Small Town Murder - #166 - Starting Your Own Religion Can Be Tricky in American Fork, Utah

Episode Date: April 9, 2020

This week, in American Fork, Utah, when two brothers from a very interesting background get excommunicated from the local church, they form their own belief system. These beliefs include some VERY weird things, to say the least, including several people who God has apparently told them to murder, starting with some family members. This is only the start of the crazy, as their explanations for their actions are even more bizarre! Along the way, we find out that it is definitely possible to be too religious, that just because you heard God say it, it doesn't mean God said it, and that starting your own religion may just be too difficult to do without murder!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in American Fork, Utah, a man's twisted and self-guided religious beliefs cause murder and mayhem while sending fear through a close-knit community. back to Small Town Murder.

Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigal. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. Jimmy, right on target with the enthusiastic yay this week. Let's inject some humor into the world. Let's have fun.

Let's attempt to have a good time. This world, oh, it sucks. Yeah, we don't want to put it to a, we hate dating the show like that, but yeah. Everything's shit. We're in the middle of a world of shit, so let's try to make a nice shit salad out of it everybody and today this is this is a rulo nebraska phillips oklahoma pocket robin level bat shit crazy case today this is wild and nuts and you have if this is your first episode you've chosen wisely because it's crazy we all deserve it yes before we get into it quickly just want to thank everyone for their

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but this is just more fun. So we're going to do that mini-case next week. It's going to be a good time, so check that out and thank you for everything you've done. Also, listen to PS I Hate This Movie. It comes out on Fridays with me and my wife, Sarah Hunt, where we rip apart romantic comedies. As she says, we take a realistic look

into the unrealistic world of romantic comedies. And as you can imagine, I just yell and scream a lot and get real angry at shit. So check that out also. And wow, thank you for everything you've done so far. With that said, disclaimer time. Gotta do the disclaimer. This is a comedy podcast.

It's a comedy show. We're gonna have a good time. We are. People are going to die. They will. They will comedy show we're gonna have a good time we are people are going to die they will they will die it's a they're gonna be murdered here which is right now it's the least of everyone's concerns honestly think about it you're less scared to be murdered now than at any other time in your existence right welcome it you know you're like well at least it's another person i can talk to that's good at least at least i'm not lonely for a little while anyway you shouldn't be here this is great

yeah but uh honestly people get killed we're gonna make jokes we don't make jokes about the murder we make jokes about stuff around the murder usually when a murder is going to happen it's because people have gone off their rocker a little bit and then funny stuff happens usually around that so if that sounds good to you we're gonna have a great time that doesn't sound good to you if you think comedy and true crime should never go together you should take a walk there you go have a fun we gave it a shot thank you very much but i mean we're gonna try our best we we try our best not to make fun of the victims or the victims families why would we do that because we're assholes yeah but we're not scumbags now we're talking that's what we're talking about

so if that sounds good to you sit back wherever you are if you're home you're allowed scare the shit out of your pets right now really in your living room you can did you're in your own home damn it it's not in your office shout shut up and give me murder as the cat scurries under the couch there you go your goldfish just flopped and your dog twists his head sideways and goes huh we can do that cool i guess we're i guess we're being loud now so uh with that said let's go on a trip jimmy great let's do this uh we're coming from the east coast we're coming from delaware that's right we're like in the atlantic ocean pretty much last week uh this week we're going west somewhere with no ocean anywhere near it we're going to utah oh it's icy oh boy utah we're going to american fork utah oh boy that isn't a real name of a town apart from french

for american fork utah what the fuck i at first i'm like i wonder if they make like forks there if there's like the like the american fork company started there and it was just like a company town yeah but that's not how it happened this is in north central Utah. It's about 30 minutes outside of Salt Lake City. It's a suburb out there. It's about five and a half hours to Boise, if you want to go up that direction, and about an hour and 45 minutes, if you want to go east, to Dushane, Illinois,

or Illinois, Utah, which was our last Utah episode. And that is the one with less popular Joe Exotic. That is literally Utah's version of Joe Exotic. We did that last year, and he's pretty much the same guy on a smaller scale. He has a lion instead of tigers, and he takes it to town, to the grocery store. It's insane.

So I think it's episode 120. Listen to that one if you want to hear some crazy shit from Utah. What a bizarre thing to own. But not after this. But not until after this one, because this is even crazier. This is in Utah County. Very creative. Zip code 84003.

Area code 385 and 801. Can't hold these people with one. And it's about almost 11 square miles. It's not that average-sized town here. The motto, you can smell that Mormon cooking. You know what I mean? You can smell what the Mormons are cooking there. That's it.

It's just... It's all bland down home. It's going to be, yeah. They don't even have a motto. We have a motto. It is, everything is covered in gravy. Everything is beige. That's Utah.

Look around you. Beige. Isn't it nice? Isn't it nice? But the mountains are pretty in Utah. Look around you. Beige. Isn't it nice? Isn't it nice? But the mountains are pretty in Utah. I'll say that. Everything else is a little weird. It's all bland shit.

Yeah. That's what I picture. Just a lot of biscuits, no gravy. No gravy. Or if it is, it's the white gravy, but there's no spice in it whatsoever. It's just not even salted. No spice, no sausage. Not even salted.

It's just done. Utah, we have to say, as known as one of the more conservative places on the face of the planet you know here and like saudi arabia probably you know places like that maybe morocco you know a couple of a couple of syria possibly a couple of the you know more war-torn countries the more where the religion is really kind of has, the religion and the law really kind of go hand in hand. There's really no discerning them. But Utah, the people there who aren't insanely religious and would hate us are the coolest

people in the world. They are. Because they have to live by these people, by the crazy rules. So they're like, some voice of sanity, please talk to me. God damn it. We're outnumbered and people keep voting. One of the best crowds we had ever was in Salt Lake City. Unbelievable.

They're so fun. They're like, thank you. Our beer is only, we have to drink so much beer. It's like 3% alcohol, please. They finally got real beer and that's amazing for them. It's crazy. How long must you drink 3-2 beer to even get drunk i drank i drank an 18 pack in a weekend and i never once was drunk i think i thought i was superman i was like i think i've

done something you're supposed to just be full of liquid before you get drunk that's how they do it so history of this area it was used as a seasonal hunting and fishing ground by the ute indians there uh but originally that's the whole area but american fork itself was settled in 1850 by mormon pioneers of course it was named lake city in 1852 that's what it first was and they later on changed uh to american fork until salt lake got too big it's a little strange here yeah they're like well they have salt lakes right more lake city they took we just figured we'd make it easy for people to not have salt lake and just have it be salt lake right fucking people over here let's go sorry excuse my language

so bring them i'm sorry jesus christ i'm sorry the darned people are driving me nuts yeah so uh they the first settlers were as our arza adams and then stephen shipman chip chipman chipman chipman he sounds very very exciting this guy here uh jesus christ so there was a kind of up and down the uh the american fork river here that is where people first started to settle in the 1850s there was a lot of fighting between the Mormons who came in and the Native Americans who were there already. Mormons were hostile, huh?

Well, I don't know who was hostile, but their lifestyles were clashing, we'll just say. They just didn't have the same value systems. Why are you guys smoking that? Yeah, Jesus Christ. My eyes are burning. What's going on here? So at a meeting in 1853 at the schoolhouse here, Lorenzo Snow and Parley Pratt, these two guys, convinced the settlers to follow them and move into one big central fort.

So the fort was built in a 37-acre area, and that's where the settlers were kind know kind of hold up to protect themselves it's like circling the wagons to protect themselves from native attacks basically uh most people here and they did they changed it to american fork after the river to avoid confusion with salt lake city okay that's why that's what the river's named is american fork river so they were like let's just name ourselves after the river we'll take that body of water they could have named themselves anything that's you don't have to name'll take that body of water. They could have named themselves anything. You don't have to name yourself after a body of water. It's not a rule.

They would have loved River Talk with James and Jimmy. It would have been their favorite podcast ever. They would have hated it because they were like, these guys don't know shit about rivers. God damn it. They don't know a goddamn thing. They had a public school by the 1860s and this was the first community in the territory of Utah to offer public education to people there.

The American Fork had a rail access point for mining there in the 1870s and that sort of thing. The American Fork apparently had a feud with the town of Lehigh because the Utah Sugar Company chose Lehigh as the factory building site instead of American Fork. So they're pissed at them. Which made American Fork hate that other town. Rather than hating the sugar company, they hated those people. Those people didn't choose it. How dare you? That's ours, goddammit. Wow.

Oh, shit. We want jobs, too. I don't know. Goddamn. During World War II, the population really expanded here because they built the Columbia Steel Plant, and that became a big deal for the war effort. And they had an annual celebration in the summer back then. They changed it to Steel Days in the 40s.

We'll talk about what it was before that. It was all about steel. Before that, there were several other incarnations of this. Thank God for steel and war. Yeah, no shit. Celebrating war. Celebrating steel for war. Yeah.

Steel Day. Finally, jobs are here. Thank God people were pissed enough to fight about it. No shit. They built a city hospital in 1937. It took them that long to build a city hospital, and they built several since then. The Sandlot, the movie, obviously, the 1992 movie, was filmed in this area. Really?

It was filmed all along towns around Salt Lake City. Is that right? That's where they filmed it, apparently. I don't think I knew that. The carnival scene in Sandlot was filmed in American Fork on State Street by Robinson Park. Really? That is here. So, yeah, because it looks like fucking 40 years ago because it's Utah.

That's why. What do you think small towns in Utah look like? They look like 1964. What fucking year is it here? Am I? What? Did I try? Do I have an orange vest on?

Did I time travel? Is my DeLorean lost? What's happening here? What the fuck is going on? And they got everybody's clothes from the stores that are open then. They didn't tell anyone they were filming. They just set up some cameras real quiet, put like a tarp over them. They were like, just blend in.

