Shawn Ryan Show - #77 Tom Satterly - Delta Force CSM (RET) "All Secure" | Part 3

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

This week on SRS, we welcome Command SGT Major (R), Tom Satterly to the show. Satterly is a former Delta Force Operator with over twenty years of combat experience. He has participated in operations all across the globe. We're breaking his incredible story into a three part series. Part 3 In this episode, Satterly tells us about the aftermath of Somalia and his career during the Global War on Terror. Then, we get into Satterly's transition out of Special Operations and into his civilian life where his personal war was just beginning. SRS also welcomes special guest Co-Founder & CEO of All Secure Foundation. Jen & Tom share some eye opening statistics around Veteran suicide and give an unfiltered look at what families go through when their warriors come home. They give us this insight through the lens of their own marriage. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://hvmn.com/shawn https://betterhelp.com/shawn Tom & Jen Satterly Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tomsatterly All Secure Foundation - https://www.allsecurefoundation.org All Secure Foundation IG - https://www.instagram.com/allsecurefoundation Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/virago_allsecurefoundation Jen IG - https://www.instagram.com/jen.satterly Books - https://www.allsecurefoundation.org/category/books Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Previously on the Sean Ryan show. This is going to be your last interview on Mogadishim, what happened in Somalia. I heard some of the most about the trash bags. Talking about the spouses, those body parts were in the trash bag. She can't use trash but it's. This past weekend, we all reacted with anger and horror. As an arm Sonali gang, desecrated the bodies of our American soldiers and displayed a captured American pilot. Remember getting nervous, but still, we're'm gonna be home for dinner, right? You know, just joking around.

And then another RPG, I remember looking up and seeing it hit the helicopter. Tail to helicopter. You saw it hit. Yeah, and it just started auto-rotating him like, oh man, no, no, you know. These tragic events raise hard questions about our effort in Somali. I saw a guy across the street pop out with an AK and aim it up. He either shot him right in the head or whatever. He disappeared in the room and his weapon flew out the window.

Was that your first kill? The guy on the roof? Yeah. So that was exciting for you. It was. So I don't get this detail, typically. And it still hurts, you know? Yeah. It's funny. People say, well, and it still hurts, you know? Yeah.

It's funny people say, well tell me about some of your... Let's talk about some of my life instantly. I feel it, you know? Is there anything that could have been done... after that operation... that could have... improved your mental state for the rest of your career. I'm talking about it. Getting everybody together to talk about it. All right Tom, welcome back for day two.

All right, ready to do it. All right man. Well we covered your as much as of your careers we can cover in one day yesterday. And today, we're kind of getting into some of the other side of this coin, you know, and what it's like coming into civilian life. But before, before we get post retirement, I just want to backtrack and I want to talk about what are some of the things that you're dealing with and some of the things that you're using to cope with with the experiences that you've had throughout your career. I mean a lot of guys, you know, a lot of guys resort to booze, a lot of bar fights, a lot

of women problems, a lot of pills, a lot of drugs. Some of them pushed on you from, I've had stuff pushed on me from units and commands. Maybe you have, I don't know, but it's an ongoing discussion and more and more just unravels as time goes on. So I'm just wondering what are some of the things you were doing behind the scenes? All of that, all of that. And that started towards end of my career. I couldn't tell you what year,

hiding and drinking, going home at night and drinking, literally all night until I passed out and returned to work the next day and doing all that. It was struggling to stay on top, struggling to feel relevant, getting older, getting weaker, body's breaking down and all these kids are coming up. And it's just embarrassing to start getting passed in a run or a race or a team event. You're starting to be the last guy in the team event. And it's just that shameful feeling of, man, I'm not capable of being here anymore.

So all the drinking started, the suicidal ideation, the worthlessness, the, you know, I just wanna crash my tree into the bridge of Butman, you know, and just thinking that all the time. Thinking about suicide a lot, but never with a pistol. And so, let me break it down a little bit more because I feel like it's too broad of a spectrum.

What was family life after Mogadishu? What was that like coming home to your wife? Cold. I think I was cold. That wasn't one of the great marriages that I had anyway and it wasn't one of the more affectionate ones. It was just, but I had definitely changed. I know my first wife has passed

and she was close friends with my sister. And so I had this story in my head of her boyfriend came and I cleaned my house out with her and she moved back and I didn't blame her because I was never home. And it was probably 95, 94. So about a year after I got back from Somalia, we divorced. It just wasn't. My head was in never happening again, right? So I'm always at work doing the same things that work never home. Now I'd get up, I don't know, four in the morning or ride my bike to work, and then I'd work out. And I'd take Sharon Eat breakfast, and then shoot all day, you know,

and then work out, and then CQB, and then ride my bike home after work out. And just, that's late in the evening. And I'm smoked. I go to bed. We didn't talk. I don't know. I didn't have the feelings to talk. I didn't have any emotions. So that just crumbled. Did you realize what was happening? No, I just, I thought about work. Was there even any talk of post-traumatic stress, TBI, anything at that point? No, not a thing about it. Just put your head down to get to work.

I didn't tell anybody I was divorced saying, I was just, I think my team knew. And I came back from a trip, I think in Israel, and my house was cleaned out. Nothing left but a lawn chair. I actually had to go get the lawn chair, the shed and the back, and I laid in that for that night. I thought, well, you know, the next day, it's funny thing.

The next day I got out and my team at Cora and helped me roof my house. You know, take off shingles and start this huge pound saturday hour and then help me roof the house. Then we took off to Israel. When I came back, a friend of mine who had stayed back for school or something, I called him, I go, that crazy lady even took the shingles on the side of the house and he had loaded them up

and taken into the dumpster while we were gone. And he's like, oh, he's our laver, because that was me, man. I was like, she took it all, even the shingles on the pile side of the house, but non-existent relationship. And then that was followed up by a two-year marriage. There was- A year marriage. Yeah, that was, uh, she ended up having, and I found out she was having a affair for like probably 18 months to two years of her married because I was gone all the time.

And again, it was like, all right, I got it later. You know, I got a phone call one day. Some guy we were trying to hire at work. He wanted to work at work. She's like, oh, I've been having a, you know, a affair with this dude. I'm'm like, oh really? I'll be home in a minute. You know? Look at the team guys and I was like, all right, I'm going to go home and in this relationship guys and guess who it was. And I told them and you know, my friends are like, that's it. That dude's done. But you know, that's just emotional talk from my friends. And I just went home and another guy at the unit. Yeah, you know, your friends are like, I'm going to go crush that dude. I'm like, really? I mean, we all know who we are, right? I mean, when it happens to us, it's different.

You know, in question form. So it's that judgment that we give on everyone else, yet we're doing the same thing, right? Yeah, we're doing the same things at the time. So got married a third time and that's when I had a child and I thought that would make it better. That's your son? Yeah, what's his name? Thomas. And I thought having a kid would make it better. And it was one of those soon as she gave birth, I went to Bosnia. Gone for three months, you know, and she had postpartum. I didn't know at the time her mother had to come over and help her You know, she was having suicidal ideation trying to take care of this kid. I Never got told any of that until later. You know in that relationship

Maybe on average You know relationship still always gone when I'm home. I'm training when I'm home I'm really not mentally home. I'm thinking about what's next So again over 10 year period we grew apart and that took me through retirement. And then like I said, probably about two weeks after the day I retired, I was in a mom Jordan for a year and a half.

So it was one of those, you know, we'll make money and that'll make it better. And I still didn't try to get help. I drank everything in Jordan. You know, it was just all the guys with me, all S.F. guys, retired. All the same. Everyone the same. Hiding it, drinking it away.

Every now and then you hear little stories, you're like, oh, I kind of get it. You know, I'm back to drinking it away. When did you start the medications in the coping and when you were in? One time, one of the docs called me in the office and I was having issues at work like I couldn't focus. I never slept. I was just always wired, just wired.

And I started noticing I'm well-tank. I went and talked to one of the docs and told him how I was slept. I was just always wired and just wired. And I started noticing I'm well tight. I went and talked to one of the dogs and told him how it's feeling. He's like, oh, here, pro's act. You need this. Congratulations. You lasted longer than I thought. You know? And I was like, oh, what's everybody on pro's act here?

And I started taking it. And that's the first time I start taking naps in a meal the day. I'm like, man, I need to sleep and I just started to feel like a zombie. So I think two and a half weeks after taking it, maybe a little longer, I just stop taking it because I didn't like it. And I think a couple of weeks later, I went and told the duck, he's like, how are you doing? I'm like, I quit taking that shit. He's like, you need to taper off that stuff. Well, I go, I could just quit it, you know. And had, yeah, I had issues after quitting it, but I didn't want to feel that way.

You know, I felt like I was, you know, dulling my blade or something. So I didn't want to take that. So I refused. I didn't look for any treatment after that. I thought, well, it's just going to make me asleep, make me a zombie. I don't want to be that zombie. I need to be awake and do my thing. So I didn't take anything after that until after I met Jen and until after I nearly ruined everything with her.

You know, I used to tell her, you know, don't tell me I'm at rock bottom. I pulled out of your camera. How did I meet her? It was at work. We were actually, I was retired and I passed the Amon Jordan time and into contracting. And we were making a video for another operator who was doing like an event, you know, a fun event kind of thing. We're special ops guys come in and teach you how to put on your kit, teach you how to wear it, teach you how to CQB, and then you go and you shoot zombies, right? It was kind of fun. It was like doing a RMTT, but it was zombies, you know, you didn't really have to die. We did that for a bit. I met her filming for it, like shooting a real for it. And I didn't really know who she was.

I didn't really pay attention to her. I was in a miserable 268 pound state, you know, knowing I was 268 pounds, telling myself it was a muscle, but knowing I hadn't worked out in a year and a half. So I was just trying to stay relevant, but I didn't care about anybody. And somebody brought her in and was like, hey, this is Tom from Black Hawk Down. And I just kinda looked, hey, and looked back.

And that was it. And I think they came later and like, we're gonna go to the hospital. We hear it's haunted. You wanna come like now? I don't know, I just sat there on that couch, like whatever. Film the whole thing. Got back on one of my friends, like, no, I don't, you know, I just sat there on that couch, like whatever. Film the whole thing. Got back on one of my friends,

like, you see that hot chick, you know, and I'm like, which one, the Asian? Cause I remember like two girls there. I don't, you know, he's like, no, no, no, this one, he pulls up, I picture and I'm like, oh, so I'm on LinkedIn, I sit in her, staring in her picture, and I was like, man, she's gorgeous, how do I miss that?

You know, how did I miss that? My eyes and head were down. I was just miserable. And so I linked into it. And at some point she accepted it. And the next time we got together to do more filming, it's like, hey, my pickup line was, hey, I linked into you.

And I was like, one of those, how cool is this? I had no game. I had no game. Been married my whole life, even multiple times, but I had no game. And just kind of started talking. We started working together filming, I'd help her film. If the helicopter's coming in her shirt flies up,

I'd hold it down kind of thing and making sure she's safe from the explosive charges and I'd sit her up like stay right here. Behind this iron beam, that wall is gonna blow open soon and the team of seals are going to come through, and you're going to video the whole thing after smoke clears, but don't move from this spot. And I'll tell you when the countdown's coming, you know.

I'd run around and make sure everything else was set. The teams would move up and I'd go and I'd grab it and just hold it behind what we get the best shot possible. I just kind of grew from there. Got to know or more. I appreciate it to work ethic. You know, when I'm walking around, it's the leader of the target.

And all the other role players in OP 4, you know, the seals are gone or the SF guys are gone. And now I'm picking up brass. I'm picking up targets. I'm cleaning up this warehouse building and she's right beside me picking up brass with me, picking up flash bangs off the ground, making sure we leave nothing behind.

And we popped out and all my role players and all my leaders are just telling stories and cracking jokes and hear this camera lady is what following me around working still. I just screamed at him. I'm like, you know, I didn't scream at him. I think I shamed him a little bit with, uh, if I'm picking up brass and you're telling jokes, you're wrong. I go, if the camera lady's picking up brass, you're way wrong. You know, they were like all embarrassed and start picking up shit. You know, it's one of those things things I just started to protect her

on target, you know, and then it kind of fell into she's really cute, you know, and I think, I think, she might correct me, because my memory's shit. I think one night in the context, at Fort Benning, filming the Rangers, we ended up in the context for a long time, staring out a window from the corner, and I think I probably touched her hand with my hand,

like, you know, like'm like, oh, sorry. That's okay. I'm like, oh, really? You know, I think I kissed her for the first time in that context, because it was dangerous and fun, and it kind of went from there. That's cool, man. Yeah, it was, it was an unexpected, but fun.

And she was so nice, I kept thinking, what do you want? You know, like, what do you want? What's the hook here? What's the catch? Because when kept thinking what do you want, you know, like what do you want? What's the hook here? What's the catch? Because when you're nice you want something. Because I wasn't around niceness a lot and so it was attractive but also like what is this, you know, so made it more interesting. How long have you guys been married now? Oh eight years. Let's go, I want to pick up here but let's go back just a little bit to a mod Jordan. Because that sounds like that was kind of the start of what really turned into the Downward

spiral. Am I correct? Yeah, I'd say it was the flow through. It was a good connector after I got out, had I stayed with that, like a lot of guys get out and they look for that thing, they'll go, yeah,. They'll go to contract work. I want to keep going. I Wanted to train and teach I didn't want to keep doing that because a lot of guys that died doing that I'm like, I don't want to just show up in a country and I'm standing next to a former cop and somebody else I don't know who needed to make money to and I'm like, all right, let's go. I don't know you guys. I don't want to do that. Yeah

So when that job came up in a monjorn it was it was one of those, oh, it's on a range, it's teaching, SF guys flow through there a lot, you know, so that'll be fun. I get to see some of the guys again, a train them as they go and die rack and come out and training. And so that was good. And then that turned into a general heralded pulled me aside. He said, hey, we want to start up a new program for the Prince. And we want you to train the Jordanians

to be special forces qualified. So I designed a four month course of, you know, we didn't do the medical stuff other than basic medical, you know, and shooting, heart-humping, you know, land-nav, CQB, and things I got taught them as much as we could through the high-tars, making it legal, obviously. And that lasted a good year and a half

before the money dried up, whoever siphons off the top, whatever the hell. Money dried up and so they turned it into, well, let's teach a Ranger course, you know, but we won't get the barracks, we won't get this and that. You have to buy all this other stuff because the money's lower. So put them up a tensile on the hill,

had everything set up for these hundred Ranger, you know,, want to be used to come through. And then that went away. And then Gary went back from medical reasons and a new general came in. And since I was in charge of all that and a new general came in, he wanted to bring in his old, sorry, major. So they let go of a SAS guy who was expected to take everything over. And then the general called a meeting with everybody. I was like, Oh, Tom, man, you're going to get promoted. You're going to be the dude that runs this whole thing. This will be awesome. You know, I'm like, I just want to run this program. You're going to be the guy that's running all this things. And I went in and sat down and picked up my

notebook, read it, listen to what he had to say. And he said, our company no longer needs you. I appreciate your time with this. Any questions? I closed my book and I said it down. I looked down and I go, I guess one, why? You know, his answer was moving in a different direction. I go, all right. I stood up and turned around because you have everything else on this walked out the door. And there was a third group was there. And I knew a bunch of guys in the third group. When a good friend of mine was there, packed on my shit in the bag real quick. They wanted to turn over from me.

You know, packed on my shit in the bag. I looked at Joey and I go, can you throw this in your eyes? You go get it back from your four bag. He goes, you know it, brother. I go, hey, I have all your training schedule, but it's leaving with me. I'm sorry.

