Shawn Ryan Show - #95 Joe McMoneagle - CIA's Project Stargate

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Joe McMoneagle is a former U.S. Army Chief Warrant Officer and was among the first Remote Viewers to be recruited into the previously classified Stargate Project. Project Stargate was the United States' first organized research into psychic phenomena via the Defense Intelligence Agency and contractor SRI International. In this episode, McMoneagle takes us back to the early days of the Vietnam War and how he was recruited into intelligence operations. The height of the Cold War fueled appetites for advantages over the United States' enemies and gave way to the CIA's push into "psychic and extra sensory perception" research and military applications. Post his military retirement, McMoneagle authored several books to critical acclaim like "The Stargate Chronicles: Memoirs of a Psychic Spy" and continued his work via his private venture–Intuitive Intelligence Applications, Inc. He now teaches Remote Viewing at The Monroe Institute, a world leader in human consciousness exploration. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://helixsleep.com/srs- USE CODE "HELIXPARTNER20" https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner https://hvmn.com/shawn https://betterhelp.com/shawn https://moink.box.com/shawn https://mindbloom.com/srs - USE CODE "SRS" Joe McMoneagle Links: Monroe Institute - https://www.monroeinstitute.org/pages/trainer-joe-mcmoneagle Books - https://b.link/b87bbrq3 Download Supporting Documentation from the Episode Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Do I have to say all that? Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. Every once in a while, I will take a speculative interview where nobody really knows the truth on the subject matter. And when I do that, I always talk about that in the introduction. This interview, however, may be a little bit hard for some of you to believe, but I assure you there is no speculation. In fact, I've provided a lot of the documentation you'll see presented in the actual episode and for those of you that still don't believe, do your own research, look this stuff up yourself, and you'll find that it's very real. Remote viewing has been around for a very long time. The US was a

little bit late to the game on it as the Russians have been utilizing this stuff for several years before we did. I brought on the first remote viewer for the United States. This man is a legend. He called the hunt for the Red October submarine. Many of you have seen that movie. He called where the first International Space Station was going to crash into the earth. He called a lot of things. We're going to cover all of them on this show. Ironically, I've heard that this man actually remote viewed his own death, which supposedly happens at age 78. Coincidentally, this episode was recorded on his 78th birthday.

And I address that and ask him this question in the episode. You'll see it's at the very end. Ladies and gentlemen, if you get anything out of these episodes, please like, comment, and subscribe to the YouTube channel. Head over to Spotify or Apple Podcast. Leave us a review that really, really helps the show. Just leave one word in the review. That helps us. Ladies and gents, without further ado, please welcome remote viewer number 001 for the United States, Mr. Joe McBonigal. One last thing before we kick this off, there's a lot of talk in this episode

about the Monroe Institute, a institute that helps develop and hone in these type of abilities, which offers courses to regular everyday people like myself. I plan on going, check out their website. I wouldn't be surprised if I see you there. Love you all, enjoy the show.

["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Joe McMonagall, welcome to the show. Thank you, glad to be here actually. I am very glad that you're here as well. I've been looking into you for right around a year now. Sean Webb has introduced us, mutual friend of us and credit to Sean. I've been listening to you for about a year on and off.

And then in the weeks leading up to the interview, I have your voice has been in my head. I don't know if you're pulling tricks on me or not, but it's been in my head a lot. I can't do that, it doesn't work that way. And well, Sean has been a very valuable resource. Oh, he's a cool guy. I like him a lot. I really I think he's a cool guy. I like him a lot.

I really do. He's a neat guy. All right, Joe. So I want to give you an introduction and I believe this may be the longest introduction I've ever done. So bear with me here. Okay. Joe McMonigal, you spent over 12 years as an army intelligence officer in

Vietnam and Southeast Asia. You've survived three assassination attempts Army Intel performed a fake funeral on you You survived over a decade in a job that has a 20 month life expectancy After your field service you were tapped for a highly classified black project connected with the development of the first remote viewing program for the United States intelligence service called Grille Flame, later renamed Stargate. You have provided time sensitive and actionable intelligence for the CIA, the DIA, the NSA,

the FBI, DEA, NRO, National Reconnaissance Office, NASA, US Special Operations Unit, Joint Chief of Staff, the National Security Council, and the White House, among other agencies that we can't even bring up. Your esteemed service and remote viewing for government earned you a Legion of Marin Award, one of the most prestigious awards in the US Army Intelligence Officer can be given. After your military retirement, you spent decades as a remote viewing consultant for

U.S. intelligence, saving dozens of lives, including those of some missing children. You have remote viewed everything from classified submarines to hostage situations and even Mars. You've performed numerous successful remote viewings on live television in Japan and the US, and you currently guest-teach remote viewing at the Monroe Institute. Many call you a psychic spy, but you are remote viewer number 001 for the United States. Joe, I'm out of breath now. Welcome to the Sean Ryan show. It is an honor to have you here.

So I can't wait to get your life story. I just have to, just have to say one thing. That's the three assassination attempts. You could interpret one of them as an attempt and that was when I was in Austria eating dinner with my ex-wife and close friend and got something in my drink that wiped me out. I had no heartbeat until he got me to a clinic.

And surprised everybody by coming back to life. Wow. And as a result, got smuddled out to arrest them in Munich where they wanted to know how badly my brain was damaged because I had no heartbeat for so long. So they assumed I had brain damage. That and the fact that I was talking about God's white light and you can't cease to exist might have something to do with it. Interesting. So they let everybody think I was dead and I think it was just a few years ago, maybe five or six years ago, I met somebody in Lynchburg,

Virginia who came up with, he had a beard, he came up and said, do you recognize me? And I said, no. He said, I work for you at the detachment, the Bordersight Detachment. And we all thought you were dead all these years. Wow. And here you are giving a lecture in Lynchburg and so that kind of is you could interpret that as an assassination attempt. There's a couple other events that could be seen that way but only from a certain perspective. I don't think they were assassination. Really? I think they were just plain accidents where I happen to be

in the wrong place at the wrong time. Okay. That kind of thing. Well we will get to that in your life story if you don't mind prompting me when they're appropriate. But Joe, I wanna go through your whole life. I would like to document, this is your biography. I want to document your entire life, starting at childhood all the way up to now. But before we get into that, everybody on the show gets a gift. So little something for you and,

Studer on the way home. Thank you. From us. Oh, very cool. Thank you. Those are not poisoned, I promise. No! They're just gummy bears.

Gummy bears. That's right. But, uh, you're welcome. And something that I did forget to mention in the introduction as you've been married to your beautiful bride for 39 years. And that's correct. That is amazing. Yeah. And it's nice to see people with healthy relationships last because you

don't see that very often anymore. And so congratulations. I started out rough, but I smoothed out at the end. Well, you did damn good. So, but, um, but yeah, let's, um, you know, like I said, I would like to, you know, you had a very extensive career. I know you spent a lot of time in Vietnam, Southeast Asia and army intelligence, but I would actually like to start before then in your childhood. So where did you grow up?

I grew up in Miami, Florida in a, well, what we'd be termed not loosely, but in reality as a slum. The house we lived in had bars on all the windows and doors and we had these broomsticks in the corner for the rats that would come out of the sewers and stuff. They were like house cats, that kind of thing. And it was a bad area of town. It was 79th Street about northwest 2nd Avenue, which was right next to, I think it was Edison High School. It was not mistaken now, but mostly it was refugees from Cuba. A lot of poor people, white people, black people, Puerto Rican.

A melting pot. A melting pot of very poor people. And so there was a lot of rough gangs there and whatnot, which I adamantly fought not being a member of. And I remember, I would tell them, it's okay to mess with me, but don't mess with my sisters or my mother and I was ready to back that up and they learned to leave them alone and pick on me so I was one of the fastest skids on the block. What time frame is this? That's, let's see, 1950s. 1950s?

Yeah. I was born in 1946, so it would be about 1958 on, and I went to Catholic school, elementary school, which is about a mile and a half away It's not a cathedral in Miami. Okay But it's now in a very poor neighborhood. It wasn't then but We had to walk out of the poor area to get to the church There's a little wooden church called the St. Mary's on the little hilltop and

Now it's you know all encroached by big buildings and whatnot. And it's a cathedral, all polished and pretty and everything. Yeah. Who were your parents? My parents, well, my mother was, my father met my mother when she was wrapping Christmas presents for a department store in Miami. And my father quit school when he was 14.

He had polio, so he wore braces on his legs. And his father left his mother and him and his other brother when he was 14. So he quit school to help bring money in, to help his mother. And so he did everything from caddying for golf players, which were mostly hoods from New York that would come down to Miami over the winter and play golf and gamble and that sort of thing. Back then you could only get to Miami by train.

There was no road that got to Miami. Interesting. Oh, my grandmother came to Miami in an ox cart actually along the shoreline. Are you kidding me? No, they used oxen because they could pull these wagons through the water and the sand and what not. And she had her house built right on the Miami River and it was a perfectly square house but she lived upstairs and downstairs you could pull these ropes and the plywood siding

would come up and make like an extension of a roof around the outside. And under there was a big horseshoe shaped bar. And so she served local moonshine and they had music and they would dance under these live oaks and they had all these old statues and whatnot. And people would show up and dug out canoes because back then they hunted the bird feathers, hunted the birds for the feathers for hats over in Europe, that sort of thing. And so she serviced those people who were the people out of the swamp and whatnot. Interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting story.

The background of my dad. Yeah. But he never had really a formal education, but he was a hell of a golfer. He took his braces off, by the way, and threw them in the trash because nobody would give him a job when he warmed. So he walked. Right leg was worse than his left leg, so it was about three inches shorter. When the war started, he tried to join the army. He spent three weeks in the army and the DI walking along behind the soldier

standing at, you know, attention, saw his one leg up in the air and he asked him, do you always stay on your toes like that? And he said, only the right leg, it's a little shorter. So they gave him a dis, they gave him an honorable discharge and threw him out. And all his buddies were killed in the war. So it really soured him on all that stuff. And he was upset by that, I think his whole life. But he worked in a warehouse his whole life. And I don't know if people are familiar with, people with polio, but walking on the toes

are the ball of your feet on one side, on a concrete four year old life. You develop a callus that goes right to the bone. It's the most one of the most painful things you can endure. And he never said a word ever about it, but he drank a lot when he would come home. He'd go through a six pack or a 10 pack of beer every night. And people are really condemning for it. Like all the relatives, you know, your dad's nothing but an

alcoholic, blah, blah, blah. But he really loved his family and he worked his whole life very hard to take care of us. Were you close with your parents? I was close with my dad but not my mom. My mom was very controlling and she usually got controlling when I wanted to do something like leave after dark to go somewhere

and so she'd scream at me and yell at me and I would just ignore her and sometimes she'd stop me and slap me across the face and say, pay attention to me. And I just laugh or smile at her and she keeps slapping me and finally give up and I'd walk out the door and do what I wanted. But I learned in the, in the army, actually, I was thinking about, I had an epiphany like my seventh year in the army. And I realized what she was actually doing was out of fear for her children.

She was trying to protect us in the areas we were growing up in. That was her way of doing it. And so I came home and I confronted her with that. And she said, yes, that's all she ever meant to do. And so we had this coming together. And so we became very good friends and very close until her death, which was at a very young age.

So she had a heart attack. Had to take two buses to get to the hospital. And they gave her a bottle of pills and sent her home and she didn't last very long. Same thing happened when my twin sister. Really? So yeah. So you're a twin. A real gripe with hospitals that just get people pills and send them home.

No, still's not right. Still doing it today, 70-something years later. Yeah. But when did your sister pass? She passed, I think it was around her just before her 50th birthday. And she lived in Ocala, Florida at the time. She was also schizophrenic. Oh, man.

But she controlled, at the end, she was very well controlled with meds, was, you know, living her life. And it was a good one at the end. But, um, and we were always close. She was, she said I was the only one she ever trusted because I never lied to her and always tell her the truth. She'd call me sometimes. I get a call at three in the morning in Germany. Standing on the side of the road, it's pouring down rain. I don't know what to do. There's nothing here. And I'd say, how did you get there?

Well, I was on a bus and I said, why'd you get off the bus? This little Abner was looking at me. Yeah, little Abner is a cartoon in the newspaper. And she said, no, he's not. He was driving the bus. So I had to get off and I go, oh geez. What do I do? So I'd say stand on the edge of the road when somebody comes by, wave like crazy. And then I didn't hear from her for six months. The state trooper picked her up, took her

to the hospital where they'd stabilize her. And once was stable she'd call me on the phone and apologize and everything. But that's kind of life she led. And so I worried about her all the time. When did that start? It started at age 15. She got pregnant from a boyfriend or something and my parents sent her up to Baltimore to live with another aunt who kept her there until she birthed the

baby and then he took the child away from her and gave it away or gave it away to adoption or something and that was it. That drove her over the edge, I think. And she hated my mother until she died. You couldn't talk her into any other belief. Man. And I had three other sisters and my second oldest sister, who was seven years my junior. When she was born, I climbed a tree in the backyard and said, I'm not coming down out of the tree until you take her back. I was seven years old. And my mother said, that's not going to happen. And so I, well, I'm not coming down out of the

tree. She said, fine, stay in the tree. And she went inside, closed the door. And that night, the mosquitoes drove me out of the tree. So I snuck in the house and noticed the little bassinet sitting on the kitchen table. And I snuck up on it and looked over the edge. And it was my new sister and while I was staring at her she opened one eye and started screaming and I went, ah, you know, but it's like a bird, you know, she kind of anchored on me and everywhere I went she went. Everything I did she wanted to see what I was doing.

And in her early years at school I had to walk her to school which is okay as long as I didn't like have ownership. But as soon as we left the house she'd say you gotta hold my hand and I'd say, you got to hold my hand. And I'd say, I'm not going to hold your hand. She said, you got to hold my hand. I can't see. The sun's too bright. So I have to hold her hand all the way to school.

And when people meet her now, they think she's my twin because we think alike, talk like. And everything about her is the same as me almost in. But my other two sisters, my next one in line was Beth, Elizabeth and Beth's gentle like a deer. I remember her whole time as a child, she would walk around in the rooms on her tiptoes. I think she was my dad's favorite and she was trying to emulate him

because he's walking on tiptoes on his right foot. Oh yeah. So she always walked on tiptoes. Interesting. And she was very quiet. She was an observer. She'd come into her room and just observe. And then my baby sister, Kathy, was the one that was a real terrorist. She got into it all the time at school. She

got in a fight over a basketball or something with some boy and I think she was eight, eight or nine at the time and he pushed her down on the basketball court and she broke her, broke her arm. So she was in a cast and she came to me and she said, how do I deal with this? And I said, just tell me you want to tell him a secret but he's got to come close because you're going to whisper. And when he comes up close, he just with the cast. And then afternoon, I got to talk to a cop, brought her to the house and said, did you

tell your sister to do this? And I said, oh yeah, I did. Almost went to jail for it. But my other sisters told me that she was, she was wild child her whole life. She died from a brain tumor at 35 or 36. Oh man. Yeah. So I lost my twin sister and my baby sister.

I'm sorry. The two in between are now retired master, senior master sardines from the Air Force. Are you kidding me? Are they, were they in the intelligence services as well? No. Okay. They supported an active fighter squadron up in Portland Oregon, their whole time they were in. Yeah, that's where they both lived.

One lived across the river in Washington state and my other sister lived in Portland. So they worked at that active fighter squadron their whole time in the service. Oh good. And one was a secretary to the commander I think, kind of a secretary or you know a person who supported him. And my other sister was, she's very proud of her MOS because it's one of the few combat MOS's the Air Force has. It's where they parachute in some a team and they set up all the electronic requirements for a landing strip. So when they acquire a landing strip in a combat zone and it's got no support, they go in and support the fighters they bring in and the bombers and things like that until they can bring in a regular crew.

And they tried to push her out of that M.O.S. a couple of times when she got more rank and she fought them to the end. Very cool. Joe, I've read, I don't remember if I've read or heard or watched or listened, but I remember hearing somewhere that something in your childhood kind of shaped or maybe developed you for the career that you were going to dive into. Can you talk about that at all? Yeah, I had to get out of Miami.

I'm really a bug about racial things. I grew up with, you know, people with no money, people who grew up hard just like I did. Many of them were white, many of them were black, many of them were Hispanic, some of them were foreign, in the way they're treated is not right. And my mother and I were walking through a place called, after Bear with Me, I'm trying to remember some things here, I think it was called Grenel's Park. I think that was what it was called Grenel's Park, which is downtown Miami, right across from all the big buildings and stuff.

And it was a park where you could just walk through and whatnot. I remember meeting Roy Rogers there and, uh, we'll see the other, the guy with the white stallion. Oh, uh, what was the other? The guy with the white stallion, oh, uh, had the Silver Bullets, Long Ranger. He actually gave me one of the Silver Bullets. Oh man. It turned out to be a blank, but it was, it was Silver, played it. Anyway, I'm walking

through there with my mother and it was hot and I was thirsty and I saw a water fountain and I went up and started drinking out of it. My mother grabbed me and pulled me away from it. She said, don't use that fountain, it's colored only. And I said, why? And she said, I can't explain it but you shouldn't drink out of those water fountains.

Next time I went and saw my doctor, my mother took me to my doctor. I think it was maybe 12 or 13 at the time. He read me the riot act about using those water fountains and said all these diseases. He just read off this huge list of diseases I could get drinking out of a colored water fountain. And I told him, I said, that doesn't make any sense to me at all. That's nuts. And he got angry.

And my mother got angry. And I said, I got to get out of this place. This is it right. And I don't think that changed up until the day I left when I was 18. Since I turned 18, I went downtown. Vietnam was starting to build up and nobody was enlisting voluntarily.

Everybody was trying to avoid the draft or if they got the draft they wanted a really high number that kind of stuff. But when I graduated from high school I and my group of buddies maybe four of us went downtown and went to the place where they had the all the recruiting sites. We went around to each one, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and I think we even visited the Coast Guard. And I went back to the Army. When I first walked into the Army recruiting office,

they said they looked at me, they looked at my high school record and because we had these folders, you know, I had all our information at it. And I said, get out of here. We don't want to talk to you. You're too smart for the Army. I said, what are you talking about? He says, we're bullet launchers and we're bullet catchers.

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before making an investment decision. So I went around the other places and it became apparent to me they were lying. Every single one of those recruiters were lying. The Air Force, you have a private room, you know, you get to travel all over the world. You know, typical BS they do to rope you in. And so my buddies got hooked by the Navy mostly. They all joined the Navy, but I didn't know that because I went back to the Army place and I walked in and he says, why are you back here?

I said, you're the only guy that's not lying to me. So I joined the army. I came out, met my buddies, they had joined the Navy. What did you join the army to do? I actually joined the army because I felt like if I was going to serve the country, that was the place to be. I just felt like they were guys who were taking up the mission versus trying to drag in their feet going in. These guys were like the guys that they would go with. I just felt like they were serious about it and that's the message this guy was delivering.

they were serious about it. And that's the message this guy was delivering. And so we talked and he asked me why and I wanted to join the army. I said, I want to fly fixed wing. He said, do you know the difference? And I said, yeah, I know I don't want to fly helicopter. He said, why not? I said, I heard it's a bag of rocks when it can't fall anymore. And he said, you're right, it's a bag of rocks. So he says, we don't have a lot of fixed wing pilots, but you're smart enough for it. So he said, I would advise you to get tested before you join. So I went back and actually I committed to it. I went back and I got tested and they opened arms, you know, come on in. So I did all the tests and scored fairly high.

Because by then I was in a private boy school, paid for by a Monsignor at the Cathedral. So my whole high school education was very good with Jesuits and whatnot. So the Army took me in, promised me fixed wing, and then I got to my basic training. I took the basic training, and when they started to ship me off to the fixed wing school they said there's some basic requirements you have to meet and I couldn't meet the depth perception test. I was three inches off at 25 feet and they said you don't you're you have a stigma, stigmatization or something in your vision which doesn't permit you to get a good depth perception. So you can't fly fixed wing. You can't fly anything. So find something else. So I went through a brochure of MLS's and came up with the

idea that I wanted to do this thing called, it was called a side winder back then. It was a track mounted 106 Rekolos rifle. It had six Rekolos rifle barrels on it and it was track mounted and it was very quick Like 50 miles an hour and I thought yeah, that's it Strike and run I was thinking boy if you're fast, they can't get you So I went to AIT for that and finished my AIT And then when I they gave assignments to everybody in the class, everybody was off to Vietnam, Philippines, all these different places.

And you Joe, go sit in the barracks because we don't know what we're going to do with you yet. So I'm sitting in the barracks when somebody came in from the Orly room and said, they've just I've obsolete your weapons group. The army's doing away with it. So you have to find another MOS. So I don't know what the heck I want to do. So I went out on the base and I'm, this is at Columbia, South Carolina. So I'm walking around on the base during training hours.

Can't find any of them last that I want to do. So I'm at the PX beer hall at two in the afternoon. So it's empty and I'm sitting in there drinking a beer and a civilian guy came in and sat way across the place from me. I said, what are you sitting way over there? Why don't you come sit over here and we can talk. So he came over and he asked me what I was doing and I told him and he said, um, I might be able to help you. He said, come on and see me tomorrow. And he gave me his card.

And all his card had on it was phone number. So I called him the next day and he gave me directions and he was in a trailer. So I visited him at his trailer in Columbia, South Carolina on the base. And when I went in, he introduced himself, gave me his name and everything. And he said, I think I can help you pick an MLS. And I said, how do we do that?

Do I look through brochures? He said, no, and he handed me a dart. I said, what's this for? And he pulled this curtain back and it was a big dark with standard dartboard on the wall, but it had little numbers written in all the little places. And he said, you throw the dart, you hit a number, we look it up and it tells you you're MLS. So I threw the dart and it hit on one of the black lines that separated things.

And I said, what does that mean? Do I get to throw the dart again? And he said, no, that's, believe it or not, is an MOS. And I said, what is it? And he said, I can't tell you. I said, what do you mean you can't tell me? He said, well, this is a recruitment for intelligence. And I said, what's that?

I had no idea. And so he said, I can't explain it to you because you don't have a clearance. And I said, well, how am I supposed to do an MLS that I don't have a clearance for? Said, well, we do background and everything once you volunteered. And I said, okay, I'll volunteer. And he

said, you don't have enough commitment time. I only committed for four years. I said, you got to have six years commitment because the school was over a year, year and a half. So I said, okay, what do I do? He said, well, we have some papers for that. And he had me sign my discharge from the four year commitment and sign a recruitment for a six year commitment. And then he told me that my MOS, he gave me the numbers. It was O5 D10 and I said what does that mean he said I can't tell you you have to go to school for and we're gonna send you up to Fort

Devon's Massachusetts so I went to Fort Devon's and I the first school I was in was 120 people and we all had headsets on and we were all learning Morse code. So I learned most Morse code and you had to pass. I think it was 18 words per minute, sending and receiving to graduate. I couldn't get past 10 and I mean that went on and on. I was getting like within 10 days of graduation. I couldn't pass 10. So I snuck out through a hole in the fence and went to this hotel and got absolutely wasted on beer because I was you know almost only one so anyway I came back in just in time for school the next day and people couldn't stay next

to me, I smelled so bad. And he came up to me and he said, you're not typing anything. And I said, oh, I'm not into it today. And he's doing one of these. And he says, where have you been all night? I said, I might've had a few beers. He said, well, full with this a little while. If you don't pass it today, you're out.

And so I passed 12, 15, 18, and 20, almost 22, in four hours. With a hangover. With a hangover. I mean, I was still drunk. So I graduated third in the class. Top three guys didn't go anywhere. We went to the next school. Everybody else block allocated Southeast Asia. So the next class, we had 21 or 22 people in it and it was for everything, but the more co Every kind of radio operation in the world

Russian radios Chinese radios check radios German radios American radios Small radios big radios first transmission type radios all that kind of stuff I I graduated first in that class. I and the number two guy went to a third class. The rest block allocated Southeast Asia. The third class I went to was me and him, two guys that were not wearing uniforms and another guy who was wearing a uniform I'd never seen before. And we're like seven of us in this class. I graduated first in that class.