Just do the scenes. That salmon hat was probably a plentiful down there. That's what I mean. It just took it off a kid's head. Also, several scenes from the movie footloose there too were filmed in american fork including the opening scene inside the church uh the front porch scene with kevin bacon and his family and the gas station scene where he gets gas for his volkswagen they're coming in so this is literally the town from footloose fascinating

that's how stiff this town is it is you people say that as a joke jesus christ it's like the town from Footloose. Fascinating. That's how stiff this town is. People say that as a joke. Jesus Christ, it's like the town from Footloose. Or like the preacher from the stiffest thing possible. This is the actual town from Footloose. This is fucked up. Somebody's saying that sarcastically here. As a matter of fact,

let me tell you a story. I met Kevin Bacon. Let's take you over where Bacon stayed the night. So a story. I met Kevin Bacon. Let's take over where Bacon stayed the night. So this has six degrees of Kevin Bacon, even the story. You can't get away from it. So the first ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized in 1851 in this area. First one. Not the first one in this area.

Got it. It was organized in 1851. The majority of the population here are Mormon, as we'll talk about. But there's also a Catholic parish there. Not a lot of them there, as we'll talk about, obviously. Let's get to some reviews here. Got it. Let's see here.

Here's a two-star review. Not real happy with them. American Fork, Utah, is a tiny town in Utah County. It's prominently white and Mormon. It has an extreme lack of diversity and is extremely conservative. It's rural Utah. If you're looking for diversity, Utah is not the place to go. Let's just say that.

Utah is a nice place. It's pretty. The people are very nice. But if you're saying, I want to mingle with more black people, I'm looking for maybe people from the South America, you're not going to find them here. I want lots of choices on my Asian cuisine. No. South America. You're not going to find them here. I want lots of choices on my Asian cuisine. No. Not there.

You're not going to get it. If you're looking for something fun to do, you're going to have to travel 30 plus minutes to Salt Lake City, which is that's a stretch to unless you like to ski. Enjoy Dave and Buster. Yeah. Because the lack because the lack of things to do. Many teenagers end up getting into trouble because they are bored. is the lack of things to do many teenagers end up getting into trouble because they are bored however if you're looking to for a quiet a quiet quaint small town to move to in your 60s this is the perfect place for you so there's that uh two star here's another one i would try to focus on

the positive in response to this inquiry however in my honest in my in all honesty this area's crime is bad and police services are even worse. Myself and many of my friends, family, and close associates have been affected by theft, drug violence, gang-related crimes, and police brutality. I challenge any gang in American Fork, Utah, personally. Kiss my ass, all of you. Throw down. Let's go, motherfucker. Whatever color you don't like, I'm going to go there and wear it and stand in the middle of the street.

Skin that smoke wagon. I ain't afraid of you. So, yeah, here's another one. Two star. I think this area tends to be populated with families. As a result, the area's restaurants and diversity is not great. Another one. Many about restaurants.

Don't try to find any open diners or restaurants or fast food establishments open after 11. And the few things that are open, don't expect kind service. Okay. 11 a.m. or p.m.? P.m. It's 11 a.m. You better be in church by 1130. So, shop, shop.

We're closing up shop. Everything closes at 11 a.m. Here's one that's a little more straightforward. The title of it is Don't Live Here. Uh-oh. Okay. No stars. You have my attention. Yeah. The title of it is Don't Live Here. Okay. No stars. You have my attention.

Yeah. The schools here are awful. The school curriculum I endured was years behind anywhere else I've lived. Milwaukee, Colorado Springs, or Denver. The teachers are extremely substandard. This makes for a less than intelligent general population.

I've met a lot of people who've moved here and they all agreed that the overall people here are especially ignorant. Almost everyone here is both Caucasian and Mormon. The lack of culture or diversity is painful to anyone who values either. There isn't anything to do if you're not LDS, and even if you are LDS, there still isn't much to do anyway. The attitude of the majority is very unhealthy with some of the highest prescription abuse rates, pornography rates, and illicit drug use. It's like a county in denial yeah it is it's going to be because it's like the highest they do studies the highest

viewing of interracial porn is down south because that's they yeah it's a you're covering for something you know i hate your sexy chocolatey boobs i hate them i hate the deliciousness of of your round behind i just don't like it like what do you you know i hate it damn it hmm thou doth protest too much it drives me nuts to think about how i can watch my penis go jesus it almost disappears into it oh my god i hate it i hate it i hate the fantasy so uh people here population was under 10 000 until about 1980 and then it's gone up a lot since then because it's a suburb people here right now about 28 507 it's up 82 since 1990 which is a lot uh more males than females but not by too much median age is 10 years younger than the average.

Here, it's 27.8. Young folks. Well, there's a lot of old people, but there is an ass, shit, fuck ton of kids. Yeah. Just so many. It's just double in all the kid demographics. Well, they have a lot of them. Yeah.

It's a Mormon population. They're having a lot of kids. They keep plunking them out. They're going to have as many as they can. Yeah. Married population is higher, too, as you're going to be expecting here it's about 60 percent uh the uh not a lot of not a lot of us uh single with children that's low it's under 10 percent they stay together uh race of this town not surprising here 86 percent white uh 0.6 percent black yeah 0.9% Asian, and 8.5% Hispanic you're going to get here.

Now, 95.7% of the people here are religious. That is fucking heavy. It's usually 50-50. 95. We've had like 71, and I was like, oh my God, this is 95.7. That 4.3 is so fun, though. They're the fun ones. They are a blast. 1. That 4.3 is so fun, though. They're the fun ones. They are a blast.

1.4% Catholic. That's probably your Hispanic population, I would assume. And Mormon, 93.3% LDS. That's unbelievable. It's working. Wow. Whatever they're doing. They even got the fucking Mexicans.

That's their favorite lately. That's what I mean. Well, there's a whole continent down there, and it goes into, oh, my God. And they love big families. Yeah, that's what's their favorite lately that's what i mean well there's a lot there's just they're like there's a whole continent down there and it goes in oh my god big family yeah that's what i mean it's the same beliefs so uh yeah they're like the catholics not conservative enough for you anymore feeling too loosey-goosey with the catholic church well then we have something what with their wine and all we have something for you mister you come over here leave that wine behind all the catholic Catholic rules without any alcohol. Yeah, well, we have more rules, as a matter of fact, as well.

If you like rules, we're the rule people. 0.0% Jewish. They took one look and went, I don't think so. We're going to keep going. West or east, but not here. In Utah County, a little conservative on the voting too last last uh election 14 of the people voted democrat uh 50 voter republican 36 independent is that right yes because it's so conservative there and the religious people said we're not

voting for the republican candidate even though we vote Republican because he is a blasphemer and a blah, blah, blah. So they didn't like him. So porn star Evan McMullen ran as a, you know, as the conservative. He took a shitload of votes. That's what I mean. It's a lot of votes. That's how serious they are there.

So unemployment rate here is low, actually. Right now, it's just over three percent, which I mean, not at the moment, probably at the second. But last time they checked in, we'll say. Household income, usually it's about $57,000. Here it is $71,000. So, yeah, that's a lot of people making between $75,000 and $150,000 in this area. And then after taxes and tithing, they take home about $70,000, $300,000.

Yeah, I think the average is about $12,450 after tithing, I believe. After tithing. That's how it works. Now, cost of living here, not factoring in tithing. Cost of living here, it's 100 is average and regular, par, whatever. Here it is 112.3. It's a little high. Mainly it's housing that's high.

The housing here is 152 over 100, so it's a little high uh mainly it's housing that's high the housing here is uh 152 at over 100 so it's a lot medium these houses are beautiful well they all have a shitload of bedrooms even the small houses it'll be a 1300 square foot house with five bedrooms and you're like okay i don't know where they squeeze these bedrooms into yeah but it's for a lot of kids they're set up for their family they're short so we can just put like we can cram them in i went to japan recently and in tokyo we can double deck a bedroom they sleep in drawers we could double deck them i'm just saying we could put like frame in about four feet high eight foot ceilings that's two rooms we'll stack them you ever been to a morgue now they had these they just pull them out we could put them in there's a lot of kids is what i'm saying i'm not saying there'll be no air or nothing we can jewish bury them for bed you know

just for bedtime we'll let them out that's right they must they must hate the quarantine yeah they can't gather and on top of that everyone's at home watching terrible things on tv that they don't want them to watch. Everybody's, they're all just home. Watching this tiger shit? Watching the net gays with the tigers and the Jew-loo and all their damn shows. Told you that them gays were going to make all of us. I knew it. He made two.

He made two of us gays. Tigers with viruses now running around. I think Joe Exotic gave it to them. I'm just saying. He gave them a virus. It's a gay tiger virus. Come to wreak havoc. So median home cost here, $352,500.

A little bit high. They're steep. Yeah, most of the houses are between $200,000 and $400,000. And if we've convinced you, damn it, you've been having too much fun. We have for you the American Fork Utah Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $1,050. That's decent. Which is low compared to the housing cost.

That's great. That's wild. That's under average nationally because most people have houses here. What are you going to rent? A two-bedroom apartment? Are you going to rent an apartment with your seven kids? I mean, that's fine for year one,

but then what? You're single in our town? Yeah, that's it. Not going to be for long. No. So I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,440-square-foot trailer. It's not great.

It's a fucking dump. You've been excommunicated by the church. You're not allowed to work anywhere. That's it. Oh, you're done. $55,000 for this thing. It's a place to live, I'll say. I found a three bedroom, two bath, 1,872 square foot house.

This one's nice, updated, got all the backsplashes and shit like that. Nice sinks and everything. But it's going to cost you $324,900 for 1,800 square feet. That's steep. Then I found this. You're going to stretch out. You're the guy skimming the tithes here.

You got your hand in the cookie jar. Six bedrooms, six baths, tea bowl for every b-hole. Yeah. God damn it. Let's go, Elder. Let's do it. 6,419 square feet. Stretch yourself out $899,900 $899,900

$900,000. What are you doing? $1 shy of it? No. I don't think so. So things to do here. I found Fork Fest. Hey, gotta have the Fork Fest. This is what the website says about it. Fork Fest is your unforgettable summer

kickoff with 28 bands, three stages, and one epic fest. I'm sold. This celebration of Utah-grown bands will include original music, art, vendors, food trucks, and other activities for the entire family, such as bounce houses a foam

machine and a children's art tent local bands and their original music oh that's gonna be i don't want to imagine how bad that's fuck you someone's gonna be like play some fucking bob seger's anything i recognize ever play montel jordan i don't give a shit. Play This Is How We Do It. I don't give a fuck at this point. Tell me how South Central doesn't like nobody. I don't care. I don't want to hear the song you wrote for the girl that broke up with you 12 years ago. For the love of Christ.

