Small Town Murder - #153 - That Can't Be An Accident in Brookfield Township, Ohio

Episode Date: January 9, 2020

This week, in Brookfield Township, Ohio, a casual evening of drinking at a local small town bar turns into a search for a missing person. Family, friends, police... and even the murderer all hunt for a trace of the person, in hopes of finding them alive. Unfortunately, this search turns into the search for a body, then after some new information, turns into a hunt for body parts. Will the monster who was responsible be brought to justice? This one is wild! Along the way, we find out Vikings aren't just in Minnesota, that you should try to take other people's point of view into account, and that you can't dismember someone by accident!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts#153 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Brookfield Township, Ohio, a search for a missing person turns into a search for a body, which turns into a search for body parts. back to Small Town Murder.

Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us again on another crazy wild out of control edition of Small Town Murder. We really do appreciate it. First of all, I want to thank everybody for the reviews this week.

Very important and we don't know why. We don't understand it. That purple icon, Apple Podcasts, if you could do it, give us five stars. It helps a lot on the business end, helps drive us up the charts, gets you noticed and that does good things for the show. Doesn't matter what you say say you can type whatever you want in there and following instructions following directions and it's dark in here right now and they won't let me leave until i type this

it doesn't matter dealer's choice dealer's choice whatever you want to say is great also head over to shut up and give me murder.com for right now for all of your all of your small town murder all of your crime and sports needs. And listen to Crime and Sports if you haven't. It's just, we're on a run of really wild stuff. So if you like funny things, you should listen to Crime and Sports. You don't have to like sports.

I can assure you of that. Also, get your tickets to live shows there. That is very important. The one's coming up right away here in the next month. February 7th and 8th is sold out in Denver and Salt Lake City. But the next week, February 15th and 16th is sold out in Denver and Salt Lake City, but the next week, February 15th and 16th, we're in Indianapolis and Louisville. Get your tickets right now, and then the next month in

March, we're in San Francisco for the 13th and the 14th. Two late shows. So cool. I think they're at 10 o'clock. San Francisco? 10 o'clock, Comedy Club. Love it. It's going to be amazing. That's going to be fun. Let's do it. It's going to be... I'm going to have a full evening at the dispensary by then. It's going to be amazing. That's going to be fun. We're going to be, it's going to be, I'm going to have a full evening at the, at the dispensary by then.

It's going to be wonderful. We're going to the fishermen's war. It's everything that swims in the sea, everything that you can pull out. That's shelled or unshelled. We're going to be eating that stuff. So we can't wait. We can't wait for that.

So do that. Also, if you want to be a bigger, just a hero of ours i mean these are our producers we're going to leave read a long list of their names at the end of the show and they're really our heroes they're our producers they keep the show going you can do that very easily by going to patreon.com slash crime and sports or head over to paypal and use our email address which is crime and sports at gmail.com and listen to Crime and Sports as well

based on that. Now, we have to do the disclaimer here quickly, but we're going to put a little extra something into it here. This is a comedy podcast. It's a comedy show. That is the crux of this thing. There is murder involved. The stories are true. There's nothing

embellished. There's nothing to make it funny or anything like that. We tell murder stories, and then we make jokes. So that's the show. Generally, if you don't think that's a good thing for a show, you shouldn't listen to this show. No. You think true crime and comedy should never go together, and it should be a very straight, and then he cut her head off, and then a very straightforward reading, then this is not the show for you.

We are going to be respectful. We try our best to be respectful. We're not here to... We don't want to hurt anybody. No. That's one thing we don't want to do. And lately it's come up a couple people have been hurt by it and we don't want to hurt people.

That's not what we're trying to do. Honestly, we try, go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families. We are assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's true but the thing is you have to understand a couple of things okay this is the way the show works i do the research and i bring the story in when i sit down and i say we're jimmy you don't know this yet we're gonna be in ohio today you didn't know that before he looks at me and goes oh hi

okay he doesn't know the story beforehand so when we a story, when we're leading up to a murder and there's a bunch of crazy things happening and people are running around with swords or people are, you know, calling people scarlet whore beasts or something, Jimmy doesn't know who's going to be murdered. No. So I'm just telling him, here's a bunch of characters doing weird things or crazy things. So Jimmy's just making jokes on whatever's presented to him. He has no way of knowing who the victim's going to be and then to not make fun of them ahead of time i can't

single them out that's and that would also kind of also kind of tell you what the story is going to be now we could do the show different where i could tell jimmy the whole story and he could know not who to not to make fun of and then it wouldn't be the same show and it wouldn't be funny so if you'd like that or once in a while we might make a mistake like that where before the murder happens jimmy more than likely because he doesn't know the story well because you don't know the story not because you're likely to say something shitty about somebody you're just i'm honestly probably more likely to say something offensive about someone directly right but you don't know the story so if you accidentally end up saying something about someone who later on in the story becomes a murder victim we can't help that and we do apologize for that and once we do once we do know who it is

it's as respectful as can be nobody deserves to be murdered for anything that's our stance that no i mean there are people some of our murderers might need it but other than that nobody no matter what they do in the story that sounds like oh that's crazy behavior and we might go jesus why'd that person do that that doesn't mean we think they should die or we think they're bad people or we think that their families aren't important or don't deserve to mourn them or anything like that it's just what happens and this is the world we live in we can't bring any of these people back to life right we'd love to we can't so what we can do is try to life is for the living and we're going to try to entertain everyone who's alive. I almost guarantee that there was somebody at a children's beauty pageant where somebody probably called little JonBenet a bitch because she won and beat her kid.

Something, yeah. That's what I mean. It happens. And then she's dead, and now what? If that sounds okay to you, and that's what it is, then great. We're going to have an awesome time, and we're going to have a fun show. And if not, take a hike. But if you're here for that, I think that's what it is. Then great. We're going to have an awesome time and we're going to have a fun show. And if not, take a hike. But if you're here for that, I think it's time.

Yeah. I think it's time to sit back and shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this. Great. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. I'd love it. What do you say? We're going to Ohio.

Like I've previously mentioned to you. I blew the surprise. We're going to Brookfield Township, Ohio. That's a lot. That's, yeah. Winchesterton fieldville villeville berg town it's in northeastern ohio brookfield township headed toward kind of that point where it goes to the lake there it's its panhandle it's going toward the panhandle and there is oh boy this is ohio's panhandle from what i've gathered

just like as you get near those big lakes up there it gets a little dicey it gets well if it's not a big city it gets dicey it's a lot of shit that used to be a ton of industrial shit that then went out of business and now it's now it's you know what i mean yeah it's a little more depressed than it used to be it's got some yeah things deteriorate yeah quite a lot and you know neighborhoods the home values plummet and then people flee and then you know half the neighborhood's empty and you know it turns into uh you know shooting galleries and fucking crack houses and shit so flying from milwaukee to chicago i i mean i flew over that section the wreckage of it's pretty it's pretty bleak out there it's it's yeah there's some bleak stuff going on and that's waterfront property that That's what I mean. Bleak as fuck. Well, that water is barely water.

It doesn't have the... It's thick like syrup. I don't think it has the properties of water. It's a little viscous. It wouldn't put out fire. Put it that way. It would probably only make it worse. It would make it worse.

Like throwing... Like in a grease fire. What happened? Jesus. It's flammable. Make it worse. This is about an hour and 15 minutes to this is about an hour and 15 minutes to cleveland about an hour and 15 minutes to pittsburgh right smack in the middle of cleveland

and pittsburgh that's right there by the way we'll be in cleveland uh where are we in cleveland here at hilarities i know we're in cleveland i think over the summer or some shit like that i don't remember where the fuck oh it's in november that's right. Jesus. And the day before that, we're in Pittsburgh also. So there we go in November. Great. We go there in the snowy time. Three hours and 30 minutes to Logan, Ohio, which is our last episode on Ohio. Episode 108, which was February of 2019. What the shit?

That's a long time ago. It's been a while. This is in Trumbull County. There is another Brookfield Township, Ohio. What? Which is on the other side of the state in Noble County. You don't get to do that. No, you don't. And it happens all... Apparently, Ohio, which is on the other side of the state in Noble County. You don't get to do that. You don't.

And it happens all. Apparently, Ohio is it's a big deal. There's a ton of double named Toledo's. Not to delete like these townships. OK, there's different ones because like you look up some of the townships because I had to do research on three different towns for this because I kept getting it wrong. They're all next to each other. But where it actually occurred, I ended up finally finding it here.

But yeah, there's a ton of different ones. Zip code 44403, area code 330 and 234, 24.7 square miles. This is a big area. It's a bigger area, bigger than most of the towns around here. Their motto here on their website is, quote, developing a community for our children's children. Oh, oh. They're looking forward. Yeah.

At least they're not just like, you know, a fun place to work and play. Like, you know. For right now. Work, live and play. Yeah. For our children's children. Fuck tomorrow. Things are good.

Drive a Hummer. Yeah. Or I found the alternate one. And this is kind of what the locals know it as quote where pittsburgh smells and cleveland smells come together which is a this is a wall from either you really want to come to that stuff over here yeah that's definitely cleveland over there so that smells like uh exhaust jizz on this side that's cleveland exhaust jizz on this side. That's Cleveland. Exhaust jizz. Exhaust jizz. And then captive people in homes. Captive people.

Pittsburgh is a little coal dusty, but there's also like some French fries mixed in there, which makes it smell delicious to me. There's an air of positivity in that. Yeah, there really is. No, Pittsburgh, their food, they're into it, and I like it there for that. That's Rusty Success. That's what that is. That's what that is.

That's what we call that. It's the Rusty Medina Success. So history of this town. This town, the whole area was, because this is by like a Vienna township and a Masary's over to the east of this a little bit. There's all these different towns crammed in right next to each other. The county is a square and all the towns are squares within the county. Like a grid. Exactly. Like a quilt. The county is a square, and all the towns are squares within the county. Oh. Like a grid.

Exactly. Like a quilt. The county is a quilt. So they're all right. They're all right there. It's middle America. There's no, like, you know, it doesn't look gerrymandered at all, where it's like, that's part of the town, but we cut that part out.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And then we did that. None of that shit. All right. So it's just squares. Like a giant AIDS quilt. It's a giant. That's the best way's just squares. A giant AIDS quilt. It's a giant.

That's the best way to describe it. A giant exhaust jizz quilt. It's fucking perfect here. All right. Now, these people, I love this. In 1801, in the town next to it, Vienna Township, the people, the 1801, the resident heads of households in Vienna. I just love these names. heads of households in vienna i just love these names they're uh isaac flower uh levi foot james foster samuel hutchins sam daniel hummison uh dan dennis palmer apentius rogers oh i'm sorry

epon epon eponitis eponitis rogers eponitis i'm gonna say these are like the first american colonial names and then you throw in like a like a greek yeah well another isaac there's three I yo ep what up what a ridiculous name i'm eponidius motherfucker this has got to be biblical or some shit i imagine is that greece is that eponidius 44 27 you don't know that one jeremy jimmy it's the it's where pittsburgh's smells and cleveland smells come together that's the psalm i believe eponidius the book of eponidius you don't know that one jesus christ there probably is one we're just completely ignorant of religion and we don't know like a zeus's son or some shit yeah unbelievable zeus's son that's fucking great uh the the this area the first post office wasn't established until like the 1870s around here it's very strange they had grist mills and saw

mills and shit like that you know when it first started first started. I guess in around 18, in the 1830s is when things really became more industrialized. There was a blast stove moved into the area. What is that? I don't know. A blast stove? A blast stove. I assume that's you. It burns really hot?

Like a kiln, I guess. Oh, yeah, yeah. I could see that, yeah. That sort of thing. It makes pottery or something. You finalize things probably for metals and I don't fucking know. That's all I can assume. Or it's like a super heater for coal something with coal maybe maybe they make gold with it that's what it turns coal into gold quickly we've really made a whole side story on this so they were making coal into gold very quickly the town became a bunch of

scrooge mcduck space it was diving into big. Everybody changed their name to Eponidius. Big Eponidius, and you know how it goes. In 1838, coal mines were, quote, discovered, which it's not really discovered. No. Coal deposits are discovered. The mines you make. Mines were made, and you force people to go down. Hey, there's a hole in the ground.

Holy shit, there's rails and cars. Just throw the coal in, and we'll pull it out. This is easy. It's all set up already. That's not how that works. We've discovered it. We'll pull it out this is easy it's all set up already that's not how that works we've discovered it we discovered it this is great uh it's they had uh coal mining production increases between 1860 and 1890 for the war effort and everything like that a rate of up to 350 to 400 tons of coal mine daily wow it's a lot of coal i guess and especially before you had like you know you

have trucks and shit right you don't have machinery to carry that this is like men with pulleys going we'll use physics to get the call up keep pulling pussy well yeah there's a there's a point where if we hit the there's a fulcrum fucking fulcrum set it up that's the fucking discovery. Yeah. So first coal mine opened in 1866. That was in Vienna there. In 1877, 18 miners were killed due to the burning of a new coal that produced methane gas. Oh, no, they didn't know. Oh, yeah, this is bad. I think that's why they were like, maybe a canary. Maybe a bird.

Maybe we'll leave something. We'll see if a bird dies. If it comes back, we're cool, right? Okay. So the first automobile didn't come until 1905 around here. The Brookfield population in this town grew up pretty steady up until 1869, and it reached its peak of population then, and then started a decline. So the peak of this town was 1869.

That tells you a lot, that sort of thing. So, you know, in terms of when it was really relevant. Before penicillin. Oh, wait. Jesus. A hundred years before penicillin. That's the craziest part. Christ almighty.

Before World War I. They peaked. Yeah. They peaked. Their grace was 200 years ago. Before Grant was president. Jesus Christ, man. That's a 200 years ago. Before Grant was president. Jesus Christ, man. That's a long time ago.

Joshua Potts started a whiskey-making business in the area of Five Points, and it got popular, and the township was known as the Whiskey Capital of the Nation. Really? For a while. They had 22 distilleries in the township in the 1880s. 22. really for a while they had 22 distilleries in the township in the 1880s 22 uh from the 20s to the early 30s it was known as little canada for some reason here um now there was a lot of with all these distilleries and all these coal mines so you have a lot of booze and a lot of coal miners what do you think happens when you get booze and coal mine nothing fucking good deadwood happens

basically that was they were mining for gold but it's the same thing yeah if you get people are willing to take a chance literally digging into the fucking land to see what they can pull out with their bare hand and then at night they're getting fucked up to kill the pain oh boy yeah uh prostitution murders everywhere gambling houses everywhere uh there was seven large large stills operating in the township and six of what they called houses of ill repute. I like that place. That's basically the gem saloon there. You can gamble. You can drink.

You can have ladies get a steak. Party with some brats. Your horse hooked up with some shit. John Dillinger was a local resident here for a while. Is that right? Yeah, he used to hang out around here. Frequented the Green Parrot Bar for card games. That guy keeps coming up in our lives.

He comes out in the Midwest. He's all over the Midwest here. So the problem is, though, this and a nearby Vienna center and Vienna township, there was all of these things. It was just chaos in the streets. So there's always a backlash. All of these things were, it was just chaos in the streets. So that always, there's always a backlash. So that started a big temperance movement, which is eventually what led to prohibition is the craziness of this era made all the women get together and go, I am sick of my

fucking husband coming home and beating the shit out of me and, you know, doing crazy shit. Pushing his dirty dick in my face. Are you tired of that too? I said, yeah. I said, so they got together this was when women used to go groups of society women in dresses with fucking parasols and shit would go to bars go into bars saloons that were all men women weren't even like allowed in there they'd all walk in and start fucking breaking it up they just start smashing shit and they were

like what are you gonna do and everybody just stood there what are they gonna do punch these fucking society ladies back then but now they would back then they were like what are you gonna do and everybody just stood there they could punch these fucking society ladies back then but now they would back then they were like what do we do so they would just they would break all their shit and that was that they would force them to close they would shame them break their shit it was crazy that's why women think they can still do that shit when they break up with us well they do yeah they can that's the thing do whatever they want they get away with it they do whatever they want they have all the vaginas there's nothing we can do about it if you like women you're you you you should that's the thing about guys guys i'm gonna give you a tip out there that's the thing about guys if you like ladies um you should try to make them happy hey there you should try to make them uh

enjoy being around you then they'll like you and then they'll want to be around you more it's pretty fucking cool actually it's pretty awesome so you should try that one yeah rather than you know other means you know things like that so uh you know trying to dominate or trying to play like a weird you know yeah what don't try to be a caveman i don't get it so that's not what that's not what works that shouldn't anyway get you in jail. It works for some things. Yeah. So the Idlewild Amusement Park opened here in 1900 and it was destroyed in 1913 by a flood. So everything's floods and fires in the Midwest.

