Small Town Murder - #149 - Brutality, Karma & Cold-blooded Stupid in Stillwater, New York

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

This week, in Stillwater, New York, a lone shoe, protruding from the snow is quite the tip of the iceberg, as a brutal scenario is played out. The question is, who will take the blame? Just when all seems wrapped up, the whole thing takes a massive left turn, and gives us an ending that no one saw coming, but no one is exactly upset about! One of our craziest, yet!! Along the way, we find out that you didn't have to be tough to command a red coat army, that "very sophisticated" is a very subjective term, and that even forensics are only as good as the people performing the tests!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week, we look at Stillwater, New York, where murder and karma come together to make a really weird story. Welcome to Small Town hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay yay indeed jimmy yay indeed my name

is james petra gallo i'm here with my co-host i'm jimmy wissman thank you folks so much for joining us today on another wild crazy insane pan insane, panhandly edition of Small Town Murder. Twisty one. Twisty. This one, guys, we're telling you right now. We've said it before and we never lie when we say this. Do not turn this off until it's completely over. Until we're like, that is, I promise you, the end of the story.

What that bang was, by the way, was, thank you everybody. The one episode a few episodes ago where there was 107 dildos someone has sent us a dildo that we do not want but so we stuck it up on top of a shelf and it just fell over so that's what that was that's why we don't want them this that's why we don't want to crash all over this we don't need yeah we have one and it's attacking us forget about it it's already a problem in interrupting the show. So with that said, do not turn this episode off. We also have to thank everyone this week for all of your, everything you've done for us. Your reviews, Apple Podcasts, that purple icon.

They help a lot. We don't know why. We have no idea why. But that funky algorithm, it eats reviews. It eats reviews to survive. You have to feed it reviews. Yeah, because we have one to give it. So, unfortunately, it does not.

So they help a lot. Thank you very much for those. Also on Stitcher, they help a lot as well. They do. Head over more than ever now to shutupandgivememurder.com for all of your small-town murder, all of your crime and sports needs as well. Listen to Crime and Sports if you haven't. If you like a murder story, this week is for you.

Check out Crime and Sports if you haven't. If you like a murder story, this week is for you. Check out Crime and Sports there. But most of all, because tickets are going on sale. My goodness, they're going on sale. If you're listening today, the day it comes out on Thursday, this is pre-sale day. So you can get your tickets at 10 a.m. Whatever your local time is, your tickets will go on sale at 10 a.m. there. And head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMder.com or at murdersmall on Twitter, at smalltownpod on Facebook, at smalltownmurder on Instagram to get the promo code. There you go.

So you can get in there and get those pre-sale tickets. Regular on-sale tickets go on sale Friday, tomorrow, December the 13th. So those are on sale. So if you try to go on the 12th and it says sold out that's just the pre-sale amount they release a little bit for a pre-sale VIPs and stuff like that

so you can get those tickets there full slate and at the end of the show after the crazy twisty ending of the show we'll give you the full rundown of dates of where we are

we gave you the cities last time we're going to give you the dates of when we're actually going to be there and locations and all that sort of thing so you can get that at the end of the show and that is a good time there.

Also want to thank everybody for everything, your donations this week and we will praise you at the end of the show with our list of producers that will scream from the rooftops about how wonderful you are. Thank you everybody and if you want to become one of these wonderful producers, it's very easy to do.

You can do that over at patreon.com slash crime in sports or head over to paypal and use our email address crime in sports at gmail.com and every damn dime is appreciated as always we are blown away by everything everybody does so thank you so much and thank you to everybody that came out on the 2019 tour we just wrapped that up in chicago with just a great show there. Those guys, we love Chicago. We really do. Milwaukee was a lot of fun too. And Chicago, that was our fourth time there. So that was our original test city

to do a first live show. And we've stuck with them. Was that our fourth time or fourth show? Fourth time there. No kidding? It was our fourth time in the city, yes. We did five shows. Wow.

We've done five shows and four trips to the wonderful, windy city. Lincoln Hall, the Vic, Athenaeum. And Park West. And Park West. Holy shit. Four different venues. They're all great.

We love everything. Every venue's been good in Chicago. Yeah. And that's how awesome Chicago is. We haven't had a bad experience yet. We love it. And we'll be back there next year. We haven't had a show there.

We'll find out when at the end of the show. Right. We haven't had a show there that wasn't sold out. Absolutely not. Chicago, you are so good to us. They're the best to us. Thank you so much chicago and uh we have to do the disclaimer quickly this is a comedy show of course we are comedians the comedy podcast we're gonna make jokes that's the thing murders will happen people will die it's called small town murder try to keep

the jokes in the realm of small towns idiots in the story murderers things like that we go out of our way we try not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families because we're assholes. Right. But we're not scumbags. There you go. That's how we work this thing. So if you don't think that's okay, if you think that murder and jokes and they should never even be in the same realm, I don't know what wonderful angelic planet you dropped

off of, but you know what? Good for you. Good for you good for you keep yourself all all wrapped up in in your tissue paper and you should that's great i'm good for you your psyche is pure and we're we're happy for you uh but there you go you can have a good one bad first date that angelic planet have a good one and unsubscribe but for everybody else that wants to just have a good time and hear a crazy story i think it's time yeah i think it's time to sit back yes wait and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this i cannot wait let's go on a trip all right what do you say down in florida last week it was weird muggy yeah nasty mucky mucky

mucky muggy we were too that was like rural people were saying to they people are sending us messages going i've lived in orlando my entire life and i didn't know that place existed and it's 40 minutes from me and it's a complete shithole like they were they were saying that's how terrible it is that we it's right there and we don't even notice it so that's a that's a bad sign so we're gonna head up this time up to new york we'll make fun of new York, which I always have a special, just a special, you know, extra gusto for mocking my home state. Yeah, I love it.

I love it. So that's why anybody gets mad if we piss on wherever you're from. Don't because I take no more joy in anything than in making fun of where I'm from. Trust me. It just, it tickles me

as I hope it tickles you when we pick on you. Let's head to New York. We're going to Stillwater, New York. This is up the Hudson River. You start at New York City and go straight. That's the Hudson River. There's a line that kind of goes straight up there, kind of along the border, parallel to it, all the way to Canada there.

That is the Hudson River. This is off the Hudson River near Albany, which is upstate New York, a couple hours from the city. Where disease is bred. Oh, still water. That's what you want. Mosquitoes. Muck. More muck.

Out of the muck and into the muck. Here we are. This place, it's upstate New York. It's in the northeastern part of the state. It's close to Canada, way closer to Canada than New York City. Put it that way. That's the thing people don't recognize about New York. We might have touched on this a little bit when we did our first new york episode

but since then we've only done i think one on long island and we so we've we've kind of been we've been more in the in kind of populated new york or whatever but like upstate new york people think of new york they think new york city But like Western New York and far upstate New York, that's West Virginia. That's what it is. That, Western Pennsylvania, kind of the mountains are there, Scranton. That's all West Virginia, New York, and Pennsylvania. Anyone from anywhere civilized goes, oh, yeah, you don't want to go over there. So that's what you have to understand.

Those mountain people. Yeah, right away. This isn't mountain people, but it's still up there. If you'll live right near albany you got to question your sanity you know what i mean and that's what it comes down to if you live in a terrible place you have to question someone's sanity for not leaving they're free to leave at any but there's no doing this there's no fence around it you know so we go certain places and we're like there is no fence around omaha guys it's just wide open. You could fucking walk hundreds of miles away from here. You could walk to Denver from here.

I can almost see it. You know, just keep walking. Go ahead, because it's going to get better if you keep going that way. Or the other way. Just get out of here. This is the bad spot. You know it's bad when you say, why do you live here? And everyone goes, it's pretty cheap.

You go, yeah, that means it sucks. No one else wants it. That's a good thing. So this is up in Saratoga County up there. It is about three hours and five minutes down to New York City. It's a distance. Yeah, it's a distance. It's all the way down the river.

It's about four and a half hours if you want to make a lateral movement figuratively and geographically. Geographically. I like that word better. Iically geographically i like that word i think geographically is a better word i think we just we just coined a thing geographically wow that's v with a v geographically that's very funny perfect so uh yes both spiritually and geographically a parallel movement or you can go three hours and five minutes to boston as well so it's kind of it's So, yes, both spiritually and geographically, a parallel movement. Or you can go three hours and five minutes to Boston as well.

So it's in between everything. It's at the top of that. You can see those. Equal distance from New York to Boston. To Boston, yeah, pretty much. So that's how that works. Zip code 12170. Area code 518.

It's a big area around here. There's still some bigger properties and things like that. It's about 43 square miles yeah which is a it's a lot up there but new york state uh upstate new york one thing they're not hurting for is just land there's a shitload of it if you just drive out there you're just like there's nothing in fuck dude new york is so open and it's the city needs so much more if you look at at the city, you're like, wow, it's so crowded. It's because there's nothing else there. It's all just like, it's all drifted down to the bottom and sifted to there. Everybody's inhabiting the most inhabitable.

Oh, yeah, it's freezing cold. Yeah. If you drive to the Baseball Hall of Fame from anywhere, Cooperstown's in the middle of nowhere. It's not like you hear Cooperstown, New York. Oh, it must be outside the city or on long island or something nope no it is in the fucking middle of nowhere it's like four hours like from where i was from south of poughkeepsie it's like four hours i don't even know feels like some genius probably that uh lives in cooperstown was like you know what we could use something to get people yeah and that's it and it's still one street and

a hall of fame and three pizza places and a bunch of memorabilia stores and that's it and it's still one street and a hall of fame and three pizza places and a bunch of memorabilia stores and that's the whole town it's like canton ohio friggin weird man it's a weird place but the hall of fame's awesome uh has nothing to do with still water though um motto of this town turning point of the american revolution okay that's pretty yeah taking a lot of credit there i suppose i don't even know we were losing at one point we were yeah not obviously a bunch of farmers in there yeah not even in uniforms you think they dominated from the start launched a shock and awe campaign of pelting the british with vegetables i don't know i don't know if you if you paid attention to history class which i didn't uh oh yeah that's the problem it seemed like they were uh just telling us that we just throttled them the whole time that was it was a buzzer to buzzer yeah yeah from coin flip to

fucking shotgun right from the tip off man we took it in for a layup and it was all business from then on never lost the lead it was a game five where we were behind for a minute we'll talk about battle of saratoga that's where it comes from i found an alternate this is like the underground yeah um motto that the people know it but it's not advertised okay you know what i'm saying because it's not that not that a little more pride in this well no this is just this is the real thing this is the straight dope as opposed to the other bullshit this is like on the sly yeah okay man and it is quote you're almost to canada a little further. Yeah. You can make it.

So yeah, that's better. Free healthcare. It's right there. It's freezing here anyway. Just go another hour. What's the difference at this point?

Cross that big water. Yeah. History here. They're obsessed with this. They have this block house and you go, what's a block house? Exactly what it sounds like.

A block. That's a house. Oh, picture a square block made of railroad ties. So everything is very square. Very square. And it is a square house. Symmetrical.

Blockhouse. Everywhere. That's all it is. Very proud of this. It's not even in the original blockhouse that they have in town. It's a replica. Wait. Yeah, okay.

A guy named Peter Shiler in 1709 built fort inglesby in town and then they ended up making a replica of that fort which is the blockhouse and we're proud of this and they put it in the middle of town and that's where they hold all their events wow they have like a you know a concert on the fourth of july it's going to be in the yard of the blockhouse jesus and the it's not even huge like you think it must be. It's like the size of a regular two-story house, maybe a little less wide and just square, like a Lego. Like, you made it from Legos. It's super weird. Let's all just place all of our pride in this shit.

That's, oh, my God. And it's a replica. It's not even the real one. It's not even the real one. They just went, well, we got railroad ties. We can just do that. If we leveled the White House and built a replica nobody's going now especially if nobody lives in that that's what i'm saying you know what i love about making fun

of upstate new york yeah i can do both my guinea accent and my hillbilly accent at the same time it works either way it's fucking perfect i love upstate new york for this very reason so uh yeah the uh a lot of participants of the revolutionary war in this town because it was happening around here so it's kind of like a big like a one of those cat brawls on heathcliff or just rolling a big thing is rolling dust and whatever's in its way is going to get caught up in it and they're going to be you know you know it works so that's what happened here uh battle of saratoga or the battlesles of Saratoga took place on September 19th and October 7th, 1777. It took a couple of weeks off.

It was two battles. It took one then and they were like, you know what? It's late spring. It's late. It's late summer. We're having a nice, you know, it's a nice one of those nice late summers. Real close. We don't know who to get the gay raid bath to. It's been in in the early 70s what do you say we all just relax and enjoy this for a

while and then once the weather breaks we'll start fighting again but for now i mean it's yeah these sunsets are gorgeous halftime it's halftime right big tea yeah let's put up the tea what do you say here everybody go to the blockhouse for some slush puppies and it's going to be beautiful snow cones and slush puppies. Let's sit around with the sparklers and let it fly. I kind of like that. Why not? You can fight during the day, and then afterwards, let's go.

Yeah, everybody just hang out together. So that's how it didn't work. So yeah, it was their general. British general was John Burgoyne. Burgoyne? I don't know how the hell you say that. Burgoyne. I'm going gonna go with bergoin uh this guy here was a british army officer and dramatist oh so you let your playwrights lead army i wonder why they lost that's weird you see his picture he's he has like

he's wearing like six doilies he's got a doily on each wrist a doily around his neck yeah he doesn't look like a guy that you'd be scared of basically no it looks like he he looks like a dramatist like he had the best the best costumed outfit probably everyone was very well put together theatrical everything was perfect boots and cuffs it sounds like uh an arguing ex-wife it's the same thing make it making drama yeah they'll always lose lines up in front of them okay we're looking wonderful and sweep and just sends them all into battle they're like okay we're running this way and uh shockingly they lost that fight as a matter of fact here uh so yeah he found himself trapped by superior american

forces with no relief and you're not gonna lie i kind of liked it he's into it he's like these these brutes are bearing down on me and i'm not against it i'm gonna be honest with you i'm uh a little turned on i'm not gonna lie um you know i mean we'll see how it goes after this but for right now it's the tension's pretty yeah you know whatever so uh he see how it goes after this. But for right now, it's the tensions pretty. Yeah. You know, whatever. So he's into it. So, yeah, this was the great turning point of the American war is what they say, because this this battle turned it around to make other foreign powers recognize that the U.S. wasn't fucking around.

Oh, is that right? Before that? Yeah. They were just, oh, Britain's little colony is revolting, whatever. oh is that right before that yeah they were just oh britain's little colony is revolting whatever and then once we started we won a huge battle like this they went that might be a country that we should maybe be friends with maybe we should start looking at maybe we should be on their side maybe we can fuck the british over and get on their side and you know so that's how it started working and that came that was big time helpful for us there uh so yeah he uh yeah this was two small battles like we said and and that's how it works.

They ended up working it all out. Apparently, they have a lot of they're into the historical thing in this town. They keep a lot of the Victorian houses and shit like that. They have a library that's in the that's I'm sorry. The Stillwater United Church is on the National Register of Historic Places. The church is. The church is, yeah. In 1824, there was more sheep than people.

That's interesting. So you can read into that, whatever you like here. I don't know. In 1860, they produced local farms, produced 102,000 pounds of butter. In what year? 1860. It seems like a lot. Pre-Civil War.

That seems like a lot of butter, but I'm not sure. What do you do with that but I'm not sure. What do you do with that? I don't know. From two Paula Deen episodes. Yeah, I was going to say Guy Fieri and just that. And like what? I don't know. Three stops.

I feel like he's got that in the system. That's his breakfast. Running through his system. He drops that in the toilet in the morning. 102,000 pounds of butter. It's called dropping a little guy. It's even golden like his hair. Leaving a guy behind. It's got a golden top to it even because it's so dropping a little guy it's even golden like his hair leaving a guy behind it's got a golden top to it even because it's so much butter jesus christ spiky golden spiky golden guy fieri

turd spiky golden guy fieri butter turd butter turd butter turd thank you i don't know what i was thinking there the butter turd business it's so gross it's disgusting it's absolutely disgusting hope you're not eating breakfast or lunch and if you are you know what you're kind of interested still you're like it's not bad yeah so 1875 by then there was a lot of fires as the late 1800s is as we've talked it's just all everything was on fire constantly they made everything out of wood every everything was heated with open flames and like fucking it was a bad everything's heated with open flames and then everything's made with open flames and coal and and you know everything's embers everywhere smelt it's just fire so in 1875 they got a hand-operated fire

engine which is it's just this big tank with tubes and shit coming off it that there's a picture of a 90-year-old man standing next to it, who I assume was the first sexy fireman. He's got to run a crank to operate this thing? Well, back then, the only problem was the whole calendar was just him. It was just like, eh. He's kind of hunched over. He's like, I'm going to straighten out for this one. He was like 100, this guy. Different poses of him being exhausted from operating yeah jesus a picture of his calluses on his hands just terrible tennis elbow and back shoulder yeah yeah yeah absolutely

fuck uh notable people from here we have abigail fillmore yeah was maybe born here they're not sure they're guessing nobody else is claiming her who the fuck knows i guess you know what was it i mean who's gonna who's gonna argue with that who he's she's the wife of millard fillmore president millard fillmore but that's so like the wife of millard fillmore who's like a third tier president anyway i think you could probably claim fillmore's wife uh Pierce's wife, maybe Polk's wife. Yeah. Nobody knows what they look like.

He didn't have one. Oh, he didn't? No. James Buchanan was gay as shit. What? Oh, well, that would explain. James Buchanan was super gay. That's fine and all.

