Shawn Ryan Show - #77 Tom Satterly - Delta Force Operator | Part 1

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

This week on SRS, we welcome Command SGT Major (R), Tom Satterly to the show. Satterly is a former Delta Force Operator with over twenty years of combat experience. He has participated in operations all across the globe. We're breaking his incredible story into a three part series. Part 1 We learn about Satterly's upbringing and how he joined the military. Satterly walks us through vivid memories of his recruitment experience. He shares his experience in the training pipeline and the road to Delta. He recounts the work up to Somalia and the ruthless crimes of Mohamed Farrah Aidid. Satterly takes us through early missions in Somalia and his first kill. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://babbel.com/srs https://shopify.com/shawn https://goldco.com/ryan | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Tom Satterly Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tomsatterly All Secure Foundation - https://www.allsecurefoundation.org All Secure Foundation IG - https://www.instagram.com/allsecurefoundation Books - https://www.allsecurefoundation.org/category/books Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Now streaming on Paramount Plus. Hey baby, I hear the blues It's calling, toss salads, and scrambled eggs. Y'all know how this goes. And maybe I seem a bit confused. Yeah, maybe. But I got you picked. Ha-ha-ha.

But I don't know what to do with those toss salads And scrambled eggs. Kelsey Grammer returns in Frazier. Life's calling again. New series now streaming on Paramount Plus. It would be a tragedy if we were losing one person to drug overdose every day. Even five, seven, or 12 people.

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Snowing as the battle of Mogadishu, a lot of you know this from the movie, Black Hawk down. This episode is going to be broken up into three different portions. The Black Hawk Down Battle of Mogadishu portion will be released tomorrow, October 3rd, on the 30th anniversary. I can't believe it's been 30 years. The 30th anniversary of the Battle of Mogadishu. And this is this individual's last time

that he's going to give his full testimony on everything he's witnessed during that event. And it's a real honor for me to be able to do that and like I said this episode is broken up into three different portions. We start with his career at Delta which you'll hear today tomorrow. It will be all about the battle of Mogadishu, Black Hawk Down. And the day after that, we will wrap up his career at Delta, meet his beautiful bride, and talk about his transition, and what helped him reintegrate in disability and life.

Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, please welcome retired Delta operator Tom Satterley to the Shonurine Show. Please like, comment, and subscribe to the channel, head over to Apple and Spotify podcast, leave us a review, tell us how we're doing, and as you already know, there are thousands of reels for download, for free in the description. You can use them, get creative with them, make money off of them, put it on all your social media channels, all we ask.

Just take the Sean Ryan show and give us a little credit. We love you all. Enjoy the episode. God bless America. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background for us and me. Yeah. Thank you. So, I think we connected through your friend, Chris Van Zant. He came out here, we didn't interview awesome human being and he just, I mean, he had so many good things to say about what you and Jen are doing with all obscure foundation and he wanted me to make sure that we, I think we talked about it too. Yes, yeah, you do. So this has been a long time coming and I don't even know how to introduce you, man. But I'm going to attempt to in a minute.

But I just want to talk about this interview is, I mean, you have 25 years in military, correct? Yes. 20 of which is in Delta. Yeah. And it would be damn near impossible to cover everything that you've seen and experienced through 25 years of war. And we're going to do the best we can. So it's hard for me to remember all this.

I'll bet it is, man. But I just wanna say, I don't want you as we go through this interview, I don't want you to assume that I know anything about you. I want you to be as descriptive as possible because you've seen so much, you've experienced so much and your story, I think, is a very important piece of American history that I want to document.

And we're going to obviously discuss very in depth mental health. And so the way I want to do it is I want to, it sounds weird saying this to you, but I want to qualify why you're relevant to talk about post-traumatic stress, traumatic brain injury, mental health, and we do that here by going and digging into your past. And I know it's, some of it's very traumatic, but I just appreciate you being here, and it truly is an honor, man.

Thank you, I appreciate that. And, you know, this is gonna be released on the 30th anniversary of Mogadishu. And when you walked in here today, you had said that today is the 30th anniversary, I'll let you finish it. Yeah, of Task Force Ranger occupying, Samoia moving into Mogadishia.

Probably not a coincidence. Yeah, you know what, I don't believe in those. I even know today was the day until I saw it, you know, on the used to sock page or something. It was just, I was like, oh, wow, okay. At least I've forgotten it. You know, at least I've forgotten that, you know, a little bit of that part of my life. Yeah, do you wanna forget it? I do. I don't wanna forget all of it, you know, at least I've forgotten that, you know, a little bit of that part of my life.

Yeah. Do you want to forget it? I do. I don't want to forget all of it, but there's a lot I don't want to remember, you know. When you do, it's more traumatic. Every trigger is the trauma. And so there's a limit to how much and how long you should be recalling these stories and regurgitating them, whether it's on stage or in a movie or anything, because your brain doesn't know the difference between reality or not. So as I talk about

those things, I hate the word trigger. You know, it resensitizes me to those moments and days, and I think about it. And I couldn't tell you what I think about. It's just a deep sadness that comes over me of that time. Yeah. And everything lost. It's not a specific moment really. They were all pretty horrible. And then the ones that weren't horrible, you know, are not as memorable. Yeah. I could understand that. Well, let me give you an introduction here. A attempt to. So, Tom Satterley, you were a command sergeant major retired at Delta Force this is going to be your last interview on Mogadishim what happened in Somalia you're the founder of the all-scare foundation you are a husband your father your Christian

United States Army Special Operations Command, 25 years, 20 of which was in Delta Force over Fort Bragg. One Silver Star, four bronze stars, two with valor, four defense, Maritoria Service Menals, two joint service commutations, Menals, Maritoria Service Menals. The list goes on. I don't want to bore you with your own metals. But, you know, just like I said at the beginning, you've had a hell of a career both in the military and outside of the military, and I want to cover as much as possible. But everybody that comes here starts with a gift. So

something there. So not the traditional vigilance leak gummy bears. I'll give you those to you down, Serious. But this is we talked a lot last night about brain health, right? And so, and we got into talking about mushrooms and functional mushrooms and stuff. And so, this is from layered super food. And that's a creamer. There's also a coffee in there, and there's a functional mushroom blend.

And so, it's a functional mushroom coffee. Nice. It's a functional mushroom. It's called performance mushrooms. You can put that in with your coffee, and then It's a functional mushroom. It's called performance mushrooms. You can put that in with your coffee and then that's a creamer which also has you guessed it performance mushroom. So now but it's super good for your brain. You know it helps with cognition, focus, energy balance, all that stuff. So can I just take it all at once? Well, if you want to, but test it out, see if you like it. Yeah, that's awesome.

Appreciate this. My pleasure. This is cool. But a little brain health and work, man, because I needed a lot, you know? Yeah, a lot of us do. But I kind of mentioned in the beginning, we definitely want to hit on mental health. And so I thought it would be good.

Usually we wait till the very end for that, but with what you're doing with all secure foundation and everything that you stand for post-service, you have a chapter in your book that is a very good description of post-traumatic stress. And so, I was hoping before we actually start and get into your story that you could kind of talk about post-traumatic stress like you did in the chapter of that book. Yeah, I'll give it my best.

Do it like I did in the chapter. To me now, and I end up telling stories like from back then until now because there are two different perspectives in my life now. And I see that post-traumatic stress is that thing that we try to get those who it's a biological change in your body from a traumatic experience. And so many war fighters just think that I've trained through this. I've been trained for this. I'm good with this.

I don't have post-traumatic stress. And our mission is to teach them that you've been trained to go to war. You haven't been trained to come home from war. You have no idea how to do that. And the repetition built up over the years of muscle memory doing the same thing, being rewarded for violence and aggression. And then you come home feeling like a God, you move into your house again and you take over the family and if you're retired or done with

your job, you kind of present that to them. You don't just change who you are when you come home. It took you 10, 15, 20 years to get that way. You're not going to change back. You're going to have to put in a lot of work. And you can't, now'll command it, would I tell people? No matter how bad as you are, you can't just stop this from happening. It's biological. And you can't tell me it didn't happen to you. You just can't tell me that. You have civilians that see something on TV

to get post-traumatic stress. You know, you get in a car wreck, you get post-traumatic stress. And that biological change, just or traumatic brain injury, the same thing, you know, creates suicidal ideation. It creates the whole, I'm nobody. And the depression sets in.

And then you start beating yourself up. And then you start feeling like, I'm the only one that fills this way. And that's more isolation and less telling of your story to people. And then you start thinking, well, nobody understands me anymore. Nobody gets me. No one will ever get me. That takes you down the path of suicide and suicidal thoughts and ideation, which we found out that the percentages of personnel of suicidal ideation is pretty high. The higher up levels of units that you go is daily. Talking to all the veterans and active duty that we've talked to can be daily. I want to run my car into the bridge. Just when you're angry, ending it,

ending that argument, any of that feeling is what pops up into your head. And so then we move into secondary post-traumatic stress. A lot of people don't even know about secondary post-traumatic stress. We call it the eggshell syndrome. Or when I go home or somebody goes home and they're behaving like they behave. You know, they're giving directions like they do at work and they're acting like everything that happens is going to be life or death. That's because your brain doesn't know any different. Your brain knows chaos, something out of order means death possibly.

So just because it's the kid putting the dishes and leaving it in the sink to you, that's chaos to you, that's wrong. That can't be right. And the reason it can't be, it's got to be corrected is because we could die if not. And that's what your brain thinks. So it takes years of therapy, years of coaching, and starting with the thing that affects you most, I believe. When I started getting help with post-traumatic stress, it was like a Transcendental Meditation.

One of those, I went to anger management first, and then Genoa's like, you should try Transcendental Meditation. I'm sure. Again, Transcendental Meditation. Transcendental Meditation. Transcendental Meditation. I went to anger management first and then Jen was like, you should try transiting meditation. I'm sure. Again, we'll try. Transcendental meditation. Transcendental meditation. Yes, basically more meditation to me.

I didn't know any difference and I was like, sure I'll try that. I was flirting with her. I wanted to marry her and it was one of those things. I'll do anything to not be a rude person. And so I started transiting meditation, which was a bit at the time woo woo for me. It was like, no, that doesn't a bit at the time woo woo for me. You know, it was like,

no, that doesn't work, but I'll do it for her. And I went in her sitting in front of this doctor and he's talking to me and he's like, okay, and it snaps his fingers, whatever it was. And he continued to talk and I was doing my thing and I just came back to him like, what happened? You know, what just happened?

How long has it been? He was like 20, 25 minutes, like you're kidding me. You know, your guy was like barking like a chicken or something like clucking and flapping around. He's like, no, no, no, you were just relaxing and we were talking. So that started it. That started my belief that you could do things.

And so I just kept going to change. You were talking in meditation? Apparently. Yeah. Well, under my breath, he didn't really tell me. He goes, you were just venting and I don't know if he could hear what I was saying, but it was one of those just, I don't even remember a lot of it.

I was like I woke up from a sleep. I don't know how to say it. But I was just staring at him like I'm staring at you. We were closer and then I was like, what happened? Because I knew at some time, it's like you were just resting. And then you find out that traumatic response, being biological, cause your body to twitch and shake and that your body releasing that trauma

that is stored up over the years. Supposed traumatic stress is biological, it's something everybody gets when they see a traumatic event, and it takes effort to get out of that, depending on the repetitive traumatic events. And then, and then stacked on top of each other. And then your fight flutter freeze never turns off. So you're always in fight mode.

