Small Town Murder - #162 - A Very Unstable Genius in Chatham Township, New Jersey

Episode Date: March 12, 2020

This week, in Chatham Township, New Jersey, a brilliant woman achieves amazing things, breaking through glass ceilings, and being an inspiration to people around her. But what those people don't realize is there is something under the surface that they can't see. Something that leads to two deaths, and one seriously weird scenario. This is a wild one! Along the way, we find out that even New Jersey has nice parts, that being smart doesn't necessarily mean that your brain is in perfect working order, and that even murderers have problems!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Chatham Township, New Jersey, a brilliant woman slowly begins to unravel until a horrible discovery is made

in her childhood home. back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy wild edition of small town murder yeah nuts as always uh today just a just a crazy episode today you don't want to miss this one it's wild stuff uh thank you everybody for everything you've done

for us this whole week of course your reviews are they help a lot if you haven't done it yet get on that apple podcast that purple icon give us stars. I don't know why. It helps drive you up the charts for some reason. It's their algorithm, not ours. I don't know. So sorry you have to do that, but thank you very much for doing that. We do appreciate it. It really, really helps us show out a lot.

Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right now. There it is. Or whenever you can, really. I mean, we don't want to rush anybody or anything, but it's not going anywhere. For everything small-town murder, murder and of course crime and sports if you haven't been listening to crime and sports you've definitely been missing out check out the last couple weeks uh the one a couple weeks ago bieber david bieber's a bodybuilder zero sports it's just a crazy murder story so check that out you can kind of wage yourself in and then dive in from there you don't have to like sports trust me

get a taste it's it's almost better if you don't like sports because uh we're gonna brag on everything and everybody involved in it so it's better if you don't so check that out get everything there also get your tickets to live shows right oh the tour the tour it's coming we are in san francisco yeah tomorrow and and saturday friday the uh march 13th and Saturday, the 14th, we're in San Francisco. Pending. As of right now, we're still there. It says Friday night's sold out.

Saturday night, there's still tickets left. Unless they tell us, do not come, the show is canceled, we're doing it. We're not going to cancel shit. Unless San Francisco puts a cap on gatherings or anything like that, we're definitely going to be there. They've got a cap on it just right now. It's a thousand. We're going to a 400 seater. So that's good.

So, yeah, we'll see how that goes. But after that, though, definitely Detroit and Cincinnati, the 27th and 28th of March. Check those out. And also Cincinnati. Like if you saw us in Indianapolis, Cincinnati will be a different show. i know that's close so uh that's going to be a different show so if you're on the fence there you can go do that there's a few tickets left for both of those nashville sold out austin and oklahoma city after that get your tickets right now uh we're very excited besides that uh definitely if you want to be one of our heroes one of of our producers, very easy to do. Also, if you want to get bonus content, this week another bonus episode.

It's not a murder case this week. This week we're going to delve into something crazy we found in crime and sports that we've had a lot of fun with. We've done the prisoner dating game, but we found crazy personal ads from like 30 years ago are hilarious. And we are going to do a whole show on them, a bonus episode that comes out Friday for Patreon, $5 and above. If you want to be a part of that, very easy to do. You can go over to patreon.com slash crime and sports or head over to PayPal and use our email address, which is crime and sports at gmail.com.

And God, every cent is so appreciated. And we're going to gush about these people, our fine, fine producers at the end of the show and say how much we love them. Besides that, it's time for a quick disclaimer. This is a comedy show. It's a comedy show. That's all it is. It's a comedy show.

There's murder involved. There is. People are going to die. It happens. It's a murder show. People die every day. No matter what we do, they're not coming back. So we are going to make jokes.

We're not going to make jokes about small towns. We're going to make jokes about like if a police force screws something up for 20 years and a murderer walks free. We'll make fun of murderers because we have no other way to get back at them. So that's what we're going to do. What we try not to do, we go out of our way not to do. We try not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. So with that said, I think we're going to have a great time here. Get in the car.

We're on the way to the liquor store. Let's do this. That's the thing. If you're on board now, we're going to have a good time. It's like you're in the car on the way to a liquor store to rob the liquor store. You all know what's going to happen. You know what's going to happen. If somebody accidentally panics and squeezes a trigger, and you never know, and the little

woman's brains end up all over the vodka and the Marlboro cartons behind the counter there. You know what happens there. You're all just as responsible. That's the thing. So I don't want to hear any complaining afterwards. You know, if you get any on you. That's what we're saying. That and the life sentence.

We're all going down together. If you don't think comedy and crime should ever go together, then it probably isn't for you generally. But if you want to have a good time and hear about a murder that has a lot of comedy all around it, then I think it's time to sit back and shout, Shut up and give me murder! Let's do this, Jimmy. Great!

Let's go on a trip. I'd love it. What do you say? Let's get the hell out of here. Sure. It's rainy in Phoenix, which is weird. Miserable. I love it. I love the rain, especially in the desert. There's going to be so many days of this, though. It's so great. It never happens. Take it now. I suppose. It's going to Phoenix, which is weird. I love it. I love the rain, especially in the desert. It's going to be so many days of this, though.

It's so great. It never happens. Take it now. I suppose. It's going to go six months later, but that's all right. It was cold today. It was chilly. James, I was freezing.

It's chilly. My teeth were chattering. Well, we're going all the way this week. We're getting out of everywhere. We're going to New Jersey. Oh. Look at us. Gross.

Oh, my. Yeah, it's not any better. We're going to New Jersey. The Florida of the North, everybody. Where the rain stings your skin. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's not any better. We're going to New Jersey. The Florida of the North, everybody. Where the rain stings your skin. Oh, yeah. Very nice. Chatham Township, New Jersey, as a matter of fact.

It's in north central New Jersey. Just up there, we'll find it's about 40 minutes away from New York City. So very commutable to New York City. About an hour and 35 minutes to Philadelphia, over over to the west there and about an hour to ocean township new jersey our last jersey episode which was uh 147 there yeah it wasn't too long ago november yeah but uh sometimes you got to dip back into the waters and that's still it's still a few months ago yeah this is in morris county uh arabs zip code 07928.973 area code it's about nine square miles decent size little area here uh now history of this town we'll talk about we'll breeze over pretty quickly because uh not a

lot's really happened here no no the first like kind of white settlers i guess quote unquote arrived here about 1710 because it was fertile there was good soil and there was iron ore deposits in the region as well so people wanted to come here and uh the during the revolutionary war this was a a big few people going through here like crazy the armies going through here so they were a big part of the whole revolutionary war process as all most of the Northeast was. I mean, it's pretty heavily involved here. So this village here, it used to be in Morris Township, it was called, which was during the Revolutionary War, but then they ended up getting their own space. And in 1892, Chatham seceded from the new township. Oh.

We're out of here. We want our own. No part of you fucking people. How dare you people do what you're doing. This township. Oh. We're out of here. We're on our own. No part of you fucking people. How dare you people. Do what you're doing. This township. I don't know what you're doing, but whatever you're doing,

stop doing it. We're out of here. So, yeah, they did that. The township form of government is the oldest form of municipal government in the state of New Jersey. Really? So, yeah, I don't know why.

And it's mostly Jersey that does townships, right? Or is it only Jersey? There's Michigan, too. Michigan has tons of townships. Just of towns there's a lot of townships yeah all their money i guess so well yeah there was a big thing about them too about they had a big argument about one town was like they were all paying money but like they weren't fixing up one part of town so they had like a big apportionment fight it was pretty boring so i didn't put it in there it seems like something that would happen where nobody put everybody's money together and the bigger town's gonna be

like we're gonna buy this or buy that no violence nobody burned anything down so i was like nobody they don't need to hear about this shit nobody cares so uh yeah it didn't matter but the uh in the late 1870s and 1880s chatham township became a center of the rose growing industry. Really? Yeah. Just growing roses like crazy. Apparently the specialty of Lewis M. No greenhouses was the American beauty rose with a stem. That's five feet long. Mike, what? I feel you need that for how do you?

Here you go. Gee, thanks. Well, I'll walk it home because it won't fit in my car. I guess I have to get on a ladder to look at this fucking thing. Hold the back seat down. I'm going to put my rose in. What the hell is that? Five fucking feet long.

Too much. That's a lot of stem. At Christmas, he would send them to European royalty. Oh. Yeah. Queen Victoria received 50 of them on her golden anniversary. When she got them, she was like, I'm sure these were nice when they were alive yeah it was a long way it's gotta go across the ocean yeah and you're gonna you expect that to live not i don't think so it took weeks back then to get across the ocean

you ever sent those for a holiday they're dead three days later you couldn't overnight them or anything i mean i i don't know that's crazy maybe they're once they're i don't know i don't know when they're crystallized they're nice they're still nice putting a bath i don't know i guess they're still beautiful it's all in the stem jimmy that's probably what it was she's like yeah fuck the rose look how long this shit is that's it this is great yeah knock that shit off the top of it put those stems up on the wall moreicia adams would have loved oh absolutely so during world war ii there was a construction ban for five years because materials were needed for other things so nothing must have been hard to live during world war ii i can't imagine obviously

if you were in the war it was really hard but if you were home even that you couldn't get things they didn't make new cars they didn't make you couldn't ration for the war everything was ration you want a new car, Nancy? Yeah. Sorry, there's a war on. There's a fucking war going on. I don't know. What the fuck do you want from us?

You can't have one now. Yeah, that's the way it was. It must have been really difficult. Everything. People were giving their tin over to the government. The Red Baron is in the skies. We need planes up there, Martha. No Plymouth for you.

No, you're not getting it. You're not getting shit. Some guy want a new cadillac i'm important more important than hitler so's the safety of our country motherfucker walk ride the bus or just drive the car you have already and just have a new one that's all there were still cars still runs they didn't ban cars just building new ones fix the old one asshole they've been doing it in cuba for 70 years there's 60 years enjoy so uh but the problem was after this people wanted to move here and not just grow roses people wanted to move here and live here because it's a suburb of new york city so after world war ii when they started the highway system started getting better yeah Yeah. It made it easier to get there.

You're obviously, and that was kind of also when New York City was, you know, people were running to the suburbs. Sure. So at that point, people came, and rather than having just a shitload of big farms, they would break the farms into a bunch of home sites and, you know, building neighborhoods and, what are they called? Like a... Tracks?

Like a subdivision? subdivision subdivision there you go i don't know what the hell that word escaped me i was going with track homes like crazy but yeah it's just what's inside these are all luxurious homes though this is a very this is a wealthy area custom home subs oh yeah no these are these are big houses with nice properties these aren't like crammed in together or anything like that some of the rose farms or a bunch of the rose farms became two big shopping centers so that kind of sucks there that's that's kind of shitty in 1959 the port authority uh they checked there's they call it the great swamp there there's a big swamp where it used to be a glacier in that area and you know there's a swamp yeah so they wanted to put an airport in the Great Swamp area rather than make it like a wilderness area that it is now.

They said, how about an airport? And so apparently all the neighboring municipalities and all the residents and everything all got together and got it to voted no on that, got them to not do that. When you get a bunch of rich people that want something, generally they it they get it if they don't want an airport in their neighborhood ain't gonna be an airport in the neighborhood in every major city every city you live in people live in cities with airports where's the airport yeah is it in the rich neighborhood rarely nope no guess what it's not ever so uh yeah that says a lot right there it's near a street that's like early numbers like 12th street and Street or like a dead president. Yeah.

Where's the railroad station? It'll be around there, which is also not the best part. No. Now that place is an open space where joggers and hikers and nature lovers go around. It's untouched now instead. Now it's just beautiful. It's like a swamp preserve. Yeah.

It's a preserve now. So it's just a beautiful area where people can walk around and do shit. But yeah, people are moving out of here, are moving into here, you know, and driving into New York City for the most part to work. And they really in the 60s and 70s, a lot of rezoning started happening. So people could do that. Getting rid of farms. They had a huge farm there called schwartz farm that had dairy products that were sold in all the local areas and uh yeah local

stores and schools and everything like that and uh they got rid of that even because they were it's all residential now rich people rich people moving in everybody there don't pour our milk thank you that's right uh he. Jesus. Oh, boy. Heil. It's H-I-Y-L, but still Heil. It's still Heil. Heil Roses in Green Village was the last and oldest commercial rose and rose and cut flower grower in New Jersey. And it finally closed in 1999.

So, yeah, now it's just rich people. And we have some reviews. Now, a lot of people like this town a lot of beautiful stately you know a lot of adjectives flying around of gorgeous and leafy and shit like that not everyone loves it now and i found the people who might not be as enthusiastic as some of the other people here the people who got to maintain it i found a couple of one star reviews here i found one star quote it used to be a lovely friendly town now it has become pretentious and filled with newcomers who in many cases are trying to shape the culture to their liking

rather than maintaining the low-key friendly vibe that attracted them in the first place first of all that's hilarious yeah that's old money people going how dare they come in here now that's like a there's i i heard now i could be wrong i heard a puerto rican family moved in down the block now i won't tolerate that i mean they've done nothing yet but you know they're gonna have a party or something there'll be music playing they look they like horns i believe a lot of horns i don't want to hear it i smelled a barbecue i smell i did you smell a barbecue awful yeah it'll be, it'll be like... It came through my air conditioner. I picture like Niles on Frasier wrote this.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like the one time they were looking for Maris and he goes, one of the neighbors reported something called a minivan. But that was weeks ago. Remembered from weeks ago. That's what's going on here. Hilarious.

Nothing. I love that, though. Just not the low-key thing that we do you know where we barely make eye contact and then it continues quote loud ill-mannered noisy and entitled every house a teardown replaced by a two million and up behemoth really a huge change over the last 20 years I see now why so many people put their kids, move when the kids finish school. So if they graduate, they get the fuck out of town. Yeah.

So this is, well, probably because their house is worth $3 million and they don't need it anymore. So they move somewhere. And it's a bigger house and they want to downsize or they just want to move somewhere. You know. That happens a lot with rich people. They don't stay in the big house they had with kids. But this, this, that's an obvious review, a very specific.

Yeah, the guy says behemoth. He's a well-to-do fellow. A couple people moved into the neighborhood that he doesn't like, and the whole town's shit now. He's furious. Yeah, here's another one star here. This is for different reasons, though. You'll find a variety. One star, there's not a lot to do in this area aside from going to a friend's house.

There are no fun attractions in or around our town. The closest place for attractions would probably be New York City. Oh, gee. Well, sorry. You only have New York City, right? It's 40 minutes away. It's not that far away. It's fucking right there.

You can see it. It's right there. Like, I'm sorry. You don't need shit to do in your town because right there is everything see it it's right there like i'm sorry you you don't need shit to do in your town because right there is everything you could ever fucking want to do in the history of the world is in front of you you stupid asshole one star one star for living in new york city's fucking shadow yeah one star because that's why people move there because they don't want all the shit.

They want to be able to just go to New York City and then get away from it. You're literally close enough to New York City to get a New York City rat on your property. Oh, we could sneak on and crawl right over the river. There's plenty in Jersey City and all that. They'll get to you eventually. Ridiculous.

Jesus Christ. People in this town, population 10,452. That's in the township. And there's Chatham Township and there's Chatham, which is a separate thing, all encompassed in the same area. And kind of the township population is included in Chatham's population there. So there's more in the regular Chatham. Some of these stats are from Chatham, but it's all the same area doesn't matter shouldn't have said any of that anyway moving on uh male female populations are pretty even but a lot of 5 to 14 year old kids in this area and a

lot of 45 to 54 year old people there you go so that's you know uh people with money who had kids a little bit later you know have their kids made money and then had children and were not idiots like me. And build $2 million behemoth houses. Because they can afford it. Because they can afford it. Because, yeah, they work in New York City and have good money. Because they planned their life correct and I didn't. Yeah, I did a bad job myself.

So, sorry, everybody. So, married people in this town is way more. Usually it's 50-50. Here it's 65%. All these wealthy towns, we get that. Everybody is not a lot of, you know, the divorce rate's lower. People stay together. There's money that keeps them together.

