget all this. Because the engineering, you needed, you know, of all of those, I think, other than, and

you couldn't just join SF back down off the street. You had to join the Army first and then your second tour where you can join special forces and all that stuff. There weren't, like you have today, like, ranger contracts where off the street you can go to Batayn. You went in the infantry and then from Fort Benning, you were offered opportunities

to go in those directions. I didn't know all that stuff. So it's like one of the things, you'll be a grunt, and then at one point, I'm not aware of you'll get opportunities to do those kind of things. So that wasn't what it is today.

You get a specific contract to go specific places. You just sign a contract, generally speaking, and then you get offered opportunities in this mystical, magical, 41.87, this DA form, 41.87, to apply for other things that doesn't hardly ever work. Come to find out, I come to find out out when I join. But I scored high enough to form a recruiting perspective

apparently to don't, you don't want to go infantry, you don't want to jump out of planes, you don't want to do the tank stuff, and you can't join SF until you get in the military, get in the army first. But you scored high enough and this engineering thing you mentioned is all about you. It's like, we can do that.

So that's what I did. I was like, and then he says, as a recruiter, usually would, you could do all that other stuff later on once you get in. Yeah. But get all your engineer stuff done. You know, your dad wants you to do this. You got a job blocked on when you get out And then once you get in a year or two when she gets to your first duty station

That's what he said put in this form for 187 to do any of these other things that you want to do that never worked out But I got my engineering thing. So I actually like that job. What year is this? What year did you join? This is 81. 81. Yep. I loved it. My first duty session, I didn't know anything about the Army, Army life, other than what my sister told me. my wife, other than what my sister told me. And she was somewhere in the medical field, she was a medic or something like that. She's in Germany, she loved it. And that was her advice.

She's like, whatever you do, get to Europe, you're gonna love it. And my first study session was at Fort Mead, Maryland. I'm the wrong side of the pond in Europe. Yeah. I didn't know. I just signed up things and started hacking off signatures and initials on things and I ended up at Fort Mead, Maryland.

But, learned the whole engineering stuff, all the earth moving equipment, I did all that stuff there. We were on, it was like, it's different from the army in the sense that it's almost like a, you're going to work, like a construction site. So you have typical stuff like morning formations for PT and morning formations for accountability, but then you went to work. We had a road crew, Fort Meade, snows every once in a while, so road clearing teams, stuff like that. And it was like just a regular job. Not so much a traditional structured military thing other than the formations,

stuff like that. But everything else was just like going to work. You put on overalls, you got in your equipment, you did your job, pushed dirt around, spread asphalt, and just like going to work. And I thought that was perfect. I mean, I liked it. This episode is brought to you by Taukaya Tree. Talking about mental health isn't always easy. Finding care should be. Meet Taukietri. They offer virtual in-network psychiatry to treat the most common mental health conditions, like depression, anxiety, OCD, and trauma. Within a week, they can match you with a doctor who takes insurance and takes the time to listen. Get started at Taukietri.com-start. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com-slashstart.

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He said, whatever you do, don't get out. There's apparently he had some regrets that he didn't do all that he said, whatever you do, don't get out. There's apparently he had some regrets that he didn't do all that he thought, all that he wanted to do before he got out of the Marine Corps. So that's what he told me to do. He said, good do it, it'd be great for you. It's very respectful for our country. I mean, yeah, do your job.

You know, do your time for your country. I was like, all right, cool. But when you get out, don't get out with still wanting to do something. Don't leave something undone, right? Get it done while you're there. Otherwise, you're going to regret the rest of your life not having done it. And that's eventually how I end up spending a career in the army. I'd never intended on a career.

Every four years it was like, well, what else do I want to do? Well, I wanted to jump out of planes. Let me put in, let me see if I can get jumping out of planes. So I ended up at Fort Bragg. End up at Fort Benning, go to jump school, end up at Fort Bragg. I mean, the 82nd and all that kind of stuff. You know, and then that time, it's like, what do you do? Well, once you're up for a braggie, you get exposed to a lot of other things.

Now, because then you see green braids running around with their green braids and all this other stuff, and then you get that exposure. So then I get that itch to do all these other things. Hold on. What did you do in the 82nd? I was still an engineer. Okay. So, this, this, this, this itch I had. So my first duty at Ducatia Fort Mead, that unit gets sent up the Fort Drum, which is now

going to go do before a 10th Mountain gets activated and they get deployed or assigned there and it's active. We're going there as engineers to clear the ground. Make ranges, clear the forest, really clear the trees of the construction sites that are going to be the barracks in ultimately the 10th Mountain Division. So this is early 80s. And I get this itch as I'm, and this goes forward, well, my time at Bragg in 82nd, and I'm trying to get to first-range of a tie-in at her army airfield down in Georgia, right? I'm on staff duty. I'm a runner. I'm like, it would private something. And I'm just the guy sitting at a desk all night. I don't have nothing to do. So I'm looking through this phone book.

And at the time, all the gung-home magazines and all the soldier fortune magazines, that's what you have in your rooms and the staff duties and all your duty areas. So I'm reading all these things. And I was like, hey, I gotta do this. This is for interested. And this is before it was a regimen.

It was just the two battians, first battalion in Georgia and second battalion in Washington state. And I go down the Army phone book at the Staff Duty desk, and I look up first, 75th headquarters down, it's the Hunter Army airfield, and look up the office numbers and I called down there

almost a PFC maybe a E3. They answered the phone and it's another guy like me a PFC that's sitting up the phone and a desk doing nothing. He answers the phone and this is this is in a minute of the night and I just said hey I want to be a ranger how do do I do that? And this guy, another PFC, he puts me in touch with the NCO that's there. And he said, well, where are you at? And I was at camp drum at the time. It was not even a fort yet. And he didn't know where that was. I said, well, I'm in this unit. I'm at Camp

Drum. And I want to know how to be a ranger. And that's when it started. He said, call back in the morning and talk to this art major. And for all the folks who watch this, they know who the art major carpenter is. He's a legend in First Ranger Battalion and regiment, really. And I talked to him in the morning and he took the call. Yes. So it was a staff star in first, talked to E7. And I'm not sure that they actually knew what to do with me on the phone. And eventually talked to this our major carpenter and He said well, this is what you need to do. He's Go to jump school You got to change your MOS because you don't have your MOS your military occupational specialty engineers We don't have engineers and in the range of time

So you have to do 11 Brawba, some were, and he's describing how to do all this stuff. But first thing, first step, first, go to jump school. You can do that from any unit in the Army. And then from there, talk to the Ranger Battalion recuder, who's going to be at, he has me a building number, and all this stuff near Airborne School and do all that stuff.

Ultimately, that doesn't work out. So I got to jump school and where did this enemy to brag? And on Benaz to me at the time, there's an engineer company that's there, that's in the 82nd. And I get there right after Grenada. So Grenada happens and a couple of the guys from the unit that I'm going to you were the ones that jumped in with the rangers on the airfield to get they had bulldozers and construction equipment on the airfield to block it

from anybody landing right. So they jumped in to get on the equipment to get it off the airfield so then the air land folks can come in and start, you know, using the air strip. So initially I thought that was kind of cool. I was like, well, this is like you guys, they just, I got there when everybody was still gone from leave after Grenada. So it was a ghost town when I got there. And then I find out that two or three of the guys that were in the company that I was in were the ones that were the jumped in with the Airfield

seizure team with the Ranger Battalion to go clear the airfield. And for them, go to the bulldozers and all the construction equipment and get it off the airfield so the airplanes can land. So I thought that was kind of cool, but that's where I made the transition. I worked with a company, the 325th infantry regiment. They're at 82nd to get cross train so you can OJT for different MOSs at the time. So you can OJT for different MOSs at the time. My I wanted to get, because our major carpenter said,

you have to get your 11 Bravo. You have to be in 11 Bravo to be here. So I cross-trained to do that. Then the Army had different things in mind. And they got rid of the OJT for MOS program. And then I had to go to Benning to get my 11 Brawl Infantry Designator. And I was at E4 I think at the time and that was interesting.

So there is no break, like the difference between basic training and advanced individual training AIT for grunts. There's no real break, you just go straight through the whole thing. So where do you start? Is this my first thing? I already know how to march. I don't know how to be a soldier.

I'm already a corporal in the 82nd Airborne Division. I didn't know how to do a lot of things. So, but where do you, that was their dilemma. Where do we put these guys? I was there with another E4. From the 82nd, he was a Leaven Hotel, a tow gunner, and he had to get a Lembravo, because he's trying to do the same thing.

He's trying to get the range of a time. Well, they eventually just let us get into one of the groups that's going into their end of cycle, infantry test out phase. So last three or four weeks of their advanced individual training. And it worked out. And somewhere along the lines, I get my infantry designator and Army has bigger plans for me than what I wanted to do because I'm trying to get to Savannah, Georgia But meanwhile there's a third battalion now that's up banning. It's a Regid regiment all this thing has already happened and all this process of mine and

I'm aware of this so at the end of this When I soon as I get my 11 Bravo, I thought I was going back to Fort Bragg first, check, you know, out process there and then go into one of the range of battliance. I volunteered for that and then make my way into range of battalion. That was what I had written down early on in midnight, one o'clock in the morning and whatever that was, and then some major carpenters telling me all these things to do.

And I'm going step by step. Well, at the end of this infantry designator, I get orders to fort or California. I don't even exactly. Where the hell is that? Exactly. That's what I said. first to Fort or California. I don't even, exactly. Where the hell is that? Exactly, that's what I said. And I said, I'm thinking to myself that, that I don't even know what that is. Who's there, but I'm trying to get to Savannah, Georgia.

And they started this whole seventh, seventh-inventory division is reactivated huge history, And they started this whole seventh, seventh infantry division is reactivated. Huge history, which ends up pretty decent, decent assignment for me. But it's this new cohort thing. And as a new E4 promotable, they needed all the younger infantry guys to go staff this new division there

that's being reactivated in Fort O'Coe. It's in Monterey, California. Never knew that before then. Wow. Yeah. And it's, I guess the only other thing that's out there is the Defense Languages too, in Monterey.

Well, four dords there. It's been there forever since it's got a World War II history and all this other stuff That's what training base back then and I never heard of it until then and There is a whole Shit show of things that happens after that because that's not where I wanted to go So I literally walked across base and signed into the regiment headquarters, which is interesting.

Interesting in the fact that it was in the old, it's not where it was it is now. So when that, the initial regiment headquarters, it was all barracks, When that, the initial regiment headquarters, it was all barracks, three story barracks, had a fence around it with the green screen around it, and then there was a little buzzer at the gate if you ring the buzzer, then whoever's sitting on duty at the desk will ask who's there, what do you want,

what's your business, and all this other stuff. And I ring this buzzer, did the same thing that it did a couple of years ago on the phone. Ring the buzzer, they come back and say, what are your business? And I said, I want to be a ranger. Have a sensational summer with H.E.B. brand products born and raised to be Texas favorites. Guaranteed. Spice up your backyard barbec HB Prime 1 B. Fiesta

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So he comes out, put this black brae on and he halts me at the bottom. So there's steps to go up to the time. So he comes out, put this black beret on and he halts me at the bottom. So there's steps to go up to the building. He halts me at the bottom and steps and I come to stop and go to Fredress and he's like, what did you say you wanted? I said, I want to be a ranger. I just came from this training company over here. They got me orders to go here, but this is where I want to be. He said, hold on a minute. He goes back in and he gets the staff start to come out. Staff start comes out and as he's fixing his beret,

he said, what is it you want? I said, I is it you want? I said, I want to be a ranger, and I'm at parade rest. Yeah. And he's like, I want to, I said, I want to be a ranger. He's like, you sure about that? You sure you're in the right place? I said, why did that start?

Immediately, he told me to do push-ups. And then I was doing the wrong push-ups because if my feet weren't on the stairs, I wasn't elevated push-ups. So I was willing to do anything at that point. So I'll get my feet up on the steps. I'm doing elevated push-ups because if my feet weren't on the stairs, I wasn't elevated push-ups. So I was willing to do anything at that point. So I'll get my feet up on the steps. I'm doing elevated push-ups. I'm getting my smoke session. And he disappears. I hear the doors close behind him. Out comes the start first class and he's seven comes out and he said, get up here. So I'm in the front lean and

rest facing down these steps, doing push-ups. And I'm already smoked So I'm in the front lean and rest facing down these steps doing pushups and I'm already smoked. I'm starting the shakes already. He says get up here and so I start to stand up and get up here. He's like no, it's standing and resting and you walk up here on your hands and feet. So I'm walking up. So this is like this is apparently I asked for it. This is what I'm getting. I was just like super motivated. I started walking up backwards. I'm smoked and I finally get up to the top of the steps. And he said, who have you talked to? And I mentioned Sergeant Major Carpenter, who had since moved on to I think the second

infantry division and another Sergeant Major capacity in capacity in Scofil Berkson, Hawaii. So he wasn't in the regiment anymore. He had left to do more bigger divisions, Sarmadir stuff, or I'm not sure of his position, probably division at the second infantry division. But every now and then Sarmadir Carpenter, and he's, so you got this, he's seven, he's smoking me. He's like, you talked to Sarmadir Carpenter, and that's, so you got this, he's seven, he's smoking me. He's like, you talked to Sarmaja Carpenter, and this is what he told you to do.

Yeah. Yeah. I said, Roger that, Sarna, as I'm just still smoked, I'm in a friendly and arrest. He gives me a break, I'm in the Dine Cockroach's position. Now, I was talking to him, my legs and arms are shaking. The Dine Cockroach position. Yeah.

I haven't heard that one in a minute. That was me for a minute, longer than a minute. And it's just a smoke session. He goes to talk to, I don't remember now the names of this our major he talked to. Everybody else know the names of our major Guerrero. He was there. Pretty sure that's who he talked to. I ran into him eventually.

But they're just having me low crawling in the barracks up and down the hallways and doing just I'm godly, you know, just torture tests, muscle failure or anything. Pull a bar was already done. I couldn't do any more pull ups. I could do any more push ups, dying cockroach, my legs, arms were already smoked, but I was just doing anything and everything. I'm low-clawing everywhere. And people are walking around me. All they're bringing up rangers are walking around me,

stepping over me as I'm low-clawing. Cause they know the deal. Yeah, they've been there, done it. And they eventually, all right, they eventually sign in. So I'm, I'm signing the range of regiment. I was the happiest person I could ever be. I was like, yes, I finally made it. I get to go to the, at the time, it's the Ranger indoctrination program that now regiments hosting and doing there at headquarters at Benning. I'm in E4, I'm a corporal,

so I have to go through the RIP and RIP, which range orientation program, range of documentation program. One of them is for junior leaders, going into range of time. The other one is for everybody's RIPIs. That's what I call RIPIs, range of documentation. I have a smoke session. So I go through the whole smoke session.

I go through the rope course. It's more of a junior leadership course, not so much smoke sessions because everybody that's returning to Ranger Patine also goes there. So NCOs and officers that have gone to do their you know, first-scient times, sorry major time, commander time, you know, whatever they had to do as an officer and enlisted guy,

NCOs, and now they're coming back. So they go through the rope course, get back into the Ranger program and mentality and all that stuff. SOPs, policies, the whole thing. So I go through both of those. And probably the happiest I could have ever been. I made it, right?

Star Major Car, that call, that one midnight. That's an, I can't even believe it. I was there, I get, then we're in jungle fatigues at the time, so it starts jungle fatigues, I have my jungle boots on, I got my black berets, I was just, oh, I was happy, I was just like, this is what I wanted this whole time, right?

But I can't go to the tag because I'm a corporal. I'm telling you I go to Ranger School. So they start putting me as a standby into Ranger School. And so they had the Morgan team at the time in Ranger School. So that's like a week or just smoke session. That's like, you're just getting smoked for the whole week. You know, you do the whole Ranger Creed, and anything that you fail at,

and there's a lot of that, you get smoked. There's a lot of running, a lot of push-ups, a lot of pull-ups, the Derby Queen, obstacle course, until you die. If you ever heard the term, koalifying, a little bit of that, this is my favorite hazing story of all time. Rangers are so fucking creative. But do you wanna explain Koalifying?

This is yet hilarious. Grab in the trunk of a tree upside down. So, hold on. The old armies. The old army armies were just like these brown, brown, what do you call them? Warmy pants, in a brown sweatshirt. So you look like a little bear.

And somebody told me this at the agency who was a ranger. I knew the first ranger I've ever had on so But the way it was described to me is when they say Go qualify You got to get down on all fours and run like a bear to the tree in Clio In your in your little warme's and hang upside down on the tree until until they tell you that's enough good stuff Yeah, it's good stuff.

Yes, all that. Yeah, good times. I mean, at the time, it's just whatever it takes, right? You can't smoke me, this is just what you wanna do, right? And they make you grow. You grow, you don't you grow. You grow.

Well, even the dying cockroach, they tell you to say stupid things to you. Like I'm a dying cockroach. You know, like, whatever. Um, yeah, the duck walks. Belly out. Quite quick. I'm here. Yeah. Right.

Quite quick. Um, yeah, total smoke session. But so they do that, I get into range school finally. I mean, this is what I wanted. This is exactly what I wanted. There is nothing they could do to me that would like, dissuade me, I can qualify it, I can just, okay, you can't kill me.

And if I die then, okay. Then I'm dead, I hold none of the difference. Yeah. So it was just what I wanted to do. It was nothing they could do. I did everything they wanted me to do. And then some, you know, never complained about it. And I went through, so from the different phases then, in Ranger School, you got the, you got Fort Benning for a while.

So you did the City Week, well, at the time, you did the Morgan team, the harassment, harassing week. Then you did the City Week. And what's the City Week? It's less harassment, but you're starting to get into the train. So you're learning communications, patrolling, small unit tactics, and those kind of things, a lot more of the obstacle course. And then you go, then at the time there was a desert phase, a Florida phase, and a mountain phase. And each one is, I don't know what the, I don't know about it, but they're they're T.D. wise.

So temporary duties, right? You have to be on T.D.Y. orders and in order to be T.D.Y. you have to have you have to be assigned somewhere. So everybody that goes to Ranger School is assigned to the Ranger Department and then you those are other T.D. wise within a T.D.Y. right? It's not all administrative things. I have no idea about then. But now I can't go TVY because I'm,

they're having a difficulty with getting me TVY orders because I'm still on orders to go to this Ford or California, right? Yeah. And, but I'm assigned to regiment headquarters. I'm only assigned, so that was the issue they were having. I don't know any of this is going on. I'm just waiting for another Ranger class. So I go through Morning Team, City Week, I can't leave Benning. Class takes off and they

go do desert. So I wait for the next class to start. The first time that happened, I'm waiting right there at Ranger School. I don't go back to Regiment Hay Corps and hang out or anything. I just wait for the next class that's coming through and I'll just join them. And then by the time we get to the deployment to the desert, I'll just join them and jump in and drive in whatever,

with that class. Well, I get to that point. Still don't have my orders. So they put me aside and say, we still can't, we can't TDIA to a desert phase onward. Okay, so then they tell me to go wait at Regimen Headquarters. Wait for the next class, we'll give you a call. You don't have to do the PT test again.