Take it up with the people here. And he's like, what happened? I go, I'm leaving, man, he's, but it's leaving with me, I'm sorry. Take it up with the people here and he's like, what happened? I go, I'm leaving, man, he's freaked out. He was so mad because he knew everything was gonna go to shit. We'd set it all up. Seeing it have finished through time out, brought my stuff back. I got on a plane that night and flew back and I were like,

where'd you go and I go, all my stuff's in a bowl, man. You know, longer needed me. I'm a contractor later, you know. I owe you nothing now. And so I packed up and that's when it kind of really hit me. Like here we go again, I felt like another Admem betrayal, like I'm getting ready to get promoted to the top. And you just let go. And all the guys behind your email and you just sucks, just play sucks, they really blow in it and then it all shut down within about six months.

Damn, it all shut down. And so my days turned into sleeping all day and watching TV all night while snacking, drinking, sleeping all day. And they ended up moving out of my bedroom with my wife and moving into the spare bedroom because it was one of those who kept me up and I got to work and I'm like, okay.

And it just moved into the spare bedroom across from my son's room and I lay in there all day and I got to work and I'm like, okay. And he just moved into the spare bedroom across for my son's room and I'd lay in there all day and then watch TV all night. Until I got that call to go do, hey, we're gonna video this thing for zombie killing and we need some special ops guys, I'm like, what's it pay? Cause now I'm just looking to make some money,

you know, and I'll do anything to do that. How old was your son at this time? Hmm. Five, six, no. What year is this? Wow, he's four or five? Hang on, what? 11?

So yeah, my son was 11. 11 years old? Wow. Yeah. What was your relationship like with your son? I'd tell him I loved him. I think I tried to teach him to many lessons that 11 years old. I think that made me hard on him.

Like if he slept in too late, you know, tried to wake him up. If you slept in again, and then one time I come in there banging pots and pans, you freaked out and woke up. Like, that's what you got to get up. What was I doing, right? I was using the tools that I knew from basic training

and from being violent and aggressive to try to teach him lessons at 11 years old. And though I told him I loved him, I didn't show it really. So I think he picked up on that. And that broke my heart, along with a lot of things coming back from deployments, when he's younger and trying to hold him,

and he freaks out, because he doesn't know him, he's crying and wailing, and I mean, all that painful. Your son doesn't know you, and it's your fault. He felt like a complete stranger. Yeah, yeah. And he felt like you were a complete stranger. Oh, for sure. He's 23 now, and we're still working back into it.

We talked the other day and he's like, Hey, you know, I'm getting better socially and, you know, and I understand the things you went through now. And I appreciated it. And I appreciate everything I'm like, well, you know, we'll just hopefully can work this into another relationship as two adults. And so that's what we're trying to do now.

And it's all my fault for being gone, you know, and I just tell people its choices you make. I couldn't connect with him. He was too young, different, you know, points of view, different places in life. And I never considered that like you're a boy, you're my son. And I'm trying to connect with you. Why didn't I just get down on the floor and lay there and you could have climbed over top of me as the mountain, you know, or just to play with him instead of trying to build some boy who could care for himself early on in life. You know, my mind was, my job is to make you able

to survive alone. And that's how I handled it. So it wasn't very fatherly. It wasn't nurturing from my side. And I don't think you got it from his mother who was probably hurting, obviously, at the time and dove herself into work as well. So I think he was kind of perilous a bit. When did you realize you needed to take on a different role and start to mend that relationship. I think when he came to live with

Gen and I, and then I immediately went off on another training trip like to New Mexico, and I was gone for a bit and he started acting out smashing his computer punch in the wall, cutting a little bit when Gen was home and I'd get phone calls, hey, you're son did this and I'd get him on the phone I'll go, what's your deal, man? Hear him on the phone again and say, flying home and yelling at him to stop, like that'll work. Stop acting like a fool, you know, and still never considered. It was me that made him act out like that and Jen would try to talk to him. You know, your dad does a lot, you don't know what he did, you know, and he out of

he out and he goes, and I don't care. I just wish to work a home depot so I could see him. When I heard that, he didn't care what I did. And I thought, man, it'd be so proud of me. He didn't care. He just wanted a dad. That man, it'd be so proud of me. He didn't care. He just wanted a dad. That's when I knew.

That's really screwed it up. What were... What was your first step to fix it? Leaving him alone. I really tried over and over again on the tax. He went back, he stayed with us for a year. And he went home to visit his mom, which he said he didn't want to, you know,

I'm staying here, I don't wanna go back and I made him go back to visit his mom. He had your mother, you know, go visit your mother and she's probably freaking out. And I had a feeling, I said, you wanna take anything with you? Okay, she changed your mind or anything. He's like, no, no, he left stuff there.

He went home and sometime towards the end, I think we got a call or text. And I think I'm going to stay here and go to school here. I'm sure I wasn't getting talked about nicely back home. I said, all right, we'll pack up your stuff and send it to you. And we did. And I kept texting and calling, texting, calling. It was ignoring it. And I got some advice from Jan and I decided

to let him be for it, but let him determine what he wants to be, but let him know I'm there every now and then I'm not expecting answer, I'm not expecting a solution right away. And that's taken years to get to where he calls me now without, you know, it used to be a text, say happy Thanksgiving and about Christmas, I'd get a thanks dad, you know.

Kind of one of those, like, I'm so busy. Right, and I'm like, oh, I played that game before I understand. To now, he calls me out of the blue. I just wants to chat with me about how you stand with this job and stuff. And it's really, really gotten to my heart and really made me a lot happier. More confident inside that I commend this

and we can get together. Is there anything you wanna say to him right now? Yeah, I'd love him more than anything on this planet. I'm sorry That I wasn't there for him But I'm here now, and I want to be here for him I'm sure he's gonna hear that. I hope so people Let's go back a little bit farther to I think it was 2002 where

Some guys came home and murdered their wives How did that impact you? To be honest Looking back, I don't think I took much stock in it. I think the feelings were, oh man, the unit's going to look bad. That's bad for the unit. It was probably my thought. I'm a little thrown in from all those kids.

Oh my God, you can imagine, but then that's probably the extent of it. Oh man, the you really looks bad, you know, and then those poor kids, and then that's it. I didn't think about, man, what were they going through by and close doors? What was that relationship like for that to happen? I mean, what brings people to that? And that was the first time I think we'd ever

experience anything like that. But still, I didn't take many stock in it. I don't even I couldn't tell you what the unit did about it. I couldn't tell you I just don't know When did that hit you? When did that when did that hit you that okay? Something's going on that we don't know about For me or the unit for the for the for the, I mean, that was in 2002. That was early, you know, I think didn't, you retired in 2013 and 10, you didn't have no 10 stock into it. No. And you know what? Still, they don't put my stock into it. You call organizations and offer up a retreat free. We'll fly you in, you know, just come on.

Just show up. And organizations like like we have our own thing. We do our own thing. And I came from this organization. What thing are you doing there? Because everybody's calling and wanting these, but I offered it to the organization. Like we're doing our own thing. Then another suicide, another thing that goes wrong.

It's like the organizations that are higher up try to hide the negativity so they don't get looked at poorly You know or regulated or whatever would what would happen? So I think we internalize a lot of stuff and hold on to keep it at the lowest level possible Which means we don't run it up at flagpole, which means they don't get the statistics Which mean they're not really aware of what's going on at the higher levels or they're also complicit and they know and they don't do anything about it. So they're still to this day just dipping their toe in the water on what to do with this.

And that's why they're so behind. You know the military, the government, and it's like a big ship in the ocean. Once you turn it, it's gonna take a long time to fully turn around and go in the other direction. Yeah. It's just a big slow process. And then there's money, right?

Then there's money. What? There's just so many aspects to getting out, you know? And so what was, I mean, I've been in the SEAL teams, I've been in the agency, I've interviewed guys from just about every unit there is. And I will say that it's toxic, as toxic as I think the SEAL community is. I think that the Delta community is definitely the most toxic from my vantage point.

And I've interviewed a number of you guys. Nobody seems to leave their own good terms. If they do leave their own good terms, terms go to shit later on. And I'm wondering what is the interaction between you and the unit and some of your old teammates, friends, you know, a lot of us consider them family. What was that like when you left in Jordan and you're hearing the guys everything from The way you left to hearing the guys go on and do more missions and more missions

I mean, I know what that's like to what how did that affect you? And broke me down. It was like a boot in the ass on the well And you know jumping off that fast movement train and you get assisted with a boot in the ass And then you realize that train's gone your tribes gone everything you did is gone And you got to be true feel betrayed at the end and it just it crushes everything you've ever done I felt completely worthless. I felt like a fraud. I feel like I'd let the unit down still You know, I let the unit down man, you know, how dare I? It was never self-directed feelings. You know, I don't think any of us had those out there.

It's all cut throat. It's all comparison when you're out there. How good is that person? I need to do that. I need to be better than that. The competition was relentless and it just drives you through the roof. And I realized every day, I told myself I needed to be better. My mind hears, you're not good enough. And so I just didn't realize down the road that man, I'm putting a lot of pressure on myself. I'm trying to do these things, you know, even though I'm no longer in the unit, I'm still trying to be better than whoever's around me as much as I can't.

And I don't think I was being a good leader. I was running the whole organization, but when you bring in the right people, they run themselves pretty much. I think I was burning out. I was getting tired, you know, probably over drinking. I was over drinking.

It's probably what making me was tired. And I didn't have the love and the job anymore. It was just going downhill. And I just could feel myself sinking into this hole in the earth and just going away and being irrelevant. And I was grasping for relevancy. I was grasping for attention. I was grasping for someone to look at me and say,

hey, you're okay, you're good to go. You know, you're cool. And when you leave, nobody does that. Do I have friends in the unit now? No. Do I know a lot of people from the unit? Yes. Do I have acquaintances? Yes, I have very few friends from the unit that I talk to. I check up on a lot of people. But whether it was the book that came out and people were pissed, for not knowing what was in it, right?

Unless they read it, then they wouldn't be pissed. Or for just the loyalty to the unit, or when the older guys, when they got out, it's just the kind of move on with their lives after a bit. And so they're the transition of you getting out, you're listening to the news, you're texting your boys, is that who's at you, who got killed, you know, was that us, you know, wondering, trying to stay relevant to, you know, no more texting, no more connection, no more, you

know, that that brotherhood has gone, the trains moved on, and you move on with your life, I know the guys move on with their life, to where I don't even want to go back to the unit, I hadn't much for the annual informals and formals. Just sicken my stomach. Just sicken my stomach to go back and think, what's going on? Even going back to Fort Bragg makes me sicken my stomach. I could feel the testosterone. I could feel how I felt back then.

When we go back now, we stay on Southern Pines. I just, I have to get away. I can't be around 82nd dudes, a military guy. I just stacked on top of each other, drink in and just, I can't be around that environment anymore. It's just toxic to me. So I choose to stay away from that and enter into a more calmer, a gentler life.

And that's helped a lot. That's helped a lot and given up who I was and accepting who I can be. I'm not thinking I've peaked, given up who I was and accepting who I can be. I'm not thinking I've peaked, you know, no, I'm gonna peak doing this. I think I should say more lives doing this than I never did working. I think you're right.

At least America's on us, you know. Let's move on, Pest. We had covered talking to Jen, you guys bet. had your first kiss on the Connx box. How romantic. Yeah. It night. It was hot as hell. Yeah. But how did that, I mean, I know that you guys started off pretty rocky. Correct? Very rocky. Like rock stars, parties. I mean, we're probably using each other, you know? I think we were using each other,

not knowing what it would be. She was a part of her too, huh? Oh yeah. She didn't deny anything we were gonna go to. She hung in there actually, hung in there. And that was impressive. You know, she would hang in there with us and still give it to the guys who were doing wrong when they wanted help.

I mean, she wouldn't be one of those wagon fingers at people, but just kind of make you think about what you're doing. That's what attracted people to her to start talking to her about what's wrong with me, by the way. You noticed it, what's up? Why do I feel this way? More like a den mother for the guys, the seals on target, the controllers,

and the seals who stayed around and had seen her before on a different, you know, set up a different iteration. Hey, Jen, they always remember the blonde hair girl, you know, hey, Jen, I was with her, you know, nobody wants to talk to Tom, but that attracted people and her demeanor, and they just start sharing their stories with her to their girlfriends and she got to know them and then they wouldn't come back from deployments. She'd ask around, hey, it's team four, where's Bob? Bob, but Bob didn't make it. Where's Mike? Mike didn't make it. He was a Bob.

It just happened over and over again. Just one of those days, as a relationship grew, she decided, I can't prepare people to go to war anymore. I have to help them come home. So she pulled out of that job and started working on her nonprofit, building it from scratch, not knowing what we were doing. Well, I continued to work so we could eat food while we did it and then started from there, you know, Just trying to help others. It, what, what, at what point do you think you hit your lowest? What point in time did you hit your lowest point? Was it after meeting Jen or was it before?

My wedding night. You, you're wedding night. What's there about it? I screwed that up too. The wedding day was going well, Savannah, Georgia. Our small group of former employees would be there, they were around. We decided to get married on Tybee Island,

get on Tybee Beach at sunset. And we didn't want to be by there. We didn't want our friends there. We didn't want them on the beach. We wanted to get married on Taipei Island, get on Taipei Beach at sunset. And we didn't want anybody there. We didn't want our friends there. We didn't want them on the beach. We wanted a private, we'd link up with you later, you know, and have drinks. So we got dressed early, drove down to Taipei, probably had a drink before we left,

pulled over to another bar that we used to hang out, you know, that shot, pulled down to another bar on the way, probably both of us were nervous as hell. Cause we were planning on getting married overseas somewhere, destination wedding, board, board or something like that. We were looking to buy a house together in St. Louis cause I still lived in Savannah.

And they wouldn't give us the loan for the VA unless we were married. And it was supposed to close on Monday, we'll have a blast, so I had to go to a courthouse and get a marriage certificate on a Friday. So the next Saturday we could get married and then Monday we would close kind of deal. It was so ended up all being rushed, so there was stress there.

And I learned that later, you know, the stress of changing jobs, the stress of buying a home, the stress of getting married all at one time, you know, it was just a all-piled honest. So we had another drink and then we went on down for the ceremony. There was a photographer and a priest or a chaplain, whatever who it was down there. Beautiful sunset ceremony. I'd been raining before that.

So the beach had cleared. We're the only ones on the beach and the rain cleared up and it's nice, little orange sunset. We got some beautiful photos got married. Then we met our friends. And that's when I, you know, I don't remember a lot of it. I ended up talking to one of our other employees' wives on I didn't even remember that.

I didn't even consider what was happening. It's just another day for me, right? Just another day. And I ended up getting drunk. And I didn't do a first dance with my wife, all the traditional things that she wanted. I was like, whatever, whatever. What is that? I didn't do a first dance of my wife all the traditional things that she wanted. I was like, whatever, whatever, whatever. What is that? I didn't consider it. She got mad, obviously.

Started to tell me about it. And of course, when you shame me or tell me I'm wrong, you know, I go straight to rage. So I was screaming at her as we're walking home. We enter the lobby. I don't remember this. I heard it later that one of the person people in the lobby are like, are you okay? Because I'm yelling so low because I don't kind of care anymore, right? I don't care why this. I heard it later that one of the people in the library like, are you okay? Cause I'm yelling so loud cause I don't kind of care anymore. Right? I don't care why I'm at it. I don't care what I'm saying. I'm talking, listen.

Made her well, I went to the bedroom. I think I threw a makeup case across the room, screaming and yelling and I ended up waking up on the floor the next morning. And I'm like, oh shit. That probably didn't go well. And she came out of the bathroom, said on the bed. And she said, well, she's holding our paperwork.