And you have to work to reset that. You have to work behavioral change to reset and change how you behave as a human because you've grown used to that over so many years. And the secondary post-traumatic stress is when I come home and bring it and throw it over the family. Everyone has to walk around and we call it eggshells. She's in the where they're like, all right, I change who I am. So you don't become who you become. And so I'm no longer who I am as a spouse. I've become different. Just a cater to this issue that came home and spouses don't even know they do that until you bring it up. And then they have that awakening of, oh, I have changed who I am.

I have become somebody different. And maybe I should work on that. And then that can be the cause of people growing apart. You're no longer who you were when you met. Interesting. That's a great explanation. And now the secondary PTSD I've not heard of until you guys were talking about it last night. So thank you for enlightening

me. No one does everywhere we go. You know, we're to the point of we think we've been doing this for eight years and we think people know what's going on and every time we go to speak a military basis or anywhere post-traumatic stress share we've heard that that, how about secondary post-traumatic stress? Two or three hands are going to room a 300 and we're like, still? Where did you, where did you first hear about it? Studying research, probably Jen, just digging into what we were doing, we tell her, we're not the doctors, we're not the psychologists, we're the lighthouse. Come in, we've lived the story, we didn't study the story. And so it's one of those, we can talk about it. You know, what makes you professional?

How many years in college versus how many years of hands on? You know, so am I professional in post-traumatic stress? I'm a professional in having it and what not to do. And so I share that with people. Here's what I went through. Here's how I did try to get help and here's how that helped work for me. Will it work for you? Maybe.

But why not try it? Yeah. You know, it wasn't negative effects on me. So you should try everything until something works. You know, you wouldn't give up at work. So I try to get people not to give up at home. Yeah. You know, you said another, I think it was either you or your wife Jen, said another statistic last night that I didn't know. And I believe it was last night that I didn't know and I believe it was 140,000 veterans have committed suicide. On the high end, yeah. On the high end.

Compared to 5,653 ish, that number might be off a bit. I think it was 5,550 and then after the 13 Marines in the final jumped up, compared to the suicide over the same amount of time. You can be between 60 to 140,000 depending on who you've listened to. Of course, the government wants to lower that number. Through all the research and study, we know the people that actually dig into it, and it's a lot higher. That's a big problem.

And it's just, it's snowballing. Yeah. And so, well thank you for the brief. And I just, I want to paint a picture of how real this is before we dive into your story. But let's dive into your story now. Where'd you grow up? Yeah, I'm a Hoosier, Columbus, Indiana.

I was born in Seymour, Indiana, John Kuhr's town. And then, yeah, I grew up in Columbus, Indiana, with a little small town, Cornfield. You know, it's just one of those... Probably smaller in this town, really. Back when I lived in it, it was just the good old country, not even the country. I was in the middle of the country, and the city, as you would call it, you I lived in it, it was just the good old country, not even the country. I was in the middle of the country and the city as you would call it, you know, in Columbus

bit. Yeah, pretty normal private school life growing up. We went to Lutheran School first eight years, then moved, basically on where I lived, I went to junior high at one high school, and then I finished high school at another high school. So just moved around. L lived in the same place. It's just the way it's set up because I went to the private school for the first eight years.

Through me out of that public school system, so I had to join the public school system. And I didn't had zero plans in life. You know, it was like kids, I don't know the kids do. And start moving up to graduation, you know. I was like, what am I gonna do in life? You know, I had no idea. I just started swinging a hammer and building houses. Well, let's, before we get there,

will your parents, who are they? Oh, yeah, Steven Martha, they're both past now. My dad passed, and I think 18, and my mom passed probably of COVID before they knew of COVID. January 2nd of 2020. At Bet365, we don't do ordinary. That's why we've introduced

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Must be nice to be an older Ontario only. It's his favorite sponsor. If you are someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. Jacob's thing is mystery podcasts. He loves to go to do it. And when it comes to McDonald's, his thing is finding the exact right moment to steal a McNugget from his friend Sarah's Treg when she's not looking. At McDonald's, our thing is quality ingredients.

Like 100% Canadian-raised seasoned chicken in every chicken McNugget. Our thing and Jacob's thing together? It makes for a delicious mischievous game, even when he gets caught in the act of our Sarah. Quality. It's a McN a McDonald's thing. Shocking. And yeah, and that was, and I have a brother and a sister as well, on the youngest of the family. Reclose with them?

Try to be. You know, I spent 20 years, 25 years away from my entire family. And they pretty much lived in the same area their whole life. So they grew up visiting each other and seeing each other and still hanging out and growing old together really as a family.

And I was gone. I'm the guy that came home and visited at Christmas maybe every two or three years for two or three days. Told stories and I'm still alive, you know, and then back. We communicated and we were close. We were always close, but be a phone, letters, you know, communication. How about growing up? Yeah, my mom worked all the time.

She went to school all the time. She went to school all the time and worked. My dad worked all the time to help fill in that void for her going to school. And that was just, I think, a childhood event for her that created her to love the attention she got for good grades, that she didn't get at home in her family, so that kind of carried into her dull life of going to school all the time for that confirmation of I'm somebody. You know, my dad was a guy that would just support her. They met very, very young. Sixteen, maybe you're younger.

I mean, his whole life and both of them were only with each other their entire lives. Wow. You don't hear that very often. No, and they had us all very young too. So I get to imagine the struggles my parents went through, growing up to raise us as kids. You know, I look back on that now, as an it's an older person, it's an older person. And I'm so grateful, you know, for what they did and what they taught us.

What did your dad do? He was a tool and die maker. So he, you know, whatever that means. He'd make small parts of machine shops for engines and things for Cummins engine company. Okay. Where they make, I think a lot of the Cummins diesel engines and Columbus, Indiana.

So, he wouldn't make the smaller parts for that that they needed. And that's pretty much what he did his whole life. What were you into as a kid, running around and getting in trouble? I had a plane army in the woods, shooting each other BB guns, and bottle rockets through the downspouts of your, of your, you know, your, your, your gutters and stuff, trying to get more distance. And it went from the little army guys and blowing them up with firecrackers on the hill

to each other with beanie guns. And don't pop it up too much, yeah. And then shooting bottle rocks each other just to kinda, just to have fun. We had an empty lot next to our house. And it was just groan over and weeds and grass and trees. And we mowed like a path through it. So you couldn't see straight

in and then we cut out a circle and then put a tent up and that's where we'd spend all summer. Just in that tent. And you know, in the day we run around it at night, we'd run around even more. You know, just parents just let us go. I was a third, like I said, so they had done it by then. They knew I wasn't going to die and they knew we were going to break it. You know, I might break it, but I still wasn't going to die. And so they had settled down as a third kid. They're like, I gotta go off and have fun. You know, you'll come back one day. So that was pretty good.

Sports. Yeah. Yeah, I ran track and played football. I started out doing the speed thing. Like, oh, you're gonna be fast. You know, try to give me a high jump. I'm 5'10", you know. I think 6' was the highest I could high jump.

I was like, that's the limit. You got people high jumping. Way higher than that. So they moved me to the 110 high hurdles and the 330 low hurdles. And so I ran the hurdle race for a while. And that was killing me, short legs. I made it to regionals one time. But I was the only 5'10 guy there running that race.

I'm running with the dudes who knock every one of them over and still win, and I'm just trying to hop up and over these things as I run. Like, well, you're kind of stronger long distance, so let's do the one mile, the two mile, and then I moved into a cross country. And then I played football, but I wasn't very good at football.

I think I made one touch in on my life and it was probably an accident. And I was a guy that was a good defensive guy, right? I can block a pun or I can tackle somebody pretty good, but it was one of those, there comes the ball as a wide receiver. I don't know what to do with that thing when it gets here. And that whole mindset of, I'm gonna drop it,

and telling yourself you're gonna drop the ball and of course I drop the ball. So on the sidelines a lot. I gave basketball a try for a bit. What kind of trouble did you get in as a kid? You know, things like swimming in the river, jumping off the waterfall that I wasn't supposed to do because people drown there every now and then,

climbing on top of empty houses and jumping off. And then we would run around and take somebody's Volkswagen in their driveway and turn a sideway. You know, pick it up with a couple of friends and turn a sideways so they couldn't back it out without doing a hundred point turn, you know. Things like that, just kid fun, you know, corner cars and pushing it on.

Yeah, those little drink cups off the golf course that look like cones, would take a bunch of paper ones in line, I'm in the street like that at night and cars would come up and see, errr, and then realize their paper not spikes. You know, I'm like, eh, I went throw sand at them and take off running.

Did that took a cop once. Didn't realize it was a cop. Immediately, and lights on as we run up through the golf course trying to get away. Terrifying moment, but we kept going back. Ha ha ha. But nothing serious, no, no rests. No, no, no.

No gang activity, nothing like that, nothing. Small town. Was your dad, did your dad hit? Did anyone in their family have any interest in the military? My brother. My brother joined as a junior and he went to basic training in between junior and senior year

in high school. And when he was in senior year, I was a freshman or a sophomore. And I made fun of him. I came back at the haircut, it was all army ready to roll. And I'm like, I made fun of him. You're doing it, you're doing it, Miller, you're joined the army, you're so stupid.

I'm gonna go to college, you know, and had no idea. And his career went up until, he got diagnosed with a disease that he couldn't stay in anymore. So he was going to teach at West Point for a bit. He was a drill sergeant for a while. And I never thought that I would join them. Seriously, I ended up making fun of him. And he tried to make a career out of it and he would have.

And I could tell by the way, he still talks like he messes it. Somebody doesn't complete something that they wanted to complete. Yeah. And by no choice of theirs, you could. I could tell by the way he still talks, like he misses it. You know, when somebody doesn't complete something that they wanted to complete, yeah. And by no choice of theirs, you know, you could tell he's still. I was in his heart still. Well, what got your interest? A friend of mine, one of my best friends in high school

had joined the military. And I'm like, you're crazy, man. You know, I was like, I'm off to basic training. And then, you know, I'll be back in about two or three months. And so I'm swinging a hammer, you know, graduated high school, swinging a hammer building. And I was like, this is cool. I training and then, you know, I'll be back in about two or three months. And so I'm swinging a hammer, you know, graduated high school swing and hammer building. Now I thought, this is cool. I'll do this to rest of my life. And he came back from basic training and he was, we were on our way to John Cougar Council, driving in the car and he's telling me all about basic training and he's going to Germany and he's

going to have a good time and getting out of Columbus. And I thought, man, I'll never leave this town if I don't make this jump right now. You know, you kind of just gave me that boost. And that was like an hour, hour and a half drive at the most, that kind of changed my life of, I'm gonna do this on a whim. I'm gonna go in for four years, get some college money, get out, do some college, finish college, really.

Parents just started covering. Governing college, and college to me was a party, so they didn't work out. And so when he had that idea of he was going to Germany, I thought, man, I'm good, I get out of the country, I can go visit something for free, you know, I just got to go through a couple of months of whatever, you know, that sounds great.

And he's alive, so it can't be too bad. And so in that hour and a half drive, I decided I'd joined up there, went to the Mepp station and signed up for, that was probably late summer of 85 and I ended up coming in February 86. You gotta be kidding me. So you joined just to get the hell out of Columbus, Indiana. Yeah, that's it.