It's different. Single with no children? Party town. Three percent. Get on out there. Good luck. Three out of 100 people, if you're looking for that. Race of this town, 81.1.1 percent white it's pretty white 1.7 percent black 9.5 percent asian interesting which is like double the average asian population which is funny maybe those

people don't like asians in that review or yeah that's a thing too that's possible they're a fucking culture on us oh they're coming in with their culture. They did say that. They said bring in their culture. Oh, my God. I think they're talking about all the Asians. That's fucked up. Oh, my God. Old lady's like, I'm going to write a review for all these Asians coming in.

Who would take to the internet for that? I don't know, man. Is there more Asians? That's it. I'm getting my laptop out. What are you doing? Who cares? 6.3% Hispanic.

Yeah. Crazy. 60% of the people here are religious. I guess they're happy for what they've received. Okay. And they're going to pray for it. Hang on to it. 43% Catholic.

You betcha. As you're going to find. Catholics are, of course, the Baptists of the North, as we know. A few Lutherans, a couple of Methodists. 1.6% jewish oh yeah i don't know the words hey all right good yeah or whatever something do they say something i don't think there's a hiya probably i doubt at the end of it i'm gonna go ahead and say no what about a yeehaw i doubt a yeehaw

and maybe there's like a sham on like a michael jackson is there a play ball like a james brown like a touch myself i think that's how i think that's how it ends i'm not positive i want it to be touched myself i think in temple they add that part on not not like at the hockey game but if you hear it like during a bar mitzvah right that's what's gonna happen there uh then they smash glass yeah i don't think that's how it works there. I doubt there's that at the end of it. Really don't think so. So in the Morris County here, that last election, 46% Democrat and 50% Republican, about 5% Independent here. The unemployment rate is low here.

The money is high. Median household income in the rest of the country is $57,000. Here it is $173,929. Wow. So a little bit more than the average, like more than three times that. 45% of the people here make over $200,000 a year. That's a lot of homeowners. That's a lot of very comfortable, very happy people.

Wow. That'll keep your marriage together. That's what I mean. That'll keep the divorce rate down. That'll keep those blowjobs happening. I don't like him anymore. I'm going on a vacation for a week. Okay.

That's funny how you can just space. That is a nice bonus, honey. Did you say boner? Whatever. I don't care. Doesn't matter. Bring it over here. Either way.

whatever i don't care bring it over anyway uh about five percent of the people make under thirty thousand dollars a year which is way under normal i mean that's ridiculous nobody it's a lot of professional jobs white collar you can commute to the city so it's it's right there cost of living 100 being like you know regular average par here uh here it is 194.2 so a little bit high we'll say and the real high thing is housing yeah the housing is nuts 355 behemoths yeah 355 out of 100 is housing uh the median home cost is 820 700 that's the wow that's the median home cost here. My God. A little fucking pricey. Yeah. Looking at what is available housing-wise, like the value of properties, basically under $200,000 is like 3% of the houses are worth under $200,000. Most of the houses fall in the $500,000 to $1.5 million range. Like 75% of the houses fall in that range.

So it's a little pricey, let's just say, to live here. And if we've convinced you, damn it, there is nothing, nothing else for you to do but move to this place. We have for you the Chatham Township, New Jersey Real Estate Report. your average two-bedroom rental here is uh this seems like the deal actually because it's it's you know in ratio to the housing prices it's 2110 which is still pricey but you don't even own it well compared to this i found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,381-square-foot house. It's a small house. Nice, clean, nice. $719,000.

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's, you know. Wow. Jesus Christ. Thank you, New York City. Wow, I found a four-bedroom, three-bath, 3,100-square-foot house here. Very nice. $899,000.

Oh, my fuck. It's pricey. You're going to pay for shit. Then you want to stretch out. You want to get, you know, tea bowls for your99,000. Fuck. It's pricey. You're going to pay for shit. Then you want to stretch out. You want to get, you know, tea bowls for your b-holes. Yeah. You can do it here. Six bedrooms, six baths.

Yep. 4,868 square foot. Beautiful. It's so pretty. It has pink trees that frame the door in the front yard. Stop it. It's ridiculously nice. Like pink flowering trees?

Pink flowers. Unbelievable. The picture's just flowers, all pink. $1,689,000. Jesus. God, I've got to make some money. That's what I'm saying. How much are pink trees?

Can I just get pink trees instead? Because I can't afford that fucking house. I feel like that can make a house look like it's worth the money. You know what I'm saying? You throw a couple of pink trees in front of my house, I think it's a different story. I think people are going, oh. I think they're going to have a different attitude about where i'm living there is a desert willow that has like magenta and white flowers yeah and it is amazing for like three weeks until all those burn the

fuck off it's just a piece of shit that's all the flowers here right remember my old house had this ivy on it outside in the one part remember the yellow was it the yellow flowers yeah it had this bright ass yellow and then for like three weeks in the spring the. Remember? The yellow, was it the yellow flowers? Yeah, it had this. Bright-ass yellow. And then for like three weeks in the spring, the whole thing would explode in these giant like bell-shaped, beautiful yellow flowers that were gorgeous all on the outside. And then they'd die after three weeks. And the fire would, the fire weather would just refuse to let it grow. It stays great. It looks nice.

I look fine. The flowers would be great. No, they're gone. Who knows? What are you going to do? So pink trees, everybody. Trust me. Put it in your yard.

It'll look better. Changes everything. Changes it all, man. Change your whole attitude. Things to do here. Oh, buddy. Here we go. Very exciting.

The apple cidering is a big deal here. Of course. Go apple cidering. Very big deal here go apple cidering uh very big deal saturdays and sundays in the fall yeah uh apparently it costs four four dollars to do this they say uh quote the perfect fall family tradition well then so you're making the cider i get make delicious homemade apple cider using an old-fashioned hand-cranked cider press jesus that sounds like a lot of work that's the allure yeah can i make butter when i'm done yeah what am i amish now what the fuck am i doing

why am i working yeah i don't want to buy this i'll drink it but jesus and learn fun facts about the amazing apple wow i'm excited already best of all enjoy the fruits of your label and sample the fresh cider i fucking hope so what am, making it for them to bottle now? I do appreciate they threw fruits in there. Fruits of your label. That's nice. Clever. Rain or shine, everybody.

So you can sit there hand-cranking apples in the rain. Fucking right. Sound great? How great does that sound? And pay $4 for the privilege. Yay. 973-635-6629 if you want to get in on that. That's the phone number. Call them and swear it up. Oh, yeah. For more information if you want to get in on that. That's the phone number.

Call them and swear it on. Oh, yeah. For more information, you got to go in there. Also, the Maple Sugar Festival. Now, we had a maple syrup festival last week. It's a maple sugar festival they have here now.

The country's bet shit for maple, everybody. If you're not from the U.S. and you're listening right now, for some reason, we weren't aware of it either. This country's fucking crazy for maple. We've been built on maple maple we didn't even know it yeah and by the way here's another thing quickly off the subject uh british people are uk listeners what i i find it amazing when you greet each other yeah uh and you say all right is that what's up that's what's up right

so you just go all right all right and're like, are you saying all right? Like, are you all right? And then he says, all right. That's what they're saying. Are you all right? But they're not asking if you're all right. They're just saying, all right. It's like, what's up?

You're not asking the person, well, I just came from here. And I went there. They're just going to go, hey, what's up? You got a list full of shit to do. OK. I just wanted to clarify that. It's been bothering me lately. So anyway.

It is bizarre. It's interesting. Well, we say, what's up? It's the same thing. It's a question that we don't want an answer for. you answer this i swear to christ here have a rhetorical question that i'm not really interested in the answer to weird it's the same with how are you doing we don't we just we genuinely don't care no say how you doing how you doing that's all right it's what's up same shit so stop asking unless you want to know yeah because i'll tell you next

time i ever go to the uk well let me let me tell you. It's a thing. So March 14th, this is going on here. It's $5, Maple Sugar Festival. Rain or shine again. These people will make cider and maple in the rain. Is that just brown sugar? I don't know. Maple Sugar Festival activities are hikes through maple sugaring history.

You hike through maple sugar history. It's a weird thing. Every checkpoint you get a fact. Games. Maple syrup snow cones. Gross. That sounds disgusting. That sounds terrible.

I'm sorry. That sounds terrible. That really does. I don't want a maple syrup snow cone. It sounds thick and gross and weird. It's sticky. And sticky and nasty. There's crafts.

Syrup taste tests. Okay. Okay. And much more.. There's crafts, syrup taste tests. Okay. Okay. And much more. Five dollars. How do you taste? I guess you can use a stick to make it more sanitary, but I just see a bunch of gluttonous fucks jamming their finger into it.

That's like a bear. Yeah. That's what I saw. Winnie the Pooh. People, yeah, like dipping their paw in and just putting it all up. Just sucking on fingers. Dripping down their cheek. It's good.

I like this one best. That's where coronavirus patient zeroes that's it right there the stamp festival avoid the maple sugar festival everybody uh crime rate in this town well let me tell you just rather than give you the rates and all that sort of thing and uh murder rape robbery and assault the mount rushmore and all that sort of thing let me just read something oh boy from an insurance company thing that was out here an article article. In 2018, Chatham Township has been named one of the 30 safest small towns in America by this group of insurance companies that does that shit. Only towns with populations under 30,000 were considered, since us.

To make the rankings, the company looked at sites including a bunch of different sites for things, for crime data. Chatham was one of two Morris County towns to make the list here. Insurance companies, this is what they said uh chatham was to one of two morris county towns to make the list here uh insurance companies this is what they said about chatham uh quote there were not any violent crimes reported in chatham in 2016 zero zero there were not any murder rape robbery assault none of those in 2016 how and chatham not just the township, the town has like 17,000 people in it. No violent crime. Not even just that, but being 40 minutes from New York, nobody even passed through.

Nobody wandered in by accident. Right. With a kidnapping and just did it all there. Nope. Just robbed a guy. Like, hey, we'll go there. It's rich. We can rob people.

Nope. None of that shit. And of the 49 total crimes reported, that's less than one crime a week reported. No kidding. So if you're that police force, you're sitting there literally one call a week will come in, maybe none. That's your day. Well, there may be more calls than that. But not for crime.

Not anything that's pertinent. People are calling going, all right. All right. All right. All right. All right. And they hang up. Sheriff's Department. Reno 901. All right all right click done that's what they're doing it's a car accident and shit like that they're

getting cats out of trees all right just new boot goofing just goofing new boot goofing so unbelievable what the hell kind of life is that if you're a police officer two one how many do you think there's only 49 crimes but out of the 49 crimes 39 were instances of petty theft unbelievable just maybe a kid shoplifting or something literally that's the crime that's going on or is somebody taking something forgetting that they put it on their baby carriage and walked out who knows that's petty theft. Not even like theft theft. Right. Just stole something small.

It's not worth shit. So this place is insanely safe. Yeah. Such statistics, according to these insurance companies, make Chatham's overall crime rate 81% lower than the national average and give Chatham residents a, quote, 0.5 chance of becoming victim to a crime. That is so safe so yeah if you have 800 something thousand dollars to spend this is a great place to raise kids i guess if you

don't like asians i suppose fucking gate on the town how do they do that i don't know how they do that that's amazing i believe that this is probably one of those towns where uh if you drive through it and you're not recognized you will get pulled over and fucking fucked with probably. Or maybe it's just like there's a turnoff for it to get to it, and it's just off the beaten path. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's true, too. Yeah, maybe it's a little out of the way.

It's not convenient to go through it. I guess not, but no one's doing any crime. I don't know what's going on here. Even if that's the case, that it's off the beaten path, that doesn't explain 17,000 people just getting along in harmony yeah having less than one crime a week it's insanity not even a dude punching out his neighbor nothing no it never happened no not one time no violent crimes it's wild so with that said let's talk about a horrific murder what do you say welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs

deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran,

Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the

exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

Didn't happen in 2016. plus great didn't happen in 2016 obviously but uh yeah let's go back to august 26th of the year 2000 okay okay it's pre-9-11 yeah like right before yeah you know things are things are rosy you got a year before it's about to take a shit yeah it's a year and a year and a few weeks you're doing fine everything's great uh well uh this on this particular morning the police do get a call and it's not for a petty theft no they probably had to wake the guy up right i i just pictured the cop uh feet up on the desk yeah feet you know crossed with the with the sheriff cowboy hat over his eyes sleeping or an actual sleeping yeah but like his his like yeah fingers folded over his chest.

Like Hopper from Stranger Things, basically. Like after a rough night. First season Hopper when he was hurting, you know? Drinking a lot and shit. Fingers in the form of the steeple. Yep, that's all right on his chest. Hat down. Phone rang at 6.48 a.m.

Jesus H. Christ. I'm trying to sleep. Oh, for the love of Christ. I haven't even had my coffee yet. Fuck, man. I'm stillm. Jesus. H. Christ. I'm trying to sleep. Oh, for the love of Christ. I haven't even had my coffee yet. Fuck, man. I'm still drunk. This is insanity. So it is a call to come to a house in town here.

And when police arrive, they knock on the door and they are greeted by a 55-year-old woman quite disheveled in her nightgown. But looks like she's doesn't look like she's been out of that nightgown in a while and it looks like she's been living in this nightgown uh she answers the door and uh according to the police when they asked if she answered the door the police asked you know what's going on he called at 648 in the petty theft. Yeah. He showed up. All right. She went, no, not all right. Not at all. Not at all.

She said, quote, something is terribly wrong. And they said, okay. They know of this family. And so they asked. They knew that her elderly parents live there. And they said, are your parents dead? And she said, yes. Oh, boy.

They're dead. Lucky guess. Yeah, lucky guess. They're dead. Lucky guess. Yeah, lucky guess. They're dead. Something went terribly wrong. And something did go terribly wrong. Oh, boy. This is wild.

Both parents. Both parents. The parents who are dead are Adela. They're the Hagans, H-A-G-E-N. Adela Hagen, who is 92 years old at that moment, born in 1908. Unbelievable. 1908.

Think about that. Holy shit. She might be our, does she beat Stillwater, New York? I think she was born in 1909, I think, that lady. So look at that. Wow. Oldest victim. Look at this.

Setting records every day. And her husband, James, who, yeah was she was grave she was cradle robin here he was 86 oh go born in 1914 they got she was like i like a younger man yeah he's a little more spry i like that what i'm talking about yeah about that she was on the prowl like in the in the 30s when they got together probably or the 40s or whatever like that was considered a she was a cougar and he was born in the next decade yeah yeah when they were born the life expectancy was like 45 oh yeah it should happen she she might outlive him like tomorrow pre-penicillin man i mean dude things happen yeah bad things happened all the time horrible things disfiguring things horrible that are

permanent yeah that are now nothing nothing absolutely nothing so uh here james was an optician something to do with eyes i believe you wear glasses i know there's an opto there's an optometrist that's what i mean does the optician optician optician does are they the people that work on the i think they're the people who work on the glasses i'm not sure i think so um ophthalmologists he worked with a lot yeah i think that's the person that does the eye exam and the opt you should know this you've worn glasses and optometrists glasses jimmy uh fuck i've been wearing them for 20 years eight yeah so what are we talking about you should know this stuff way too long okay to know that i've seen

probably all of these uh professions don't know what the fuck they do okay good good so i have no idea just optometrists optician i don't feel bad then i have no way of knowing i don't wear glasses i wouldn't know i don't know the fuck that works i imagine that's the guy that makes the glasses it sounds like it he sounds important yeah so uh he's an optician i guess with uh with he was you know he'd work with ophthalmologists and all that sort of thing. And they were kind of stern people, very ambitious and wanted to, like a lot of people who came up, think about this. During the Great Depression, the age they were was very formative. I mean, you'd be scared shitless of money and you'd want to save your money. And it's kind of how they were.

They were real studious and very interested in academics, especially they had a daughter they have a daughter in 1945 november 15th 1945 as a matter of fact to be exact uh she is adela after her mother uh kathleen is her middle name hagan everybody calls her kathleen or kathy yeah kathy in her younger years and then when she grows up as we'll talk about, she becomes pretty important. And she drops the Kathy for Kathleen. Really? Yeah, no more Big Willie. My game's grown.