We already know you're good. You'll join the next class that comes through and that happened Two or three more times And I finally get to the point where I met a break now I was married two small kids and they're in Columbus, Georgia and an apartment this whole time Just waiting for me to get down with Ranger School, which is getting pro long yeah over time and What ended up happening, well, ultimately, what ends up happening, I get assigned to

Regimen headquarters, which is fine. But my orders that were going to Fort Ord, California, at the time were overriding everything. That was the priority of the army to fill these, some of the Infantry Division with these slots, right? So, I was in no show. Apparently, I was in no show. And what does that mean, right? I'm absent without leave, right? I'm AWOL, according to Ford or personnel, right? Shhh. I never signed in. So from the time I graduated, infantry school, I signed in fine, got to do everything with regiment, got smoked, and everybody's fine with it.

Regiment was fine. All the folks over there, I was the first Sergeant ormed your Guerrero at the time who was there. He was really fighting for me with, because that's Infantry Branch headquarters out for Benning. He was fighting for me. He's like, he wants to be here and we want him. He's passed all the tests to be here and we're trying to get him a sign here permanently and scratch this other assignment.

And they couldn't do it. So ultimately, there's a three or four or five ranger classes that get bumped and keep going through the initial phases through. And ultimately, we get to a point where I am almost, as far as they know, I'm ready to go. I can go through the initial, the first phase again, and then deploy with this class and start going to the desert, go to Florida, go to the mountains, all that stuff, it's been hashed out at infantry headquarters. Well, I get to that point.

Now there's a Christmas break. Now I get to point where there's a Christmas break in Ranger School So I go back I go home for the first time in a while And then my wife at the time as says that they haven't had a paycheck in a while So I put in this thing I put in this thing for a pay inquiry and They're all fine with it. Go to Regimen headquarters personnel Persona Lensio. He sets me up with everything. He a regiment headquarters, personnel, personnel on CO. He sets me up with everything.

He goes, go get your, go here, ask, given this forum, and you'll get your paycheck. So I do that. And, thank you, Mr. Money. And, I go on my way, right? Christmas break. I go back before I go on my way, right? I get Christmas break, I go back before I go on Christmas break and there's not another direct deposit. I was like, well, I'm getting ready to go sign back

in the range school, finish range school, and I go back personnel, they give me the form again, I go to the finance and Fort Benny. And I'm sitting at this pay cage. I'm just like I did before, him in this form, and the specialist sitting behind the counter said, she looks at my stuff and she looked at something

and she said, hold on a minute. And she leaves, goes back. And there's this captain who comes out and looks at me. I'm in starched jungle fatigues. And I got Ranger scroll and my shaved head and you know, spit-shine jungle boots. And captain looks at me and looks at my name tag and looks down at some paperwork.

It says, Corporal Poris says, hey, you say anything? Like Roger that, sir. He's like, hold on a minute, sorry, he goes to get a major. And meanwhile, while they're going to get this major, there's people in the finance building that are behind me

and I recognize a lot of activity. It's just a pay cage, it's a finance section, it's personnel, there's MPs that come in. And I noticed the MPs, I was like, okay, I'm gonna make sense, it's a finance place. And I guess they do finance stuff, you know, whatever. And they're standing behind me, I was doing one of these things like,

what's that all about? Major comes in, comes back to the cage and said, Corporal Poros, you're going to have to go with these gentlemen. And I was like, what just happened? What happened? And he explains to me as the MPs are behind me. And one of the guys, like behind my arm, right? And he's like, and one hand on my shoulder,

and he's getting custody of me. And I was like, I was like, what's going on? And Major explains to me, he's like, well, according to this, you're AWOL. And I looked at him, I looked at the MP, I was like, do I look like an AWOL soldier? Holy shit. Does this look like an AWOL soldier? I was like, he has look like an egg wall soldier? Holy shit. Does this look like an egg wall soldier?

I was like, he has, and he looked at my shoulder and he's like, so, and he sees the regiment scroll and he's like, and he said, sarcastically smart-ass. He's like, is that what you're saying you're a sign? I was like, that's where I am a sign. I don't know what I need to do is get my money, put it in the bank for my wife who can't live on it. I go back to Ranger School and do my thing, right?

And it was not that simple, apparently. Ampies, I go with Ampies to the Ampies station. And Regimen headquarters, sorry, major, two NCOs that were with me and RIP Rope, who know who I am and vouched for me. They said, no, he's got it. No, he's with us. He's assigned to us. He's not able. He's assigned us. We have a bond on roles. And so eventually they get me out, break me out of jail. But it was never resolved. So then I get into the admin nightmare of trying to correct the admin paperwork stuff, and they couldn't.

Regiment at the time didn't have the pull to do that for me, and probably wasn't worth doing it just for corporal porous anyway. So they, you know, corporal porous anyway. So, they, you know, that was, that was, I took that pretty hard because they said, you have to go sign in at Fort Ord, California. Holy shit after all that, they still made you go over there. Yeah, to get this, like to correct this, go sign in. We know your story. Just when you get there and sign in,

we'll take you back. You're going to have to do your time, you know, well, 18 months, whatever it is. But, you know, come back when you want to. I'm just putting the paperwork, but we can't, we can't correct it. Yeah, that was disappointing Thank God for it hard and sign in

It's our game paychecks Damn No shit. Yeah, that that really I mean I was part of the community for for a little bit But I think bad time so I was able for I think over a year because what they had me. So all this whole time I'm doing ranger stuff right I'm just living in the dream. I'm jumping at a plane with everybody I'm going on these exercises that are there I'm bending. Yeah I was just I was I was having a blast. I was like I made it right I got here right and then and then that happened. I was like pretty disappointed made it, right? I got here, right? And then that happened.

I was like, pretty disappointed in like the army and everything at that point. And I was like, well, that was one of the times, like, oh, this is it then, if I can't do that, then this is it. Yeah, I can't even imagine. Yeah, that kind of sucked. But it's my inner set back.

I ended up taking troops. That was my thing. I mean, you know, E5, E6, I made while I was there, I ended up going to Panama with the 7th Infantry Division and just cause. I was, you know. What were you guys doing down there? Well, 7th the infantry we did.

We infilled for operation just cause into downtown Panama city. So we shared the city with 82nd Airborne and normal patrolling direct action stuff, raids and, raids, and cool infantry stuff. There's a lot of... So, as a leader in an infantry squad, as a... Well, as a corporal, then a sergeant, then a staff sergeant, I have a squad. I just love the lifestyle, the infantry grunt stuff,

and being a leader of grunts, right? Just doing grunt stuff. They're, you know, puts my experience in the 82nd at that point, my experience with the Ranger Regiment at the time. So I just did the same thing right there, which is not traditional because it's regular infantry stuff. You don't jump out of planes. You're not sexy. It's just straight leg infantry stuff. But I was always grabbing my guys, you know, hitting the woods, get your ruck's shackles, go individual movement technique training, you know, smoke sessions with sandbags.

You should get Sam a learn that and rip. Do I and T's with sandbags. You know, smoke sessions with sandbags. You should get Sam a learn that in rip. Do I am T's with sandbags. Pick up your sandbags, run one, two, three, I'm down. You know, I'm up, they see me I'm down. You know, so, everybody thought I was crazy for doing that, but eventually, you know, of course they widened and complained.

We're going on a, why isn't anybody outside on a road march today? And I was like, well, because they're not with me, right? They're out. I'm not in charge of them. I'm in charge of you guys. We're going marching. Or we're doing IMTs.

Or we're doing buddy carries, you know, down in the woods, you know, up and down hills. This four-door has rolling hills. So there's some pretty decent terrain to do all this kind of good stuff. Yeah. And, you know, I was just, you know, as a junior leader, I loved that aspect of it. Having a team and then having a squad, then two guns, gun teams attached to me for, sorry, at the time we had M60 machine guns and the infantry rifle squads and platoons.

I just loved every minute of that. No one had a maneuver, you know, my little element, my little kingdom right, in the infantry world, had a it. And we got an opportunity to do that in just cause. I just, that was like, culmination exercise I couldn't ask for at a better time. And then all after that, even in my contracting days later on, I kind of, kind of resort to that on some of the things that,

that's a lot to get, you know, if you're a leader to get troops, you're your troops to do things that they wouldn't naturally do on their own, you know, under stress, under fire, and then they do it without question when you ask them to finally, right? And then so for me, that was my my my just cause experience, right? I didn't have the coach room anymore. I didn't have to say things twice. I just barked out of command and they were moving. And even in some cases, they were doing it before I said anything, because I knew that was coming. So for me, that was the best experience I could have had to validate a lot of things that

you don't ever know when you're training to go to war or battle how you're really going to act and how your trips are really going to act. How many guys were you with? Or how many guys were you in charge of? Well, typical infantry, rifle, baton, companies, and stuff like that. I had a plus dot squad. And now it's because, well, one reason for that when I went to Jessica is because they trusted me with a maximum amount of troops. So two fire teams of four guys, plus two machine gun teams,

which is three guys per machine gun team. Plus to set with any number of other folks just on any particular rate to support that kind of stuff. So the battalion commander at the time, great guy, former SF guy, he was doing his time in the infantry ranks to do his Sergeant Major time, allowed me, asked for me specifically

on a couple of things, hey, let's Sergeant Poros do this because he's got his guys ready to go and all this guy. So for me, that was like, it was huge. I was like, oh cool. He's asked specifically that I do these things and not anybody else. And I was like, I don't know why, but, oh yeah, let's do this thing. In a neighbor of mine who is on a tow platoon, they used to court on the areas that we'd go into

for the raids and he was saying as I'm marching, you know, they had vehicles, they had tow vehicles and they'd go court on off this area. And here comes me and my guys marching into this area. And I'd always say hi. So, hey man, I wanna say Jim, was his name. It's like, hey Jim, and he's a smoker, and he's got his toe guys, corner on.

He's like, I think my call sign was black sheep at the time. He's like, black sheep, why are you always the one, he's out here again? It's like, oh yeah man. Here we go again, right? Just like the infantry running, you know, song. It's like, here we go again. Hey, we're here.

Might as well do this, right? Yeah. And then often the jungles we go into these little shanny towns and disappear from his site. But he's like, man, you are glutton for punishment. I was like, you know, as I'm walking past them, I was like, well, it's what it's all about, man. Oh, yeah, dude.

Well, hey, let's take a little break, and then when we come back, let's get into a little more specifics on what you were doing down in Panama. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah. I want to take a minute to tell you about vigilance Elite Patreon.

Patron support is what makes this show possible and gives me the ability to bring these one-of-a-kind stories to the public. Go to patreon.com, slash Vigilance Elite, and support're back from the break. You're down in Panama. Operation just cause. This is when we pulled Noriega out, correct? Yep. So let's talk about some of the day-to-day operations you're doing down there running grunts. Oh man, that's awesome. It's like the culmination exercise, life-fire exercise you never asked for, right? With life-fire coming back. And my first experience with that,

and as well, my guys, a lot of good stuff, a lot of good lessons learned for me personally. And now there's this, it was an incredible experience, I thought. Did you understand the mission that was going on down there before you went? I did. Yeah, so we were down there as an organization that summer, prior to that. Okay.

So we were escorting the convoys up and down the canal, doing a lot of stuff. And this is, as things are deteriorating down there, we're down there to when that's happening, doing all the convoys escorts, up and down the Panama canal. Training with the seventh SF group that was down there, we're doing a lot of that stuff.

And I actually left that summer in May and June to go to SFAS to the SF selection course. I left, went to brag, went to SF selection course, loved every minute because then I had another, it was one of my other wild hair moments. Hold on, hold on. So did you ever become a ranger? No, you never became a ranger. No, I got the regiment But never went to ranger school. I never was permanently assigned there. No shit. Yep. All right Well, fuck I thought we had a ranger on here

Yeah, they So I left, when the SFS went to that, I was supposed to go to QCourse after that. And that's when we actually, we spend the summer there doing all the S-Cort stuff. We come home actually about Thanksgiving time in 89, right? I'm getting those dates, right? And we're off rotation. So our sister elements and brigades are going down there to assume the escorts and all that other stuff, the patrol missions and the training with seventh group and all that stuff. And then December 20th, a month later, just cause goes down and we get alerted, fly out, go back to Panama. Can you explain what that was all about for the listeners? Well, so I guess it was time to let Manuel Noriega,

who, so who we empowered to do what he was doing down there, to take back the power from him, because he got a little overzealous with it. So somebody we put in power, what, out of control, powers it be here in the the States out of the White House at the time decide to I guess In-diet him for the his criminal acts One of which eventually

Unit has one of the rescues out there Curt me used they do that when they're down there Funny experience with the unit. I'm not at the unit at the time. I'm with the ninth, ninth temperature regiment out of the seventh temperature division at the time, but doing great things on as a grunt junior leader. So one of those things, I got this deaf blossom story. So talk about communications and getting grants to do.

I don't win. You don't have to talk, or as soon as you say something, they're on it, right? One of the things I used to say, before we went on a hit down there, was, cause it's good, you know, despite all the confusion. And they were scared and it's like,

well, what does this have? What does this have? Okay, hey, cool your jets, man. If you see me shooting at something, find something to shoot at. Bottom line, just do that. You all right? So, I didn't think about that at the time when I said it,

but we go on this raid and we're going to get this one, dude, who's apparently one of the battalion 2000 was the Noriega's army at the time, the army down there that went rogue. And now we were training them. There are friends. Now there are enemies just like Noriega was. We were training them there friends and other enemies just like Norega was

Well first of all it's down as narrow like it used to be storage units just one row an alley way Let's just call it an alleyway. It's Panama City, so it's just It's just a narrow street. And with these little storage units, which they turned into homes. So now they're occupied by people. And one of these units was the guy we were after. And I have the traditional infantry guys with me, the infantry tables of organization and equipment, right? My two or three gunner. So we're going down this narrow passageway. I'm leading on the left. I have a two or three gunner

on my right side across the street and we're leading both down both ends of the street. And I told Smitty, my two or three gunner, I said, hey, when I stop, you stop, right? So if we don't hear each other or you don't hear me, when I stop, you stop, right? So if we don't hear each other or you don't hear me, when I stop, you stop. If I'm shooting something, find something to shoot. And he's got the old school Grenadier Veston in there, stack all these HE, 40 mic mic rounds, and a couple of smokes, and it was a daytime raid.

And we offloaded vehicles, and we get to this less covering concealed position, and it's a sprint to the door from there. It was a daytime raid and we offloaded vehicles and we get to this last covering concealed position and it's a sprint to the door from there. So down this, that wasn't a long sprint. And as we're going, I'm crouched down and you know, face to the front and I look to my right, I see Smitty across the way and literally from here to that wall is the width of the street we're on. And I see him crouch down. And but his legs when they come up,

they're kicking out from his vest, the 40 mic mic on the bottom row of his vest. And I was like, well, he's got plenty left on his vest when we get there. And it's such a small place we're probably not gonna use it. I'm probably not gonna ask him to use that anyway. So I was okay with that. It's just these droplets from rounds will pick those up afterwards after the assault, right? The assault goes down. Oh well let's get

this assault. So there's a little break in the on my side there's a little break on my side. There's a break which we're gonna go set up on this door. There's a break in the row of storage in its homes and it goes out to the jungle, right? And that was just where the kids play it and everything. It was just the break in the facility, the structure. And that's where I was gonna go, set up right around the door. Sorry, you're on the corner and there's the door.

So I set up and we were gonna tell him, in Spanish, I had one of my guys, spoke fluent in Spanish. We're gonna tell him to come out, you know, kind of thing, something that effect, or we're coming in after you, right? You're wanted by this, that, and the other thing, and we're coming in after you if you don't come out. So he said, he has his wife and kid in there, and we said, okay, we'll send them out, so they don't get hurt, and send them out.

We'll grab them up, scoop them up, took them off. And as soon as they went, a couple of our supporting elements they came to pick up the wife and kid, they take them out of the way. As soon as they came, as soon as they disappeared and they were safe, I rounded the corner right, doors. I'm looking through the window in the door and I'm waiting for this guy to come out or do something and my guy's talking to him and say,

come out now or we're coming in. And he wanted to put up a fight. Oh no, shit. Yeah. So I backed up a little bit. So I'm on a knee. I'm looking inside the door and looking at this window. And I have this support by fire position.

Now I'm talking the width of this room is the width of this lane. Support by fire position had two machine guns, or M60 machine guns back at all school days. They're that close to this building. Holy shit. And I said, come out or we're coming in. all school days. They're that close to this building. Hold on. And I said, come out or we're coming in. And I was in planning on doing that just that, I don't know, it's like the guns are going to open up first.

And then we're going in affords, typical infantry raid, right? Mm-hmm. It's where a fire opens up. They do their job. Okay, so he's fire on the guns and then we'll go in. Clean up the mess. Well, he says he's not coming out so You know decision time for me. I say I didn't expect him to say that right

But he sent his family out family safe now. He's gonna fight so I Backed up a little bit, just on my knees, I just sit on my foot, and I looked back behind me to my rifleman, but he's my speaker, my linguist. I said, tell him we're coming in. I took a frag out of my kit, and I said, tell him we're leading with this and coming in afterwards. And so he told him, you know, come out, or, you know, yada, yada, yada, and we're coming in.

And he said something about fragmentation. So my Spanish wasn't so good at the time. And he said, he's not coming out. Remarice, my guy, he's like, he's a SRMP, he's not coming out. Remarice, my guy, he's like, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's not coming out. So they're like, why did that? Did the whole little, hey, pulling my pants, showed everybody that was behind me. And I threw in the door, they gave, right?

So as soon as I threw the grenade, I backed up against the wall. So I'm crouched down, I'm backed up against the wall, and waiting for the explosion, right? And so they're all thatched roofs. And there's a center block that are making these storage units, and now they're homes. And thatched stuff just starts flying and debris everywhere. And right above us, fragmentation is coming through the center block, right? And I was sitting there thinking,

just loud as hell, man, just do, everything explodes. And I see everything flying and I look back at the wall at the brag holes. I was like, all right, that wasn't such a good idea, right? And I'm looking down the line like, okay, everybody's still good. We're still good. So, off we go. I said, you know, let's go follow me or something to that. In fact, around the corner and guns in. And they have this little partition. It's a small room. This little partition were separated that room. I yelled gun on the coffee table and it had to be a toy gun.

I yelled gun as I'm going through the door and I see this partition and if somebody's hiding in there, that's a good place to hide. So I just stitched the wall, right? So total grant rate stuff, right? It's not like surgical fires and, you know, target ideal of the shit. I just fragged this place, so we're going in blazing, right?