To go maybe to Germany and have a good time. $3,500 or whatever they were gonna give me for college back in the day, you know. You give us 1200, we'll give you 12,000 or whatever it was which I've never used. so I want my money back. But yeah, it was on a whim, it sounded good. And I had no plans to do more than four years. And I probably thought I'd do as little as possible

while I was in, you know, I had no idea what I was getting into. Wow, and that turned into a 25 year career, 20 of which a Delta. Yeah, I think I blinked and I was like, what happened? What happened, you know? I wasn't expecting that. There was a tell me your background

and how great your civil war of grandparents, you know, on a great gram, like nothing, nothing. I grew up thinking my grandpa, my grandpa, one of them was in bed on oxygen all the time, as I grew up. The other one was missing a leg and in bed all the time. And I don't know where the stories came from. He lost that on a landmine and he got that from mustard gas or something. Or, you know, I was like, oh, it's like told that story for years until I think talking

to my sister and brother, like, no, it was never in the military at all. I'm like, where did that story come from? Somebody told me something, you know. It's maybe the grandparents for spreading a little, just, I don't know, a little, just information out there, maybe. But I never considered it until that drive up. Wow.

Well, what did you join to do with the military? I was gonna be a medic. You listened to me. Did you look at all the branches? No, no. No, I walked into the recruiting station whoever jumped up and grabbed me. He was in the army, so I think I was heading towards the army.

I will be stationed together and I'll put him for Germany. And I got in there and it was, what do you want to do? What would be a medic? My mom was studying to be a doctor. She was going to school to do that and she ended up running hospitals administratively as a nurse. And I thought I'll get into medical fields. This would be the best way to become a doctor. I'm going to'm the medic in the army and they talk me out of that. Do you like the blow stuff up?

Like, that'd be great. You like to build things? I go, yeah, he goes, about combat engineer. I said, that sounds cool, right? I know now they need to fill a quota, right? And steer you towards what they need the most. Yeah. So yeah, I signed up to be a combat engineer and That's what they need the most. So I signed up to be a combat engineer. And it was my first visit to St. Louis to Missouri, you know, Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. I like to call it Fort Lost in the Woods. It was just, I remember being a tick field environment, heat, humidity, ticks, and drill sergeants that just chewed your ass every second of the day.

Oh, you went through basic at Missouri? Yeah. And what was it? Basic and OSU in one station, unit training. So I never left Missouri. your ass every second of the day. Oh, you went through basic at Missouri? Yeah, in a race. Basic in Osset, in one station, you're gonna train and so I never left Missouri. After basic, some people packed up, went to another post to learn their craft. What year is this? This is 86.

86. Yeah, and I stayed at the same place with the same drill sergeants who already knew how to shoot your ass. And half the group got to pick up and move out. And you know, you kept in touch with them, like, oh, it's like living in college, you know, you were in the barracks. We had to do what we want.

We got times. And I'm like, I'm still living basic training, man, you know. These guys are still treating us like shit. Then packed up, moved to Germany. I got two years in Germany. I was like, yeah, my buddy's over here, You know, so I went and visited him a couple times and I ended up getting married on the way to Germany. It's like one of those things I'll never see a girl again. I should get married right away, you know, I don't know what I was saying.

And then, Jen, later, it's like you didn't think there'd be girls in Germany. Claudia Schiffer, hello, and I'm like, well, you know, I was 18 or 19. I didn't think of shit. So one of those quick marriages that, yeah, I was a girl, I just started seeing for a little bit and we ended up getting married. And so that put me in Germany for three years. Okay. Show up with your spouse, you get an extra year. So I stayed in Germany for three years.

And it was one of those, you learn a lot in the regular military, you know, and it's great. And it's necessary and you learn a lot of what you don't wanna do anymore. Mm-hmm. And we had a Patun Sergeant that was a former Hungarian soldier and he knew a bunch of different places in Europe to go train. And he was pretty cool. He introduced us to French Commando School, a German Ranger School of Patun Comfort and Straining, which is taught by Green Beres and a bad told Germany.

And all of those things that I ended up doing and getting the taste of, I was like, I like this, this is more, more than motor pool Monday changing the oil. And, you know, because I was an APC driver. And it was fun. You know, as a kid, driving an armored personnel carrier, and, you know, doing all that,

but he gets old, the maintenance, the board, I mean, you never go anywhere, you don't do anything, there's no money. And then when you get a anywhere. You don't do anything. There's no money Then we get a little taste of more is like that's that's that's what I want You know that seems more of like I like to do the excitement that adrenaline and that's when I start leaning that direction Interesting At the day I figured it out was a day one of my close friends from basic training was over there as well And he had a picture of his dad holding him as a baby. And he's wearing his dad's green beret.

I thought, man, I want to do that. That's cool, and I want to do that. And that's what I set out to do. And I just took a bit to get there based on getting promoted fast in the regular army. And then not having primary leadership development course, which the green berets won't take you unless you have, but the regular army wouldn't send me

because I already made E5. Like what's in the E4s to help them make E5? You'll go later. And I'm like, well, I can't get the bonus, I can't get in, so I just had to take my own path. So I think I re-enlisted for jump school. Just so I can get to Fort Bragg somehow, which worked, and then I ended up

looking for the recruitment station on Fort Bragg, bound it right away and signed up. So you wanted to be a green beret to command wouldn't let you and so you just found my way. This is where they're all at. Yeah, found my way there and did it myself. The only thing I lost that was $20,000. You know, the reenlistment bonus and I was like kind of devastating back then, right? Yeah. Next year, 20 grand when you're making E5 pay, but... Well, what was the reenlistment for? It would have been reenlisting for the green braids.

They let you... They knew you were going to let me. Oh, but I didn't have that school, so that was the one thing holding me back. Regulary wouldn't send me there. So I just reenlisted for jump school. Okay. I got jump school, and then that sent me to Fort Bragg.

Gotcha. And that's where I started hopping and looking around for the recruitment station. How'd that go? It's pretty good. Went in there, and I mean, I was kind of easy, and it took a little time, and I was like, I guess I've asked Dave, you know, right here.

And then SFS was a nightmare in itself. You know, it was one of those introduction to a selection process. I remember I was being terrified the night before I went. It was one of those laying in the bathtub with a six stomach like what have I done? What's gonna happen? Your mind's going crazy.

Like they're gonna kill me. They're gonna stop me. I won't be able to make it. You know, I'll never do it. And I went and tried it and it was kind of fun. It was a nightmare, but it was kind of fun. Being tested like that and then passing each hurdle, you know, feeling a little bit better about yourself each time.

And it just gave me a taste of I want more, you know. I want more of this. And I'm grateful. You still wanted more. Yeah, yeah. It was, it was a dicting. Well, how long were you in service before you went to selection? For the green vera.

Probably about four years. Four years. About four years. Three years in Germany. So maybe three and a half years. Okay. And I was in selection. And then right after that, I went,

selection took me up to Christmas of 89. Or yeah, eight, 89 or 90. And then I had a little break over Christmas and that was when Panama happened. So that year, I went back home on vacation and Panama happened. I'm like, I'm missing a night of war. You know, I'm missing a war and you feel like, I didn't get to test my medal. I moved, I came out, Airborne Unit goes down to Panama and I missed it. I missed it.

And so I started the Q course early, early the next year, did the six-month-there, and then moved into language school for Persian Farsi. And no, I don't speak it. It was one of those four months of sitting there listening to some guy say some words, I'm like, man, this is not happening. This is not going to happen. You You know trying as hard as I could. One guy in class was doing his homework and like Cyrillic. Like that's the guy you need, you know, I wanted to learn Spanish or something. You know, I they're like Persian Farsi. I'm like, that means fifth group doesn't.

Middle East. You know, I'm thinking seventh group South America something, you know, back then you have your ideas of what's cool and what's not, based on no information. To me, seventh group seemed cool, fifth group, middle east, little did we know, right? Because I got the fifth group as they were deploying to the first Gulf War. As soon as I landed the fifth group, they all took off. And I stayed back because I had a selection date for the unit. And that makes you non-deployable. I'm like, number two, right? I'm freaking out. Number two, I just missed. I'll never go to war. I'll never get to go to war. So how long were you in? How long were you? A green beret before you

went to selection for Delta. Hmm. Two months. That's it. Two months. I was in language school and I had a couple, there were two unit guys that were going through the QCourse with me to change their MOS. Because when you're in the unit, you still get promoted based off your job title. Do you get promoted faster? Yeah. Probably.

You know, you pull your secret file over here and that makes everybody interested. Like, secret file, put him on top, you know, he's secret. And so it helps you, but they needed to change your M.O.S. because they're competing with the same people of their jobs. So they went to the QCourse to get promoted quicker. And that's when I met them, but I didn't know where they came from. They never told you, you know, and I was in language school. And they popped over at lunch break one day,

and like, hey, you need to call this number. You know, we think you have what it takes. We watched you in the queue course. We work over here. You think that'll be cool. You know, we're both from Delta and I was like, is it better than this? You know, is it cool? Like, yeah, yo, it's real cool.

I'm like, well, then I want that, you know? And he said, call this number. Let's go, okay, and I put him at pocket. He was calling now. I'm like, what? He'll call it now, it's recruiters, who just set up a time to come and give me a PT test and psychological evaluations before they accept you.

And so that started that process of doing that. I'd only been introduced to the unit, one of the time I was in Germany, and they had a recruiting briefing in the movie theater and Phil Flick in Germany. And it was free fives and above, and I was in E4 at the time. So I was probably in a year.

And I shrunk into the briefing anyway, and I sat down on this guy in a bad suit down on the front, you know, with one of those little circular projectors where the picture pops up and goes in, you know, you know, you're called anymore. And he's got it on a screen in the movie theater, and he's just standing there. And it's a full arena, you know.

And hits the little button and it pops up. And it's just a shitty picture of the earth, planet earth. Because this is our training area. And then clicks it back off. Any questions? And I was like, I want that, right? I thought they had back then. I go, I need that.

And then somebody raised their hands like, oh, do you get more pay in Delta? Because if you're worried about money, we don't want you. I'm like, I gotta have that. Hey, can you grow your hair along in Delta? If that's all you worried about, we don't want you. And I'm like, I love that dude.

I love that dude. He's calling people out on their dumb shit and you don't do that as much, you know? And the regular forces is just, you just don't do that. You don't call anybody out. He's calling people out, I'm like, man, he's saying it like it is. You know, he's telling them,

I don't want you, I don't even want to come be here. He said, they make me come do this. And I was like, I gotta work there. And then I forgot about it. You know, and then I saw the Greenberry picture, I'm like, oh, that's what I want. And so when they said, yeah, we came from Delta and we think you have what it takes to go to selection,

not to be in the unit, but to go to selection. You know, they're very clear about that. It's like, all right. You know, I'm still young, I'm like, sure. Well, did you ask them what they saw on you? The thought of it, they didn't even consider it. You know, I just, oh, I asked him, is that better than this? Because I'm not even here yet.

I'm still going to language school. And can I do this? Do I owe somebody anything? No, you can do anything you want. We'll do anything we want. And so that's when once they accepted me for selection, I finished language school and I had a selection day for that spring. It was not deployable.

Right? So I didn't know that. And so when they packed up, went to, you know, fifth group packed up, went to the first call for us. Like, man, I missed another one, you know. And so I'm back there with the SAR major, one of the SAR majors. And he's like, I heard you're going to Delta. You try on a selection. I go, yeah, I'm going to try. He's like, you don't make it. You're going to group engineers. And you're gonna be painting no parking signs your whole career. And I was like, oh shit.

