Shawn Ryan Show - #51 Chris VanSant - Delta Force Operator / The Hunt for Saddam Hussein | Part 1

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

Chris VanSant is a former Delta Force Operator & Army Ranger with 11 combat deployments and 20 years experience. VanSant took part in over 600 combat missions, including the capture of Saddam Hussein. In this episode, we'll cover his upbringing and his time in the Army Rangers & 82nd Airborne and how a DUI as a young recruit changed the course of his career. We get an in-depth look at the grueling OTC / Delta Force training pipeline and find out what its like to go straight from training into an ongoing deployment in Afghanistan, where Chris would meet his team for the first time. We wrap up with the early days of the Invasion of Iraq - history in the making. Chris currently serves on the board of the All Secure Foundation and is on a multi-year effort to complete the seven summits to raise awareness for veteran mental health and support All Secure. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://blackbuffalo.com - USE CODE "SRS" Chris VanSant Links: All Secure Foundation | Instagram | LinkedIn Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I've been having some heavy ones on here lately, right? And this week's no different, we got a two-part series with a former Delta Force operator who was on the Saddam Hussein raid, which eventually led to Saddam's execution, which is exactly what needed to happen to that human being. Please, like, comment, subscribe to the channel, please head over to Spotify and Apple Podcast. Leave us a review, subscribe there as well, and without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Chris Van Zant,

former Delta operator to the Sean Ryan Show. Love you all. This is a heavy one, and it's important. Lot of history here, enjoy it. One last thing, merch, gummy bears, all that good stuff is about to be back in stock. We have a thing we call the Sean Ryan show newsletter. Go to the description, click the link below, sign up for the newsletter,

because that's how you get notified when all this good stuff comes to market. All right, love you guys, cheers. Chris Van Zandt, welcome to the show, man. Hey man, thanks for having me, I appreciate it. Yeah, I apologize. I'm, I think I'm fighting off a little something, so my voice is a little odd, but I'll do my best. No worries, no worries at all. If you need to take a break, we'll take a break, appreciate it. But a whole career in special operations,

army special operations out of the unit. Now you're doing business consulting, you're really involved in the all-sacrific foundation. I want to touch on that at the end. Actually, I want to do more than touch on that. I want to talk about what they're doing. But for this interview, I mean, you're just a really inspiring guy.

I'm inspired by, I know my audience is going to be inspired. And a lot of wisdom, a lot of knowledge, a lot of guys coming out are looking up to people like you. And there's just a lot of knowledge. A lot of guys coming out are looking up to people like you. And there's just a lot of knowledge to give. And so I want to kind of start off with childhood, why you got into the military, what your military career was like, and then get into some of the obstacles

that you've overcome outside of the military is a civilian. And we'll kind of go from there. But real quick, at breakfast this morning, we were having a conversation about whatever you want to call it, the universe or 25 conversations. And things coming back to you. You know, if you inject good in this world, things coming back, shouting things out into the universe and then they happened.

And, you know, I just, it happened again, right there at breakfast for me. I've been having, I think, maybe some hard problems and probably something I need to get checked out, a lot of hard burn. And my wife actually brought up a dinner last night, that could be something a lot more serious. You've been having a lot of hard burn.

I'll be damned, 12 hours later, sitting at breakfast with you. And the very first conversation we have is that you just had three stents put in because they found some blockages. And these kind of things happen to me all the time. A positive one would be when I got engaged to my wife, I got engaged to her in Alaska,

and I wanted to do it under the Northern Lights. Not knowing there were seasons for that, not knowing anything. And we went there in August to do something with the Sky Jeff Reed. We did some content there. And bringing out his story. And I told him what I wanna do when he said did

that Northern Lights do not come out in August. In August. And sure as shit, second day there, we had run an ARBMB. I was going to pick the film crew up and Jeff texted me, he's like, you're not gonna believe this shit, the Northern Lights are on like full blast for like once in a,

yeah, yeah, because every now and then they have an event, yeah. Yeah, and I was like, shit, I gotta go pick the fucking film crew up. So I go pick the film crew up, they flew on separate flights, second guys flight got delayed, and he's like, you better hurry up and do it, because these things are usually out for like 10, 15 minutes and then they're gone. They must have been out for four hours,

because I brought one of them back to the Airbnb, went to pick the other one, brought him back. The second guy just got back from Europe. He wanted to talk all about his trip to Europe, and I'm like, I gotta get engaged. I gotta get the fuck out of here. Yeah. And so took off in the car, had no idea where I was gonna do it, probably drove around for an hour, finally found a park. By that time, it's like 132 in the morning, we're freezing our asses off. And she just wants to go to bed and I get out of the car with the ring

and the fucking Northern Lights are gone. And I'm standing there, she's passed out in the passenger seat. I'm like, please just give me fucking five, anybody. Anybody up there, just pull some strings for me. I need five fucking minutes just to get this done. Like we just had four or five hours of Northern Lights. I shit you not, man.

Right back on, they came, one over, grabbed my wife out of the car and... Poker up. Yep. Wake up, wake up. And we got engaged right there under the Northern Lights, and right after we got engaged, the entire sky lit up.

And it was just like, if you ever seen him? No, not in person, just videos. And I've been in Alaska, and the winter didn't see him. I've been to Iceland, but we were there in the summer, didn't see him. So it's always been something I wanted to do, so I get it. Yeah, but we were there in the summer, I didn't see him, so it's always been something I wanted to do, so I get it. Yeah, so just total magical.

And, but then, I just, you can't chalk that up as a coincidence. Nope. And, so I was just wondering if you want to share anything specifically, I know sometimes, sometimes are subtle for me, sometimes are overpowering like that, but, do you got anything? Yeah, I mean, I've said for years

like the universe talks to you and you have to pay attention. I think I've got better at listening as the years have gone by. But like this hard stuff is a great example. I've always known, so grandfather, father, brother, all had either heart attacks or open heart surgery in their 40s. So I've always been aware of the family history, but like most guys, particularly guys from

the community, I've not been the best about going to the doctor and taking care of myself. I sort of did what we had to do to remain deployable or whatever they used to call it. So now fast forward, to post I was when I got out of the service, I had some back-to-back blood tests that showed that my cholesterol was high. So I made an appointment with Cicardiologist. I was proactive. When I tried to go get referred out to a cardiologist in the beginning, they were like, now you're a young guy, you're healthy, you're in shape, like, you're not going to have any heart problems, why do you need to see a cardiologist? And I was like, no, you don't understand. And I literally had

to like fight for myself, but I knew that that was a thing. And so eventually I ended up seeing one, got on some cholesterol medication and did a stress test every two years or so. And everything was fine. My cholesterol levels were good, everything was good. But I was at work this past year, or just a year prior. And I started noticing that I felt funny. And it wasn't chest pain, it wasn't pain in my left arm. It wasn't heartburn, which is what my dad had

when the precursor to his heart attack was heartburn, not the freak out. But something was heartburn, not the freak out. But something was going on and I felt like something wasn't right. And so I listened because too many times in my life, the universe has said things and I haven't heard it or had paid attention to it. And then after the fact you realized, man, there were the signs that I should have paid attention to.

But I paid attention to it. I won't say fully, but at least enough that I said these things to my wife. And between the two of us, we agreed that I needed to get checked out. Well, when I ended up turning into a blood pressure spike, I ended up in the ER. They found nothing. Told me there was nothing. But the two of us both were like, we need to pay attention to what's going on. So we pressed the issue. I wanted to see a cardiologist, ended up with a cardiac CT, and low

and behold, I, you know, just like grandfather, father, brother, I ended up with some heart disease issues. So I had three, three blockages that were fairly substantial. Luckily, for me, modern medical science is absolutely incredible over Over a space of about six weeks, I had a couple different heart procedures. But again, it's about listening and paying attention. And then furthermore, like that, in that course of events, which was just, you know, six, seven months ago,

I'd been in a career for seven years post-service. It was great working for a great company. But, you know, had a certain amount of stress, which was part of the equation. And because I know I need to pay attention to their signs, I said, you know, and I think I need to make a change. So I did. So seven months ago, I punched out at what I was doing and stepped away after seven years and decided to take a little break and then started a consulting company. Mainly because I love the defense industry, I love the end users that we support. And I felt like I had some knowledge and experience that maybe could help some companies,

get good innovative stuff in the guy's hands. So, it's crazy how one thing will lead right into the next. Are you happier now? Yeah, I mean, I don't think you realize with any profession, as time goes on and duties and responsibilities increase, I don't think you realize the weight that you carry around until it's not there. So, you know, there wasn't an inherent amount of stress

that comes with growth and chasing the next thing as a company in the defense space. And, you know, we went from a few people to a lot of people and it just war on me. I think it was just, it was time for a change. So yes, I did. I felt lighter almost instantly and I'm sure there's a myriad of reasons that went into that.

I don't even begin to try or understand all of them, but I know that I definitely felt better and it was the right choice. Yeah. Well, every guest that comes on the show gets a present. So, sweet. Here's your gift. Thank you, sir.

You got any guesses? It's heavy. It's got some weight to it. It's got some weight. Yeah. You want a hint? Yeah. Y'all let you ask a question. One question? Yeah, one hint. want a hint? Yeah. Y'all let you ask a question.

One question? Yeah, one hint. Is it food? Yes. Alright, you can ask another one. It's legal in all 50 states. It's a leave it or not. It's food and it's legal in all 50 states.

You'll see when you open it. Go ahead and open it. Why is the legality of food half a day? Yeah. Oh, sweet. Gummy bears. That's right. So you don't know me other than what we've gotten

to know each other, but my wife will tell you, like I'm a candy hound. Me too. Like late at night, you know She's gone to bed and I'm watching TV. I'll bust out the gummy bears the gummy worms. Yeah, totally right awesome Dude, I appreciate that not to contribute to your heart disease, but you know, there's zero fat. There's no pleasure Right on Thanks,. My pleasure.

But yeah let's start let's just dive right in let's start with childhood where'd you grow up? Yeah group in Dover Delaware. Yeah the first state. A kind of a normal upbringing. I lived in the central part of the state, which is a lot of rural farmland, small community, kind of everybody knows everybody, it's grown over the years, but it's still kind of the same. I can go home and go in the grocery store and see somebody I know all these years later.

Yeah, child of divorce, but I say that for two reasons. One is to make people aware, but two to say that, you know mine wasn't that bad. It had its moments, but both my parents remarried when I was fairly young. I think I was eight or nine years old by the time they had both remarried.

And I ended up with two other good sets of people in my life. My step parents on both sides were every bit as much a part of my bringing in my life. My step-parents on both sides were every bit as much a part of my Bringing in my character and who I am as as my mom and dad like I say that as a positive I think I had some fairly decent role models as a young kid growing up. So Yeah Played sports, you know baseball was probably my my primary thing

My dad was a college baseball coach at the time. I think I was competitive from a very young age. Re-good at it? Yeah, I was a good ball player. I think that's where a lot of my competitiveness comes from was you didn't just wanna be good at it. You wanted to be good enough to make the all-star team at the end of the year.

So you could keep playing ball. Like there were a myriad of reasons. But I think a lot of my competitive drive and things like that came from athletics as a child. But yeah, I, moving into my teens, early teens, I probably was a little misbehaved. I think some of it was just where I was. It's Delaware. There's not a lot of stuff to do. It's like we had a big city or we didn't

have mountains. We had the beach in the summer. But for the most part, as a teenage boy, you're just looking for something to do to pass the time. What are you, how are you most behaving? I think I started drinking pretty early, just getting into trouble. You know, back then, you didn't, if you did something stupid as a kid in the state of Delaware when in that time frame, coughs just drove you home.

You know, they knew your parents or they were connected somehow, so you didn't get arrested or charged with things, you just sort of got you home. You know, they knew your parents or they were connected somehow. So you didn't get arrested or charged with things, you just sort of got taken home. So I think I was fortunate in that respect. But yeah, I kind of survived all that, but getting into a little bit of mischief and being a handful for my mom in particular, ay mom, I knew that I needed some structure in my life. So towards the tail end of high school, really my junior year, I think, is when I started looking at the military as an option.

And it was for a myriad of reasons, one was because I needed some structure, two was as much as I wanted to go off to college and continue to play baseball, I felt like I was gonna piss it away for lack of a better term. Like that I didn't have, I think I was aware enough that I didn't have the self discipline

that I would end up screwed it up. And I didn't want to do that. And then I had military in the family, both my grandfather's, my mom and dad's side both served in World War II. And I always say, my mom's grandfather, he was in the Army Air Corps, but he was in the Pacific Theatre most of his time, spent like four years during World War II overseas, which is a pretty substantial amount of time. Got into some trouble while he was in the service, typical young service member thing, particularly in a time of war.

But I got him, I was the youngest of all the grandkids on that side of the family, and I got him at a point in his life where he started to open up as an old man and tell some stories. And oh shit. And I just happen to be like the one grand kid that was still around.

So you're sick from school, you go to your grandparents. It's a weekend and your parents are going away knowing something, you go to your grandparents. So I ended up spending quite a bit of time with him at a point in his life when he started to share some of those things. So I got a lot of stories from World War II.

Probably some stuff I shouldn't have heard at the age that I was. But as I've said before, he always talked about that stuff, the good and the bad with such reverence. Like it was so, it was such a part of who he was. And we're talking whatever that was, you know, 50 years later or 40 years later or whatever. That I think it stuck with me. I think that that pride of having served your country in a time of need, the people that were around him when he was in the service and what they meant to him,

and his time spent, even though it led to some tough times afterwards, it was just so important to him, and I think that had an impact on me, and it's wide and up in the army. Were you, did you have siblings? I did. I had an older brother, I do, I have an older brother that's eight years older than me, so I sort of grew up like an only child because by the time I was, I don't know, I guess I was 10 years old, my brother was moving on to college.