Everything was destroyed from 1900 to 1915. When it was open, it had a dance hall, a Ferris wheel, canoe rides. They had all this shit. Then they opened the yankee lake ballroom in 1928 and that was for bands and dancing and that's still open today apparently really this play i don't know if it's still called that but the place is still open as a ballroom here i love those places yeah so apparently this whole area became more of an agricultural area after the mining kind of went away because you know that's not sustainable this whole place this whole area sounds like it's nothing but trouble that that

movie nothing but trouble where it's like a burnt out junkyard well those were the coal mines and watch out because the town can collapse sometimes and fires can come from the the bowels of the earth and shoot out through a hole for no goddamn reason yeah it seems like i know it's not but uh the uh the late 1920s is when the population started coming back from that you know it going down initially here and that was immigrants that was mainly italian immigrants basically and people of that nature southern uh southern and eastern the unwanted immigrants so the german and irish are all here and they're like oh no who the fuck is coming now oh jesus christ people willing to do awful things no garlic no garlic it was all my relatives they hated him so but this is it's fascinating what what uh a downtrodden group of

people when they're leaving their homeland somewhere that they know everything and going somewhere new it's fascinating how hard they will work to just... That's how shitty it was there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. That's a good point. We're talking the 1920s. Italy was a fascist country. Fucking Mussolini was in charge. This is...

I'm working a fucking mine. Great. Who cares? It's better than this. It's better than the men having to run to the hills or be killed by Mussolini, which is what... It's bananas.

...fucking happened. It's nuts. So, yeah, there was a lot of... And these people, they had farms, and also they worked in the steel mills because Youngstown isn't far from here. So there were steel mills there and also in like Sharon, Pennsylvania,

which is nearby and that'll come up big in our story today as well. An enormous amount of Ohio is agriculture. It's a lot. There's a lot of it as far. I'm shocked by it. You don't think of it like that because there's a lot of cities in Ohio.

There's Toledo, there's Dayton, Cleveland, it's fucking Cincinnati. And the weather is horse shit oh it's a terrible i don't know how they grow fucking anything i don't understand it's cold all the time fucking right it must be quick it's gonna be cold in two weeks let's go let's go shit just sprouts right up if they hustle down there and then fucking harvest it it's a harder working agriculture down there that's what it is a harder crop. The crops know they need to work. They're immigrant crops.

You see? They came over here. They came over and they knew they had to work harder. Wherever they're at. They got a dictator that's a bastard. Pocket full of pasta, as we've said before, and they just, they knew they had to work harder. So that works.

Amazing. This shit's got to come up fast. It's so fucking cold there. It is. It's freezing there.'s it is it's it's it's freezing there it's it's insulting this is this is snowy too this is you're getting this is a snowy it's the belt between cleveland and pittsburgh so think about that so uh the uh after world war ii big population boom here as people went this is a suburb area it's out there so you can move kind of here and you get a little lawn and some stuff or maybe even a

little farm or a little piece of land for yourself. And you can work in a steel mill or an iron place. But the problem is in the 70s, when that all kind of demise of the American steel industry and everything, the these populations started to decline again because of that fucking aluminum fucking aluminum. I found a review here and and it's so strange. It's almost like a haiku is the only reason why you're going to say it here. It's three stars, this review, and it says,

In my hometown, there are many banks. That's it? No, that's the beginning. But that sounds like it's literature. This is the beginning of a novel. In my hometown, there are many banks. It's going to be like this. Here we go.

This tome of 2,000 pages long. i think the lord of the ring starts that way but then again they're just listing shit though it turns out in my hometown there are many banks we also have a doctor and a dentist well good for you uh for those people the business is great because that's all that's really around oh the baker and the candlestick maker. They fold it up. It's the butcher, too. It's gone. So it's a shame. It really is. People in this town population, 8,553 people, which is down 19 percent since 1990. All the towns around here.

The other town I looked at, which was Vienna Township, which I did a full workup on. That was down like 55% since 1990. So manufacturing jobs, as they go away, because as we'll see, the higher percentage of manufacturing jobs here are the normal. As they go away, so do the people. And that's what happens here. Male, female populations are all kind of on the money.

Median age here is 46 and a half, which it's normally 37 and a half. All the 55-year-old and plus higher demographics are high. Even 85 years old and over is high. And all the under 44 year old demographics are low. Every single one. It's people. Yeah. There's not a lot of people moving here.

Go. Let's move the family to, you know, Eastern Ohio. That's where all the opportunity is. So that's kind of the way that's going. Married is on the money. It's very average in terms of all of the stats married people and all that shit kids it's super average it's kind of your average american town very sarah jessica parker well yeah no this is the town that politicians are talking to okay when they're trying to when they're going for down the middle

fucking you know i'm going for middle america here i'm throwing them some you know i'm talking about damn that wall street main street this is who they're talking to these people because this ohio they flip in presidential elections as we'll talk about all the time because they're confused as fuck well when shit isn't going well you go with something new that's the thing well i tried that that didn't. I'm still fucking poor. Let's try this guy. I don't give a fuck at this point. Her, great.

Sounds good. They don't care. You know, race of this town, 96% white. Pretty white. 2% black there, and 0.0% Asian. I don't even know how you do that. That's, wow. And then Hispanic is even 0.4%.

That may as well be zero. It's almost 18% in the rest of the country. That is wild. And then Hispanic is even 0.4%. That may as well be zero. It's almost 18% in the rest of the country. That is wild. That seems on purpose here. Speak English is the sign when you... Welcome to Brookfield Township. Speak English. Okay.

Never mind. A couple of brothers stick their head out. Motherfucker. Yeah, motherfucker. Two of them from the back of the group. Hi, we're back here. We don't blend in exactly, but there's only two of them from the back yeah back of the group hi we're back here we blow there's not we don't blend in exactly but there's only two of us so we do a badass handshake and everybody goes god that was cool they're fucking cool we should get more of those guys why is there only

two of them this is fucked up uh 45 of the people here are religious and it's a mixture it's about 20 catholic there's a bunch of other christian It's the Midwest, Methodist, Lutheran. They're all mixed in here. Not a lot Jewish, but that's the only thing that's not mixed in. 0.1% Jewish, so not a lot there. The last election, it was 44%, 44.5% Democrat, 50% Republican, about 5% Independent. And the election before that was the opposite. Really?

Yeah, they flip hard here. Unemployment rate here is 6.5%. In the rest of the country, it's 3.7%. So this is way more unemployed than normal. Household income here, it's about $57,500 in the rest of the country. Here it is $42,525. So a little bit low. A lot of people, when you look at it,

$25,525. It's a little bit low. A lot of people, when you look at it, most of the people are in the $20,000 to $60,000 median household income range. That's where the bulk of the people are. Nobody over $200,000. Not a lot of that shit. None of that. It's a lot of very middle, middle class people.

Like I said, people who need something to hope about. People who don't have a lot of money in the bank type of thing, where they're a health catastrophe away from losing their house. Health catastrophe. Shit, they're one paycheck away from everything falling apart. That's what I mean. They're a car repair away from really having a wrench thrown in their shit, so that's why they slip. They are renewing their brake pads away from it all being fucking done. And you look at the jobs here, manufacturing jobs, there's about double than the rest of the country so you're depending on a lot of that manufacturing when they talk about bringing manufacturing back this is why they're saying that

so these people have hope and we'll vote for them it's all politicians here otherwise a lot of food service there's not a lot of white collar jobs here it's that sort of thing cost of living here is 100 is regular average par here it's 73 so it's a little bit low and the really low thing is housing housing is a 36 good median home cost here 83 700 so you can you can be a homeowner you can be a homeowner if you make 35 grand a year here that's that's the thing you can work it out 14% of the houses are worth less than $20,000 here. A lot. A lot.

Pretty much most everything. About 75% of the houses are under $150,000. So that's what it is here. And if we've convinced you the only place for you is Brookfield Township, we have the Brookfield Township, Ohio Real Estate Report. Ohio real estate report. Your average two bedroom rental here is about $700 a month. So that's, it seems high for the, where it is in terms of owning.

Owning is a better option here. I found a, you can get a cheap, you want to pitch a tent 0.37 acres of land. So it's a pretty decent sized plot that you could put a house on bigger than a quarter yeah have a nice yard and everything like that 3,500 bucks 3,500 dollars i mean for a third of an acre yeah you're gonna have a bunch of land for the price of a terrible used car so not bad three bedroom one bath 962 square foot house not great it's run down but you could live in it still 21 900 bucks okay that's it's less than a car you know what i mean now i see why dave chappelle moved there yeah you're a fucking king with his kind of money well yeah three bedroom two bath 1700 square foot house

not the worst it needs to be updated like it doesn't have all the cabinets are white with the it doesn't have all of that but it's definitely definitely livable. $45,000. My word. Not too bad if you've got a couple of kids or something. And I found a five-bedroom, four-bath, 3,436 square foot, spread out, very nice. It's on two acres. It's one of these that sits on a little hill with just rolling lawn all around it. $289,000. Oh, Jesus. And it looks like a mansion.

It's crazy. I want it. That's what I mean. It's affordable, but the job, there's not a lot of money to be made here, so it's crazy i want it that's what i mean it's you can it's affordable but the jobs there's not a lot of money to be made here so it's hard to retirement place yeah if you made some money somewhere else and you don't mind the cold yeah you can go here and live like a king i've got so many goals right now oh my goodness things to do i found this isn't this is like in the uh county fairgrounds or something it's near here it's not in this town

but it's too funny to not talk about the ohio viking festival oh my god i don't know why you'd do that you guys don't have an ocean nearby no they uh well neither does minnesota and they're all about it but that's a good point the uh they still dress like that they have a corn pit i don't know what enjoy some relaxing time while the kiddos play at our corn pit. Here, kids, go in the corn pit. What the? Who throws their kid in a corn pit? It's picture kernels.

Right. Is that what it is? Instead of a ball pit, it's kernels. Because that's like fucking quicksand. Then you also step on it and be all mushy. If it's too deep, you could drown. Also, they're wet inside. Oh, my God.

Corn's wet. Is it dried? It's like popcorn. Maybe it's a popcorn pit. Viking Village. Yeah. Stroll through ouriking village and see what life was like just less rape i'm sure i'll be involved in this uh ask the vikings questions and see what they're cooking for lunch and engage your little ones in a new bartering game trade your little ones to vikings perfect uh Artisans. The mother of all dragons, dragon training school. This is stupid.

This is stupid. This is how the fuck, this is how bored they are. Look at this man. He's got a Viking with a harp under music. Look at him. What the fuck? And his name is Harper Kirk. Harper.

Harper. Oh, my God. It's probably his title. And also, there's Friday's shield painting class. Oh, Jesus. This is the picture for the shield painting class. I hate that so much. It's a fucking wooden shield with a He-Man shield with the two straps on the back you

put on your arm. Two leather straps right there. It's ridiculous. That's silly. June 26, 2020. The shield painting class is $12 for 45 minutes. You got to pay for that? Oh, you got to pay extra for shield painting.

Are you kidding me? Jesus. You got to pay for humiliation? Where do you think all that corn comes from jimmy it's that corn money so that works uh crime rate is there's nothing else it's just the viking festival crime rate in this town what we're interested in property crime slightly high but not much about 10 just you know pretty average in terms of that within the margin of error, I would say. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and assault is about half the average of the national average. So it's not not too murdery. We'll say.

Speaking of that, though, guess what we're going to talk about? Yeah. A murder. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one

and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media will have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife.

Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. But one ofbye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max

or wherever you get your podcasts. But one of those, let's get into it. One of those very low percentages. Yeah, this is a little higher here for this particular case. Let's talk about this murder. For this,

we have to go all the way back to 1991. Okay. So we're going to go back a little bit. We're going to try to do cases like, I don't know, it's okay to do cases that are kind of newer, but I feel like they're a little bit. We're going to try to do cases like, I don't know, it's okay to do cases that are kind of newer, but I feel like they're a little fresh sometimes for people.

And also, I don't know, there's something different about doing it. I'm not saying they all have to be 30 years old, but maybe not ones from the last five years. It would make them a little older. It's kind of, you know, if like Snapchat's involved in the crime, maybe we don't do it. You know what I'm saying? Just that. Right. DJ Khal Snapchat's involved in the crime, maybe we don't do it. You know what I'm saying? Just that. Right.

DJ Khaled song in the background. She was listening to that while she was murdered. Maybe we don't do it at that point. That's all I'm saying. Not crazy, but just just a little distance. Mac Miller made him do it. A little distance. A little distance.

Yeah. They were depressed over Mac Miller's suicide. So they decided to off someone. Not suicide overdose. Close enough. I apologize. I wasn't trying to say that. For some reason in my mind, it was.

I believe he had some mental issues. He didn't do it on purpose. That's what I mean. I know it wasn't. That's how it came out. I didn't mean that. So anyway. You get the point.

You get the point. You get the point. We have to talk about Tammy Engstrom first. Okay. Tammy with an I. T-A-M-M-I. All right. Tammy Engstrom here. Now, Tammy lives in Ohio, and she's 22 years old.

She's married. She's a young married lady here. She works in a bar as well. I think it's the Clover Lounge. We'll talk about it in a second. She works there. She leaves work early on the night of February 7th, 1991. Where were you on February 7th?

Thinking about my 10th birthday coming up. Hey, all excited for your 10th birthday? What did you want for your 10th birthday? 10th birthday. I know that I celebrated it in the river bottom under an overpass uh riding quads and dirt bikes oh i was gonna say what are you homeless shooting up fucking shooting speed balls that's what we did down there it was it's up childhood that's where i celebrated i remember it was cold as shit that sounds like a nice redneck birthday yes it seems like you probably loved it though right two weeks prior

i was looking forward to that you were probably loving it right it was jack oh it's the best day ever it's the best day ever that was out in the middle of nowhere and i'm 38 now and i feel like an old piece of shit when i drive by it and there's just houses everywhere i'm like there was there was nothing i could ride my quads here that was actually a bad time as my mother had just moved to arizona and i was waiting to move there and my life was in complete disarray as a child no idea what was coming family ripped apart and on different coasts and it was not great at all james's head is spinning bad stuff yeah this is the beginning of the the beginning of the angsty time that is still here today so meanwhile

i cannot wait at this point to go right you still he's me he means that now right now yeah not then he's right now i had no idea that uh four months later was going to be the worst summer of my life and then that happened and then i'm a mess so this is jesus 91 was awful it's a bad time we 91 formed the show it seems like or at least the fucking depression yeah well both of our weirdnesses yeah that year fucked us both yeah it's a weird one worse for you i would say i got out eventually so i'm alive we're here so she uh leaves work though she says she's ill and leaves work February 7th, 1991. And she drives from Hubbard, Ohio, which is where her job is. This is right by the Ohio, Pennsylvania border also.

So there's going to be some Pennsylvania, some Ohio. You can cross back and forth very quickly. All these towns are within 15 minutes of the Pennsylvania border. It's right around there so she drives from hubbard ohio to masery or masery or missouri even if they're really crazy with their pronunciations m-a-s-u-r-y yeah that could be anything they call it missouri that's i mean that could literally be anything in local pronunciation like we've the way we've seen local pronunciations you can take a you can take the most basic word, car,

and it'll be like, that ain't car. No. What are you calling a car for? They don't know anything. It's K-R. Fucking stupid idiots. And they tweet us that. Like, fuck you.

This can go any way. I don't care how it's pronounced. I'm going to call it Missouri, because that's fun for me. Because it's hilarious. It's the dumbest way they can pronounce it, so I'm going to assume that's fun for me. Because it's hilarious. It's the dumbest way they can pronounce it, so I'm going to assume that's the way it's pronounced because that's usually how it goes. I love that so much. So she is going from Hubbard, Ohio to Mazury, Ohio. Mazury is like right on the border of Pennsylvania.

It's like right there. And she's going to the Nickelodeon Lounge. Oh. Oh, baby. What's she doing there? She's working there? No, she left her job early to go to another job at a bar to go to another to go to another bar to her uncle's there. She's going to visit her uncle. Her uncle's name is Daniel Daniel Hivner. And he is at this bar already and waiting for her. So I can hang it out. He's there. He's just just hanging out this is his kind of hangout place and then she comes to see him uh from her job so uh it's about 5 30 p.m

she does she left work before that so she wasn't on very long she probably got there so i really don't feel good i'm not going to stay got it went home she uh 5 30 p.m she dropped off her one-year-old son yeah she's got a one-year-old son named Casey. Her husband's name is Andy. They're both early 20s. She's 22. They're young people with a young baby, young married couple. And they're going somewhere to go drink with her uncle in the Midwest. This is very Midwest.

Yeah, at 5.30 p.m. instead of going to work. So, yeah, she drops Casey off at her friend's house, a woman named Sharon King. That was before she went to work. She dropped the kid off originally. She didn't take the kid to the bar, say, I'm sick, and then drop her. No, she dropped her kid off to go to work at 530. She went to the Clover Bar is the name of the bar she works in Hubbard, Ohio. And there, Tammy's mother also works there at the Clover Bar.

So it's a mother-daughter, I guess, bartending waitress team going on at the Clover Bar here. Mary Jane Hess is her mom. They both work at the Clover Bar. Tammy arrived at work at 6.30 p.m. and later at about 9.30 is when she went home. So I was mistaken on the other thing. She goes home at 9.30 p.m.