He didn't, they don't want to lose people to Delta. And if I don't make it, I'm screwed, man. I'm screwed. I'll never have a career here now. He saw me like a month and a half later. And I was already painting, you know, you curved yellow and whatnot just because there was nothing else to do.

He come up and he's like, I told you you wouldn't make it. I told you you'd be in group engineer the whole time painting, parking signs and whatnot. I said, well, you did say that, sorry major, but you're wrong. I did make it. I'm only doing this until I leave here. And I think I left in like a week and a half packed up with a selection. And they were coming back. And when they landed, they were like,

hey, who are you? And I'm like, don't worry about it. Out the door, man. Where'd you go? I can second the time, man. I ended up spending all your, you know, your funds for the year in, by the way, and I bought you a bunch of shit, but I gotta go.

So like, you know, at the end of your funds, you got a spinner, you lose it. They dumped that in my lap. So I just bought a bunch of computers for those guys. I had no idea what to buy, you know. Yeah. I was nobody there. So I just spent all their money and then left. What was selection like? SFA S or unit? Unit. You know, I compared it to the unit was all individual. It was all self-imposed stress,-induced They didn't talk to you You know you get all your instructions from the chalkboard. The only thing they would talk to you about was take your instructions from the chalkboard Or do you need to see a medic? It was one of those things like no and I'll go see the chalkboard

And you know they treat you fair. They treat you right. They feed you well They teach you everything you can need to know. You could go to selection and not know anything. Not know what the boots to buy, not know how to pack a Rucksack. We literally teach everything you need to know. How to read a map from one over the world all the way down to a one meter grid zone.

And now that's a class just a fuck with your head, right? It's like a six hour class that you have to memorize to teach. Every class has to be memorized and taught exactly as memorized. And so whoever gets that class, the one over the world, it's just, we know that's the nightmare guy. He's going to study for two months to give that thing. Burbata, I'm going to word for word now. If you practice in front of the selection,

start major for the students come. And that's a nightmare. But selection was just an individual assessment of your stress and your decision making while under stress. And Lan-Nav is one of those under time as one of those things that creates stress on you. You know, that competition against yourself, against the clock when you don't know the time standards. It's just your next RV is.

Your next RV is and you think you got it down. You's just your next RV is, your next RV is, and you think you got it down. You're like yesterday it was two, today it was three, tomorrow before, and then tomorrow's five. And you're like, oh, you throw it you off, you get it the fourth one, you're like, how's that fifth one? Oh, it's sixth one, you're like,

and they throw you off, you know, and they just keep adding weight, they keep adding distances, and you just keep dropping people. And you don't know who you drop. You know, when you move into selection from admin, where there's an admin phase, an instructional phase, and then the field phase, the stress phase.

And instructional phase is instructors are talking to you. They're taking you around, showing you land nav. This is a hilltop, that's a saddle. Here's a do-resection, intersection, and everything. And you're walking, they're giving you tips. They're showing you drink water while you're walking, so you don't stop, you know, you jog down hills, you walk uphill, you rest while walking.

Just everything that you could ever want to know about how to walk up a mountain day after day, after day with a hundred pound of rock on your back. And then when you get the meal with the steak and lobster that night, you know, it's about to change, you know, and you get up the next morning, it issue you that orange rifle with no slang on it, saying if you lose this rifle, you're done. You know, a lot of guys would set it down on a tree, plot their map, and take off,

because you didn't have the rifle for the first two and a half weeks. As soon as you go to selection, here you go. You get that orange rifle that doesn't do anything and so many people just set it down and forgot, habit and take off. Where's all your equipment? What were your instructions about reporting into RV? And you're like, well, here's where I'm at.

Here's where I came from. What were your instructions? Pull them out and read them. All right, you pull them out and read them. Report this and then here's how you do it and report them with all your equipment. Because where's your weapon? Your face just explodes and you turn around. You have to go have any miles back to go get your weapon

freaking check into that RV which digs into your time which ends up cutting you out of the out of the process. Yeah. So it's just a additional weight additional miles each day up until the long walk in the end. It's that you're heaviest weight, that you're least amount of strength remaining and you do the 40 mile hike. And then you go through the process of the shrinks, grilling you in the board process.

Before we get there, how long this is early on, how long had Delta even been around by the time you went to selection? 70, 77? I'll give you a minute. Only about 10 years. Yeah. Maybe a little bit more. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they still do that today from what I understand. They do. They haven't changed selection since it started minus two things that I know of. They moved the swim test to the end of OTC because it's a learn school. But they originally put it into selection because you have to cross streams and one person had drowned crossing streams. So they either, I don't know if they added it then

or it had always been there, but they kept it there and then they realized, well, it's a teachable skill. So we'll do it at the end of OTC. If you can't swim by the NOTC, then you're out. And then they removed one of the RV points that the only difference was, the elevations all the same, but there's two different lanes sometimes.

And this lane went up top of the hill, which I was in that lane. And when you get to the top, there's a guy in a tuxedo sitting at the table with a candle opera and a steak dinner from the night before playing opera music. And you're like, looking at like, okay, whoa, okay, is this the right place?

You know, am I here? Come on over and I'll check in, you'll leave. But the other lane didn't see that. They just had a regular RV. So they took that out saying it wasn't fair. It might have altered something, but they're always trying to be fair. They're always trying to remove your excuses of why you didn't make it. You know, if I'd have had or if I, you know, try to remove all that,

take away everybody's excuse. And so whenever you hear somebody not make selection, they either quit or they were pulled for time or injuries. You hear all the stories and, well, they took me, but then I told them, I don't want to do it on my own, did they know? After all that work, you decided after the fact you wanted to quit. You know, after they accepted you, chances are they didn't accept you.

How many guys has just started selection with roughly? Probably 90 to 100. How many made it? My class, I think, sshh. Maybe 16. Maybe. Maybe. They've had class with one guy made it.

They had classes with one guy made it. Yeah, they won't take you unless you make it. One guy made that class. And of course, he didn't start OTC. You know, that six month period, he waited till the next six month period. So he had to stick around the unit for six months of none to do. But yeah, they won't, they don't fill a number, they don't fill a quota, only if you make the process. And then you make the board with the psychological evaluations. And then they tell you, you know, 18 month

probation after OTC, and then they tell you selections and ongoing process. Yeah. And you're like, oh, every day, every day. How many, I mean, 10 years into the roughly a decade, it's been around, how many guys that even cycled through or what was the, hmm, you know, I was OTC 27 and they did two a year. Well, they do two a year. Did they do two a year back in the day?

Probably not. There's still guys around from OTC 1 and you know, it's talking about the numbers. The other day on a little chat group. It's like, hey, what number? I forgot my number. It's always stuck with me just 27, which means probably what, 13 years into the organization. But, what was the question about that? What was the, how many people, I don't even know.

How many operators were at the command, or how many squadrons were at the command at that space of time? Three? Yeah, and I think they just started up the third one. Oh, I don't know how long before that. Yeah, I don't know how long. And that's a squad.

I went to C squadron, but that's the newest squadron at the time. So at the end of selection, you get this stake in lobster dinner. Yeah, well right in the middle of it. Right before they send you to the woods because you look at barracks the whole time. Yeah before they send you to the woods, because you know the barracks the whole time, yeah, I didn't bring that up. You're in the barracks the whole time. And then that morning when you wake up, you get your new weight and they hand you that rifle

and you grab all your new maps. They drop you off that evening and you spend the rest the nights in the field and they have three different base camps and they mix people up all the time. So you think people were pulled or cut, you don't see your people that you've seen before that gives you that good feeling.

You just see new people everyday, and you're like, oh, so it's almost a quitter got cut, you know, and you just start, it could bring you down if you let it, you know. Yeah. You think, oh, he didn't make it well, how, if he didn't make it, I'll never make it. So, I don't know if they do it to be good,

or they do it to kind of mix it up, mess with your head. It's all I'm sure it's all thought through. But there's only a few people that know those numbers, that know the timelines, that know. At any one time, there's only one or two people that know that process, and they don't ever give it up. I never knew it. We thought we had it.

You would figure it out. You'd be listening to the radio as guys roll in, and you're waiting to pick them up in the truck and take them back. And you get to know these guys, you know, over the month that you're with them. And we're all sitting around the radio, like, oh, I'm blue 32s, checking in the RV, and you're getting ready to do the time standard if he's gonna go to the base camp or to the barracks,

you know, which trucks are you going in the go, or no go truck? Well, cause this guy's definitely a go. He's been kicking ass the whole time, and he's a tango Sierra, a time standard, moving over to the other truck. Well, how's that possible? You know, none of the guys, a shit bag. He hasn't made anything on time, Roger, he's good to go,

move him on. So whatever that cumulative time is or whatever, it works out in the end, you know. Interest worked out in the end. I don't know, it's done pretty well over the years. Yeah, seems like it. So what, how did they let you know that you did pass that you're gonna go to OTC? You sit in front of a board of all the SAR majors, all the commanders, all the shrinks, unit commander units are majorier. And then whoever else wants to sit in the room

to stare at you. And you're in one chair in front of them on a little stage. They just go around the room and grill you and ask you questions. just, you know, what's it like to be in CO or you're going to mission and it's a no-fail mission and you got a six-man team and you know, on the way and one guy freaks out, you know, what do you do?

You know, some guys like, Kelly, I'm in Barry, I'm in continue with a mission. Other guys like, pull the mission, you know, neither of which meet a criteria. So they're looking for that thought process. I'm like, I don't know, I'd mark a digit, leave a guy with him, go continue the mission if I met minimum force and come back,

pick him up on the way out. You know, like, whatever. But now all the other questions, and then in the end, like, I step out in the hall, and then they do their little mind-melting amount. He's a shitbag or he's good to go, because I've sat on those boards three times now. So I know the other side. And then they call you back in, you know, after whatever length of time it takes and you sit back down the chair and then you start looking at you and seeing what happens.

And I remember they told me, you know, you're young. You're very, very young. And I remember some of the guys telling me going through selection had gone through it before. Hey, don't worry if they don't take you, you know, they'll just take you to go out and get more maturity or grow up or learn some more stuff and come back and I'm like, I'm never coming back this way. I'm never doing this again. This is too hard. I don't want to do it again. So I was terrified I would have to do it again. And if you make it, they don't make you do it all again, right? You do, you know, shorter road march in any valuation still. But I didn't know that the time. I thought, I'm not repeating this, this is hell on earth. He said, you know, but we think you have what it takes.

We think you know what it's like to be a leader in an NCO. I was like, that sounds kind of good. You know, but you're so young, you're one of the, one of the youngest we brought in if we bring you in. And I was like, this is it. This is it. And I just started dying inside.

How old were you? No, 23? 23. Yeah. And I just sat there and then one of them was like, yeah, but we think you have what it takes. So welcome to Delta. I'm like, huh? What?

I'm just sitting there. I want to start making this jump up. We gonna become friends down there. He's like, just come on man, relax now. I said you were 12, browser 12, bro, we're two, friends down the road. He's like, just come on man, relax now. He said you were 12 bras or 12 bravo, too. I'm like, huh? It's sorbator, you know, it's like relax.

You're in, you made it, you know, you're at least for now. And I was like, oh my God. Send me back to the barracks. And there's like five people left, maybe in the barracks to go through, because I was one of the in guys. And a bank of payphones, you know, and I'm like getting your dial in home, you know.