So, I don't know if that's right. And then my parents remarried. And then my father had another child, my half sister, with my stepmom. And she's almost 10 years younger than me. So big wide spread, three different people. My brother's awesome, but we're like, I think because of that spread, we are polar opposites,

like we're two just different people. No good, and yeah. I got a theory. It seems like the majority of guys that wind up in some type of career and special operations are always the oldest. Oh, good. Yeah, the majority of them from the people

that I've interviewed are, but that makes sense, eight-year gap. You don't see a lot of close, like siblings, where the younger ones join. Yeah, but were you drawing to combat coming out of high school or? I think I was. I've never, I've never asked me that.

I don't know that I thought about it like that. Or maybe not combat. Were you drawn to being some type of a commando or, or it, it a, it a high level? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll just decide we all laugh about this. But, you know, I grew up in the 80s. You know, there, there were some good movies to back then. Yeah.

You know, and a couple of them in that stretch where like the Navy SEAL movie with Charlie Sheen, the Delta Force movie with Chuck Norris and Lee Marvin, you know, the old John Wayne, the Green Berets, like yeah, I think I was influenced by some of that. But also the point I was gonna make was, you know, all my grandfather's story is about being in the service where about being at war. No good.

You know, it wasn't like he had any like peacetime stories. Like they were all World War II overseas deployed at war. So that was my frame of reference, I think, from an early age was, that's why you go do that, because when the time comes, you need to go over there and do the best you can for your country And I think that so yeah, I think it was definitely on my mind And then trying to come in the service. Yes, I had done some research You know, we didn't have the internet back then, but it was you know There were books and things that have been written

And I think I did some homework and kind of found all the information I could. I had a buddy in school whose brother, I wouldn't say a buddy, but there's a guy that I knew that had a brother that was an Air Force combat controller. And so at one point, we were talking and I had expressed some interest in going in the service and he was telling me about this thing in the Air Force. And I was like, wow, and I was in Dover, Delarist's

Air Force town. I'd never even thought about joining the Air Force. Like it just wasn't, like I wanted to be a gun-totan, you know, infantry man or a war ranger or whatever. But he gave me the, you know, it was like that old dot matrix printed, but it was the CCTV pipeline, the CCTV and PJ pipeline and all the training

that they go through. And I was like, wow, like that. Well, I get to jump out of planes and scuba dive and snipe her school and like, all these things. I was like, they do all that before they're even like assigned to a position. I knew nothing about it. I just saw all that stuff and I thought, that's amazing.

So yeah, I went through a process. I went to see basically every recruiter and had conversations with them. And they were pretty entertaining, but I asked each one about its respective special operations and how do I get to that. And they were all kind of the same. It was like you have to pick a certain career field,

whereas, and you can volunteer, and if you don't make it through initial training, like with the Navy, like if you don't make it through, then you go be whatever profession it is that you chose. Blah, blah chose blah blah blah. And I was fairly disappointed with all of those questions and answers. And then kind of at the 11th hour,

the army, an army recruiter, not the one I had originally talked to sort of came out and grabbed me and said, hey, I heard you talk in and can I show you a video and give you some info. And he knew a little more about the Army Rangers. And so, yeah, I was hooked on Army Ranger contract knowing that that was my path to special operations because that's what I wanted to do.

Nice. How old were you when you joined? 17 when I originally signed up. 17? Yeah. But 18 by the time I went off to the service, graduated high school and in, in, uh, 95 and then went to base training at the end of that summer. I had a job down the beach. I was an ocean lifeguard and so I wanted to get like my full.

Oh, nice. Summer. Yeah, I wanted to enjoy that last summer. But that was a rewarding experience. You know what, still to this day. And anybody that's ever been there, or been through like ocean lifeguard training or like rookie weeks, or, you know,

they do their own version of a hell week. And that was some of the hardest shit I've ever done. Really? As an in shape, and I was a skinny, wiery little dude. So like I could run and things like that, but I was a skinny guy, but rookie week lifeguard training to get, to earn a spot on the Beach Patrol

was one of the hardest physical things I've ever done. No shit. Swimming and running, I mean, it's probably a lot of what you guys do in Buds, and I don't have that experience. But a lot of the things that I did in special operations and courses that I went to and selections that I went through. Yeah, I think part of the digging into how do I get through this was honestly some of those memories about how bad that one week of my life sucked when I was a kid.

No shit. I wasn't expecting that at all. I was referring to the women. Yeah. But, well, it's probably the best job to have at the beach. I'll just say that. Yeah. But, yeah, no, it was a good time. So I enjoyed that last summer, and then, and yeah, when the service went I was 18

right after the end of that summer. What were your parents thinking about? Were they behind it? They wanted you to go in the military? I think it was a combination. You know, I think they both wanted me to go to college. I think my dad wanted to at least me to give a shot at Plan Ball at the next level because I had some talent.

My mom, I think my mom was scared to death. Looking back all these years later, I've never asked her about it. But I think my mom was a little kid when my grandfather was going through some things post World War II, you know, so he got back whatever year he got home 44-45 somewhere in there And she was born in 1950 and so a lot of her early childhood He struggled with addiction and some other things And as she says all these years later, the man that you got as a grandchild is a completely different man than I had when I was that age.

But yeah, so I think she had some fears from that that made her a little worried about it. I'm not rusting. But for the most part, they were good with the decision. And yeah, that end of that summer, right? Should probably be his journey. Right on. The average on farm income in the United States was a loss of $1100.60% of U.S. port comes from one company, wholly owned by the Chinese. And farmers are more likely to commit suicide than veterans. Folks, we got a problem. I'm Lucinda, a generation farmer and founder of Moink.

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Find it at a Walmart near you, now available with a fresh new look. What, where did you go? What was your first unit that you showed up to after basic? Yeah, basic, airborne school, and then the reindeer and an octination program are RIP. And so my first unit was third reindeer battalion. Oh no, shit, you did get right in. I did, I did.

I mean, there was some hiccups along the way that had nothing to do with me. But yeah, I ended up going to RIP. I ended up getting recycled in Rip because I missed a recall formation on a weekend in the middle of the course like two weeks in and instead of kicking us out, there were like 11 of us. They just recycled a saw. So I did Rip twice, which was cool because I met a bunch of guys early on in my Ranger career that I still know to this day. I got two classes instead of one of guys that did that. You know what I'm, you know how it is.

Yep. But yeah, I got through it, went to third Ranger battalion. And this was, you know, 95, 96. So, you know, at the time, you know, you had B company, 375 is the company that was involved in, in Somalia, in the Black Hawk Down incident in 93. So there was a lot of, and then you still had like Grenada Raiders and Panama guys that were still around the battalion.

So even though it's a peacetime war, and we weren't involved in anything at the time, there was quite a bit of legacy and history and third reign of time. Yeah, but you showed up with a shit ton of experience on board. Can you, I haven't had any Rangers on yet. And I understand the difference, but I think a lot of the civilian population

do not understand the difference. There's tabbed Rangers and their schoolhouse Rangers, and it is confusing for a lot of people. Can you kind of clean that up a little bit? Yeah, I mean, Ranger School is an Army School. For a lot of years, I don't know what they classify it as now, but for a lot of years, you know, that people define it as a leadership course. And I think it still is to this day, you know, it's about leading small units

in combat, preparation and understanding of operations orders, patrolling, basically small unit tactics in various environments. Ranger Regiment is a unit. So when you first go to the Ranger Regiment, you are not Ranger qualified. You haven't been to Ranger School, even though you're serving in the Ranger Regiment. Part of the pipeline for you as a young soldier in the Ranger Regiment is to attend Ranger School. So typically, guys do it early on in their career when they're a young private or a specialist They go to Ranger school. They earn the Ranger tab then they come back and they're prepared You know mentally and intellectually for that next leadership position, which is a team leader So yeah, you have anyone can go to Ranger school

It's typically part of the pipeline and infantry officers and combat arms officers in the army anyone can go to Ranger School. It's typically part of the pipeline and infantry officers and combat arms officers in the Army, typically they go to Ranger School right away to gain that leadership and experience training and that hardship and overcoming that before they go on lead troops. So yeah, there is a difference. There's lots of guys in the service

that have never been an army ranger that have a ranger tab and are called Ranger Qualified. So I think I may have misspoke on that. Is it a regimental ranger versus a tab ranger or is it a schoolhouse ranger versus a tab ranger? There's a, how do I say it? Yeah, how do you say it? If you ever served in the Rangers,

so in the Ranger Regiment, first, second, and a third Ranger Battalion, or the Regiment itself, you're an Army Ranger. If you went to school, but never served in the Ranger Regiment, you are Ranger qualified. Okay. That's how most guys in the Army refer to it. All right. So, I had heartache with that for a lot of years I know a lot of guys did so I went to the regiment as a young private and a year after being there I had an alcohol related incident. I had a DUI and

At the time if you had an alcohol related incident you had to leave So I left the regiment after about a year and change for having this alcohol related incident So even though I served there, I trained there, and I was a part of that organization, I left. Well, then I never ended up going to Ranger School. Like it just never happened. The way path that my career took, I never did it. And so for years, people would be like,

were you an Army Ranger? And I would be like hesitant to say yes. Because like I just described to you, well yeah, I was, but my brain would go kinda. Yeah. But were you? You know what I mean? I had, but the reality was, as time went by,

and I listened to more guys that have been there for a really long time is, you know, whether you spent a week a day or 20 years in the regiment, if you served in the regiment, you can call yourself an Army Ranger. And so eventually I got over it. And that year, that short little time that I had in that organization, you know, I got more training and leadership development and that stretch of time than I would have gotten in several years in a conventional unit. So when something bad happened like that, and I had to like pull my boots up and

overcome it, I think the fact that I had done all of those things in that short period of time, contributed to my success when I had to go out and overcome this obstacle of having just made a mistake. So when I ended up in the regular army, I think it allowed me to more quickly adjust to having the personal confidence that if I keep at this and excel, I can get back on track where I need to be. But that took a few years. What's the culture like at the Ranger Regiment? Especially.

You said you got in at 94.95? 95.96, yeah. And small, it was 93. Yeah, so it's three years later. Yeah, culture wise, I mean, it was the hardest train in place in the army. Like you were always doing something. So, you know, you got up five o'clock in the morning, went to PT every morning as a as a platoon or a squad, always pushing hard, you know, you had to be able to max your PT tests and all that.

Yeah, it was some hard charge and hard training dudes, which wasn't necessarily the case in the rest of the commercial army. Okay. Yeah. So, when you leave that and having that been your only norm after basic training everyone's going all that, and then you go out to big service, and there's dudes that are overweight and there's guys that can barely pass their pushups or whatever on the PT test. It's a pretty eye-opening experience

because I had no idea, I had no frame of reference that the rest of the army, even in combat arms, could frankly be like that. Yeah. So yeah, it was easy to excel in that environment, but it was a pretty big culture shock going from one extreme to the other. When I don't want to go into it yet, but when did you go from Ranger Regiment to conventional,

or did you go somewhere else and then go to conventional? No, I went to conventional. I went from third Ranger battalion to third Infantry Division. So I went from being an airborne Ranger serving in the regiment to a mechanized infantry battalion where I was riding around in tracks and tanks Because I was a 11 Charlie so in the regiment I was in weapons of tune. I was a mortar guy And because I was an 11 Charlie they had a few more options with me than they did like a standard rifleman 11 Bravo

So they sent me to to what's called Kelly Hill, where third-in-fature division was still on Fort Benning. So I did was move across post, which I think was also made it hard. Yeah. Because I just left over there. Yeah, that one over here. But, you know, most guys went, what's called what assignment, and you go away to some other installation or somewhere, but because I was a mortar guy, they sent me to their ID. Okay. I've worked with a lot of other soft units, being a seal, and then some of my time at the agency, I, for some reason, I never, ever got to work with the Rangers. So I'm interested in the culture, because I don't know about it. When you get in there, in a lot of soft units, the entire team's involved in mission planning

and putting together target packages and all that kind of stuff. And everybody has their specific duties. And everybody is, I guess what I'm trying to say is all ideas are welcome to the table. Sure. You might get called a fool if you get a dumb ass fucking idea. But there's always a way to get your idea in there and it's encouraged. Is it like that in

the Ranger Regiment? It wasn't when I was there. Ranger Regiment back then was, they were the best train airborne infantrymen on the planet. So they shot more, they jumped more, they fast-rope, they did some things that conventional forces didn't do, but they were still run like an infantry rifle platoon. Okay. So you had four squads, you had two team leaders in each squad, team leaders in the squad leaders, two in the sergeant, two in the platoon leader, first sergeant company commander, like they were led like a standard rifle company.

Very rank structure. Very rank structure, absolutely. Yeah, you had to earn your keep at the lower levels before you were moved up the ranks and were a non-commissioned officer and in charge of people. But yeah, it was very much led like traditional, any rifle, platoon anywhere in the army.

Okay. Yeah, nowadays, they do a lot more than they ever used to. I would imagine it's still run relatively the same though, because regardless of the amount of training that you've received, you're still an 18 year old kid, you're still a 19 year old kid, and lack the combat and personal experience to make appropriate decisions.