But his his niece was his, quote, White House social director. So he just said, like, yeah, he's he's gay as shit. James Buchanan, which that's fine. I don't give a shit. But it's just interesting that people are, you Which, that's fine. I don't give a shit. Not a handsome guy. It's just interesting that people are, you know, make a big deal out of people's, any sort of sexual dalliances and things like that. And they're like, maybe Lincoln was gay.

Maybe this one was gay. It's like, doesn't even, if you kind of was gay before any of those people. Long before. And I'm sure someone else was gay before that. So don't worry about it. Yeah. Statistically, it had to be. Someone's, yeah.

Someone's in there as gay. We have 45 of these dicks. Didn't's in there you know what didn't matter did it you didn't know about it did you didn't change a thing he wasn't fucking anybody on the white house lawn hey watch this you guys voted for it right across the potomac motherfucker that's not no one said that that never happened didn't matter didn't matter one fucking bit either way there's railing dudes in arlington that's all it is i i have a resident review of this place now uh it's it's succinct we'll say that uh it is quote hi that's polite yeah hi this place is outstandingly awful it's a good that's the whole review one star it's a damn good start to an excellent letter. It is. With examples and all that shit. Well, it's an opener.

Then he stops. If he stops, highest place, let me tell you why. And then run it. But he just says, that's all you need to know. Just stay away. Not even worth my time. You need examples? There wasn't even punctuation between high and this.

It was just, hi, this place is outstandingly awful. All in one. Not even capital letters. Is there a period? This place isn't worth shifting for. I won't press shifting for i won't press shift for this fucking place i will not yeah people in this town population 8 585 which is up 19 since 1990 that's just since new york city got expensive and people started people fled upstate

that's how and boston too if it's three hours from there people fled inland that's how it works so uh median age here's about 43 and a half which is a little older it's usually 37 and a half all the young demos are low all the old demographics are high not as many kids shitload old people all right that's how it works here people stay here for some odd reason and uh the people here are settled down yeah it's a settled down kind of place they live here they work in albany which is close by the capital of new york so there's a lot of jobs there there's 65 of the people here are married it's normally 50 50 so yeah it's a very not a real party town i would say if you want to put it that way only six percent are married with no children so that's that uh jesus race of this town 94 white well that's it's a pretty white yeah that's uh yeah

1.5 black uh one percent asian yeah two percent hispanic so that's a that's white yeah uh yeah you could go hard on it that's what i'm saying like basically if you put it all into a computer program and got a composite of the average citizen it's just wilford brimley standing there with a with a spoonful of quaker oats in one hand and a liberty medical package in the other that's all it is absolutely just that uh religion in this town about 40 percent are religious so that's a little lower than normal it's usually 50 50 but you're still gonna get your upstate new york 25 catholic yeah as we know catholics are the baptists of the north as we uh all know they're uh 0.4 jewish so not even a lot of jewish people up there that's surprising for new york yeah for new yeah like it's interesting yeah so it's like i guess that

uh this gets filtered less and less as the north more northward you Does the eyes get closer together? Yeah. They're like, I don't think so. Back to Long Island, I think. Back to Long Island? Yeah, back to Massapequa. This is ridiculous. These people are fucking inbred. So 44% in this county, 44% Democrat, 47% Republican,

7.5% Independent in the last election. It's close to Vermont, so there's a little more independent streak if you live up here in the woods. Unemployment here, usually right now it's a little under 4%. It's about average here. Same thing, a little under 4%. Median household income, though, usual in the United States,

median income is $57,000. Here it's almost $79,000. Wow. So a few extra bucks. Cost of living, $100,000 is regular, average. Here it's $106,000. So. So a few extra bucks. Yeah. Cost of living, 100 is regular, you know, average. Here it's 106. Okay. So not that much higher.

Median home cost is $225,000. So that's not terrible for New York. It's not nuts. It's way the fuck up there, but still, it's not the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. It's definitely affordable with $76,000 median. That's what I mean. So that median and you're okay there. And if we've convinced you, damn it, there's nowhere else that you can go but upstate New York.

We have for you the Stillwater, New York Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here, I found, is about $1,390, which is a little over the national average. We're kind of on pace with the market for there. I found a three-bedroom, one-bath. This place is a shithole. 1,463 square feet. This is from the listing. This is a great investment property.

Need some TLC. That's an understatement. It is a disaster. Half of it's missing. $84,900 though, so, you know, it's cheap. I found a three-bedroom, two-bath 1,574 square foot. They say in the listing, cute as a

button, wood floors throughout. That's about the only feature that you want to talk about. It also has droopy ceiling fans. Great. You know, like the hanging droopy, the sad ones where you want to talk about. It also has droopy ceiling fans. Great. Like the hanging droopy. The sad ones. The sad ones where you go, bad things have happened here. Ceiling fans droop when bad things happen.

Either it's been really hot or really wet in here. Not good. $139,950 there. Then I found this big, it's an equestrian property. 43 acres here four bedroom four bath 3200 square feet 1.29 million dollars so will pricey yeah you've made a million dollars and you're gonna move there well i guess if you're really into horses and you want to like you know have a 45 acres 45 acres capital district some kind of state lobbyist maybe

oh there you go some sort of maybe i have no idea passing laws for for some also this is a weekend thing anything within three four hours of new york city yeah is weekend shit for rich new yorkers people with hedge fund managers and shit they have giant places out on long island upstate over here westchester that's and where they spend their weekends and summers and shit people recognize you there as king shit yeah you send your you send your wife you send your wife or really mostly just your nanny and your kids up there for the summer you know ride the horses and fuck around yeah you know you visit once in a while run this town yeah that's how it is the biggest house there

so things to do in this town we found i found the blockhouse independence day celebration where they will have a reading of the declaration of independence by the 13th regiment of the albany militia which sounds that sounds uh a little frightening that's the word i'm looking for yeah i believe uh there are 13 of those uh apparently so 13th hopefully it's people pretending to like dress up and be they They have period garb. Hopefully they're like 1770s garb, like Battle of Saratoga. Hopefully it's not like guys like, this is the 13th Albany Militia, goddammit. We're going to declare our independence.

You don't want that. You want a sleeveless ACDC shirt? Yeah, you want people with bad sort of old-timey British accents and a wig on, trying to dress like an old farmer that wears patent leather shoes and high socks. There you go. One of those here. So I also found the summer concert series, which is exciting. They got a summer concert.

Oh, yeah. Series. Mostly at the blockhouse. There will be a little bit at the American Legion post 490, though, because we can't leave that out of it, of course. But at the blockhouse, they have one night. This was on August 9th. This has passed by already this year. I apologize.

But August 9th, they had the legend Al Bruno. Al fucking Bruno. The legend. The legend ellipses Al Bruno is how they put it right here. Performing at the Blockhouse. Rain or shine, because all legends perform in the rain. He's a goddamn rock star. you got to see this guy he i looked up his website right and it says it he made it in 1997 hasn't touched it since it's obvious it says quote welcome to the web page of al bruno which is pretty the web page the web page of al bruno

i had a kid design it for me nice to see you he doesn't say that but it says al is an entertainer in the capital district albany there he has been performing for the last 25 years before singing solo he was the lead singer in the blue light special band fuck yeah al you gotta see him though he's one of these smooth olive oily fucking old guineas he looks like yeah he's he'll go he'll hit on a 19 year old girl with not a not a touch of trepidation whatsoever. He'll just think, this works. He'll go after grandma. He'll go after grandma, ma, both of them at the same time.

Hey, if I can't get granddaughter, I think I could probably get ma and grandma at the same time. You know what I'm saying? Give you an elbow. Oh, he's got hair. He looks like he's like Go-Bot Frankie Avalon. Hell yeah. That's what he is. Knock off Frankie Avalon.

He's got this hair. He's got this,Bot Frankie Avalon. Hell yeah. That's what he is. Knock off Frankie Avalon. He's got this hair. He's got this sparkly shirt. It's like a pirate shirt sprayed in red sparkly, it looks like. It's crazy. Chest open? Yeah, so I had to do me.

I'm curious about shit. So I did a little bit of research. I found out, strange fact, when Al Bruno does a concert in a town, that town's pregnancy rate goes up 200 he's a fucking animal watch out for al bruno did they say the ages is a teenage pregnancy it doesn't matter all ages all he's it was record setting he'll knock grandma up he doesn't care i don't care if you went through menopause 40 years ago sweetheart

i'm gonna put one in you and you're like wow it's once al bruno says he's gonna quote put one in you it's you're as good as having one in you let's just put it that way he's impregnated men jimmy it doesn't matter he's virile does that change uh geographizationally maybe it's possible all sorts of geographical as a nations i think i made a better word so crime rate okay in this town what we're interested in here uh property crime is uh is about is under one-third of the national average so it's very very low yeah and violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is about one quarter of the national average. Super safe place. It's a safe little family place where old people live and people with families. And it's quiet and it's not a lot of eventful shit going on.

It's people that, you know, they work 40 minutes away or whatever. They live here. Quiet, nice place. So that said, let's talk about a murder. Okay. I think that's what you have to do in a nice, quiet place. Destroy it. It has happened here. Oh, it's happened and uh this was a particularly interesting one and uh we'll start we're going to start back on february 18th of the year 2000 okay so we're

gonna go back in time a little bit here it's almost 20 years now that's wow we are two months away from this being 20 years ago which we are two years away from the 20th anniversary of 9-11 yeah that's what i mean this is insane so isn't that weird that's bananas it doesn't seem as long because everything's the same kind of there was the internet then there's the internet now right when i when we were like in 1990 1970 seemed like oh forever ago because like the pictures were still sort of not even all that great color different size things but i mean like they show a picture and it didn't have the right coloring it was like from a different time hue to it looks sort of black and whitish still moreover like the the 70s picture had rounded edges like in the 80s they were like square yeah rectangle yeah they were so much

bigger looking at that picture from the 70s being that weird orange hue and the round edges you're just like what the fuck camera took that you look at that and go richard nixon was the president that's crazy look at that guy really wow like that's fucking insane people like what a weird but you look at a picture today from 2001 and it looks the same as it looks exactly yeah everything looks exactly the same it is it's pretty much the same thing the video's a little sharper is all it is but still you know people with the same shit in the internet but if you look at the fashion like you look at the pictures of the women and men running from the yeah which is a shit horrible they're just a little baggier yeah it's a it's a strange thing though it's it's the clothes are

exactly the same slightly baggier that's all we've done different we've tightened shit up slightly in 20 years. There's been no change in fashion. It really hasn't. Everyone's hair. A haircut from 2000. Just look at a normal dude's haircut. It's the same one now.

Same as today. Same exact now. Whereas like 1980 to 2000, completely different. Holy shit. Completely different. This will be 1700. That's what I mean. You might as well have a wig on.

A giant white wig with fucking curly things and shit. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one

and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Crazy.

So let's talk about this. So February 18, 2000, though, it's a cold day. It is cold up here in this part of the area here. Because like I said, I'm from a little less than an hour from New York City up north of that. And this is two hours north of me. That's cold. You don't want to go up there. Anything north of me, I always say, is like, that's too cold.

That's when shit gets crazy. Because we're in a valley, and then it goes up, and then it gets cold. So it's no good. So it's a a cold day it's starting to snow out getting toward the evening there's two police officers walking around there's a state police officer and a town police officer and they're both checking this out they want to check this location out before it gets dark because they know it's supposed to snow heavy that night and they're looking for something specific that they might not find. They got a tip?

If there's snow on the ground. Well, we'll talk about how they got there in a little while. But they're walking around, and this is where they call. This is one of those things where we always say, like, oh, there's a lot of money wasted in the system here and there, obviously. You know, there's always things that could be tightened up. You can cut some corners. Cut some corners cut some corners well one of the things i think maybe could be cut a little corner a little bit on the corners is uh police officers very specific uh descriptions of everything yeah when it's common sense we don't need a whole this is from

directly from the police report this is just where they were never mind what they found quote a combination of both fields and wooded areas with a stream you know the woods like the woods you mean right if some if he said we were in the woods you'd go oh yeah a combination of both fielded and woody wooded areas with a stream right yeah i get that it's the woods you picture i've seen bambi do you not picture exactly that when you hear the woods that's why we have the word the woods so you don't have to say all those fucking words. If you said vast, empty area with sand and some brush, the desert. You know, like the desert.

Yeah, exactly. Beige. You're done with the descriptors. We get it. That's what I mean. It's too much. So I understand that's what they have to do, but maybe we can make them not have to do it. We can put that down from the top.

Hey, guys, if you're in the woods, just say you're in the woods. A big sandbar-ish area where waves and water meet. You mean the beach? The beach. Like an estuary between the land and the water, kind of, like where they come together. Where families like to go and spend the afternoon. Umbrellas and things like that. Umbrellas and children and balls.

Big inflatable ones. Beach balls. Beach balls. Is there a court in the land that would not understand the term woods? No. Where were they? Case dismissed. Far too vague.

Case dismissed. we don't know where they were dare you waste our time with this yeah i don't think that's ever gonna fucking happen it's ridiculous so about a hundred yards from the road they find something they find uh what they were looking for they find a part of a sneaker protruding from the snow now this is about a hundred yards from the road so you're not expecting this was like if it was right next to the road you think maybe some kid you know ripped it off his friend fucking around threw it out the window now you're never gonna find it it's in the snow 100 yards away 100 yards away i don't know if you know warren moon was in the car and put one deep yeah i put one deep on us i don't know i fade warren moon i could picture him driving around up

here super rare sneaker they're looking for? It's just a sneaker protruding out of the snow. The problem with the sneaker is it's not just like someone lost their sneaker. No. There happens to be a foot in the sneaker. Oh, no. Which is a problem. Yeah.

And then attached to the foot is just the whole rest of the body. Shit. Legs and body and head and the whole. Hips and all of it? Hips and everything, yeah. They got shoulders? Shoulders. And started with a shoe?

and all of it hips and everything yeah shoulders shoulders and started with a shoe just started with the shoe and the rest is in the snow basically with the shoe sticking out uh they said of the shoe of the foot quote it was frozen stiff so it's you know been there for a minute in the snow it's not didn't didn't just fall in there a minute ago okay and uh it's a it's a really it's it's like on this sort of slope down sort of from like a combination of both wooded feet now it's a really, it's like on this sort of slope down, sort of from like a combination of both wooded fields. It's like, it's right where a field meets some trees is where it slopes down. So you could see that. A little small hill? It's kind of a small, just a little slope down into the trees sort of thing.

So they find here and what they can figure, all they see it's it's very the body is very frozen and we'll see it see that it's wrapped in a yellow floral bed sheet as well the only thing that they can determine is that is it is definitely the body of an elderly woman that's shitty that's all they can find which is not what you want to find in the snow that's not the best scavenger hunt find that's i found an old lady long journey off the road for her to be jogging that's yeah in the snow. That's not the best scavenger hunt find. I found an old lady That's an awfully long journey off the road for her to be jogging. That's, yeah, in the snow especially. She's, yeah, pretty elderly too from what they see.

They find that the body this woman is gagged with duct tape. Also said that she was strangled. They noticed that from the electrical cord that is wrapped around her neck. No, it's still there. Once tightly and once loosely around her neck. There, like I said, wrapped in a yellow floral bed sheet.

She was on her left side when they found her. Now they take her from where they found her to the Albany Medical Center, and they cannot do an autopsy for like three days. Jesus. Three days because she was so, quote, the body was so fully frozen. Jesus. Total Frankie Carbone in the meat quote, the body was so fully frozen. Jesus.

Total Frankie Carbone in the meat truck Goodfellas situation there. Inside out frozen. Completely frozen to where they had to two to three days let her thaw out. God. Yeah. Once she thaws out, they determined, they removed the sheet. They find, like we said, an elderly woman. Yeah.

And she's fully clothed, which is, I guess, good. A little positive? I mean, if you want to split hairs here, yeah. She's also, her hands and ankles are bound with duct tape, which is terrible. This is also awful. There's two strips of tape on her mouth and one over the eyes. Oh, no. And the electrical cord wrapped tight once tightly once loosely

around her neck they found a faint like a red mark under her skin like on her skin under the cord where it would be held tight held tight but also she's dumped in snow so it would keep it from really swelling and she's packed in ice right so if she if she was packed in ice pretty soon after this was done it wouldn't be as bad as it would be. It preserves it really well. It would keep bruising and marks down a lot because she's so packed in ice, which is really weird. They found that. Also, her left upper eyelid was bruised and found three small areas of bruising above her lip as well.

And then hemorrhages on her face as far as you know where strangulation would be taken into uh cause that it's a lot also six ribs were broken here and uh in a pattern consistent with being dragged here and a small scrape on her back and in a pattern of multiple circles uh they think that is definitely post-mortem but they're still trying to figure out the ribs problem with being frozen solid like that is it really fucks up the timeline the timeline of what happened when and even post-mortem and it messes everything order is a bitch yeah certain things are certain things get a little uh messy and blurry when you're talking about being frozen for that long that's why the ice man used to freeze people right and dump them off after they defrost it because it would mess up they loved it they

couldn't figure out what the hell's going on here because you've you've screwed you've you've basically you know uh suspended someone in time yeah so it's that's not normal so bizarre it's completely bizarre uh medical examiner here says it's in my opinion within reasonable medical certainty that she died of asphyxia due to ligature strangulation. Yeah. We already knew that. We knew that. Well, you never know.

She could have died from exposure. Yeah. But that's what they think. It was ligature strangulation. Yeah. I guess you got a point. Which is better. Right.

