Small Town Murder - #155 - Two Bodies & One Big Coincidence in Raeford, North Carolina

Episode Date: January 23, 2020

This week, in Raeford, North Carolina, a family in crisis is the perfect prey for a predator, who moves in, and disrupts any potential harmony. When a 15 year old girl goes missing, she is considered a runaway, but when a close family member also disappears, it seems like a bigger picture is forming. It all ends in a courtroom showdown with the death penalty in the balance. There's a lot of crazy in this one!! Along the way, we find out that turkey cooking is very competitive, that anyone who owns a nightclub is probably a dirtbag, and that when two bodies are buried in your yard... you are more than likely a murderer!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Rayford, North Carolina, police don't know where to look when a young woman disappears, but once a family member disappears as well, they begin to see the big picture. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us again on another crazy rollercoaster adventure that we like to call Small Town Murder. It's a lot of fun. We have a wild story again this week.

They never stop, obviously. Last week was insane, too. We've just been on a real roll of crazy shows for about 154 of them so far. So we're going to continue that this week. Quickly, though, just want to get some house cleaning out of the way. First of all, thank you guys for your reviews this week. Apple podcast, that purple icon. We have no idea why they count we don't know but for some reason those reviews give us five stars we don't know why it doesn't matter what you say you have to say something in there say it's dark in here and i'm getting scared so i'm gonna make

this review so they'll let me out we're okay with that so fix this fix this we don't mind it's fine do that thank you It really does help drive you up the charts. It's a big deal. We have no idea why, but thank you. Also, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com

for everything small town murder and crime and sports. First of all, if you're not listening to crime and sports, you're just missing out. Investigation Discovery listens.

They listen to it. We were on there. Absolutely. We're on the Aaron Hernandez special that they have going on right now. Listen to it. It's on there. Absolutely. We're on the Aaron Hernandez special that they have going on right now. Listen to it. It's all mayhem and insanity and comedy and jokes.

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doing for us we really do appreciate it and if you want to be even more appreciated you can do that it is possible very possible you could be one of our producers. So we talk about in glowing, gleeful, happy terms at the end of the show. We do that. And you do that very easily by going to patreon.com slash crime and sports or heading over to PayPal and using our email address, crime and sports at gmail.com. Right. And thank you for everything you do for us. With that said, the disclaimer, it's time.

Have to do it. It's a comedy show. It is. It's a comedy show. We want this to be funny. Right. That's the point. We're comedians. It's a comedy show. It is. This is a comedy show. We want this to be funny. That's the point. We're comedians. That's what we do.

All the facts are real. Everything like that is real. Nothing's made up to make it funnier or anything like that. We're not trying to do that. There's enough craziness in the world. You don't have to make up a thing. That's what's beautiful. I mean, it's both sad and beautiful at the same time because there's so much crazy.

There's so much to make fun of that you don't have to. And we go out of our way not to make fun of the victim or the victim's family why would we do that because we're assholes but we're not scumbags now you know that's how it works that's our whole theory here and that's why we think the show is uh is okay that's why when there's murder it's okay to make jokes at other stuff you don don't say, oh my, that's hilarious. Someone's head got cut off. We never say that. That's not it. But around it, six months earlier, when the two people involved got in a fist fight in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot,

and both got tased. That's funny. I'm sorry. That's hilarious. And we're going to talk about that kind of stuff. And that's what we mean. So if you don't think true crime and comedy should ever go together,

then you shouldn't listen to the show. Right. If you don't, I don't want to ever hear a joke because there's murder. I don't feel right about it. Then go, please. Don't, don't, don't be here. It's a bad first date. Yeah.

Thanks for trying. Have a good one. Good luck in the future. Yeah. Don't complain later. I don't like your hair. You don't like that. I don't have it.

That's all it is. So for the rest of you, though, I want to have a good time with a crazy story today. I think it's time to sit back, relax, let the lungs loose, and shout, Shut up and give me murder! Let's do this, Jimmy. Great! Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's get out of here.

Let's go from Oklahoma, we were in the middle of the country last week in craziness. Now we're going to go all the way over to North Carolina. We're going to go over to the east. We haven't been in North Carolina in a while. It's been a while it's been a year actually so uh let's do it rayford north carolina r-a-e-f-o-r-d oh that is rayford if they come up with some weird other alternate local pronunciation i don't know yeah that's nope it's rayford everybody there you go uh it's in south central north carolina pretty much right in the middle down south a little bit. It's about an hour and a half to Raleigh, to that area of the capital, about two hours to Charlotte. It's kind of down by itself here.

It's actually about 20 minutes from Red Springs, which is our last town that we did, which was episode 102. Oh, Jesus. It was a long time ago, over a year ago. A third of these. Yeah, over a year ago. So this is in Hoke County, H-O-K-E County, 4.3 square miles here. It's a smallish town kind of in the middle of nowhere. And we'll talk about this.

This town, there's a lot of edge to this town. Put it that way. There's a lot of kind of estuary between the town and rural middle of nowhere. There's a prison hospital in this area. It's not far from the prison. Well, the town, it's kind of in the town area. How far from the prison? It's kind of in the town but it's on the outskirts. I don't put it like downtown. It's not like, oh, there's the elementary

school, the prison hospital, and the barber shop is next door. And there's a great breakfast place across the street. You can't miss that. It's on the outskirts. They need room for fences and shit. If you find the place where somebody is screaming, the numbing is not working, you found the right area. That's the one.

It's right there. Enjoy. Run from that area. More Novocaine. That's the area. There's razor wire up for a reason. That's where the best breakfast is. Oh, you know it.

So the motto here, it's one of these mottos where it seems like they just clicked a motto generator. They're like, I want to work. That's fine. Quote, where quality living meets quality life, which also doesn't make a lot of sense, to be honest with you. Quality living makes a quality life? Meets quality life. Oh, meets.

Oh, it meets it. It meets it. I mean, if you've got a quality life, you've got quality living, right? This is one of those where they popped out and they said, yeah, that sounds good, but they didn't actually think about it. Right. Because the alternate motto, I feel like that explains a lot. Their alternate motto is, quote, what the hell does our motto mean?

What the fuck does that mean? It's a lot of, yeah, it's a different thing, I would say. There are confused people here in this town. Now, Jesus Christ. Quality living. Quality living. Now, Rayford originally originally a little history a little backstory on this town was settled on the site of what was just an old cotton field

so it's yeah this is a you know it's a rural area and uh it didn't really get populated as far as a town until the late 1800s so it's for the south that's kind of late you know this is not this wasn't like oh it didn't burn during the civil war or anything like that it was just uh just a common field just the middle of nowhere yeah so uh in 18 uh in uh there was basically a few families there that kind of was the whole population in 1898 just a bunch of family yeah and then in 1899 they extended the railroad there the aberdeen and rockfish, and then that made a town. Railroads could just make and break towns. They had so much power in this country back in the day.

They had all the power. Wherever they felt like going was where there would be towns. That's why the guy that ran the railroad was always a villain in the movies. Well, yeah, because that's the thing. If he decided not to put the, either not put it near your town, or if he decided instead to put it right through your town, you were screwed. That was it. Yeah. Rock Ridge is going to fall.

That's the plot of Blazing Saddles. You know what I'm saying? So they're going to go right through Rock Ridge here and wipe them out, get them to abandon the town. It's fascinating. Yeah. And if they said, no, screw you, we're going to put the railroad over here, then your town would die.

And it was basically the most technologically advanced thing on land at the time, too. It was the only way to get shit from A to B. What were you going to put the railroad over here. Then your town would die. And it was basically the most technologically advanced thing on land at the time. It was the only way to get shit from A to B. What were you going to do? Put it in a cart? It's the only thing that moved, really. Yeah, it was the only thing that moved quickly enough for things to not spoil. Also, if you had big things, let's say you made something large, how many horses are going to pull that across the country?

But if you want a bunch of horses somewhere fast, just put them on railroad cars. That's the thing, exactly. So that was the deal there. The railroad was the king of this country at this point in time. So when the first train came down there, teachers let the children from the school walk through the woods to meet the train.

Like, oh, let's go to a field trip. Literally a field trip through the woods. To go see it? To go see the train come through. Yeah, because a train now there it is there it is and the kids little kids were like holy shit look at it there's steam coming out it's making noises see it you can hear it in the middle of the fucking night a couple of filthy guys shoveling coal that's that's hysterical too the grossness of the people that worked on them all the time. Every job was disgusting. Awful.

In the late 1800s. Absolutely awful. Even if you were an attorney, I feel like at the end of the day. Yeah, you're covered in sweat. You're covered in grease and horse shit and sweat when you came home and mud. And there's just free pavement. How'd you get all that grease on? I hugged my client.

I shook his hand and somehow it transferred to the rest of me. That's why it's on my face. Grease jumped off of him onto me. I don't know how that happened. That's how it was back then. Everyone was filthy. There was no clean anything. If you wanted to be a clean person, you would have to be obsessed with your laundry obsessed to the

people like me and you didn't exist no the germaphobe wiping down shit oh god you'd be wiping all day all you could never get it no there was no pavement no either dust or mud that's all there was everywhere watch deadwood yeah everything's either dusty or muddy depending on the weather that's it tombstoneit, all my favorite movies. Dusty, dusty, dusty. Yeah. Dusty, muddy. Have you ever gone, ridiculous question.

I was going to ask you if you've gone camping. You've gone camping before, but not recently. I haven't gone camping. You've never in your life been camping? No, we went out when I was a teenager. We went out in the woods and smoked weed all night and stuff. That's not camping. That's not camping.

We lit a fire. Your dad never took you to go, no. I'm Italian. I don't camp. I'm a guinea from New York. Hey, we're going to load up the tent this weekend. I went fishing and stuff, but we'd go home at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. We're going to fucking sleep out there like animals.

I'm not going to sleep out there like the Wismans. What the fuck are we doing? It's a hobo fantasy camp. What am I fucking doing? We did it. We have a place. We It's a hobo fantasy camp. What am I fucking doing? We did it. We have a place. We did it a lot. Why?

I've camped before a lot and slept overnight out in the woods and shit. And then you go home, I don't know, two days later. You go out Friday, you come home Sunday, whatever. I don't remember being as fucking filthy as we were. Oh, God, you have to be. I've taken my kids out shooting or taking them out in the Jeep or whatever, going out in the woods. We come home and I'm like,

everybody get the fuck away from me. I'm getting in the shower and I'll be in there for the next hour. It's Silkwood time. We're going. It's what it is. Everybody stay the fuck away. I'm going to pour,

I'm probably going to pour an entire bottle of body wash all over me. I am filthy. Yeah, right away the fact that you said I'm going to pour body wash on me tells me you wouldn't have done well in the 1800s.

When I was a kid I would have done fine. Today, no. Where's the general stores? Just keep body wash stuffed up or what? What aisle is the body wash on? I'm looking for like a lavender.

Is that a, you have something in that kind of thing? Yeah, I think with the pearl balls in it. He then spits tobacco juice on your shoe calls you down his shirt calls you a gay slur of some kind whatever the colloquialism for the time was yeah i don't know probably probably just something that we know yeah yeah that's it would probably something what do you queer it would be that but it would

probably be something like more proper though you know what i mean cocksucker no no it would probably be like you know like a bottom tickler or something it'd be something very like he's a bottom tickler that one and they elbow each other in there you know something like that something very specific on the nose but uh a little a little less a little vile well back then they didn't really have the language like on deadwood that's not the real language that they used back then they just used the modern day equivalent because if they use the words that they actually used in the 1870s nobody would understand no not even that it wouldn't sound like that was a like a dirty person saying it because that's not dirty now but it was filthy

then so you have to they had to equate. Okay, cocksucker equals that, I guess. And that's how they do it. You crawfish. And yeah, it doesn't sound right. Exactly. It just doesn't sound right. Tombstone.

Some of it was a little bit confusing because crawfish on a bet. Yeah. Does that even mean? Yeah. And then I got to go to Google and work that shit. Well, they call him a welching cocksucker in Deadwood. You know what I mean? And stab him in the throat.

Pin him up against a support beam of the bar while they did it. And they cursed me for a liar. And that's a terrible thing. Then tell a prostitute to go get the sled so we can take it to the guy with the pigs, Mr. Woo. And then he'll eat all the people. Watch Deadwood. Jesus Christ. Listen to this.

This is all stuff you're into. So John McRae and A.A. Williford. You know you're rich when you don't even have a first name, when you're just initials. J.W. Fields or some shit. Yeah. T.C. something. You should just go. I understand why you don't, but you should go by just J.E. Wissman.

It's a tough one. It's a tough one. But still, go buy it. It makes people think you're wealthy, even though you're not. Is your middle name Allen? No. What is it? What is it?

Philip, not Allen. Oh, close. What, really? Like, that's a long stretch from Allen to Philip? It is. I named after my grandfather, who was actually Felice, but they... My Christ. Felice?

F-E-L-I-C-E. Wow. So they call him phil so they americanized it because they didn't want me to be you know that's a cool name though yeah felice is pretty bad it's pretty good sounds tough yeah it's not bad so you're james felice yeah basically you're jp petrogallo that's fucking great there you go see i sound wealthy that's fantastic you have a totally different view of me now don't you everybody listening you're like oh wow he's jp over here fucking great there you go see i sound wealthy that's fantastic you have a totally different view of me now don't you everybody listening you're like oh wow he's jp over here hold on wait jp's talking hold on a second wait i want to listen because he sounds serious now i didn't

want to listen to james but jp petrogallo sounds like he's got something in the he's got one in the chamber everybody let's take a peek he's gonna bring that railroad through here and be mayor so these two mccray and williford double Williford, operated a turpentine distillery and a general store. Okay. We're making that turpentine. Oh, yeah. Wow, okay. McRae had a turpentine distillery.

Williford had the general store. That's how they washed things, was with turpentine. Oh, yeah. That's how you had to wash it. There was no wet wipes. Everyone smelled great. Yeah. Everything smelled flammable.

I'd be dirty, too i if my bath was uh watered down turpentine there you go take your skin off jesus christ nobody had eczema back then i have psoriasis or anything like that my skin's a little sensitive do you have do you have a body lotion no we have turpentine here you go burn it right the fuck off how about bleach then if you don't want that and we have a metal brush that you you go. Burn it right the fuck off. How about bleach, then, if you don't want the... And we have a metal brush that you can use. What are you, a bottom tickler? Here's some bleach.

There you go. And a wire brush to scrub with. That'll tickle your bottom there, fella. Now, they took the Ray and the Ford from their two names, and that's when they came up with the name Rayford for the post office that they established there uh the mccray family who uh kind of lived down by the creek here was uh was made up of they were all scottish people these people all highland scots families here uh now the the uh a lot of this area here in the cave what they call uh is the cape here valley over here for some reason i guess it's the i don't know why they call the Cape Fear Valley over here for some reason. I guess it's the, I don't know why they call it that.

But anyway, it was the largest settlement of Gaelic-speaking Highland Scots in North America or in this region. And now there's a lot of them still. They've now turned into hillbillies, obviously, which is, it's the Oakey phenomenon. It's that thing. Well, basically, people who can't... Okay, how do we put this? Okay, the stock...

Jimmy, let's talk about your stock that you come from, okay? And I would throw myself in there, but we didn't get here much later. But the white trash stock comes from... A lot of it is from people who had a real shit time in England and were marginally on the edges of society and it would be like well you can either be imprisoned here or we can you can go to the new land right and have a period of servitude and then you can be free so that's what they would do they would come over here rather than be in prison and they'd work on farms and shit like that and

then eventually that would be you know know, they'd have freedom. And then, yeah, they had nothing also at the same time. And then they turned into criminals. Turned into Jimmy Wissman. Right. Is the lineage there. All of us. Yeah.

So that's kind of how this happened here. That's how you get. Fascinating. Yeah. That's how you get Scottish hillbillies. Yeah. Eventually they become hillbillies. That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. It's a weird. Who was that? Nelson Algren wrote a book about that. It was. God damn it. goddish hillbillies yeah eventually they become hillbillies whoever a lot of sense yeah it's it's a weird uh who was that nelson algren wrote a book about that it was uh god damn it that's why hillbillies are quote-unquote outlaws you know what i mean like on the fridge of society yeah australians are crazy yeah there's a reason for that that's what i'm saying that's what crazy that's what it was down there too it's the same thing all right yeah that's that's what it was populated by people who's only yeah people all they had to offer was labor yeah you know what i mean i got a hammer and i'm really good they had that to offer at the time so they

cross me i'll take all your shit with this hammer that's right so uh the the hoke county was formed in 1911 they put a couple of pieces of other counties together and named it for robert f hoke who was a confederate general in the civil war and uh since world war ii there's been a lot of uh lumbee indian families that moved uh moved into this area actually and uh so there's been a few more there's more native americans and then uh then all other places in this region i imagine there's thousands of tribes that's one i've never heard of lumbee never heard of them ever oh okay um there's also they have uh nowadays the the the employment here is uh there's just a list of things and i think it's just on wikipedia no this is on their historical site and it's now unilever burlington industries not the coat factory

the house of rayford inc tar heel turkey hatchery hell yeah hoke rubber products are industrial firms and they said quote other business and professional firms provide the bulk of non-farm employment okay so not they have to talk about non-farm employment unilever is the soaps right i think so i think so i don't know though i found reviews here and uh here's some reviews which are always wonderful i found one decent place to live if you're looking for an inexpensive housing close to fort bragg which it is so you can commutable uh we cannot say that this is a safe area but there's really nothing in the fayetteville vicinity that i would deem safe neighbors are primarily trashy and the county slash town does

not do an amazing job of keeping the area presentable school system is a joke and i would never dream of sending my children to daycares in this area i like two stars yeah yeah i like this place next one are both from a guy named mike okay two reviews from mike okay the same guy i love when they come back for more hold on i forgot something i love that so much uh first one is uh mike in quotes quote crime is bad and false allegations are worse with corrupt public officials. Typical small town North Carolina. What were you accused of, Mike? Mike's had problems. I feel like he's run the system a little.