And that basically was six months in the snow. I never saw a warm building, a warm room, a warm tent. I mean, living in the snow, literally. And then I got sent into Boston for a two week test. My job was to go into Boston, seek out someone who I thought might be an instigator, anti-war demonstrator or whoever, and file reports on them. So I saw this woman who was looked to be part Chinese, and she was definitely a rabble rozzer. So I started writing her up and sending reports in on a every other day basis.

And after about two and a half weeks, I got a telephone call. He said, come back into the base. We want to go over some things with you. And it was a Saturday. I thought that was kind of unusual. So I went in on Saturday. When I walked in the office, she was sitting on the, at this couch. The woman you were surveilling.

Yeah. And she'd been surveilling me. So we had picked up on each other and we were writing reports on one another. And so we both passed. Wow. Wow. Wow. So then everybody got assignments, but me.

So I'm sitting around for a week waiting for an assignment. And they came in one day and they said, go into a Fitchburg, Massachusetts. Here's 300 bucks, go into Fitchburg and by civilian clothes. So I went to this men's store in Fishburg and bought a suit and you know typical load of clothes. And I came back and they took all my uniforms away and everything and I waited another week and then they came and got me and took me to an air base Put me on a C 130 and I had to sign for an entire pallet load of classified material

Because they had given me my clearances by that So we made six or seven stops and I was signing off the stuff that people were taking Off this pallet. And when it got down to just a few objects, we landed and they said, get off with this stuff. And I got off in the plane left and I was sitting on this little runway. And on the right side was the Atlantic Ocean. And on the left side was this light blue like men of training color.

And I could see both at the same time because the place I was sitting was maybe 300 meters across and I was sitting on a log and I said, where am I? No idea. Nobody would tell me. And this baby blue Jeep pulled up and a guy got out of the Jeep with black shorts, white t-shirt, flip flops. And he came over and he said, my name's Sal Carrotto. I'm a warrant officer and I'm your boss. Get in.

I said, where the hell are we? Says, you're on a Lutheran, the Bahamas. So my first tour was 18 months on a Lutheran, the Bahamas. This is an out island. It's a thin 116 mile island. It's only half a mile wide at any given point. And our cover was Airsea Rescue. Half the unit couldn't swim. Now I was a Red Cross lifeguard, so I worked at Eden Rock on Miami Beach for a few months. rock on Miami Beach for a few months. So I taught him how to swim. I taught the guys with kids and a wife how to swim. I taught everybody that didn't know how to swim, how to swim. And I became the major swimmer and diver because that was our cover, but sometimes a boat would run aground or something. We had to like go out and save people that come stuff.

Actually, actually play out your cover. So I can't tell you what we did there. It's still classified, but, but I was there just a year. It was considered a hardship tour. Most of the guys brought their wife and kids over. I was the only one who extended six months. So I'm from Miami. I was a round trip $27 ticket on a jet, whisper jet to Miami. on a jet, a whisper jet to Miami, 18 minute flight. So I was having a good time. Good.

And met my first wife that way in Miami. That was a mistake because my next tour was Germany. Your next tour was Germany. I'm sorry, my next tour was Vietnam. Okay. And that was Germany. Your next two was Germany was Vietnam. Okay. And that was rough. What was the job satisfaction like in the Bahamas? In the Bahamas? Were you excited? Was it a was it an exciting project? Yeah, the mission was exciting. But the mission was like every third week or maybe not or sometimes that kind of thing. Okay.

I met a guy, the most exciting part of it was I met a hit guy out of, he was a Haitian refugee. His name was Maurice. He was a French Haitian and he was a good friend of what they called the Foudoumama of the island. She was an old lady with one leg who they all lived in the Keys which was a slum area. You walked on boards from a little islet to the next and they lived in basically shacks built from driftwood that kind of thing. They were avoided by everybody. I grew up that way. It didn't bother me at all. I go visit her and take her a big brown bag full of baloney

sandwiches which she loved because she had no teeth. I took care of her. We had a class five hurricane that hit the island and we were supposed to iron my, we worked in pairs. So I and my partner were supposed to evacuate some equipment when the air speed got up of a certain height. So we're watching this animator and suddenly the animator jumped to like a hundred miles an hour or better. So we started jerking this classified equipment out, putting it in a Jeep in black bags. And we watched the plane as we were loading the Jeep.

We watched the plane take off and just fly off to Florida. So he says, well, what do we do? And I just put it back in. The trailer, transfer everything to this van that we had and get the loading chains that they delivered it with. We pounded two foot stakes into the car and chained it down on all four corners. Actually went into the hut and as we were shutting the door, two wild dogs came in with us.

They were probably the smartest animals on the planet. They came running in. So we shut the door and wrapped it with one inch strap and well, did it shut. So I've been in a lot of hurricanes in my life in Miami. Now that. And I knew that this is going to be a bad one because it was already a class four and it was coming up from Cuba. And it actually hit the island, came up the island and stood a half, half a mile away the edge of the eye for 23 hours or something. And you almost couldn't think inside this van because the gravel and sand hitting the wall of the metal van was excruciatingly loud.

And the two wild dogs wouldn't let us touch them, but they really loved the food we gave them. And when we got two feet of water in the van, I started thinking, we're in trouble. But I never got higher than that. We slept up on equipment racks with blankets and the dogs went up there with us. Climbed, I don't know, just climbed right on up. And when it was all over, we came out. Everything was gone. Everything. Completely destroyed. The trucks, the cheaps, the generators, the wires, the antennas, everything gone.

And the way it survived it. So I got an immediate, well, I got chest eyes for not following orders and being at the airport. That cost me a $50 fine, which I couldn't afford back then. My income is an E four. By then I was an E four specialist for was $72 a month, I think. Wow. And I got fine 70 bucks and I was like, uh, that's going to hurt.

I came to get a haircut with that. Yeah. And then, and then I came out, I was like, uh, that's going to hurt. I came to get a haircut with that. Yeah. And then, and then I came out, I was pissed and my boss said, now turn around and go right back in. And I said, why? He said, just turn around and go right back in. So I went back in and the guy smiled at me. I saluted and reported a second time and he said, no,

I'm going to promote you at the Bucks Sergeant and congratulate you on a job you did really well. So I got the, one of the first Mux Meritorious Unit citations or Meritorious Unit, not unit. It was a Meritorious metal. Okay. It was above Arkham. Wow. So, and then later I got promoted to E6. So, the guy that was training me became my junior

that worked for me. No kidding. Yeah. And so, I extended six months. And so I went straight from there to Vietnam. That was my second tour. How was, how did you receive the information that you were going to Vietnam? I mean, I'm, I'm, it was, it was well into the war by this point. If enjoyed 18. Oh, that was a story in itself.

I got sent from the island back to Homestead, Florida at the big air base there. We had an army unit and the army unit was working with the Navy there. And so I became an instructor for the Navy, teaching them how to work a piece of equipment that they never seen before. And it irritated them that an Army guy could walk into their area at total clearance to be behind their black, you know, law. Well, I did the best job I could. And I noticed every time the block allocation came out for Southeast Asia, my name was on it right at the top. It had a line through it with the colonels initials. So after the third occasion, I went by to see the Colonel and I said, I'm here

on a social visit. I said, I need to know why you keep lining me out and initially get, he said, well, I've had long conversations with your ex-boss and we've greased the scales conversations with your ex-boss and we've greased the scales for your going to officer candidate school. I said, no sir that's not gonna happen and he said who talked you out of it and I said me? That's not going. He said why not? I said because I will go when I want to go, not when you want me to go. And I will earn it. I'm not going to have anybody grease anything for me. And I walked out and the next block allocation came out, red line and initials again.

Someone backed to see him and I said, I thought we had this discussion. And he said, yeah, he said, but Southeast Asia is not in your future. And I said, it should be. I'm due, overdue. And I said, why are you doing this? And it turned out, and he's very open with me, his son died at age 18 from leukemia or something like that. And I looked almost identical to his dead son. And he had taken me on as somebody to protect. And I said, don't do this.

I will not receive this well. The next block allocation, Southeast Asia. That's how I got to Vietnam. So you wanted to go? I wanted to go, yeah. That was in, that was part of being in the military for me. That was like, that's where it all is. It's a war.

That's where they send people in the army. You know? That, I felt I was well-trained. I knew what I was doing. Why not? Didn't make any sense to me that somebody was keeping me out of it. It just, it angered me in a sense.

Were there a lot of people at that time that actually wanted to go to the war? No, no, no. Because nowadays we don't hear that. No, there was huge demonstrations starting to build for resentment about it. Nobody wanted to be drafted, nobody wanted to volunteer. It was a bad war, nobody was not a good thing. But I felt, I felt like it's denial. It's like, stupid. You got it.

If you're in the army and you're a volunteer, that's what you do. You go where the war is, you go where the fight is, you go where you're needed. And so, I went to Vietnam. And funny thing happened when I got to Vietnam and I walked in my first orally room that I had these orders in a packet that said not to be diverted by anybody no matter what their rank by order of some general summer.

The first thing they tried to do was divert me. Divert me to a colonel who came in with a Jeep and a Five-Ton and was looking for 25 warm bodies. And he had blood on him and I said, I'm not going where he's going. Obviously, he's not very good at what he does. So I just walked away from him and went to the tent of the guy who was running the Repo Dampo and just walked into his tent and laid in his cot and took a nap. My orders said not to be diverted, so I took it seriously. So I finally got my orders to go up to the 330th radio recon in Placo area, Central Isles. And so when I got up there and I walked in the orderly room, they said, Oh, you're already in these six. And I said,

Oh, yeah. He handed me another E6, right? And I said, oh yeah. And he handed me another E6 stripe. And I said, what's this? He said, well, that's the blood stripe we were going to give you when you walked in. You know what a blood stripe is? What is it? That back then it meant the guy you were replacing was killed. Oh, shit. So you got his rank to take over.

And I said, I don't know anything about what he was killed. Oh, yeah. So you got his rank to take over. And I said, I don't know anything about what he was doing. They said, well, nevertheless, you're in charge of it. And so I met the first guys I met. I said, I'm not charging you guys, you're in charge of me because I've not been here before. So until I'm comfortable, before. So until I'm comfortable, I'll do everybody else's job. But the guy who's been here the longest, you're in charge. So that's how I did it. And so what was your, what was your mission? My mission in Vietnam was many-fold. One was predominantly running out stations, what we call out stations for direction planning. We had some five or six HF, high-frequency direction planning stations and they were out of the way. They might have six possibly upwards of eight men assigned to them, but there were huge

bunkers in the center of an antenna field that would do direction finding. And getting from the outside of the antenna field to the inside of one of those bunkers. Usually required somebody coming out and meeting you and saying, step where I step. Because there was no other defense. They had swing rack twin fifties on top of the bunker and big search lights and a lot of bluebie traps and a lot of bluebie traps. Yeah. A lot of mines and stuff. And generally speaking, the enemy usually left it alone, but when they decided they wanted to take one out, it was Katie Barthador, that kind of thing.

A lot of support fire, which is predominantly what the bunker was for because it was always danger close stuff. But nevertheless, that's what I did is I managed those things, those sites and things like that. And we had a thing called an NPRD-1 at the time. I don't know if you are familiar with that. I am not. An ARP, PRD-1 was basically a radio with a rotational antenna on top, industrialized information, in the HF area.

It's at the time it was the most modern stuff they had at the end of the Second World War. Okay. So that piece of equipment Second World War. Okay. So that piece of equipment, the weight, 68 pounds. It was considered man packable. Oh man. So you could dismantle it and man pack it. This was back in the hard days. Problem was it had batteries.

The fricking batteries weight 60 pounds a piece. So it was like crazy. So the best we could do is we would hard mount it in a Jeep and the Jeep that I went to the motor pool and selected a Jeep. And I told the motor pool sergeant, I said, you got any V8s laying around. I had a V8 put in my Jeep. I had the windshield taken off. I had a cutter bar put up in the front, welded in the front, two layers of sandbags laid in it.

It was the fastest freaking Jeep on the planet. And you know, this is something I never understood. You're in a combat area. You're in a heavily fortified combat area. So they dropped the speed limit to 25 miles an hour because of all the troops walking around. Bullshit, I'm not going down at 25 miles an hour. IEDs are set at 25 miles an hour. IEDs are set at 25 miles an hour.

I blow through there at 70 and they'd be gone off, you know, half a mile behind me. Or if my driver happened to hit a piece of cardboard in the road, I usually beat him senseless with my helmet. It was like, no, no, 70 miles an hour is comfortable. And they have these things where they stop everybody to form up a convoy, where they can mount heavy mortar teams and a truck in the front and a truck in the back and, you know,

all this protection for our convoy and what do they do? The bottom of the mountain pass going up the other side they hit the lead truck, the tail truck, blast the bridge out of condition and then rake it as long as they can before cover arrives and cover is not very efficient in the mountains anyway. So, no, we come up for these convoys and I pull out my special pass as an intelligence guy and I'd say, move those barricades. We blow through there. I figured they're never going to open up on us with just a single Jeep. Yeah, they're waiting for that Convoy and so we'd be going down the road to I don't know to the coast

out of the mountains out on K to the coast and We'd but we go by areas where you could see them setting up their mortar Implacements and their heavy gun emplacements. Their Russian heavy machine guns and stuff. Wow. We just blow through there. Is this a single jeep? Yeah, single jeep.

We might draw some ground fire, but they couldn't hit us. Yeah. That kind of stuff. What kind of intelligence ops are you running? Wanted to find the headquarters for most of these units like the 144th, the 145th, North Vietnamese division or whatever they call it. I can't remember now. Usually the larger units, the headquarters units, we're looking for their prime headquarters. Okay. And if we could locate that,

by locating the antenna first, their prime broadcast antenna, then once we located that, then we could go into the area and suss out where some of their main units were. And then once we had built a schematic of how they were laid out, we could call in, you know,

Okay. So you guys were kind of triangulating on enemy, enemy HQs. Right. And then, and then ordering the HQs. Sometimes we got smaller units that were operating the area that were doing a lot of damage. They would bring us in on that. I remember one, and we took a lot of photographs too, sometimes when we saw things that were obviously enemy, active things. So this is almost maybe, I mean, along the lines of what NSA is doing. Yeah, basically, but way up front.

And when I first got there, we lived in the base camp, we lived in a hole in the ground. It was actually a hole dug in the ground for a cheapy medium. And there were six guys in the hole living together. And so we just had the tent top spread out with a trench dug around it. And we had ammo crates for floor. So when it got wet and mucky in the bottom, we could walk around on the ammo crates and it was dry. And we had a couple of tent poles in the center and so we were sleeping right up against the dugout wall Then we could sandbag or sleeping cots

It was really warm comfortable dry We get a rat in there we know and then but We found us a dog calling big red. Excuse me, Buck Sergeant Red. And we turned him into an alcoholic. He got the liking beer so much, the worst beer in the world. Blue Ribbon, I can't. Perhaps Blue Ribbon.

Blue Ribbon in the steel cans that rusted. Okay, perhaps blue ribbon in the steel cans it rusted But we give him a beer for any raft that he brought us dead He turned into such an Will work for beer every morning We throw the tent flap back and he'd be like this Sound asleep by the entry. Two dead rats laid in front.

So two paps, blue ribbon, beers for breakfast. Then he was happy. That's awesome. And you'd see him around the unit sitting with his ears like this, staring at a rat hole. Not moving like stone statue dog.

That rat stick his nose out, he had one more beer. I read that you were in a Hilo crash in Vietnam. Yeah, you could call it a crash. It was more or less like blown out of the sky. We were, I hitched a ride coming back to Placo. I didn't want to take a vehicle ride for some reason. It was just quicker. I want to get back to Placo city. So I hitched a ride on a helicopter and I had it. I had my rucksack. I had all my equipment with me and So I was riding in this helicopter in Vietnam. The heat was so bad that

Helicopters back down with the smaller engines just couldn't lift off they had to take out like a Aircraft takeoff they had to move in ground effect like an airplane. Once they got above a certain height, like only four or 500 feet, they could operate like a helicopter because the air got heavier. And so landing was the same problem. So we were coming into Placoodland So we're cruising along the outside edge of the runway to where the helicopter parking pad was and They waved us off because they had a big cargo plane coming in So we moved over to the trees and went to about a hundred feet over the trees

Not above the trees. It's like around a hundred, a hundred and twenty feet total, but we were over the tops of the trees and the air was cooler. So I was sitting on the side of the helicopter with my feet on the sked and I'm pretty sure we got hit with an RPG right in the belly because there was this white fireball. That's all I remembered. And I woke up on the ground and I had fallen through trees, I guess ricocheting off the limbs or something. But when I landed, I landed in a flat sitting position. So I was

sitting on the ground like this with my rucksack still on, but my rifle was laying way out here somewhere. I think I was still carrying a rifle in, but so I reached, went to reach for it and passed out from the pain because the impact had jammed my spine. It had multi-fractured my spine to some degree and I was in a lot of pain. So I was eventually able to, it was right at dusk when this happened. So I was able to roll over because I was hearing things in the bushes. I didn't like. And all I had was, I had a knife and I found a really good fist-sized rock.

So I crawled up into some bushes and just laid there, you know, in the field position, hoping if somebody found me, I wouldn't have to get into it. And I was out there all night like that. And then the next day, they came in to recover the wreckage, I guess, for parts or something. And they found a number of us still alive. There was. So you weren't the only survivor. I want the only survivor, just about everybody survived. There might have been one better.

Somebody died later. I don't know. I just know when I got to the mash unit, I was one of the fewer damaged people. I just had a spine compression. That's what they call it. So they put me in traction. They actually put metal pins in my skull and hooked wire sandbags.

And so I was like taught over this, this caught for, oh God, they had me there for like two weeks in traction. I started feeling pretty good. And then they had a bunch of people come in wounded and they said, sorry, we're going to take you out of traction. We think you're going to be okay. They took me out of traction. I stood up and almost passed out because of the

recompression of standing up. And they gave me a couple shots and they handed me a big bottle of Percocets. I remember it was like this big around about this tall. And they said, you're going to be all right. Take these. Go back to your unit and walk it off. Trick or treat. Trick or treat. So I went back to unit and that's what I did. I walked it off. It was a lot of pain, but it started easing the more

percussets I took. Yeah. The better it got. And we even had some speed that we could, some speed that we would take sometimes, which caused some problems because then you couldn't get something to go to sleep with. So we all started drinking jack Daniels and throwing the cap away, that kind of thing. Chasing the dragon.

But yeah, which I really paid for when I got out of here. I mean, that's a much later story. But, um, I just learned to deal with it. A lot of guys in Vietnam saw some weird things in the jungle. You didn't have to be in the jungle to see weird things. Really? My first week there, I saw probably one of the worst things I ever seen in my life. I was in a three-quarter ton sitting up front. We pulled up to an intersection of a main road. And the three quarter was right behind a. They call it a Lalo truck or a. I can't remember what they call them.

Some type of an indigenous vehicle. Yeah, I was like a motorcycle with seats in the back for up to six people. Like a Tuck Tuck or something? Tuck Tuck, yeah. That's what they call Tuck Tuck. And it was a woman and a small boy in the back, in the driver, revving his engine. And it was a convoy of trucks going through and the convoy were all low boys with tanks on them and APCs and you know heavy equipment And there are they're blowing through this

Intersection one behind the other and sometimes it was a break But the convoy kept going and this guy got a break. He I guess he thought he could make it and He gunned the engine and he popped the clutch and he got out in the middle and it stalled. Bang, the next convoy truck hit him hard. Spun him around in the back wheels so the trailer went over him. And then every truck behind that bang bang every single one of them

hit that tuck tuck and started pounding it down in size to the point you cannot see the difference between the metal and the bodies it was just like a big spongy mess in the middle of the road. No stop. Nobody, the convoy just kept falling through there. And I've always thought. So they just didn't show up at home. Nobody could have known who they were. Yeah. You know, but nobody stopped. Nobody gave a shit.

They just. It was nothing. The bang. That was nothing. And I can't, I can't get that out of my head. That, that was my introduction to Southeast Asia. That and little kids, Innocent kids. I, since then, it's kind of interesting.

I probably wouldn't do a thing for an adult in trouble. I just, yeah, okay. But kids and dogs are cats. Innocent animals, innocent children are what hurts. That's what drives me crazy. So if I see a child being mistreated or something, takes a lot of willpower to walk away without

pounding somebody into the pavement. You know, I just can't, I can't deal with that. But grown adults, I'll give a shit. You asked for it, you earned it. You know, you're that stupid, well, that's life. I've always felt that way ever since my military career. And it's probably unfair. It's probably bad thinking, I don't know. Well, I mean, don't you think that that maybe

kind of mindset develops as you experience war and see the lengths that humans will go to to get what they want, prove a point, egos get involved in, oh yeah. You know, in, but even just the war, you know, by traveling around the world. And I mean, you'd had some, I don't know what you were doing in the Bahamas,

but, you know, the Bahamas, Vietnam, I mean, you, you, I've been all over the world. You start to see humanity for what it is. Yeah, I think so. But I got to tell you that the average human being walking on the street has no control over what the government's doing. It's the politicians to start wars.

It's the military you have to finish them, clean them up, end them, wherever you want to look at it. I had a dinner with probably five generals in the rest of her colonels, Russian generals and colonels. And of course, they're heavy into the vodka and whatnot. There's a reason for that, by the way. They drink three vodkas who ever got up and left the room or spies, KGB, FSB, internal security. If they have a third drink, they can't testify in court. So they get up and leave when the third drinks poured.

And after they leave, there's one thing she had interesting because they all agreed it's politicians that Destroy a country from the inside out It's never the people they're willing to die for the country politicians and They dislike politicians almost as much as I do Glad you brought that up. Yeah, I really do. I just like the idea that somebody can just arbitrarily start a war based on some stupid

policies without sitting down and talking about it or talking it out. It's corrupt because the people they represent shouldn't be set up for that or subjected to that without to say so. Now, I understand government has to do certain things. Government has to set certain policies, all that kind of crap, but it's usually for the good of the big companies, economy, money, power, and it degrades into worse stuff. You know, it took me a long time to come to that conclusion and realization and... It's hard to get there, it really is, because your idealism gets in the way.

You want to believe it's better than that. You want to believe that people are smarter than that, that people are more aware of what the hell is going on. Most people aren't aware, they don't want to be aware. It's like inconvenient. It affects their decision making at work. It affects their decision making in regard to their family, their income.

Everything goes to security, secure first, then deal with those issues. But you never get to those issues. It's always too much else that goes on. Did, when did you come to that conclusion, Joe? I came to that conclusion when I got into this special project. So after, after Vietnam?

Yeah, oh well, yeah, a. So after Vietnam? Yeah. Oh, well, yeah, a long time after Vietnam. I spent better than seven years in Europe and spent 14 months in Thailand up in New Rontani, which was basically the CIA headquarters for the operations in Austin, Cambodia. And I lived in the village of Nankai for off and on for quite a few months, which is where all the operatives lived, going in and out of the intent and other places in upcountry. So I met a lot of the indigenous folks who were smugglers and gun runners and drug sellers and that sort of thing. Did you have an experience with some type of a medicine man over there Trying to think I had an experience with a really bad doctor

Oh wait a minute. No, I had an experience of the medicine man Actually, I didn't have that experience me back me back up. I had an event that happened when I was living in Nunkai. I lived in a hut that was off the ground in Nunkai. It was probably 500 years old, this hut. It was 15, maybe 17 feet off the ground. You went up and down through a ladder, the center hole in the hut. And when you got up at night, you pull the ladder up, shut the trapdoor and put a pin through it.

So that was security. Below you, there was a walkway to the ladder, but inside that wired-in area under the hut is where you kept the pigs. Pigs are a great alarm. You wake up pig up in the middle of the night. They start going crazy. So they make great alarms. So everybody keeps pigs under their hut. And so I slept on a pad that was on the floor and I had a little candle. It's usually lit.