Than being dumped alive. Right. Off a hill somewhere and thrown into the snow. So who is this woman? I'd love to know. Who is she? Well, they find out who she is and it couldn't be any worse jimmy jimmy it couldn't be any worse this makes me so sad

it is a 90 year old great grandmother named ruth witter she's a she's everybody's great 90 literally she is like my grandmother my italian grandma as you guys know is 91 right now she's pretty fucking fragile and i don't want anybody fucking with her. So this is especially bad, and this especially pisses me off. It's bad stuff. You think about all those wounds and all the damage that she incurred. She's an old lady. You don't need all of that.

No, she's old. To control that. Literally, my grandma, you could fucking barely touch her, and she'd go across the room. And probably bleed out. She's fragile as can can be they're so fragile at this age so she was born in 1910 1910 this is crazy uh she was married in 1935 sweet jesus she is married while people were going you know hitler's doing decent things in germany yeah that's when she was married like pre-crazy shit like before anybody knew about the crazy shit when people when he was you know people were going turn around that economy like 40 years that's fucking nuts 40 years before those yellow hued weird pictures came out yes she's married

she's married that's we're still in the depression this is how you know yeah that's a depression we're in roosevelt's second term i mean. I mean, this is crazy when she got married. There's like seven pictures all together that exist at this point. Yeah, and half of them are of Roosevelt waving at people. And somebody doing the Charleston. And Al Capone. And that's it. That's everybody.

This is our history. Franklin Roosevelt. This man doing the Charleston With a very short haired young lady From the 20s A very short haired They did And Alphonse Capone

Gangsta Alphonse God damn it This is the 1920s Welcome Welcome So You will recognize her dress Because it has weird tassels on it God damn it. This is the 1920s. Welcome. Welcome. You will recognize her dress because it has weird tassels on it. It has tassels and she's dressed like a chandelier.

She's a short haircut with a chandelier and a little hat that looks like a purse. All the hats look like little handbags. Hat that looks like a purse and she's dancing around. Oh, boy. And they carried nothing. Where do you store everything? With that little accessories. Your boobs dancing around. Oh, boy. And they carried nothing. Where do you store everything? With that little accessories. Your boobs?

I guess. I guess. Women would whip shit out of their boobs all the time. Those big bloomers with the ruffles on the ass, I guess? Maybe. I don't think they had those, though. Didn't they? The tighter dresses.

This is when ladies were getting the shorter dresses, and they were going out dancing. The flappers and shit. Yeah, the flappers. The short hair. That was an act of rebellion back then, because you're you're not looking like a lady look at you how are you next thing you know she'll wear pants yeah next thing you know she'll have pants on and then there'll be lesbians as far as the eye can see we can't have that lesbians and sleeveless shirts jesus christ lesbians and plaid that's no back then it was very much uh just an act of

rebellion to have short hair so how hilarious is it that straight men uh aren't attracted to lesbians and they're mad about it like those women would be attracted to you anyway you know what i mean like yeah lesbian like what because they don't want to have sex with you yeah i think that's what it is they don't want to have sex with you i think the guy would still have sex with them i think they're just angry because they don't want to have sex with them they're like this woman doesn't want to have sex with me clearly there's something wrong with her right you know it's it's i think that's what it is it's hilarious it's way more about the guy's fucked up psyche there i'm not gonna there's nothing to do with the woman no that's my point i think it's hilarious that a man would be upset oh it's ridiculous yeah yeah oh yeah don't worry bro how come you don't

want to fuck me for real you don't want this i get it we're gross i think we'll fucking blame you i don't want to fuck guys either so i totally understand i was leaning more on the fact that she's got short hair and he's like disgusted by it. He's like, I don't care. He'd probably still fuck her. He doesn't care. Guys will be like, man, I don't like that.

They'll still fuck her. They don't care. Guys will say, any guy will be like, oh, that girl's not that attractive. Look into their history. They've had sex with worse. They'd have sex with her. They'd have sex with their friends and anybody else that's crossed their path. Trust me.

Guys are disgusting. They have no scruples, morals, or standards. That is fascinating. It's absolutely true. crossed their path trust me guys are disgusting they have no scruples morals or standards that is fascinating it's absolutely true any man could ever call any girl ugly because that's what i mean what they consider to be less attractive and the guys yeah never mind it's still they're still lucky to have whatever they're getting so relax out there take it as it comes everybody stop judging so hard that's right so now she was married here ruth was married in 1935 like we said she's married so long ago she's married to

a man named cyril oh gee there were still men named cyril alive that's how long ago this was and uh cyril died in 1983 so they were married for 48 years and then he died and the only reason they were not married anymore is because he died. Because he died, and then she kept going here for another 17 years on her own. She was from Illinois, and she moved around there in the Midwest. She was a volunteer at two different hospitals after her husband died, the Little Company of St. Mary Hospital in Evergreen Park, Illinois, and the Memorial Hospital in St. Joseph.

She's a nice lady, is what everybody says here. Now, there's something ridiculous that I found in her obituary. This is so stupid. And you can see it's printed out from a newspaper. It's not like I didn't write this down. I actually printed out straight newspaper from the back of the day of the of the uh obituary and they need an editor let's just say this back then uh no wonder why the newspaper business is going under the last line of her obituary

of the 91 of a 90 year old woman is quote she was preceded in death by her parents no fucking shit she survived by her mother, who's 136 years old. No shit. Someone should have just gone, what is she, 90? I don't think we need that last line. We could probably save the type, I think,

and maybe not do that. We get it. Even at a 16-year-old mother in 1910, you're looking at a woman that's 106. 106. She's probably dead. More like if she's alive make that the headline right 106 year old woman's daughter dies that should be the headline at

that point that should be right that's the headline then it's not a woman died 106 year old woman's daughter dies that that's crazy 106 year old woman's daughter is visually murdered and we're gonna find out the secret to living to 106 years jesus christ too bad ruth was on her way apparently so she's active too yeah she's in a bowling league wow she's 90 and in a bowling league so 38 and i can't even muster like oh man that's gonna hurt my neck have you bowled recently it hurts your neck it fucking hurts your whole right side of your whichever side you are your neck your left right i don It fucking hurts your whole right side of your body. Whichever side you are. Your neck, your shoulder, your back. Left, right.

I don't give a shit. That whole side of your body is fucked for a week. I did that with my son at his last birthday party. And I'm like, you know what? I think if I did this every day for like six months, I wouldn't be sore at all. If I really worked it up. But do I really want that sort of commitment to this? I really don't.

I don't care about this that much. After that day, I was like, what do you say, son? Laser tag for your birthday? Yeah. You into that? It's either I'm never going to do this again or I'm going to turn pro. One of the two. I'm not sure which.

Pool party? Is that what you're into? Let's do that. Hey, all right. Dabble barbecue and drink beer. Let's go. What do you say? Hey, you know what?

This is much better. That's what I can do. So, yeah, she's in a bowling league. Her son, Alfred, picks her up. And he's in his 60s here, too. He's no spring chicken, either. He's retired, for Christ's sake. He's not spry? No, he, picks her up. And he's in his 60s here, too. He's no spring chicken, either. He's retired. No, he's retired.

Jesus. You know, he's an older guy. She's fucking 90. She picks her up every Friday to go take her grocery shopping, you know, help her out with that. She's she's she's very active. Let's just put it that way. So they talk. There's an investigation.

They're freaking out. Small town like this, if you kill an old lady, that looks bad. Oh, God, yeah. It's like a baby or an old lady. We're going to find out who did this shit. That's unsafe for everyone involved. Absolutely. If they'll do that to her, they'll do that to fucking anyone.

Yeah, and especially if you are an elected official in this town. You know what old people do? They vote. And if they're scared for their lives, they're going to vote against you. And someone's going to be like, I'll keep you safe. No one will murder you in your homes. I'm voting for him. He seems like a nice young man. And if they do, we will solve

it the next day. Immediately. Ten minutes after. Post haste. Solved. Yeah, it's solved yesterday with with the most justice you've ever seen swift and powerful justice from the mountaintops so yeah they want to really show how into this they are and obviously when you kill when a 90 year old woman is killed and dumped somewhere yeah fuck that that's horrible it's not like if it's like a 30 year old guy you go okay first you go what was he into right did he have drug debts was he a gambler whose wife was he

fucking whose wife was he there's a whole bunch of nefarious possibilities of ways he might have been it might have sort of deserved this okay you know like in some was subjectively in someone's mind it's easy to blame a dude yeah when he's you know what i mean savagely beaten and murdered and thrown in the woods you go what happened involved with who'd you fucking piss off dude like as a guy we would say that like who'd you mess with but yeah not that's fair all the time but you'd say obviously there's innocent victims but with a 90 year old woman there's really nothing she could have been doing anybody i don't think you know let's say for instance she crosses paths with i don't know pablo escobar's driving through a parking lot reckless and she smacks the hood with her cane

even if he goes and does this dirt he's still a dick and he's i don't think he would no i think he'd go oh i'm sorry i like the spunk on this old lady he'd like give her money or a bunch of cocaine or something here's cocaine for you that's wonderful so uh they check they talk to her neighbors a couple named richard and kathleen barnhart and they say that they saw a small red car that they'd never seen before and if you've ever listened to small town murder you know that old people pay attention to every car that's ever passed their house they've written down every license plate if i don't know how you can just have this memory bank they can they forget their grandkids names yeah but they remember every single car they've

ever seen and if one doesn't belong there they know it and then they i've never seen that one before and they it's crazy that's maybe stop concentrating on the cars and figure you know maybe that's all this is a good part is them forgetting their family they remember every weird car they've they've never seen and make model license plate you know i have a theory here i'm not a doctor i'm gonna start out with this small town murder we're not doctors that's one thing but maybe just maybe hear me out here okay maybe maybe your family's not worth it dementia really doesn't even exist it's just as you're older you get limited mental resources like you're still just as sharp it's just you have a shorter you know a time because you sleep longer you go to bed at fucking seven o'clock at night right so you do that so while that's happening you they're using all of this

mental acumen that they have for the day on cars and remembering which ones. And then they forget. They wander out, forget where they were, wander out without pants on at the grocery store and get their daughter called. They're heading over to the Mazda dealership to get a look at the new models. Well, the daughter picks them up at the police station. They have no pants on. They're like, I saw a brown car that I've never seen. License plate XC7-726. I wrote it down i got actually i didn't write it

down that's off the top of my head they're perfectly sharp they're just they know every car she's nothing else yeah they just have limited resources and they need to spread them out more got to who are you memorizing the new fleet of fucking hold on i don't know if this is my daughter wait let me see her car oh that's her car okay that's my daughter there it is i know this one nissan juke i knew it i knew it i knew it so uh they talked to also her her son-in-law so small red car in the driveway by the way february 12th she's found february 18th in the snow let's let's start the timeline that's obviously the end of the timeline february 12th she's found february 18th in the snow let's let's start the timeline that's obviously the end of the timeline february 12th is going to be the beginning of the

timeline here red car in the driveway uh so they talked to her son alfred the uh older gentleman who takes her grocery shopping and uh they said that they just realized that she was missing on february 14th they hadn't talked to her the day before. She still wasn't answering. They went over to her house and she's gone. Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. They see that she's not around and so that's where we know she's gone. So the police actually do some good investigating here. Some good work

on these guys' part. And we obviously make fun of cops when they fuck up in this because their job is very important to catch people who are murdered. Sometimes in our show it's just shit that's right under their face or like i i don't know we sent the game warden it should have been fine you know mess ups this is good police work so when it's good police work we got to give definitely credit for this they'd go they check every single pawn shop and anything like that within a huge area and they end up finding in vermont

they find a pawn shop manchester vermont where roots ring had been sold really so that's that's pretty good police work there uh for eight hundred dollars so in a pawn shop in a pawn shop so sold so think about that right that thing's worth like 12 billion dollars yeah that's worth basically the gross domestic product of belgium i feel like very small country yeah luxembourg so uh they say obviously who sold the ring that's the important thing here and they find who who sold this ring to these people and uh it's an interesting one first person not so interesting it's a 20 year old-old man named Jeffrey Hampshire. Yeah. No relation. No, no, doesn't know Ruth.

There's no anything. So that's just, is he a crackhead? Just a random dude. Random shithead, we'll call him at this point for selling. And you don't know if he killed her or not because he might have just, someone might have sold him, someone might have killed her, sold him a ring or traded him drugs for it. Who the shit knows? And once something goes in the black market, who knows where it goes?

But also, more interestingly, he had somebody with her with her with him he had a young lady with him yeah a 19 year old young lady named katherine sieber tell me about her well it's interesting the reason why it's interesting that she's there is because she happens to be ruth's great granddaughter no oh yeah you turn back uh this yeah either way now I don't care if you're involvement in anything at this point. I don't care if you found out she's dead and just went to the house and grabbed her. Yes, that's what I'm saying. You're a scumbag. Fuck you at this point.

I already don't like this person. You're a shitbag taking advantage of old people. You're an old person that's in your family, too. Right. Somebody you should respect and treat with fucking, treat with respect, goddammit. Jesus Christ, yeah. Like I said, we go over like my grandmother's house

I go over there you kiss your grandmother god damn cheek you tell my kids go there and give your fucking grandmother a kiss before I smack you treat her with respect

god damn it she's a hundred almost she's 91 that's close enough that's close that's close I'm sorry

you get the extra nine I'm gonna round up real hard if we're playing on the decades I'm rounding up on nine sorry she's in her 10th yeah she's in her 10th year 10th decade so it's fine uh so katherine sieber a little bit about her she's 19 years old like we said she's from she's born and raised in rexburg idaho

which is in south the southeastern idaho panhandle there there's idaho is another two panhandler it's a very strange state. It's basically reverse cold Florida, the way it's shaped. Well, it's kind of not shaped because it's kind of a... It's like giant New Hampshire with just some weird, some shady shit happening there. Giant militia of New Hampshire. Yeah. There you go.

And Dan Cummins. And Dan Cummins in there going, I'm not in a militia or nothing. Will somebody please move here to be friends with me? Will my friends please move here so that I have people to talk to? That's been proposed, by the way. Yeah, Lindsay and Sarah talked to each other, and she said, you guys should move here. And Sarah's like, fuck no. We love you, but it's freezing up there.

You're out of your mind. Somebody please move here with us. No, no, no, no, no. So this is a Mormon city, city a little mormon town 17 000 people in this town yeah it's just on the other we could do a small town murder about this place it's just on the border across the border of uh of utah utah and that area yeah next to montana there but a lot of people from like provo and salt lake kind of flood into this area yeah it's wild so yeah they'd move out here to to god's

country right so to grow potatoes so this place is it's a very conservative little town and uh their motto in this town is america's family community yeah that tells you a lot uh unfortunately it's a giant mormon family so be careful tight knit tight knit it's the dougars so watch out lots of the same genes yeah same thing everybody looks the same yeah it's not great so uh now katherine's background her parents were were you know married originally sure and they end up getting a divorce and when she's younger and her father moves to new york moves to the stillwater area up here, the Capital District, as they call it, moves up there. And while she was in Idaho, she was straight-laced as can be.

Never drank, never smoked, didn't run with the wrong crowd. Raised around Mormons. That's the thing. And she kind of just fell into that. She did very well in school. She told everybody that her goal was to go to college and then become an officer uh in the in the armed forces that's what she wanted she wanted to be in the military and she wanted to be an officer so that's and she wanted like a career in the military yeah she wanted school uh you know

college 20 years in the military or whatever and that's that was her goal i don't know whatever i don't know whatever it is i think it's four and then after that you can sign up to for the officer that's what i mean but yeah if you're in college if you go to college you got to go 20 yeah and if you go to college first i know you get a jump on the office or shit and all that it's all fucking it's all whatever and then yeah so she wants to be career military that idea is so foreign to me no yeah i because then you'd have to listen to people right and you got to be you got to be by the book and to be an american hero and look like something and be something i can't do someone yells at me i gotta yell back and that's a bad thing which that's not that's not saying i'm any better that's saying i don't

have the discipline for that exactly that's my problem so i'm not as good at that as you are so i'm impressed with that shit good for her for having that sort of uh that sort of mentality and wanting that i can't thank you to anyone who could do that, because I can't. Yeah, but she's, man, it's rough, though, man. Once she came to New York, she ends up moving with her father in her teen years to finish high school with her dad.

She just wanted to be with her dad. As you know, if your parents get divorced like that, they live across the country. I did that, too. I moved. I went back and forth a couple of times so i totally understand what happened there but when she moved to new york she completely turned into a different kind of kid yeah fell in with the wrong crowd uh started partying and all that type type of shit and not even like you know oh christ she's

drunk again to the point where she would like steal shit uh her father and stepmother had to padlock all the rooms in the house that she wasn't like that they didn't want her in if they left the house all right they'd go you lock everything up all right yeah make sure katherine can't get in our room which is nobody wants to live like that no fuck dude padlocking your house from your kid that means you don't just like do that because you see behavior no this has happened experience things shit's disappeared from your bedroom this is saying katie stay the fuck out of my room yeah and then you leave and you come back and you go katie was fucking in here we told her no this is when you go i'm tired of buying more jewelry boxes i've lost so many already and you know i'm tired of canceling credit cards yeah just lock the fucking doors one of those it's

happened several times exactly and. And she also, she burnt her stomach with a curling iron, which, and then told the school psychologist that her father did it to her. Oh no. Oh yeah.