So imagine they still run it mostly the same, even though they do a lot more things. Like CQB wasn't really a part of a lot of what Regimen did when I first got there. You know, now those guys are just, they're an extension of JSOC and hit targets on their own. And yeah, they're fully capable of doing all those things. Yeah, it seems like,

I mean, everybody's done a lot of growing after 20 years of war. From the outside looking at and to all these different units and interviewing guys, to me, it appears that the Ranger Regiment is the one that is probably growing the most professionally. And I guess coming from where they were, pre-9-11, to where they are now, seems to me they've done the most changing,

is a whole unit. But would you agree with that? Yeah, I mean, everybody's involved. I think what the global war on terror, G-Wat, what G-Wat did was it got a lot of people doing basically direct action missions where that necessarily wasn't their previous profile. You know, as an example, you had, you know, ODAs, you had Green Berets out there who's specialty is unconventional warfare and buy through and with stuff, using

and training and indigenous forces to achieve an objective amongst a bunch of other things. But they were doing DA, they were doing raids and assaults and maybe with some indig at some point, but they were also doing a unit laterally. That happened because of GWI and so many missions and op-10, but all that stuff. And I think it happened across the soft community Yeah, and I think that happened to the regiment as well I think they got pulled in and utilized and a lot more circumstances They necessarily weren't built for you know they were built for airfield seizures

They were built for jumping in to you know like just causing Panama or 83 in Grenada They were built to jump in Season airfield eliminate the threat on that airfield and establish an airhead to bring on follow-on forces to do other things. Or quick reaction stuff, or whatever, what they morphed into was an independent assault force that had a capability equivalent to most mesh operations units. So, I personally don't think it was the correct thing, but I think it's just what happened because we were so busy. Yeah. So they definitely grew and expanded, in my opinion. I mean, when we later on in my career, you know, I watched how we utilize the range of regiment go from utilizing them in support of us

to utilizing them as another action arm so that we could do more things at a time. And there's pros and cons to that. You expand your workforce and your ability to hit more targets at a time and do more on the battlefield. But I think you lose a little something. I think there's some things that are brought to the table with season special operators that you know you don't necessarily get with an 18 or 19 year old kid. I mean it's probably and I don't know because I don't have the experience but it's probably similar in the seal community. You know you have the seal community which is guys from 18 or 19 to the end of their career but then you have

seal team six which is you know more season seals that have been there done that and learn from those experiences. And I'm sure there's some huge differences between two. Absolutely. Did you, what kind of stuff were you doing after you got through the training pipeline at the regiment? They had a pretty good, they had a cycle.

So you'd have stretches, and this is my recollection, but, you know, we'd have cycles where we were doing a lot of shooting and a lot of range time, and then we would do like, we would do what they called fixed wing and rotary wing bilats. So fixed wing was like, you do a lot of jump in an airfield seizures,

for a stretch and different planes and whatever, and then you do rotary wing bilats, where you do a lot of, you know, in fills with helos and fast-rope training and all that. You like, you sort of had a cyclical thing. And then you had your like, you're like ready-force cycle where you were the on-call battalion in the event that, you know,

somebody hits 911 for the United States Army. You had to be ready to go anywhere. And I don't know what it is like 18 hours or less or something. But so was a typical training cycle of preparation and training, range time, the various bilats, mount training where you're doing urban stuff, patrolling training, MTT. So little courses like, you know, basic demolition or whatever those other skills were. And then you had your like pre-deployment phase later on if you were deploying back then,

it was just your prep for if something happened face. And then you had your down phase where you weren't on a lurch cycle, and they would do block leave and things like that. But yeah, I think the biggest difference for me between the regiment and when I went out to the regular army was in the regular army, there'd be whole days where you did nothing. Like, dudes would just be sitting in their barracks rooms like doing correspondence courses or hide now, basically.

And it was kind of accepted. Looking back years later, I know that like budgets and things have a lot to do with that. Like, conventionally, it's just don't get millions and millions of dollars to buy ammunition and rounds to be out on the range and training. Whereas, you know, people that fall into the special operations bubble did. So it subsequently increases proficiency in all those things. But yeah, there were a lot of time where you're just doing nothing.

And that was a shock. Where? Did you deploy with the regiment? I, well, no, not to combat to combat, because it was peacetime. I did a deployment per se with them. We went to Germany. We jumped in and did a 40 mile movement to an objective. A 40 mile movement?

A 40 mile movement through Germany. And I wanna say, on foot, I wanna say, Stanley McChrystal, General McChrystal was in the regimen. He might have been third-range battalion commander at the time, and I think Colonel Luzzinski, maybe, was the 75th, but regardless, they wanted to prove that the regimen had the capability to jump in behind enemy lines

and move an excessive distance like that and then still have effects on target. So we did, we did a 40 mile infill over a couple of days and I was a mortar guy, so I had like a base plate and I had a 120 pound Rucksack and skinny little 135 gone kid or whatever I was back then. But it was awesome, like it sucked, but it was neat to do something like that and go.

We just walked 40 miles and then hit a target. How long did that take? I think it took us like two and a half days. Yeah, maybe three. That was a long time ago. Yeah. But that was really neat. And then we did some stuff with the Germans,

we did some cross-training. You know, got our German shoots sne sneer, marksmanship badge, did a farm wing jump and some other things. That was literally my first year in the army. I thought all that was just normal. That was going on all over the place, and it definitely was not. How did you wind up in the conventional army? I got a DUI.

That was it. That was it? Yeah, I got a DUI and they sent me to Third Amateur Division. And yes, the next thing you know, I'm a mechanized infantryman instead of jumping out of planes, riding around a tank. Holy shit, how did that feel when you got the word, hey, you're done here. It's over. Pretty awful.

When it happened, my section started started my mortar section starting at the time So the the e6 that was in charge of the mortar section He got a DUI the same night And so they kind of were making an example out of us But it didn't happen right away like that stuff happened and we were I guess punished for a lack of better term. We both got a general letter of a reprimand that stays with you for your whole career Which was terrifying to me as a young private But we didn't leave we actually did the Germany thing after we got in trouble

Because they wanted like a full workforce. They wanted all the bodies to go do this exercise in Germany and spend this time over there So I actually had good things happen in the regiment to where there was a point where I was like maybe maybe I'm not leaving Maybe they just forgot about it, but no that no the time came and I got orders when we got home from Germany and I left Damn, but yeah third ID third ID was a different experience. It's some really good leaders there Some funny leaders and then some real pieces of shit that were in the organization and I think what that taught me was in Every organization in the military is probably true in the organization. And I think what that taught me was in every organization in the military, and it's probably true in the Navy, too, there's turns in every punch bowl. It's just depending on what level you're at, there's less.

Like, you know, there's good and bad in every organization. It's just, it's the percentages. And so, had some great folks, some great leaderships, and people that changed my career, and a battalion commander in third-inch division, infantry division that was probably the difference between me getting out of the army after four years, feeling defeated like I got in trouble and I wouldn't be able to overcome it to me reenlisting and staying in the army and continuing what ended up being a 20-year career.

Damn. What kind of stuff are you doing at third ID, other than sitting on the barracks? Again, so there's gonna be a recurring theme here. All right. Like I think, I think throughout the course of my life, with all the good and all the bad that's happened to me, I've just had good timing. Like I've been certain places at certain times

where I was just fortunate to get to experience whatever it was. And so third idea, at first I was like this is awful. Like I'm in them. I've down at the motor pool, change in oil and break and track on a tank on Mondays. Like that's my Monday every Monday. But what ended up happening was so post first golf war. Remember we did the, we controlled all the airspace over Iraq and we patrolled the airspace. Well, somewhere in that phase was called Operation Desert Thunder, which is Saddam was being goofy again. So we shut down the airspace again, and then we launched all of these exercises

in the desert of Kuwait to show a show of force and remind him, like, we'll come beat you down again if you act fool. So we ended up deploying, like an entire mechanized brigade ended up deploying, I think they called it like operation and intrinsic action on our side, but it was the overarching thing was called Operation Desert Thunder.

We got an expeditionary medal for that. Even though it was like peacetime and we weren't at war with anybody, we forward deployed to Kuwait right on the border of Iraq. But what it turned into was six months of living in the desert, you know, building, I think they called them caboos or something, but it was basically a dirt-burmed giant compound. We erected all the tents, we filled all the sandbags, basically cradle to grave

from nothing but flat desert to an entire fob for the better term, forward operating base, and then conducted maneuvers out of there. And what we had was, so all of the war stock from the first Gulf War was still in Kuwait. So we had ammunition and artillery rounds and mortar rounds for days. So for this six month period, we did life-ire stuff like literally like four and five times a week.

I shot more rounds in that six months than probably most guys that spent an entire career in an infantry mortar unit ever shot. And it was because it was this big demonstration of force. So we got really good at what we did. So even with the studs and the duds and the platoon that I was in, we turned into a really effective cohesive unit

because we had nothing to do but train. We were sitting in the desert for deployed like we were prepping to go to Wardamaro. Yeah. And it turned out for me, like leadership-wise, it turned out to be a great experience, understanding what being deployed felt like and being away from your family.

And, you know, as a young guy, fill in sandbags and burn and shit, you know? All the uncomfortable stuff that goes with it. That did suck at the time, but when you look back on years later, you're like, man, I'm lucky, that happened. Like, very few people get an opportunity like that. Yeah. So, turn up, be really good, and then...

Came back from that. I'm sorry, did a lot of the guys look up to you because you came from the regiment? Yeah, I think that made it easier. I think the leadership, the NCOs, saw early that I had been exposed to good leaders and that I was hungry and motivated more so than a lot of the guys that they were used to. So they sort of took to me, the younger guys did have more respect for you because as far as they were concerned, you were an army ranger.

I didn't matter that you left. You had done that and they hadn't, so they definitely looked up to you. But I sort of aggressively pursued leadership roles when I was there. Once I figured out, I could, like that I could be the PT stud and push other guys to excel in physical fitness. I could lead and make guys go train and do the right thing. I saw that leadership like that. I saw that younger guys responded to it and I saw an opportunity to get myself back on track and I pursued it.

That's awesome. I wasn't expecting you to say that the leadership liked you because a lot of guys that come from a unit like that go to the conventional side and then there's There's some insecurities that come out in the leadership because you came from a soft unit. Well funny story. I've told this one other time So when I first got there my opportunity Sergeant and If he ever hears one of these things I hope hope to God, the man finds me on social media and reaches out to me because I love him to death this day.

And I think really highly of him. But he was a master of starting. So in a mortar platoon, it was real rank heavy. You had a E8 platoon sergeant, which was rare. You had two E7 section sergeants, and then a bunch of E6s, and E5s, and so on. And he was our platoon sergeant. And so I show up day one, sign into the unit in processing or whatever, and I finally get to my platoon.

And he brings me into his platoon office and he's sitting at the desk and he's just giant man. That's starting to be Donald P. Blackman. Huge, huge NFL lineman size, dude. You know, on the overweight side, NFL lineman size, dude. Right, and I say that lovingly. But he's like, have a seat and he's talking to me

and he said some cool things in the beginning. He's like, hey, I want you to, I don't want you to beat yourself up. Like you're a 19 year old kid, you made a mistake, you got spanked for it, learn your lesson, grow from it and move on. He's like, I'm not gonna carry that into this. I'm not gonna hold it over your head.

No one's gonna look down on you and I'm not gonna let them look down on you. Like, he said some really positive things. And then he paused and he said, I wanna ask you a few questions. And I said, okay. And he said, Ranger battalion. I was never in the Ranger battalion.

He's like, but, you know, I've seen him. And, you know, know what they've done in the past and learned a little about him. And I said, yes, Sardin. And he said, there's not a lot of black fellas in the range of regiment. And he was black. And I said, no Sardin, there's not. And I'm scared, right?

Like I'm in before we even started, even though he had said all these positive things, like he buttered me up to ask me something difficult. So I'm a little nervous and he said, not all that black fill is in the regiment, huh? And I said, no, sorry, there's not. He said, how many black guys do you think are in the range of regiment? How many black guys are in third-range of Italian?

I said four, just like that. And he jumped into seat and he went, you know there's only four? And me, I go, well, I mean, when you're in the dining facility starting, it's not that hard, like there's just not that many guys. I said, I think there's only four, and me, I go, well, I mean, when you're in the dining facility, starting, it's not that hard, like, there's just not that many guys. I said, I think there's like four.

And he goes, huh, and he leans forward to this chair. I mean, he leans over the desk to close the distance, and he says, why do you think that is? And I thought, and probably a split that second, my brain went, shit. If I say whatever, he's gonna know that I'm lying to him and I've now set the conditions for our relationship for the rest of my time here. If I tell him what I really think, he might punch me in the face or he might respect what

I have to say. And so I rolled the dice and I said, I'm just gonna tell him the truth or at least what I really think to be the truth. Remember I was a notion lifeguard and I said, honestly, starting I think it's because black guys have trouble passing the swim test. And he paused and then he busted out laugh and he said, you're goddamn right, I can't swim a lick.

Oh my shit. And we had a laugh and he said, you're goddamn right, I can't swim a lick. And we had a laugh and you know, and he said, right then and there, he said, you're all right, band-zant. I like you and I think you're going to do just fine. And so fast forward a while later in the platoon. And one night in Ku, like we had a long conversation about it. He's like, yeah, man, he's like, they come from different places. He's like, but a lot of black guys that end up in the service, they grew up in the inner city

or they grew up someplace where they didn't have pools, they didn't have access, they didn't swim. You know, that's so important. You can call it a stereotype. You know, nowadays it's like people will come after you if you said something like that. There was no, there was nothing racist or anything in any of that.