And I had a beam that went across my head, maybe just high above my head. So I sat up too quick I hit the beam but on this side of the beam where my head would hit were two pins and I had a combat shotgun laying up there with Alternating solid slug triple X That was my go-to weapon if something happened in the middle of the night. And it's one night, well I had an open balcony. It had, you wanted a window, you just cut a window with a chainsaw. The bugs weren't bad because I had Lizards hanging off the ceiling that would run over and suck up the the bugs flying in Anyway

it was a nice place to sleep and live and I Had a cook and a maid and a gardener and a garden. I don't know what else. And it was like 70 bucks a month. So I was sleeping there. You know, you come awake sometimes and you know there's somebody in the room with you, but your eyes are shut and that something wakes you up. It's probably some very tiny noise. It doesn't fit or something but I became consciously awake and aware something was in the room with me and I was laying with my eyes shut so I had this whole thing in my head. I'm gonna roll to the right taking the gun with me and'm going to bring it to my chest and rack

around as I roll over the candle to put the light out. And whatever's standing in the room, if it's standing in the room, I'm going to hit it with a solid slug first. And that's what I did. And everything worked like clockwork and it was this figure of a human standing at the foot of the pad on the other side of the trap door, which was still locked in pin by the way. Pigs are not mad sound, nothing.

And so I hit this thing square in the chest. I mean right here with a solid slug and it slammed it against the wall and dropped in one knee and then stood up again. And I went in my head I was thinking, well come on a body armor. So I shot it again with a triple X and it almost dropped to a knee and stood back up again and then took off for the balcony and I think I hit it a third time as it was going over the balcony. And I'm a pretty good shot. I went to the balcony and looked over expecting to see a body laying there.

It was up on its feet heading for the jungle already and I was all I could think of was I want the armor. I couldn't think of what the hell was that? And then I talked to the village chief about it. He gave it a name. I can't remember what he called it, but he said it was like an assassin that people could Take a plate of food or something into this place of special place in the jungle

Put a name on top and lay the plate of food out there and This thing would read the message and put that person down and sat in it. I thought, nice story. But I couldn't find any trails or anything so I couldn't do anything about it. So that was in 1972. Was there any remnants of anything inside the hut? Absolutely nothing just shells Just empty shell casings no holes in the wall

nothing So You know I could understand Some flatten rounds or something from it, you know triple X is just basically 1030 round ball pings That had to do something yeah, but it didn't and and whatever this armor is it was taking it in and Holding it in some way. So it's probably soft. I'm gonna soft armor. I don't know But Wow, I didn't know what to do with that so that was 72 flash forward to probably 10 years ago now at the Monroe Institute

where I teach remote viewing and whatnot I met a guy there at one of my talks. He was attending a gateway program and he was a cryptozoologist from, he said he was doing work for the Smithsonian at the time. I don't know if that was the same time he was in Thailand or not, but he was a cryptozoologist. They hunt for animals that have never been seen before or bugs or stuff like that that no one's ever seen. And he was telling me about this little deer that walked out of the jungles in Vietnam at the end of the war. No one had ever seen one. It was the size of a dog, little bitty thing. And it had horns that came out of its snout and went up its face around

the eyes. It came over like two hooks. And that was their nose. They actually breathed through that while they were eating watercress because the water would always be up to here So they breathe through these horns while they ate watercress. That's what their favorite food evidently No one had ever seen one before no one had ever eaten one or skinned it or anything There was no evidence that it ever been seen before by anybody and They walked out of the jungle at the end of the war. And I was like, how does something do that? Go through the whole war of Vietnam and survive. You know, it's like with all the arc lights and the bombing and the shelling. Wow. And he was telling me about that.

He said, but that wasn't the most unusual thing that happened. I said, what was that? He said he said, we were under the protection of a paramilitary police force out of Thailand. And they would set up a camp and they had these tents that they were walled tents. They would set up and they had two cots in the tent. And so wherever they set up to do a scouring of the jungle for these animals and bugs and things they would put up three rolls of concertina

wire and search lights and all that kind of stuff and provide protection because there are a lot of bandits up there and whatnot and he said I was awakened one night by my partner in the bed next to me and the cot next to me. And he said, when I looked over, there was this human figure on top of him, strangling him and he was choking. So he said, I can't remember what caliber pistol he said he had but he he reached in his boot pulled his pistol out and shot this figure in the side twice And it rolled off on the floor and got up and ran out of the tent and by then all this the lights came on and all the guards fired some rounds in the air and

this thing shot across the area and went over the three rolls of Constantine and vanished into the jungle. They couldn't say anything about it, but his friend had ripped out big chunks of hair in both hands, which they put together and put in an envelope, milled it back to the whoever, whatever land they use. So the next morning they found a blood trail. So they followed it and he said it went for a few kilometers and it popped into a village and they went to the village head, head man and talked to him and he said no nobody was shot in the village that he was aware of

But his medicine man was sick So they said can we talk to your medicine man and they said sure So they went and talked to the medicine man And the medicine man was really ill He was laying in the bed and he had two bullet holes in the side But he was in his 80s. He was in his 80s not a hair on his body. I Don't know what to make of that. He doesn't know what to make of that. But then that's when I told him about my experience in 72.

So yeah, I mean, you got to wonder about that stuff. I don't, I can't attest anything other than the fact I know I hit it three times or twice anyway. And I didn't even slow it down. And he shot it twice in the side and the minister man had two bull holes in him. So. So that was, that was in 1971?

72 for me. With him, it was like 10 years ago when he related to STEMI and he'd just come back. So this is 52 years ago? Yeah. 52 years. You still have no answers? No answers. I mean, that's the kind of thing that will, that would haunt me for the rest of my life.

I want to go back there and see if we can find it. What do you think that may have been? I don't know. I think it's a mixture of things. I think it's somebody who fulfilled the worst nightmares of people dressed in a body armor suit that could take the rounds. Maybe when he was younger, could take the rounds better. When he was older, maybe put the suit on wrong or it didn't have good side protection because

most body armor doesn't have good side protection. It has good front, good back protection, but no lateral protection. So if you're going to get, if you're going to, like President Reagan, when he was hit was a ricochet off the door frame or something caught him in the side. You know he's wearing body armor under his jacket or his coat. So I think it's a combination of that. Maybe covering it with some kind of hair off another real animal or something because the report he claims they got back was dog hair no specific species. So if they couldn't isolate the species then it could have been off a number of different animals, you know, all mixed That kind of thing. So I think it's a local, who knows?

You know, I just don't know. But I think it would be interesting to go back there and find out. Definitely be interesting. Find out. But you mean even an 82 year old? Yeah, couldn't a jump three? Villager. Well, he was in really good shape and was taking drugs, maybe.

Yeah. Even today's body armor, to take a slug. Oh, no. You know, I mean. No. He'd have to be 19 years old, physically better fit than I was, and the armor had to be impeccably good. I mean, just like nobody's business. I'd always back in my memory was always thinking, God, be great to have a piece of that

armor. Yeah. See how it's made or how it's constructed. Wow. I have a retired Colonel friend who came up with an idea of using spider wire, which was the new fishing line And a new weaving concept to make body armor lighter and more efficient He worked on that his whole career as part-time

It came up with some pretty good ideas in terms of the weaving methodology because it would tighten up as it was hit, you know, and but the weave was very tight. It wouldn't come apart if some of the strands got broken. That sort of thing. He had some good ideas there. I don't know what happened to him, but he really had some good ideas. But anyway, that's digressing. I just I've always wanted to like go back. I would want to go back to. Yeah, I have one now.

I don't know what the hell that was. But it scared the bejesus out of me when it happened. was. But it scared the bejesus out of me when it happened and I didn't feel particularly quick about wanting to run off in the jungle after that thing. All that. I'll be shooting for the ankles maybe. Or a headshot or the other. Yeah. Triple X for the head and solid suck for the ankles. I don't know. Wow. That is... I don't even know what I'd do.

That's something I would love to know. How many of you heard of other people besides you and the other gentlemen? The one guy and me. I never expected to hear it again from anybody. But when the guy told me he was a crypto zoologist and was in that area and said, oh, this really weird thing happened. He told me about it.

I was like, ah. Wow. Yeah. There it is. When was your first, when did you get poisoned? When I first started this whole podcasting thing, an online store was about as far from my mind

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Was that in this timeframe? No, that was... Let me think a minute. That was after Thailand. That was... No, I'm sorry. It was before Thailand. It was my... Towards the end of my first tour in Germany. Tour being three years. And I was

working in, well I can't talk about what I was working in, but I could meet my wife every now and then. So a friend of mine brought her to the restaurant where we met, which was in Brunau, Omsi, which was across the El River in Austria. Really nice restaurant. Brunau is the same city that Hitler was born in. Born over of Wichita, go figure, you know. So, but this was a great restaurant. So I asked him to stick around, have dinner with us since he had broader and driven so far. We were probably 200 kilometers from where the unit was that I was assigned to. So we ordered dinner and we had before dinner drinks.

And all I did was take a couple sips of my drink and started feeling really bad. And I didn't want to be, I felt like I was going to start barfing any minute. I didn't want to do that in a restaurant. So I headed for the front door. And when I got to the front door, I remember hitting it with my hand. It was a glass swinging door. The door swung open and it was like a pop.

It actually looked like a snap. You snap your fingers. And I was standing on a cobblestone street. And it was a warm rain. And it was standing on a cobblestone street and it was a warm rain and it was falling. Yeah, but I didn't feel like I was getting wet. So I went like this and noticed the rain was going through my hands. And I said, oh, now that's strange.

And when I looked up, I saw this body half in and half out of this door. But I wasn't making that connection right away. So I kind of drifted over, which should have been a good way, but I wasn't paying attention to that. I was paying attention to the body. I was paying attention to the body. And I saw it was me playing on the concrete. At the entry. And then the guy that brought my wife to the restaurant came out and grabbed me

and pulled me up into his lap. He dropped to the pavement, pulled me up in his lap and felt for a pulse somewhere in my neck I guess and then he started yelling at me, breathe sucker, he smacked me in the chest because we didn't have CPR back then, nobody was trained in any of that stuff and every time he hit me in the chest, I'd be back in my body, looking up at him in this incredibly intense pain. And I'd be saying to him, I like stop. I was trying to get the words out and I couldn't get them out and I'd be standing outside my body looking down again. And he hit me in the chest and I'd be back in my body in this excruciating pain and I go, please, can I be out of my body looking down again?

And I guess my wish came true because I stayed out then I just watched and he kept hitting me on the chest, nothing was working. And then he disappeared and my ex-wife was down on her knees and she was crying. And then this Volkswagen pulled up and I think that's what he had brought her to the dinner in. to the dinner. So he jerked me up off the ground. He's my generator mechanic. So he was really a big guy and he just jerked me up off the ground, threw me over his shoulder and threw me in the back seat of the Volkswagen. And I'm standing outside watching all this. And then they took off and I was like, whoa. Some flying along beside the car. Don't stop.

You're in a full out of body experience. Full blown out of body. This is the first one you've had. First one I ever had my whole life. I'm yelling stop, stop. And then the next thing I knew I was kind of like in the back seat of the car hovering, what you can't do with your old body. But I had that sense.

And I saw him blow through the, back then they had customs from Austria and the Germany and Germany and Austria, that kind of thing. He blew right through the customs check. I'm a hard right. Now we're back in Germany. He drove for quite a while back across through another customs into Austria and then back through another customs in the Germany. He had to go around the city or something. But what we wound up was over near a city called Passau. It's way down in the southern tip

of the area. And he went to a, let's call clinic or clinic or something it's not a full-blown hospital. It's like a clinic and He pulled me out of the car threw me over shoulder and went to the door and the door was locked and I was like I'm thinking watching this in that just like hospital, to be locked up when you need it. But you start kicking the door with his foot really hard. And this doctor rolls up to the door in a wheelchair. And I'm thinking, no, this has got to be a dream. That's what I started thinking. But the doctor unlocked the door. And I found out later that's what they do.

They locked the door after seven o'clock or eight o'clock at night and brought him in. He laid me on a table in an emergency room with the big lights and all that stuff. Are you still out of body at this point? Yeah, I'm hovering in that room watching them cutting my clothes off and sticking all kinds of things up in my throat and up my nose and all stuff. So I don't know what the hell's going on, but I'm feeling a lot of heat on the back of my neck. And I thought this must be the emergency light and I must be bumping up against it. That's what my thought was.

I turned around and I was enveloped in a white light. The light was the brightest light I've ever been in but the least disturbing It was like total complete Comfort It's like being in the hand of God And this voice said it's okay And I was like yeah, this is perfect. This is what you can't stay. I went, I'm looking for something to hold on to.

You're not pulling me out of here. I'm actually looking for a handle or something. I can hold on to it. And I suddenly woke up. I sat up and I was totally naked under a sheet and I had tubes and wires sucked all up to my body and I looked around and there was this German patient playing in this bed next to me. And I looked at him and I said, hey, it's okay, God's a white light and you can't cease

to exist. Out the door the patient went. In comes a doctor. So you're awake. Not anymore. Off I went again. I woke up the next day. It was daylight and I was on a gurney and I had a mask on my face that was actually taped down. And I was strapped to this gurney, arms and all up on the back of seats. And it was a stretch limo. They had actually put me in a stretch limo and they had tin foil taped over all the windows. And off we went and I'm yelling, I'm trying to yell, through the mask, where are we going?

What's going on? And I just fell back into the comfort of whatever was going on. It didn't awaken again until much later, and it was dark again. And when I woke up that time, I was in a hospital bed in a room that had some great views of gardens and stuff outside. And what it was, it was the in room at a rest home. They had leased the entire wing, which was empty except for that in room and I was in the end room and it was a psychiatrist there. And he said, you've had an interesting experience.

I don't want you to talk down. I said, bullshit. I want to know where I am, what's going on, et cetera. And he said, well, I can't tell you that. And I said, well, who can get them in here? Let's talk about it. No, you need to relax. You need to rest.

And I just kept getting one more hyper. So they pulled him out of there. And the next morning I fell asleep again. The next morning when I woke up, there was a new psychiatrist in the room and he was sitting there and he looked over at me and he smiled and he said, welcome back. And I said, who are you? And he told me, Journal so-and-so, I'm a staff psychiatrist. I think he said he was with the 66 MI, but I may be inserting that. I can't remember. But he said, if you want to talk, I'm here to talk. And he just pretty much left me alone. And so I started asking him how long I'd been there and stuff and he gave me straight up answers and I got the liking him and then

he leaned over and he said, what you want to do is you want to try to be normal here if you expect to leave and set back. I thought about it a while. I leaned over to him and I said, what's normal? Tell me what's normal and I'll be as normal as you want me to be because this whole thing's a trip for me. I thought I'd been heavily drugged and I probably had been up to that point. But they didn't know what happened to me and I don't know what happened to me. All they assumed was there had been irreparable brain damage because every time they asked me what happened, I kept saying,

I went and I was with God, who's a white light. You can't cease to exist. That's all I know. And it's the most comfortable place you could ever be. That's all I know. And it's the most comfortable place you could ever be. Okay, get a little more rest. They weren't buying that. They thought I was brain damaged.

So I started saying, where's my wife? Don't worry about her. We'll get her in here eventually What they had done I Was the detachment commander at the time of a Border site which I can't go into in any depth And they had let everybody at my And they had let everybody at my

Borderside know and that's probably at that time. I think I had 13 people aside Think that I was dead That I had died as a result what happened at the the restaurant So Turns out They even let my wife think I was dead too. Holy shit. Because they didn't know what had happened. And that's when the thinking came out, well, maybe this was an attempted assassination

or something. And I kept saying, no, it's something in what I drank. Maybe, I kept saying, maybe it's, I'm allergic to something in my drink. Well, the closest they came was, they said it was probably a binary poison. I said, what the hell is a binary poison? And the guy told me that the person I was talking to, one of the psychiatrists, he was

a medical doctor. He said it's basically two enzymes. You give me, you get an enzyme with your breakfast. It's in the scrambled eggs. So everybody that has scrambled eggs that morning with you gets enzyme A. Enzyme B comes later that day. Enzyme A is stored in your liver. Enzyme B, you get in your beef or dinner drink, enzyme B you get in your B4 denitrate as does everyone else that waters that drink. So it's not, you can't, you don't target somebody specifically but in reality you do.

Only the targeted individual gets both enzymes. When they combine in the liver, they create a thern enzyme which creates a stroke, a massive heart attack, something that mimics natural death. And if this poison was developed Stolen by us. Polished by us. Would be a way of putting it. Stolen back by the USSR. So nobody knows who did what to whom. And that's what they were trying to sort out. Plus they were trying to sort out whether or not, whether or not I had brain damage. And so over the course of about a week, they decided that there wasn't significant brain damage.

I had actually had that experience and that I had actually been out of body, all those things that actually happened, and that was due to the psychiatrist I had who had evidently dealt with other people who had had out a significant out-of-body effects from near-death experiences, and he convinced them of that. So I was reassigned to the 66MI in unit. That's when my wife was brought in. Now, you had later been trained on how to control an out-of-body experience? Yes, I was trained by Robert Munrell,

who actually wrote the book on out-of-body, Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Munrell. He actually brought it to the public forefront. I'm sure many people had that experience and never talked about it. He actually brought it to the public forefront. I'm sure many people had that experience. He'd never talked about it until he wrote his book. So, when I was judged to be an excellent remote viewer, they knew that I had been having spontaneous out of bodies ever since that event. So hold on.

How would that get triggered? There is no trigger. That's the problem. So it just happened. It would just happen. Does it still happen? Yeah. I still have spontaneous out of bodies every now and then.

There's a way to initiate them, which I haven't done since the project terminated. Actually, since I haven't done since I did a couple targets for Department of Defense, U of D. What they did is they actually came out and hired Bob Monroe to teach me how to initiate control my out-of-bodies. They wanted to see if intelligence could be collected that way that would be even better than remote viewing, more defined. So what I did for many, many months is I would leave Fort Meade after my remote viewing on a Thursday night, drive to Virginia to the Daly's Fort area of Virginia where the Monro Institute is located. And I would get up early on Friday morning and then Friday, all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday, I would work with Bob Monroe in his lab.

I'd start very early in the morning and we work all day just doing exercises where he was teaching me how to initiate it on a body and control it. Hard work, really difficult. Not so much initiating them but controlling them as a bitch. How do you initiate that? You lay in a certain position and you try to generate a repetitive vibration that starts at your feet.

And it like runs up your body to the top of your head and back down to your feet. Most people when they get this, get uncomfortable and they move around and it stops. If you generate it and it runs up to the head and down to the feet, you can keep it going. You can energize it. You can put more energy behind it to the point that you eventually separate from your body, roll out of your body so that you're looking down at your body or you pass through a wall and you're outside floating like in some suspended state of disbelief because it's as real as you and I are sitting

here talking when you're out of body and completely out of body. If you're not generating a fear of it or you're not falling victim to being afraid of what might happen, that sort of thing. So you need to be in full confidence? Yes. Initially, you have a, like I had a sense, every time I separated from my body that there was something evil in the room, something base, base evil that you couldn't deal with in the room with me.

And I asked Bob about it. He'd say, I'd be inside this black cube shielded box laying on the bed. He'd be in a different room monitoring me. And he'd say, it's okay, just go with it. I'd say, but what is that? And he'd say, you'll figure it out. That's all he would ever say, you'll figure it out. And it's something you have to deal with yourself. And he knew that. And at some point when I was hovering above my body, getting this just overwhelming feeling of base, ugly thing in the room with me, I roll over to confront it and it was my physical body underneath me. So your perceptions of baseness and ugliness and everything about

this evil is your physical presence. What's kind of interesting? Very interesting. It's when you're out of body, it's a higher form of sensing, a higher form of being. The problem with it is the next thing you have to control is how to go somewhere and do something. You can go out of body in the first thing that catches your attention is a chandelier in the next room.

But the chandelier when you pass into it is the most glorious thing you've ever seen in your whole life because you're collecting everything about it into your sense, your sense of it. And so it's like you just want to grovel in it. Everything is better than what you are. I mean, you just want to capture all of it. Things of beauty are 10 times more beautiful than things that you would normally not pay any attention to are the most gorgeous things on the planet. It's hard to not be distracted in the

out-of-body condition. So I did that and then, Monday morning at 4 a.m. I get up and drive back to Fort Mane. Can you feel... Can you feel energy flow? You can feel everything in the out of body condition. For instance, once you get control of it, then Bob would start giving me things to do. He'd say, go to the location in the envelope, and I'd go to whatever that location was. I'd be in the out-of-body state, and I'd say I'd me to the Basilica in Rome. It was in the envelope, the altar in the center of the Basilica of Rome. So I landed there in the out of body condition and there was a beam of white light came through the center of the dome

And just splattered on the floor It filled the whole room with light And I told him this is a place of light Column of just what looks like liquid energy light coming through the center of a dome. And he said, put your hand in it. Put my hand in it. I went, oh, wow. And he said, what are you feeling? And I said,

perfection. What do you mean? I don't know. Don't want to move. Just want to be here. It felt like unconditional love, perfection. Then I said housed in a box of broken glass or something like that. So, okay, fine. Pull your hand out. Why? Because I said so. I'll come in there and jerk you out of that bit. No, you didn't say that. But he'd say it's time to leave or something and I would do that But we we did that for quite a while and then people showed up While I was in the box and I was taking a nap because we've been working for quite a while And this is months later They showed up to test me and so I got two targets

which I was tested on and I did the two targets gave them wrote it all out afterwards and gave it to the representatives from the DoD. And after which they said, don't do this anymore. What is, I mean, what is your reaction to that? My reaction to that is, oh, you don't like the result. So now I'm not supposed to do it anymore. If it had been the result you wanted, then I would be doing it some more. That's how I felt in my head and everything.

The one target, the second target that I did. Let me, if you don't mind, can I rewind? Sure. So you were poisoned in an assassination attempt. You had an out of body experience. Then they wanted to study you at some, in the wing of some psych ward or hospital or something under medical supervision.

I don't think it was study. I think they were trying to determine whether I had irreversible brain damage or whether or not I was still sane and straight. From there, you went to be trained on by Bob Monroe and out of Maudi Experiences. From there, you went to be trained on by Bob Monroe and out of Maudi Experiences. No, from there, I finished a complete another tour in Germany, Northern Thailand did some things

in other countries and then came back to the States, made warrants, was in charge of my M.O.S. and then recruited by the psychic program, developed my psychic abilities to the point that some have said it's the best in the world. And that's when they decided, well, maybe it would be even better if you could go out of body to a target and collect data. Let's stay in chronological order. If that's okay, I would like to revisit this. Why do you think that so many people

who have out-of-body experiences, I've had several on the show who have had out-of-body experience in combat from being shot in the head or leg blown off of a... I can understand it. Why do you think that, why is it a near-death experience that seems to always trigger the initial

out-of-body experience? I think it's as close to death as you can ever come and still be here. That's what I think. Now, can it be generated? Yeah, you could generate it, but only within limited circumstances in terms of targeting something.

The second target I did is a good example. They gave me a picture of a building. And they said, we're not going to tell you where this building is. You're charged here, the mission. A, find the building. Once you found it, countries, nobody cares. Find this building. Once you find the building, go to the, I can't remember

what it was, second or third floor. Pass through the wall. Go down the hallway. Find the back vault door. Pass through the vault door into what's a, we'll call it a lab. Go to the northwest corner and there's a table and on the table is an object. Push your face into the object, collect as much data as you can, wake yourself up and draw it to detail in scale. Oh, peace of paper. That was my mission. It took me two and a half weeks of out of bodies just to find the building. And when I found the building it took three or four out of bodies to get to the vault room, but I was finally able to pass through the vault door, which is an experience in itself Passing through a vault door

You can actually feel it. It's like peeling your way through an onion with your molecular shape, it's I don't know how to explain that but it's like You can feel every molecule as you pass through it. I don't think it's so much the material as it's the denial of access that does that to you. I can't explain it.