Oh bitch. Then they came to her father and he was like, no, I didn't burn her with a goddamn curling iron. What are you fucking talking about? And then they went to her

and she went, okay, I burned myself with a curling iron. Jesus. Which is bonkers. That's, it's one thing that thing that you know self-harm happens and people have you know issues obviously and that's that are in pain that they that they do that but she needs a therapist and she's screaming to help but to self-harm and then actually try to get someone else in trouble

for it is a different thing completely right like i don't know if that i don't even know if those are connected or i don't know the psychology behind she had to know he was gonna uh deny it and then when they come back to her and say your dad denied it and then she caves that's that's almost crazier than just sticking with that's what i mean did she think she could stick with it because obviously he would deny it if he didn't do it she had to know that that was going to come but then she would go no he did do it and then they'd take him to jail i guess is that what she thought and then she'd get attention i don't know what the end game is here or was the whole thing for attention was she trying to get her dad's attention i don't know the psychology behind this whole thing i'm not a once again i'm not a

doctor it is there's absolutely there's a lot of screaming for attention there's some mixed shit in here yeah i don't know what attention she, but she wants somebody to talk to her. That's what I mean. It's the wrong kind of attention, obviously. But I don't know what the psychology is from self-harm to then trying to ensnare someone else and blame them in it. What year is that? Is that the 90s? This is, yeah, 1998, 2000, something around there, 99.

That's too far into her life to where oh yeah she's she's you know 17 18 years old at this point but i you know what i mean like where where does that start turn into that are those two separate completely things self-harm and then try and manipulation of of trying to actually harm someone else i don't know i don't know how long her dad and her mom is that a and b or is that one cocktail that's somehow mixed that's separate from that and that? That might be A and F. You know what I mean? If you're a psychologist or something, please, psychiatrist, somebody tweet at us and let

us know that shit because I am- There's got to be much more involved to get to that point. Because I can't get there from A to B. That's what I mean. I can get there from A, B, C, D, E, F. Tons of- I feel like I would need medical school to understand this. So I'm not sure

like a residency she then also bragged about burning her little brother with curling irons even though she didn't uh which is weird she lies a lot she would lie also and then she would brag about stealing from classmates when she lived in idaho even though she never did so as soon as she got to new york she tried to be like as soon as she got to New York, she tried to be like, as soon as she got to Stillwater, she tried to be, she tried to like completely change herself and be Miss Badass. Wearing leather and shit. Yeah, like I did this over here and I did that. She turned into like Olivia Newton-John wearing black at the end of Grease or something. You're like, come on.

Come on, Catherine. It's not natural. A Bic pen tattoo. Yeah, that's not natural. The three dots on her hand. And nothing of them, but that dude's gay anyway so jeffrey's not though and jeffrey's into her and uh she hooks up with jeffrey hampshire and they become a couple and uh they're this is his first girlfriend yeah ever like his first this is his

first piece of ass we'll say to be crude this is the first girl he's having sex with. So at 20, he's going, this is the first piece of ass I'm getting. And he's fucking jacked about it. He is so excited it's not even funny. He's smitten. He is. And she is a lot smarter than him, too. Like, it's not even a question.

Jeffrey's a fucking moron. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. This kid is an idiot. He's just a dummy. Wait till we hear how his whole life worked. He's a complete moron, this kid. You just can't get any dumber than him. Easily controlled, easily manipulated. That's the other thing.

And you give him a little bit of sex, and he's just blinded and dumb. He's going to galooly the situation completely. Galooly. For a time yard. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx,

and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus wondery app or on apple podcasts unbelievable so uh february 12th 2000 uh they say that weekend and that's as we know

that's the february 12th is the date of the red car being seen in the driveway of roots house that weekend katherine and uh katherine and jeffrey spend that weekend hanging out and partying they They're both unemployed. Neither of them go to school. Neither of them do shit. They just hang out. They drink. They do drugs. They fuck around. Whatever. You're allowed to at that point. Yeah.

Get a job. Go to school. Do something. You're over 18. Figure it out. At least gas money. Figure your life out. I know you live with your mom or whatever, but when you go out to party, how do you buy your drugs you know what i'm saying at least have drug money for yourself so that's be responsible always at least have drug money you should have your own drug money you know what i mean right should rarely be bumming weed off of people well i mean you know weed or you can join your friends that you do that with or something

but drug money like if you're gonna buy drugs you need to have something to pay for that don't turn to a friend and go you got this right that's yeah i've always been like that with weed very responsible like that where it's like well you know i gotta be able to buy my own i'm gonna be able to buy my own weed you know so because you're a dude yeah get it together here you're not a girl who gets it bought for oh well that's that would be that i remember that it's like a teenager yeah what kind of situation is this people just give you weed it's yeah that's amazing and it continues when you turn 21 you guys just push drinks down your throat i know that is pretty but but on the on the dark side on the flip side of that point that means they're gonna try to fuck you and you have to then fend them off so you know what what? I can just go out and do what I want.

I'll buy my own. And I'm sure there's women going, yep, not worth it. Not worth it. So what we figured out today, not worth it for women to get free drinks and men are mad because lesbians don't want to fuck them and they want to fuck the lesbians.

That's how this works. So good. What a world. Yeah. What a time to be alive. They're angry why don't you want to fuck me girls are attractive when they wear basketball shorts and i can't have any of them but on the off chance that you wearing those basketball shorts are into me i will buy you

drinks i will buy drinks and or weed until you fall asleep and then then I will maybe jerk off around you. We're a sorry lot, aren't we? It's disgusting. So they end up spending that weekend partying in a motel, Jeffrey and Catherine, all right, to the point where they do some damage to the motel, and Jeffrey's parents receive a call from the hotel manager. He's 20. I don't know why they're calling his parents for. I think that's a civil or criminal matter of his own doing at that the police he's got a social security number they'll arrest him yeah didn't

he leave a credit card or you know when he rented this goddamn room didn't he give you some sort of financial put it on there yeah something to for backup in case you trashed the joint so they said didn't that's on you yeah that's your you trusted him sorry so he the parents here this is jeffrey hampshire's father jeffrey hampshire's father says about jeffrey and katherine quote he came home one day and said that he met a girl uh he told me she's the smartest person i've ever met which and she she's met he's met up to three four people so me his mom and an aunt one time so it's pretty it's a high company uh also but the mother the mother's impressed too the jeffrey's mother's an elementary school teacher so i mean she went to college she's a smart person she's you know guiding the our youth and uh she even said katherine was very

impressive uh she says quote this is about katherine quote she said she scored a 1600 on her sats and she had taken junior ROTC. She was very sophisticated looking. I would guess she was at least 23 years old by the way she dressed. What the fuck does that mean? She dresses four years older because she's a professional. What does that mean? Christina Applegate from Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead.

Slap some shoulder pads on. Right on top of that, Rose. She's very sophisticated looks like she pays a bill or two in her life she's ready to why don't we just hold the fashion show at her house it'd be perfect very sophisticated girlfriend you have son what does she have a car bill does she have a car payment i bet she must have a car she has car insurance doesn't she oh she's insured and everything so yeah they said though that day that weekend of february 14th is when the motel incident happened and that they saw

they what they said is a different side of her at that moment in time because uh the hotel managers called and said hey your kid did 685 dollars worth of damage to my goddamn hotel here what the fuck and uh the hampshire said they sat their son down and katherine they sat them down on the couch and with the damage to my goddamn hotel here. What the fuck? And the Hampshire said they sat their son down and Catherine. They sat them down on the couch and they gave them a talking to. Now, you did bad. They said, this is Jeffrey's father.

Quote, I told Jeffrey how disappointed in him I was. He's 20. I smacked him on the nose. Disappointed is a different story. I'm shaking him upside down for his money in his pockets. You're paying for this, fuckwad. Notad not me stupid understand the locks on the house what the fuck you have hotels calling me go figure out your own life ridiculous uh she he says quote we told him he

had to go see the manager right away and so jeffrey's like agreeable to this shit he's like okay okay okay okay that's okay i'll do it but katherine at the other time they said that katherine the whole time wasn't listening and was just sitting on the couch with her legs crossed reading a newspaper okay they said when they finished they said you have to go see the manager jeffrey said okay katherine closed the newspaper and said quote it's all a lie i'm not paying anything and then began reading the newspaper again oh shit like just cold as can be they were like everybody damn that girl's 19 that's just that's just you know 19 that's for anybody you're like shit that damn that's worldly some worldly shit right there uh so police uh through the from the ring incident from finding the ring they know they want to talk to jeffrey

hampshire uh and they want to talk to him first because basically once they find out who he is, they go, no matter who else is involved in this, he's the weak link. He's that dumb. He's not the smart one. Put it that way. He's got a shoe on top. Yeah, he's not the brains of the operation.

Well, I can't tie that till I get home and mom ties it for me. He's got a beanie with a fucking propeller on top. It's very sad. He's got a mo haircut. Not working out. Zippers down. Oh, absolutely.

Shirts are crookedly buttoned. He's carrying a lamp and a thermos and a fucking remote control. Hands around his ankle. He's the jerk now, yeah. In a pink robe. Wasn't he wearing a pink robe? I think it was a blue robe. Yeah, blue.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the blue with the kind of partially open with the thing kind of crooked. The shoulder off. Yeah, it's all messed up. Now that he's got that, they bring him in and they're like, wow, he's a mess.

He's going to be easy to crack. They bring him in. This is February 16th. They bring him in. So now, February 12th, red car. February 14th, they sit him down.

His parents sit him and Catherine down on the couch. You fucked up that motel room. That's also the day that Alfred finds out that Ruth is missing. The son finds out that his mother is missing. Ruth. And then February 18th is when she is found in the snow. So that's our timeline at this point.

And 16th, we've got him sat down. 16th, yes, we've got so. This is right now. That's what I mean. Right now, we're on February 16th. And Hampshire is brought in. They read him as Miranda Warning. Now, they have him for a robbery at a bowling alley.

He robbed some keys and an address book out of a car at the High Rock Lanes bowling alley. So, they have him on that no matter what. What the hell is a caper? Yeah, well, then he actually took the keys and the address book, went to that person's house, broke in and stole a bunch of shit while they were bowling. Oh, that's cold-hearted shit, man. Somebody's tipsy. They're a pitcher and a half.

They're bowling like a.241. It's like their best game ever. Smoking indoors. Smoking indoors. Just loving life. Just having a great time. Going outside in their cars. Keys are gone and all their shit's gone.

Windows broken. Hey! What the fuck? Everything's gone. Windows broken. Hey. What the fuck? Everything's gone. So they give him a Miranda warning and like a true genius, he says,

oh no, I'll talk. Yeah. No, no, whatever you got. Who's Miranda? Let's talk. I don't have to talk, but I will. I mean, I don't have to,

but I mean, Jesus. Is that Miranda hot because we talked to her? Is she going to talk to me? Do we have her number? Tell you what, tell her to warn me and then we'll talk to me? Do we have her number? Tell you what. Tell her to warn me and then we'll talk about it. Tell her I've had upwards of one pussy in my life.

What's her warning? Does she have something? She got the clap or something? Is that the warning? Listen, that's a Miranda warning. I'm dangerous too. I break into cars. That's what happens.

She breaks into hives. I break into cars. So they sit this fucking moron. She breaks into blisters. Into into cars so they sit this fucking more into blisters me so but we're a good team that way so these jesus christ these two they sit where they are i mean they sit jeffrey down this is katherine doesn't even know that jeffrey's been taken in at this point they sit jeffrey down and they go okay let's talk about this when were you ever in the area of ruth's house have you ever been in that town even? And he says, I've been there one time ever in that town.

And that was two days ago on February 14th, Valentine's Day with me and my girlfriend went and had dinner at a restaurant there because it's Valentine's Day. And we drove home. They said, OK, that makes sense. You know, that's cool. But it's a murder interrogation. So they're going to talk to him for a long time. And they're kind of not tipping their hand that they're sure he's involved in something. They're making it seem like, look, we're going to really bust your balls about this robbery with the bowling alley and all that shit.

And then they're going to slip in some, there's this old dead old lady thing a couple times, too. Sidetracking with Miranda's tits. Yeah. So either way, they have a Miranda eyes, so it's kind of a Trojan horse. dead old lady thing a couple times too because i track him with miranda's tits yeah and so either way they have a miranda eyes so it's kind of a trojan horse they're kind of trojan horsing a murder thing through a robbery this is great questioning which is i mean and legally it's it's all a miranda warning so i mean you're all under one umbrella it's not like your question you can only question him for one particular thing you're it's questioning shit's open at

that point if he wants to talk it's up to him beautiful so uh over the course of several hours he goes oh you know what you're right um he slips up at one point he goes no you're absolutely right i did mess up um i was there on the 14th i was also in that town on february 11th i mentioned that so i was there on the 11th and the 14th but those are the only two times i've ever been there in history. Like, ever. You know, never even been there. That's it. And then, oh, yeah. I was also there on February 12th. Did I mention that?

So, I was there one time, but I was actually there every day this week. Did I mention that? Like, every single day there? Yeah. So, I was there. It's my favorite town, actually. It's actually my favorite town. I'm actually the mayor of the town.

I'm a big fan. Did I tell you that? I'm actually the mayor. I paint the sign population whenever somebody moves in or leaves. I stand there with a paintbrush. So really a big part of the fabric of the town. I'm the grandmaster of the parade. Did I tell you that?

Grand marshal. Grand marshal. Grandmaster. Jesus Christ. I haven't slept in a week. I don't know what to tell you. Please don't say grand dragon. That's all right.

Geographization and this shit. I haven't slept in a fucking week what do you want from me it's very rare that i get to correct your grammar so i have no idea what's happening today wow the grandmaster i'm grandmaster flash there grandmaster flash of the parade every parade should have a grandmaster flash at the front that's a parade yeah just all right we're ready move on that's what i want every parade every block he's screaming all right motherfuckers parade time motherfuckers he says yeah oh it's so good i would love to see that dressed just like in the fucking

from 1981 that'd be amazing so many zippers zippers and leather uh he looks like so many zippers and motherfuckers it's so good let's go motherfuckers girl scouts following him come on motherfuckers let's go there's shriner zipping around tiny car oh yeah let's go motherfuckers he said let's go. He said motherfuckers. I don't know. So why was he there on the 12th in particular? So now it's gone to the 11th, the 12th, the 14th.

Right. All the time. He says now that he just remembered, it's, I forgot. I mean, it's been a long week, obviously. He's had a week like we've had. Right. You know, multiple cities. Yeah.

He says that Catherine wanted to show her great-grandmother her new car, which is actually not new. It's a 93 Geo Prism. You know what color it is? No. It's red, by the way. Justin, you know what Geo Prisms are? I'd call them a small red car. I would call them a car.

Let's just say that. If it's red, it's certainly a small red car. Yeah, and that's February 12th, the day that the neighbors said they saw a small red car in the driveway big coincidence but uh jeffrey says they didn't go to roots house they said they went looking for it but they had only been there katherine had only been there a couple times and couldn't find it so they never found the house they looked around for a little while this is pre-gps you know that sort of thing so they looked around for a little while and then just shrugged it off and drove off and never went to her house.

So they were like, yeah, I don't know. That must have been a different little red car. You know, that's his story. So they said, let me ask you this, Jeffrey. How often have you ever been to pawn shops? You know anything about pawn shops? And he goes, pawn shops? What's that?

They got a shop for every chess piece? Yeah. Is that where they got a bishop shop up there? A rook shop? Can't wait to go to that queen shop. That's going to be a good shop. I'll bet Miranda works. She shops there.

She's going to be good at that. So they ask him about that. And he goes, I've never been to a pawn shop. He literally was like, what is a pawn shop again? And they were like, where you sell things. Then they resell them for higher value. It's actually for shady people. They're like, yeah, I don't think I've ever been to one of those.

No, I'm not a piece of shit. I stay out of those. Yeah, but then they go after a little, they after over some time and he goes you know what that pawn shop thing yeah um you're right i did i messed up on that one you were right um i actually have been in a pawn shop a couple years ago sure i forgot about it it was just you know me and my friends went and you forget about things you know how it works like that um yeah you know i've been to a pawn shop a couple years ago and then last summer also last summer i was also at a pawn shop unless i told you um did i mention by the way i

was at a pawn shop two weeks ago because i was at a pawn shop a couple years ago last summer and two weeks ago fuck god damn it guys did i i was at a pawn shop two days ago did i mention that i was at a pawn shop two days ago because i was at a pawn shop two days i. Did I mention that? That I was in a pawn shop two days ago? Because I was in a pawn shop two days ago. I was in a pawn shop two years ago, last summer, two weeks ago, and two days ago. If you watch A&E or have Netflix, my show Pawn Stars is on. You can watch that. You can watch that. By work there,

actually, I own the pawn shop. My name is Chum Lee. It's nice to meet you. I'll give you 50 bucks for that watch. My grandfather's going to be pissed because that's a fake you have it you have any confederate war any confederate memorabilia because we always buy that they always buy every damn time everybody every fucking time and never fail so there's that shit yeah so he's been there he's never been to colony except every day this week right although he's never been there and he's been to a pawn shop constantly and he works at a pawn shop so

his favorite place uh next to pawn yeah it's it's it's pretty fucking there, and he's been to a pawn shop constantly, and he works at a pawn shop. His favorite place next to pawn shops. Yeah, it's pretty fucking ridiculous is really what's going on here. If you can't find him in this town, you can come to the nearest pawn shop. He's certainly there. I'm surprised they didn't run into him when they were looking for the ring of pawn shops.