It was matter of that. It was matter of fact, and it was true to the regiment. And in a lot of units, and I think they came up with ways to combat that. Like yeah, you know what, we do have some people that grow up and don't swim. So let's afford them an opportunity to learn and to practice so they can be successful in some of those courses, and they're not limited by their background or experience prior service. So yeah, it was a funny moment that led to a much deeper relationship and a more honest

relationship between the two of us, and he was a really good leader. Like he was a smart guy, he pushed us a weird in the desert. He genuinely cared about the army and he cared about me, and I knew that. And same with my battalion commander that basically talked me into staying in the service, those guys took a personal interest in me as a human being, and it stuck with me forever. As a leader, and even now, like.

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Not bluebell. Bluebell takes pride in providing our customers with full half gallons and full points of our delicious ice cream. We would never want to deny any one of all the rich and creamy goodness found in every carton. Blue bell wouldn't have it any other way. You can have an impact on a single individual's life, sometimes just with the words that you use. Yeah.

And showing them that you care or taking the time to listen to their story or to share yours can make a difference in their life for, you know, fucking 10, 20 years to come. And those are just a couple examples of people that had an impact on me, that early, after a mistake, that changed the course of what I did.

That's awesome. How long did you wind up spending at the third ID? About two and a half years probably. I was coming up on, you know, you can reenlist a year out, 12 months out from when your time to get out of the service date was. And like I said, I had that conversation with the Italian commander at the time. I was really stressed about my letter of reprimand, my punishment hurting me and like slowing me down.

And he was just very reassuring. Currently it was his name. That's another one that I wish would track me down if he ever heard something that I said on social media because I'd love to hear how he's doing and tell him like, sir, you changed my life. But he convinced me to reinlist. We had a joke and I said, I don't really wanna stay here, sir. As much as the good of time as I had, He convinced me to green list.

We had a joke and I said, I don't really wanna stay here, sir. As much as a good a time as I had, I wanted to get back to jumping out of plane to be in a pair of trooper at least and start working my way back towards special operations. And the best place I thought to do that was Fort Bragg. So he agreed and he helped me out. And I ended up re-enlisting to, to go to the 82nd for Bragg.

And I thought, all right, there's a one step back closer. I'm gonna go back to jumping out of planes, being an infantryman in an airborne unit, and a mid-bragg, which is like kind of the hub and the best place to be if you're gonna continue to go down that path. Yeah, so you were like a no-bull shit, very direct to the point, no matter what the consequences are from a very young age because there's two tough questions that you got and you answered them honestly that takes a lot of people

Yeah, probably years to get to that point probably too a fault Yeah, I mean I was a humor guy too like I think I've always Yeah, I mean, I was a humor guy too. Like, I think I've always tried to find funny in the situation, so in periods of high stress, I tend to resort to something humorous. Like, I didn't say that, but there was a bit of my response to match our black man that I hoped he would laugh. Yeah.

Like, I rolled the dice. Yeah. And that was true. That was true to the time. And probably, you know, like I rolled the dice. Yeah, but and I and that was true. That was true to the time and probably, you know, still some issues today. But they've just changed a lot of things and made it better for people. But but yeah, I think I was trying to get him

to laugh a little bit too. So yeah, speak your mind. Hope for the best. Yeah. Doesn't always work out like that. It does. But for very similar in that aspect. But so you moved over to the 82nd Airborne.

Yeah, moved over to the 82nd. Again, I was a mortar guy. I immediately took a mortar section in a line company. I was in the F company, second three, two, five. The white falcons. Our sister battalion was the blue falcons. I was just glad I wasn't. Ah. We're up.

Who does that? Yeah. Real quick. Was there no option to go back to the regiment? I didn't know. That was not a question I ever asked. Somebody asked me that last year. And I'm like, I don't know.

I don't know if I could have gone back or not. In my mind, because when you go through the Rainier and Nock Grenation Program and all that stuff, you get RFS, whatever that stands, I don't even remember. But if you get booted, my opinion was that you could never come back. So I don't know the answer to that question. I don't know if you could or you couldn't, but it never crossed my mind.

It was like, I got to do this, it was great. I fucked it up. Now I'm on the path back, so what's the next step for me? So, yeah, so in the 82nd, I was, enjoyed what I was doing, I enjoyed being back and jumping out of planes, but I needed to figure out how to get back on the path to be a special operator. Yeah, so Alfa County, second three, two, five,

the White Falcons. I was a Mortar sergeant. So I had my own guys, I had my own mortar team, two teams, I ran their training, I, you know, did their counseling. I was leading troops. And I was also fortunate in that as the mortar section sergeant, like, I didn't have a platoon or a platoon sergeant. So I was basically a platoon leader and a platoon sergeant at the same time. So I had three rifle platoons and the mortar section. So I would be in meetings, the platoon sergeant, the NCO, noncommissioned officer related meetings, but then I would also have to go to the officer meetings with the company commander, the first sergeant, and all the lieutenants that were in the platoons.

So it was a really good experience for me seeing, you know, non-commissioned officer leadership versus officer leadership. And I kind of ended up in a point where I was getting to know and sort of shopper owning a lot of the new lieutenants that would come in. You know, their Ptoons aren't was an E7. He was this big intimidating guy that they were scared to ask questions to. You know, I was an E5 promotable, you know-level, non-commissioned officer, and because I was approachable and joked and laughed and stuff, I think it made it easier for them to talk to me and ask me questions.

So I ended up sort of in a role where I had a good relationship with new lieutenants that would come in and kind of helped them along the way. That turned into a meeting of young of young Lieutenant name Paul Karen. Paul and I became friends very quickly. He was a West pointer. Just a good dude, just like a, just wanted to be a good leader.

Like wanted to train guys, wanted to make soldiers better at what they did so that they can win the fight and survive on a battlefield. And I think I saw that right away. Very much a boy scout, a little dorky, but not in a bad way, more like an eagle scout kind of way. And I kind of appreciated it. Didn't know anything about his family, but ended up finding out later on that his dad

was the Delphore Star major, was Doug Karen. And so Paul, before I knew that, had had a lot of conversations with me about going SF versus other things. He asked me why I wanted to do it. And I said at this point, I knew enough in the service, and now I'm back at Bragg. I knew I wanted to end up if I was capable as a Delta operator.

But I assumed that I had to go be a Green Beret or an Army Ranger, which I had already messed that up. I had to go be a Green Beret to get there. And he said, why would you do that? And I said, what do you mean? I said, it's a stepping stone. Like, I'm a young dude. I can't just go straight to being a Delta operator.

They're not gonna take me. I have no comment experience. I'm young, blah, blah, blah. And he said, well, yeah, that's not how it works. Like, you can submit to be asked to attend selection for that side of the house. And you don't have to be a grimeber, right? He's like, you know, the minimum requirements are this. They do a briefing at this time.

And I didn't even put together how this guy knew all this. Like, this is before I knew his old man was the Units Armader. He'd basically grown up as a kid with his dad in that organization. No, shut. So he's withholding all this. Yeah, I don't think he was withholding. I think at a certain point, I think he thought he had told

me or I knew. Okay. But he always used to say his dad was a comment engineer. His dad was a 12 bravo. And when I would ask him, he would say, yeah, he's a Sergeant Major. That's all he would say. He never said, he's the Delta Force Sergeant Major.

Right? So one day we were coming back from training, me and Paul, we were setting up some training for the Patoon. I had moved, there's a point in there where he left the line company and he went to the reconnaissance Patoon, to the Scalpatoon, and he asked me to come with him when he did it. And I was like, I'm an 11 Charlie, like I'm not an 11 Bravo regular infantryman,

and those were regular infantrymen, billets. Matter of fact, they're Ranger-qualified infantrymen, billets. And he was like, why don't you come with me? And I was like, I don't, how do I do that? And he was like, it's easy, you do a 4187, like a stage of growing guy. Do a 4187 to the commander requesting an MOS change from 11 Charlie to 11 Bravo. And he goes as a commander signs off on him. We go to retention. They do some paperwork. They'll cut your orders

for the MOS change and then we'll move you over to the scalpel tune. You can take a team. And I was like, but I'm a water guy. And he was like, Chris, you know more about Smollean attacks. And you do a better job like leading your squad than 99% of the rifle squad leaders that we have in this company. He's like, I'd love to have you over there. And so I did it. I reclassed. I was a E5 promotable because the points were maxed out back then. When I reclassed to 11 Bravo, the points were way down here

because there's a lot of them. So I immediately promoted to E6 too. So now I'm a staff sergeant in the scalpel tune. Yeah, doing that with him as my boss, the tune sergeant and him is the lieutenant. But yeah, so we were out doing some training, setting up some training, and again, Paul and I got to be pretty good friends.

And we were coming back and he said, can we stop off and see my dad? And I was like, yeah. Again, I thought his dad was a combat engineer because he was a 12-bravo, because that was his MOS. And so we stopped at the unit compound and I was like, what are you doing, dude? And he's like,

I'm going to see my man here. And I'm like, what are you talking about? So at this point, I had had a selection date. Like I- Oh, you already had a selection. I had submitted my date. I had... Well, you already had a selection. I had submitted my packet. They had accepted it and asked me to attend selection. And because, again, Paul had talked me out of going the Green Barra route and convinced me

to give it a shot. If it didn't work out, he's like, then you can go do that. Nothing against the differences. It just made sense to me, like, true for the stars. And so, yes, we went in the compound. I ended up meeting the units, our major and scared to death out of my mind. And Doug didn't say anything to,

I think he said, like Paul, I think he said, Chris, Paul tells me you have a selection date. And I just, Roger that sort of major, you know what I'm saying? Yeah! And all he went was, good luck. Not like encouraging, not like, good luck.

Like good luck kid, you're not gonna make it through this. But yeah, and then we got out of there. And I didn't go into selection twice, but yeah, I went from that 82nd Reconnaissance Platoon to selection. I failed the first time, I got pulled the day before the last day, Fair to me the time standard as they say. But they asked me to come back. And I wanted to do it in the same season. So I waited a full year. I went back the next year.

And then was successful that second time. Why did you want to do it in the same season? The weather was pretty interesting when I was there. And I wanted the conditions to be as close to the same as they could. So the fall leaves and snow occasionally and whatever. I wanted to be exactly the same, and I was afraid the terrain would look a lot different in the winter. And you cover so much ground, I wanted every aspect in my favor. Like I was like, I have to be even faster than I was, and I felt like I crushed it the

first time. Like I trained my butt off. Like I really felt like I moved faster the first time. Like I trained my butt off, like I really felt like I, I really feel like I moved faster the first time I did it than the second. Really? But the second time I think I just made smarter choices. So consequently, they overall made me actually,

made me faster and better. But. Do you think they send guys, do you think they, however you wanna call it, reject guys on purpose to see if they'll come back? Just how bad they want to. I do. You personally. Yeah. I mean, in the, in the unit, there's only a couple of physicians where you are privy to the information of the how, what, one, where, and why as it is to selection. And if you don't feel one of those billets at any point in your career

in the organization, you'll never know what those are. So there's, you know, 95% of the guys that have ever been an operator there don't know what the criteria is, don't know what the time standards are, don't know what any of that info is. So I personally think, yes. Like I felt like, right wrong or indifferent, I felt like they went, this is a 23 year old kid. Like, never been a war. You know, whatever his background was. He had a DUI, his young private. Let's just test him and see if he'll do it all again.

And so I did. And luckily, you know, thankfully it worked out. Did it crush you the first time when you didn't make it in? I don't think it crushed me. I mean, I was exhausted. I mean, I knew I gave it everything that I had. I think there was a little bit of comfort in that and that you're just not good enough.

Like, so when I did my exit interview and they said, basically, you know, they read you the party line, you feel to me, it's time standard, but then they sort of built me back up and they said, hey, you knew did a really good job for like a young, inexperienced guy, like you did a really good job, and we would really like you to come back and try again because we think you potentially could have a future here.

And that was enough, like that was, so even though you failed, it was like like they pushed you out the door with momentum. That's good. To kind of come back and I think that was really important. Were you ever on that board? I was not. No. And the guy that actually did my,

if I remember correctly, the guy that did my exit interview was Tom Greer, who passed away a number of years ago. Tom was an officer in the unit and got out and wrote a couple books on a depend name Don't Fury. If you remember any of those, he died of cancer a few years ago. But yeah, like I can remember the words. Like yeah, you did a good job. And we think you could make it,

but we wanna see you come back and do it again. Yeah. So, following your career, you showed up to the regiment in 95, six, 96, spent a year there. Yep, went to third ID, then went to 82nd. We've gotta be getting close to 2001. Yeah, real close.

So the first year I went to selection was 2000 and failed. That was fall of 2000. And then so 2001 happens fast forward that summer in August. So I knew I had a return selection date. And selection is at the end of September in October. They run it twice a year, fall and spring. Holy shit.

So it's August, two things happened. In August of 2001, I sprained my ankle, playing basketball, a month and a half out from selection. And I was like, you gotta be kidding. I mean, bad, like high ankle sprain, you know, like where you would have been better off if you broke it kind of thing. So that was obstacle one.