We hadn't turned it into the courthouse check as it was a weekend. She sent me a hold on to this. I may not turn it in. I'm going to fly home. We're going to think about this and this may not last. And I crushed me inside. that man, I blew this. I had this and blew this one in a day, basically. In this day, I blew it again.

And that was my worst day in the start of my best life. Because that's what I made. That's what I made the promise to do something. That's when I was below rock bottom. That's when I realized I had crushed the person that I love so much and it knew that I loved her that deeply. And I crushed her and I saw in her face. I felt like nothing. That was my worst.

How long did she go home for? Well, she lived there. So she told me on a Sunday we sat on a bench on the beach and we talked a long time. And she said, I'm just going to go home, think about this, and I'll let you know. And then she, it wasn't long. I don't know if it was Sunday.

She told me that she probably wouldn't, but she would think about it or if she let me sit on that for a couple of days. And she finally told me you have to get help where I'm going. You have to do something or I'm leaving. And then when my back in the corner, I came out fighting. You know, I went and found a counselor that day, Monday, I think that Monday, I made it appointment and it was Eric Clapton's old coach or whatever. And he knew, I mean, he knew what was up.

And for the first time I was told, I had post-traumatic stress, I wasn't an alcoholic, I was a problem drinker. You know, I was a, that it could be, I could be helped and here's some tools to manage your anger because it was all anger management for me. That's what I thought. And so that started me picking up these little tidbits

of what to do if I started to get angry. And I'd go back to work and my coworkers are like, they always talk, don't talk to Tom before 11. He's grumpy, you know, just don't talk to him. And I was because I was drunk the night before and I'm hung over at work. And I'm about 11, you know, the day I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I'll drink a good night after

promising I'll never drink again. And they start noticing a little change, you know, it's like talking to Jen, like, what's up with Tom? He's coming up with these weird sayings and not getting mad and he's a little bit different. And it felt good, it felt better, you know? So Jen obviously decided to stick around and then she got busy, okay, what's next?

What's next? You're not done yet, you know, I'm like, I'm all better now, right? I'm not angry, but she knew I wasn't So we went into the trans transadental meditation, right? And that was just a little woo-woo-woo-woo for me at the time a little early for that But it worked it helps slow me down again. It helped bring me back in again And then I started doing other modalities which helped me sleep a little more, you know managing my drinking from drinking at all to

To working into where we make rules, you know when you were drinking I Want to I want to go into all the things that Helped you because it's it's you know, it's like a puzzle Putting it all together and it all works in combination, I think but um I and combination, I think. But I... People don't understand that are listening. I understand all the guys, the similar backgrounds,

they understand families understand civilians, they don't understand, and that's the majority of this audience. So what was just a normal day in the life of Tom Satterley? How much were you drinking? What pills were you on? What time were you taking? What was the cycle?

Wow, I don't know how many percussets I was on. I was in so much pain that I would take them. And it was in a culture of, I'd have jars of perksets. You can get them, you know, and I took the biggest ones I had. And you're in that culture of, oh, my back hurts, say, man, you got one of those pills, right?

You know, everybody's back hurts when you have perksets. And it felt good to take them because I was in pain every minute of every day. When I take a perkset, it was, oh, what's different? Oh, I'm not in pain. Oh, I'm happy, right? I'm high. I, you know, then I drink on top of that.

So I take perksets all day. And then alcohol would start. It was early. For pain and for For paying an interest, it felt me, made me feel better. Know me out? Yeah. And I took more than I should have. That's for sure.

I'd forget I took perkset. I want to feel a little better. You need that bump, you know? Smoke and marijuana, I was drinking from as early as in the days I could to as long as I could, or when I had to end it, because I just don't remember,

you know, I did the past out, or one of those catching a cab the next day, and going around and looking everywhere you've been, checking receipts to find your car, because at least you were smart enough to take a cab home that night. Just not knowing where your car was, and it just started hitting me.

Man, I do have a problem. If I got a chase, receipts the next day to fund my car. What's happening to me? Another perg set. It was a cycle that was accepted in that culture, pushed in that culture. And then sleeping pills. Oh, yeah. Goblin of ambient and volumes.

Yeah. That's a counter at night. I'll probably take two, three ambient at night going. That's four or six, you know, four, eight, 12 hours. I'd pop two volume. I'd wake up and chew another ambient, hoping it would hit me quicker and just laying in bed with my eyes open. Measure bought couldn't sleep. Roll over close Measurable, I couldn't sleep.

Roll over, close my thoughts. Just miserable, couldn't sleep. You know, I was drunk. I'm not just rolled there and lay there until I'm hungover. And then probably about four, five in the morning, I'd close my eyes, but I finally wake up seven, just miserable, go to work. If I wasn't late and just not talking to 11. Then go get some lunch in me and like,

ah, time's back, you know. Pergisets make me happy. And that went on for a long time. Pergisets started a long time ago from the surgeries. They drink. They don't pick me up in the morning. Adderoles, cocaine, anything like that. No, I, uh,

in Jordan, I'd have some coffee, which I didn't drink coffee, and I'd dump a little collou in there, on the way to work. And I don't even know why, because I didn't do anything. You know what I mean? As much as I drank a little bit,

I think it was the, I'm having a little drink, you know, so that's good. Or maybe it was the party time, even though I was working. It was like a good time that we're gonna have here. And then I realized, I can't do this as a leader in front of these guys because it creates an environment where it's okay for everyone else to do this, you know?

How long did you stay in that cycle for? How many years? 10, 10 years, maybe more. Ten's a good number. Yeah, I'd fight you a little higher if I had to. That's a long time. It took a long time for awareness. And then when the awareness came, it took a long time for acceptance. There was more denial than acceptance. And then a slow acceptance speed. And then more awareness of more things. And then more acceptance. And then the slow process of what do I do? And rolling that and which one do I do and what's working

and who's just selling something they say works to just deciding that why shouldn't I do everything I can possibly do and never stop doing it until I get where I need to be. If not, I'm going to quit. And then that's where I die. When I quit trying, that's where I would have died back then. If your wife Jen has kids too. Yes. When did you get introduced to them and how are those relationships back then? I think they were four and six, five and seven-ish, and when they're younger, very accepting. It's just a friend, Mommy's friend, you know,

and then there's Daddy still, you know, they visit Daddy, Mommy's friend, visit Daddy, Mommy's friend. Never spoke poorly of their father, it's their father, you know. And then when they were younger, it was like, we're having fun and then we're together and then as they get older and understand, I think the pain hees in on them.

The divorce moves in on them and they start understanding more up to the point where I wrote my book and she wrote her book and I'm pretty sure, well, I know they read them. And then as children, you know, they have to work through that. And some of that comes out in anger when they're in trouble. Some of that just came out in sadness and other issues. And they had to work through that, right? We had to get them to work through that with coaches and counselors as well along the way, knowing that we couldn't, you know, even though we do this, you know, we can't do this here.

We have to have someone else do this. To where they grew up, grew through it and understood, you know, all right, there's a lot of people out there divorced. This isn't the end of life. I can make it through this. My mom and my dad still are friends and still talk all the time. They're still very cordial. I mean, they're friends.

I mean, he's a nice guy. I mean, I consider him a friend. I know him and he's a nice guy, you know? I mean, he just, nothing bad about that. I'm talking about your relationship with those kids. Yeah, I was hands off for a bit. I knew when I was. Were you in the cycle?

When you met him? Oh, yeah, deep. How long were you in the cycle after you met him? Six, seven years. So, tell about the age old. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. six, seven years. So, I'll tell you about the age of... Yeah. Yeah. To mean her son, have a good relationship, and mean her daughter are getting into a good relationship. I heard her more, I think. Also, just her age, she's a daughter of a man, and here's a new man. She's smart. She picks up things and she's, she knows how to

err it and using it, you know, when you got a divorce, you can introduce him too soon and it kind of affected me and I'm like, how much is this? Are you reading books? How much is this? Is a true feeling coming out? Either way, it's true, you know, and it was eye opening. So I was a lot of hands off knowing how I could react, going through Jen, like, hey, relate this message, right? And putting her in this stressful, you know, rockin' her heart place, going to tell her her kids this and that.

And, but I had to stay out of that. I know I couldn't manage it, you know, one day when it's Thanksgiving or no, it's Luke's birthday. Grandma and Grandpa are over, kids around the table. It's very stressful for me. Happy times are very stressful for me back then because I was jealous of it. I wished I could have that and I didn't. And so I tried to manage it. I guess it's the only way to look at it. And so Claudine Lugo, you know, the brother and sister, they go at it. And I think Claudine was getting a little antsy,

a little amped up a little bit. I looked at her like, this is Luke's birthday. Can we just have Luke's birthday, you know, or whatever it is? And it starts ramping up and they're fighting again. And I was like, yeah, you know, Jesus. And I said something, like, can't we just, you know, and everybody in the room's like nervous.

I didn't say anything that bad. I think everybody felt me welling up and getting red, turning into that, you know, my call sign crawler instead of Tom. And it was one of those, I realized, I do get big, I do change, you know, I don't want to say things like this in front of the family. And I kind of just removed myself. And for a while, I would always just stay very quiet on holidays, you know, yeah, I'm like, I fun, you know, and try to be there of not realizing that it's obvious when you're not happy. You're just sitting there for the moment. To just finally easing into it later in life and letting it happen when it happens versus trying to force it.

And I actually think on this last vacation we took, it really was a bonding trip because I kept my mouth shut, completely shut. Did the things I needed to do and walked away from the things I didn't wanna do, so they could have fun doing them, if they wanted to go shopping. I'm like, ah, I'm gonna go over here and watch street performers.

And we have that relationship, we're okay, well, I don't need to be together. You go have fun here, I'm gonna go watch these guys juggles, knives, and swords. And when you're done, let me know, we we have that relationship. We're okay. We all don't need to be together. You go have fun here. I'm going to go watch these guys juggles, knives and swords. And when you're done, let me know. We'll find each other. And to the point where I, to tell you how life-changing was for me that trip, was cloudy with having conversations with me.

And I remember staring her in the eyes And having that conversation and realizing as we were having it I'd never looked her in her eyes for longer than a second It's always at the ground like in shame for me And I got nervous because oh my god looking her eyes. There's a too long as weird. Oh my gosh Because it was new to me and I remember telling you about later like oh so, oh, it was so weird, I didn't know what to do. But it made me so happy that we were connecting and having this conversation about something in London. I don't even remember what it was.

And it was just, we started talking more and I was listening more. She was listening to me more. And I knew she was listening because she's always been a listener with no information that she's listening unless you know her enough. But she's always listening.

So that time I knew she was listening to me. And I thought, all right, this is a start of something really good now. That's good to hear, man. Yeah, it feels good. How many people other than Jen were telling you that something needs to change? Zero. She's the only one. What do you think that is?

I think people were afraid of me. I think people didn't want, family didn't want to say it. Family didn't know. I don't think my family knew. And I think I hid it a lot from people. And I know my brothers never bring it up because it's a mirror. It's a mirror for them.

So when gendered, it was obviously out of love, out of strength, out of stubbornness. And it was a shock to me to hear it straight up, hard hitting something's wrong with you. And if you don't start now, I'm leaving. I won't subject myself to this because I'm a human too. You know, I don't need to be treated this way. So that kind of forced me, thankfully, and to take an action.

Do you think there's anybody else out there that could have called you on your bullshit that would have made you change? That would have made you start looking for answers, looking for help? Yeah, there were people I would have listened to. Who? My former boss at the company we hope co-found. Had he said something, you know, just knowing who I am, I would have taken it as a work thing. And I would, oh, shit, I'm acting this way at work. I'm at Luzard, right?

Not home life, but work life. Had he said something directly, you know, I found out later he aired out things to Jen, who would air out things to me who I thought was coming from her. And then later, he was like, no, he was saying those to me, to you and I was like, what the hell's wrong with that dude, right? Why would he say something to me?

Man up. Or I'm not gonna punch you. And if I do, it won't hurt that long, right? Just tell me. I mean, just man up and tell your friends, yeah, they need some help, you know? but we don't want to hold that mirror up because then we would have to go get help. And it happens a lot with people that reach out for help. Immediately they're connected to help. And then they freak out. And then they don't make the calls.

And then I have to cut them away. And then you get the hateful emails about how you're quack and your system doesn't work. I'm like, no, nothing works if you don't do it. You know, bicycle lay there forever unless you pedal the damn thing. So the accountability is not there. The awareness of I need help, you call your email, but the accountability is not there.

They don't want it admitted. They don't want to put in the work. And so they shy away from it and make all the excuses. You know, I'm fine. It's a crack. I'm gonna go help other people now. I'm like, oh no, you know, I think helping veterans is what will help me.

And I'm like, okay, I started out in a soup kitchen, right? Helping people after I did the anger management while I was doing it. It opened my eyes to other people and humans that needed help. I just thought, oh, you need food, go get a job, man. You know, I saw the human and those people and it really opened me up. I knew I can't go help people, right? I wouldn't

take advice, marriage advice from somebody who was never in a relationship. I wouldn't take financial advice from somebody who was broke all the time, right? So I wouldn't want another veteran taking advice from me or any other veteran that's broken at the time because I'm going to get bad advice and that bad advice can take me down the wrong hole. So I would ask other people who are helping other people or want to help other people to get help first, right? At least check it out. Go talk to licensed clinical social worker, start talking honestly and then find out if you have a problem because if you tell yourself you don't and you're all fit as a fiddle, you're probably not. I have a room of 300 people and I'll be talking on stage and how many people have a perfect

relationship. No hand ever goes up. Okay, how many of you are in marriage counseling? Two hands might go up. All right, for the other 298, why aren't you encountering? Why are you going to wait till it's broken to maintain something? They teach us that. If it's broken, it's more expensive, takes longer to fix it versus if you maintain it,

it lasts longer, and it's always stay stronger. So that awareness of, oh, I don't have to work on my relationship or myself until I'm really, really broken or the divorce is coming. It's too late then, right? It's a lot harder to get back up. So start now. Just do the check-ins. And make sure your relationship's in the right way and make sure your head's in the right space.

It's good advice. There's one more thing that I want to hit that's a dark subject subject and that's... I know you had at least one suicide attempt. Are there more? How many? I don't know. Did you always have a planned out?

No, it was anger-based. What would trigger it? Shame. From something I did. From hurting Jan. Yeah, and hurting Jan in any way would, would, would, when put into my face, when brought up, or when I calm down and realize, I would feel so horrible that I wanted to get away from it so fast that I started telling myself milliseconds, you're worthless, your time here's over, you've done your job,

you're worried, that's all you're here to do, don't ruin this woman's life. That day we were working together, it was all right, I was feeling down, you know, my, I wasn't talking to my son, I was trying, I was divorcing. I knew that. That was going to be another casual, when cash went fall for somebody else other than me. I knew what was coming. And I'm still trying to work. And we wrapped up that day at two friends in the back seat, right? We've been riding for a while together. And they didn't know. They didn't know I'd been down that day. They jumped out of the car in the parking garage. You'll see at the bar like always, you know. And Jen, I found out later knew that day, all that day that I was off. I wasn't the

jovial self that I normally was. I wasn't charismatic. I was just kind of quiet. That whole day was my son's thoughts and my son were weighing on me. Not the fact that I was just kind of quiet. That whole day it was my son's thoughts and my son were weighing on me. Not the fact that I was getting divorced at thoughts of what a shitty father I'd been. And here I am again, right? Leaving his mother. And we got to that garage and my two friends took off

and then Jen, I normally helped her care stuff and she's starting to grab her bags and I said, I gotta make a phone call. You know, on the parking garage, I'm gonna make a phone call. And I just said that to get alone. It's needed to be alone. As soon as she turned the corner down the hallway, you know, from the parking garage, I pulled my pistol out.