But you get inside the room and you go to the northwest corner. I'm not sure I was at the northwest corner. I just went to wherever the table was. There was an object about this size on the table and I pushed my face into it and I memorized it in detail. I tried to understand how the parts center worked with each other, that kind of thing. And then woke myself up and I went in, I had a drafting table in my home and I drew a detailed picture of it. And I rolled it up, put it in a tube and mailed it to the people that had tasked me. They came out some weeks later, two guys, and they said, we have some questions you

want to ask you. And I said, fine. They said, where did you take high-energy physics? And I said, I have never taken high-energy physics anywhere. Okay, who do you know that's a high-energy physics and I said I have never taken high-energy physics anywhere. Okay, who do you know that's a high-energy physicist? And I said I know one guy Ed May, he's my good buddy from the lab, LFR, Lab Tours Fundamental Research. I've known him in the remote viewing area since I started. I said I know him. He's a low energy physicist. I don't know any high energy physicists. Okay. Where do you check your books out? What libraries? And I was like, oh, come on. I'm starting to think you don't believe what I did. You think I just psychically figured out what it was. And I've asked people in detail about it.

No, we just really want to know where you sign your books out. So I gave permission letters to go to the two libraries I used used and ask what books did you sign up that sort of thing? I Think they were very badly misled when they saw what books I signed out So I Got the idea that they didn't believe what happened and it pissed me off. So I said I could build something better than what I saw. What did you see? I'm not sure. Some kind of a trigger or something.

A device of some kind. a trigger or something. A device of some kind. I don't know, but I knew I could build one better just by going into light fiber. This is a copper wire thing. I said I could speed it up 100,000 times with light fiber. In fact, I could make it so fast it'll get warm when it runs or hot even and melt down. So I'd have to put it in an acrylic cube and run cool it through it. So I did all that and I drew it in detail, but it was down to about twice the size of a pack of cigarettes. And I drew it to scale in detail with lots of notes and stuff.

The big thing was there was a trigger in it. There are certain things that if you put too much power to them, it'll kill the city. You don't lose, shut all the power down. It's like the big lights over a football field. If you just snap a switch and turn them all on at one time, the city goes dead, goes dark. So they have these switches that are slow build switches. They come on very slowly and the lights come on very dim and they start brightening and eventually they come up to operating speed. That way the light doesn't explode when it's suddenly lit and all the power is going to

the lights and that sort of thing. Well I needed one of those switches and I couldn't find one. I went to three or four different electronic places. So I finally found a switch that would work and I drew that into the plan and I roll it up, put it up tube and mill it. They showed up the next day. Non-disclosure agreements, never promised never to draw this again ever. Don't show this to anybody. Don't talk about it in detail with anybody.

Blah, blah, blah. So I signed all the papers and said bye. I've never been tasked with another out-of-body target. Can I ask why you signed those papers? Because I didn't give a shit. Did it bother you that somebody was having you sign documents basically saying we're going to limit your mental capacity? No, because I can still go out of body anytime I want. I can still do things out of body.

I just don't tell people about it. Where was the building? I don't know. I honestly don't. How did you find it? I don't know the answer to that either. I just kept looking everywhere I went out of body. I just kept looking.

How did you begin the search? The search? Well, I just kept looking. How did you begin the search? The search? Well, I started in this country, and I went to Canada, and then I went to Mexico, and then I spread out from there. I just started looking for something identifiable. And I think there's an inherent way that out of body works. It gets you to what you're looking for.

If you can maintain the focus long enough. When you begin the search on your out of body, are you, is it like a bird's eye view or your stream level? I think it's a, in the out of body condition, it's like you can observe a lot of things simultaneously. You're not limited to what we're limited to in the body. Is it intuition? Yeah. For lack of a better word, it's more than that, but that comes close to it.

You're experiencing multiple locations at the same time, right? And you're able to process? Oh yeah, just in remote viewing, I'm able to process fast amounts of data. Because everything I get from a remote viewing standpoint, I don't necessarily retain. I get it, I start stacking it in different columns. One thing relates to another. I move columns around, then I collapse it back down to something that's definable.

Then I start deciding what I will use and what I won't use. I throw things out, I add things in. By the time I sketch something on a piece of paper, it's usually some time invested in the remote viewing. I just don't put everything down like I used to. When I first started in remote viewing, you have a tendency to write everything down. It's too slow. That's not how the brain works. The brain works rapidly, very fast. And it's an intuitive action because you're not wasting your time on things that don't apply.

You're only going with what applies. And in remote viewing, you have a, you come to a basic understanding for what it is you're looking for and then you try to define it in the way it's being used. So I should have brought some really good examples of my remote viewing with me where most people write a few words and do some sketchy stuff. I'll draw it in detail. An example would be if you want to hear an example. Absolutely. I would like to hear an example.

Okay. There was a, an agency came to us and said, can you track a spy? And we said, piece of cake. That's what I said. Piece of cake. My buddy, Dr. May, said, yeah, I think we could do it. And I said, what's in it for us? Because I was working for the lab at the time. And I knew that's what he would say. And they said, we'll give you, I don't know, I can't remember now how much it was. Let's say a quarter of a million

dollars. If you can prove you can track us by, we'll give you a quarter of a million dollars. And so he said, sure, peace of cake. So my targeting material, you're ready for this social security number. What does that tell you about a spy? You don't know if it's a 14 year old or an 85 year old. You don't know if it's male or female. You don't know if it's Chicago or San Francisco or New York City, right? Okay.

That was my targeting material. And we'll call you on the phone at different times and ask you to tell us where our spy is. Okay. times and ask you to tell us where our spy is. Okay. So first call I got was like three months later at 12.30 midnight when I was out on the West Coast working in the lab. But when I first arrived, I was in San Francisco staying with a psychologist that we had working

at the lab, a guy named Nevin Lance. So I'm staying in his home with him and his wife. And he gets awakened at 12.30 midnight. And there's some guy on the phone that says he wants to talk to you He woke me up. So I went to the kitchen and I answered the phone Tells where our spy is So I said okay, and I hung up and I drew I drew a picture of I'll think of it, Altoona Pass down near, I want to say Palo Alto, but it's way further south in it.

It's where they built the first group of wind generators. It's called a tuna pass. So I drew hills and I put in the towers and I put the rotating things on them. And I drew dotted lines together. I said, it's a big electrical grid. It's collected by the wind. It's a wind generating area. And he's parked by the central tower in a rental car.

That's exactly where he was. And it's a perfect drawing of Alto in the past. So. What are these, what do they say to that? Are they in disbelief? They didn't say a word to us. We just sent them that. So they said, okay, thank you. Didn't say it worked. Dr. May says, I don't give you a 99% on this one if it's true because

you didn't tell me what color the rental car is. So we're kidding with each other about this stuff, okay? So, time goes by a few months and I get another request. I was two in the afternoon or something. They just interrupted something I was doing. Can you tell us where our spy is? And I said, I worked out, oh, on such and such a date at such a time. Where was our spy? Such middle of the day, the time and date,

I have no idea other than it's like early, we early morning hours on some day of the week, just past. So I drew a corner of a lab place, put in parking lots, roads, trees, lining the roads, a T-shaped building right in the center. And I said, your spy is in the T-shaped building, which is otherwise known as the A building. That's the name of it A building. He's at the top floor, center of the T-shape. He's facing out through a picture window. You might otherwise call this the director's office. It's 12 30 midnight. He's got his feet crossed up on the director's desk and he's smoking one of the director's illegal Cuban

cigars. And so we sent him the picture. Now Ed showed the picture to some other people and they all went, oh yeah, that's the West Gate of Lawrenceville, more lavatories. That's where they built nuclear weapons. Where do you think he was sitting in the director's chair 1230 looking out of his picture window at the rest of the lab smoking one of his Cuban cigars. That was the second hit.

Wow. The third hit they said, okay, you've demonstrated, you can probably track a spy. That's nice. Tell us what he's doing. He's a creative kind of guy, so tell us what he's doing. He's in the middle of the desert. He's got two big tractor trailer trucks, vans, and he's working inside the vans and he's testing a piece of equipment.

It's a microwave equipment. It's operating on this frequency band and it's got a 60 degree bandwidth and he's targeting electronic equipment at a little over 60 to 150 yards for destructive purposes. Oh, in his hobby is he loves to drive for lunch. He likes to go over to this solar experimental station and watch the mirrors make a miniature sun on the end

of a tower. He loves to see that stuff. That's all we said. So they came back and said, maybe you'd like to see what he was actually working on. And so Ed and I said, sure. So they flew us out to Sandista Desert, Rina military car driving down the dirt road. And we come over a hill and they stopped us. They had a bucket on the road. They had this arm down the solar station, experimental station is doing a test. So you could actually smell

the ozone in the air with these mirrors when they made a miniature sun on top of the tower. It's crackling up there. You could smell the ozone. I mean, it was beautiful. Wow. I mean, it was beautiful. And the whole experiment and oh, and Ed's looking at the dry re-sane. You know, if you had a bag, I'd put it over this guy's head because he's not supposed to be reporting on this. So they lift the guard gate. So we head on down the road and we see this dust cloud coming down

the side road from the solar array and it pulls out in the road right in front of us and accelerates away down the road and so we follow that dust cloud and pull into the same place. Two big vans sitting on tractor trailer trucks And it's exactly what I drew. I drew like, you know, 15 drawings, about 75 pages of transcript. They gave all that material to an independent agency and they said exactly what it did and said they could build it. And that's exactly what he was doing, what I said he was doing. And when they came back and said was, our spy has no hobbies. And we asked the guy where he was coming from for lunch.

He said, oh, it's kind of my hobby. I go over there for lunch to watch the solar array. We made sure we put it in his statement in the letter we sent back to him. So he said, that's the only thing I had wrong. we make sure we put it at his statement in the letter we sent back to him. So he said, that's the only thing I had wrong. That, that's an example of my viewing at the end of my seven year career at Fort Meade. You still have those sketches? Yeah.

I can send them to you. That would be great. We'd like to overlap over overlay them over the interview. Yeah. Joe, let's take a break. Okay. When we come back, I want to talk about how you were recruited into the remote viewing program. That's a good idea.

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I want to give a big thank you out right now to all the vigilance elite patrons out there that are watching the show right now. Just want to say thank you guys. You are our top supporters and you're what makes this show actually happen. If you're not on Vigilance Lead Patreon, I want to tell you a little bit about what's going on in there. So we do a little bit of everything. There's plenty of behind-the-scenes content from the actual Sean Ryan show. On top of that, basically what I do is I take a lot of the questions that I get from you guys or the patrons and then I turn them into videos.

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at the end of every month, where we can talk about whatever topics you guys have. It's actually done on Zoom. You might enjoy it. Check it out. And if Zoom's not your thing or you don't like live chats, like I said, there's a library of well over 100 videos on where to start with prepping, all the firearm stuff, pretty much anything you can think of.

It's on there. So anyways go to www.patreon.com slash vigilance elite or just go in the link in the description it'll take you right there and if you don't want to and you just want to continue to watch the show that's fine too. I appreciate it either way love you all let's get back to the show. Thank you. All right, Joe, we're back from the break. We're getting ready to dive into how you recruited for the remote viewing program. Before we do that, I'm curious about your bracelet.

Does that have any meaning? This bracelet? Yeah, that bracelet. It's actually, it's kind of somewhat similar to one that I gave my wife. It's made by a congressman who was also a Native American. Really? Yeah. In New Mexico, and I happened to be working at the Los Alamos lab at the time. You worked at Los Alamos? Well, I worked there in terms of being studied. Okay. They did a study for two years of hopefully me doing remote viewing, but it was in a mu metal shielded room on a bean bag where they suck the air out of the bag, it matches your body, you lay on your face and they had a large can

filled with liquid nitrogen and seven squids, what they call squids, subquantum interface devices and it was pressed with a robotic arm to the back of the skull and it measured each individual axion firing in the brain whenever we did something. And what they learned is you can't capture remote viewing that way. Second thing they learned is not all thought happens here. It also happens behind your elbow, behind your knee. Your entire nervous system is filled with actual brain cells. So there's thought and action that takes place throughout your nervous system. We actually knew that eight years before it became public knowledge through somebody else's

study. We just got that by accident. Wow. That's public knowledge, huh? Yeah. The cool thing was that when we leased the lab to do the study, the people that actually worked in that lab before we leased it from them were told by letter from their boss, stay away from these people, they're nuts. They snuck in anyway and observe what we were doing and read some of what we were writing and that sort of thing. And when our two-year study was over, we got an application

for employment from every single person working in that lab. Wow. Because we were doing something more interesting than they were doing in the government lab. Wow. So. That is, man, I can't bring anything up without, without, you having something to, it's crazy. It is, it's crazy.

I love this interview. We had people with actual, that were Nobel laureates actually made statements to us where they said, even if you proved it beyond the shadow of it out, we'd still deny it. Nobel laureates saying that. Yeah. I mean, and unfortunately, having done a demonstration in front of the Senate subcommittee for intelligence, way back, I had somebody in that committee tell me

in the middle of a demonstration of remote viewing stood up and said, sir, you're doing the work of the devil and you will burn in the fires of hell. And he ran out of the room. Wow. That's one of our senior senators actually said that made all the hairs now back in my neck. Yeah. And then when we broke for coffee, had another senior senator give me a big hug, wiping tears

out of his eyes and he said, you're doing God's work, son, keep it up. And all the hair stood up on my neck again. It's like, I can't tell you who I'm working for. It's like, I can't tell you who I'm working for. It's like insanity. People go right to that. They go right to theology, religion. In many cases, if I don't blame what I do as a God, as a gift from God, then I'm the devil himself. But if I said it's God's gift, my son, you

are perfect. That kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, we want you on our bandwagon or we don't want you? Yeah, you know, it's, uh, ever since I've been diving into these kind of subjects. Everybody once told me how to think, you know, about them and I guess just like anything else, right? Just like politics.

If I don't agree with you, let me guess. Now we're going to go into 30 minutes of you trying to convince me why I should think exactly like you. You know? Yeah. And let's just save it because I'm not going to. Yeah, not going to happen. But, but anyways.

Grilleflame or gondola, which one is it? At the beginning it was called gondola wish. Gondola wish. That's when it was an idea in the eye of somebody. Okay. Which was basically a major keener and skip outwater or frederick outwater who was a first lieutenant at the time. Okay. And they both work for the nine oh second military intelligence group, which is a counterintelligence operation. They proposed a project in which it would be pursued. So, how did you get recruited?

Well, I worked for a general Roy at the time. He was a commander of intelligence and security command for the whole army the intelligence business and As I said, I was running my M. O. S. With a GS 14 and an office directly over his head And he called me in one morning Or had me come down and talk to him. I should say and he wanted me to go out to Fort Mead and look at what they were proposing and come back and give him a briefing. He said, I don't know anything about this subject matter. And I said, what exactly is it? And he said, you'll have to find that out. He didn't want to turn me one way or the other. He wanted me to go check it out

so I spent the whole day there with Lieutenant Atwater and another major at the time his name was Watt Watt and So I sat there the whole day looking I was sitting in front of a table covered with nothing but a pile of stuff on psychic function. Some of it was stuff that we had perloined from different communist countries.

Some of it was stuff out of Inquirer Magazine. I mean, it's everything from the trash to the ash. I mean, everything. And I spent about four and a half hours sitting there just picking through it. And I saw maybe two documents in the whole pile that meant anything to me. The rest was garbage, just complete garbage. What people wanted you to think, what they wanted you to believe, stories written by people

who didn't ask the right questions, you know, that kind of crap. What was your opinion of the psychic, remote viewing topic before you were recruited? Before I was recruited, didn't have an opinion. Did you, did you, was there any discussion? I had some very interesting events in my life, particularly in Vietnam, that were very meaningful to me was at a fire base and I can't remember the name of it now, but it was in the Atlanta helicopters there and it was a support fire base and I was there TDY. I was there maybe a month running my

the NPRD ones on the Jeep and I was asked to fulfill a role there if they came under attack. I was a senior staff sergeant so they said what we would like you to do is if we come under attack since you're only here TDI We want you to go to the bunker with the radios and help to coordinate whatever fire support we get. I Said fine not a problem So we came under attack one night. So I took off for the bunker And just as I got to the bunker I started down the steps into the bunker and I took maybe the first two steps. I was in a hurry and somebody yelled freeze really loud. So I stopped and I looked to see you yelled it and the whole bunker dissolved in front

of me just collapsed. It was hit with I don't know how many different RPGs or something. Maybe a Zappercut inside. I have no idea, but it just collapsed right in front of me. So it would have been inside that bunker when it collapsed, but it wasn't. That's one example. That's the second time I've heard that. This is the second time I've heard that.

Yeah. Huh, this is the second time I've heard that yeah, it was a Voice out of somewhere in it stopped me dead in my tracks Otherwise I would have been in there Wow The second time In our in our base camp which is on a hill, quite a distance from the fourth division, armored division, and Pleiku City runway and that sort of stuff. Special forces camp, we're on like half a hill with the combat engineers. They were on the backside of our hill.

We were on the other side and our side faced this just vast openness of just nothing but scrub as far as you could see and then it went into the foothills and into the dry border area and uh one of the things that we that we we had there was, like I said, we were living in holes in the ground, which was perfectly all right with us. I mean, I was comfortable. Unless you took a direct hit, and even then it would maybe go into the mud and you'd get an upward detonation or something, nobody get hurt. Get your brains rattled maybe, but that was it. Well, the engineers came in and built us these big concrete pads with these wooden buildings and put 10 roofs on them. And our commander at the time said, I want everybody to move in there because we're going

to bulldoze the halls. And I refused. I said, the guys in my tent are not moving and neither am I. Those are not properly fortified, they're not protected against attack by mortar until you got a layer of sandbags on the roof, I'm not moving anybody in there and I couldn't convince them why it would be dangerous because we had four of those buildings in a row and everybody started moving in and we refused. So we're out on a mission when we came back our hole was

bulldozed over and we were moved in there. So I told my guys okay until they do something to revet the outside of the building and put something over the roof. I want you to sandbag your cots because at least then you'll have something you can lay up against because if something comes through the roof it's going to predetinate above the ground we're going to get spaulding off the concrete floor. It's going to just chew this place up. They ordered me to get all the sandbags out and I refused to do that. When I was there, the commander came in, gave everybody direct order, they started taking the sandbags out. I came back that evening. I was really hot. I argued with him. Came back in, I was really hot. I went argued with him came back in

crashed fell asleep middle of my night that night We got hit with mortar. We got bracketed by two heavy mortars, and I mean they tore us up We got all kinds of predetinations lots of wounded The guy in the pride I had a private room on the end of the barracks The guy in the pri- I had a private room on the end of the barracks. So when I heard him going off, I just rolled off the cot and pulled everything in the room that wasn't attached to anything down on top of me. Everything I owned had holes in it.

The guy in the room next to me never got out of his bed. He was hitting the head. It just feathers everywhere from his pillow. So I was inside having the guys re-sandbag there, the surviving guys re-sandbagging their cots when the the boss came in again and I just pulled my 45 out, jacked around and laid it on the sandbags and kept stacking the sandbags. And the first sergeant said, oh, maybe you ought to go outside with me, sir. We'll have a discussion about it out here. And he left and I never saw him again.

That was the second time. It was like I knew stuff was going to happen. But the thing that got to me It was like I knew stuff was going to happen. But the thing that got to me was this kid. I can't even remember the state he was from, but he had a real Southern accent like from Kentucky or might have been Tennessee even. I can't remember. But he, all he wanted to do was make me happy. Cause I happened to be the, the, uh, sart the sardin of the guard one night and so I was in charge of all the bunkers and stuff so the following morning

when the bunker guys had all been relieved I told this kid I said go out and collect all the loose hang grenades collect them up put them in the back of the three quarter ton truck. I didn't tell him specifically how to do that, but I told him to do that. So he said, yes sir, yes sir, right away. And he ran out to do it. And I was talking to someone else, maybe 80 feet away from the bonkers. And the three quarter was parked over near the side.

And he was waving at me and he was walking to the three quarter ton truck carrying a gunny sack. And I had this picture in my mind of the open weaving in the gunny sack, catching a pin, you know, just getting hung up on a pin and started yelling at him and doing this.

He started waving back and he walked over three-quarter and turned the gunny sack upside down and shook the grenades into the back three-quarter dump truck. And it was a big, big flash and he was gone And I I just saw that whole thing happening like 60 seconds before it did wow so I Started paying attention to stuff If I started if I'd be sitting out on the ground lean against the I don't know,

the sandbag wall or something, reading a book, and I get this funny feeling, I would get up and walk into the bunker, and we get hit with a mortar, couple mortar rounds, things like that. And guys started noticing that. So if I got up and went somewhere, they'd all get up and go with me You know like I went in a bunker the bunker get really crowded with guys coming in

things like that And so they said well You seem to know when something's gonna happen. So you had articulated this. Yeah, I Was thinking that stuff anyway. So when I went and read this data, this was many years later, I'm doing it for the general. And I went back and told him that I thought there was a threat buried in it. I was serious because there were a couple of documents in there. Was this the table with all the stuff? Yeah, the table with a mound of stuff on it.

There was only maybe two or three documents in there that I read that I took very seriously because they were, one was from Russia, two were from China I think, and one of them may have been Czech or something, but it was research that they had been doing on combat vets where they would know things and that resonated with me and I thought, well, if they're researching that for possible use as a collection tool or a casually preventive tool of some kind, that's important. And I thought if they're doing it, we should be doing it too, or it would be a threat against us at some point in the future. And I just told the general that. So next thing I knew, he's sending me out to SRI to evaluate it, because he wanted

to know more about it. And of course, when I went out there, I had a result where I had, they said, oh, I said, so what is this remote viewing stuff? And they said, oh, well, rather than try to explain it, why don't you just do a few and then you'll understand what it's all about. So I did six of those in a two or three day period. Were you skeptical at all? Yeah, very.

I didn't understand it. In fact the first one I did I went into this windowless room on the third four of the radio physics lab with Russell Targ who worked there. And we sat there for 30 minutes just talking. And I said, so what it, okay, what is this stuff? And he said, well, just give it another few minutes. And after some time, he said, okay, uh, it's nine o'clock and how put off is gone somewhere. Well, we it's randomly chosen. We don't know where he is. I don't know where he is. Nobody knows. Describe what he's seeing and where he's standing. And I

said, okay, how do I do that? It says what pops in your head and so I described a, I described a place with thousands of crystals. So crystals everywhere, they're all beautiful crystals. Sunlight goes from, you know, splays out in different colors. And there's like a building there, but it's like a pillow. It's built like this, like a big pillow. And he said, are there any distinctive colors? And I said, yeah, one, everything's white. Everything white. Well, almost everything.

And he says, well, what's the other color? And I said, well, that pillow is a different color. It has red. No. No, it's white. No, no, it's red. And he said, OK, Joe, you gotta settle on one or the other, red or white. Okay, it's white with kind of a red in it. No, no, it's red with kind of a white in it.

And he started getting angry with me. He said, just tell me what color the building is. I said, okay, okay, here it comes. You ready? Red hyphen white slash white hyphen red. That's the color. End quotes. And he said, that's not a color. I said, it is now. Learn to live with it. That's what I actually said. And so we get a call, how Ploov tells him where we are, where he is. So we get in the staff car and we ride out there,

Russell Targon and I, with a driver because he's legally blind. And I would ride with him if he was driving. So we get there. And what it is, it's right on the bay and it's a place where they process seawater for salt. So mounds of salt everywhere. And salts of white crystal, crystalline form.

And in the center of all this white, mounds of white crystal, crystalline form. And in the center of all this white, mounds of white salt, is a quonset hut. And it's enameled white, but rust is bleeding through all over it, from this heavy salt content. And Russell's standing there at the entry where we walked in, he's just standing there and he's staring and he said, that's about a perfect color that you gave it. So that's one of the first place matches I got later when it was

independently judged. Are you doing this? I mean, how does it, how does it, what is the experience like? They tell you how put off standing in a spot. We don't know where he is. Describe it. You go, how they say, just tell us what pops in your head. Yeah. I mean, are your eyes open?