Opsicle two was I got orders from the army sending me to the drill instructor course to be a drill sergeant down at Fort Benning. Oh shit. So I was like on the ankle thing happened and then that happened and I was like, I am not the guy. Like you said, I've always been pretty open

and honest and she's like, I'm not the guy that you want out there shaping young minds. I'm just not. I'm sure I would have been fine in taking an on headed happen, but yeah, I was on orders to be a drill instructor. So I was rehabbing the ankle as best I could. I was taping the crap out of it,

you know, like, you know, you see your ankles taped in football and stuff. And I called the recruiter, and I said, Hey, look, man, I just got orders to be a drill sergeant. Like I heard these are like, like if you get the old rumor was, if you got orders to be a recruiter or a drill sergeant, there was no way you were getting out of it. Like that was your path. And for the next three years, that's what you were going to do. And so I'm terrified. And I called the unit recruiter and he was like, yeah, no big deal.

Don't worry about it. And I was like, what? And I go, but I'm supposed to report like before I go to selection. And he was like, yeah, don't worry about it. And I'm like, so you just want me to not report. And he was like, yeah, whatever. And I'm like, all right. Well, this guy told me I don't have to do anything to just ignore it. And so whatever happened behind the scenes, that time came and went, 9-11 happened.

And I was out in the field training with the, with the recomptoon with the scouts. And then not, not two weeks after 9-11, I left and went to West Virginia for selection. Damn. Did that, do you think that event gave you extra motivation that maybe helped you get through selection the second time? I think you did it everybody.

Yeah, I think the realization was, if I get through this and then get through the operator training course, like I'm going to war from my country, like absolutely no doubt. Like, and I think the wanting to be like that force that you knew was going to take the fight to the people that were responsible for this. I think that was huge. So it wasn't discussed, like note,

I don't think we ever talked about it. And most guys there didn't talk a lot. Like it was a very serious and somber, like selection class, you're scared to talk to each other anyway, but there were a handful guys just like me that had done it the year prior, so they were faces that I knew. And some of them interesting ones, you know, like I went to selection with Alan Chumate,

who was Walt Chumate's son, who was one of the early on founders and and Sergeant Majors of the Delta Force. And he was a repeat with me. So like a few of us knew each other. But even then, I don't think we talked about 9-11 at all. It was just, it was about, you know, the great breakfast that we just had or how bad we thought today was gonna suck.

Was the pulse or the tone of selection from a cadre side any different? Not a bit. Exactly the same. That's the most professionally run course I have ever attended. No, shit. Yeah, from, in the, from the classes that they give you to make sure everyone has been provided with the same amount of information and you're all at the same level. So nobody has an excuse as to why they weren't successful from an education standpoint.

It's the most professionally run course I've ever been part of. And they maintain that to this day. I guarantee it. I know it's apples and oranges, but would you say it's more professional than OTC itself? Different. The intent at selection is to maintain separation between the students and the cadre. Okay.

OTC is faced. It's a phased approach. So in the beginning, it's very much like that. But then as you progress, eventually you get to a point where it's, how, you can call me Bob or Joe or whatever. Okay. You know what I mean? Like I do. They, they, uh, OTC is more about integrating you into unit mindset and the way the unit really functions. So by the time you get to the end, it's a little more like what it's going to feel like in squadron than when you first started.

Okay. If that makes sense. It does. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about OTC and what that training pipeline look like. Cool. I wanna take a minute to tell you about

Vigilance Elite Patreon. Patreon support is what makes this show possible, and gives me the ability to bring these one-of-a-kind stories to the public. Go to patreon.com, slash Vigilance Elite, and support the Sean Ryan show today. All right, Chris, we're back from the break. You just wrapped up selection, you got in,

you're gonna go to OTC. What did they tell you when you made it in selection? Well, you finished the stress phase, the physical portion of selection, and then you have the board. The board process is what it is. I'm not going to get into it because I think that mental aspect is part of the process. But when I finished a guy that I looked up to for years after this happened and got to know a little

bit better, but he said after they told me they were, I think their words were, we're gonna take a chance on you. Oh! We're gonna take a flyer here and roll the dice and see how it works out. But congratulations. You've been accepted and you're gonna attend our party training course. And I don't think I reacted.

Like I think I was just stone faced. There were some funny moments in the board and the questions that they asked, and I put my mouth a couple of times as a young guy as you would expect. And the guy that sort of walked me out afterwards, he sort of like put his arm around me and he said, it's cool, you can smile now.

And it was a cool moment. Like, and I think I didn't even realize how like in shock I was. And then that lasted for a brief few seconds, and then I realized I still had a long road ahead of me and that was the operating training course. Yeah. Did you, any of the guys that you knew from before,

did they make it with you? Oh, really? Only one. Good question. Yes. One of them did. Yeah, yeah, a guy went through the course of me. That guy, he's kind of a, he's a picture of resiliency, but a number of years later in the unit, he ended up getting blown up by an ID and lost half of his face, really, and went through

a number of years of reconstruction surgery, but yeah, he's involved in a lot of veteran issues this day and held in there and kept on his thing. But yeah, so one of the guys, yes. Amazing. Well, let's move into OTC then. Sure. Well, actually, did you go back to your unit first or are you there now? I did, but it's really quick. Okay. Like you go back and basically I'll process and then you move over to the compound.

When you're a fall selection and assessment graduate, I guess for lack of a better term, there's a lot of admin things and some classes that happen early on and then some basic rifle marksmanship stuff that happens And then you get a little bit of a break for Christmas and then you come back on heavy, but But yeah, it's really quick. I think I had less than two weeks back at the you know, I think 11 days later I reported to the company. Oh, well Interesting. Yeah, it was an interesting time like there's 9- and happened. And I think we were chomping at the bit. Like, let's go. Let's get this on, which I think was a good thing.

I think it focused us a little more. You know, I was terrified. I got an excited and everything we did, it didn't matter what it was. I was like, yes, because I was this like young, hungry kid. So glad to be so grateful to be where I was that I think I was just sort of in awe every day and took it all in like a sponge.

That's awesome. I mean, you'd really, the timing, the way you positioned yourself right after, you know, leading up to and right after 9-11, I mean, the timing is for what you wanted to do, I mean, you're really, just kind of time that better I mean, you're really just kind of time that better. Yeah, that's some universe shit, like we were saying.

Yeah. And like I said, the theme continues. Like my timing with things sort of continues throughout my career, both good and bad, but they all led to where I am today. So, I'm grateful for all of it. Well, let's move into training. Let's day one.

What is day one? Oh, man. I'll preface this with I have giant holes in my memory from various injuries and things. So I'll do my best. But yeah, early on, it was, like I said, it was some classes. And then I think the thing that I was most impressed or taken aback by was how they really started from zero. So you

had guys that had been green berets for a bunch of years. You had guys that been army ranges for a bunch of years. I think me, I think there were three guys in my operator training course class that were for lack of a better term from the conventional army. One of them turned out to be one of my really good friends, Mike McNulty, another guy that didn't make it through the course, but they really went back to the basics. Literal, basic rifle, and martialmanship is where we started out. So on a known distance range, laying on the ground, rotating between your guy on the line, taking slow-in fire shots and working on the fundamentals of martialmanship to the guy

down in the tunnel, lifting the target, putting the target, put in the pasties on it, lower in the target. They really went back to square one and started with a basics and went through a block of instruction like you would never shot a firearm for. And it was professional, it was organized, and I felt like I was actually being taught, you know, like basic training, you kind of go through,

there's a little bit of heredness to it, where they're just trying to check some blocks and get you to a bare minimum level. This was actual focused instruction, where I felt like the instructors were over your shoulders, they were asking questions, and they were constantly feeding you information and experience that was, you know, the intent was to train you professionally to be an operator. Athletic Brewing Company doesn't craft ordinary non-alcoholic beer. Athletic Brewing crafts award-winning, non-alcoholic beers that are fit for all times. Brews born from our founders crazy idea.

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Is it, uh, is it, do they encourage you in that environment? Or is it a beat down? Do they use humiliation? No, it or is it a beat down? Do they use humiliation? No, it's definitely not a beat down. There is no not in selection or in the operative training courses. Is there an element of hazing or intimidation or any of that stuff? No, shit, nothing. I think the philosophy is, at that, at that point, like you have,

you have been asked with very little information to put your, push yourself past your limits and do the best that you possibly can. And I think the idea is to just move past that and focus on the skills and the fundamentals. So while it is more rigid in the beginning, um, mainly because you're afraid as the candidate going through the course, but no. So you do physical events, you do PT events, and there are things that are clearly designed to make you suck and push yourself. I think one of the earliest ones I remember was the selection, or the OTC,

Sergeant Major's time is guy named John Hale, who unfortunately took his life a number of years ago, one of many that I'm sure you and I both know, but, um, lumpy was his nickname, I think, from Somalia, but he took us on a P mask run, where we had like, belt-fed weapons and protective masks on and run into the sand and the, you know, backwoods in North Carolina, they're there outside the compound and that was definitely a

Suck event like we're just gonna go punish you and see if these guys still got them enough to keep pushing themselves every single day But for the most part it was focused on Starting at zero and then continuing to advance your skills and education to get you to the level where they needed to be would you Describe it as a gentleman's course? Gentlemen's course. There's no buffoonery, there's no pazing, there's no none of that. It's very, it sounds very black and white. Yeah, yes, with the exception of the criticality

that's placed on you on a daily basis, like you are in a learning environment, but it's very clear that if you make a mistake, you do X and they explain to you, this is what you did, this is what you did wrong, this is how you need to do it different or whatever that ended up being, that if you don't learn from that experience and you don't implement the corrective action that was taken, you're not going to stay here. So, what I call it a gentleman's course, no. I would say it's very professionally run. But the level of detail and scrutiny is so high that that comes with its own pressure where all that stuff isn't necessary. Okay.

And you know, like, and yeah, when as you progress on and you get into CQB and you're doing single-man rune menchery, two-man and you're progressively working up as you learn the fundamentals, yeah, you've got the guys on the catwalk above you. And I think every guy going through the course ends up with a nemesis.

I don't know if they work it on amongst themselves or what, I was never an instructor, but it's like one guy goes, yeah, that's my guy. And he might, we had one, I had one in particular. We called him the AC130 gunship because he would just hover on the Catwalk and shoot 105 rounds at me. No matter what I did, I could do no right. Like, Vandesanne, what are you doing?

Why did you do this? What, just constant. So, yeah, the questions were there, but they were justified. It wasn't like they were just picking shit out, like you're getting a lot of army courses where you just know they're messing with you to mess with you. Yeah. It was, it was legitimate criticism, so you had to take it, learn from it, and try to not do it the next time. What's the retention? In the course? Yeah.

Good question. I mean, I think we started with, I think we started with 15, I think we finished with 11 or 12. Okay. We only lost a few guys. We lost a couple of guys going through the direct support portion. We had an accident, we had a guy going through the operator training courses and operator, Blue is hand off in the course, which was kind of an interesting moment.

This is down the road in the course, but we're in full blown team CQB at this point. It would be like one team would go and it was exterior breach and then move through whatever the house was or the facility was You come out, you know do a hot wash the events and just took place walk back through the house and go through each room And then it would be next team up while he was outside and he was prepping his charge He was gonna be the breacher for that iteration and we were using the old Navy West device that dual fired firing device so He had it on the underside of the charge. He had screwed the no now into the West firing device. And he was going through his pre-combat checks and he test fired the West device, but he had

hooked it up. And so when he did it, he had the caps and the West device in his hand and the caps blue, basically the majority of his hand off. And it was just a mistake. I mean, it was what the course is designed to draw out is people that aren't capable of dealing with things coming at them from all directions and being able to be clear and concise and do the basics correct to the highest level. And yeah, Chuck Blue was hand off, and we thought it was a hat and round, we thought a guy at 80 with a shotgun or something, because it was like a muffled pop. Like, you know, it wasn't super loud

because it was just two blasting caps detonating. Damn, but he did the hot potato, and the menix came over, treated him, they put him in a truck, drove him off, and the instructor that was running CQB that day, basically turned to us right after the truck drove away and said next team up. Damn. And like I've told that story for years because it imprinted on me.

It was like okay, yup accidents happen. We need to talk about what just happened and why, you know, a hot wash and AAR, but our job is to train and prepare for combat and that's our focus So we're going back to it and we did right then and there. I wasn't like they halted training You know if that happened in the conventional army the day is over. Yeah, like the range is shut down Like nothing is going on after that. There's an investigation like no we went within minutes We went right back to the next team up, explosive breach, external injury, CQB through the house. Shit. For those listening,

that don't understand that. So when he's saying that when Chris is saying that the hand got blown off by a blasting cap, a blasting cap is basically about the size of a big pen, yeah, about half the size of a bit pen. You put it into a charge and that's what initiates, that's what initiates the bomb to the boom. The larger explosive, yeah.

So they say, I don't know how accurate this is because I never really fucked around with them to find out, but they say, at least in buds and seal-turning, they say that the blasting cap is very sensitive and maybe that proves the point. Yeah, but it doesn't take a lot to set them off. It's funny the things that happen, like that happened again when I was a baby for lack of a better term going through the course, but I breached for a really long time

when I actually got to the teams, I breached for almost three and a half years in combat, which you're not really supposed to do for that long. And that's a whole story. I'm sure we'll talk about later, but it made me very conscious of everything that I was doing and very methodical as a breacher. And I think it was important to me

being successful as a breacher later on. So, yeah, even from all the bad, always comes something good. And I think it made all of us better operators. Where do you think the hang, if you started with roughly 15, graduated with roughly panel 11, where do most guys, and then you spend a lot of time over there,

where do you think most guys get caught up in that, and OTC and that training pipeline? Uh, complex environment. I think when you have so many things coming at you, like CQB is the most, as you know, like it's the most complex of all combat-related environments. You've got stuff going on in different rooms.