I'd go in a yellow gun on the table and start stitching this wall. And what did I tell my guys? If you see me shooting, find something to shoot. Oh, shit. It's so, the two guys that were coming in with me, there was four guys that were on the entry team, one state at the door and, you know,

took outside security and the other two guys joined me as they're right behind me and I'm just stitching this wall. What does Rp do? What did he say last? Find something to shoot and they're just stitching walls. I was like, and I hear them shooting and it's loud as fuck. And it's like, okay, okay, my side's clear. And they're like, wait for the lowland fire.

And they're like, clear. They're yelling clear, clear, and all of the shit. And I look back behind the kitchen little thing that I shot at at and there's nothing there and there's a little bedroom or a little room which is their bedroom and I'm somewhat of a bathroom and that's where he was hiding underneath a bunch of furniture. We go in there and look around this place has just been fragged. There's still that factory stuff dust in the air on the frag and cement,

cinder block debris everywhere. We can't hear anything, because we just fired three guns at, like, in our ears. And, uh, Ramirez is yelling at this dude, like, like, uh, come out, you know, or you heard or all the other things. And by then, I'm thinking, surely this dude's like near death. Yeah.

That's why I write. And he's underneath this two mattresses and he pulled something and it was like a, some sort of a bookshelf or a shelf, but over him and we took all that stuff off and got him at gunpoint and he had his hands already. He's on his back and he's hands up. And I look at him and he's clean as day, right?

He only has on shorts. So he doesn't have any other clothing on or anything. He has on shorts and thongs or whatever, slippers or whatever, the hallyon and his feet. And it's like, how does this guy know how many holes in them? And I had the Ramirez talk to him. He's like, you okay, you have anything hurt. And I'm doing like an initial assessment on the guy at the same time. Not a scratch, scratch all these shit. The only thing he couldn't do, or had a complaints about was his hearing. He couldn't hear anything.

So I flexed tie him, got him up, headed him, took him outside, took him out, got him out of the way, and I was thinking the whole time that post-as-salt procedure kind of stuff. So we go in there and look around and do the SSC thing and his little cabin, whatever that is. And then the people started coming out

from their homes in their doorways and asking, you know, they thought the two or three gunners, many going in as dropping the two or threes, was mining the roadway going in. So they thought there were landmines. Yeah, they thought there were landmines. How many of those things that he dropped? It's like half a dozen of them. Ha ha ha. And I looked around and I was like, no, no. There's no landmines. Are they saying landmines? Like, asking them specifically, like landmine, landmines.

And Ramirez was like, yep, no, they're landmines. And I looked down the street and I can see the golden egg trail, right? I was like, oh, is that what they're talking about? And this said yes. And I was like, oh, oh, hey, tell them we'll take them. We're gonna pick them up on the way out, get some media and radio.

Hey, come pick up your grenades. Yeah, and that was it. That was the death, loss them stories. We're back to back just shooting up this little room. But it was like, then I was thinking, well, okay, maybe I need to work on my communications a little bit with these guys, you know, not quite go. Just find something to shoot. Yeah, exactly what I told them to do.

Yeah. But a lot of things like that, down to raids, you know, raid after raid after raid. We're going after, you know, it turned into a lot of, like territories, like us, one territory or one group is wanting us to go after their competition. It sounds like Afghanistan. Yeah, and so we're just grancing, we don't know any better. We're just passing the information on from the street, the intel, let them do whatever this, they need to do. It goes through the system, comes down from, you know,

batoning headquarters, these other missions, and then we go on a raid. But it did, it was, that's all it was. Everybody wanted us to go after their competitions and pass around the drugs and all that other stuff that was going on. But God, I got a lot of experience raiding. Yeah, how long were you down there? Through the holidays, we ended up redeploying.

So probably two to three weeks on a street doing patrols and railing, stuff like that. And then, because we redeployed probably, I wanna say by the end of January of 90, had to been at least by then. Yeah, Christmas raid. So another thing I learned too. So this raid I called Christmas raid in the up order, because on Christmas day, we were patrolling through,

we had to patrol through the shanny town to get there and the guys that I had leading. So there's this little kid that we got. He's going to lead us to the house in the shanny town. Because there's a shanny town. You can't make heads or tails of it. Nobody can tell, you know, go down this street because they're no street names. So we had this little kid that came out or one of the people that was in the village said, we'll lead you to it. Well, I'll send you somebody to lead you to the house. So this little kid shows up, it's

like 10 or 11 years old. And that's who we had to lead us into this, this, this raid. And That's who we had to lead us into this this this raid and That even got me a little nervous. Yeah Because some of the places he was Walking through I mean I was like well, this is where we're gonna get hit He's setting somebody setting us up for an ambush, right? And that that kind of was prevalent in the guys and I didn't say that to anybody But the guys the guy had leading, he was he had stopped. He held the patrol. I came up to see what's happening and the kid kept walking and disappeared into the channy house. And where we stopped wasn't a

good place to stop because it was like everybody, including myself, was thinking, like, would line jungle, can't see anything. It's that night, and then, Shanne House, Shanne Town. This is where we're going to get hit. So I was just like, I keep moving, keep going, keep going, and he was literally frozen. He said, I can't go any further.

He's like, hey, sorry, I'm here, I can't do it. And I said, can't do what? He goes, he goes, I can't go forward. I can't, I think I'm going to lead everybody into that ambush. I can't do this. And I was like, all right, leadership decision going on right here in my head, going, what do I do now? We're already going to this target. Support elements are in position. So I said, all right, follow me. Let's go. And then found this kid. The kid, you know, it's doing this whole thing. I was like, I just little kid, if he stirs in the wrong direction, that's another thing. I got going on my head. Like, when am I going to do with that kid, right? direction. That's another thing I got going on my head like when am I going to do with that kid right? But he let us into this house, pass the support positions and finally American faces in the shanny village. He's like whoa who's that? It's like a superb position. Finally get to this place,

raid the place. All the things you ever talk about in a breaching, like bad happen right? Sledge through the door that goes through the door and gets stuck, you know, all these things and it's on a, it's a shanny village and it's in a bad part of It's Panama, so it's wet ground and so that's on the houses on stills. So it says this is raised I feel like I'm the fucking jungle. Yeah, it's raised about waste level. So there's Brickety steps that go in through the front door and it just steps. It's not like something you can stack on and all these other things, right? And then it's just

a plywood check and the plywood with a plywood door. And the doors locked have a padlock on it. So the guy had up their first with the boat cutters. a padlock on it. So the guy had up their first with the boat cutters. He was going to cut the lock and then open the door. I said, just hit it with the sledgehammer. That whole door and the wall is going to go down when you hit it's elevated about race level. And so he has to swing this sledge at this knob or the touching point, it wasn't really a door knob, but he has to sledge the hammer over, swinging the hammer over his head.

So as he's swinging it over his head, sticks in the door and gets stuck. And then it's like, oh God, you know, worst nightmare, it's like, oh God, you know, we're nightmare. It's like, and go, right? Stuck. Oh my God. Everybody's bumping into each other because we're getting ready. We're getting ready to run into this place and salt this building was room.

And then it was just like, you know, stepping over our guys to get in because the steps gave away. They are under the weight of the first two guys that get in because the steps gave away. They are under the weight. The first two guys that got on these wood steps, they're wet, they're dilapidated, they're rickety, and to get into the front door, stepping over our guys, just to crawl into the threshold of this door, and then from a kneeling land position,

starting to clear this room, it was just the worst thing imaginable. But it's like, yeah, everything doesn't always work out perfectly. You get to go in, you know, all cool and sexy and shit. Did you get them? Yeah, yeah, rolled up the guy. He was actually, he was rolled up he scored scored it out the back Which we had guys back there and a support team that was watching the back. They they wrapped them up out back when he came out Craft him hundred and took them back You know detain him and all that good stuff and He did have a bunch of stuff in there that

I Guess was used against him in his the drug war down there. OK. Yeah. So that had to be a pretty good despite the clock. Jack Astoray going on to get in. That's nice.

But it's like, I was like always ingrained in my head. OK, well, it isn't always cool. It doesn't always look sexy. Yeah. But as long as you get the job done, mission success. And nobody got hurt either. Well, nine times out of 10,

you don't look as stupid as you think you do. You're right. That's it. But so you guys were doing stuff like that just about every day down there. Yeah, it was pretty busy there for a while. One of the first nights there, my potential, well, so,

unit guys are down there, right? And my task is a grant on the ground, first night, we get to this one position and it's a blocking position. And apparently the battalion 2000, the group, out of the city into the jungle and they're coming back on a counter assault. The night that we get there, and so that's what they tell me. We're going to plush you up with extra guns and all this other stuff and you like, I'm gonna be the first one they hit, run into you. I was like, oh, hello. All right. All right, good on me, man. You know, be careful what you ask for, kind of stuff, right? A lot of funny things happen that night. Spanish, that's my strong point. As we're waiting for this new counteroffensive,

there's somebody, one of my guys on the perimeter, it's a neighborhood, but it's thick, jungle still. Here's a guy walking down the street, he has a guy and he's making his way down the street and I hear these whispering's going on and they're calling for me and starting P, calling me starting P the whole time. Sorry P sorry P It's like I finally get there. I'm fucking low crawling into this position. It's like

He does the enemy that way. He's like How do you say get down in English? I was like already in Spanish. I was like and my We had all done we've been there down all the whole summer. We'd worked on our Spanish on all those terms and, um, total brain fart, right? It's like, oh my God, here's our time to shine, right? And I couldn't think of it. I was like, uh, and I'd jump out of the bush out of the jungle, put my gun at him, and I was like,

get on the ground with a puck. And he stops, he drops his gun and gets on the ground. And I was like, that's how you say, get on the ground and spare-ish. And then get him wrapped up and sent him back and all this other stuff. But then next morning, we have this corner, my corner, I'm tasked to click.

So, oh well, before I get to the daylight, that night we're putting up stuff, blocking stuff, anything we can find. So we're taking apart walls, they have these little center blocks, get them to make their decorative walls out of, right? So we're relocating all this stuff to make, you know, speed bumps, hurdle, something

for cars that you can't get through behind us on a residential street. Think we're carrying things from homes, you know, whatever we can put on the street to make some sort of obstacle. And normal traditional like danger area crossing, right? We're going, I'm going across, set up a support position. I'm gonna go across, set up support, and they follow me over. As I'm running across, I hear this little, you know, noticeable noise over headfire.

So the snapping. I was like, oh shit, I run back. I was like, motherfucker. I was like, did anybody see that? And they're like, no, we're looking, we're looking. I was like, oh man, now we don't know exactly where it came from. Pitch black outside.

And there's a street light at this intersection that we're trying to put this, some sort of obstacle in. And we're just totally fabricating this whole thing. Whatever we can get, trash cans, anything to put in the street and anchor them down so nobody would get on that street behind us. Because our position was facing the other direction. And I was like, all right, we've got to get this done.

All right, get in position, look, if you hear anything, lie to me. So I grab my stuff, put it on my shoulder, start running across street, I get snaps, snaps, snaps. I'm running, and it's like, and I don't hear any gunshots from my guys. And I get to the far side, and I get,

I was like, what the fuck, you guys see anything? I was like, we didn't see anything. I was like, oh the fuck, you guys see anything? I was like, we didn't see anything. I was like, son of a bitch, cause now I have to go back across, right? So I throw things on the street really quick, just to throw it out there. And I was like, all right, you guys ready? Say, eyes up, man, guns up.

And on three, I'm running back across. And one to three, I start running back across and snap, snap, snap. I was like, that's sort of a bitch. I was like, why aren't you guys shooting? What's going on? We can't see, we can't see what it is. I was like, what now, right?

So I, but two guys, I was like, hey, why do you want to meet guys coming across with me? Maybe you can see them from the other side. Then there was a small hesitation there. I was like, I knew when you guys come across with me. Maybe you can see them from the other side. And then there was a small hesitation there. I was like, come on, you're going across with me. And smitting my favorite guy with the 203 guy. He's like, oh, it's under 203, right? On his M16.

Yeah. And I say, hey, smitting, stay here. Keep your eyes open. We're going back across. So we grab some more stuff to drag cross road. I say, hey, Smitty, stay here, keep your eyes open. We're going back across. So we grab some more stuff to drag across the road. And snap, snap, snap. And put nothing from Smitty.

And I can't remember who it was. It was with me. He's actually the one of the guys that froze later on the Christmas raid. But he's running across. He's like, son of of a bitch shoot that motherfucker. He's like I can't see him I can't see him. We dropped some more stuff on the red and we're going back like this five or six times to build this bearcade and

at one point the last time I go across I was like okay one one more thing. I'm gonna put out there we're gonna call it quits. Bear kids, we're done. And screw this guy, we'll find him later. I was gonna, I'm thinking, I gotta go to the middle of the street, make this final blockage in the road and expose myself and everything, right? Yeah. So you know, I'm gonna give this guy a momentary, I'm gonna have to stop at one everything, right? Jesus, dude.

Now I'm gonna give this guy a moment, I'm gonna have to stop at one point, right? I was like, well, you guys, if I can guns up, get this dude, and I'm not gonna stay out there for long. So if you see this dude, take care of this guy. So I run out there, another run it out there, and I put the things down.

I stop like a hear of a couple of snaps, and I stop. I'm a look in the direction that I heard it coming from, like, I'm like, all right, what the fuck? Give my guy something to shoot at, please. And nothing, nothing that I not hear any fire at all. And then, ram back off the road.

So, momentary pause, like, and then, ram back into the woods to my guys, and they plop down in the middle of them. I'll say, nothing. No, negative sharp. Negative sharp, we couldn't see anything. And mostly because one of the guys was really scared, I think.

But, and we're like, all right, well, barricades out, we're good. Let's go back, get back in the fight. That morning, eventually where I end up going, unit guys are coming in this ban, and they need to get to the church. What did they call the truck? I came up with they called the church. What did they call the trach? I can't remember what they called the church. Noriega went from to this the church. The people know it's yeah. Okay. I think that's what they called it. So he goes there for

sanctuary and these unique guys are coming down this road where the counter assaults was happening. That night I hear specter gunship just tearing somebody up down the road, right? They're just, I mean, they're so close, we can hear the howitzers, the 40 mic mics, all the machine guns that sounded cool, oh shit.

And they're tearing somebody up. And it's jungle, so you can't see exactly what's down there, they're shooting at it. I can see the plane, and they're just firing up somebody I'm thinking okay they're taking care of business they didn't care that a counter assault group well from that direction comes a unit guys in a white panel van and I got this street locked out with my guys right and there's cars now starting to try to get out of that part of the city they're backed up

they're stopped they're not going anywhere. Which is good for me because it's bucking the whole road. And that's Smitty, my gosh, Smitty. He's down at the far end of this thing, and he calls on a radio and say, hey, he's hard-pours. He's got to come down here. There's some guys in a white panel van, I think they're an army, and they want to get through. Now this road is jumped up with cars that are wanting to leave right and plus r-shit that we have in the road and I was like all right hey I'll be there in a minute I go make of my way down through this traffic or cars and get to this panel van. Spanic mail is in the passenger seat up front. It's a panel van, you can't see in the back.

Driver looks like, may I could be a Panamanian, a Hispanic of some sort. And I said, who are you guys? And he said, Army, had an ID card, and they're in regular clothes. Had an ID card and I looked at it and I was like, looks legit, but I'm not used to army guys dressed like this. I was like, he would have he got in the back. He got anything in the back and he said, yes, he's like, or something

that effect like Roddashar and we have, I have guys in the back and they have guns and we're trying to get to the people non-seat to where Noyga is being held. Or he's, he went for a sanctuary. And I was like, well, I'm gonna have to look in the back. And just to be safe. And he's like, all right, well, give me a minute. And he says something over shoulder. And so I was told, smitty, all right, typical clearing thing. You get the handle, I'll go guns up,

looking to bat, clear it, right? Smitty grabs the handle, he's got his gun up, he grabs the handle, it's like on three. I want to slide it, it's a slider panel van. And there's these dudes in woodland camouflage, BDUs, ProTex, and Car 15s and all the shit. One guy sitting in the doorway like this, facing right at me.

And he's got his US flag, red, white, blue, it's not subdued. And I can see that. Another guy can see Hezzon on his chest. And he's over his shoulder like this point that me and there's several I can remember this like this this wall of guns looking at me yeah and I recognize the red, white, and blue in this camouflage like you know black protects the darkness of all the other colors the

white background of the panel bank is it was the white panel van. Red light and blue flags definitely stood out for me and these dudes sitting there like this and I was looking at this like oh Lord my gun. It's like Smitty Closet door. It's like sir you're good to go and I and he's like we need to get through here. I was like, no worries. And I said, part, part the water. I said, make room for this fan. It's coming through. And my guys just started telling everybody, get away. They went through, come and find out later on when I go to selection. Just the next year, it's, it's the unit guys. And it's,

it's the squadron that I'm actually going to eventually to. No shit. Yeah. Real quick for the viewers. So unit guys are special forces, operation group, detachment, delta. Yeah. That's that's what you're talking about. Yeah. And I heard about that when I went to selection.

So I got through twice. And they were like, hey, were you in Panama? Don't just pass, are you shitting? I was like, yeah, they don't talk to you until it's at the end. So this happens at the end and I was like, I was like, Roger Sharp and I'm like, huh, and then they take off. Because actually, so I got this section,

didn't make it the first time, but I made it through enough to where I got some sort of, I don't selection, didn't make it the first time, but I made it through enough to where I got some sort of, I don't know, respect. Is this selection for the unit? This is selection for Delta. Yeah, so you didn't... This is the year after, apparently. Shit, so you didn't become a green beret either.

Yes, eventually I went to the Q-Horse, yeah. Okay, we'll get to that. Yep. So that was kinda, I didn't know what was happening because I didn't make it, but I went to, they're not make it, Shaq. So I go through this whole thing, as there's a comical things,

a thing that I did that time that I knew, I was like, there's no way I'm gonna make this, there's no way. Because it was just one mistake after another and you can't make mistakes, because you're so pressed for time and you don't know the time You're just running around and you know West Virginia mountains, you know trying to get somewhere fast the rucksack underback. This is a happen fast

But you do the best you can right and I was just one wrong move one wrong, you know, Valley. I'm right. Oh, it's just a mess A lot of good stories out of that one too, but funny stories. I crack my head on this rock. I'm making my way up this power line that's got all these rocks, boulders, and they're moss covered. And on a map, it looks like that's a clear spot. I don't have to walk through the woods and over all these dead fall on everything else, right?

It looks like a clear path up this mountain. And it's not, because it's boulders. It's huge boulders, they're moss covered. Now I'm hopping for boulder to boulder. I slip on a boulder, because it's moss covered. Rocksack drives my head into a boulder. I get this big, oh gosh, it's my forehead. And I was like, okay, that hurt.

But I'm still going, I get in the woods, and I'm continuing up, I get to this one, rendezvous point. And they don't talk to you there. They're very, still very in lines that they have to say, and that's it. One of them is, do you wish to seek medical attention?