Yeah, I made it, like what, I made it. And I hang up, you know. So you don't give up too much, you know, I know'm like getting her dialing home, you know, I made it like what I made it Hang up, you know, so you don't give up too much, you know I know they're listening to all these phones right whether they were not So we ordered pizza We're like hey, you remember the maps that are close to us, you know There was like five of us left in the barracks we got on the pay phone and we started finding like on the maps that we navigated with Oh, it's there's a town here. It was called that town of fine for pizza. We accept pizza delivered to the barracks, which no one's allowed to be down on that end. There's little road barriers that keep you from driving down there. So I just go past the road

barriers and keep on coming where the last barracks on the end delivered a couple pizzas to us. But I'd already made a sentence and I can't care about the other guys what they thought, but they were all in. So yeah, and it was just one of those. Wow, moments in your life, you know, and then I guess the first call. My wife, your wife, did she have any idea what Delta even was? I don't think she gave a shit anyway. It was like, uh-huh, okay, you've been gone a lot, you know, you're going to stop going to schools now because I went jump school. Then I had to go to PLDC, then SFAS, then the QCourse, and then Advanced Non-Commissioned Officer Course, then Language School,

then Selection. And then I had another six months ahead of me. Yeah, she's like, great. Great. Are you home now? I'm like, sure, six months I'll be in school. I'll be home every night. And it's not true. It wasn't true at all.

Yeah. And so that just kept going, you know? But it was, I should have learned then in one of those fleeting moments of that, I did it, man, oh my God. And the next day it's like, well, what? Not what? No big deal, right?

It's everything passes so fast. What, we're gonna take a break here in a second, it right? It's everything passes so fast. What we're going to take a break here in a second, but I just have one question and that is during your interview process, what was, what questions took out to you the most if you remember them? It was the one about leaving someone behind. If you had a team and you had a no-fail mission, you had to do the mission. It was I racked my brain. I was like, there's probably no answer to this one.

There's no good answer. And so I just took the middle road. Like, I can't dive all in here. I certainly didn't think about burying the body, killing him, burying the body. You know, it was like, he was at a stress freak out, it's what it was. You know, he freaks out. He's just mentally unstable all of a sudden. It's funny that they forgot about that now

and doing what I do. It's weird. And I just thought, well, I have to leave them there with one other person. And if the minimum force was four, if they didn't give you all that information, I'd go complete the mission and come back and pick them up on the way out, which is bad tactics to exit the way you came in anyway.

But it seemed to work. It wasn't as harsh as bearing the dude, but I mean, that's the one I remember. You know, that one and tell me your hardest in-sci-o story, because a lot of guys go through there from the Rangers or SF. They haven't been leaders yet, really. You know, they've been coming up on a team,

but it's a while to be a leader on one of those, you know, in one of those organizations. I came from the regular Army straight, so it had already been a squad leader, you know, and I did deal with families. I did deal with issues. And so my story to him was, you know, what was your hardest and see a moment? And the hardest thing to do with it, I thought about it, I was like, it's families, because they don't get what's going on. And if the husband doesn't tell him, you know, they come in and yell at me as their leader.

And I have to deal with this wife who's angry screaming at me about her husband. I'm like, I'm marriage counselor now. I don't even know what I'm doing. You know, then I go talk to dude, I keep your wife from coming into work, man. Because I want to deal this shit, you know, no. I'm gonna go home and fix this shit, man. I don't want to deal with that ever again. It was a terrifying moment for me.

I know, and she was a big girl too. And I told that story, and they were like, and I think that's what gave them that we think you have what it takes to be an NCO. I think you get it. Cause maybe a lot of guys didn't get it. NCO is I'm a charge of all these other dudes, and I'm like, the hardest thing I dealt with was a spouse,

and she was angry, you know? And I don't know what to do with her. I can't order her to shut up. You know, I just had to sit there and listen. Yeah. So I think that was one of the, you know, I remember that one too, that they had asked me that one.

Well, thanks for sharing that. Let's take a break. Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan Show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes, and leave the Sean Ryan Show review. We read every review that comes through, and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show.

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Alright, Tom. So you made it through selection. You're getting ready to class up and go to OTC, correct? Yes. What is the, how long does it take between finishing selection and class enough for OTC? Maybe about a month and a half. Maybe maybe two months. I think I might have gotten there early. I think I got there a month and a half. I wanted to get out of fifth group. I had to get up quick. And I was there a bit

early before they started. And I ended up, they had the Memorial Court, they were changing and altering the landscape coming in there. So I ended up breaking a lot of the Memorial Court and building up some of the berms that are there now. So I was, it was pretty good, I got to do that. Early on, but I just took me back to being a more court later, but yeah, early on.

And it was, yes, I think in normally two months is that break, because you do it spring and fall for selection so the weather's similar. Okay. And what I learned for all your listeners out there when I do this, what I learned, at least what I learned, because I've heard people love the fall. I love the spring more, right?

It's getting warmer. There might be snow in the ground, but you don't go to the field till the end of selection. So the chances of it being or less and less and less, there's no leaves on the trees. So you can see the terrain a lot further away and you can read your map better, you know, with the terrain association.

We're in the fall, it might go into snow when you're in the field, or at least crappy cold weather. There's still all the leaves on the trees and other than the ones that are falling, you know, so you can't see the terrain and then all the leaves that have fell cover up all the logs and rocks that you twist your ankles on. Spring is a bit wetter, you know, but I just, I just used to walk and think, not time to change the water in the boots and splash to another trail that was a creek actually, you know, an eight mile long trail that was an eight mile long creek. Just they were

now the time to change the water in the boots because it just doesn't matter anymore, man, you know, it's just a tough walk. I determined the spring was the best time to go just for a visual seeing the terrain, really. Yeah. What was the anticipation like for you? Were you confident going into OTC? Were you, I was getting there. Yeah, I had a lot of self doubts, but I'd made a couple selections. I'd gone through a couple courses overseas.

I was terrified. Now of the unknown, I didn't know what to expect. I thought I'd be judged harshly. It'd be too hard, I wouldn't make it, I'd fail. But I just kept going. And they ease into it pretty well. So I mean, they do it pretty well. And you're taught by other operators.

In their 16 of you. Yeah. And we're broken into four teams. My Bob was on my team. Bob Poros? Yeah, I was on the team. No shit. Yeah. You guys were on together. Yeah. That's awesome. Will White and God. I think Danny Nichols was our four-man team. Yeah, and it just starts out pretty, pretty chill. A little briefings

on how to dress and what to wear, and you know, not look like an idiot from an old 1970s book, they needed a change. So you didn't look like an idiot when you put on those clothes. But you know, that's that generational change that guys up in the baby blue suit trying to tell you how to dress

and with dress for success book and stuff, you know, and then I'm like, but you're in a baby blue suit, man. You know, I thought that went out in the 60s or 70s. So we go buy our own stuff. But any ease in the BRM basic rifle marksmanship, you know, and just starts all over, like, like selection, you might be the best shooter in the world, you know, but they start back at the basics. Because that's how you become a good shooter, right?

Do the basics well. So because you thought they were great, they brought everybody back down to and pull the trigger, laying down on the prune in the bag, put a penny on your front side, it's back in the day. Pull the trigger, the penny falls off, you suck. I'm like, man, I did this in basic, man. So it starts off slow and you feel confident doing things and then it ramps up and you pick up.

But yeah, then anticipation. It was pretty cocky in selection, because I felt good. I didn't get lost, I felt good, and one day I got lost. And terrified, I mean, I took off running the whole time, and luckily I ran in the right direction. But seriously, lucky.

It was, I got terrified. You know you're going down a finger and then you end up down this finger and you make it fit and you make it fit. You make it fit. Now you're two miles away from your RV and I'm like, oh my God, I'm running out of time. Took off running terrified but made it.

So it's pretty confident. I used to go into RVs. Once I see the RV truck, I'm like, all right, stop. I pull out a comb and I comb my hair. Drive my face and I'd go storming in even though I was a miserable wreck outside the RV and I'd go storming in. Here's where I miserable wreck outside the RIV and I go storming in. Here's where I came from, here's where I'm at, all right?

Your next RV's on the hood of the track, plot it, come back, here's where I'm at, here's where I'm going. Have a good one, I take off, drink a cup of water out of there, little thing, take off in the middle, you know, off into the wood line and fall down, go where the f*** am I? And where am I going man? I don't have no idea. Half the time I take off in the wrong direction and then I was too embarrassed to cut back to the RV because, you know, when I was an instructor, I'd time I take off in the wrong direction and then I was too embarrassed to cut back to the RV

because when I was an instructor, I'd see someone take off in the wrong direction. I'd call in on the radio, hey, blue 42 went off in the 180. And they're like, oh God, we're gonna be heard. I ate a clock, looking for him. So I would run all the way around the RV to go back in the right direction.

And then I'd get to the next RV and I'd stop, come my hair and go back in. And then I didn't know that that mattered and I'd stop, come my hair and go back in and then I didn't know that that mattered. I just didn't want to look like, oh, I just shoveled and go in and nasty for some reason. And I got to read my Cadre comments years later. I didn't even know they had them. You got comments from selection in there?

Is it kind of see mine, you know? This candidate knows all capital. He will make this course. This candidate is very cocky slash confident. And I'm like, oh my God, I was a dick one. And it was all a fake, it was all a show to look like I knew what I was doing. And it worked, I guess. All the damned.

But yeah, I was scared, but I was too cocky at the time. I mean, it's selection again. I know everything cocky at the time. I made selection again. I know everything. And then you realize you don't know shit, but they teach it to you slow enough that it kind of breaks it to you easily, that you don't know anything. How are you treated?

Well, you know, it's a personality thing, because you get people back from squadrons, and it used to be, used to be. You know, back in the days, all people would send the shit. The people they didn't really want or that weren't working out, maybe, that send them to be teachers and instructors at places. And then they, the unit at least realized we're sending people that people don't want to teach our new people. It's not going to work out. So they changed it to, you can't send anybody to be an instructor unless you want them back as a leader. One step higher.

Makes a lot of sense. So, you know, it's a good guy going to selection, but nobody wanted to go to selection. Yeah. So that's send, you know, here, the guys that aren't really, not that they're bad, right? Just not as good in that place. It's like when people don't make it in the unit or they end up leaving the unit for whatever reason, they don't kick them out. Like, you're horrible, we hate you. It's like, where else do you want to go anywhere? You're just not for here, but we'll send you anywhere else

that you love. We'll take care of you. So, they ease you into everything. It's kind of professional. The way that they ease you into, you don't know shit. You know, and it takes me all the way to when I finished OTC, and I made that board with the Sardinators, and then they picked a squad and I went in,

and I met my team leader for the first time, was on his way out the door to Beirut for four months. It's okay, here's Tom, your new guy. He looks at me. Good, you got a lot to learn, and he turned the left. I was like, he hates me. That's great, he hates me, you know, and I didn't see him for four months. But he was right, and that a lot to learn.

Well, let's rewind before we get there. So you're in selection, they're treated pretty good. What, I mean, the unit had only been around for, what did we say about 13 years at this time. So what kind of experience are you, what kind of experience do your Spirriers have? If you're instructors, what have they been involved in? I considered myself taught in the era of maybe Vietnam, but it bets Maybe via non-bedded bets ish on you know, um

I considered a little old school in p5's grease guns My introduction to close quarter battles was Okay, open the door walk into this room everybody take your point after teaching on the chalkboard blah blah blah You know left right left right opposite-hand friendly. This is your point of domination This is yours, you know opposite opposite-room, see that? Everything's 360, it's 360, but now here's down-range. Now look at all these targets. And I looked at all the targets, they all had guns. Everyone had guns in their hands.