That's what's popping in my head. Your eyes open? Are we, are we right now? Like we're talking right now. And it's this image just. It's just popping in my head. It's like. How clear is it?

Clear as a bell. Like you're there. Like you're there. Only you don't know exactly what it is. Millions of crystals in piles everywhere. So the tiny little salt crystals are looking big to me, but there's big mounds of them. Okay, you understand? It sort of distorted a little bit. But what you could say about it is absolutely clear. Mounds of crystals everywhere. Well, that's what salt is.

And the color was bleeding, literally, the red was just this wavery kind of stuff bleeding through the enamel from years of sitting next to the salt, I guess. Can you see the visualizations from different angles? Yeah. Can you walk through them? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Can you touch them?

Yeah. And you can feel them? Mm-hmm. And I think where the mistakes made is in the term remote viewing. That implies seeing it. You kind of aren't seeing it, but you are. What it is, it's a compilation of all of your senses.

Most people go into remote viewing thinking, I'm going to see something, and so they're totally and completely dependent on their eyes. It's not just your vision, it's your smell, it's your taste, it's your feeling, it's your emotions about it, it's everything that you could possibly sense if you were standing in the middle of it. Everything you could possibly say about it, it's right, but it says though you don't know, you've never seen it before in your whole life. You understand what I'm saying? It's kind of masked that way. So where they make a mistake is they make a mistake and

Naming things or having the need to say what it is No, nobody wants to know what it is They want descriptors of it that come to you based on your senses all of your senses so If I'm doing a target and let's say the, I'm just gonna throw out a hypothetical. Let's say it's a CIA guy and he wants to know what the spy, the spy was caught in South Africa and turned over to our country and he's a Russian spy. And when he was caught, they haven't been able to determine how he encrypted his messages going back to Russia.

That's more important than catching the spy. Okay? So, they need to know that. So they come to us with that task. Tell us how he encrypted his messages. So, they might write that out. How did the spy from South Africa encrypt his messages? They put it in a double wrap, they'll pick envelope and they put A on it.

And I go in a room and they throw the envelope with A on it on a table and they say, tell us about A. And I just sit there and think about it and what pops in my head. I tell them. But you don't know what's in the envelope? I have no idea what's in the envelope. It doesn't matter. What happened over time as an example, initially they knew they couldn't send somebody to a place in Russia that they want to know about.

So how do we get that? Well we could use GPS locations. So they would write out the GPS site and they would give that to the viewer and I was nailing GPS sites like crazy So they said obviously Joe has an idetic memory and he's memorized important GPS locations in Russia No, that's not possible. There's too many What is actually happening is What is actually happening is I'm actually getting to the target without the GPS site. So to prove it, we said, okay, if you believe that, take the GPS locations, put them in a double wrapped opaque envelope you can't see through.

Don't say anything, just throw the blank envelope on the table. And guess what? You still get the same target. Okay. So, inevitably, somebody carrying a target from the CIA would show up at our office and they go, oh jeez, I left the envelope on my desk at Langley. And we'd say, okay, write down the target in the envelope I left on my desk at Langley. And guess what? It still works. So it's something else gets you to the target. What we think it is, and I wrote a paper on this 35 years ago. It's intention, attention to detail about the target and expectation for outcome. And if you stop and think about it,

if you don't have those three things, your job, no matter what it is in the world, is not gonna work. Those are the three things you absolutely have to add. Can you say those again, please? Intention, attention to detail, and expectation for outcome. If you have solidified those three things, talked about them with the group of people you work with,

I guarantee you success in the world, it no matter what it is you're doing. Doesn't matter. That's how humans operate. It's how we think. It's where we go with our head. It's what gets us there.

It's in everything we do and nobody wants to believe it. And when I wrote the paper 35 years ago, they said, nobody cares about this paper. Today they're saying, oh, maybe it's one of the top three most seminal papers ever written. Why? Because every manufacturing company in the world, if they don't pay attention to that, they don't succeed. Every company in the world where if they don't pay attention to that, they don't succeed. Every company in the world where they do original thought or creation or construction or whatever, they don't follow those rules, they're gonna succeed. There's nothing that we do as human beings

that will ever happen if we don't pay attention to those three things. That's a simple recipe for how psychic functioning works. It's the same thing. It's where original thought is generated. It comes out of our mind is something we've never done before. It's new. It's creative. It's no one's ever thought of this. How could this possibly have not been thought of? Same place. It comes out of the same place. So why wouldn't original thought about a target

somewhere not happen at the same time with the same strength as it does with a psychic functioning person as someone going over tons of information trying to analyze their way through to an answer. It's the same thing. No difference. Did you know that you were the first one to be implemented into the program? Yes. I knew I was the first one that was recruited. Had they articulated why, you?

No, they just, what they did is they said, they let it happen by course. What they did is they went out and they looked at, they went out to all the commanders that they knew and they said give us the names of all the people that you have working for you that seem to always come up with the answer, seem to always be the right person in the right, seem to be the most creative people in answering the problems you have to face no matter what it is. And they came back with, I don't know, 1,300 people or 1,500 people in Inscown. Then out of that,

they said, okay, well, we want to review the top 20% of those people. So they went through and they weeded out a whole bunch of stuff and they came to maybe 130 people. They started interviewing everybody and they reached a point where they had maybe 30 people were coming out on top. I happened to be in the 30 people. I think that was more to do with General Roy is sending me there and saying I think this guy would be a good recruit. By virtue of the fact that that he had brought me back, made me want, put me in charge of my M.O.S. He did that because of my history, I think, because of the field reports, everything that anybody had ever heard of me about. I spent more time overseas.

I did six and a half hardship tours. Nobody does that unless they love what they're doing. And so he sent my name in. So I came out in the top 30 and then Russell Targon, how put off came from SRI to Fort Meade and we were personally interviewed by each one of them. How put off and Russell had decided that since I had the six results I had, and from my interview, that I absolutely had to be in the three people they were going to choose. They were only choose three people, because that's what they said their funding could

cover. When they did the interviews, they kept coming up with six names. Well, the government said, no, we're not going to give you any more money than we're giving you. So they said, okay, we'll do it for six people. So they collected the six of us and we all went to Asari and and learned more about remote viewing and Katie bore the door. That's what happened. We started getting tasked. Originally it was supposed to be a three-year project. First year recruitment and took about a year to do that. Second year was training and training consisted of doing it over and over and over and over and over because nobody knew how to train this stuff. It was practice. See who got better, who didn't, that sort of thing.

All six of us got better at it. I had 24 straight failures. Really? Yeah. My ego got in the way and I knew that and it just took a while for me to beat it back. It's how did you control it? It just took a while for me to beat it back. How did you control it? You don't. You give it another job to do. I give my math problems, I give it thoughts that I got to work through while I'm doing

a remote feeling. I don't let the ego play. What happens with many people is they have a resounding success the first time. And the reason why is the ego goes, I don't know what's going on here. I've never been exposed to this before. So I'm going to step out of this and see what happens. I am not going to fail. Ego steps out, resounding success.

The ego jumps back in and goes, okay, I know what's going on now, I'm in charge. Failure, failure, failure, failure. Because the ego thinks it knows what it's doing and it doesn't have a clue. So you gotta keep the ego busy. And you can side step it, you know, push it over here and have it do something else that egos are good at while you're doing the viewing.

And that's kind of a split mental function that I do. I still do it. I've done this for better than 44 years now and I still fight battles with my ego. You can't have an ego and do removal feeling. What is the ego? Ego? I think that's a protective part of us that looks out for our benefit. Where does it come from?

Where does it come from? Competitive side of man. It's our need to be on top, be the best, do the one thing that we do the best or whatever you want to call it, be the producer, be the guy who generates the most, however you want to look at it, it's got to be on top. It's counterproductive in remote viewing. It's counterproductive in a lot of things, Ashley. What I learned by being an intelligence for as many years is by the time I got to remote viewing I had already learned that

Nobody knows who I am When I do something and it works out really really well It's because nobody knows who I am and never will know who I am That doesn't matter what What matters is success in the job. In other words, if part of your function is to keep whole units from being decimated in combat, that's what you do and you don't take credit for it. You don't want credit for it because it will erode your job quality It erodes the very function that you're out there trying to to do I

I I always I know I never I don't think Two times in my life that I get a direct order to do anything as an intelligence guy. I saw the job, I saw the problem and I did it. I didn't ask for permission, I didn't have somebody tell me to go do it. I just went and did it. I've always done that because that's how I was brought up

in the intelligence business. I had good trainers. I had people with me who said, no, no, no, you don't get credit for this. There are no awards here. Your job, that's your job keeping these guys alive by giving them the information they need, doing what they need to stay alive in the field.

It's like somebody said to me once, oh, well, you did a lot of recon. So you really know what combat's all about. I said, no, no, no, you recon is you don't get discovered. Nobody knows you've been there. You're good at hiding. There's no combat there. Yeah. You stay alive for other people.

You know, I've been in places where I watched the NBA going by me to the battle. I was down in the corner going, and you got another root coming over the hill. You know? That's stupid. It, it, at what point did it become the Stargate program? Well, let's see. It was a condolish, then it was grill flame. It was grill flame until we got outed by President Carter.

President Carter stood up in front of a bunch of news people and said, you know that, uh, two you one 22 bear bomber we've been looking for for that disappeared two years ago. Everybody's been looking for it, but we found it. And we've turned it over entirely to the Russians. And one of the reporters said, how did you find it? And he said, we used our psychics and he was holding in his arm, a green folder with a red stripe and it said, grill flame on it.

Cats out of the bag. Hour later, everything changed and we became Cedar Lane. So we're Cedar Lane for a while until somebody else, I think it was, we had a congressman by the name of Rose. Everybody called him Rubber Lips Rose because you couldn't tell him anything

that wasn't on the news an hour later. So he started talking about us. tell him anything that wasn't on the news an hour later. So he started talking about us. Senator Lane disappeared and Sunstreak appeared and so on and so forth. We went through like six or seven name changes and somewhere in there, INSCOM divorced itself of the program because A, it couldn't fund it, B, it had been supplying the bodies out of MOS. I was 999 the whole time I was in the unit. So it was turned over from INSCOM, it was turned over to the Defense Intelligence Agency, DIA. DIA took it over because they provided the huge amount of money to keep

it going. They were also wanting to take charge of it because by that point, this is right when I accident by the way, by that point it was not being managed very well. So, DIA took it over. It became a bigger headache in management for them. So there were a lot of problems with it. So in the end it was the CIA that was told, Congress told the CIA, we want you to take it over completely, turn it totally black and bury it. Make it go away from the public eye. This just got to be so secret no one ever knows about it or asked any questions about it. And the CIA said no, we're not going to do that. And the reason that we're not going to do that is because you, Congress, has just

raked us over the coals for two years over the project MKUltra where we use psychedelics for interrogation purposes. Why? Because they gave it to one of their own people at a party and the guy thought he could fly and went out a nine-story building in downtown DC and splattered all over the sidewalk to the disgruntlement of the CIA, his family, and a number of other people. So they just lambasted the CIA for that. So the CIA said, no, it's not going to happen. Congress went back to the CIA and said, you got this all wrong. You don't tell us what you will or won't do. We tell you what you will do.

And so the CIA said, okay, we'll take over managerial authority of it, but only after a study is done on its condition. So they had two people come in to do the study, a woman by the name of Jessica Utz, who was the number one statistical analyst in the world almost. Okay, never mind America, probably the top five anyway from the world. And a guy named, I can't remember right now, sorry, he was a professor who had been one of our worst detractors the whole time. He said, this isn't real, it's a lie, it's all BS. And it's not real and the government's being taken down a false trail.

He was their counter to her. So they both did a study of material that the CIA gave them to study, which was one year of hand selected material that we supposedly reacted to. And it was all the, if you had to pick the top seven worst possible results, that's what they gave them to study. And yet the statistical analyst came up with the idea that based on that material alone, it was better than the reason you take an aspirin every day to prevent heart attack. For a lot of reasons. The biggest reason is the people who have studied it aren't wedded to it. The people who cause you to take an aspirin every day

to prevent heart attack are all aspirin producers. So she gave these very brilliant arguments, still found statistical reasons why it was supported, even on the minimal amount of material given to them to review. The professor on the other hand, same old story, held his view that it was a waste of time, never should have happened in the first place, blah blah blah, and he can give any reasons for it at all. So what they did is the CIA dumped her report, kept his, presented it to the Congress and said, this is why we're not accepting it.

And Congress said, well, then shut it down. So they did. Primary reason I will tell you is nobody wants to be caught dead standing next to a psychic. It's political dynamite. You're toast. You get caught standing next to a psychic. You're toast. And the example they give, President Reagan's wife talking to an astrologer, at the same time, at the same time, we're working for him. They're crucifying his wife and we're advising 15 of the 17 largest intelligence agencies in America.

I mean, that's nuts. Now, I have to say we did over 1200 remote viewings in support of the CIA and they are the ones that kept coming back for more for like 15 years and they said it didn't work. Now if you had a restaurant, I'm going to give you the example that Dr. May gets. If you had a restaurant, I'm going to give you the example that Dr. Magus, if you had a restaurant and you invited the top 15 food critics to your restaurant the day you opened it and 13 of them came back the next day and 15

came back the day after and 12 came back the day after, and 12 came back the day after that, and so on and so forth for the next 15 years. Would you say it was a pretty good restaurant? Yes, I would. Damn right you would. Nobody will stand next to a psychic though, so, what can I say? And yet we still had almost every agency we supported say and review and talk about everything we did to support them

And it's all available now We published the science we pre-pregnant we Laboratory for fundamental research published the science remote viewing in four volumes, 911 pages of volume, double columns both sides, tissue thin paper, 1.4 million words. There is more science backing up remote viewing than any other subject in history. Wow. Well, anybody read those? No.

All they want to do is say, I wouldn't believe it if he told me it was real. And yet, where are we buried our head in the sand? Do you think terrorists can't do this? No, they can. And in fact, we have proof or there is extent proof I know of. I can't talk about it. But I will tell you, there's extent proof that there are terrorist organizations teaching people trying to use it. And there are foreign countries using it to our detriment. Our allies have tried to use it and have failed because

no one sends them to the people who have the science backing it up, who know how to use it, who've made all the mistakes, opened all the doors, all the windows to getting it where it operates proficiently. They don't ask those people. So... At what point did you... We'll get into that in a little bit. What is one of the first... Was the Skylab one of the first big predictions you made? I actually made that prediction, I think it was about six months prior to the Skylab coming out of orbit.

And I did it before I ever knew the existence of the program that they were trying to put together. I did it because someone said, they don't know where this thing's going to come down. And I said, oh, they should in all probability. This is where it's going to hit. And I said it was the left central area of Australia's desert. And then it would strike at a certain point and there'd be a debris field that would go out for so many thousands of kilometers.

Rewinding real quick, Skylab was at the first? First big lab that we had in orbit and it had a lot of parts of it that we knew would not self-destruct when they came back in through the atmosphere. And we were concerned that some of the larger parts of it, like the, I think, the atomic power plant, stuff like that, was going to crash in a big city somewhere, maybe kill thousands of people. Nobody knew. The scientists couldn't predict it. It's decaying orbit was changing dramatically every so many hours because of its rotation in orbit. So they knew the decay rate and everything, but they just didn't know where it was going to re-enter. And where it re-entered in its

attitude on re-entry would determine its crash point. So I think one of the large sections landed in the Indian Ocean thousands of miles from where the predominant part of it hit, which is in the deserts of Australia. And the only thing I had long, I had said the hours and days, I missed it by a certain number of days, like a handful of days or hours or something. And I had it reversed because I had it going around the world this way and it was going around the world this way or something like that. So my debris field was where it would actually impact and where I had it impacting was the debris field Well from what I understand you're only about 60 miles off and it was a one in six million

646,000 chance. I don't know where that comes from, but I can tell you I was about 60 miles off That's not bad. That is. But that's not the only play. I mean, it was a big chunk of it came down in the Indian Ocean. So there were other places where chunks of it came down, but the predominant part of it came down in the deserts of Australia, which is perfect. I mean, didn't hurt anybody, other than a lot of rabbits, maybe, or kangaroos or something.

I don't know. That's so... And then there is the submarine incident. Yeah. Can you go into detail about that, please? Yeah. The, the, the target was, um, at the time, my understanding was it was the largest building that existed in Russia, north of the, or in the world actually, north of the Arctic Circle.

It was a coal, what they call a coal harbor, frigate harbor. They always had these big icebreakers sitting outside the harbor. They were building something in this building but it was not connected to the harbor so they didn't believe it was a ship or anything but there was a lot of material going in off of railroad cars and stuff. There's a lot of heavy guards around it. They couldn't hire somebody to sneak a camera and take one picture. They just didn't know what was happening

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Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners. Go to helixsleep.com slash SRS and use the code helixpartner20. This is their best offer yet and it's not going to last long. With Helix, Better Sleep starts now. So, I and one of my best friends, he's dead now. He died during the project. His name was Harley Trent. Harley Trent and I worked a target. And we both pretty much said the same thing, really,

that it was a very, very large summary, huge summary. I remember somebody asked me in one of my sessions, how big is it? You keep saying big, huge. Well, how big is it? I said, well, it's about 33 feet or 33, 30 feet shy of the length of a Soviet aircraft carrier and probably 75 75 70 feet wide Really huge. I said it's like two big half submarines being stuck together this way and There was a number of other things we said about I can't remember all the details now, but

All right, most important point Oh, I most important point was up until that point, all the Soviet submarines that carried ICBMs carried them straight up and down. So they had to stop the launch. That was like an 18 minute window where they were really vulnerable. This went away as a vulnerability because this new submarine I said had slanted tubes so he could launch on the move and there was some other things I can't remember now but anyway Hartley and I pretty much agreed on a lot of that and but I have to tell you, he was targeted separately from me

and I was targeted separately from him and we never spoke to each other about it. Cause we were under orders during remote viewing to never discuss what we were targeting in any way, shape or form. Cause they didn't want tainted information going across viewers. So I didn't know he was reporting what I was reporting in vice versa.

We sent the report to the National Security Council because that's where it was being targeted. The National Security Council had been targeting it for two years, couldn't get any information on the building at all. So we sent a report in, it was carried in by Admiral by the name of Jake Stewart. I think his first name was Jake. I might be wrong there but I do know his last name was Stuart because I had known him for some time and he carried the report to the National Security Council but then he brought it right back and he said they won't accept it. They said this is just total fantasy. I remember talking to him about it and I asked him why did they say it was fantasy and he

said because they're already centered on something like a troop carrier or something being manufactured there and that it's not possible because it's not connected to the harbor in any way. I said, well, telling the fantasies is going to be launched in 112 days. It actually made me angry that they just resented the information. So I said, take it back. Tell them the fantasy will be launched in 112 days. So Admiral Stewart, I guess, went it back, tell them the Phantasy would be launched in 112 days. So Admiral Stewart, I guess, went by the NRO. I don't know if that's true or not, but somebody went by the NRO and had them order up a couple

overheads of the harbor 114 days out. I don't know what happened at the National Security Council, but I do know they didn't care about our report So they probably threw it on a shelf and ignored it 114 days later when they took pictures of the harbor a Channel was cut to the sea The Typhoon class submarine TK 089 first ever built prototype Was parked in the harbor tied up to a Soviet aircraft carrier. I think they were using the aircraft carrier to blind anybody sailing by the port

so they couldn't see or anybody who was looking into the harbor. And it was about 30 to 33 feet shy the length of a Soviet aircraft carrier. It was a monster Now what I found out later and nobody knew as they they build eight more of them and no one ever saw or heard of them so Where were they built and how did they launch those that nobody know about I when I was in Russia with Ed May and After perestroika and the wall came down and all of that I uh, I met the uh

Chief of the Red Army or whatever they call him And he had me he wanted me to sign a book that I written where I talked about the submarine because when they declassified everything, CIA declassified everything, I talked about it in one of my books and he thought it was disinformation for six years. That's what he told me and I asked him why and he said because it was in your book and I didn't know about any submarine. And so I said then why do you want me to sign the book and he said because I just found out it was real. So I said so I don't get this how do you know it wasn't this information and he said he did this he looked around and he leaned forward and he said I Know because our spy and your DIA told me it was real

I went oh geez what do I do now? I Said when you give me the initials he said oh no no no I couldn't do that They'd bury me under the front steps of the FSB. So I said, it's okay. I'll wait you go to sleep tonight. Get it from your head. That's all I could think of the same.

And he ran out of the room. They came back in and grabbed his book, which I had signed. Took off with him. And then the general that I was, the Ed and I were talking to, said, you got to stop scaring my generals, Joe. You just got to stop doing that. I said, okay, I won't do it anymore.

Wow. So when you're tasked to do these things, how do they approach? Well, they just tell me, Joe, you're up and I go in a room which they're taping and monitoring everything and I sit down with a monitor and the monitor throws an envelope on the table, either he or she, nor I know what's in the envelope. In fact, nobody knows what's in the envelope except the tasker who talked to one person, which is my boss in the remote viewing unit. And he puts the envelope together. And so nobody knows.

And that way you don't get leading questions. It goes wherever it goes. Now what the monitor is there for is the monitor brings to bear left brain actions like questions that might come up. In the interaction between the monitor and I might say something like, well, it's this submarine and it's really huge. And he might say, how huge is it? You know, and I'll say, oh, 33 feet shy,

the length of a Soviet aircraft carrier. Well, that elicits more information than I might be giving at the time. So you get way more information out of the interaction between two people. One who's being left-brained and trying to stay in the world of reality, if you will, and the remote viewer who's in their own world,

trying to figure out what the sensations are and everything's going on in their head, telling them what to say. So what we found over the years was there were many occasions when that monitor would ask exactly the right question to elicit the response, then answered the whole problem. So they're both being psychic, just that one thinks they're not and one thinks they are. You understand? So people when they interact don't realize it, but some are being psychic and some are not.

It's a human trait. It's a human condition. Psychic functioning is normal with human beings. It's the norm. The difficulty is, I think, comes out of the fact that it's an ancient capability. It's a survival mechanism that has existed since the beginning of human. And as at the very beginning, we didn't have a language of detail where we could interact together and speak in great detail with one another

about some subject. Or when we were going into a valley to hunt we maybe went to our guide, our witch doctor, our leader, whoever, who was probably the most psychic person in the entire group who said hunt on the south section of that valley and we would hunt there and find plenty of game where if we hunted anywhere else there wouldn't be or if we said okay we're going back to our old hunting grounds there's three caves there which one shall we meet at meet on the western one. Don't meet on the other two because cave bears are

living there. If they come back and find us there, they will kill us all. So it's a survival mechanism. People understood what their minds were telling them about their environment, their environment and everything. They had no other way of judging it. So it makes a lot of sense. Where did we become this inefficient? Yeah, where was the wrong turn? Where did we steer off of that? Because with that, there's no need for language. we become this inefficient. Yeah, where was the wrong draw?

Where did we steer off of that? Because with that, there's no need for language. Right, there's no need for language. Why? Because we lived in very small family units. The biggest tribe of people was probably nine, ten people, all birthed out of the same families. And so we were all intimately related to one another, fighting for survival. And so we could actually read one another's minds or the very thoughts that others were

thinking in our group. Why did that go away? Well, because small groups started banding together because there is strength in numbers and when you have strength in numbers it trumps small units. Strength in numbers, however, opens a flaw in the reading of minds. Because now you're reading the mind of this guy who's got this woman as his primary mate and they're not part of your original group and you're now reading her mind and he's reading your mind and you're the one who winds up with a spear in the back. So that doesn't work. So I think over time, not right away, but over thousands of years, what happened is we found

ways for our development to change that capability from a yes, every day kind of capability to one that was less invasive. So probably somewhere in the forebrain or the close-up or something, we started building a filter there that would prevent it, prevent this current from happening. And it's not a perfect filter. Stuff still gets through, but it's the outrageous screaming survival type stuff that gets

through there now. You only see it, you see it in combat. You see it with policemen in dangerous situations. You see it with surgeons in surgical suites where something happens and they don't have time to pick the phone up, talk to their buddy, go and look at a medical dictionary or find out something special that's going to help them save a life. No, it's like right then, right there, you got two seconds to make a decision. They go here for it, they get it from everybody in the room and they act on it.