She's there for about three hours. She dropped her son off an hour before that. Her mom relieved her so she could go home there. Okay. Now, so she leaves. Tammy leaves. And she ends up in Missouri, Ohio to visit her uncle, Daniel. And he's a regular patron at the Nickelodeon lounge he's he's he's

holding court he's our guy he's our guy he is the the brookfield town sheds mazary whatever this is his home field here so you know that guy yeah who holds court at the local bar it could go either way though it could be like the greatest dude in the world i was just gonna say holy shit he could be he could be roman craig from the great outdoors he's telling you a million bullshit stories or he could just be the coolest fucking guy ever he's like good at darts right but not too good doesn't rub it in your face shit like that fun guy yeah fun guy knows sports but doesn't get too fucking crazy about it teach you a trick shot or two yeah hey check this out yeah you know it doesn't tell you like disgusting fucking sexual stories about people you don't want to hear about what he did back in the war with his friends now

i know this is gonna sound weird but let me tell you some freaky shit i did with my grandma now i know i know i know but i was i was 12 and she's a young grandma you're like whoa i gotta get the fuck away there's that guy at every bar i'm sorry i didn't mean to gross you out come on come back over here i'll tell you what me and six other GIs did to two German girls back in the war. And I'll show you a picture of my grandma, too, also. I've got to show you a picture of her, because she was a fine piece of ass. I'll tell you what. She was a fine piece of ass.

Who's a hot piece of ass? Martha is. Martha is a hot piece of ass. Her name's Martha, the hot piece of ass. So I couldn't remember that. So Tammy arrives at the Nickelodeon at about 10 o'clock p.m. Obviously, doesn't have her sudden with her. She at the time, she she rolls up Nickelodeon bar lounge 10 p.m.

Not feeling good. Wearing a black leather coat, a sweater, black pants, black shoes, black stockings. So she's I like her. I like her style. She sounds hot. Just like Sarah. I think it is all black. Like Emily like emily yeah and me i like this that's a leather that's a black leather i'm into that just well there's this black sweater black pants black shoe i like that hey look at that you're

all put together that's good stuff very uniform i like the perfect monochromatic so uh and also a $1,200 diamond cluster ring who she had purchased from her friend, Sharon King, who's watching her son right now, a few weeks earlier. So she bought a ring from her friend. I don't know if her friend. It doesn't mean anything? It's just something for her to wear? It's just a ring she bought. Yeah, I guess she liked the ring.

She's crushing it. Yeah, her and her husband are doing fine, I guess. And yeah, she could buy a ring. I don't know if maybe this was like when young couples get married, a lot of times they won't be able to get a decent engagement ring. A lot of times it'll be like. They wait a while.

Yeah, it'll be some. I know I can't give you anything now, but in a couple of years and maybe they got married in a couple of years from now and they said, let's replace your ring and get something nice or something like that. That's very common in marriages. So she's wearing that. That's very common in marriages. So she's wearing that.

She's also carrying a small gray purse, which one of her friends who had talked to her earlier said contained a significant amount of money in her purse. So I don't know if she's I don't know how much significant is to this person. That's very subjective. Yeah, it could be $80. She got $80. 80. This bitch walking around with $64 spending cash. She's like, she got $80. $80. This bitch walking around with $64 spending cash.

It's crazy. $24 if it's in singles, Jimmy. It just looks like a big roll. You're a goddamn mind game. I almost robbed her and she's my sister. You have no idea. It just depends on what's in your bank account. The difference between a lot and not a lot.

I'm saying it's got to be like a couple hundred dollars or more i'd say five to five to a thousand dollars yeah i was gonna say well 91 so i'm gonna say 91 300 bucks could be a significant amount of money in 91 1200 ring on her hand though she may have a grand i mean she might be doing yeah it seems to be doing well for herself so she gets there to hang out with daniel hevner her uncle you know the guy holding court here yep she hangs out. She has a couple of drinks. She has a few drinks over here at the Nickelodeon, socially, with everybody hanging, doing their thing.

And a little while later, because she gets there at 10 o'clock, at about 11 o'clock, another guy comes into the bar. He's another kind of regular in the bar. People know who he is. He knows Daniel Hefner, her uncle, like well to come up and, hey, Daniel, how's it going, man? how's it going man blah blah blah and they talk remember those two german girls did i ever show you a picture about grandma you've been waiting haven't you

all these she has clothes on i know it's nice whatever but it's gross it's gonna be hot what do we just you gotta picture it you gotta just like look through it you know i'm saying so this is a guy named kenneth biros b-i-r-o-s is his name and i guess biros is how you would say that he is uh he's born in june of 1958 so he's 32 years old at this time um you know just regular guy regular town guy that hangs out here um you know he's uh he's had an interesting kind of a life. I mean, not not anything super notable, but you can kind of builds a character here. Difficult childhood, especially as a bad relationship with his father. He grows up.

I think he has two sisters and a brother. I'm pretty sure here. And they all are afraid of his father. His father is a very abusive alcoholic and a severe alcoholic. Not just like a puts a six pack away at night. He can't quit. He's fucking passed out every night from that blackout every night kind of drunk. He's a very severe alcoholic.

And he was very mean to the kids, obviously. I mean, a lot of times back in the 60s, that was considered parenting. Yeah. No, I had five drinks and yelled at the kids. Yeah, I did my job tonight. That's what fathers do. I've done well. No, I hit the boy. Yeah, I hit the boy. I yelled at the kids yeah i did my job tonight that's what fathers do i've done well no i hit the boy yeah i hit the boy i yelled at the girls i called them fat right i told yeah it's fine i told them they're never gonna find a man that loves them and you know i came up here backhanded the boy and i came up and made another martini

what do you want from me i'm a parent he's red not bloody yeah right that's what you do handprint that's what it works it'll go away by morning. It's fine. The Don Draper method of parenting, basically. If you watch Mad Men, that's the most striking thing to it, other than the sexism, obviously, and the racism. It's everything. It's really a

cornerstone of putting white men on a pedestal. There's a three-pronged attack to that. Sexism, racism, child abuse. That's the 1960s, everyone. The triad. The triad of 1961.

Back then, though, the kids were like, shut the fuck up and go in your room. If there's other kids here, you guys go play something. I don't care what it is. Just get out of our face. You break something, you're going to have two sets of parents

beating the shit out of you. And make me a Manhattan on the way out, by the way. That's the other thing. They'd have their kids mixing drinks for them and doing that

and hitting them and other people would hit your kids and you'd be like, thanks for hitting my kid for me. He really was out of line. I appreciate it. I have gin and a tonic.

Yeah. One in each hand. I was double fisting, so obviously I didn't want to spill my drink. I was mixing it in my mouth, you see? That's how you do it. That's why it was okay to hit other people's kids. Their parents didn't want to spill their drink.

Will you get that for me? Like, you got it. No, no, back of your hand, though. I want it to sting. He's a shithead, this one. He's always got a mouth on him. Will you get that for me? That's what it seems like back then.

Like it's the remote. Yeah. That means hit my kid. Beat the shit out of my child for me. You get that from me. You see he's cutting up, right? Everyone knows he deserves a beating right now. Like pass the table salt.

You heard the kid, right? That means we should beat him senseless. The scene not heard. Did you ever hear that in your life? Oh, God, yeah oh god yeah say that to you i my grandmother's from fucking italy are you kidding me insulting thing i ever heard children are to be seen not to be heard uh that i didn't get in my it wasn't a scene and not heard thing oh boy i'm italian everybody's heard that sounds everybody's heard does that not sound a little it sounds terrible yeah you shut up i'll look at you you show me your ass and you go back there sounds disgusting it's a terrible thing to say

to kids yeah this uh and i realize that obviously child abuse isn't funny but this happened in the 60s and it's true it's and a lot of people suffered through it and whatever uh his father was mad at him because he was left-handed hold on this actually is a thing back then because my mother's left-handed and in church or in school she went to catholic school the nuns used to beat her when she was very small to try to make her right right hand did they tie her hand behind her back no they just beat her with wow they would beat him with rulers wrong hand bitch yeah they would beat him with rulers because the left hand if you wrote the left hand that meant you were evil what the hell that meant you were like that and this was catholic school my mother has green eyes and left-handed so

she was like the most they they all thought she was evil so be smart so that's what i mean she's all fucked here so uh yeah that's that was a thing about that and her his father was a religious guy and involved in the church too as well uh would go to church and shit like that so he would he was mad at him for being left-handed called him useless and all that type of shit that's your fucking sperm dude that's yeah sorry fuck well i failed is what you should look at it boy i'm a failure we'll get your dick every day you should call it a failure apologize to that kid sorry i didn't give you better genetics if you think he's shitty yeah yeah sorry i i gave it my shot this one's, buddy. I was probably hammered while that happened. That's why his father would try to keep them kind of isolated.

Him and his siblings even stopped them. Apparently, eventually they weren't allowed to go to church anymore. The kids weren't allowed to go to church anymore. Just kept them kind of isolated. Like, you know, abusive people do. They want to isolate people. So it's easier to abuse them. This is my little, my little, my little you know area my abuse closet

that i can fucking be shitty to people isn't it fascinating how that was so socially acceptable in terms of like everybody did it yeah yet it was so they knew it was fucking wrong they felt the shame as they did it oh dude you have no idea back in okay this is off the subject for five seconds but it ties into the 60s very, very well in this time period. There's the Hunter Thompson book, Hell's Angels, right? He wrote the book, Hell's Angels. At the very end of the book, he talks about how his relationship with the Hell's Angels ended, which was by a bunch of them almost killing him. They all jumped him and beat the shit out of him.

And the reason comes out, there's a television interview with Hunter Thompson where they bring out this one guy who's a hell's angel and he's kind of a kind of a showy hell's angel he's not one of the down and dirty guys he's like a he's like a college graduate and he's like he's a different type than the rest of the guys he's their spokesman kind of at that point on tv and they come out to talk about why they beat him up and the reason why they beat him up is because one of the angels was kicked his dog and then slapped around his wife right the guy beat the shit out of his dog and then went and started beating up his wife not hunter's wife this man's own dog and his own wife so hunter went over and said only a pussy kicks a dog and beats a fucking woman you fucking pussy and started calling him fucking names trying to call him out and get him to stop beating his wife right which

is even for the 60s that's very progressive to get involved in somebody's business like that but that's just a decent human thing to do so he was uh met with uh getting sucker punched by other hell's angels who took that as an affront of him whatever respecting the gang disrespecting one so then that's the all-on-one theory and they all have to fight so that's how it worked there so he was pissed off and he's on tv and this guy came out on television and and was telling him how wrong he was to get in somebody else's business and the whole crowd was laughing and clapping wow man wants to slap his wife around that's his business and the crowd's like yeah yeah whole studio audience hundreds of people men and women laughing clapping wow and it's like and hunter's sitting there portraying just a sane point of view that's all it is it's just like i didn't

like a guy beating his dog and wife i thought that was wrong so i told him that's what he said and they're like what the fuck can you believe this fucking guy the hell's animals can you believe this fucking guy how dare he right yeah that's none of your business and shit but that's the time period where a whole studio audience would be on that guy's side unreal so it's it's a weird thing so the father wasn't you know an outcast of society this wasn't like jerry springer with like a light trash audience this was no this was a legit i think it was canadian as a matter of fact i believe it was a canadian show i could be wrong about that but you look it up on youtube hunter thompson Hells Angels interview thing, you'll see it.

It's there's a show. Yeah. They bring a guy out on a motorcycle and everything. Yes. So his father ends up not Hunter Thompson's father. Kenneth Bieros, his father, ends up dying of cirrhosis of the liver. That's what happens. Yeah.

Very severe. This is when he's still young, too. So that's how severe of an alcoholic he was. Yeah, very severe. This is when he's still young, too. So that's how severe of an alcoholic he was. And Kenneth begins to get very, very angry about life in general, about his father being shitty and then dying, too. So it's like, oh, you're shitty.

And then you abandon us all as well, which is how kids think of death of parents for some reason. Well, when they're psychologically, the way he died is a very selfish way of dying. Yeah. And while he was here, he did nothing for us in the same way so he he doubly fucked us kids get mad though psychologically kids get mad at their parents even if they got in a car accident they get mad it's a it's a i don't know what it is it's a it's a just a reaction that your brain does it's not a logical thought out thing so i didn't know the whole situation between my father leaving and such but i i still i mean i still to this day harbor resentment and abandonment issues because of it it fucking stings man this guy this kid got to

grow up with one at least a little bit but then this guy died yeah which is a different i don't know i think i'd rather go fishing and get punched in the face than not go fishing that's yeah at least there's fishing yeah at least there was a little bit of smile during the day a black guy and a trout at the end of the day than nothing told I'm stupid for tangling up the lines I think I'd rather have that that's what having a father is being told

you're stupid for tangling up the lines so yeah he said that he was able to suppress this anger though and not let it doesn't bubble over he ends up going to college graduates from college you know he has his life generally together when it comes to that um doesn't really have much

in the way of isn't a criminal or anything he has a uh a drunk driving citation from five years earlier in 1986 so he was 27 into his adulthood 27 years old he got you know he drunk he was drunk driving and he only they only caught him because he plowed his car in a tree and what he later said was a suicide attempt so he was just having a bad time apparently drunk and depressed and driving is a bad thing that's why you shouldn't drive you really shouldn't shit face probably for that and many other reasons but gives you a very opportunity to go i'll just go into that thing and kill myself so yeah that's all he has he's a generally you know regular guy in the town regular at the nickelodeon lounge friend of daniel hivner uh he arrives there about 11 o'clock so uh you know

tammy's been drinking and hanging out for an hour with her uncle there now now kenneth is coming from a drinking contest what uh he's coming from a drinking contest. What? He's coming from what they called a drinking event sponsored by the Nickelodeon and other bars. They had some sort of drinking. Like a poker run or something? Some sort of drinking event where you're going to drink a lot in a short amount of time. He comes from that to the bar. To drink more.

To drink more. So this is the type of area we're in here. Oh, boy. And if you know anything about western Pennsylvania, I don't know a lot about eastern Ohio, but I know plenty about Pennsylvania. That is a drinking kind of place. Yeah. They got a bar and they know where they're going.

It's cold and it's dark and everyone has a keg in their house. That's what it is. I have relatives from Scranton, which isn't western, but it's all the same once you get to the middle of Pennsylvania. Canton, Ohio is the same damn way. Kegs in the houses. It the same damn way kegs in the houses you know it's okay for kids to drink in the house when they're 11 shit when they're four five they're at the bar with hey get yourself a beer you lazy bastard they're yelling at him you

lazy sons of bitches i'll tell you these kids are lazy now they don't take their own beers bar stool just drink a goddamn beer asking his goddamn mother for a beer. It's like, get your own beer. It's like, I love that so much. Christ. I love that one. Christ. Christ, I tell you. They put it's like in front of so many things.

Oh, yeah. I spent some time there. I've done my time, damn it. Boy, do I hate those two words together. It's like. two words together it's like yeah yeah and then they make a noise it's like and that's the end of the sentence what what did you just say he's made about 80 of them they all qualify what was that now it's like right no not right i don't know what you're talking about you know what i mean yeah no i fucking don't you know fuck i'm talking about no i don't know it's

like and then made noises i don't know what's happening at all so he he comes from a drinking contest or drinking event to drink more and uh this what's in his i mean it's when your father's that much of a severe alcoholic even if you hate him and see how wrong it is a you're genetically predisposed and b it's just been around you so much that smell you've smelled it since you're a kid it's familiar it's subconscious at that point yeah it's exactly that's what it is too and uh and people don't want to be like their parents but they always end up like their parents well you know what it's funny because yeah yeah but it's funny because when they start drinking, they go, I'm not going to drink like him. I'm not going to.

This is going to ruin my life. I'm not going to let it. And then you see him 15 years later, and you're like, fucking ruined you. Jesus. Did you just come from a drinking contest and go to a bar? They really took you. In your car? He drove there.

Think about that. That alcohol is chewing on your life. want you to know yeah and then they sit around and kenneth drinks with all with tammy and uh daniel now he has never met tammy before this is the first time he's ever met tammy he's met daniel plenty in the bar but the first time he's been this is my niece hey how you doing i mean friend of mine from the bar my niece so much much about you. Yeah, that's all it's about. It's like... She works over at the Lucky fucking, you know, the Clover Lounge or whatever the hell, the Clover Bar. So you should see her over there. Yeah, she works on Thursdays or who the hell knows.

So they drink for about an hour. Now, by midnight, Tammy is... The best way to put it would be unconscious. Shit house. Unconscious. Really? Not shit house, passed out. In the bar?

In the bar. She's passed out. Now, we aren't sure if this is due to excessive intoxication or if she has illness. Also, if she was sick and then drank on top of it and it got a little, we're not sure. I can get too dehydrated fast. Yeah, either way, she's passed out either way she is fucking she's passed out so um

later on they had kind of they she's passed out rather than going oh let's get tammy home they just kind of prop her up they just kind of prop her on the bar like on the table like just lean her on it on her hands she'll be cool sit her up in a wheelchair that's what they did let the kids take pictures with her yeah then we're gonna take it's like weekend at bernie's after that we're gonna take her water skiing so they just kind of leave her there and then eventually she falls off of her chair and onto the floor okay um what the fuck call an ambulance yeah she either has alcohol poisoning or at the very least she needs to leave the bar probably i would say a home b maybe a hospital maybe er yeah we're not positive here i don't know maybe c but either way the bar isn't the greatest place for her right now so uh her uncle daniel

here helps her back up uh also kenneth joins in oh jesus christ dami fell down and tag kenneth and daniel help her back up into her seat rather than you know to the anywhere else get a lady to take her into the bathroom splash some water on her face this is already a terrible thing have you ever seen a fucking unconscious person fall oh it's scary they don't fall right no no that is terrible they don't fall like in wrestling when somebody hands don't go out there's nothing there's no they just go out bang fucking heads oh it's not good it is is not good, man. That's a bad fall. It's scary.