Prefer you call me William, as Jay-Z once said. So, you know, that's her deal, I think. Prefer you call me William. Prefer you call me William. That was a fucking funny line. deal i think you call me william before you call me william that was a fucking funny line anyway uh kathleen here uh she they raise her to be very very academically conscious basically it's all about school it's all about do well uh it's their only child they have one child and uh they're not happy she's not a boy oh right away really? Not thrilled about that. Dad's pissed? They're both pissed.

Nobody's happy with this arrangement. They both want a boy. Dad wants a boy to follow in his footsteps. Not thrilled with a young girl at all. But. And when she was born, there was no like, they didn't know. No, it just came out and was like. And the dad was like, fuck.

Girl. Shit. No, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry And the dad was like, fuck. Girl. Shit. She's like, I know. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, you fucking bitch. He slams his beer. Punch me, I deserve it. Slams his beer bottle against the wall and runs out. That's what happened in the 40s.

That was a typical thing. And then she spent the next 12 years apologizing that her egg didn't choose the correct sperm. And then they named her Kathy and just put upon all their eggs. All put upon, right there. Put it all upon. Don't worry, I'll call her Kathy. It's okay. Well, first I'm going to name her Idella first

just to screw her up a little bit because that's a very popular kid name right now. You know, all those 50 songs, you know, Help Me Rhonda, there's a lot of Idellas. I want you, Idella. That was never a song. Nope.

The Beach Boys never sang about it. It just never happened. It's so weird. For every other song that happened, you'd imagine Idella would come up somewhere. Poor girl. Nope. There's no, come on, Idella. That song doesn't exist at all.

It doesn't happen. Yeah, but she grows up. Sweet Idella. Your name's so goddamn dumb. Fuck me. Your parents rescued you out of debt. You disappoint your parents. Since day one. You disappoint your parents. You better get your grades.

We're going to pretend you're a boy. Unbelievable. You got a bad name. Jesus Christ. Poor Adela so uh adela here kathleen so she grows up very much into academics like we said um grows up around her father being an optician and she would see him work with different doctors and stuff like that and she had like an interest in a medical type of thing and one thing they did do for her which is better because 1945 back then a lot of times not everybody but most people that had daughters would be like okay uh you know by the time you're 19 you either got to marry a guy with a good career or we got to ship you off to secretary school and get you some kind of fucking

steady work as a nurse or a secretary or something like that. Jump up those words for a minute. See mad men. That's what it was. It was like, go get this job if you can't get married right away. And then when you're at this job, you better be hunting for a husband over there in middle management because otherwise what's going to happen to you? They didn't treat her like that.

They wanted her to be a boy. So they just treated her like one in terms of how they would treat boys back then and try to, you know, you need to achieve and you need to do well in school. They didn't do that as much with girls back then, but they did that with her. Is that like the first feminism and like the first supporting of a woman? I guess supporting of a woman going, you have no dick. God, I hate you. Do your work.

Just do your schoolwork. When you get married, my fucking legacy goes away. That's right. I'm going to be a legend. They're going to give awards with my name on them because of what I'm doing here. Not your name. Not your name. You'll see.

I'm the feminist. So, no, I don't know what that's a shitty way to raise your kids to be mean to them. But in the end, it ended up, like I i said making it so she wasn't treated like a lot of the girls were back then yeah to you know they're going to be subjugated she was actually like they were like no no you're going to have your own career path kind of cool it's empowering it's it is if they were nice to her too it would have been great but they were also kind of a little bit stern on it and making sure that she knows that she's not a boy and that they're disappointed in that as well so that is a

really weird thing here we could have named you isaac yeah no shit in high school she had a summer job with a doctor that got her even more interested in medicine and things like that um also in high school uh her classmates jacob said she was called kathy she's known as an attractive, well-groomed, fun-loving type of person who graduated from the Barbizon Modeling School as well. She's hot. Yeah, she's very pretty. I'll show you a picture of her here, too. She's very pretty. Be proud of your daughter, man.

It's just, I mean, Barbizon. If you've heard the... That was a joke. Yeah, Sebastian Maniscalco is the funniest person ever talking about Barbizon comedian Sebastian Maniscalco. The way he says it, Barbizon. It's fucking Barbizon. He talks about how he went to Barbizon. He goes, I first got to L.A.

He goes, I got these headshots. He tells this whole story about how he would send headshots out to casting directors from his fucking Barbizon pictures. It's like, you're going to take a picture of me in the weeds or something and send it to a casting director. It's like crawling through the weeds. It's a crawling through the weeds looking hilarious stand up like a tiger it's such a funny story as a podcast is so fucking i don't want to hear it it's great so uh yeah anyway barbizon modeling school she went to uh um as a teenager though uh she does have some mood issues um she is going to be diagnosed bipolar manic depressive. It's manic depressive back then. And back then it was probably just called, I don't know.

She's got she's got funny periods. Cheer up, bitch. I don't know. This is in the cheer up, bitch. You know, as we talked about with Betty Lou Beats, this is in the what are you crazy? What do you got? Postpartum or you got bipolar? I don't know. Cheer up, bitch. What do you got, postpartum? Or you got bipolar? I don't know.

Cheer up, bitch. What do you got to worry about? Why don't you get married? Right. That's, you know, that'll fix you up. That's what they'd say back then. You want to go on the nut farm?

We'll have Fred over there with a dildo just ramming you. Yeah, she can do it. That'll solve it. So, so, so, go fuck yourself.

If you don't, our boyfriend will. He's a janitor. Sweet Adila. Sweet Adila. Sweet Adila. You better do well in school, you disappointing bitch. Itch, itch. Oh, I feel so bad for her. Have no penis.

Such a disappointment now. Sorry. I should sing that forever. So, yeah. So she has these problems there. And they said it ran in her family as well. Like, it was a family thing. And obviously, there's nothing.

We're laughing because we obviously don't take any sort of mental illness lightly. No. Clearly on the shows we talk about. That's the point. That's why we're. Because neither did they take it seriously. That's the point. That's what I'm trying to get to.

They're not taking it seriously. So we're like, what the fuck? This is a serious thing. And if you have a teenager who's manic depressive back then, bipolar now, that's horrifying. It's a bad thing. And you need to help the person. And obviously, yeah. So don't be like, they're laughing at bipolar.

No, we're not. It's a danger to herself and others we're not yeah it's not at all nothing funny about it and we know that we all we have we have our own fucking issues so don't worry see a therapist every two weeks there you go so uh she graduates from chatham high school in 1963 here uh but there's also a problem before the graduation she apparently was physically abused by her parents pretty good, but nothing more than was, well, we thought it was at first.

Back then, people hit their kids. That's it. In the 50s, if your kid acted up, you smacked them. There wasn't like, don't smack the kids.

It wasn't even considered. It was just, that's what you do. So, I mean, it's a sliding scale of really what was acceptable here, but her dad apparently used to really go overboard with it and uh all the way up until she was 15 as well which is it's a little late it's a long time

at that i mean that's 15 15 i had a 15 year old girl let me hit a little girl period if you're a father how do you do that i've whacked my daughter in the ass and i'll be honest with you it sucks it hurts i've never had my little girl when my when my mom used to say this is gonna hurt me more than it hurts yeah i don't believe her to this day yeah yeah but i can say that to my i promise you because i never hurt her no but and even just like the guilt of anything right bopping her on the ass like inside i'm like what'd you make me do that no good that feels awful. Yeah. She would later say that her father would be, quote, hitting her in places where she shouldn't have been hit, is the way she put it. I don't know what that means, but you can take from that whatever you want. That was her statement.

I mean, the face is somewhere you shouldn't be hit. The face is somewhere you shouldn't be hit. I don't know if he was, like, you know, popping her in the genitalia or what. That'd be a weird punishment. Punching her. Let me kick you in the pussy is a weird punishment to level on any child. You know what it is. Bend over.

That's so strange. So I don't know. I got to get low for this, too. Yeah. It's fucking ridiculous. Bend over and spread them. That's not. That's not a weird way of punishment.

So she graduates in her yearbook. The summation under her yearbook picture was, quote, Her ways are the ways of pleasantness. Oh, OK. Her biography said that that she was either going to be an airplane stewardess or was going to have a modeling career is what it said. or was going to have a modeling career, is what it said. That's what her friend said here. Called her a, quote, sweet, kind, pretty girl who was very tall and carried herself nicely. Oh, yeah. Yeah, a lot of girls back then, if they were tall, they would hunch over.

She didn't give a shit. Proud of herself. Proud of herself. In her biography, on her yearbook there, it said that she was a graduate of the Barbizon Modeling School and was, quote, partial to a green Impala. was a graduate of the Barbizon Modeling School and was, quote, partial to a green Impala. So much like Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg, she preferred a 6'4 Impala in green, though.

That's what she liked. That's hysterical. That's pretty fucking awesome. That's what she was partial to. I'll show Jimmy here. This is her yearbook picture there. There she is. There she is there.

Very pretty girl. Beautiful, yeah. Tell me Agnes, though, isn't the... Ag There she is. There she is there. Very pretty girl. She's beautiful, yeah. Tell me Agnes, though, isn't the... Agnes gets down. Agnes is dirty, I can tell. That's her. She didn't win prom queen either. No, Agnes is...

She's too dirty. No, Agnes is dirty. No, Agnes doesn't want prom queen. No. Agnes didn't go to the prom. She's like, fuck those fucking losers. She's out drinking a fifth. That's what I'm saying.

In the back of a fucking rat rod. Agnes is my girl there. I like her out of everybody in this. She's the one I'm picking'm picking she's in the back of a car that wasn't a convertible but now it is now it is she's like yeah now i can feel yeah she's like with kaniki in the back of a or worse that dude that was supposed to be 18 the old guy was like 72 years old i think i was like 55 hanging out so was his girlfriend who came to the dance right she was fucking forget about it she was like 46 she's dancing with john travolta blowing danny olivia newton john's jealous of this right why she's friends with my ma what are you doing it's just my ma's

friend what are you jealous of she went to college with my ma in the 40s what are you talking about so uh speaking of Rizzo's legit blowing gray bush oh yeah she's like all about it yeah so speaking of college Kathleen attends Douglas College uh first she attends a community college and she attends Douglas College then the women's college uh women's college at Rutgers, she also attends. There she meets a young man. Hell yeah. 1969, she meets Peter A. Cook, who is a graduate student at Rutgers, and he's an English fellow. Yeah.

He's from Bedfordshire, England. Bedfordshire, England. Bedfordshire, England. There we go. All right. Sounds beautiful, right? That's wonderful. All right.

england there we go all right it sounds beautiful that's wonderful all right uh yeah so she meets him at college at rutgers there and uh they become very close and they marry in 1969 so there you go for what i can't help i'm just laughing so hard because i can see yeah peter cook and like calling out mom you're not gonna believe it i'm at some gash yeah in terms of the jimmy i forced jimmy to watch the in-betweeners it's an english special it's just a bunch of teenage english boys that are just trying to get women and they're running around they say the most horrible things and they don't know any better and it's funny as shit well they do the one guy says horrible things and all the other ones are even like yeah that's not okay but he always he calls women everything is let's go get some gash like it's not good it's a obviously not how you're supposed to react but god damn it is it funny in an english accent coming from a child

i gotta say my head is jay i'm not gonna believe it i met some clunge i i now i i see him more as will actually all right i see him more as Will. Fingers crossed. Graduate student. Yeah. I met a girl. She's lovely. She's lovely. It's all excited, telling his mom. I hope it's him. Yeah, I hope it's him.

Let's hope so. Let's hope it's Will. Yeah. Let's hope it's not Neil. That would be a mess. So, yeah. So they're married in 1969. He has a ton of spunk.

A ton of spunk. He's got an ungodly amount of spunk in him. That was the line. That was the line from Inbetweeners. It's on Netflix. Go watch it. It's fantastic.

Tremendous. Yeah, go watch the Inbetweeners. It's ridiculous. So 1969, they get married. She's still in school. He's a graduate student. He's also obviously a graduate student that came across the pond the study he's obviously you know academically rigorous academically rigorous as well as he's got a little bit of cash that's obvious yes that's the other

thing too he probably comes from a decent family let's say uh she is not done with school after rutgers women's college here she decides you know what i'm gonna go i want to go to medical school wow um so i'm gonna go i'll want to go to medical school. Wow. So I'm going to go to Harvard Medical School. That's where I choose. That's where she goes. She goes to Harvard Medical School. She gets into Harvard Medical School. And this isn't a time when a lot of women were doing this,

and they definitely weren't encouraged to be doing this. They were starting to be at this point, but it was rare, as we'll talk about how rare. Yeah, her friends at this point called her wasn't it was rare as we'll talk about how rare um yeah her friends at this point called her quote strikingly uh attractive they called her a well-dressed blonde who loved to snorkel ski and sail wow so she's like she's living a life man she's going to harvard she's tall and pretty and sailing and fucking snorkeling off the side of her sailboat this sounds wonderful uh her her best friend who we we'll talk to throughout this whole thing here, Charlotte Karash is her name.

She called Kathy, quote, she was outgoing, bubbly, and fun to be with. She always wanted to be noticed. That was her best friend from back then. In 1973, she graduates from Harvard Medical School. Jesus, she's doing great. She's a doctor. Oh, yeah. She's an intern and a surgery resident, too.

She's going to be a surgeon at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston after she graduates in 73 up until 75 when she became the first woman to be appointed a urology resident at that hospital. She's unbelievable. Yeah. She breaks barriers. She's really a brilliant and ballsy and assertive person. See what happens when you beat your kids. Get shit done. Apparently, if you tell them they're not good enough,

here's the thing. They'll go show you. This is what happens, though. If you tell them they're not good enough just enough, they become groundbreaking doctors. If you tell them too much then they believe it and they go out and do terrible things and they end up on other episodes of our show if you tell them not enough then they become comedians right

and then if you tell them not at all yeah then it's a different thing so there's a there's such a scale you know so that's the problem to make up their own mind uh how great they are and that could that's dangerous that's dangerous also oh boy i don't know maybe this was the right way to go but there's too many there's far too many people that think they're amazing and they certainly are not no well everybody a lot of them far too many now her parents you how proud would you be if your daughter graduated from harvard medical school and then became the first woman resident of anything at some hospital would you be like the most proud parent on earth i'd be beside myself and probably writing uh parenting

books because i deserve it i'm the greatest parent look what i've done right this is yeah you how would you not i mean but the kid i'd be so proud of the kid uh her parents james james and adele not so much no uh no um i mean not impressed not that impressed i i mean they were she said yeah that's great but they're only giving you all this credit because you're a woman you should have been a boy to begin with and then you just you'd just be doing this this is what you should be doing i don't know why you're you're acting like this is such a big deal right because you're a girl and it's like doing this. This is what you should be doing. I don't know why you're acting like this is such a big deal because you're a girl. And it's like, again, this fucking phantom penis

that just doesn't exist. If it was on you, nobody would be making such a big deal. Don't get so high on yourself. You'd just be another urologist. He was like, don't be so high on yourself. There's plenty of guys doing this already. And yeah, so relax. Wow.

Not too impressed. How about the fact that doing it took a lot because she has to go against dudes? Not only that, and a lot of she also stayed like this. There's a picture later on where I'll post it as on our social media as a picture of the at small town murder on at small town murder on Instagram at murder. Small Twitter at smalltownmurder on Instagram, at murdersmall, Twitter, at smalltownpod, Facebook. I'll post the picture of her from this era when she's a doctor. And she's gorgeous, this woman, too.