Local bands and your original music. Do Taylor Swift at this point. I don't give a shit. Just something. This is crazy. Anybody know any know any cardi b any of you play keith anyone have like a disabled little sister or something that can do cardi b for us possibly i don't know i'll listen to that first uh yeah here and uh you don't want to miss it children eight and under are free so bring 28 bands a fucking onslaught could you imagine on three stages so i found you i picked out some of the choices here yeah first of all joshua james yeah who just looks

like a dork he's got two j's uh another band called fictionist so i don't know if that's a religious band or what but fictionist there uh desert noises is another one that's that's just honest that's just honest is that just like we're in the desert we're making noises i don't know if that's got religious connotations to it like old testament shit there but uh making joyful noises and desert there's a lot of desert references i don't know or is it just a dude with like moses's band and then he plays like some cricket sounds. Maybe. And then he's got like a snake rattle.

Yeah, he's got a snake rattle and some locust sounds. Going to the background. Desert noises. Fucking horrible. That's actually, I would listen to that before I listen to local act original music. That sounds like if Moses had a late night talk show, that would be his band. That would be the house band. Everybody, how you doing?

Thank you so much for joining me. Moses here on the Moses Talk Hour. It's been great. First of all, give it up for the house band, Desert Noises, everybody. Desert Noises is going to pump the jams out all night long. Let's do it. Let's have our first guest. That song was called Seven Minutes of Rattlesnakes.

It's my favorite. It's a good one. It's my favorite. Next commercial, run that one again. I want to hear it. Okay? Everybody in the studio audience good with that? Oh, fuck.

Jesus Christ. Also, The Backseat Lovers, which doesn't sound Mormon appropriate at all. That sounds like kids getting it on. Book on Tapeworm. I just like the title of that i don't understand book on tapeworm i don't know there's a book i'm like tapeworms great and then the last band i chose is my favorite timmy the teeth okay i don't know if his teeth are great or terrible does he play music on him maybe i feel like his teeth are either like wonderful like he's just like this ridiculous mouth he's the only guy in town that had braces and he's got

yeah i know they're probably just all implants or something just beautiful sparkle or else they're terrible now general admission's 18 for this little affair in advance vip tickets 45 bucks what do you get for that i think parking comes with that which is ten dollars so it doesn't add up also steel days like we said formerly timber day then it was liberty day then for years it was poultry day which doesn't sound fun it's summertime let's go celebrate poultry which doesn't go well in the sun then it became steel day in 1945 for the war effort here it's their traditional celebration and uh they changed it to steel day because the mayor decided poultry day no longer reflected the city's economy just not enough

chickens here all right so uh yeah it's full of events similar to poultry day in 2018 uh the they still had steel day uh steel days they had uh they added the smoke and steel barbecue competition a kid's splash night i don't know what that is it's a pool or something because there's no pool it's just like sprinklers go run in the sprinklers that's horrible pickleball and spike ball tournaments all right what is a spike ball i don't know what that is i'm willing to play. Sure. I'll learn it. Peg some Mormons with a ball. Not that I want to peg them especially, but that's who's around. There's no one else to peg.

That's what's available. Not that I'm like, where are the Mormons? I'm going to peg them with a ball. I don't care what you do. It's like going to a daycare and saying, I want to throw balls at adults. Yeah. They aren't here. They aren't here.

Whether this has been a family tradition for years or you've never celebrated us, I want to invite you down to enjoy all the fun that Steel Days has to offer. You can create memories of your own, Jimmy. How do you feel about that? Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, the property crime just under the national average. It's right at average, pretty much. Violent crime, though, murder, rape, robbery, and assault,

the Mount Rushmore of crime, is only about one-third of the national average so that's low yeah they'll steal your shit there might be some cracky people here but they're not killing each other so much there's some prophet frowns upon that they're taking at least one commandment seriously here i'm not sure i don't even know if those are the commandments they follow oh who the hell i have no idea so with that said a nice safe clean little mormon town from the from the footloose let's talk about a murder that happened here and ruined everybody what do you say yeah i understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that i killed my wife hi my name is zach stewart pontier i'm one of the

filmmakers behind the Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to

go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love

to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Okay, to start this off, you can't start it off.

We got to start from the beginning. We have to talk about two young men. We have to talk about, well, they're not young now, but they were young then. Talk about Ron and Dan Lafferty. They're brothers. Ronald Watson Lafferty. He's born in 1941. And then Daniel Charles Lafferty, his little brother, who was born in 1948.

They blew it. They could have named them Ronald and Donald. Well, there's probably a Donald because the family grew up in a family of six boys and two girls it was eight kids oh not not fucking around oh my or certainly fucking around a lot i don't know how you'd have all those kids wouldn't they hear you fucking all the time making more kids i guess you don't care that's the joyful noise i guess mom and dad are expanding the expanding the faith i guess we're about to have a roommate i guess so make another drawer prepare the lower drawer that's another one coming in so a lot of this great background

there's a great background stuff that came from one source that was really good it was uh the deseret news and the the uh person who wrote it was jesse hyde came out in 2004 well done jesse very good stuff here uh on the background so uh they grew up in payson utah which is around here it's not too far but like every state has a pace yeah i saw pace and i'm like arizona it's a very basic bitch daughter it really is yeah it is no it No, Peyton and Payson. Right. Same type of thing. So Payson, family of six boys, two girls.

Their father is a goddamn maniac. This is the only way to put it. They call him a stern disciplinarian, but it's more than that. Really? He's angry. He's angry at his wife. He's angry at his kids. He's angry at his pets.

What? He's the type of guy that does something goes wrong for him he comes home and yells at the dog for it like he's just a lunatic uh one time he had this is rough he had a fight with his wife on a verbal fight with his wife so he beat the family dog to death with a baseball bat what yeah that's the type of guy we're dealing with here don't worry he'll be out of the picture soon we won't have to hear about him but that's the last dog violence in this episode that's the opposite of how that works that is fight with your wife terrible grab a drink whether yeah tea get yourself a tea doesn't matter there's caffeine you know what keep a bottle of whiskey in the

cabinet for situations like this sit down on the couch put some peanut butter on your finger i went easy there on your and then sit down on the couch and let that dog lick that peanut butter off your finger and see if you don't calm the fuck down well see if you don't want to not punch anybody you could just pet it too that too when that dog shows you like that dog drool and peanut butter off your finger his mind he's like oh this is delicious it's amazing so my god's, oh, Jesus, this guy's a mess. The father doesn't believe in modern medicine, really, either. Oh, no.

He goes by, bring him young one time, and his father quotes, I only bring this up because his father is the reason why. His father quotes this all the time. Said that doctors that are, quote, a worse set of ignoramuses do not walk the earth, is what he said of doctors. So, yeah. Ignoramus is do not walk the earth is what he said of doctors. So, yeah. So he he said that a lot of people said to his mother died of influenza and he got he had lost faith in doctors after that, too. So they couldn't even save my mother, blah, blah, blah.

So, yeah, he's he's a lunatic, basically. He's known as a handsome man, though, too. He's not like a broken down alcoholic he's a handsome guy very confident but extremely extremely rigid in his religious religiosity we'll say here uh one time he had a hernia that was just awful uh he said his son dan one of the ones we talked about here son dan said that he could actually hear his father's guts quote sloshing around inside his abdomen yeah uh for years oh my god he didn't do anything he would just try to push it back into place with his hands my grandpa did it yeah that's what he did tough son of a bitch to be able to do that because he didn't believe in doctors is that why your grandpa did it no my grandpa did it because it was expensive to fix

okay yeah the money that's different he would love a doctor to be like yeah whatever this guy would have would have chased a doctor off his front lawn with a shotgun who was trying to help him he's my grandfather would have loved it if one of them needed a trailer hit she i'll come over and put it on yeah that would have been a good deal actually got anything needing well i can take care of it you know what that's i'm sure doctor could have been a good deal, actually. You got anything needing welding? I can take care of it. You know what? Doctor could have used a welding, something for his office maybe, a nice metal art piece for the lobby. I don't know. So Dan also says that his father told him a story, what he called a providential story,

about when Dan was a baby in his high chair. He was standing in the kitchen where his mother was cooking something. Dan was rocking and trying to get out of the high chair like kids do. And apparently he went forward and fell forward. As he fell forward, the mother turned around to try to catch him

but had a knife in her hand from cooking. No, no, no. And Dan cut his throat on the knife. Oh, shit. The baby, not to death. He grows cooking. No, no, no. And Dan cut his throat on the knife. Oh, shit. The baby, not to death. He grows up, he cuts his, yeah. So cuts his throat on the knife. That could have been way worse.