And when I charged it, you know, I was looking around like I'm getting trouble. And I'm gonna be seen. And then I remember thinking, the poor people in the rental car company, that finds in this car. And I remember thinking, I hope I do this right, because I don't want to end up, you know, just screwed up and have somebody have to take care of me and wipe my mouth all the time.

And I just, my phone starts vibrating and ringing, and I'm ignoring it. And I'm just, I'm not thinking ignoring it. I'm not thinking of war. I'm not thinking of anybody that died. I'm just thinking of what a loser I was. And I was hoping I could do it. And the phone kept going off and I finally picked it up to look like, God. And all I saw was a bunch of stuff, a bunch of missed calls.

And I saw something, not in your late. And when I saw your late, I went right back to work. Like I'm never late. I'm never, ever late. You know, plus or minus 30 seconds anywhere in the world, right? And I'm like, I'm never late. Clear my pistol, put it back in my bag and grab all this stuff and we're running down, you know,

like, what am I late for? And she's like, well, let's just go have a seat, you know, talk. We went and sat in the corner. Everybody else was getting drunk over here. We went and sat in a dark corner and just talked for a long time. I didn't tell her. I didn't want to tell her. I thought, I'll never do this again.

I was crazy. I was terrified me. It literally terrified me. Thinking of how close I was. And I think two months later, I told her, and it really struck her, it really struck her. And that might have been the breaking of her wanting to help people.

It might have been like one of the, one of the things that pushed her over the top. And then there's been times, I mean, obviously, I got to work after our wedding night, but, you know, it's a long process. You got to be diligent, you got to be patient, and I wasn't patient, I wasn't getting well quick enough. Jen was new to it, so every time I did one thing, she wanted me to do another, and then she'd ask another, and to me I'm hearing I'll never be good enough. She keeps wanting me to do more, which means I'm not getting there, and I just

fights would break out over, I don't know, I couldn't tell you what they were for. There was stupid. They're all stupid. But I would go to shame embarrassment. And then when I end it, you know, screw this, I'll just die. And I'm banging a pistol off my head. I've grabbed it from underneath the couch or underneath the mattress before, going to the lock box and just smacking it off my head, just banging off my head screaming, I just want to do this right in front of her. Never considering what it was doing to her. I didn't care about me, and I cared about her, and I hated me for hurting her. She said, cycle, you know, how do I break this cycle, not on the bad side?

And we just kept going. We just kept going and her patience just kept pushing and pushing in her kindness and love, no matter how much I pushed her away. She came back strong and she kept offering different alternatives and I just kept taking them. Even while we were going through this, people on Facebook and social media were like, you guys are the best couple, blah, blah, blah, you're the pit of me in relationships. And I'm like, don't you know what Facebook is? Take Facebook and plot to your life. We don't get on there and go, man, we're fucked up, we fight on, start, we fight all the time, you know,

yeah, we screw each other. I mean, we kind of do now, and we did in our books to open people's eyes, but back in the time, it's just happiness, right? Everybody does happiness, the good side. So I think that's hurting people not realizing there's a bad side too, and that side needs the attention. The good side is getting attention,

the bad side needs attention. That's And that side needs the attention. The good side is getting attention. The bad side needs attention. That's where we need to pay attention. So we're honest about everyone. Our life isn't like you see. And we post other things now. We talk about other things now, but be aware that our life is not perfection. We're not those people that get on stage

and talk about the things we're not doing. And we're also not those people who are perfect. I think we were told, I know I was told one one time we were told that I'm going to video you guys talking to each other and fighting and I'm going to play it back for you. So you realize what you say on stage you don't do. Thinking you think Bernat Brown's perfect, doesn't feel shame. I think Tony Roberts doesn't feel like shit sometimes. You know, or does counter to what he preaches, we all do. But we get back on the horse and we try our hardest to get back, you know, in the race. So there's a lot of judgment out there, and I'd rather there be more curiosity as to how to get here.

I think we should take a break. Then when we come back, we'll bring Jan on. We want to get her side of this. That'll be the better side. Alright, thanks. Janon, I want to get her side of this. That would be the better side. Alright thanks. You've heard the buzz about ketone supplements and how they can boost your workouts by helping your body use fatty acids for fuel. I take a shot of HVM and ketone supplement before my morning workout. It's focused energy. It's not an energy drink though. It's like a feeling of

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Appreciate it. So we've had a very extensive conversation with your husband and we just got through one of his many suicide attempts where you actually are the person that's that stopped that that saved him and so I like to hear your perspective of that day. Sure. Actually, yeah, let's go. Let's start with that day.

We had known each other for a few weeks at this time. Just kind of started dating-ish. We were so work-focused and got to know each other that way. And that day, he's normally starts off rough in the morning. I think he probably talked about. People don't talk to Tom before noon kind of thing, but this day was a little bit different. He stayed in that space throughout the entirety of the day.

So not focused. He's so tired at work. I mean, this guy was flawless, what it seemed like on parrots. And he was missing things. He was messing up. So he just seemed like on parrots. And he was missing things, he was messing up. So he just seemed like this isn't the normal tom that I'm used to seeing.

Did I think he was gonna try to take his life, of course not? I just noticed something was off, something was different. And quite honestly, it was like 110, and can't know how, it was just, and we're smoked out with all of, they're all kidded up in all of their gear. So he said, I'm gonna make a phone call. And I thought, and like 110 parking garage, like this really is not adding up now.

He's got a hotel room all to himself. He could go in that room and make a phone call. Why is he hanging out in this parking garage? So I walked away from the car. I went with the other two green braze and halfway to the room, they were helping me carrying my photo gear. The one guy had set it down and he's like,

hey, I'm just gonna go shower real quick and I'm just gonna go down the bar right away. I'm not even gonna wait for everyone. I'm just gonna, you should just come down after. And I said, you know what? I'm gonna try to get a hold of Tom. And then I'll just wait for him and come down with Tom. I'm okay, sure. So I went to the room and I started unpacking my gear

and just everything inside my spirit was like, something's not right. So I started texting him. You wanna meet me, you know, Teddy said he's gonna go to the bar early. Let's just bar early. Let's just go early. Nothing. He's usually very, very responsive.

No, they're text, nothing, no, they're text, nothing. And by this point, I thought he's not on a phone call and knew something was off. I was just about ready to go to the parking garage. And for some reason, I don't even know why. I told him he was late. He wasn't late. I mean, we had hours late. No, we had hours before this meetup.

And so people asked me why. I said that to him or how did I know? It was divine. I know that now that it took something like that to stop him. You guys had only known each other for a couple of weeks up to this point in time. You're busy as shit. You have a bunch of camera gear.

You're trying to manage an entire film project for what the US Navy and this is what's on your mind. This is what's sticking. For sure. For sure, humans, first. Always. Just some guys gotta make a phone call that you know and for a couple weeks.

And that's in your head. It was in my head. It was in my head. I had, I had suicide attempts when I was younger, 14, 15. I don't know if it was something just, we joke that our trauma was attracted to each other. And I don't know if it was instinct, I'm assuming it was God stepped in and said, tell him he's late, because that's what stopped him.

And people, you know, the hardest thing he's ever told me was, you're my savior, you save me. And that broke me. He told you that. Mm-hmm. And I said, if I save you, I can also destroy you. Like, I'll miss it one time. You won't get that text from me that says you're late.

And so there was this tremendous weight for years that I thought I could keep him alive. And I watched him bang guns off his head. I was on my knees begging him not to pull a trigger, But I could keep him alive. And I watched him bang guns off his head. I was on my knees begging him not to pull a trigger, literally thinking I'm going to watch. How would that start? In the stupidest way possible every single time. And that's what makes it feel so insanely crazy.

Is that this is over nothing. This is over a cup in the sink. This is over sacs left on the staircase. This is over a cup in the sink. This is over a sock, slept on the staircase. This is something that has embarrassed you. Just this big of going, hey, you're overreacting. I'm overreacting now. You're telling me. Now you've embarrassed you. I've shamed you. But that's not the conversation we're having. It's still your shitty mom or your shitty wife, you know, into the cycle of, I am going to destroy you and I'm going to take you down to nothing.

And then once you would do that, it would be this aha moment of, what have I done? Complete shame, embarrassment, pain. And I think the worst part is I could see it. I could see it on his face that he was in so much pain what he just did to me. And so immediately I would go into repair mode. Don't worry about it. It's fine. We'll talk to a therapist tomorrow. Just get some air. Just go for a drive. Go punch a bag. Call a friend, you know, because I knew he was this close many, many times. And there was a time where he had his finger on the trigger just once.

I mean, you would see him actually holding a pistol. To his head. Banging it on his head. And Tyr's saying, let me just do this. How many times did that happen, do you think? Six, seven? I mean, I got to the point where I started hiding the guns. Soon as I could feel something was off that day,

and then that would piss them off. Where are my guns? Well, I don't think you should have them. You know, last week I saw you banging it on the side of your temple, asking me to give you permission to end it. I'm never going to do that. Never going to let you. I'm going to fight for you, fight for us until the end.

And so I think the last time I literally was on my knees, we were in the bedroom and he always told me, and I knew this for 10 years, you never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to pull it. And so all these other times he had the gun in his hand, but this time he put his finger on the trigger. And soon as I saw that, I thought it was done, truly. I thought I was going to watch him pull it. And I know many other unit wives that had to watch that.

So I literally thought in that second, like this is my time. And this is where I watch him die. What stopped him? I fell to my knees, literally was grabbing him by his pants. I knew not to try to take the gun. I was scared to touch it that he might react. And I think when he saw me fall to the ground, just sobbing, begging him not to. He's like this recollection, like Tom came back, because Tom's often gone when this would happen.

He goes somewhere else. Crawler came forward and the guy I knew and love was gone, just gone. His eyes would turn black. And then they would turn blue again. And when I saw him see me on the ground that way, he felt to the ground to put the gun to the side and he said, I'll never do that to you again. And he didn't. That was it. That was it. Where are the kids when this is all happening?

Thank God never at our house. And truly thank God. For some reason, he wouldn't really start it when they around. I think he knew they're my hard line. They're not gonna see that. They're not gonna be put into a situation like I had growing up and you'll be gone

before they will be gone. So he was always very careful around my kids, always guarded hands off to the point where I'm like, you could come out at the bedroom at times. Like you don't have to lock yourself away. But thank God none of that ever happened in front of them. But I know the many military families that it does. Many. What did it feel like? None of that ever happened in front of them. But I know the many military families that it does, many.

What did it feel like? When did he tell you about that one day in the parking lot? It was like, it was this odd night, like we were out probably drinking. And he's like, hey, you know that night? That you, you know, we went and said, because it was kind of like the first night we sat by ourselves, like isolated ourselves from the group.

He came into the bar, I could tell. He just was disheveled still. I didn't look right. And so I said, why don't we just go like sit in the corner? Because it was loud and, you know, that we were working with a SEAL team. So we had the green berets that we were contracting with, all the SEALs were kind of like,

so it was starting to become really chaotic and full. So like, at that point, I'm like like we can go over there and nobody will notice. Like we've talked away. So that's what we did and that night we really got to know each other. So it was a couple months later it's like you know that night when we talked away I'm like yeah you're off that day. He said you saved my life that day. And I said I mean I kind of laughed like ha ha I do what? He said no I sat there with a day. And I said, I mean, I kind of laughed like, ha ha, I do what? He said, no, I said, they're with a gun. And your text telling me I was late, stop me.

And I don't know if I believed him at first, like it seemed too big. Like took me a minute to grasp that. And then it took me to a very, very scared place for many years. I didn't want to be a savior. I didn't want that pressure. But I love this man so deeply. There's no way I was going to let go of him, either.

It dinner two nights ago, I guess, now. You would mention the first time that you met Tom, who sounds like a complete disaster. And so I'd like you to tell that story. Then I actually called him a seal. I could see how they would turn into a disaster. I knew very little about special operations. My dad served Air Force, but he was out before I was born.

My brother left when I was 10 for military. So of course, my family had a deep love and in very patriotic, but I didn't know anything. My dad never talked about my brother, never talked about it. So when I was called up to do this job, I said, no, I don't want to do that. I'm working in fashion, I'm doing sports, I'm doing want to do that. I'm working in fashion, I'm doing sports, I'm doing all this other stuff. I'm in commercial advertising, I'm fine. I don't need to go work with special operations

a bunch of like testosterone dudes that I don't even know what they do. And by the way, I've never held a gun in my life. Like, I don't know anything about this. You're gonna do better. I even gave them names, like call this guy. Call this guy. Call this guy. Former Ranger was my client, so I was volant told.

Like, no, you're gonna go on this one. And then you don't have to go back. Like, you could move back onto another project. So, I kinda didn't wanna be there. I was like, let's get this over with kind of thing. I was walking down the hall and the guy who owned this company was a former unit member. And so he stops like really dramatically. And he said, have you ever seen Black Hawk Down?

And I'm like, yeah, it's been a minute. Like it was 2001, right? And he's like, yeah. Side note, my former place that I used to work at were all guys. It was the only female designer there, and Black Hawk Down had come out that year. So constantly on our big, big, big screen, like our movie theater side screen,

we were reached to our commercials, it would play 24-7. So like, I had this thing in me when he was like, do you know Black Hawk Down? I'm like, yeah, I'm really well versed in it. Yeah, I know that movie. It's great. You used to have to tell them,

can you turn it down? Cause the clients are hearing gunfire in the background and nobody's shooting guns here. So I kind of made a little joke like, yeah, I know it and you're about ready to go meet two of the guys that were, I almost like, oh my gosh, wow. My mind's like, Eric Bano was in that. Like I start thinking about all these really cute guys.

They were like, oh, okay. I'm gonna go meet some of the guys from Black Hawk down. And I said, he said, you know it Delta forces, right? Cause these guys were not in the Ranger group but in the Delta group. And I go, yeah, that's like a Navy SEAL, right? And he stopped me and he goes, excuse me. And I go, I go, yeah, that's like a Navy SEAL, right? And he stopped me and he goes, excuse me. And I go, I go, what?

Like the army SEALs, right? And he said, we'll have a history lesson and I'll catch you up after this. He never did. But it was his way of telling me, like, you don't know what you're talking about, better zip it. And it took his advice, because for about three and a half years,

I kept my lips zipped after that. But I walked in the room and Tom's sitting there and he's like way over, way kind of ruddy red from drinking all the time and I looked down and I was like, oh, that's not Eric Mana or one of the other boys from Black Hawk down and then I thought, wait, it's been like 10 years since that, 20 years since the actual event.

Yeah, these guys are gonna be older now. And there was a haunted, so it was at a place where there was a haunted hotel and a St. Asylums in Indiana, ironically, where he was born, is where we met. And I said, hey, like, let's go check out this haunted house, this like unit guy, like he cares. And he's hey, like, let's go check out this haunted house. This like, unit guy like he cares. And he's like, nah, it's okay.

My God, hard past that. And so I don't know, and I didn't think much of him. He didn't think much of me clearly. Didn't even know who I was. So it really wasn't until we started working on a few iterations where he actually started talking because he was super quiet at first and I think he said his awesome first line was I friended you on LinkedIn. Yeah, cool. Congratulations.

Congrats. I'm glad we're friends. What was it about Tom that they really got your attention? Here's a bad boy. Be quite honestly. I mean, I had spent many years as a party girl. A lot of untreated trauma I realize now. But I went into mom mode for a very long time and I was the total soccer mom. And it felt inauthentic, I guess, in some ways.