Just run into him there. Catch him pawning it right there. Walk in with a picture of him. Have you seen that? What the fuck? Hold on a second. Guess you have. So they tell him, him look this is when they hit him with now that he's fucked up his story 12 times rather than just going i'd like an attorney please and then get a robbery charge and nothing else uh he says all of this and what they say is they go we have a fiber sample that

matches the bed sheet uh that root's body was wrapped in when it was uncovered. We have that. And there's a thread caught on a nail, they said, that was dragged through the garage. So we have that. And we also have a piece of duct tape that matches that. So that matches the bed sheet from the house to her out there. They also said that they have some duct tape, Witter's DNA on some duct tape that was on her. And they said, now that tape,

you never know, we have a bunch of duct tape from some speaker wires in your room. Now, if we go and test all that duct tape, is that going to come back to be the same roll of duct tape? And is that going to be the same? Because something tells me it might be. By the way, they have, that doesn't,

none of that exists. They couldn't do that at that point in time. And you could do that in a certain thing, if it's a tear or something like that those tears can match up that's up but they that didn't match up but they tell him you never know we start getting into that dna stuff you know that works and uh you know so he's like oh he doesn't know how shit works yeah so he starts panicking but he keeps his mouth shut and he's like i don't know what you're talking about man i don't know i i told you everything you know i'm just pawn shops and you know how i go pawn shops and and fucking and that town that's all i do so they they really

they really wanted him to go yes i did it and uh also here's what katherine did and this is both our roles and but he doesn't go there so they're like how the fuck are we going to catch katherine because she seems a little smarter than this uh at least they think that for a few days until they get a phone call from a male friend of hers. Some guy who says, strange thing happened. I have a friend of mine, this chick. Dress is real sophisticated. Totally. I thought she was at least 23.

It turns out she's 19. It's super weird. But she'll burn you with a curling iron now watch out he said vicious with a car she says i know her for a while now and the weird thing is she just told me that she killed her great-grandma i don't know if this is true or not like but she says i killed my great-grandma and like buried her in the woods so does that mean anything to you guys do you guys maybe are you interested in this and the cops are like oh that's pretty good uh wow talk about a gift of investigative investigative gift here and they go well she's they're like she just admitted it to you and he goes yeah she'll

just talk about it with me like she brings it up she keeps bringing it up like she's real proud of it or some shit and they're like i'm really getting sick and tired of hearing about it to be honest it's just it's just fucking over and over. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yada, yada, yada. This she's yada, yada over the murder.

That's how many times she's gone over it. She's like, so now we got to cover the body up. It's crazy. So yada, yada over the murder. Once you get to that point. Yeah. So, yeah, she they said, tell you what, man, you're her buddy. She's talking to you about this.

Do you think maybe you could wear a wire and get her to talk about it with you? Yeah. And he went, I'll throw a wire on. If I bring it up, she'll talk about. Sure. What the fuck? It's a small town. It's the went, I'll throw a wire on. If I bring it up, she'll talk about it. Sure, what the fuck? It's a small town. It's the most action I'll ever do.

Yeah. Fucking strap me up. This sounds great. And imagine small town police force like, this is awesome. We've got one. Chief, you have an informant. I know.

Totally, right? We can put tape on. Dude, it's total cop stuff. Okay, you got that tape that doesn't like rip your... Okay, cool, cool. Let's do this shit. Tell this kid to shave his chest. He's going to work. Do we we have batteries i don't think we have batteries for these some go to the

store get batteries let's go come on guys let's act like we have our shit together here like come on we're just as sophisticated as any other police force everybody let's keep it together here let's tape them up they're like this is so cool if at any point while they're wiring someone up one of the cops goes this is so cool you're in a bad police force you're in a really i wish i really want that to happen totally lame he says quote this is so cool so they said as a matter of fact you have a wire she'll do that do you think this is a long shot obviously because who the fuck would be dumb enough to do this? But do you think just ask her if you can like stand by me the situation and see if she'll take you to the body? Oh, yeah. Say, show me.

Will you show me where the body is? Show me a dead body. Yeah. Actually say the exact word. Show me a dead body. Want to see a dead body? I just tell her I want to see a dead body. So they said, do you think that you could ask her?

Just act curious because she wants to talk about it. So obviously she's interested in it. You talk it too and just be like hey you know will you show it to me maybe act like you don't believe her right and maybe act because if you challenge catherine she'll fucking oh i'll show you liar yeah you didn't really do that i did too i am a badass yeah it's one of those things with her and he goes sure what the fuck and so she he puts a wire on goes to her and she goes i'll show you where the fucking body is no problem let's do it they get in the car they're driving out in the middle of nowhere this is february 18th yeah they're driving out toward the saratoga you know

no man's land out here and uh uh they're going to see the body she's got a he's got a wire on they're in the car he's driving at one point she looks in the rear view she notices that they're being followed yeah uh and she she's pretty sure it's police and she starts flipping out on him she starts yelling at her for you motherfucking bastard yeah he fucking sent me she turns into fucking john gaudy if you had a wire on me this cock sucker we're gonna fucking clip this fuck this son of a bitch. That's what she turns into, just fucking you son of a bitch. Turns into a gangster immediately, right? Yeah.

So at this point, she's yelling at him and obviously the fucking ruse is up now. I don't think she's bringing him to the body. No. So the cops, you know, they light her up with the sirens and everything. They hear it all happening. Yeah, they hear it happening. They light up the lights. They pull him over and she's sitting there. They pull the friend out of the car cop comes up to her

now now she's crying from the time of the year to there she went from you motherfucker to i'm so sad yeah so she knows how to manipulate situations here so the state police investigator comes up to her this guy's name is bud york hell yeah which sounds like a state police investigator he sounds like the head of the state police his name is york in new york he better be the head bud york he's got seven letters in his entire name it sums him up that's amazing i can do it in seven that's so awesome like as a person with an 11 letter last name that's amazing you know the dream of that bud york holy shit that's awesome uh so bud you you how flat is his top but you're just fucking it he uses a level i was gonna say you could put a level on and it would be perfect you're like no that's that carpenters are impressed with flush and plum

i don't know how it's both but it's both it's flush plum and level boy that is a fucking that's a hell of a kind of haircut you got there man so uh uh he walks up to her with his flat top and everything puts his hand on her shoulder and this is a god i love this fucking line she's sobbing and he says quote kate it's time to show me where grandma is get on which is fucking great so uh they do and they find out where she says she's over there blah blah they end up finding her uh there uh uh so jesus christ they arrest her obviously uh you know you're gonna get arrested from that now at the same time when this is found they rearrest jeffrey even though he's already under arrest they are recharging him with you know with murder now so they do this while they're

fingerprinting him now they're fingerprinting him he's not being questioned no it's not like there's a detective fingerprinting go you're gonna tell me everything punk while he's being fingerprinted right that part's over now you're just or that's gonna happen later this is just a guy his only job is to fingerprint you this is like someone who's three weeks from retirement or like you know had an injury or something. They don't care. And he goes, what's this for? I don't know.

You got some new charges or something. They don't. Oh, I know what those are. Any fucking idea or really give a shit. Yeah. This Jeffrey begins making loud and completely unsolicited voluntary statements of guilt. Great. Throughout the police station to the fingerprint guy.

Right to this guy. Pissing that person off because they just want to get it over with so they can go take their break. Shut up, man. You're going to make me have to go to court too. Fuck me. I don't want to know about this stuff.

I'm not interested. All right? Some people just aren't interested. You selfish prick. There are going to be some people that want to hear this. I'm not him. I'm not one of them. So, yeah, he starts screaming, quote, that he's tired of defending Catherine, that she

bought the tape and got the pellet gun, which hasn't been brought up yet, and that he was outside smoking when she was killing Ruth. I had nothing to fucking do with it. I don't know what you're talking about. Just screaming this shit. Put your fingers on the pad, man. Thumb. Now your thumb.

Roll it. You've done this before god damn it this guy is so fucking stupid we've had you in a cell you've already been through jesus so they end up going back to the house and they find out in the snow they find a uh pellet gun which is a crossman 177 caliber co2 look-alike that looks exactly like a 357 jimmy there is i mean i've showed you the picture it is exactly like a 357 it's real stuff even in broad daylight yeah police would fucking open fire on jean-benet ramsey if she had this fucking gun i'm telling and it would be people go you know what i see that i could see it what's her problem jesus you don't you don't wave that around a cop obviously they're gonna shoot you jesus christ john bonnet you don't learn your parents jeez john bonnet fucking head on a swivel you know what i'm saying be more careful and it would because that's how fucking real it looks not

one person in america would blame the cops no taking her down i wouldn't know anybody whip that out on me and I have a way to protect myself, I am fucking using it because that thing is scary looking. It looked like a giant hand cannon. That's what it looked like. Hey. God damn it. So he ends up pleading innocent to second degree murder charges and they're thinking about death penalty for both of these guys, but they're're going through they want to get them charged up now and then

they can you know update the charges later on here uh they want it they're talking about first degree murder because that's a death penalty situation so they want to have that leverage of you know at least getting a plea out of them you can you can get a plea of oh well we just won't go for the we won't you know no death penalty and that'll that's a plea right rather than that's a happy day yeah you can get life in prison and and they're they think they got a deal out of you so that's not bad now the detectives who question katherine they call her as unremorseful and cold and tough as anyone they've ever talked to and she's a 19 year old girl very sophisticated though as we know march 21st katherine's father dies dies while she's in jail being held, presumably of shame and disappointment.

I would assume, according to the newspaper here, the the obituary said he's an animal lover and he also loved WCW wrestling. So he'd have been very disappointed the next year when they went out of business. So it's a good time for him to die. Probably. Daughters up for murder. Wrestling's going under TV shows like to wonder uh are you born this way or is this an environmental uh change that happens to your chemical makeup that creates this and this is a great case to study to fucking figure that out what happened to her she's a cold-hearted bitch yeah 19 already yeah

that's what i mean intense this is very intense this is it's just yeah it's abnormal i guess for men it's not abnormal though those guys are serial killers by yeah no they want to be there's people who are vicious by this age they're just not sophisticated yeah they're just not sophisticated enough yet so katherine uh she's got jeffrey being arrested and basically they're doing like like a wire thing here like on the wire where they're going back one of you is going to be a witness and one of you is going to be the main killer here. Whoever goes first is going to be the one who gets the deal

and then the other one might go to the chair. Hey, or the needle at this point. Are they playing at this point on both of them pleading guilty? No, they're trying to get one to flip on the other and spill it and then get the death penalty on the other or at least get them so they'll plead a life in parole

and they'll get the whole thing. Yeah's that'd be done with the whole thing but katherine she says i don't want to be the one to get told on and have james and have you know hampshire here get the whole deal so you know what i'm gonna preempt guilty i plead guilty katherine pleads guilty right away right no she goes from i don't know shit yeah to i'm pleading guilty and testifying against jeffrey okay i'll do that his fault fuck it all him i'm innocent that's how it works uh so she does in court she says this is this is the allocution they let her get away with which is horseshit uh quote i went to my grandmother's house with jeffrey hampshire while we were there

we went inside and he told me that he was going to steal from her. We went back inside. He told me that he was not going to do it. But as he went down the hall, he went back into the bedroom and I thought he was stealing from her. So I stood between where Jeff was and where my grandmother was and continued to talk with her in order for him not to be caught stealing from her. First of all, no, don't steal from my fucking grandmother. Get out of my house. You're contributing to that. And in the course of an in furtherance of such crime, we caused the death of Ruth Witter

and later placed her body in Saratoga. That's what they let her get away. That ain't it. Not you forgot duct taped or strangled or dragged or put her in the trunk of a car, dumped her in the snow. Let's hear the details. At this point, we started horrible shit. That's what happened. Yeah. She said that that caused that lord they let her get away with

that uh they do they do man they have to there's a real picky little legal detail of whether she was in the residence unlawfully during the commission of the crime like was she stealing property before that started because that would be it's a legal charge for an aggravator basically so she says yes she was in there this is fucking ridiculous you don't fucking no you don't do this shit this is terrible no it's you don't fuck with old people already know this like yeah she should already know that she's being a real dickhead this is awful and it makes you want to do anything, something about it. Whether it's kids or an old lady like this, you just don't fuck with them.

It's just so scummy. Don't fuck with old ladies. No, it's so gross. Jesus Christ. How many times have we said it on this show? Stop fucking with old ladies, especially an old lady that's, like I said, part of your family. And so independent. She's not even a burden to anybody in the family.

She's 90 and taking care of herself. She's doing her own thing. She does her own shit. Yeah, other than going grocery shopping once a week she takes care of herself and nothing she burden is a reason to fucking smother them no no yeah i'm just saying she's done nothing to anybody no to even upset anybody the only thing she did that they found that she uh may have upset katherine was she is katherine's step great grandmother okay she's Catherine's stepmother's grandmother dad's new wife's yeah but it has been dad's wife for yeah yeah over 10 years

you know so it's not like oh this new chick like it's dad's you know whatever it's she's part of the family she's right she's known this woman since she was a little kid it's not like she just met her and was like yeah there's an old lady I can knock over like she's known her forever but they were at a family gathering pretty recently and uh katherine was referring to ruth as my great-grandmother my great-grandmother and ruth stopped her and said i only have one great-granddaughter and it's not you so uh i like ruth i don't know maybe maybe she deserved this she's got her mouth on it this lady i don't know hey She's got a mouth. A great-granddaughter or a great-grandchild, that's something that a great-grandmother would hold super dear.

I've put 91 years into getting this. Yeah, my two kids are my grandma. Yeah. Right. That's what it is. And you're just going to fucking claim it because your dad married into this shit? No. And they're also very picky about who's related.

It's a very weird thing, these old people. Sure. So, yeah. So they now at his trial here, his lawyers portray her as the mastermind and the prosecution tries to portray Jeffrey as the mastermind, which is a stretch. It's a stretch. I got to say he's a grandmaster. Yeah, he's a grandmaster, but not a mastermind. Put it that way.

The district attorney said they're a team and they're both guilty. That was one of the things they're trying to say. They're trying to say that, you know, Catherine's no angel here. She did it, too. But I think it was more Jeffrey. Now, they said that the defense says that they have physical evidence that shows that it's all CBER and CBER alone. And that is based on some fiber evidence. Now they have some fiber evidence saying that the gloves that were worn while,

while Ruth was being strangled by, by whoever was the murderer were Catherine's gloves. Okay. That's the fiber evidence. Now that's the fiber evidence they had from the beginning. That's so the state says, cause this is why Catherine, that's why she pled guilty. Because they said, we have fiber evidence.

It's your gloves doing it. So she said, fuck, I got to plead guilty. I'll blame it on Jeffrey. Now, the spin that the state puts on it and that she puts on it is midway through the killing, Jeffrey started strangling Ruth, then stopped and said, my gloves are uncomfortable to strangle with. Can I use yours? These are a little too loose. These are two literally.

Can I? And Catherine gave him her gloves and then she he wore Catherine's gloves and finished the strangling. That's their story, which is not a good story at all. But that's what they're going with. Pretty weak. That's pretty fucking weak. But the forensics were a big, big reason why she pled guilty here.

Yeah. She says that in court she testifies guilty here uh yeah she says that in court she testifies that against jeffrey she says that she wanted to go to ruth's house to show her her new car and it was almost noon they went there uh they said she they talked about her to her about the cookies she made for her bowling league yeah she's making cookies for the bowling league i can't imagine what a nice lady jesus christ cookies for the bowling league. I can't imagine. What a nice lady. Jesus Christ. I won't make cookies for anybody. Yeah, this is for other bowling league members. Crazy.

She says, quote, then Jeffrey asked to use the bathroom. She said that he went into one of the back rooms. I stood up and said, that's not the right room. By the way, she changes her story from her elocution here a little bit, too. Right. She said, that's not the right room. He motioned with his hand like, it's okay. Don't worry about it.

Yeah, I got this. She said that he then returned to the main room, and she asked him to go outside to smoke a cigarette. She asked him what he was doing, and he said that Ruth had money and that he wanted to take it. She said, quote, I said you're not stealing from my great-grandma. Horseshit. Right. Ruth poked him out the door and said, step. Yeah, get out of my apartment. I only get out my i only got one let's go let's go grandmaster move it on that way uh so she said that he agreed not to and they went back

inside then she said that jeffrey said he needed to use the bathroom because he couldn't find it the first time but he went in the back and went into another back bedroom so he said i stood up shared katherine said i stood up to see where he was going and then grandma stood up they said here she says then i heard a thud he came out walking uh grandma down the hall to the living room i guess grandma went in the back room to check on him there he pushed her yeah he was saying that he didn't want to go to jail and that things had gone too far she was backing up toward the chair and he pushed her she fell down on the side of the chair and grabbed it trying to get herself up i said to her that i was sorry and i told jeffrey to leave

her alone he kept repeating that he didn't want to go to jail and that things had gone too far he said then so she said oh you know oh no what's going on this is horrible uh you know obviously she wants no part of this in her testimony. She then says that Jeffrey ordered her to... Now he turns into... He's the man in charge right now. He's the fucking lieutenant now. The man right here. That's right.

She says that ordered her to go outside and turn the car around because he wanted it facing the road. So she says... So she did. Don't kill my grandma. We'll talk about this in a... All right. Kill my grandma and then we'll talk about you not killing my grandma. Yeah. So she says, so she did. Don't kill my grandma. We'll talk about this. All right. Kill my grandma. And then we'll turn the car around.

Killing my grandma. Yeah. Not. Okay, great. And then run to the next door neighbor's house. Knock on the door. Say, call 911. There's a guy killing my fucking grandma in there.

Not. Okay. Go outside and pick up a fucking shovel and come in and whack him in the fucking head with it. Not anything like that. I don't know. Sit in the driveway and hold up stand on the fucking horn till everyone comes out of their house and go what's going on there and then go

there's a guy killing my fucking grandma now something i don't know badass pellet gun and shoot him in the fucking face lots of different ways here for this to go but she chose to do that instead go out and turn the car around she said then she walked in through the garage to the house and she said now she starts crying on the stand too uh big tears she uh she says that she came in there was already a cord around her throat and she was already dead it was darker color uh you know all this she said she fell to the floor and i was crying because i knew my grandma was dead i don't know how this jives with him switching gloves with her midway though i don I don't know. Their story is that's what I mean. There's it's all sorts of.

