Small Town Murder - #165 - Sex Tape Bait in Port Penn, Delaware

Episode Date: April 2, 2020

This week, in Port Penn, Delaware, a woman's Sunday night out to pick up a sex tape from an ex-boyfriend, and skating at the local roller skating rink turns into a case of a missing person, then quickly becomes a murder investigation. What follows is a mess of lies, excuses, alliances, and court battles. And that's only the beginning, as yet another murder plot unfolds. This one has more layers than an onion!! Along the way, we find out that William Penn was overrated, that holding a sex tape hostage is an awful thing to do, and that more murder isn't the answer to your murder conviction!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Port Penn, Delaware, a woman's night out at the local roller rink turns into a 20-year ordeal that unfolds with plots,

plans, and unexpected alliances. back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. We're excited. We are excited.

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That's right. So thank you guys for joining us. We're trying to pick some crazy, fun, wild episodes for you during all this nuttiness. Before we have to Joe Buck murders. Yeah, absolutely. The next two weeks are this week and next week. The stories are bonkers. They're absolutely crazy.

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we've both watched it and we love it and it's it's crazier than the tiger king we'll tell you that much right it really is it is so if you want to be one of those people you can do that very easily go over to patreon.com slash crime in sports or you can head over to paypal and make a donation using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com and for a one-time donation and we thank everybody for that as much as we can get out of ourselves thank you it's been a godsend and seriously life changer and life life fucking saver yeah thank you everybody there and uh disclaimer time uh this is a comedy show yeah we're having fun here it's a comedy show murders happen yeah they happen all over the place including on this show and we're going to talk about them uh the thing is we there's

a lot of stuff to talk about around a murder that's pretty funny that's not the actual murder that's the thing lots of stuff a bumbling around a murder that's pretty funny that's not the actual murder. That's the thing. Lots of stuff. A bumbling police force that lets a murderer go free or something. We'll make fun of a murderer if that comes up. Either way, though, what we go out of our way to do, we try not to do, is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family. But why?

Because we're assholes. What? But we're not scumbags. There you go. That's how it works. So we're going to have a good time. And if you want to have a good time and enjoy just a crazy ass story,

welcome and welcome aboard. If not, if you think true crime and comedy should never go together, these things are bad, then you shouldn't listen to the show probably. And we thank you for trying us. Move along. Date line's good.

Things like that. There's all sorts of stuff like that. It's very serious and you'll love it. So enjoy that stuff. But for the rest of you who want to have a good time, I think it's time to shout. And you know what? You can shout it.

You're not in your offices, probably. Normally, I say, you know, if you're in a conservative office, go in the bathroom. No, scare the shit out of your dogs and children in the middle of your house and yell, shut up and give me murder! And watch your cat run under the bed. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy.

What do you say? Bye, Tabby. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. What do you say? Bye, Tabby. Let's do this. Yeah. I'm losing my mind. I can't wait. And I took edible. I don't even care.

I took some edibles before the show. Oh, yeah. We're going to have a ball. I can't even go. I'm losing it. So forget it. It's edible time. Let's have a ball, Jimmy.

Let's do this. You got the corona kicking. I got the edibles. Let's have fun. Right. So let's go on a trip. What do you say? All right. We're going to have to walk because we can't we can't fly anywhere we'll drive and keep real real tight in but uh yeah we've been in texas we've been in florida we're

going up to delaware this week okay it's kind of a forgotten about little place delaware uh we're going to port penn delaware which is a very little place. Oh, yeah. It's not New England. This is a mid-Atlantic region. Oh, you're right. Yeah, I'm from the Northeast. It's not part of New England. It's a little south.

It's very south. New England is like Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire. Vermont. Maybe Vermont. Vermont's kind of a no-man's land. You're not in the tri-state people with the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut. You're not in New England, per se. You sort of are. That's land. You're not in the tri-state people with the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut. You're not in New England per se. You sort of are.

That's where you're thrown in. There's only seven of them, right? There's like seven people. We've gone through this before. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So this is in northern Delaware, which is panhandle, panhandle, panhandle. I got family from there.

They are hillbillies. It thins out to a nice handle where you could really fry something up on Delaware. It's 35 minutes to Dover, Delaware, which is the capital of Delaware. An hour to Philly, if you want to go somewhere better, go to Philadelphia. And about an hour 25 over to Baltimore. Everything's so close. It's all in there. Yeah, the East Coast is nice like that.

So, you got that. It's in Newcastle County, Delaware here. Zip code 1973131 area code 302 it doesn't have a motto and i didn't even bother making one up because there's just not enough people no although that's the thing there's so few people they could probably get together and agree on a motto just in one room not now but eventually they could do that so uh talk about them a little bit of history of this joint here uh the first europeans that were here were were uh were at fort christina they were from peter minuit's in 1638 expedition

on the swedish swedish vessels fogel grip and kalmar nickel oh boy it rolls off the tongue yeah there's those famous boats the nina the pinta, the Santa Maria, the Fogelgrip, and the Kalmar Nickel. You know them all. Right? The Mayflower. All the famous ones. Right.

The Kalmar Nickel, though. That's obviously- That one sounds gross. I had a poster on my wall as a kid. The Kalmar Nickel poster. Just a bunch of Swedes hanging off it. How you doing, guys? They laid out the town, the Swedish people, where the modern day Wilmington is.

They laid all that out. Okay. Which is kind of the modern day Wilmington is. They laid all that out. Okay. Which is kind of the big. Wilmington, Delaware. Yeah, it's the big town of that area here. But apparently a dispute ensued between the Swedes and the Dutch, which is a funny dispute. That's a slap fight. It's just briggen, borgen, borgen.

And they're like, I don't know. It's very polite. Very few balled up. Very white. Yeah. In that argument. They start it like, they're like, we'll start know. It's very polite. Very few balled up. Very white. Yeah. In that argument. They start it like they're like, we'll start at dusk because otherwise we're all going to burn.

Somebody got slapped with a handkerchief. Absolutely. No one comes out in the sunlight here. I feel like a fucking white glove smacked in the face. Yeah. They let like Bugs Bunny, like Sven from the one side and whoever the Dutch guy is. The two biggest guys got together like in the postman and they fought at the end. That's how it works.

Oh, boy. Jesus Christ. So, yeah, apparently they both wanted this land. So they were fighting about it here. In 1640, New Sweden was founded a few miles south of Christina. Really? We're just calling it New Sweden. Is that still there that way?

No. No. Think about this, though. At one point, the Swedes were trying to take hold. They were. Imagine a huge Swedish influence on the East Coast. They're throwing their tiny dicks around. This is New Sweden.

Yeah. Instead of pizza places on every block, it would be whatever the fuck the Swedes eat. I don't know. Pickled herring joints. Or something with cream stuffed in it. You've got gonna stop and get a cream pickled herring slice let's fold it up and eat it gross it's gross but i'm sure it happened here so uh very disgusting and uh 1654, things started to get even. They kept going back and forth, basically. The Swedes had complete possession of the west side of the Delaware River,

and then they ended up meeting with the local Native Americans to reaffirm their purchase of this, and then the Dutch ended up saying, Fine, if you're going to do that, we'll give our shit to England. So they gave their land to England. And England was like, yeah, you Swedish, you're not doing this shit. Take a hike. This is ours and you're not coming in.

So that's kind of how that worked. In 1673, the Dutch attacked the territory, though, and claimed it as their own again. So, yeah, this is just a lot of white people fighting each other for very stuff that's brown people already out yeah it's it's all for harbors there's a lot of harbors around here that's it so uh in six 1763 uh port penn developed as a harbor town sort of and by the early 1800s it was a lot they would all the grain and agriculture would go in and out of there became kind of an important, important part of this. And then finally, they built the the Chesapeake and the Delaware Canal and the shipping declined from there.

And it kind of just didn't turn away. It wasn't a port really anymore. Right. And turned into by the 1800s. It was like a summer. 1880s. It was like a summer destination for people from the city. Brutal.

So you'd come from dc right to like you know go to the sprawling metropolis of the beach commerce now it's just vacation it turned into like the jersey shore you're only making money for three months three months yeah exactly and people are going to leave their shit behind uh it offered quote fine fishing and good bathing okay so that's nice You can clean yourself up a little bit, you filthy bastard. You filthy Swede. You filthy Swede. Clean yourself. Let's pick on the Swedes for the whole episode.

Go take a bath, you pasty fucks. They never take any abuse to Swedes, right? We ignore them. Everybody ignores them. You never hear, these Swedish cocksuckers. If only the Swedes didn't move into the neighborhood. So, you know what? Well, people confuse

them a lot like i do with switzerland which is like neutral so we're like we can't pick on the swedes they just don't do anything are they neutral also who knows they don't even make a statement out of it they just hang out on the side it's really weird here so the they had camp meeting grounds and summer colonies there until 1933 when they had a huge hurricane and this was also during the depression so things were barely holding on to begin with hurricane comes through fucks everything up so what now you're not gonna have the money to rebuild everything so you know that's how it works here uh by like the 50s and 60s 1950s and 60s overfishing and really overwhelm the area erosion and industrialization and everything like that.

So, you know, fishing around there kind of became less desirable in filthy water. Unbelievable. So, yeah, that's when in the 70s and 60s and that's when, you know, people would just dump shit in the water. Right. And it was disgusting. It was horrible. And as a kid, I I remember in the 80s, if you went fishing on the Hudson River,

you couldn't keep the fish because it was like, oh God, these things are toxic. You wouldn't even touch them. I'm not even kidding. You wouldn't touch them. Cut the line and re-hook it? My dad had a glove, like a Hudson River glove

that he used because you wouldn't... He would burn every fishing trip? Yeah, you wouldn't. Yeah, you'd have to. You'd have to treat them like it was toxic. He had two trips out of this pair of gloves that's what it was literally yeah he had a he had river gloves for you don't touch anything that was in with the fish god forbid swimming no forget that the only thing you could eat was striped bass because they'd come through and they wouldn't hang out so they weren't toxic for some reason once a year

everybody go get them either way uh penn port port Penn's population has dwindled, and there's a lot of historic buildings there, but there's really not a lot of people there to enjoy them at this moment in time. Named after William, obviously, right? It's William Penn. Son of a bitch. William Penn was here for like three days, and they named it Port Penn. He's got everything named after him. He's got a fucking state.

He's got a whole state, colleges, all this shit. He stopped he stopped by here looked around and they were like we're gonna call this place port pen okay he's been that get you some that got you some clout back then unbelievable like he might be involved in this joint uh port pen itself was named to the national register of historic places in 1978 here uh there's it's a it's a kind of a marshy shitty area to to kind of be honest with you here it's it's uh it's it's not it doesn't have like they have all these historic buildings but doesn't really hold on to the history of everything because of how it kind of devised it just kind of fell apart yeah it would be like it would be like keeping up the history of atlantic city like well it's a dump. Who cares, you know? It's kind of there.

William Penn didn't do anything, did he? I mean, he wasn't a president. No, no, no. He was rich. Yeah, but why do you get every... He has so much shit. I think he had a lot of sway in the Quaker community, I believe, as well. Even if he had a part in the fucking Declaration, because it seems like everybody that was on... pre that like really 1600 so he wasn't even alive no no he's 1600s we're talking

about explorer no he's a he came over and we'll do a william penn bonus i can't wait right now because i don't know the fuck that guy it's a long story i'm trying it's not fair i'm like how do i quickly explain will you i don't know so i found some reviews of this place, one of them by William Penn himself. He's very disappointed, and he left quickly. Now, the only review I could find is a great review, but we'll get into it here. It's a five-star review, and the title is Live in a Small Town Surrounded by Wetlands, which sounds like an ad for some housing development. For Florida.

Yeah. He said uh this one says quote i have lived in this small town for eight years and i love it everyone is friendly and we are surrounded by miles of wetlands for the dog and for us to walk in it's an original it is an original colony of delaware and there are many historic buildings in our small town if you are an adventurous person the cleaver house is free to live in for life if you renovate it okay well move on in there look it up right apparently that's what they say back splash to live there apparently look it up we need a small bed and breakfast in a small restaurant so they're saying move in there and do that the only tavern in town is current currently is kelly's

now this is a great review and on this site it has you know agree and disagree seven agreed and 16 disagreed so no sir no sir but like i looked up this this tavern because this has reviews kelly's kelly's and it is they are night and day whether you're a local or not a local if you're a local it's the greatest place in the world the food's amazing they tell you all the shit to get if you're not a local, here are the reviews. One star. Horrible. My wife and I went to Kelly's before Memorial Day.

Place is real dark like a dungeon. Waitress was snotty right from the start. Ignorant. Ignorant would be an understatement. Waited about 10 minutes while she screwed off doing nothing, and then we got up and left. Save both your money and your time. So I was like, maybe it was like five minutes, and she was just letting you get settled some people are dicks all right so then i kept reading more and i found locals only one says one star chef gary curry is so right we will never go again

we sat at least 30 minutes for a drink then there were when there was three people steady getting served the barmaid looked right at us and ignored us. We ordered two platters. Forty minutes later, no platters, and she said she forgot. I told her to keep them. So go to the Augustine Inn, better class of people. Okay. So basically, if you're local, it's a hangout, and if you're not, they just don't, they won't serve you.

You got all day to get your platter. Come on by. Yeah. Otherwise, you're on vacation go somewhere else eat dicks yeah we don't want your money so there you go it's a it's a that's the kind of place we're looking at here a little kind of i don't like the word wetlands i don't like that in the description it sounds marshy muggy and lots and lots of bugs i was just gonna say i see bugs in the air yeah like when you look look over like in Florida and you can just see clouds of shit floating.

Yeah. Big things, little things. You're like, oh, yeah. The big things are eating the little things in midair. There's a strange buzzing going on that you're not sure what that's from. Am I supposed to hang out with my kids in this? I don't think so. No.

No. That's why we don't live in Florida. Don't say wetlands. No. Wetlands. And wetlands are a good thing environmentally, but they sound disgusting to hang out in. I don't want to live there. No.

Let's plot my house in the wetlands that'll be good uh the population of this town people not a lot 310 people so it's a this is one of the small ones where the stats are all messed up because it's so small uh females there's about 55 female which is obviously pretty high age wise it's lots of kids few old people and that's about it median age is 31 it's a low median age but there's a ton of kids here so whatever take from that whatever that's worth less married people than normal here only 35 married 0.0 percent widows here none none no no one's spouse has died here okay Okay. That's interesting. Divorce rate's a little bit high, but obviously you never know. Yeah.

The household size is like four and a half per household, which is like double the national average, which is interesting. I never usually do that stat, but it's way out of whack here. 0.0% single with no children, people. So if you're going to party and look for some single folk. That's nuts. Don't go to Kelly's Tavern, order some platters, and expect to meet some single people,'s nuts don't go to kelly's tavern order some platters and expect to meet some single people because it ain't gonna fucking happen it's just not you're not gonna get your platter or pussy or well you might there'll be

a kid crying in the next room anyway because a single with children is 45 of the population oh wow which is three times the normal wow so that's mainly so they'll almost half yeah they'll have kids waiting at home you know burning the house down and shit but uh you know they're not gonna that's incredible it's wild race of this town it's 88 white yeah 0.0 black 0.0 asian 0.0 hispanic what is it 11 12 the other 12 is two or more races so at least part white. So everyone's at least part white in this town. Everybody's white. Everybody's white.

Everybody's white in Delaware. And with 12%, I was like, is this going to go like Lebanese? There's just like a huge Lebanese. All Algerians. That's all it is. It's very strange. Algerians, Albanians. It's very, anybody that starts with an A is welcome there.

No one else. Aryans. Afghanis. Nobody else. And obviously Aryans. Now, religion here, it's about 47% religious, which is a little low, but not much. It's usually 50-50. Not a lot of Baptists here, so you can tell it's the middle region.

26% Catholic, though. Catholics are the Baptists of the mid-Atlantic region. Over there? Over by the Atlantic Ocean. Just beyond New England? Yeah. Catholics tend to hug tight to the water. Put it that way.