You've got people coming from different angles. You know, the unit has always taught multiple entry CQB, so you've got, where are the good guys, where are the bad guys when you shoot at a target? You gotta know what's in front of, what's at and what's behind my target. You've got stuff overhead, you've got stuff in your ears, you've got flashbangs, you've got door charges. It's just so many things going on at one time that I think it's just too much for some guys.

And they might be able to get away with it for a little bit, but eventually it catches up to them. And I think white out is the right term, but whatever. It's basically just too much information for a guy to process and make sound decisions. And I think that's the dominant thing that gets guys. Is that towards the end? I think we lost one kind of midway that just couldn't cut it. Yeah, most of them were toward the end. And then you get a little bored at the end of OTC again,

which is basically where your overall performance is assessed throughout the entire course. You can get dropped at any point along the way, but the board kinda looks at your overall performance and then takes input from all the instructors on your personality and demeanor and things like that and squatter and leadership makes decisions and they basically pick ones,

these intuases and try to figure out where the best fit for a guy is because like any organization kind of each squatter within that organization has a little bit different vibe, different personality. So I've always felt like they did a really good job with guys ending up where they're supposed to be. Yeah. At least I felt that way.

I felt like where I went was absolutely the right choice for me. You've talked, I've heard you talk about the competitive culture within the unit. And listening to your OTC experience and a couple other people's OTC experience, it doesn't, I could be totally off on this, but I don't hear a lot of competitiveness

happening in training. Am I correct on that? Mm. No, no. I mean, there is a level of camaraderie, I think, in the course, because you're all going through the same things, and you're in teams. So you definitely pull together with your teammates. Okay. Like Sean and I are on the same team in OTC. Like, I want Sean to be successful. Sean

being successful means I'm successful. So there's an inherent camaraderie and unity that comes within that team environment. Between the teams, definitely competitive. They want to be faster, they want to be better. In my particular case, way late in the operator training course, they busted it all up. So I was very used to and very comfortable with the other three guys on my team going through the course. And we were getting very good at what we were doing as we advanced in skill set. And I was the baby on the team.

I had three green berets, three season green berets were my OTC teammates for the first three quarters of it. And then late in the game, they blew up the teams and they switched us all up. And I ended up on a completely different team with completely different set of guys. And I don't know if they just did it to me, like they put me on another team, and it was the same three core guys and now me. And I had to integrate into that. Or, you know, like if it was certain guys

that they did that too, or if it was just in general, they just wanted to bust it up and change it up and see how guys reacted to it. But that took a minute. Because we had been so competitive with that other team, you know, because we're all alphas, you're like, I don't even like that, dude.

Like, he's too cocky, he's whatever. And one of them turned out to be a good friend of mine years later, but I thought that about one of the guys on the team that I went to. It's like he's a cocky shit. Like he was from Ranger Measure Me. He's just one of those people, and you meet a lot of those guys in that world that they're just good at everything.

And it kind of pisses you off. You know what I mean? Like, I'm struggling every day, just to be enough those guys in that world that they're just good at everything and it kind of pisses you off. You know what I mean? Like, I'm struggling every day, like just to be enough to keep going. Like, that's how I always felt. And then you look at some guys. And you get to know them years later and you know,

you find out that that's not true, that they were having those same mental struggles that you were. But from an outsider looking in, maybe they're a little older, maybe they've done a little more, maybe they had a little better, whatever. But you look at them and you're like, man, fuck that guy, he's just good at everything we do.

Meanwhile, I'm out here coming in on Saturday, coming in on Sunday, just trying to get by. And I think I felt like that joint in that team. So it took a minute, but it was a good experience to be pulled out of everything that you know and that comfort and show back into something else and still having to be effective and meet the standard. Interesting. Yeah, no idea. I was one or I've always heard that I worked with a lot of guys from Cagover when I was

contracting at the agency and I could feel the competitiveness from those guys and I think all of competitiveness from those guys. I think all of them are very ultra competitive, but and then get into the interviewing game, I just, I hadn't heard about the competition in OTC. So I was wondering where that kind of developed. Well, and then it's anything that's individual, super competitive, running the O course, either one, they post your times.

Okay. So you get to see, I'm number 14. Okay. Or I'm number one. Yeah. And they do the same thing with shooting competitions. You do a couple of evaluations along the way, and it's all to prepare you for the culminating stuff.

But you see your standing, the upper body round robin or the sequence of events that you do for physical fitness. It's changed. I don't even know what they do now. They do a much different shift, but then it was like 10 or 11 events, and they had a metric in each one of those, and then an overall encompassing score. Not only did they post how you did in each one of those individual metrics, but they posted your overall score, and they racked and stacked it as a class. And they did that periodically.

And so yeah, it was very competitive when it came to that kind of stuff. Did you guys do pure evaluations? Oh, I don't know. I honestly don't remember Sean. Okay. We did counseling once a month where you had a cadre member that was like your team's lead guy and he would counsel you on, you know, sustains, improves, whatever.

I don't think we did peers. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. And maybe I don't remember because I went through the SFQ course eventually too, later on, which is weird, but peers were a huge part of that. But I don't think we did. Okay. Yeah, not that I remember.

Interesting. I'm sure somebody who listens to this, could come in and go, yes, you do, or no, you don't. How do you not remember that? But that's whatever man. Yeah, that's one thing that always kept me in check. We did that in Buds, we did that in SKT, we did that at the team. And there's having an instructor evaluate,

that's heavy, having your fucking team evaluate. As we did it, I think it was in Buds, I think it was, I just went the top five guys and the bottom five guys and the reason why you placed them there. And I've been in the bottom and I've been in the top. Yeah. And it's, that's fucking humbling. Well, that's, like, I always just wanted to finish in the middle somewhere. Yeah. In one of those things. Like, I had some strengths. Like, I could run. I was one of the top two fastest guys in the class. So I had like me and another dude used to battle out

for second place. There was another guy who was a former Navy diver who was an ultra marathoner and held the bad water record for some years, nice here in the US. Like he's a fucking outstanding human being, but he, we were always one and two. So I had some strengths, like shooting wise, like I was a speed guy, I was good at any time,

I didn't have to like sit there and think about it. So I was never, never like a long gun or a long range shooter guy. So all of Fast Drills with RIFO, I did well at, all the fast stuff with Pistol, I did well at. You put me on a 25 meter range slow fire with a 45, good God. Ah! Ah! You know, and I got better, thank God,

people are good at teaching, but I just, whatever it was, man, I would get in my head and I'd be at the bottom of the pack and it was terrifying. Like, so I was always just shooting to kind of be middle of the road. I'm going through the course, yeah. I understand that. 45, or you guys use a 45? Yeah, we learned on 45 then.

No shit, yeah. I think they've switched to 9mm, but I'm not sure. 1911s? Yeah, 1911s. Yeah, he's cast me in 45s then. Yeah, I mean, great guns. Loved it to death. I'm glad that I learned on a full frame, 45,

because I think you understood the fundamentals of mechanics better, and it made you better to shoot and everything better at shooting everything else Because everything else frankly was just easier. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I wouldn't have thought of that good stuff Also Delta is the only unit that I know of especially in the tier one side of the house that I mean they take they recruit from everywhere They don't care as far as I know I'd heard you say that there are minimum requirements to try out

But it doesn't sound like the requirements are very high. You can come from Correct me from wrong anywhere in the military Navy Marine Corps Army Air Force Coast Guard. That's never happened in my knowledge, but maybe you can. But I always found that interesting because everywhere else, there's a pipeline to get into even with regular soft, you know, in most, most organizations. Did you find that? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

And why do you think they find that? I mean, what are your thoughts on that? And why do you think they do that? Why do I think they allow you to come from anywhere? Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, your individual drive, your personal traits, your attributes, the way your mind works, I think are really what make the difference between a competent and solid operator and a guy that can't do the job.

I think with the right mindset and the right individual, you can teach a monkey to shoot. It's just repetitive action, it's practice, it's over and over and over again, but a guy has to have the drive and the motivation. He has to have that personal thing inside him that makes him want to work that hard and be receptive to that training. So I think yes, from that perspective, I think two, I think you get pulling guys from all walks of life

for lack of a better term. I think gives you perspective from so many different angles, and they're all bringing something different to the table. And I had experiences with it later on in my career where I was working joint service stuff, where I was working with an Air Force guy or a seal or whatever. And there were things in their background and experience that they brought to the table that I had no clue about. And because of that, influencing that input, it made us collectively even better. So I think that was the unit philosophy early was, hey man, a guy might be a vehicle mechanic, but he has the aptitude and the drive and the intelligence to be trained to do all these other things.

Well now you end up with a dude at the other end of the pipeline that not only is an operator, but he can take apart and put back together an engine. Yeah. That might come in handy at some point. Absolutely. I mean, one of the things they always stress in the organization was you can go do anything you want training-wise.

If you can dream it up and you wanna go do it, you wanna learn it, whatever it is, all you have to do is explain how it's going to make you a better operator. And we will support it, fund it, and send you to that training. And in peacetime, guys did crazy stuff all the time, you know, things that you would never think of, going to a photography course, you know, a lockpick school, a learn how to fly. Whatever it was, if it made you a better operator and you could demonstrate that, the command

they supported it. So I think that was the philosophy going in, which you're pulling people from all different walks of life, background experience training, and that could be beneficial down the road. I don't know. I hope nobody's taken that as a hit on the unit. It's just always found it fascinating that, you know, it is arguably, subjectively, whatever you want to call it, one of the most capable unit in the fucking world.

And there is no standard. They don't care how much combat spirit she had. They don't care what unit you came from. They know what the fuck they're looking for. That's for damn sure. And if they did have those stipulations to get in, then look at all the gems that they have. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, there's a baseline, right? Like minimum time and service requirement, minimum rank, those are kind of the admin ones. Minimal, minimum physical fitness standards, you know, you have to do X on your physical evaluation, whatever that is, and then you have to do an 18-mile road march in a certain amount of time. Like there's a few precursors. Okay. IQ testing is another part of the equation where if you're just dumb, it's just not happening.

You have to score fairly well on your IQ testing and then psychological evaluation. And I don't know anything about it. It's fascinating. And I wish I could. Like I wish. I'm glad, I mean, I guess I'm glad that they don't share it because they're really good at what they do. Yeah. But I think that's like logical. Eval was as much a part of anything. It was understanding what makes you you and how you're wired. And who has the aptitude to receive all that function in that environment and come home and be normal. You know, I think 20 years of war have probably altered some of that.

Yeah. But I think the assessment on the front end and determining guys that have the aptitude or capability to be successful, I think they've got it down to a science. And I think that's why the success rates after guys get through selection and then get to OTC. I think that's why there's highs they are. Okay. Not to say that things don't happen after that. There's tons of guys that wash out

after they're assigned a squatter. They might get through all those wickets and get to a team and environments that you hadn't been exposed to, even in OTC now happen and you're just not the guy for the job or sometimes personality is just flat out, don't click. Yeah. And those things happen.

But yeah, I think that, I think think they dialed in the type of person that has the aptitude to succeed. And they've capitalized on that ever since it's inception. OK, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. So you graduate OCC. Yep. How do you, who determines what squadron you're going to? Good question.

It's a bit of a draft. I think they look at all your performance metrics. I'm never going to part of it, so I've never been on that side of it. But the way I've always understood it is, you know, whatever the pecking order is, whoever has first choice, and I think it rotates, you know, usually you're going to take

the top performer in the class. There's a guy that's outshot everybody that's out this or out PT or whatever. There's usually a couple of guys that are up to the top and everything, a couple of guys that are all the way down to the bottom and everything, and then the rest of us are somewhere in between. And I think they just go through and pick

and then think about personalities and how the instructors describe you and figure out where you'd be the best fit. Yeah, it's that in depth. So it's like an NFL draft. Yeah. Who's scouting? Well, the instructors all come from each of the squadrons.

Okay, so post team leader time, a good portion of team leaders rotate out into selection and training and they become OTC instructors. So you have representation from each of the squadrons within the operator training course on the cadres side. And so they all talks to them themselves and they all talk with people back in the squadrons where they came from. And I think collectively they're charged with giving the best evaluation if it would be a good fit where. And then at the end of the day at the board you go through a board again and it's the senior non-commissioned officer from each squadron and the commander of each squadron is who's making the call on this guy or that guy based on those recommendations. When it comes to the culture over there, I've heard different things,

working with different people and interviewing different people. From what I've heard, are there squadrons that are, it seems like background plays a little bit more of a role when you get into the unit. And where I'm going with this is a, from whatever there's a squadron that is very SF heavy a squadron that's very Ranger heavy and squadron that's very mixed back and not heavy and that's all I've heard I don't know everything but yeah I'm sorry to that I mean I've heard that too but then over the years there's guys that I thought were guys that came out of regiment and turns out they were green braze and vice versa or guys that I thought were guys that came out of regiment and turns out they were Green Berets and vice versa, or guys that I thought were Green

Berets and they came from the regular army and I had no idea. I think it's pretty much a mixed bag. I think eSquatter had different personalities for sure. My personal opinion is during my time, which is small compared to a lot of guys. I was there for nine, 10 years or whatever. So I only have my own sampling. But I was a sea-squatter guy and I always felt like sea-squatterin was a little more laid back than at the time, the other two, there's three now, four total now. But I felt like they were a little more laid back.