Never about my children. I adore my children. I get a lot of shit for how much I adore my children. Sock or mom, and it felt inauthentic, I guess, in some ways. Never about my children. I adore my children. I get a lot of shit for how much. I adore my children. But I think being raised in an abuse of household, I overcompensated the other way. But when I went out with Tom, I wasn't mom anymore. I was back to Jen and back to reckless party girl.

And I had a lot of fun, quite honestly, I had a lot of fun. When this is almost contradicting of itself, you know, because you fixed them, we were a big part of fixing them. So, but you're having fun being back in that mindset. So you had to sacrifice a lot because you're having fun

to get him better. So at what point did you decide we both need to clean this shit up a little bit? Before our wedding. Was it because of Tom that you decided it was good? Yeah, because I lived this total crazy, weird, double life for a very, for the, I embedded for about three and a half years as combat camera on state side missions.

So for those three and a half years, I'd go away for two weeks, come back for two weeks, go away for four weeks, come back for a week, go away for four weeks, come back for a week, gone for two weeks back for a week. So I was constantly moving to either a different team, a different RMT, different training cycle, and then I started to get why the guys wanted it and wanted to go back,

because then that started to happen to me. I'd be home for three days and I'm like, all right, what teams got, even if I wasn't assigned to that team, I would call my'm like, all right, what teams got, you know, even if I wasn't assigned to that team, I would call my boss like, hey, you want combat camera? Yeah, I just said, you just got home. Nope, put me on it. So you got a deck into it. I did for sure. I ate the camaraderie, the embracing the suck, like, because it sucked. I mean, we're in warehouses with, I don't know. It feels like 150 degrees and you're there for 16 hours and everybody hates life. And then you all have a great time and high

five after. And it felt good to be part of something bigger. It felt good to be part of something that I felt like these guys are making a difference. And I'm super, super, super small part of it. But I'm part of it of these guys going out and doing what nobody I'm super, super, super small part of it, but I'm part of it, of these guys going out and doing what nobody else wants to do, by the way. I spent my life as a creative. And at that point at 38, I'm like, I got to be a creative. I got to be an art director and a filmmaker,

instead of going off to war, because I could have gone off to war and done none of these things. But I got to do my job because these men and women are doing the really shitty hard jobs. So I became super appreciative. All the Hollywood stuff, all the lies that are told about you guys started on peeling for me, bit by bit by bit. And I'm like, they've got it so wrong, so wrong. These guys are humanitarian.

They're meant to be treated like and talked about like they're monsters. Humanitarians. They're the best and the strongest of the strongest. So I quickly wanted to be part of that tribe. I saw the love of the brotherhood, frankly, and I was brought into that just in a little bit. It felt good. You had mentioned at dinner,

it sounded like there was an exact moment where it all switched tooria, and it was a green beret that said, you tell it. Oh gosh, which one? The... I'm where are humanitarians? Oh, God, you tell it. Oh gosh, which one? I'm worthy of humanitarians. Oh God, I love that. He really, so I didn't know the mission of the Green Brace. Like, oh, they're door kickers, right?

Like, that's what they do. They go in, they're bad asses, they fight it when they come home. And when I started working with them, they're like, there's the chaplain, there's these people and these, and they started going through the different teams. And I'm like, what do you guys do?

Like what's your mission set? And he said to free the oppressed, you know, we, we go in as nation builders, we were humanitarian. And I looked at him, I said, what? He's like, yeah, we build nations. We go in and we help the oppressed. We free them. That's our job. I said, nobody's ever put it that way to me. You always hear fight for freedom. But no one had ever put it that way. We're the humanitarian's

going in, trying to stop the bad guys to build the new so that the good guys in that community can thrive. And that's what you guys do. Pretty cool. Pretty cool house switch to worry like that. Oh, yeah, I became the biggest fan girl. I mean, the amount of respect and love that I developed for our warfighters and their families. I mean, it took me a while for families. So I spent three and a half years working with teams. But then I started quite honestly,

it came with a seal who said, can you talk to my wife? Here's her phone number. And it didn't go so well at first because she had a female calling saying, I'm calling about your husband, and it released through her off. I don't do that anymore.

I don't call spouses cold, but that's how it started. And I started talking to spouses who were like, I'm not getting the same guy. He's leaving for a deployment and pieces of him aren't coming back. And so when he's gone, not only am I praying for him to come home, but I'm praying for all of him to come home. Let's talk about your wedding night.

Tom doesn't remember much of it. Well, I'm sure you do. What happened? I, you know, I started down the same road as him doing shots. Wasn't so smart. We were both stressed out. We get to the bar after and a lot of work friends, right? So all the military element comes in. Not their fault. They weren't shoving drinks on our throat. We did that. But I think at that time, still is very permissible. Like you're gonna drink, you're gonna be reckless,

you're gonna have fun. And that's still the phase that we were in at that time. And so I think I looked over at Tom maybe on his fifth shot and I had stopped and I looked at him and I said, hey, like it's probably good for the night. That was not received well. I think he kinda went the opposite. Don't tell me to stop drinking.

And so he started drinking more and more and more. To the point where we ended up at a second, like rooftop bar, we sit down and there's a band, I love to dance. That was always a joke with the guys because I'm like, ooh, put on some music. And so everybody, you know, these guys take me to this bar because they're like, I'll get Jen dancing, you know, it'll be fun. And he sat down with the co-owner. We had started a special operations training company.

So the third party to that, he sat down with his wife and spent the entire night chatting with her in the corner. I felt completely betrayed. Like small, invisible, like I made a mistake quite frankly, because I thought this is going to be our life. This train wreck right now is going to be my life. So as we were walking back, I said, do you know you didn't even talk to me tonight, nonetheless dance with me, or kiss me or anything. You spent the entire night in the corner talking to her. Like, that's really weird, right? It just, it was full explosion because I think he realized in that moment, oh my God, you just embarrassed the crap out of me. I'm ashamed. And so he literally was yelling at me so loud walking down the street in Savannah.

I'm in a wedding dress. He's in his outfit. I still have my bouquet. So here people are like honking and waving. I have tears. We get into the hotel of the Hilton and the manager comes over because Tom is yelling at me so loud going up the escalator that he meets me to the other side and said, looked at me at mouth. Do you want me to call security? And I said, no. So you sure? And I said, yes. And he says, I have

your room number, meaning I'll be listening. No one's ever done that to me in my life. Said, like, I'm watching out for you, a manager of a hotel. I became embarrassed, ashamed, like what situation am I in that somebody is stopping me saying, I'm here to help you from your husband. We got into the room. There was a makeup case and things by and he just started tossing them, just started throwing things across the room. And then back in my mind, I'm thinking of that manager too. Like, oh my gosh, that manager's

going to hear it. He's going to hear this. Tom, Tom, Tom. So I'm telling him to be quiet and don't worry about it. You know, he grabbed me a few times through me to the ground. And on the third time he had kind of thrown and pushed me, he pushed me hard. To the point where I thought this could get dangerous, this could get deadly, he's raging. He's full on in a space where I'm afraid of him now. So I locked myself in the bathroom. I didn't sleep all night. I sat up all night just thinking,

if I leave him, he will pull the trigger. For sure. For sure. I cannot leave him. I can't leave him like this and I can't stay. So what do I do exactly? And I didn't have an answer. I just waited till he woke up and kind of looked at me and I was holding the certificate and I said, I just don't know if we should turn this in.

And it wasn't a threat. It wasn't like, I'm going to try to trick you into this. I legitimately thought I just made a big mistake. I have two small children. I can't bring you into my home like this. And so we sat on a beach for a few hours. He asked a whole my hand. I said, no. He respected that. He said, can we talk? I said, no. So for about two and a half, three hours hours we just sat there, staring at the water. And I prayed, I asked God to fix this for me. And I was in a, I don't want to say I was in a believer because I was, I always believe in God, but I was not a practicing person in the spiritual way at all. But I felt a calmness come over me. I reached over and I grabbed his hand and I said, if you get help on Monday, I'll stay.

But you have to get better or I have to go. You understand that, right? Like I have to go. If you can't get better, it's not safe for me to be with you. So I say for my children to be with you. So I say for your child to be with you, when you behave this way. He said, I understand.

And on Monday, he had an appointment. And I had hope. How long did it pass? How much time had passed before he saw him again? Three weeks. Three weeks. He got married. And then he didn't see her husband for three weeks. Yeah, I probably could have been longer. He was offered to do part of our contracting elsewhere and he decided that probably not a good idea. It's decided to move to St. Louis at that point. So I flew out to Savannah, helped him pack his stuff. He was going to come a few months later,

but he said, I need to be with you now. I need to do this with you. How much improvement are you seeing in three weeks? He was playing a good game for a while, but it was a game. He had not fully bought into this healing stuff yet. So I saw the Tom who was trying really hard, like what he thought healing looked like or to be healed, look like he was reading books and quoting the four agreements all the time. And I'm like, hmm, maybe he is getting it. It is a great book. It is a great book.

And quite honestly, people at work had come in. He's like, you should not take things personally. And he would quote these things and they're like, this is guy. Like, what? They look at me, like you brought, literally, I've had many people told me I broke him. I'm like, what? That he's like healing. He's not a jerk all the time. If that's breaking him, and okay, I broke him. I'm like, what? That he's like healing. He's not a jerk all the time. If that's breaking him, okay, I broke him. I made him do yoga. Yes, I did. It's okay. He's still a badass. But it was about three years before I saw true change. Three years? What? How many things did he try in three years?

Transcendental meditation. We did pharmaceutical supplementation, which helped him a lot. So getting all of his biology, kind of right. That's where we focused first was I started reading everything out of cut about PTSD. And I was like, okay, this is what PTSD is. And I remember calling him like, here's the checklist. And they have 36 things on here. And you have like 45. I added some. Like, you definitely have this. He's like, no, I don't. The army didn't give me PTSD.

And I said, what do you mean they didn't? I'm like, I've seen Black Hawk down. There's no way you came out of that. Okay. Like, there's just no way. And we never really talked about Black Hawk down just one time. He said, no, I only have like 10% disability. Kid you not. And he had nine surgeries. So we found a woman named Peggy, through a friend and he was re-qualified at like 220%.

And he absolutely was checked with TBI and PTS. Understanding that diagnosis or how to tackle it gave us a starting place of, wait a minute, this reckless behavior, acting this way as part of it, I always thought I was a bad team. Like, oh, it's just a bad kid. And then I'm like, wait, some of the same behavior these soldiers have was the same behavior I had.

Totally different set of trauma, totally different set of trauma, totally different set of circumstances, behavior very similar. So in healing him, I healed myself, for sure. When did you guys decide, when did the idea of the All-Squeer Foundation start? It was two things, really. I was on the last exercise I would do.

It was four weeks. It was with the CL team, and I didn't want to be gone that long anymore for my children. By this time, it had been almost three and a half years in, and I thought, what am I doing? I need to be at home. I want to be at home. So that exercise, for me, as a mom, did it.

I'm like, I can't keep going like this. So family was a priority. And I thought, well, what am I going to do when I put my camera down and I'm done with this? And I told Tom, I said, you know what? We've helped all these guys go to war. But nobody's helping them come home. It's like what I keep hearing.

And on that last iteration, two seals were killed previously. And so this team was the team that had come back One of these guys is 28 years old. He looks 45 to me now I saw him on a iteration a year and a half before and I could just see it on all of their faces It was so heavy and so I asked the one of the guys who I knew closer. I said how are you doing? I mean he was yeah, it's good. I don't know how are you how are you doing? I mean, he was, yeah, it's good. I don't know. I just know, how are you? How are you doing?

How are you grieving? And once I said that, he just looked at me and he said, we don't do that. I said, you don't grieve? Now, there's no time for that. It broke my heart. It broke my heart. I know these men love these other men.

And to have them say, we don't grieve, I talk about an unrealistic expectation of a human being. Their commander had become friends with Tom. We had done a few iterations, so I knew him as well. And I asked Tom, would it be out of place for me to call him? These guys are suffering. Nobody's doing anything for them on the teams. Even I had to ask a few other guys, you guys at least talking to each other. I get it like the organization's not doing anything. You guys going out and getting a beer, are you talking about it?

That's not what we do. That's not what we do. That's what I kept hearing. I called the commander and I said, your guys are really, I'm just coming to you. Maybe out of place, I don't know. But I've talked to like four guys on your team

and they're all really messed up about this and nobody's talking and nobody's helping them. He said, we have behavioral health. I know talked to like four guys on your team and they're all really messed up about this and nobody's talking and nobody's helping them. He said, we have behavioral health. They know where to go. That was it. I told Tom, I said, this is unnatural. It's unnormal. This is not the way humans are supposed to survive.

And nobody's training them. It's not that they need to know. It's not that they're broken. I hated that. Like, these guys they need to know, it's not that they're broken. I hated that. These guys are broken. Well, no shit. If you saw the things that they saw and did the things they did,

which is completely incomprehensible by the way to most civilians. We have no idea. And by the way, the movies don't get it right most of the times. Some of them do. So I didn't go to combat, but I spent years and years training with them. And even the training cycles are completely traumatic and stressful.

The very first one on a seal died by the truck rotating and flipping. And on day one, they were like, trainings over. And I remember asking Tom, like, what happened? And he said, well, someone was killed. And I said, here? Oh, yeah, a vehicle rolled. On my very first exercise, and I asked him, I said, God, how often do people dry in training? He said, all the time.

People have no idea. So I said, listen, they're not broken. This is biological. This is a total biological. Because then I started learning about PTSD. So I'd start telling all the guys on target like, Hey, hey, go get natural pharmaceuticals. Start sleeping right, you know, do these things,

talk to a therapist and really love to kind of that process of talking to them and they're like, hey, can I call you when this exercise is over to see what Tom's doing next? Yeah, yeah, yeah, here's my phone number. And then I would spend 11 hours a day on the phone. Just next dude, next dude. Can you talk to this guy on the next team?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Try that, go to meditation, do this. And I said, we need to do this. We need to help train people on how to come home. And Tom was like, you mean a nonprofit? I'm like, yeah. He's like, you're a marketing and a film girl. And I was in the unit.

What do we know about nonprofits? And I'm like, everything're a marketing and a film girl. And I was in the unit. Like, what do we know about nonprofits? And I'm like, everything's figure outable. We'll figure it out. Like, you just said it, you were in the unit. You did harder things. We'll figure this out. I'm gonna take a few years, but we didn't. You have, you're like an encyclopedia of statistics

with incomes of PTSD and all of this stuff, the suicides. Can you go through some of the statistics that really resonate with you that you think will capture some attention? The first time I heard was on an exercise. We know that there are 22 veterans a day that take their lives and I said, no way.

I argued with a guy. I said, there's no way 22 a day. I said, I would know about it. Like, I'm plugged in now with this community. So, my, you know, my boyfriend has PTSD and everything and I even knew he had suicide attempts. Not only that, as I started to get to know Tom's friends, I'm like, I know this is deeply personal,

but this would really help me with like my research and what I want to do. Do you ever have suicidal ideations? Is it okay for me? Asking you that every single one of, every single one of Tom's friends said yes. Not a single one said no. And I was starting to hear not just once a day

but like a hundred times a day, I think about it. And so I started telling my civilian friends, do you ever hear this number 22 veterans a day take their life? Every single civilian friend of mine had the same reaction. That's not true. That's too high. There's no way.