Well, get right in there. All your ethnic people and italians and everybody else in the east coast uh 0.7 percent jewish almost oh so close guys we're so close so close but not quite the uh last election in the whole county and there's like 400 000 people in this county yeah so you can't i don't know what the political leanings of are this of this town the county was 62 democrat 32 republican five percent independent in the last election unemployment rate here is about average it's you know for now a little under four percent median household income is low though compared to the rest of the country. The rest of the country is about $57,600. Here it is $36,875.

So that's a little bit low in terms of that. Pretty much everybody makes between $30,000 and $50,000. That's interesting. To live that close to the water. Yeah, that close to the water, but it's not like... It's marshy. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like living... This isn't a beachfront property type of place. There are some nice nice places here but it's also kind of dumpy in a way as well

so we'll talk about here cost of living 100 is regular average par uh cost of living here is 94 so it's a lot of things are high except for housing which is low actually housing is a 68 really yeah median home cost here 157 000 super affordable it is it's low it Housing is a 68. Really? Yeah. Median home cost here, $157,000. Super affordable. It is. It's low. It's low. A lot of the houses I'm looking at,

20% of the houses are worth under $20,000. 20%? 20%. One in five. One in five. I assume that's a trailer. It's not a house. Dilapidated shit box.

I don't know. Most of the houses, 66% are between $150, are between 150 and 2000 200 000 so that's your that's your norm here that's where you get concrete with them that's exactly and if we've convinced you that you need to move to port pen maybe you can make that cleaver house better and get a better breakfast going or something we have for you the port pen delaware real estate report Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here is high for the housing cost. It's about $1,220, which is... Why would you? It's because a lot of people rent here, so the rent is higher than the housing.

There's not a lot of houses for sale, actually. It's hard to find them. I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,200-square 1200 square foot shithole it's a shithole it's a it looks messed up man like even from the outside it looks crusty okay you're like oh i don't want to look and see what the bathroom in there looks like uh 90 000 bucks okay so i mean a little bit affordable then i found 33 acres of land yes trees. Trees and wetlands and just... Yeah, cattails. Whatever. $849,000. That's a lot.

It's a lot. It's a lot. How many acres? 33 acres. Maybe it's not that much. That's a lot of land. Yeah. It's a bunch of land.

Not too shabby there. And then I found a four-bedroom, four-bath, if you want to stretch out. This is like the nicest house around. Four-bedroom, four-bath, 5,973 square foot. Wow. Huge. And it looks like the Beetlejuice house. Yeah.

It's like a square like that, you know, like a cool. Yeah, like a big square. It's cool. It looks like the Beetlejuice house. It's awesome. Does it have big high points on the roof? I think so, yeah. On the roof it has high points.

And it has like a guest house out back. It's kind of set up the same way. It has no walls and no roof. No walls. And that's what I was. I was so disappointed that the deck didn't have one wall on it. I was really mad. it's the weirdest thing one million one hundred ninety nine thousand dollars this house is set up for six thousand square feet it's beautiful too yeah it's a it's inside it's done right it's it's a nice house i mean you gotta if you're wealthy that's the thing to do

uh think speaking of things to do things to do oh boy in this town i found the smithsonian folk life festival yeah i imagine there's a lot of american history gonna get a lot of that shit things to do in this town. I found the Smithsonian Folklife Festival. Yeah, I imagine there's a lot of American history going on here. They established it in 1967. It honors contemporary living cultural traditions. What the fuck does that even mean? Say it again?

Those are just words they wanted to put together in a sentence that don't mean anything, really. We honor contemporary living cultural traditions. Oh, boy. Shut up. What, like someone making candles still sentence that don't mean anything really they we honor contemporary living cultural traditions oh boy shut up no what like someone making candles still in their house what are we talking about someone got a loom going on i don't know about isn't cultural traditions a little bit redundant too i mean yeah it's your culture is your traditions and they celebrate those who practice and sustain them so yeah it's people doing old school shit now right so wasting time that's

tradition produced annually by the smith the Smithsonian center for folk life and, and cultural heritage on the national mall. This festival has featured participants from all 50 States. Well, thank shit for that. Jesus Christ. As always, visitors can enjoy live music,

dance presentations. That's what I want to say. Craft workshops, cooking demonstrations, and our evening concert series that they don't tell you who's going to fucking be in bastards makes me mad because i really wanted to make fun of somebody also i found the wetlands festival of course gross gross uh festival celebrates and preserves the community's tradition of boats hunting fishing and trapping and trapping. Free admission and parking. That's what I'm talking about. More than 40 Delaware crafters, artists, and, quote,

voices of tradition, presenters on topics ranging from hanging net, hanging net for shade. That ought to last 12 seconds. You hang it here. You clip it to a tree here. What you do. Run out that net, clip out when it gets tight. And then when it's up, what you do run out that net clip out when it gets tight and then when it's up what you do is you stand under it and then you got yourself some shade uh sturgeon fishing as well crabbing and eeling gross gross what eeling to historic wooden boats trapping

progging and hunting progging sounds sexual it does that sounds like something i dude i fucking i said dude keep this between me and you when you pass out first but like keep this between me and you but bob's sister yeah i fucking progged her bro yeah it was it was don't tell him i mean no she was cool with it too she asked me to she was she was like anyway he's gonna be pissed but she he wouldn't be happy if he knew i did that to her because i mean she's still limping that's the only only problem but she wasn't upset about it i don't know so also the sailing shad skiff and also uh what oh oh it's a boat the groaning groaning miss oh boat will be there careful children's activities include jungle john with his live animal show which totally sounds like Kid Joe Exotic.

Yeah. When I looked at his picture, he is child... He's Joe Exotic for kids. Is he sitting there with a monkey? Is what he is. He's got, like, goats and shit. It's not even, like,

anything impressive. He's a farm animal, man. That's what I mean. Calm down. There's also going to be music from... Live music from a man named... I think I would have done this case even if the case sucked just to say that there's going to be live music by crab meat thompson because that's

this guy's name he's talking about local it's crab meat thompson there's a guy not aiming for the masses with his music i'm looking to really be popular in like northern Delaware. Crab meat Thompson. I need an audience of about 300 that'll get me two gigs a year. That Chesapeake Bay area is really going to set it off for me, I feel like. Chances to win bed and breakfast getaways and morning duck hunts. You're going to win a duck. Congratulations, Jimmy.

You may wake up at four in the morning and sit in the wetlands. That's the only way I get permission? There you go. Congratulations. Sit there at the crack of dawn blowing into a fucking wooden duck call? You know it.

And of course... I have to sit through crab meat for that? Crab meat. Well, you get to sit through crab meat, Thompson. I believe is what you're saying. Only after Jungle John is done. Right. Crab meat. See, this is the thing about Crabmeat. He's a fucking pro.

He's not going to upstage Jungle John. Jungle John's going to have his goats doing whatever they do, fucking each other's faces. He's not going to come up and start strumming in the middle of that. He's going to wait until it's his time. Center stage, now it's Crabmeat.

Ladies and gentlemen, all the way from wilmington crab meet thompson jungle john's gonna go wash that jizz off his hands now jungle jizz john jungle john jizz jizzy jungle john there's a song there john jizzy jungle hymer smith that's our guy and crab meat thompson so and crab meat oh boy also of course uh food trucks because we all want to smell diesel exhaust while while jungle john does his thing i want to eat a 14 grilled cheese while i smell diesel exhaust thank you uh the uh because it's a family friendly celebration partially funded by a grant from the delaware humanities so you can check into that it seems like there's zero forethought

into the planning of fucking actual fun i would say so this doesn't sound fun no right now march 2020 they're having some problems because apparently there's a cemetery that they're saying they're they're built there's like a cease and desist order where they're trying to fight because the cemeteries are built over like the town's water supply because it's all well water so they're concerned that uh some bodies that are without vaults or coffins are going to are contaminating their water supply so there might be leaking corpses in this town's water supply as well. Body sludge.

Body sludge. You better get a Brita. So Brita, shit. That's making Flint look tasty. Hmm. Give me that methane. That's great. Holy shit, man.

At least it's not my Aunt Kathy. Shit. So yeah, it's a little interesting, that is. So crime rate in this town besides corpse contamination uh property crimes a lot of crime here is double the national average around here and violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault is triple the national average it is dangerous triple i don't know what is going on with these 310 people and why they're so messing with each other so much they're upset about the loss of the fishing industry and the

breakdown of the swedish cultural setup that they had i feel like that has to be it so that said let's talk about a murder all right welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on wondery plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.

With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app

or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Because I'm sure there's a lot of them, but I found this one, and whoa, it's a wild one here. Let's get into it. This is one of those, just when you think

it's over, it is far from over. There's so much more. It's just wacky. Let's start out. Let's go back in time. Time to get in the time machine, Jimmy. Me and you, we're spinning. Clocks are going and lightning's striking. There's William Penn in time time to get in the time machine jimmy me and you we're spinning clocks are going and lightning striking hey look at him how you doing we'll get to you later we'll ask you later so now we are like bill and ted yeah looking for william penn to explain himself right explain yourself quaker what'd you do fucker what'd you do why'd

they like you so much i'm sure you diddled somebody so uh i bet it was crab meat thompson so uh let's go back to 1990 september 30th 1990 okay september 30th 1990 uh there uh there's a young uh young lady 22 years old named julie spencer yeah and her mother wakes up that morning and she was supposed to be home the night before, and she's not there. She's missing. The night before, September 30th, is when we're starting. She had planned, Julie planned to go roller skating.

She's a regular at the Christiana Roller Rink. She's always there. She's got her own skates and everything. Hell, yeah. Slung over the shoulder. This feels 1977. Yeah. But it's 1990. I went around that time. there she's got her own skates and everything slung over the shoulder this feels 1977 yeah but it's 1990 i i went around that time they were people did here too she was like a poppin they

called her an av she's into it an avid skater like her mom was like that's all she did and uh yeah so the next morning she's not at home and she fails to show up at work oh no uh she she works as a dental assistant uh also so she fails to show up for work she doesn uh she she works as a dental assistant uh also so she fails to show up for work she doesn't come home her mom freaks out a little bit and starts first starts contacting friends and fate did julie spend the night at your house and you know back then you'd have to call around you'd have everybody's number and you'd be searching for scraps of paper right where is it oh my god fingers are exhausted absolutely so uh nobody knows where she is everybody said that you know didn't she go roller skating she said she was going roller skating the

night before just like she told her mom and no one knows where she is so people start they begin to look for her and finally that night on october 1st at about 9 45 p.m they find her car which is good that's something uh in a parking lot behind Christiana Mall, which is right by the roller rink. So that they have her car at this point skating, but they don't have her. Yeah, it's in the parking lot. It's about a mile from the skating center. It's right down the road, basically there. So her mother, Susan, you know, she just she's keeps she keeps asking too. She contacts the police, obviously, and file a missing persons report.

But she also she goes to the skating rink and everybody there. Nobody could recall seeing Julie there that night. No, no. And she's a regular. So everybody knows when she's there. Hey, Julie, how's it going? All the good at it. The staff and people that hang out there.

I guess it's like certain people go certain nights to the roller rink. I don't know if it's like a bowling league kind of. I don't know. Like it's Thursday night. I don't know. I mean, there is that. Yeah, I guess that's true. I suppose.

It was pretty popular on Friday nights, I think. Yeah, this was like a Sunday night. I don't know if it was Sunday night skate around. It's probably cheap on Sunday nights, maybe. Who knows? Like they do like bowling. Right. Hey, come in at 10 p.m. on a Sunday.

It's 50 cent games or whatever the free shoes or some shit so here uh she says so susan doesn't think her daughter ever got to the rink because you know nobody reckoned nobody saw her at least her car did her car got a mile away from the rink oh it's over there it's a christiana mall a mile away so no one recalled seeing julie uh week goes by few days go by and they you know police start to go you know going over her car for evidence maybe there's some form of a some struggle or something like that uh they also they question her friends they question everything like this a week later this is thursday from a sunday night she went out sunday night never came home thursday they really

thursday's when they really buckle down and they're like, we should really start asking around. I don't know if it's because that was like maybe 48 hours. She's an adult, whatever. But I would think once they found her car, but not her, they'd go, we should probably start looking. Right, right. But a mall's a place you might meet a friend and leave your car and get in their car.

But for four days? That's the thing. That's crazy. Seems like a little much. 48 hours seems like a long time. That's... Yeah, yeah absolutely so who the hell is julie first of all we got to find out a little bit about her apart from a great skater apart from a from a she can skate backwards like nobody's business oh boy hands behind her back skating i took my kids doing that shit because the school had some skating yeah and it is hysterical how bad they are at it and i oh yeah

they're terrible. I'm skating backwards. I look like a badass and I'm lapping them and coming... They've got PVC walkers for kids that don't know how to do this shit. We went to one of Sarah's

nieces' birthday parties and this was before I had health insurance and they're like, you want to skate? I was like, I'm going to fuck no. I don't have health insurance.

I could take half a lap around and be in debt for the rest of my life. I can't do this. Yeah, that'll make me sign a waiver. I'll be fucked. This is crazy. I'm going to be in deep shit here.

But yeah, they give the kids lawn chairs without the back, basically, and they have to walk around with that shit. That's not fun. Why are you doing that? Just get out there. Fall down a few times. You'll figure it out. That's what we used to have to do.

You'll figure out falling down hurts. Yeah. And then when you do it well, you feel great about it. When this way i fall i better keep it up here oh too far that way better keep it here now how are you gonna learn that if you have a walker my son's he's got his feet apart from each other and they just started drifting and he goes help help and i was like no you're going down and then he fell i. I just picture Julie going forwards and switching up backwards while Dancing Queen plays over the thing. I know it's 90. On the left foot, you're on the back wheels.

And on the front one, on the front wheel. I picture her totally doing disco roller skating for some reason. Well, let's talk about Julie here. She's 22 years old. So an adult. Very small. She's 5 foot tall, 110 pounds. That's why she's great at this

very yeah it's easy to be great but very very tiny person obviously julie is so not a not a formidable human being that you know physically anyway that could fight people off or something like that brown eyes long brown hair she has braces that's how you know young she is she's 22 but the roller skating with the stature the braces she comes off like maybe 14 15 is if you see her like if you saw her at the mall yeah you go oh that's a teenager who's maybe into maybe a sophomore possible sophomore yeah she's she's pedophile candy as we'll say i would meanwhile old enough for a 401k but still yeah she's a dental assistant though still so she's driving her white 1987 ford escort which i described to you i think last week the tough car friend had the exact same car where you turn the radio up and the headlights dim so

not a great car but in 1990 still this my friend had it like 96 so that thing had seen better days and in new york and in new york so yeah a lot of it'd been beat up it was rusty it was shitty so it was 87 ford escort she was driving and that's what they found at the mall she's a graduate of william penn high school there you go yeah everything is she's got it involved too son of a bitch she graduated in 87 and she is also graduated from the delaware technical and community college in 1988 and became a dental assistant from that so that's that's kind of she's a young lady who does her shit together she goes out roller skating she hangs out she's

doesn't do anything crazy she's not a drug addict she's not like into weird things and you know she doesn't have some strange interest. Her hobby is roller skating. You don't get any more innocent than that. So, yeah. So apparently they look into it. She left her home where she lives with her mother at 7 p.m. on Sunday night, September 30th. She left. She told her mom that she was going to the Christiana Skating Center on Christiana Road.

And she does that about once a week, at least her mom said. So that's just, all right, cool, have fun. Obviously, she's doing that. She had her skates over her shoulder by the laces and everything. And she hugged her mom and she said, have a good one. Taking off now. So that was it. And Susan said she woke up during the night and wanted to get a glass of water

and noticed that Julie wasn't wasn't home. And she said that Julie never had stayed out overnight ever without telling her. She was staying at a friend's house, whatever. But she would never just not come home at night. So she was worried. But she still thought she's a grown up. She's 22. Right.

And back then there's no cell phone. So it's not like she can text her. And you literally have to start calling people's houses at three o'clock in the morning, which is very disruptive, and you've got to really be sure of some shit to do that. And if she's there, I mean, if she's not there, it's just disrespectful. That's what I mean. It's an asshole thing to do. You're going to wake up all of her friends' parents and all of her friends, and that's crazy.