And then Mike's second review. Beware of this backwards town. If you get accused of anything and you are an out of town or they will lynch you until you are broke. Beware of this backwards small north carolina town they will also step right uh they will also step on the right of the poor beware of west fayetteville towing they are crooks and dopehead and dopeheads scott family that's his thing so he got towed yeah he it sounds like he got a dui or something like that and he got his car towed and then it was an impound fee was a lot and it's expensive. And he is comparing that to being lynched.

Which is not the same. Literally fucking murdered. They towed his car and he's upset about it. What an asshole. Come on, Mike. Fuck you, Mike. I love when people

take their beefs to Sperling's Best Places website to talk about township. So good. So, yeah, the population of this town is about 4,859 people. Not about, that's exactly how many. 4,859 people not about that's exactly how

many 4,859 people up 40 since 1990 as north carolina has been inundated with northerners it's just and that that uh that pushes a lot of them away from the cities and more out it's trust me my dad moved down to raleigh in the 90s and property values spike it's yeah the whole thing got changed it changed the entire place yeah it just made it for more of a rural kind of a small city to this different kind of place now a lot of the uh age here is average average age of median age but there's a lot of kids and a lot of elderly people a lot of over 85 year old people i just picture them on a porch somewhere very sipping lemonade i feel like yeah rock and Very sipping lemonade. Rock and share. Yeah, rock and share, sipping lemonade.

They bought it at that goddamn Cracker Barrel. Yes, yes. Less married people here, more divorced people, more single with no children, more single with children, more single. But also, too, you have Army base nearby, so you're going to get that there, too. Race of this town. This is different for small town murder. 39% white, 44 black yeah that's one of the few we've had that's more black than white uh 1.5 asian 3.4 native american which is

way over the national average and uh about 10 hispanic so it's a it's a mix it's got a town's got a mix it's got diversity it's not like our normal kind of homogenous town here north carolina is uh uh heavily populated with african-americans i dig that that's very cool i've been to raleigh when my dad lived there yeah oh it's great but it's also completely segregated yeah that's a good point totally segregated i mean there's families that live here and families that live there but like it's pretty obvious if there's a barber shop and that's a black barber shop you don't really go in there if you're white and if it's a white barber shop certain barbers you't really go in there if you're white. And if it's a white barbershop, certain barbers, you don't go in there if you're black either. It's not a matter of, it's just the way it is. It's self-segregation down there still.

And it's a weird thing. I mean, I get it. One's bitter and one's angry. You've got angry versus bitter and they both, you know, are pissed at each other. It's ridiculous. And some that don't really give a fuck. They just don't want to be a part of this. That's the other thing. And then if you come there as an outsider you're like what the

hell is going on right what's going on that barbecue looks delicious i want to go there and also that hillbilly's got some service i would like to serve well why can't i have both i don't know why he got all the beer i'm going over there in new york you can go anywhere you want it's fucking great so i don't know not to not to take sides on the whole Civil War thing here, but I'm from New York and I tend to see that as like, I don't know, not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I've never been told like, you can't go in there. That's a black restaurant. Like, what?

I've never been told that before. I've never been heard that like, you know, black people can't go into that place. In New York, if someone gave someone a hard time for being black, like overtly, it would not be considered okay. And it'd be loud. It'd be loud. At least when I grew up. At least when I grew up. I mean, I'm sure at different times it was different.

But in the 90s, it would have been like, hey, what the fuck, dude? The hell's wrong with you? Religion in this town, about 25% are religious, which is low for this area. Most are Baptists who are religious, obviously. Baptists are the Catholics of of the south as we know 0.0 percent jewish though they're not not having any of that down there uh i mean the jewish people they're like i'm not dealing with this uh 53.4 percent of uh of the people here voted democrat in the last election in the town and 42 percent voter republican so this is actually it was you know a more democratic area here um

which is you know it's north carolina has pockets of different uh political views all based on pretty much race and class right in north carolina if you look at it economic it's a yeah it's one of those things so um uh unemployment rate here is it's about 3.7 percent in the rest of the country here it's about 5.6 percent it's a little bit high household income is 33 266 dollars so that's that's super low that's almost 25 grand under the national average military wages yeah 22 make under 15 000 a year uh 45 make 30 000 or under a year. So it's tough. Twice the manufacturing jobs as usual, and those are come and go. And then there's also twice the health care and social services jobs because there's a lot of kids and old people who need health care and social services. Cost of living is an 89 out of 100. Housing is a 76 out of 100.

That's still not low enough. No. Median home cost $177,000. How do you do it? That's what I mean. That's a low wage for that. No, median home cost $177,000. How do you do it? That's what I mean. That's a low wage for that. Well, you know what? If you're going to try, we have something for you.

We have the Rayford, North Carolina Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $810. That seems like probably maybe a decent bet, but there's some houses that you can find that are good price here. Foreclosure, I found. Three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,500 square feet here. Needs some work, but it's $34,900. That's doable.

That's really inexpensive for a 1,500-square-foot house. Three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,200-square-foot house. This one's nice. You can move right in. It doesn't really need a lot of work. Ready to go. $126,900. Jesus.

That's pretty low. That's not bad. That's a lot to deal with if you're making under $40,000 a year. Well, let's say you're making a lot more. You own the hatchery or something. And a three-bedroom, four-bath, I found, bath i found 2965 square feet but it's on 10 acres oh get in here and it has it has shops and sheds and all sorts of shit out there 749 000 bucks for that so wow that buys you a pretty good hunk of land my word not bad at all yeah and

there's all sorts of shit like big you know corrugated steel buildings all over the property that's so much north carolina it's very north yeah you can own a bunch of the state it's awesome it could be the re-drumming of north carolina get in there get in there things that never want to get in there associated with re-drumming just no yeah it's even worse things to do here, well, this, what else do you need? The 30th annual, or this year it'll be the 31st annual North Carolina Turkey Festival. Oh, boy. Oh, baby. That begins here. The annual tennis tournament kicks it off.

What? What the fuck does that have to do with a turkey festival? No. So we're going to have a turkey festival. Excellent. That's great. You have a lot of hatcheries around here. Awesome.

All right. So we're going to have the festival. We're going to have know vendors people you know turkey wares turkey products new things showing how good their turkeys are how do we kick it off well a tennis match obviously yeah clearly okay good i mean a badminton you got at least the birdie yeah you know what i mean or kind of a hockey game in intermission too in between the parade and the the turkey parade it sounds like that's the only thing that's plentiful there is just a there's a tennis court so like i mean we could do that there's grass we have some grass we could

paint lines on it put a net up they also have uh planned events for the week opening ceremonies a tennis tournament as we the aforementioned opening ceremony a card tournament cards they're gonna play cards yeah like they're gonna play poker here's tennis and then here's some people are gonna sit down and play canasta or some fucking i don't know what the hell they're gonna play some bridge for a while get some uno going old ladies playing bridge i feel like it is i don't understand that then there's a parade a 5k run a car show shit was picked out of a hat yeah tennis grab bag of car show and then a dog show as well after that what can we show off i got a car i got a dog i'm gonna put my dog in my car and win the whole damn thing grand champion of the festival everybody i'm gonna teach my dog to drive and play tennis fuck with me well

you can teach him to do one other thing you You can really, you can win the finale, because the finale of the whole thing is a turkey cooking contest and bake-off. Oh, my God. So, if you can teach your dog to cook a turkey, he could win it all. You hate Thanksgiving food. Oh, it's gross. This whole thing is a piece of shit to you. I mean, thanks.

That's not necessarily. That's every day. That's an everyday food. I like a turkey sandwich. Yeah. Cold cut-wise, you slice it. But a whole goddamn turkey to carve a turkey sandwich. That's an everyday food. Yeah. Cold cut wise. Slice it. But a whole goddamn turkey to carve up and pull breadcrumbs out of his ass. I'm good.

That's a lot. I'm all right. That's a lot to do. I'll take the crispy skin, but you can keep the rest of that shit. This is a stupid festival. This is not fun. No fun. They have contests.

The Turkey Festival is at the North Carolina Poultry Federation. Oh. That sounds like a wrestling company. The North Carolina Poultry Federation champion, Jimmy Wisman. Come out with like a, wearing a chick in his pants. Your leg sticking out through the leg holes.

No underwear. A loincloth made of chicken. My dick through his neck. a loincloth made of chicken through his neck cloth of raw chicken that's what i can see you walking out in the north carolina poultry and you have now designed my entry to all live shows in the future the ncpf heavyweight champion weight champion it's only me i'm the heaviest of those weights it's perfect so jesus christ four finalists will compete in the turkey cooking contest will be competing for top award winning recipe of 500 oh 500 bucks for the best turkey bakers young and old alike will be competing for the top award winning bake-off title so there you you go. Entry forms are due by August 8th, everybody. We can't just walk up with a turkey and go,

I'm going to cook this fucking thing. You're pitting old women with 50 years of experience making a turkey against little Nancy over here? These kids now, forget about it. They'll probably do some crazy, weird technique. Have you watched any Food Network show with children cooking? I don't know how to do any of that, i'm pretty good cook and that's all youtube something and make the most amazing turkey you've ever seen they're all like chemists now what is happening

so my turkey shoots fireworks out of that look at that it's great it actually tastes like licorice you're like what how did you do that just make it taste like a twizzler get over here willie little willie wonka you bastard little fucker So crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, the important stuff here. Crime rate, property crime is almost double the national average. Really? So there's some, the review wasn't off on that. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. Don't forget assault.

The Mount Rushmore of crime is also about 25% high. Wow. So there's some shit popping off here. This is a dangerous little place. off here there's a lot of dangerous little place yeah there's a lot of crime and when you get like uh just there's people it's kind of like i said there'll be some people from fort bragg some people from over here so it's kind of uh some of the crime is transient sure in nature in terms like people aren't even from there crimes are committed there it's four square miles with some rural shit yeah it's four and a half

square miles of town and then there's a lot's four and a half square miles of town. And then there's a lot of farm and rural prison hospital and all this other shit out here. So speaking of that, let's talk about a murder. Yeah. Let's get into this here a little bit. Let's talk about some people. Yeah. Let me go back in time.

Make it juicy like a butterball. Jesus, baby. Let's go back in time. Let's go back. Let's have the clock spinning. Lightning flashing. Yeah. We got to do this.

We're going to go back. We're going to bounce around to drop on time so pay attention to the timeline uh first we're gonna start in in uh 1980 okay just to give you an overview of a person and then we'll kind of go back and tell you how they got it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just

garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast

Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max,

starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. There's a woman named Faye Perrier. P-U-R-Y-E-e-a-r per year i guess per year i don't know what per year i'm going with uh faye we'll call her faye like that now faye in 1980 uh phase she's been having some problems faye um she's in her 30s um she has uh

three children two daughters and a son um k, Teresa, and Brad, as of 1980. Karen's about 10 years old. Teresa's about six years old. And Brad is about nine years old. So, I'm sorry, Brad and Teresa, flip that. Okay. Flip that. Do this again.

Yeah. Teresa's nine, Brad's six. Okay, Brad's the baby. Yes. Got it. And Karen is the oldest at like 10 11 ish so grim girl yeah it's the grim karen she's not grim at the time at the time happy little kid i guess but things don't go well for for these kids though for at first i mean we don't know but i'm assuming

in the 70s in these conditions basically they're in and out of foster care um faye's kids faye is having some trouble getting stability in her life and uh so her kids are kind of in and out of foster care with three babies single mom through well yeah and well she ends up being married too but that that ends up falling apart and so yeah she's got three young kids it's the 70s and uh it's a tough way tough tough livings and things like that. So she's having a hard time. And, yeah, they would move kind of back in. And then they'd be taken back away.

And then sometimes she couldn't take care of them. She'd have to give them up. So that's how it went. Now, the last few years have been kind of rocky for her. In 1974, she met a man that was kind of involved with her after that but not really romantically after a while here a man named edward lee cummings okay edward lee cummings uh he's born in 1940 so as of 1973 he's 33 34 years old about to be 34 years old um yeah he's born there born in north carolina um he's in hoke county he's a local guy um he uh dropped out of school in the ninth grade yeah

in you know in the in the 50s that old chestnut yeah that's i think he was like 1940 christ he's he's basically the guys and that's that's the movie greece that's the thing he's basically the guys in, that's the movie Grease. He's like kind of their senior class type of thing. But he didn't make it that far. He's like Knicky if he didn't stay in school. If Knicky just decided to drop out and go with the program, which I mean for Knicky, I don't

think he was that interested in academics anyway. I think he was there for the girls. For the chicks. For the chicks. And the guys, and you go to shock class. James, the chicks. For the chicks. And this fast car. You hang out with the guys and you go to shock class. Right, because James, the chicks will cream. Yeah. Everybody go back and listen to the-

This is the most disgusting movie. Listen to P.S. I Hate This Movie with me and Sarah. We did that. We did Grease. Did you? And we had watched it like 30 times. We broke this shit down to a science movie. That song?

The whole movie. That song though is vibe. science that song the whole the whole movie though but that song especially oh that's so gross it's a because sarah would bring up how you know she was uh she was a kid and like her aunt would you know they'd go over her aunt's house and watch greece oh boy never realized that chicks will cream yeah she's a it's a he's she's a real pussy wagon yeah in the song it says the car's a pussy wagon getting lots of tit yeah we'll be getting lots of tit in our pussy wagon with all these creaming girls. That's the song. That's Grease Lightning.

Isn't that cute? You know what I'm saying? But we break that down, and I have a whole theory on Knicky. I have a whole backstory for him. Knicky's a dark figure. That song, though, it's 30 years later, too short, perfected it with Fuck My Car. That's pretty much what it is. It's basically that song for the ghetto.

Oh, man. Travolta, by the way, has no testicles because he bounces off of his tank several times. So many times. Several times to the point where, no. I don't know if he took medication to suck them up into his body or how he pulled this off, but there's no way his kids are his is what i'm getting at if he if he has testicles he's bounced up just from that one scene plexiglass hood boom several times just like no regard for his taint whatsoever

none unbelievable fucking man ruining it yeah ruining down under there that's what happens and apparently that causes you to be a pervert later i don't know who knows weird super strange right so but it's in the sky so it's safe it's okay it's all it's all everybody got on board willingly yeah it's like in 30 rock it's sky law it's fine sky law don't worry sky law it's like international law it's the same thing international waters international air it's fine once you're like once you're three miles up it's all so it works here once you're above the clouds no one has jurisdiction so uh yeah he's born in like i said ninth grade he completes he ends up working in tobacco fields yeah for because if you're an unskilled 14 year old in the in the job market in rural North Carolina in the late 50s, there's really not a lot for you.

And the cigarette industry is booming. And North Carolina was loving it. Absolutely. I remember looking in the 50s. Everybody was smoking. And they were pumping shit out. I remember looking when my dad lived in North Carolina. We were back there visiting him.

And I'm just looking through. is like 2001 maybe looking through like uh their newspaper at the time my dad always got the newspaper and i was like there's nothing else to do so i'm looking through the newspaper and i remember seeing in the jobs one of them was for like a tobacco sweeper and it was like it sounded like the worst job i've ever heard of it's cleaning up the scraps on the floor yeah it was it was cleaning up the scraps and it described the sweeping and all this and it said conditions will be extremely hot and humid dusty and dirty must be able to lift this much but i think it was 6 10 an hour yeah i'm like holy shit you're essentially camping it's the worst job in the history of man and they're like six bucks you do it like holy fuck so and people are jumping to do it yeah and this if you were if you were 14 i can't imagine you were going to do much

better than that uh later on he gets into construction a little bit too and uh kind of you know just he's a labor he goes wherever there's work yeah uh wherever there's work he's married and uh it was a little talk about he has some slight legal troubles in 1963 um it's a little uh assaulty we'll call it yeah yeah but i mean it's the 60s who knows what he's doing out there not with women i don't think i mean it was a punching thing okay it was more of a punchy than a grabby. Got it. And not with women. Probably punching dudes. I think it was a dude punching thing, but assaulting.

Got it. Nonetheless. Still illegal. Showing physical aggression. Yeah. But still, he marries a woman named Hazel McNeil in 1964, and they end up having four children together. So old Edward Lee Cummings and Hazel.

He's banging out Hazel. Eddie and Hazel are being fruitful and multiplying, we'll say here. So, yeah, they get together. Now, they have, this is a rocky marriage, always. Like, he's in and out of it. Him and Hazel? Him and Hazel, yeah. Oh, Edward and Hazel.