You've seen it. Ha. Ha. Oh, my God. Humans shouldn't do that. Yeah, that's not natural human stuff. Humans should protect themselves when they fall. Oh, shit.

She's bleeding. Go up into a ball or something. Ha. She hit the ground like. She didn't protect any organs or nothing. It's scary. So instead they. Right.

Right. Right? Right? Yeah. God damn it. Tell you what. That's the Pennsylvania, I'll tell you what. Yeah, it's like. I'll tell you what, because there's never anything that they tell you.

No. It's just, I'll tell you what. Right? Okay. And then the Pennsylvania version, it's like. Right? Lots of hand motions you know noise yeah you can't see that right now i'm nodding and my eyes are i mean so good so uh yeah they do for another hour. Oh, my God. She has head trauma. Possibly.

Probably. Who knows? More than likely. For another hour. So she gets there at 10, drinks for an hour, or drinks for two hours, and then passes out for a full hour. And then finally at 1 a.m., Daniel and Kenneth, her uncle and Kenneth Bieros, assist her in moving from the bar to the parking lot. Oh, boy.

So, she'll be fine. Where's she going to the parking lot? Outside. Now, once she gets out there, she's awake again. Yeah. She says, I'm driving home. I'm fine. You're out of your fucking mind.

She's insisting on driving home. I don't care, bitch. We're fighting. Yeah. Now, Daniel. Get in my car. Hivner here. This is 91 when drunk driving still wasn't what it is now.

But if someone has been passed out and fell on the floor, even in the 60s, they'd go, maybe I'll drive you home. Yeah. Maybe another hour nap or something. I don't think you should drive, Draper. I think you're a little fucked up still. A DUI was one thing. It was pretty well acceptable.

You understood him. She's going to kill herself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or a family. Or, yeah, you're going to hit a car head on and kill a fucking, you know, a busload of nuns or something, obviously. Everybody I knew drove drunk when I was 10. Yeah.

And everybody I knew, that was a very small circle. Oh, God, yeah. Me too, though. But everybody I knew in that circle. Yeah, everybody did it. There was still a point that was shameful. Like, my mother had a woman that worked for her. You can't pass out.

Right. She's on fucking cops passed out in an intersection behind the wheel. There's shame in that. If you're going to get into a head-on collision with a station wagon full of divinity students, we've got a problem. You know what I mean? You probably can't do that now. Let's do this shit.

So her uncle, who, I mean, I guess he picked her up off the floor. That's a nice thing. He says, I'm not letting you drive home and physically takes the keys from her. You're not driving fucking home. But he doesn't say, I'll take you home. So what he instead does is hands her her purse, because she had dropped it along the way,

hands her her purse. He said he noticed she was wearing her long leather coat at that time. And Kenneth says, I'll bring her home. So this man, who came from a drinking contest to the bar to then drink for another two hours, is going to take your niece home instead of her. I'm slightly less drunk. I can stand up all right. There's one of us hadn't passed out yet.

Obviously, I'm the driver. That's the difference in 91. Hey, you're too drunk to drive wrestle the keys out of your hand you're still all right you take her home but they that was the difference in the 60s anyone would drive and by 91 the less drunk person would drive whoever is the least drunk who's the least fucked up of us here all right here's the keys you walk the line then i will that's fine this is good but the uncle he should just be like you just met her are you are you nuts no and he's taking it as it's a small town he knows this guy

he's a regular at the bar so he trusts him to take her home he says i'll take her home it's it's all within 15 fucking minutes so he's like i'll just take her home no big deal uh so uh you know he says i'll take her he goes he goes what i I goes I'm gonna go home too he goes I'm gonna stop for a cup of coffee he goes I'll take her in and get her a cup of coffee too we'll stop at the diner yeah he goes we'll each we'll have a cup of coffee sober us both up a little bit and then I'll take her home so to Daniel this sounds like a good idea I don't know why they didn't get her a cup of coffee in a bar bars all have coffee people make coffee booze drinks all the time so but they didn't so either way way, that's to Daniel.

It sounded like a good idea. Yeah. Go get a cup of coffee in her. Try to get her back to, you know, maybe get a, some toast and a something there for the stomach and then take her home. So carbs,

soak it up, soak it up, get her home. Yeah. So, uh, Kenneth Biroz and Tammy Engstrom leave the Nickelodeon lounge at about one 15 AM in Kenneth's car. Uh,

now Biroz said said that uh the the uncle hivner said that he expected them to come back but kenneth said that he was supposed to take her home but there's a confusion there so apparently daniel was waiting for them to come back he just sat there if they were going to go get coffee and come back but she never returned so he figured you know kenneth probably took her home she probably didn't want to come back she But she never returned. So he figured, you know, Kenneth probably took her home. She probably didn't want to come back. She's, you know,

didn't feel good probably. So meanwhile, while all this is going on this whole evening of, you know, we just mapped out from five 30 to, it's an event to all the way to one, one 15 in the morning. Meanwhile,

the, you know, on the upside down of this, on the flip side, her Tammy's husband, Andy was looking for her and just missing her places as he went. About 11.30 p.m. This is pre-cell phone, so you can't just text her, oh, where are you at? No, blah, blah, blah.

If someone said, I'm going to work, you expected them to be at work. So you go. You spent radio silence for the next eight hours. That's it. You're not going to talk to this person for a while. If there's an emergency, you can call their job. And that's that. So he, at 11.30 p.m.,

Andy shows up at the Clover Bar expecting Tammy to be there because he has a gift for her. Oh. A gift for the wife? He's got a gift for his wife. Just because. Just because he popped into work

to just give her a gift at 11 30 p.m seems like a nice guy this andy right uh so but her mom was there and tammy's mom said uh she left work she went home sick so i don't know she's not here obviously so andy drove home uh because he's like oh she must be there so he drove home and she wasn't there he's like oh jesus christ where the hell is she then uh what's going on so uh he then asks uh uh the sharon woman who was watching the kid to begin with watching young casey right he asked her to continue watching casey because she i guess andy was at work too so got it then he got off work yeah so they needed a sitter so i think she's he said hey do you mind watching the baby for another little while i gotta go find mom i'm gonna go find my wife here i don't know where she is so i'm gonna go out and look for much easier minus a kid one year old yeah with a one-year-old in tow it's difficult hold on i

gotta change shitty diaper then i'll get back on the hunt it's not as easy you can't leave that kid in the car no no you can't hey keep an eye out out here make sure she doesn't go buckling buckling unbuckling buckling god damn. I'll leave you my gun. Right. You're not going to do that. It's tough. Hold this, Casey. You're going to be all right. You'll be fine. No, it's not like that.

So he goes out to look for Tammy. At about 1 a.m., so he's out for a while here, at about 1 a.m., he spoke with Tammy's sister, Deborah, and Deborah suggested maybe Tammy might have gone to the Nickelodeon because Daniel is going to be there. So I think maybe she talked about that. I'm not sure about it, but you might want to check over there. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth

Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan

and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity,

that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So at 1.10 a.m., 10 minutes after they marched her out the door, Andy calls the Nickelodeon and is told that Tammy and Daniel had already left the bar. Her uncle, they already left. They left a few. You just missed them. Yeah. So one of those things.

Just missed them. She took a good nap. She's fine. She should be. Yeah. She should be good by now. Bright eyed and bushy tail by the time she gets home. She should be good by now. Bright-eyed and bushy-tailed by the time she gets home.

So Andy left the bar, assuming that, okay, well, she's with her uncle hanging out, and they left. Eventually, she'll be home, basically. Great sleuthing, by the way, Andy. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Nice work. Maybe that's where he was. God, he's quick.

Maybe he's a fucking major crimes detective or something for the local police department. That was incredible. I'm telling you. Followed the leads. And he's only 10 minutes off the trail. It's bad i gotta be honest here he is good yeah so he then uh he goes he says fuck it i'll go to sleep i'm sure she'll be home soon he's tired and he goes she'll be home soon uh he wakes up that morning and she's still not there so he's like okay now that's not normal get back on the hunt what's Paul Bowles. Yeah, what's going on here?

What's going on there, Billy? So on the next morning, it's a Friday morning, February 8th. At about noon, Andy and the woman, Sharon, who was watching the baby, they go to the Nickelodeon and they see that Tammy's car is there still. So they're like, okay, Tammy's car is there. Must have been here all night because you know you know morning in a bar a friday morning at a bar yeah is there's that's the most depressing shit two cars of people that were too drunk to be there and like one of the employees cars that broke down three months ago and they haven't been able to get a trickle of

puke and some puke and yeah like a couple of bottles right it's always some beer bottles of people snuck out water Water bottle full of piss. Yeah, over there. It's all ugly. It's not great. So you can smell this parking lot. So they learn that. He starts asking around because there's employees coming in.

They start getting the place ready. He asks around and he learns that Kenneth Bieros drove away with Tammy. That's the last person that anybody saw tammy with so you know he might be the guy to talk to so this is oh andy this is amazing and he's i can feel his blood right now oh yeah it's so warm yeah he doesn't know whether he doesn't know whether to be afraid or angry right now that's the thing here both those feelings make him want to puke and shit at the same time. Yeah. It's a terrible gut feeling. I would say.

Jesus Christ. So, Tammy, so Andy drives to Bieros' house, goes to Kenneth's house, finds out his address. This is exactly what people do, like detectives do in the police force. Usually not this well in our show. And on our show, other places, yeah, but on our show, these small town police forces, they could use andy they better deputize this motherfucker deputize good fuck that just you're on the force i don't you're the sheriff sir put a badge on your little belt there and put a tie on get out

there and investigate some shit that's all you need dress them like woody yeah perfect good even better so uh yeah he's uh he he's there he he talks to kenneth and kenneth said oh dude yeah i fucking you know i i was there last night he goes we got about three uh tenths of a mile down the road from the nickelodeon there and he said she just got out of the car she said uh you know he tapped her on the shoulder she was out cold and he was like, hey, wake up. I'm driving you home. And he said that Kenneth said she, quote, freaked out, got out of the car and started running through these people's yards on

Davis Street in Sharon, Pennsylvania. That's what he says. So he's like, she just took off, started running down the street. And he said, look, I got, you know, I got out of the car, started to go after her. But then I thought, it's 1 o'clock in the morning, I'm chasing a woman through people's yards, this looks bad, plus I'm shit

faced and I don't want to get a DWI. So the cops get called, they're going to come find me with my car, chasing a woman that doesn't look good for me. So I said, fuck it, if she wants to run, she ain't my fucking problem, and I drove home. I don't know what to tell you, dude. Your wife fucking drove, ran away. That's what he told her. So that's what he told him.

All right. tell you dude your wife fucking drove ran away that's what he told her so that's what he told him so uh all right andy uh andy's a little suspicious of kenneth yeah andy says that uh tell you what i already contacted the police in sharon uh pennsylvania and i intend to file a missing persons report here in brookfield township with the police department and he tells uh andy also tells kenneth quote if tammy doesn't turn up right fast they're gonna come looking for you and it's gonna be your ass which sounds like the lyric from like a outlaw country song that rhymes as a motherfucker that is an outlaw country tammy don't turn up right fast they're gonna come looking for you and it's gonna be your ass and then it really kicks in yeah hey it's like gonna be your ass sorry that's fucking that's a great quote it's a great quote to tell a guy who he's the last guy to be seen with your

missing wife he said that shit right in his eyes that's what i mean that's that's i love andy andy's my man right now the best dude we've ever had in any story awesome so far so uh now he bureaus tells everybody the same story that day because people are asking him hey where's tammy where's tammy and he goes hey look he told uh tammy's mother her brother her uncle her friends yeah her acquaintances butcher the baker candlestick baker the doctor and the dentist who are still in business all of them were there everyone from the many banks everyone was here it was pretty awesome so he told her that he and angstrom we left the nickelodeon she woke up she became frightened started didn't remember didn't know who the fuck i was because she was drunk when

we met because it's our first time meeting yeah and then it occurred to me yeah this was a fucking bad idea to give her this does seem silly right and jump jumped out ran between houses three yards what am i gonna do run through people's yards chasing a strange woman in the middle of the night who doesn't want me to be near? That's what? No. You know what he sounds like to me, though, is a guy at a gas station with a really great story asking you for 50 cents. Yeah. That guy.

Yeah. It's a good story. It's a great story. It's logical. He's this short of bus fare. Right. He's that short. He's 50 cents short.

He's 50 cents short. That's what he can see his kid while he's still on life support. And he says that shit because he knows that nobody has 50 cents anymore. Somebody's going to give him a 5, 10, or 20. That's one, exactly. Fuck out of my life, sir. I have like 38 cents. I really...

38 cents. That's all I need. And they give you like a four minute story for 38 cents. It's like, just walk up and go, you got a dollar? Fuck, I'd have given you the dollar. You didn't need to waste... I got much more respect for you if you just go, I don't have have it do you have a dollar yes i have no money i'll give you money i don't i will you know me i can fucking home i don't care there you go i've seen you give

it don't give a shit yeah it's i i feel bad if people don't have money yeah you find the oldest person in each town that's homeless and you like to drop a quick 10 spot on them yeah usually i do i do i can't stand when old people are homeless it's horrible and you like to drop a quick 10 spot on them yeah usually yeah i do i do i can't stand when old people are homeless it's horrible you have done something for someone that they are not doing for you now at this point i see an old homeless woman forget about it oh jesus anything i got james is buying her house i can't deal with it you get a house and you get a house well i'm like you probably have children you probably raised people and they've fucking let this happen to you right fucking makes me crazy i picture my grandmother on the street drives me nuts so um he also says

he tells several people i chased her on foot for a while and the varying the amount of chasing varies from person to person uh you know whether he chased her for i chased her for quarter mile and i couldn't do it anymore or whether i just got out of the car took three steps and said jesus what am i doing i can't chase a woman. So it's one of those things. A bunch of people that he talked to also said they observed cuts and scratches on his hands and a fresh wound over his right eye. Oh.

Kenneth Biro. So he says that he hurt his hands because he locked himself out of his house last night. That's how his hands got hurt and he had to break a window and he cut himself up there and his eye he cut a couple days ago chopping night. That's how his hands got hurt and he had to break a window and he cut himself up there and his eye, he cut a couple days ago

chopping wood. It's February, chopping wood and chip comes up, hit me right in the eye, son of a bitch, which happens. So I mean,

believable enough but suspicious the night after someone disappears. He even, Kenneth assists her relatives in searching for her. He joins the search party. I don't know where,

I wish I would have found her. I feel bad that she ran away. I didn't know where i wish i would have found her i feel bad that she ran away i didn't know what to do let me help you find her he's doing like that so they're going yeah andy said it's gonna be my ass it's gonna be my ass find her i'm responsible for this shit it's gonna be my ass i believe her god damn it so now gonna be here i love that yeah not only the most gangster thing it was it's gonna ass. And it's what anybody would want to say and say. That's great. After he like did detective work to hunt this guy down.

He's like, Wyatt Earp this fucking guy. I love him, Andy. Wyatt's last ride. It is. Wyatt Engstrom over here. So also at this point, Tammy's brother threatens to kill Kenneth if Tammy has been hurt in any way. Oh, shit.

I'll fucking kill you myself if she's hurt in any way. One of Tammy's uncles told Kenneth that if Tammy has been hurt in any way. I'll fucking kill you myself if she's hurt in any way. One of Tammy's uncles told Kenneth that if Tammy had been hurt, he would, quote, rip Kenneth's heart out. And then Tammy's mother told him as well, if you put one scratch on my daughter, I will fucking kill you. So this family is fucking great. I love this family. They are fucking great.

This is all appropriate behavior if someone is the last person seen with your daughter and given suspicious answers you threaten bodily fucking harm on them you this is perfect just reminding them listen hey uh if she turns up shitty uh in any set in any bad situation it's on you chief it's your ass i'm holding you it's it's gonna be your ass you know what you know what i'm talking about and i'm down with this stuff i'll kill you i'll rip your heart yeah fuck yes you will that's your fucking daughter and you should think like that i have no problem with that whatsoever and kenneth said hey listen told his told uh tammy's mother don't worry your daughter's going to be just fine you wait and see it's like don't worry it's gonna be just i don't know what's going on but i didn't

do nothing so you know don't everybody stop with the threatening let's all calm it down i don't know that i would be so uh quick to be telling people everything's gonna be fine yeah how the hell must she ran last i saw her she was running away right the last time the quote unquote last time you saw her she was hysterical running through the woods. Drunk running through another town. Fuck do you know it's okay. Yeah, she could have been eaten by a bear at this point. You idiot.

So Kenneth lives at, he lives on, this is his address here, 5956 Kingsgrave Road in Brookfield Township. He lives with his mother and his brother. His brother Kerry lives there as well. His mother Joanne and his brother Kerry. And his brother, his brother, Kerry, lives there as well. His mother, Joanne, and his brother, Kerry. So on Friday morning, February 8th, this is when this all is going on about the searching and everything. Beeros's mother, Joanne, found a gold ring on the bathroom floor at the house where her and Kenneth and Kerry live.