We would know, we would know about that. So I called Mission 22. And their name is Mission 22. You got this 22 a day. Where did you get that number from? And they were very gracious. And they talked to me a lot as we were starting up our foundation. This comes from VA statistics and numbers. So I started poking at the VA and it's really, really difficult to get numbers. And for a number of people who like to have that line, I started realizing, well, it depends on who you ask now. Just on TV recently, I heard 17 a day,

which is grossly underestimated. So I started doing more research and I looking into that and I looked at the VA piece from 2014 and they left out several states. And then I started asking for additional research, and nobody had it. Even the organizations that Tom and others were in to have statistics on this.

Do you have numbers on this? Do you know what's going on here? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Well, just this last year, I talked to a man Jim Lorraine, and we were chatting about the numbers, and he's like, well, it's actually 44 a day. And I said, what? 22 days in sane. It's over 8,000.

Now you're telling me it could be up to 16,000 a year? A year. That's like, we went to war because of 9-11. There were over 2,600 people that died. So that would be like, I don't know, four or five, nine, elevens happening every year, just to our veteran population, every single year. That happening. If that were kindergarten teachers, people would be paying attention. But to say they're 16 up to 16,000 suicides a year. I don't even see a news report about it. I haven't heard people really talk about it.

And I don't know why. People have asked me why do you think it is? Is it the assumption there were fighters and this is the natural progression? Well, that's sick. You knew what you were signing up for at 18. No, you didn't. And by the way, even if you did, that means that it's okay for you to take your life because of the trauma that resulted in it.

It makes no sense to me. It makes no sense. There's no, if there were one a day, it'd be too many. But 44 is, I don't know. How many veterans have killed themselves since Mount 11? Up to, well, again, the numbers can be quite skewed. I've heard anywhere from 65 to 140,000. In the same amount of time, we've had roughly 6,000 deaths

by killed in action. So the enemy, as you can see, they're not touching American war fighters. American war fighters are taking themselves out. They actually made a propaganda video about that. Did they? I saw it. Yep, came out.

Probably seven or eight years ago. They actually, they talk about it. I mean, I know you're the interviewer, but how does that make you feel when you learn that statistic? It brings me to rage But that's be that's probably because I mean out Tom had described that earlier too Sadness turns to rage, anxiety turns to rage.

Any emotion other than happiness pretty much just goes straight to rage in resentment. And when I hear things like that and I hear civilians don't know, they don't really care. Canadians are doing better and assisted suicide. Wouldn't surprise me if that comes into the US. I don't I mean I got my benefits from petty Peggy Matthews, too. I won't even step foot in a VA

after those initial what do they call them that the exams they give you? I think I went back one time and I never I just don't think they have your best interest. We were there one time too We left me to appointment Peggy even told me don't ever don't ever go in there and I Mean it just I don't feel like it's in the VA's best interest to keep us alive. It costs money. I agree. You see the staff that they hire.

Shit. I mean, you go to the doctor. I remember the time that I did go, I went to a doctor who barely spoke any English and she was wearing sweat pants and a sweatshirt. And I was like, you're your, you're my doctor. Didn't even know what a seal was. Didn't care. Didn't want to know, wanted to know why didn't go to medical, you know, after the

mission and it's, it's, there is no medical lady. No one and, and you can't get your drugs prescribed anywhere else. They feed you the drugs that you don't need. You know, and it's like, okay, so you want me to die. You're gonna over-scribe me with painkillers, benzos, whatever sleeping pills, whatever you can get your hands on. For sure. Give them to me. Give me a dick, did.

And then later. Yep, see you later. I mean, so essentially, we're already doing better and assisted suicide right here at the VA because that's what they do is pump you full of drugs. Maybe it's gotten better. That was, I mean, that was, it's getting close to 10 years.

You know, so maybe there's been some improvement, I don't know. We walked out of the only one we went into. Tom was on 14 pills and doing nothing for him, except for everything wrong. And then I started googling and I'm like, why are you, how long have you been taking this pill? He was like 14 years, I go,

oh, it says on here for short term six month usage. And he's like, what? And I showed it to him. And I'm like, we got to get you off these pills. And we go to the appointment. I tell the doctor. First of all, I said, well, he was in the unit where the amount of cancer and rare diseases

coming out of there is relevant information to a doctor. And I said, he served in the unit because I don't see how that's relevant. I don't see why that matters. I'm like, he's spent 20 years in combat. Filthy places, training in places with the spestus, all kinds of things. How do you not find that relevant? And then I looked down and he starts writing a script right after we said, we want to get him off these pills. He said, here's two more. You could pull this one off and take these two.

Then I go stand up and top stood up and we just turned and walked out. Like we're leaving, never went back. And he got off all 14 pills. He became much clearer, much better after he did. For sure. It, it outrageous me and I don't go, they're very often, you know, because of that.

But, and it's, I mean, I found other ways, you know, Peggy Matthews, my doctor, psychedelics. For sure. I've used my doctor psychedelics. For sure. Therapy, well, I just started finding other ways to treat myself rather than that, than that. But you took it upon yourself and you took the effort and you made it and I think that's what's so necessary

is that in the part with Tom saying that you saved me, I'm like, I wish I had that power. Because then I just go around and save everyone. I'd be like Jesus. Like, all right, I'm going to walk on some water. Everybody's good. I don't have that power. There's already been a Messiah.

All I can do is say there's a better life than the one you're living right now. I mean, I think a lot of guys find, I think, I don't know how to say this, but I think myself included it takes For me it took seeing how many lives I destroyed that love me Everybody around me. I'd destroyed every relationship around me my family ex-relationships friends, you know, and in I saw, I saw the eggshell syndrome without knowing what eggshell syndrome is, what you guys were talking about the other night. And it, it, you just realized you're a monster.

I mean, just beating the shit out of people of bars for no reason. I mean, it just got to be, it's humiliating. It's humiliating. You don't realize how abnormal that shit is until you leave the unit or the team or that culture because that, I probably get a lot of shit for saying this, but that's the culture. You know, you show up, you get to work hard, you play hard, you play at least as hard as you work.

And what do you immerse in your immersed in violence, womanizing booze and... Never reported for it. You get a medal for it. You get a lot of pats on the back when you bring the girl home. And a lot of raised eyebrows if you don't. If you're not drinking, if you're not bringing someone home. If you're not playing that warrior reckless lifestyle,

then something's wrong with you. So yeah, I got it. I mean, the team doesn't trust you if you don't drink 100%. We just had a retreat at four active duty green berets. Each of them opened up on the very last day because one of them said, so glad that this was not like an alcohol infused weekend. Thank you for not bringing alcohol. Now, Tom and I in the organization won't say, okay, we're done at seven. We're not babysitting you. We're not going, go to your room and don't drink, but we encourage people. Like, do something different.

If it's not working for you, do something different, this trip. And when they come to our dinners, there's no alcohol. And so he said, you know, normally, even though I don't drink, and I'm trying this sober thing, I get so much shit from my teammates for not drinking. Then I end up drinking just to shut them up. And he's like, I'm really trying to be sober. The three other dudes at that table all did the me to me to me too.

And I was so grateful they had that moment together because that's leadership. I can go back now and say, I'll go to the bar with you, but I'm gonna drink a water, no big deal, man. No big deal. You know, misery loves company. And you've got a bunch of miserable people. They're all gonna try to tear the tower down next to me, even though there's love there. I got it.

I mean, people have asked me, why were you able to forgive Tom so quickly for his infidelity? And I said, because I saw the culture he was raised in from the time he was 19 years old, and he stayed there till he was 46. I saw how he was raised, and how he was raised was it's normal to drink and drink at all. It's normal to womanize, get them all. I saw it on trips.

I saw it on iterations, like three and a half years of that. I got it. So I was able to forget him saying, I got it, but that shit's not gonna happen again. That's done. That part of the warrior lifestyles not coming into this marriage, because I'll end it, that'll be it. In fact, when he proposed, I'm like,

I don't know if I wanna be a wife. I just don't know. I see how a lot of guys talk about the wives. Why would I want to be that? What did you say? It'll be different with us. How long did it take for it to be different? About five years.

A lot of, I only threatened him once that I would leave him. And that was our wedding, the day after our wedding. Never threatened that I would leave him again. I didn that I would leave him. And that was our wedding the day after our wedding. Never threatened that I would leave him again. I didn't want to leave him. I loved him intensely. I still love him intensely. But the demons that had gotten really big became really scary and really dangerous. And so there were moments of,

I'm not going to leave you, but we're going to get separate apartments. You're going to move out for a minute so that I can remain safe while you're healing. And I think the frying pan came to, I'm going to get an apartment, I'm just going to leave it. I'm like, here's your keys. You want me to help you pack?

It was like, oh shit. This is real. I'm like, yeah, this is real. Not just because I wanted a better life that I felt I deserved, because I knew, when Tom was good, he was so good. When we were good, we were great. In all the good moments,

because people would say, why did you say I'm like, because our good is so good. Our good is so great. It's amazing. It's the best I've ever had. We are each other's best friends. And I've got his back. And that meant good times and bad. And there was plenty of bad. I never

threatened that I'd leave him though. But he knew there were moments where like it was close. And he was miserable. He just, he doesn't want to live that way either. He just didn't know how to get out of it. And he thought, I'm stuck this way forever. I guess I'm just broken this way forever and it's not true. What was your biggest fear? After that wedding night, what was your biggest fear? I quite honestly was afraid he would hurt me unintentionally in a way that it would shame him so much that he would take his life, that it would be a situation that we know happened. A war fighter hurts their spouse and then hurts themselves and it's more common than you think. It's a leading cause of suicide.

In veteran community is after a family disturbance, they take their life. Is it really? I didn't know that. It's the highest percentage by far. By far, is after a family disturbance, 90% alcohol or pills are involved as well. So that tells me where fighters don't want to take their life. If you have to be so drunk or so high to do it, I've talked to, I don't know how many now, hundreds of guys, I've heard all of their stories. Each one unique, each one painful, each one different, but the similarity

is none of them wanted to do it. I just felt like I'm a monster. I'm ruining my family's life. My kids hate me, they're afraid of me. I'm ruining my family's life. My kids hate me. They're afraid of me. Maybe I put my hands on them. Maybe not. Maybe it's just that I've isolated so much

that they're all done with me. Now I'm not a warfighter. I have no purpose. My family hates me. Bye. But it's going to take a fit the jack to get me there. Tell me about, so you guys started about this nonprofit, the All-Squeer Foundation.

How did you decide what you were going to focus on? It was really tough, because at first I was so excited. And I started using, so the last iteration I had gone on. And then there was one more exercise where I was in combat camera, but Tom was on it. It was with PJs. And so I said, can I come fly out and just watch the exercise, talk to the boys, he's like, yeah, come on out.

So I went out and I just used that as basically my research time. And what I started to find out was, I started asking the guys, do you need help with fitness? Do you need help with mental health? Do you need help in giving them all the PTSD boxes? And what happened is the less sea-locked iteration and the less PJ iteration.

Nine out of 10 guys said, terrible husband, I'm a terrible father. I don't know how to put the monster back in the back. That's what I need help with. Nine out of 10 said, I want to be a better person at home. So I said, that's where we need to focus. And then really kind of what capped it off was, we ended up helping a war fighter get into Warriors's Heart. That's an organization that helps people with PTSD and TBI,

but you also need to be either a war fighter or law enforcement. So it's very specific to the community. Helped get him fully funded paid for. He's in the facility. Tom and I are feeling really good about it. He's a friend of ours. He's getting sober. But about two weeks in, I'm like,

who's checking on his wife and kids? How long is he going to be in this program? 14 weeks. I'm like 14 weeks. How's he leaving his job? How's he providing for his family? Like, he's a contractor. Are they okay? Nobody knew. Nobody knew. None of his friends, and I wasn't really good friends with his family, but I ended up finding her on Facebook. And I reached out, how are you doing? I am terrible. I'm in the worst spot of my entire life ever. My husband's cleaning up, and I just found out about the affairs, about the money gone.

He's, he's feeling great. I feel like shit. And nobody's helping me. Nobody's helping me in the kids. So I'm out here alone. After 25 years of deployments, he's going to go get better, and I'm stuck here again. And that was the moment I said, no, no, no, no, we don't focus on the war fighter,

we focus on the war fighter and their spouse. And then eventually we'll get to the kids. We can figure out hip-hop, but we got to start with both. And so at our organization today, if a spouse, a divorcee, Goldstar, anyone calls us and says, my warfighter's not here, they're not willing to get help, they don't want to get help, whatever it may be. Fine, come on. This organization is equally built for you. How long did it take for you guys to put all these things in place? I mean, that's a, you've got to narrow down to the family, you know, so now what?

So we started with the therapist that Tom and I had worked with. She never worked with military before. She got us, she got us quick. We probably wouldn't be married without her, quite honestly. So one day she had said something to us. She had done an exercise with Tom and she asked him to take the anger and remove it from himself. And I could see he was like, oh great, we're going into this like really woo woo therapy thing.

I can almost see an eye roll and she's like, can you take the angry part of you and put it in the chair next to you? He's like shifting like, okay. And then she started asking him to describe the anger. What does it look like? And he described collar. he described his call sign, fully kidded out. Then I could see it was starting to work.

And she's like, what do you have to say to him? If he's the anger, if he's bringing the rage into the house, what do you want to say to him? And I'm kind of waiting for a smart-ass typical Tom answer. But then I could see that he was actually doing with the therapist said he was doing his best and trying to visualize this and he got really teary eyed. And he just said, I don't

need you anymore. Thank you for keeping me alive over there. Thank you for helping me bring my brothers home. I don't need you anymore. I got it. And the way it changed for us at home after that is that I could start using the language of crawler. And we agreed in the therapy room, I would never use that, hey, you've been an asshole crawler, you know, I've never, ever used crawler. I love crawler. I respect crawler.

Crawler is needed in this world. He's just not needed in my kitchen. He's just not needed dealing with the kids. So it's always out of respect, but when I would see him get big, get red, get rage, I would have a language, a point of stopping that saying, I don't need crawler to go tell the kids to clean the room. You don't need crawler to go on a date with me tonight. I want Tom back.

And at first, it was a screw that and that's not working, you know, resistance to that change. I would say two weeks and really quick, when I said it again, it's kind of getting intense here. Crawler showed back up, screw that doors are slamming, it comes out two minutes later out of the room, not two hours, not two days, two minutes, and he's like, you're right,

but I can't put him back in the box. So that's okay. We've identified it. What do you need to do? So I need to go for a drive for a while. Bye. Come back in an hour or 10. I don't care.

That's fine. You know, this biological response that you had to 20 years of living, of really difficult, I mean, that's putting it mildly right. Intense life is going to have an effect on you. That's normal. That's the normal part. Is that it affects you? Scary if it doesn't. So you got the therapist in? Yeah, so sorry, we got the therapist in. This was in 16. We became a 501 C3 and 17 official

and we started with coaching. So let's just get the guys in. We'll get them to Stacy. They can help these couples in the way that we've been help. That's the goal. Right now, we just brought in our fifth. So we have five licensed clinical social workers that are all coaches. And we do programs. So we have a maritory treat that we absolutely love.

We take 10 to 14 couples at a time and we cross them. So we'll have a seal, green beret, Marsock, PJ, NCOs, officers. And we tell people on day one, nobody gives a shit about what you did. Don't talk about it unless it comes up later and you're hanging out, but this room is for warfighters. No better. Were you served or how you served or how long you served. We're here to deal with the shit afterwards. How it made you feel. And we're going to work on it as a couple. We're going to do this together. That's your forever battle buddy by the way. Let me introduce you to her. The one that's

been sitting there for 25 years holding down the fort. It's her time to heal now too. It's going to take her a little time. She's used to a different version. What is the response like? I mean, I don't think I wasn't married when I was in. And, um... Does it hit him? Do they know?