Oh, boy. Oh, Eddie, because they call him Eddie. Eddie and Hazel have had a real rocky road, we'll say. There, they live with each other. They don't. He'll go live with another woman for a while and then come back. It's like crazy shit. There's probably seven people under 60 today named Hazel.

They're all named after their grandmother. But pretty much anybody named Hazel has had... She might have a granddaughter named after her. That's the thing. Anybody named Hazel, this the basically their life is their life yeah so they they they're he he always has a home that he provides for them and uh he'll be in and out of it though that's the thing yeah they end up settling down in willow springs north carolina and that's where where his main house is where she and the children live and where he periodically lives and other if he's not going out with other women and he he will talk about him because he's kind of a he's kind of a disgusting person and

he's got some problems in his personal life he's got some some some shit that's not quite up to par a little dirty hang ups first of all he owned two nightclubs over the course of his life which is fine you know that's a legitimate business but i've never met anyone who owned a nightclub who isn't a complete scumbag that's the other thing though i've met two guys not a prerequisite but you you pretty much have to be a scumbag i've met two guys that were uh they seemed fine whenever we would be at the club with them uh but and they own the place but then after hours i got to see their real life that's the thing yeah it's disgusting it's it's not good it's all always cocaine right always cocaine and all even if you work in a fucking restaurant it's

open till 11 everyone's on coke right like you people can't stay awake past nine without cocaine what's wrong with you and afterwards they went over to a guy named quote-unquote porno mike's house yeah and porno mike had just a fuck fest over at his house every night. And I didn't know until they invited me. And I was like, this is bizarre. A restaurant I worked at, they just used to hang out with Armenian gangsters after the time. Because that's who would come in until closing. They're going to do coke and go to strip clubs with Armenian gangsters.

I'm like, I don't think so. I'm going to go home now. I'd rather do that than be at Porno Mike's house. Probably, yeah. Porno Mike's house means, I feel like you're going to get jizz on you that's not yours. At some point, someone else's jizz is going to touch your body. Don't touch a thing here. The Armenian gangsters, that shit's off limits.

No one's going to jizz on you, but it's still probably dangerous, you know? Yeah, I'll never forget being there, though. That was a wild fucking experience. Seeing 30 people fucking at the same time. That's not right. It's weird. Yeah. It's very weird.

Yeah. There's not. Well, there's not a lot to focus on either. That's like looking at a dish of spaghetti and go, look at those two noodles. Right. Which ones? They're all mixed in and intertwined with the other ones. Where's that one stopping?

Where's that one stopping? That's what I mean. They're all together. Which one? They all look like a plate of noodles at that point isn't it that could be one noodle i don't know that's what i'm saying it's too much it's the the macro picture of that it's just too much to take in somebody else drove me so and they were fucking micro i couldn't even leave i had to take beer out back by the jacuzzi and drink by myself i just pictured everybody was

drunk sitting i just pictured you sitting in a chair next to them drinking a beer while they're fucking just waiting you almost done i thought he was working out now he's he's backing back off okay never mind i thought this is no it's cool i'm gonna finish my beer so this is pre-uber yeah a cab ride was expensive and I wasn't paying it. It was $75. I'm fucking, I'll drink out here. That's, yeah. Nightclub owners are, they're just never upstanding people. It's always gross. Ever.

Yeah. It's just a weird thing. I don't know what it is to want to basically be at a place where you have to be there at three o'clock in the morning and be around sleazy drunk people. Your job is essentially facilitating two people to get fucked up enough to fuck each other. That's what it is. That's what a nightclub is.

The environment has got to be perfect for mating. It's like you're in a zoo trying to get the pandas to fuck. That's what you're doing. You've just got to set the environment up right for them. You've got to run panda fuck noises. Lights down. One more. No, he still looks like shit lights down more perfect great

no no our ass looks great now let's do this yeah it's ready for the night kick that music up no it's got to be loud enough so people can't hear each other if they talk they're not going to like each other do you understand they're going to be repulsed by each other. They have to go, what? What? I don't know. Just rub your ass on me. Okay. The early 90s, early 2000s. I can't see it.

That's the point. The popularity and how much black lighting was in these places was fucking crazy. It's ridiculous. Flickering, seizure-inducing lighting. Oh, fuck, man. It's fucking epileptic. Yeah. Trigger shit everywhere.

The amount of as seen on tv uh uh globes that you know i mean those little strobe lights yeah the black strobe lights that they they'd hang them in the corner strobe lights those are for like a college student's desk what are we doing god jesus why why good lord it's too much fuck me so that's that's a nightclub owner but i mean we're talking a nightclub in north carolina right in the late 60s early 70s so we're not talking like you know it's not studio 54 no it's a rural nightclub in north carolina but people punishing themselves because they sweep tobacco during the day that's what and they come here to try to find somebody to yeah either fuck them or

help them rub their filthy genitals on they they've been working all day so he he tobacco shaving stuff yeah oh you know they are yeah impacted into his asshole so it works impacted tobacco shaving that's disgusting yeah so you gotta get a corkscrew to get it out that's what it turns into after a while so you keep touching back that's right so he he lived in uh like i said on and off in willow springs north carolina with edward did eddie with his wife hazel yeah and the four children he also owns a property and a house in hoke county uh near rayford now this house isn't really done it's kind of a texas chainsaw massacre house

it's just kind of he bought like this property with a dilapidated house on it that's out of a horror movie yeah that's what it is so job is to raise it and build a new one yeah he's kind of he's kind of fixing it up here and there as he goes but he's we'll talk about he's not the he's not the most really focused studious guy in the world and it's expensive to remodel a house so he doesn't have a ton of money to do that so he doesn't know his construction so he's he's kind of working on his plan is eventually to have a nice house on this property it's gonna be fucking 90 that's the yeah but he's had it for a while too this property so now in 1974 he uh eddie meets faye per year who we talked about before with the three kids, Teresa,

Karen, Brad, in and out of foster care. In 1974, he meets her at a nightclub in Raleigh. And like we said, this is like an hour and a half away from here. This is a nightclub. And yeah, Raleigh's a city. There's a shitload of colleges there. So you have the four major colleges in that area. So, I mean, forget about it. There's a shitload of colleges there. So you have the four major colleges in that area. So, I mean, forget about it.

There's a lot of nightlife. UNC, NC State, Wake Forest, Duke are all right there. So all sorts of different, all good basketball schools. Absolutely. They're crazy for basketball. So they meet at this nightclub. And this is she at the time. Just had had her son.

So she's just kind of getting back out into the world. And they end up having a romantic relationship out of this. They meet at this nightclub. Little romantic relationship. It goes on for a while. It's nothing serious. They don't move in together. They're never serious and focused.

No one ever thinks they're going to get married or anything like that. But they kind of hang out with each other and there's seven kids between them they got shit to talk about that's right well he's married still oh that's the other thing he's married with four kids so he's not like yeah he's just he's having an affair with her basically and then they're kind of going back and forth and you know she's not with him she's looking for other relationships and being people are being people, you know, so they end up meeting. Now, after a little while, though, it ends up petering out the romantic relationship

peters out and they just kind of turn into friends and they just they're just hang out. I've seen that. It happens. Yes, especially in this type of situation. It's just kind of moved on from there. Now they're just kind of pals sort of thing. there now they're just kind of pals got a sort of thing so um they end up uh in 1980 or so they uh they end up kind of meeting up together uh another one of their times of just hanging out and being friends is 1980 because they'll go times where they don't talk for a while or run into each

other well what the hell you live around here too of those things. So this in 1980 is just when Faye is getting her kids back from one of her foster care, one of their Johnson foster care. Karen, at this moment in time, is about 15 years old. Okay. She's about 15, 16 years old in 1980. And it's at this point where Eddie comes into the house to hang out and things like that. While they're hanging out, early in 1981, while Karen's about 15, he's 37 at this moment

in time, some shit like that. Yeah. I'm sorry, 40. 40. 40. That means 40 years old. He's 40 years old. They become involved romantically.

They start seeing each other. She doesn't get to make that decision become involved romantically seeing each other she doesn't get to make that that's not seeing each other a 40 year old and a 15 year old together is just molesting that's all that is this is grooming and raping you put any title you want on it you can say age and this and that that's just molesting i don't care what that's yeah i don't care what the law is there i don't care if it's consensual molesting it's still molesting i don't care if she's like cool molest me that's not her she's too youngual molesting. It's still molesting. I don't care if she's like, cool, molest me. That's not her. She's too young to make that decision. That's why there's laws.

So it's not okay. This is going on in her mother's home. Faye, this is a known thing. No, they're together. Oh, my God. They're involved. It's not like when mom goes to sleep, he sneaks in and fucking. No, no, no.

They're sitting on the couch holding hands. Oh, boy. All watching Family Feud together. This is fucking nuts this is crazy is he still married oh yeah oh he's fucking married he's got four kids happening he's got kids older than her yeah i mean this is fucking crazy yeah yeah he's got kids well older than oh jesus so this is disgusting like this is not okay no and i have to i mean whatever i don't know i'm that's the thing i'm not there and i'm not a single i wasn't a single parent in the 70s struggling and all this type of shit but i don't see really any excuse for being okay with a 40 year old man who you

know that you hang out with at nightclubs who you had a thing with years ago to now have sex with your teenage daughter and you're like that's cool no he's all right he's a nice guy it's fine like no how about that thing he does you know what i mean yeah it's pretty good right no what the fuck are you kidding me man that's not okay come on dude so anyway yeah he's fucking 40 40 41 years old at this point she's a sophomore this is not okay no you know jesus christ so uh during this they uh uh in 1983 uh they have a son together wait what oh yeah oh my god oh yeah so she's now 17 together oh where's his family and his kids willow springs living in the house hazel hazel's had enough i mean what does she know here she's not gonna divorce him i don't know what she's doing

that's it yeah she's she's living in i'm fucking i am shocked by this how is it even here this story doesn't even make sense they stay his hazel and the four kids stay in in his home that they sort of live together in up until august of 1984 when she takes off but in the meantime he is married but also staying here and and having a relationship with a teenager okay uh essentially with a high school student so and creating children and go creating creating let's talk about those children uh one of them clifford allen Allen, Little Cliffy, as they called him. He was the first one here. Now, Little Cliffy, he's born in late March 1983.

He ends up dying at five weeks old. Oh, no. Little Cliffy of what they called sudden infant death syndrome. Oh, no. And they didn't know at the time. But, I mean, that's the... We've talked about that before. The most frightening thing on the face of the earth. And it's got to be the most scarring as a parent.

I didn't sleep for two years when both of my kids were infants, just because I would stand up. I kept checking them to make sure they were breathing. Because there's no symptoms. We've talked about it in crime and sports. There's no symptoms of SIDS. They go, is it a baby? Yes.

Is it supposed to be alive? Yes. Is it? No. That's it. Those are the symptoms. It's fucking horrible, man. Those are the symptoms.

It's supposed to be alive and it's not. No explanation. That's it. That's the one. Now sleep at night. What are you, fucking crazy? I can't oh that's it yeah the one now now sleep at night what are you fucking crazy i can't sleep my head's gonna explode and you've got two more kids in the house oh my god best of luck sleeping until they're 18 enjoy so it is crazy though so but i mean it's it happens to people it happens a lot it's this it's a very it's a horribly sad thing it's so common

that it got itself a fucking name yeah just sudden infant deaths that's so just disturbing sudden sudden sudden sudden is the scary sudden now sudden is the scary part sudden means like fine without fine that's just not okay now that's the baby's death certificate states that Clifford died of natural causes from this. It just, you know, it happens. And but now Eddie doesn't feel that way. No. Eddie, on the other hand, has questions.

Eddie. Well, not so much questions as much as blame. Oh, he's got accusations. Eddie's got blame for Teresa, Karen's little sister. Oh, yeah. Who's a teenager at this point is 15 years old, he blames her for it. He says that he believes she smothered the baby.

He has no reason to believe this, no proof to believe this. He doesn't like Teresa. He doesn't have evidence other than the fact. Yeah. They don't get along, which probably means she's smart. Yeah. That's what I mean. Because if I'm the little sister and I'm sitting there and my older sister's got this dirt

bag in the house impregnating her who's fucking twice her age plus and she's a teenager and I'm a teenager, I don't like that guy. She recognizes how gross this is. And plus, rather than me being with my sister hanging out, she's now pregnant with some old guy's child. This is fucking weird if you're in the eighth grade. You know i mean it's just weird she should be listening to debbie gibson or whatever yeah this is 1983 yeah she should be she should definitely be begging for mtv right now that's what she should be doing and instead begging she's nursing a child yeah that's what

i'm saying that's so i could get theresa not not getting along with them, with her. So Eddie blames Teresa for this whole shit. You know, I don't understand this. Just blames him like crazy. And she's kind of a troubled kid, Teresa, from what I understand. Yeah, they've been in and out of foster care. That's the thing. I understand all of this, really, the behavior. It all makes sense.

You want love, and this guy finally is giving it. I get that. I understand Karen accepting it. Her dad's not around, too. Karen's dad's not around. Karen doesn't understand laws, but this man is offering affection, so he's there. In a child's mind, it makes sense, and I could see her, and especially with her history, it makes sense.

And that's the thing. We don't know specific. All we know is in and out of foster care. What does that entail? If you step back and say in and out of foster care what does that entail right if you did you step back and say in and out of foster care it's fine but if you actually micro that yeah focus in on each incident yeah of why a child would be in foster care or multiple times and what things we don't know what happened to these and the amount of things that they own is minuscule yeah

so when they move into the next foster care now they've got to get to know somebody else there yeah who knows what happened to each of these places because foster care back then probably oh who would want somebody else's kids in their house like that stevie we taught we watch stevie and it's it's fucking stevie that's what happened to foster care back then the kids got abused a lot it's rare that people want other people's kids in their house out of the kindness of their heart not for a check that's fucked up yeah we looked at stevie at the stevie movie was at one time that he had a decent situation in foster care dozens of times only reason he was out of it is because they got a better job at some other church right and didn't take him with sorry stevie got better money over here gotta go now uh that's what i mean so theresa So Teresa has behavioral difficulties and things like that, which are to be expected.

Like I said, it's to be expected. So on September 15th, 1983, this is about four months after little Cliff died, the baby, Faye, Faye Perrier, Teresa and Karen's mom, she gets a juvenile petition uh to keep her young to keep theresa in school okay apparently there's some kind of uh she basically has to get the court to get involved to to keep to be for theresa to be allowed to stay in school apparently i don't know if there's a behavioral issue or what it is but there's a problem with theresa so it's getting the courts involved to make her go to make her go to school yeah it's a it's a thing to try to keep her to force her to go to school and to let the kid let the school keep her too yeah the school wants her out so

she's trying to make it so she has to stay there and has to go to school to get the mayor's autograph for this shit that's what i mean and if you live in like a more rural area too it's not like oh we'll just go to the other school a mile away like that's the fucking school if you can't go there where are you going you either have to drive the kid 40 miles or you can you know teach them at your yourself i don't i don't think fey is up for it just based on the past i don't know i don't know right who knows maybe she just got her degree and whatever and she's ready to teach but i'm not sure you know i can't make any judgment around with the kids she was out getting her phd yeah so literature or some shit yeah now theresa like i said that's september 15th 1983 she

gets this juvenile petition now three days later theresa disappears oh god she's gone no one can find her she's missing um everybody thinks that uh she ran. That's the thing. She's just labeled a runaway, basically. And there is rumors and speculation, and everybody, it's kind of the accepted thing that she ran away with migrant farm workers who are Mexican.

That's the, literally, everyone goes, she ran away. It's in the newspaper. She's thought to have ran away with Mexican migrant farm workers unreal that's what they think like she that's her ticket out these guys have it made how out of touch whoa with reality are the people investigating he makes 6 10 an hour like this he came here to work his ass off in a tobacco field i'm sure that his life is wonderful i'm

you know i'm gonna hitch my wagon to that star like what the fuck is going on he gets paid 11 orange rinds a day yeah like not what the fuck is happening yeah in the south back then they weren't paying these guys very well they're paying them under the table a lot and shit like that there's no was eddie leading the investigation yeah it's ridiculous so anyway anyway, that's the rumor. She left with migrant farm workers. She's missing. She's considered a runaway.

And this goes on and on. There's articles in the newspaper about Faye longing for her daughter. And the way they put it is she's been missing, but she's considered a runaway. Faye says, quote, I just want her to call home and tell me she's OK. And obviously, she says that if she knew how worried I was, she'd come back. I believe that she she would know I love her. So she's trying to say, like, whatever it is, she's desperate for her daughter. She doesn't want her daughter to be to run away and not want to be around her.

Right. Makes sense. You know, they're talking about this whole article there's one article about how how they go about looking for missing children and it's all about kind of how they're classified yeah and this is in the 80s this is not now now kid goes missing there's a goddamn amber alert it's a whole deal phone goes crazy back then they'd be like yeah but she probably ran away right all right well that's the back of the file then the runaway file is different from the we think they're in danger file that's a different thing so they didn't investigate shit quite as as uh they'd ask a few questions if nobody knew where she went they go i don't know she ran away yeah we'll tell you if she turns up that's it we'll put a picture out there you know we'll put it in the system it's all we can do so uh Adam, was he the first milk carton kid?