She doesn't try. A lot of women back then, and I just read this from women that would say this professional women back then that would be in male-dominated fields, law and medicine and things like that they would purposely make themselves as unattractive as possible really absolutely because they didn't want to be judged they didn't want to be thought of as because back then they go out pretty girl

oh we got us coffee you know what i mean it's like they wanted to be taken seriously yeah they thought they couldn't be attractive and taken seriously a lot of comics do that absolutely so much yeah i think they do that on stage because i don't think it's that no well they think they don't want to piss off the women in the crowd but at the same time also it's another reason a lot of them are just have fucked up childhoods and don't want to look good for other reasons or don't are trying to repel people for other reasons they don't that's a comic thing by the way i don't mean women common i mean men comics it's just a comic thing you just don't want to be looking better than the women because women will not come see you

if you are far too hot. Yeah. Or they'll or you have to be a certain again, a little too much. And then you end up being some of these women. Yeah. They'll all go up to. Yeah. Elijah Schlesinger.

They'll all go out to her show. Just fine. Right. And go see her. But she will on her shows like her comedy shows. Yeah. She'll wear like shitty jeans and a shitty t-shirt. Yeah. Pony t like shitty jeans just because she doesn't want to go get all dressed up yeah well then there's a whole theory behind it tasha leggero the opposite who wears like a ball gown a side note here i opened

for her one time i opened for she does i opened for her one time by the way sweet as shit oh my god wonderful person eliza is one of the greatest people I've ever met. Tasha Legere was just very good to me, the other comics. Sweet, great, nice person, great comic, everything like that. But she came in from the back of the club, which the stage door is on the stage. That's where the comics leave. She said, introduce me, and then I'm going to come in from the back of the club with a basket full of roses and throw roses to the side as i come down the aisle from the back well the odd thing is the other two comics before her myself and the other guy had come out from the stage so that's where the people are looking for her to come out right so they don't know that she's coming from behind

them so there's just a weird lady throwing roses at the back of our heads and literally people getting hit in the face with roses going, ow, Jesus, because they didn't know it was coming because they didn't see her coming. And it's dark as fuck in there. And it's dark as fuck. I'm like, this isn't going the way you wanted it to go, I don't think. Has anybody seen her recently?

I don't know if she still does that. She figured out a way to make that work. It's a great idea. It's funny, though. It's funny after that. And it was pretty funny because she got up there and went, Jesus Christ, pitting people in the back of the head with flowers. So it kind of worked.

I'm so sorry. It's a good thing I didn't get those five-foot long ones. Yeah. Oh, boy. Fucking whipping them around the room. So 1979 comes along, and she ends up getting a divorce from her husband here. From Peter? From Peter.

Peter A. Cook here. Peter says, quote, I think we came to an understanding that her principal emotional relationship was medicine rather than with me uh so that's that's fair she loves her job she was into her career and didn't want to make didn't want to have a balance she wanted to have she was more interested in her career and hey you know what they didn't have any kids or anything like that so that's just two adults whether they're alive they got together in college yeah pre-medical school. They didn't know this is where their lives were going to go.

Shit happens. People decide they want different things in their lives. That's why you don't get married when you're fucking in your early 20s. It's a good reason for it here. Especially today. Yeah, Jesus Christ. Back then it was normal. But yeah, she, at this point by 1979, she's a fellow at the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York.

Sloan Kettering. Yes, Sloan Kettering. She is also appointed chief of the urology division at Rutgers Medical School in 1982 and was chief urologist at Rutgers Main Teaching Hospital, Middlesex General in New Brunswick. It's now Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital. Wow. And the medical school is also robert wood so there's that um yeah she at that point was one of only six board certified women urologists in

the united states on six six now dad six now no no if it if you were a man there'd just be six there should be five and then you with the other men that's how it should be these five women should be you know it should be without you right tell you what why are you telling them you're a woman pretend you're a man make me proud so six people sick one of six which is a man and the one of the it's weird one of the other six reading this article was a woman in Fishkill, New York, which is where Racist Nan lived. Right. And I remember seeing her office and seeing that name all the time. And I read the name. I went, that's familiar.

She was one of the six only women urologists in the whole country. One of six. Was in that town. Yeah. It was like an hour north of the city. Oh, so it's only six women. Six women. Yeah.

Board certified women urologists. In the United States. In the United States. There's only six women. Six women, board-certified women urologists in the United States. There's only six. Which is fucking crazy. She's also appointed associate professor of surgery at the medical school as well. This is insane here. Chief of urology at Middlesex General Hospital. Wild stuff here.

Additional specialty training as a medical oncology fellow at sloan kettering also there and uh she's just crushing it i mean it's sloan kettering and mount sinai are the two best right in the country i don't know i think i'm not sure they sound good hopkins uh john johns hopkins i don't know these are the three clinics i know there's mayo clinics but i don't know what they specialize in because there's a mayoics where people go for certain things. But Sloan-Kettering's a big fucking deal. Yeah, it's a cancer center. Yeah, it's a big cancer center in New York there.

So, yeah, she thought that the, she felt that the situation would change and that she thought more women would enter urology. She said that the common misunderstanding, she was being interviewed in all sorts. And there's New York Times articles about her just because she's so impressive uh she explained that uh that people think that urologists only treat men but they don't obviously i mean that's the dude's gynecologist i just found that out recently yeah but also women have also urological right of course there's all sorts of shit but there's a whole system that goes on in there uh but that's our dick doc that's the dick yeah so uh the professor and chairman of surgery uh here dr james w mckenzie said quote we are just extremely pleased that dr hagan has joined us

she's a superb doctor uh they said they she was selected from many candidates not uh nominated during a two-year search for that position they found her uh she says that uh yeah these facts are insane she's that impressive really uh she says quote historically very few women choose seem to choose surgery and urology has a prerequisite a prerequisite of two to three years of general surgery so she said it's even rarer that they go through that and then that also right it's all six of them that's we've been searching for two years for her for her yeah now dad it's it's honestly amazing uh she said more women in medicine are now pursuing careers other than the traditional

pediatrics and gynecology that's where women traditionally went back in the day children and vaginas um she said this tumbling block is there's so few women in surgery, but lifestyles are changing. It just feels, doesn't that feel shitty too? Yeah, it does. But that's what she's interested in. I know there's more to it. You guys can be doctors,

but we just need you to look after the babies and the vaginas. That's what it is. Yeah, worry about what you got and we don't have time for kids either. Take care of that. Yeah, no, that's what it was. Wow. Yeah, that was the traditional way it went i think

that's the way women were steered kind of like oh yeah you want to know about this pediatrics there they weren't steered to go into you know uh urological surgery that wasn't what they were only six were obviously uh she said that she but she also says in this article this is in 1984 that she has never felt uncomfortable or bothered by sexual discrimination i don't know if it's that high of a level yeah it's just you're all so fucking smart that it doesn't matter right i don't know if it's that that you're just like you're only care about the person's academics or brain if you're i wouldn't think so i would think in such a male dominated field like field i don't know or i't know if maybe they... I don't know if that got her special attention

because she was different. Dr. Ruth's been doing this for so long. I want some advice, like words from her. We don't even know if she's a fucking doctor. We don't even know if that... I don't know if she's a doctor. Dr. Joyce Brothers isn't a fucking doctor, so how do I know Dr. Ruth is a doctor?

She seems to know a lot of stuff about dicks and shit, but I mean, I don't know. She's an old lady. Maybe she's just seen a lot of dicks. Maybe. She could just be, you know. I fuck a lot of people. I have much

sex through years. I tell you all about the penis. I've been on the planet for 7,000 years. How many penis I've seen? So many generation decade war zones. I see men penis their son, their son, great great five generation penis, one family.

They all taste the same. Yeah. They produce an unholy amount of spunk. So she said, she said, quote, I had the opportunity to be in to be in excellent institutions. And so my ability was never questioned. I didn't really think about it. You simply think of yourself as a urologist or a surgeon. Yeah.

Dr. George Prout, who was chief of her department at this point, said, quote, she was smart and she was a very meticulous surgeon. There's no question that Kathy did have sometimes what we would call a short fuse um kathy's very smart she's also very meticulous and things need to be the way they are and she gets angry and flies off the handle if it's not the way she is she's uh because let's not forget too she has some mental illness issues and uh back then the medication it was either back then they'd give you lithium or nothing right so either make it so you're a there you go go lay down for a while or you had to just deal with it so also if you're as successful as she's been through her life and she has mental illness mental illness it's kind of been uh not diagnosed yeah

somebody that's that successful you look at them go they're fine they're fine yeah there's no problem and she thinks of that too i must be fine everything's going great yeah so yeah but somebody that's that achieving and has done that many things anything that's little that she sees as something that's out of place or not done right she's got to go i can fucking do it why can't you fucking do it you're an idiot and she freaks out and i think also it becomes a matter of when someone's really good at someone like something like that like a urological surgeon and shit they almost become like uh they get the same syndrome as like a celebrity yeah where they no one tells them their behavior is crazy because what they're doing is good and important and whatever whatever they think it is so they just let it go and then it

snowballs and people just act even more and more however they are because no one's telling them that's wrong. And then you have Charlie Sheen. Exactly. You have people like that out of fucking control.

So it happens all the time. How many goddamn comedians have you done before like that? Oh, loyal boy. I want a chicken. Not from here. Okay.

Where then? Fly it in. It needs to be organic. It's 1030 on a Saturday night. Where the fuck am I going to get an organic? My girlfriend needs an organic chicken in the comedy club green room right now or I can't perform. There's a little thermometer that gets really hot and you put it in cold water and it makes the water hot. I want that.

I want that. We can get you like a pot that's hot. Not good enough. God damn it. i want the thermometer heater fucking thing look like i want the chicken and the chicken what do i look like both i got a lot of things you look like motherfucker i'm telling you yeah i'm telling you there's so we've seen that happen and so this if someone's actually intelligent that's just someone who came up with a few dick jokes right that caught on this is fucking you know someone's actually working hard and brilliant

she uh meets another man in 1983 she's at a dance club at the jersey shore which sounds sounds well beneath her it does just guidos and dipshits and teased hair everywhere and she's a one of six woman urologists in the entire united states dancing with these idiots but she meets a man there not a guido actually she meets a guy who's an industrial engineer what a smart and successful man she was as amazed as we are i'm shocked that these two people were both in a jersey shore dance club in 1983 is shocking to me. It's crazy. Everyone else.

Imagine the IQ that they brought up just on the, you know, on the average. There had to have been a moment where like one of them was just exhaustedly said, I can't fucking believe I'm here. Yeah. And then somebody, the other one next to him, whether it was him or her, went fucking me too. Unbelievable. She walked up and went, all right.

All right. I got the, fucking me too. Unbelievable. She walked up and went, all right. All right. And I got the fuck out of there. Done. So, yeah, he worked at Motion Systems, a small industrial components maker in Eatonton, New Jersey, which we know about. We've done that one. We've done that one. So he's very successful. He likes that she's successful.

And, you know, he digs that. Because honestly, especially in the 80s, it would take a certain man to be okay with this. In the 80s, men were different and they weren't looking for women who were ultra successful in their own careers where they work 18 hours a day and have New York Times articles written about them. And he was like, fucking cool. Yeah. Yeah, you're smart. I like that. So that's cool. So yeah, he was into her and uh they get married in 1984 uh now they end up not having any children

she wants children uh but he doesn't want children he already has sons from a previous marriage and uh yeah he doesn't want to start another family over so they end up not really having children here well not really it's they don't either have them over. So they end up not really having children here. Well, not really. They don't. You either have them or you don't. You can't not really have children. They sort of had some kids. I don't know. I mean, there's some kids around.

They might have been theirs. I don't know. Those fucking kids they were. Who am I to tell you whose kids anybody is, you know? I shouldn't assume. I can't just judge kids running around. Could be anybody's. But she was excited.

This was a new chapter in her life, and she wanted to be married. She didn't want Could be anybody. But she was excited. This was a new chapter in her life, and she wanted to be married. She didn't want to be alone. And her friend, Korash, that we talked about before, her best friend for 20 years, last name of Korash here, she says, quote,

I was excited for Kathy. I felt he was a good partner for her. Both extremely bright, intelligent, driven, focused people. Yeah. Wow. That's what you would expect yeah and this is a good time for her to get married too once her career is established she's a little older she knows who she is she knows what she does yeah this is a marriage that

can work unlike yeah unlike in college when you know with peter you don't have jobs yet right you get married now what are you crazy i don't even know what you're doing we don't even know what our schedules are going to be like what are where we're going to live who knows so uh they say that her her work schedule this is in a new york times article sometimes causes her to work seven days a week and 14 hour days are her usual so seven days a week at that rate that's yeah fucking nuts that's how well think about how many different fucking jobs she has. She's working at five different hospitals. That's probably a drive between them. She's going back and forth.

She's got surgery here, surgery there, paperwork, this, that. Go over here, consult with somebody here. Bop into billing, make sure my mortgage is paid. That's right. Also, too, she might be teaching some things here and there. There's a lot going on. Running some speeches. She's got a lot going on speeches running some speeches you know she's got a lot going on basically uh when she does have free time she spends it as she says in this article

sailing and relaxing with her husband so that's her life it's not bad um yeah not not bad she's still pretty well for herself pretty well for herself i wish it was me not too fucking shabby here um yeah she is honored also in the 80s here. Six distinguished graduates of Rutgers University's Douglas College will be honored with the induction into the Douglas Society. Yeah. There. Anything yet, Dad? Anything?

Where's your dick? I hate that thing you have between your legs. Get those tits off your chest ASAP, fucker. I hate that thing. That between your legs get those tits off your chest asap fucker that you don't have uh the people also uh like people inducted here was an author and a nursing specialist from 19 class of 1941 so she's like the youngest she's the other one it was class of 41 52 64 and then her so she's the youngest one putting this also. Yeah. So, I mean, Jesus Christ, she's got quite the fucking life right now.

It's crazy and impressive. Fuck yeah. Ultra impressive. She keeps working hard through the mid 80s. And that's taxing. Seven days a week, 14 hours a day, a lot of stress. And she's got a lot to live up to. And she's always got to be perfect and always got to be on.

And that's going to take its toll on you after a while. Yeah. You know, and so she started to grow a little bit disenchanted with the structure of the way the medical system works. This is when insurance companies were really... Starting to nitpick things. Nitpick and really conglomerates were starting to happen and penny-pinching things started to happen. Oh, she has seen big pharma create problems.

Yeah, this is like she's watching HMOs take over everything and she does not like it at all. In this sort of industry, urological surgery, people need to be willing to do tests and willing to perform surgeries. And if insurance companies are saying no to those things, that's going to affect your ability to care for people. So she said that she was basically at home. She was it was her only solace from this when she'd go sailing and shit like that. But her friend said the Koresh lady, she said, quote, she liked fixing people, making people better.

And I think she found that paperwork was getting in the way. She wasn't smiling anymore. It was as if it started to become a chore, which sucks. I mean, yeah, she had a because it was way different when she was getting into it, I'm sure. So this is just how it's developing. I can imagine and uh her husband too uh to tyrell here he said that uh that he watched everything become a struggle with her you know that was his name did i just learn that right now his name was tyrell his name was uh we didn't learn that we didn't we just skip over his name yeah he's just uh

good lord a goddamn structural engineer was that what it was? He's an engineer. William. Oh, William. His last name is Tyrell. Yeah, yeah. William Tyrell. Okay. Yeah, William here. That's what I thought him like. I don't think that I learned that.

Okay. Well, William Tyrell is his name, definitely. Yeah, cowboy name. Yeah. So he said here that she complained about not being able to get things to go the way she wanted them to at work, basically. things to go the way she wanted them to at work basically uh so much so that at one point in this mid-80s period she takes to bed for two months she just she said laid down was like i'm not getting up two months just like i've had it i need a two i'm tired break literally i mean i'll be in

bed after all that achieving yeah for 20 years she's done nothing but achieve like two months sleep that ain't nothing yeah Yeah, think about that. Compared to what she deserves. We go on tour for a couple months. We're like, oh, good God, I'm ready to fly. I want to fucking sleep for two months. This lady did 20 years of fighting the odds and busting glass ceilings and doing things that we couldn't do.