I think that's the way things work now. It's an overriding need. It's interesting you said this because I, I mean, me and you just met this morning at breakfast and I had a similar conversation. I can't remember who it was, but they were saying you already, it was another, it was another operator and we were having a discussion. I can't remember what it was about, but he was talking about, we'd got on this subject,

and he said that he was saying, everybody, he believes everybody has this type of ability. And he related it back to, he was like, remember, you know, remember in Iraq, Afghanistan, when we were clearing rooms together. And he's like, and you immediately, you can pick up on the energy of who's in that room. And when I think of it like that, you know, I just, I mean, everything happens so fast. You know, that But that white shoulder tap by somebody behind you would slow you down maybe just enough that you don't round that next corner so fast. You might glance back and you'll go

like this or something. You just feel each other. You're also, but we would also, I mean, we would call it reading the room. And so it would be, you know, women, children, men, bad guys, good guys, and that is what you go off of. You go off your gut instinct, intuition, whatever you want to call it. The only time I saw that was at the Tetaphats of when we had the clear Placo city. I saw some of that done where it's got

wrenching to kick doors in. You know, when you're going through a town or a city or a village or something, it's really, there's times when you don't have any problem kicking a door in and then ascertaining who's inside. There's other times when you just don't want to kick that door, you know? It's kind of like, no, I'd rather like flash bang it first, then kick the door in. It's an intuitive knowing that I need to do this. So, does everybody have, can everybody access this or is it a gift that only certain people? No, I think everybody can access it when they're in a situation where they're at great

risk. I think that's when it comes to bear because they're at great risk. I think that's when it comes to bear because they're open to it. Could everybody learn it? I think to a certain degree. And in fact, there's some evidence of that. There's a guy named Han. He wrote a book on this, by the way. I can't remember his first name. His last name I remember being Hand, just like your hand.

And he taught a Ptunam Marines, before they went to Vietnam, taught a team of Marines, Ptunam actually, how to sense their way through inspection of a hut or a village hut. He taught them in a mock village on booby traps what to look for, how to smell them out, how to feel about a room, how to suss it out, that sort of thing. And a lot of it had to do with how they felt when they just put their hand on something. And they then followed that platoon of Marines in Vietnam for 14 months. And their incidents from wounds from booby traps, wounds and death from booby traps was 45% lower than any

other protein and the Marines. Wow. Did they continue that training? No. We found that if you wire these two, the index finger and this finger just have a wire coming off these two fingers. Going to a computer and a person's wearing a pair of headsets, let's say, and they're listening to white noise, you know, just that hiss, and they're comfortably listening to the white noise. listening to the white noise and suddenly there's a bang in that white noise. It startles them. What happens on the recording for those two wires is what you get is a huge spike and then a quick die-off. It's their emotional response that bang. One and a half seconds out in front of that is a little bump that occurs.

That little bump occurs every time a startling reaction is gonna occur. So he came up with the idea, you take four guys in a Jeep or a five ton or a three quarter or whatever. You take three or four guys, you wire them together, you run them through an averaging box into a computer and the computer monitors looking for that little bump. And when it sees one of those little bumps, it lights up three red LEDs in the leading

edge of a helmet and the guy driving the truck or whatever who's operating the vehicle is wearing that helmet and when those light up he stomps the brake immediately. The IED will go off in front of them. Whoa. That a broadside. Whoa. We set up Corv Engineers. We got a mock village, Corps of Engineers to set the IEDs, unbeknownst to anybody. We wanted volunteers from the Marine Corps of the Army to test this. And they all agreed up to the point of actually doing it in everybody backed up. Why? I don't know. How did it get back out? You can demonstrate it in a lab. You can demonstrate it. Why wouldn't you test that? I have no idea. Neither do I.

It's craziness. It is. It is. But all human beings have these capacities. It's built into us. I mean, it's a survival mechanism. It's ancient. It goes back to the beginnings of human. It's the reason we covet the earth.

We're in charge of the entire world now. There are no cave bears anymore, no saber tooth tigers. The predators of humans are all gone and we don't have long nails. We don't have extra fur and we certainly don't have the savagery of a saber tooth tiger. Why aren't we gone? Tiger. Why aren't we gone? They are. All the predators of humans are gone from the beginning of man to now. Except man itself. Except man himself. And guess who the greater predation is coming from on man, his man himself. So. Can you remote view through time? Yes, not a problem.

You can go back in time, you can go forward in time. And there's some proof that no human being operates in the moment, ever. We're affected by our past, we're affected by our future. We know that to be true, we just don't know what the aperture is. We do know going into the past is way easier than going into the future and the reason why is you go into the past

all the concepts that support action in the past you're familiar with. Like you like to stick a dynamite, it's going to blow up and you know that because that concept's real. So you go into the past and you see a booby trap with dynamite, booby trap with dynamite. It's understandable. You go into the future just sometimes just hours, maybe a week or two weeks or a couple months, things happen for which no extent, there's no existing concept that supports it. An example would be, let's say we live in 1970 and we target a lab, a specific room in Sylvania Labs in 1975, where they built the first pump laser, where they got it up to enough, enough range to get a punch a hole through four inches of stainless steel. Target that 1970 and tell me how they did it. You

can't. All you can do is say, there's a beam of light going through four inches of stainless steel. How did they do that? Beats the hell out of me. It's like somebody sent me once. I got targeted on a on an accelerator and I tried to sketch it. Have you ever been inside a accelerator room? Not to my knowledge. You couldn't photograph it. Never mind sketch it. I mean, it's like, and I told the guy, I said, I'm trying to draw this thing for two hours,

and I finally said, I finally said, oh, the hell with this, it's an accelerator. I can't go away, I can't draw the goddamn thing. I mean, excuse me, but I mean... Would it be possible to manipulate the past or the future? Manipulate what again? Would it be possible to manipulate time? So things that have happened in the past or things that are going to happen in the future.

I suppose you could if you had enough advance warning on something. You could be looking for it to the point that you could use it. Well, I mean, I guess you actually have already answered my question with the lights, you know, in the helmet. Yeah. Stopping it for an IED that would be technically manipulating the future. The things we don't know is, does that become a permanent thing or do people learn

their way out of it? In other words, that's all finding good. It works perfectly for, let's say, three months. And it works so well, they don't know what an IED is. And so it slowly dissolves that little bump away. And the next IED gets them all. And now you're back to, you know. Gotcha. I mean, I have a lot more of your remote viewings that I'd like to discuss, but another question that pops into my head is, I mean, I have a lot more of your remote viewings

that I'd like to discuss, but another question that pops into my head is, how do you keep yourself from exhaustion? Meaning I could see somebody like you becoming somebody's favorite new toy. I wanna know this, I wanna know that, I wanna know this, and I need you to know this, I want to know that, I want to know this, and I need you to do this. You know, and so how do you, did that, that had to have happened with all the egos and

DC and then within the intelligence agencies? The first occasion, and it's one of the primary reasons why I retired from the Army. From mid-1982 until September 1st of 84, I was the only viewer. There were no other viewers. They brought in new people, but they were self-selected. These were people who said to the general when he asked, and that was a different general now, General Burt Stubblebine. They, whenever he asked someone, what do you think about this? They said, oh yeah, I'm psychic. Okay. And he bought it and brought him back to the headquarters. But then they had to be trained to be psychic.

And the training everybody bought was the training devised by the guy named Mingo Swan who worked for Stanford Research Institute. He came up with a training system that was never approved by anybody. Everybody thinks it was approved by Hal Put off it never was approved by how put off How put off allowed him to do that? because he needed the training system to

Maintain the project research and so Angus Juan became the trainer of the army people that were recruited by self-selection. The problem with that is there's so much wrong with that. You now have people, like I said, anybody can remote you. I teach people. I've had one person in 16 different programs Or possibly more I don't know how many I've done now who

One person who said they couldn't remote view from the six days of training I gave at the end of the training I always say to people everybody who is totally convinced that they remote viewed during this six and a half days or six days, raise your hand. Everybody raised their hand. And I always, I always preface that by saying, it doesn't have to be great remote viewing. I'm just talking that you know for a fact That you gave some item of detail about a target That you did not have a clue about before And that detail turned out to be correct. That would be what you call remote viewing

They all raise their hand except for one person. That was a Reporter who was collecting data to write a report on. So I know everybody can remote view to some degree. The problem is afterwards they don't, nobody wants to do the practice, Nobody wants to beat themselves against the wall for the next three years to be really good at it. No, that's when they start looking for the, okay, what's the easy part? When do I get the pill that I take? And I'm a master remote viewer. Would you say that about bowling?

Has somebody taught you how to bowl? That's my question to them. And they go, why would I do that? Bowling's fun. Well, it's the same thing. How clear, I mean, what state of mind are you in when you are, what is your, do you have a, do you prepare for, for, for, for a viewing? That's a, that's a great question.

I have what I call a cool down period. That's where I have to get all the crap out of my head. I want to be as clearheaded as I can be when I start doing a problem. If I can't get all the crap out of my head, it just gets in a way, or I can't control my ego, it gets in a way. I want to get all those things out of the way.

So when I do a remote viewing, I have what I call the cool down period. It's where I just slow everything down, get as much out of my head as I can before I do a remote viewing. How long does that take you? It was getting upwards an hour and a half. That's it? Well, that's long enough when you got a deputy director hanging out waiting for his answer.

Yeah. They don't wait an hour and a half. I'll tell you that right now. They like want it right now. I mean, I just, I feel like it would take me a month to clear my head. Sometimes I wish I had a month to clear mine. Me too. to clear my head. Sometimes I wish I had a month to clear mine. Me too.

What I, I started going to the Monroal Institute many years ago, okay? The Monroal Institute is probably the most important place I found in my life because I learned to, I started going there when I had this problem and clearing your head, clearing my head. And when it got to be an hour and a half, an hour and 35 minutes, I started getting a lot of difficulties from my boss in the remote viewing place. Yeah, for me. He said, go find a way to clear your head better, faster. So I said, yeah, okay. The Institute, the Mono Institute, taught me very quickly how to use their technology to become calm, empty my mind,

and be prepped for remote viewing. I cut the hour and a half to literally three to five minutes. What kind of technology is this? They use sound there. They use different programs to elicit that response, that calming response, that ability to see something other than the immediate moment, to see something other than who and what you are.

Their whole premise at the Institute is to help human beings discover that they are a lot more than what's encased in this physical body, that your spiritual nature, your whole presence on the planet, your job, everything about you is important and can be used for the betterment of human beings. And that's, I love the place for that. And they teach you how to reach out and go places you just would never choose to go in terms of development, in terms of belief, in terms of being open-minded, that sort of thing. I think maybe I like it so much because as we discussed very early on about my angst with racism and all that,

there is none of that there at the Institute. You go and spend a week there with 22, 20 other people and they become family. And it doesn't matter where they're from, who they are, what they do in life, how much money they have, none of that matters. It's like 22 human beings coming together, gifted with a belief and an understanding that they're all equal. And they all have a presence

in the world. They all have the power to change it. And they all have open minds and they can all open minds and they can all relate in some way. I've supported the Institute for as long as I've been a remote viewer and I probably will till the day I die because they're that good. And it's not just one individual. it's everything it was created to be. And believe me, it's been a battle hanging on to that for them because enlarging it to a certain point would destroy that, making it smaller to a certain point would destroy that. Bringing in too much ego would destroy that. Trainers have to be, have to earn their right to train there or would destroy that.

Everything about it is in balance or tries to be in balance. The fact that it has survived its developer, which is Robert Monroe, and my beautiful wife, and his wife, if it weren't for those two women, he never would have succeeded. He brought the idea, he brought the creativity to it. He did a lot of that stuff. He obviously designed the sounds that are used, the technologies, that sort of thing.

But he was like a rough cob that wouldn't have worked if it hadn't been for his wife, who was a beautiful, wonderful woman in her own right, who was very creative and a designer at heart and took care of the softer things to include softening him a little bit. And my wife, who I'm proud to say, was the director, actually was the first person who started it with him.

So she was the chief cook, bottle washer, letter writer, drove around in a truck with a helper with the mattresses in the back, you know, that kind of thing. It wore a lot of hats. Yeah, right. If it won for the effort of those three people, it wouldn't be what it is today. So. Sounds like a fascinating place I would like to see. I go there and reduce my cool down from an hour and a half to three to five minutes.

I'm not kidding you, the technology sticks. Wow. What, Bob Monroe made a tape for me with his sounds and I used it for quite a while. And you know, tapes stretch after a while. They're no longer the same. And my tape started stretching. So I went into him one morning and I said, I was there for one of those elongated weekends.

I said, Bob, my tape stretched is no good anymore. So he took it out of my hands and threw it in the trash can and walked away. And I said, Whoa, whoa, wait a minute, Bob, I need another tape. He said, No, you don't. He said, close your eyes and remember what it sounded like. And I did. And you know, today you can wire me up and remember what it sounded like. And I did. And you know, today you can wire me up and I can still do that and you'll see the hemispheric

synchronization occurring in my brain. Once you have that effect embedded in you, it doesn't go away. You can keep regenerating it just by closing your eyes or whatever it sounded like. That's how I do my cooldowns. And some of my remote viewings that I got into, I wouldn't have been able to do without it because the stuff I did in Japan, looking for missing people Typical remote viewing for that would be sometimes six to eight hours. Started at eight thirty or nine in the morning and wouldn't stop straight through all I do is drink ice water the whole time.

Are you mentally and physically exhausted after a session? No more than you would be if you were intently working on something for six straight hours. Okay. Okay, same exhaustion. Somebody asked me once, can you do remote viewing when you have the flu? I don't know how effective are you at your desk

when you have the flu. It's the same thing. It's no more difficult, no less difficult than a normal job. Oh, good. Once you get used to it. Oh, good. You beat yourself up initially. Do you think that you have, do you continue to, do you continue to hone your skills and become better or have you plateaued?

No, I've never plateaued and I've never lost capability. Okay. Originally, everybody thought somebody who was psychic would be very psychic to a peak and anyway, I slowly lose it. There was this kind of slow failure rate. I mean, well, I did it for 44 years. It took three attempts at retirement, but I finally stopped doing it.

I think that was mainly because of my, my habituation of going, yes, I'll take care of that. That finally went away in me because it was becoming more invasive and more tiring than not. So, you know, I'm ready to let somebody else step up. The problem is nobody wants to work at it as hard. I won't lie to anybody. I've had to de-namorate it for 44 years. It's not magic.

It doesn't happen. Then you're magically gifted. No, you have to de-namorate it over and over and over all the time. And if you stop for like a month to clear your head, you got to go back to square two and start over. Okay. Because you lose that rhythm that's in that. So no, it's hard. I, I wouldn't lie to anybody. The problem is everybody wants a magic pill. They don't want to hammer away at it. Yeah.

Now I've met one or two really gifted people that could be world classroom of yours. They don't want to spend the time on it. Actually, they can't. They have families, you know, they have to support their families. When I retire, of course, the army paid for everything when I was doing it. When I retired from the army, I started, well, why? There's that proverbial ego stepping in. that proverbial ego stepping in. My wife and I started a company called Intuitive Intelligence Applications.

It's incorporated now 38 years or something in Virginia. We started the company thinking that we could make a living doing remote viewing for people and companies and that sort of thing. And I remember when we started the one thing we said to each other, well we'll give it a year and see whether it's gonna work 30 some years ago. And it worked great. And the way it's worked is, you know, it's been up and down, up and down, up and down, but because I don't advertise anywhere, it's all word of mouth, one person to another. Most of my corporate stuff, which has been very supportive, I mean very supportive, was because I guaranteed total anonymity to any of my customers. And the reason why is because

most corporations I did work for had CEOs and CFOs that were publicly owned companies. And if they knew a psychic was advising their CEO or their CFO. Bad things would happen. So we just didn't tell anybody. I was like hired as the information manager or something. And there were a couple of companies I worked for off and on for 15 or 20 years. And I have to tell you, I made a ton of money from them. And there are a couple individuals I worked very hard for, for a number of years. One guy wrote books about things like the Titanic

and stuff like that. I did the remote viewing for him. It turned out my remote viewing was more accurate than written history. Because he went as far as going back to the records of the interviews with the people that were rescued And found that things I said in my reports were accurate things written about it by history historians were wrong Like there were two guys in the tower

Together when they hit the iceberg. One guy in the tower. The other guy was in the kitchen getting a tin of tea and didn't even know it was going to happen. And that's never been in history reports until my remote viewing. Now it's in history reports. Wow. Stuff like that. Wow.

Um, I started out, uh, well, we digress too much there. Let's, let's, let's talk about the colonel that was kidnapped by an Italian Marxist group. Oh, general Dozier. Yeah, the Roper Goddard, the rubber gate, kidnapped him. They took him in the in the evening, I think it was about 6.30 in the evening. They just kicked his door in and went into his, his living room, or not, into his house. And they duct taped his wife to a chair in the kitchen, blindfolded her and everything and they took him. And so she wasn't discovered till 7am the following morning by a maid came in and that's

the first time they knew that he had been kidnapped. So they had no idea where they took him. It was just like a 10 hour head start. And they were well known for going straight into a communist block country with their hostage. They were also well known for collecting a ransom and then sending the hostage back in multiple boxes. So it was a pretty, pretty harsh thing that they were looking forward to. So they really wanted to find him.

So it was all hands on deck. And again, Hartley Trent did a lion's share of that work. And what I did is I kept saying, they took him to a place called Padua. Well, Padua was an archaic name for Ravana, which was the city he was kidnapped in. And so they started thinking, well, Joe keeps saying Padua, so maybe it's the archaic part of the city, the old part of the city. So they went to the old part of the city and they found what Hartley Trent and I both described as a dead in street.

And it was exactly as he and I had sketched it. Adjacent to it was a big apartment building. So there's four entries to this apartment building. The problem was, is he being held in the apartment building? And if we go into the apartment to look for him, we only have a finite amount of time once we kick the door in, because they intend to kill him If they hear us coming, okay

So We tried to work all that out So we're doing remote viewing and and di a took our remote viewings and put them together And sent them over to the Italians. Well, the Italians put them with all the other psychic information they got. So they got like 900 psychics in Italy who all knew where he was. And so they had this mess of psychics. So they took the top two psychics they knew of in Italy and they went with the first one and went to a hotel and kicked the door in

on a room and caught one of their senior statesmen in bed with another guy. Probably as he was married at three kids. That huge thing all over the front page. So they thought about the second psychic that they knew really well in Italy and they followed that person and did what she said and kicked another door in and caught a guy with three women who was also married net kids. Was a political guy. Another big headline. So he took all the psychic material and dumped it in the trash can. Said no more psychics. DIA and our State Department went off. No, you will use our stuff. Send it back over. My understanding is in the backseat of a jet with the guy carrying it, the briefcase, barfing

all the way with the refueling and all this stuff. So he gets there and he said, you will use this stuff. All right, all my barfings for no good. And now he suggested they use it. So they used it. So now they got this quandary. They want to go into this building. Well, in the interim, they caught a cousin or a brother or something of one of the

Red Brigade's members. And he said, yes, they have a safe room in one of those apartments. But he didn't know which staircase. He just knew it was in that apartment building. So the big problem was which entry, which entry. Well, Harley Trent came in one morning and he said, I've been working on this all night. I can't come up with anything. All I kept getting was the smell of roses. Well, it turned out there was a rose garden in front of one of the entries.

My understanding is that's the sole reason they went in that entry. And they got the guy just before he pulled the trigger on the back of his head. Wow. And he was chained to a radiator inside a tent that had been erected inside the apartment. His eyes and his, he had headsets taped over his ears. He was listening to acid rocked the whole time and his eyes had been malingfolded and he had a head cloth wrapped around him and taped so he had no idea where he was. Couldn't hear anything but the whole time he was thinking of his family and everything. Well that's something else Harley Trent came up with. I didn't have a lot of that but I had a lot of the scriptures of the tent and stuff like that. So what we did when he was rescued

we brought him to our unit. We flew him back to the States and brought him to our unit and handed him all the reports, shuffled them all together in a nice way and put them in a folder. And I think he spent like five or six hours going over and over and over. And we asked him if he had any comments afterwards.

And he said, yeah, he said there were a couple of comments. One is, every thought I ever had about my family is just dead accurate in this report. You're kidding me. Yeah. He said, secondly, he said, I can't vouch for anything that was going on around me because I didn't know.

But the fact that you, the Italian police came in and saved me, I gotta say, they knew somehow or another that I was being held and how I was being held. The 10, all the rest of that stuff is accurate. You need to start a school where important people and important jobs are taught how and what to think to affect their own rescues. I thought that was a brilliant statement. Me too. I have no idea where it went. But everything publicized about him says, I don't know anything about psychic function, which is great. That was our cover.

But another guy who was a hostage being held in Tehran, we monitored the hostages in Tehran for 14 months for their health and welfare and how they were being treated that sort of thing and Heartily again, he came in one morning and said they're gonna release a hostage But I don't know his name. It has it rhymes in some way with the face guards and a deck of cards well, it turns out the guy's name was, uh, Queen and he was released because he had MS. And that hardly said his name rhymes with a face card in some way. And I think he has MS.

That's what he said. Based on that report, they sent an entire team of doctors, experts in MS, to Germany. Four days later, they released Queen. He had MS. In the meantime, the State Department said, this whole report's bogus by your guy because none of our people who have MS would ever have been sent overseas. And he never made that claim ever in his lifetime.

Well, it turned out he lied because he wanted to go overseas. So it flared up. It was in remission when he went overseas and when he was taking an hostage, it flared up. So all of that turned out to be correct. The other thing that we saw, spider webs in the trees of the courtyard, spider webs turned out to be tripwires that Claymore mounted in the trees. We saw an entry exit possibility through the underground septic systems. It was through the fact that there was an opening to the septic systems that was square, which was unusual.

It's the only place in the world with square manhole covers because they fall into the hole if you open and everywhere else they're round. And it goes on and on and on. Wow. They wanted to insert a guy in the compound that could do nighttime recon ordering. And the problem was they needed a reporting capability, that sort of thing. Well, there was a boat in the car garage. It had been demastid. It had an onboard radio.

It had food on board. It had everything, but the batteries to run the radio And had a whole bunch of cars in there with batteries Or they use that or not. I don't know But I can tell you I got called in once By someone in the Pentagon who wanted to know why we knew as much about a rescue

attempt as the top 11 people designing a rescue attempt. He wanted to know who our source was and I said it's psychic information and he said that was bullshit. He wanted to know the source. I wasn't gonna walk out of his office. And he put a cock 45 on the desk to prove it. Where'd he go with that? I told him some things about his relationships. That he didn't want to hear.

But I walked out of there. All my hair standing up up back of my neck. I mean stupid stuff like that. We were getting indications for months you know stolen vehicles, automatic weapons being put together and hidden, blockages being built out of concrete block in certain entryways, guys in hotel rooms with telescopes. I mean, it was going on and on and on. We didn't know what to do with it, so we started putting it in an addendum. That was a mistake. Wow. Damn.

Now here's the thing. If we're doing that, why wouldn't terrorist organizations be doing that? Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't make any sense. It's scary. Yeah. Scares the hell out of me. It bothers me a great deal. Joe, all you need is that little window, that little mistake to capitalize on. What after this, I believe, is this when you retired? After going two years without any relief at all as a viewer, I said, that's it, I'm done.