Was he the first one? No, I think it was that kid in New York. And that was in the 80s, so that was long after this. Pats, is that his name? I don't know. Etan, yes. Etan Pats. I think he was the, that they just found recently.

Get the fuck out. Oh, they just figured out what happened to him in the last year and a half oh i gotta do some googling do some google crack it yeah do some google and there's a there's a uh yeah there was a a guy it's a it's a pretty fucked up thing what happened i cannot i mean i can wait they searched far and wide and let's just say he wasn't very far and they always do every time they search far and wide for somebody they're always across the street that one i was we were watching live pd and there's this kid missing and he's 14 yeah it was one of those missing segments he's 14 and there's some kid and they're like people think he might have gone here might have gone there he was talking about this and talking about that they ended up finding him very sad this just happened

they ended up finding him across the street in a house that was uh vacant uh stuck in the chimney dead oh no he's trying to get in through the chimney oh god damn it stuck in the chimney dead. Oh, no. He was trying to get in through the chimney and he died. Oh, God damn it. He got stuck in there and died. That's so much more heartbreaking. Huge search,

whole thing, and he's right there. God damn it. Heartbreaking. That's fucking horrible. Oh, what a crusher. Yeah, it's bad shit. He's just kicking around in a house.

Yeah, he was trying to get away and go try to get into that house so he could, I guess... Squat? Squat, yeah. Just get away from his family for a while he gets fucking place he would get angry and run away they said and shit like that but it felt terrible for this kid you know that's a horrible way to go so um the uh apparently they

they're talking about this it's a problem of missing children it's because there's a lot of this is right after the adam movie came out which which was right now. You were talking about the Adam Walsh thing here. But they said that, you know, it's still it's still slow going with this because it's difficult. They said it's difficult to distinguish between missing juveniles and miss. You know, the they said the officials estimate about 80 percent of the cases were juveniles and more than of the missing people that they have, like under 21. The 80% are under 18. And they said 95% of those are probably runaways, is what they say. So they say the manpower to chase down runaways, they just don't have the manpower to do this, basically.

That number seems optimistically high. I would say so. Wow. chase down runaways they can't they just don't have the manpower to do this basically that number seems uh optimistically high i would say wow what do they think what do they think there's some place it's probably true though there's some fucking neverland somewhere where all where all the kids go to never grow up what are you talking about yeah they're all they're all in a cave somewhere they'll jump in a floating boat and follow the lord of the flies the right island is there it's so dumb no that is a fucking unbelievably optimistic number it's also true though really yeah 95 yeah there's very little actual stranger on child murders and abductions it's super rare yeah we hear about it because

it's that's the media that's interesting stranger it's or i'm just saying abduction if the death if like the dad most of the most kidnappings are as a parent so that's you know who he is and you know where he's at that's not a missing kid that number is probably not missing kids it's the parents fucking buried somebody in the backyard was like run away this doesn't count as for kidnapped kids like known kidnap like my husband took the kid i don't know where he is that doesn't count for these missing kids these are just i don't know where the kid is he's missing me and the father are both standing here we don't know where he is. That doesn't count for these missing kids. These are just, I don't know where the kid is. He's missing. Me and the father are both standing here. We don't know where the kid is.

It's one of those things. So most of those are runaways from bad situations and things like that. But, and the guy says, this is a Raleigh detective. He says the majority would be what I call overnighters. They either come back home within 24 hours or have made contact with their parents. They were me. That's what I mean. That's what I'm talking about.

Most of these kids, if you need to search for them right away like they do now with an Amber Alert, but most of these kids, if you did, you'd just find them at their friend's house or like they're not in trouble. They're a loaf of Wonder Bread and peanut butter. They're sitting in the woods fucking going, I'll show them, God damn it. I got my sleeping bag that i got from my closet fuck it's cold i'm going home i brought my tent a tent has scooby-doo on it yeah i'm gonna make it i'm gonna do it right now god damn it till a tornado comes through this motherfucker i'll make it it's all a light-hearted nightmare

on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alinaquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity,

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From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to generation y ad free right now by joining wondery plus yeah so the raleigh police in this particular case they uh say publicly to the newspaper they believe theresa per year is a runaway yeah and um that's how they're looking at it they think

she's a runaway and they'd like to find her but they don't they're not going to put as much effort into it as they would if they thought she'd been you know abducted or something like that they think based on her history and based on what they've heard from her friends and people around they think she's a runaway yeah that's what people said her mom though faye is not so sure she says i don't know if terry i don't know if she ran away theresa would get mad, but her never her anger never ran long. She has never run away before. So that's the new thing, though. But it could happen.

Who knows? She said that she understands that this is a lot of a lot of there's a lot of missing kids out there and that the police have to investigate everybody. But she said still she's not satisfied with the department's handling. She said, quote, I went to see chief uh heineman and could not see him i i went to the sbi they told me that they could not get involved unless the police requested help so they went to the bureau of investigation can't help there she went to see the chief of police they said they're not interested in seeing you right now got lots of missing kids sorry so she's just being she's being shunted off because she's poor basically that's how it's working i guarantee you if it was some rich kid

that either ran away or not the mother would be able to sit down with the chief of police and talk to him about just at least to express her concerns i would imagine but these people are treating them like they're trash and just kind of who cares one of those things so uh the uh they said that the uh the they treat the most missing cases as if there were foul play involved because they you know want to be that's how everything should be treated yeah he says quote we treat a missing kid as a high priority case we follow up on a case just as if there was something wrong we do a lot of interviews and neighborhood canvassing if it's necessary, and usually it's necessary. But he said in the Teresa's case, he said, quote, we've been to numerous places in the city and county to try to locate the child.

We have talked to several other agencies in an attempt to find her. So he's saying, look, we fucking tried. I don't know what to tell you. Doing our best. Yeah. He said another person that ran the juvenile unit said, quote, I've had those types of cases where the parents felt there was something wrong. They said their child would not take off and run but nothing in the investigation indicated foul play but i've been fooled all you can do is go on face value basically they have to predict based on the parents level of you know antsiness and the kids history whether

they would run away or not i think i think she'd run away and they make that they kind of make that judgment and prioritize accordingly, which seems really fucking weird. That also seems like a tough nut to crack to make an appraisal there. Yeah, that's the other thing. That's fucking, I wouldn't want to be a cop making that.

No, that's terrible. How are you going to do that? I don't know this kid. Imagine making that judgment call of, they're probably fine, and then finding out that they're not fine later. Finding them in a creek tomorrow. Yeah, how would you feel about that feel about that i really thought they ran away

right i thought she ran away with the boyfriend what are you gonna do live and learn i guess why was i wrong oh my god she's got no fucking head on her took her head right off this is crazy you can't run away like that yeah so obviously fay is in a in a tailspin here yeah obviously can't run away like that. Yeah. So obviously, Faye is in a tailspin here. Yeah, obviously. This is crazy. She says, quote, I've gained 25 pounds since Teresa left. See how she even says it. So since Teresa left nerves, I cry a lot.

I haven't been sitting still. I've been looking for her. I know Teresa's got to be out there somewhere, even though it just might be a wild goose chase. It makes you feel better. You never think it can hit home, but it can. can yeah so this is all yeah this is a horrible one not a horrible woman a horrible situation where a woman is fucking obviously super distraught i mean who wouldn't be losing her mind it's goddamn crazy well she's missing still she she goes missing that's 83 september of 83 into 84 she's still gone yeah they still

can't find her she's still missing by 84 though uh karen has another child god damn another one of eddie's kids yeah um at least she's like of age now yeah that's nice that's a fucking plus i can't even imagine this is insane uh a daughter named, which they have now, which is a very 80s name. It is. To name your kid. And her and now Karen and the kids now, because now she has... Brad. No, that's Faye's kid. Oh, okay. Talking Karen and Crystal here.

They move into the Willow Springs home that Hazel and his four kids used to live in. Oh, so they moved out yeah he's like fuck it i got a nest for us august of 84 they leave boots them out to move karen and the and crystal in wild so yeah this is turned into this is gross yeah uh this is really weird so faye's sitting at home crying wondering where daughter is, while her other daughter is moving in with their baby with some nightclub scumbag who she used to bathe. Listen, your mom's crying. It's been keeping me up all night. I got to get some rest.

Look, I just booted my family out the house. I mean, aren't you just moving with me? My kids didn't need a home. I'll get better sleep. Everything will be fine. Everything's going to be fine. Plus, you know, I just like it. If I'm going to have me a 17 year old 18 year old i'll keep her

under wraps in my own little kingdom i think no good here so um now oh my god so june of 1985 this lasts this arrangement lasts from august of 84 to june of 85 finally june of 85 she uh she leaves eddie karen's done. Karen's done with Eddie here. Relationships all washed up. She's 20 years old here. And she ends up finding a home of her own, not even with her mom. She finds a home for herself and her daughter in Raleigh. So gets away from there, goes someplace better, which is nice.

She's trying. Karen's going, I'm breaking this fucking cycle. I'm breaking it. Moving to the big city with a big police force. Getting out of there, going there where there's work and jobs. You know, this crazy shit.

I'm trying to, she's trying to make a life for her and her daughter. I mean, Jesus Christ, especially someone who's, who had a baby pass away like that with SIDS.

She probably, it seems like in her mind to me, it's like something just snapped and she was just like, not snapped in a bad way. Something snapped into place. She just went, oh my God oh my god this is fucked up yeah get out of this funk get my kid get away from this asshole go to somewhere where there's opportunity and do this shit so she does that actually june of 1985 uh problem is he's supposed to be paying child

support eddie is and he's not of course not not. So in late 1985, now a few months later after she moved out, she takes out a warrant against him for non-support. Right. She basically goes to the cops. He's not supporting me, which is terrific. Good. Go get him to support you. I wonder if he's paying Hazel.

Probably not. I would assume not. I imagine that paycheck's a lot bigger. Them kids will be 18 soon. I think he's just waiting out Hazel. Poor Hazel. I don't know what the hell happened to Hazel. Poor lady. left and fuck she has no wants no maybe she's happy maybe she wants no part of this guy maybe she's like free at last right fuck this guy jesus christ finally got away from

him who knows i'm not sure uh so they she takes out a warrant against him a hearing is scheduled for november 20th 1985 this is in october she takes out the warrant uh that's october 10th it's a criminal complaint actually this whole thing so now five days after that october 15th eddie takes the kids to his house um when basically he's got there's they had another baby in there too there's There's another son they had. So there's two little kids. Karen's got two kids. Karen's got two little kids that are alive. He's got six alive kids.

He's got six alive kids, this guy, that we know of. That's documented in a legal fucking case in court. I'm not sure. So apparently, five days later, Karen to eddie that she needed money for medicine for one of the kids yeah which is 1000 as legitimate of a thing as you can get and his fucking responsibility and his responsibility and uh instead of giving her money for the kids she he just took the kids to his house instead, which is, I don't know. I'll fucking, I'll doctor him.

You need medicine for kids. I'll just keep the kids. I got Robitussin at the house. It's going to be all right. I got some Advil. I'll hook him right up. Some turpentine. Oh, baby.

Now, he ends up, though, not returning the children. He won't return the children. She calls him. He won't. He says, no, I returning the children. He won't return the children. She calls him. He says, no, I'm keeping them. Also his responsibility. He said, basically, I don't want to pay you. I'm just keeping them then. That's what it is.

But that's not the arrangement. The arrangement is she has custody. He pays her child support. That's the legal arrangement. As a father who pays child support, I can see his logic. Well, if I don't give you money, then I'll just keep the kids. Yeah. His thing was, I don't feel like paying you.

I'll just keep the kids. I'll go against both court orders. I'm just going to do the parenting. Yeah. Rather than obey them both, I'll obey neither. I'll take them and not pay you. The money is not in lieu of parenting, Dickface. No, that's the thing.

You can't do that. It's not either parenting or money. That's not how it works and if the court says that the kids belong with her right probably for a reason probably because you're an asshole i'm going to assume you're a scumbag yeah and that's probably why so um yeah she uh uh he refuses to bring her the kids back to karen so she starts proceedings with legal services to get the children back i don't know why this isn't like a kidnapping thing if she has custody yeah why isn't it hey police all right he's not supposed to have them and i'm telling him to bring him home and he won't hello kid they're kidnapped raleigh police department of probably over a few hundred yeah

can i get two of you please just go on down there and grab these kids for me forget arresting him even i don't care give a shit my Just get my goddamn kids. Bring the kids back. That's all. But she ends up starting the proceedings but never following through on the proceedings for some reason. I assume he sweet-talked her out of it. That's all I can assume because

also, by the way, on October 22nd 1985, that's when she talked to officials at a legal aid in wake county about uh getting a more solid custody agreement from court okay of this whole thing so it's not all nailed down no that's why that's that's yeah they're not they're not married or anything like that they're doing this shit on a whim this is all on a whim uh so a paralegal at legal aid, a woman named Celia Mansare, she says that Karen told her that Eddie came over, took the kids away on October 15th, didn't return them. And also, Karen tells this woman, Celia, that not only would he not return them, when she said, well, I'm going to come get them, he says, well, I'll shoot you if you come over here and try it.

So now we got for sure at least one fucking law broken that's what i mean okay now at this point this guy has crossed several several boundaries and especially if you try to come get your kids which you have a right to i will shoot you is next level insane you can't do that shit so um yeah this is this is obviously the woman here, Celia, is concerned. And they discussed the procedure for gaining full custody of the kids. And Karen indicated to this woman that she's going to talk to Eddie and then we'll get back in touch with Celia. Basically, I'm going to talk to Eddie and see if he'll just agree to it. And if he won't, he threatened to shoot you. I'm going to say he's not going to be agreeable.

There's no negotiations. I can't imagine he's's gonna be too agreeable now this is you file he's very rational you file a subpoena for a court order for a custody hearing and we discuss it in court and you get the kids then or you call the goddamn sheriff or the police department you say hey i'm trying to get my kids and the fucking asshole said he's going to shoot me. Is that okay? Can you come with me maybe over there so he doesn't shoot me? How's that? I know we don't have a legal agreement on my children, but this happened also.

These words can't be said. Yeah, you can't just threaten to shoot people. Jesus. So, yeah, she said that she'd get back in touch then. So Eddie is served with a summons in the non-support case non-support case he gets you know served with papers on the 29th of october uh then but then he takes the kids so that seems like he would be pissed off getting the non-support uh um subpoena but in on halloween of that year he takes the kids back to karen's to go trick-or-treating

and he like gives the kids back and uh takes them all trick-or-treating and acts like everything's fine yeah so i don't know if the court documents maybe made it more real like oh there this isn't just between me and her on the phone now there's like you know a judge involved sure and shit so maybe i should try to be cordial or maybe he's not as drunk as he was before or we don't have any idea but either way there's it's it's it's interesting so then uh that she doesn't end up following through on any of the legal shit now with all this though that's the thing she never goes back to the legal services to get the custody she never goes and presses about him threatening the shooter sure none of

that shit on november 14th 1985 she goes to the daycare center to pick up her kids around 3 30 yeah in the afternoon uh within about 10 minutes of this because she goes in and it takes a couple minutes to round up a couple of kids and get all their shit within a few minutes of her doing that arriving there eddie drives up in his truck. Of course. And gets there. And what he ends up doing, they have a son. They have Crystal and they have little Eddie, who is their son. Yeah.

He picks up little Eddie and drives off. Okay. He just grabs one of the kids and goes. This one's mine. Yeah. So Karen grabs Crystal and gets in the car and follows him in the same direction. Where the fuck are you going? So you just stole my kid.

You can't do that. He just popped up and was like, I'll grab him. See you. Put him in the car and took my name on it. That's it. Little Eddie right here. Big Eddie. Little Eddie.

Have a good one. Got to go. Jesus fucking Christ. So she takes off. That's it. Now she takes off. And when she goes,'s uh she follows him and they they the people from the daycare watched this all occur because this is crazy and they're gonna pay

attention obviously shouting happening she drives off and then no one hears from her after that again no she's gone okay karen disappears in the thin air after that with crystal just completely gone um now crystal's not gone no no but she is she's never heard from again karen never again never again heard from where does crystal disappears crystal he's got crystal everything's fine so she went over and dropped her off and then was like fuck it you guys all have a great life yeah apparently just left she's like i can't take it anymore which doesn't seem like her she seems like she seems like she's really gonna go get her she's gonna get her kids if she wants her kids and she seems to want her kids you know what i'm saying it's one of those

things so the next day um he he tells uh fay calls him and says hey have you seen karen what the hell's going on i haven't seen karen and he says i saw her yesterday we had a daycare spat and then afterwards he says that after the daycare spat that he and uh the two of them took the two children shoe shopping oh so that's what ended up happening he said they they she followed him off they ended up meeting up and they argued for a while and then she said the kids needed new shoes you didn't give me money and he said so let's go shoe shopping now and took the kids shoe shopping and then at that point uh while they were shoe shopping karen asked him this is his story karen asked him for 150 and uh he said that he refused and wouldn't give her any more money

and that she left alone about 5 30 p.m she like stormed off and took off and that was that never saw her before that was never saw her again now the that's six days before the court hearing was set to take place for this whole thing. Yeah, for the child shit. So, as far as he knows, we went shoe shopping. Wouldn't give her money. She's pissed off and left, which doesn't sound like Karen. Sounds like Karen would not just march off without her kids. It's a hard thing to do.