Oh, it could have been death right there. So the father, obviously you would rush a child to the hospital for this. The father goes, nah, we're going to handle this a little differently. Held the baby, held Dan over the sink and washed the cut out and let the baby, you know, bleed out into the sink and washed the cut out and let the baby you know bleed out into the sink and washed it out and then just taped it up wow taped it unbelievable like a

what year was this the 50 no this was like 1949 1950 god and there was doctors around like there was not you know but just that's one of those things that hey i don't care what your beliefs are the baby's throat is cut right take it to someone who can stitch it please i don't care what you believe in if you don't believe in medicine do you know how to stitch no fucking flesh no take it to someone who does you don't need to if you have tape yeah just tape it up holds it together too just butterflied it and that that was good. So basically, they said that he would have these rages that would just, out of nowhere, he'd explode like crazy. Now, one of Dan's daughters later on says one of her, her name's Rebecca, she says one of her first memories of her grandfather, this crazy person, was she was about four years old. And the grandfather got her attention by throwing a toy at her and it hit her in the head this toy so she cried in pain and uh she said she told her mother

came in and said what happened and she told him and then her grandfather lied about it grandfather said i don't know what happened she did something to herself and everyone believed him and she was four so she's old enough to remember this and no he threw something at me yeah so that would obviously scare the shit out of a child you go wow my grandfather's not right in the head she said uh quote i just knew as a child to stay away from him yeah yeah i don't i don't blame him like out of anything he can throw his reach yeah that's crazy it's fucking nuts now ron who's the older brother he has a different relationship but he gets really upset at his father for all of this most of the kids just kind of take it and hole up and you know kind of shelter together uh whereas

he has a different thing he gets he gets really mad. Ron, at one time, said, quote, I saw him get mad, talking about his father fighting with his mother. He says, I saw him get mad and bloody her face, bloody her nose. I used to go in my room and curse God for giving me that piece of shit for a father. I shook my fist at God, but I was just too little. If he was bigger, God would have listened, is what he said. A little six-year-old screaming, he's a piece of shit you piece of shit father by the way he's got a great uh theory on cursing later that's fantastic it's fucking wonderful so ron also says quote i wanted

to kill my father yeah every time i saw him hit my mother which fair yeah i could understand that he says that uh also ron was a frequent target he got it he got the shit beaten out of him from his dad a lot because he was an older boy so he would get it would take it out on him the dog's gone yeah already beat up the mom who's left all right there's my older older son let me punch him there's nothing worse than that scream man yeah oh it's fucking horrible when she's scared it's awful it's fucking especially your mother so once uh one time he says his father struck him out of nowhere just punched him for no reason because he was angry at something else and uh uh he said apparently punched him for no reason and then when the kid was on the ground uh his father like stood over him and pointed at the mother and said she's she's mine ron was 10 years

old i don't know what that meant he had a reverse oedipal thing i don't know where i don't reverse oedipus is a weird thing i never heard of that before the father wanted to kill the son to not so they don't fuck the mother that's a that's a really or he's just explaining to him this is what i get to do to her i guess so, I don't know what it is. So old Watson here, that's the father, by the way, Watson here, he, I mean, imagine growing up under this. And then on top of this, he would scream crazy religious things all the time. He was like a very fervently religious. So you add that in with this fear of just an eruption at any time something's going to come and then he might scream at you about god or who the shit knows that either forces you to

be extreme one way or the other yeah it doesn't make you go right up the middle with no one of the kids a couple of the kids are going to be hippies yeah you know for sure they're going to like live in portland and the daughter's going to be like a lesbian and like smoke weed and be like listen i'm just trying to help the homeless. And that's it. And then the rest of the kids are going to be pastors and who knows. That's what's going to happen, though. It's wild.

So that's how it goes with extreme, raising a kid extreme in any direction. So he taught the kids most of all and above all, Watson taught his children to distrust not only conventional medicine, but above that, God damn it, the federal government. You hate those bastards no matter what. So one time, this is how religious he is, okay, the father. One of his sons shot himself accidentally in the stomach with an arrow. Oh, what? An arrow.

Like a bow and arrow. He shot it backward? How did he do that? You got it the wrong way, Junior. I don't know what he did. arrow oh what an arrow like a bow and arrow he shot it backward yeah i think if you're trying the wrong way jr i don't know what he did shot himself in the stomach with an arrow seems like the easiest weapon to operate to not if you were going to commit suicide it wouldn't be i'm going to get a bow and push it down with my foot there's probably very little bow suicides bow and arrow suicide you really gotta try you gotta want it that's creative like i feel like detectives would There's probably very little bow suicides. Bow and arrow suicide. You really got to try. You got to want it.

That's creative. I feel like detectives would walk in and go, I think he did it himself. Wow. It's one for the books. We got to put this in the yearbook. If I'm a detective and I walk in, somebody's got an arrow in them,

I'm looking for... No suicide. There's no way he did that to himself. No fucking way. How the fuck did he do that? I don't know, but he shot himself in the stomach with an arrow and he needed medical attention, obviously. And this is one of the rare times where he would get it because the guy had a fucking arrow sticking out of his stomach.

The father told him, not now, though. I'm not going to take you now. You're going to have to kind of ride this one out till the morning because that's that's your that's that's your punishment for breaking the Sabbath. You shouldn't have been out there fucking around on the Sabbath anyway. What? So as punishment for that, you can wait till morning with the arrow in your stomach. You can go on Monday. Night.

Wow. Get in your drawer. Yeah. With the arrow. They couldn't even close the drawer that night, Jimmy. The arrow was stuck in there. Just saw it down. So Ron and Dan became really tight in this mess, as kids often do, just to have someone

else to be close to and to confide in. It's a rollercoaster. Yeah. You need to say in times of shit, you, you hole up with people. So they became best friends,

even despite their seven year age gap. Uh, they were, uh, both known for, uh, fights they got into all the time. And,

they were both very aggressive, uh, physically and shit like that they uh they grew up kind of like the town was a like we said it's the footloose town and imagine it actually in this in the 50s it was so actually the foot it was actually the footloose town and they they it was very much like described like andy griffith like they their favorite fishing hole they went to all the time uh dan and his you know dan and ron and their four brothers would fish at the lake in the summer

and then they'd skate on it when it would you know when it would freeze in the winter and they'd go into the woods and make forts and you know do normal kid shit uh dan uh felt always that ron was kind of he was kind of lording over him all the time because he's his older brother. So he always felt like he had his older brother telling him what to do, directing him and shit like that. But he says that he didn't mind it so much. One time, Dan says that some bullies gave him some shit. Not physical shit, but they were picking on him.

And what ended up happening, Ron ended up showing up and beating the shit out of everybody. A hero. Yeah, he was seven years older. So he's like, if you're 17 and beating the shit out of everybody. A hero. Yeah, he's seven years older. So he's like, if you're 17 and there's a bunch of 10-year-olds, we discussed this on Crime and Sports, I could kick the shit out of just

an incalculable number of 10-year-olds. I could just, you could send them in waves. I don't know, you send them in waves. I'll kick them off my legs if they help. What are they going to do? As an adult person. I will drink a

beer while I do it I can just spin around with a fist and just they go flying it doesn't even matter you don't even have to know how to fight you could do anything so another week yeah 17 you're like yeah the target practice if you get to punch kids there so uh Dan says about this uh uh when you grow up I'm'm sorry, this is Watson Jr. Of course, they had to name a junior. This is the oldest son. There's one in there. When you grow up in a family where dad gives you a licking, the other siblings can sole the one who got the licking, and then you compare bruises and kind of look out for each other that way.

Is that how it works? Apparently so, if you have a lot of siblings. I never had a lot of siblings. So, they said that the father was a lot of siblings i never had a lot of siblings um so they said that the father was a product of the great depression so he was that's a tough era to grow up in and especially in the west you know in the great depression is there a lot of wife punching in the face in the great depression well yeah back in the day people just that was just normal to yeah a lot of your wife's face it's crazy uh he lost his mother when he was five okay to the 1918

influenza okay uh deal here so uh uh she says uh the one brother says quote i don't think he got a lot of nurturing the father i doubt it yeah probably not times are tough right if you're you know what do you need a hug i gotta get fucking beans and rice tonight he's born in 1913 i mean that's a those are tough times man so jesus christ finally ron had had enough by the time he turned 17 uh he he he had had it uh ron apparently uh ron apparently had gone out early to help a man in the neighborhood bring in his hay very important to bring in the hay crop you know the you can't let the hay crop sit in the field you know how it goes. He returned home later that morning,

and he was taking a nap on the couch when one of his brothers called him to come pluck some chickens. And so Ron was really tired because he woke up at dawn to carry hay, and he said he wasn't plucking any chickens. So here comes Dad. He's not happy at all.

He punches Ron, and ron this time uh fights back he's 17 he's had enough yeah and he decides this time he starts swinging on his dad yeah and at that i've been practicing on 10 year olds i'm in let's go let's do this yeah i've been fucking target practice on those guys so at that point he starts punching his father back ron says that his father quote uh was quote running off like a little bitch crying mother mother that's what he said i like this kid apparently jimmy yeah what have we said about he's my kind of guy let's not go there damn it let's hold off on that just give me 20 minutes and you're going to go, what a terrible man. I just like that he fought back and he's saying great phrases.

That's terrific. Amazing sentences. Run away like a little bitch. Take that, dad. Crying mother, mother. Yeah. Where's that in the scripture, fucker? So Ron says after that, never had another problem with his dad again.

His dad never gave him a drop of shit from then on because he had nothing to back it up with. He knew that Ron would fight back and that was the end of it. So he said that that gave him a new confidence. He felt like he overcame his fucking demon. This was like the thing that haunted him his whole life. The thing that held him down every single day. The boogie monster in his closet where he couldn't sleep every day.

He finally opened it up and just dragged him out and set him on fire burned him alive he opened the door kicked it in the balls and said shut the fuck up i'm trying to sleep you little bitch so he goes at that point he goes on his mission is there lds he goes on his lds mission ron does and he He goes to Florida and he with this newfound confidence we're sending you to the most damned land of all. It's pirates and whores and thieves. Son, be careful. He got off the plane and was like, oh my god.

I am overwhelmed. Why are there roosters? That's his first question. Why are there roosters running around everywhere? What's going on here? Trying to pluck them? People are like, no, no. It's not what we do here those are just friendly no oh shit i've been beating them and plucking them that's all i know how to do so he apparently with this newfound confidence from beating the shit out of his dad it served him well he goes to florida and like he's like recruiting people left and right during his mission i mean he's like the top recruiter

over there he is salesman number one he's gonna win the steak knives like he fucking is winning the set of steak knives he's sailboat in the bottle he's done it man uh so when he gets back home he's done so well that they're he starts like moving up in the church he's like a he's like a superstar coming home in the church like oh here he is with 26 conversions first guest of the night on the moses show once again for the once again for the desert noises everybody give it up for them coming out tonight the most conversions in the state of florida and god knows we need it they made it the most everybody it's ron lafferty come on out ron

hey how you doing invited to the couch and everything oh my first my first time and i'm invited to the couch wow it's impressive before that he did like a chicken plucking like as you would do and they're like we'll see you around next time no couch not this time oh good one guys yeah so he does that. He assumes a leadership positions in the church. I don't know what any of this means, but including three LDS biz hoprics. I don't know what those are. Cy Young by shoprics. I don't know what that is. I think.