And it's yes or no. And I got to this point, and I see this category member, and he's just at a checkpoint making sure that I'm not violating any roads and trails and doing what I'm not supposed to be doing, right? And he notices the blood dripping down my face. And he looks at me and he, I see him looking here. I was like, oh, yeah, I probably got a goose egg there,

but I'm still good, I was like, oh yeah, I probably got a goose egg there, but I'm still good, I'm not quitting. And he said, do you, uh, color number, because you're a color number, only you're not a person yet. And he said that, uh, color number, he said, he looked at me, looked at my forehead, I noticed him look at my forehead, is he, do you wish to seek medical attention? That's a negative. So, I was like, do you wish to seek my look at the tension? I was like, negative shard. And I was like, why did he ask me twice? And I said, how bad does that look, right?

And he asked me one more time. I said, negative shard. He's like, all right, have a good one. And if I went, I was just stuck in my head the whole time. I'm like, why did he ask me? I was like, how bad this is really? How fucked up am I? And I got to the end.

They do an inventory of what I have and weigh my rucksack and all those other things. And while they're doing that, look at my forehead and like, do you wish to seek medical attention? I was like, why does everybody keep asking me that? And I was like, no, don't pull me. If I see the doc, I'm getting pulled. I was like, no does everybody keep asking me that? And I was like, no, don't pull me. If I see the dock, I'm getting pulled. I was like, no, I don't want to see. I grabbed some stuff, handy wipes, stuff that had in my back, my Rucksack, and then wiping

my forehead, and I can feel, you know, a little knot in my forehead. I mean, things like that were happening this whole time. And I made it to the point where, I guess it was decently enough to where they actually came up to me later in the Go-in-Home shack because there's a barracks for training and then there's a Go-Home barracks that you go to, it's like, I don't want to end up in those barracks. Ended up in those barracks. And the category members is they're coming back through the camp. They made it to point to stop.

Hey, so I'm forced, and the first time they call me that, hey, good job. Unfortunately, didn't make it. Hope you come back and re-in pantomall, last year. You gotta be shitting me. Yeah, I was like, Roger, sorry. I was like, hmm, and then took off. And then I had three category members come up to do that.

And I remember them to this day, and eventually I see them when I pass the second time and get to operator trading course and the unit and all that stuff, and see them in the hallways. And the same guys as we're passing hallways, you know, it's one of those things. They're already there, right? They're already made it into the squadron.

So when you pass them in the hallways, you know, it's like, you know, don't talk to those guys, consider They're already there, right? They're already made it into the squadron. So when you pass them in the hall, it's like, you know, don't talk to those guys because they're like the good old guys, right? And I'm just the wannabe still. And so you don't talk to them yet, but every time they pass me in the hall, they're like, you're the Panama guy. And I was like, oh, yeah.

What? We're all three of them in the back of the van. Two of them that I know were in the back of the van? Two of them that I know were in the back of the van, one of the guys was up front. He's the guy with the ID. Okay. Yeah. They were asking me the whole time. And then they were also saying, because the Kurt Mews rescue, they got shot down from 9th, was it, whoever the impetry unit was down there.

They're the ones who shot the helicopter down. So it was friendly fire that shot the helicopter down for them use rescue. So they were saying that. They're just harassing me, right? You know. Because our castigabats was like, you're the ones who shot us down.

I was like, no, no, no, it wasn't me. All the more on the blocky position that let you guys go, right? I'm the good guy. But yeah, that was. It was funny, you know, in a whole war, there's always something that happens weird and, you know, memorable

that it's not horrible, you know. So, how did you find out about that selection? I thought you were talking about selection to become a Green Beret. No, I went to, so in 89, I went to SFS for Green Beret stuff. And then in the interim, I'm at Ford ord, California, and then get orders to go to Korea. So I actually go to Korea.

But before I leave, there's a, on the Armed Forces Network, on the military installation network. They'll actually post the recruiting, like, the recruiters are going to be here for this unit at this time, this day, you know, see your first-art and personal NCOs do this, and some people get cards. They get cards in the middle that have already been administratively checked, and they get

cards through the mail system to go to these meetings. But it's also on the installation network channel. And a couple of the guys that I knew were had the cards, they got the cards mailed. I saw it on the channel. I was like, well, I'll go with you guys, see what this all about.

They had no intention to go. They just wanted to go see what the briefing was all about. And I had no idea. So, so that's never everything. So you had no idea what you were walking into. And you were like, I never said,

I didn't get a card, but I want to know what this shit's about. Yes. It's like, just like joining an army, I had no idea. Nobody fucking invited me to this party. I'm going. I'm going I'm going anywhere This is see what they're selling

And I already got an SFA S now I didn't get my QCore state for Green Brake stuff because I went to Panama so that This is another similar situation that I have a regiment right when it's a range of time So I go to SFA S. I'm got a QCore state the QCore state gets pushed back because? I'm going to go to the range of the time. So I go to SFAS, I've got a cuter state. The cuter state gets pushed back because now I'm in Panama just cost. So I get back, find out that my cuter state is over the six-month window. I got to go back to selection before I get another cuter state. I was like, okay, whatever. I kicked it in the ass once or kicked me in the ass once I could do it again right I survived it once I could do it again I said yep I'll do that again

sign it for another cast but in the interim I'm moving from Florida California to Korea on those orders and I see it at Fort Ord and the guys that I know had cards they're going to this briefing I was like hey man I'll come with you guys see what this is all about and it was a cool ass video, right? It was like, and so any moment before that, any moment before that, you read it, and you only read about it in Gangham magazine, and at the Old Stockade, they have those stories,

right, on Fort Bragg. They're in their original location on Fort Bragg. So Jeff Fortune, you know, just stories that they're writing about the range of Italians and the unit and all this other stuff, all this super secret shit they do. Never, there's always good read, always motivational, but never a thought in my mind. It's like, well, that's cool.

Never thought that this is what I wanna do. I was always thinking, that's pretty cool. For those guys to do that shit, that's badass, right? Never ever, like, this is what I wanna do, right? Super motivating to read about. I always thought, put them on this pedestal though. Those are those dudes, man. That's awesome, right?

Yeah. Never a clue that when I finally go to this briefing, I go to this briefing and I'm still thinking. And so one of the things that you say at this briefing is, you only feel yours, you feel your try. I was like, that's what got me. I was like, you know, cool videos, I mean, it's all the cool stuff. It's all the direct action stuff and helicopters, little birds flying everywhere and fast-rope and it's all neat stuff.

Guys, black stuff running through, you know, didn't see QB shells. I was like, that's badass, right? Yeah. Like, that'd be cool. If that was something, if I knew somebody, that's fucking badass. And then that's the thing they said.

A bunch of people ask questions, how long do you deploy and all the stuff? And they say, well, we can't, you know, disclose all the stuff, but you'll be gone. So your primary mission in life and all the stuff, and there's no whole, they don't hold anything back. It's like, you're going to be deployed. You have to, if you're married, yes, your spouse has to buy into this whole thing too. So you're not going to make it past all the selection stuff. I mean, it's a whole, it's a whole family thing

or not at all. If it's not right, it's not right. And they tell you up front. It's good for some people. It's not for others. It's not for everybody. If this is what you want to do and you're married, have kids and all that stuff, that's a discussion between you guys and you need to be 100% in, you know, so they let everybody know that. So those are the some things I was listening to you. I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. And then the last thing, it says, you know, what's a harm in trying? You only failures, you fail, you try. I was like, that's badass. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to do this. How many people showed up to this meeting?

Oh, it's huge. It was in a post theater, right? So easily, easily half of those seats were filled. Oh, Yeah. And That's just one base. Yep. And it was just one briefing. There were several briefings in this week that they were there, right? Oh, well.

So they were going to have these briefings all week and then the PT test for those that were interested at the end of the week. We're doing initial PT test, initial screen for those that haven't been screened yet. And official application and then go from there. And yeah, it was just, it was neat, it was neat to see all that kind of stuff going on. I was like, wow, that's, I still didn't see myself there, like, no shit.

This is me, right? I still didn't see me as doing this, but that thing about your only failure is your failure to try. I was like, holy shit. I was like, this is, I tried as hard as I could to get an arrange a regiment and the army shut the door, slam the door on me.

I get an open door to go to the queue course. Okay, good thing I get Panama just cause out of this thing get a lot of good experience there and life's experience out of that stuff leadership stuff And then that delays my whole cue course thing and In my mind and a lot of people I think is pretty common to think that You should probably do some things before you get there, right? And I thought well my grant man. I've marched 100 mile road marches,

50 mile road marches with the Rucksacks. I go on and get to, at the end of a 25-rowed march, we'll do it. Hit on a target. How hard can it be, right? Yeah. Oh my God. Totally underestimated my abilities.

Overestimated my abilities. Underestimated what they were gonna throw at me. But my mentality was, my whole mindset was, well, I'm not gonna quit, and I don't care what you throw at me. I'm gonna do it the best I can. And then when they, during that thing, during the briefing, and when you get there

and the initial briefings, it's like, just do the best you can. We'll assess whether that's good enough or not, right? So, all those things is what this super motivated me to do that. This was a relatively new unit at the time. Ten years, yeah. Ten years into thing, which is an interesting story I have at, because you do a panel interview at the end, right? But when I when I finally go the first time,

there's a lot of people that showed up there that weren't, didn't have any intention to do anything. They're trying to get out of deployments and all that other stuff. And they're not there to try. They're just there for other reasons. And of course, they're going to fail out. But I get there, I don't know anybody in the unit at the time. I don't know anybody who's I do know two guys that tried back early in the 80s That left no so early in the 80s. This is really new right? So this is 82 83 the unit is just brand new right?

I mean does it you know the whole thing in a desert right right? That just happened years, a couple of years before that. So I knew two NCOs that left studs, triathletes, the whole thing, they go and they don't make it. That was another thing that kind of always stuck in my mind for what, 10, almost 10 years, 7 and 10 years, something like that. That one guy came back with about two weeks. I don't remember the timeframe. He came back and he's like, well Usually you come back from a

Any training and if you don't make it here you're a shitbag, right? He came back. He's like I was the best thing I ever Could have done in my life Unfortunately, I didn't make it I'm not I'm not the person that they want Unfortunately, I didn't make it. I'm not the person that they want. But he gave it everything he had. He was, but so good on him.

Because if they want more than what I was able to give, that's fucking badass. He goes, I gave him everything I had and it's not good enough. And they told me that, just like that. I was like, wow. That's not normal either, right? Yeah.

I was like, huh. and he was fine saying that. That says a lot about that person. He didn't come back and say, I'm a failure. I failed at this. He came back and said, I'm not going back because I literally gave him everything that I had and I don't have any more to give. So I guess I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. Soldering in an eight 80s, right?

The other dude comes back another week or two later. So he makes it further down the process. He comes back, doesn't make it, says the same thing. I was like, well, first of all, these two studs, I was like, holy shit, you know, they didn't make it, but they're not complaining about anything. They're appreciative of the time that they spent. They're like, well, I guess I'm not what they're looking for, because I gave them everything

that I had, and they told me it wasn't enough. You're not the person that we were. All right, why did that? That's the one best place about that. You don't have to, there's no false bravado stuff. There's no, it's upfront conversations. You're the good enough, or you're not. You're putting out, or you're not.

And if you're not putting out, well, get your shit together. So on such an open environment to say, even in harsher terms, like, you know, get your shit together, or you're fucking hitting the bricks, right? Yeah. But you are never in any, you're never on, don't know where you stand, right? You get the good or you're not.

And if you're not, you better get good or find another job. I mean, there's no, there's no animosity, there's no, there's nothing to hold on anybody, you know. It's just matter of fact. There's no grudges, yeah, there's nothing. I don't care where you came from, just do your job.

That's all we're asking you to do. Do this job, do the best that you can. Now we're asking you to do more, right? It was all when you eventually make it in. It's like, yeah, you're expected to do your job and much more to the best to just get better. Just like be a professional soldier and then be a professional like command. This is what you signed up to do. So they asked everything of you and you put heart and 10% into it. And if it it. If you're not doing that, then it's okay,

but buying something else to work. So there's no, you do your evaluation assessment, operate your training course and all that stuff, official selection, and then once you get there though, it's like it's expected of you to do all that you can to be the best that you can every day you show up for work. And if you don't show up for work or if you don't want to show up for work, okay, everybody gets burned out, that's fine. Just find another place to go work.

Otherwise, if you help work, let's get it all right. Let's do it. I'd loved it. That was the best time ever. And there's some sacrifices. If you're gonna be a professional on the best at what you do with that, there's some sacrifices that have to be made with family

and free time and everything else. And yeah, because if you're not deployed, you're training to be deployed. You're constantly training to do your job. Then you do your job, then you're training to do the next job. Then you're, you know, it's constant. And I can't imagine what it was like over the last 20 years with these guys, but I mean, it's just balls the walls.

And it was the most enjoyable time, though. I mean, the expectations of you and your expectations, I was never... All I wanted was the best out of you, the whole time there. No matter what you did, it could have been shooting, moving, CQB, it could have been breaching. That was my thing. It could have been anything, it could have been an R&D project. Do the best at it that you can.

We want the best out of you, whatever you do. I mean, whatever it is. There was no need for a PT test or anything like that, because that was part of your daily life, just the job itself. You could take a PT test any time of the day, any day of the week, and it'd be nothing to you.

The running an obstacle course in the pool, right? I mean, that was like a daily thing. Hey, let's do a, at the end of every week, right? Somebody come up, hey, let's go, let's do some competition, right? It's gonna involve running, shooting, moving, swimming, everything, right? And every week, Thursday, right?

Let's do it, let's earn our weekend. And all week, Thursday, right? Let's do it. Let's let's earn our weekend. And all week, just training and training and training and running and gunning and motorcycles, ATVs, whatever it is. Mobility training, whatever. CQB, let's hit and hit and hit homes and just go over and over and over and then critique each other on everything. Every minor details. Very critical and the best hot washes and after action, reports after anything that's done, right? Do hit. Hey, what are you doing wrong here? Hey, what were you at during this time? What were you doing? Why did you do this? And then you just have to be accountable for yourself? Right, and then hold your teammates accountable. It's like, hey, you know, and it's sometimes a pretty harsh Discussion to have say what the fuck yeah, right? And they're like, what do you mean?

It's like what happened during this and they're not taking it like, hey man, you know, don't say that to me They're like, why would you see? Right and then you tell them what you saw, I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, man, and they explain it. And it's like, all right, well, sorry about that, man. I thought you were, you know, we're out of it for a minute. Even, even like family problems, family issues. So he did, you don't seem like you're here today, like 100%.

Mentally, you need to take care of something. And then, you know, let them go for the day. Hey, go home, take care of business man. We'll see you tomorrow. You know, no questions asked. We need you here at 100%. If you're not here today, then fine. Just go take care of business,

make sure everything's right, and we'll re-engage tomorrow. And nothing, I mean, it was just the best environment to be like the best you can be. I mean, you're there. I mean, the the fact that you're there. Like, you know, that doesn't fall short on anybody that's there. It's like, It's like, and everybody is in that mindset. So, I mean, all stars. It's all stars competing against all stars. And it's not an angry competition. It's like a sarcastic, I got you this time, right?

And it's like, I'll get you next time, motherfucker. It's just, always just, you know, that competitive environment is just, breeds the best. I mean, you can't do anything but get better at what you're doing no matter what it is. Let's talk about OTC when you got through selection. What, how was that broken up?

What was maybe, what was the toughest portion for you? I mean, let's back up a second. So you went to selection, did you realize what you had gotten yourself into? So here's the deal on that came to me, right? Right? So I didn't make it the first time. The dude, the Sergeant Major, Sergeant Major Fry, I'll say his name, because he's since retired

and all that stuff. Great dude, great guy. He was talking to me through the whole thing, and he's another one of the guys that I had talked to you was operational now in the training side of the house when he's bringing me on board. Just very matter of fact, I just kept saying, well, just do the best you can so we're asking.

And don't worry about that. You're worried about, you know, you didn't say, well, you're worried about the super shit, small shit, just, he just kept saying, don't focus on that. Just keep doing the, you know, you didn't say, well, you're worried about the super shit, small shit. He just kept saying, don't, don't focus on that. Just keep doing the best you can. And you'll be fine. That whole mentality to the whole thing was just awesome. But when I finally realized my second time through, that's why he became back. So I don't, I made it pretty far. I didn't know that how far I made it in the process, but I made it pretty decently. I come after I made it and I find out, oh shit, that was the point where I got cut the last time.

I get back and really it... very smooth and I attribute all that to just training. I didn't over train. I trained just good enough. I didn't, I did make some of the same training. I didn't over train, I trained just good enough. I didn't, I did make some of the same mistakes. I did on navigation, but I made up for it. I knew I had to make up for it, apparently, as I made it. And eventually you make it to the end of this one spot, the official selection phase,

and you're allowed to drink, you're told to have a seat, get on warm with something warm and dry and set by the fire with whoever's there. There was two people that were there other selectees. That's it. Yep. And so there's three of it. Out of that class, I think there's 12 total. I don't know how many of you can see. I don't know how many of you can see. That's how many of my OTC class. 12 people.

I think so. Yeah. And they have this, the grog mix, whatever that is, fruit, wine, whatever they call that stuff. Drink that, it's horrible. But I was warm socks, dry t-shirt, and all that shit. And then you're told you officially made it past the official selection phase of the process. I really didn't sink in. I mean, I was beat. I was just, ugh. So it's like, we're gonna pass out. You're like, what the fuck are we trying out for?

Yeah. Who are you guys? I've never heard of this place. There's nothing cool about what just happened. Where's all the helicopters and their cool stuff, right? And then there's the board. And when I realized the composition of the board, it members, they're all the senior, the squadron commanders, unit commanders, are major and at the time, so this is 90. They're all the tank owners. They're all the plank owners. They're all the guys that were in Desert 1, right?

It's like, they were the guys who started the whole thing. Other than Schumacher-Schumacher had gone on since then, back with his long since being gone out of the unit, his stuff by then. All these guys were the assaulters, the troop commanders, the troop serge majors, and the assultors, and the snipers that were there for Desert 1. And so you're just like kind of like this, right? You're sitting in the seat in the middle of this, like three or four rows. You just seem like a whole wall of faces at me. The first row, you didn't command your Sergeant Major. Schumacher was the commander of the time

and Bobby Little is the Sarmager, Keith Perdue, eventually was my Sarmager, he's sitting there. And a couple of them, it seemed like all of them had a cigar. So that's all I remember, because they're sitting there, you know, like, you know, with their cigars. And like, I'm like, looking at him, starstruck.