Yeah, she just wouldn't do it, probably. Well, fine, you keep the kids and fuck you. You're not giving me my money. It just doesn't sound right. So, yeah, she's missing. no one blames migrant workers this time avocado tray no they never come up no one's checking juarez none of that shit's going on here but she is missing yeah this isn't a runaway child no this is an adult who has responsibilities and children who is not taking to the richie valens of his family picking on. Yeah, that's yeah, that's what she was.

She's asked. She had a girl. They named her Brenda. I mean, that's the way it works. Sorry. I had to get a deep cut La Bamba reference for you. A movie. I saw it eight million times as a kid.

Love that movie. No, my richie. Oh, God. My richie. So she's missing here uh this time goes by she disappears november 14th two months go by no karen she just is gone thin air that's it that's it 150 was the checkout point that was it couldn't take it anymore i ran away i don't care about my kids and i fuck this whole thing that 150 everything would have been fine now january 13th 1986 comes around and uh in this area this is in in outside of rayford uh this there's some workers uh bailing pine straw yeah

migrant workers whoa that sounds like a shit job guys go bail that pine straw i mean that that's the that's the general sounds like a great time see all that pine straw yeah you all to bail that don't you uh put it in bundles yeah wrap straw around it how about that do it all right that's a that's a job that hurts too yeah oh god the poke God. The poke in. Oh, my fucking God. It'd be all in your shoes. Oh, my God. I saw somebody doing that on a show one time. They had it sticking out of everywhere.

Just imagine the itchiness. Oh, no. You have to just stop and go, I need to scratch. You just lose your gut. I should have gone to college. Bathe me in turpentine. Can't take it anymore. This is near the McCainccain prison hospital yeah this is

uh in a in a just a woodsy area uh while they're bailing pine straw they discover uh what turns out to be a shallow grave yeah and uh in that grave they find a female body yeah the workers freak out obviously notify the sheriff's department and uh sheriff's department comes and uh you know they're looking around while they're all standing around in a circle because you know they make a perimeter yeah of something like this seal it off while they're doing that they stumble upon another shallow oh my god they stumble upon another one uh about 50 feet from the first grain oh goodness so they're like uh-oh um this is too many too close this is uh this isn't a this wasn't a civil war battle here

right was there like what what happened here uh so that's a little close and seems on purpose yeah uh so uh they find out this is another female body that they find here buried in a shallow grave. The bodies found here, it's about one mile from a house. That's the only thing. There's the prison, the hospital, and then there's the woods. And this is one mile from a house. And the property is owned by the homeowner here. And that is Edward Lee Cummings. Of course.

Owns the fucking house. This is his dilapidated shit shed and his property. So two bodies they find on it. So that's not good. That doesn't look good for old Eddie here. They're removed from the site here, obviously. They are brought in to Chapel Hill to a good medical examiner's facility, and they are identified as Karen and and theresa per year both of

them uh buried in there not great um yeah and it gets worse too autopsies perform performed on them show some pretty rough shit here uh both of them have been shot in the back of the head yep uh both of them had other gunshot wounds as well but back of of the head, through the skull. Shot a lot and the head? And the head. Both were naked. Both were wrapped in layers of black and clear plastic, like one after the other. Clearer than black, then clearer than black. And also cloth sheets.

Wow. Mummified. I was trying to mummify, I guess. I have no idea here. Now, the autopsy ofa revealed that she was in an advanced state of decomposition which makes sense because she's been missing for two years yeah she's been out for a while two and a half years here um she also had a second gunshot wound to the face yep there so and also the tips of her fingers were missing as well now uh she also had her right uh hand and arm were out and they said that uh

that might explain the absence of her fingertips they said it might have rotted off her animals could have chewed it off but then they don't think so because karen's fingertips are also missing oh that seems on purpose yeah it's probably not on purpose farm workers are vicious i'm telling you they're like fucking strawberries are hard to pick and they will kill you for that shit yeah it's crazy and they'll and they should the thing is too they're really criminal masterminds because they'll kill you and then they'll try to frame somebody else yeah well yeah they'll bury a right next to women right on your property right next to somebody that they know's house this is why we need the wall people jesus christ they come over

here they kill the women they bury them in our own yards bad hombres and then we get blamed for it what the fuck this is ridiculous yeah obviously we're fucking joking this is the silliest shit i've ever heard in my life so this is obviously a more uh nefarious thing than she ran away with some migrant farm workers so um now theresa's like i said her left hand there uh was the one that was exposed but the other karen both neither of her hands were exposed and theresa's other hand wasn't exposed either and that one also had missing some fingers yeah uh so cause of death being the gunshot wound to the back of the head

and they think the facial one was just a for shits and giggles for fun. Hey, yeah, I really don't like her. So I'm going to do this autopsy of Karen. Also, it showed that she was less decomposed. She'll be missing a couple months. The lower portion of her right arm was missing. Missing. Yeah. Poof.

That's the whole thing's gone. Yeah. Lower her lower portion of her right arm like elbow down isn't just not there okay and not and it's wrapped so it's not like an animal took it away or something like that it's just it's just gone oh boy uh just not there and there's also a three and a half inch uh uh three and a half inch cut like wound on her lower left abdomen as well so she's been stabbed yeah pretty viciously as well as shot in the back of the head uh they said that this uh this cut was inflicted post-mortem as well

more for funsies more for funsies this is just shit this is just fun here now uh we're fucking ridiculous now the cause of death uh was also gunshot wound to the back of her head so same thing so you know it's it's wow the extra mile in all of this yeah now they said that uh press is asking is there going to be an arrest do you know who did this and the police spokesman said there won't be an arrest for at least 48 hours and he released a few details here he said due to the fact that they were sisters it appears that uh they they meaning the murderer did have some knowledge of the family they were investigating someone but i am not a believer in making an arrest before uh making

absolutely sure you've got a case we're not going to make arrests for at least 48 hours so whoever did this you got 48 hours to run and you might want to dispose of some evidence as well yeah giving all that shit and haul balls rather than just going we have no idea it's super weird right we'll try to figure it out. I don't know. We got no leads. Just give fucking vague shit. Who cares?

Why don't you put specific time reference on things? So they do some investigation. They find some evidence linking to him. They find an SBI agent named Troy Hamlin says that a plastic trash bag found wrapped around Teresa's body had come from the same box of best pack good and tough trash bags that were seized in his house on that property. So it came from the same box. Unbelievable. So that's interesting. Also, this guy's a forensic chemist, by the way, which sounds like he would know that sort of shit.

How do you keep plastic bags around for two fucking years theresa's okay okay oh god bags from theresa's i thought you were saying both of them came from there no no no and then a uh he just he really keeps them yeah these are my dead girl bags next dead girl all right just got him at costco he's got a pal i got a lot one them buys like 6,000 bags in a box. You know, it lasts a while. That's why I get them. It'll last me six damn years. You know how it works here.

Now, he said that he, quote, matched the bottom portion of one of the bags from the grave site from Teresa to an open end of another garbage bag found in his home. So he matched where you tore them apart. He matched that. They matched right up. Yeah, that's, oof, boy. When they really want to find something matched where you tore them apart. He matched that. They matched right up. Yeah, that's, oof, boy. When they really want to find something, you can find something here.

Oh, boy. Now, he also says that plastic bags found wrapped around Karen's body also came from that same trash bag. So those were his girl-killing bags. It's his girl-wrapping. It's my girl-wrapping bags here. Some people keep their Christmas wraps

in a specific closet. He's got their Christmas wraps in a specific closet. He's got his girl wraps in his own closet. He could say, I didn't bring those there. I hire people to do work around here. They drop garbage, black yard bags. I don't know who put those here. Problem is, though, in his house, which is unoccupied and unfinished here, they also found a receipt from a big star supermarket listed for the purchase

of one item and that's the goddamn trash bags. Unbelievable. So he did keep the receipt. You know, for tax purposes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. He's a scumbag.

Right. But he did own a nightclub so he understands the power of write-offs and needing to have his taxes in order at the end of the year. Everything in order. It's, you know.

Organize it. Listen, he files quarterly. Yeah, he files quarterly the year. Have everything in order. Organize it. Listen, Clemens is like the goblin. Yeah, he files quarterly, Jimmy. He's got to really keep it together. You know what I mean? Come on. Who gives a fucking, a receipt for one thing? A dollar nine.

The one thing that also is incriminating is balls. That's the other thing. Not only is it just one thing, it's one thing that you definitely don't want to have the receipt for. You walk out of that place with that, they go, receipt? You go, no thanks. Shit one thing it's one thing that you definitely don't want to have the receipt for you walk out of that place with that they go receipt you go no thanks no it's all yours if you do if they put it in the bag you walk out light that bitch on fire and watch it fall into ashes as you get into your car or tuck it in a homeless man's pocket or some shit yeah here you go get your dna on this big guy hand him a fist rub your jizz on it i really think then i'll keep it and i'm a fistful of change with that receipt all yours pal enjoy your

lick it i don't give a shit please do get it the fuck out of my life get your fluids on it so and also not only that they found found Jerry Parsec here as well. Jerry Parsec is the general manager of the Fayetteville Big Star Grocery. And he testified that the receipts said that testified that this is a receipt for Best Pack Good and Tough Trash Bags. And they're categorized as non-food staple goods and sold for $1.09 on that particular day, just as the receipt said. And I rung him up because he was the only customer that day. It was that guy right fucking there.

Did I mention I really like to shoot? That's why they stood out. So I talked to him for a while. We exchanged information. I got his business card right here. He said he runs nightclubs, and if I needed some construction work done. Give me a gist sample, blood sample, blood sample hair sample stool sample that's not bad and he said you keep a copy of that receipt in case it comes up later as well would you put that in your files i'll put one in my files you put one on yours say that next time you get like a dollar right something get

like a pack of gum at 7-eleven and they offer you a receipt, go, tell you what, do two. Duplicate. One for me, you keep one for your files. Cool. Just to see the look on the person's face while they hold a receipt up, wondering if I filed. So you want it or not, dude? Does that mean yes? Yeah, but keep, I want you to file it too. That way there's no discrepancy.

If it ever comes up, we both know what we did. They'd be like, what are you talking about? You're buying Juicy Fruit, stupid. It's like when you go to the bakery you got a one guy one key one guy one yeah your receipt is your key it's a submarine we're gonna we both have to turn wow this is for uh the receipt the really important thing about the receipt not only is it important that it's for those bags and to him but the big thing is the date on the receipt is september 16th 1983 which is the day theresa disappeared oh no so uh that's pretty that doesn't look good no that looks real bad here uh on january 18th 1986 because like theresa's car is still missing or not theresa uh karen's car is

missing they just found her body right that's it James you're talking about sick three years he hung on to that receipt that receipt for three years in his house three fucking years that's how messy he is he probably just threw it down and just never cleaned ever for three fucking years three years a receipt

how happy are you if you're a homicide detective and you go in there and you're like there there's not going to be any evidence. No fucking way. In three years, he must have cleaned up. And it's like, oh, here's the garbage bags. Holy shit. This guy keeps...

You guys are not going to believe the date on this receipt. He's super, super financially diligent. That's the thing. Very funny. Fredericks, you're going to lose your fucking mind. Look at this. Look at this receipt. It's from three

years ago the day after she disappeared no no the day she disappeared the day of the day i'd light it right on fire right wouldn't you yeah come on yes fire so uh january 18th 1986 a parking lot attendant at the raleigh durham airport uh who had remembered the name of uh karen marie per year ends up bringing authorities to her car it had been parked at the airport since november he parked her car at the airport that's like a mobster thing to do they just park them at the airport so it looks like they ran away what year is this? 85, 86. This is the early 86. He said, when I was coming to work yesterday, I heard about the bodies being found.

When I heard the name, it just clicked. It was one of those odd names you don't forget. When I got here, I contacted the police, and the police contacted the car, confirmed that that was the car. It's Karen's car. And they said it had been parked there since November 15th. She was reported missing on November 18th. Oh, no.

So nobody reported her missing for three days, first of all. Did he hold onto that car for that long? Well, no. He put it there. And then he put it there like right when she went missing. Okay. That day, he dropped the car off. But then no one reported her missing for three days.

So there was no. There's no reason to look. She wasn't living with that. She was living by herself. Right. He had the car off, but then no one reported her missing for three days. So there was no... There's no reason to look. She wasn't living with that. She was living by herself. Right. He had the kids, so there was no like, oh, she didn't pick the kids up. Right. Nobody would call.

Three days of not showing up at work. Three days. That's what it takes of no call, no shows before people start checking airport parking lots for you. It's a shame. So the check of the car conducted by the motor vehicles uh division here they gave airport authorities uh no indication that raleigh police had even been looking for her car since november 18th they hadn't looked for her fucking car wow they never did a search they never put a thing out

saying hey if you see this car yep never put out a fucking thing to the you know that's insane there's a missing fucking person who was seen leaving in a in a in an argument with someone taking her kid right following him never seen again and they don't even do a fucking hey yeah keep your eye out not even the daycare center nothing like uh that was wild should we call somebody somebody? Dude, this is terrible fucking police work. Now, I understand that the reason this is is because she went missing in Hope County. And this is in a different county. And this is in Raleigh. And there's not computers like there were and blah, blah, blah.

But you put out a thing for the whole fucking state when there's a missing 22-year-old mother of two. You say, hey, just keep an eye out for this car, please. That's all. Nothing. Not even a fucking heads when there's a missing 22 year old mother of two right you say hey just keep an eye out for this car please that's all nothing not even a fucking heads up there um it was her car uh the the guy the guy who learned it was her car by the license plate number checked by the on the state's computers and uh the check alerts authorities only to the theft of the car the validity of the license plates and the status of the insurance, the validity of the license plates, and the status of the insurance. Not if, hey, missing person attached to this car. Now they have that.

They knew the status of the insurance? Yeah, yeah. Why the fuck am I carrying proof of insurance if they know the status? They knew it in 1985. Now they know it, yeah. Why are you making me fill my glove box with this shit? It's stupid. Because they want you to search through it.

Because then when you open your glove box, they can see in it, probably. Okay, probably true. That's probably the thing, yeah can see in it. Probably. I have probably true. It's probably. I assume that's why I've always just assumed that it's now on my phone. Jokes on you. Fuck. Yeah, there you go. Hold on a minute.

Let me look through this. Let me scroll through emails. You bunch of dicks. If I were you, Justin, because you get pulled over. You drive like an asshole. All the fucking time. So what I would do, make sure to keep pictures of giant syphilitic penises in your phone. So that way, when someone asks,

hold on, I've got to get through my pictures first. And just make sure you're showing this person the most disturbing, disgusting shit. Wait, I have to, hold on. Wait, here it is. Oh, no, wait, that's not it. That's a giant, disgusting syphilitic penis. I'm sorry.

I thought that was my proof of insurance. They look similar. Geico makes weird insurance cards nowadays. Looks like a syphilitic penis. I'm sorry. I thought that was my proof of insurance. They look similar. Geico makes weird insurance cards nowadays. Looks like a syphilitic penis. But sometimes there you go, officer. Yeah.

Anybody with a sense of humor would laugh at that. That's actually my agent's dick. I'm sorry. Hold on. We're real friendly. If I was a cop, I'd crack up laughing at that.

I'm sorry. You're like, that's pretty fucking funny. That's a good one. I'm sorry, officer. Now step out of the car. That's what you're like that's pretty fucking funny that's a good one i'm sorry officer now step out of the car that's what you're gonna get that's hilarious let's just step out of the car for me a couple of drinks tonight have a look see what's going on check it out uh yeah she said that besides that she said she knew this is a dmv person knew of no request by law enforcement authorities for additional information.

Wow. That is fucking absolutely bonkers, man. I don't even know what to say about that. The state's medical examiner said that Teresa was probably killed shortly after she was reporting missing. And also said that Karen had been dead for probably about two months. Which is when they fenced that's exactly when she disappeared um they she said uh they said also there are indications of sexual abuse as well on both of the young oh no i don't know how you could tell in a three-year-old two and a

half-year-old body if there was sexual abuse or not but maybe if it was wrapped in a certain way yeah you probably could if you're a scientist maybe just that i mean maybe there's karen's only been there for two months so i could see that there's still enough in there i don't know lingering i don't know but they said there was sexual assault as well on so this is fucking awful uh they were and they also conducted uh they were doing tests for hair fibers fingerprints and all that kind of shit on her car as well and um yeah it's crazy also on her apartment so they're talking about the evidence here obviously they're saying it's the same mo for both murders uh both sisters shot in the back of the head both naked when they're found both wrapped in layers of black and clear plastic and cloth sheets and similar shallow

graves located a mile from his house 50 feet from each other it's a pretty tight okay it's really hard to go hard to weasel out of that fucking coincidence i had no idea i had no idea on my own property it's not like he lives in a neighborhood where anybody could do this is in the middle of nowhere if someone just randomly dumped somebody it probably wouldn't be on the square two square acres this guy owns you know what i mean in the whole state of north carolina it's a pretty big coincidence here uh but also too extremities of both victims were removed uh fingertips and they they're saying that the half of karen's arm was removed on purpose here and uh they said this was probably in an effort to prevent ID of the bodies, I suppose. I don't know if he knows about dental records, but that's fine. And also, two women missing.