Yeah, it's like an MVP award. Yeah. He had a couple of those. That's not bad. It's a batting title. Yeah, it's pretty good. award. Yeah, he had a couple of those. That's not bad. It's a batting title. Yeah. It's pretty good. Yeah, a couple of golden gloves.

I mean, well, his conversion rate was like 306, which is really good if you think about it. I mean, it doesn't, you know, a lot of guys are hitting in like the 220s in their conversion rate. It's not good. Pretty impressive what he did. Yeah, he'll squeak out an extra bouncer up the middle every once in a while. He upped his average. So his father here obviously his father also made dan a nut too uh he says that they're they're uh they're her

dan's son rebecca or dan's daughter rebecca jesus christ almighty dan's son rebecca dan's son's father wow i am wow uh she says that the the, the grandfather made her father, Dan, a little wacky. She said about her father, Dan, quote, He's come to believe that life is hard and that God wants you to teach. God wants to teach you through pain and punishment. That's his father's mentality. That's how his father raised him. So fucking word. I would say so.

Now, Ron, I don't want to learn no this sounds awful you learn by getting punched right now later on here you want to learn this is gonna hurt it's all right buckle up hold on let me roll my sleeves up wait i don't want to get blood on my sleeve now ron lafferty the son of the older one he served on highlands first city council when it's a town in utah here was incorporated in 1977 he served on their first city council and uh what did he do what how did he choose to use that power he led a successful drive to outlaw beer sales in the town's only grocery store you asshole yeah so uh that's thanks asshole the old job to take away the fun now people to drive an hour to buy beer right thanks dick um yeah so jesus christ he

he was a clean cut all-american guy in the mornings he'd milk the cows and go do the things with the farm and he gets married and has children he has horses and goats and chickens and he's doing just i mean thriving he's a mormon thriving uh dan is also you know he has a family of his own uh ron will end up having six children with his wife yeah not too shabby now dan he's weird uh right from the beginning really uh dan instead of buying baby food, want to guess what Dan does? For his babies? For babies. Oh, boy.

Does he make it? Oh, you could say that, yeah. He chews the food into a mush and then spits it into the mouths of his children. Baby birds as kids. Like a bird. That's gross. Or, yes, like that crazy SNL sketch. Jesus Christ.

Which is one of the most nauseating things of all time. That's so gross. Yeah. What actress does that? There's an actress that does that, and I can't remember who it was. God damn it. Is it the girl from Bridesmaids? No, it's not.

I don't remember. Is it older than that? I don't remember. Some actress in the last 10 years came out saying that's how they feed their kids, too. And I was like, whoa. Oh. It's creepy. Was it that Kristen Bell chick?

Did she do it? No. No. No. I can see her doing that. Yeah, but they wouldn't give her a Walmart commercial if she was doing weird shit like that. People would be like, is that the chick who chews her food up and spits in her kid's mouth?

I'm not buying fucking my shitty inflatable yard pool from there anymore. Right. No, not happening. I can see her doing that shit. She does it and doesn't tell anybody. Behind closed doors. Kristen Bell and Dax Shepard. Dax, turn around.

Turn around, Dax. Leave the room. Two of those weirdos. But why? I have to do this. I'm doing something. It's very important. I care about the health of our child.

All right, I guess. I need him to have sweet peas. I'll go make my podcast, I guess. I don't know. Fuck it. That's why he's not enough that I'm on television and movies. I think I'll invade this space where people are. Thanks. Thanks.

Thanks, Dix. Thanks, everybody. That is a great point. Thanks. You have enough. Right. You have enough. Don't use this quarantine to get in here.

Hey, Conan O'Brien. You know, you also, you've been on television for 27 fucking years. That's not enough for you? That's not enough for you. Why don't you make five podcasts, too, you fucking red-haired douchebag? Jesus fucking Christ. And I like Conan. No, you don't.

You have money. You have money. You have friends. And more than that, you have 27 years of television show that you've done, you fucking and i like the guy but get out get out let us have this all of you out i'm sorry if you have been on a television series in the last say i don't know 24 months you're not allowed to have a podcast if you've appeared in a movie and had more than one speaking line in the last five years you're not allowed to have a fucking podcast go away uh me and my girlfriend were famous and we're gonna stay in and we're just gonna make a podcast we'll put it on the internet yay terrific god damn it look at you Fucking bastards Alright so We wanna compete

Yeah We're trying We'll be in like The top 25 in comedy And you're like If anybody on that list Checks they must be like Who the fuck are those

Two idiots Why are they doing this Who are those two TV show TV show Movie star Movie star TV show

Two assholes Who are they They're probably Ganging up to get us out of there. They don't belong. They're in the VIP room and they shouldn't be. Who do you know with an IMDB page? Let's make them do a podcast.

Jesus Christ. Every fucking week, there's six more. Oh, there's six more. Everybody's... Fuckers. Leave us alone. We climb and then you have brand new shows and we push down because of you because

of you so give us reviews and tell your friends to compete with movie stars thank you everybody that's why we ask you please do that because we don't we can't just go hey everybody hey put out a tweet to my 400 000 followers hey my 1.5 million instagram followers i'm starting a podcast because i just felt like it because i'm bored. No. It sounds so fun. Isn't it fun? So back to the Lafferty's. Oh, man. Spoiler alert.

Fucking spoiled ass celebrity says shit's a nightmare. Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. Well, not for them because they have staff. Some shit. And they just people who do it. They just sit and record and they go, that was fun.

And then someone else edits it and puts it all. That's me. That was so fun. I just had my famous. Jimmy, you're like a celebrity. You come over and sit right down and I'll record. Have a good one. I gotta go, James.

I gotta go. Have a good one. Jesus Christ. So he, anyway, Dan, Dan Lafferty here. He's chewing food into mush and spitting it, regurgitating it into his child's mouth. into mush and spitting it regurgitating it into his child's mouth he also later refuses to pay taxes or dan refuses to pay taxes because he believes he's above the laws of man not only that not only taxes he refuses to obey traffic laws he's i'm above the traffic laws i will not pay federal taxes or stop at that corner because I don't believe in it.

Okay. Now, I can get on board with that part. Yeah, it's it's I do. That's fine. In 1982, Dan is excommunicated from the church for the LDS church excommunicates him for. Well, I was trying to think of what you what would get you excommunicated. And then I read what he did and I went, yeah, that'll do it. Trying to take his 14-year-old stepdaughter as a second wife.

No, you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't make your stepdaughter a sister wife. No. That ain't right. Move to Arizona City, you'll be all right. Yeah, not in nowhere, not within 30 minutes of Salt Lake City. You can't do this shit.

I'm sorry. Not within 30 minutes of where the Olympics. You can't do this shit. I'm sorry. Not within 30 minutes of where the Olympics are going to happen. And eventually it's not going to work. So this is in 1982. This happens. So, you know, Dan's 34 years old. Oh, God, James. He decides, I'd like to take my 14 year old daughter as a second wife.

Stepdaughter. Stepdaughter. Yeah, not daughter. Let's you know that he for sure consummated that. Oh, I'm sure he did. oh boy so uh he told his brothers jesus christ dan tells his brothers that us me you you couple of the brothers not all of them alan isn't into this at all we'll talk about that they have a brother named alan who's a little like i think they're a little fucking nuts i'm gonna hang out over here with my family and not deal with this shit going on here so uh dan and tells his brothers listen all of us are the true

leaders of god's church this is what nobody understands everybody's out there and they're talking they go to church every so they don't realize that it's they should be talking us talking to the wrong fucking people uh not only that they believed him uh too they were like really he's like i'm telling you guys sounds awesome i was told this and they're like oh shit damn all right so they let their beards and hair grow long to mimic biblical prophets yeah that was their their uh angle here so this is wow uh the six of these boys they they now only hang out with each other the brothers because you know everybody else well who else are you gonna hang out with and go what are you gonna talk about what have you been up to well tell you what my but did you know that we're the

true leaders of god's church my brother said my brothers yeah this is where true leaders it's weird how it all came out of one family and everything but my dad's got some golden testes you see when he fires out a load it makes profits except for my one sister she lives in portland i don't know it's got hairy armpits now and shit but we just don't talk about her she don't even come for christmas oh boy so uh they just do that uh basically what they would do is complain about the LDS church being not strict enough. Not strict enough. I mean, these people, look at them.

They're going to let people dance now soon. What's going to happen here? Because this is right after, you have to understand, 1980 is when they outlawed polygamy, officially, the church. So up until then, polygamy was technically legal in the church. And also, it wasn't until 1978 that they decided that black people weren't terrible, cursed people. That was when they started to say, you know what? Maybe that whole sliding scale based on skin tone thing, maybe we're all off on that. You know what? Because we looked at it, and there's a shitload of dark people that we could recruit.

There's a shitload of money in those pockets. What I'm saying is 10% is 10%. I'm saying Karl Malone's got a lot of tithing. That's what I mean. If you look at it, I mean, his contract. I'd love to have some tithing out of Karl Malone. I'm going to get tithing out of him, boy. I'll tell you what.

Jesus Christ. So, yeah, they're looking carl malone's tithing uh they they were basically they would argue about the church not argue but talk about the church and about how bad the u.s government wants to hated the government hated the church damn light stays red too long well it was literally the church and the 19 early 1980s ronald reagan hardcore conservative movement neither of those were conservative enough for them they were both like listen that's a little you guys are still a week bunch of pussies bunch of pussies uh now ron's wife decided that he that she did not want

to practice polygamy yeah and so that's what i mean the church was reforming and these guys were like pussies don't give in. You're giving in. This would be like people who are like, The Catholics are letting people eat meat on Fridays. I'm done. I'm done. It's the government and the goddamn IRS taking our money and telling us how to live.