But that's that's how muddled this is. This is why this is weird. She said he was telling me he wanted to bind her hands and her hands and feet with duct tape. He had a bed sheet and I helped him spread it on the floor. He pulled her by the feet onto the bed sheet and wrapped her up in it. I wasn't doing good. Just crying and crying. He then dragged her through the house to the car that's that's her fucking story she said he could hear she could

hear her thumping down the garage stairs that's the detail she gives uh yeah like you know i wasn't i wasn't helping is what she's saying oh what a terrible noise but that's that's her way that detail is her way of saying see because i wasn't carrying the other side because i'm so innocent and i was i could hear the noise, but I wasn't there. Exactly. It's one of those things. Meanwhile, the back of her head has no... That's not where shit is. So her head didn't...

It's a broken wrist. Yeah, it's a different story. It's from the initial falls and the initial attacks. So, yeah, they said that there was the forensics come into this whole thing uh and in a second also people jeffrey got put in a cell originally he's in a cell and uh he gets a guy gets put in with him who's uh for a guy in with a dui yeah and he sees him he goes are you the guy that

killed your grandma the guy's like and jeffrey told him no my girlfriend did but i was with her and he's like can i get the fuck out of this cell? Are you guys serious? I had three Michelob Ultras. Like, this is fucking asinine. I'm in with this guy with fucking grandma murder. News coverage. That's why I recognize his face.

Holy shit. Yeah, he recognized him from the news. Like, this is crazy. He's like, God damn it. Other people testify in jail saying that uh uh different things one that uh they had a conversation uh with an inmate the first conversation that he had with jeffrey they were watching television and jeffrey asked this inmate if fingerprints could be lifted from clothing or skin just out of the blue hey man do you know if this and this and that he's like what

what do i look like here who do i look like here yeah i don't think so so uh yeah he says uh then he also tells another inmate that he doesn't know what happens what happened at ruth widder's house because he blacked out and when he came to uh you know that was that when he came to she was dead and she's getting killed by katherine that's such a common fucking defense blacked out i. I've got narcolepsy. It happens all the time. Super weird. Just shuts down.

Now, forensics come into this. There's a guy named Gary Veeder. His job description sounds very important. Trace evidence technician at the New York State Police Forensic Identification Center. So that sounds like an official guy. Oh, yeah. He tests the fibers recovered from duct tape and bed sheets and matched them to the black suede gloves. That's his job.

That's the initial forensics that made her plead guilty and flip on Jeffrey because it looked bad for her. They were like, well, they're on your gloves. It's on you. So at this point, you're the lead murderer unless you say it's on him and you switch gloves and then it's on him. That's the way they worked it so uh that's that they didn't do any other fiber comparison because that's all they needed was that big one and police this is what they do and this is going to sound bad and it is kind of stupid but if police find let's say you test one thing and that's the big piece of evidence you don't test anything else no you're not going to go because if you test 10 things

maybe two of them aren't going to be what you want or worse right they contradict the one that's what i mean and even if the eight mean eight out of 10 things mean way more than those two and it's still clear a defense attorney will take those two things and really make a big thing out so you take if you test one and you're one for one fucking sold and done goodbye goodbye we're fucking out they don't want to know anything else yeah it's just it could be bad for you so uh generally you don't and this is just in any contest you don't do things that make your your side weaker right and that goes for defense or prosecution so they don't do anything like that uh they don't test that and everything comes in but they do say about the gloves and all that kind of shit so the verdict comes in here, I mean, she testifies he's there.

It's a pretty damning, vicious testimony. A woman standing up there sobbing, and she had a cardigan on and everything. She sobbed and saying, you know, I could hear the thumping on the garage stairs. Not wonderful. With a handful of tissues dabbing her eye. Oh, she was, too.

I have the picture from the newspaper. She just looks very sad. Jury comes back here. He is found not guilty of felony murder. the newspaper she just looks very sad uh jury comes back here uh he has found uh this is he has found not guilty of felony murder sweet mother not guilty uh he does separately plead to burglary charges on the other thing oh yeah and also burglary charges for ruth because of the ring but not guilty on felony murder charges acquitted of murder charges so he's he pled guilty to stealing her ring no no they find him guilty of stealing so he's he pled guilty to stealing her

ring no no they find him guilty of stealing okay he's charged that's what i mean murder and burglary there they got him on the burglary to burglary of the bowling alley but they're going not guilty on the murder yep he had the ring but katherine was the one that did it and they don't and i don't think i don't think they had a like a lower charge as an option. It was just felony murder or not guilty. And they went with not fucking guilty. So, yeah, Catherine, though, she still pled guilty and she's still there. So at this point, it's all her. Right.

It's all her. Who is the luckiest man alive? Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely here. So he pleads guilty to second degree burglary and he ends up, he'll end up getting a prison sentence out of that, as we'll talk to. God, I want to know how those jurors leaned on that that's crazy i see her telling that story and then just going no it was for sure her i don't know you have to that's a very convincing case a very convincing defense i mean that's she must really come across as a shit witness she must she

must come across as cold on the stand that's all all I could imagine. Even that. Jeffrey says, quote, I apologize to God, society, my family, and the victims in the burglary. That's what he says. I was living a foul lifestyle, and I know it was wrong. Not a word about Ruth. Not a word about, oh, stealing shit out of cars, killing sweet old ladies, you know, stuff like that. I mean, he's not convicted of the murder, but he's certainly convicted of stealing a ring. How about you say, I'm really sorry that I stole from a woman I knew who was dead? Or the bowling alley.

How about Tom from the alley that was bowling a fucking good game? Screwed up his whole deal. Yeah, they stole his regular shoes, Jimmy. He's wearing his bowling shoes. They stole his sneakers. He had a nice pair of New Balances in there. So whatever. Drive home with those

slippery shoes on the pedals. That's right. It was terrible. He died on the way home, Jim. He couldn't break in time. He actually died on the way home. Put slip on the pedal. Couldn't do it.

He hot-wired his car and drove away. Laura Bush blew a stop sign and T-boned him. Plowed right through him. You know how it goes. You know how it goes. So Catherine makes a motion now to withdraw her guilty plea she's like can i take that back because i shouldn't be the only one since he got away with it that's bullshit and they uh they say

no right you can't you're guilty still you still pled guilty it's your word second degree murder sorry about that she pleads guilty with that she also pleads guilty to third degree burglary in connection with the bowling alley robbery. She was there, too. She's there, too. Yeah. So they get that. And the judge says, you, ma'am, may fuck off 20 years in prison for Catherine on this deal here. She made a deal.

That's second degree murder. So she gets that deal. Her stepmom, who now doesn't even have her father around i would feel really bad for her father at that point too like oh jesus christ you know poor bastard i'm sorry okay i didn't tell her to kill your grandma like jesus christ but he's dead so the stepmom says quote i feel the loss of my grandmother every day uh i want nothing to do with her i'm done with her completely done when they ask if they're going to, are you going to, you know,

keep talking to Catherine? And she said, no, she killed my fucking grandma and her dad's dead. So what the fuck would I talk to her for? Yeah. Uh, so she tries to,

she tries to definitely like, uh, she tries to play the victim in the whole thing here. And she says, this is all, you know, this is all, uh,

Jeffrey manipulating her and she's the victim and now he's getting away with it manipulating her even more now and uh yeah it's it's uh the the da murphy says quote ruth wasn't very elderly woman who was having her great-granddaughter and her friend over for a visit not to be robbed and killed yeah no shit uh yeah widder's family looked upon her as a cold and calculated person who manipulated her great-grandmother to steal uh to try and steal jewelry and money and if she had to sacrifice her life to get those things that was how it was going to go cold so no quarter given on that one he can does not like her so september 7 2001 is sentenced four days before 9 11 so

he thinks this is bad. Wait a few days. It's going to be even worse. He's getting sentences, sentenced for burglary. And the judge says. This is a very sad day in September in New York. Yeah. Well, that's my daughter's birthday, September 7, 2001.

That's right. That's when she was born. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty funny. We just mentioned that yesterday. Yeah, in crime and sports. How about that? The same thing came up. It's weird it's very strange uh so she uh he says uh the judge says you sir

may fuck off uh he gets seven years in prison uh but he's gonna serve four the uh his lawyer says quote he'll be home in four years in a couple of months he'll be doing his two and a half years post-supervision release through a big toothy smile yeah through a big got away with murder smile uh so then yeah he he accepts all of that shit uh originally they offered him a 15 year sentence for the burglary and then they offered him 10 and then they offered him eight and then he originally and then he ends up with seven so he held out and got lucky he got half the sentence he would have here 2004 katherine tries to appeal and on the appeal she says that uh she wasn't in the house to commit the crime so it's a prerequisite for second degree murder and uh but the fact that they remember they that little legal wrangling where they had to iron out

whether she was in the house unlawfully or not and she said she was that when during her plea well that comes up ouch that's the reason why they said that's the reason why they dot the i's and cross the t's on that one to uh make sure that that you can't do that so they go no you said it you're fucking done sorry uh so 2005 in february again there's another appeal this one's more technical this is on the grounds that she says the court abused their discretion by denying her to withdraw her plea deal and they go no they're pretty cool with it it's fine we're pretty happy with their decision to not let you do that you fucking suck so that's fine she's back in there again there is a dissenting justice on this appeal saying that they kind of almost like the state set her up as their premise

uh set her up and then fucked her over and kind of swept her under the rug but it doesn't matter because that's only a dissenting opinion i can see why he would say that but she fucking pled to try to get out of it to try to get away with yeah that they yeah that's the thing man she thought jeffrey was going to to death row yeah that's exactly right she would too so she was thrilled as fuck probably right before his sentence oh yeah she thought she was not guilty she thought she was gonna yeah he's gonna get fucking life and all i'm getting is fucking 20 this is great yeah and then she's like oh wait hold on he's gonna be out when i'm in here still so uh his his lawyer cheryl coleman this is jeffrey's lawyer she describes katherine as

quote the single most frightening sociopath i've ever met god damn it's like kind of off the record and to not in court this is to the to a press person that person was almost in the military james and that yeah this person is a uh like a public defender no no and they haven't seen a more frightening sociopath right and that woman, that sociopath, was almost in the military. Oh, yeah. Almost an officer in charge of other people. Right.

And going to war-torn countries and giving orders of what to do. Oh, fuck that. Just any of her subordinates. Jesus, she'd be horrible to people. As a drill sergeant. She'd be sadistic, I think. She'd be wrong.

Hazing people. Givin' footlockers up your ass. There you go. What do you think of that boy is that a jelly donut in there I'm gonna jam the whole thing up your ass you're gonna sit here and eat it while everyone else okay

right up your ass so 2007 Jeffrey is released on parole he's out wow that was fast he's the fuck out of there he's done Catherine not released on parole Jeffrey He's the fuck out of there. Oh, boy. Yeah, he's done. Catherine, not released on parole. No. Jeffrey, only a couple months out of prison.

He's a fucking idiot. Don't worry, he goes right back. He's convicted of burglary again. Oh, my God. He didn't fucking learn a lesson? Well, he did it differently, but dumber somehow. He broke in with Saratoga Springs Restaurant. He broke in through the ceiling, dropped down, landed.

All the alarms went off. Yeah. And he looked around and saw cameras everywhere and heard the alarms go off and then ran away without stealing anything. Fuck. Burglary. Prison. Thwarted.

Thwarted. Didn't even get any of the, even like the mints by the hostess stand. Nothing. Got nothing from this place. Idiots. Run in the freezer, grab a steak. He got stand. Nothing. Got nothing from this place. Idiots. Run in the freezer, grab a steak. You got shit. You didn't get a goddamn thing.

So, yeah, they convict him of that. They send him back to prison because he's a goddamn idiot. Right. Now, May 23rd, 2008, a guy named Gary Veeder hangs himself. Remember that name? Is that familiar? He's the forensic guy. Gloves guy.

He hangs himself in his garage. Oh, boy. Who cares, right? Who cares Gloves guy. He hangs himself in his garage. Oh, boy. Who cares, right? Who cares if some fucking state nerd hangs himself in his garage? Well, there's a reason why he hung himself in his garage. Why'd he do it? He is under huge heat for falsifying tons and tons and tons and tons of casework. You asshole.

He doesn't even know how to do the shit, basically. And neither does anybody else in this department it's fucking crazy uh there's a report found substandard work went undetected because the agency wasn't equipped to even review their own work at all either they can't even tell that they know how the supervisors didn't know how to the reviewers the people who were set to look to oversee other people's work they didn't know how to do the work either so nobody knew what they were doing what everyone just went it's right right that's about right this is why you have to have bosses that have the fucking experience have done the job uh yeah they say that he falsified records to conceal his fraudulent work he was assigned to the trace evidence unit of the state police's forensic investigation center

in albany that examines you know minorly slightly important things like fibers arson residue footwear impressions glass hair and other trace evidence gathered at criminal investigations. He's got to testify to what it is and what it proves. You know that whole thing that spawned like 47 fucking television series of just crime scene investigations? He's faked all of that shit. All the acronym shows. He started it. Faked it all.

God damn it. Didn't know how to do it. He was the guy with the microscope and he didn't know what the hell he was doing. He was. They said that they found problems in twenty nine percent of his three hundred and twenty two cases. Oh, that's that's a hundred cases right there. That's a hundred cases.

The office. They had to contact the offices of more than 40 district attorneys around the state to tell them you're about to have a real bad fucking week because, you know, all those cases you have, all those convictions, they're all going to be appealing now because all of your forensics are fucked and even the the uh you know the 71 percent that aren't fucked up they're tainted too hell yeah if he touched it it's tainted oh boy is it if he ever falsified if he knowingly falsified something didn't just fuck something up by accident right knowingly didn't do something and said he did that you're done that's it all of your cases are suspect now

uh so yeah there's a ton of them here the report said that he quote routinely failed to conduct required tests when examining fiber evidence then falsely indicated in test records that he had performed the test uh so that is crazy they did an outside audit and learned that uh his basically his misconduct the assertions of that were pushed under the rug because the people didn't know how to even check his work so it was crazy the examiner pressed veder about a questionable report involving a fiber analysis can you imagine like at a golf club and people were like what are you doing he's like you are not going to believe what they pay me to do. This is crazy. I don't do anything.

Not a god. I say I do shit. They said when they, a particular fiber sample they questioned him on, they said, quote, Vitor was unable to explain how he obtained the aberrant result. The assessor also noted that Vitor was unable to articulate or perform basic tasks in fiber analysis, including proper operation of a microscope. A fucking microscope. Are you kidding?

He doesn't even know how to work the microscope. All he does is look in it. Did you ever watch CSI and all that shit? All they do is look in microscopes. He doesn't even know how to fucking use it. This is crazy. Unreal. He says, quote, this is how I was trained to do it.

This is how we've always done it. They said that he does a practice known as dry labbing, which sounds like it hurts your butthole. It does sound gross. You got to trim your pucker brush up for that to get dry labbed. Otherwise, it's really going to hurt.

It's going to tear that out. Yeah, that is basically saying you perform tests that you didn't perform. It's called dry lab hurt. It's going to tear that out. Yeah, that is basically saying you perform tests that you didn't perform. It's called dry labbing. He also told investigators that he didn't even actually know how to conduct most of the tests that he claimed to have been conducting and performing and having analysis and results for. And instead, he would rely on a, quote, crib sheet that had been provided for him by the prior supervisor of the trace unit. So several people didn't know what they've been doing, I've just been passing along a, a cheat sheet,

a cheat sheet notes. And no one knows how to do it. Crime scene investigation. Yep. This is how I was trained to do it. This is how we've always done it. We falsified shit. He's accused of falsifying dozens of criminal shit.

And so he hangs himself in his fucking garage. Yeah. Uh, prosecutor here says, quote, I relied on Gary Vita without knowing what was discovered by the state inspector general. But like everybody else did, you think the guy with all the microscopes would fucking know how to use one? Probably, you know, just a thing here.

So, yeah. Meanwhile, Catherine's still in prison. And this and he's the guy who examined the fibers on the gloves, which were the only reason why she pled guilty. So now she has an actual she has an appeal to stand on now yeah this is something you can up to because his his theory and his uh what he information he brought forth isn't even the the story that she told anyway you know what i mean it doesn't even contradicts what she said exactly yet it's still gonna ruin everything exactly that's fucked up the whole thing. Exactly. Yet it's still going to ruin everything. Exactly. That's fucked up. The whole thing's a disaster.

Yeah, it's a mess. This is why dishonesty sucks. So now Jeffrey's back out of prison. St. Patrick's Day, 2010. He's out drinking in the streets. That's what they do. He's out with his friends. When a group of his friends get in a dispute, a big argument.

How many times has he shot? With a group of other people. You're dispute and a big argument with how many times has he shot with a group of other people you're getting excited aren't you okay the two groups are separated okay uh so jeffrey gets in the passenger seat of his friend's car his friend gets in the driver's seat his friend's dad is in the back seat of his friend's nissan maxima he's the grandmaster on the passenger seat let's go motherfuckers co-puckers. Co-pilot. Here we go. Jumps in. They jump on it, peel out, speed out of the parking lot, and plow right into a 27-year-old young man who's in the street. Oh, no.

And kill him instantly. He's dead on the scene. Oh, God. 27-year-old man named Ryan Rossley is pronounced dead there. You thought I was going to say they pull out in front of a bus and are all- 27-foot bus. K killed in a fire explosion. The 27 year old innocent man. This is one of the guys that they were in a fight with.