You could kind of put it together. They're sisters, you idiot. They're going to find out. Yeah, that's what I mean. They're going to find out here. So they're talking about this being the similar motives and also the way he did this, the post-mortem injuries. They're talking about that as an aggravating circumstance as well. Also the sexual assault.

He is indicted on February 20, 1986. Eddie is. He's obviously arrested here. He's indicted for the murders of both young ladies, and he immediately asks for the court to sever the cases. He doesn't want them to be tried as one, because it's obviously way worse when you add them both in can we sever these you know like a forearm you know like like right at the elbow can we do that please like a fingertip make them two hey come on so yeah it's a weird thing here he wants to sever them because obviously it

looks worse if you talk about two women being found in the same spot it's kind of a slam dunk right if you take them individually and don't talk about the other at all, it's different. Then there's plausible deniability. Sort of. Not really. But with this one, it's kind of hard to. But the problem is he doesn't realize that even though you can sever the cases, they can still bring up certain things from other cases. And if you get convicted of one, you can fucking bring that up

in the second trial. Yeah, if they introduce past crimes. You're really betting real hard on the early one. That's the problem here. So the judge, he says after careful deliberation, he says that they do sever the cases. He says,

quote, as I indicated to counsel, I believe when I heard the motion to sever these two cases, I issued an order to sever. They do show similar modus operandi and have a lot of similar factual matters, but I thought it was a very close case because of the two-year span of difference. There may be some question concerning whether or not there was a

transactional connection under the statute and the law in this case to warrant a joinder. That's why I severed them because he's saying legally if he didn't he's afraid that that it would have been considered uh appeal fodder basically because it was they're saying it's the same crime but it's happened two years two over two years apart so he's like i don't know if that's that's a stretch to say it's the same crime to say it's part of the same act so it it should be tried at the same time. Okay.

You know, it's not like they were sitting next to each other who shot them both in the head. That would be the same act, obviously. I mean, it's obviously whoever did it did fucking both. Probably. Or else they're really- They're buried the same way. The biggest coincidence in the history of mankind. That's unbelievable.

Wow. Amazing. Wow. Holy shit. Black, clear, black, clear. Both of them? Sheets? Both of them?

Holy shit. Get the fuck out of here. And I was burying this one. I tripped over that one. That's super weird. Strange. Who would have thought? I can't believe we did it.

Great minds think alike, huh? This is a good place. I thought it was a good place, too. Could you introduce me to them? We should be friends. All sorts of pine straw to put on top of them. Oh, shit. They bailed that.

Damn it. Also, he wants a change of venue here. They said that the judge says because of it's granted because of extensive media coverage which jesus christ i couldn't find a whole lot of it so it must have went away yeah uh here he said that it's he's tried there uh in uh new hanover county is where he's going to end up being tried right away there's challenges with certain things there this is you mix some small town shit these trials, and this sounds very like what small-town murder is all about here. One of them was a prospective juror by the last name of Walters.

Now, Cummings, the defendant here, he says that Walters indicated that he might be biased against Cummings in the event that the defendant offered no evidence like if he didn't testify that would bias him against him even if even the judge said legally you're not allowed to have bias against him for that he said it would still bias him if he doesn't testify and he also says that this uh juror walter says that well the other problem is i have a real i have a real close friendship with sheriff barrington who's on the state's witness list. So whatever he says, I'm going to believe him, basically. This is a guy that does not want jury duty. I have it in for him, and I'm buddies with the sheriff, so I don't know. But apparently, he's still one of the better candidates, apparently, because here they

show that he's a close friend. He's a supporter of Barrington. He donated money to his campaign to the sheriff and uh he also not only that he had knowledge of the case based on newspaper and television coverage and talking to the sheriff wow so he's already had the witness give him his testimony not under oath yeah outside my fucking brain just exploded you can't do that you can't and also cummings beat me in the turkey bake-off that's the other thing his recipe sucked my turkey was

better did i mention that i deep fried mine he barbecued mine wins hands down right everybody and the dog coming his dog beat my dog in the dog race this dog is ugly as fuck that's what's going on here goddamn labradoodles fucking novelty dog stupid thing and he puts a bandana around trying to make it cute like look at me i can catch a frisbee fuck him fuck his dog got it on with the bandana on its back like a fucking boy scout them labradoodles i don't know that novelty can't do shit can't do nothing okay take that dog hunting can't do shit can't make you sneeze that dog fuck that dog he asked me for body lotion this dog that's the kind of it's a weak

dog is what i'm saying body lotion he said a lavender i was like this ass dog just put turpentine on him and send him on his way now very flammable though so be careful no cigarettes no smoking around my dog so uh yeah he said that if the sheriff does get uh does get to come to to testify he's gonna believe everything he said sure so jesus christ man how do you where do you start with that that's that's as if we're talking about appeal fodder we're already there so then the court says quote is the judge if the court instruct how about just dismiss him right instead they're still trying to make it work still trying to make it work this judge has been married for 40 years they don't sleep in the same

bedroom like he's there he's gonna make it work he doesn't care if it's ridiculous and they hate each other and they haven't spoken in three years this is a desperate man who hasn't been late in 15 years and he's like look you've got 12 kids you've got aids i don't know i like your hair color grandkids are coming over on christmas so whatever we'll figure it out and just we'll make the holidays nice i don't know what the fuck to tell you so he says uh if the court instructed you that the defendant is presumed innocent in the trial of any case uh does that not, does not have to present evidence and has no burden of proof. And if he chose not to testify, the court instructed you not to hold that against him. Would you follow that instruction that I gave you in your deliberations?

And he said, yes, sir. If you told me not to hold it against him, I wouldn't. But he already said he would. That's the problem. You can say say what if i told you not to believe that right if someone is really believes in god and you said what if i told you not to believe in that even if they're a fucking judge that you can't they believe something you can't tell them they don't believe it now tell me not to believe a judge i won't believe it that's

what i mean it's not it's not possible he already said he has a bias you can't say what if i told you not to have a bias right no okay that's what a bias is it's there all right that's a judge that's like look i don't want to bring more people in here we're ran out of people right okay there's not a lot of people in this town uh so the juror then said that he could uh lay aside any preconceived opinions he may have as it may have he may be holding to the defendant's guilt or innocence and decide the case based entirely upon the evidence. So the judge said, all right, you're on the jury. You're hired. Wow.

Holy shit. He's a pizza restaurant hiring delivery guys. And the guy's like, you got a license? He's like, no. He's like, hmm. What if I told you to be real careful of the school zones what if i told you don't hit kids all right all right i think i could do that get out there boy out there i got two pizzas on your way let's go jesus christ so not only do they have you know like we described this crazy amount of

evidence of finding them on his property 50 feet from each other but then he had a some sort of uh scuffle is something that landed him in for in the county jail for two uh for a few days in late june and early july uh of uh 1985 here and while he was in there uh oh i'm sorry no this is june in july of 86 i totally i was like this makes no sense to me and i wrote it so she's not dead yet uh yeah no june and july of 86 he's in in the county jail and uh he's in with a guy named fred jacobs yeah cellmate and he tells fred jacobs uh basically that he killed karen's sister yeah because theresa because she left some drugs in the wrong place that he had given her to deliver that's his story oh that's, that's Fred. Fred Jacobs is a terrifying man. Yeah, Fred Jacobs.

He's got to tell him, I deal drugs and I fucking murder. He couldn't be like, I was pissed at my wife's little sister, so I killed her. And then my wife was, my girlfriend was kind of being a jerk, and so I killed her. Right. Yeah, so he had to be like, I run a cocaine ring, and I'm so cold-blooded if a 15-year-old girl fucks up a delivery, she ends up in a shallow fucking grave with a gunshot in the back of her head. I don't give a shit.

Missing half a fucking arm. You heard me? I don't care if you got biology homework. Fuck you. Get out there and deliver my cocaine. How fucking big is this guy? Fred's. I want to see this guy.

Yeah. I think, I think old Edwards really worried about his butthole right now. Edward got thrown in that cell and the guy goes what's your name boy uh cocaine running cowboy that's what they call me anyway cowboy lunatic i murder like a motherfucker well i beat eight murder cases already so this should be nothing so yeah he tells him that he killed them because of the drug thing. Yeah. But then there's also the problem is there is evidence. They find an actual the police find evidence of a black briefcase full of cocaine being found in a field in nearby Enfield. Just a black briefcase full to the brim of cocaine, which is, you don't find that in the woods often.

It's rare. You find like a penthouse or something when you're a kid in the woods. You don't find a briefcase full of cocaine. You might find a razor blade. Maybe. Or a mirror. You can find like an old beer bottle.

Use condoms, you're definitely going to find. You rarely find all the cocaine. Not all of it in the whole state. So yeah, that's something that they talked about. They also said that both had been killed by what they figured to be a small caliber weapon. Same, similar. The whole thing is very similar here. Now, both of them, when they were alive, had gone through conflicts with Edward, obviously, before their disappearance.

He accused one of killing his baby, and then he's been fighting with the other one, and she's been threatening to take him to court and everything else. Yeah. So they show that. Okay. Now, this is getting into I don't want to get into too complicated legal shit here, but they talk about how I'll read this. They said evidence of either offense is admissible on the issue of guilt if its only relevance is to show the character of the accused or his disposition to commit an offense of the nature of the one being charged. But if it tends to prove any other relevant fact, it will not be excluded merely because it shows him to have been guilty of an independent crime. So they're talking about introducing evidence from the other murder into the separate trials. Basically, they're saying you can under certain circumstances is basically what that means.

There's rules to it. There's rules to it. It's separate indictments. Like we said, he moves. He moves to get some severed and everything. Now, they elected first to try to try him for the murder of Karen. And so he moves to exclude any evidence of Teresa's and vice versa. The court disallowed that motion while concluding that the deaths were distinctly similar with respect to the victim's manner of death and manner of disposition of bodies and location of the bodies.

And that the evidence of Teresa's death was, quote, relevant to show the identity of the perpetrator of Karen's murder. Makes sense. So the state was allowed to introduce evidence of his attitude toward Teresa prior to her disappearance. The facts of her disappearance, the discovery of her remains near the site where Karen's body was discovered, the description of her remains. Basically, he's saying later on, he'll say they let allowed way too much in from the other cases. Also, they said that they'll show that they, they use the Fred Jacobs thing.

They go, Hey, he's mad at them anyway. And then Fred Jacobs says, you can also put in the cocaine thing, cheated them out of profits from drug at transactions. And, and Frederick Jacobs brings something else to the thing here.

He says, Fred Jacobs gets on the stand and says, Edward told me not only it was a cocaine, but also he has a, quote, general antagonism toward white and Indian women. Oh. I don't know where Indians came into this. Not the shit, man. But does not like white and Indian women women even though he has impregnated one of them doesn't like them now multiple times yes i feel like i mean you know it's one of those things where i don't like this because this is a north carolina case in the mid 80s where they

got a black guy killed two white girls and so right away they're gonna try to they're gonna try to put in there they're gonna try to slip that in there and he hates white women right like it's one of those things when you don't need that for this right yeah they're found right that extra sting is useless when they're found 50 feet away and buried the same fucking way they were strangers i'd say okay maybe that's relevant because that's how he feels. But they're not. It doesn't matter if they were purple, green, blue. He knew them and was mad at them. They didn't kill them because he doesn't like white ladies.

He didn't say, that Teresa smothered my baby and that pisses me off. But she's white and that really pisses me off. Now I'm going to fucking kill her. That's not what it was about at all. So I think that's kind of fucking silly to put that in there. But they're trying to. This is like the staircase when they're like, he was a bisexual. I think that's what the, you know, that's really try to pump it up.

Aaron Hernandez had tattoos depicting the crimes. It's just all. He's had a Peter in his mouth. Yeah. Oh, no. That's disgusting. Think about that. Think about that.

Think about you sitting in church with a Peter in your mouth. That ain't right, right? Jesus looking right down on you. Judging your cock breath. Just staring down at you. You know you got cock breath, too. As long as you was down there sucking, you must. So, yeah, they said that uh crime was a course of conduct if it is uh other crimes and

violences were part of the pattern of intentional acts directed toward the perpetration of such crimes of legal bullshit of killing fucking two people at once anyway uh yeah they bring into the morning of october 22nd they bring celia mansari the paralegal with the community services thing that she went to to talk about support. They bring her in there. By the way, during that, she tells Mansari about several occasions in which Edward had beaten her in the past and that he had threatened to kill her if she took the children back as well.

So, yeah, she was permitted to testify above just vigorous defense objections talking about it. They said that it was hearsay is what they were trying to do. But the prosecution successfully argued that it was the it's a hearsay exception. She heard it happening. No, no, no, no. She told Karen told this woman that it happened. But yeah, when a hearsay statement is made expressly admissible by a specific exemption category, there's no necessity for the trial court to consider.

Basically, the following are not excluded under the hearsay rule, even though the declarant is available as a witness. The existing mental, emotional, or physical condition, a statement of the declarant's then existing state of mind emotion. Basically, how was she feeling? If it's a thing like that, she said this, then existing state of mind, emotion. Basically, how was she feeling? If it's a thing like that, she said this,

it's relevant to her emotional state. Got it. Not so much the factual, uh, factual truthfulness of her statement, but of her emotional state, her emotional state was she was in fear of Edward. And then she disappeared and was found in his yard.

So those all go together basically here. Uh, the scope here was evidence tending to show that the state of mind is admissible as long as the declarant state of mind is relevant. That's what it is. Now, November 14th, 85, Karen spoke with Krendi Lynn, who is a teacher at the nursery school attended by Crystal and Little Eddie. during the discussion karen told uh krendy lynn that she had to go to the doctor because she quote uh because quote she had a place on her chest that she had to see a doctor about that he had hit her with the end of a gun oh my god so this happened november 14th 85 so it's a it just happened yeah apparently and then the last had to be 24 hours if she was just going to go to the doctor to get it checked out it it couldn't happen six months ago.

So, yeah, he had just hit her with the butt end of a gun recently, apparently. The court allowed her to testify over the objections here. However, she was not allowed to speculate as to the identity. She was only allowed to say that Karen said he that uh karen said he did this she wasn't allowed to say who right yeah because that wasn't brought up because it was they knew who they were talking about but there was it was in the middle of a conversation about him exactly and that's okay yeah so also faye gets to testify the mother over objection regarding the subject of two conversations with sharon for with Karen.

The first conversation was in May or June 85 when Karen came over to the house crying, saying that saying that he had kicked her out of the house with the two kids. That's when she moved to Raleigh. And so they said this. She had to be so embarrassed in this fucking. Oh, God. Yeah. As they went over to foster care and then your kid relationship with him oh yeah

oh yeah so you allowed this to yeah that's what i mean that poor woman i mean granted that that part sucks yeah you allowed that's no good because i mean i feel bad for this both her kids are fucking daughters are dead man that's brutal she's got to go through the whether she had a whether it was partially her you know facilitation of i don't want to say fault. It was in her universe, her purview. Her rotation. It sucks. It's just a fuck. God, it's so shitty.

Losing your kids is losing your kids. It's awful. Yeah, so it's bad here. So then also, like we said, Fred Jacobs. Fred Jacobs says that he said he killed the sisters because, quote, they had ripped him off on a cocaine deal. He then testifies on his own behalf imagine this fucking moron gotta be awesome well then why were they in your yard right i don't

know why don't you tell me why i had all the trash bags is this your receipt dipshit he denied knowing anything about theresa's disappearance whatsoever in the theresa trial because this is when the bag thing came up because we're kind of condensing both trials into one. We're going to go over two separate trials with you guys. It'll be a four-hour show. So he says he also denied buying the trash bags or ever seeing the trash bags in his house. Yeah.

I don't know where those, they've been there for three years, never laid an eye on them. Yeah. What about this receipt? Must have came with the bags. I don't know. Weird, right? Holy shit. These migrant farm workers, I'll tell migrant farm workers i'll tell you what i'll tell you what now they run away with teenage

girls leaving trash bags with receipts all over my damn house this is ridiculous man and then come back and put them on your property yeah i mean they took her so many years ago and then put her on my property that's see what happens and then get her sister put her here too they put her sister right next to her believable it's ridiculous why didn't he just put them right next to each other if you put them 50 feet apart of each other for christ's sake i'll put them apart case they find that one i'll never find that one over there i figure they'll just think there's one and then not look literally fucking idiot not on both other sides of the property or you know something or how about not in your yard how about i mean the obvious part is don't murder two girls don't murder two girls a first of all but if you'd have murdered two girls and you're standing over their corpses

you know what north carolina has a lot of woods you know what's there nobody doing anything just fucking stuff no people none instead he's like what about in my yard that's fine they'll never find it here what are you re-drumming uh yeah yeah perry i'm next to my mom my mother-in-law's out there all my dead cowboys jesus christ so he argues here also that this is the defense argues that evidence of an unstable and volatile relationship between himself and theresa was sufficient to allow jurors to infer that her death was caused by an unpremeditated or non-deliberated killing he's saying look we hated each other so it just could have got out of hand and i just killed her on a whim clearly it was a hasty murder obviously

not the burial that was pretty uh yeah although there was evidence that uh he and teresa disliked each other which is true but you combine it with all the other shit and that really doesn't hold any water that he would just decide it out of nowhere poof to to do that because then he would have to cover it up and all that kind of shit uh physical evidence here also he tries to keep out the testimony of the agent Troy Hamlin, who's the forensic chemist there, to compare physical evidence to evidence which had been misplaced. This is the problem.