OK, so she asked Kerry about it. He didn't know anything about it. He she asked Kenneth about it. And't know anything about it she asked Kenneth about it and first he said shit I never saw that in my life I don't know

where that came from it's like a gold ring like a wedding band type of ring just a plain gold ring plain gold band yeah and then she

questioned him a little bit more about it and she said Carrie didn't leave the house where would it come from

and then he said oh you know whose it might be? He said, it might belong to the woman who jumped out of my car early in the morning. And mom's like, what? Why would that come back to the house? What are you talking about? And who the fuck is she?

A woman. And then he explained it. He's like, oh, it's down at the bar. Danny's niece. What happened? It's like, I mean, right? What do you do, mom? You can't do.

So the mother was like, well, I mean, you better get it back to her. It's a gold ring. You know, she's probably going to want it back. And he says to his mom, he tells his mother that the ring appeared to be made of, quote, cheap gold. And and so she said he said, I think she probably isn't even worried about looks like it's cheap gold. Looks like it's garbage. And she said, no, the ring's not cheap. It's it's gold it's a nice ring i can see it says fucking 18 carat on the inside of it it's fucking jeweler yeah it's a ring okay get out your fucking loop

let's go put on your loop and we're gonna look at this fucking gold at a closer what are you kidding me no so uh jesus christ so she said it's not cheap me and you know and he said i don't know maybe it belongs to that girl i don't know maybe it belongs to that girl i don't know he says tell you what i'll take it and i'll bring it back to the nickelodeon and i'll give it to her uncle's always there i'll give it to him and if it's hers you can give it back to her i don't know i don't i don't care about it oh boy so that's what he said so that's how that worked puts it in his pocket yeah as far as his mother knows it's going back to the bar so later that night this is friday february 8th this is they've been searching he's been threatened much bodily harm by her entire family rightfully so and uh i'm him

at this point and i have that ring let's say his story is true and checks out uh the last thing i'm doing is bringing uh pieces of jewelry back to that family yeah they just threatened to kill me that's essentially bringing a pinky back to them did i did i mention that i have her jewelry so she's gonna be fine have a ring but she's okay i mentioned how good she is i'm sure she's i think she's intact it's gonna be fine it's gonna be fine so kerry biros the brother he's home watching tv at the at the bureau's home here uh he's home watching tv and kenneth as uh kenneth is outside in a pasture behind the house okay uh carrie goes outside and calls to him to see what he's doing okay and uh kenneth responds that he is watching stars yeah that's what he says and then carrie comes back into the house and says he

went to bed so carrie ends up he's just watching he goes back in goes to sleep i guess ken i guess kenneth is watching quote watching stars i don't know you you look at stars yeah they don't really do anything you don't watch them generally move i'm watching them keep an eye on them they don't go nowhere it's like it's like you know right right you know, right, right. So February 9th comes around Saturday morning here. Police officers call Kenneth at home and they leave him a message on his answering machine requesting that he come down to the police station and answer some questions about Tammy's disappearance.

Yeah, that's fair. That seems exceedingly fair. It seems a little. You're the last one that's seen with him. They don't like go get him and say, hey, we need to talk to you, chief. Think of him. Hey, if you're if you're around town, if you're. It's a lot lighter of an interrogation or questioning or search than Andy's doing.

I would say that's what I mean. I want Andy on the case. This guy is just fucking you want to. If you're if you're in the neighborhood, you're free. Just swing by. Maybe you probably got shit to do it's like i understand he uh an officer frank murphy left the message on the uh on the machine said they'd like to interview him uh concerning the disappearance they think he might have some some information he asked him to go to the police station bureaus does he complies he says he's going to go down to

the police station on his way down to the police station a police officer passed him on the road this is how small of a town it is the police officer said oh yeah that's the guy we're looking for i know him and that's weird and imagine a phoenix if a cop was looking for jimmy wissman they wouldn't know you by sight no to pass you on the road you know what i mean so i would hope not anyway so So this police officer turns around, stops Kenneth and tells him that police would like to

speak with him. And he said, yeah, I'm on my way down there now. As a matter of fact, that's what I'm doing. And the cop was like, all right, good deal then. Have fun. Didn't say, well, I'll just take you down there. He said, yeah, enjoy. I'll see you there. See it. And the cop just goes about on his patrol going down and Biro's heads down to the police station he gets down there by himself about 5 35 p.m on a saturday evening he enters the station officer rocky fonts accompanies him to the

interrogation room hey rocco rocco you want to bring him in the interrogation i got him i feel like that name used to be della something yeah rocky della fonse yeah and then he's just like we're gonna go with fonts rocky fuck he's the big fuck they take quote accompanies people places he's not real bright no they're like rocco accompany him he's like i'll take him there and he just grabs him and just a mass of police uniform he grabs him around like one hand on each arm and just picks him up that way and take Harry's people places. Yeah, there you go. I'll take him there. It was about this interrogation room.

It's six by nine feet. It's a small room, interrogation room. It's got a desk, a cabinet, some chairs, a blood alcohol content analyzer for some reason, and a video camera set up. Okay. They leave the interrogation's door open when he goes in there. This is not like we're closing the door, sitting him in the corner. You know how leave the interrogations door door open when he goes in there this is not like we're closing the door sitting him in the corner you know how they do interrogations if you watch the first 48 this is not that at all okay open door uh his freedom isn't limited he's not handcuffed they don't tell him you have to sit there don't move he can get up and walk around do

whatever he wants this is 1991 this is 91 yeah uh he's not told he's under arrest or that he's free to leave at that point at all. Later on, they tell him he is free to leave. At some point during the, he has a 35 minute conversation. The officer there, John Clarick, tells him that he is free to leave. You're not required to answer these questions. You're not under arrest or anything like that. You can leave if you want, but we'd really love your help. Yeah.

So, you know, why would you not help us? When you put it that way, it's hard to go, why aren't you talking to you? That makes you look pretty fucking guilty. If you didn't do anything, you would want to help

find this person. So, giving him all the opportunity in the world to look not guilty. To look not, exactly. So, yeah. So, he ends up down there, free to leave at any point and all that sort of thing,

like we said. Not under arrest. So, he ends up repeating the same story he's told to everybody else he says i saw her she we she ran away we were at the nickelodeon uh i took her to get coffee and food in sharon pennsylvania that's the only difference now all of a sudden he went to sharon pennsylvania to get coffee and food he said that she passed out in the car but woke up while he was withdrawing money from an ATM. Now he's got an ATM involved in this whole thing. Now he says that when he got back to the car, she insisted that he drive her back to the Nickelodeon.

Now it's not, I woke her up and she said, oh my God, and ran away. Now it's, she woke up, he's getting money and she's like, you're going to drive me back there. He's getting she's getting money and she's like, you're going to drive me back there. So he says that as he was driving her, he turned around and he's driving her on Davis Street in Sharon, Pennsylvania, back to the Nickelodeon like she asked. And that's when she just jumped out of the vehicle and ran away. Just screaming through the. Now comes this part. You know how it goes.

Yeah. And they asked him whether whether she left her purse in his vehicle. He said that he cleaned his car today and he he didn't find any purse, so no. I was cleaning shit out today, food wrappers and shit, and I didn't see a purse. I'm an alcoholic. My car's a fucking mess. I mean, I was ankle deep in beer bottles. I got to be honest with you. It didn't look good if I got pulled over by y'all, you know what I mean?

So I got rid of them, figured I was coming to the station. I should probably clear out the rum bottle from the front seat floorboard things like that so uh during this this uh captain clarick here he starts to question uh his account a little bit he started because at first it's just yeah tell us your story oh wow that's crazy then he starts asking questions and it's not challenging questions at first it's just trying to get him to give more details you know what i mean? So he starts challenging it a little bit, though. He says that maybe he says, look, I mean, look, I mean, we're both guys.

You know how this is. It's like, you know. So he says, you know, we're both guys. He goes, you got a pretty young girl, 22 years old. She's cute, too, Tammy, isn't she? Yeah, she's sitting in your car next to you. She's got a baby she puts out. You know that't she's yeah she's sitting in your car next to you baby she puts out you know that yeah so she's sitting next to you she's liquored up you're liquored up it's late at night you know maybe you got an idea of hey maybe this she likes me you know he's not i'm not saying you were gonna jump on her but maybe you thought hey you got a vibe going on you're feeling the vibe so he says maybe is it possible that you maybe made a little advance

toward her to further that and then that caused her to flee the vehicle because we're having a hard time believing that she said drive me here you said okay you stopped at a stop sign and then she screamed and ran out of the vehicle like she was on fire right that's just a bizarre story it's a bizarre story drunk or not that's not that's aberrant behavior that one's not getting 50 cents yeah i'm sorry yeah i'm going to give you your 37 cents. I can't give it to you. Sorry at all. So he said, I didn't make any sexual advantage talking about.

He's like, no way. He goes, I was driving her back there. She's a married woman. He's got slack. We got a gentleman here now. Gentlemen, God damn it. I'm a fucking gentleman. What are you talking about?

So this cleric here, he suggests that, you know, is that possible? He said, maybe he said, said look maybe she jumped out look i'm so i'm not saying that maybe you were just like hey maybe me and you i'm not saying you stuck your hand down her pants maybe you made a little advance maybe she took it a little too like it was a little too aggressive who knows maybe she jumped out of the vehicle maybe she like slipped down hit her head somewhere hurt herself and you got scared and maybe brought her somewhere i mean nothing we're not saying you did anything wrong the vehicle maybe she like slipped down hit her head somewhere hurt herself and you got scared and maybe brought her somewhere i mean nothing we're not saying you did anything wrong we're just saying maybe you just got scared we would understand that strange woman in the car with you

looks like you tried to touch her and you don't want to get i totally understand that so if it's an accident and that's what happened just tell us about it tell us where she is and then we can you know we can work it out obviously now and that would still be a murder charge or something but they're gonna make him sound like they're walking him right into being able to tell us where the hell she is though yeah he said no that doesn't you know having them every time they gave him that scenario an opportunity to say something the words in his head were i will fucking kill you i will fucking kill you it's your ass four different people's words i will fucking maim you i will rip out your heart i believe was the one that was told to me actually rip it from your chest right so yeah so with those words

said no have no clue where she is nothing uh so he says no no that didn't happen so again they go through it again because this is what they'll do in a homicide investigation and interrogation they'll go over the story 50 times yeah you'll see an interrogation it's eight hours long what the fuck are they talking about for eight hours they're going over that same story 50 times because anytime you slip up on one detail and that's a half hour we're going to talk about that so that's any migration of this story one way or the other we got to talk that's it and when you have someone that's guilty you try to give them opportunities they talk about it in the homicide book the david simon book it's a window picture a tiny window at the upper upper portion of the room that window

looks so far away you have to make that little window of escape look accessible to them it's up there it's tiny but you can get through it if you just tell us what we want to hear. And then you close it and you put them away forever. That's how it works. You slam that window shut. Gotcha, bitch. Gotcha, bitch. That's exactly what it is.

So it goes a little further. They go through it again. And again, every time you go through the story, it doesn't make sense. So every time you go through the story, you get to the part where she runs away for no reason. You don't know where it is, where she is. It's like we're at a sticking point, buddy, because that's the part where it doesn't make sense so every time you go through the story you get to the part where she runs away for no reason you don't know where it is where she is it's like we're at a sticking point buddy because that's the part where it doesn't make any sense everything else makes sense up to that point we believe you he says look maybe it was an accident cleric says let me just hear me out he says what if it's an accident she maybe she's drunk maybe she maybe she had got sick open the

door to throw up maybe she fell out of the car. There you go. Maybe she hit her head. And, you know, maybe something like that happened. Maybe you accidentally rolled over. You know, and she said, that's something. I mean, someone opens the door to throw up. They're sick. They hit their head. You're trying to do a good deed.

That's not your fault. That's an accident. But we need to know where she is. Could something like that have possibly happened? And Kenneth responded, yes. So now it's a way different story now. So now it's like, okay story now so now it's like okay this has gone from uh you know casual conversation somebody closed that rocky closed the door thank

you that door matter of fact stand in front of it stand in front of it and stare at him uh and then uh after a few a little while longer he said that he uh uh he'd quote, done something very bad. Oh, no. So it's at this point that Clark, because Clark seems to have this connection with him, this Captain Clark. He's the guy that got him to believe him. So he says, you want to speak to me alone? Why don't we speak alone? Let's clear the room and let's talk man to man.

Just me and you. Me and you. So clears the room, gets the other detective out of there. Rocky away from the door. He's big ass. One on one. Rocky one you're on break that's it rocky's like i was already on break he's got half a roast beef sandwich in his mouth let's eat it on the porch a whole rigatoni stuck to his tie it's not even a spot of sauce it's

just a whole rigatoni noodle just hanging there dried and jesus christ little lasagna dripping from the left side of his mouth it's like what i had a snack what do you want from me three meals for lunch my mother made it for me what was i supposed to do not let it go bad jesus it's like he is from there yeah so uh they get all the everybody else leaves they're alone in the room now so now it's time. Now it's going to get awkward. It's what they call nut cutting time. Now it's the real deal now. What's going to happen here? So now they get together.

Beeros tells him this, and I quote, It's like you said, we were in the car together. We were out along the railroad tracks. I touched her hand. Then I went further. I either touched her. I either touched or felt her leg. She pushed my hand away.

The car wasn't quite stopped at that point. He said, quote, she opened the door and fell out and struck her head on the railroad tracks. That's his story. She's the car was still moving. She opened the door to try to get away from his light leg touching. And she's drunk and the car is moving. So she fell, hit her head on the metal railroad track. Holy shit.

Now she's down there now. He says this was down the railroad tracks near Kingsgrave Road in Brookfield Township. You know, by his house. Right by his house. That's why we gave his address there. So, yeah, this is interesting. He then signs a waiver of his Miranda rights because none of this has been, none of this is under oath. None of this is uh interesting he then signs a waiver of his miranda rights because none of this has been none of this is under oath none of this is mirandized yeah none of that shit counts

that he just said doesn't matter doesn't matter that that in court that means nothing unless he's mirandized now they miranda him and they say want to tell us that story again first of all they should have mirandized him oh my god a long time you're supposed to mirandize someone like the the law constitutionally the moment they're a suspect. Yeah. The moment, if you bring someone in as a witness, the moment you think of them as a suspect and question them as a suspect, you have to Mirandize them. He was a suspect well before this. So when he said, hey, we're going to be alone and talk about this, that should have been, I got to Mirandize you first.

But he didn't because he was trying to get the story out of him he had to that was the massaging that cop had to do in that situation to get this confession out of him was to say we need to be alone and make it a very small thing not a on paper you know as an official thing which is why they have miranda so it's it's a double-edged sword here andy was ready to read him to him the day he found him andy would have yeah and he's like, you motherfucker. You have the right to remain. You son of a bitch. I will rip your fucking heart out.

You listen to me. It's your ass. That's what he says. By the end of it, the right to remain is not. Court, fucking, proceedings, lawyers, all that shit. You got rights to them. Or it's your ass. Or it's your ass.

Either one of them. I'll tell you what. God writes to him. Or it's your ass. Or it's your ass. Either one of them. We'll tell you what. Now, it's at this point that he also has to deliver his story, not only to the one guy. Now, also, Rocky Fonts comes in, too, to, I guess, muscle it out of him.

And Kenneth tells the police here that her body is in Pennsylvania. Says Tammy's body is in Pennsylvania. That's all he would say. Then they said, well, where in Pennsylvania? It's's a big state could you be slightly more specific than that pittsburgh and pennsylvania far it's like it'll be france and california it's like seven hours from pittsburgh to philly there's a lot in there and it's just farms and she could be anywhere so uh it's an exit amish people we don't know what's happening. So he says at this point, no, I won't tell you exactly where I'd like an attorney now. Now is when he lawyers up to this point.

So they have to let him. All right. Well, we got to stop now. He calls an attorney. Attorney comes, consults with him. Okay. Yeah. And I assume the conversation went something like that, like this.

He told the attorney what happened. The attorney nodded. Okay. Okay. And then he said, okay something like that, like this. He told the attorney what happened. The attorney nodded. Okay. Okay. And then he said, okay, listen, stupid. Yeah. You told them fucking what? You said you did it and you gave them the location.

Not an exact location, but a fucking state and said that her quote body is there. What are you holding back for at this point? What are you fucking trying to? Who cares? You dumb shit. Just tell them where the body is. It doesn't matter now. It can only get worse for dumb shit? Just tell him where the body is. It doesn't matter now. It can only get worse for you.

I would tell him where the body is. Maybe it'll help. Literally what the attorney said. Like, hey, dummy. So, and I only say that because he came back after talking to the attorney and said, okay, I'll tell you where the body is. Good Lord. So that's, the attorney talked him into telling him where the body was.