You can't, on a Sunday night especially, too. You've got to work in the morning. I have to get up in two hours you bitch what the fuck are you doing calling me people are going to be so mad we're here my sister why are you yelling it's like you just why'd you call me a bitch you're the same mother so she uh she waits till the morning and she calls up uh the the dental office where her daughter works to see if her daughter showed up for work there. Maybe she stayed at a friend's house and got dressed and went to work. Right.

And weirder things have happened. So she said when she called, the dentist's office said to her, quote, we were just getting ready to call you to ask where your daughter was. So the answer's no. Answer, she's not there. They were literally saying the phone rang as they were picking it up to call to see if Julie was coming in today because she hadn't shown up. And they said that the office manager said that she's always been very prompt and always showed up for work on time, most of the time early. She's never missed a day without calling, and she's never late before. So this is a concern for everybody.

Sure. Julie's not someone who goes missing. She's reliable. She's never late before. So this is a concern for everybody. Sure. Julie's not someone who goes missing. She's reliable. She's very reliable. And like I said, never, never failed to show up for work. Never stayed out all night. None of that shit. So police are very, very puzzled and they don't know what to do.

Her mother goes to the press to talk and see if she's out there. Julie, if you're there, please call home. That sort of thing. thing i mean i don't know because you never know what's in people's pets weirder things have happened where sometimes we've seen this a lot where someone might have a secret like a secret boyfriend that lives somewhere else and they'll just take off i mean we found it's happened multiple times where like teenage kids disappear and they think they're kidnapped and turns out they met somebody on the internet and they stole their grandmother's second car and drove four states to go see them and so it happens so you never know but and this town is so small you can almost go to every house and ask them in an afternoon everybody you could say have you seen julie and they you know you can pretty much ask everybody the word will get around quickly

that julie's missing. And Susan tells the paper, Susan's her mother, she says, quote, we know if she could get to a phone, she would. If she could contact somebody, she would. We're just baffled. They think that she wouldn't be doing that. So where the fuck could she possibly be? I'm curious. Where is Julie?

Well, let's go back to Saturday, September 29th. Two days ago. Two days before. Two days before. Five days ago. The night before she disappeared, though. Julie is at her boyfriend's house, a guy named Kevin Shantz. And they were babysitting for Julie's niece at Julie's house. So, yeah, you know.

There's a lot of oral going on. Yeah, you know, that goes. Yeah, that's what you do. You can come over and quote. Go to sleep. I'm going to fuck you. Quote, help me help me babysit you know the kids go to bed early what are you gonna do for a couple hours yeah you know you can only eat so many popsicles and you got nothing else to do i ate all their hot pockets now what i'm inviting my girlfriend over my boyfriend

so uh their friends were also there though so yeah it was like they were hanging out babysitting hanging out their friends vicky cunningham tom craft were also there, though. So, yeah, it was like they were hanging out, babysitting, hanging out. Their friends, Vicki Cunningham, Tom Kraft, were also there, another couple. A little double date. Yeah, they're just hanging out. You know, nothing better to do. They got to watch the kids, so let's all hang out over here. During the course of the evening, while they're all there, Julie gets a phone call from they didn't know who it was at first.

She gets a phone call. She talks for a couple minutes and hangs up and doesn't bring it up. She doesn't say anything. But later on, she tells her boyfriend and her friend Vicki Cunningham, she tells them that who called before was actually Glenn McDonald, who was her ex-boyfriend.

Oh, Glenn. Okay, now Glenn, we'll talk about them and what they were into, but they were in a relationship for about three years. That was never good. One of these very stormy fighty you know young breaking up every other month and i i saw you cheating with this one and you cheated without young young bullshit you know when when young people are together but don't belong together but they think they do yeah it's it's bad because they'll keep trying

and just creating more baggage yeah you gotta carry for the rest of your fucking life exactly if you don't wash your hands of this garbage that's what it is so she says look it was glenn you know she he called me and you know it's he had something to tell me yeah now glenn told her that he has something she might want oh okay he says i have something you might be interested in having here julie now leading up to this by the way they've been broken up for about nine months leading up to this though there have been multiple attempts at of glenn to try to get her back good lord we'll get into it a little bit. He wrote her a letter and he, you know, you're my heart and all that shit. You know, one of those.

Yeah, please. I have nothing else. Letter last ditch letters. One of these letters that can be held against me for the rest of my life. Yeah. Bad one here that she's going to save in a little box and giggle with her friends in five years. My broken heart box. These are all the men I've broken.

She opens it. Here's the first one glenn that's as we're not talking about julie specifically as men we just assume that you all have a box that you keep correspondence from from men whose hearts you've ripped out of letters of embarrassment from people like us the fuck the bars i'm sure women have the exact op they think that men have that box like i really got her this time and we both feel that way that's what's funny because it's meanwhile i burn all that shit i don't want to look at your fucking right in the garbage especially if we're not together so uh he says uh this thing that i have that you might want it's very interesting it's a it's a vhs tape oh no no it's a vhs tape and on this tape

is us fucking oh no um yes i made this without your knowledge right so he made a sex tape without her knowledge a while back asshole glenn first of all not cool at all hey and second of all really gotta put some effort into it it in 1990 89 when they were together to secretly film someone having sex like if you if you were like a regular person that didn't have like you know a fucking some hidden camera equipment you had to get a v okay you couldn't put like now like a webcam somewhere and hide it like people do or whatever you had to get a vhs recorder that was the size of it was basically you put a vcr on your shoulder with a lens on the end of it put a microwave on your shoulder and you just and record your day and you turn it on and it sounded like a

snowblower too the tape whirling the fucking fan going it was a it was a hardcore piece of equipment well it imprinted images on a film anything that's ever recorded in the 80s you just hear like this whirring and a film sound and and if if he's a cheap shit as we'll talk about i don't think he he has that much money it's probably an older model camcorder which those he probably had like the the briefcase of battery that you had to carry with it so So you have a microwave on your shoulder connected to a cord that has a briefcase on it. You almost got to hire somebody to be a cameraman to make a video of you fucking. Yeah.

And if she didn't see that giant red fucking light on that thing that illuminates the whole room when it's recording. How messy must his room have been to have that blend in? Holy shit. He had to make like a pile of clothes to hide it so i'm trying to think how else would you do it like so but either way not putting it on her at all but still no jesus christ this is and and no he had to put some effort on into this three years prior it's possible this is fucking kiddie porn too and she's 22 so yeah i guess even yeah they got together after she was 18 so now everybody's of age here damn it and he's two

years older than her so that's he's 24 glenn so that's not an issue it's just a matter of he filmed someone without their consent having sex and now now he's, after they're broken up and she's with somebody else, he's saying, I got this tape you might want, which is creepy. I don't want it anymore. It's sticky. Yeah. If you feel bad about it, then fucking destroy it. Right.

Don't do this. It's, he says that, or she tells, Julie tells Vicky and Kevin and everybody here that Glenn McDonald, her ex-boyfriend, wanted to meet her in order to give her the videotape. He feels bad about it. He wants to give it to her. Whatever. So, like I said, this relationship ended in January 1990. We're in September now. So, he had been making a lot of attempts to salvage the relationship.

But she's with this Kevin Schantz guy. And she likes him. And and they get along and she doesn't have any interest in being with Glenn anymore. I guess over the summer, he had made a bunch of declarations to her. Like I said, wrote her a letter that we'll have quoted in a little while here. Then he continued to go after her when she wouldn't reciprocate and then finally he lately over the summer had been threatening consequences if she dated anyone but him you better not date anyone else i'll fucking kill that guy and i'll make sure that no one wants you anymore the typical possessive psychopathic ex-boyfriend plug in plug in whatever threat weird ominous thing you want to and he said it to her weird shit there so on the 30th september 30th uh julie calls her boyfriend this is the sunday

julie calls her boyfriend kevin and kevin is stationed at the aberdeen proving ground in aberdeen maryland so i don't know if he's in the military a station there so he must be so uh according to this he got off the phone with her at about 6 50 p.m and she said at that point she didn't tell her mom this but julie tells her boyfriend that she's going to meet glenn to pick up the videotape while he's at work well while he's yeah over there which you're there this is where i'll be if you're this guy you probably want to go with her yeah like to go do this you don't want to especially if he's threatening and you don't even know i'd be like i'm first of all i'd be like i don't even know if this videotape is real and i'm going to come

with you just in case also i'm in the military i operate guns for a living yeah i'm not afraid of this idiot so apparently she said she's going to do that and then she was going to go skating after that and hang out with her friends and do all that shit. So a little bit before that, on Tuesday, September 25th, a few days earlier, before the weekend, she also told her friend, Rena McKee, who was a co-worker of hers, that Glenn had called her the night before, on Monday the 24th, and told her, and Glenn had told Julie that he wanted to see her on on Sunday evening in order to give her something but wouldn't say what it was. And then later on, that's when she told. Yeah, it's this is what I got. She wasn't biting. Yeah.

So then Saturday came around. He's like, look, this is what it is. Videotape us fucking. You want it? Otherwise, I'm going to I don't know. Make copies and mail them out. It's 1990. With forethought to stick around.

Post them on YouTube. Right. I'm going to digitize them. Right. So later on, they could be. I'm going to put these on. Now, YouTube, I could post them on whatever horrible revenge porn site I can find. I'm going to go to your friends list and send them to all your family.

That's what it's going to be. Everybody. But not now. Right now, I'm going to have to actually. I'd have to. It's a lot of stamps to send to VHS tape. I don't know how many stamps. That's the problem.

How much postage do you put? If I can find out the correct amount of postage, I'm going to make everyone think you're a whore. Your whole family is going to get it. Your whole family. Your grandma is going to see this shit. I'm going to label it Julie's 17th birthday. They're all going to watch it. Everybody.

So, yeah. I'm going to label it coming of age. Know what I'm saying you know what i'm saying wink wink terrible shit here so so poor julie here julie uh she uh said told her boyfriend she was going to the risk skating rink after she meets glenn at his house his house is like right by the skating rink it's between the skating rink and the mall oh basically and it's it's right there it's all within a half mile uh his house is within a half mile of both so uh she told him that uh and then she told her mother that she might stop at a friend's house before the rink opened because the rink opens at eight but she didn't know so that's how that went down and then obviously she was never seen at the rink. So as far as anyone knows, everybody really wants to talk to Glenn. Yeah.

Clearly, Glenn, would you like to see a picture of Glenn, Jimmy? Let me put glasses on. There you go. Let's take a look at that. Put 24 years. That's a 24 year old man. And he has a mustache. He looks like a 36 year old man with a with a shop teacher mustache.

Yeah. It's really looks like a guy year old man with a with a shop teacher mustache yeah it's really looks like a guy that hates his job he's got those glasses that are like the the dark at the dark at the top like yeah not at the bottom like a guy who's like a famous drummer in the 70s but by now he's just got these glasses on so nobody sees who he is all the strobes have hurt his eyes over the years you know it goes that's what he looks like. He's got a real shit mustache, too. It's a little...

It's a terrible little mustache. There's a bit of space in between each hair. But, I mean, we're talking clean shave and mess of the face. Just pow, stache happening. Just this. Boy, oh, boy. And a weak chin, which is not how you... You don't run that out there.

No. If you have a weak chin, you can't do mustache and no beard. Right. Because then it makes your top lip look like it sticks out even further and your chin looks like it's even further in. You can look like you got an overweight. Yeah. You have a mustache if you have like a big, strong, like you need like a Tom Selleck chin to have a fucking mustache.

That's what you need. Jay Leno could probably rock a hell of a mustache. He could rock a Raleigh Fingers. He could twirl it at the end and put wax in it. He could legitimately weld a push broom to his face. He could just put like a Pomeranian on his face. Just fucking glue it there and it would look normal. Nip a German Shepherd's tail off.

Perfect. He'd be like, I'd like it to be fuller, actually. That's the thing. Need to get a chow chow up here. There we go. A chow chow on either side. Nice and puffy. Big curlies on either side. Because the tailsow up here. There we go. A chow chow on either side. Nice and puffy. Big curlies on either side.

Because the tails curl anyway, so there you go. Now, Glenn McDonald, he is what's called a shade tree mechanic. What the fuck is that? Which means he's a mechanic that doesn't have a job. Right. So he goes around to people's houses and fixes their cars for $50. In other words, he's unemployed and sort of knows how to fix cars. That's what that is.

I thought that was a clever way of saying he's a landscaper. No, no, no. Definitely not. He's also a part-time truck driver now and then. He's basically just a dirtbag who does whatever. He's a lowlife. I like it. A lowlife who does all this and films girls

without their fucking consent he works to get beer money and and then that way maybe in a vhs tape right that he can use a couple of max cells that's it right there so on october 2nd he spoke to the uh detective in charge that's when the detectives were just calling around to acquaintances. This is the day after her mother reports her missing. Like I said, he lives in a development just across from all of this. They were interested in talking to him the most.

He's the ex-boyfriend, lives close to everything. Heard you might got a porno. That's the other thing, too. So, yeah, the detective finds out about that, that he offered to return the tape and everything like that. Now, McDonald, Glenn, tells the detective, Detective Larimore, that he's upset and worried about the attention that he's attracting due to this. He's like, hey, I'm getting your phone calls from you.

Her mom called me. This is a lot of attention. I'm a little pissed off about this. And they're like, well, you should be more worried about this girl missing. You know, presumed foul play happening here like what you know maybe a concern about that rather than this barrage of phone calls you're getting god forbid now i'm extra pissed at her because she disappeared and now my phone won't shut up all i got to remember her by is this damn porn that i made of us against her will now isn't that terrible't I wronged? Don't you feel for me? Yeah.

Empathize with me, cocksuckers. So, yeah, he's very wronged, this man. Now, on October 3rd, the next day, he is again spoken to by the police. This time, his attorney, Daryl Baker, is also at the interview. So after the initial just, hey, have you seen Julie? Right. He lawyered up. What did he pay with a retainer i don't know i got this video me and my ex-girlfriend got any transmission problems because i could probably come over and crank on it a little bit i don't

know if he was exchanging it for for for amateur porn or shade tree mechanic isms yeah not positive but uh he was there. He lawyered up and brought a lawyer. He's the only person that they out of the 20 people they talked to who the next day had a lawyer.

Interesting. Which is an interesting thing. But I mean, hey, listen, you're legal, right? And if you get a rich person and police want to talk to them for five

seconds, it will be with a lawyer present because anyone who can is going to be represented. So and there will be a sore neck of the anyone who can is going to be represented so and there will be a sore neck of the rich person from looking over to their lawyer before answering every question exactly that's why they're paying them so this detective he says that uh that the lawyer daryl baker he called he called the detective to arrange the interview on october 3rd

and lara moore the detective he says that uh that you know that the attorney was there the whole time he was you know present for the entire interview uh now uh her at this point she's missing still and everyone's really freaked out here uh like i said everybody uh everybody shocked her dental office says quote we were totally shocked when we opened monday and she wasn't here like they're just totally they don't know what to do. One of her coworkers describes her as quiet and quiet and yet very friendly, a real asset to us. They said that she's she's he this office manager said he knew that she liked to skate and go dancing, but she didn't really talk about herself. She was just nice.

The office manager said she's not at all forward. She's just overall a very nice person. That's how everybody describes her. So the mother has all sorts of family over the house. Everybody's looking for her. They put up flyers. The family puts up flyers with a big reward for any information. I mean, this isn't some white trash family with the mother going i

don't know my kid's missing i guess i'll drink a fucking you know i'll drink some gin tonight and smoke three packs of cigarettes these are people that are like my kid's missing calling the cops making sure they're on their game putting up flyers they're pushing the investigation the the family this is a these are people that you know that care they give a shit yeah they really give a shit uh he sus they really give a shit. Susan, the mother, says, quote, we've had a lot of support from friends and family, and that makes it a little easier. She said, but this is something bad. I'm just afraid it's something really bad.