Next thing you know, they're going to be taxing our fish fry. I'm not doing it. So Ron's wife said, in addition to Dan's wife, who said, You're not allowed to marry my daughter as well. But they stayed together. said in addition to dan's wife who said you're not allowed to marry my daughter as well uh but they stayed together ron's wife refused to practice polygamy even though he wanted to and ended up leaving him good uh leaves him now this is great for her takes their six children uh they divorce in early 1984 she takes all six kids and gets out of there goes to florida to get

away from him he'll never come here. Again, you either go extreme one way or fucking super extreme the other way. But that's like he'll never come here. Do you notice that always polygamy is

dudes with a bunch of wives? It's never a chick with a bunch of husbands. No. Chick's like, what do I want a bunch of husbands for? What do I want that shit for?

You know how long it takes to train one? Forget about it. I just got him where i want i'm gonna bring more in now and he's the war is gonna come in filling them their heads with tales of freedom and things that are happening on the outside it's gonna ruin all the work i did with the first one it's gonna take me forever if you get five of them together never mind they're gonna sit around talking about how they can just do this with five other women i mean if we get six

they're just gonna play three on three basketball all day and i'm not gonna get shit out of the shit done so one whereas men are like what if i had a bunch of women to to be disappointed with me sexually wouldn't that be wonderful i can get eight of them and they can all talk about how shitty i am in bed and how little my dick is man so what ron does is he says all right here we're gonna do this is ridiculous my wife left polygamy is bad everyone's frowning on this we're gonna do this ourselves me i'm the leader me and my brothers new new sect new sect polygamy is legal not only legal encouraged polygamy number one they gave out foam fingers when you join it's a polygamy number one on it and uh they called themselves the school of the school of the prophets okay in night this was in

1984 and they claimed that they received messages directly from god at this point one of those messages now uh one of those messages his wife diana left now part of the one of the reasons why she left was she received encouragement from their younger brother alan oh they have a younger brother alan who's 22 with 1984 having none of their 25 and his wife brenda is thinks that they're all crazy and knows that they're all crazy now alan is on the periphery of this too alan's like with his wife like i know they're fucking crazy they're my brothers they're all crazy. Now, Alan is on the periphery of this, too. Alan's like with his wife, like, I know they're fucking crazy. They're my brothers.

I gotta go hang out with them and talk about the church and the government for a while. The polygamy thing sounds cool. I'll come home and tell you how crazy they are. Don't worry, I'm not getting any other wives. She was like, you are not doing this. He's like, all right, I know, I know, I know.

I'm not doing it, I understand. What you think are understood. I get it, but I gotta go hang out with my brothers. I have to, it's a thing. I'm sorry. It's a thing. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that

if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us

and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red

wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener.

Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So apparently, Brenda, who was Alan's wife, helped Ron's wife run away to Florida. She was given also. Now, she helped her. Brenda helped her. No, Brenda helped her emotionally. You should do it.

You should do it. You should do it. I'll help you. You're not doing anything wrong. You're not going against God. You're not doing any of this shit. You're fixing your life. That shit's crazy.

Go the fuck to Florida. That's the thing so also a man named richard w stowe and chloe lowe are two other people who helped stowe and lowe uh they were stowe was the it was a stake president in the mormon church and she drew he drew on the church for resources to give ron's wife food and money after she left and to hide her basically they hid her because they know that he left the church railing against them they think he's a nut yeah so if people want to get away from that crazy sect they're happy to help them get away from beautiful so they do uh they they drew on the sort resources of the church to give her money and shit like that and chloe low who is the wife of a mormon bishop uh bishop counseled her and

took her in their home for a short time to hide her and then they gave her the resources to go to florida so nice yeah he he's not happy with this at all uh and he also said ron got a message from god right around the time his wife left yeah oh. Oh, no. His message from God said that his wife, there's a reason why she did this, and now it makes sense. Yeah. His wife that left him, she was a bride of Satan in a previous life.

Of course. So, I mean, when that happens. Sounds right. This is what I mean. You have to know who you're marrying. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we watch a glove after lockup

and a 90-day fiance. You don't know who you're marrying. They could be a bride of Satan in a previous life. You don't know this. It takes a lifetime to understand who they are today. Yeah, to now. Forget about, it's hard to figure that out. Yeah, you could be a bride of Satan.

You could be a, you know. Gotta wait and rely on that God to tell you. Yeah, fuck man. Anything's possible. Now you tell me, Jesus. Now you, Jesus. Thanks God. It would have been nice to tell me before I'm there.

He shook his fist more. Thanks a lot. Thanks for my shitty father and my bride of Satan wife. Why do I even do this? Why do I bother? Maybe my father wasn't the piece of shit. Maybe it's you, sir. Maybe you did this.

So in another message, he said he was told by God that four people caused all of his problems, Ron says. Yeah. Okay? They caused his excommunication. They caused his divorce. Yeah. And everything like that. The first one, and most important, being Alan's wife, Brenda.

Of course. Fuck Brenda, number one. She's a real bitch. And their 15-month-old daughter, Erica, is also involved in this plot. Yeah. She came to talk. Alan and brenda's mom you know what she's apparently according according to the word of god now this like i said this isn't coming from me jimmy this is it's the word of god who am i to dispute it uh they said uh he believed

that she would grow up to be quote just as despicable as her mother as well so basically brenda just had like another one in line, like a whack-a-mole. Like if Brenda left, then her daughter would grow up and do the same thing, just like ruin his life. She'll be a bitch, then she'll have a daughter. She'll be a bitch.

And it's just going to be this bitch parade. Constantly shitting on me. Shitting and bitching, all of them. So, Jesus Christ. He spent his days and nights at an old home in Orem, and they called it The Farm at this home. And he would be writing what he believed would one day be read as scripture. He's writing the scripture now.

A manifesto. Yeah. It's otherwise known as a nutbag manifesto with the word God sprinkled literally in through it. That's all that is. That's all that is. That's what you are if you're starting your own sect based on words you've heard from god yeah that's all you're it's a manifesto you have to author a pamphlet that is thick yeah that's called a manifesto to explain right your

position that has a name yeah it is called a manifesto so uh he started to get really mad though and he was very much angry uh about the people who caused his divorce. Number one, like I said, was Brenda. Number two was and her daughter, obviously, Brenda and Erica. The kid was, you know, you know what was going on. Also, Chloe Lowe, the LDS Relief Society president who helped took his wife in and then helped her get to Florida, as well as Richard Stowe. Yeah, Stowe and Lowe. Stowe and Lowe. Gotta go. wife in and then helped her get to florida as well as richard stowe yeah stow and low and low

gotta go the highland lds stake president who presided over that he presided also over ron's excommunication really he kicked him out of the church and then helped his wife and six kids leave him so ron is fucking double pissed at him stowe is ruining lives left and right totally it's a bad man and of course like we said brenda lafferty the wife of alan so now uh uh jesus christ brenda brenda's doesn't fit into this clan that's the thing about brenda brenda sounds like a very normal woman brenda is uh she's a former beauty queen former beauty queen in high school so she did things like that she's you know just aware of herself she's a college graduate yeah she wasn't you know just getting married at 18 and started having kids

and smart she's going having kids uh she had a lot of confidence being a beauty queen and a college graduate being smart and pretty gives you confidence weird yeah you're smart and good looking you tend to be confident it's weird so yeah she had confidence dumb and ugly like me is no way it doesn't work at all we just shout out crazy things that no one cares about but if she says something people go she might be right tell me more pretty girl pretty and that sounded pretty smart where'd you graduate shit i didn't go to college so she would actually say things when things were crazy she'd be like listen your brothers are fucking nuts right this is ridiculous yeah you know like any other normal human being would like imagine any of you out there if you're if you're a man and you're married imagine telling your wife any of the things that these guys have

just said what would she say to you propose that to your wife that's what brenda's gonna live yeah if your wife has the same thing as brenda's uh response congratulations you picked a good one that's it so brenda eventually here now after she helped the wife leave and everything, she stops Alan from joining the School of Prophets. Oh, no. He's not allowed to join. My wife said, no, guys, I can't go. I picture him kicking the dirt in front of him. My wife said, no, can't come out.

She said, I can't help Ron. I got to be in by like 8, so I'm going to go now. She's more strict than you guys are. Yeah, it's super weird. That's why I like it there. It's good. So, yeah, Ron, of course, very angry at this. I mean, Jesus Christ, this woman drove the wife away.

Now the brother's not allowed. She's breaking up the brothers and the family. This is ridiculous. So March of 1984, Ron sits down with a yellow legal pad and writes down his one of his scriptures this is what uh will be known as the removal revelation okay uh this is he he told his brothers about this and everything after on on the other people because they've started to recruit other weirdos too into the school of the prophets uh drifters literally they'll find drifters and be like nice beard you want to join this is joe exotic. It's what it is, man.

So, whoa. Yeah. This is what it says. Okay. I'll give it to you. Let's get to this. Thus saith the Lord unto my servants and prophets. Oh, you see what I mean?

He's pious as fuck. It is my will and commandment that ye remove the following individuals in order that my work might go forward. Oh, boy. For they have truly become obstacles in my path and I will not allow my work to be stopped. First, thy brother's wife, Brenda. First, that it bitcheth Brenda. Brenda, thou bitch. What the fuck?

He gave forth a hit list. Thy brother's wife, Brenda. There's never been a thy in a hit list before, though, I don't think. And her baby. Then, Chloe Lowe and then Richard Stowe. And it is my will that they be removed in rapid succession. That's what he said. And he called that a divine plan.

Oh, boy. That is neither divine nor a plan. There's no plan in that at all. That's just what? Kill them fast. Thou bitch, Brenda. Number one. Thy mouth on her.

This guy. What an asshole. So he said this would you know other he needed alan it was part of the part of the divine prophecy is that they needed all six brothers and if this woman is going to pull alan out of it what are we supposed to do we got five let's just do deny god what the fuck do i look like five-sided star is ugly we need a six i don't deny god that's what i'm getting at here so uh that's what he says i'm not doing it so july 24th 1984 uh ron and dan uh they set out in a battered green station wagon it's a 1974 piece of shit oh yeah uh they they roll out in this this is an 84 but it's still battered uh They are driving to Alan and Brenda's house in American Fork. It's a duplex attached to another house. They have with them.