Now I have to tell you, for the next little while here there's some graphic stuff um not really graphic in terms of like this is what happened but graphic in terms of the result oh no and the uh medical type uh analysis of this so words to paint a good picture to get a good idea if you're sensitive to gory stuff as far as that because this is you won't hear a lot of like like i said like the actual you know this is what she felt and things like that but just the the medical cold analysis of it then you might want to skip ahead a little bit here uh but the uh we'll get into it now the uh ohio authorities um discovered several this is not great several of tammy's body parts in a wooded area not together just several of her parts scattered uh in but and uh in a wooded area

of butler county pennsylvania on february 10th just like on the ground scattered around yeah um they also found other portions of her body portions Portions. Portions in a desolate wooded area of Venago or Venaggio County, Pennsylvania, which is 30 miles north of where they found the other parts. So, so far they found two sections of parts that are 30 miles apart. That's a lot. That's a lot. We're talking a lot of shit here. Okay, here's where it gets bad.

Tammy's head and her right breast oh my god we're severed he took all this apart he took but left breast intact took the right breast off and the head off okay her right leg has been amputated above the knee so head right breast and half a leg that's what he decides that he's going to cut off, which is very strange. I don't know. Specific. It's very specific. That's what I mean.

Right side, both on the right side. I don't know what significance of that was or whatever. But yeah, the main portion of her body that they find is completely naked, except for what appears to be the remnants of her stockings, her black stockings that were rolled down around her ankles. Okay. Jesus Christ. Okay. Her torso had also been cut open.

And the abdominal cavity was what the autopsy, the medical examiner called partially eviscerated. Just empty. Yeah. Let's see here. Yeah. Her head and right breast and right leg and intestines were found in a swampy area in Ohio. They found that her leg, before it was severed, was broken over a railroad track.

That's how it was broken. Wow. Over a railroad track. Think about that. How do you do that that like standing on it think about that that is fucking brutal and horrific so painful that's horrible and the torso was found in rural pennsylvania and uh we'll find out here a part of her liver was found in his car what in his car i thought he cleaned it out well they missed a spot apparently yeah um uh wow no purse but i got some liver those shop backs aren't what they used to be no it was 91 yes they came they're good now forensic technicians here and law enforcement

they searched the area of the railroad tracks where he indicated that the incident started and they discover a large area of bloodstained gravel near the tracks which would be consistent with you know fucking dismembering somebody somewhere uh blood spatters on the side of one of the steel tracks and numerous other blood stains in the same general area this scene just looks like oh i'm sure it was a bloodbath fucking blood everywhere how did he get into his mom's house and she not see this shit? It's fucking, but he's in the middle of the night. Comes home in the middle of the night. Oh, my.

There should be blood all over her house of him bumping into shit drunk. Everywhere. Yeah. Maybe he's sobered up by then. Blood stains and swabbing of blood collected at the scene were tested and found to be consistent with Tammy's blood. So we know it's definitely her. Well, I mean, it's 91. 91 so it's shaky but it's her uh later on they do dna matches and find out for sure just so they have a solid case and they also found what appears to be part of uh like i said

the part of her intestines in a swampy area near the railroad tracks so he just took them out and just like threw them like don't need those yeah and threw them away it's like he's unpacking a trunk looking for a specific pair of socks. Yeah, exactly. Just throwing everything out. Where did I put my charger? Right. That's what it was. Wow.

Is it behind her liver? No. Unbelievable. This guy's a piece of shit, man. What was he looking for? I don't know. DNA testing confirmed the intestines were Tammy's. Like, there's other intestines just in the area.

They also end up finding later on her black leather coat partially buried near the railroad tracks so he's trying to cover that up uh there were two cuts uh what they called slash marks uh on or near the collar of the coat like she still had it on when he went after her with the knife um her house keys and a tube of lipstick were also found in another shallow hole right near the coat so then he buried those separately in a shallow thing right next to the coat which is weird uh one of her black leather shoes was also found in the area near the tracks so he didn't do too good of a job hiding that um they searched his house

a number of items were recovered by police during the search of his house including a blood-stained pocket knife another much larger knife there you go also bloodstained makes more sense that they end up saying later on would be a consistent knife with being able to saw off a fucking leg yeah this type of thing a blood-stained coat later identified as the coat that he wore to the nickelodeon by everyone at the nickelodeon and a pair of size 11 tennis shoes that we'll talk about here blood stains from the pocket knife for coat and coat were found to be tammy's blood on there and additionally they found a hair embedded in a seam of near the tread of one of the tennis shoes that was tested and it is tammy's hair as well he's framed yeah obviously i mean where's mark firman so the the they also searched his car uh the one he drove

down to the police department they identified several blood stains in the car some were consistent with her blood and others were consistent with his blood uh and also a small piece of piece of what they uh later figured to to be Tammy's liver was found in the trunk. Wow. In the trunk. I'll just put that here for later. Wow. Yeah.

This is how dangerous it is to be a woman. That's what I mean. That is fucking crazy. It's fucking crazy. This has never happened to a man. Very rarely. It's rare. No man has ever been sitting drinking with his uncle.

No woman has done this to him. No, no, no. And been taken by a woman and eviscerated. Other have done this jeffrey dahmer did this to guys but yeah this is what it's like everybody's it's that dave chappelle joke that's the one of the best jokes i've ever heard when he talks about very quickly that's raping no no no he goes he did a gig when he was a starting out as a comic didn't have a lot of money and it was for a drug dealer. He paid him in cash and gave him $25,000 in cash in the 90s.

And then he had to go home through bad neighborhoods and on the subway and shit with $25,000 in cash on him. And he said he's never been so fucking scared in his life. He was just constantly- He's never in his life had something on him that somebody else might want. He said he was so aware that it was on him and everybody wanted it and everybody was looking at him he's afraid everybody's trying to steal and he goes that's what it's like to be a woman and i went whoa holy shit every guy needs to hear that fucking joke because that's what every woman feels like all the fucking time right that's terrible so it's fucking weird something that

everybody wants to take from them guys think about that when you're approaching a woman right think about they they're they're clutching 25,000 dollars that they're scared you're going to try to take from them because that's what they've experienced is what's going to happen to them or they've heard a lot and i don't blame them and i would be upset too and it happens that's the other point that's what i mean it's not it's not a conspiracy theory they just have a we're talking about it right we have 150 episodes where 100 of them are men doing shit yeah and here's one where you meet a dude randomly that your uncle fucking knows yeah and he's like trying to be the nice guy take her home and she is turned inside out and taken apart but this is

why small town murder is interesting because you wouldn't expect this right you don't expect that your uncle's friend who you or your uncle set you up with a ride home from the bar of everybody knows everybody's going to eviscerate you and leave you scattered around two different states you know what i'm saying this is something that these people in this town would be like oh man if you go to cleveland they'll eviscerate you maybe around three different states that's what they think it's a city thing but it's it's it's not that's the point of this show not specific to any any area because this is fucking everywhere it's fucking everywhere uh okay here's another uh gets bad for a second here uh the uh autopsy reveals that she suffered 91 post-mortem injury are 91 uh injuries indicative

of a severe beating and uh an attempt at sexual mutilation and five stab wounds that were inflicted immediately after the death overall 91 injuries to her uh the uh like we said her her head right breast lower extremity had been severed from her body this is this is crazy man um her her her well just i'll just read it medically from their autopsy her anus rectum urinary bladder and virtually all of her sexual organs had been removed and were never found what uh her gallbladder the right low lobe of her liver and portions of her bowels were also extracted from her body she may as well have been put through a wood chipper it's fucking ridiculous there's nothing left of this poor woman.

No, this is... And anything that's left of her doesn't have any dignity. He took all of it. No, this is the sickness that you... I don't even know. How do you even do that? That seems like it would take forever to do. This seems like this isn't the first time he's fucking killed a woman.

There's no way. There's no fucking way that you go your whole life, you have one DUI, and then one day you just decide, I'm going to attack, dismember, and eviscerate a woman there's no way that you go your whole life you have one dui and then one day you just decide i'm going to attack dismember and eviscerate a woman over 30 miles over a 30 mile stretch i don't know if he does this normally with prostitutes or some other people that are less uh you know less searched so no one will come to you and say they're gonna it's your ass if i don't find her right shit like that and then he was so drunk this night he couldn't control himself and was presented with the opportunity because that's what would happen to dommer is he would know better but he was like fuck i'm drunk and it would happen so i don't know if that's what happened to him or what it is but

they don't get into that can of worms this is so much i mean an fbi profiler would sit down and go yeah this isn't there's no way that's probably not the first time i mean it was messy and clumsy and shit but he did try to cover it up and he didn't so who knows uh the coroner here uh did not find any evidence that tammy had been struck by an automobile as he claimed because he claimed maybe i hit her with my car he was trying to make up stories and concluded that she in fact died of asphyxia instead so she was strangled uh yes uh he determined that uh yeah the uh jesus christ these severe beatings. Wow.

The premortem wounds were at least five blunt force injuries on the top of her head, which, according to the pathologist here, had been caused by an object such as fists or the handle of a knife. Other premortem wounds were found on her breasts and in the area of her groin so he was attacking the woman the femaleness of her right um other premortem wounds were found uh it's there two two premortem knife wounds were discovered near the nipple of her right breast that's all she that's all he attacked um these were there were fine linear scratches and a premortem nice knife laceration or incised wound along the victim's face so he did that too yeah absolutely according to the pathologist quote the way that is uh the way that is done is the blade of the knife runs down the mouth and finally gets to the skin is what it is he says uh into the soft tissues then breaks the skin as it continues

its downward direction uh he said he found numerous wounds on her hands, which were defensive wounds, too. So she was very much conscious and aware that this was happening. Yeah, extracted pretty much everything from her body. The pocket knife, like the one removed from his basement, could have been used to inflict some of the wounds found on her. have been used to inflict some of the wounds found on her uh although the much larger heavier knife that they found had to be used to amputate her you know head and leg and shit like that and um the pathologist also testified that her right femur had been severed by a sharp knife which had left a fine linear cut in the bone so yeah he cut the bone doing it there uh also he determined that evidence indicated that

the femur had not been fractured by any blunt force trauma as a result of an auto accident instead uh he said that uh the knife recovered from the bathroom was consistent with the type of knife that had been used to accomplish amputations oh my god jesus found that the dismemberment and eviscerations all occurred within minutes after the five postmortem stab wounds. So he killed her, hacked her a few times, and then just immediately decided to start cutting her up. Yeah. Wow. They said that the cause of death was asphyxia due to strangulation.

She had been strangled over a period of four to five minutes. The mucosal lining of the esophagus was torn, indicating there was a degree of retching and vomiting during this period. Also, the pathologist said that she had not been asphyxiated by a hand placed over her mouth and nose. It was definitely a choking. The examination of her oral cavity revealed no signs of injury to the tongue or delicate tissue inside the mouth, which comes from that a lot of times.

So, yeah, it's definitely strangled to death is what he thinks. He's going to be charged with some shit here. He's going to be charged with, number one, aggravated murder. That's something. Also, felonious sexual penetration, which sounds like the worst. Yeah, penetration ever. You can't get a worse charge than that like as far as for like reputation goes or just like anybody thinking of you as a human felonious sexual penetration any sort of sexual crime that's the one and you had felonious to it

and it sounds awful uh abusive corpse aggravated robbery attempted rape now these are death penalty charges because the aggravated robbery and the uh felonious sexual penetration are aggravators to the murder sure so that is they're going for the death penalty here which you know guys we've talked we're not huge death penalty fans but every once in a while when you get somebody that just let andy and the brother do it yeah give the andy and the brother and the mom she wants to rip his fucking heart out give them five minutes and let turn your backs and let shit happen as it happens let it be his ass let it be it's like you know yeah listen if you're willing to do that just to a person i don't care about you at that point you did it i i don't give a fuck about you as i mean a father

a brother i don't care it doesn't matter yeah done with you at that point. Just as a human being. Yeah, we don't need this guy. If you can see that guy doing that. We don't need this guy. Fuck him. He told them that he looked at her while he was doing it as more of an object than a person. That's what I mean. He sincerely will do this again.

We don't need that. Oh, he will absolutely do. You don't do that once and go, got that out of my system. That was crazy. That's over. He ends up pleading not guilty to all charges. I mean, not guilty. I don't know.

State of Ohio dismisses the abuse of corpse charge prior to trial. I would say if there's one charge, it's definitely going to stick. That's the one. That should be the one. That's not abuse? I guess not. What the hell constitutes abuse in Ohio? That's what I mean.

Apparently not dismemberment. So it must be very specific. Or maybe they were just deciding when she was dead. I don't know. This is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's pretty hard to live without your intestines. That's and the rest in your head.

Right. Also, that's the other one. Right, right. So, you know. As soon as that's thrown away. Yeah, it's a problem after that. He's abusing the shit out of that corpse. I would fucking say so.

So he's being held on $250,000 bond. it's a problem after that he's abusing the shit out of that course i would fucking say so so he's being held on 250 000 bond it's a cash bond so that ain't happening no uh yes they once they release the uh autopsy report too it's not great to everybody now the the media does not get the access they want uh in the pre-trial. They want law enforcement records and things like that. Uh, and the, uh, they end up voting to uphold the lower court's decision to release some, but not all of the documents sought. So he said there were some, uh,

possible witnesses that they didn't want to, uh, uh, contaminate and things like that. So, uh, there was a quote here. It would allow the defendant to get information he otherwise would not get.

And it would create a great deal of inflammatory prejudicial information about the case prior to trial. So I think it's one of those you're trying to stop them from saying that the pretrial publicity fucked up his trial. So it's basically this is to stop an appeal. That's all that is. Let's make it so he can't appeal as much now he uh he fucking challenges in the beginning the judge puts a cap on how much his defense team because he has public defenders how much they're allowed to spend on experts uh that's going to be paid for by the state they put a cap on it so the he fights to challenge the limits that he's allowed to spend on expert testimony um yeah the the public

defender says he's going to continue to argue for more money to hire experts for physical evidence and shit like that to try to challenge. How much money does he have? No, but none. He doesn't have shit. This is the public defender. Oh, so he's using... Yeah, the state, because it has to be even.

You can't say, here's a public defender. You have one lawyer that has 800 other cases, and the state has every crime lab and experts. You can't that so state tax funds you can't do that has to be even for it to be a fair trial so you have to get if the state has experts you have to give the defense experts as well if we're gonna fucking do this and if we're gonna kill people shit has to be fair and right or else we can't fucking do that because that's why a lot of people get end up uh you know vindicated off of death row i'm on board for that shit so yeah uh now during the trial kenneth testifies oh that's that's brave that's all he can do he has to tell his side of the story otherwise he's in a courtroom yeah with a with a

fucking confession that's the other and if you're a jury you're looking at all you have is his words which make him sound like a and the evidence and the autopsy report which you hear you see and read that and you go wow this person's a monster yeah so you have to humanize this person if you're his attorney he has to testify just to go look he's not a monster he's in he's a human he's approachable and that sort of shit he was kidding yeah he's he's just joshing so uh she says that Tammy is on trial now. He says Tammy suddenly awoke in his car and began yelling, quote, I don't know who you are. Where are we at?

And then she hit Beeros and yelled at him. She said she just started hitting me while I'm driving and shit like that. I'm trying to drive. She's hitting me. So he said that he swung his forearm to to like hey stop doing that and like hit her with his forearm you know to get her to stop hitting her uh get stop her from hitting him he claimed that he drove along the railroad tracks to try to head and then she got out of the car and ran away after he hit her he hit her and she got out of the car ran away toward the railroad tracks he claims

he drove along the railroad tracks to try to head Tammy off to speak with her. You know, like he's in his police cruiser. He's trying to get a hold ahead of the suspect here. But he says while he was doing that, because she was drunk and swerving and it was dark out, he ended up accidentally hitting her with the car, causing her to fall over and hit her head on the position, her head toward the uh toward the gravel rail bed there so she fell over doing that he says she exploded everywhere so i took her 30 miles her intestines flew it was crazy she she exploded so hard her liver was in my trunk that's right through the trunk and it was closed i don't know how that happened very hard so fucking idiot so he testifies that he got out of the car and rolled her over onto her back he said she was bleeding and her head was positioned against the steel roll uh steel rail of the

railroad track there so he said tammy at this point again began pushing him and screaming and swearing and throwing rocks at him okay okay it's just you know i get away from me and doing all of that you know because you hit her and she fell out of your car then you hit her with a car right according to your testimony just according to that so far so far what she whatever she's doing is fair okay so then he says and this is i don't know how you say this in a courtroom with a straight face he says he decided to pull out his pocket knife to calm her down. Tell you what. Hey, guys. I know this has turned into hey, guys.

This is a tip for you. Hey, guys. Just a small tip. If a woman is ever upset, taking your knife out will never calm her down. That's going to always do the opposite. She's never going to go, oh, I feel better now. A stranger who I'm scared of has a knife now. Now I feel better.

Oh, good. And it's darker than the railroad by the railroad tracks at three in the morning. I'm feeling great. The only light is coming from your vehicle's headlight. This is not scary at all. No, not at all. To try to calm her down. He said, however, she she grabbed the knife.

Good. She's a fucking ninja. She's smart. And a struggle ensued. And he said that he cut his hand while this happened, while he was grabbing for it. But then he was able to regain control of the knife after that. He said, though, she continued to scream, just kept screaming and screaming and screaming. So he said that he pinned her down and put his hand over her mouth to stop her from screaming.