Like, shit, I didn't think about that. We had a unit guy show up to one of our retreats and he's one of our big volunteers now. He didn't believe he had PTSD when he showed up on Friday. He said, I'm here because Tom was my boss. And you guys were looking for people to fill the retreat and I thought quite honestly, it'd be a good weekend to see Tom.

I haven't seen him in a few years. He came on our retreat, he didn't talk the entire time. Some people will share, hey, this is happening at home. And then you get me to, me to, me to, me to you. We see a lot of elbows flying, which is a beautiful thing because it's the first time most of these couples realize I'm not alone. This happens more often than I even imagine. I'm not crazy. There's a way to the other side of this. We can make it through. But this guy had said, I operated at the highest level for a very long time. And to me, PTSD was the veteran under the rich.

Or an alcoholic. I don't drink. I don't have a problem drinking. I don't have a problem with rage. Well, his problem was isolating. His problem was not being present. So some people will look at PTSD and they'll say, well, I don't rage. Or I'm not an alcoholic. So I don't have it. But then when we started

going through the other symptoms and other things, the anxiety, the depression, the loss of joy, the things that can show up, he identified with those pieces. So on Sunday, he raised his hand and he said, I have PTSD, I don't realize it. But now that I know, now I know how to fight this demon. He sent his wife home when he got home. It's one of my favorite stories. He said, I knew I had to clean up my life and I had to get rid of certain people

and certain things and it was gonna make me an asshole while I did it. I was gonna clean up my diet, I was gonna get rid of processed fruits, I was going to do the supplements that you guys talked about, but I just had learned about eggshell syndrome and what I've been putting my other two wives through. So much so that he gave his ex-wife my book, just as a, sorry, I'm sorry, I did this to you. She wrote our organization, she didn't even write him back and said that it was really powerful

to get that from him in recognition finally after 20 years of what was happening inside the home. So people absolutely wake up to, it's not relegated to the vet under the bridge or the alcoholic or the pill popper. It could be many different forms and it can come in many different ways. It's biological, it's not your fault.

If you broke your arm and I rack, there's a process for it. They would treat it. It's the same thing. You see a big traumatic event. The sooner you deal with it, the sooner you triage it, the better. So that's why Tom and I go and speak at bases.

We talked to these guys that are brand, not even green berets yet, they're in the cue course. They look like my son's age. It freaks me out quite honestly. I'm like, I'm calling your mom. She knows you're here. But we talk about listen, when you go to war, this is the reality of it. This is what you can feel when you come back. Kind of like that psychiatrist did with Tom, you might experience these things. And we see a lot of guys on their phones are ignoring us, like, who's this old couple talking about.

But my hope is that that day when they're raging and they're feeling like I'm so broken, what's wrong with me, they'll say, Tom talked about that. Wait, this is normal. I could go get help for this, and I'll be better. Because that's the truth. How many couples have you guys helped so far?

Last count, it was over 1500, but that's couples. We also do individuals, so if there's a warfight or listening and special operations, he's not in a couple or divorcing or divorced, our organizations for you as well. So individually, we've probably helped well over 5,000. 5,000 people. The funny thing is once you get to work and people find out who you are, we made it super, super easy, connect with the coach button on our website.

Boop was in 24 hours, they're talking to somebody. We're not waiting four months, you're not waiting six months. Quite honestly, when somebody hits that button for help, we know we have a short window to get them. We know we do. Usually it's 11 o'clock at night when we get those messages, those reach out for help. We want to get them right away and say, we got you.

And we don't do it all at all, secure. We specialize in couples, emotionally focused therapy. That's what we focus on, but we're connected to all of these other amazing nonprofits. So somebody comes forward and says, I want the SGB shot or I want to do psychedelics, or can I get some information about traumatic brain injury? We want to be their partner, their triage partner. Okay, what is the thing? Where are you bleeding out first? My relationship, alcohol, pills, whatever it may be. Then we know, okay, have you looked into these options first?

Have you looked into psychedelics? Have you looked into SGB? Have you, why don't you talk to our coaches first and look at an assessment with them? You'd be amazed how many people will come through our system. They do five sessions with us and they're like, got it, nobody's training them. You guys are incredibly gifted, smart, talented leaders. Just need to be told what direction to go. That's it.

Man, that's amazing. It's simpler than we make it. How long have you guys been around as a non-profit? Since 2017, since 2017. It's only six years, five thousand cents of people, and six years. Yeah. Maybe more. Congratulations. Thanks. What do you guys need? Do you need? What do you need? Money? More therapy? Well, we can always use money. Quite honestly, we have an admin donor, which I'm really I'm super proud of this company. They

kind of wish to remain anonymous. I might get them to peak their heads out. They're really good Missouri family. They're our admin partner. So they cover our salaries, admin, all of that stuff. They're our business partner. Running a nonprofit is a business. We have staff, we have people that work for us. They help us to cover those costs. So that when people donate to our organization,

a hundred percent of that is going to go to a coach or to one of our programs. So, it's going directly to a warfighter family. We always need more money because our therapists and our coaches are expensive. We cover those costs, the veteran doesn't pay anything. So, we always need more money with more money, more therapist, more development of new programs. The program I'm super passionate about is getting our teens in. I don't think many people know, but children of combat warriors who have PTSD or twice as likely, at least, to take

their own life. Twice as likely? I've heard statistics are so tough, but I know twice for spouses as well. So for a spouse who's married to a combat warrior who has PTSD, she's twice as likely to take her life as well. I think the Pentagon gave a whole 200 deaths on 2019 to spouses, but we know that numbers are far, far greater. We've actually been touched by families of Tom. Tom knows these men whose sons have taken their lives with their guns.

Do you guys reach out to the SEAL teams, the UNED, the groups? What are they? What is the response? Do they hide it? There's two responses that we get. If we get a good leader, we get a great response. Hey, can we show up? Can we come talk to your boys?

Yeah, let's look at the calendar. Let's look at the schedule. We had a great response. Hey, can we show up? Can we come talk to your boys? Yeah, let's look at the calendar. Let's look at the schedule. Let's see what we can do. Donovan and Bank is making a ton. They're a nonprofit, former Green Braze. They're making a ton of connections. They were in, they were just recently out. So they're all over the place.

And I'll check in with them on how leadership's taking it. We've seen both. I mean, I literally had a general tell me I was full of shit because he didn't like my numbers. He didn't think they were accurate. So I asked him for his numbers, you know, because basically what we we come forward is listen, your relationship is critical. It's life saving actually. I think one of the hardest things Tom told to a seal, he went through the Navy Seal Foundation and spoke to one of the teams.

And he said, how many of you guys would run out onto the battlefield and take a bullet for your friend? Of course, all, I mean, I think they were seeing a CAG guy show up, so they had to expand the rooms and it was just huge. I think they were coming in for war stories and he didn't give them any. I think there's probably a few disappointed guys in the room.

But he's like, how many of you would do that? Every hand, you're looking across. Oh my gosh, all these seals. Yes, yes, yes, me, of course. And he said, how many of you are gonna take a key from a guy? When you know he's drank the bar down, you're gonna take the key away from him at night and that bar, who's gonna do that?

Quiet. When he's picking up that girl, he knows he's got a wife and two kids at home. And when that wife finds out she's gonna leave him, that's loading a gun for that dude. We know statistically 89% are gonna take their life after something happens at home, divorce, an embarrassing thing.

So you're willing to die for him overseas, but you won't help them at home. I was just making any sense like how are we having each other's back? That's either received really well or not well at all. It depends how healed you are. So when I approached this general and I said I need the divorce statistics from you guys and special operations, knowing that if 89% are taking their lives after a family incident, how many divorces, how's divorce playing with war? We don't have those numbers.

Yet the highest rate is after a family incident, and you're putting your money and your time in your effort over here when that's 4%. It makes no sense. And so research and numbers are critical because it helps. Here's where the money needs to go. Here's where the attention needs to go. This general stepped out on his own after probably he was embarrassed that on Friday night, he had to have his CSM call me and say, we don't have numbers on divorced statistics and special operations. I said,

might be a good time to go get those, seeing how the numbers line up. They went and did their own research. One of the guys on her retreat this year said, guess what? That general did research on family after you were there. I'm like, amazing. What did they find? 39% of suicide happened after a family disagreement, 4% for all other. Wow. He goes, you are right. I go, it's not my numbers. It's their numbers. I'm just bringing him to you guys to say, pay attention. Put your money in your time and your effort over here. No longer can you go to war and say the family's fine.

It's not. They have to face the facts and whether they will or not, I guess it's up to leadership. Do you feel like the majority are taking it seriously? No, I do. I've heard some guys come up with some pretty stupid excuses, and they're the ones that are super unhealed, and super in a bad place. I meant the commands. Um, I have seen some pro. So in 2013 is when I first met Tom and worked with Tom.

2023 to then is drastically different. I don't have to educate people on PTSD anymore. I used to have to go on, this is the amygdala and this is the hippocamus and the bar. This is fight, flight, or freeze. I used to have to literally explain what PTSD was when I'd go into do my briefings. I don't do that anymore. People get it. We've dropped the DNR organization post-traumatic stress injury. We don't identify it as a disorder. You can heal from it. It's not a life sentence. It's a biological injury. I think they're

getting that. What I don't think they want to spend their time on and money and effort is on the family's note. They want to train, they want to buy Gucci gear, they want the equipment, we still see that, yes. In fact, we just asked a company, where's your protif funds? And there was zero, we don't have any in, what's that? And who's that in preservation of the force and family? And no, we don't know what that is what's that? And who's that? And preservation of the Forrest and Family?

And no, we don't know what that is. Tom goes, what's your training budget? Two million for this? Okay, so all your money's going to your guns. None of it's going to the thing that's gonna end up killing you. Damn, that's pretty sad. And hopefully something will be done about it. It's over here.

Well, I'm sure a lot of them are listening. You know, but you guys better start making moves. If you're listening, you know, I hear, you hear officers all the time and senior and listed, oh, we don't wanna do this off. We might lose somebody. We might lose somebody. I don't wanna lose somebody.

I don't, well, you're fucking losing people. Left and right. So get off your ass, put your fucking ego aside, and do something. You're the only ones in a position to do something. So do it. Truly. Shit makes my hair stand up.

I get so angry thinking about it. But, um, well, Jen, what it would not cover? God. Spiritful. Okay. We'll get to that. But, um, I think for the organization, I mean, you ask what we need. We always need money. With more money, we have more programs, more coaches, more people. We can help. And then the awareness of your show, quite honestly. It's been awesome. Even just the little Instagram we had a lot of connect with the coaches last night. That's our

goal is to get folks from the community to hit that button. Good. Good. I do have one other question. Where are all your guys' retreats? Are they always at the same locations? We have done them. Johnny Morris said, Bass Per Shop, he's a huge supporter of ours. We love Johnny. We started our retreats. Did him every year at Big Seater Lodge out in Branson, Missouri. We are looking to develop our own camp home front, maybe in Montana, somewhere in the mountains.

That's in development right now. But what we're doing in October, looking to build in Nashville, and then do a West Coast, maybe out by the seals, is to bring the information to them. That's immediate, like almost triage. So we're taking 150 versus 24, and we're bringing in speakers.

Over a two-day event for couples, individuals, in the special operations community, we have some phenomenal speakers standing up and sharing how they made it through, operators, field experts, couples saying, yeah, I struggled here, and this is how I got through, and because it's so different for every person, we want to hear multiple perspectives.

We want to hear from a seal how he started sleeping again and how that changed his life. I want to hear from a green beret who had done psychedelics and how that helped him find God. We need to bring in so many different perspectives and we could do that over these two days. At the end of the day, our goal is for that couple, every couple that's there has to say, this is my forever battle body. I got your six, you got mine good. No more of this worst wife, first wife, depend upon him is no more of this toxic culture emerges can exist because it's killing them.

It's killing you guys. Man, you guys are making a lot of waves. It's awesome. Congratulations. And Jen, it was an honor to have you here. And thank you for sharing all that. I know some of that was probably not easy to get off your chest. But thank you.

And a lot of good is going to come your way when this releases. I know it will. So we've got an awesome audience. These people care. Credible audience. So really care. Credible audience. So really appreciate you having us on. It'll make a big, big difference for a lot of people. My pleasure.

All right, let's take a break. Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan Show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes, and leave the Sean Ryan show review. We read every review that comes through and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show. All right, Tom. I promised this is the last segment. I'm going to follow my wife. That's hard.

You ready? I'm ready. All right. I gotta follow my wife, that's hard. You ready? I'm ready. All right. So talking to your wife and you after, after Jen was just on her, I didn't realize that all secure foundation is helping, it's not just veterans, it's active guys. It sounds like there's a lot of active duty guys. And so we had talked about how none of the information gets out. You guys don't keep records. I think it's really important that you elaborate on that because we got

a lot of active guys that watch the show, you know. And so they need to know that their information is safe. It's not going to get out. And so I just want you to go into that for a minute. Yeah, that's one of the biggest worries. And so I just want you to go into that for a minute. Yeah, that's one of the biggest worries. And that was one of the biggest worries that I had and other people had. If I open up, a command won't trust me. There's something wrong with me.

The psychs will say something. I'll lose my clearance. I'll get pulled. I'll lose my job. We're just cesspool shit. That's bullshit. Your commands are here to help you because the commands will be like,

we're here to help them. We're here to take care of them. We're here for them and we believe them. And then we start hearing from command and some other mid-level leaders, like you need to self-assess, you can't get a DUI and then say I post your max stress, I can't help you then, you have to self-assess before you do

something horrible and negative. A lot of these guys won't come and get help. So they won't reach out, they're afraid we're gonna talk to their command, so they don't go to their shrinks So they won't reach out. They're afraid we're gonna talk to their command. So they don't go to their shrinks, they don't go to local shrinks because they keep records. So we have coaches.

And our coaches are not required to hand out or maintain any records. And I've been approached by two or three different organizations from people who are going through like dry out, you know, K-Ams or checking into other hospitals. And they've requested paperwork. And absolutely won't hand it to them and we don't legally, we are not bound to hand them any information because we don't provide counseling, we provide coaching. And so your records are safe, your name is safe, you hit connect with a coach button on our website, and it goes straight to GenreI. And then it goes directly to a coach

who won't give out your information. A Genre I will never get out of anybody's information. So the activity has started flowing in more with that trust. And I hope that word of mouth goes out that, hey, you can be trusted, they can be trusted not to tell anybody and they're not sharing your stories and names around the world.

And people have started reaching out more that way. Knowing that they can trust us not to share who's asking. A lot of spouses are actually reaching out too because they're husband like, don't reach out because they'll ask and then they'll talk about me and then they'll know about me. So they know as well. Are you guys the only ones reaching the act of duty? I've not heard anybody else. I don't know. I would hope not. I would hope we weren't the only ones. I think maybe active do some people who feel is relegated to active counseling, active counselors. I think other organizations offer help, but there's a real fine line between if you're active, what help you can go get

So people are seeking it on their own behind the scenes, you know Possibly doing illegal things in order to get their own help. That's how difficult it is When active team guys and special ops guys have to go behind the scenes and do psychedelics or or do other treatments Because they know they need help that tells me their organizations are not helping them. Very true. So we think when we spoke at Congress, we talked to some staffers and they were talking about how you're talking

about the VA, you're trying to approve, get this thing approved for the VA, biomarkers where they could determine through biomarkers who has post-traumatic stress because they were worried about some people are faking it. You know, and that's money, right? That's money, so someone's faking it. And then others who won't claim it.

So, okay, you can take a blood draw, find these biomarkers that'll tell you you have post-traumatic stress. So, we wouldn't spoke about post-traumatic stress and how it affected our lives both of us spoke. And then it passing that maybe two and a half years later, they got that bill passed. Just recently, that's awesome. While we're up there, maybe two and a half years later, they got that bill passed.