Like, as I'm panning this crowd, I'm like, starstruck is the only thing I can think of as a, what I was thinking at the time. And I remember, so our major fry, he's off on the side, and he's the only recognizable face because he's been talking to me this whole time. And the psychs there, psychologists are there and all this other stuff. And there's some questions there, but they're asked, I don't remember all of them, but the only thing I remember thinking, I just kept looking around, I'm doing my military scene, and they kept

saying, relax. I'm actually talking about. I'm sitting here getting questioned by the original guy. It's a totally starstruck by the whole situation. I was like, what the hell am I doing here with these guys? I was just a grunt. That's one of the things they ask me. So we have guys that have done a lot of things in their careers and they have a lot of experience and stuff like that. That was one of the things they asked me. I was like, what do you bring to the table? And I'm looking at these guys. He's just desert one, dude. So I was like, I'm thinking, I've gotten up. I was like, well, so I'm an engineer. I know explosives. I started just rattling off.

I just nervously rattling off a bunch of stuff. And I'm willing to learn. I just want to do this not only for myself, but for my country and all this other stuff. I'll just randomly doing some other stuff. I don't even remember what I was saying exactly. And I'm just thinking, what do I have to impress these guys with?

I mean, I was like, oh my God. And the other one question I do remember them asking, that one, and then we see you've been to, I have to explain the whole regiment thing, that I'm AWOL, right? They bring that up. That's how I explain that away. And they say, okay, what do I see you to explain the whole regiment thing, but I'm A.O.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W.A.W. the right thing to say, right? I said, because that, two totally different night and day courses, right? Because you're all on your own for that course. You don't have anybody to pull you through,

you don't have anybody to pull through to motivate you. It's all you in your head. Am I good enough? Am I going going fast enough and all this other stuff? And that's a whole other animal, just that was tough. Because you're the worst, you're your own worst enemy, right? And that's, holds true there. You get totally psychological mind-fuck yourself into. I'm not gonna make it. It's like some of a bitch, right?

And then back to, yes, I am gonna make it, back to on that to make it. It's like some of a bitch, right? And then back to, yes, I am going to make it back to, oh, and never make it like this. I'm, you know, back and forth, just horrible thing to go through. That's just tough. And I said, because selection, SF selection, you're with a group of guys the whole time. So you always have somebody like a, like a, like a leader that I wasn't as a grunt. I can always like, come on, move your ass and get up here. Guys who are falling out and stuff like that, you can yell at them and that motivates yourself to do better, right? You're rotating and you're doing a lot of team stuff.

So there's always somebody there to either motivate you or for you to motivate them. And that's kind of what you do there. It's kind of the whole point behind that. The whole course is teamwork and all that kind of stuff. It makes shit happen. Do the Jeep Poles and this the heavy man. That's this weird team stuff. But that's the point.

And so for that point, I said, at that moment when they asked for that question, I said, because it's so hard to motivate people who are ready to quit like that. Right? You can't just say, well, then quit then. You know? It's your job to motivate them to keep going. So I said, for that, and that aspect of my head is where I was going from. I said, probably a self-selection course.

And as soon as I said that a self-selection course. And as soon as I said that, I was looking around the crowd, I was like, what a dumbass. What a dumbass. But I didn't change my mind, I stayed with it. And so I got this, this, huh.

That's what, why would you say that? They're like, we need to revamp this course. No. Why would you say that? They're like, we need to revamp this course. Why would you say that? And I explained it and they understood it because most of them have been through it. At least the process. And then it was like the only other thing. It was like, okay.

Go leave the room so we can talk about you and determine your future. thing is like, okay, go leave the room so we can talk about you and determine your future. I'll say, oh my God, so I'm getting up on the chair thinking, oh my God, I just screwed everything up, saying that. I'm just back into my head again, going, oh my God, you just screwed it up, you did all this for nothing. I go and sorry, Major Fry gets me into this.

So in the mud room in these buildings, in a regular storefront too, they'll have an outer door and an inner door. Then there's always a vent to, like going in a restaurant, they'll have a lot to keep the flies out and the weather out. There's a little, like a fourier,

between the two doors. And so that's where they put you. That's where they turned up the heat and that thing. Cause it's called the sweat box. Is it? Yes. And I go in there and I'm just beating myself up in my head going, oh my God, why did I say that?

Why did I say, what was I thinking? These guys know better than that, right? And I was like, just all in my head. And sorry, I'm ready to fry. He comes out and he's like, so how do you think you did? He's like, all right, they're ready for you to come back in. He's like, how do you think you did? I was like, man, I screwed up, sorry, I'm ready to do it.

I'm not feeling good about this. But thank you for allowing me to come back and try, right? And he's like, don't worry about it. They'll let you know what they decided. And yeah, let's go in and see. So I went in, sat in a hot chair from these guys again. And I'm saying, so who are these guys? My heroes in life.

Like I read about in all these books and magazines, going to say about me. And totally hit my mind by surprise. So I'm sitting there and they said, we, something did affect that. We've decided to take you on as apprentice, which means you get to go to the operator training course and attend the operator training course. I'm sitting there thinking,

oh my God. Oh my God, what did I just do? Now the fun begins, right? And I was like, just sitting there. I was like, thank you, sir, because it's Colonel Schumacher at the time. So I think, sir Little is a congratulations.

And then they all start saying congratulations. We've decided to take you on as an apprentice in the 10th of the upper training course. And they're starting to say that. They say a few things, the psych, I don't know if there's a mind game or something like that, but they ask the psychologist,

so you're what do you think? And you know, a lot of stuff. And it's just a real brief thing for that moment. And I said, well, congratulations. We've decided to take them. I was apprentice in a 10-and-a-next operator training course. And I was like, lost my words. I was like, you've got to be shitin' me.

I'm thinking, oh my God, I just made it. Damn. And then, I was looking at every, and then they're like, you've got to be shitting me. I'm thinking, oh my God, I just made it. Damn. And then, I was looking at every, and then they're like, okay, you can leave now. I was just, I was like, okay, and Sergeant Major Fry, I'll let you know what the next phase is. And I go to the same barracks I was in before, but now it's the successful passing guys that are there.

And it's our major prize. Well, congratulations on porous. He's like, you know, you won't have any regrets for this. You did a great job and all good things to say about you. And now it's on to the operator training course. So I'll see you when you get the brag. The admin guys will get you hooked up with all your orders

and all that stuff. I had to go fly back to Korea out process there and come back a couple of months later. And I actually said, I was halfway through my tour in Korea. They said, that was one of the questions they asked me. What would you think if we asked you to go back and finish your tour in Korea and then come back after that? I was like, Roger that, sir.

I mean, that's what you're saying. And that's what I'll do. I'll go back and do my soldier stuff and come home back. And they didn't, they cut me my orders. I went back and my orders were already waiting on me. By the time I got the flight back to Korea and started out processing and back to brag. Yeah, it was, when I got to the barracks

after that, the interview, first of all, that's when you start feeling the pain because you're relaxed, you're showered, and now all your joints hurt and all everything hurts. You start feeling all the pain that you put your body through the last several weeks. And that's all you're, I was just sitting there in this day room area,

kitchen area, and the guys are starting to come back that are coming through the interview and one guy, he says it out loud. He's like, we made it. And I was just, I was ready to die. I was just like, oh my God, I'm so bad. And I hear him say that. I was like, I'm sitting up in my lounge chair

and I said out and was like, holy shit dude, we made it. And then another guy from, I think he was a second-range-perturbing guy. He started saying the same thing. He was like, man, we made it. And everybody just started saying that. I was like, holy shit. And then I was like, oh my God, we made it.

What? And literally, we don't know it really, but literally, I mean, OTC and everything else. That's like, it ain't just even life there. It's like, you're getting right. Now it starts. You're getting ready to put out, like, every day, you're alive, you're putting out, regardless.

But it's all fun. And it's not like you're putting out, and I've heard some guy say that too. It's like, you gotta work and hopefully, you don't get fired that day, right? But I never had that. I was never around guys that thought that and I didn't think that either. Like, I can go home today if I script today. It was just go to work.

Go to work and do the best, go all out that day until it's time to quit. And when it's time to quit. And what's time to quit? Crack a beer at the bar and you know kind of make the transition before you go home, right? Yeah. Relax, get shit showered shave, changing your cities and said the bar, have beer, relax, kind of change gears for a minute and then go home. It was just awesome. An incredible experience. How was OTC? How long was it? It was good.

So, from six months? Six months. Yeah. It's a very academic training from trade craft to hard skills, to psychological testing, to eyesight, you know, testing drills, and you name it, you went through the ringer from head to toe psychologically, physically, tactically, CQB. So, no matter where you came from, this is how we do CQB, right? And you have a lot of guys coming from different experiences.

So, I'm out of the SF community, so I'm out of the Ranger community, so I'm out of the straight-up infantry community. Were you the only one out of the infantry community? Well, no. So there were some other guys too. Straight up infantry community. Were you the only one out of the infantry community? Well, no. So there were some other guys too. I want to say he was a, well, I see a crew chief, helicopter crew chief. He was in my OTC class.

The majority of the guys, I'm guessing come from Brangert, Italian. Brangert, Italian or SF. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's probably two or three of us in my OTC. The majority of the guys I'm guessing come from Branger Battalion. Branger Battalion or SF. Oh, that. Yeah. There's probably two or three of us in my TCC out of 12. I don't want to say 12, maybe it was

a little lesser or one or two more than that, but that, not many. There's two, two roads of SNR, and our OTC photo, it wasn't much. So they actually do that. That's at the unit somewhere where it shows your selection course. It's like a whole like Battalion or Company

worth of platoons and formation, and then OTC class. Conflation. It's pretty neat to see that. I mean, we didn't see that until we actually got there. We saw it going through there. It's like, how many guys showed up? And you don't really see, once the actual end of the selection process, you don't see everybody every day. So you don't really get to get sense on who's there and who's not.

Because sometimes you won't run into people. And then you run into them a day after and like, oh, shit, I thought you were gone, man. And then, so the whole time through, you don't know where you stand and who's left. You can't talk to anybody, you can't talk to each other about stuff like that. And if you run into each other, you can't talk to anybody what you did that day. Even though they did the same thing,

but maybe- You should say- They were an individualized training. Yep. And if it was through the selection process. So in OTC, now you're able to do all this collaborative stuff. So you're finally able to do that. You're able to talk about everything you do. Like what the best shooter in the class, right? You're pimping that guy out for what is he doing? What has he been

doing to get better at shooting? But you do a lot of shooting in OTC. I mean, you're dumping some rounds in OTC to get good with a pistol and rifle. You do all the other stuff too. You know, goose-top training, heavy weapons training, CQB, all the cool stuff. If familiarity with the helicopter, starting to fly in a little birds and black hawks and all that stuff, fast-roping. Yeah. And then more. So for me the difference from basic infantry stuff is just more specialized, right? Because as a grind you can do fast-roping, you can do CQB, you can do all those other things. but you have like squads and platoons and maneuver elements and all those other things.

Now you're doing more with less. Do you think the course was more challenging for you coming from infantry versus guys coming from SF and Ranger of Ty and? Nope. Yeah. The magical thing about this whole place is all the people that end up in OTC class with some exception. Very few exceptions. There is no. You're somehow on an evil, even plain. In nobodies, there's no, there's no egos. To some extent, there's always some of that,

but they're not bashing you from where you came from or where the other person came from or the aircraft crew chief, right? The mechanic, right, that makes it through. It's like he doesn't get any treated, any different, if I'm his teammates, or the OTC cadre, that makes it through. It's like he didn't get any treated, any different, famous teammates or the OTC cadre, which are squad members.

All the guys that were our cadre, our attack were, their last thing was the Desert War. So it's a couple of more injured and recovered from injuries and stuff like that. And that's the thing you see at the unit too when you walk around just the defect. There's people who went around and crutches and wheelchairs, it's like, oh, look, shit, this is real.

These guys are in it. Right? And that's when you really get a sense of, okay, this is for real. I'm in training all my life for this stuff. And there's no time for like, oh my God, that's the reality of the situation. And there's no time for like, oh my God, that's the reality of the situation.

And it's like one of those, yep, I signed up for it. Let's do this. People in back braces, crutches, one of our cadres was shot, I think in the ankle or something like that, OTC cadre. And it's like, yeah, he didn't think anything of it. He's like, well, yeah, it's the hazards of our chosen profession, right?

And that's the mentality. It's like, like, oh my God, I got shot. I can't do this anymore. It's like, no, I'm gonna get healed and get back in it, right? So that mentality is prevalent throughout the whole building and it's just an incredible environment. There's no...

So there are like super massive egos, but you're all on the same plane, right? This is like two Super Bowl teams going at it. It's the best that they got going at it and, you know, winner take-off. You know? Maybe next time we'll get you, right? And somebody's got to win, somebody's got to lose. Right? But, oh my God, it was just an incredible environment.

It's like, there's no, you know, I had a Mocity, there's no, you know, false bravada stuff. I mean, because you'll get called out on stuff like that. And it'll show in your performance. It's like, whatever, we don't have time for that. If you perform in your performance, if you don't, you don't need to hear you yelling, you know, motivational stuff. That stuff's gone, and you left that behind in the regular army when he came to this place. General Skumakert the time when he gave the new comer briefing. He said, you guys should have talked about it if you're married.

For those of you here married, you should have talked about this before he got here. If not, we're going gonna ask everything of your husbands that are here, and this is their job. This is the first, this is them, this is what they're gonna put first. If you're okay with that, then you'll be fine. Because we're gonna ask everything of your husband, he's gonna put in a lot of extra time here

and we're gonna be deployed, and sometimes you won't even know when and where that happens, because we were all on pages back then. Pageer goes off, see ya, gotta go, go in, and it's either a training mission or a real little mission. You didn't know to get there. There were little codes that you send, but give it was just a page check, you know know things like that, but if you're okay with that

That's what you that's what you're signed up for just if you didn't didn't know it before now. This is what you signed up for and We don't have time for a drawm on all say any laid it out there is like We don't owe you say we don't owe you anything We don't owe, you know, it's like we don't owe you anything, right? You guys are putting out for this unit in our country, right? And if it's at any point too much, no questions asked. You can leave, just say the word. It, no harm, no foul. It's not a failure thing.

It's just, it happens. So if it happens to you, then just say so. Don't hide it, because that'll show them performance. Well yeah, hell my sister died when I was there too and I was like, I can't go on this mission. I was some mission coming up was I can't go on this. I mean my head's not in the game right now and they're like, oh, Roger that. Thanks for saying that. And they gave me something else to do while I was in the rear with the gear right. And I was fine with it and they were fine with else to do while I was in the rear with the gear, right? And I was fine with it, and they were fine with it. And that's exactly what everybody did.

Injuries too. Even injuries you did to yourself, you worked out too hard, you pulled a muscle or something like that. You're like, well now you can't, and now you're not employable, right? You're not employable. So that was a very thing.

So even the work out, we had people that taught us how to work out without hurting ourselves, like professionals that go in there to help us do those kind of things. And back then, before CrossFit was the whole thing, it was like training like a gymnast, right? You're not training like a bodybuilder to do bodybuilding competition. You're training to be a gymnast. You know, flexible agile, do all

these weird things, you know, because you're literally climbing buildings without your kid on, you know, fast rope and climbing ropes, climbing cave in ladders, all those things, getting into small confined spaces, you know, so it's training like a gymnast. So we had all those people coming in and teaching us how to train properly and not over train. And be always mission ready, because if you pull the muscle, sprain something,

guess what, now you're now you're a liability. And now you're gonna have to sit this one out. Sorry about that, right? And you get those talks, though. You get those talks. I mean, love that. It's like, it's interesting.

You know, I just interviewed this guy, Kyle Morgan, who was over there as well. And he had told me, I didn't realize how small Delta is. And he told me in his interview that when he graduated OTC, they gave him a number, an operator number in his... I believe his operator number was 935. And this is, I believe he got there mid-2000s. And I, when he he said that I was like holy shit. I mean What is you and it's what 50 years old ish? Yeah, yeah less 1980 so 7980

Damn to current. Yeah That's fucking incredible. Yeah, it's really fucking incredible And I didn't know what my number was. I didn't know there was a such a thing They actually came up with that later like we need need to find out something because like, it would, it being around a lot of fields over the years, right? They always have a class state that they associate, right? We'll class rein. That's the validation, right? We'll class rein. So, everybody knows. And there's a way to just find out. I didn't know what class somewhere I was. Or even my number.

And I still can't remember it to top my head, God's Sotheb. Pfft. But it was like OTC20 something, 24 or 26 or something like that. And that was 10 years into it. So there wasn't really a system until they found out, well, you know, it'd be nice to have some sort of way of finding out, you know, checking or verifying, you know, coin checking somebody like that, or a little classroom here, I don't know what class I was in.

What do you see class? I don't know. Who was in your class with you, you know, then you can start mixing a match of names. But that was it. Until just recently, I was actually deployed in Afghanistan with GRS. And former unique guy was there working in a division for the agency. And he's like, hey, did you get your knife? I was like, what, what knife? Your unit knife was like, I don't know, yeah, a knife. And yeah, it has your OTC number and your number in it, your operator number. I'll say, I don't even know we had such a thing.

He's like, yeah, they had this thing and they gave everybody numbers and class dates and all this stuff and now there's a knife. So the knife is pretty cool. So Bob Horrigan knife. So I actually have, when I left and I retired, he was making knives and he gave me one a knife that he made, Bob Horgon, for going away, retirement gift. And now he's obviously died in Iraq, Iraq or Afghanistan, I'm not sure.

But yeah, most of the guys will know that story. I don't know. I wasn't there, so I hear things. I just know that he was one of the casualties and one of the hits in the G-Wat timeframe. But he had got me a knife. It was a homemade knife. He had a great knife. And he wasn't that market hadn't really caught on yet. He was just making him and his brother, his brother,

still making him. And yeah, I have one of his original lives that he made. And that's when they modeled after to be the unit knife and then has your OTC class number and then your operator number and all kind of stuff. And I can't remember what mine is. I'd have to look it up. Yeah. But yeah.

So yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, I didn't know about it. Then I know about it now. Yeah, because it's like one of the, nobody talks about it a lot, which is great. There's not a whole lot of stuff out there. I mean, you can still find out stuff on the internet and all that kind of stuff, but you got to look for it. Yeah. So I think it's a great thing. Let's take a quick break and then when we come back, we'll talk about some of the operations that we're going on.

Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan Show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes, and leave the Sean Ryan Show review. We read every review that comes through, and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show. All right, so we got through OTC, we're showing up at Delta. Let's get into some of the missions you guys are doing over there. you guys are doing over there. So we're talking early 90s.

Presidential changeover has happened, so we have Clinton in the office, White House. So the No War President is a busy decade ahead, regardless of that fact. So there was always still the residual from Iraq. So the Desert Wars were still no fly zones, all that stuff. That's established. That's still there. We're still there. So have troops out there monitoring the no fly zone in Iraq and those kind of things. Scott Hunts, those are still those are ongoing, that's the biggest thing. So as a new guy, that's what I get rolled into.