And what's the reward? Looking at a sick dick every day. Yeah, sick dicks and paperwork that she doesn't want to fucking do paperwork that now the fucking insurance company is pushing back trying to say i'm not paying you that i'm a coctor how dare you i am a head coctor head coctor many different hospitals so two months unable to work can't do anything uh but lay in bed and just lie down and and be there uh it's at this point too that she starts to she goes to the doctor and they they they re rediscover her bipolar disorder she just

ignored it so now they're like hey listen you're you know you have a problem that you need you know it's an issue people have it and you need to fix it you know and this was in the 80s this is in the 80s so it still wasn't great it had a fucking stigma oh it had a stigma absolutely you can't be a doctor if you've got still has a stigma yeah sure it shouldn't but it still does but back then it was woof i mean it was just you just people would be shunned for that sort of thing you're gonna touch my dick and you got mental problems fuck out of here yeah yeah that's that's what it is uh her husband said also she felt that lawyers were driving doctors out of medicine at the time he said she felt a whole lot of people were involved in medical decisions who shouldn't be.

Instead of providing care to people, she was dancing to the tunes that insurers and whatnot played. So, yeah, she just didn't like it anymore. Buckle up. It's going to get worse. That's it. So, yeah, she ends up taking a bed for two months and being hospitalized for a few weeks after that. Yeah, she's just completely she's had like a nervous breakdown this is like this sounds like the old school nervous breakdown like someone just couldn't take it anymore um she's they said she suffered

from bipolar she was put on medication uh after that and once she got out of the hospital she was resumed work really and had no effects was fine i was back on track the medication helped her out yeah and uh yeah she continued to work and was fine um her friend here the corash lady said she had no idea what was going on with her at all um she just said uh and her husband said quote my reaction was that if she was unhappy with it then fine we'll do something else like if you want to be a doctor great we'll do whatever you want you know go sell fucking you probably made a shit pile of money go sell oranges on the freeway i don't care just you know just be happy yeah exactly you've done enough you've achieved plenty yeah you know you've probably done pretty well we've

probably got some money in the bank buy a fucking wendy's that's yeah why so yeah there you go subway there you go get a dunkin donuts and knock yourself out yeah so 1987 uh she decides she's done with medicine yeah done it's over done uh this is yeah she decides it's over in 1987 so much so i mean this is extremely over there's over and then there's this uh she decides instead that her and her husband, William are going to move to the Virgin islands to operate a bed and breakfast to operate an in it's over. She fuck that's, that's two people going cash it out. Don't care.

Don't care anymore. Don't care anymore. Not doing this shit. Not dealing with any of you fucking people. Not dealing with traffic, not going into New York city and fighting an album. Not doing it. I'm done. I'm fucking done. Virgin islands, relaxing, not dealing with traffic right not going into new york city and fighting an album not doing it i'm

done i'm fucking done virgin islands relaxing sit there and recover from problems would you like paper or plastics there yeah they're telling everybody they're telling everybody yeah and raven going to the virgin island someone just said all right and they were like ah let me tell you about the virgin island and 1312 is your change sir thank you yeah said his wife had was she talked about making a change and they'd taken vacations to saint thomas and uh that's they had built a vacation house down there saint thomas is so expensive it's the most expensive place going yeah um they built a vacation just that area yeah fucking crazy but saint thomas is like especially crazy

yeah i was actually yeah i was reading uh anthony bourdain was writing about how stupid it is basically uh back in the day before he died obviously he hated it yeah he like he had some other island that he liked that was like you know kind of a dirty shitty island and he met some lady who fucking drug him to st thomas and it was a mess and it's expensive and it's all rich douchebags and oh yeah he called it uh euro do douches and euro douches of all stripes it's like okay very good his books are fucking hilarious the euro douche is a special euro douche yeah it's a great story about some crazy woman he met that was like some crazy russian woman who yeah it's funny they fucked like crazy and did coke and fucked and like wanted to kill her and dump her off a cliff somewhere

and then i was like just an overnight with her she yeah she ended up being like uh having like russian organized crime connections and shit it was a crazy story it's fun spent like six hours with her and this is all that happened yeah i think it's medium raw in one of his last books. It's a funny book. So anyway, they took all these vacations down there, decided that they're going to do it. And they pondered buying a business and running a business down there. So they find in 1987 the Villa Olga, which is a small hotel and restaurant in St. Thomas. It had once been the Russian consulate, But now it's a small hotel and restaurant.

She sounds hideous. Olga? Villa Olga? Now, William, her husband, said they got a long-term lease on the property for about $600,000. In 80s money. That's a lot of money. From Richard

Domingue, who was the general manager down there. And they said that the general manager who signed the lease with them, said that the end seemed like it was more of William's dream than her dream at the time. But they shared all the responsibility equally. She converted to part time status at the medical school. And then finally, they moved down to St. Thomas completely. They renamed the hotel the west indies in beautiful and uh they spent several hundred thousand dollars to enlarge it to 19 rooms from eight rooms wow that's a lot they really doubled it more than doubled the size of

the place spent a shitload so they're over a million deep into this thing down there uh which seems really good and things were going great 87 88 they said this was like the high time like because this the economy was still good and things were things were crushing and uh then 1989 came along and hurricane hugo fucked that island up took it all bad really did really screwed up the inn damaged it really bad. They repaired it and reopened it and things like that. But then after that, there was the Gulf War and the economy crashed in the early 90s, if you remember, 90, 91, 92. And things just went in the toilet for all the luxury things kind of went away like that.

And yeah, things were not going well. Once the hurricane came, her friend said uh the korash lady said about her quote she was frustrated she was depressed she was talking a mile a minute on the phone screaming and yelling she was out of control wow which sounds manic she was in a you know mile a minute can't even understand her uh so i mean this is bad too this wasn't only them going under major corporations were going under this was like the the final straw for like pan am airlines and eastern airline all these airlines went out of business oh god 90 91 89 through 92 that's they all crashed america west went away all crashed and died is a bad way to put it america west didn't go away till later they

were bought out they were bought out but they were bought out in like 94, 95? No, because they named the arena that was built here, America West Arena, 92. But that went away quick. No, that was America West until like 2000 or something. Then it was U.S. Airways after that or something. And then U.S. Airways got bought too. Because it got sold. So many times.

But these just went out of business, these airlines. Just over. Yeah, they were done. Okay. So, yeah, that's what ended up happening here. They were absorbed by other companies, though, weren't they? Some of them. Because they had to to get some money out?

Some of them were. They would sell their assets, their fleets and shit. Yeah, the routes were worth something and whatever. But the problem is that once that happened, there was people who couldn't get flights down to the island. Because Eastern Airlines was the one that would go down there all the time. So once they didn't get figured out yet but every time every you know every people that can't find a flight down there and decide not to book it just don't go they just don't go and that's money out of their pockets here so it's it's a rough time here so from 87 to 92 they live in saint thomas

they operate the inn and everything like that um but the the uh also she's going back visiting her parents frequently because her parents are getting older at this point so she's going back and visiting them back in new jersey and all that sort of thing uh finally they they ended up having to leave the business and give up in 92 their landlord there said quote they had put so much of their blood sweat and tears into the place and it got so severely damaged. They just didn't have the energy to do it again. Their time here took a toll on them as a couple, as it would. That's just brutal. That's just a lot going on.

You're in business together, and you're together all the time. And it's not going well. Right. It's tough. And there's actual projects to be done. Watch Kitchen Nightmares and watch a restaurant that's not going well. It's run by a couple. They want to kill each other because the chicken parm doesn't come out right you know like it's there's nothing to do with them it's just when things don't go

bad don't go well or a couple that flips houses or a couple that that buys those fucking storage units any of that they're always pissed at each other those weird weird businesses like that creates too much tension absolutely uh so uh will, the husband here, 92, he returns to motion systems as an engineer. So he gets a good job back again, which is good. She stays in St. Thomas to try to sell the lease to somebody, try to salvage something out of this. She remains down there for about a year, unsuccessfully, never gets to sell the lease. And finally, the landlord takes it back. She remains down there for about a year, unsuccessfully, never gets to sell the lease, and finally the landlord takes it back.

In the end, her husband, William, said they lost about $250,000 out of the whole thing. It's not bad. Which isn't terrible. You have insurance and things, but still, $250,000 for five years living on an island. Right. You know what I mean? Five years you lived in fucking St. Thomas. Not New Jersey.

Not bad. You essentially paid rent for five years yeah fairly fairly expensive spent 50 grand a year in rent which i mean you lived in saint thomas what do you want now when she got back her father james told her that she was very disappointed oh no um a for leaving her successful career that made him semi-proud, even though she has no penis. Yeah. But now, and then he went down there. Not only did you give that up, you went down to the island, and you're a fucking failure down there. Right.

You're a loser. He told her, quote, you should have stuck to what you know. Yeah. Is what he told her. 250 grand would have bought a cock. She thought that the same thing. So I don't think that was helping here. So, yeah, they end up buying a house in New Jersey.

And, yeah, she started doing unpaid research at Robert Wood Johnson, where she used to be in charge of things, using rats to develop treatment for bladder cancer. She's like doing unpaid research there. She lives down the street, though the corash lady her you know high school friend which is kind of cool uh william goes back to his old job but she her friend said her life seemed pretty kind of aimless she was doing this unpaid research but she wasn't really into it uh that sort of thing um they would hang out all the time her and her friend and that was good but corash said quote she was spending more and more time alone um she started doing some weird shit at this point yeah she started doing things like obsessively clipping

coupons not coupons that they were even going to use she just cooped she just was obsessed with them she that was something she could control i can control perforated line i can control i can cut them straight yeah i get it man dude as someone who like is very very on the fucking fence with like ocd shit sure i totally have to force myself to not do shit like this like not coupons but i'm weird dude i got weird there's a reason why the show is meticulously put together because i'm fucking insane that's why it's not i'm not believe me i travel with you i see you've got to have your fucking paper boarding pass yeah i have weird things and i'm just like what the fuck are you doing that you got it on your phone so you don't have to have that but then it's in my pocket and i

gotta get it and it's connected to my headphones and i'm gonna hand it to them and then i don't like it so that's what i mean there's things that i have i make this life easy and you make it hard i think things out very i really think down the line a long way well if i do this and there's this yeah so i get where she's going you play life is like a chess move oh yeah you gotta think seven moves ahead yeah to try to make this move valuable absolutely seven moves from now i don't want to be like why did i do that in one i could have been farther along i could have been on step eight cheeseburger sure i'll have that at 11 30 at night oh i ate pizza rolls at four in the morning don't get me wrong but that's just because for some reason my gastrointestinal system hasn't caught

caught up to my age yet caught up to me when i was like i don't know 21 huh real two days ago monday night after we recorded crime and sports at four o'clock in the morning i had 27 pizza rolls pepperoni pizza rolls at four o'clock that's fascinating because at that same time i had woken up from a deep sleep to take a shit because i ate a fucking salad when i got home that night it felt great i passed out it felt wonderful i'm like oh yeah italian dressing i can't eat that oh jesus i can't do that that's fascinating 27. I can't do that. That's fascinating. 27 pizza rolls, smoke a bowl, and you're sleeping, boy. Let me tell you.

That's a good night's rest. And I'm sitting on a toilet shaking my head going, you know you can't do this. You can't have a salad past 730, asshole. What's wrong with you? How dare you? Far too much oil on that. Jesus Christ. So she is obsessively clipping coupons and hoarding flower pots oh what what why is that a thing i don't know that's what i mean this is her mind things she's controlling

these are she's controlling these things i have these flower pots and i can control one of the first hoarders yeah she's hoarding those she's clipping coupons she's just got these weird quirks that they're those are two things that that's all she's doing yeah it's okay they're quirks they're quirks she's i don't know she likes flower pots whatever you know what i mean you you can ignore that shit if your wife is normal in every other aspect and she's got a bunch of flower pots like yeah whatever she collects flower pots or something i don't fucking know depends on how busy it is if it's like you get in your car and you pull out and you hear some rattling you're like what the fuck you get in the trunk it's just full of new pots you're like what the fuck you're covering your yard i can't get out

can you move your pot so i can get out of the driveway can't get out of the drive you go to pull in the garage at the end of the day a wall of flower pots uh-oh and they're all the same you could have just bought one you know there's a lot here and the coupons like we don't even use coupons why are all of these flower pots full of coupons yeah that's jesus christ man but she's down she's just down her husband said quote she quit medicine and we had quit the hotel business she had to be an achiever to do what she had done when an achiever isn't achieving they aren't as happy yeah yeah that's absolutely this is like these guys who you know are you know are a major star

baseball player for 15 years and they don't have the fuck to do afterwards yeah i have no idea what do you do now it's terrifying that's yeah once you get to the mountaintop and you're 34 what do you do then there's nothing up there yeah then what i mean it's one thing to you know if you're already tired but if you're still have energy and you have nowhere else to go. So, yeah, she was just having a lot of problems here. And their marriage was affected by this. She said or he said, William said, quote, she made sure she was the center of attention in some cases. And that didn't sit well with some people.

She said he says that if a waiter was unresponsive she would make it clear what she thought uh what she thought of his inattentiveness like she would be loudly complaining about the waiter and things like that or it's like oh boy there we go uh one time at the conclusion of a sailboat race that they participated in in saint thomas apparently she got into an argument with another competitor it's a sailboat race in St. Thomas. You're supposed to be a carefree, dickwit, fucking rich asshole. Just sail and drink your champagne and shut the fuck up. What are you doing?

Get your balls off that those people take this shit more serious than you do. Yeah, isn't this funny? Apparently, though, yeah. He said after they got into the car, he said that she was so irritated that she bit his hand he was like hey calm down and put his hand on her arm and she fucking bit him wow that's how upset she was tell me to calm down about like he was just like it's okay honey and she was like i just bit him like a fucking she he was like whoa hey too heavy you fucking jerk wow Wow, calm down. Yeah. So and then another time.

So, I mean, that's showing it's some odd behavior. And then the hoarding pots and the coupon clipping comes in the 90s when they move back to New Jersey. Then 1995, William goes on his motorcycle to visit a friend. By the way, there's a pretty good chance that he's having affairs at this point as well by the mid-90s here. He goes and takes his motorcycle to visit a friend. A few blocks from their home, he stops at a stop sign

and then he drives on. By the way, he has limited vision in his left eye due to a childhood bicycle accident, which means you probably shouldn't be riding a motorcycle if you can't even fucking see. Let's see. How unsafe is this anyway? Let's see. How could I

make it more unsafe? How completely ridiculous of a conveyance am I riding right now? I've just sat atop a motor and I'm going to just drive this down the street with 4,000 pound cars. That's reasonable. And an iPad. On top of that, I can't see him coming.

Yes, this is dangerous enough for me perfect lord was he like jumping things on the way as well as a badass i guess so uh well for a minute anyway uh he didn't see a car coming on his left where his vision's fucked up and uh he was hit by a car yeah hard and a number of his ribs were broken and his left leg was what's called mangled. That's the way that's what they called it. Mangled. You get that pinned against a bike by a 4000 pound car. Yeah. Mangled is the outcome.

Mangled. He says, William says, quote, Kathy was at home. She had been out grocery shopping when this occurred and was very concerned about getting home and putting the frozen groceries away. I was appalled. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see your leg is mangled, but I bought some frozen peas, and they get weird. I've got pizza rolls.

If you defrost them and then re-freeze them, they're not right. Yeah, I got pizza rolls. So it'll all leak. The sauce is going to leak out, and then it's going to be dry pepperoni in there. It's not good. So his leg was mangled, and the doctor said they made a decision to have it amputated. He's going to lose his fucking leg. It's going to be eyeless and legless.

Yeah. He says, William says, quote, she was very upset about it, screaming and yelling and carrying on. She felt it was a it was a thing being done without her good advice. She thought this is something i actually know about medicine no one asked me right she showed up and he just said yeah they're gonna amputate my leg and she was like nobody fucking consulted me about this shit maybe you should have talked to me i'm your wife and oh a doctor of some renown i could probably save it i might

be or at least i would know if it's the right thing to do. What an idea. So her friend here, Koresh, said she really, this is the point where Kathy really spiraled out of control. She said, quote, Kathy had become severely depressed to the point of psychosis. She had been hearing voices. She lost it. She went mad. Oh, my God.