You guys see these, you know, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go back out and do it live. Like, you don't wanna run through this cup times more, you know? Walk, crowd walk around, he's like, now we're gonna run. Load him up, you know? Load it up in P5, and here we are, chalk, walk, 100 miles an hour, you know? I'm like, we load up, open the door, we all go in,

crack, crack, crack, crack, shout everyone on. Yeah, I'm standing there, you know? This is the best easy job ever. That was easy. He comes in and goes, how are your shots? I'm like, two to the head, man, just like on the range and he goes, how are your shots? I'm like, two to the head, man, just like on the range, you know, how about back here? Oh, two right in the face, man, awesome. Why? We mean why? Why'd you shoot him? Because you're

not one target in the room had a pistol in his hand. They changed every target out. He goes, that's one. Next one you're done. To everybody in the room. I almost start crying. I was like, oh, we're gonna kick that here. If I ever shoot a no shoot again, I'm done. And they minute, you were gone. And so that slows you down.

Like that last look, you know, that last, I stopped looking at faces so I can shoot some in the face and I started looking at hands. Some of my shots started going down to where the hands were, you know, that last I stopped looking at faces so I can shoot some in the face and I started looking at hands. Some of my shots started going down to where the hands were, you know, the bullets and you follow up with the final shot. But it's a big lesson to learn, but it was a transitional period of, I don't think the instructors knew how to instruct as well. Go do it. Okay, how?

Just do it, you know, like we did. Because a lot of those guys had made it up in the beginning. You know, now their instructor is teaching. And so I called it the transitional period. You know, and then after when I went back to instruct, it was in force. And here's how you see QB. And I'm going to walk you through it. And we're talking of the instructions, you know, my opinion, so much better to teach, you know, and I learn more about it by teaching. That's for sure. But yeah, that transitional period of the

old school guys and the way they thought, and me being one of the newer guys coming in one of the younger dudes, even even in my own OTC class, I was one of the younger guys and their older been an arrangers for best son. I'm playing catch up. I'm playing a lot of catch up on. I didn't spend my year shooting on the range because we didn't have money in the regular army. I didn't spend, I didn't know. I mean, I knew Demo, as I was a combat engineer, and I'd done it in the QCourse as a 18 Charlie as well,

so that made that easy, because I knew the math, and that's when everybody's studying. But now, I'm in a place where I'm not better, because I don't have any of that training of marksmanship, CQB, I had no idea what that was, all that special op stuff. I just said, didn't have a clue. So that was like drinking from a fire host, but I loved it. I was young.

It was cool. We got to go to cool places to train, learn how to drive from professionals. Like, man, this is awesome. I mean, you were tired out of there as a command sergeant major, correct? Yes. And so you've seen, I mean, you've seen an evolution of 20 years of development.

A big couple. How does OSTC compare now to when you went through, what has to be night and day? My last two years at the unit, I went over to range 37 with your SF organization that teaches the Charlie elements. It's like a mini OTC. And one of the generals had wanted to reconnect

because we broke the connections we were at war for a long time, obviously. And so we had lost that connection with range 37 where we draw a lot of people from the Charlie, you know, the Charlie companies of the SF guys. They're the higher element, higher trained element, you know, that have gone through range 37 training, which is more CQB and more shooting and things like that, at a smaller scale. We kept failing a lot of people and CQB for safety, doing things different than we do it, not on a same properly,

different than we do it for safety things different than we do it. Not, I don't understand properly. Different than we do it for safety reasons, why we do it. So I went over there my last two years to try to reconnect, teach shooting and CQB to up that level of passing on the other end. I'm so broad as much as we knew from CQB. I took that element over to do some hits on the compound. You know, like, I can get us in, I know people. You know, I said we go and we do some hits on the compound. You know, like, I can get us in.

I know people, you know, I said we go and we do some hits on the compound, but first there was a squadron that had to run through the POW camp and do their hit first as squadron training. So I'm standing in the POW tower in the middle of this thing, you know, looking down and watching, I'm like, hey, let's watch these dudes do the hit. And it probably been a year I'd been away from that, even though I was still assigned there and it's less than a mile up the street, I've been away from all that for, well, as our major probably a lot longer than that, right? And I watched them go through and I was terrified, literally terrified

of how fast they were going through. I had forgotten how fast it can be, going room to room to room to room and you're done. You know, when you're doing students so often and seeing a different element, so it kind of terrified me as to how fast it was. Well, everything looks unsafe, you know. And so I realized that evolution. Or I realized how fast and dangerous it really was and why those little things really mattered the most. And that kind of made my job even more important over there, teaching those little safety things. So it'll take that pause before you take a shot.

There's no reason to be in a rush to die. I don't run into the room. How to pie things off better, how to do it. Just those little things to make you think differently. I mean, do you have a lot of, with the things that you've been involved in, I mean, you have, I don't want to say manipulated, but you have molded the unit into what it is today by

all the lessons learned and everything that you've been through. I mean, it has to be a tremendous sense of pride that you had that much input, whether you want to believe that. Right. That was going to sound like that. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

When I left there, I didn't feel good. I didn't feel like I'd done that much. I think we'd look at the unit like the unit gives you more than you ever give it. I thought that early on and I looked back, I'm like, no, that unit took everything I had, literally. But then I gave it everything I had, really. That's the honest truth. I gave it everything I had. So it wasn't that the unit took it. I willingly handed my life over, over and over again, to be there. I don't know that I ever thought that I changed anything other than by our actions, I can simoleure the book on Urban Warfare. Why? I don't think we were designed

to do that, right? We weren't. We got caught and stuck. And so we didn't really know we hadn't practiced, had a dominated corner, Urban Warfare. We just did took what we took, stopped where we had wounded. So big events like that. The helicopters hovering overhead and getting shot down. And then I saw it being repeated 15 years later in Iraq. It's like you guys are forgetting these lessons, you know, bring extra water.

Never leave your nods behind. Um, don't circle the target and let everybody in town know exactly where you're at. You know, punch out and do something further out. Call them back in. It only takes a minute to get them back in or three minutes. It's, it can be a long time under fire, but at least your helicopter still flies. You know, um, so learned a lot of valuable lessons that I've tried to pass on that I learned individually.

But no, I never thought that I did anything grand, that I'd ever changed the unit. I don't even think I've considered that. Well, grand or not grand, you know what I mean? It's 20 years of evolution as you're part of it, man. It's like a career. It's like a whole military career in one and then five extra years added on that.

But I was done at 20. Literally was 19, I couldn't wait to get out. Well, we'll get there. I was just curious, a question popped in my head. So, so you get, let's wrap up selection. Finish up selection, or I'm sorry, not selection, OTC. And what happens at the end? How do you know you made it?

You go through like the, you know, the sear kind of training. That's the last thing you do. Stick you in the box for three or four days, you know, treat you like shit. And then you come get, you get rescued by a squadron. They bring you in and your rags and, you know, the hand you drinks and treat you like shit, and then you come get you get rescued by a squadron. They bring you in in your rags and you know the hand you drinks and treat you like they just rescued you from the

enemy and they bring you back in and repatriate you with the American flag. And uh and then you're done. It was kind of like that's it that's the end of it huh. We're done. We made it and then there's another board with all the serve majors to decide if they want you or not. And they get to chat with you about life. They get to read all your evaluations and how well you did and different things. And then they argue over who's gonna get who personality was and then they ask me,

how do they do it? Is that a draft? Yeah, I had a friend in A Squadron. Who needs what? I didn't know then, I know later now it's a draft like see squadron needs more people. They get more pick. In what order? Who knows? I'll fight that out. But when they asked me, what squadron would you like to go to? I had to pause. I'm like, well, there's a star major from every squadron here right now. If I say one, the other tier gonna hate me. My answer was, well, I don't really have a particular squadron, I wanna go to, but I do have friends in a squadron,

so that would be the only reason I pick a squadron. Okay, cool, you're gonna see. Look, all right, thanks. Why the fuck can ask me? You already knew where I was going, but you wanted to see what I would say about it. Just another little stressor, but they're f**king with you by then.

You know, you're kind of in with you by then, you know? You're kind of in, you're kind of part of a family that they know where you are, you know? I looked at them like, you guys made it up as you went through. You were like, OTC one, let's shoot today. Yeah, you did a good job, you passed. You know, I'm like, you guys made it up.

It's doing great now that you've built it up, but when you went through, it's like, yeah, we're all done now, we graduate. Let's go do missions, you know? But once it's professionalized, right? And, hey, let's say I had this. Well, let's say I had that, you know? And then, you know, that grows, right?

It always grows. And so, yeah, it was one of those, I don't want to say what squadron, man. And I did, and then it went somewhere else, and I'm like, I'm so, you know, but it was great. C-Squadron, that's a great squadron. I don't know that I'm glad I went to C-Squadron, you know, but it was great. C-Squadron, that's a great squatter. I don't know that I'm glad I went to C-Squatter, you know?

I'm very similar to A, have those personalities. What is the, we'll always hear that there are different, there's different personalities to every squatter and over there. What, can you describe it? Yeah, easily. A-Squatter is kind of a chill, surfer vibe vibe if you will

Beast quartering Rangers You can kill it, you know, you see somebody walking the be squadron down on the other day night This eye contact half a mile hallway all the way down to get close Hey, be squadron guys the be squadron wave a look away, you know, I was like really it was just the joke and then B squadron guy, that's the B squadron wave. Look away. I was like, really? It was just a joke. And then C squadron was kind of like the good time party squadron, the work hard. And then the fourth squadron, which I stood up, was kind of like a mix of all three, which is Hill on Earth. I'm trying to get three different types of people to three different elements of people to agree on the same shit. Do you guys transfer back and forth from squadrons at all or is it you go there and you're pretty much there?

Not really, by exception. Okay. We've had a couple people switch. Like the fit wasn't right, you know, and we're either gonna get rid of you or I don't know, you know, you're good dude, but the fit and like another squadron, I'll take him. Like, yeah, okay, little transfer over and then they do know, you know, you're good dude, but the fit and like another squad, I'll take him. Like, yeah, okay, little transfer over,

and then they do great, you know. So if it's a personality thing, they might move you to see because your skills are still there. Okay. Now if you don't have those skills, that's might be a good reason to just send you on your way, you know, somewhere else. But it didn't happen that often.

How were you received when you went over to see? Mm. Cautiously. Very cautiously. Like, people look at you like, you're gonna make it. You know, they're friendly. Like my team leader, you got a lot to learn by.

And it was like, oh my God. You know, but that was him. You know, I moved fast forward to Samoa. I asked him that question about, we're gonna make it? I don't know, and he leaves. I'm like, damn, that was him. You know, move fast forward to Samoa, and I asked him that question about, we're gonna make it? I don't know, and he leaves. I'm like, damn, that was a perfect time for motivational speech, you know?

Not just, I don't know, but that was who he was. But, you know, my two IC and three IC at the time, and then I was the fourth guy, right? That was the size of the team, four, and one took off, so we had three, and that's what I spent my first three or four months working with. And then you know six months later you get another dump from OTC and we got two guys on that dump. So we ended up having six for a little bit. But it's never been really full. Teams have never really been all the way full because it's just it's hard to find those people

you know to fill those teams, to meet that criteria and stick with it long enough and then don't cut. When you get in there, I mean, do they consider you, I mean, they can't consider your seasoned operator because you're not one. No, they don't like you. They don't let you do much.