And apparently this guy, they hit him. He flew over the car, landed in the street, never got up because he hit his head on the street. They stopped. The driver stops the car. They told Jeffrey to get out and look and see what's going on with this guy. Jeffrey got out, looked, and said, oh, he's getting up. It's fine. Let's go.

Go, go. Let's go. The grandmaster. Get the fuck out. Yeah. Motherfucker. He said that because they had been fighting earlier and shit, he didn't think that that guy would even call the cops, even though they hit him with a car.

Because in the movies, you hit a guy with a car, and he lands, and he brushes his jacket off. He's like, Jesus Christ, that was a pain in the ass the ass but in real life when you fly up in the air and then hit your head on concrete you die because your skull doesn't work like that so uh yeah so this guy's dead now it's not jeffrey's fault he's not driving but he's so stupid somehow he involves himself legally in this in a way that'll send him get him sent to prison he decides to try to get the guy's windshield and car fixed to cover the whole thing up

and is charged with evidence tampering. Idiot. Fucking complete idiot because everything's on camera, obviously. He's a moron. All he had to do was call the cops and say he hit him and I wanted nothing to do with it. Not a damn thing.

It's an accident. Right. Because that's what his friend says. His friend was like, it's an accident. I killed him. You know, Jesus Christ. That's that's how it works.

There's witnesses that see this whole thing. I mean, it wasn't like they were going to get away with this at all. They said that there were several physical encounters and they drove away. The driver of the car said, quote, I thought somebody threw a boulder at us where they hit the car. It was it was actually Ryan Rossley. And then he stopped and said, we hit somebody. And Jeffrey Hampshire said, go, go, go. Let's get the hell out of here.

And he twirled his baton in the air and he fucking went. So he told him he's getting up. He's getting up. And the guy, this is the driver, he says, quote, Jeff saw the guy get up. So everything was cool. We figured they're not going to call the police because we had been fighting earlier. So, you know, no harm, no foul foul sometimes you hit a guy with a car when people are injured you're definitely calling the cops and paramedics nope this guy does he uh so this is how this works this is all

for evidence tampering uh now the the problem is he could because he's got so many felonies he could potentially get like 20 years out of this jeffrey because it's like a continuing polonius lifestyle basically it's it's showing a track record on a pattern of a man not learning a fucking lesson he's saying in the press and his lawyers are saying that he's going to get an unfair sentence because he didn't get convicted in that murder so they're saying basically he's going to get oj'd where they're going to really bang him on that vegas thing because he got away with nicole kidman and they did or nicole kidman nicole brown ron goldman you're right you're like yeah you're welcome keith urban for uh oj sparing her life i am fucking tired here uh so yeah this whole thing happens uh jeffrey here uh is but you know his obviously his his defense attorney is

saying that they're gonna fuck him over and all this sort of thing uh but he ends up being convicted of evidence tampering uh he is going to get a two to four year sentence out of this wow that's all he gets now the driver of the car because he drove away he ends up uh he ends up getting manslaughter, and it's a five to 15 years sentence for that guy. It's steep. It's steep, and he pleads guilty of the whole thing. Five to 15 years for a guy. It's Travis Carroll is his name. And then Jeffrey, though, like I said, gets two to four years.

For changing a windshield. For changing out a windshield. Something he did not have to do. He didn't have to do it. All of his stupidity, it's all self-inflicted, his wounds, everything. His lawyer says that this is amazing, says that, I've been defending Jeffrey Hampshire for years. First of all, bad sign.

You know how many times I've gone to trial with this guy? He says that he's defended him a lot in the past and says that Hampshire is a very different guy now, and he's grown a lot in the years that she's known him. She says, quote, I'm confident he's never going to do anything nefarious again. Quote, I believe that his serious crimes are over. Oh, boy. It's going to kick it down to some light misdemeanors now. You know, just a couple of DUIs.

How many times has a lawyer said about you, I've defended him for years? Years and years and years jesus christ uh so the uh rossley family wanted more time for jeffrey the mother says quote he doesn't learn he has no moral compass obviously clearly not i would have to fucking agree with that spinning yeah i would say so and the judge too is not happy with jeffrey he does say i basically uh uh yeah he says uh i could not bring myself to do that as a class E felony. As sorry as I feel about the Rossley family and everything that happened. He said what he did wasn't, he didn't kill the guy. So he's not, evidence tampering is not going to give a guy 20 years in jail.

He just couldn't do it, basically. That's what they were asking for. And he said, can't do it. He's a scumbag, but we got to keep busting him maybe next time basically and the mother says i guess justice has been served as much as it can be which is fine uh yeah you know as long as she's not upset about it here so katherine is appealing may of 2011 this is her appeal for gary veder dying saying what the fuck the guy doesn't even know how to do anything she's got a point here uh she's got a point on this appeal. Yeah, I'm certainly on her side. No one can argue.

Yeah, no one can argue this one, even though we fucking hate her because she killed her goddamn great grandmother, which totally sucks. I'm just saying if I'm in her shoes, I hope that I get some leniency, too, because the state's got no case. Yeah, you can't convict people on bullshit. That's true. But she definitely did it. So that's what sucks.

They said her lawyer or the judge here says the existence of the forensic evidence or shit that's true uh but she definitely did it so that's what sucks uh they said the her lawyers are the judge here says the existence of the forensic evidence or the forensic report appears to have been the deciding factor in the decision to plead guilty rather than go to trial uh her conviction is set aside for now uh now the da says that they're they might try and try her again let's see maybe we'll try her again maybe we'll get her for her life this right you know well who knows uh we'll see there's a delay for the first time because she pled last time that's the thing maybe we can try her since they set aside the conviction but they now they have no forensic evidence that was their main thing so now they have no forensic evidence they have jeffrey's not going to testify on there before on for them against her he wants

nothing to do with it all they have is her going i didn't do shit now and you know she's her saying my testimony was based on forensic evidence it's bullshit so it's very murky so uh they don't know what to do here they're they're uh she's in court by the way now she's saying how religious she is all of a sudden of course she is only in court though no other time no uh she says quote i'm sorry for all my actions and inactions which contributed to all of your pain and suffering i offer this to you not as an excuse but as an explanation as to the questions you've had for all these years saying that she was a part of it uh yeah she says that oh this is amazing she says that uh i would not be able to go she's oh jesus i'm sorry in 2000 she was i she said i was a naive little 18 year old girl that's what she says no you weren't no you weren't and the judge says you ma'am may fuck off again

14 and a half years but uh time served oh boy is a problem yeah out of a 14 and a half year sentence she's already served you know uh like, which is way more than she should serve for 14 years. And so she's basically already done. God damn it. She will be released in July. That's in May of 2012. And she's going to be released in July with time served while she's been in prison. Her mother just died recently as well as her father. Again, shame.

I'm sure it's her dad. Both parents are dead. Like I said, it's all her fucking. I mean, she didn't get to see him. It's her fucking fault. Shouldn't be killing her goddamn grandmother. I have um like i said it's all her fucking i mean she didn't get to see him it's her fucking fault shouldn't be killing her goddamn grandmother i have no sympathy for her what's so fucking ever i hate what the state did with the evidence but you killed an old lady like i don't have any any sympathy for you yeah at all furtherance of the crime we caused her death yeah old ladies and kids fuck off i don't care what you did shit bag uh so she gets out on parole and the parole

program there is a post-release program that oversees uh her and helps her find housing and everything like that uh she gets involved in some kind of program she is moved they move her because i mean she's got to get out of this area yeah everyone knows who she is in this area aren't you that lady who killed her grandma? Hey, how are you? What's her name? Asshole. Yeah.

Not okay. Her name's Catherine. Catherine what? Oh, no. Oh, boy. Not you. Grandma killer, Ceeber. Okay.

I know that one. So they move her down to Astoria, Queens, where she gets a job at an electric company as an office manager, and she just kind of starts her life over, gets an apartment down there, starts over no grandma killing uh no grandma killing uh everything's fine gotcha never never like it never happened clean slate she finds and she starts dating yeah she finds a boyfriend yeah and no dead dead serious here a guy named pedro sanchez yeah uh she finds i know where you're going girl from girl from Idaho where Napoleon Dynamite was filmed and she's dating Pedro Sanchez. Pedro Sanchez.

Wonderful. Which is pretty hilarious. She didn't even get to see that movie. And yet this still worked out. She's like, what now? Why is this funny? Why is everyone laughing at me all the time? Why does everybody say that?

This is so stupid. Why? Why does everybody ask about his hair this is so strange so she's out of prison yeah um she is you know new job new life never happened hasn't killed anybody but god damn it she's such an asshole you gotta root against her so she's going out with this pedro sanchez guy they're together for about 10 months yeah one day they get in an argument over she thinks he's seeing somebody else and he thinks she's seeing somebody else and so they get in an argument with

each other and he stabs her a hundred times in the face hundred times in the face yes you grandma killing asshole yeah i'm sorry i understand what we're saying here. Listen to me. We are the most against domestic violence ever. We have found literally how many billions of trillions of people have lived on this earth. We've found the one time in the history of humankind where domestic violence works. It did it. It solved the problem. One time.

And only time. It'll never happen again. 5,000 time and only time it'll never happen again 5 000 years from now it'll never happen again this is the only time where everyone goes yeah okay i hope he goes to jail but jesus christ he did the right thing that's what i mean now to say this we have done this as a live show a few times, this case. And every single time, without fail, the entire crowd erupts in applause. She got stabbed in the face 100 times. And this is a crowd of 70% women who are like, yay, domestic violence. Fuck that.

That's how much of an asshole she is. They're like, I'm glad her boyfriend stabbed her in the face. She gives us a bad name. It's crazy. That's how much of a dick she is. And she's so hateable for killing her fucking old lady she's just hateable oh it feels so good uh so yeah he kills her 100 times she's dead 100 times in the face and torso with a kitchen knife oh just literally they're in an argument he grabbed a knife out of the out of the out of the block and just started hacking away at it she chopped a green pepper

with that yeah and then it sunk in her face done all over it a hundred times so this happened the last she's seen about noon is the last she's seen and then about five o'clock one of the neighbors says they hadn't seen her but they do see pedro come in and out of the apartment quickly or out of the apartment then back into the apartment covered in blood i mean to the elbows covered in blood all over his shirt like you would be if one stabbed somebody a hundred fucking times as it happens so this guy uh the the person who sees us the neighbor goes over looks in their apartment window and sees uh pedro fucking like sees a catherine's corpse and seas of blood, and Pedro, like, cleaning up puddles of blood, washing a knife,

trying to wash blood off himself, you know, the whole deal. And this person just starts filming it with their phone through the window. Because this is 2012 here. World star. Yeah, they're just filming. So Pedro ends up coming out with garbage bags full of shit to throw out and finds the person filming so now this person's standing there filming him covered to the elbows and blood with these bloody bags pedro drops the bags punches this guy in the

fucking face snatches his cell phone and runs away okay yeah fucking runs away all right it is at that exact moment of contact of bone on bone that a police officer just walking his beat turns the corner and watches a man spinning a baton covered in blood up to his elbows drop two bloody garbage bags punch a person in the face take their cell phone and run away so you know this is kind of this is go time for a cop this is the you know this is this is what they're trained to do here this is their world series so he fucking chases pedro down the street eventually catches him tackles him uh you know cops him up and takes the evidence of the cell phone out of his hand and all that kind of shit pedro is arrested and uh charged with all sorts of murder wow yeah he's uh he's definitely arrested here second degree murder third degree

robbery criminal possession of a weapon tampering with physical evidence criminal possession of stolen property and of course resisting arrest you know surprised didn't have a bike with some sweet pegs i hate that fucking movie so uh yeah he ends up he's gonna be in prison or an institution or something because he's not right in the fucking head i have a feeling yeah now see they talked to katherine's boss at work and katherine's boss said quote she told me she was having some problems with him the understatement of the year and then the boss also said quote i said be careful there's a lot of weird people out there and uh yes they discovered one she is one of them the da murphy that guy yeah fucking this guy holy

shit he ends up saying quote it's it's sad especially in her context but i can't say i'm surprised she was troubled her whole life he's not sad not see not even surprised just not troubled her whole life step in the face that see not even surprised just not troubled her whole life step in the face that complete fuck up i could see it i saw it when she was a teenager i said someone's gonna stab her a hundred times in the face someday i mean i wish i could do it but i can't obviously uh so yeah that's how it works there uh ruth is dead gary veder's dead katherine sieber's dead jeffrey hampshire might as well be dead let's face it he he's never gonna go more than a couple years without being in prison he may not be dead but his future oh it's

fucking on life support at some point he's going to do something that's going to put him in for a good amount of time and you know hopefully it won't be something uh that's on anybody else right yeah hopefully it'll be a property thing or he'll you know burn down an abandoned uh an abandoned structure that'll get him some time or something. And one of the rafters falls and blocks the door and he can't get out. That'd be wonderful. He just burns up. Jesus. Catherine's buried in Idaho, which is like being murdered twice.

Shit. That's definitely two deaths to be buried in Rexburg, Idaho. She's buried next to her mom, though. She has the same, you know, they share a tombstone with their mom, which you don't want to do at that age that's not great uh so but d the murphy guy the da who says you know troubled her whole life he becomes a judge for christ's sake really yeah he became a judge which i find interesting but the most interesting thing out of all this is we always do this and we never on crime and sports we never do this here but i found somebody that is i feel

so bad for this fucking person her name it's on linkedin her name is katherine sieber this poor woman she looks sort of like katherine sieber like the same type of of look same face office manager at an electric company in astoria queens i mean it is she comes right up she fits every parameter the only reason you know it's not her is because this woman went to a college and Catherine didn't and she's alive. That'll change. That's the other thing. And otherwise, that is it.

Unless that person is an identity theft. Absolutely. So that is Stillwater, New York, everybody. We told you there was a twist at the end. I hope you didn't turn it off before that. But that's the twist. Hope you enjoyed that story. If you did, I think I have an idea of how you can tell us about it.

James, that is the best story that we've done. It's one of them. It's got everything. Just in terms of riveting, fascinating. Start to finish. Didn't have to. T to B, babe. Everything.

T to B. Top to bottom. It's got it all. two t to b babe everything top to bottom it's fucking it's got it all it starts out with a dead body and ends with a fucking stabbing and a police chase and benny hill music playing his fucking it's terrible and i wish it didn't happen yeah but it's riveting fucking yeah that cop you know yakety sax came on when that cop started chasing him if if not like they ran around in a circle twice in the street if not the opening to like 21 jump something yeah it's fucking sad something hyping him up it was certainly something making fun of the whole situation right so yeah if you like that

get on apple podcast that purple icon let us know about it give us five stars tell us your following instructions tell them these guys are forcing me to it doesn't matter also. Also, those reviews help a lot on Stitcher, too. They help drive us up the charts, which is really important. That's kind of your currency as a podcaster, as your chart position, and that's how people look at you for your whatever, advertisers and everything else. It really helps us. So you can help us a lot by doing that. And head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com for all of your small-town murder and crime and sports needs.

And listen to Crime and Sports if you're not listening to it. We are in a golden time of crime and sports right now. It's awesome. Amazing stuff. It's coming out. They're just so good. And this week, if you like murder, we have a murder story for you this week. It's crazy.

Check it out. Brain damage sports, murder, drugs, craziness, all sorts of wildness there. So check that out and also get your merchandise and get your uh your your code for your promo code for the pre-sale there you get your goddamn tickets because tickets guys if it's thursday and you're listening tickets are on sale if it's 10 o'clock a.m or later in your area, then your tickets are on sale. You can go get them right now, pre-sale tickets. You just need to go to shutupandgivememurder.com slash live to get the promo code, or you can go over to our social media and get it there.

But we'll tell you now anyway. Promo code is puckerbrush. There you go. Not case sensitive. Right. So whatever you want to do, puckerbrush. There you go. Everyone knows how to spell puckerbrush. One word. So uh enjoy that pre-sale will go on sale today it's a one-day pre-sale the on sale

for everybody is going to be friday december the 13th on sale for everybody total everyone can buy tickets at any point no no holds barred no holds barred no holds barred go get them let's do it so uh we have that get your goddamn tickets and uh we have the full list for you right now there is a couple that are going to be missing off of this list that uh will that we are going to get like there's no phoenix show on here not yet there's going to be two phoenix shows we're going to have a crime and sports and a small town murder in 2020 in Phoenix. That's just, it's our local market. We book it differently with the guy.

It's very easy for us to book those. They love us. It's a different thing. That's our home club. So, I mean, we don't have to worry about a big schedule. It's a mutual love. Yes, we love them. They love us. It's wonderful.

Casey. Thank you. Casey Currier, the best goddamn. He should teach lessons. I want to get every venue we go to. Even if it's a good venue, I want to take the manager in a headlock and make him watch Casey for a week. Not even a mean one. Just a friendly headlock. Do that.

You don't move. Watch him. Watch him. Right. He's doing it right. When he threatens firing, listen to why. Yeah. If you go to a comedy club in Phoenix, it will be run correctly.

We promise you that. Or at least the three he has a goddamn hand in will be run run properly or else he will have someone's ass we guarantee you that shit he doesn't have their ass uh he'll have their job holding their last paycheck yeah he'll be having their job as well be out of here and uh that's how it works but here is the list of cities and dates and also there's a couple i think kansas city and st louis aren't in here but we are going to kansas city and st louis they're just working out the venue at the moment, so we'll get back to you with those. Those will be on sale very shortly,

Kansas City and St. Louis, and we'll add probably a couple more we'll sprinkle in, but here's the basic list. February 7th, Denver, Colorado, Oriental Theater. February 8th, Salt Lake City, The Depot. February 15th, Indianapolis, Indiana at the Egyptian. Holy shit, we're going indiana february 16th louisville kentucky fucking hunter thompson muhammad ali jim cornett wonderful place

there march 13th and 14th we're in san francisco both nights at cobs comedy theater there and we're gonna do that it's a friday and saturday night we're gonna do the late show both nights right come party with us fucking late night man we'll be i mean jimmy will be already drinking like crazy hammer i'll have come from a weed lounge yeah definitely you'll have what have come from the weed lounge oh i will be okay yeah i enjoy mo greens there it's a very fucking nice nice establishment that i like to visit in san francisco i'll be spending evenings there i'll will have come. I'll be in residence there. From the green. I'll have come from there.