The state fucked this up bad. This is so bad shit here. Okay. Been misplaced from the lab where it was sent for testing and storage pending trial. The evidence, some of this evidence, was the plastic bags and sheets in which the bodies were wrapped and discovered. Very important shit there. What they ended up doing, the odor of them was so intense that they were moved several times inside the lab when people complained about them. Finally, Jimmy, yeah finally they were

placed in an outdoor shed oh my god it's fucking murder trial evidence you don't put it outside like it's an old paint can it's a that's fucking evidence how is that not bagged up and like sealed so that smell doesn't release what i'm saying how is that not a technology things like that they keep it in paper bags because otherwise the condensation will ruin the trace evidence. So it's kept in paper bags. It might stink, but you can keep it in a fucking something. Can you put it in a box?

How about deal with it? You're in a fucking crime lab. You have gross stuff around. There's tissue and disgusting shit. You don't like it? Help me accelerate and get this asshole in prison so we can get this shit out of here just put it out in the shed with the lawn chairs and the paint cans that we don't give a shit about put it out there now the christmas right next to the christmas decorations next to the reindeer holy fucking

shit in its location uh that the uh and in that location it all disappeared weird the sheets the plastic bag just just disappeared. Somebody threw them the fuck out or something. These stink and threw them out. Or a raccoon took it. Or a raccoon. It was like, this smells delicious. Exactly.

Who the hell knows? So the evidence was lost. So basically, and this is rightfully so, I think, Edward says that he is denied the opportunity to have his own experts test this material because they lost it. And he wanted to argue the dissimilarity he wanted to say they weren't the same wrappings and they weren't what are you going to say someone else seriously wrapped these two

girls i wrapped one up like this but then the other one someone else wrapped it in a very similar way but with different plastic bags that they probably don't have a receipt for like me 50 feet away 50 feet away on my property. Jesus Christ. Here's a question. When he buried the first daughter there, was his family

living in that house the other time? No, no, no. No one lived in that house. He bought it and never finished it. This was like his go somewhere

to be a gross pet. It's not the Willow Springs shit. No, no, no. The Willow Springs was the family home. That was a different thing here. Well, by then it was nobody's. It was just him living there. So so uh yeah he wanted to do that so he alleges that his

constitutional rights are being to do process are being violated and uh the uh court went no you're good they're all right it's fine uh he sorry you can't test it i mean yeah go check us check a raccoon's ass i mean it's probably in there somewhere. It's impacted in there. You got to watch out. It's like tobacco shit. So this agent here, they talked about what he had observed before this evidence disappeared. He said the plastic bag and sheets on the day they were photographed and at the various times they were moved prior to disappearing from the storage shed.

He said he identified the photographs. He explained the disappearance of the materials to the jury he then noticed the similarity of the missing items to the ones on on hand found in karen per uh per year's car when he was asked the following questions this is how this worked says can you describe this is a law the prosecutor can you describe the sheets and pillowcases that you saw on the trunk of the vehicle, sir? Trunk of her car. This is where he got this shit. Yes, sir, I can. There were three pillowcases, a fitted flowered sheet, and a pink fitted sheet.

Now, Mr. Hamlin, did you make any observations about the flowered sheet that you saw there and the flowered sheet which you saw from the wrappings of the body of Karen Puryear? And they objected. And he said, it was overruled. He said they were somewhat similar in design, that is, they were both flowered sheets, had the same type of color. So they go from there. Then they say, can you explain what it meant

how the bag is unusual and how it compared to the bag which you observed in the wrappings? And he said, the bag I noted earlier during the day at the gymnasium floor, where they had everything lined out, was a very large, clear plastic bag. It was a bag as opposed to the plastic sheeting in that you could see a flap and seams around the edges of the bag. So he does all of this.

He testifies. He doesn't testify as an expert, though. It's a non-expert testimony, even though he's a chemist. So his testimony was based on his knowledge. Obviously, Edward is pissed off that this got in. Now, also, there's photos and a couple other pieces of evidence they found. Now, State introduces, number one, photos that you can divide into groups here. One is 23 photographs of the graves and autopsies of Karen and Teresa.

That's a lot. Okay. 23 is a lot, but there's two of them. So, uh, two is photographs that they found in his home belonging to him of women acquaintances posing nude for him.

What? Uh, so they introduced that as well. Uh, they also introduced into evidence his, uh, a book of his that he has labeled, uh, his believe it or not book

oh boy is what it's called chick city fucked his conquest book it is a book a notebook containing the names of 112 women uh according to his testimony are his former sexual partners wow so he has documented in a quote believe it or not not, is what he's called it. How old are you, sir? Yeah, I'm a write her name down. Oh, my God. Wow. I won't be able to remember this. Jesus.

Believe it or not. Believe it or not. All right. Somebody had sex with me. Jesus Christ. 112 somebodies. Oh, my God. Documentation.

Names and addresses? Phone numbers? What kind of documentation? Just names? I don't know. A little note on them? Nice titties. I don't know.

Huge bush. Love a big bush. Love a big bush. That was it. I'm not sure. So, Jesus Christ. They had one photograph of Teresa's grave. They fed three photographs of Teresa's grave to illustrate the testimony of one of the doctors who supervised the removal of her body.

Three photographs of Teresa's body wrapped in layers of plastic and a cloth sheet to illustrate the other testimony. And two photographs of Teresa's body during autopsy for that. Also, photographs were omitted concerning Karen's murder. Five photographs of her grave. Other photographs of her body were pre-removal and then photographs uh during the autopsy to show that condition as well uh during the trial prosecutors attempted to portray him as a sexually promiscuous married man who would keep detailed records of sexual conquests and pictures and basically he's ain't a creep in a pervert right you don't even need that no that's the thing i don't so far that's me he

don't like white woman and he's a he doesn't they wanted they want him to be portrayed as this perverted black dude who likes fucking white women but hates wants to have sex with them but wants to kill white woman doesn't that scare you rather than just say they were found in his fucking yard 50 feet apart all right goodbye all right have a good one night this is what i mean you don't have to do this you don't have they're so used to having to try to push that down there that they don't even even when they don't they do it anyway yeah that's annoying as fuck you don't get don't make him sympathetic at all right in this particular situation he's a piece of shit, this guy. So one of the state's witnesses testified that she and her cousin moved into his home as live-in babysitters after Karen disappeared.

So Karen disappeared, and then he gets two female cousins. This parenting shit is hard. Yeah. This witness also testified that she had sex with him. Oh, my God. And that he asked both her and her cousin to post nude for photographs. Yeah. He testified, or this witness also testified, that she had sex with him. Oh, my God. And that he asked both her and her cousin to post nude for photographs. Jesus. He was building a homemade threesome also on his own little thing here.

That's gross. Yeah, I would say. Well, I mean, he's having a good time with this whole thing. To have a threesome with them, though, that's fucking incest. Well, it's a fivesome because there's two dead girls in the yard. So it's really getting gross now. So you got the two cousins and the two sisters two cousins two sisters really going hard today it's fucking ridiculous uh during his cross-examination the state sought to introduce evidence of photographs of more nude or partially nude women including photographs of karen partially

nude the photographs were discovered by police during a search uh he uh they they argued that the photographs were uh irrelevant and prejudicial uh the judge sent the jury out of the courtroom and said let me take a peek at those let's see how prejudicial they are how nude are they and so uh take these back to my chambers for a minute make some judgments yeah i'm gonna make a couple of judges nobody nobody come in my the door will be locked. Not a single knock. If I hear a knock, I'll start over. Yeah, absolutely. These are not the dead person photos.

These are live naked women. That's why. So the judge hears the arguments and ends up denying the motion to exclude them. During questioning by the prosecutor, Edward identified the women in the photographs and he said that he took pictures of the nude women himself. Because they said, did you take these, or did you take them somewhere?

Also, the prosecutor had three witnesses talk about an assault committed by him in 1963, and they elicit testimony from witnesses. The problem is you can't bring in old cases, but you can because just before that, the defense had elicited testimony from other witnesses of whether they've ever known him to be a violent person. Once you say, do you know him to be a violent person? Oh, well, if they got to say, I'll bring people up who do know him as a violent person. You open the whole thing up, and that's what they did. Idiots. So they bring in an assault from 1963 that they can go all over now because of that um yeah and they said he said

that uh he tried to argue that it was so long ago it doesn't matter anymore and they said no it matters he did it fuck you uh so yeah uh another also he said fred jacobs there uh said that they ripped him off on a cocaine deal that was part of their whole part of their whole deal um but the one of the things is that the drug deal had been motivation between behind the murders they're over two years apart so it's not like he killed one and then like let the other one percolate for a minute yeah and then let her try to work it off and then when she yeah she crawfishes on a deal yeah she craw she crawfished them. Now, in the closing argument, the prosecutor said, quote, the defendant has been shown to have what could be fairly described as an unusual and unnatural interest in photographs of nude young women. None of that matters.

Do you think it was just a coincidence that the bodies of both girls have been stripped naked? Oh, no. Or was it calculation by the defendants? And now they're trying to say it was like a weird sexual thing. That's a thing. Which it may have been. It doesn't matter. But they're in his property.

He's got a receipt for the bags that they're wrapped in. Can we not talk about what? Done and fucking done. End of story. Don't make it worse. That's it. Don't sound like assholes. She also argued that the jury, that the defendant here, quote, seems to have a very warped attitude

towards women which is true but also unnecessary given his attitude how do you think edward lee cummings would have felt about a woman like karen taking him to court for child support and who disappeared six days before the court date of that non-support charge coincidence or the motive for cold-blooded murder that's literally her quote coincidence or the motive for cold-blooded you know she turned around for emphasis it's like this prosecutor watched perry mason and took her whole her whole strategy based on tv lawyers that's what it sounds like yeah that's kind of how it's yeah calm down bitch you don't got to do this you have tons of evidence it's really obvious

that he killed her it's enough and he told people he killed her that's enough don't say he's a pervert on top of it so uh jailhouse confession jesus verdict comes in guilty yeah not shocking uh the the penalty phase though they want the death penalty on this one obviously uh so he requested uh there's uh following mitigating circumstances be submitted to the jury is what edward suggests. One, he has no significant prior criminal history. He doesn't murder anybody or anything. He has no significant history of prior criminal activity, which seemed like the same thing. And he

did say that he's a major coke dealer and he's got assaults, so I don't know. The defendant prior to this homicide had no significant history of violent conduct. I guess assaults don't count. He also has a history of being gainfully employed. Okay, that's fine.

Lots of people are... Jeffrey Dahmer had a job. He worked at the chocolate factory all the time. And then he went out at night and killed fucking 15-year-old boys. Casey was a fucking manager of a Kentucky Fried Chicken chain.

Manager. He owned fucking Kentucky Fried Chickens. He was a franchisee. He was a franchisee. He owned a construction company. He was a hustler, Jane. He was a manager. He owned fucking Kentucky Fried Chickens. He was a franchisee. Oh, so he bought in. Right, right, right. He was a franchisee. He owned a construction company. That's right.

Yeah, that's it. He was a hustler, dude. Right, right. Casey had a great work ethic. He hired these kids. Great work ethic. That's why he had so many bodies. Yeah.

If he was lazier, he would have killed like two kids. But he was such a good worker, he killed so many. That's the problem. You're too good a worker. You want your serial killers to be a little lazy. Ted Bundy wanted to be a fucking senator. Yeah, that's the problem you're too good a worker you want your serial killers to be a little lazy ted bundy wanted to be a fucking senator that's what i mean he would have been perfect sounds like so good at christ i he'd have been uh right now he could be there so anyway the the uh could have been a kennedy well no he was a republican uh he was. Yeah. He was not a Democrat. Dumping whores off bridges.

He hated the Kennedys. Yeah. Well, the Kennedys just did that with a plum, whereas the Republicans would say they were going to church, instead going to a prostitute and dropping her off a bridge. It's a different thing. Whereas the Kennedys are like, I'm going to go out drinking and meet some ladies. See you. And then they go out.

Some whores. Yeah. They weren't trying to be. No, they weren't hiding it. Exactly. Which is what I like better. So anyway. I'm'm gonna go to church and pray about this later later apologize we'll talk well i won't admit it but as long as there's wine in my head yeah jesus christ so he's gainfully employed also he's been a he has a history of being a conscientious and good worker

okay doesn't matter he's a good shallow gravedigger too. He's been a loving father to his children. Terrific. He has a reputation with his employers of being trustworthy. Great. That's wonderful. Hopefully he won't kill any of them. Let him around your daughters.

Yeah. Let him hang out with your daughters. There was an extenuating, they're saying this is his version of a mitigation. There was an extenuating relationship between the defendant and the victim, and in that it was a domestic relationship and possible child custody dispute. So he's saying, you know, we knew each other real well,

so obviously she could just make me mad. It wasn't like I just go around killing women willy-nilly. That's how she could make me so mad, because she knew specific shit. She really pissed me off. She knows my triggers. She knows how it works. She knows what it is. Yeah, mad, because she knew specific shit. She really pissed me off. She knows my triggers. She knows how it works. She knows what it is.

Yeah, so, Jesus fucking Christ, man. So, the trial court verbally listed some of the remaining requested circumstances during its charge here and explained what the jury could consider under the mitigating circumstances, because they have the statutory mitigators, non-statutory. The statutory are like legal mitigators. Non-statutory are like, you know, he's a good worker. It's a non-statutory mitigator. There's nothing in there that, in the law that says,

if the defendant's a good worker, he shall not be put to death. Like, that doesn't say it. Whereas if he's, you know, disabled or not disabled, but mentally, whatever. So anyway, yeah. Sentencing comes back with the jury comes back voting for death. So now it's up to the judge whether they're going to implement that or not. I don't know how you could really have mercy, much mercy for this guy.

I got zero. Yeah. The judge says you, sir, may fuck off death penalty for you there. He does get the death penalty he appeals here his appeals are on a few things we'll go over the appeal real quick here the evidence of the murder because it's got an interesting outcome the he talks about the inflammatory photographs uh but he's talking about the photographs of other women he's like that was just trying to fame my character here yeah they said photographs of the homicide victim he's like that was just trying to fame my character here yeah

they said photographs of the homicide victim may be introduced even if they're gory uh you know that's obvious uh but the use of photographs have that have inflammatory potential is excessive or repetitious repetitious the probative value of such evidence is eclipsed by its tendency to prejudice the jury as we know here we've talked about here, but they let him in. They let in the trial court must consider the totality of circumstances, such as what a photograph depicts, its level of detail and scale, whether it's color or black and white, a slide or a print, how much it's how it's projected or presented in the scope and clarity of the testimony. It's the whole picture. It's not just the photo that you're looking at it's the whole surrounding thing here uh so they talk about a couple other cases that they reference here uh that support him uh they say unlike those cases

where photographs had no probative value with respect to any issue these photographs were used to illustrate uh the testimony of the doctors and and the other ones that they got in, that they let in, the ones of the other women. They just say that was a harmless error, basically. A lot of times in these appeals, you'll say, we find this, you'll read, we find this error harmless. They call it harmless error. It didn't cause the jury to make a decision.

Well, the other point is, if I'm him, I would use that as something for my side. Look, there's a bunch of women that I've been involved with. Didn't murder any of them. Yeah, I have pictures of them not murdered. I clearly didn't murder those women either. Yeah, you could say that. I have fucked 112 women. Why would I hurt those women?

Then take that as your strategy. That's the thing, yeah. They said that he told Fred that he took her arm off, basically. uh he said he told fred that he took her took her arm off basically i mean he told her about that yeah he told tale that only that guy would know yeah he told fred that that he took her arm off uh now he says the other the dirty photographs here they said that uh uh just fucking ridiculous that you would imagine being imagine you went out with a guy 10 years ago and you let him take a fucking nude picture of you and now a judge is looking at it in court to see whether you're gonna let everyone see it like what the fuck dude i have nothing i didn't kill

this lady you're looking nude pictures of me i'd be pissed if i these were my nude pictures so you don't do this shit yeah absolutely uh married. Unless you're married. Fuck yeah. So they said there's no connection between the crime in which he was accused and the evidence of his sexuality. The case he cited in his appeal was a case where they used pictures to say that a guy was gay to say that his gayness made him angry about this and kill that okay so they're saying this is not the same case at all that's a very specific thing here so uh yeah they said at the at the time the pictures were introduced here there'd been already been evidence of his sexual exploits and the fact that he asked two women to pose nude for photographs that's why that came up is because those that one of the cousins said he asked him. So they said they can't say the trial judge abused his discretion by letting him in. Also here, they say that the course, the murder for which he stands convicted is part of a course of conduct in which he engaged, which was included the commission of the other crimes and violence against other person or persons here.