That is on October 5th. She says that. There is a motorist making a U-turn about a half mile from Port Penn, the actual Port Penn, and discovers what looks like some fabric on the side of the road and contacts state police. And they find Julie, who they assume to be Julie, in a state of some decomposition. They need dental records to identify her. Do you have any idea how many uh possible bodies that i've seen yeah i've seen so many shirts you never yeah i don't want to see that you don't want to know right this person goes i better call the cops right most of the bodies we we talk about

being found are by people who just stumbled across and we're like oh shit and call the cops there might be something there dude the the whole serial thing the whole hayman lee thing is only literally they found her because some guy i don't know if he was flashing or pissing it's all that's all up in the air of what the fuck he was doing there but literally some guy stumbled across or buried in the woods it stumbled across what he thought was a hand if i was in the woods and i saw something i thought was a fucking hand i am not calling anybody i'm gonna go away and never go back there and pray to christ whoever put that there didn't see me see that that's what i'm saying i don't know what's happening here and i don't want to get blamed for it if it does yeah and i don't want to be that poor guy on

cereal everyone's going what were you jerking off in there are you sticking things up your ass what were you doing in there? I don't fucking know. I was pissing. I found her. Who cares? Why don't you be thankful? I'm a good guy. Yeah, the potential amount of bodies I've found is staggering.

Because I go out in the woods and shit. Oh, yeah. I love it. You have. I take my Jeep out. I do stupid shit. And then I get out there and I see a shirt sticking out of the ground. I'm like, ah, that's gross. Jimmy's overlooked the whole Holocaust, probably. and then i get out there and i see like a shirt sticking out of the ground like yeah that's gross jimmy's overlooked a whole holocaust probably just

who knows what's out there overlooking genocide i've seen pants out in the desert oh yeah i'm not picking that up who knows what the hell snake in that yeah that's what i mean self-preservation plus i'm from it's just a different i got time i got i don't want to be in court okay i was brought up to where whatever happens you mind your own business that's the most important thing in the world is minding your business yeah that's it that's what my grandmother always told me we were outside i've told the story outside on easter one year when i lived in a shitty neighborhood and there was a drive-by down the street while we were all outside literally watched a car shoot shots at a house and drive right past us everybody and somebody at the party said we should call the cops and my grandmother said my you put that phone

down right now what the hell is wrong with you she said well that's none of your business you go inside you don't know what's going on with those people none of your business when you go inside made everybody go inside no one was allowed to call the cops none of your business. You go inside. Made everybody go inside. No one was allowed to call the cops. None of your business. You don't know if they had a coming or you don't know if now they're going to shoot at you. Not your problem is basically what it is. Are you shot? Yeah.

Then shut the fuck up. Then shut the fuck up. And even if you were shot, I didn't see who shot me. It's a weird Italian thing. And if they shot at you, you should handle it on your own. It's very strange. I don't understand it. But police, out. Not happening.

Not a thing so yeah this different these people are looking for bodies who's making a u-turn looking for bodies i'm going somewhere oh i have to turn around i'm gonna inconvenience myself further by a corpse no i've run over things out in the desert and looked at my rear view i was like i don't stop for that no i don't know what that was it wasn't't alive right now. So what's the difference, I guess, is in the desert. Not that this, you know, obviously this is a human being out there, but this is what you would think logically. I'm just shocked that they found her.

That's what I mean. Somebody making a U-turn. It wasn't somebody walking by or hunting or something like that. Smelled something. That's what I mean. They just looked and saw some clothes and stopped and said, I don't know what that is. Oh, that looks suspicious. I better call the police lucky they did though because this poor family was sitting

around waiting and wondering yeah it's which is horrible she was fully clothed which is i guess i mean i don't want to say good but it's a it's better than if they found her nude out there yeah you know for trauma purposes feels feels, feels less something, a little bit, maybe less, less bad happened to her, even though she's dead. Maybe an easier. Yeah.

Jesus. That's so hard to say. I know. But yeah, it is. Uh, so they identify her through, uh,

dental records. Like we said, it's a marshy area in Augustine beach, uh, by port Penn there. Uh, so this is, uh,

now that, now that she's gone and everybody finds out she's dead. It sends a small town to huge, just a huge shockwave through everybody here. They said that the doctor who she worked for said that she was, quote, very skillful at what she did. And all of our patients loved her. And they said a number of patients called the office during the week she disappeared. It's very somber here. It's extremely hard to accept.

You read about this kind of stuff in the newspaper, but you never think it's going to hit home, which is why we do small town murder. So October 9th, they want to talk to Glenn McDonald again after they find out it's her and everything. Again, he's with his counsel there. And like the previous couple occasions, he's spoken to the police. He denies any knowledge of her whereabouts i don't know shit about shit don't know shrug big shrug my lawyer wow she's

gone that's so sad i was trying to get back stop calling me that's it so they look into it a little bit they find a letter from march 1990 that she has in her possession. Not on her, but in her. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people.

With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell.

She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get

your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2

as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. In her room here where a part of it is, quote,

this is what he's quoted as saying. I hope, I'll talk to you later. Quote, you are my strength, my inspiration, my reason for living. He said, please listen to my words for they are words of life or death. Fucking jerk off. Jesus Christ. I love how he tried to my words, for they are words of life or death. Fucking jerk off.

Jesus Christ. I love how he tried to turn into Shakespeare for me. Please listen to my words, for they are words of life and death. Normal, if he was saying go into the store, he would never write for. He's like, it's more romantic this way. What a fucking dildo. You're a dick, Glenn McDonald. I've done my best to write some

nice things i don't think i've ever written any shit like that not like that please listen to my words for they are the words of life and death this is coming from a shade tree mechanic slash truck driver four what grade do you think he dropped out in we talking about here so uh also then they go to him for when they're going to him right after the body's discovered they try a different angle where they're just trying to get hey we need your help you know her and blah blah blah and he wouldn't say shit about shit he wouldn't try to help he wouldn't try to do anything so right away they are suspicious of him big time uh they had already questioned him and they also questioned his best friend a guy named alan smith who told them that both glenn and smith were at a restaurant in that area that

that on that night and they were together other people you know people had went with us blah blah blah restaurant a restaurant the rusty griddle i was gonna say kelly's Tavern, probably. He said that, you know, he was there. He tried to basically at first he said, we're at this restaurant. Then they came and said, look, come to this guy. And they go, look, we have some evidence here. Your boy lives here. We have this letter threats. He's saying there's a videotape.

There's a lot of stuff here and so basically if you don't start talking to us and giving us something that we believe we're going to start thinking you did this right basically so it's the old do you want to be a witness or a suspect thing that they like to throw at people and most of the time they'd rather be a witness than a suspect we're going to call much more that's exactly what it is so he said said, okay, tell you what. He goes, this is what happened. He goes, I was trying to protect Glenn. He said, when they first questioned me, I've been trying to protect him. But he said, finally, he wasn't going to talk about anything.

But then he said, quote, I was being harassed because of something I didn't do. And I got tired of it. So I decided I was going to say something. Big inconvenience i don't understand how i've never heard of this a murder investigation as being such an inconvenience to people where they're just do they call him at 3 a.m with a tip you know what i mean like every few hours just ringing his phone yeah you're not going to believe this line do they text him like three words at a time bleeding the one paragraph where they're doing like 19 texts

is that what and they're like i can't take it anymore save your thoughts up in one fucking paragraph is that what happened maybe they just annoyed him to death put it in the notes app oh my god you can do copy and paste you technologically fucking stupid bastard. So, yeah, he says he just got tired of it and said, fuck it. I'll tell you what happened here. He said, look, September 30th that night. That's the Sunday night. He said, I got woke up in the middle of the night by Glenn. Glenn said he needed some help.

by Glenn. Glenn said he needed some help. He said that they went to Glenn's house in Ogletown where he helped, where Smith helped Glenn load a piece of carpet and some old car parts from the garage into a pickup truck, and they drove to the yard of a garbage collection

company where Glenn used to work because it's only the finest of the jobs here. He works around nothing but garbage and I want a job where I can smell like rotten vegetables. I miss that. This is only the finest of the jobs here. He works around nothing but garbage. I want a job where I can smell like rotten vegetables. I miss that. I miss it while I'm doing my shade tree work.

And he dumped the items into a truck there. And Alan Smith said, quote, he kept asking me if he could trust me. That's what he was doing the whole time they were dropping a carpet and car parts off in the middle of the night. He's like, can I trust you? Can I trust you? Yeah. Be like, dude, we're obviously already involved in something a little off. It's 3 a.m.

If he doesn't know by now, he's a dope. You did something, obviously, that you need. What am I disposing of? What are we doing? What am I doing that's criminally negligent right now? Yeah. What's happening? So, yeah, he's like Smith then asked him, why are we dumping this shit? You know, sure, you can trust me.

Right. What are we doing? It's the middle of the night. I'm still asleep. Like, fuck, man. If I leave my eyes closed for seven seconds, I'll doze off. I'll go back. I could get back into that dream I was having.

I'll put it that way. I could, like, connect it. That's how close I am right now. That's how close it is. I'll jump right back in. I could connect it. That's how close I am right now. That's how close it is. I'll jump right back in. So obviously you can trust me. You can do it. And he said that Smith said, quote, he said it had something to do with Julie.

That's all he would say. He said, I asked, what about Julie? And he said, quote, she wasn't around anymore. Oh. That's what she said. So Smith said he eventually said that he did it. And I said, did what? and that's when he said he killed julie and uh they asked him those were his words and he said those were his words i guess

because i was his best friend and he wanted to get it off his chest which makes sense alan smith said he was freaked out by this you know i just strangled my girlfriend or ex-girlfriend here and uh he said that mcdonald told him how it went down apparently she came over and and basically uh uh she came over and they got into an argument and uh the argument went like they they would come outside and then go back in and argue more oh boy back and forth and finally when they were out in the garage he uh i guess he hit her and then he she he says that he there's how it went down. McDonald's told Alan that he directed her attention to a trophy atop a toolbox. He said, hey, look at that up there.

And while she was looking up, quote, he put the speaker wire around her neck and pulled her to the floor and onto the carpet. That's the carpet they just threw out. So, yeah, he tricked her and wrapped a speaker wire this is like how you would like a mobster would do it or uh this is like how joe pesci like we're gonna make him and you go hey what's going on they shoot him in the back of the fucking head like this is this is what's happening or any dude you know named carl yeah it's fucking gross he said then quote he said he held on to her until she stopped moving. Oh, fuck, man.

Fucking piece of garbage. Yeah. Then he said, he asked, you know, why'd you do it? Why? I don't know. One of those things. And he said, quote, it was kind of like he couldn't have her. If he couldn't have her, nobody could.

Right. It was one of those. Ew. Yeah. He said that McDonald then told him that he wrapped her body and took it to a wet, marshy area near the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal and dumped it. So, yeah. So, apparently, there was a red carpet that got dumped. It happened in the garage, and that's where it went from there to there. So, Glenn is indicted in October of in october of 1990 here charged with first degree

murder of course okay right away he's trying to get a bunch of shit suppressed immediately he's his lawyers are really active i don't know what the deal is with this guy i don't know if his family has a couple of bucks or what it is but he's got a lawyer that's got their shit together here and they're trying to uh uh they're to get some, because there's also blunt force injuries. So that's what I'm thinking the car parts were. He hit her with a car part probably to keep her from moving. Shit like that if she wasn't dying fast enough. So inconvenient when people don't die fast enough.

So, yeah, he's trying to exclude certain statements that she made during the week prior to her death. She's told the people that Glenn wanted to meet with her. And he's saying that's vague and doesn't really have to do with the murder because we can't prove it. So, you know, that should be squashed. But people heard her say that multiple people, not just one. So it's one of those things here. The state, the court directed the state to provide details regarding the statements of her and what they intended to introduce a trial and so basically they it was

just they said they they were just going to introduce the fact that she was frightened of him and the fact that he was saying he wanted to meet with her that's to that little thing here uh also mcdonald they talk about here he did a videotape interview and they want to squad they want to suppress that um yeah so uh uh now that the trial trial comes up and here are the the participants in this trial okay he here's the people going against him you got officer daniels he has testimony regarding uh people's statements regarding regarding Julie's statements to her friends about his her fear of Glenn. They let that in as well. The victim's mother here, Susan, she test.

She testifies regarding Glenn's behavior toward her personally as aggressive and a little bit standoffish and mean. A guy named Jeff Wiley testified that that Glenn used wiley's backyard to spy on julie after their breakup oh that's gross he lives near julie and he would go what a weird thing to ask your friend i'm gonna come over you mind i'm real busy right now it's all right i'll just be in the backyard no come on over the game's on well i ain't watching the game what do you mean you ain't watching the that's what we're doing over here so if you're coming over you't watching the game. What do you mean you ain't watching the game? That's what we're doing over here. So if you're coming over, you're watching the game. Not in the backyard, I ain't, pal. Just me, my binoculars, and Julie's house.

That is horrible. That is fucking terrifying and creepy. Also, her friend Hope, again, testimony that Glenn threatened to tarnish Julie's reputation if he ever saw her with another man. He said he was going to show everybody this tape. So I don't know how that would tarnish her reputation that she had her with another man. He's going to show everybody this tape. So I don't know how that would tarnish her reputation that she had sex with her boyfriend. It would tarnish your reputation

because you filmed it, you scumbag. Yeah, that's pretty gross. In 1990, I don't know if people thought that way or not. Oh, look at her. She's having sex. She must be a whore. God forbid. She's a grown woman having sex with a man.

No! Stop her now. Jesus Christ. Also, her brother julie's brother he testifies regarding glenn's statement that there would be trouble if uh apparently before this had gone on uh the murder and everything julie had a necklace that glenn had given to her and julie wanted to give it back to him she didn't want it anymore so she said that she was gonna her brother was gonna go meet glenn and give this necklace back a necklace that Glenn had given to her and Julie wanted to give it back to him. She didn't want it anymore. So she said that her brother was going to go meet Glenn and give this necklace back

to her and that Glenn told the brother that there would, quote, be big trouble if he tried to return the necklace to him. So don't you dare come over here with this necklace. There's going to be big trouble. He's threatening to beat up the brother for giving him a necklace back, which is very strange behavior.

This dude is unnecessarily aggressive. He's really mad about the wrong things. That's what I mean, unnecessarily aggressive. He doesn't want her to forget about him ever. No, ever. You can't give me that back, because then if she gives that back, then that's one less piece of him. That's one less tentacle on her.

Otherwise, then maybe if it's all... He's got a weird delusional thing. If she gives that back to to me there won't be a day that she opens up her jewelry box on easter to get dressed and see that and be like oh glenn how are you and that means too that she's returning your you take your stuff i take my stuff that's a physical separation that's obviously you'll never wear this i would only wear it but i still don't fucking care i want you to have the back gross that's the equivalent of getting a wedding uh an engagement ring throwing you like yeah one of those things so uh i hate you so much i don't even want to pawn i don't even want the three grand i'd get for this thing here you go or two grand or whatever the shit i don't know so yeah uh now during the trial also alan smith he is the star witness for the state. He's the guy who helped dispose of shit and got a first-hand talking to here.

So much for trust. Yeah, he testifies that he confessed to me. He did all of that. He said that he used Glenn's father's truck, Robert McDonald, to dispose of the evidence, including the red carpet, wire, and trash bags as well, and threw some stuff in here. But then Robert McDonald comes up and says, because he's Glenn's father, he comes up and says that Smith and his son couldn't have used the truck at that point. He goes, no, no, they didn't use my truck.

That's a lie. He said that it was in disrepair, and it couldn't have made the trip that this guy described. So it didn't happen here. So then Smith also testified that on the night that Julie died, he and Glenn drove the truck from Ogletown to a dump near Newark, Delaware, discarded the materials, returned to the McDonald home. And then Glenn drove Smith back to his house and dropped him off. That's how it went. house and dropped him off that's how it went uh now craig spencer julie's brother uh also he he um he was the one he comes out and then contradicts statements made by robert mcdonald and he says that uh spencer and robert had given jesus christ almighty basically they're fighting about he saw

the truck out and he's saying it was broken so they're fighting about whether a truck was broken or not in court just really when you have a guy describing blow by blow of what happened it's really kind of a moot point couldn't have done it that truck's a piece of shit yeah that's that's that's it man uh now on the defense he has some people on his side he has a woman named tracy melton who is his next door neighbor she acts as an alibi witness for him saying he was there saying she saw him home there is a next door neighbor uh he's also got uh another neighbor here uh thomas davis who's a 74 year old man who lives across the street that's who you want yeah but i mean he looks like what's this guy gonna lie he's not his buddy right it's not his like drinking buddy

who let him spy from the yard it's less creepy it's an old man that wears very thin plaid shirts i feel like he does and he i know and suspenders absolutely and a belt yeah that's because you never know yeah i like i love when i see that where's the belt because it's like a tombstone for my junk everything below this is dead now that's all dead so and it's smooth because it gets that roundness in the front that the old guys get. And it looks like it'd be smooth down there, like an action figure. Summary of a smooth taint. So 74-year-old Thomas Davis lives across the street from Glenn. And he said that between 7.30 and 9.15 p.m., he saw Glenn working in his garage.