For 18 months, you're kind of monitored and trained. And then you come out of OTC thinking you can kick ass. Like I'm the man, I'm so good now. I'm gonna show these new guys what's up, or show the squadron what's up. And you get there and they're, let's go do some shooting and they're destroying this target. And you're like slowly destroying the target.

And they're destroying like mirrors and shit riding from horses. Not really, but they're very good. And you're like, oh my gosh, I do have a lot more to go. And then let's go do CQB and you're doing it very like deliberate and slowly, like, and they're gone. They're literally gone. Like, keep up, man. You're like, it's a little dangerous, don't you think?

You know, like, no, no, no, it's not dangerous. We know we're doing, you know? And, no, no, it's not dangerous. We know what we're doing. So they teach you those skills along the way of no longer instructed. We're showing you now, and this is the way we do it. It's got to be fast, it's got to be perfect, it's got to be right on time. You drink it from fire hose for another 18 months. And then they kind of, all right, all right, all right. Let's kick it up a notch.

Now you can probably go to schools. You can do other things like driving or climbing or whatever your specialty might be. You know, it's a little bit more, you're trusted to go do that stuff now versus we may end up kicking you out of here. So we're not gonna waste the money on you, you know. So it's very thought through. And I don't think that they do it on purpose to take the pressure off, but the way they kinda ramp it up and step it up

makes it more easy than just drinking from that fire hose, but it always feels like you're drinking from a fire hose because you never feel good enough. Yeah. Like every day you're like, I mean, I'll never be like that guy. You know, and you don't find out until 20 years later that that guy

thought the same thing about you. And you're like, man mean, I'll never be like that guy. You know, you don't find out until 20 years later that that guy thought the same thing about you. And you're like, man, why didn't you say something on day one? We could have felt better for 20 years, you know? So it's, it's one of those judgmental places, but you judge yourself, you know, you just don't fit in. You don't feel like you're good enough ever. Because it's always a non-stop improvement. Because if you're not improving, then you're dying. And you're stagnant and you're irrelevant. So you always have to keep up and improving. So for 20 years, you felt you were behind the power curve.

Always. Even as a star major, I'm like, how did I get here? These guys are stupid. You know, I snuck in somehow. And now they're going to find out I'm a phony and they're gonna kick me out. You know, it's just every day was a fear. Swiping that badge, I hear stores all the time. Shhh.

Green. Oh my God. Open the door. You wanna leave the squadron? Swiping card. Green. Oh my God. Wanna eat chow?

Swiping it in. Oh my God, it's green, you know, and then, every now and then, some of you have come to work and there's stuff's red and nothing opens up for him. It's like Go see the star major, you know, that's it's one of those stressful daily things I'm swiping your card not knowing if it's gonna turn green or red. That's how they let you know. Yeah That's a good way to let you know in the morning All right, you know, we shut back at work and I had a long conversation the night before about

you or something. You swipe it and it's red. You're like, I have no access to anything at all anymore. You know, walk around and go in the front door and see the star of major. It's happened a couple of times to people throughout the years going to the front gate and it's red and they're like, what the **** the you know, obviously they probably could figure it out. They've done something screwed up recently. Who did you look up to when you got to see? Is there anyone in particular? Matt Ryerson was a real big influence on me. He was a different team and a different troop, but he kind of took me

under his wing like hey you want to go shooting at shooting competitions? I'm like, no, man, I'm already good. He goes, yeah, but shooting competitions adds the stress, the stress of beating somebody else in the time, plus you can win cool shit. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I go to shooting competitions with him and shoot under stress and everything.

And we can't pretty good friends that way. Hang on, even though it was on another team, I think it was a team leader on another team at the time. And he just kind of took men as a wing. My team leader was gone for a while. To be honest, I think he was more motivated, you know, and he kind of grabbed me as a young energetic kid and just started showing me those things that he did improve his shooting and to make his life at the unit better. So, they kind of bonded us early on.

So I looked up to him a lot. Is there any particular reason before that drew you to him before you guys started shooting together? He had a calm demeanor, a real pleasant demeanor, like a father figure. He was just one of those kind personalities that when you meet him, you know, and you kind of attracted to that that energy level and that was kind of how it felt. And then he started bringing up, hey, let's just do some shooting, come to shooting on the weekends, I've bring all my guys, he should come too. And I'm like,

I don't know, yeah, I'm gonna get in trouble over here. He's like, no, I'll screw those guys, come on, we're just shooting, you know, so I'd go to, you know, matches with him,'t know, yeah, I'm gonna get in trouble over here. He's like, no, I'll screw those guys. Come on, we're just shooting, you know, so I'd go to matches with him, you know, shootin' a lot of weekends for years and I gave that up so it's too much work. What kind of experience did C squadron have before you came in? Not a lot. Not a lot.

You know, A and B had done things up up through the years and C Squadron came in. I think they had some call outs, but didn't do much. I can't tell you if they were in Panama as C Squadron. Because there's such a mix of guys in the photos, some are C, some are in. I think that when they built C, they did the same thing. When we built D, both of them from everywhere. But I don't think there was a history of doing much. Well, what were some of the operations that they may have been involved in?

Just Delta in general. Mm. Up to that point. Any regional surveillance stuff, protection details around the world in high-threat areas, foreign ambassadors or generals, things like that, and then the smaller trips, down to different parts of the world, that you take two or three guys and go sort something out and figure it out and send back some information and kind of make a plan off that or execute it yourself. But it was one of those times where everybody was waiting for war, you know?

Kind of waiting to get it. Now did they hunt scuds? Yeah, I think they started scud hunt missile hunting in Iraq as well. And that was before my time, but I think that, yeah, I think that they were part of that as well. Interesting. So you get into C squad and you're getting your 18 months through your end. What's the first mission? In Samoaia. First team trip was a ski and trip. That was fun. And then we started rehearsing.

Well, yeah. And then we did some things early that year and then rolled in to Smaya. What kind of things? You know, that shit I didn't want to talk about. That was kind of thing. Yeah, that year. Yeah, and it was just, it was interesting stuff.

Small team interesting things. Like, I think I talk about in the book where I, you know, down in, down a bogotah and went up to traces skinis, doing regional surveillance stuff. And the only people that go to traces skinis are drug dealers or DA agents. You know, and I didn't know that. We took a flight from bogotah there. Three of us left two back in Bogota to do their thing. And when you land you're like, oh my God, it's a horrible place to be.

It's right on the equator too. So I got fried, right? Because the hotel shuts down air conditioner about two every day because there's too much of a drain, you know? So I'd go out by the pool if you're not doing anything. Of course, I got fried in like 10 minutes. It's horrible feeling. But I learned that lesson. Don't go out by the pool. If you're not doing anything, of course, I got fried in like 10 minutes. It's horrible feeling. But learn that lesson. Don't lay out on the equator. And then we decided to go out that night. Like, let's go out and just drive to the beach,

right? Which is not a beach. It's a river. And there's a military checkpoint on the way out of town. Drugs, man. I mean, consider it. Checkpoint pulls us over. I'm in the passenger seat, you know, guys driving, one guy's in the back, they start yelling at us, what the, you know, whatever in Spanish, drivers talk and tell me, he's reaching in for the get out of jail free card, you know, and dude doesn't like it.

Again, my side doesn't like it, so it's putting his G3, he shoves it in the side of my face and just holds it there, okay, you know, Jim, wait, just stop moving man, you know, and he sticks it in my mouth. Jim pulls out this car and that's when I grab the barrel

and moved it like, dude, that's enough, you know, and it was terrified and he pulls it out and the guy starts screaming and we drove off. I said, let's turn around and go back right now. Let's go back to the hotel. I don't wanna go to the river anymore, man. I was dressed up. The streets just doesn't sound very fun anymore.

I was stressed out so bad. I said a gun in my face in my mouth and we made it back to the hotel and we went to the bar and we were talking to some people. I was like, yeah, we tried to go down to the beach and they were like, beach. It's no beach, it's a river. And only criminals go down there and shoot people every night

and we're like, I'm glad we didn't go to the beach. We didn't even make it out of town. It was just one of those terrifying experiences. But that was early that year. And 93. And then, yeah, then we started rehearsing for Somalia. And I know that different squadron and a different Ranger element was rehearsing up to certain point, then they handed off because their time's up.

And it didn't happen in that time, so we picked it up and started rehearsing. What was going on in Somali at that time that they wanted you guys over there? They were starving millions of people with the food we had given them, and they were using it as a weapon and taking it out. And they had started attacking con boys. I think some Marines got attacked,

and it was like, okay, that's enough. I know package had gotten attacked. And so I think it was when the Marines got attacked and it was like, okay, that's enough. I know package had gotten attacked. And so I think it was when the Marines got attacked that we pulled the trigger to go. It's like a time to go, early or well, today. My God, today is when we went. I'm ever when we pack. I mean, we never knew when we were gonna go. We just kept rehearsing for it.

And then maybe a week out from deploying, okay, we're going to task force ranger. What were you rehearsing for? Was it a particular hit that you guys were going to do? No. Just general. The A H sixes would come in and stray for target and then would come in and assault the target. And that's how we'll do it. We'll have a template. So when you know, something comes up, we all know we'll go this corner, this corner, this corner, you'll know what helicopter you're going to be on. You'll know know where that helicopter's gonna land. That's all we need to know. You'll know what direction to run and then you know what to do after that.

So we've developed a tent place where everything the planning process wouldn't have to happen. That once they got a target hit, we could launch right away. So if they so in Somalia when they ended up getting a intel hit, we would get up, load up, helicopters would fire up and would sit there and wait. And the team leaders would come out and scream some shit and point, and you don't hear him, you're like, God it, you land, you're like, what now?

What do we do now? You know, you figured it out. But that we templated, we practiced the template, we rehearsed that flying, and then actually had a AH crash, well, we were going to strafe, and he just went too low and hooked his skid on a pine tree and crashed.

And I remember we were the closest black hawk and we were getting very open, a salted target. And I remember the crew chiefs like, I look up, he smacks me on the back and I look up, you know, some number one on the door. And I look at him, he's like, all I heard was we're gonna crash. Like what? He said it was, we're gonna crash. Like, what?

He said it again, we're gonna crash. And I lean over, okay, we're gonna crash. And I laid back on my side and try to get dudes out of the door, you know? He's like, go, go, go. And I'm like, oh, we want me a rope before we crash. So I'm the first guy down the rope. And then other guys come down and he's pointing, that's that way. And I'm like, oh, we've had a crash.

There's another crash. That makes a lot more sense. And we took off running in that direction of the heat and that he was pointing. And I came up and that little bird was on fire. Pile should try and drag themselves out. My two IC used to be a critchy front black car. See, the whole front's broken off.

And he immediately ran out and the pilots are dragging themselves the way we pulled him out of the way. We pulled him out of the way. He grabs a fire extinguisher and tries to put out the engines because it's still running. It's just still running. It's catching the pine needles on fire and it's starting to spread. I'm like, I got to drag the pilot further and he throws, ends up throwing a dirt and the intake and it shuts the engine down. Because we're trying to pull the engine cut but it had broken off, the front had broken

off. So we finished the day training and then took those guys back and got them out and then we practiced it down, heal it one time, then goodness, because of that. And just rehearsing different missions, vehicle interdictions and things like that. And then it came up to like a week before they notified us.