The general, general Bert Stubblevine at the time offered me anything I wanted. Said, you want to be a line officer, you want rank, you want money, you want, what is it you want? I can hire you back as a GS-15. Just don't leave. I said, no, I want to retire. That's what I want. And so I submitted my retirement papers and I waited, waited, waited. Two months went by and never saw him again.

So I went into the office, the place where I got the papers done up. Oh, Bert Sibleyne came in like a month ago and tore him up, said, you didn't want to retire. So I did all my retirement papers again and went to him first. So I just signed right here, General, on the top. You get to be the first one. I really don't want to do this. Just signed right here, General. So we signed him and I hand carried him around and retired. What did you get the Legion of Merritt for? I got it for two things.

I was surprised by it, actually. Now you're sending a copy of it if you'd like to see it. Thank you. I was really surprised by it because it came from the office of the Secretary of the Army. Nobody wrote it up that I'm aware of. I got it for all the time I spent overseas doing intel work for NSA, ASA, CIA, you know, people like that. And the other half was for the remote feeling, but I did.

It turned out I was the only one that got an award for anything. Don, Harley Trent should have got it. Same thing I got. Don Harley Trent should have got it same thing I got Another guy I I'm not gonna say his name here because his family. I know really well He dropped dead in my office 29 years old

Married less than a year had a baby on the way He is another friend of mine. He came in one day and he said I, what are you doing here? He's supposed to be in New York. I couldn't go, there's something wrong. And I said, he handed me his briefcase. I didn't ask him what was in it. I just put it under my desk. I said, let me get you some coffee. And I went to the back room.

I heard the thump when he hit the floor. get you some coffee and I went to the back room. I heard the thump when he hit the floor. And I went in and he was laying on the floor. And I fell for a pulse and it was thready. So I started giving him CPR. By then I learned CPR. And everybody came in and said, what's going on, What's going on?

Because between breaths, I was screaming out the door, you know, call the hospital, call an ambulance. And finally they came over, took one, one look at me doing CPR and turned around and walked out. Because what they don't tell you about CPR is you're giving this breath of life to somebody and they're puking in your mouth the whole time and I guess they couldn't stand seeing that. But I gave them CPR for like 45 minutes because they couldn't find us because they had taken our buildings off the maps. Oh man. For Fort Meade, that's part of our security.

And we were right across the street from the hospital. It's finally somebody went out on the road and waved the ambulance down. That third time it was coming down the road with a siren. Brought them in and they brought me over to the hospital. I talked to the doctor there and he said, I brought you over because I want you to know his blood gases were perfect. His heart was trashed.

There's no way you could have brought him back. Sorry to hear that. That's life. I felt really badly for his family, his new family. How did it feel leaving, you know, being retired? I mean, you put a lot of work in. Did it, I mean... I felt relieved, relieved.

At the same time, I felt like... I felt like there was so much more I could have done. But the environment was not supportive. It was terrorizing, actually, because we had as many enemies as we had friends. I had, but I'll explain it this way. The guys on the street, agents in the field, guys that were hanging it out, for Uncle Sam, loved us. Guys at the very top, senators and congressmen

and generals and admirals that knew what we were doing and the effect we were having, loved us. They couldn't be damaged. They were so high up. Didn't matter if they were standing next to a psychic or not. Bureaucrats in the middle. Take them all, just make a big sandwich out of them and feed them to some big shark because they're not worth a damn throughout for this in power.

They can be damaged by a psychic. They don't want to stand next to them. That's my... Do you miss those days? Yeah, I do. There's a lot I could have done. Instead I wound up doing a lot for companies and people and I got to say, when you find a live missing kid, that's like, you can't beat that with a stick.

When you find one that you fought with a detective over or you fought for five hours with a sheriff to get you to get him to do something with your material and then they finally find the kid and they've used your material to do that and they've only been dead an hour, you don't want to spend any time in a room with them after that. Because then my own desire is to just like terminate them. You know, you're too stupid to be human being. You know, I just feel that way. It's enraging to a certain point and I don't know where to go with it. It's like, yeah.

How many children did you save? Do you know? I have no idea. Do you remember? Maybe a dozen. What is one that really stands out to you? One that really stands out? I think the kid that they called me about when I was in Las Vegas, I gave a paper at a Mufon

Vegas, I gave a paper at a Mufon group there. Gave the paper, ate a big dinner, went to bed early. I got to call it like two in the morning from the mountain that overlooks where I live now, down in the valley, which is all golf courses. On the mountain, it's ski resort. That's the mountain part of Winnipeg. And I got a call from the female police chief. They had a female police chief then. And she called me at two in the morning and said, we have a missing five year old and I understand you help with this sort of thing. I'm like, yeah, okay. I said, so what you want me to do is tell you where to go to find the kid. Yes, I said, okay. Do you know what a compass rose is?

And she said, yeah. Usually if you say, uh, if you say compass, they don't understand that. Drawing compass, compass, whatever. So I said, uh, I can't remember the degrees. I said the compass rose you want to go to the last place you was seen On the compass rose you want to go to a certain degree and you would take I think it was 125 or 129. I can't remember now. It's a specific number of steps In that direction and when you get there Stop and just yell his name out and he'll

probably respond. It turns out the guy she sent to do that, the deputy, came back and said, there's no reason to do that. I can tell you right now, you're not going to find a kid that way. And she said, why not? And he said, because I went to a class where I was taught by the FBI on this, and kids under age 10 never go uphill. Never, never go uphill. So she called me back, woke me up the second time. This was like 20 minutes after I went back to sleep. And I said, yeah, what now? She said, I was getting upset. And she said, my deputy told me that it's straight up

the side of the mountain and a kid would never do that under age 10. And I said, some pretty ugly things. I said, just ugly things I said Just go do what I told you and I slammed the phone down and got back in bed And she woke me up again like 15 minutes later just getting back asleep again And I said, okay, okay What's going on and she said we found him and I said, okay, okay, what's going on?

And she said, we found him. And I said, thank you. Have a good night. I hung up. What I didn't know when I found out later, his father told him, if you ever get lost, go to the nearest light and wait for me. Nearest light was on the back of an empty cabin. Somebody had left the back, the back step light on up the mountain. So that's where he went. And when he got to the cabin, it was all locked up. So he climbed up on a couch on the back porch and laid down on a couch and fell asleep.

Wow. And so this, this detective went up the mountain and stopped right behind the cabin and yelled his name and he set up and said, what? Oh my God. I think that was, that was the best because I was getting so upset with the whole thing, because she kept waking me up. Just go do what I told you to.

Damn it. And I don't know where it comes from, it just comes in my head. But there's been a couple that have been really bad. Have you met any of the kids? No. No? Do you want to? No.

Don't need to. Why not? Don't need it. If they're safe, they're back with the people who care about them. That's all that matters. I don't, I don't, beyond that, I don't, I don't, beyond that I don't, I don't eat it anything that that's the old intelligence stuff. Oh yeah this company didn't get wiped out it. Side flanked an NVA unit took a 190 NVA. Hey good for you. Where'd you get the info?

Who cares? In fact, they came looking for me once. Some of the staffs are in Vietnam and the unit I talked to met an NVA unit moving through their area, which I knew was going to happen. And nobody was doing anything about it. So I put on lieutenant bars and went by and saw their intel officer. And he and I discussed it. And I said, if, if you were here and you can get somebody to provide you with a hard rock block here, maybe a couple of tanks, you'll turn them this way you got them they're

in a ravine and that's what they did so they came to our unit looking for this lieutenant they give him an award and I'm hiding under my cock I'm hiding under my cot. Don't tell anybody I'm here. If I've been the whole, you know, down under my cot. Don't tell anybody I'm here. I could have gone to Livingworth. I didn't even think about it. I did some stupid stuff.

There's a certain freedom in that, you know, when you don't have to be responsible one way or the other. I'd like to, Uh. I'd like to, I'd like to talk about some of your other remote viewings. Now one in particular I'd like to discuss is you were tasked with remote viewing Mars,

I don't know what I understand. And the time period, I believe, was 1 million BC. Yeah, 1 million BC. Who was that directed by? Well, when it was tasked, I was sleeping in the industrial cube, the sealed cube in Bob Monroe's lab at the Monroe Institute, because we had been working on going out of body and controlling it.

And I was exhausted. So we've been working. This was Sunday, I think. And he woke me up and I said, yeah,'m awake. What's going on? He said well, I have some people here from the Department of Department of the Army And they have a target for you And I said, okay What do you want me to do he said well

Why make you said I have an envelope here there's nothing written on it it's in my pocket tell me something about it so it started out with a really large pyramid and I said first thing words out of my mouth was this must be a new discovery and he said why, why do you say that? I said, because it's huge. It's bigger than the Pyramid of Giza. Must be a new discovery somewhere. And then he said, well, tell me something about it. That's what I want to know. And so I said it's got really large rooms inside. It's kind of surprising because the way pyramids are built, that can't be done.

You can't have large rooms inside because of the weight, the weight of the construction. So it must be some new form of construction. So are you sure it's not a new discovery? And he said, just tell me what I need to know. So I said, well it appears to be some form of, protection of survivors of some cataclysm and they're in stasis. They're waiting for somebody to come. I said, but I think it's too late. I think they're all dead. And he said, why do you say that? And I said, because I feel like the messages I'm getting are like leftover mental images, things that they pass differently from normal or something like that.

So he asked me some other question. He moved me around in the target and asked me some other questions and they and it turned out there were six specific targets that I was given in that particular case and all six of them I described exactly what was standing there and when I say that I mean what was also pictured in negatives by JPL, except for Paulson Laboratory, California. And so I finally said it's like a special race of people or something. I'm getting humans just like we are, but I'm not so sure they're humans like we understand humans because they're way bigger. So what do you mean? I said they're like 10

feet tall, really huge, but they're proportionately the same and very human-like. So I don't know what's going on here. I said, and the sun looks really weird. And he said, I don't care about the sun. Tell me more what's on the ground. So he was being a pretty good monitor at the time. And so we basically finished the whole line of it and I came out. I said, what's going on? And I was introduced to these people and the guy that had brought them was Fred Atwater,

my old training officer. So this was, as far as I was concerned, was an active mission because we were still doing remote fueling with the project. And so he said, so where is this? Is this a new discovery or something? And he says, well, Bob's got the envelope that has the target identified in it. And Bob, oh yeah, I got it right here and he pulled it out of his shirt, opened it up, it's an envelope, nothing written on it. And so he opened up the envelope and inside it said, Mars, one million years BC. And I said, wow. I mean, what are you going to say?

But everything that's actually on the ground, I describe. There is a, well, I decided to do, well, it's the next time I was in California, I was going to go by JPL and get copies of the negatives because somebody said, oh, that's all BS. And I said, no, I think they're pictures, specific pictures for the different GPS location. See these were all GPS's that they read to me while I was in the box. The GPS's in my mind were for Earth. I never heard of GPS's for another planet. It turns out every planet in our universe has got GPS's that match the Earth's because they're all spherical as well as the moons and everything else. So I didn't understand it to be off the Earth.

I thought GPS's only worked on the Earth. So that's why I kept thinking it was a new discovery But it turned out I went to JPL And I walked up to the counter and I had the actual card It had the GPS is written on it Six or seven GPS I think there were seven and I just didn't do the seventh because I was too tired I've been I I think there were seven and I just didn't do the seventh because I was too tired. I worked on it for maybe an hour and a half and I was tired anyway from working all day. So I walked up to the desk and the guy said, can I help you?

And I said, yeah, I understand all the pictures taken in space belong to the American people. And he said, of course they do. It's taxes paid for them. I said, OK, I'd like to see all the pictures for these GPSs. And he took one look at the card and said, oh, that's the old city on Mars. And opened the drawer and pull out a packet and handed it to me. And inside the packet are all the negatives.

And I blew up the negatives and guess what's in my book? Everything I described. An old fort, pyramids, big impact crater with a road running through it. There's a there's a road run straight as an arrow for 1200 kilometers on Mars that go right through the heart of a huge impact crater. And where the road come through you can see where the impact crater has been modified

to let the road through one side and out the other. Here's the thing that made it real for me. The outer edges of the impact crater, they know how tall the edges are of the impact crater because there's a half inch of shadow line around them and they know the angle that the picture was taken and from where and the sun's position and all that. So they can tell you that the half inch of shadow line around the outside edge of the impact crater tells you that it's 3,000 feet high, the walls in the impact crater. That's not really a super high wall on an impact crater, but they don't tell you and it's shown in the picture is in the upper rim edge of the impact crater. There's a little triangular piece sticks out on the side

of the impact crater that had to have been put there by somebody. It's a construct. It sticks straight out at a perfect 90 degree angle. It goes like that. Is it part of the pyramid? No. It's part of the wall of the impact crater. So you got an edge up here, 3,000 feet up, and there's a triangular piece that sticks out and goes back in. And on top of that is a pyramid.

It looks like a pyramid because you're looking straight down on top of it. The shadow from that pyramid that you're going straight down on top of is two and a half inches out. Now, if the impact crater has a half inch shadow and it's 3,000 feet tall, how tall do you think that 2 1 half inch shadow is? It's up there. I said to the guy at JP, oh, and he showed him to me. I looked at it.

I said, how tall do you figure this is? And he said, how tall do you figure this is? And he said, really tall. And I said, okay, how did it get there? It had to be put there after the impact crater hit after that thing that made the impact crater had hit Mars. It couldn't have been put there after, mean before because the impact would have destroyed it away I Just seeing it's literally tens of thousands of feet tall. What the hell is it?

And he said well a lot of people think it's a shard. It kind of grew there Started laughing it grew Yeah, I'm sure of laughing. It grew. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that thing grew there. Who built the support for it on the edge of the impact radar? Well, nobody knows about that. It's anybody's guess. So there's no doubt in my mind that what they're saying about this old city is true because that's true.

I mean, it's like I ask questions about it and they just look at you like you're stupid and say, well, we don't know. Why did you take pictures of that area of Mars? Well, we don't know. How do you think that got to the point? We don't know. I mean, what is your thought process after that? I have to think.

The only aliens on our planet is us. And I have good reason to say that. I think we're the aliens on this planet because we don't give one rat's butt about this planet. We take and take and take whatever we want from it. We don't give a damn what happens to the climate, the planet or anything else. We have shit so badly in our nest that you see people dying, left and right of more and more cancers, and we got to go, I wonder why that's happening. It's stupidity. It's, God, I'm

mighty. And, but everybody wants to think with a master race, We are human beings. We own the world. The Bible says take control. Sounds apolitical to me. Maybe just take it. I mean, is that disturbing to you at all? Very much so, yeah.

Very much so. That everything on this planet, what human cares about this planet, if a group of wolves, let's say wolves out of Alaska, if they run out of food and they can't hunt food anymore where they live, they kill off their young, they kill off their dead, they move to a place where they can find game that they can eat. Only the strong survives. But they do it to save their family in it. And they only kill and eat what they need to kill and eat. They don't do it out of savagery,

and they don't do it because they're bad. They do it because they're in tune with the very world that they live in. They understand it, they operate within it. They do what's necessary to survive only. If you're in another animal on this planet, it doesn't do the same thing except for human beings. We just take what we want

and it doesn't matter what it does to the planet and we just keep doing it over and over and over and it's about power, money, influence in the governments of the planet and it's a predominant reason for a war. You know, it's what keeps the coffers filling up. It's part of how we can produce something that gives us lots of money back that we can enjoy. And all it costs is a little war here, a little war there. And you know, you can't not buy more airplanes or tanks because it takes 12 states now to make a tank that's a hundred and twenty

thousand jobs that would disappear overnight if we didn't buy any new tanks so you have model two model three brand new kind Bigger gun, you know faster tracks, whatever, you know, we just keep Reinventing reasons for that stuff why why can't we Decide to put everything back to normal and stop all the foolishness and pay people to do that. That seems to be a more realistic way to live on a finite planet where we're not going to kill ourselves or ruin it or in some way destroy the very thing that supports us. I think we came here because of something that happened on Mars. Are we the cause of it?

Who knows? Do you ever look more into previous viewings out of just out of curiosity? Like perhaps? No, I can't. What you would, what you would do, No, I can't do that. I can't target myself because then I know what I'm working on. Makes sense.

There are things that I will work on where I know what it is I'm working on, but only because the answer is completely unknown to anyone. That might be, I don't know, who broke into the big museum in Boston and ripped off three of the finest pieces of artwork ever stolen. And where did they go and who owns them now? I Haven't a think they're in private collections and they go into these vaults and sit in front of them once in a while and go Oh, I own it. Oh You know that kind of stuff mm-hmm Stolen for a reason that kind of thing

But I mean Um, but I mean, I don't know. Let's talk about Skimwalker Ranch. Did you have any affiliation with that? Yeah, uh, I was asked by, uh, Big O to targets, Skinwalker Ranch. When he owned it, I guess he owned it. I'm not sure if he owned it or... From my understanding, Robert Bigelow owned it previous to Brandon Fugel.

Right, that's right. Like, this is back when he owned it. And he asked me if I needed to go there. And I said, no, I'll need to go to skin walk or anything. He asked me what was going on there and I said, I suspect there is something bizarre going on there that no one's faced before. But then there's lots of places like that all over the planet. And it's gonna take on involved amount of study. You're gonna have to spend a lot of time there and do a lot of things you might not wanna do.

It's gonna be expensive. Then as soon as I said that, well, you know, can I hire you to come out and take care of that? No. Cause I'll never live in, never live where you live. I'll put it that way. You know, I think he's an interesting guy. I think he's got a lot of interest in different things that he's trying to accomplish and I wish him all the luck in the world. But I don't need to be part of it. And I kind of blew it off a little bit.

I did some remote viewing for him, but I didn't come up with anything significant. So I think he and I just decided to go our separate ways. I think they're over excited and over exercising themselves over this ranch. I think there's probably some bizarre stuff happening there, but it has more to do with this location than it does anything else. There might be, I don't know, huge electromagnetic Deformity there in some way that affects machines and cows and people

And whatever, but I don't think it's anything UFO related or Mysteriously related to anything. I've never really seen a really good mystery other than maybe the guy in the incredible armor in Thailand, but Well, the city on Mars seems pretty awful. That's pretty far out there, but I have no reason to think it's not real. Why didn't mean that?

No, no, I understand what you were saying. I understand very well what you were saying. This is something I'm not thinking about until I die. I guarantee it. My problem is when you do remote viewing, I can't control what they target me against. And as long as some people are in charge of that, they want to get involved in that and know that I'm a very good remote viewer, they usually try to generate that kind of stuff. I can usually tell when I'm being fished. So I try to give as honest an answer as I can in terms of what I'm sensing. But if I feel like I'm

being used in some way, they don't get anything. Gotcha. You know, I just don't do anything. I just say sorry, nothing's coming in. Have a nice day. anything. I just say sorry nothing's coming in. Have a nice day. Can you remote view into a different dimension? I suspect it's possible. The only reason I say that is because I've done some remote viewing on some things that were probably operational and other dimensions. Trying to think of there's one project that was going on. It had to do with a certain kind of transmissions. I can't think of it right now. It was a form of transmission that could not be seen or picked up on in this reality. It was like transmitting sideways through

our time space but it couldn't be sensed or picked up on. It had to be in sync with whatever was receding and I can't remember the details of that but it had to do with some mysterious things that were happening around the ship. And I just have a little feeling on that. No, I can't think of a single target that I've been targeted on that was not doable. that I've been targeted on that was not doable. Could you describe, I mean, in what would your explanation

of another dimension be? My explanation of another dimension would be a place you would go to turn right without anybody knowing you turn right. That's another dimension. Another dimension could also be how we live our lives. Here's how I view human interaction. You and I are interacting in this room right now.

We met each other formally the first time this morning. When we're all done here and I leave, if we never saw each other again, somebody could say to me, did you meet him? And I could say, yeah, I met him. And I could say, well, what do you think he's doing now? And I could say, I haven't got a clue. He's not in my world anymore. Your world is where you are and what you're doing. And that's real only while you're doing it in that place at that time. When you change places, you're with different people. So the best somebody you were with earlier can say

is I know what I think he goes and does, but I can't tell you if he actually does it. I mean, we make a lot of assumptions about what we all know about each other. You really can't make those assumptions because we don't know if reality operates that way or not. Two people who spend a lot of time together, like a husband and wife, share an almost known agreeable world that they operate within together because they have certain expectancies for what the other person is going to do and they always do it. Like they always come home or they always go to work, they always

raise the money that feeds, puts the food on the table, they always do certain things. So that's a kind of a shared reality. But if one of them disappears in the middle of that, you can't say that they're in the same world anymore, they could be in a completely different reality The best I could ever say is that when I would meet you again, you could tell me what you did And I could say I believe you But I can never know that to be true The only thing I can actually know about the world I'm in is what I experience directly.

So having said that, it's nice to be able to be with people and say, I believe everything you tell me because you have walked in many parts of the same world I perceive that I've walked in. Doesn't mean that we've had exactly the same experiences or we've been in exactly the same place in time, but it does mean that we've had similar things happen in our worlds that we can identify them together and talk about them. There's no guarantee that we're not completely in different worlds though. In other words, when I leave here, if I make a decision that takes me somewhere else,

I'm actually stepping out of time space into a different time space. I'm finding it's very difficult to explain how kind of my belief structure works. We're doing a great job. I think that reality, we make a lot of assumptions about reality and people we know and people in things that happen and don't happen. And I think that that's not a good thing. I think we need to be more understanding about the things that we can relate to one another that may be of value to us versus what we believe about someone else, which may or may not

be true. In other words, I'm more interested in sitting and talking with somebody and have them relate to me where they've been, what they did, that sort of thing. And it's not about saying, well, I understand that's true because history says that's true. No, I'm interested in what the person says was true because they did it. I want to believe them because they say they did it, might have been in a completely different world that stands alone from my world. No, there's an assumption that we're all on this planet. We're all sharing this planet and there's no guarantee that's happening. In a constructive reality, you have to question whether or not people who go to the same place

go to the same, same place, if you understand what I'm saying, because there's no relation to two people going to the same place. Ideally, they might have experienced it completely differently, or it may be in a different bubble than the one I'm in. In other words, I look at reality as just a huge room full of bubbles. And when I make a decision, I'm not going from this bubble to the tangent bubble I'm going from this bubble to some other bubbles somewhere else that's within the room of bubbles. When you and I are together we're tangent bubbles but when we leave one another we go to different bubbles in the same room full of bubbles.

You understand what I'm saying? So reality for me is a mass of bubbles, a possibility where we all go different ways for different reasons and we collect experiences that are somewhat similar maybe but never the same. So it's hard for me, I can always say to somebody, I trust you, I believe you, I accept what you're telling me is truth and that's the best I can do. I can never say I know exactly what you're talking about. It's, I see what you're, I mean, it's like the argument, does a tree make a sound when it falls, right? Nobody's around.

Right. You can't ever prove it. You can't prove it one way or the other. wise, and I'm furiously picky about this, sitting in a bar in New York and they had Cali on TV, my life, butchering people in my life. And some guy at the other end of the bar says, and some guy at the other end of the bar says, that was me, I'd never do that. And I had to get up off my bar stool and walk down to the end of the bar and looking dead in the eye and say,

you don't have a clue what you would do or not do in the same circumstance. And I'd appreciate it if you didn't condemn the man without knowing. And I walked back down and sat on my stool and the guy got up and walked out of the bar. It's like, that's truth. What he was saying, any truth, that's what he thinks. There's a huge difference between what you think and what you know to be true.

And I can tell you, I've seen enough in this world to never want to condemn somebody for something they do when I wasn't standing there watching it. I would never do that. That's a damn good way to live. Yeah. Because we don't know what we would do in the same circumstances as other people. And it's the very reason why we shouldn't put people in jail for life.

How long did it take you to arrive at this point? To this point? Mm-hmm. A lot of mistakes. A lot of understanding in my own very unlearned reality are my non-functioning understanding for how things work. And when you find that out, you find you're more tolerable to some extent, less tolerable than others. It's, I think, the very reason why I really wish I didn't know things about people through the media because it makes me form pretty hard rock feelings about some things that I shouldn't have.