All right. That's how I get there. You're saying it in a fancy way. Yes. March, in a correct way, March 27th in Detroit, Michigan,

March 28th and 29th will be at Bogart's in Cincinnati. Both two nights there. 7th and 8th in Nashville, Zaney's, that's Crime and Sports and Small Town Murder. Both of those are sold out. May 8th in Nashville. Zany's. That's Crime and Sports and Small Time Murder. Both of those are sold out. May 8th in Austin, Texas. May 9th in Oklahoma City.

May 22nd at the Wilbur in Boston again. Back there. One of the best. Very excited to come back to Boston. May 23rd in Brooklyn at Murmur in New York there. So we're going to have a blast there. Love coming back to New York as always. June 5th in Seattle, Washington.

Back at the neptune which is a great theater june 6th and 7th at port in portland at the aladdin there uh july 31st will be in new orleans yeah new city alert never been never been to new orleans will be in new orleans on july 30 in the middle of humidity hell wonderful that's great fucking wow bring your hurricane august 1st in Atlanta. Jesus Christ. Back at the Buckhead. It's a wonderful theater, though, with very strong air conditioning.

So you can make your way in there. August 14th, San Jose, California, at the Improv there. August 15th, back in Sacramento. Again, September 11th, we are in... Where are we at in Sacramento? Ace of Spades. Yeah, it's a little club there. A little rock venue.

September 11th, we will be in Tampa, Florida, the Tampa Improv, doing two shows that night. And then the next night, September 12th, Orlando, at the Orlando Improv. How many? Two shows that night. And they will be different shows. Everybody, if it's the city next to you,

it's going to be a different show. Like Texas, where we have San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Houston you it's going to be a different show like texas where we have san antonio austin dallas houston those are going to be four different shows right but the show in oklahoma city will be one of those four shows got it so if you go to all four of those shows and the one in oklahoma city you're going to see one of the same show twice so don't complain that's all i'm saying we're going to have four different we're going to have four shows we're going to rotate and keep them basically so. Try to not make anything near anybody be the same.

That's how we're going to work this thing. I like it. So, yeah, that's how that works. San Diego, September 25th. L.A., we're going to be in Bray at the Bray Improv, September 27th. L.A., somewhere September 26th. We don't know the venue yet. October 9th, Washington.

Actually, it's not D.C. It's Silver Spring, Maryland. That's right. Silver Spring at the Fillmore where we were this last time. The first time. It's a great venue. It is. Way nicer than the other one.

The 930 Club's beautiful, but it's more of a pain to get to. Right. Silver Spring's out in the Burbs. It's easy to get to. 930 Club's beautiful. We weren't disparaging. It's a nice place. Philadelphia.

Fuck yeah. October 10th. Back in Philly at the Fillmore there again. We had a great time there last year or fucking a month ago. October 22nd in San Antonio. October 24th in Dallas. October 25th in Houston. Back at the Houston Improv. We will be at the Majestic in Dallas.

Yeah. Which is fucking huge. So please buy your Dallas tickets up because we got to sell that bad boy. It's going to be a big deal. Milwaukee on November 6th. Let's go to Milwaukee. Let's go to Wisconsin in November and fucking New Orleans in July, everybody.

Let's do this. We are in Wisconsin. Milwaukee at the Pabst, which is another big theater there. And November 7th, we're in Madison. Coming to Madison. New place at the Barrymore Theater there. November 7th.

November 19th, Munhall, PA, which is Pittsburgh. we're in madison coming to madison new place at the barrymore theater there november 7th november 19th uh munhall pa which is pittsburgh right there will be it's a bit we're going to be at a theater carnegie of homestead music hall i guess it's called that's going to be a bigger place yeah that's uh we love pittsburgh great crowd can't wait november 20th uh in cleveland at hilarity somehow we got fucking back in cleveland i don't know how they talked us into that. That was not voluntary. November 21st in Columbus at the Davidson. I think that's where we were last time.

Gorgeous theater there. We'll be at Hilarity's in Cleveland. Governor upstairs. Governor right upstairs. December 4th in Minneapolis, because that's when you want to go to Minnesota. But we don't give a shit, because those people are so fucking nice. And they're happy when you're there in the cold. So we can't wait to see you back at the Pantages like we were last year.

Beautiful theater. We had a great time there. Finally, rounding out December 5th, we will be in Chicago, Illinois. Back. We always close our shit out in Chicago. That's kind of our adopted second hometown. What about one unannounced so far with two cities? What weekend is that?

We don't know what weekend it is, but that's going to be Kansas City-St. Louis. There you go. And bigger and better venues than last time. Kansas City, we're not sure which it's going to be. Kansas City was great. That was great. The improv was fantastic. St. Louis will be a better venue, we swear to God, because people's fucking nutsacks

were on mantles after that. Trust me. Fucking trust me. Believe me. sacks were on mantles after that trust me fucking trust me believe me we do not deal with venues not that we don't care with for very much we will we light them up bad somebody that didn't matter to the entire venue called me the little one yeah that's how that works thank you yeah fuck that place so come out and see us also guys that's if you have questions for us you gotta imagine we're releasing this and we have a

good amount of listeners and a lot of people on social media imagine can you just think back imagine the dumb questions people are going to ask us on social media think about that now when you ask your question just think is this a dumb question i'm serious because sarah's got a feel all of these and so let's just like today asked, do you have a show in this city? It's on the list, on the post of the fucking thing. And we want you to come. But you have to at least have enough initiative to read a list. You can't just go, do you have it?

And then she said, yes, we're at this theater. And then they said, what date? How about look up at the list again? But I mean, I get it. I don't get mad. But it's, what time? Yeah, just look at the list and? But I mean, I get it. I don't get mad, but it's... What time? Yeah, just look at the list and try to figure it out on your own

for like two minutes. How does that hold, James? Yeah. Try to figure it out on your own for a couple minutes before... Wait, how do I get there? The reason that I say this is because the dumb questions like that,

they clog up the works. Right. And then questions that you actually can't find the answer to unless we tell you, they don't get found because it's in a bunch of... Are you at this city when it's on a list you're not telling me if the bridge is under construction that's what i mean let's all we're a community we're a community let's fucking be a community and not ask questions that don't need to be asked and save it for people

who who do need it if you have a little cut on your fingers put a band-aid on it there's people with gunshot wounds you don't need to be in the emergency room. That's all we're saying. Stop dripping blood everywhere. It's inconvenient. That's it. Otherwise, no. We're happy to talk to you, and we're excited that you come to the show. We can't wait for all those shows.

We're very excited. And that said, also, you can go, if you want to be one of our producers, because we have to give our shout-outs here, our list of our favorite people ever, our producers. If you want to be one of our producers, one of these wonderful people, you can do that very easily by going over to patreon.com slash crimeinsports or head over to PayPal and use our email address, crimeinsports at gmail.com.

And you can find both of those links right from shutupandgivememurder.com. And we are just blown away by every cent that is received. And it means a lot to us we know it just means it's a it's like just like a personal endorsement right means the world to us that you would care and go out of your way you telling us that we're okay yeah when it's free and you don't have to so that's that's just fucking amazing so thank you very much and we love you for that and we have a list of these fine people jimmy you know what i need that list give me the list now

fucking hit me with it like a toyota corolla out of a parking lot this week's executive producers are neilu robson johnny uh tanya volanek uh robin bell reed uh and it's rob uh manorhan and uh bell reed they were the ones from australia that missed uh missed the meet and greet because the yeah the ridiculous ridiculous but the the whatever greet because the... Yeah, ridiculous. Ridiculous. But the... Whatever, you get the point. We were not told that you were there. Put it that way.

If you were, trust me, if someone crosses a fucking ocean to see us, we'll talk to them. I got no problem saying hello. Super happy. We'll go out of our way to go find you and bring you in. I've done it twice. Yeah, no one fucking asked us that.

Can you imagine somebody coming up and going, hey, we have two people. They flew all the way from Australia. Will you talk to them? Us going, fuck no. We're leaving now. We got places to be. No, we had nowhere to go.

We were fine. We would have absolutely done that. The rest of the executive producers are Brielle Chapman. I think that's Chapman. It is. Gary Howard. Kristen Parker. Kyle Carson.

Michelle Ann Gant. Sabrina Crawford. Casey. Damn it, Casey. kyle carson uh michelle ann gantt sabrina crawford uh casey uh damn it casey oh my i'm a terrible writer and your last name is tomton that's it t-l-m-t-e-n uh jordan bennett janna gilbertson and andrew hertig thank you guys so so so much i really appreciate it uh bob helscher or holscher uh was supposed to be at our chicago show and he passed away oh no and did not make it but uh faisal wanted us to say hello uh so sorry i mean sorry bob yeah do we say that i don't know what to say i don't know we we missed you i wish sucks that bob died yeah i wish i would have been

able to meet you bob yeah uh and he loved the show he was a big fan uh darren mihal and jessica soap uh celebrated their one yearyear anniversary, and they met through our show. That's amazing. Congratulations. And they came up from Florida. So cool. Thank you.

Thanks for coming to the show. Jesse Hartman, Emily Smith, Monica Lee Wolfenberger, Anthony Cannella, Purple Heart Carrot, Purple Carrot Designs, Jen Sneedacker, Tracy Renninger, Steven Rude, Gail Smith, Jessica Christensen. They're the ones that had the daughter, Joey. Joey, I got to give it to you, too. I got to show it to you. Joey made us a thank you card.

Oh, that's so cool. For us telling her. Oh, I can't wait. We sent her a message, right? Yeah. A video. Yeah, we were talking about it. And we talked about it on the show.

I don't remember how we did that, but we talked about it on the show. We cared. Yeah. I know we gave a shit that Joey made a quick recovery. And she sent us a little a little card that was so nice trina mcelroy sunny joe hansen lauren demirath uh shy moon liz kujuski deanna grimes andrea webster caitlin williams peyton meadows mark foster joshua jean yeah uh liz vasquez who uh got ripped off and still made the show because of Gary Howard.

Hey, cool. Thank you. Yeah. And thanks, Gary. Absolutely. Kelly Higbee, Barbara Drabino or Drabina, Nate, Nick's father. I think that's what that was. I believe so. Nate Ward, James, James Martyr, Emily Irvin, Alicia, Alicia Wangland, Wangland. Alicia Wanglin, Mark Davis, Janet Cunningham, Ashley with no last name, who said that she was looking forward to my shout-out specific for her, that her last name's really easy, and then she didn't provide it. That's really easy. Jimmy, pronounce my last name. I'm not going to tell you what it is.

So now I have to guess. It's Ashley Smith or Ashley Norton. Probably Norton. I'm guessing. Well, thank you's Ashley Smith or Ashley Norton. Probably Norton. I'm guessing. Well, thank you, Ashley. Janet Cunningham. Mark Davis has said that. Regan Shalkley.

Toreen Moore. Lacey M. Lisa Ramos. Thomas Smith. Anthony Perez. Jeremiah Manchester. Susanna Platt. Cohen McPherson.

Trent Holliman. Sharon Schmidt. Emma Pippenger. Paul Ruest, Brian Case, Ronnie Kumar, Linda, with no last name, obviously, Mary Marler, Crystal Walker, Tabitha Colwell, Liz Baum, Tyler Gwill, NAMC 775. I don't know. Thank you. I doubt their mom named them that. Trent Ellis. Jeremy Bethune.

He donated twice both ways. Thank you very much. Thank you. Ron Bosch. Yep. Bosch. B-O-S-H-C-H. Like the fucking windshield wipers and the German stuff.

Sonia Smith. Angela Hewer. Alexis with no last name. Matthew Shannon. Benjamin Langluis. Matt Jason. Mark Erickson, Tyler Sheldon, Rex Salisbury, Noah Del Duca, Jody Porter, Stephen Southward, Sam and Wendy Stockard,

Jessica Smith, Abdul Jean, Amanda Knight, Catherine Moses, Rosie Mitchell, Amber Elizabeth, Ava Hahn, is it Ava? It is Ava Hahn, Corey Kano. Kimberly Walsh. Steve Braun. Brown. That's Brown. Damn it. Greta Treiber.

Nadia Lee. Michelle Wallace. Rachel Hitchcock. Ava Payne. Neely. Neely. Neely. Neels.

Jesus. Neely Neels. Neely Neels. She sure does. Oh. What the shit? Melanie Kelly. Kimberly Jay. Brian Case, Casey Parkers, Jen Sivers, Kimberly Walsh. Did I say that like seven times?

I don't know. Well, thank you, Kimberly Walsh. Thank you. Kristen Tracy, Lauren Schulte. Yeah. Travis Mays, James Pearson, Tracy Donovan, Melinda Klug, Amanda Knight, Jason Dingus, Harold Testes Jr. Probably not.

They got me. Possibly. They got me to say it, so good for you. Eric Kuhn, Courtney Anemram uh janet cross drennan amanda webb sarah west liz brunner jennifer king celia stevens jillian elizabeth uh heather mckinnon matt kinnon uh shannon harvey sharon harvey shit jason o'hearn matthew larose caitlin hanrahan uh shauna shauna hensley kirsten with no last name, Amy Price, Mariah? No, Moira. Moira Basich.

Basic? She's not basic. No. I wouldn't call her that. Hell no. Probably basic. Courtney Lampshire, Brian Riley, Brielle Douthright, Aaron Switzer, Adam Roberts, Cameron Woodward, great uh aaron switzer amber adam sorry i'm not amber adam roberts uh cameron woodward gordon bennett or bene david smart uh sarah thompson ashley baxter yavani yaviani lorenzo

uh john hax haxstein yep uh jennifer thomas thompson fuck uh will broning and adam so many adams that i've called amber adam adam schneider ryan hansen nico esparza kurt johnson michael myers the masked serial killer is what the thing said it's probably not he does one good thing with himself and give us money thank you destiny burns uh jess eidson uh and all of our patreon supporters You guys do amazing things for us. We wish we could say more than just thank you. Thank you, folks, so much for everything you do for us. Honestly, man, that list is awesome, and it's a daunting one. We're just blown away by it.

Thank you so much for that. What if people wanted to get a hold of you and ask you a stupid question? Jimmy, how could they do it? You can find me at WismanSucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N, Sucks, on Twitter, Instagram, or Snapchat. I don't care uh i do my best to answer um and i do my best not to be uh uh sarcastic sometimes you're gonna get some sarcasm but for the most part i'm gonna be honest with you and give you what i can uh in terms of helping but uh do not ask me how to get to a venue don't ask me if you're going to a city uh that's out of the way that you have never been to before and you're coming to see our show don't ask me where to eat

because i don't fucking live there either yeah but i will see you there and thank you all so much for coming to these last shows and more than that the people that came to like multiple shows that's insane thank you guys you saw the uh sometimes the same show twice and you guys were cities and so nice and so great and told me new things that you'd heard or new things that you found in the show

and you loved it too and I loved it so thanks for coming and I'll see you guys this time around too where can they find you? you can find me at Jimmy P is funny

or just copy and paste my last name from the show description and you can find me that way and if you ask me dumb questions I will be sarcastic someone tweeted

are you guys coming to Little Rock? Nope. That's a one word answer. No. Next year? Nope. Not then either.

When? Never. That's the fucking answer. Never. I'm never coming to Little Rock if it's voluntary. When I will be taking Little Rock as if I'm charged with a federal crime and there's a prison there that I'm forced to stay in. That's when I'll spend time in Little Rock.

Why? Because I've been to Little Rock. It's a fucking shithole and i don't go there voluntarily or the governor is a huge fan and would love us to do a small-town murder in his living room for i don't know 15 million dollars maybe and depends on who the governor is and what his policies are about because i'm a dick like that and i'll the whole show will be about what a cunty is i'll come i'll come down i'll do the show and then i'll give james out but do that come and see come and see us though honestly and hit us up on social media we're happy to answer stuff just honestly think about your question don't clog up the pipes don't clog up the shit pipes everybody uh that said holy shit we have a great community that we've built like you guys are awesome in chicago was it chicago or milwaukee where the guy put money down

at the bar and then was like, I don't want change. Just use it. Yeah. It was Milwaukee. Just use it for the people behind me. Somebody next.

Just put a hundred bucks down and just. They threw money down and were like, yes, use it for the people behind us. Yeah. Everybody coming up kept putting money down

and buying drinks for everybody. It was awesome. That's the community we've built. Yeah. Be a part of that community. It's fucking great. That's what the live shows are like too. It's so amazing. They're fun. That's the community we built. Be a part of that community. It's fucking great. That's what the live shows are like, too. It's so amazing.

They're fun. It's not just like you in a box watching a thing. You're in it, man. Right from the beginning when everyone shouts, shut up and give me murder, at the same time at the fucking top of their lungs, we're all a team. It's unreal, the camaraderie that we've built. Let's keep it going through 2020. I love it.

That's how that date goes, right? Fuck yeah. All right. Yeah. 2020. Whatever it through 2020 I love it that's how that date goes right fuck yeah alright yeah 2020 whatever it is I love it with that said

until next week everybody it's been our pleasure bye Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.