She went off the deep end here. Yeah, the doctor said they could try to save his leg but it could mean years of operations that might not even work and it might it might end up making you sick all the time or they could just amputate it and that'll be that you won't have a leg but you'll be healthy otherwise and uh she was adamant that he keep the leg uh kathy was she said at one point she william said at one point she said to me i'm not going to let anyone cut your leg off i said no one's going to tell me what i can or can't do is what he said back to her like if i want to cut my leg off i'll have it fucking cut off it's not up to you um so

this was going on like days went by of where they were deciding whether they were going to amputate his leg and at this point he he wasn't eating because he was sick from this he was losing a pound a day withering away in this hospital bed and he decided to have the leg amputated that's it um she said uh that that was it he said i'm not doing this anymore i'm getting it taken care of and this this was enough that was final straw final straw um when he left the hospital he checked into a motel and he said their marriage was over from this whole thing he checked out he checked out went to a hotel yeah um it takes him a while to release uh to reach a divorce agreement we'll talk about all that during this time period where they're apart yeah but not divorced she wants wants to reconcile the whole time. She does some weird shit here.

She knows that her husband likes to visit a quote go-go bar. If that means a strip club. Generally, it's today. You could call that a, is that like a strip club of clothes on? Yes, it's not bikini dancing bullshit.

High boots. What is it? Short skirt with like a school girl. Yes, it's not literally like those 60s go-go shows. That's what's going on is the 60s with like a 60s yes it's not literally like those 60s go-go shows that's what's going on in the 80s yeah the fuck happens today what men want what what do you wants to watch that can mormon i guess i don't know like if you're gonna go out and watch a show watch a good show or see tits but don't do you know the two don't mix usually i don't know it's it's also popular in the gay community too where people think about that women bachelorette parties right bachelorette parties if they have guys going being like i don't see your fucking pussy if they yeah if they have like if they if

they if they have drag go-go shows but that's what people do there's also like a talent for it if you watch 90 day fiance every bachelorette party's at a drag yeah that's every single fucking one they all go to a huge thing yeah that's what they do out there god damn it rupaul yeah well hey whatever that's what they're making so much money that's what the ladies are that's what i mean god damn it good job good idea for you fuck yeah good job good good empire you built here not too shit not that he's making money on drag shows but he's not even just empire it's not it's it's actually like season eight or something like this show's been on forever crushing but it's creating a whole not just an empire for him but for a bunch

of other people it's giving them so much it's beautiful yeah go good for you guys knock yourselves out everybody good for you it does nothing for me i might go see it i'm interested i wouldn't watch the fuck happens anybody do a show where they sing and dance and do bullshit like i don't care if you have a dick, not a dick, tits, not a tit. It doesn't matter. It's just boring. I've done a comedy show in a gay bar after one of those fucking things. And it is crazy the shit that happens in there.

I'm not having a ball. Fuck yeah, it's great. Yeah. We're all for it. We are all for it. So she hears that he likes to go to a go-go bar near his office with coworkers, and it pissed her off. A friend of her, I'm sorry, her divorce lawyer said, quote, she felt it was demeaning, and she was still hoping for a reconciliation. So in September 1996, on a Friday, September, keep that in mind, September, she called the place and told them that she was

going to do a birthday dance on the bar for her husband. His birthday's in May. Okay. It's not even his birthday. Late. So she, a little late. So she gets all dolled up, puts all her makeup on and does all this type of shit and goes to this bar and she gets shit face drunk and climbs up on the

bar and starts doing a strip tease yeah this is strange behavior from this woman uh the bartender interrupts this and calls police yeah uh to get off the she wouldn't get off the fucking bar drunk bitch on my bar won't get off so calls the police so uh the police come and uh they remove her from the premises by the way he wasn't even there her husband william was not there his birthday's not in september and he wasn't even at the fucking bar she's on the stage yeah literally he's not there she's just in her own world she's in her own fucking world and they had separated months before they weren't together they weren't talking like he wanted nothing to do with her. And he wasn't even there.

And she's up on the bar dancing and fighting. Now, the problem is she is fighting once the cops come and she ends up being charged with this whole thing disorderly and her charges are dismissed. But then she files a civil liberties lawsuit. She files a lawsuit against the police department in Eaton to New Jersey for violating her civil liberties in the way they threw her out. Apparently, it's a federal civil rights lawsuit. She filed 1998 against them for apparently is her God given right to dance on the bar and take her clothes off. I'm not sure. Screaming for the onelegged man in the club where everybody has two yeah i feel like that's it i got three for you sweetheart you have some stickhead saying that shit so uh yeah it's a

problem here she didn't know like what to do um and her husband said this is very interesting kind of on that achiever thing that he said before. He said, quote, what do astronauts do after they go to the moon? A number of them have had problems. It's hard for her to live in the aftermath when she's achieved so early. Yeah, you go to the moon, then what? Then you come back and you're like, eh. You drink, I guess.

I don't know. There you go. This place is much better. Yeah, this is A. I really appreciate this. This is a ticket. Yeah, this is much better. Breathing this is A. I really appreciate this. This is a ticket. Yeah, this is much better. Breathing without a mask. No shit.

So 1997, the divorce finally comes through. It includes an agreement here where William will pay her alimony of $65,000 a year for three years. So that's it, though. That's what she gets. $65,000 a year for three years. $195K and she's out.65,000 a year for three years. $195,000 and she's out. Yeah, this is in June of 97. So June of 2000 is when

those payments stop. Just to keep that in mind here. So he's making over $200,000 a year at this point, and she's not making anything. Now, under the terms here, like I said, he's paying her $65,000 a year, and she's also to be covered under his

health insurance plan for three years, that whole deal here. According to the court papers, they had net assets, net assets, mind you, of $1.6 million, most of them acquired during their marriage. The marital assets, she was left with $780,000, and he got about $405,000 of the marital split. He took a house that they lived in when they moved back to new jersey and she took the saint thomas vacation house down there and then they also uh so at the end of this she had uh about over a million dollars in cash and assets at the end of the divorce so not too bad yeah not too shabby. She stays in New Jersey, though. She helps her parents.

This is when she starts spending more and more time with her parents. Her mom's in her 90s now and her dad's in his late 80s. Tropical Storm Floyd hits in 1999. And the neighbors said they saw her helping pump water out of the driveway next to her parents' home. And, you know, she was working around the house to help fix up their house basically um now they're the parents here james and adela are are they're not they're not like known as real outgoing people in the neighborhood um adela is the neighbors say she's often ill you don't see her very often because she's often sick she's in her 90s my grandmother's you know 93 and she doesn't come out very often. She pretty much stays on the couch.

Dad in his 80s oftentimes throwing rocks at the girls in the neighborhood. Obviously, yeah. Where's your penis, you losers? You got an innie instead of an outie. I don't like it. One neighbor said, quote, they kept to themselves. He would take care of the property and do the gardening. There, he said that this guy grew up in the neighborhood. Quote, they kept to themselves. He would take care of the property and do the gardening there.

They said that he said that this guy grew up in the neighborhood. They've lived there since he can remember since he was a small child. And he said that he only visited them when he trick or treated on Halloween. He said, quote, I think they stayed in because she wasn't in very good health, which makes sense. Apparently they'd Idella had trouble breathing when the air quality wasn't great and things like that she she had respiratory issues uh and this this is a very nice street big giant houses and their house is one of the smaller houses on it's it's a it's kind of the shittiest house in the neighborhood it's a lot of other big houses, and they've lived here forever. So then they've never expanded their house or anything like that.

One neighbor said, quote, he was a cheerful guy of James, unless you were a woman. Quote, we really didn't know the woman that well. She stays mostly in the house. The woman. The woman. But James would always be out back taking walks around the block. He would make jokes and warn us about ticks gee what a fun guy he meant dicks yeah he didn't speak very well

it's like you got a dick don't you and they were like yeah he keeps warning us about ticks what a sweet old man yeah i tucked my my pants into my socks don't worry it's fine see your kid over there looks like he's got a tick on him oh boy so june of 2000 the payments end uh but she still should have some things she's got her saint thomas house she's got two uh killington vermont condominiums uh she also has retirement accounts worth more than 550 000 no kids to piss it away on. So she's got money. She's got, you know, a little nest egg here. Everybody said she seemed very frugal about everything, though, too. Yeah, she's very frugal. And now the payment schedule and insurance thing was supposed to end in June, but her

husband said that the payment schedule had been altered and she was still receiving alimony and is still covered by insurance in June of 2000, in july of 2000 still going on doing her a favor yeah doing her a favor stretching it out so it's so it's easier here um she talked to her first husband uh cook yeah around this time peter and uh she called him to discuss some possessions from their marriage 20 years ago 20 years ago i don't know everything's gone i don't know what to tell you um she said he said that uh uh she didn't sound bad to him but she did say he did say that she sounded stressed out and she said she had a lot going on parents are old and got houses and all that shit everything was not all right yeah he said it's not

all right he said quote she said she was going to have to start supporting her parents she made some allusions to her parents retirement money uh money about it being finite and then unless she sold the house she was going to be in trouble so yeah she's worried about her parents that's tough when you live to 92 and 86 yeah you're out living your money you don't expect for both of both people to live that long you know what i mean when they do you're draining that shit. And if you've wrapped your assets up in flower pots and coupons, you might be fucked over. You could be completely fucked.

So July of 2000, Kathleen moves back in with her parents. She moves in with her parents. Where'd she put all the flower pots? I think she left them behind. She's going to start a new collection. When Adele's 92nd birthday was there adela her mom she told kathy that if kathy made her a birthday cake she would quote throw it on the floor so don't make me a cake if you do i'll throw it on the floor and kathy told her friend that that

depressed her a lot uh she said to her friend quote no matter what she did, it was never enough. Her parents just hated her. That's all she knew of. So August of 2000. You make me a cake, I'll throw it on the floor. James, would you go out and get me one of those Carvels? Get me a Fudgy the Whale, please. Not you. Not you, Dickless. Jesus Christ.

Grow a dick. I've been telling you for 55 fucking years to grow a dick you're just useless i don't want your cake dickless good god um jesus uh her friend said that she had planned to build an apartment in the basement and just take care of her parents that way that's how she was going to do it she's going to make like a studio situation like we've done yeah uh here she's going to start a podcast very interesting it's a urology today podcast it's called dickless urology yeah dickless urologist is what it's called dickless the dick doc yeah dickless the dick doc dick doc dickless dick doc dickless i

think is what we're going with there yep jimmy took his headphones off That means that's a winner. That's a winner, folks. I want that podcast so bad. Dick Doc Dickless, how you doing, everybody? Don't worry. This is Welcome to the Podcast, where I don't have a dick, but I know more about it than you do. You got one, and I can tell you about it. Yeah.

Jesus Christ. A neighbor that knew her parents said, quote, I'm not sure they had much money. So the parents are running out of money. Yeah. And her friend or a neighbor of here said, quote, she was in between careers and was torn between staying with her parents and going back down to the Virgin Islands. We had no idea what she was going through. It must have been something

awful. Yeah, I would say so. She asked Cook, her old husband, if he could come up from florida i'm sorry to william tyrell she asked if he could come up from florida to help her pay bills and take care of the house you come up and just help me for a week and he said no we're divorced we're crazy i'm missing a leg and i'm in florida i'm doing great uh he said quote i thought she might be suicidal but i didn't i never thought she would hurt anyone else uh yeah so by this time by august of 2000 she had stopped bathing she stops bathing and she wouldn't eat or sleep okay um yeah

uh she just wouldn't take care of herself and was also kind of slacking and taking care of her parents as well as she's just falling apart mentally obviously uh she said quote it would take me four hours to get my shoes on it would take me four hours to go grocery shopping where i might have done it in 45 minutes depression can be immobilizing to the person who's experiencing it experiencing it when i say it took me four hours to get my shoes on i don't know what happened in those four hours that is oh that's too much terrifying yeah that's terrifyingly depressed man that is so horrible it's taken me four hours to put shoes on that's so bad yeah that's but i've just stared at my shoes and i know exactly where all those minutes went she's not to lose track of those

four hours is crazy she's so depressed she doesn't even have her thought process going she's just zoning so far gone That's so scary and sad. She needs a doctor a long time ago. And anybody can get to that. That's what's so scary about that. She thought, though, she thought she'd find a way out of the situation and everything else. A person who used to work with her, a doctor who used to work with her, said, quote, It's amazing what Kathy went through.

She was at the top of her field, and I'm sure it was very lonely, which is also true for her. She said that when Kathy was a doctor, she was always a little obsessive compulsive about details, and they always noticed that. They said, quote, details were sometimes her problem. I don't think for Kathy it was easy to get to the bottom of that list. So that makes sense. August 26, 2000. Remember, we talked from the top of the show 6 48 a.m uh yeah uh she calls 9-1-1 and uh they said she sounds completely disconnected she doesn't

sound there's no emotion in her voice she's just like like a robot person she says quote my parents have been dead in their beds for days i've gone out of my mind i did this really bad thing that's what they hear they're like well we'll send a cop over let's go talk about that um so when the cops get there they said what's going on all right and she said uh she said something is terribly wrong and they said is your parents dead and she said yes um so yeah they go upstairs uh they found police end up finding numerous prescription bottles scattered throughout the home uh there uh she would later tell police that she'd been writing out prescriptions for herself because she's still her medical license is still good for another year oh wow she still has a medical

license so so she can just write it she She's writing herself prescriptions. She wrote her prescriptions for herself for Remeron, which is an antidepressant, and Restoril, which is a sleeping medication. It's a very strong sleeping medication, if I'm not mistaken. So she's on hardcore antidepressants and a hardcore sleep medication that is just making her a zombie, basically. She had access to prescription pads, obviously. a zombie basically uh she had access to prescription pads obviously um the uh the wow the affidavit that the detective filed later said that quote she stated that she was with her parents when they died she indicated that it was quote all my fault and that she quote did these bad things so uh not good um not good for how did they die we'll find out in a second about three for three days before the discovery here, neighbors didn't see her at all.

She was just, the house was closed up. One of the neighbors said, quote, we'd usually see her. She'd always wave and smile. But then it seemed the door just stopped opening. Yeah, that's pretty much here. Now, people freak out when they hear about this whole thing. factory pretty much here uh now people freak out when they hear about this whole thing um her friend here uh you know the koresh lady she said a lot of things went through my mind that day was this a mercy killing did her and her father get into some sort of argument did somebody come into the

house was she being framed i just wanted to find out what the truth was and a lot of people are freaking out there's no crime in this town and this is a very prominent person that they're all proud of and this happens uh the chatham township police chief who's worked like 14 hours in the last 12 years he said quote whenever there's a serious crime there's a sense of disbelief that it could happen here i don't think anyone expected something this bizarre could happen wait till you hear what happened to it's fucking bizarre um people around the neighborhood here someone said, I didn't think anyone would murder them because they're nice people. Well, that's good. Yeah. I don't think anyone would murder elderly people in their home.

Yeah. So it usually is with elderly folks. Yeah. You know how that goes. It's very rare that they go, yeah, that 94-year-old fucking deserved it. I expected him to be murdered. Yeah. I really thought that night.