I felt like they were a little more laid back. I felt like they were a little more cerebral, a little more open to everybody's input, plays into the decisions. And then I felt like there were other squadrons that were a little more like range regiment. Like the older guys have to say, and they were a little more gruff, or maybe a little more competitive. But yeah, but I mean,

we're talking nuanced stuff. Like they're all the same. All right. I really think, as much as I think I ended up in the right place, there's plenty of examples where guys have bounced between different squadrons and had no issue. You know, you just adapt to the environment

that you're in now and that's part of what makes them great is they can do that. But yeah, I don't know if the actual numbers are different amongst the squadrons if that was ever a thing or if that is a thing, but mine C squadron was a mixed bag. Yeah, we had guys from Regiment, we had guys of Green Berets, we had guys from Regan Army, like you name it, we had guys from other services eventually.

They had a couple of Marines in my squadron at one point. Marine Corps is the only weird one because the Marine Corps won't let those guys go. So they're still technically Marines. No shit. Yeah. If you come from the Navy and end up making it to selection and you make it, they all process you from the Navy. It imprashish to the Army and give you an army, especially skill or whatever, MLS. The Marine Corps holds on to them so they can pull them back at any point. I don't know if that's what it used to be. I don't know if it's still that way, but yeah. Because I think Keith Oaks was the first, Gunny Oaks was the first guy from like force that I was aware of that came over.

Okay. And then there's only ever been one dev group guy that did it and he had a break in service. It wasn't like he left Dev and came to the unit. He left Dev, got out, did some things. 9-11 happened. And he went, how do I get back in the fight? And then some buddies of his said, you need to go to, go to Kagman,

like you need to go to the unit. And it's a long, funny story that you should probably interview him at some point, but he ended up going through and making it and ended up in the army. To date, I think he's the only dev guy that ever has done both, but I think there's been a few other guys from the CEO community that have done it over the years. Yeah. Has anybody that you know of switched the other side? Not that I'm aware of.

No. Yeah. I don't even know. I don't even know if you would do it. You know, I mean, like there's a mechanism on the unit side to do that. I don't know that there's a mechanism to go the other way. Interesting.

But you know, in that relationship, Ebb's and Flows over time. Yeah. We had, we were like this for a bunch of years and then the exchange between the two organizations, you know, that Stan McRistle did in the early 2000s, that improved a lot of things and made both organizations better, and we got a lot better.

So this is a generation of us from that, like, early 2000s combat air, where we're all really good friends. Yeah. I don't know about now. Maybe it's gone back to the, you know, fuck those guys. I don't know about now. Maybe it's gone back to the, you know, fuck those guys. I don't know. But it was a funny evolution for my peer group at least. So back to your own experience. You get in, you go to see Squadron. What is that environment like? Super fast.

Is it welcoming? Nobody was there. So C Squadron was deployed to Afghanistan when I crossed the hall, as they say. So the initial stuff happened right after 9-11. That was a different squadron that did Gecko and all those early incursions into Afghanistan. The next rotation C took over for them. So it's in the spring of 02.

The squadron I got assigned to deployed. So when I finished OTC and went to C squadron, I didn't even go to Halo school then part of the pipeline was after OTC. If you hadn't been, you went to Halo school and and some advanced demolition stuff. And I didn't even do those because I got to squadron. They basically in process, there was a skeleton crew left there. They equipped us and then in less than two weeks, I was on a plane headed to Afghanistan. Oh, so you met them?

I'm pretty much even coming back. Yep. Shit. Straight out of school. How... That could be, yeah. That could be tough. They could be either very welcoming because they need you or they could be who the fuck is this guy showing up mid deployment. How was it? Mixed bag. Yeah. The team, fantastic. The team was great. And I think they were all adult

enough, experienced enough and smart enough to know that tonight, this guy could be on our left or our right. So it behooves us to be accepting, get him up to speed anywhere that he's not, make sure he's equipped properly, et cetera, et cetera. So the team that I went to was very welcoming. All of them are still long time friends to this day, like they were just really, really good dudes. The troop, so expanding out a little bit. Yeah, sure, there's some practical jokes and some things that occur. And like, who was this guy?

But at the end of the day, it was minimal. And I think it was because they were a war. Like they were for deployed. And okay, you're part of this. Let's go. We don't know what our next hit's gonna be. I think I got lucky that, again, timing that my first deployment was Afghanistan, because back then, it wasn't that bad. Like, they only did like six or eight hits, that entire rotation. I got there about midway through it. So, I only did like four mission sets.

Really? So, I got some training time. Yeah, we did like a recce mission. My first thing with the team was a low viz basically walk in, hit, and yeah, blew much doors through some flashbangs, didn't pull the trigger. I didn't pull the trigger once that first rotation to Afghanistan. So I got to integrate with the team.

I got to learn. I got to realize how slow I was. You know, smashing to a Afghani door and bust the bridge of my nose and pop the nods off my helmet on my very first target ever. You know, like, there's a lot of little moments in there. But being at war, joining that organization and a team at war, it was the stuff that you can't get in the OTC. It was like, I'm on target in combat,

hunt bad dudes, and you know, your troop sergeant majors on the radio and he's dead pancom. Roger that, this is too, too. Pah, pah, pah, pah. You know, you didn't even get that in the regular army and training, they'd get all fired up when you were at, you know, JRTC, you know, fake stuff going on.

And it was just a really good way and a very real way to join something like that. When you got to Afghanistan, that's a real, I don't know how long, how long were you there? Or how long was the deployment if you can say? Oh, their deployment was, well, some guys were there prior to an AFO stuff stuff another, but the squadron as a whole,

I think was there for three and a half months. Three and a half months. And I only caught like the tail end, so like a month and a half of that. Maybe eight hits and three and a half months. Were you, were you expecting more when you got there? Yeah, I was. Were you disappointed?

No, no, no. We did enough that, I mean, because it's don't get me wrong. Like I was nervous and every night out, like I didn't know. Even other guys that said, you know, like some things that happened, there was a couple little things that had happened.

But yeah, I mean, I wasn't disappointed. I felt like we got to do a little of a bunch of different things. You know, there was some funny stuff that happened, but I felt like we got to do a little of a bunch of different things You know there was some funny stuff that happened But I felt like I got to integrate with my team and get to know those guys You know because you know on a deployment you get to know people on a different level Mm-hmm. It's not like being home stateside where you go home every night like you're with them 24-7 So for me, I was really grateful like for the way that it all worked out just getting to know those guys on that level being forced to get up to speed as quickly as possible for the way that it all worked out. Just getting to know those guys on that level,

being forced to get up to speed as quickly as possible. Cause you coming out to see and you think you're hot shit, and then you get there and you realize, oh my God, I had no idea how good these guys were at this and I feel like they didn't teach me anything again. And so yeah, but yeah, you quickly adapt and become a part of it. And then we, I think we redeployed in July timeframe, shortly after July 4th. And then that summer was basically when the churn started for prepping to potentially invade Iraq. Before we go to Iraq,

you showed up in a combat zone at the most capable unit in the fucking world, probably nervous, terribly. Nervous, the team's not gonna like you at nervous that you're going to combat. Usually, from my own experience, when I see people show up mid deployment, including myself, I've done it and you're new, you're usually drawn to one particular person that kind of takes you under their wing. What was that for you? Yeah, it was Brad Thomas. If folks out there

have heard Brad's name, Brad started the band Sounds and the Light, 100% of the proceeds from their music goes to charity. I was from Delaware, Brad was from Maryland, Brad was a Somali event, 93 was in BCO 375 during the Black Hawk Down incident on October 3rd and lived through all that and then hung around and eventually became a unit operator and yeah, like he'd been through some stuff. And so I looked up to him right away. He sort of took me in right away and we were pretty tight back then. Like I looked up to him like a big brother, still do to this day.

But my whole team then, like all those guys were just solid and very helpful and all a little different in their own way. And yeah, we all do a pretty good job of hanging on even all these years later. Like that first team, we were together in combat for multiple rotations after that. And that didn't happen later on, like guys would come and go or get injured or whatever, but yeah, that core group of like four guys I was with for three or four combat rotations. And yeah, Brad was always kind of there as a mentor. What was one of the biggest lessons you've learned

or you learned on that deployment maybe through humiliation? Like fuck, I can't believe I just did that. Did you make any of those mistakes on that first deployment? I think the biggest lesson for me was trust your instincts. So I was on a rooftop, my very first target. Like I said, I already busted my nose and torn my nods off my head

and whatever, tried to put them back together. But we were on the rooftop pulling security and I was like right side security looking like north down this road. I think we had some rangers in a couple blocking positions or maybe the wrecky troop guys, we had some snipers or something out. And again, no shots fired,

but we had aggressively taken this target down and secured some detainees, and we're just waiting to ex-fill basically. And this guy came running down the road with an AK, and I was the only one that's all I'm. And I said to Mikey, a teammate of mine, I said, hey, there's a dude running down the road with an AK, and I was the only one that's all him. And I said to Mikey, a teammate of mine, I said, hey, there's a dude running down the road with an AK. And something about it just didn't feel right.

Like he wasn't like he was running to get in the fight. It was like he was running to come look or like see how he could help. There was just something about his body language. And again, I'm a brand new guy in combat. And I said, so this guy running down the road with an AK and Mikey not looking in that direction goes, so shoot him.

Well, within my rights, right? He's coming into our target area of rules and engagement. I was good. Totally could have smoked that guy. It just didn't feel right. And so I yelled back, I go, I don't think he needs to be shot. And then Mikey being, you know, a solid dude,

I think radioed down, said, hey, there's a dude coming up the street because I'm, you know, oblivious radioed down to the guys on that corner and said, this guy come up shooting with an AK. Well, they ended up stopping him. They didn't shoot him. They just stopped him. He was like the local law enforcement.

He was actually a friendly to us and a guy that had worked with, you know, US forces over there. And he just heard all the noises and commotion and thought somebody was in trouble and he needed to come help and he was coming down the road and to investigate. So nothing wrong with that dude, I would have been well within my rights to smoke him, but he's hopefully still alive today because I trusted my gut and I didn't just do the instinctive thing which is guy with a gun running in the target area pull the trigger. Oh good for you.

So it stuck with me most of the time throughout the rest of my deployments that served me well. There's a couple instances that I regret not pulling the trigger, but yeah, for the most part, it taught me to trust my gut. Where do you regret not pulling the trigger? Years later in Iraq, we hit a target in Fallujah and we were chasing a bomb maker and we didn't know really anything about it. We had like a name, we had no image, we didn't know age, like none of that stuff.

We had some some familial tie and a name and we hit this house and there was a bunch of people in the house and when I made entry into the room across the room, there was a doorway and this kid to me, I mean kid, babyface, and I was a babyface guy and a young guy at the time, and I wouldn't have guessed he was but 14 years old. But he reached down and grabbed an AK, and I basically went from the high ready to on him to off safe, and I yelled, don't do it,

and he threw the AK on the ground. Like he got to like here and then he like saw me and then he threw the AK on the ground and I went straight at him across the room as the guys fanned out. And I think I pushed him initially and he fell down and then I kicked him a number of times. And it was I was amped up because I almost had to shoot in my mind this kid and is because he picked up a gun for whatever reason. So I was mad at him. So I was kicking him, not like really aggressively, just like, I can't believe you would do that kind of thing.

You know what I mean? And another teammate grabbed me and was like, Hey, it's cool. It's cool. When we picked him up and and flexed off him or whatever and then went on with the target. Well, it turns out, so that dude was, he was just a young baby-faced guy, but he was like the area expert on IED construction. And he had been building bombs and they had this garage facility where they were building those bombs and blah, blah, blah, blah.

But they put him, not us, another group of guys put him in a vehicle the next day to take him out and do a close target reconnaissance and get him to point out where all these facilities were after interrogation all that he said he would show them where all their stuff was. And it's in Fallujah, broad daylight, he's in the back of the van.

They cuffed his wrists, you know, so he's in the back of the van with his wrist cuffs, but they didn't cuff him to the vehicle. So, he leads them through the market in downtown Fluja. There's thousands of people out on the street, broad daylight, and he goes, see that building right there? And the dudes that were in the truck all turn and look to the right, and he slid the window open and hopped out, ran into the crowd. So the guys got out of the vehicle, they pursued him for like 10 feet and then realized they're in a crowd of 1,000 Iraqis.

And they're the only gringos standing in the market. So they thought better of it than they let him go. Sure. And so my mind for years with that one was like, I don't know how many more people that do kill. Like how many more people is bombs killed. How many more people he taught had to make bombs. And I carried that one around.

And I don't disagree with my decision to pull the trigger. Like he, especially then, like he, he was starting to become a threat and then he chose not to be. And I gave it the benefit of doubt I did, what the good guys do, and I didn't shoot him. And, but yeah, but yeah, I carried that and went, man, who knows, like, should I have shot that guy? Like, he gave me the opportunity,

I would have been well with him in my rights. He picked that weapon up, like he was gonna use it. I just gave him a split second long enough to get rid of it and he didn't get shot. Damn. What year were you guys in Afghanistan? That was 02. 02, oh shit, this is very early.

Yeah, that's super early. Yeah, that was like, oh, I have one. Like I said, C squad, I was like this. I think they were the second rotation from our unit to go over. Okay. B squad, I had done Gekko prior. What? So eight hits. I don't know how target rich that environment was at that particular time. I was, I was still in training. but I would think there would be a lot of targets. What was special about those eight targets to send a tier one asset after? Good question.