I don't know if he watched him the whole time he said i stayed out outside on my bench until it started getting dark glenn was still home when i went inside so yeah he sat out there all night and stared at him doing whatever work he's look at him just working on stuff that's a fun night boy still doing it. Still working. That's a hell of a night. Well, I am exhausted from all his work. I'm bushed. I'm going out inside now. Am I tired? Man, he did something over there.

Now, during cross-examination, Davis couldn't specifically remember what happened the weekend before, but he insisted that he saw McDonald there on that night. So that's what they were like. Well, what happened? If you have such a great memory of specific days would you do the weekend before i don't remember why do you remember this then yeah like if not if it's just normal for him to work in his garage he was working in his garage why does that stand out to you in such stark fucking whatever so another defense witness here and angela bundick bundick b- B-U-N-D-I-C-K. Bundick.

Her name is Bundick. Angela anal sex here. Bundick? That's what that is. Yeah. Bundick. His dick is specific for one thing. It's Angela?

It goes in buns. Her name's Angela? Angela Bundick. Angela ass-stabbing. Angela M. Bundick. Oh, boy. Ma Bundick. Now, she testified that she saw Glenn at his home around 7.30 that evening.

She said she went there to talk with him, or with her mother, with Glenn's mother, not her mother. Bundick went to talk to Glenn's mother. Got it. Okay, and she said she stayed about five or 10 minutes and left. And Glenn was there the whole time. So these are his witnesses here. The defense also played a taped statement made by Laurel Smith, who's Alan Smith's brother, the star witness's brother. I'm sorry, Alan Smith's mother, not brother.

That's a lady's name. Poor Laurel. not brother jesus that's a lady's name poor laurel uh now laurel made this to oct this statement to police in october 1990 on this tape she said quote al told me he left with glenn and glenn dropped him off to shower and then went to work he had a best al he had a best al ah he had a best al by the way we'll do a watch along with Dope Sick Love one of these days. I can't wait. Definitely. He says, quote, I did not believe Glenn could do something like that. He's too good of a kid. That's what Laurel said.

Just wasn't believing it, that anything like that happened. He lawyered up, Laurel. Jesus. He laureled up, Laurel. So now his lawyer, Glenn's lawyer, he says, quote, everyone knows that Julie Spencer was terrified of Glenn McDonald, which is an odd thing to start out with to defend your client. Look, he scares his ex-girlfriend, right? Aren't you on his side? That's weird right away.

But he uses it to his advantage. He says Julie Spencer would have never gone to Glenn McDonald's alone. That's there. That's a good point. He says it was Al, not glenn who killed julie he said because uh he said the uh the he notes that there's a red carpet fibers found on spencer's body and there's also green carpet fibers there and a piece of maroon carpet was found in smith's house and smith owned a car with green interior carpeting. So they're like, must have been Smith, because they said that, you know,

Glenn set this up to give the tape back to her through his friend, because she was too scared to go see Glenn. Smart. So then Al must have just freaked out and killed her for some reason. Clever strategy. That's it right there.

They said Al tried to flee when he saw police searching his house which actually did happen when the cops came to search his house he ran he took he fucking ran out the back he knew already he knew he was in trouble for something uh so and he said that uh also a piece of hair found in julie spencer's watch band had some of the same characteristics of a sample of smith's this is pre-dna on a piece of hair they would look at they literally get a guy under a microscope and he looked the same to me take his two thumbs yeah stretch it out that's it pretty much so very difficult to tell with the eye all they could

tell was literally similar characteristics is what they would say is that is weird so uh glenn here he has to testify yeah he's fucked if he doesn't testify yeah everything looks real bad everybody's you know just indicating you you have to get up and say here's here's my explanation not only not me but here's what happened so uh they uh yeah they talked to him on the on the stand and he says he didn't. They bring up his talking to the police the first couple of times where he says he didn't know what happened to Julie. But during his trial, he has a little bit of different version of events here. Here he says that here's what happened. I didn't want to tell the cops because I was trying to protect my friend, but I was basically an unwitting accomplice to Alan Smith.

He just drug me into this vicious, nasty little plot he had. I had no part of it. And I was just I was scared for my own well-being. And I did what I had to do to survive. He's going to kill somebody that I don't like. What would he do to me? What would he do to me? You know, I mean, damn.

So I cried. I cried a tear. And then I just did what I had to do. Cause I knew now he said that, uh, that, you know, Alan Smith was his friend and he's the real murderer. He said that,

uh, he just put it all on him, put it all on Al. He said, Al, he said, he said, as a matter of fact,

Al confessed to me, um, you know, he said the night of the murder, he said he confessed to me and, I didn't tell the cops because I was trying to stand by my friend. Right. He's my friend.

You know, I mean, I get it. He had to kill Julie. Things happen. Who am I to fucking judge? You know, he said, so I was just doing that. He said, but, you know, that's what it is. That's it there. So it's a bad story.

Not a great story. He said that it was, you know, Smith. He destroyed the evidence and he said it was a red carpet from his house. my garage floor carpet that's also red that's not here anymore it's not that obviously right not that so they they uh also they they talked to a bunch of other witnesses who basically said that glenn began constructing his alibi the same night before julie was even known to be missing he was doing doing, like, setting up. I was here with you, right? And you were here, and we were all here tonight.

And everyone's like, yeah, okay, sure. Buying things and hanging on to receipts. Yeah, all right, sure. Like, they didn't know what the fuck, because he knew what he did. And now on cross-examination, the prosecutor has a little bit, he ties a little bit of fun with Glenn

about inconsistent statements to the police. By the way, there's a huge curveball coming here in a second. So after all this shit he says quote and after all these things i've listed you an innocent man gets still another chance to talk to the police and tell them the story and this is the first time you talk to the police after you knew julie's body was discovered they're talking about the october 9th meeting he said you knew she was murdered and dumped and yet for 97 pages you never once tell the story you told the jury today and he says no i did not and he goes uh isn't this the

is this the first time you've ever publicly told that story and he says no it's not and they said you tell me where you told this story publicly before and then uh the defense counsel he said that the prosecutor needed to define publicly so now we stop a murder trial to sit and try to define publicly. God damn it. This is fucking crazy. So they responded in the courtroom to the police, to the authorities, to the attorney general's office. Defense counsel then requested a mistrial based on that the prosecutor improperly commented on his client's failure to testify to testify to certain things yeah so he wants a mistrial boy is he swinging for the fences swinging for the

goddamn fences attorney now they're talking about the definition of publicly they the state had to provide a comprehensive definition of publicly prior to wikipedia for this whole thing yeah it's it's ridiculous the state was not using mcdonald's post miranda silence for impeachment purposes which would be you can't do that you can't say we mirandize him and he wouldn't talk anymore you can say we brought him in for a friendly talk and he said fuck you that that looks bad so uh they they said that rather than the state improperly impeaching his credibility using his pre-arrest inconsistent statements uh voluntarily given in spite of his miranda rights so they said that's what they used they used his and properly impeaching his credibility using his pre-arrest inconsistent statements voluntarily

given in spite of his Miranda rights. So they said that's what they used. They used his own statements, not his silence. And the defense was trying to say that he wasn't doing that. Now, also, he wants a mistrial for something else here. He argues that the court erred by failing to declare a mistrial when during cross-examination the uh the prosecutor stated that he was that mcdonald was represented by counsel on his first interview he said that makes me look guilty if you do that the prosecutor said now at the second time you talk this was his

quote at that point in time you'd gone and hired yourself an attorney and he said um sort of and the prosecutor said well there's a man named daryl you know starts going into the lawyer then they had a big uh they had a you know bench conference at the bench there they talked about it for a while and the defense was pushing for a mistrial super fucking hard here and the court instead says ladies and gentlemen of the jury i instruct you that you're not to infer anything from the fact that a person may on a particular occasion hire an attorney. You're certainly not to consider that fact, you know, as an indication of guilt that he hired an attorney. So that's all they need is an instruction.

Because a lot of times the juries, juries hear a lot of crazy shit and they're just instructed against it. You instruct away a lot of like human instinct. They can hear something that's horribly inflammatory and the judge will just be like strike that like you heard that you can't strike that you can't strike it from my memory from my mind of knowing things i have to pretend that that didn't happen yeah your brain gathers things and you can't just take a piece out of your puzzle your brain is constantly answering questions about your surroundings that's what it does trying to make a puzzle out of it puzzle. Your brain is constantly answering questions about your surroundings. That's what it does.

Trying to make a puzzle out of it. Trying to put all puzzle pieces together. You don't take pieces out. Your brain's like, oh, I want that piece extra now because it shouldn't. I'm not supposed to have it here. So in closing arguments, the prosecutor said that the evidence obviously points to Glenn. He said when he killed Julie Spencer, he needed a patsy. He needed an alibi. He needed

Al Smith. He had a best al. No one will ever know exactly what happened in that garage. Did the defendant try to talk her into coming back? Did Julie finally have the courage to say no? And did the defendant finally snap? Then he said, quote, he lost control. Spencer

had got away from Glenn McDonald and Glenn McDonald couldn't handle it. So that's the closing. Now, before the verdict, the jury goes into deliberations. They send them in there. The jury has some questions during the deliberations here. They come back and they have to answer questions posed by the jury. Here's some of the questions.

Here's some of the questions. Why did Detective Edward Mayfield testify regarding a body wire when no such evidence was presented on such surveillance? That's one question. They wanted to hear all stipulations made during the trial. Stipulation is an agreement between the defense and the prosecution to have certain evidence admitted to the record. So they wanted to see what that was. They also wanted the written conclusions of FBI reports on hairs found near and on Julie Spencer's body. They wanted that. And that said they were similar in characteristics to Smith.

They also they the apparently they told jurors to disregard any statements about the body wire because apparently a detective misspoke about somebody having a wire wearing a wire wearing a wire the prosecution said i believe you're mistaken he said oh yeah actually i am mistaken blah blah blah it was a quick little thing that meant nothing and they tried to make a huge deal out of it here uh now they said that basically they said during cross examination defense attorney asked uh the police why they didn't wire Al Smith up to get this confession from him and instead and Mayfield replied we already had somebody else to wear a body wire and it proved fruitful and then it turns out that that was a mistake he was mixing it up with another case there so they send the jury in uh now jurors uh uh after a few days they come to

the judge and they say they've reached an impasse and they can't come to a decision. Can't do it. So the judge says, sends them a message saying, get your shit in there. Get a fucking verdict. Yes or no, fuckers. I like when the judge just goes, yeah, I'm not going to accept that. No. But half of us think one thing and half of us think the other.

Well, you're going to have to convince each other. I don't know. Stop punching each other. But half of us think one thing and half of us think the other. Well, you're going to have to convince each other. I don't know. Stop punching each other. At that point, someone's going to vote a way that they don't believe if it's like that.

But that's the process. We got to keep this shit moving along. Court costs money. We can't do this again. We pay you guys like what? 12 bucks a day to sit in there? Fucking assholes are indecidable. You're unsure?

Right. Fry them or not. They don't care. Just let's move it along. So the judge sent a message, like I said, which instructs them to reconsider the evidence of each side. About 4.30 p.m. that day, he told them to resume deliberations Monday at 11.30 a.m. And then they did that that day. And then Tuesday at 930 a.m.

The jurors said they're still still still locked up. They said McDonald Glenn and his family seemed real talkative and happy. Well, Julie Spencer's family didn't run real thrilled about all this development. What the fuck? They finally come back. The jury is hopelessly deadlocked. Oh, my God. Mistrial is declared. Mistrial is declared.

And yeah, so nothing. Nothing. No conclusion on that. They try him again. Retrial. Retrial. Same exact evidence gets in. It's the exact same trial, pretty much.

You could just replay the things. gets in it's it's the exact same trial pretty much you could just replay the the things he has a couple of issues glenn does where the prosecutor makes a couple of references to quote the last trial or the last proceeding yeah which he says can uh you know poison the jury and he wants a mistrial but he doesn't fucking get one well the other point is that if if would if a juror if a prosecutor says shit like that that says to, that's in favor of him. That's positive for him. In our other trial, why was there another trial? Yeah, why was there another trial?

Why wasn't he convicted? Oh, he wasn't convicted? That's weird. That's weird. What did they find? Yeah, for him, it's just anything that you can throw out there. Now, midway through the trial, this is interesting, midway through the second trial, the prosecutor goes to the to

mcdonald with a plea plea deal yeah see if he'll take it it's a plea deal for second degree murder which has a maximum of 20 years in prison wow max max 20 so i mean what the shit that's not too shabby if you're this guy justice uh no uh and glenn says go fuck yourself yeah uh this just trial is going the same as the last one and i got off last time so i mean you could keep doing this all day but i ain't gonna fucking admit to shit yeah so uh he doesn't take it and uh the in the closing the prosecutor says the defendant lost control over julie spencer he killed her because if he couldn't have her nobody would which, which makes sense here. Verdict this time. Yeah.

Jerry deliberates. Again, it's a couple of days. Yeah. It goes on this time. Guilty. Yeah. He is guilty this time. Okay.

So there's that. Oh, what a. Found guilty of first degree murder. What a system we have. It's fucking weird. Yeah. Finally found guilty. And that's where the story really begins.

Yeah. When he's found guilty. Because that's when it gets weird. Oh, boy here comes your curveballs yeah when they're like everywhere all right now while he's awaiting sentencing he gets married so who he first of all him and al okay him and al you're getting married him and uh the guy from across the street the 74 year old he marries a 26 year old-old named Tracy Beth Melton. Tracy Melton. Does that name sound familiar?

Yeah. What the fuck? That's his next-door neighbor. Yeah. Okay. Now, while in the time between conviction of first-degree murder and sentencing, he marries this woman and impregnates her. Wow.

First of all- That only takes a couple hours. He's guilty of first-degree murder. That's a good point. Why did he leave the house? I think it's the love a couple hours. He's guilty of first degree murder. They're not. Why did he leave? I think it's the love after lockup. She isn't a bad guy. The love after lockup show,

which we're going to talk about on Patreon this week, the Patreon episode. There's this woman and she is, she is, wants a bank robber, right? She's with a bank robber. And she said she went to visit him.

And she said, the talking head of her, she goes, he wants a baby so bad. He said, I went in there the one time. And she's laughing the whole time. This is an exact impersonation. She's giggling. He goes, and he just slipped me under the table of just a bag with sperm in it. He must have put his stuff in there.

And he told me, you go in the bathroom and put that up in you and get you pregnant. God, that's gross. And she said, I just went in the bathroom and threw it away. Because they all must have been dead by then, right? Yeah. Yeah, probably. He handed her a sack of jigs. Here you go.

Hey, sweetheart, here you go. That's disgusting. And you know it's prison. You know it wasn't Ziploc. No. You know it had no zipper like she has to go jam her fingers in it and then just like paint the wall yeah she's got to eat it like you eat hummus but with no pita use her finger as a pita either that or his jizz

hummus nibble the corner for his hum jizz nibble the corner and kind of well yeah because you know you know it's a sandwich bag so they tied it up like it was a dime bag of weed in there you're sure it's just in the corner yeah so yeah you could cut this tip off and do it like you're icing a cake i'm sure i guess maybe stick it up and squeeze it paint your service i'm not there you go oh boy oh boy that's gross the ingenuity of prison a sack of jizz is it really ingenuity let's just say if he gave her like somehow a turkey baster also that would have been some ingenuity i made this in my cell squirted and here's the here's an eye dropper from a from a yeah a baby baby tylenol bottle he just said put this in you. There you go.