I've been looking for it. The guy was all right, but the old lady had it coming. I'm not going to lie here. She said, the guy said, I didn't think they're nice people he said i just talked to i just talked to him five days ago and he was really a nice guy because he has a dick this guy saying it this is a this is a quote from uh yeah neff is the last name it's a guy yeah so michael i think is his first name so uh yeah he said that uh you know this person said him and his wife were reclusive the old couple here they often took walks with a health care provider and talked about his days

as an optician and all that sort of thing quote the last conversation i had with him was for about a half hour because he loves to talk those fucking ticks are out there uh yeah the one person that just moved in a couple years ago said the wife i've never seen her uh he mentioned his daughter in speaking but only to say that she was okay there's no indication there was problems in the house she's just okay she's just okay yeah she's okay no dick or nothing but she's all right don't worry about six women on a board i don't know some bullshit another neighbor a guy yeah said quote he was a cheerful guy we really didn't know the woman that well she stayed mostly in the house but james would always be out taking walks around

the block so yeah there's a daughter say what what was that jesus christ i had no idea this is by the way the third murder in chatham township in the last 15 years third third third and fourth or second and third no no third the third murder situation got it at all here uh in uh was it here one guy here 19 march 1999 a guy was shot to death by police after stabbing his estranged wife and two boys and killing uh killing their oldest son and then another one was uh another person gail dreher was bludgeoned and strangled by her husband in 1986 sweet christ so yeah there was that um that's the last we've had murders so they don't happen very often and they're domestic usually husband and wife um so uh everybody that knew hagan during her career thought this was insane like this is fucking nuts

she was certainly out of the ordinary yeah one said quote i know she's had a long problem with depression i don't know whether she's been treated or diagnosed so the funeral comes around this is even weirder funeral comes around they're laid to rest um with a speech written by kathy kathy wrote the speech she planned the funeral yeah she she planned planned the funeral and wrote their memorial speech. She was there. No, she's in jail. Oh, my God. They held her on $250,000 bond.

Who delivered this shit? She just set it all up. She wrote a testimonial on their life and times, which was read by the Reverend Margaret Koniger of St. Paul's Episcopalian Church. She was not allowed to attend the service, but she stayed in county jail. Yeah, this is fucking crazy. Unbelievable. Yeah.

One of the people at the service said, if Dr. Hagan knew of the resources available to her and her parents with their problems, this might not have happened. Well, she didn't know, but she just wasn't in a state to access it because she was having problems, man. So it happens. So then there's the will of the Hagans. She is the, they have no other kids. She's the person. She's the executor, but she can't be because she's also the sole beneficiary. And she can't be the beneficiary because the charges negate her being the beneficiary.

Of course. So she can't do that. So they get alternate executors of the will. One of the people who is named alternate executor is William Tyrell, her second husband. Yeah, he can choose whether he wants to actually do it or not. He says, quote, we're still trying to clear up some details about that. I suppose as a charitable act, I would do it, seeing as how it appears there is no one else. But it's certainly not a contentious issue.

He doesn't really care either way. Um, yeah, nobody else to take it all. No, that's what I mean. And when she was first arrested, she reached,

she called William. That's who she called first was William Tyrell, her ex husband. Imagine that getting that from your call from your ex wife. Ha ha. Click. I don't think so. All right.

All right. All right. They don't even have kids. So it's like, it's not even like, Hey, I'm the mother of your children. This is, you're just some, I'm some lady you used to have sex with. Like this isn't, we used to be business partners. Yeah, that's it.

So, uh, apparently though, I guess they're still pretty close when it comes to shit like that. Uh, police did end up locating a niece in Vermont and a nephew in Quebec, Canada that might be able to, uh, be part of this as well executors of this whole thing now in court she has to make an appearance in court uh to plead and everything uh she is uh acute she's she appears sleep deprived distraught unable her attorney says that she is unable to fully communicate with her attorney. She's basically cops, the law, the attorney's like, there's nothing I can do.

She won't even talk to me. She's not bathing. She's grunting. She's just ignoring everything. She said nothing in court and only nodded when the attorney patted her on the back before she returned to jail. She just says no.

She's just done, man. She's cashed out. Her attorney met with her for about two hours and said she frequently lapsed into silence, was confused, and didn't make any remarks that showed that she was even aware her parents were dead at that moment. Just out of it. Bail set at $2.5 million. That's high.

Because she's got cash, so you have to set it high here. After the arraignment, they said that the lawyer was telling press and everybody that she'd suffered from bouts of depression for years and will likely plead insanity. He says that, quote, she's offered no explanation for what's happened. She's frail and worn out. I didn't see any emotion from her except confusion. He says that it was a culmination of things coming to a head, her divorce, her loss of business and other things. That all makes sense here. Yeah.

Wow. Her friend, Koresh, jumps in and tries to help her. She hires defense lawyers for her, mental health professionals, and gets that all lined up. She really did. She took a buyout from work. She took a buyout from her job to like retire early so she could help her friends defense which is a great friend koresh did that uh yeah the the koresh lady did that she said she lost friends who didn't understand why she was doing it she said she's

become kathy's guardian uh she cleared out the home of her parents and arranged she you know arranged a funeral on the ground this woman really came to her aid yeah she really did there's a great friend she cares and she's watched and witnessed this spiral for her entire life and she feels bad she has a heart she's known her for 40 years to stick with someone like that is really it's it's impressive good for her man i mean i hope everybody has a friend like that so um while in custody now they talk to her and psychologists talk to her and psychiatrists talk to her. Now we get what the fuck happened. She said that after she killed her parents, and we'll talk about how that happened, she spent some, quote, quality time with them while they were dead. She said she walked backwards because she thought this would return them to life if she walked backwards.

She said, so I walked backwards for like a day because I figured if I did that i could reverse everything and then that didn't work so i was like fuck now what do i do um yeah that's what i'm saying uh she said she would she uh at that point she heard a commanding voice uh when she killed them she said a commanding voice um wow the quote here is is crazy but i'll get to the full quote but she says that she thought she could transport herself and her parents to another sphere yeah you can't do that where they could live happily um yeah she said that she wanted to be with her parents her parents never loved her and she thought if she could get them all to a different sphere they would love her she said um yeah um by the way a couple years later she will say she

doesn't even remember any of this happening um they they asked her how how this started like what the fuck happened and she said that they started taking some pills i found and i could not take it anymore that's what she said um they said they found numerous prescription bottles scattered around the house uh they found they The parents were found in their individual twin beds. They're so old school. They slept in separate beds in their master bedroom. The mother was lying face up. She's clutching a small piece of cloth in her hand that was pressed close to the left side of her head.

And James was on the other bed. And they were all very dead and stiff and I mean it was super over they were there a while like at least eight days oh my god yeah she just hung out in her nightgown without bathing that all time backward walking backwards trying to fix it the psychiatrist said quote she stated that while her father was in his bed resting she placed a plastic bag and then a pillow over his face. Oh, my God. He struggled for a little while, then died. She then went over to her mother as her mother was lying in her bed.

Kathleen placed the same plastic bag or the same plastic bag and pillow over her mother's face and suffocated her. She said that her mother struggled for a short time before she stopped breathing. and suffocated her. She said that her mother struggled for a short time before she stopped breathing. Also, it said, quote, Kathleen stated she does not recall the day she killed them, but knows they were alive on Tuesday, August 12th, as that was her mother's birthday.

That's when she was told that she was going to have a cake on the floor. Kathleen knows that she remained in the house for a few days after they were dead. Yeah, this shit is... It said she was making all sorts of bizarre statements and and crazy shit she was saying that was just really fucking out there uh in court two psychiatrists and a psychologist who interviewed interviewed her said that she was in the grip of a major psychosis hearing voices and reading special signals into playing cards she would play

solitaire yeah and if she's treating those like fucking tarot cards combination of numbers came out she would take that as a message of a certain thing uh taking signals from television ads that she thought were subliminally telling her things that were like talking to her specifically and traffic lights get out of my life she said traffic lights were talking to her and communicating with her and telling her things uh in the days leading up to the parents death that's fucking she's in a pocket robin type of moment here this is like next level that's unbelievable she can't control it um she was just she said she was deteriorating mentally after she felt like a failure both professionally and personally and was concerned about her parents she called her parents mommy and daddy still still in her 50s

um she said to a psychiatrist quote i didn't just want i didn't want to kill them i just wanted to make them get to the sphere that was supposed to be better. They weren't dead to me. They had no pulse, but they were in some kind of suspended state like voodoo. And if I walked backwards, I could make them go to the sphere. This is what I mean. This is some serious logic here. Wow.

So the autopsies performed said these were injuries consistent with asphyxiation. That she got right. trial comes up she decides for a bench trial no jury yeah let's let the judge take care of this one here because the jury this can get oh this stuff gets so ugly yeah um it comes out in court uh here during the trial she's pleading not uh insanity on this whole thing and they're trying to you know push her for murder sure um she said uh she told the the psychiatrist shortly before the killings her father called her a harlot okay okay which makes no sense it's uh 1908 yeah you harlot yeah you want to strump it right so he calls her a harlot and she again no penis right how dare you yeah uh she pushed him and then he hit her with his cane that's what happened in the days leading up hell

of a fight yeah uh she said the psychiatrist said she always felt nothing she did was good enough for her father well if you become one of the only six female urologists in the country and he goes yeah you really can't please the man at that point yeah um so a state hired psychiatrist by the you know the prosecutor uh said quote her feelings of inadequacy were either a cause or a symptom of her depression fair yeah um she uh gets on and and she does an interview on the news here from jail. And she said, quote, I love my parents. I just can't believe how a mind can be so messed up that it could happen. It wasn't rage.

It wasn't anger. It wasn't anything like that. It's unbelievable. And then she recalls how she was taking messages from traffic signals and playing cards and TV commercials. She also took orders from commanding male voices that just happened in her head um and uh which told her then that smothering her parents would lead them to a better sphere where they could all be happy again and nobody would yell at her lack of penis or call her a harlot anymore um and they all eat birthday cake. Everybody likes their cake. Everybody wants frosting extra. So apparently all three psychiatrists were adamant that the suffocations were not vindictive or they weren't mercy killings, but they were an act of a woman who believed in a childlike way that she could send her parents to a happier dimension.

She really thought that. So, yeah, it's all this is all going on. She's being held, you know, and everything. Yeah, she said it's just, she can't believe how it even happened. So after one day of testimony, all the psychiatrists testify, basically the exact same thing,

defense and prosecution. So when you have that, you got to kind of take what they say. It's like, why'd you go up there if everybody agrees that's clearly what it is so the judge here's uh it's his judge judge b theodore bozanelli's it's like quite the fucking candle on that cat there he only hears one day of testimony and decides that uh um decides to make a verdict here and he decides not guilty by reason of insanity he does decide insanity um the judge said that quote she did not ask for help because she was incapable of asking for help that's that's a that's true um i would say that and uh by the way there's a certain opinion on she kind of got an easy an easy path here of course because she's a doctor that's the thing because i we have a lot

of cases where we'll talk about in a second just at the end of this so we'll get to that um so she is uh you ma'am may fuck off uh she's committed to a uh maximum security psychiatric hospital until she's evaluated and considered fit to move into less restrictive facilities until she's she can leave when she's healthy. There's no they'll figure they'll figure out when she's healthy or show or show. They'll figure out. Yeah. So, I mean, when she's judged deemed by the staff to be not a danger, she's released. She can.

So it could be two years. You could do two years for two murders. You could do 18 months. Who knows?'s committed to trenton psychiatric hospital um she uh uh she calls her hagan calls her friend karash quote she's my worldly savior my right hand nice i would say so she says she wants to be freed to live a normal life and try again to, you know, I mean, this life another go. Yeah. Karash said, quote, more than anything, she gives me hope, hope and love. She's given me will go on and hoping will give me the courage to go on and gain courage.

She says March 2008 comes around. This was in February 2002. She sent away March 2008 comes around and a superior court judge in march 2008 releases hagan from the institution so six years she did for that with oversight from social workers and psychiatrists she purchased an 850 000 home what before leaving uh yeah an eight hundred fifty thousand dollar home before leaving um she will receive transportation and social services needed from an agency in monmouth county and would attend half day sessions three times a week at park place which is some place

like that for the first month of her release the amount of time she has to spend there would be gradually reduced and she would continue to be periodically reviewed by a supreme court judge over her lifetime um yeah five years ago she smothered two grown adults wow uh the judge said that she's highly educated and she wanted trenton psychiatric staff members to work with park place to develop an individualized plan for her that would recognize her intellect and skills. Really? Wow. Yeah. I don't even know what to say about that.

She has been allowed by the judges, once she's released, to visit her home on day passes and occasionally spend the night there. Not all the neighbors are thrilled about this, of her new neighborhood. Specifically, Joseph and Kathleen Gaddy, who are a couple who owns the home next door, and they were at the hearing when this was all going on. They had written to the judge that they believe an independent guardian should be appointed for her,

and they don't want this fucking lady next door who did this. We have children. They were critical of the hospital and how hagan in their view showed poor judgment by buying a home in a depressed real estate market ah they that's a poor judgment they went and said she shouldn't she's not sane because she showed poor judgment by buying a house in a down real estate market her financial decision was so poor, she must be crazy. Put her back in the hospital. That's literally, they fucking petitioned a court with that as their argument.

That is idiotic because that's goddamn genius. That's when you buy. That's what I mean. Quote, she has been allowed to purchase a home in a declining real estate market, squandering the assets she should have been using for her treatment and supervision is what they wrote the court. Like, you give a shit shit you just don't want her next door to you what are you fucking talking about good lord this is clearly a lunatic we're just worried about her money situation we want it to last fucking crazy i don't want her to go broke um

she'll be on a cocktail of drugs which she must comply with as part of her release, including lithium to treat her bipolar, Effexor for depression, and Inderol for hypertension and tremors, and other drugs to manage osteoporosis, chronic back pain, and anxiety. That'll help with the dating life. She's got a lot going on. Yeah, and they said that she hadn't had any recent behavioral problems in the institution and uh hagan said she is aware that the surrounding neighbors uh around her house she called the house her perfect home uh she said that uh you know that she uh she does she is monitored and that her

you know her she's on medication and she's fine and everything like that you You know, it's all good. July of 2010, she is, this is, you know, she's free, I guess, at that point. She's taking her prescribed medicines and based on favorable reports

by her psychiatrist and a mental health clinician who sees her on a weekly basis, a judge here said that reduces the clinician visits from once a week to twice a month okay she needs let's i say let's keep a close eye on her yeah i get it yeah i don't i don't she shouldn't be in jail i guess i don't know whatever but she you're gonna reduce let's take a week off not not goddamn cut it in half let's not go halfsies on the fucking psycho medication let's not do that here

uh yeah she'll have it reduced the judge also told uh the prosecutor and defense lawyer that he would next review the status in july 2011 six months from then uh he conducted periodic reviews before that the judge said quote there's nothing that would be of concern to me with her. She said, quote, how do you feel this morning? To the judge asked her and she said, quote, psychologically fine. Okay. Psychologically, I'm good. Yeah.

I'm losing money. I bought a house in a downer. Hey, I got to get in there. So I got to flip this bitch. Penis or not, I got to get in there. The judge noted that her psychiatrist, who's been seeing her every six weeks at this point believes she is quote in very good remission of her mental illness everything is fine uh he cited a report that found no evidence of thought disorder or psychotic thinking in her at all at this point uh very good remission a social worker who visits her weekly says that she, quote, seems very stable and wanted to have the visits reduced.

Now, in the neighborhood, obviously, people aren't thrilled about it. Neighbors will not talk to her, basically. She is shunned from everybody. One neighbor here, she's 62 years old, by the way, Hagen. She's not like she's like tearing things up. 62-year-old woman with osteoporosis, so she's not a threat. But one neighbor was heard by a reporter saying to his wife when she came outside, because the reporter was like watching her at home or whatever.