There's so many things going on. So daily life there at the unit, every morning, Intel brief, I had no update, or at the beginning of the week at least, Intel updates what's the hottest thing going on in the world, but what's the hottest thing on the ticket for us, right? And then the rest of the week kind of just mirrors training towards those objectives.

Call outs could happen at any time during that time for any one of those things or any other number of things. So that's kind of what we're getting ready for. So when I show up, early 90s, get to my squadron, get to the team, and we have several things going on. We have, well, so Ben Lahn was always a thing. That's been going on since the late what, 80s? He's been on the FBI most one of listen then, right? So that's that's almost not an issue anymore. It's like whatever. He's just still there on the most wanted list. Um, of course the 80s and all the things that are coming out of the 80s, uh,

all the attacks in New York and everything that's happening, then those are all kind of things that have happened, but nobody's tying us things together. Interesting thing about that. As we used to say, just a normal conversation, and we're traveling around the world, and saying, well, if the bad guy's only knew how easy it would be to get a plane and fly it, get in a plane to fly into who knows where. DC, obviously, those are the big targets like that. And just because at the time, it's easy to get on a plane and go anywhere, especially if you're in Africa or in the Middle East,

somewhere, there's none of the TSA stuff that you see nowadays, or even in those countries now, it's a little bit more stricter. But then you can get on a plane, anybody, you have the money, buy a ticket, go wherever you want. Do you have a visa passport? Almost doesn't matter sometimes. So we all had that stuff, but that was some of the things that we used to do is travel

around the world and see how easy it is to get from point A to point B in these countries without any official paperwork. And that's how we knew it was easy to get around anywhere. And that's a kind of sidebar discussions about joking in the team room about, the bad guys all knew how easy it was to get around. And how easy it would have been to get a plane to fly it into when we didn't mention New York or anything,

but we thought DC and all those kind of big things. 10 years later, I guess what happens. Yeah. But early 90s, I'm a new guy, so I'm getting into the team breaching thing. I'm a team breacher, I'm an assault team, loved it. Spent most of my time on the range either shooting guns or blowing shit up and trying to figure out how to do that effectively. Both of them. Become the best at whatever it is I was doing, right?

Em blew myself up a couple times in the process. It's like how close can you get to these things, right? Yeah. So we did have technical folks to help us with the sensors and all that stuff, but, you know, not having a knuckle dragger operator. And I was like, well, let me see if I can get closer. And until you get slapped by a charge, then, okay, that's close enough. We'll back it up a couple of inches. But yeah, I got into that. So Intel stuff.

I deeds on the radar, you're still having things in Iraq going on. The Hans Blit thing in Iraq, the inspection teams, those are going on, we're trying to get in bed into those teams so we can get access to stuff in Iraq. What is the? Hans Blit, here's the UN inspection team for the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at the time. Okay. So he had these teams and we were trying to get in bed into his teams to go to get access to underground

facilities in Iraq. So he still had the no fly zone going on, the post, Gulf War stuff still you know established with the no fly zones. I deeds on the radar, he's in the Intel reports, poblatskabars being haunted in Columbia. What other things are going on? Let's start with Iraq. So you guys were embedding with these teams,

did you get in? Not me, I was new guy. So most of the senior guys were able to live a bit more experience to blend in. They were in the unit longer so they were obviously given a lot more cloud cover to do that kind of stuff more relaxed. I was a new guy concentrating on getting good at basic stuff at that point. Still not able to talk to anybody. That's kind of a...

So you're allowed to talk. I mean, it's not like, hey, shut the fuck up, new guy. But shut the fuck up, new guy. What do you know about it? Just listen and learn, right? Those are the first, you know, year that you're there out of OTC. But you think you know it all by then. And then you just, that's the beginning of it all, really.

So that's what's going on in Iraq. We get people on those teams. What is the first operation that you personally went on with your unit? Shoot I trained for all those but the so So it's a rotational thing right so the first ones were all those but in the rotation that the squadrons are rotating through the operational side those. But in the rotation that the squadrons are rotating through the operational side, those are the ones. The first one that I was on that didn't go was the IDID head, was

in Mogadishu. That totally started different than what it ended up to be. So if you think back during those times, Clinton and stuff like that. It was in 92, so I get to a squad in in 91 and 92, I'm still a new guy and you know, it's the coolest thing that I've experienced and I'm just loving life at this point, just being there and being part of the team and all this stuff. The initial call out was extremely low vis. So it was like the dirty dozen, right? Thirteen guys, an assault troop, or assault team is going to go in and one night grab them and then get them out, right? Ireland and Bogdishy International Airport, find them, fix them, grab them, take them, right?

And then if we had the flex, then it was flex. That was all the rehearsals at that point. That's how that was going down. General Boykin, then Colonel Boykin, the unit commander at the time. We go through all the drills and we're practicing and rehearsing for vehicle interdiction, which is a whole new animal with the minimal, like aircraft we were going to take. So the whole thing was initially minimum signature, 13 assaulters within the supporting package,

air crews. I don't remember how many little birds were taken in black hawks, but those are part of the package. And then a support element to get everybody on the ground in and off. There was other options to go from a seaworm platform up the coast. That was discussed, and then really we kind of focused on air landing, and then offloading the little birds and black hawks go to a target and then chase them until we found them. If we had a dry hole on the first or second or whatever, right? That was all what the training was all about. Shut down brag

for all that training. It was the best time ever. I mean, that's what you know, you're in a place that has cloud, right? Shut down Fort Bragg training area. And we have free rain to do everything we needed to do. Vehicle interdiction, airborne interdiction from helos, life fire, all this stuff. And I remember at the time, they had the new desert booths at the time. So we're just so we didn't have too much of a cinch or flying around the Fort Bragg area. Everybody stayed in their woodland camouflage, BDUs at the time.

And then because I wanted to break in my boots, I didn't want to save my boots till deployment. I wore my boots, the tan desert boots. I didn't want to save my boots until deployment. I wore my boots, the tan desert boots, because we're going to go in in desert DCUs. And so that kind of set the whole stage for everybody wearing desert boots to break any boots. You don't want to go on the mission. And that's the first time you put your new boots on and break in your boots, so that became like a The style yeah, the time But we flew around it all that stuff. I mean in in in that kind of training Task force pilots are trying to do things that they didn't do yet. It's like okay. Let's see how let's try to figure this out

You know Pretty dangerous training, right? Black hawks trying to get in a tight spaces, you know, in the map site there at Fort Bragg. Trying to support the mission, you know, that kind of stuff. Little birds almost coming, falling out of the sky just just because of the weight alone that we were putting on the birds you know in the lift capacity of the birds and all that stuff. I initially was the team I was on was gonna be so 13 assaulters that's it so amongst the 13 assaulters I was on a team that was supposed to be a blocking position around a target area. So on a little bird there was three of us.

Took away one pilot because we needed the weight to carry Mag 48's, the ammo to go with Mag 48's. I had a saw with a backpack full of ammo. The fast ropes, the crawl goose stovs, the AT44s, the claim wars, a little bit of concertina wire. And so with three guys that 200 plus pounds with all the kit, right? And then it was a flexible thing. So if you were a blocking position, literally it was set up, put claimers in your own basic, you know, back to basic infantry skills,

claymore is out, and then as soon as you leave, don't recover anything, crack the claymore's, and then get back on the birds and go. So that was gonna be, that's how it was rehearsed. That's how it was going down. The first mission planning went strictly that way. Minimal signature, I don't even know. So C-141 star lifters were the airlift at the time.

I don't even think they're in use anymore before my time. Yeah. So it was three or four of those. I don't remember how many of those to get aircraft and the assaulters and the support elements on the ground. For that one night, just one night on the ground, find them, fix them, place them up, take them back. The best training ever. And unfortunately, we didn't get to go during our time frame. So next quarter, it gets it. By the time it comes round to deployment time.

And now the plan is to hide within this whole assault force, the army from Germany and the Marines on the ground and everything else, we're going to embed this height amongst the noise with the task force, Ranger, that eventually went in, which is another squadron. And they were doing great things. I mean, the whole way through that whole thing. And I'm only getting the feedback, because I'm a preacher, right?

So I'm talking to the preachers on the ground, the senior preacher that was on the ground, he's saying, hey, what works, what doesn't work? Hey, this charge doesn't work on this door. So I'm getting great stuff. Or he's sending back target information and we're trying to figure out a charge that works best on this thing, back at Bragg. So that was kind of my whole interaction

with that whole thing. So another squadron's there. I'm back in the rear with all the other breaches figuring out what's going to work best for him, based off of the information they're sending back. what's going to work best for him based off of the information they're sending back. And then we had by the time everything goes down in October, on the third and fourth, I was already in West Virginia, we were on a support mission to run selection at that point. So that's where I was when that happened, which was, you know, kind of hard to take one because we were on the, it had evolved from the 13 guys to task

for a stranger with, you know, a slice from the third Ranger battalion. And we were, we were, when we had it first, we were hinting or maybe suggesting maybe we needed a platoon or maybe a company or a couple of platoons of rangers to do the outer cordon stuff and then maximize the operators on the target. So it's got like teams like us wouldn't be on a blocking position somewhere, we can be useful inside the target building. We were talking a platoon or two or maybe a company minus or something like that. At the time when we left it and pushed it on to whoever took it next, I might have been another squadron before the guys that left went, then it

ended up to be a whole task force, ranger, slice, bunch folks doing great things for our country. I was just awesome to hear what was going on over there. I was in a support role back at Bragg back in the rear with the gear. R&D in charges, then we went to West Virginia to do all of our other regular missions training and training support and running a selection course.

So that's part of, that's kind of neat. I mean, selection, if you're on the cadre side, you're all coming out of the squadrons to do that. You're not trainers that specifically do that. They're all coming out of the squadrons to do that. So you have some sort of impact on who's coming. All right. You fill out critique sheets every night on people

that you see significant or non-significant. What are they doing? How they doing? So that was pretty good. And then we left. So interesting thing about when I went to selection, I can't remember the call out. So it might have been the desert storm or something like that.

When I first went to selection, at one point, the young cats that were in pretty good shape left and a bunch of older dudes came in. Still in shape and stuff like that, but definitely older dudes were like, what just happened, right? Well, they got called out. So they mobilized the squadrons and then other folks that were in the building, former squadron members would go do the selection squad. Same thing happened to us. So we were there first in 93 to do the selection course and then October 3rd and 4th happens.

We get called back, we get recalled and we get backfilled by other former squadron members in the building to go finish. So that was kind of... I knew when it happened to me, I was like, what just happened, you know? So that was another moment that that happened. But yeah, it was good times. That was on the initial thing.

Only because I don't speak Spanish that well. The whole Columbia thing and the Pablo thing went away for me. They wanted all, as an air best, you know, native speakers, obviously, if you can get them, but at least if you knew some Spanish, then you went down there to support that mission. What was going on down there in Columbia?

Yeah. It was all training with the locals down there. It was always the intent, hopefully, for the local Colombians to do the work, right? But then train them to do the work the right way. With always a mindset towards, well, if we had to do it, we have grass on the ground, that no other area, and no the ground, no where the locations are. All of his locations.

It's security posture. Do what? To capture. Capture mission if it came down. Basketball? Yep. Yep. So it's always, always, always the intent to have the Colombians do it.

But if it ever came down to, okay, let's do it like Norega and all the other guys that had been snatched up with the Piffwicks and the 90s and all those guys. If it ever comes down to that, then we have guys in the ground who've seen the ground, who know where he is, who know what he looks like, who knows what his security posture is and everything else. So it'd be an easy transition. It's like almost like a ad-bond. We have guys there already that know everything about what's happening. And you were one of those guys? I got the Panama to train some of the folks,

and that's as close as I got to that. And I was just training the locals how to shoot, move, CQB, all that, to do the work, right? They're assault teams, how to do all that kind of stuff. So it's as close as I got to that one. So that's kind of been the story of all these things, right? Well, it's like, I've so close to all these things, but I never, never got there.

It's like, oh, so close with, so far. I was too young, really, junior, really, and when I say young, and the unit to get into the inspection teams for the underground facilities in Iraq stuff, priority goes to senior guys, and they get the first chop on things. Of course, they're all going on all those Um, those are the other ones. Um, Pablo ID. Uh, the desert. Um, what was it like when Pablo got when he got killed over there? Yeah. Uh, well, I think the one, the one book that is, I can't remember the name of the one, it's pretty accurate. It comes out of a second story, balcony gets on the rooftop and that's where some guys that

were on outer court on security actually end up shooting him. Then the guys come out that were chasing him, shoot him again. And he's on the rooftop of his whatever villa or complex or whatever that's called. Pretty kind of dry. So the guys that were being trained to do that did exactly what they were trained to do. And it was an outer cordon guy that actually, Colombian, who got the guy.

Who got the Colombian? Yeah. No shit. It was kind of like, hey, who's that, right? Like his advisor, right? Yeah. Who's that? This should somebody shoot that guy? Do you know the advisor?

No. No. No. No. It's probably Pablo is the book, the name of the book. It's got an orange cover on it. It's pretty accurate. There's a DEA agent in there involved. It's got an orange cover on it's pretty accurate.

Like there's a DE agent in there involved. I think in the picture of the photo that they sent everywhere, there's a DE agent in there. That's a DE agent. Yeah, so they're able to take most of the credit for any of the stuff that's happening. So, you know, good on them for all the stuff that they were doing down there. I mean, they were running the cases

and they're doing all the hard work and the investigation stuff and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that was interesting to be just a part of all those things, right? Not quite so much hands on and there on the spot, but just, even the guys that went in, Squadron went in in a Muggedy shoe and eventually just doing incredible things over there. At the Rangers and our guys out there, just incredible things they were doing. And it's just like, I think it could

have been a better story actually when it finally came out, but the original story that the historian wrote, very good in the Philadelphia Inquirer or something like that, very good about telling that story. A lot of good stuff came out in the movie that needed to come out, I think. Of course, they had to combine some characters and all that kind of stuff and the funny thing about the whole. This is my safety story. Right. When you think about it.

So I do know that story and I do that person who was there to tell that story or to actually do that. But it's actually not as they got to tell the story in the movie, right? Of that, this is my safety, right? Well, the unique asset are there, are training the Rangers just, you know, because that's what you do when you're not doing anything, go to the Ranging Shoot or CQB or whatever.

You teach them these things, how to be better at what they do. And then the concept is you know The safety thing was this right your thought process. That's the best safety that you got The joke amounts unit in the unit members at the time even at Bragg was you know, this is my safety, right? So it was like we had car 15s at the time, right? And so, very safe weapons. So there was actually a discussion between me and all the guys that were in the, that I interacted with in my squadron, my team

and all those things, other squadrons, and other guys that went through OTC with and their squadrons, like the big dilemma, and I've heard it now in training today, even the questions like, do you go back on safe every time you come off the target? Or do. Do you go back on safe every time you come off a target or you shoot and then go back on safe or, you know, those kind of questions. I hear that even today.

And that was the question then. It's like, you know, the dynamic environment that you're in, well, you know, why waste that split second over time to go for the safety and safety back on? Just keep it on. Yeah. Because there's nothing bad guys, nothing bad guys to hear from. So why go on safe? All right.

Okay, that makes sense. I mean, if you're the lead guy, then sure, why not, right? Or those kind of discussions were happening. So that thing was like, this is my safety. Those are the jokes in this sarcastic stuff we were saying amongst each other and the banter was like, this is my safety, right?

So when that happens, so when you think about a car 15 AR platform, straight across the board. You clear it, and the last thing you do in clear it, say at the barrel, if you gotta say it to barrel something like that, point of safe direction, pull the trigger, hammer falls, it's cleared. Chambers cleared, magazines, you know, has been dropped, and you're

clear at AR platform. Really, uh, press the trigger, hammer falls forward, it's safe. Well, instead of putting that magazine anywhere else, you put it back in the gun, but it won't go back on safe because the trigger, the hammer's forward, right? And any AR platform, even today, if you clear the gun and your last step is, check the chamber, remove the source feed, you know, and then your last step is to put in a safe direction, pull the trigger, it won't go back on safe,

unless it's some other modified AR platform, right? And then instead of putting in your hip pocket, putting in your kit, put the magazine back in the magazine well, now all you have to do, it's on fire already, put the magazine back into magazine well. Now all you have to do, it's on fire already. Charge your handle back to the rear and you're hot, right? That's the mindset, that's what we're doing with guns, right? Instead of taping them to the buttstocks and doing all this

weird stuff, that's not what we did. So it was like, well, clear it, hammer forward, it's going to be on fire because the hammer's forward and it's cleared and everything. Both's forward, put the magazine back in the magazine well, and now all you have to do to go hot. If something happened now, if there's a local, indig, somebody who goes crazy, charge the handle of the rear, go to work, right? So that's how that weapon in that circumstance ends up with the magazine and the magazine well, and it's on fire.

And that's how they portrayed in the movie, like, hey, that's a hot weapon, sort of. It's like, no, it's not, it's cleared, right? But that's how they kind of portrayed it in a movie. So there is discussion with the rangers, like this is your strongest safety, this is your safety right here, right? Your thought process.

Once you make the process, then process the information, identify a threat, yes, I'm going to shoot it, then shoot it, right? That's the whole process of that going on. So that was, those are all the things combined and that's how they ended up portrayed it in a movie. So that's, all the things combined, and that's how he ended up portraying it in a movie. So it's kind of funny. Didn't happen exactly like it did in a movie, but that's kind of how that holds even all

those stories get lumped into there. Yeah. Good news. I'm touching most of those guys still. The guys that I know that were there, I knew most of those out to see guys that I went with or was in a T.C. with guys that I just knew and the other squadrons. Kyle, all those guys. Yeah, it was, you know, even, could have been a better story too, but there's another book out. Why do you say that?

Why do you say it could have been a better story? Well, and the book, Day of the Ranger, right, it's more of a perspective on the unit guys that were out there. There's more feedback from them, right? So now, well, and I mean nothing by it, but in total just after action on the movie and the book, they did the best they could with, and tell the story the best way they could with the information they had, right? And the storyline based off of the book, off of Mark Bowden, writings. Great stuff. Did our guys well? And, you know, but if you read the book,

Day of the Ranger, which just was released a couple years ago, it has more of a perspective on the Unicase, which, and you have to see it, you have to read it to really tell the difference between the two. So it's either like, yeah, we got our nose bloodied and bad things happen. And when guys died, none of that is good. But this is what we do, right? And this is what happens.

So let's keep leaning into it and continue the mission, right? White house had different mindset for that, and that was it. I wanted to just pull everybody out at that point. But all the guys at the unit, like, you know, next squadron's in and bound, right? Let's Charlie Mike. And we're getting recalled from West Virginia

to backfill the squadron that just is flying out of brag, right? So that's kind of the behind the scenes, like it's not over. Yeah, we took a hard hit and got hit hard, suffered some losses, but let's get some more guys in the fight and keep doing this thing, right? We don't have them yet Mission's not done yet. So that was in the book. Day of the Ranger is more of the more the like the op the I guess the the tone of that book. Okay, so

And it's from the guys who are there They they had a he they're all in that book about telling their story like, yeah, that was that night sucked, right? But missions not done. Let's get back in it. And then it just, you know, White House had different opinions about it. What was, from your perspective, what was the morale back at the unit after that black Hawk down, after that incident happened? You guys took losses. Did you take in any losses to rob the rest of the 90s?