Thanks. And not only that, he had to sneak that in there because they searched these guys. Yeah. So imagine being a guard finding a bag of jizz on someone. You just go on and keep that. You go, ha! Is that contraband, technically? I don't know.

It's yours. It's not like you stole it. Or is there a statute that says you can't be in possession of jizz on the outside of your body? My balls have a lot of it. That's what I mean. Only on the outside? Right. I'm not sure.

She got a sack of prison jizz. Good Lord. That jizz was made in a cell with another man like four feet from him when he did it. Sitting there. Sitting there. She got over there. I'll have it in a minute. It's got roach droppings in it probably. It's fucking pubes oh boy oh boy stick this in yourself so he

did this no actually that would have been that's what i first thought but then i did a little extra digging and i found out he was out on bail what he got bailed after being convicted of first degree murder how the fuck does that happen don't worry you're fucking up bud we had this before because remember there was a case uh with the police officer who ended up remember that the police chief guy who did that and he was out on bail for that and then there was a statute passed that said no more bail for those fucking people and that's what ended up happening there but he's out on bail while he is he marries his next door neighbor and knocks her up unbelievable they have a son named michael after that so uh but he was put back in jail by the time that baby was born no no the baby comes out and then they do sentencing this is all what he's out for a year

oh let's talk about oh my god he's very busy while he's out too jimmy very busy well think about it yeah the second trial was 92 he's out for yeah like a year basically between the sentencing so uh while he's on sentencing like i said he marries this woman he has a baby now jesus christ oh my god so uh oh boy he uh what he really wants to do though though, he likes getting married. He wants to have a baby. But what he really wants to do is kill Al Smith. That's what he really wants to do. He's like, I need to fucking kill Al Smith. Why? Hard. For witnessing against him.

How dare he? But you're going away for a... Doesn't matter. Revenge, Jimmy. Vengeance. He doesn't even know how long yet. That's what I'm saying. He doesn't even know yet.

He hasn't even been sentenced yet. Wow. So, I guess, while he's in jail, McDonald, he meets somebody in Gander Hill Prison and mentioned how he wanted somebody to disappear to this person. Now, apparently, he involves his wife, Tracy, his new wife. This is why it ties into Love After Lockup, because if you get involved with people who are involved in crazy criminal shit, this is what happens. This is why we laugh at the prisoner dating game, and we're going to talk about Love After

Lockup for a fucking hour, because it's crazy to do, because this is why. There's also a psychotic Tracy on that show. There is a psychotic Tracy. That's all I can picture in my mind too is her god damn it sucking dick for crack on her honeymoon night jesus christ that's what that on her wedding night yeah she was sucking stranger dick i gotta leave we'll talk about all that on the patreon episode but uh yeah uh now she he was also telling her that but she says that she was only under the impression under the impression that she was supposed to try to hire somebody to beat Al Smith up, not to kill him. She's like, I didn't know we were going to kill the fucking guy.

Now, an inmate suggested that Glenn contact a man named Garrett Markward. Right. Okay. So he says. What's Garrett's badge number? Well, no, no. Garrett's a real hard dude so this middleman says yo you should talk to garrett mark ward and then he goes cool so you're going to talk

to garrett awesome and then he goes and calls the fbi and goes i just told this guy to talk to garrett mark ward to set up a murder so glenn mcdonald is going to go to garrett mark ward and try to set up a murder of al smith cool all right thanks clicks i mean fucking someone is going to be yeah an informant here so the fbi contact the state police and uh in for they inform them that you know hey you got a prisoner that's trying to you know arrange a murder of one of your state witnesses you might want to look into that so uh the police tap tracy's phone his wife his new wife they tap tap tracy's phone and they tape her conversations with mcdonald they tape there uh after first what he did was uh then the cops first arranged for al

smith is put under police protection because there's a plot against his life they inform him of the plot and they put him under police protection here. Then in March of that year, Tracy meets with a guy who she was told was Mark Ward. Yeah. You know, the actual guy, Garrett Mark Ward. This guy's got a badge number. Yeah. She's told, meet with Mark Ward, give him money and a description of Smith and a map to his house.

Really rocket. If you could sign the map at the bottom like an artist, that would be terrific. Could you show us where the house is like pointed out? Yeah, dude. Nice. So the man she met with was not Mark Ward. It was just an undercover police officer there. So then they arranged the same

thing for Mark Ward. They were like, let's see if he's dumb enough to do it. So wow, they have him meet with an undercover policewoman who he thinks is Julie Spencer. He says, oh, cool. Takes the money and they fucking arrest him. Unbelievable. They arrest the whole plot here. This is fucking amazing.

I hope the guy in prison got out for this. Yeah. You know, whatever. He got something. As long as he didn't segment people. Or diddle right i'm fine with him because this is fucking hilarious and worth it so they talk to uh uh they finally talk to uh they arrest tracy they arrest mark ward and then they go to glenn and they go hey uh your wife is going to be convicted of attempted murder because of what you did stupid so at that point glenn gives a two-hour taped confession to the death of julie spencer uh because they said tell you what here's what we'd like you to do you tell us what the

fuck happened for real and we will not say we won't put your wife up for attempted murder we'll give we'll go easy on your wife you're're fucked either way. You just got convicted of first degree. So do that. And also, he has to confess to setting up the hit on Smith. So that's what he ends up doing to keep his wife from being charged with attempted murder. See what love will do. Yeah. Something, right?

But I mean, he got first degree. He didn't even know how long he was going. But they were like, we will let her go if you tell us everything that happened but think about how advantageous this is to him he has to look about hedging his bets he's going to prison oh he knows he's convicted of first degree murder and then this happened too he's definitely going to prison what would be more useful to him yeah to have his wife in jail or to have his wife on the outside where she can send him money and do things for him that's the thing. Because all these women, when you watch Love After Lockup, all these women and men,

they're doing shit for these prisoners. So many errands. Constantly. Constantly doing shit, talking to their lawyers, paying for things, sending them money. They're sitting in a room with bars. Prisoners are sure goddamn busy. They are very busy. They have a lot of time to talk to people.

That's all they have time to do, write letters and emails and all that shit so they yeah they they end up uh saying that they'll do that trade so for him it's an advantage to have his wife on the outside clearly clearly he can make her do anything she's malleable i think at this point uh other people uh but funny thing is publicly his father glenn mcdonald father, comes out publicly and says he still believes that his son made up this confession to spare his wife. I don't believe a word of it, he says. What a sweetheart. However, they have a videotaped confession of him there. And the cops said that Tracy refused to watch the confession.

She wouldn't do it. Glenn's father. I don't want to picture him in another room with another woman. With another woman interrogating him. Bitch. I know what's going on here. So, yeah, Tracy sits there awaiting everything. This is fucking hilarious, man, I'm telling you.

The way it worked, too, is she delivered. They agreed to $5,000 for the hit. They agreed to $5,000 for the hit. And she delivered the first $2,500 as partial payment to the police officer to fake Mark Ward here. And he was arrested for that. He was held, by the way, Mark Ward was held on $1.04 million bail. Didn't even kill anybody. Didn't even kill anybody.

He really wanted to, but he didn't. Maybe he just wanted to steal their money. Who knows? Tracy McDonald also, during this whole thing, she also implicated her mother-in-law because she told the undercover officer that Shirley McDonald, Glenn's mother, had, quote, the rest of the hit money. Wow. So I'll get it from her. She denied any knowledge of any knowledge of anything i don't know

what you're talking about uh they also stated that glenn told told uh told tracy to quote take some protection when she met the person so this is all they have that on recording and when they arrested her she was carrying a knife in her purse as well that's the protection that's her protection a knife i don't think she had a gun or access to it tracy was being held at the women's correctional institution for on a one million dollar bail and she gave a full statement to police and her lawyer said quote they led her to believe if she cooperated substantial consideration could be afforded her it's hilarious tracy to our knowledge has never murdered a soul she's going to meet with somebody that apparently does that as their job yeah and she's bringing a fucking knife i'll get him we'll protect yeah there's no protect either you trust this guy or he's gonna kill you one of the two

there's really you're not gonna protect yourself probably against him he might be dead too trace good fucking lord so yeah Apparently, they also searched. So, once she said that, once they heard the thing about Shirley, Glenn's mother, being involved, they ran over to her house and fucking raided her house. And she said they arrived at her house about 1.30 a.m. and searched it. She said, quote, they even searched my purse. I only had $125. Was that enough to hire a hitman?

It's her excuse. I didn't have the cash to hire a hitman it's her excuse i didn't have the cash to hire a hitman i can barely fill my freezer with groceries what you're talking about she said tracy never discussed the plot with her and she never even heard of mark ward she said the last time she saw tracy was like days before that and she said tracy quote seemed disturbed and that she she said tracy asked to borrow some money but that shirley told her that she had no money to lend and then she said that's it tracy left end of story and uh she said she spoke with glenn on the phone and said that he was astounded to hear about the incident that's the word he used astounded he couldn't believe it tracy had been living with the mcdonald's until

the end of the trial and uh then moved her grandfather's house, which was next door, where she lived to begin with. And Shirley said, we haven't seen much of her after that, which, yeah, she's up for fucking, you know, murder problems. So, yeah, so the state, he still hasn't been sentenced

for his first murder, by the way, McDonald here. So the state charges him with criminal solicitation in the first degree conspiracy in the first degree and attempted murder uh for the plot to kill al yeah uh because you can't kill a state's witness that's they take that shit real personal like hey we were going to use him against you you can't fucking bring that on us so uh he ends up entering a plea agreement on those charges and in that

agreement he waives his right to appeal his murder conviction on this uh now sentencing comes around and this is good shit yeah uh craig spencer julie's brother gets to talk and he fucking he's got some i like this guy hates him oh he's got some vitriol to spew in public at this guy i love it he really liked her new boyfriend oh yeah he called him the monster and then he said quote you've put a lot of people through hell and for what to protect yourself you're nothing less than a habitual liar and a coward he said you glenn edward mcdonald took something very precious from us something no one should have been permitted to take uh mcdonald sat there calmly and listened and everything uh he said you're a cruel callous calculated murderer but most of all you're a thief a thief of life and a thief of love okay so that's that's what he that's that was he said he was

pissed off and gave i would say uh just valid that what he said is what people, anybody would want to say in his position. So then they let McDonald address the court, Glenn, before his sentencing, as you're allowed to do. Rather than be contrite and be sorry, he decides to address the family of the Spencers and tell them to chill out. Oh, yeah. He says, quote, don't let hate destroy your families or yourselves. I've buried all my demons in hate. I don't hate you anymore. I can't make up for anything else that's done.

Then he suggested that Craig should go to counseling for his pain to get over it. That's what he said. At this point, the judge interrupted him. Really? Dude. Don't tell him how to how to grieve okay you are making a statement for your life you're allowed to do judges do not interrupt this shit they let you say the dumbest shit ever and then they get to sentence you this judge apparently they said his eyes got real narrow and he looked like he was like fucking pissed like you could

see white knuckles yeah and he just said enough and then he said his piece said you're fucking done not listening to you then he said quote there are many victims in this case not only julie spencer whose life you took so callously and whose body you discarded so cheaply but her mother and her brother and the spencer family have died a little by as well he says by my sentence it shall be you will be symbolically you will symbolically disappear into the cold stark confines of a penal institution where you ultimately will die you sir may fuck off life in prison without the possibility of parole eat dicks senoror. Inevitably? What did he say? He said, where ultimately you will die. That had to have felt so fucking good to do.

Yeah. Because if someone's being an asshole like that, you want to jump in and do something, and there's rarely anything you can do. Yeah. This is the fucking, this is the case where you can not only jump in, say something, what you want, you can decide how long you'd like him to sit in a little shitty box forever. How great is that? I want to watch you disappear.

And then, you know what? I don't even want to hear about it, but I want you to die in there. I want you to die in there. That's what a piece of shit you are. I would love to hear. I can't wait to hear when you die. That's going to be great. But I mean, how good must that feel?

I want to hear that you died, and then I want it to be like five, mean how good must that feel that you died and then i want it to be like five six years later where somebody goes remember that one dude oh yeah he totally died does he die oh shit six years ago it's great oh really that is fuck all right well dude just to be able to have the power to to take an asshole and go put him away and never let him out he's a dick put him away put him away fuck him till he dies till he's not when he's dead you can take him out till then i want him in the box in there no no we're not gonna do it we're just gonna let time do it he'll get raped and stuff it'll be great just put him in there it's fine i want him to eat horrible food and get horrible medication till he dies

so he does and that's what he gets you You know, when your teeth hurt, we're not even going to bother drilling it. We're just going to yank that bad boy out. Sorry, all gone. One at a time. When each one rots, we'll yank it. So just imagine, though, the fucking satisfaction that had to feel like just to go. I can't. You're stop talking.

You know what? I guess what I get to do. I don't like what you're saying, and I'm going to put you in jail forever for it. I'm so done hearing your words. I'm going to put you away till you die. Till you die. How's that sound? Made sure to tell him that, or ultimately, you will die.

That's a you, sir, may fuck off moment right there. So March 1994, we get Tracy Beth Melton, who is now Tracy Beth Melton McDonald. Oh, she's sticking around. Oh, she's sticking around here. Wow. I love this newspaper article. I love the verbiage here. Tracy Beth Melton McDonald involved in a bizarre plot to hire an assassin to kill a man who testified that her husband was a murderer.

Yeah. That's a huge intro to somebody. That's the first thing before Kama did this. That's who she is. That's a lot. Fuck, man. Jesus Christ. Not accountant at a P&E firm. Involved in a bizarre plot to hire an assassin

to kill a man who testified that her husband was a murderer. Kama pleaded guilty. No, he pleaded no contest to charges that could send her to prison for up to two years. She pleaded no contest to charges that could send her to prison for up to two years uh she pleaded no contest to criminal solicitation to commit murder and conspiracy to commit murder and in return the state agreed to ask for no more than two years in prison when she's sentenced and uh they also had charges of attempted murder and possessing a deadly weapon during a felony.

The knife that she had. And those were dropped because those were extra. You're just tacking them on there. Now, the deputy attorney general, he said he thought the plea offer was just. He said, quote, she was just a conduit, a go-between. She was doing his bidding as far as I'm concerned. The word conduit. Conduit.

Yeah, it sounds pretty gross sounds like you can make jizz electrocute you right it's just a way to get the jizz in there nasty so uh her attorney said that she was manipulated by glenn mcdonald into being the go-between she didn't even want to do it uh you know it was fucking ridiculous here uh so uh we'll get to that now we'll get to her sentence in a second. But there's a guy here named Dave Santo Bianco. For this guy, it's fucking hilarious. He's the guy.

He works for the probation office, the state probation and parole office. And he was assigned to be Glenn McDonald's officer when he was released on home confinement when he was out. He had an ankle monitor on and this guy put the ankle monitor on him and he said this was through both trials and uh you know all through all this shit now when jesus christ when mcdonald was convicted in february he took off the ankle monitor and put that same ankle monitor on his wife, on Tracy, because she was then being monitored. So he literally took that off and put the same one on there, which I thought is fucking hilarious.

He didn't even need to change the halo, the invisible fence for it. Well, next door, to expand it. He said, quote, it's the same anklet. I thought it was kind of romantic, which is fucking great. You got to love this guy. I thought it was kind of romantic which is fucking great you gotta love this guy i thought it was kind of romantic it's fucking amazing he said that uh uh he went to the lock up went to the lock up in the basement of of here and cut the anklet off tracy again and he tossed it he said he had it there and he said quote it was uh it was a three-year criminal justice

payton place is what he called it i don't know what that means because i never watched payton place but it seems like it's a some sort of circus like disaster something no it was a tv show in the 70s payton place i don't know i think it's some bullshit uh so yeah this is super fucking weird and lots of wrangling and i have to show you this picture of mcdonald a different picture of him because today no no no no this is around that say he looks exactly like if you look up dan akroyd yeah on snl in the 70s being the toy scumbag it's like yeah it's a bag of glass two kids they like to play with the glass you know it's a bag of glass yeah hey it's a you know it's a it's a it's a sack of hypodermics the kids they're pointy they chase each other right i'm gonna stick you he looks exactly like him in that

picture the guy that murdered people yeah at least one at least one and tried to murder another one here now uh tracy mcdonald's attorney said he was hoping that tracy could just be sentenced to like a home confinement sort of thing maybe something like that uh he said he she was just another of gl McDonald's victims. And the whole thing is sad. And Tracy should be let off. But the judge said that she already, quote, has already received the break of a lifetime when the attempted murder charges were reduced to criminal solicitation and conspiracy. You, ma'am, may fuck off.