This is talking because he was saying there wasn't enough evidence in one of his things so he said no the judge said obviously there's enough evidence and went through the whole thing of they're the same deal the victims are fucking bound the same way blah blah blah blah blah blah all that shit uh they do say there's no credible evidence to suggest at the time he killed teresa that he had a mind that he had in mind a plan or scheme or or design which involved the death of Karen two years later so that's one thing they do say they use that as an aggravator oh that's an aggravator on the death sentence was the fact that this was like all part of a scheme of he was going to kill both of them so it's really hard to say that he killed Teresa

in 83 and then said I'll kill Karen two years later because I'm pissed at Teresa it's really hard to say that he killed theresa in 83 and then said i'll kill karen two years later because i'm pissed at theresa it's all part of one thing shouldn't the aggravator be the uh the the disposal of the body uh you know what i mean that's isn't that an excessive uh yeah excessive uh abuse of right abuse of the corpse all that shit but this is not even considered that because he could say i didn't know they were dead. I was making sure. I was just getting the job done. So during the closing here, the prosecutor had suggested that he killed Teresa out of anger for the death of her son. She suggested that he killed Karen out of concern that she would take custody of her children away and having sworn out the warrant. So the court says, quote, the ugly reality of this is this defendant brutally murdered two sisters two years apart for reasons we may never know as much as we deplore his actions

the state has not demonstrated that these acts of violence were tied together in such a way as to permit the trial judge to submit to the the course of uh conduct of aggravating circumstance for the jury's consideration therefore hold the trial judge aired by allowing the jury to consider aggravation of the murder for which he was convicted and so they end up finding no guilt in the guilt no error in the guilt or innocence phase but error in the sentencing phase and he is remanded for new capital sentencing proceedings okay death penalty squashed that's fine uh totally squashed as long as we're just sentencing over again and least, okay. Death penalty squashed. That's fine. Totally squashed out. As long as we're just sentencing over again and not redoing a whole fucking trial.

Yeah, not doing a trial again. It is sentenced. And finally, in August of 2001, he is given two life sentences with no parole instead. I'll take it. He is currently alive. Really? In prison.

He's 79 years old wow 79 is going to be 80 in may i'm gonna be 80 in may he's in heartnet uh correctional institution no i think it's in is that in north carolina i guess so uh yeah he's uh let's see here he's in regular population medium classification so i guess that's the security level is medium um yeah he's in there for life i mean he's 80 years old he's going around jacking people you could put him in low at this point it doesn't matter yeah his next his next custody review is in april i don't think that's for parole i think that's just for where they're housing him where they're keeping him

where they're housing him see if he should be in regular population and uh theresa though uh theresa finally got a nice uh real burial right she's a really nice headstone that was really sweet there's it looks good uh she was buried in uh in raleigh memorial park uh in in raleigh there she's a child in the garden of meditation very nice it's a nice plot it's fucking poor kid deserved better than that yeah they do this is just horrible what do they do with uh karen did she karen's buried too but i couldn't find her exact grave i don't know if she got cremated or what i don't know if she's buried or cremated whereas karen i found her or theresa i

found her actual grave and uh yeah this is this is one of those cases where he's a piece of garbage this guy is a complete piece of garbage he's a predator yeah who you know gets a young girl who's the daughter of a girl i mean it's just disgusting the whole thing scummy the whole his whole life his whole life is scummy they had a horrible a tough time faye had it rough i mean she's trying to raise these kids yeah the kids are in and out of foster care they come this is a just a rough ending to all this prey he found easy prey. He found easy prey. It's what it was. He found an easy household where loosey-goosey rules. Everything was, you know, kind of for the taking, obviously. And then he does this.

And then when they arrest him, it's all great that they arrested him and everything. They had to try and fucking try him like it's to kill a mockingbird. What the fuck are we doing? Yeah, take it easy. Try him on the evidence. Don't talk about i why bring up well he told me you don't like white and indian women who gives a fuck who cares who cares are you is he up for a hate crime no then shut up what difference does it make it's what he's not

it wasn't like they had everybody talked about all day he just he had a t-shirt said i hate white women i don't know it was weird like that's what happened. One guy said that he said it once in passing out of everyone he's ever known. And they were like, that's the key. Hates white women. Wants to kill them all. That's stupid because that makes it look terrible. Don't you have any? Do you want it to look like it's on the up and up?

There's evidence coming out of the ass of these people. Impacted. That's the point, though. You've got to be able to have something do do taxpayers a favor have a slam fucking dunk or at least find the evidence and and yeah you had evidence who gives a shit about the rest evidence pouring out of your ass why do you try to make it filthy you're giving it opportunities to to i mean be brought back i guess it's like if you're in a football game and even if you're up 41 nothing and if they're if that defensive line isn't holding up well you're gonna keep giving the

ball a running back and keep scoring touchdowns i guess it's one of those things i don't know if that's what it is is it a instinct from a prosecutor that they have to try to run up the run the score up see how high because you never know right because i mean that is true you never know the trial and if you don't take it far enough and they acquit him that's it you can't try him again so but they did have two separate trials either way he wasn't going away he was going away for life he's gonna get caught i just i don't like that i don't i think it was a stupid way to go about it and it may and i think in appeal it hurt them i really do you can say the photographs that was just about the photographs but i really really fucking think that the photographs mixed with

the rest of that shit that made the photographs worse the photographs themselves to me uh the outside photographs the dirty ones yeah the ones of the girls that he slept with the fucking ripley's believe it or not that's silly why talk about it yeah what does it matter it is and then of course the aggravating circumstance was obviously that's something not in a drug deal for over two years that's a silly thing to do so you fucking mutilation of a was obviously that's something not in a drug deal for over two years that's a silly thing to do so you fucking mutilation of a corpse that's crazy they wanted the death penalty too bad on that one too i get that you wanted it but they were salivating take two life sentences and fucking all these women yeah shit this shit can this fuck they

wanted to say i killed that son of a i hate and white women but fucking them and taking pictures of them i had them killed. So whatever. Who cares? That's just prosecutors back then to their, I guess, their base. I don't know. I don't know that county. I don't even know what that is. Who knows? Who knows?

Well, if you know, you can tell us about it. Do that. Tell us everything. Give us a review. Apple podcast. That purple icon. Give us five stars. Tell us all about it.

Tell us you're following instructions, following directions. It's dark in here and I'm scared. Help me. Doesn't matter what you say. Just do that. Also, head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. So much new merchandise up there, guys. Everything really cool stuff to a lot of new stuff.

Sarah's been working hard on these designs and she's coming up with some beauties. So check those out right now. Also, all of your crime and sports stuff, listen to Crime and Sports if you haven't. I mean, we give you advice. We tell you things, whether it's funny or not. You watch shows that we tell you to watch. That's better than anything else we've told you to watch or listen to, Crime and Sports. Check it out.

It's awesome. It is our baby, and we love it. And the four-year anniversary is coming up here in a couple weeks. I can't believe it. Come check it out it's awesome it is our baby and we love it and our the four-year anniversary is coming up here in a couple weeks so come check that out also tickets to live shows do that get your tickets denver and salt lake city are sold out but february 15th and 16th in indianapolis and louisville will be there the 16th in louisville is our four-year podcast anniversary started crime and sports so that's going to be a party that night. We're going to celebrate. Come out and celebrate with us.

San Francisco in March. Also Detroit and Cincinnati in March. And just in case you've been wondering, like, oh, I don't know how live shows are. I see people tweet. Have you been to a live podcast? Is it any good? Our live show,

don't take anybody else's live show. Right. Live podcasts are... I'm not going to... Yeah. They suck a lot of the time. They're not great. I'm not going to call anybody'm not gonna yeah they suck a lot of the time i'm not gonna call anybody out but i've heard a lot of shit where people just kind of fucking mail it in they mail it and they get there the podcasters get there and it's like everyone's

just happy that we're all in the same room together for them so i don't have to give you a real show we can just hang out and bullshit and do the thing that we do and give you a couple catchphrases and just what that's what a lot of podcasts do that is not how we look at that at all when you go see us live it's not just us jerking off no it's a case yeah it's a show that you've never heard before with tons of pictures and it you sit down and it is it's the case from then till the end of the show we have a great time the last slide is then this happened then that happened good night everybody it's a it's no dicking around you're hearing a show except way tighter because it's in front of people so you we want you to be laughing the whole time so it's a comedy show that we happen to put a murder and slides into and we have a

great time and meeting you guys is the is really the part that i kind of take away from this oh we love it as the bonus because we we hear from you as much as we do and then seeing your faces and putting faces to names yeah it's really awesome i like seeing it no it's true but know that we don't mail this shit in no we don't mail it in it is a goddamn comedy show period it's not a it's not a just a hey meet and greet we're all happy to be here right we want you to walk out in pain from laughing. I want you to leave and go, I'm going to go see them again. Exactly. The show that I saw last time wasn't that great, but these guys did a great job. That's right.

We want to give you the best show that we can. And that's what we notice is so many people return. We always get people that come back. I came back and I brought four more people because they need to see it. That's our goal for you guys. We don't want your money once. We want your money every year when we come back to your city. We want you to be like, I have to see that because that's a fun night guaranteed.

So please buy your tickets and do that. Also, if you want to be a hero to the show, follow us on social media first, too. At Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Small Town Murder on Instagram there. That way you get all the latest updates in case there's new cities, new dates announced on the tour. Because every once in a while we'll throw another show in there. You'll get that information first, so follow it there. You can do that. Also, if you want to be, like I said, our hero, like one of these people we're going to talk about in a minute.

You want to join that club? Yeah. Because you turn it off and you go, oh, I'm not one of those people. Would you like to be one of these people we're going to talk about in a minute. You want to join that club? Yeah. Because you turn it off and you go, oh, I'm not one of those people. Would you like to be one of those people? You can do it very easily by going to patreon.com slash crime in sports and make a donation there. Or you can go to PayPal and make a one-time donation using our email, which is crime in sports at gmail.com. And last week we did a Patreon episode of Small Town Murder Murder and we're going to be doing lots more Patreon episodes so do that. Those are at the

$5 and above level or whatever. Yeah, we run them a little shorter, a little tighter and we'll have a little more fun. Yeah, it's just a crazy little thing. Shoot from the hip. We shoot from the hip a little bit. It's a good time. Check those out though. We have a really good time on those shows and we have a little variety too. We'll do a prisoner dating game once in a while, that sort of shit.

Check that out. But I don't want to even hear it anymore. I don't want to hear my own voice. All I want to hear is the names of the damn people who I enjoy the most. Tell me our heroes, Jimmy. Who are they?

This week's executive producers are Tana Flowers, Yuval Dom, Catherine Murray, Amanda Rutherford, Tanya Volanek, again, thank you. Tanya comes through every week.

It's pretty fucking incredible. Steven Rude coming through again. Thanks, Steven. Karen Porcello, Shanna Brazelton, and Erica Anderson. Thank you so much. She said something really fucking sweet to us and sent us a nice donation. I don't want to say why, but she did very sweet. Thank you.

Well, thank you. Patricia Alberts. And then happy birthday to Jordan Bennett. Simon Shedd. Let me know that it's her birthday. Happy birthday, Jordan. We'll see you at live shows. Yeah, we love those.

So many of them. We love those, too. Can't wait. I can't wait. I went to lunch with them or dinner with them in Chicago. Yeah. I'm going to do it again. They're good people, man.

They're great people. Other producers this week are Matthew Jarrett, Wayne Davis. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. Dana Loft, Evie Valenzuela, Nancy, what is that? Nancy Lackey?

Lackey. Amanda Lovro. Lovro? Lovro. I think that's right. It's a French one. That's what it is. Marissa Allen.

Don Peterson. Christy Rigstad. Joseph Presnell. Katie Dahlstrom. Regroup. Jamie Worrell. No, Kramer. Kramer Philbrecker.

No, Philbrick. Robert Ward. Lauren Bleach. No, Blett. regroup jamie warrell uh have no kramer kramer phil brekker no phil brick robert ward lauren deep bleach no blet what is that bleach i think it's bleach lisa lisa goyer she's of the bleach uh people they have a lot of money they have so much money although the bleach right uh gila voles clean family very clean morgan uh morgan marsh alissa mitchell jessica diane haley christensen yes uh joanna joanna blake joanna blakely gabby uh deneth danetta danetta hey god damn it why am i struggling so hard debbie dubon chris hunter uh scott carlson, and then Gretchen Harrison. Harrison. They're all so easy, and I'm fucking ruining it. Denise Decker, Lisa Miller, Chris Hunter.

I said that. Brett Loves Rena. Rena. Ash Mearns. Gallum Jones. Dan and Sarah. No last name. Matt Stupp.

Connie Shaw. No, Snow. Four letters. Cody Story. Jane Jetson. Probably not. Emily McComiskey. Brittany States.

Catherine Corday. Sarah Bullard. Samantha Fisher. Chrissy McDonald. Esme Alford. John Phillips. Chrissy Baker. Deanna Ray, Maura Allison, what?

What am I doing? I don't know where you are. Vicky Simmons, William Johnston, no, Kevin, Helena, what? It's Kevin Larson, Bonnie Iris Ferris, Sakaya Matsukawa, Kara Butcher, Vicky Simmons, Cornelius Lee. And Cornelius, people say that when you donate on Patreon, it only tells me on your first donation. That's why I only get one in there. And then if you want it again, just holler at me. I'll do my best.

Jeremy Lemons or Lemos bonnie ferris said that phil no paul egan shea frigo fried good uh brenda davey rebecca hutton uh danny eaton jason elsis uh chris reisenberger no rising back kalen no yeah is that kalen it's kalen kallin mckay uh bacon bits the cat flick paw uh jade win winniarski uh hunter steel uh michael michael baez uh cynthia nava julie westmoreland uh christy lee brendan davey dony dainey davey that That's right. Robert Ralfson. Cynthia Nava. Anne Campbell. Shanna. Hmm.

Shannon Elizabeth. Not the girl from American Pie. Megan Epperson. Yeah, different one. Victoria Dimmer. Thank you. Either way. Demonda.

Mickey Speaker. Yeah. Mitch Ludwig. And then home stretch. Here we go. This is going to be the good part. Yeah. Luis? No. Lucy. Yeah, just right off the bat going to be the good part yeah uh louise no lucy lucy lucy frederick i think uh gabriel welch crystal crystal taylor old greg loves games uh jessica

christensen louise rayfield you're gonna say cock on that one so much i thought somebody fucking with their friend greg old greg loves games you knew matt said and sarah and alex no last names on either kevin conker uh jeffrey a jennifer flage uh pamela vander vander water yeah vander water uh shara valentine ashley vo joel or joel zhang uh rachel shalky shalkley yeah it's rachel reagan sh. I know her, and I fucked her name up. Jesse Hartman. Elizabeth Golicki. Jason.

No, Justin. I think it's Justin. Justin Zagorski. Peyton Meadows. Simon Shede. Shed. That's right. Robert Shook.

That's Jordan's husband. Stian Smeby Norman. I think. Probably not. Katie L. Liz Vasquez. Kelly Robinson. Kristen Holt. No, Christy Holt. Tara O' Katie L. Liz Vasquez. Kelly Robinson. Kristen Holt.

No, Christy Holt. Tara O'Neill. Kevin McKee. Allison Villarreal. Catherine Collado. Lizzie. No, Lisa Owens. Kathy Murray.

Oh, God damn it. Rachel. No, Richard. Richard Baldwin. Jackie Sukup. Patty Nowak. Mistina. Mistina Johnson. Sydney Oaks. justin zagorski uh pushy

flounder i think kayla fitzsimmons robin anderson uh mark foster johnny longy dingy dongy okay mark foster ronnie kumar emily rayner and i rattled that one off so fucking perfect kevin kevin gilmurphy neil campbell uh megan brown uh chris coleman patrick hagerty melissa green crystal walker laurie gravelin uh mark nizari madeline english lauren demirath and susan platt you guys um make me struggle and i i like it i really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, you heroic sons of bitches. It's true.

Fuck we love you people. Thank you. Honestly. Jesus Christ, you have no idea. If we put out a bonus and people start signing up for Patreon, too, we're like, that's awesome that they want the material that bad. They want more? Jesus.

They want more. Fucking people. Thank you for falling for our Trojan horse of murder. Murder is our Trojan horse that we try to sneak our comedy in there on. So thank you for inviting the horse in. Thank you for supporting us. Thank you for buying shirts. Thank you for coming to the shows.

Everything. Fuck. Thank you guys for being such amazing people. Absolutely. I'm really, really thrilled with the audience we've created and the people that we've bit. What if they wanted to tell you something similar, Jimmy? How could they do that? You can find me at Whisman sucks w-h-i-s-m-a-n sucks on twitter instagram snapchat uh it's that's really the you guys are why we do it so thank you

what about james uh you can find me at jimmy p is funny or just copy and paste my name from the show description and do it that way that way you don't have to try to spell it because it'll take you a while it'll be like three months from now you'll get it if you if you copy and paste it that way. That way you don't have to try to spell it, because it'll take you a while. It'll be like three months from now you'll get it if you copy and paste it a bunch of times. That said, do that. Hang out with us. Keep coming back every week. Good Lord, do we have more crazy shows.

You betcha. Each and every goddamn week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wond. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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