No, no, no, no. That was the big one. But morale was great. And it was more of a upset at the administration that they didn't let us complete our, they sent us in to do something. And I say, us collectively as the unit, right? Send us in to do something and then it pulled us out

before we got to finish it. And whatever pressures there were from the White House to get results, why don't you have a deed yet? It wasn't always perceived as a pressure to do that because all you're doing is doing your job. I'm going on another hit. This is where they say he is now, right? Or Lieutenant, and they're wrapping up...

The guys over there are wrapping up a bunch of dudes. And he was just good at this maneuvering around. There's the network that he had that was informing all the activities, hopping all over the place, and it's a hard guy to find. Especially after they were there for so long. Not just the unit, but the whole operation. I mean, the tanks rolling from Germany and all that stuff and all this other big movements going on, it wasn't a secret that things were going to happen.

The televised beach landings, I mean, it wasn't hard to figure out on his end, you know, that he should stay hidden somewhere. And that was the thing. It was more of a upset, frustrated, at not being able to finish right after being sent somewhere. That was probably the biggest over-arching kind of, I guess, thoughts everybody had. Like, man, we're right. You keep going, but you can't do it. You can't, you know, it's like, you know, it's like a K-19.

Don't release your, what you release your dog, that dog has it's like, you know, it's like a K-19. Don't release your, what you release your dog, that dog has to bite something, right? And you got, the dog has to do its thing. Same thing with the unit. Once you, once you seek them on something, you know, they gotta finish the job. And that was kind of the frustration and the attitude.

Morel was great. Yes, it sucks, always sucks to lose guys and stuff like that. And it's not like you sign up for that. You never think of yourself or your buddies as as fodder. Like, I'm here to die. Nobody says that or thinks that you're here to die. You're here to do a job. And you never even think about dying or something bad happening like that. When it does, you deal with it, right? That's part of that whole, like the training piece, right?

Are you trained to those standards? Like, OK, we're not invincible. Somebody might get hit one day. And when it does, I'm going to be ready to help. And really, that's all it was. Totally different, talking about the medical piece though. So, T-Triple C comes as a result of that, right? Cause we were packing out in our IFAX.

We had our own IV bags. So we have IV bags, cause first thing you do, stop the bleeding obviously, but then start a line because that's gonna help any other medication going in for a medical person that's coming next, right? But everybody had one. Or IFAX weren't what they are today. Yeah, IFAX today are much more stuff in them than we had then.

But guys, you know, your cargo pockets has back then, you know, an IV bag in it, or if you had a bag to put it on somewhere, a backpack or something like that, that's where your IV bag was, right? Everybody does the same thing, so it's in the same spot for everybody. Curllex bandages, a curvat, and maybe one, and now you care multiples of all this stuff, but maybe one turn a kid. That's it? Yeah. So, scissors, if you can get it, the medical shears, you know, very basic stuff, like,

nasal, pharyngeal maybe that was in there. So you had a hyphen, I don't know if they had the hyphens that we had the chest seals, the nasal pharyngeal, geol thing, whatever those things are called. So you had the basic stuff, airway, stop the bleeding, get an airway, and start a line. That was the biggest thing. Start a line. Well, that ended up to be one of the huge learning points

in there and the medical side of things was, well, if you keep putting IV fluids in somebody, then it's going to keep the wound open. It's not going to coagulate. It's not going to do its normal things, right? And then seal itself maybe, hopefully. But you're going to keep bleeding out. And that's, unfortunately, happened in some cases.

But then that all went away. So no more IV fluids. That's not your first stick. We were sticking. That was part of our daily training. Do something. Stick somebody with an IV fluid. So in the heat of the summer days in North Carolina,

though, it was, yeah, stick me, because I'm de-octrinated right after a day of training. And-or drinking. Yeah, or that. And, yeah, so that used to be the thing then, that's not what you're supposed to do at all these days. Yeah. I mean, that's the last thing I think about now.

So a lot of good things come out of that. And then, like you said, I mean, like you're asking about the morale after that, it was more frustration over the administration not allowing things to allow our guys to continue to fight, continue the mission. Yeah. I've, I don't know, the proper terminology,

but maybe felt victim to that several times. And I know how fucking frustrating that shit can be. Yeah. For me, it was demoralizing. It, I was so upset about when that would happen. But that's me. Yeah. And I felt it. And I wasn't even on a deployable squadron. So the two squadron, the one that was there when it happened and the one that deployed after that, I'm sure they felt all of that. And I can't remember any of the interviews

or books and anything, anybody that has seen anything, ever said anything about that afterwards, but for the most part, it was just the frustration of not being able to complete your mission. But that was also, while it was the administration of the time, they didn't understand how to use special operations and wouldn't use them.

You can't do that. You can't, you know, once you go all in, you can't pull back, right? You know, commitment. Once you commit, you're committed. Yeah, I've been on all those things that were called back like Get to get the places and And then the eventually gets canceled, you know and for me personally I was on like a lot of those or unfortunately I didn't get to go at all So like for my perspective and that one incident for Mogadishu. It's like I did

The best training I was like wow the first cut the best training. I was like, wow, the first cut, the 13, right? I was part of that 13. I was like, this is exactly what I signed up for. This is exactly what everybody here comes here for. This is the black ops of black ops, right? This is what movies and books were made of. Not that I was thinking of making one, but I was like, this is what you read about,

and I'm a part of it, right? So for me, that whole incident that I wasn't able to even deploy was kind of, you know, that was kind of a thing. I was kind of, you know, say, well, I guess it wasn't meant to be, right? I guess all the people watching over me decided I wasn't going to go on this one, right? Yeah.

So I kind of resolved myself to those kind of things every time I was, you know, on a mission then off a mission. On a mission, off a mission, I was like, well, okay, I guess I wasn't supposed to go on that one. So I guess the first one would be all the Bosnia stuff, all the Piffwick stuff. Interesting. What was going on then in Bosnia?

So we were on the wrong side of that one at first from a country perspective, because it seemed like a traditional Christian Muslim fight going on. So we were obviously with the Christian side of things, ended up flip-flopping, because they're the ones who are doing all the killing and the atrocities out there and all the horrible things out there.

So the first one I was, I think we on, I want to say we were on like a block leave a time of the year we were able to take some leave and I didn't I wasn't gone yet. I was there for another week. There was only a handful of us there in the squad when I was in to one of the troop commanders. there's only half a dozen of us and we're not on mission cycle, we're not on training cycle, we're not on leave cycle, we're just not, those of us there are just not gone yet. It's worth working out, we're going to the range, we're just relaxing and doing things that we do every day.

One of the troop commanders comes in and asks, he says, hey, I just came out of this meeting, we got to do this, get a course of action on this one hit. So he tells us about whatever the dues name is over there. I always mess that one up, the main Pipwick over there. Yeah. He was on this compound, it's super secure. He's got this army around him.

And he always travels with the detail. His place is a fortress that can't be his. It's impossible to get out of him. We got to figure out a way to get this guy for the taking to the Hagen, trying and all that stuff. All as part of that initial conversation and I was still kind of relatively new. And so it was like, okay, he goes to this place, he travels here and he travels here. And these are all like super secure places and he's got armies and army at each one to protect them.

So, this is the ugliest of all situations. So we've got to fight a wien and fight a wien out against the army. So, me and a couple of the guys, just operators, knuckleheads, just talking about, well, why don't we wait till he comes out? If you say he travels, then let's get him when he's traveling. So then he's just got his detail with him. And we got that vehicle-interdiction stuff, we'll get him when he comes out. At the time... Is this like the top guy? Is this the number one?

Yep, okay. And we had trained with the Germans and what they had done. So when we trained with those forces, right, the Germans, the Brits, they're all allowed to operate in their own countries, right? So they do other things that we probably would never, would never do because we don't own the terrain that we're on. One of the things we work with the Germans on, so we go over there, we're with the GST-9, and they had this vehicle, NET, that they stop cars with. Last minute, it goes

up, NET goes into it, just like a... Like an oversized volleyball net? Yeah, no shit. It's just like a carrier net, right? So the planes don't fly off the end when they're stopped when they land on a carrier, right? It's up to its for vehicles. And we didn't see collectively when we were training with the Germans that we'd ever be able to use it, because we don't own the territory where we go. It's all non-permissive environments and all this other stuff. And just for shits and grins, I asked to get one of their training devices and then contact information for other stuff so we can use it. If one day we ever use it and they gave

us one, they gave us two. We took them, I took them up stage to the cage where I have all my breaching stuff. I was like, well, you know, this may or not be anything one day, right? Well, we get this call out to do this mission planning for this guy and that was kind of in the back of my head. It's like, let's wait for him to go get out. And it's Bosnia. So there's streets, there's trees on the sides of the road. So these are things you need to anchor this net to. Cars on the side of the road, you can use a car

to anchor this thing. We can park a car somewhere and do these kind of things with it, spike the tires, put up the net, and trap people in the car, and then assault the car, right? And we threw that out there, I mean, it's the other car. We're like, well, let's wait. How about we wait for them to get out? Come out of the thing. We'll hit the first car, and let it go past, and let it go past and then put it the net for the limo, the car he's in, trap the other guys with fixman fire on them if they shoot the follow car because that's the car with the guns. We got those guys, sniper overwatch, guys in support position, support by fire

positions, all that stuff. Seal off the objective, typical ambush kind of stuff, right? Basic infrashery stuff, but with vehicle nets. And yeah, we ordered vehicle nets and went after them that way. No shit. Yeah, yeah. And we set up a bunch of different things too, but that was one of the things that we took over there

to get the situation in our right, and we could do it, but that was one of the things that we took over there to, yeah, if the situation was right, and we could do it, then we'll put up the net, so we actually use that. You did use it. Yeah. Yep. I'm just curious, because I just have all these things going wrong

in my head, trying to catch a vehicle with a fucking net. How the hell do you anchor a net? Yeah, it's pretty, well, I mean, because I would think the car hits the net, maybe it slows it down and then the straps bust. So the other aspect of this whole thing is the car he drives in is an armored vehicle, right? And so we went through a bunch of,

how do you break into an armored vehicle thing? So we did a bunch of testing and all that stuff. Explosive, not explosive, manual breaching to get into the car itself. And it became a really easy thing about, so if you can use another car of similar size and weight, right, on both ends of the street. And then the net lays on the ground. And then you can let other cars pass by. And then when your car comes, it's on like a locking device, like a one-way locking device, right? So you stretch it up, the net comes up, and then a car just like a plane on an aircraft

carrier, so it doesn't fly off the end and gets caught Drives into the net and if the if your catch car weighs Happier than the two cars you got anchor to it's gonna. It's gonna work You know, it's gonna collapse in right? It's gonna pull those cars in right? So the net gets tighter around the doors of the vehicle Oh, okay, so but there's no way that going to be able to drag to other cars for very far and it's going to have some movement right. So you have to plan all your your assault force and you know particular spot that because the car is going to keep moving for a little bit. So all this momentum

you know comes to a halt and then nets collapse around the car they can't get out and then so how do you get into an armored vehicle? Well there's a bunch of ways to get into it but what ended up happening was shotgun CS rounds right into the air ducts and they just wait for them to want to get out right so if a douche douche CS CS you know shotgun shells into the air ducts and they'll want to get out pretty off that yeah and not a shots fired at that point and if they want to shoot them so shoot their way out of it then okay Roger that there's guys with guns waiting for them you know to answer that mail how do you so did you guys have it intel on his specific robe? Oh yeah.

Yeah, there's, that was well known. And then there's only so many places in Bosnia, depending on where you go. Like if you were in a major metropolitan area, there's different routes you can take. But most of these were country roads. You know, you pick your town. Oh, good.

You pick your ambush site. Channelize them into an area where they get on a single road access. There's an obstacle on one side could be a creek or a river on one side so they can't avoid to the left and there's a mountain or a slope on the right. So they're pretty much stuff. Right to go down this road. A couple cars if there's no cars on it, you can use guard rails for anchors to or trees. And that place was perfect for all that stuff. So we picked, you know, specific places and times,

you know, typical basic infantry ambush 101 stuff. It wasn't that difficult. That's like one of those things. It's like, you know, mastering the basics kind of stuff, right? And so it doesn't, it's a synambus. I mean, it sounds, at first, it sounds simple to me. Now I'm thinking about all the shit that can go wrong

and it sounds extremely fucking complicated with only, I think, what did you say, 13 operators? Well, for this, that's probably about the same. Yeah, plus sniper support. Because I mean, if he takes a wrong turn, then the net's worthless. If he's late, then you're hanging your ass out in the middle of the road with a fucking net out there.

And I'm sure that's attracting attention while there's a big net in the middle of the road with the locals. And then you guys gotta be hidden. Yeah. Yeah. If you're're in the country there's, I mean, what do you guys glee up? And they're, no, it's very, we're in the cities. Okay. So the dress over there for, it was either Western or, or traditional Muslim or Western. Western where so dark jeans, not light jeans, but dark jeans, very European.

Leather coats, leather jackets, or something that that effect. So it wasn't too hard to blend in? No, okay. Yeah, that was pretty easy for a lot of girls over there to operate like that. I ended up, I was in a squadron ops, through this whole thing, I ended up in squadron ops.

And so I'm now one of the drivers to infill teams to their ambush sites. So I was actually dressed like that with other operations guys to help infill all the assault teams, all the ambush teams. So that was interesting, just driving around, doing whatever we wanted to do.

Yeah. There's a couple of hairy moments doing that kind of stuff, but we got out of them fine. What kind of hairy moments doing that kind of stuff, but we got out of them fine. We're kind of hairy moments. One specific, we're coming off of a target. We went in, it was nothing happened that night, so we infill these guys in the assault team. We stay on target the whole night.

Nothing's happening. Nothing happens all night. It's starting to get late. End of the window. All right, rolling things up. Everybody gets, so I, I'm in, it's a, like a bread truck cargo van kind of thing. It's pretty big. Like a moving van. And we're driving back. So I got to, I got to drive to a spot, park it. And, you know, so that's like a cover stop that I have. I'm gonna stop, let the hood check my engine. This is all at night.

You know, kick the tires, just like I have a reason to be outside of my truck. And the guys are jumping into the back at the same time, shutting the door, and then I just go back there and lock it up, make sure that they're concealed in the back of the truck. And the, my 18 Delta are unit dock. He's drive the truck in my truck, and there's two other operators and squadron ops that

are driving the front truck and another person, there's three people in the front truck and we passed this checkpoint and there's two delivery trucks and I've been the second delivery truck and it's mountainous road and first truck goes by and they do the whole wave, hey, how's it going? We're just delivering,

searing the water, whatever. They're just waving and smiling. And they could drive by. And so I have just typical worth our GRS moves to, I have my car 15, I got, you know, from the windows sealed down, I have all my tactical stuff. And up here I just have my regular shirt. And so we were driving past the,

we're coming up to the checkpoint and we're doing this, you know, hello, how's it going? Hey guys, nothing to see here, you know? And something happened to where I just learned it and maybe they were just gonna say, let's go stop them anyway, just whatever they got, whatever it is they were going through at the checkpoint. We both were all through there.

It's a mountain pass road. I'm looking at a rear view, a side view mirror, the driver's side view mirror. I see that the car started rolling and disappears because it's a windy road. Then it appears, reappears and disappears. I was like, oh shit, he's coming. So the guys in the back have been up all night, right? So they're typical operator stuff, right? They get in the back and all the get- cheers off, they're just crashing out late all over the place, right? So the car comes and then I see it turn on,

I said, maybe it's just under the car that was on the road behind us and they're just back there. Well, then I see the blue lights come on. I was like, oh shit, that was the checkpoint. So I get on the radio and I said, hey, there's a car behind us that's coming up quick. It's got his lights on. Maybe going to somewhere in front of us?

Who knows? But get on the radio and say that. And I knock on the back. And I said, hey guys, wake up. Get your shit on. There's a car coming. Am I having an incident? And so when I say loose follow, we weren't following

like nut to butt on the other truck. But it was enough within small arms range to cover them by fire if we had to. And they zipped past us. And I said, I get on the radio, I was like, vehicles all clear. It's still coming to you on the front vehicle. So, you know, make some room.

So I think it's gonna keep on going. Well, they duck in behind that truck, which has got part of the assault team on it too. And they pulled over and I was like, oh, shit, here we go. I was like, hey, we're stopped. Continued to see whatever it was. You know, lead vehicle stop. There's two people, ones on the left side of the truck, ones on the right side of the truck. Don't come out yet. And so I had our medic. I said, well, it's like, we don't have to deploy this whole force behind us. You know, we can take care of this.

I was like, hey, I got the guy on the right. So I put my car 15 in the V in the, on my side of the car. It's like, I got this guy and then open Mike in the vehicle in front of us so we can hear what's going on. And one of the guys we had up there spoke the language, so she's talking to them and several creation and all this other stuff. And I told the medic, I said, get the guy on the driver's side.

If he does anything, it's like, take care of business on your side. As soon as, if you, little backs of the like, if you hear me shoot, you shoot, right? Yeah. And I'll do the same, right? And so it's dark and they can't see anything. Because our headlights are blinding them, but they're looking back at us. Plus, their cars in front of us, their police car, with the blue lights going on.

And I hear them there like, you know, they said all the same things. What are you doing? Who are you working for? And they give them their story. And what's in the back, and I knew to see in the back, so they had to talk them out of not checking the back. We got to get some place, it's getting late, we're late, all this other stuff.

And then they finally ended up believing it, or taking them for their word, they go back to their car, and we get all buttoned up and I yell at the or I knock on the back to the assault guy the solter's on the back of the my truck I was like, hey man, it's all clear Cops get in the car. They turn around and head back to their checkpoint and I'll say well, that would have been interesting. Yeah, no shit. I had it going a little sideways, right? Because the guy on the driver's side, he came out pretty

aggressively. He came out with his side arm, with his pistol. And for a while, he was aiming at the cab of the truck. And that's when I said, hey, man, you got that guy on the left. I got the guy on the right. If I hear you shoot, I'm taking my guy, and if you hear me shoot, you take your guy, don't wait, because he's got a gun already on the cab of the truck.

But, ended up working out. We got the guys to the safe house, unloaded everything, hot wash everything, and... Damn. Eat some breakfast and call it a day. Nice, nice. Did you guys get the number one? No.