She's sentenced to spend the next 18 months in a women's correctional facility. That the deal of a lifetime 18 months man that's not bad at all wow and i mean 18 months she'll probably get out and nine nine and yeah 10 11 now mark ward yeah because he was actually trying to kill somebody he is uh he's looking at five uh five years in prison for the conspiracy and he's already serving uh more than 10 years for fraud and drug charges that he was out for when he was yeah so he was trying to make some lawyer money while he was out and instead he by killing somebody killing someone i'll kill this guy real quick and make myself five grand imagine that was your fucking motive like thought like i'm a little short this month i guess i can kill a couple of people that seems pretty easy jesus um yeah not bad so in

2003 uh mcdonald decides that he wants to appeal his conviction for the julie murder okay he has some appeals this is an appeal usually appeals are you know this is a 10 year later appeal it's very weird and strange here uh they said that he says that the murder conviction should be reversed because the trial judge on several occasions failed to declare him to declare a mistrial and also made erroneous evidentiary rulings. We asked for it and he said no. He said no. So what an asshole. Clearly, this is bullshit. He argues the trial court erred by precluding the detective's testimony by a notation in the investigation report concerning the amount of time the victim's body could have been on the beach.

Apparently, the errors regarding the admissibility of evidence and order of proof were reviewed for abuse of discretion. This is hard to explain. I'll read a little more here. During the cross-examination, defense counsel attempted to question Detective Allstat regarding a notation in the investigation report concerning the victim's time of death. The prosecution objected. During a sidebar discussion,

the defense counsel learned that the notation actually represented the thoughts of Dr. Hemeli, the state's medical examiner, not the detective. So there should be a mistrial for that. Wait, who gives a shit? Exactly. That's what I mean.

Who cares whose notes it is? If you have 10 years in prison, you could go over trial transcripts with a fine tooth comb and look for that. Anything. And go, that's a fucking mistrial. And they're like, no, it was fine. Defense counsel terminated the cross-examination of Detective Allstat and thereafter got a subpoena for the doctor. So it was just like, oh, that's not information you know.

That's information the doctor knows. Never mind. We'll get him in here. We've got to get that guy. That's it. And then for some reason, the defense counsel didn't call the Dr. Hemeli during its portion of the trial. And Glenn's trying to say that that was ineffective assistance of counsel, but the court says that the failure to call the doctor was indisputably the type of tactical decision trial counsel

could make and about which McDonald may not complain about on appeal. It's a fucking strategy thing. We find that constantly where trial strategies are taken as ineffective assistance of counsel and you can't do that there's certain strategies if a coach in a football game decides we're going to run the ball today i don't care what anybody says we're going to run the ball 50 times and then you fucking lose right you can't you can't say well that was ineffective coaching he was going to run the ball 50 times can't say ah no no no malcolm butler picked that one up we're gonna do the same play but we're gonna do the run like everybody wanted us to do how it works that one didn't work it just

doesn't work here so uh it's fucking silly man so uh now they he also had separate things with the guilty plea for the conspiracy charges. In March 1996, he had two new lawyers, and they filed a motion on behalf of him with the court to withdraw his guilty pleas for this. The motion was later refiled as a motion for post-conviction relief there so they would actually get it. Because certain appeals that you're allowed to do at certain times and you can only do it's weird it has to be substantial i'm not going to get into it okay thank you jimmy was looking at me like oh no my head's spinning different things basically so he uh files a motion in 2004 the defense does for post-conviction relief seeking to overturn his murder conviction as well so now he's trying to overturn his murder conviction and fucking

squash the pleas he wants to be out uh so his motion to withdraw his guilty plea was denied by the court in 2000 after an evidentiary evidentiary hearing in an oral argument and he appealed that decision to the delaware supreme court the supreme court reversed that court holding that he had not intelligently and voluntarily entered guilty pleas in 1993 also directed him to be resentenced for the uh spencer murder okay so he got a he got a sentence thrown out life without parole tossed really tossed. Really? Got it tossed. They said that, yeah, they said that he had not intelligently and voluntarily entered guilty pleas and also said, they basically said, you're right about your guilty pleas and on top of that, they fucked up your other trial too.

Resentencing. Oh my God. Just resentencing though. Resentencing. Yeah, but he can get out of prison at this point. Sentencing here. He is sentenced to you, sir. May fuck off again.

Life in prison without the possibility of parole. All that for shit. Eat dicks. And that's where you will die. And no other sentence reduction of any manner, it says. So you can suck a dick. Unbelievable. So 2013 now. This is a 23 year ordeal fucking guy 2013 he seeks

a commutation of his sentence uh he goes to the court here uh the state board of pardons is to consider his commutation request at a meeting he's asking for this he's he's a changed man yeah and uh you know he didn't get good counsel i've done everything else he's done 23 years and they said well you probably got another 40 left asshole have fun fuck off enjoy prison forever bye go in there and die bye fuck you yeah 23 years like yeah you probably only got another 40 left wow you're doing great doing great pal hang in there your mustache is looking fabulous yeah has anyone ever guys have we all complimented his mustache told him he's really got it up to up to par here so uh yeah he is stuck in there uh i don't know what the hell tracy's up to

uh i would assume she's out oh she's definitely out. She's been out since the mid-90s. Probably been in jail once or twice. I mean, who knows? I feel like there's a trailer park somewhere with a woman who lives at one of the end trailers where they say she just sits outside and smokes. I don't know. It's weird.

She has a box of wine and she smokes. I've never seen her. She just wears a house dress. I've seen her drink Kahlua right out the bottom. Kahlua's not a... Kahlua. You add that to things, right she just wears a house dress. I've seen her drink Kahlua right out the bottom. Kahlua's not a. Kahlua. You add that to things, right? That's a sprinkle in.

She was drinking Tom Collins mix. That's a weird thing, right? Is that strange? There isn't even alcohol in it. I don't know what the fuck she was drinking. She drinks Bloody Mary's just the mix. Just the mix. She likes to put olives in it.

Then she drinks the vodka separately. Does shots of vodka. And then chases it with tomato juice that's that so she's there i mean mark work i'm sure he's been in and out of prison the whole time that guy's if he's the guy to go to to hire to kill somebody people know that about you i can't imagine his life has just gotten you know smooth and easy after that. Hey, smooth sailing from here, everybody. I have that little rough patch where everybody in town came to me for murder. No problem.

Now I've got it. No fucking problem. Jesus fucking Christ almighty. That is fun. What a crazy story. That is Port Penn, Delaware. That's one of those stories that I don't know how you could even tell it without comedy because it's so ridiculous. It absurd it's absurd like i feel if you heard that on date

life i saw that on dateline i'd be like ah now they're just making shit up yeah thinking we'll believe it because you're saying with a straight face that can't be true if the guy was laughing going holy shit check this out what happens next i believe it and she's crazy knife to talk to a guy she knows murders this this would be a great movie this fucking thing by the way a ben stiller one that's what i mean not a serious film this is outside of the because let's face it obviously julie was being lost in all this julie spencer yeah died in this and that's terrible and fucking tragic a 22 year old girl lost her life the waste horrible obviously everything else

that happens around it this is what i mean why we say we do true crime and comedy together because you it would be stupid to tell this story in any other way everything around it is fucking insane it's insane if bill curtis did this with a straight face you'd think he was full of shit it's not it's not real bill no you'd be like bill come on bill stop trying to be charlie sheen yes what are you talking about bill carter's smoking crack i think he's hanging out at charlie sheen's house smoking crack he's gotta be what's going on here it's fucking not like yeah you this is a story that yeah i don't know how you would even tell this without comedy i feel bad for these serious podcasters who have to do this. It's horrible.

And yeah. By the way, if you are a podcaster and you're doing a true crime show and you're not a comedian, don't try to be funny. No. Just don't. Just stop it. It's fucking... It's unsettling.

Yeah. Stop. It's unsettling. It's not okay. No. You're not good at it. No. You know?

Do you know how few people are funny in this world? It's tough to do. There are so few people that are actually funny like we know a lot of comedians most of them aren't funny right even ones that make a living being funny aren't funny right you are not going to be funny i always tell people people have to try to make like circuit not you guys you guys are wonderful but people try to make like sarcastic comments on social media and it's like why do you okay you have something in your life on social media and it's like, why do you... You have something in your life that you do and it's not being funny.

So why are you trying to fucking come over here and do this? If you were talking to somebody who was hitting a baseball, you wouldn't be like, give me that bat for a second.

No, because you would look like an idiot with your terrible swing. That's how bad you look at comedy. Do you understand? That's how unfunny you are. Anything you think,

it's probably the first thought somebody actually funny had and then they rejected that thought and went on to something better. Somebody that's not funny would say this. This is what someone who's not funny would say. Exactly. So whenever you're trying to be funny,

just think, I'm not funny. And then you'll just be yourself and that's better. It's much easier. It's not a bad thing to not be funny. And you know, it's not a bad thing just to be you just be you you can be you know serious or you

can be whatever you are that's fine be yourself you don't have to be funny not everybody has to be funny people are trying to be funny now i guess to keep themselves from losing their minds crazy because let's face it collectively we've been ignoring the whole craziness that's going on right now but collectively as a nation we've lost our fucking mind stop already sports yeah think about this sports and television like new shows have stopped for two weeks and we made

a fucking lunatic tiger handling gubernatorial loser the biggest celebrity in America that's what happened in two weeks that's how we don't know how to fucking be two weeks were like I had no one's hit a ball you guide me joe exotic please tell me where to be tell me more in your leopard shirt how many times since that documentary has come out have you seen people on social media say something ridiculous and whatever asinine political statement they

make or whatever with the end of it being, change my mind. How many fucking people have done that? Literally. Joe Exotic is a role model. Right. He's not a hero, you fucking idiots. Everyone in that show is a fucking moron. Every one of them.

There is no person to root for. No hero. No. He is probably the least offensive, as we talked about on our on our patreon episode of the rest of those people yeah but he's still a terrible man he's not a national hero no it's not that's we need sports back is what i'm saying badly we need sports and we need television back because otherwise who knows who's going to be the next fucking leader of the other point is that's how fucking serious this is the nba and the nfl and ncaa and regular tv generates so much fucking money there's billions we're pissing it away billions for them to stay at home how much you make fucking 70 65 grand a

year shut the fuck up and sit down everybody sit down it's not we're there with you that's the thing we're doing it too you know how we make money as comedians we go on the road we go on the road we do shows you know we get our bills fucking shows that's how we pay our bills that's sit down yeah we get it we get it we're all there with you but when urban meyer is sitting on his fucking couch i guarantee you that doesn't make him money. No. He's probably stealing money from Tim Tebow still. But you being outside is making this worse. Sit the fuck down. And okay, I'm going to say this,

and this might be controversial. Oh, boy. Okay. She's like, oh, boy, what's he going to say now? Okay, you church folks out there, you know, I'm not a religious person, but hey, you want to be religious? Knock yourself out. You want to to be religious? Knock yourself out.

You want to go to church? Knock yourself out. Stop going to fucking church right now. When this is over, Jesus will be there. Stop going to church. Jesus will understand. He's been here for 3,000 years. He's aware of what's fucking happening here.

2,000. It's funny that all the, not all of them, because there's a lot of responsible people out there, but some of these nut cases inida who got arrested for having mega church functions it's like i won't close my doors because you're so much of a rebel or because that's how you make your fucking money you scumbag fuck do you think we don't want to do it too we'd love to yeah come on in fuck that yeah come on yeah but then we're all you're all gonna get sick and we'd feel terrible about that plus we're not fucking allowed to. Right. So that's the other thing. So why are you? Yeah.

At this point, if you want to fill the pews, great. We'll lock the doors from the outside. Wonderful. Stay in there. Fucking breed it and give it to each other. Keep it like a cruise ship. Fuck yeah. There you go.

Have your fucking, your Sunday church on a carnival cruise line. If you won't do that, then shut the fuck up. That's our say in this shit. Seriously. Shut the fuck up. Stay home. I'm tired of this shit. Knock it the fuck off.

You don't have anywhere to be. And all the people are like, well, what happens then next time when this happens? Then the government, shut the fuck up. Shut up. We'll cross that when we get to it. If it's as bad as a global pandemic. Come to your fucking houses. If it's as bad as a global pandemic, then we'll fucking let him do it. If not, then we'll go to no.

So anyway, that's how that works. Fuck. If you enjoyed the show, I know what you can do. You can tell us all about it. Head over to Apple Podcasts, the purple icon and give us five stars. It helps so much. And I have no fucking idea why just helps on the business and helps drive you up the charts people notice the show and then they listen to it

that's how it works also you can go uh over to shut up and give me murder.com for everything crime and sports which you should be listening to and small town murder related get all of your merchandise all of your stuff there plenty of cool stuff to check out tickets to live shows uh you can still buy them um we're we're we're hoping we'll sell them we're we're hoping from what we've told like uh from like late july on is when we're going to start probably the word if all goes according to plan i'm going to start having the shows and there's shows that we've missed that are being rescheduled and we'll get those to you trust me it's crazy over here trying to figure out where we're going to be and when but here's the other thing we can sell you all the tickets we want uh we don't get that money till about two weeks after we do this i was gonna say yeah about two weeks after we do the show so

we don't have your money by the way selling you tickets is doing us zero favor we have to do the show to make them yeah but buy those tickets later and then we'll be there, and you can sell the tickets there. Follow us on social media, or we can make money for the tickets then. Follow us on social media. We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, and we are at Small Town Murder on Instagram there. I hope you enjoyed the Stevie watch-along that we did. That was fun. We're going to do that a few more times

here and there. We're going to throw it together, but try to give you guys something, because a lot of you guys are home. You're looking for stuff to watch, and I don't know. We'll hang out with you one of these nights and do it for free, just to say thank you. We don't make any money on it. We're just hanging out with you. We've got free time, too. We just want to say thank you. So we're like, hey, maybe

they want to watch some shit with us. We'll schedule some time to be together to hang out with you that sounds pleasant jimmy that's very nice so yeah do that find out all that stuff on social media if you want to be a producer of the show we're going to talk about in just a moment you can do that very easily by going to patreon.com slash crime and sports or head over to paypal and use our email address crime and sports at gmail.com and you can make a one-time donation and like i said thank you guys for everything you've done we are just doubling down our efforts to hustle for our patreon dollar man we want to thank you guys for for i understand

people cut back on household expenses and shit like that and a lot of people have made us like essential household spending and crazy we can't thank you enough for that. We are the tomatoes. We are the tomatoes. So thank you for making us your toilet paper. We appreciate it. James and Jimmy, human toilet paper. Thank you. If there's anything you take away from this, that's what you need to be.

There it is. Human toilet paper. So thank you for everything you've done. We're going to have another bonus episode, like we said, this week for the $5 Patreon people and above. That will be uh all about love after lockup this crazy goddamn reality show about basically if people took the prisoner dating game seriously you have the show you have this show we're going to talk about that

we'll have cases again next week and then we put released as a mini crime and sports there and if you give to either crime and sports or small town murder it's all under the same umbrella so you're gonna have access to all the bonus material for both shows so uh do that and thank you guys so much for everyone who has done that and uh we love doing the bonus shows but i need to hear who did this jimmy oh they're good who are the people there's so many are there any of them ah will you tell me about them oh my god jimmy tell me about those people hit me with it right now this week's executive producers are leanne dice uh tonya volanek chrissy ann costaldi checking back in uh paul ramming clay thorson and his wife who is an rn and all of the front line thank you everyone you guys are fucking heroes thank you su susanna platt jim healy renee burn joanne ahern uh rice probin ryan sergeant

uh jerry uh oliver yeah megan newell uh what is that eileen hodnett yep no thomas ludwig andrea papa george jordan bennett john buck uh john sordo christine valdez, Carl Bittner, and then there's one more. I moved it right here. Kaki Surrett. Thank you guys so much for everything that you do for us. We're really just blown away by it. Other producers this week, strap in. This shit's going to be long. Ashley Papano,

Akusayix, I think. Gota DeLavidia? No. Rosie Goldstein, Dave Despacoli, DePascal, Molly Broussard, and Donce. Donce. Damn it. Jenna Stoner.