And he said after he just held it there till she stopped struggling. But then when he removed his hand, he realized she was dead. He did like a Lenny thing. He just pet her too hard. Like it was like mice and men and shit. Like, no, that's why it's important that the autopsy says she absolutely wasn't killed by the mouth.

She was strangled. So her, his story doesn't hold any fucking water here. Yeah. So he said, oh my God, she's dead. What do I do?

So he said he became upset and frustrated that this happened like another one oh god these hands like it keeps happening so he said that he uh he was so upset and frustrated the only thing he could do was stab her several times because he was so mad that it happened that son of a bitch bastard this is a story that he's telling to a courtroom in court a jury that's going to decide what to do with him this is his story this is his best story that he has okay you know how they have me on trial for murder that's not what happened i murdered her let me tell you it's way worse let me tell you about it yeah i murdered her i didn't kill her i murdered her good What the fuck is he doing? Being a fucking idiot. So, yeah, he stabbed her several times.

He says that after he had killed and stabbed her, he panicked. He didn't know what to do. He panicked to dry and he just drove home to tend to his wounds and wash his clothes because he's like, oh, Jesus, look at me. I got blood on me. What do I do? So then he said he returned to the body. He returned to the body 15 to 20 minutes later, which that's pretty quick.

It's the fastest bloody shower I've ever heard of. I mean, it is right behind his house, but yeah, you need more than that. A bloody shower? Yeah. It must take forever. That's what I mean. Blood doesn't come off easy. No, he's got all of her blood on him.

All of it, literally. I tried to get a nosebleed clean. It took me 20 minutes. That's what I mean. Well, this is, I don't know how you can say this in public either this fucking idiot uh he said that he returned to the body 15 20 minutes later later and when he got there he became very angry at tammy he said because he believed that tammy had quote just destroyed my life wow that's what he said in court she did it she destroyed his life okay uh at that

point he said he took his pocket knife and began cutting on her body he said that he uh he said he removed her clothes because they were quote in the way yeah he said he had no sexual desire for he wasn't this wasn't about sexual this was just her clothes were in the way of getting it, you know, our body parts. Carving her up. Then he said he dragged her, Tammy, some distance into the woods and felt Tammy's ring cutting into his left hand. So he removed the ring and put it in his pocket. And that's how it ended up in his house. By the way, they ended up finding that in the ceiling of his house.

He put that in one of his ceiling tiles. Must have fallen out of his pocket. After his mom, after he said he was bringing it to the nickelodeon oh he put it up there he hid it in the in the ceiling tile of in his house keeping it forever yeah he was keeping it that was his fucking souvenir oh my god didn't just take it and throw it like you're skipping a stone out in the woods as far as it can go you dumb fuck he had to keep that that was his that was his thing uh yeah so he said he removed it put in his. He said that he attempted to bury her body in a shallow hole in the ground, but that the body wouldn't fit in the hole.

Yeah. You know, because it wasn't big enough. That's a lot of person. So normally, people in the mafia, they know you dig a bigger fucking hole. Right. You don't take parts off the person. No. You dig the hole bigger.

Right. Which is easier, do you think? Moving dirt or moving bones? Digging a slightly bigger hole or removing a human's head. I can't imagine. Which one would come to you first? I can't even think about how hard that would be. I mean, let's just say you were a grave digger and there's no coffins and your job is to

bury, like it was like the 1800s and they didn't have a lot of coffins around or something. And you dig a hole and you're like, oh shit, I guess I better start carving them up. Or would you be like, a little more hole. Hey Rocky, a little more hole. Jesus fucking Christ. Unbelievable. So he said that the body wouldn't fit. So he then amputated her head and the leg with his knife and placed those body parts

in a separate hole, you know, because, you know, they wouldn't fit. Right. So he dug another hole to put them in rather than just digging a bigger fucking hole where the body was so he's just saying that meanwhile he wanted to take parts off of people that's what he was into and he doesn't want to say i was just fascinated with taking a fucking leg off he feels the shame he knows that it's wrong yeah he knows that people look at him like this because his attorneys told him hey what you did is fucking beyond the fucking realm of monstrous yeah you need to make it not so bad do you understand that crazy doesn't describe how fucking crazy this is that crazy where it's not even crazy

anymore it's just sick it's in yeah it's sick sick is beyond crazy it's disgusting and it's it's animalistic behavior that has zero place in society no no no no you are never getting out of prison sir you realize that's fucking hope not just say it just own it because you're never getting out that's fucking insane so whatever just admit it here uh so then he says uh wow so uh he says he amputated the head and leg a pocket knife oh boy jesus christ so um he said that he buried those in a separate hole he then uh placed her clothes and holes in the ground. More holes, he's thinking. After burying all this, he said he returns home.

He said later on, on Friday morning, he found her purse in his car and burned the purse in the fireplace. So he then washed his car. Not very well, apparently. And then he said on Friday night, that night after he had helped look for the body with the relative look for tammy with the relatives and everything he decided to move the body since he'd been confronted and threatened by her relatives he's like oh it's too close to my house so later that night while his brother was watching tv and he was quote watching stars what he was really doing was retrieving her body parts loading them into the car and driving them to pennsy Pennsylvania to dispose of them in two separate locations is actually what he was fucking doing.

Yeah. He then, you know, he lied to the police, lied to the relatives, lied to his own mother. Yeah. And then at trial, too, he denied telling the police department that while they were seated in the car, he placed his hand on her leg and then it went further. He said that that never happened i never said that shit this was not sexual this was an accident and it was about anger because people can they're thinking what's what are what's going to be more sickening to the jury anger or

sexual fucking desire certainly sex definitely wanting to yeah exactly uh so he denied on the stand uh having any sexual intentions toward tammy but admitted wow this is bad admitted uh cutting out her vagina and rectum 30 to 45 minutes after he killed her so he took the rest of her apart and then was like i'll go in for that too jesus it was all over and then he's like you know what i'm missing this and then went in after that um he said he's unable to remember where he put any of these things um yeah that was uh he said he remembered everything else minute to minute but they said well where'd you put these organs that you cut out and he said i don't know oh the two dignity spots where'd you hide those don't know uh he also denied having any intention of stealing her

property but he admitted burying her clothes, taking the ring and burning her purse. But he said this wasn't like I wasn't trying to rob her. I was just trying to cover up my tracks. He admitted lying to his mother about the ring and then hiding the ring in the ceiling of his house. He also testified that he had no intention to kill or harm Tammy on the night in question. Just didn't happen. He said he said that he never struck Tammy with his fists or the blunt end of a knife, you know, regardless of what the pathologist says from the autopsy so as you can imagine if you're a jury and you're sitting here listening to this you pick your jaw up off the floor right and you immediately fucking convict this man of murder uh jurors do take uh nine hours over a two-day period before finally coming back with guilty of all fucking charges.

They're like, is there an extra guilty? Do we have that? Can I supersize the guilty? Possibly. We sat there for nine hours begging to make this worse. Can we have it guilty with some stank on it?

Is that an official legal terminology? There I could possibly have. Listen, Your Honor, we do not want to fill these out the way they're worded. Can we put as fuck at we put as fuck as fuck there's everything like that would be nice af is that fine can we just put pos in parentheses next to his name whenever it appears we want to do that though can we put in parentheses the worst before guilty yeah is that the worst guilty the worst kind of guilty right uh the judge come now the judge gets to sentence him well i mean the jury comes back to within the judge is the final

decision and uh as you might imagine you sir yeah may fuck off a death sentence by lethal injection good no one's real sad about this uh now while in prison he you know he's trying to tout himself because he's got appeals coming up he's trying to tout himself as mr model citizen i'm a college graduate i never did anything wrong in my life and then all of a sudden one night some accidental shit happens and it gets out of control uh but he has some problems in prison too in 1992 on may 6th he's found to be in possession in prison of a cardboard tube that could be used as a blow gun right away along with three darts fashioned out of toilet paper and bent staples right away right away he that's that's some like you've been in prison for a while you're making

darts out of toilet paper staples and fucking toilet paper tubes building blowguns that's crazy uh he spent 10 days in disciplinary control for that and may 28th of 92 which is three weeks later he received a conduct report for having a knife made out of a piece of antenna. He's found not guilty of that violation somehow. October 30th, 95, he receives a conduct report for talking too long on the phone after being warned

by staff. Then they did a shakedown. They go in the cells and everything and toss him. He was found with 12 packs of cigarettes and a game ticket. All illegal. His attitude was described by the thing and toss him he was found with 12 packs of cigarettes and a game ticket i'm sure all illegal yeah um his attitude was described by the uh this is great by the the people who you know make the reports as quote high and mighty and he's they also said he had a poor attitude high and mighty i'm better than you people not really no how many people here you think fucking i've ever taken a

head off of a body probably not many uh the contraband confiscated he received a disciplinary sentence here also later on when he's on death row he completes the octagon program where he became a literacy tutor well look at him trying to get clemency that's what this is uh he reports uh having tutored other inmates and helping them wherever he can he also reports performing community service whenever he's available, obviously. I don't care. He's a fine man. He's the food delivery guy for the death row.

He'll bring in your food. You want food from this guy? No. No. Fuck this guy. He also said he held a number of jobs within the prison system and longest being a tutor for over four years. And then he was also, like I said, cart attendant for death row.

So he appeals, obviously, because he's a death thing. Yeah. He says he appeals whether his statements to the police should have been suppressed, whether the prosecutors used to preemptory challenges to remove prospective jurors who expressed hesitation about the death penalty denied him a fair trial and whether the admission of cumulative and gruesome photographs denied him a fair trial and whether sufficient evidence supports his conviction for aggravated robbery okay i don't know you had a ring in your pocket and you killed the bitch that's what he's thinking i killed the bitch i got a ring in my pocket guess what motherfucker that's aggravated robbery you're going the fuck away you got a sorry

you got a ring in your pocket and a liver in your trunk it's too far that's in his mind i killed the bitch that's how i can think of i can fucking hear his mind saying that you know i'll take the ring what does she need it for that's what he was thinking so don't fucking say you didn't rob shit fuck you i don't care if it's a piece of paper eat dicks you burned her purse where's the money that's what you took that too i'm sure that's what i think that's why he said he stopped at the ATM, probably, to account for cash, maybe, if they searched him and he had cash on him. But even so, ATMs have a paper trail and a camera on them, all that shit. Absolutely.

But at the time, though, that'll get him out of that chair. You know what I mean? That'll explain right then what it is, and then later on I'll deal with that, because this guy isn't exactly thinking ahead. No. We'll put it that way. He also contends that he was denied his right against self-incrimination

and a fundamentally fair trial because the trial court failed to suppress statements he made during a police interview as the prime suspect when he wasn't given Miranda warnings. That's a good point. Yeah. But the rest of it is a lot. But he said it again.

You don't even need his confession. I'm sorry. You don't. The Supreme Court also concludes that factual circumstances did not indicate said it again you don't even need his confession i'm sorry you don't uh the the supreme court also concludes that factual circumstances did not indicate that he was in custody for miranda and uh for miranda purposes and they reject the claim on that one the district court held that the state's uh court's determination was not unreasonable uh he wasn't in custody it's all voluntary that's what it was they kept saying, you're free to leave anytime you want.

So if he's free to leave anytime he wants, they're saying that he's not a suspect regardless of what he's saying, because he's not his freedom of movement is not impinged is what they say. So I've been impinged upon. Because the court improperly admitted three photographs depicting Tammy's severed head, her severed head held near her torso, and a severed breast and her torso with the severed head and the severed breast replaced on the torso. He says that, quote, did not assist the jury in revealing the victim's cause of death, is what he's saying. The Supreme Court says, no, it's good, as they usually do. They reject the claim on the on there they say that the wounds depicted in the slides and photographs were uh you know they were contested issues of intent purpose motive cause that you needed to paint the picture for the jury the head was removed you need to see that although gruesome the photographic evidence of the victim's body and body parts was highly probative, and the value of the evidence

clearly outweighed the danger of unfair prejudice. Also, robbery says there's not sufficient evidence to say he robbed her, and the Supreme Court rejects that, explaining that an individual killed just prior to being robbed need not to be alive to be a victim of robbery. Correct.

He's saying, I didn't rob her and then kill her. I killed her and then robbed her. Oh, boy. So, obviously, it's not that. The appellant's intent to steal need not have preceded the murder for statutory purposes. You, sir, can keep on eating dicks and keep on waiting to get fucking injected.

They set his execution date for March 20th, 2007 at 10 a.m. Yeah. So, let's get it on. 10 a.m. March 16th, 2007 he goes in for clemency to the governor,

begging for clemency. He says he's become a religious person now, which that makes it all better then. I'm sure you're fine. Attending Catholic Mass and he's been working with an Eastern Orthodox priest. That's good for you. He can help you pray when we kill you. Let's see if it works.

Let's see if it works. Let him pray over your body after Andy beats the life out of it how about that can we have that that'd be great andy and the brother and the mother all get to fucking do what they want then you can call the priest in to give you last rights or andy had to sit through that fucking trial he had to be sitting there oh how many times did he go it's like point look yeah pointing throwing it throwing a flat hand at this guy what no so uh kenneth's family members appeared here and spoke on his behalf his mother joanne his sister karen his sister sherry and uh his brother curry uh i think that should be carry i think he's called carry and Curry in different court documents. I'm going to go with Kerry.

Probably. Since he is Kenneth, I'm going to go with Kenneth and Kerry, not Kenneth and Curry, like the spice, because that's how they have it spelled here. Like stuff. Yeah, exactly. They said all these family members expressed love for him. They said they love him. They don't want him to die.

They discussed the abusive nature of his alcoholic father and how it was negatively impacted their family. Also describes the work ethic of Kenneth, saying that, you know, he's a great guy. He's a hard worker. They appreciate the helpfulness. He always offered the family. He would give the money and help around the house. He'd help his mom. Sherry, her sister, his sister apologized to tammy's family

for their pain and suffering they asked for consideration so that kenneth's life would be spared and you commute him to life without parole the victim's family gets to talk to them yeah that's the problem for kenneth i hope andy just said that's your ass uh well we get i don't see him on here um i don't know what was going on by now but uh the opposition testimony this is 2007 so this is 16 years later we don't know if andy's around or fanny has decided that he he's putting that behind him so it's painful to go 17 year old boy at this that's what i mean he could have a son he could have moved on and got married had more kids and just said man that's painful and i can't revisit that or i don't know what it is but the

uh her sister was there, Debbie. Patricia, her mother-in-law, who is Andy's mom. So Andy's somewhat involved in this. And I don't know if Andy's still around. Something could happen to Andy. We don't know. I should have probably found that. But it would have been hard to find someone who's not a criminal.

That's the problem. It's hard to find people unless they're in jail. Also, I don't want to find him if he is a criminal. Because right now I'm rooting for him real hard. I fucking love Andy, man. Also, I don't want to find him if he is a criminal. No, I'm rooting for him. I love Andy, man. Also, the mother-in-law of her, of Tammy, Sharon King.

I'm sorry. That was that was Patricia Engstrom. And then Sharon King, her friend, the one that watched the baby there. They related that the family of Tammy has suffered greatly because of Kenneth. They report what a great family member Tammy was, a caring person who helped out whenever she could. They point to other relatives who've died before their time and in part because of the grief over the loss of tammy her father-in-law died of a heart attack at 59 oh yeah i forgot about this i didn't know tammy's husband andy died of a heart attack at 45 get the fuck out in the year 2005 leaving casey an orphan

on poor casey was only 15 years old and both his parents were gone jesus casey poor son of a bitch man oh my god poor guy i hope he is the ceo of twitter or some shit man i i'm telling you i feel bad for him damn it this is terrible you poor guy man our hearts go out to casey so sorry man fuck they further state that tammy never had an opportunity for clemency and that whatever pain and suffering lethal injection inflicts on Kenneth would not be as great as the suffering that Tammy felt. They feel that Kenneth is, quote, an evil sociopath who should no longer walk the face of the earth. It's hard to argue. And if that he's not executed, there is no justice.

Governor Strickland here. Now, well, he's got his lawyer. Kenneth's lawyer says it's easy to demonize a guy that's committed a crime. It's as terrible as the one Ken did. Yeah. Thank you, Captain Obvious. Thank you for making our point for you. It is easy.

Let's put him in the fucking chair. What are we talking about? It's easy to demonize a monster. It's easy. I get it. I mean, the devil's what? The devil? I mean, what are we going to?

It's easy to say space is big. I get that. But is it really that big? That's what he's basically saying. Fuck out of here. What a dickhead. Quote, it's very difficult to look past that mutilation, is what he said. But he also said that Kenneth was a, quote, relatively normal Ohio citizen before the crime.