And I don't even remember, at one point we laughed, at one point we did a route reconnaissance. Okay, okay. Yeah, and I remember the older guys, all bitching that you're sending the most highly trained individuals in the world to do a route recon, to confirm if a bridge is out or not. Shhh. Looking back hindsight, I think it was a combination of things. We had limited assets

at that point. Our collection capability was nothing like it was several years later. We didn't have eyes overhead. We had a P3 Orion at 10,000 feet because of the hard deck was 9,500 feet because they were worried of stinger missiles and all that stuff. It was a real early time and I think they were coming up with stuff to do. Before I got there, they did some joint stuff with the Kiwis, with New Zealand SAS, like some mobility stuff down south. We did a route reconnaissance, we did a recommission where we inserted and went up in the hills and

did some observation, we did a couple of hits. And the hit was like a low-vis hit, so for me I was like, this is cool. Low-vis is the funniest term ever, right? It's white guys in body armor and swimming clothes. Who are low viz? You know, in Tacomas or whatever, high laces or whatever. Yeah, I just think I think there was limited intelligence. I think there was limited things to do that early

and they just didn't know where guys were. So this is post. Where were you guys at, batterally? All over. So we were in Bagram, we were flute on a coast and did some stuff down there. We flew or drove up through Jolalabad to Asadabad and we were in Asadabad for a little bit.

Were all these vabs like stood up already? Just starting to stand up. So, okay. Jbad was a safe house. As thought a bod was a small phob I Don't remember what was down south and then Bogram was small bug growing shit But yeah, you know like Torbore and all that stuff had happened just before all that So everybody went to ground after Torbore like when all those events happened

So I think we were there right in that time when there was just nothing. Everybody went to Stone Age, nobody knew where anybody was. We'd killed a bunch of guys early on and dropped a lot of bombs, and it ditched the targets dried up. So yeah, they're wanting a lot to do.

No shit, yeah. Yes, so like guys that when I got there, like dudes that have been there AFO for months and were involved in Tor Boran You know the John McFeeze in the world, you know share for Baghdad and all those cats like I I remember thinking how bad Asked that was like like these dudes had just been out here. We flew into coast and there was a couple dudes that had been there for like months Like living in this Shit hole, you know with like a A10 and they would get rocketed every night.

You know, they had a joke about if they lit a fire, they would get ordered or rocketed. And so one night they cracked a bunch of chemites and threw them in a pile when they still got a rocket. Ha ha ha. But yeah, I remember looking up to those guys and they were raggedy and dirty and had huge afghani beards and I can't even grow beard still this day.

But I remember thinking, man, this dude's been here a long time like them again after it. And then we finished up at the end of that rotation and went home and I was like, yeah, that was a lot different than I thought I was gonna be. But yeah, no, but looking back, no, it was good. Like I got to integrate with the team.

Yeah, I can't imagine joining a team in combat in like, in like, go 50 50607 like that would have been a Completely different experience. Yeah Well, let's say a quick break and when we come back we'll get in Iraq. Cool Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan show if you haven't already Please take a minute Head over to iTunes, and leave the Sean Ryan show review. We read every review that comes through, and we really appreciate

the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show. Alright Chris, we're back. You just did a pump in Afghanistan, your first one at the unit, come back. Now you're going to Iraq. How long did you come home for before you had no Iraq? Yeah, we got home in July. I think by mid fall, we were in full blown. We knew that we were potentially gonna invade Iraq and we were doing a full-blown prep training for doing a long-range desert mobility and invading the country.

And then I think we deployed in February of 03 to our Saudi Arabia, which was our staging point to kick off the invasion. No shit. Wouldn't it, so, I mean, how did that feel knowing that you're going to go beyond the initial front for invading a country? A wild. Yeah, I mean, we were excited. One, there was the historic nature of it. So take away all the sides of going to war and not going to war when you train to be a part

of one of the most lead organizations on the planet. You know, it's like practicing to play in a football game. You know, you wanna play in the football game. So we were pumped, we were excited, we were excited that we were chosen to be the force that did that particular mission set. There was some legacy there, so the unit had done long-range desert mobility in the first Gulf War,

basically hunting scuds in the western desert by RAC, to try to eliminate that threat and synoms ability to influence things outside of the country, and shoot those missiles into Saudi Arabia and other countries. In this particular case, it was a different mission set, but along the same lines. So we were basically hunting WMD throughout the Western Desert. Current intel believes in hindsight, it does a lot of things to the Iraq war. You and I both know. But at the time, we firmly believe that he had some type of WMD in whatever form.

We assumed it was chemical at that time. And that if he was going to have it, that it was going to be stored not in Baghdad or to create, but it was going to be outside of the city. In one of their outstations, their embossed supply points that were moving west out of Baghdad and into the western desert. So yeah, we were excited, nervous, I think, but the legacy piece, you know, having been done in the first golf war, and then, you know, the last time a desert mobility was done prior to that was like way back in World War II, like in North Africa.

So it was a pretty neat thing to train and prepare for. It was different. It's not like you covered desert mobility in OTC. I think I probably had as much experience as anybody in that. I had done that rotation to Kuwait with a mechanized unit. So I personally understood what it was like to be out unsupported in the middle of the desert and crossing long distances. So yeah, I was super pumped and excited for it. The weird part was when I got to R. Saudi Arabia, this is our universe discussion right here. So when I got to R. Saudi Arabia,

there were two other units that were co-located with us. One was some components of third-range battalion, one of which was Charlie Company, third range battalion, which is the company that I was a part of. No shit. The other was one company from the 82nd Airborne Division, which were accompanying like a high Mars detachment or something else, but it was Alpha Company II-325. Damn.

So literally two of the three other organizations I had ever been a part of were all in that same spot at that point in time in history. And I've thought about that over the years. I'm like, what are the odds? If I'd stayed in third range of Italian and I don't know what I would have been at that point, probably a squad leader or something, but I would have been right there. If I would have stayed in AlfaCommie second three two five, I would have been right there.

Damn. That's a really weird that is crazy. Yeah, so that I think that even at the time I think I took that like this is where I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to be doing And I think I had a lot more at least personal conference confidence going into that Then I did go into Afghanistan because I had deployed once I got to know my team I felt like we had trained and prepared very well for that. And we were ready to go. How long were you there before you guys cross the border? A couple of weeks, I think.

Yeah. It was not a very good, it was a kind of miserable existence. They slowly but surely shoved a bunch of people into that area and we didn't have the support structure to do it. So like in the beginning, we had like four portapoddies for like 400 dudes. Oh.

So they were literally overflowing. You know, it was disgusting. It was cold. Like the weather wasn't great. It was winter still on the desert. Yeah, but I think it was a couple of weeks before we, yeah, got our, like, last mission brief and speech from the J.S.O. commander and off we went. Damn, I can't even imagine the anticipation of, I mean, is it going to be today? Did you

guys know when it was going to be? No, like the exact day. No, not that I recall in the beginning. I mean, they would do team leader meetings and stuff every day and they would talk about things. But I don't remember us having a hard date till shortly before we left. But like I said, we weren't there that long. There's a, in most of the portions of that border between Iraq and Saudi Arabia,

there's a double berm system. That's really all that separates it. It's not like there's fencing or anything else. And so there's two berms. And then at various intervals, with miles and miles between them, are Iraqi outposts that are like towers, where they would post Iraqi military guys to sort of keep watch on the border. So we knew we had to cross those two berms. We were going to do it in between outposts. That aviation assets,

he-lose, you know, 160th guys, we're going to take out the two outposts on either side and a radio communications point to hopefully silence their ability to say hey someone has crossed into our country. How did it go? Good, yeah, like we started out, I think we drove most of the first night just getting to the border from where we were. So we spent a night out in the desert in Saudi Arabia where we all just sort of bagged out. And it was really cold.

Like we actually, I think we got a little snow that night, like nothing that stuck, but you know, you're in the middle of the desert, it snows. And it reminded me of I read a SAS guy, Amy McNabb's book, Bravo 2-0. And he talks about it in that before they're incident where they got snow. And I remember thinking, wow, that's weird.

I can't expect to get snowed on in the desert. But yeah, we had a little snow. It was cold. We had every piece of snow here we owned on. I was driving most of the time. Like as a newer guy on the team, I drove the Penns' Gower, the Six-Wield on Armored Vehicle, that our team was on, and we had an ATV and our team as well. So I drove the Gower, in this case Brad drove the ATV and we would

rotate positions. He and I, driving one or the other, because you couldn't drive the ATV every night, because we had thumb throttles. Yeah. And you'd get that jello thumb from holding that throttled out all the time. But yeah, we spent the night in Saudi Arabia, moved up to the berm. They had done some arrow reconnaissance and they had found a bulldozer that was sitting all by itself in a location on the Saudi Arabian side who knows who it belonged to. But we had mechanics with us, which is interesting too, but in order to support our element, we needed that technical expertise.

So those guys invaded right along with us on our vehicles. Nice. And they hot-wired the bulldozer and used the bulldozer to plow down enough of the berm that we could drive the vehicles over. And so after they had finished plowing the berm, we kind of coordinated efforts. 160th came in and all we heard, you know, was the calls over the radio, but they basically smoked the two guard towers

on either side and we drove into Iraq. Did you start gauging people? No, no. So we didn't... How long did it take? I don't remember if it was the first night or the second night. So we had a series of targets planned along the way.

We would drive all night basically, under night vision. We had some other technology on our side. Like we had ground-based fleer balls at the time. Wow. It was the first time they were used. You know, other than that, it was like helos and aircraft and stuff like that. They didn't have them on ground-based vehicles. And so we actually had them on like every, I think we had three total for the squadron

And my vehicle was one of the ones with the flair So I had this big LCD screen between me and chili who was the team leader at the time and he was sitting in the TCC You know in the passenger seat of the gower and so I could see everything he looked at with the flair ball So that was nice, but Either the first or second night we had bedded down for our rest over day sites, so we'd find a a wadi or a depression or something to hide in, put camo netting out, put out security and then get some rack for the day, eat some chow, et cetera. And we woke up to an aircraft fire. Like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and it went on for like 30 minutes and it sounded like it was just over like the next

rise, like it was really close. And now it's probably the first like, okay, we're in a, we just invaded a country and we're at war and it won't be long before we're involved in something. And I think if we had a big fear during all that time, it was that we were in unarmored vehicles. You guys were in unarmored vehicles? No, no, no, whatsoever. All that technology and yet unarmored, why did you have unarmored vehicles?

Because the platforms were built for long-range desert mobility. Okay. You know, we had a lot of guns. You know, like I think our defense was, we're gonna put more stuff in your direction than you can put in ours. We had some anti-tank weapons, you know, that I think our defense was we're gonna put more stuff in your direction than you can put in ours We had some anti tank weapons, you know, with that we brought with us

We had some cruise-serve stuff on top of each one of the vehicles But yeah on armored vehicles there really wasn't an option other than that to cover that kind of distance And we were having drive thousands of miles. Yeah, I guess I mean Fuck I guess I a D's weren't like a huge thing. No, wasn't even on the radar yet. And we were literally driving across the desert. It wasn't like we were on roads. Like we were in Navin across open desert. Okay.

And then yeah, so that an aircraft fire that first morning and then shortly after I think we hit our first target which was an Iraqi outpost and ammo supply point. So it was basically just like you see at Airfields, like in the US where they have like all of the bunkers, all over. It was one of those that was used for store ammunition. And yeah, we did a hit on basically the guard outpost

where they were. It was the first time some shots were fired. And I was driving. So I drove up to the target house. Some stuff happened in the beginning and some couple of Iraqi guards were shot. Then we made entry into the facility, but it was minimal skeleton crew out there. Then we proceeded to clear basically every bunker in the M.O. supply point looking for WMD. So don't know what we were tasked to do.

That continued for a while. We did that at numerous locations. Some of the little more activity than others. In a lot of cases, we would pull up short, use the flare ball and call in, cast, call in, close air support, and drop a bunch of bombs on an objective before we would move in. So different mindset than we were used to,

you know, as a counterterrorism force or a hostage rescue force or whatever we were, we were used to, you know, as a counterterrorism force or hostage rescue force or whatever we were, we were basically doing, you know, ifotractic raid style missions on these compounds. So that was a little different. And kind of cool just to do full, you know, the full gamut. But we definitely own the night. We could see them miles and miles before they could see us. And we definitely had, you know, there wasn't anybody in country yet. So we had all the air assets. It was, I think we were in country for four days when the first Mali, Atama Hook missiles, and all that stuff got fired into Iraq.

And when they started the push from the south, so we had been in country for a little bit and done a few things before any of the regular invasion actually started. Damn, that's pretty fucking cool man. I mean that's US history. Next on the Sean Ryan show. You know there's an element of wanting to be there. I mean we personally witnessed a lot of the horror that that guy was responsible for. And they said it's like a melting Bob Horgon.

To this day, I don't remember like what happened in the next 24 to 48 hours. I'm gonna share some of my experience. Experience. The Bullwork Podcast focuses on political analysis and reporting without partisan loyalties. Real sense of déjà vu sprinkled on our PTSD. So things are going well, I guess. Every Monday through Friday, Charlie Sykes speaks with guests about the latest stories

from Inside Washington and around the world. You document in a very compelling way. All of the positive things have come out of this, but it also feels like we have this massive hangover. No shouting or grandstanding. Principles over partisanship. The Bullwalk Podcast, wherever you listen. No shouting or grandstanding.

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