And just recently, that's awesome. While we're up there, it's all VA, it's all VA. The staffer said we wanna take you to our congressman, who's now dead, but we wanna take you to our congressman, and we want this in the DOD as well. And it made sense. If you take care of him while they're in, it won't be as bad when you get out.

We've always been preaching it, so we were happy when they said the DOD wanted to pick it up. I doubt that happened. But the VA got what they needed out of it. And we started determining that helping active duty, keeping them stronger while they're in, helping them stay healthy, will give them a healthier family relationship at home, which will give them a better team time. Their people can trust them. They can hopefully spread that to the team, the positivity versus the negativity. And then when they do get out,

that transition's a bit easier. They've already had that connection with mental health. They don't feel embarrassed to reach out. And then they continue to reach out and they continue to heal. So it's not like we're starting a ground zero. 10 to 15 or 13, or even hopefully two years after retirement

when they've hit rock bottom. Hopefully they know the process and they'll step right into it easier. Man, that's amazing. There's something I want to talk to you about and it's getting better and it's for the operators that are getting better and I feel like that there is more to this than trauma to. I think that there is a big sense of self-worth that is lost, sense of purpose that is lost. And I think that a lot of the guys that are coming up

from the coming out of these, you know, tip of the spear units. It's really hard to reinvent yourself. Would you agree with that 100% and yeah, I know I struggled with that a lot. I know a lot of guys struggle that it's that, I mean, you're coming to, it's like being a pro, a pro athlete and then it's gone. I'm now with the hell do you do? And so how did setting up the all secure foundation help you with all of that? The giving back, the helping, the teaching, because we don't help. I use the word help.

I didn't want help. These operators don't want help. So I use the word help. I didn't want help. These operators don't want help. So we use the word teaching. Come learn a new skill or come get retrained on your old skill that you've had before. You've lost those talents. You replaced them with other talents of island ones. So we don't like to say help anymore,

but come get training. And the question was, I'm sorry, maybe I worded them wrong. I'm not asking what all Scare Foundation does for these guys. I'm asking, and it could be anything, you could replace all Scare Foundation with something else that maybe you would have, that you did. But it seems like that's the most significant thing that you've done since you've left. And it's very significant.

And so what I'm asking is finding that new sense of purpose and knowing how important the mission actually is, if you've seen more improvement just in that alone, just in the new sense of purpose, the new, your new life's purpose. I mean, how has that helped you? My new tribe. Your new tribe.

My new family, my new thing, a reason to live. Hope. Not just sitting there wondering what I've been, but how will I be better now? Instead of sitting in my misery, thinking of all the things I did, you know, that last high school touchdown pass I threw. Did I peek in high school? Am I going to live that the rest of my life? It's like, I can't.

You know, I did something pretty good. I thought it was great. It was amazing. I left it, you know, I did something pretty good. I thought it was great. It was amazing. I left it, you know, a little bit better sometimes, whatever. None of that matters. Unless I sit and wallow in it for the rest of my life. And I sit and live in that dream. You know, and I always describe it as you're driving a car down the highway.

You're going 200 miles an hour. Do you want to look in the rearview mirror, which is only that big? And that's all you your past and live right there because you're gonna crash that car. Or you're gonna look through the windshield, which is 10 times or 100 times that size. And it's heading in the direction you want. And you're in the now, going in the future

through the windshield. If you're looking ahead, you probably won't crash. That means you're on it. You're aware of what you're doing and you know where you're going. A lot of guys focus on that riverview mirror and they're like, I did this, I did that and I'll never do that again. If you keep saying that you won't. If you devise a plan and use all the tools the military gave you, you know, you'd never planned in the military, right? You don't know how to

plan something. You don't have contingency plans. You know, you primary alternate contingency emergency plans. You always had four or five different plans and then when those failed, you fell back on the SOP's you practice every day. Use that. Use that for everything. Use that for your new future. Do a little assessment on what I want to do, what makes me happy, what needs done, what whole needs filled. And everyone's calls, I want to help, I want to help you. How can I help? I used to say, well, I'm thinking, you know, and now I'm like, I don't know, how can you help? What do you do? What do you want to do that you can do well? And then they pause on that. Okay, think about what you want to do, what you can do, and if you can do it well, and hit us back. Find out what you want to do.

Find your passion. Guys are like, I don't know what to do. I don't know. And Jen's like, what do you do? What's your passion? I play music. Okay? Why don't you play music?

Well, the guy's a laugh. I'm going to go, so he'll give his shit. You playing for them? You're still living in the past. We're worried about what your guys are going to do and judge you. Take that passion and ignite it. Turn in into a job. Turn into a career.

Turn in something you love. But don't lay there and die. You know, the greatest failure is a failure to try. So once you stop trying, that's exactly where you'll stay forever. That's what I would say, too. You know, I mean, a lot of these guys aren't, they're not going to know what their passion is because the passion is work.

It's going to war, it's training, it's being with the guys, it's, it's, it's the lifestyle. There's no time for any other passion. And so, or hobbies. I mean, shit, I still don't have any hobbies. I don't have hobbies. To be honest with you. I was terrified you guys moved my hobbies, where I'm like, make one up. That's funny because when I met my wife, I told her my most feared question was what are your hobbies?

Because I don't have any. Right. Yeah, I like to get shit face to get in bar fights. Those are my hobbies. I do dishes and get shit face. But cleaning. But it takes a minute. I'm just going to talk about myself for a minute,

but I mean, if you would have asked me, when I was in the SEAL teams, if I'd be sitting here interviewing people for the rest of my life, I'd have told you you were out of your mind. I don't even like talking to people. But that's what it developed into. And it just took trying all these different things. I didn't realize how much I enjoy creativity.

I mean, I built this entire set. I learned all the camera stuff. I picked the angles. I did the editing at the beginning. I did the trailers. I did all of that. And it just grew into a new passion. And that's, there's, you know, that's what I do today.

You know, two passion. Yeah. And it just takes a minute, but you have to, I guess what I'm saying is you have to get out and you have to try new things. Otherwise, you're never gonna replace the void that you're feeling right now, as you leave the unit or you leave the team or you leave the group or whatever,

whatever your law enforcement agency, federal agency, it doesn't matter what you've immersed your life into. When you leave that, you have to try new things, otherwise you'll never fill the void. All right, and don't try to fill it with the exact thing or something is big, right? Don't start there. Because you feel like I'll never do something that big. I never thought I'd do anything that big again. When it's explained to me, you're probably saving more lives now than you ever would have done.

You're probably helping more soldiers and warriors than you ever helped before. And I look at that thinking, all right, that's better than I'm not doing my job anymore. I'm not, you know, kicking down doors or leading men kicking down doors and punching paperwork, which I hate, you know, it's just I didn't even live in the past anymore. And that's our struggle is to pull people out of the past. Pull those guys out of that drinking cycle, that team room cycle, that's all they know and that's all they want to hold on to. I mean, not probably.

I don't think it's probably, you've probably saved more. I think you have definitely, I mean, your wife, Jen just came on and said, it's over, I think she said, it's over 5,000 people that you guys have put through the All-Squeer Foundation in one way or another. And so there's 5,000 something people. Plus their families, their kids, their friends,

you know, and the impact just spider webs out to where you can't even trace it. Why I do this now, I did it then because of Jen, right? Good looking girl starting up a thing. We're going to get married. I started rolling into it and then you get the thing. We're going to get married. I started rolling into it and then you get the letters. You get the thank yous. We have a letter on our refrigerator that was sent to us written in crayon. We'll flower on it.

I said thank you for saving my mommy and daddy. That's why I do it. I do it because a wife stood up in a retreat and we make people write letters to each other and say, one word, pick one word and don't use brave and courageous, right? One other word, then describe your spouse and tell them what you want to tell them. The spouse stands up, maybe our last retreat that we held and says, thank you for these letters. Been married 30 years, and I never knew my husband felt any of this. I'm going to frame it. I'm going to show my children's and them copies because none of us ever knew he felt this way about us.

I'm going to show my children's and them copies because none of us ever knew he felt this way about us. We did that with one letter and to me that's changing an entire generation of people. And that's why I do it now. It's a damn good reason, man. I think there's one key component that we haven't spoken about yet. I think there's one key component that we haven't spoken about yet. You found God about a year and a half ago. Yeah. Let's talk about that experience. I grew up Lutheran, right?

I was sent to school one to eight. I church every Sunday, every Wednesday. Studied the Bible. You know, um, finished high school and then joined the military and all that happened. I church every Sunday, every Wednesday, studied the Bible, you know. Finish high school and then join the military and all that happened. And I didn't ever give up God. I gave up everything I was supposed to do. Well, knowing God. And probably, well, I kept that until about a year and a half ago, thinking, I'm going to hell anyway, right?

I've killed people. And I told Jenna, I was like, you know what? I've killed people. I don't doubt shout, not kill. You know, I've done that. That's a commandment. And she brought up my attention, because she's reading the Bible and studying the Bible. I said, I'll show not murder.

And I never knew that difference. That literally gave me hope that I wasn't damned that God had rejected me. And I know He never, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm asked for forgiveness and you're good. It's hard to tell yourself that. And I started feeling better. You know, I started reading more.

I started listening to podcasts, you know, describing the Bible and I started texting. You know this? You know, that's like, yes, I know you've done. Yes, I read that and I know. And it just kept bringing me up and up and up. And if that's all that does, then that was amazing in itself. And just feeling that connection again with God and praying to God and feeling the differences that it makes and seeing the things that come from it and just having those feelings,

was a big change back for me, going back to who I was, calming me down, letting me find a space to talk to somebody. You know, just vent and know they're hearing me, and then to feel that passion later, and that love come over you. And it's just some things I've seen that have shaken me to the core like, okay, these messages are out there, right? They're not just happening. What kind of things? God, just the numbers, different numbers, I see all the time, 33, 44, I never would have noticed.

Ever, and then I look up what does this mean? Religious linear was, oh, it's crazy, you know, if it's crazy, okay, it's crazy, but it's happening. And I see it, and it's not just happening to me. And then things sitting in a hot tub, one night with Jen, and looking up through a backyard, headed to the dark and we had these, you know, the candles just sticking around,

the teaky torches or whatever. And one of them was just shaking back and forth. And Jen's like, what's going on up there? I mean, a little up or deck, and there was no wind blowing, it wasn't raining, still, and this teaky torch is shaking back and forth. And I looked up at it and I was like, Oh God, that's weird what's going on, you know. And we had been talking about something deep in the hot tub. I don't even remember what the topic was. And this was to me was a sign.

I looked up and I looked at it and I was like, Oh, come on, you know, and I looked around and I was like, that's no wind blowing. What would be making that shake? And I just screamed, stop! And it literally stopped dead in his tracks. And I looked around and I go, no, freaking way. I go, okay, I'm inside now. And it was one of those things that made you nervous at first, scary at first. And then you realize at the times

like we were talking about something that broke us from that conversation and stopped it. And I don't think we ever re-inered it and it just brought us to another connection of what was that. That was a message, wasn't it? To looking at things like both my parents are a decision now and my father, you know, the cardinal connection, red birds. And I'd never seen a cardinal in our yard even though we're in St. Louis where the cardinals are apparently. And now they flood through our yard. All the time flying up, when I'm just talking, oh, hey, dad, what's up?

And it makes me feel better to where my dad was into owls, ow rings. He always wanted an owl ring, his entire life, they couldn't afford it. And shortly before he died, my mom finally bought him one, you know, they had the money. And I have that ring at home. And now we've had out landing in our backyard every night. Thank goodness he's eating our moles, but he lands in the backyard every night and just kind of looks around and we talk to him, you know, to now there's two hours that come up and sit every night on a branch and hop down on

your yard and hop around. Look at us. We put our dogs inside so they don't chase them. And then they just hop around our yard and fly back up in a tree and stare at us and start squawking and screaming. And I'm like, this is crazy. This is crazy. And if you ignore these messages, you might as well ignore every message, right, from anybody. And I just started getting that overwhelming feeling of people... Well, a society nowadays seems like they're turning away. And nothing good's coming from it.

Right? Nothing good is coming from it. And when you have a book that's been written, it's the oldest book that this many people still follow and believe, how can you deny that? Right? Nonbelievers. Why bother? Why waste your time? It's not my job, right? God did that. There's preachers to do that. And if you're non-believer, and you want to believe, by all means believe, start

do some research, whatever it takes. But I don't waste my time in non-believers. I'm not that converter guy, right? I'm not the guy that goes out and preaches and, hey, you know, every time I you come up to me, I'm not going to talk about God to you. There's people that make me nervous like that and overly religious. I don't want to push people away. If people are curious, I'll talk to them about God, what I know and how it makes me feel and why. But I no longer have that feeling like I'm going to hell. I feel like I've been forgiven. I know that I've been forgiven. I've come clean on things like I'm going to hell. I feel like I've been forgiven. I know that I've been forgiven. I've come clean on things.

And I feel good about it. And that's a better future for me. A better outlook for the future for me. And I appreciate it. And I talk to God more now. And it's more about things of family related. And I hope that you're still making the right decisions. And I literally asking if he ever needs any help, let me know, you know, so kind of having that relationship.

Probably a lot of people freaking out right now too. Hear me say that. Well, maybe, but people that know me, I think they don't. They don't know. You know, I mean, what do they say? Attractions always better than promotion. And I think just by talking about your relationship with God, that's enough to make somebody come to him.

Maybe not everybody. Won't be everybody. But you got a lot of people to look up to you, man. A ton of people. Whether you like to peer that or not, veterans, guys at the unit, guys wanting to go to the unit. I mean, people are going to hear your story and they're going to want to join the army. And some of them will wind up at the unit because you just sat in that chair. You know, and the same thing is going to be with people coming to God. Yeah, a lot of people are going to dismiss it.

They won't want to hear it, but they'll be a handful that that's all they needed. They just needed to hear Tom Satterley talk about it. And I do think there is a, there's one thing. I mean, who do you think intervened that night in the parking garage or that day in the parking garage? Yeah, God, he does everything. So there are no coincidences, right?

Yeah, he didn't want me dead. He knew there was more for me. And I know that now. I know that now that my days weren't over. I hadn't done my best yet. And he kept me around long enough to see that. Do you feel like you're doing your best now? I'm trying. I'm always trying to do my best. Is it my best? No, I'll always keep trying to do better.

Is it my best? Now I'll always keep trying to do better Well, Tom, I spent a hell of an interview man. It's been a long one and I Just want to say I know that I know it took you 20 years to even talk about what happened to Mogadishu To come out publicly and talk about that and And I know you're tired of talking about it. And I just wanna say, man, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart,

it was a real honor to be able to get you here to talk about that, to document it. And then everything that came afterwards. And I just wish you and your wife, Jan, the best of luck. And you guys are doing amazing things. And thank you for your time. Thank you for being here.

And it's an honor to get to know you. Thank you. I really appreciate you having us on and giving us the opportunity to share with more and reach more people. This is the opportunity we've been looking for to reach as many people in need as we can. So thank you. The honor is all mine, brother.

Cheers. The former Navy SEAL Mike Ritland keeps it real on the Mike Drop podcast. He's the co-CEO of the All Secure Foundation, which is this special operations in active duty combat that's time-satterly. Nobody helps you shoot your gun. They trained you, had a shoot your weapon, so we're going to train you on a thing you've never been trained for, out of come home for more. Everything else that turns people away from it. We try to rebrand it, reduce or dismiss the kind of stigma that's associated with it.

You have to. Mike Drop, raw, unfiltered, intellectually sound, wherever you listen.