And I could really digress into that easily. Yeah. It's the seed that's been planted. Yeah. That you didn't want. Yeah, right. I don't want to hear it. And not only that, but it upsets the apple cart for me in some cases where I would much rather be ignorant because then I'm less judgmental about it. When you're not ignorant, you can afford to be judgmental.

And that's a wrong way to be, I think, because it doesn't afford other people the ability to explain their cause, explain their reasons, or explain why they are the way they are. Now, there's some circumstances when I think that's necessary

when would that occur? Well, I think that's necessary, when would that occur? Well, I think it's necessary when you put someone in a position of authority over huge amounts of people. You have to have some truth from that person. If you can't get truth from them, they shouldn't be in that position. So they have to be answerable to some degree. So no one can have just pure authority over other people and not be challenged. They need to be challenged. And when in the challenging of them, they need to be able to step up and say, this is my thinking, this is where I'm coming from, this is why I did what I did.

And you need to listen to them. And if it it makes sense then that's fine. If it doesn't make sense maybe they're just not giving you the whole truth or maybe you need more information or whatever but I think when people are in charge of other people with great authority I think they have to be very careful about what they do. Otherwise, they need to be explaining it. Yeah. I'm with you. I'd like to go over another one of your feelings.

This is my last minute research that I was doing last night before breakfast this morning. And I'd like to talk about Mount Hayes, Alaska. Okay. That's it. Mount Hayes. I couldn't remember the name of the mountain. Again, I don't know what I'm remote viewing, what I'm remote viewing it. Okay.

It's a totally unknown target to me. The fact that it's been applied to Mount Hayes, I don't have any trouble with. The trouble I might have with it is the interpretation of what I might have with it is what I said the interpretation of what I might have said Is there some form of embedded base in that mountain probably is it well known probably not If you were just try to seek that out in that mountain Would it be a good thing or bad thing? Well, I could go either way, depending on what you find. Is it a specific kind of base?

That's where I start getting into issues over what I say or don't say. I've been targeted on a lot of things. And this is part of the paper I gave it, Lufon. When people target me on like a UFO, they're looking, what they're really looking for is a remote viewing or remote viewer that tells them there's an alien on board this ship and they're from full of godly star system or something. You're not going to get that from remote viewing. What you may get from remote viewing is in this particular, there's an entity on board.

But I don't know what the hell they're doing. You know, well, okay, do you interpret that as an alien? Well, it depends on what it is in actuality or what it is they're doing if you want to make that leap. The problem with all of this is people have certain assumptions going in and if I'm doing a target for them and I give them the raw input that I'm giving them, sometimes they can interpret it their own way and that's what they do. Other times they just keep the parts that support their belief or their theory and they discard the parts that don't support it, that kind of thing. You're saying they manipulate the truth.

that kind of thing. You're saying they manipulate the truth. Well, they manipulate the wrong feeling, certainly. And leave other sections out. What did you experience? What I did experience is I did experience there's some kind of a hidden base in Mount Hayes and there's probably three different directions of getting to it, and there's probably something going on there that we need to know about.

I'm talking about the pregnant we, you know, the media we, the, wouldn't it be interesting to know what's going on there, that kind of we, in terms of it being actually aliens, I wouldn't go so far to say that because I think we're actually aliens, but that gave my reasons for that. I just, I don't know, I'd have to re-review the result to be able to tell you whether or not even buy my own remote fueling. You know, one of the problems with remote fueling is you don't know when you don't know. I don't know if that says much, but there's some things you come up with That you interpret badly that you're wrong about in remote viewing

Well, doesn't sound like you're the only one that remote viewed Mount Hays. No, there's some others too and it may be that I'm just confirming their viewing I don't know it depends on how it was presented to me at the time. Do you remember anything about a small nuclear power plant? Yeah, I do in fact. That's like a 55 gallon drum buried in the ground. Maybe 160 feet down, They just take a tube Drop it in bottom of the tube with two feeder cables coming out and it produces power for

25,000 years or something goes inert and it's buried in the ground 160 feet goes in NERT and it's buried in the ground 160 feet. In fact, I do know I remote viewed one of those once, more than once actually. So that may be one of the ones where I did. And I said, we need these things for housing developments in the middle of nowhere. That would be a great power system for them. Wouldn't need any other infrastructure.

It sounded like you'd also said something along the lines of a on top of a dome. There was an emitter sending large amounts of energy into space. I can't answer that, I don't remember. Do you remember anything about Mount Zeal? No, nothing at all about that. Mount Perdido? Perdido, that's in Spain. Yes, sir.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember saying that Mount Perdido has a lot hidden in it because it's a mount where there's lots of, you know what a white out on a mountain is. I do. When you're on top of a mountain and the clouds come in and if you take one more step, you don't know if it's gonna be a short one Mount Perdido is one of those mountains If you're ever on that mountain, it's like best to be careful because you can get white it out up there

And a heartbeat so there are some things that I think that are hidden about that mountain. I might have talked about that. You know, I honestly, I can't remember this stuff now. It depends on who did the analysis and who put this together. Okay. And I'm trying to be fair here because I honestly don't remember what I said about some of these places and I find it dangerous to consolidate stuff from multiple viewers because some of the viewers might not have been as qualified. I don't know. I just don't know. Do you remember anything about, I'm gonna butcher this name, Mount Nihungani. It's in Africa, right? I believe so.

Yeah. Only that it's part of the Zulu Nation. There's a tribe there that guards it. Guards that mountain. It doesn't like people going up or down the mountain. See, one of the problems here, since we've tweaked the radars on some of the Navy planes, they've been capturing the Tic Tacs. Tic Tacs actually go all the way back to Trinity when they set the bomb off at Trinity in the desert.

That's when the first tic-tac showed up and that was a crash. He was 12 miles away from Trinity, but I was right after the bomb went off at Trinity, the test bomb. at Trinity, the test bomb. Well, they didn't tell people when they detonated that bomb. They didn't tell anybody that it was a nuclear weapon that went off. They told everybody in the area that it was a detonation of a huge ammo dump that the army had been dumping stuff in for years. And then all the dust and crap in the air was from that ammo dump, spontaneously going off. The problem is it spread radioactivity out for like 1200 miles in one direction. It deposited significant radioactive material on top of

something like 1200 branches where they raised cows and sheep and goats and chickens and pigs and all of that. People died prematurely in all those ranches from radiation poisoning. People who ate the animals died of prematurely a radiation poisoning. They never told anybody the truth. And the problem with that is now we have things that are believed about that entire event that may or may not be true. Tic-Tacs are kind of the same problem.

They, they, I talked, I talked with some, to some degree with some people I know that are very much into the UFO field. And some of them say, yes, this in fact happened, that a tic-tac crashed immediately afterwards. Well, it was a couple weeks later after the bomb was detonated. And the radiation might have affected it. And this tic-tac, by virtue of the way it was described, by people who discovered it first, which were kids, long before the army came in and spirited it away. Their descriptions are good descriptions for something that was manufactured, not flown in from another world or flown in from even a place

somewhere out in our solar system. It actually is an object that was manufactured its manufacturer was extremely advanced and the kids who stole Stuff out of the walls of this after it crashed it was like Hair hair like stuff came out of the walls And it tingled when you held it in your hands and If you took it out at night it would go in the dark and it did so it glowed in the dark for like 25 years Because some of these kids that stole parts of this stuff were putting it on their Christmas trees for 25 years because it glowed in the dark. So that's not human manufacture, that's manufactured by somebody else. So it stands

the reason that if tic-tacs are being manufactured somewhere it's probably on this planet because they're not able to travel into the vacuum of space. They're only able to travel high speeds on this planet. It may be that the people who manufacture the tic-tacs live in certain areas on our planet That are unknown to us Because that's what they've done for thousands of years It's our rival that changed everything so

What if These are the actual inhabitants of earth from the very beginning And we're not. We're the aliens. And we've come in and taken over the world. And now all they have to deal with us over is how to convince us that they are something that we're afraid of. Not in reality are they capable of doing anything to anybody. They're harmless, but they were able to avoid us for a long time with their tic-tacs because of the speed,

their ability to change direction, and a 90 degree turn at high speeds, and their ability to go from air to water without making a splash, all that stuff. And so we're now predisposed to think that maybe these aliens or whatever they are have bases on our planet somewhere, only me. These may be the very bases that we're talking about. I think if they do, then they're native to this planet. We're ultimately the invader, we're the ones who came in and just started taking things and taking it. Oh yeah, taking it. You know'll never stop. It's a hard call to make and so some of my suggestions I'm pretty sure have been

slow down, used by remote viewing carefully because you need to interpret it only as far as what it says not implies. And I think a lot of people take my remote viewing and use it as it's implied, not as its actual limit, what it says. And that's an aggravation for me because it's an irritant, actually. It kind of makes me angry. When they leap to a conclusion and come to the conclusion that I said A, so A plus one must be true. I don't know if I'm being clear.

No, I know, I do understand what you're saying. You're basically saying that people are making assumptions based off the information that you're providing to them. Have you ever made your own assumptions off of your own information or have you always had the discipline to just see it for what it is? I try not to do that. It's hard not to, but I still try really hard not to because I had said I'm the only viewer that came out of the remote viewing program and went straight into a lab. I went right into Sari International

and I worked there from around 1985 until it closed in 88. When they let me go in 88, I was hired immediately by Science Applications International Corporation, someone right into that lab. I'm the only viewer that has voluntarily gone into all the labs and been challenged on my viewing and I've done my viewing under maximum controls. One other person did that. The only other person that's ever done that, going into the labs after

they came out of the project, was a young lady named Angela Ford. And Angela Ford, while she was with the unit, was treated extremely badly. Now I have to back this up by saying Angela Ford was a, I don't know, I think she was a GS-14 maybe. She was a GS employee of the government. She was an intelligence analyst in one of the highest positions you can have in the Pentagon as an analyst. And she became a remote viewer. She does her remote viewing with automatic writing. Because of that, because of the fact she was different and a woman in the project under defense intelligence agency. She was called a witch and shoved into a side room

and hardly anything ever done with her stuff. She got out of the project when it shut down in 88, I'm sorry, 1995, 1995, and came straight into the lab. sorry, 1995, 1995, and came straight into the lab and she's done unbelievable stuff in the lab because she's being honored, she's being respected, she's being given the same things I'm being given, and she does extremely well in that. So I have to say that like a lot of her stuff has been misused,

misidentified, unused, ignored, you know, all these things because she wasn't saying things to support what they were looking for. Do you have contact with her? Yes, I do. Do you think she would be interested in doing an interview? Sure, I believe she would. I would love to interview her. Okay, I'll put you together with her.

Thank you. When I get back, I will send her an email, talk to her on the phone, and then give you her address and everything when she gives me permission to do that. Thank you. She's really good. I bring her in on my remote viewing training that I do at the Monroe Institute.

I bring her in for one night to answer questions. She has fun with those those let me tell you. She I'll tell you something she did. First like the first week in the lab they had a US customs agent who took $2 million. It was supposedly earmarked for something. He just stole it and disappeared. So the FBI was really after this guy and he was on a most wanted list and all that sort of thing.

But it was dead a winner when this happened. And so they were absolutely positive since he loved the Bahamas. He's in the islands. He went down there, he probably bought a boat. He's living in the islands. She comes up with the fact he's in, I don't know, the fact he's in, I don't know, West Muldoon, Iowa or something. I can't remember now, it was Wyoming or something like that. So she says, no, no, no, no, no, he's way out in Wyoming or something. Nobody believes her. Everybody. Nobody believes her. Everybody's, every psychic in the unit is talking about the Bahamas,

Yemeni, Nassau, you know, all these places. Because they're picking up on all this stuff. And she's saying, no, no, he's up north. Where all the parks are closed because the snow falls six feet deep. No, no, no, no. He hates the cold. He never go there, not with $2 million in his pocket. So huge argument in tail. And so Defense Intelligence Agency is nervous about all the psychic saying, Palamas, and she's saying, Eastpunk, Iowa or something, Wyoming.

So she gets more specific. They go back to her and say, why do you say that? Well, he's staying in a place that's right behind a Native American burial ground. It's right next to a national park There's like six feet of snow on the ground and he's the only guy in this motel Nobody believes it but just in case the FBI FBI sends a wanted poster out to all the park places in the extreme

northwest that's buried under snow. Park ranger remembers having breakfast with him, the only two people in the entire freaking world eating breakfast together in this drive-up diner And Wyoming or wherever it was so He gets the fax on his machine as soon as he gets to work He turns around he goes back with a state trooper and they arrest the guy. No way. Yeah. And Poe Duncan, I don't know why I'm being a whore to hell was, and they arrest him in this motel

behind which is an Indian burial ground. And it's adjacent to a park. I think she was even more specific about what kind of park. And it's like, she gets no credit at all I think she was even more specific about what kind of park. And it's like she gets no credit at all for it until they're talking about it. The great job the FBI did on the news one night and somebody calls in from the Park Service That's not how it happened

They sent us a wanted poster on him Our guy from the Park Service actually had breakfast with him and got a state trooper and they arrested him and turned him over to the FBI. The FBI had no idea he was here. And the only reason the park service sent out to all wanted, all points wanted bulletin was because she said so. Wow. That all came home to Roost. And so she walked around like the queen bee

for about a week. Good for her. Yeah, good for her. But you gotta, if you talked to her, you gotta talk to her about the missing guy with the bunny. I will. She just kept staying over and over and she gets all this by automatic riding. Wow.

Absolutely brilliant young lady. I would love to have a conversation with her as well. Yeah. You'd enjoy it. She had an identical twin sister and they were both as good as, one was as good as the other. Interesting. And you had a twin. No, she did too.

Identical twin. I didn't have an identical twin. I had a female twin. But her sister was as psychic as she was, but her sister's dead now. And she's retired now, but, and they treated her like crap. And I mean, she was one of the top analysts in the Pentagon.

And she wanted to come into that unit. She, I mean, she volunteered to come into that unit because she knew she had something to offer. And she did, and she still does. And we still use her in the labs. She's that good. I mean, she's really a good person. Well, thank you for sharing that.

Yeah. Well, Joe, we're wrapping up the interview, and I have one more viewing and I want to say that I'm very reluctant to ask this question. Okay. Go ahead and ask it anyway. I couldn't leave here without answering. Today's your 78th birthday. Yeah.

And all its majesty. It is my understanding that you may have remote viewed your own death and that it happens at age 78. I don't know about that, 78. I did have an incident when I went to Vietnam where I thought I saw my imminent death and it turned out to be a huge assumption on my part. It happened exactly but it was an assumption. Okay. So, what I think might be misconstrued here is I had a problem with an infection from one of my hospital surgeries. And I went up to New York. I, this was when I was 72.

I went up to New York because I got my degree. I graduated with a big crowd of young kids. But it was right after I had a back surgery. In my spinal surgery, they had a lot of stables down in my back. One was inverted, it was backwards, and they couldn't get it out. I think somebody was back there messing with it, trying to get it out. And I said, I hope you're wearing gloves so you scrub your hands real good. And she got them walked out and they were sorry. You stole me something.

But anyway, the doctor came out with a pair of gloves on and just took their pliers and jerked it out. So we went ahead up to New York and I graduated the next morning when I woke up. I had a really bad Infection showing on the sheet in the hotel So my lovely wife drove me straight back to the University of Virginia Hospital. And I went into the emergency room. And they couldn't find an open OR.

I was in the emergency room a long time, many, many, many hours, and I was getting weaker and weaker. My body was just wracked with this infection. Turned out it was a stethococcalus aureus or something like that. Anyway, it was just, it was a terrible infection. I was running out of energy. So they wanted me to do an MRI And Well just before the MRI I was getting weaker and weaker and I said

In my mind, I felt like I was standing on a pad of I felt like I was standing on a pad of tiles and they were falling away one at a time and I viewed that as my energy going out and I got to a point where only my feet were standing on tiles and I came to the conclusion that it would just be so easy to step across and not be there anymore. And so I was contemplating this because I was done. And this, I felt this hand grab my arm. It was my wife and she whispered at me. She said, don't you dare leave me. And I went, so I started stealing energy from as many places and people as I could. So they put me in an MRI and halfway through the MRI, I started hallucinating. So I said,

got to get me out of here. And the doctor chided me. He said, I thought you were a tough, old army guy that you could deal with an MRI. And I said, I can normally, but I'm hallucinating. So I know my temperature is about as high as it's going to go. And he said, nevertheless, she should have finished her MRI. So when I came out of the MRI, the nurse came over and rubbed one of those temperature things on my head. And she's turned to the doc. She said, he's not wrong. It's 107. They found an OR room immediately and reopened everything that they had done on my spine and washed it all out with antibiotics and pumped antibiotics into me for months and finally killed all that stuff.

That's probably the closest I've come. Vietnam when I got off the plane when I arrived in Vietnam and I stepped off the C-130, you know, I come off that back ramp When my foot hit the ground I saw myself Dying in a flash of white light. I knew that's it. That's where I'm going to go. And I turn it rocket attack or a mortar, big heavy mortar or maybe a artillery round or

something was going to get me. And I turned around and I told the guy behind me and they just opened up the space. Nobody wanted to be close to me after I told the guy behind me and they just opened up the space. Guy, nobody wanted to be close to me after I told him that. So I go through a whole time in Vietnam and nothing happened. Well, I had a few close ones but, you know, rattled me a little bit, but I didn't die of a, I turned around. So I get ready to leave Vietnam. And I'd also had a vision that I'd be leaving on a right-yield plane called the Canary plane or something.

I said, that's not possible. So I get to the airport and I'm leaving Vietnam and it says, uh, oh, you're flying on one of those new brain of planes. They, you know, they're pastel colors and yours is a canary yellow. It's called a big bird or something. a big bird or something. So I flew out on a canary ovulae. So that came true too. But the explosion didn't. I couldn't figure that out until I had my near-death experience in Austria when I was enveloped in the white light. I went, here it is. I'm in it. I was like, yeah, I saw that coming in Vietnam. I misinterpreted it. Okay. Okay.

The only thing I might have said that would have brought that out of someone would be at some of my talks when people say, well how long do you plan on doing this or how long do you plan on being here or whatever that sort of thing. Sometimes my comment is, who knows, I could go going home. I Get dealt by somebody going home Or I could just drop dead right in front of you And they all get a laugh out of that but they're not sure if I'm telling the truth or not And it doesn't matter No, that matters And it doesn't matter. No, that matters.

The fact of the matter is I've come so close to death so many times that I reached the point where my understanding is I'm still here simply because I'm not through doing whatever I'm doing. So that may be interpreted as when I'm saying I'm quitting the remote viewing work as, well, now he's done. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying I'm not doing remote viewing anymore. I'll teach remote viewing at the Monro Institute as long as they'll have me, or I give talks

there anytime they want them. Or I do webinars for them. Anything that supports that place I'll do until they're throwing dirt on my face in the ground, because that's how I feel about it. And a lot of that may be misinterpreted by some who think, oh my God, he's gonna die on us. No, usually what I tell them is if I drop dead in the next two minutes, it's not important.

What's important is that I, that happens while I'm doing something I like to do. Then it's okay. If I was doing something I hated with a passion and it happened, oh god, what a waste that would have been. You know, that kind of thing. I don't worry about that stuff anymore. When you're 78, don't give a shit, it's okay. I just want to enjoy what I do. Yeah. I just, somebody enjoy what I do. Yeah. I just,

somebody had told me that and we have rescheduled. And when I found out that the rescheduled date was on your 78th birthday. You thought? I was like, whoa. Whoa, yeah. Whoa. What if he like just goes to sleep in the chair?

Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? But, um... Well, that would be something cool to catch. I mean... I would rather that not happen, Joe. But, um... Do you fear death at all? No.

I have absolutely no fear of death. Never have, actually, since my near death experience. What do you think happens? What I think happens, it's like I have no absolute belief in heaven or hell. I think we just progress into a new form of what we are. And I think the real surprise, what heaven in hell is, I've given a lot of thought to this. If when you're dead, you find out that all the people you lived and interacted with are all part of you. The reason that would be a good thing is because if we, if we as entities

learn by experience, there's no way knowing if the experience is valid or not, if all we're getting is our perception of it. The only way you can know if experience was valid and had something beneficial generated by it would be if we were not only the person in the experience, but all persons in the experience. In other words, we would have to have every perspective of all the people we care about that were part of in that experience. So in death, I would welcome the fact of knowing that all the people I was heavily engaged with my entire life were all just extensions of me.

That's the only way of getting every perspective of every action you've ever taken would be to have the perceptions of all those you care most for, are you care about, are you part of, are your family with, Or you worked with? Or all of that? And I think that's true. I think that's what we find out. That's the big surprise at death. Everything we experienced has been perceived and we get all of those perceived experiences from everybody that we've ever been part of.

So in a holistic sense, we're not just us or all the people we've lived with and cared about. So I cannot imagine a worst hell in the treat people like shit your whole life. And to find out all the damage you did and not be able to rectify that, to feel their pain,

everything, all the pain and all the bad experience and all the frustration and upset that you've given the sickness that you've delivered to them, not be able to fix it and know that it was just the major part of you. I think that's all on whatever. And not so much the other. I think heaven is knowing that you did everything you possibly could to soften the impact of life on the people you care about. The people that are important to you in your entire lifetime. So people have a way of making up for their failures by realizing that and understanding that it's not just them, it's everybody they're in contact with. When they do something to themselves to denigrate themselves

They're doing it to all the people who care about them They're all part of the same you're all part of the same person the same entity one ecosystem. Yeah It's a learning system. And I think it's the only way to really learn is to know all the perceptions that people who cared about you had when you did A or B or C. The only way to learn from it is to know what was wrong about it, what was right about it, The only way to learn from it is to know what was wrong about it, what was right about it, how it affected people that were observing it. I think that's true learning. And that may be a design.

I don't think it's a flaw. I think it's a design in the reality of which we all part of something larger and you can call it God or whatever you want, but it's something much larger and it deals with all possibilities. I mean there's lots of people that exist, I say people, there's lots of people that exist. I say people, there's lots of entities that exist across the cosmos. What if all that's true? We think very little of ourselves as we act the way we are versus being better at it or greater at it or I don't know. Pay attention.

That's some deep thought. And that's the first time I've ever heard that and that makes a hell of a lot of sense. Well, it makes sense to me. Thank you. Anyway, welcome. I mean just that segment alone is motivation for people to do the right thing. The one would hope so. There are still those that think that's better, more power is better, and why do I want to get involved in that foolishness? Well, they'll find out.

I think that's how hell to pay. That's what it is later. Wow. Well, Joe, I just want to say thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for coming on and sharing everything that you've shared. And is the Monroe Institute, is that open enrollment? Can anybody sign up?

Oh, anybody can sign up. You can come anytime you want. Take a gateway. I hope you're ready. There's come anytime you want. Take a gateway. I hope you're ready. There's gonna be a lot of people coming. Take a gateway. And I won't even acknowledge your presence when I see you.

I'll just go, who the hell are you? Don't I know you're from somewhere? Ha ha ha. You'll have a great time. I guarantee it. I would love to come. And you'll learn a lot about yourself. I would love that too. And other people learn a lot about yourself. I would love that too.

And other people that you never thought you would get along with. Well, I hope to see you there. Okay. Thank you. You will, I'll be around. Perfect, but I will link the Monroe Institute in the description and once again, uh once again Joe it's just

it was I don't say this lightly um it's an honor to have you here and to get to know you and to hear about your experiences as you've yeah experienced life and and um just thank you you're. And your lovely wife too. Oh yeah. It was amazing to meet her. Totally for her. I wouldn't be in this if I, I'd be long gone I think actually. Be hard to deal with life without her.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I'd volunteer for that one-way mission. You know, I once asked her if I could write a letter to NASA and volunteer for the Mars mission. No, listen, I have enough, I have enough artificial body now that I'd probably survive on Mars. This should kill me for saying that. Well, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome.

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