Relatively normal. Hardworking, a college graduate. Quote, he said this with a straight face in front of her relatives quote he's a good decent person wow is that a good decent person is that what they do whoa uh governor strickland said get the fuck out of here can we get rocky to drag him as quickly as possible to the fucking death chamber fuck you he uh the he called the uh the crime quote inexcusably gruesome yeah and fuck yourself you're going to fucking the chair here uh however later on that day the united states supreme court uh uh upholds a court of appeals ruling that bureau's execution

should be stayed to allow him to argue his case that the Ohio lethal injection is cruel and unusual punishment. So we're going to get into that. That'll be very quick. Don't worry. He's transferred from Death Row to Youngstown in Youngstown to the Southern Ohio Correctional Facility in Lucasville in 2009, April 24th, the prosecutor requested an Ohio Supreme Court set an execution date after a federal judge decides on April 21st, 2009, that Ohio's method of execution is in fact flawed,

but not unconstitutional. It's pretty fucked up, but we should be able to kill this one. We can get him in, and then we'll worry about it. How's that? I think that's what he said. It's cruel and unusual to some people.

I mean, not to you, but you know. So they set a date for December 8th, 2009. For a guy whose conviction is questionable. Yeah, that's cruel and unusual. Yeah. But yours, I mean. I mean, it's not a constitution. You took a mom apart, you dickhead.

It's apples and oranges. So if this normally, just a quick quick breakdown because we've talked about it before it was a three drug system boom boom boom these drugs have become available because they're made in europe and they will not import them places where they're going to use them to kill people that's the fucking thing because they're not basically outside of syria china russia and here no one else executes people that's pretty much how it works everyone else just goes yeah we don't that's probably pointless so anyway he uh he is uh going to be he would be the first person to die of a single drug it's a single dose of a single drug the other one would be it was an anesthesia paralysis death this is just fucking all in one drano and it takes longer yahtzee so yeah it's one of those you

might as well just inject them with windex is basically what you're doing with some antifreeze basically what you're doing here uh so uh it's usually like i said three drug process the uh we could do that we could do a three drug process windex drano uh antifreeze yeah we do it like that's fine with this guy just with him i don't care watch it like i said get him out of the way then we'll worry about it after that. So lethal injection experts on both sides, even the people that are pro this, they say that it's a theopentyl sodium that kills people by putting people so deeply asleep that they stop breathing.

Right. But it will take longer to do. It takes longer. So the anesthesiologist who advised Ohio on its switch to the single drug had written that the death should occur in, quote, under 15 is a fucking long time that's bad right that's not great we can't do that we can't fucking do that beating their feet until they die it just looks terrible that's just that's not good 15 minutes it typically takes about seven minutes to die on the three system deal so uh you know it's it's a while here it takes four if you

strangle somebody yeah now they're talking about this now her uh tom heiss who is tammy's sister he says that it's time to put kenneth to death he says quote i'm happy it's going forward it's just time it's time for our family to have a little justice here uh so i could see them thinking that also the prosecutor said quote there shouldn't be any more obstruction on this one uh the her sister tammy sister said quote it has destroyed me it hurts it hurts a lot and uh uh she also said uh we really need to this to be brought to justice after 17 years this time we know it's going to be done tammy needs to rest in peace december 8th 2009 execution day yeah yeah uh his execution is originally scheduled for 10 a.m but they push it we know it's going to be done. Tammy needs to rest in peace. December 8th, 2009, Execution Day.

His execution's originally scheduled for 10 a.m., but they push it back to 11. It's a little Hollywood. We're going to push it back a little. Everyone's not here. We're going to push it back. Is that alright? We're trying to get everybody seated. There's still seven people at the bar. There's still people at the

bar. So on the last night and that morning, the last night and was you know that morning the night before in that morning kenneth biros drinks a lot of water drank 12 cups of water uh hoping that he was hydrated so the executioners could access his veins better oh that's what he was trying to do uh final meal yeah last meal jimmy it's been a while he gets it's not at least it's not something good cheese pizza onion good? Cheese pizza, onion rings, fried mushrooms, chips with French onion dip, cherry pie, blueberry ice cream, and a Dr. Pepper. None of that goes together.

None of it goes. It's just I like this stuff. Right. Put it in a big thing. Why do that? I don't get it. I mean, you put the chips on the pizza. I'm not sure.

If you're going to do like a steak and lobster with some vegetables. Some shit that goes not just a not just like a hodgepodge random hodgepodge of crap bizarre yeah i don't just like having a vending machine of hot food just whatever you got no put it on the plate it's not a dinner uh they bring him in for his last words are quote i'm sorry from the bottom of my heart i want to thank all my family and friends for my prayers and who have supported and believed in me my father now i'm being my not my father like talking about my father my father like god now i'm being paroled to heaven is what he said okay i will now spend all of my holidays with my lord and savior jesus christ well he's got christmas with jesus so it's fine peace be with

you all amen that's what he said i feel like that someone should have said because her brother want to come and just punch him in the face before we start just come up and just fucking drill him once because the fucking asshole he's clearly aiming at anybody that's religious in the room and trying for soft spots right and for just i'm going to be pious about it and that's that's what it is fuck you man a white scarf was laid next to him at his request apparently a symbol of buddhism from buddhism uh one of the faiths that he observed he's into multiple faiths oh he also had two small eastern orthodox religious pictures lying on his chest uh tucked inside uh the strap that holds him down to the table the fuck is this make him i don't know what he's

fucking doing making himself a martyr? The execution team struggled to put shunts in his arms to inject the drugs. He grimaced and it took about 30 minutes of pricking him at least a half dozen times to find a usable vein. So he must know his veins suck or something. Yeah, the attorney for

Burroughs who witnessed the execution says he counted nine attempts to find a usable vein. Wow. burros who witnessed the execution says he counted nine attempts to find a usable vein wow he's oh that's a lot that's fucking up man jesus christ that's brutal i hate that this happens guy on the first day can we get somebody who knows how to inject people you know when this happens to like people that they're convicted junkie they would have found pull a fucking go out in front of the courthouse find the first fucking junkie you see walking by he knows how to find and think his veins are good nobody finds him bring him in there no problem there you go and he's out 10 seconds fucking gone but sorry about that i mean interrupt you but jesus christ it's just when you when there's somebody

whose conviction is questionable you feel bad when they like go over and over and again and can't find a vein and then the people they have to take them out uh back to their cell because they can't and then you go you know what give that guy clemency give him a pass yeah he just beat death life without but this guy keeps stabbing him that way i don't give a shit that's what i mean stab him so many times that he bleeds to death out of tiny little holes like in a cartoon where he drinks a glass of water and it all shoots out of everyone that's what i want for this fucking guy jesus christ so nine attempts and his attorney does say quote once the drug started flowing i think it went well but very much have concerns with the iv

access now um the uh the uh the prosecutor or one of the prison officials uh said that it's ridiculous to say that anything went wrong finding a vein he said people who like to put time limits on my team it's not an acceptable practice i see no problem in any form or fashion with what my team did today we fucking killed a guy god damn it is he fucking dead? Mission accomplished. It's like, I mean, right? Look at him. I hope that team of doctors, before they go in there, they go, all right, guys, let's go kill it. Let's go kill it. We're killing it.

So right when he's pronounced dead, Tammy's family bursts into applause. Oh, wow. dead uh tammy's family bursts into applause oh wow and uh debbie her sister says uh uh the moments were drawn for the coroner to you know do his thing they drew the curtains back again debbie said quote rock on that was too easy rock on that was too easy that's the gal that's time in a midwest giving her some horns good for you dad you have a right to you in a Midwest bar. Giving her some horns. Good for you, Dad. You have a right to. You have a fucking. By the way, her name is D-E-B-I. So they named T-A-M-I D-E-B-I. They like the I thing in that family. It was raised in a bar.

Yeah. I like her. That's what the mother works. Yeah. That's what I mean. Now, Beeros is the first person executed by that lethal injection with a single drug in the United States. He is in the Guinness Book of World Records.

What? injection with a single drug in the united states he is in the guinness book of world records actually setting a guinness world record for being the first person executed with a with the use of a single drug congratulations dick weed guinness world record fuck you asshole kenneth biros is dead watch the dwarves dance around i don't know ding dong the dick is dead i feel so bad for andy lost the love of his life and then died at 45 yeah and you know that has to be part of it absolutely i mean i don't know what his diet was like or shit but i mean that that that had to take that kind of tragedy forces you to live a life of of heartbreak yeah and also having a one-year-old son yeah and having your wife killed and all that that would take 20 years off of your life just in your just right now just off of you're not living past 60 anyway you're not

going to look the same no when that's over six months later you're going to look like you're 33 if you're 22 at that point because it's just horrible and horrific and uh that's our show that is kenneth biros and poor tammy angstrom and. And that is Brookfield Township, Ohio. If you like that show, please, please let us know about it. Tell us about it. Get on iTunes. That purple icon. Fucking podcast app.

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and we'll do that in the future. Also, head to shut up and give me murder dot com, where you can get all of your small town murder and crime and sports needs. And please listen to crime and sports. If you're not, I don't know what you're doing. Good God, you're going to like it. If you like this, you will like that. It's just us talking shit.

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there. And also May 13th and 14th, San Francisco, both at Cobb's Comedy Theater. And that is a two late night shows. Friday and that is two late-night shows, a Friday and Saturday night late-night. Come hang with us. Great club. Going to be real fun at night.

Come down there, hang out, get some drinks and shit beforehand, go out to dinner, do that, go out, party afterwards. Let's party. Let's do that, and then later on in that month we'll be in Detroit and Cincinnati and then everything else for the rest of the tour, but we won't worry about that right now.

Check all those out. But if you are, one thing I will say, Portland, that second show is selling really fast. Get your tickets because it's almost gone. You better figure that out. And yeah, Seattle, there's only a few tickets left, I know. And they're like singles. I don't even know if they have pairs left.

So get on that right now. Get those tickets there. If you want to be, oh, also follow us on social media. Damn it. Follow us on social media damn it follow us on social media you can do that on twitter at murder small on facebook at small town pod and on instagram at small town murder follow us there so you can get all the newest updates on things first of all we have you know when new products come out or stuff like that but also we have like when we

release new tour dates because there's a couple they're still working on in here so if there's a new tour date or if a sold-out show has you know they found 20 tickets that they were holding as comps or something that they decide to release we say that on social media and those people know it first so don't wait till you hear it on the show uh do that and follow us there if you want to be a hero of ours like we've talked about these people are our heroes we say they're our producers we don't say that to be full of shit. They are our producers. They're the people we look at as the driving force of the show. And we cannot thank them enough.

If you want to be one of our producers who we're going to talk about and gush about in just a minute here, you can do that so easily by going to patreon.com slash crime and sports. Or you can just head over to PayPal and use use our email address which is crime in sports at gmail.com and you can do that and jimmy i can't wait any longer i can't i need to after that episode with all that you know that research all about the this is a lot it was just a it's a lot to read over and over again and experience so i need to hear good things now tell me about the best people in the world hit me with it jim. This week's executive producers are Megan Campbell, Jay McFarland, John Jackson, Ellie Kamek. She's from Dallas, and we didn't get to see her when we were down there, and it bummed

me out. Maybe next time. Miss you, Ellie. Carrie Gines, or Gines. It's probably Gines, right? Yeah. It's not Gines. None of his last names is Gines.

I hope not. Tanya Volanek, Nancy Graham, Jordan Bennett. Sorry. Thank you, is what we were meaning to say. Amanda Rutherford, Aaron Cox, and Brittany Helm. Thank you guys so much. You don't know what you do for us. You guys are the best, honestly.

You got me to urgent care this week, and I fucking... Jimmy's sick. He's sipping tea over here. He's a disaster. I'm a mess. Our other producers this week are Laura Edwards, Alejandra Flores, Michael Kogut, Crystal Weiss-Omrichik, Kelsey Lynn Lewis, Glenn Ely, Jamie Martin-Schnell. I don't know if she's related to Steve. Possibly.

Either way, we like Steve, so hopefully. Boston Van Landingham-Gore, Lucy Stacy, Jen Wallace, Wagon, no, Waffletosis. we like steve so hopefully uh boston van landingham gore uh lucy stacy jen wallace wagon no waffle ptosis i don't that's not somebody's name i'm sure that's not a disease it's it's like a it's like a joke rap name yeah or it's a joke about when like the the things you know what i mean uh waffle itis yeah like blue waffle.com is a gross thing that people oh i'm sure it has something whatever uh nicola mastrantonio uh zach with no last name tabitha no last name kelsey bradley uh jill fry katie garotte or garotte uh jacrispy smith probably not uh maybe who knows jacrispy i like that uh chelsea lanae morgan rachel. Rachel San Marco. Brendan Stratton. Colleen Christian.

Chow Mein Jane. I hope that's a restaurant. That's awesome. Connor Stein. Sarah Gray. Christian Manguia. Shelby Atkins. Christine Cordoza.

Ryan Wallum. Alan with no last name. Heather Wellnitz. Lindsay Newton. Josh Buchanan. Kim Layer. Jordan Martin. Laura Michich.

Lisa Dawkins. I think that's Dawkins. Pretty sure. Mary Greats, James Hansen, Courtney Yearout, Candice French, Wallace Schneider, Rachel Dean, Connor Storley, Kyle Tehan, Amanda Rutherford. I think I said that up top. No, that was Megan. No, it was Amanda.

Damn it. She donated both ways. I'm sorry. Kelly Walsh, Kyle King. Kyle King. Sarah Anderson. Corin Jones. Steph the Green, I think. Leslie Todd. Lindsay Kay.

Sarah Chulsky. Yes. Joanna James. John Ellis. Sam Harvey. Brooke Reeves. Faith McBoy. Ann Jones.

Marty Zero. Michael Lapham. Tracy Jacobs. Brian., Madeline Holliman, Brandon Ayers, Brenda Moreno, Keith Christie, Nikki Maione, Marian Moss, Jeremy Ebert, Marion Moss, that's her name, Jeremy Ebert, Allison Morrison, Amy Schultz, Drip Dry, probably not, Rachel Trusinski, Cherie Velez, that's one of my favorite last names. That's a good one. Nancy Thompson, Laura Looney, Amy Schultz, did I say that?

I did. Tanner Ireland, Mary Schneider, I think I already said that. God damn it, what am I doing? Seth Parker, Logan Francis, Michelle Fournier, Jason Lunsford. Oh, my that. God damn it. What am I doing? Seth Parker, Logan Francis, Michelle Fournier, Jason Lunsford. Oh, my throat. God damn it. This is brutal, man. I'm telling you.

We love you guys. We have to. Caitlin Terwilliger. She lives in Herndon from the episode. Yeah. Kaipon. Kaipon Visp. Jeff Rash.

And he is everybody or everyone is an expert pod. Dale Asburn, Ethan Williams, Avriel Pitch, Alexandria Frazier, Tracy Henson, Cindy Sidney, Sidney Barnhart, Steve Chanel. There he is. Ashley Veo. Janice Hill again. Thank you. Daniel Kajesarud, I think. Kimberly with no last name. John Heron and chrissy at thunderbird and indie i think that's true uh jessica christensen uh and her daughter joey and then her husband i forgot his her husband's last name but they came to the

show in uh i forget where god damn it and i have a letter from joey for you uh i forget where they're at but they're wonderful people uh rosa lu, Jackie Sukup, Jordan Bish White. I think that Bush White. God damn it. Patrick Keller, Caleb Laughlin, Jude Kendall, Kelsey Graves, Jennifer Flores, Talena Jensen. Talena Jensen. Adam Udaini, Brittany Dace or Dacey, Bo Bradley, Debbie Chapman, Krista Walker, James Asselta, or daisy beau bradley uh debbie chapman crystal walker james aselta thomas smith alice daly uh stephen rude uh angelina heaver kindred smith robin anderson tara o'neill joanna ahern uh stephy

no steppy seppy seppy montero i think montardo montardo i think that's right reagan shulkley uh suzanna platt rebecca filagi the full it's an italian one full laggy filiati i don't know how you should know just from my stupid pronunciation from your eight different pronunciations i should know how to spell it liz vasquez uh jesse hartman jenny hort or mort uh claire havey courtney uh chenier chenier uh james jamie houseman, Maggie O'Neill, Kelly Higby, Caleb Farley went to Chad Curtis Diddle High. He went to that high school. Todd Purley, Lauren Demerath, James Marder, Peyton Meadows, and all of our Patreon supporters.

You guys really change our lives and make this all worth it. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for everything. Yeah. Honestly, we just appreciate the hell out of it, and we can it thank you thank you guys so much for everything yeah honestly we just appreciate the hell out of it and uh we can't thank you enough thank you so so much for all that you do for us jimmy what if they wanted to well they could thank you they could say they hate you they could say they love you what if they wanted to just get a hold of you how could whatever words

you got there and uh go to no i was gonna give our website our website go to shut up and give me murder that's fine it's fine at wisman sucks whisman sucks on twitter and instagram and snapchat if they want to find you james it's fucking difficult you can find me you've gone ahead and taken uh one of the most difficult names ever to yeah to chase fame with what is it it's well that's why on twitter it's at jimmy p is funny so we'll make it easy for everybody uh or you can just copy and paste my name from the show description because it is a horrible name to spell and a really stupid name to go into showbiz with. But I'm an idiot, so this is what I've chosen to do.

Definitely do that. Send me whatever you want. Say hello. We're all very happy. Show ideas, though, please send those to the CrimeAndSports at gmail.com because I'll lose them otherwise. They need to be collected from there. With that said, everybody, we cannot wait to keep coming back each and every week.

We just signed a new two-year deal with our network, so we have no choice but to be here every single week. You are stuck with us again and again and again. Until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye! Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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