A bunch of other guys, but what did, I can't remember how one is even caught. It was later on, here's later. It was here. He got caught somewhere else. I think in another country somewhere. Oh shit. Did you guys want to go use in the nets? Yeah, you did. Yep. Yep. We stopped a couple of cars Piffwick so it was all it was all divided the whole country is divided up into areas so the US

Sector is the only up places we were allowed to operate and which is kind of problematic in the whole scheme of things because if the only up places we were allowed to operate and which is kind of problematic in the whole scheme of things because if we were actually tracking these guys, but then they go into the British section or the French section and then we're like, we're hands off, we've got to hand over this to this, to the other guys, right? To their forces on the ground.

So that was a little problematic in that sense, but other than that, the Brits did a lot of good stuff to you. Yeah, I can't remember how the number one was actually caught. I want to say he was Germany or France or somewhere when he got home. Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember that one. Look that one up online and find out how he's actually captured and taken to the Hague. Right on.

But yeah, that was good. That was good stuff. And so most of the 90s, we're going back and forth and to Bosnia, rotations, all the squadrons are rotating through there. You had mentioned at the beginning of this that we were on the wrong side. I've heard you correctly.

Can you explain that? Well, we were supporting the Christian side, the Serbos, the Christians. Because at the time, early on, they're saying things that are, I guess, so they're painting a bad picture of the Muslim side of things, turns out to be they're the ones doing all the slaughtering. They were the ones doing all the atrocities, the work. The Christians, huh? Yeah, they were doing like Trebuchinista,

it's a popular one, murdered the whole town almost. All the men, the whole town almost. All the men, the line-up, mass graves, all that kind of crap. So then that's when it finally turned the tide. Now we were out there supporting the embassy mission at the time. So at the time, early on in that whole thing, when you're here in the news reports of the trenches, people have the big trenches to walk on the streets because they can't

walk on the streets because you have the snipers there, right? And they're just shwacking anybody on the street, tunneling through the buildings, so they knock down walls so they don't have to walk on the street. So it's like rat maces all through all the major towns in Bosn walk on the street. So it's like rat maces all through all the major towns in Bosnian at the time. Serievo, all that stuff. Yeah, it was an interesting environment. So to think that I can this one

and like all the up orders and stuff like that, we're getting, like where's the safe place to run if we have to run, like a safe house or safe haven, safe place to go, things go sideways, I don't know how I'm on foot, I gotta get sore. Well, that's a mosque, right? That wouldn't be your normal thing, anywhere else in any other conflict that we've been in, right?

But those are the people that were helping us. And those are the people we're, I guess, supporting, fighting with, or fighting for, right? That's where we're grabbing all the PIF WIX for all the war crimes against all the people over there. Yeah, at one point, I don't remember when that happened. We actually, so when we're doing the UN mission, the embassy mission, we're supporting the embassy mission, just augmenting their security forces, right? This is when we're on the wrong side. We're on flotic whatever his name is on that side and the Christian side.

Then come to find out he's the one doing all the exterminating. Damn. Yeah. And then at one point early on, we switched, got on the right side and then yeah I'll I'll work down. Damn I didn't know that I did not know that what do you I'm just curious you know what do you this is opinion I think we have a long history of sticking our nose where it doesn't fucking belong. There's Americans. And what do you, did you think about that at the time? Do you think we should have been there?

I think about that in a lot of places. Me too. I think about it a lot more now than I did at the time when we were, you know, when we were operating. And because you're doing what you want to do, that's what you're trying to do, that's what you want to do, you're doing it. It's like, it's weird, but it's like heaven.

You're like, this is it, this is what the fuck I'm on this earth to do. I am on this earth to operate in a fucking war zone. Yep. And then you leave it and you're like, what the fuck were we doing there? Yeah. Yep. No, I, I, so the first time that happened was when I decided to retire at the military and I was at the unit at the time. Um, and, uh, so when I started saying that to myself, like, well, what are we even doing? It's like, how hard is that, right?

Somebody tells me that's a bad guy, go get him, Roger that. Get on a helicopter, let's go, let's go, let's go get this dude. You know, then it becomes a, okay, why, what's the end state, right? You're gonna go take the head off the stake, right? That's popular term, right?

Well, somebody's gonna take over. So that was another thing in my head. It's like, well, somebody else is somehow in the knuckleheads gonna take over and we're gonna be right back in square one, right? Cause they're not gonna stop. All the ideology stuff is still there. And somebody else is gonna step up,

but you know, which is what we would do too, right? Somebody else stepping the shoes and take over, right? So that was going through my head too and I decided to retire. I was like, well, I can keep doing this. I can go get that guy. All right, do that. Then let's go get that guy. But then it became, you know, well, I'm in All right, I do that. And then let's go get that guy. But then it became, you know, well, I'm in the right, I'm not in the right mindset. I'm not 100% in it anymore. So let me find something else to do.

Right? And I was like, well, maybe it's time to retire. Maybe this is what it's like when it's time to retire. Whether it was burned out from up tempo, whether it was just done. I'm thinking about the things that I shouldn't be thinking about. Because otherwise, it's like, this is a bad guy. We're gonna go get him and do whatever.

And then it became, well, was it kill capture? I don't know. Tell me what you wanted it is, let's do whatever. And then it became, well, was it kill capture? I don't know. Tell me what you want it is, let's do it. It becomes, it almost is nothing anymore, right? Yeah. It's like, I whatever. You know, and that's when I said, well, maybe this is, this is what it feels like when it's time to retire.

Because I always heard that. You'll know when it's time to retire. You'll know when it's time to quit. And they told us that the unit the whole time was when I was there, that whenever you don't feel like I'm gonna work, think about what you're doing, and either don't, that's fine, just tell us.

And we'll help you find another place to go work. I mean, it's not a big deal, but you gotta be there. 110% every day that you show up. And when it got to the point where I wasn't, I was like, all right, well, maybe it's time to do other things. No, let's try this color life, which didn't work out.

Oh, ha, ha, ha. Did you, did you leave the unit at all? Just that when I retired. That's it, so you got in. I was there for 10 years. So you weren't a green beret either? Yeah, so when I was there I actually went to the Q-course.

When I was at the unit. You went to the, why did you do that? I'm curious. Well, I was heading that direction and I already done SFA-S and that's where I wanted to go do. And I got to a point. So I had already maxed out, so as a 11 bravo, Grunt, I had already done all the schools that I could have done in the army for a Grunt.

So what was, so it was like, I was like, wow, I need a break, right? Got to that point. This is probably, probably mid 90s. Got to the point, it was like, you know what, I need a break. It was right after my sister died and I was like, okay, I need a break. And I was actually thinking of leaving at that time, so I was like, I'm not in anymore. Leadership at the time, so I was like, I'm not doing it anymore. Leadership at the time, I'm like, hey, take a break. I mean, find schools.

Find something to do. We'll put you on leave. We'll put you, go to some schools that you need to go to if you want to, just to get out of the way. Just get your mind somewhere. I'll get out of this place for a little bit. Take a break. And so I was looking and I was like,

I've already done all the schools I'm supposed to do. And that's how I leave all together and go do the first starting course and then go to another unit and do first sergeant time in my infantry days, right? And they would have helped me go do that, right? Get me in the course, get me a first aren't slot somewhere on Bragg, which would have been the 82nd, right? I was like, well, I don't know that that's what I want to do, but let me, how about the

cue course, right? I was like, that's a long course. That'll give me a big break. I'll get me a break for this whole, this, the unit. And you took a break to go, yeah, that was your break. Yeah. And I was initially gonna go to the Comma course.

When I was going, that's the face, then I got a Q course day. I was going to the Comma course. My alternate was the 18 Echo course, the Medic course, right? So, or Delta and Echo were my two primary and alternate. So you get a primary and then I alternate turn it. I tested out great for all those. They gave me those so I was like, okay, you could do that. And then I ended up going to selection for the unit, go to the unit. So, but those courses were too long. So, to be away from the unit that long, they can

justify that because the medic course alone is however long that is, well a year long, whatever. the medic course alone is however long that is, a year long or whatever. That's how I ended up going to the Brawba course, the Weapon Sword course, and loved every minute of it. And it was a break. It was, you know, from the environment that I was in, it was a nice break. Yeah, actually I met a tombstone there. I went to the cue course with a great day. I would love to get him on the show. I would love to get him on the show. He's great.

Maybe what he's done doing with whatever he's doing. Yeah, yeah. So I keep running into him later on too. So I went to the Q course with him. He's his, his Ranger buddy in the Q course. Just good, funny dudes. They were young and, you know, I was probably what, I don't know, 32 or three or something

when I went through the Q course. Yeah, they were good dudes. I loved every beginning of the QCourse. It was amazing. Had a fun time. It was like training. It was like, you know, back in the Infantry Days again. Had some pretty funny experiences going through the QCourse,

learning all that stuff. And now I didn't go to an active group after that, because I went right back to the unit. But if I was going to leave, then that gave me an opportunity to go to a group and set it back to the infantry stuff. So it changed my career management, MOS, and then I would then go to another group somewhere, which is probably more amenable to me to go do something after the unit, you know, kind of stuff.

But I never left. I just needed a break. That was an opportunity to go to the Q-Course. I went to the Q-Course, had a great time. And then, went back, back in action, man, back in the fight. That was good. That was a good break.

Yeah. Nice training environment. For me, it was no stress, because it was a training environment. For me it was no stress because it was a training environment and I'd already been through other stuff so it wasn't difficult. Yeah. It was different. Was it difficult for you to hang up your career over a delta? Yeah, so it was so So this happens in July so

die Two months before the planes fall out of the sky you were tired in July 2001. Yep Shit, yep, that's a tough one and to for me to retire tough one. And to for me to retire, I was thinking, you know, my head's not in the game anymore to the extent that I needed to be, or the teams needed, my teammates need me to be in. So maybe this is the right thing to do. I'll find a get out. Because I was frustrated with all the deployments with Bosnia. I was enrolling in college courses and then I had to cancel one because we're getting deployed and then was enrolling in college courses and then I had the council on because we're getting deployed and then go back in the college courses while we're back at Bragg and then

I have the councilate and it's like oh my god I got to finish this degree. For promotion stuff in the military, right? And I was like well let me just get out, I'll go back to school full time and knock that out and go straight. I only had a few guns at the time. I saw those, I'm not going to do any no more gunning, no more running, nothing. I'm going to sell my guns, I'm going to go to school, I'm going to get a real job. They didn't work out so well, but that was where I was at in my head at the time. How old are you at this point in time? 38.

You're 38 years old, you get out, you leave Delta, you think it's a good idea to go to fucking college. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Nice. I have a feeling I know how this turns out. That was horrible.

I couldn't cope with regular civilian life in general, but then there'd be a university setting. What school did you go to? University of Maryland. Nice. Yeah, and just to be around the students, and some of them were adult students as well, but some of the younger cats.

Did you join a fraternity? No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. So here's Sir, something. You missed Rush Week. Yeah. Here's one thing I thought was interesting. So the professors there, and most of them are very well

renowned and known in the community at large. This one guy is a history class and it was a history of terrorism. I was like, sign me up for that one. Interesting. Right? Yeah. I was like, that was part of my history, you know, it was going to count for all my history, you know, credits.

And perfect, right? I was like, I know all about this stuff. I'm gonna ace this one. Well, we get to this place in the textbook about where it says, you know, these are the terrorists in around the globe and we're identifying all these terrorist groups and talking about them, where they originate, all this other stuff, their history, their

current place in their activity levels and all that stuff. And this guy was working for the wasn't Homeland Security yet because that's post-9-11 stuff, but it was somewhere in the defense department for something like that, right? And great guy, talking about the history of all these terrorist organizations. It was like, perfect. This was, there was a book I can't remember, I had. Plus, that was my job, right?

I knew all about these people, you know, over the course of my unit time. And then we get to this part where he's, like, this is what America has to counter terrorism. These are the groups, the entities, all the stuff that America has to counter terrorism. And it actually says in the book, the units in this book as part of the response forces. And they describe to some extent there's a tiered system, the Navy group, and then the unit guys, you know, those are like the premier CT forces. And then he describes special forces, Rangers, seal teams, everybody else that's doing all these, you know, so calm in general.

And he says something to the effect that, for the, for the neighbors side, yeah, those guys exist. Everybody knows they exist and all this other stuff. I was like, I don't know if you're talking about the same guys that I'm thinking, you're, they're talking about on the book But okay, maybe he's working maybe he's trying to maintain their anonymity at Susanne extent, right? Because he's he knows the stuff right I feel good about this dude too His history and everything I read about him is bio and all that stuff does he know who you are?

No, okay, and then he got to the unit part. And he said, these guys don't believe a word of this. I'm working to get this changed in this text because they don't exist. And I'm, okay, I'm writing notes. And I look up, I was like, well, maybe he's trying to maintain the anonymity of the unit. I'm like, okay. All right, so I give him a benefit of the doubt. I was like, I'm thinking, okay, thank you.

I'm grateful, thank you. I'm with you on that, right? Yeah. I approach him after class, though. I said, I happened to have some first-hand experience. I just retired at the military and special operations. And I said, thank you for not mentioning, you know, the unit and all their activity and stuff like that.

Because they have, you know, Desert 1 and all those, the more publicized things in there. And he's like, he's shuffling papers on his desk and he's standing, but he's shuffling papers on it desk and he's standing, but he's shuffling papers on his desk. He looks up. He's like, yeah. He goes, he goes, what?

I said, thank you for not, you know, elaborating on that organization. And he's, he's like, yeah, he goes, no. He goes, don't believe that crap. He goes, that's something they're feeding. This guy's into DOD, somewhere as a fellow somebody, right? And as he keeps talking, he's serious about what he said in the class. And I was like, wow, and then I told him about where I just came from. And he said, no, you didn't. Like the fuck out of us. So that was one thing to me, which led me down this whole little,

this is the college experience, right? And this is a professor teaching this group of mostly kids and some adults about history of terrorism and then none of this exists. Which, okay, great. I mean, if it was his intent to maintain the anonymity of the unit, then great. But it wasn't, and he just was serious. And I was like, okay, this is Clown Show 101 stuff going on right now. So in the study groups for that class, I told everybody in my study group, I was like, just so you know, you know, secrecy, secrecy, secrecy, but it's in the book. And so I read just what was in the book,

I was in our text and I told them about it and I said, this is where I just came from. So, and I have no way to prove that to you, right? So I could be just talking out of my ass too, right? And I didn't want to say, I could bring in my DD214 and show you, you know, all that stuff. But yeah, I told them about it and they were like, oh, yeah. And they were very good about it. I mean, they don't know anything about the military or so.

This is what only they learn in the class. And like, oh, thank God. I thank God. I thank God, there's actually, we have some sort of response for all these bad things going on. I was like, yes, we do. And it was all good. It was all good with the students.

And they didn't put up a fight. One of the gals that was in a mystudy group. She mentioned that the next day about something else. And she said, well, why can't you just send in those guys to take care of this stuff. Why aren't they doing this kind of stuff? And he's like because they don't exist. What did I say yesterday? And she looked at me like I was like don't don't push the issue is what it is Yeah, take your credits and move on to the next course cooperate to graduate damn

That was the beginning of my and move on to the next course. Cooperate to graduate. Damn. That was the beginning of my frustration of just dealing with university life. Did you finish college? No. No, I did neither. So there was, so I had this thing, so I did have like a... So July I retire. Plains fall out of Sky 9-11.

I did kind of have this... Like I should go back, I need to go back. Yeah. It's like... All of a sudden your head's in the game. Yeah, this is what I should be, should have waited around for, but who would have thought? Yeah. Right. And at the time, the guy I always date at the time too,

I was like, nope, I need to, so that's the other thing too. I was, I was Mr. Angerman at the time too. I was like, I was bad. Yeah. And but I need, you know, I thought I had a good grasp of that, you know, because you have to, you have to, you have to channel that stuff, right? And to be, to do what you got to do, right? I thought I was good at that, managing it. And then, and when I think back,

I was like, well, God bless that woman because she put up with a lot of shit. Oh, it's horrible. Just stupid stuff, but not something that I thought like as a good boyfriend, I should be doing, right? Just angry. So that caused me to do some things But like as a good boyfriend, I should be doing, right? Just angry. So that caused me to do some things I probably wouldn't have done otherwise.

Just disrespectful things. Normal man stuff, right? Not holding a door open long enough or something like that or getting a door for at a car or something like that. But she stuck with me through that whole thing. I was totally angry man. But she stuck with me through that whole thing. I was a total anger man. But then even through the college years, she went back to school to get another master's degree

at the same time. I was going to undergrad stuff. And then I get this wild hair again to get back in the game. And it's already going on. So we're talking two years into it, right? So Afghanistan's gone down, Tor Boros gone down, Operation Addocon has gone down, and now we're starting to go back.

Now, we're switching focus into our rack. That's when I go to a unit function, and I find out they're starting a team or a company, triple canopy, and if you're interested, we're starting it. And we're going to do protection and all that stuff. And that's when I decided to get back in the game that way. And then went back with triple canopy in the Baghdad and started the contracting game. No, shit.

And one of the bad things I did about that one, far from our personal relationship was concerned, I didn't even confer with the scale I was dating at the time. Didn't talk to her about it. It was, hey man, going to Chicago, which is where we were based at the time, and then we're heading to Iraq to do this protection stuff. So I got like, so I gotta go. I'll see you in six months. Yeah, yeah, I was like, oh my God. And I think about it later. I thought, you know, I don't know what I was thinking at the time, but after I got to thinking about that,

I was like, what a dick. I mean, I wasn't thinking about anybody about myself, right? Yeah And I thought I was doing good things that make me feel better to get back in the game at least contribute, right to the the whole G-Wat stuff Yeah, went back over there. It was it was good for me to do the stuff and then early days of Iraq, you know, O4, running the gauntlet down a route Irish from Baghdad to the airport, right? Yeah, just got really lucky running that gauntlet every day. So route Irish for the viewers and the listeners

was the most dangerous road in all of Iraq for a couple of years at least. So, before we get into the contracting days in the early part of Iraq, let's say, Quikburg. Sound good? Next on the Sean Ryan show. good. Next on the Sean Ryan show. To maintain or build rapport for a person who's been manipulating you and canceling not acting right come up with the excuse after excuse to not meet you then I'm gonna meet you then cancel and then all

these other things he'll send you a video sends video for you to jump on really quick, salivate over and you you know, all these flags, all these red flags will happen, disregarding all those things. That meeting greet was going to happen with Darren, the Barclay, and the Jordanian officer, Intel officer. Unbeknownst them, there's like, let's go after the form this meeting greet line. All right. Uh... Then you did 16 years at CIA. And you don't think any of that shit had anything to do with us?

Oh yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Okay. All that is accumulate and accumulate effects that get to this point. The Bullwork Podcast focuses on political analysis and reporting without partisan loyalties. Real sense of day job is sprinkled on our PTSD. So things are going well, I guess. Every Monday through Friday, Charlie Sykes speaks with guests about the latest stories from inside Washington and around the world You document in a very compelling way all of the positive things have come out of this

But it also feels like we have this massive hangover No shouting or grandstanding principles over partisanship the bull work podcast wherever you listen ever you listen.