This is crazy. Ian Abrams, Will Hart, Taylor Cody, Jim Healy, Joanne with no last name, Megan Hicks, Olivia Tatum. Nope. Allison Reed, Kyle Hendershot, Susan Borowski, Corey with no last name, Michelle Holmes, Margo Trout, Lester Herbert, Jessica Rothwell, Justin Green, Simon, Pam Putnam, Sean Wells, Patricia Alberts, Ryan Harold, Justin Stragliotti, Catherine Babcock, or Blaylock? Babcock? Bab-bad cop? Bad cop?

I don't know. Tabor DeRoyne, Shireen Cassol, Chris Ferrari, Ashley Angeline, Douglas Parton, Drew Waller, Michelle Gonzalez-Masias, Wendy and Noel Lowe, April Curley, Patricia Young, Stephanie with no last name, Ted Arnold, Jesse Howe, Joe Merkle, Susie Goodman, Jenny Koski, Taylor with no last name, Hannah Johnson, John Stinn, Brian Heller, Dana Holly, Sydney Gillespie, Kristen M., Christine M., Mark Case, Ashley Cuthbertson, Renee, no, that's Williams. What is that? Renee Bird, Williams Reef. Oh, that's what that is. It's Williams Reef's Aquarium.

Ah, okay. That's what it is. Mal, Mal Satorian, Yaz Kun, no, Yaz Hun, Lynn. that's what that is it's williams reefs aquarium that's what it is uh mal mal citorian yazcoon no yazhoon lynn i'm not fucking cultured quincy mo elisa elisa cane dylan lavallee malia martinez erica taylor stephanie with no last name cory owens nicole munier, Ben Streeter, Ashley Curry, Chris McNoodle, McNuckle, Mike Mangiano, Kayla Lyons, Sierra Scott, Kyle Rudd, Andrea N., Tim Reffner, Angela Magana, Chris it. Chris Caleriti, no. Calier? Calart. Collart.

Sorry. Amelia Delfos, Anthony and Luciano Renaro. Thank you guys so much. Jennifer Ware, Heather Monday, Jason Swartz, Christian Lopez, and we're just getting started. You ready? Jennifer Stewart, Phoebe McMahon, Mc Swartz, Christian Lopez, and we're just getting started. You ready? Jennifer Stewart, Phoebe McMahon, McHugh, sorry, Angela Dia, Rachel, no, Rachie R, Kelly Brown, Barry with no last name, Devante Burgess, Aaron Hopkins, Catherine Adams, Bailey Green, Timothy Smith, Christopher Davis, Dan with no last name,

Harvey with no last name, Isabel Silverstein, Jade with no last name, Lee Blasfeber? No. No. I'm not going to try. God damn it. I gave my best. Crystal Kefalis, Patrick Sir, Heidi Hauser, Sebastian Kocheki, Melissa Jones, Tyler Vera, Sam G., Kyle Nelson, Zaley, no, I don't know what that is, Vecherisics, I don't know what I did, Rayleigh, fuck, Emily Hudson, Scott Tucker, Katie Felix, Mike with no last name, Jake Price, Tyler Fitzgerald, Claudia Parks, Che

and Steph, Albert Lopez, Amina Zaidin, Rena Jackson, Max J, I think that's who that is, Heather Veltri-Lafour, Crystal with no last name, Hannah Patricia, Elisa Cassandra, Ediconics, oh boy, I don't know what that is. Eat-a-conics. Oh, boy. I don't know what that is. Christina Ransom. Lisa Babbitt. Emma with no last name. Kevin with no last name.

Catherine Grissett. Christina Krizmaly. Kriznalik. Derry. No. What is Darcy? Darcy Linger. Emma Jolie-Pettis.

Nick Richardson. Alexa Page Crowe. Courtney Broche. Joe Hallett. Cassie Avery Vowles, Rebecca Hessler, Tim Lloyd, Jim Lloyd, Connor Fairman, Caitlin with no last name, Valerie Fortner, Corey Brantley, Haley Hansen, Trill Bina, Dane Ford, Lisa Rooley, Jen Hill, David Lenk, I think, Herman Paird. P-A-I-R-D. P-A-I-R-D. Cassie Peterson. Magilda Chunks.

Rebecca Fords. Fonz. Nicole Meyer. I'm getting there. Liana Ratka. Megan Alexander. Amy Dawson. I said that. Melissa Bo.

What is that? Bornette. Eric Brown. Paul Mampilly. Brenda Fournier. Brendan Fournier. Shell Ashley 357. Emma with no last name.

Tracy Pesek. Becky Grandhill. Rachel Mace. Sam Gordon. Lynn Shaw. Lena Kay. Matt Meyer. Allie Rash.

Isabella Griffith. What is that? Nisa Kelly, Sarah Waddell. You got this, Jimmy. Jump in and encourage you. You're doing great, Jimmy. Rock it, rock it. Mary with no last name. Demetrius Jones, Angela Littleton. Emma with no last name. G. Trinder.

Tara Shupski. Fuck it, Bucket. Megan Corley. Uncle, no, that's Wiggle Butts, Pampered Mutt, Kiona Lowe, Kiana Lowe, I think, Catherine Howard, Courtney Couch, Christina Rotieri, Mike Strong, Clayton Whitman, no, yeah, Brangella Stang, Courtney with no last name. Karen Harris. Brooke Dover. No, that's Brooke Dover. Sorry. Carl Bittner. Sarah Spurlock. Kim Cheetleburg.

Hunter Thompson. That's his actual name, by the way. This is really awesome. Yeah. Stephanie Best. Carrie Kelly. Hard to explain. Sam with no last name.

Lori Stanek. Haley Dingle. Allison Davis. Ursula Graham. Olivia Borden. Sadia Abdi. Tracy Willis. Nicole Sargent, Jenna with no last name, Paul Gruber, Betsy Wilson, Charisma, Joe Demio, Sarah Blanche, Sean Delaney, Abraham Ingersoll, Valerie Youngkins, Kathy Collado, Steve Stevenson,

Andy Vaughn, Emma Eman Egan, Channing Rankin, David Jackson, Scott Stevenson, Gary Noker, Jay Estes, Luke Rottiere, John Strawns, Jade Robinson, Kelsey Bornstein, Kathy Rivera, Ben Seastack, Alex Aldape, AJ, Kathy Rivera, Robbie Luna, Carly Nielsen, Amanda Campbell, Peachy Dream, Matt Rowland. I said that in a question. Dev Laura, EJ Hausler. What? No. Nikki Taylor, Erica Popham, Dan Matz, April Growth, Olivia Ritter, Will Robinson, Mike Miller, Melissa with no last name, Francisco Mora, Nicola Marshall, Jessica Lewis, Margo Delaney, I said that, Candace Fitzpatrick, Jordan with no last name, Matt Rowland, Robbie Luna, Peachy Dream, Isabel Aguero, Nick with no last name, Sarah Linderman, Caitlin Weakley, and another page, Linda Duran Campbell, Taylor Jennings, Kelly Keys, Becca Mirfica, Stacy

Stanley, Holly McMahon, no, McCoyne. You guys really wanted to hear us talk about the Tiger King. Phil Bannister, Tiffany Gonzalez, Marissa with no last name, Renee with no last name, no mccoy uh you guys really wanted to hear us talk about the tiger king phil vanister tiffany gonzalez marissa with no last name renee with no last name ryan amy no ryan amy amy b uh shelly hansen tom c sean ward harrison albertson albert katherine with no last name rach nemeyer uh i think edan ejad cortez probably not sue saund Saunders, Jenny Allen, Tony Francisco, Alyssa McMillan, Samara Vorner, Renee Kellogg, Stacey Greer, Cameron Smiley, Kay Peak, Jude McConkie, Amanda Geary, Sarah Lanier, Kelly Dunn, Molly Robinson, Zach with no last name, Kyle and Antonio in Texas.

Happy birthday, by the way. It's a little late. I'm a piece of shit. I got you. Christelle or Crystal, Mark Giovanni, William Wheat, Mealy, no, Melan Petrucci, Jessica Roper, Gabriela with no last name, Brian Heading, Brendan Winkle, Joseph Hollows, Stacey Nielsen, Frank Sharon, Kayla Bingham-Miranda with no last name, Kayla Burkhart, Carol Palmer, Sophie Myers, Charlie Burrs, Haley Lindbeck, P.A. Tironi, Amy Preston, Nathan Vissen, Jeff White, Christine, no, Christy Golightly, Jack Pertain, Emily, no, Rachel Morales, what? Doug Reston, Anne King, Amanda Scott, Danielle Amory, Amanda Kruzak, Michael H., Joey, no, what is that?

Zoe Brown, Rebecca Reed, Michelle with no last name, Joshua with no last name, Pertain, no, Brittany, Brittany Moore, Naysan. Naysa Stanton. Tamara Hemsworth. Megan Traylor. No, Taylor. Sorry. Audie Griffith. Colette Davis.

Kevin with no last name. Mackenzie Asprey. Keith Durbin. Kim Welter. God damn it. Oscar Pultrineri. Taylor Bean. Krista Barnes.

DC Blues. Jennifer Justice Thompson. Mucho Macho. Julia Cunningham, Kyle Dunphy, Jen Baird, Jeff Ashton. We're getting into it. We're almost there. God damn it. Sheree Coppice, Lopas. I don't know what I did there. Kaylin McAdam, Jane Greaser, Ariel with no last name, Jared Markman, Jacob Cruz, Kat Zvard, Braden with no last name, Nathan Dayhill, Kerry Bardo, Sam Sharkey, Michael Zucilli, Paul Lino Lakes,

what did I just fuck it up again? Lino Lakes. Eloise with no last name, John Targalinkilu. No. Daria Pecciali. That's not right. Pataccio. Brian Spink. Emily Jo.

Kevin Mullally. John William Kern. Caitlin Asher. Carol Palmer. Amanda Dalton. Kaylee Bethallen. Bethalon. Probably not.

Alicia Parmenter. Katie Cock or Coach. Or Cock Coach. Sorry. Tessa Allen. Terry Big Koch. Or Koch. Or Koch. Sorry. Tessa Allen. Terry Bigum. Amber Lee. Amber Fields.

Anja Richter. Anja Richter. David Boudreau. Boudreau. Bethany Lamke. Lisa Stiff. Terry. No.

Yeah. Terry Burks. Neil Anis. Neil Anis, maybe. Hey. Jessica Hensley. Chris Nelson. Brooke Foster.

Grumpy Pender.ender patter ass what no grumpy petter ass i don't think so i jessica push kush ball uh kimber vautour ivy lopez brooke foster jessica kalick uh scott hamburger that can't be true small Small Town Cunt. That's for sure not true. Teeny Witcher. Nicole. Tina Witcher. Nicole Mores. Morer. Yeah. Mack with no last name. Laura Weimer.

Zach Dubois. Jordan Wallen. Eric Rankins. Megan Murrell. Susan Renaud. Hunter Davis. Mary Levon. Eric Ballard.

Angela Mattias. The Bartix. Heidi Hedrick. Phoebe Watkinson, yeah, Victoria Northcutt, Ash with no last name, Sean Columbus, Barb John Lay, Michelle Swasey, Michelle Socks, no, Fox, Holly Drury, Amy Ouellette, Morgan Reed Parker, Diane Davis, Elaine Jay, Lindsay Smith, Justin Blau, Stephanie with no last name, Maya Carson, Stephen Steeness, Mindy Pierce, Elisa Perrazzo, Christy Lee, We Are Almost Done, Aaron Conrad, Jana G, Bo Hibbert, Brooke Bruce, Shannon Brown, Ashley Poole, Brett Loves Retta, John Holder, Moira Smith, Katie Cook, Sarah Butler,

Brett Nidzwik, Olivia Jennell, Kanye Twitty, Nicholas Hornig, Lily with no last name, Joe Pivernick, Megan Gary, Thomas Smith, Brian Bostard, Madeline Horowitz, Gwen Van Veen, Colleen with no last name, Kelly Higby, Ashley Veo, Cindy Weber, Lynn Gross, Robin Bullock, Valerie Lavoie, Gina Excel, James Marder, Donna with no last name, Rachel Denson, Benson, God damn it, Jeff Bowman, Tara Miller, Marissa Cook, Vlad Marant, no, Kim Kelman, Laura Reese, Esther Rose, Deborah Ober, Western Falk. What the fuck? That's not true. I'm sure it's different. I'm sure I fucked it up. Julia Duncan, Peyton Meadows, Barbara Binns, Lisa Geese, Laura Murr. Welcome back, Laura. I missed you.

Can't wait to see you again. Megan Seymour, Robert Sukach, Michelle Terry Photos, Photography, Emily Bajowski, Georgiana Porter, Nicole Judd, Josh Cherry, Anthony, oh, it's Tony, Tom and Colin, Pinatelli, I think. They all listen together. Thanks, guys. It's a guy, his dad, and his son. Awesome. Melissa Silsby, Charles Jordan, Charlie Jordan, Megan M., Beth Urban, Paul Gruber, Amanda Knight, Brittany Lepowski, Susan, no, Sarah K. Chai, Danielle Pennington, Trip Ratcliffe, Katie McCord, Gregory Burr, Zach Brown, Melissa Katusak, Stephanie Huron, Bagels, Celeste Pettyjohn, Janice Hill, Taryn Porter, Billy Johnson, Joey Edwards, Sarah Harrison, Lucy Stacey, Amy Lovins, Deb Warr, Baselton Nearing, Lindsay Portray, no, Rotary, Chrissy Bumango, Boyle, Gary Howard, thanks Gary, Penny Keir, Gina Kuhn, Jennifer Krijicic, no, Nick Strickland, Dead Guru, Jason Davis, Linda Lee Friend,

Alex Browning, Ryan Pearsad, Jackie Sukup, Dylan Hopper, Natalie Breedbach, Cassandra Maskey, Rudolph Flores, Jason McMahon, Haley McGivern, Tony Francisco, Jude Kendall, Jude Passmore. No, it's Kendall Passmore. Ricky Sykora, Jeff Conover, David Deccant, Stephanie, no, Stephen, shit, Lawrence, Gracie Ella Martinez, and all of our goddamn Patreon supporters. You guys are real heroes. Thank you, everybody, you life-saving bastards.

Can you believe it? You life-saving sons of bitches. Honestly, it's a lot of people, and thank you guys you life-saving bastards can you believe it you life-saving sons of bitches honestly people it's a lot of people and thank you guys for doing this we're we know you're trying to get through this we're trying to get through this thank you for helping us get through this in a time where we basically had all of our revenue taken from us so thank you guys for making sure that uh we have food on the table because of you guys patreon so uh we're gonna keep working hard for you at that as much as we possibly can. And Jimmy, what if someone wanted to work hard for you?

How could they inform you of that decision? You can find me at WismanSucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N sucks, on Twitter and Instagram. That's where you can tell me how much you dislike me. How can they inform you of that decision? What a weird way to put that. Where can they tell you how much they enjoy you being their uh toilet paper with oh i am until you're a human toilet paper you can tell me about my toilet paper equalities over at jimmy p is funny or just copy and paste my last name from the show

description and do it that way it's much easier i want to see a bunch of tweets that say, Jimmy P is funny, has the best ripples. Yeah, double pleated, baby. Double layered. That's the comment. Soft. Soft yet firm. For iTunes. Soft, but you're not going to poke a finger through and end up with a shitty index.

That's not how this is going to work with me. The ripples make you clean. Strong, but soft. I really like your ripples. Like your ripples make you clean. Strong, but soft. I really like your ripples. Like your ripples, everybody. Oh, my goodness me. So thank you guys so much for joining us this week.

Keep coming back every week. I'm telling you guys next week, insane story again. So come back next week. Keep on doing that. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.