She said, the guy said to his wife quote the murderess is outside tell the children to come in that's what it is that's that's what everyone does the murderess is out yeah if she comes inside everybody scatters and goes inside they like yeah the murderess is outside tell the children to come in like let's make sure they don't tell them they're not safe wow um so there's a there's a a bill put forth at this point i don't know if it passes that says that neighbors must be notified when a murderer walked like a sex registration but for murderers basically why the murder i don't know why does that if that doesn't exist funny that why that i get that sexual uh assault

in any way is horrible but murder is really bad yeah so i think anyone that kills people is just as bad as a rapist probably so you should probably let us know that they're coming as well you know the thing about being murdered is there's no fixing it there's no fixing it yeah i mean there's not there's no amount of uh head doctoring that can jesus christ cope with it yeah uh so one of the lawmakers said he had the proposal he said it wasn't meant to create a scare but that the public has a right to know when a formerly violent patient because it's for mental patients specifically moves into the neighborhood he said quote a number of families

who live around the hagen residence contacted me that was the catalyst people got nervous and upset because they found out through the grapevine that there was a furloughed murderer living on the block the police chief didn't even know and that led to a little bit of hysteria oh i'm sure he was mad oh yeah he was well he guys was like oh fucking one call in three weeks he's like jesus christ a kid stole a twix bar three weeks ago and now this jesus balls got a murderer living here well the people you know what they they could have uh they didn't they couldn't didn't have to deal with it for too long because april 18th 2015 uh kathleen dies in her home and uh yeah dies at age 69 in her 64 said 69 in the thing but it's 60 she was born in 55 oh yeah sorry

16 69 is right my bad 69 uh she died in her home uh that that day uh no telling what nobody knows no information on what it was shouldn't smother or something nope she was cremated though that we do know uh cremated did not wrap a plastic bag around her head or anything like that nothing but uh yeah and that that is her story and the story of Chatham Township. And that is a fucking wild story. Is it not? I hope I hope that whatever she's dead. I hope that it was natural causes. I don't want that to be something where she took her own life.

No, God, no. That's just terrible for if there's the worst or if it came back on her like that. And OK, here's the here's where I went through the whole thing with this. I went through this whole thing. I'm feeling bad, obviously, because I don't like anybody who's mentally ill and things like that. Then at the same time... You don't like that anybody is mentally ill.

I don't like people who are mentally ill. I don't like it that people have to suffer mental illness. Is that better? He's not like me. Yeah, fuck that all up. So, I don't like that shit. But then I look at it this way. Like, I look, I that all up. So I don't like that shit. But then I look at it this way. I don't know.

For every case we do, for 162 cases, I look over 20 cases for every one we do. It takes 20 to find one. So you can look over 20 times 162. That's how many cases I've looked at and probably more. So I see a lot of shit. i've looked at and probably more so i see a lot of shit and i noticed something and i noticed that someone who is affluent and a doctor and uh might i say very white as well yeah um took a one-day trial with three psychiatrists and she's putting a judge and a judge and she's released in six years but i've seen a ton of these where it is poor people or something

happened like this a lot of times people of color and poor people it really seems to be money it's not even a this particular thing that i've seen anyway isn't really a racial thing in the north anyway in the south it is in the north it's not really it's not a racial thing as much as it's a class thing right um and the class just happens to be separated racially but they do shit like this and there's women who kill their kids kill their parents and have had and you look at their and i've read the stories and i look at their mental histories and they're way more detailed than this of being hospitalized for months at a time and you know having documentation trail of them being treated for this shit them being

treated and women and men and whether it's a you know we've we've had a bunch of that shit and they don't give a fuck they're like yeah you're crazy you can keep take your crazy ass to the state prison and fucking sit there and that's what they do whereas this they treated this way differently and i think obviously that does have to do with the area they're in and you know whatever but it just it gave me a lot of mixed emotions because I'm like I feel so bad and I still feel so bad whatever regardless of anything I feel bad someone's suffering like this victims and still two victims and still the whole deal but then I also feel bad that there's a lot of other people that probably had the same fucking situation that just weren't, you know, which is justice treated with such kid.

That's what I mean. Who knows? We have no fucking idea. We haven't figured out with mental illness. As a society, we haven't figured out how responsible people are for their actions. If they're ill. Yeah, we really haven't. I know that's not funny or anything, but it's fucking true.

It's true. We haven't. It's a real murky. Yeah. You know, back in the day before the 70s when they switched it it used to be like if you were a little out there they'd put you in a hospital for a while that's the way it worked and then in the 70s they made it so basically unless you were thinking that angels were carrying you to commit a murder and like hearing crazy voices that's the only way you could be considered

mentally and you don't even know what today is and you don't even know what today is you don't know who you are or where you are. What year it is. She fell under that category, you know, but most people don't. Right. Even if they are legitimately mentally ill. So it's difficult. It is difficult.

And I don't know if that's also maybe to maybe expand the scope of that as far as mental illness goes, because then what you do is you put mentally mental ill people in prison which causes even more fucking problems right and so it's a it's a i don't know it's a snowball but this case was really just one of those cases where i'm like jesus christ i had a lot of conflicting emotions god damn it but also uh mental illness they did they historically and and today too people are just so dismissed by it. Oh, yeah. Still. Just worthless people. No, it is. It's still.

They can't do anything for us because they have mental illness. People are still dismissed. Fucking Einstein was a lunatic. Yeah, people are still dismissed all the time. Some of the most amazing people on earth had horrible mental illnesses. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, she's like some kind of cross between a beautiful mind and sling blade it's like a weird genius yeah i mean she's obviously a brilliant woman brilliant and driven

and everything else and that also but that's a fine line to walk for a lot of people yeah between that and falling off of it and going fucking crazy it happens the pressure to be something that that everybody else expects of her based on the beauty and everything, the words that were said about her in high school and through college, of being this hot piece of ass. But she's brilliant. That's what I mean. And her dad still doesn't even approve. No penis.

No cock. And just, if you're obsessive compulsive about shit and things like that, in addition to being kind of bipolar and depressed and everything else, dude, you could go that way real fucking easily. If I don't get a couple weeks off one of these days i'm gonna start doing crazy shit you're gonna come over i'm gonna flower pots in my backyard fill in the whole fucking yard abandonment issues will change you uh yeah it's it's just it's just a thing as a child you have to have got a bit of that yeah as a child you're supposed to be nurtured and then when you're not and when you're shunned and when

your parents are disappointed from day one things are gonna go wrong you put on the fridge and the bad bin the fridge magnets the fridge magnets that are letters yeah it just says dickless failure she's like wow okay i'm two that's what's always written up there no matter what it'll be rearranged but uh yeah so i don't know that's what that is it is what it is i don't know you guys have your own opinions think about it bat it around and i don't know change your policies or whatever accordingly i don't fucking know but if you like that show one thing i do know is you can tell us about it you can get on apple podcast that purple icon give us five stars tell us your following instructions or directions or whatever the

shit just write something in there. I don't know why you have to do that, but it counts more if you write something and all that shit. Write the tips throughout. Yeah, that's it. And also, to us. It's not time of year. Yeah, you know how it is. Do us a favor, too.

Make a concerted effort this week to tell a friend about small town murder. Do this. All six of them that you have there, because I don't have any more than that. But, I mean, advertising for podcasts is prohibitively expensive. It is. It really is. The rates they want for us to cross-promo with other... It's insanity.

We can't... It's just we can't afford it. So, yeah, if you want to help the show, help promote the show, advertise the show, get some new listeners in here, obviously, which is always good for us on the business end, Get some new listeners in here, obviously, which is always good for us on the business end. Please, tell a friend. Make an effort to the crime and sports movement and the small town murder something. Thank you for doing it, though.

We really appreciate it. Get on that. Also, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Everything. Crime and sports. That's where the tickets are. Small town murder. Merchandise.

All sorts of new stuff. And especially your tickets. As of right now, San Francisco's show is tickets are. Small Town Murder, merchandise, all sorts of new stuff, and especially your tickets. As of right now, San Francisco's show is still on. Follow us on social media for updates on that if you are going to those shows. It's at Murdersmall on Twitter, at SmallTownPod on Facebook, at SmallTownMurder on Instagram. Follow us and find that out, please. And follow us anyway on that for any new information. But San Francisco this weekend, Friday night sold out,

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rest of the dates at another time. But thank you guys for everything you do for us there. Right. Yeah, we really do appreciate it. And if you want to be a hero of ours, and we're going to tell you how heroic they are because they're our producers, and they really are hero stars to us because they keep the show going, and that helps a lot. Also, you can become a Patreon member.

If you're over $5 on the pledge there, you can have access to all of our bonus materials as well. We have bonus episodes. Every other week we put one out. And it's usually a case. This week it's just a wacky personal ad laden. It's like prisoner dating game but crazier. So check that out.

Come check it out if you listen to crime and sports this week you'll really get what it is and know the drift and have a lot of fun with it and do that but if you want to be one of these people and join the awesome group of producers that we have you can do that very easily by going to patreon.com slash crime

and sports or heading over to paypal and using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com. If you want to just make a one-time donation just to be nice people, you can do that as well. And I don't know, man. I need to hear something good. There's a lot of depression stuff this week.

I need to hear good things. Tell me about the people who are the best people that don't make me depressed at all. Hit me with them, Jimmy. This week's executive producers are Tanya Volanek, Amy Spicer, Jordan Bennett, Maria Montague, Amanda Dixon, Ari Karasun, Brooke and Paige Carter, Ann in Sacramento, Nicola Mastrantonio, and Carrie Montazanaries. Manzanaries. That's what it is. Thank you guys so much for everything you do. We can't do it without you.

Other producers this week are Pam Adams, Wayne Peterson, Jessica Ivey, Eve Welling, or Ive? It's probably Eve. Heather Norton, Stephen Russell, Thomas Smith, Jude Kendall, Abby with no last name, Gary Howard, Lanny Blunk, Ariel Thomas, Liz Vasquez, Chris Davis, Alfred with no last name, Christopher Longhurst, Ryan Benner, Megan Conkra, Bailey Payton, Bobby Stride, James Marder, Michelle Martin, Jenny Scheib. Oh, that's Earl's daughter. Earl's little girl. Of course. Yeah, obviously. From the painting empire. Lauren Boyette, Peyton Meadows, Ashley Veo, Will with no last name, Jorge Lopez.

Probably not George Lopez, right? Maybe not. He should have given a bigger donation. It's a TV show for 30 fucking years. Pony up, George. Melissa Turner, Tony Keywell, Dove Harper. given a bigger donation probably a tv show for 30 fucking years pony up george melissa turner tony keywell uh dove harper oh he said yes so congratulations congrats guys uh in case you cared to follow up on that brenda patrick kathy louise zeller uh amanda knight logan cranty crane crane like bob's son yeah uh carrie carrie street tyler williford yes laura with no last name elise

elissa elissa keen uh rachel stora carolyn abby aunt addie that's what that is andrew peter patterson damn it i was doing so well austin okay uh ostasia on you india diet no matt kerr tara dawes uh tk laurie i think people are now we're doing uh yeah j.e wisman and yeah yeah what's your middle name is it alan what is it philip philip yeah jv yeah that was funny so people are donating his t tk la Laurie, the very, very rich man or woman. Danielle Anistine, Brett Killian, Janice Hill, Heather fucking Jones. That's what that is. Aaron Lawton. I think that's, yeah.

Rachel Bruce, Michael Critch. Probably got made fun of for being too close to crotch. Demarcus Carter, Dylan Kaiser, Stephanie Beard. Yeah. yeah kisha kisha kisha stevens alexis rotis uh rotis that's tough that's no fun i'd like to give a shout out quick to uh from the the lady named sarah from season seven of 90 day fiance she's one of the the people who is importing a woman yeah it's his ex-wife yeah and they're the in the history of the show the least trashiest people and she listens to the show great and like tweets at us she's really nice thank you thank you for being finally people where we go oh fucking normal people okay good they're not trashy they're not like she need to do this with my kids and how dare she. None of that shit.

She's a nice lady, nice people. Good job. Robin Anderson, Jen Pratt, Jesse Trotter, Heidi Broughton. Like, yeah,

Broughton, nah, that's tough. I'll tell you, when people misspeak and say, it's been Broughton, you know, that's what her last name

is spelled like, too. Luis Moreno, Andrea Roberts, Laura Culpepper, Cassandra Clark, Jesse Sukup, Kirtland Cunningham, I think that's what I wrote. What is that? Dreddy? Oh, Dreddy Kruger. See the pun there? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jill Butler, Maren Aheron. Maren Aheron? Jennifer Baird, Sarah Surridge, Kyle Hughes, Cherie Lynn, Katie Hill, Hayden Sweet, Avalon Haley, Dylan Leahy, Kathleen Jones, Mindy Shempert, and Homestretch. Here we go. Ready? And I've got these in the bag, because I know these all. Amber Scar.

Amanda. Fuck. Backert Wilk. Jamie Keck. It's a Keck. Katie Stokes. Sleeper Sharks. Leah Russell.

Rudy Flores. Matt Fost. Chris Grebel. Yeah. Augustus Lerman. Lerma. Erica Little. Christy Kreider. Rachel Hyinga. Damnus Lerman. Yeah. Lerma. Erica Little. Christy Kreider.

Rachel Hyinga. Damn it. Right. Ryan. Ryan. Yeah. Like, right. Freddy Krueger, by the way, is a rapper who was one of the, like, in the Wu-Tang orbit.

Really? Yeah. It's not really a person. Gravedigger. No, it's not that guy, but that's the name of an actual rapper. Got it. He just took that guy's name. How come I don't know that?

I don't know. I've heard of it. That's one of the Killer Bees. Yeah. I think he was. Was he in Gravedigger's, gravediggers maybe possibly it's got to be one of the killer bees it's actually in killer bees gotcha okay yeah yeah alexis stephan stephanakis stephanak jonathan hewling uh jenny blacker yes oh boy that hurts uh cheddareddar Cat. Gavin Johnson. I almost called him Gowan.

Jennifer Britsman. Mill Dog 311. Laurel Peace. Brooke Kale. Matthew Moon. Andrew Pell. Sally Martin. Luke Torpey.

Elliot Gibbons. Alexandria Brackenovich. Yep. Dolores would know the last name, Emma Mitchell, Matthew Clark, Aaron would know last name, Jack, Jack Kautz-Dicker, Sally Martin, Candice would know last name, Oldest Charm, Christina Davis, Rhonda Sheridan, Gott D. Lajuna, Luvia, no. Yeah, sure. Luvia?

No. Yeah, sure. Danielle Dole. Reba Warburg. Laura Kramer. Stephen Clark. Brian Cox. Rachel Strauss.

Ed Whitmarsh. Donnie Yarborough. Yeah. Mike McCombs Jr. Yeah, that's who that is. Kathy Williams. Alex Capel. Nicholas Welch.

Zach Anderson. Michelle Pollard. Renee Dillard. Noard, Renee Dillard. No, it's Dillard. Any other 90s rappers in there? Antonio Ortiz. Was he one? No.

I don't think so. Mad Lion, give us money, too. I don't see him. Not in here. Andrew Pell, Justin Kropf, Megan Good, Christine Chrome. What did I write? Brome. That's a B.

Jeremy Brown, Lisa Reuter, J.M. Jen jennings there you go there's another one of those uh fuck face macy sykes did i call someone that i think one time derrick kish john uh cranowetter cranowetter uh amanda park sarah dusick uh casey barton Park, Sarah Dusick, Casey Barton, Casey Tinsley, Mandy Ronig, Jeff, no, Frank. What? Frank Schmitz, Joshua, Siegel, Kathleen Wacker, and Thomas Gallagher. God damn it, you guys. Thank you. Thank you, everybody, so much, so much, so much. We really appreciate everything you do for us and uh that you've just

done made this a thing for us thank you can't do it without you guys and uh we do appreciate it every day when we wake up in the mornings we know who to thank so uh jimmy what if they wanted to say something to you thank you insult you how could they do it you can thank me at wisdom sucks whisman sucks on twitter instagram and uh facebook You can message me, I suppose, but there's no Snapchat. And Ray Brougham and all of our Patreon supporters. Thank you guys so, so much. Those two were on the other page. Where can they find you?

You can find me at JimmyPIsFunny, or just copy and paste my name from the show description there. And by the way, I need to update on these shout-outs. I gave a shout-out to the Sarah woman from 90 Day Fiance. And I said, they're the most mature people ever on that show. And the only non-trash people that have ever been on that show. It got even better. She officiated her ex-husband's wedding with his Brazilian 22-year-old model bride. I want nothing to do with that fucking incredible

the kids were there that was it was beautiful and she was mature and i'm like who are these people who are these super mature wonderful people where did they find all this class that i don't know shit about so yeah do that if you want to follow me or whatever at jimmy p is funny just copy and paste my last name do all that shit. But yeah, that was hilarious. I had to give her credit for that because I've never seen anybody with more class than that before. That said, keep coming back every week

because God damn it, we will be. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1

and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.