Well, first of all, they have two drifters with them because I like to hang out with drifters. Hang on. One is Charles Chip Carnes. He's 23 years old. And then Ricky Knapp of Wichita, Kansas, who's 24 years old. These are literally ones from New Mexico, ones from Kansas, just drifters that wandered into town.

Chuck and Ricky. They've talked them into hanging out with them, and now they're in the car. Oh, they also have some other stuff with them, like a sawed-off shotgun, a.30-30 Winchester, a.270 deer rifle, and two pearl-handled knives. My word. They're coming prepared.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a gun for everybody. A.270 takes down elk, babe. Yeah. That's a lot of weapon. That's a lot. That's what I yeah yeah that's a gun for everybody 270 takes down elk babe that's a lot of weapon it's a lot that's what i mean that's a little much so uh yeah these guys the drifters had started to wander into the school of the prophets church and so they're hanging out there uh now karns and nap the two drifters they stay in the car the when they get to the duplex the brothers go inside brenda lafferty's house okay uh now okay what they do in there is fucking horrific um i'll cut to the chase as quick as possible because it's it's it's it's really fucking bad uh basically they uh uh we'll we'll

we'll find tell you what alan found here Alan arrives home at 8 o'clock. He's tired. He worked. It's 8 o'clock at night. Walks in the front door, and it's locked. They never lock their doors, so he thought that was weird. But who knows? So he used his key.

Gets in. There's a TV he's on, and there's a baseball game on really loud, which is also abnormal. She doesn't watch baseball. And she doesn't watch baseball. That's the other thing. She doesn't like it. He turned off the TV, and it uh seemed really quiet he thought nobody was home but he said well maybe brenda took the baby and went out or something like that so he said quote

i turned to go see if maybe she was at the neighbors and i noticed some blood near the door on a light switch and then he saw brenda in the kitchen and she is very much not alive and it is just a blood it's a lake of blood is the best way to describe it that's how it was described in this book um now they uh he calls you know he screams out brenda and she doesn't move uh he said he knelt beside her and put his hand on her shoulder he said i touched her and her body felt cool there was blood on her face and pretty much everywhere so she reached he grabbed the kitchen phone to call the police and call an ambulance or call whoever the fuck you call at this point call 9-1-1 the phone was on the floor next to his wife he called 9-1-1 but there's no dial tone

because the cord had been ripped out of the wall so uh he runs down to the bedroom to find that phone and uh when he does that he looks in oh no he looks in the baby's room and sees erica also uh motionless in her crib and there's blood there as well so we don't have to get into the details of that uh but he uh yeah so he noticed that uh that also there's blood smeared on the walls now he sees on the doors on the curtains he's starting to see all this now also there's blood smeared on the walls now he sees on the doors on the curtains he's starting to see all this now and uh he runs next door because the phone in the bedroom doesn't work either so he runs next door and uh and uh says that he called the police and then he called his mother also to tell them and uh the woman the next door neighbor said i could hear this whale come

from the phone i can't even explain it to talk of you know when she was telling people about it uh so that's what happens there yeah now the guys what they did is uh so they killed chloe and erica uh i'm sorry they killed brenda and erica uh brenda they stabbed 15 times i believe and the baby they cut the baby's throat that's what happened there jesus which is awful so terrible shit right there. So craziness. And what they say about it later is even fucking crazier. So next, they go over to Chloe Lowe's house. She's next on the list.

They find her. They break in. They break into her home and she's not there. No, she's not home. It's not home. So they steal a bunch of shit and leave. She's not there. What are you going to do they steal a bunch of shit and leave it's not there what are you gonna do you know no lives to take but we got tv fuck it yeah we'll take some

shit some jewelry so then they're on their way to richard stowe's house yeah he's the guy that you know presided over the excommunication stowe was home at the time he's using a tractor out front to remove a set of concrete steps with his son. So he's easy pickings. Problem is the guys, no GPS back then. They missed the turn off to the house and kept driving. And they were like, they got about a mile down the road and said, oh, shit, it's back that way. Fuck.

Fuck it. And they just kept driving. We missed the turn. That's all right. Fuck it. You know what? I mean, the word of god blah blah blah but we did half half and half i mean yeah 50 god's got to be happy with that right most people

don't listen to him at all we listen to half it's pretty good so the cops immediately suspect alan alan's a prime suspect here oh it's the only people dead it's his family it looks like yeah so always that guy and i i found them and oh i was so hard the phone was ripped out i couldn't call you it sounds very suspicious so they grill him all night i mean it's which is horrible or bastard is for a bastard exactly uh they assumed he was the murderer you know obviously uh now alan though says no it's not me but i know who the fuck did it yeah uh probably my brother you want to talk to him the oldest there talk to ron first and uh so uh that they obviously that's a that's a a lead uh yeah they said that he'd been traveling around the west for the last three months with dan

and uh so they put an apb out for the 1974 Impala station wagon and the police look at it and they say the slayings appeared to be ritualistic, which was, you know, odd, obviously. And this was very big news when this was announced. Oh, I can imagine. Huge. This was also on Pioneer Day, which is a huge Mormon thing.

Oh, Jesus. They did it on Pioneer Day. Yeah, it's a giant Mormon thing. And a kid that isn't even two. Not even two. Ridiculous. Oh, boy, oh, Jesus. They did it on Pioneer Day. Yeah, it's a giant Mormon thing. And a kid that isn't even two. Not even two. Ridiculous. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

So July 30th, 1984, they find Ron's Impala. It's parked out in front of a house in Cheyenne, Wyoming. So the police gather up. The state police raid the home, hoping to find the Lafferty brothers, but they don't. They are not there. They do arrest ricky knapp and ship carnes who are the two drifters yeah there they take them in uh so they get taken in they don't find the brothers for almost three more weeks they finally weeks

three weeks they finally find them august 17th 1984 they went to wendover and then over to reno and they were arrested this is the saddest shit ever they were arrested in the casino buffet line oh no at yeah circus circus in vegas no in reno reno circus circus buffet line god you know what they did you a favor yeah you didn't eat that fucking food because it was probably horrible blue and that sounds terrible yeah that's fucking disgusting bad food i am not eating that jesus christ wasn't that was in vegas vacation they were eating buffet and he goes give me a little bit of the blue and that was in vegas right what do you think reno's like yeah reno's like fucking laughlin yeah had syphilis yeah it's not good i've stayed i've stayed at circus circus in vegas and the carpet was a different pattern than the like you know that little bit of carpet that rises up yeah yeah it was a different

fucking than that slice it on the ground why did we even do why did we make an effort why bother that's still clean it's not as stinky the stuff on the wall i don't have to replace that nobody can walk on that they don't walk on walls what are you gonna do it's fine for now 89.95 a night gross jesus christ now dan when he's arrested uh j Christ, he tells the arresting officers, quote, you think I've committed a crime of homicide, but I have not. He insists after that that he's completely innocent of the crime, but he doesn't deny killing them. What's his excuse? How does that happen? He says, quote, I was doing God's will, which is not a crime.

Oh, God's will. God said, thy bitch ass wife, Brenda said thy bitch-ass wife brenda thy brother's bitch wife brenda musteth die and i kill what the fuck is the problem stop signs and bitchy wives they all gotta go not doing it throw taxes in there too so ron also he's very open about his religious beliefs he does an interview right away uh the reporters get to him and he says quote the prophecies are about to be fulfilled that's what ron says uh then he also says jesus christ i think i noted that as a revelation i think i noted that as a revelation when i was in the school of prophets yes and they said words from god and he said yes and then he said he didn't murder brenda and the daughter he said

quote why would they execute me they don't have any grounds i'm innocent of all those stupid charges and they said you've never killed you you never killed brenda lafferty and he said no i never admitted to that and then he never talks to the press again ron literally never talks to the press ever shut the fuck up dan certainly likes to yap yeah oh boy dan will talk to anybody that'll talk to him he'll give you any he doesn't understand tell you all your crazy shit that a prophecy just happening uh versus like telling people go murder these people and that happening a little different entirely different yeah he just said i've been told to murder people then i told people to murder people and that's not a prophecy. I said to do it.

I'm the only one that heard the word of God. You convince homeless drifters to go kill people. That's what you did. So right away, competency is an issue because they want to whatever. Ron and Dan, they refused appointment of counsel. And so because of that, and they had really weird behavior during the arraignment, they would shout out and curse at the judge and shit like that. So they said, you know, the state's probably going to want to make sure they're competent. So they file a petition for inquiry into their competence and they get a bunch of reports from psychiatrists and psychologists.

And yeah, now, wow. Dan, he says this is this is what ends up happening because he'll say exactly what happens. I mean, he says this is crazy. He says shortly afternoon, he and Ron and the two drifters they've been traveling with. They drove to the apartment, Alan's apartment. And he said that inside there, he found, you know, they found Brenda. They found Erica first. And he said quote i spoke

with her to her for a minute i told her i'm not sure what this is all about but apparently it's god will it's god's will that you leave this world perhaps we can talk about it later and he said then he uh he you know like we talked about i don't have to go into it more he killed the child and then he said he calmly walked into the kitchen and used the same knife to kill brenda um yeah he says said those words out loud yeah he's told told the reporter straight up yeah i told her this the baby and you know had a conversation with her and then i murdered her and i sent her murdered a baby no problem yeah so uh stow and low they ask him about them and dan says i would have killed them the same way but once once the next step didn't happen i knew it wasn't meant to be once chloe wasn't home there wasn't much enthusiasm for it they

just lost their lost our drive sometimes you just lose your luster yeah it's like you know what i've been having fun but at this point like it's over you know it's like it was fun for a while but i don't know not enough a new enthusiasm for let's go to circus circus instead i got enthusiasm for a bad buffet yes murder that's what it is man so uh a neighbor here said that her 14 year old daughter used to babysit erica three days a week and she said on the day of the murder brenda called and asked for her daughter to babysit and pace says that she had an uncomfortable feeling and didn't want her daughter to go out that night and uh the mother says quote she could have been there the thought had crossed my mind a lot as a mother i feel so bad for what brenda went through

but as a mother i also feel grateful that my daughter wasn't there yeah obviously because they probably would have killed whoever was there would they god is this cool all right and start stabbing this one too oh shit well you heard god oh you didn't well i did i did don't worry about it what matters so they charge uh uh everybody for all four of them with two counts of criminal homicide two counts of aggravated burglary and two counts of conspiracy to commit homicide the two drifters plead guilty to lesser charges in exchange for their testimony they're like we don't believe in any of this shit. How little time can we spend in prison? Because they weren't even in the house

when this shit happened. They stayed outside the whole time. They were in the car. They just went along for the ride. So October 1984 is when we start Ron's competency journey, which is crazy. You have to, by the way,

listen to the end of this because Dan really goes into crazy philosophical shit later on from prison that is bonkers. We got to talk about it. It's crazy, funny, crazy shit. So, Ron, the first assessment occurred. The trial court said to do it because he would claim that basically he refused the appointment of counsel because he said that he would claim the state was without jurisdiction to try them because God directed their actions. So obviously you have no...