I think they knew something's like, hey, if we deploy, it's part of task force rangers or're about to go out and get haircuts. If you look like Rangers. So when it finally happened, you know, everybody finishes up their haircuts, we show up at work, we start to take off and you can tell the difference between the Rangers who have high tights with tan heads and you have guys who just have hair, you go white stripes, pure white stripes, you know. It's kind of like when you're training foreign countries and they come in and you go to all the studs with them and then you got three pasty white dudes

that work in a basement somewhere and you're like, oh, I got it, you're the guys collecting, you know what I mean? You can tell the difference between who they are and how hard they work. So when they saw the white stripes on their head, I go, that's a dead giveaway anyway. Yeah, it's a brand new haircut. So what was the briefing like

when you guys were going over? No news is good news, tell your families that no news is good news. We don't know when we're coming back. We don't know if we're gonna do anything, but we wanna go catch a deed, we wanna stop, you know, and put somebody else in charge or remove who's in charge and see what happens

and try to bring them back to the negotiation table. Can you tell everybody about a deed? Yeah, Muhammad Fahra has son a deed. He was, you know, his son was a Marine. I did. U.S. Marine, he was over there, and then he went back over to take over. Yeah, his, so a deed, his son, a deed was a warlord. Yeah, small. His son was a marine,

or came to the US, became a United States Marine, and then went back to small. He had to take his dad's job. Yeah. Yeah. He had gone into hiding when they tried AC-130 on his, I think, his family compound or something. He went into hiding. So when we went over, there was like one of those, I don't know, you know, how do we find the dudes and people out, use other agencies, try to find them. It's not like you fit in much over there, you know. It's kind of a particular look of people. And it's hard to fit in. So working that network, whoever was doing that at the time, I was just a young kid. All I to just run our break stuff and shoot things

You know, it's I didn't pay attention to much at that time in my life The briefing was shit, you know my homadid deed was just a warlord that had power at the time, right? I mean you got a hold power over there So he had his little minions around him and then around them and they kept their minions and you know and checked But they're all hungry for power over there, because to them that means I'm on top, I get everything I want. And indeed, so indeed was the warlord in charge,

he was holding all of the food coming from the US to feed, there was obviously a starvation problem over there. And he was... The good clans, so there are different clans over there. So it's kind of a clan warfare. Indeed was one clan, the about Gaderra clan was another maybe or he was in the how about here. I barely remember the clan names, but I remember there was a one line a

road that when you cross that road it was all bad. When you cross road coming this way, I had to be careful because it's all the good people lived over here, you know, and it wasn't always easy to determine when you cross that road. So people are always screaming, you know, whatever, February 24th, or whatever, I don't remember the name of the road, but it was that distinct, like a moat in the middle. And this side was taking care of their own people and feeding them. And this side was starving to death. And he was trying to starve out the other clans so he could own it all. And we didn't like that, you know? For whatever reason we didn't like that, when he started attacking, when he attacked a Marine Convoy, it kind of set it off. Well, before we get to that, I mean,

before it all really kicked off, what were you guys doing over there? Were you getting out in town, were you getting boots on the ground, the ground? Yeah, we did signature flights like twice a day just to desensitize when we do a hit, you know? Because every time we took off, at night headlights would be flashing on the hills like to let people know, I mean, they were watching us. So when we took off, it couldn't be just for hits. It's better to desensitize them.

So at least twice a day of different times we'd pick up and just fly the city, drop in low, come back up, pop around like we're doing hits. So when it was a real hit, you know, they'd be like, well, maybe they're just doing the city, drop in low, come back up, pop around like we're doing hits. So when it was a real hit, they'd be like, well maybe they're just doing the same thing. We did a lot of that. We did four or five hits up to the main three October one, which were combat to people on TV, to me, everybody else.

The good guys come in. We make some noise, the bad guys lose, we come back high five, tell stories. It's all great. I mean, that was good for four missions, which were boring, boring missions of going after this, going, the first one I think was a UN compound that was, they were dirty. Like it was, was this a confidence target that we hit? Because it was former UN guys and it was almost a funny target, like weird. And then it was just dirty UN people, they were taking equipment. So somebody turned them in, and then the next one was like,

I don't know, some cop or something, then it moved up, they were moving up the ladder, trying to find who knew who. And so I think the fifth hit, when we got his money guy, Aata, Muhammad Aata. That was our VI. It turned into a VI right in town. The sniper shot the driver. The shot the engine out, also shot the driver in the legs. Didn't really know at the time.

They bailed, ran into a house. We roped down. They roped down and chased a man. Then they called us in because we were still on a track. We roped in. I know our team roped in, run the mill, the intersection, immediately came under fire from down the street. So me and another guy took off running like close ambush,

right, saw through. It was about a hundred yards, you know. We ended up a halfway down that alleyway before we realized this is a bad idea and jumped into a doorway. And I turned around the entire team's back behind us behind a Polarox. Like when we fucked up.

Now we're up here. So that was a firefight. People kept feeding. You know, once we took care of that guy with that machine gun, somebody else ran across the road unarmed. It was like, ah, huh. Then they started shooting us with a machine gun. We took care of that again.

Somebody else ran across the road. It was like, the run armed, you know. Finally figured out they're feeding the machine gun and they know our rules of engagement, you know. So we didn't let that happen again. Somebody else ran across the road. It was like, the run armed, you know. Finally, I figured out they're feeding the machine gun and they know our rules of engagement, you know. So we didn't let that happen again. What were the rules of engagement? You can't shoot them by without a weapon, you know, in a threat. So, you know, you can't shoot anything that's not a threat. So if nobody has a weapon in their hand, they're not a threat. Okay. But to me, they were feeding the weapon, right? It's like a crew served weapon. So I just had to stop that.

It kept happening, and sooner or later, it was gonna be us, so I ended up not letting people cross the street anymore. I mean, it was bold and ballsy people. I mean, there was a lady and all decked out in the black, you know, grass and covered up in the face and gloves and she'd be walking out of the street, and I'm over a firefighter, she'd go into the market.

Look, what's this lady doing, man? I guess they live in this shit, you know? And then she points us out. And they start shooting at us again, I'm like, okay, we're gonna have to draw. You know, I can't let this go on, saying I'd pull out bean backgrounds and chasing her off, you know, and they get called across the street to pull guard

and I got to pull guard on Osminato. And then we took fire on that house and then the black hot came in and dropped one wheel on the roof of the helicopter, you know, the parapet people climbing up the tire and getting out. And that was my first engagement. I was on the second floor. We were the last team out,

so we were pulling guard for the team going before it's climbing in the helicopter. I saw a guy across the street pop out with an AK and aim it up and I'm like, whoa, okay, and I took a breath and it jammed on him. So he was like messing with it. And I remember just thinking, okay, you know, red dot and boom, he shot him right in the head or whatever.

He disappeared in the room and his weapon flew out the window. And I was like, I started screaming for my team later. I was like, I beat you, see that beat, come here. I just shot this dude and he's like, good job. Keep doing your job and took off. You know, I was just too peat-was. And then, moving to the roof to climb onto the helicopter and it was one of those under fire things.

I'm the last guy off the roof, climbing up the wheel, spinning, it shouldn't be spinning, it should be locked. You know, I'm trying to get up, people are pulling me up by my kit and pulling me in and made it out of that. I'm like, oh my God, that was crazy. Was that your first kill? the guy on the roof? Yeah. So that was exciting for you.

It was, like I got to do my job, right? It wasn't a target, I got to do my job, I stopped him from shooting somebody. It was like a perfect thing, you know. Any hesitation at all? No, no, I took a breath, Like, I don't wanna miss his hesitation. Not, oh, it's a human, you know, and he's just doing what I'm doing, right?

He's fighting for what he thinks is right. It was just training, right? Training. Red dot, pull the trigger. I didn't even think about it. I was excited when I hit it. Like, I actually did it. And then I got excited.

Like, hey, come look at what I did, you know, and it was cross the street. He didn't see anything. He's like, good job. Keep doing your job. Okay, I guess that was boring, you know, I don't know. And I, you know, I'm still high five in that shit, you know, I'm still high five in that stuff.

There was more dead people on that, when you're on the bad guys. I don't think we even had any wounded on that one still. Maybe a ranger had gotten hit in a plate, somewhere else, you know, pulling out of security. But then I thought, oh, that's combat, you know, that was combat, that was crazy. I didn't know what was happening,

I didn't know where it's getting shot from. It was all just, you could die in a second, you know, you don't have no idea. And so that was my vision of combat, you know, and then our next and last hit was three October. Well, I'd like you to describe, I mean, a lot of us have not been over there. I've not been over there.

What is it, I mean, how many people were starving? Were they just starving in the streets? I mean, I've heard been over there. What is it? I mean, what was it? How many people were starving? Were they just starving in the streets? I mean, I've heard stories about North Korea. 300,000 maybe? 300,000. We're starving to death. Were there... And he kept attacking the convoys. And he kept attacking the convoys. Dirt, sandy dirt roads.

I mean, they had the Olympic hotel. They had the Olympics there before. So, it was in decline. Cactuses growing around all of the dirty roads. I mean, they had the Olympic hotel, they had the Olympics there before. So it was in decline, cactuses growing around all of the houses just randomly growing. You know, you'd bump into those. It was a nightmare. Just shit in the streets. You know, I was just horrible. Every helicopter landing was a brownout. Every house, you know, barely had water in it or no power. It was just, I don't know who would want to be in charge of that place, you know. Airport wasn't running, obviously, other than what we fixed up. I don't remember seeing much actually working over there.

There's certainly no government. I don't, I mean, locals probably knew where to go and stay. I mean, the Bacara market was a big black market of weapons and things. So, and that's actually where we did our last hit. But I was a shitty existence, you know, it was one of those, I'd never seen anything like that before. People that poor still living in center block or mud and rock homes, which can withstand RPGs, by the way. But they are very simple, very poor living, but some are pretty happy. Some in line up on the fence to try to sell their stuff

through the fence to the Americans and whatnot. Guys go out there and buy some trinkets and whatnot. They weren't horrible, all horrible people, but I didn't learn that back then. To me, they were all horrible. Even the Portapoday guy who sucked out our Portapoday's, I'm like, watch it, dude, you know, it's collecting on us. I just didn't trust anybody, you know, because they were the enemy, you know, when you're going to smile, they're the enemy.

Okay, all smile ends are the enemy then, right? I didn't put that, you know, away till later. Till way later, but it was a filthy, nasty, unkept place to be. Well, before we head into three October, let's take another quick break. Yeah. Next on the Sean Ryan show. This is going to be your last interview

on Mogadisham, what happened in Somalia. about the trash bags. Talking to them on the spouses, those body parts were in the trash bag. And she can't use trash bags. This past weekend, we all reacted with anger and horror. As an arm Sonale gang, desecrated the bodies of our American soldiers and displayed a captured American pilot. I remember getting nervous, but still, we're going to be home for dinner, right?

You know, it's joking around. And then another RPG, and I remember looking up and seeing it hit the helicopter. It's the tail of the helicopter. You saw it hit. Yeah, and it just started auto-rotating. I'm like, oh man, no, no, you know. These tragic events raised hard questions about our effort in Somalia. Former Navy SEAL Mike Ritland keeps it real on the Mike Drop podcast.

He's the co-CEO of the All Secure Foundation, which is this special operations in active duty combat that's time-satterly. It'll be helped you shoot your gun. They trained you, had a shoot your weapon, so we're gonna train you on a thing you've never been trained for. I don't come home for more. Everything else that turns people away from it. We try to brand it, reduce or dismiss the kind of stigma that's associated with you have to Mike drop raw unfiltered intellectually sound wherever you listen