Unless you got God in here. Yeah, so... It's not worth it. This is the exchange that happened between him and a judge. Okay? This is fucking... He said this to a judge in court. Who's probably LDS.

I'm sure. Yeah. The judge said, quote, this is a temporal court. In other words, of the people, you know, human, whatever, earthly earthly way it's structured along the lines where people deal with people's problems and as to where truth comes down in that setting that's the way the system is to have the truth come out but it's but it's uh from people uh from so-called witnesses and others who've had some association with or knowledge of the facts that are important so So Ron says, quote, so this court's not prepared to deal with matters pertaining to religion

and that sort of thing. Is that what you're saying? And the judge said, well, and then Ron cut him off and he said, or spiritual matters. And the judge said, well, this is not a spiritual court. This is a temporal court. And Ron says, I needed to know that. Thank you. And the judge will be leaving now the judge said I'll

proceed with you Ronald Lafferty to the information and the five counts therefore that have just been presented are you prepared at this time to enter a plea six counts excuse me and Ron says I guess I'm not your honor because of the statement that you made because of the religious overtones and the spiritual overtones in this matter you mentioned that this court doesn't deal with that sort of thing. So it seems to me perhaps you don't have jurisdiction here, sir. As a result, I'm not prepared to enter a plea because I don't want to give up my right to challenge the jurisdiction of this court, sir. So the court says, the judge says, the court will then enter a not guilty plea on your behalf. Thank you.

Like, what do we even bring him here for? Jesus Christ. So they also had him examined then and had another hearing. Both of these people. How great is that? Wouldn't it be great to just look at this dead in the face and go, you got no jurisdiction. You don't have any jurisdiction. I'm sorry.

You're unqualified. Clearly a matter of God. You said it yourself. I didn't say you weren't. This don't have any jurisdiction. I'm sorry. You're unqualified. Clearly a matter of God. You said it yourself. I didn't say you weren't. This wasn't God's court. You said it. So, hey, what do you want from me? A couple people, one of these doctors testified in his opinion

that he tentatively diagnosed Ron with a mental illness as paranoid delusional state. The court concluded that after hearing that, that he was still competent though two physicians examined him again in 19 october 84 they believed he was incompetent one of the doctors limited his conclusion uh he said that the defendant quote may not be competent to proceed with the court process because of his mental illness and then uh both another doctor interviewed him and found him cooperative although one noted that he refused to take any written psychiatric tests.

So he's like half cooperative. Another, Dr. Grosbeck, reported that Ron was well aware of being charged with murder, but refused to accept appointed counsel because he felt that all lawyers are corrupt. He said that Ron could very quickly and easily outline the functions of the judge, attorneys, defendant, and jury, and noted he was fully oriented to time, place, and person. So not crazy is what they're saying. In addition, he knew he faced a death penalty and insightfully avoided discussing anything incriminating. They said that his intellectual level appeared to be

average or above average. But both doctors thought that he was incompetent due to mental illness. They wrote he suffered from grandiosity and was afflicted with paranoid personality system or disorder which yeah sounds about right or he's just an asshole right either that or we've concluded that he may just be an asshole perfect perfect so uh jesus christ they uh they said that he couldn't effectively represent himself and questioned his ability to assist his attorney appointed for him because they want to defend themselves.

Both brothers, obviously. Next evaluation comes a month later. And this one comes not from the court's directive. This comes from the prison because he attacked a guard and the guard requested that he get a competency exam to see if he should be even in the prison. guard requested that he get a competency exam to see if he should be even in the prison apparently the the guard said that ron seemed quote physically out of control and did not appear to be mentally in control of his faculties at the time of the attack apparently he just went on like a berserker attack on him here so a team of doctors including a clinical and a forensic psychologist and three physicians examined him for 22 days that must

have been a trip imagine having that guy behind glass like a fucking experiment for 22 to ask him this he's like breathing holes and see what he says about this i just want to play with him so uh yeah 22 days jesus christ so uh they found him incompetent there. But then in November, he was found competent again. They keep going back and forth. How long was the one in November, though? Because if it's 22 days and that deems you as incompetent, any other test. Look, we had him for almost a month.

Well, that's what they say. They say that the November exam, which was more thorough, would get rid of the Octoberober exam that the one that said he was competent this one says he's not competent so they said they said that during the exam his limited willingness to participate in formal psychological testing was noted his paranoid traits were also recognized along with his fundamentalist religious beliefs and fervent interest in strict interpretation of constitutional law what a dick this guy is god he's one of those people fuck i swear to christ if he was out of jail right now he'd be like a tea party congress member it's the exact fucking thing i'm not making a political judgment those guys are fucking crazy if you don't think they're crazy you're you wouldn't be listening to the show if you didn't

think they were crazy you're in too normal right you're too just normal to think that yeah fucking jesus christ goddamn constitution your confederate flag and your we all like don't tread on me flag constitution's great yeah calm the fuck down is what we're getting at so uh he's he uh they also persuaded him to take two psychological tests including an iq test and the uh the inkblot test as well. The IQ showed an above-average intellectual ability, while no evidence of formal thought disorder was suggested here. Some history compiled that they think he once suffered from bipolar disorder, but there was no signs or symptoms of it during the exam that had been there. It's like it's there now, basically.

So November 28, 1984, they hold a hearing here, following all this evaluating. And at the hearing, Jesus Christ, him and his brother both attack the doctor's conclusions, arguing that they're not incompetent, goddammit. They are competent. And not only are they competent to stand trial, they are competent and capable of representing themselves at trial as well.

And they're gonna kick your ass this sunday at wrestlemania that's what it is inside the steel cage he also ron maintained his main reason for refusing appointed counsel was because we feel we have our own best interests at heart he felt he was competent for the same for these reasons and he took issue with the paranoid personality disorder diagnosis which according to him was made on the basis of his divine revelations which who the fuck are you to judge my divine revelations uh yeah he hates this because it discounts all of his legitimacy as a prophet that's the thing ruins it yeah you're just a crazy person no i'm a prophet no i'm amazing wow what are you talking

about he's like uh john travolta in that movie where he's got like a tumor but he thinks he's magic or whatever i don't remember what the fuck it was so i don't know he's got something wrong it's pretty awesome it probably should have been on the back of the picture of him yeah he's got a tumor but he thinks he's magic enjoy the movie here you go you can fill in the rest right catch it come on 50 cents more you can make that a large perfect so now he he says this in court he reads this statement quote this is Ron. And the delusional and the delusion system or the problems that he, Dr. Washburn, he means, mentioned here. I don't understand these long words here.

He relates that to the fact that we claim to have received direct revelation from God, which, of course, we do claim. But what but we have been taught since we were knee high to a grasshopper that that was what we were supposed to do in the church that we were in. So this shouldn't be such a shock to an individual, especially when the individual is a member of the same church. Judge, you fucking Jack Mormon. You know what? You know what I'm talking about. So, yeah, they they during this during this hearing, they acted as their own counsel, called to question various witnesses in the state who were acquainted with them. Knee high to a grasshopper to be a crazy motherfucker.

So that's your counsel. They called none of the witnesses as experts or experts as witnesses. Obviously, during this two day hearing to wow, a hearing to see if you're crazy where you represent yourself. That's cold. That's's amazing that's balls during the hearing the court told them numerous times what they called in court documents painstakingly explained how foolish it was for them to represent themselves during the time the court saw how they behaved in these discussions and further observed them dealing with witnesses but in the end the court rules that they are competent and it's said that if either of them suffered from mental

illness or a clear preponderance or clear preponderance of the evidence did not reveal that they were so impaired they couldn't comprehend the nature of what they were doing so there you go competent for trial fuckers that ruined Yeah. So now they're competent. They can represent themselves and stand trial. Were they trying to argue that they weren't competent? No, they were arguing that they were competent. Okay, so they won. They won. That's what I mean.

They clearly... I don't know if they're sane or not, but they really want this bad. So let's just give it to them. Fuck it. So they're supposed to stand trial together in January of 1985. bucket so they're supposed to stand trial together in january of 1985 but on december 30th 1984 ron lafferty uh tries to hang himself with a t-shirt oh in prison t-shirt tied to a towel rack he's found uh barely breathing and unconscious uh he is uh you know he's revitalized or whatever. Reanimated. Reanimated. His court-appointed attorney says that the act damaged his brain, causing him to lose memory and the ability to control his emotions.

Convenient. Yeah. So a judge granted emotion, allowing them to be tried separately so they can get Dan's trial over with and deal with Ron later. So, of course course this prompted more mental health examinations and everything like that uh they say uh the hospital team concluded after 20 days of evaluation that he was incompetent and exhumer exhibited numerous signs of organic brain damage from the hanging uh so they said that his iq was 20 points lower than they got two months ago from him from losing oxygen and they said that the uh after a while though they started to he started to get function back

and he started to recover from this and he generally remembered what happened and told one doctor his personal problems were caused by others which is obviously what he does all the time he named chloe law yeah as low sorry low as a person who intruded in his family affairs this is when he's coming out of this whole thing and said quote this wouldn't have happened if chloe law had minded her own business low obviously did i say low again low so uh obviously he does not like chloe low no it's not low and stowe are not good so january 28th 1985 here's another hearing for Ron. This is when they go over all this shit, all of his loss of oxygen and all this type of shit.

So that goes on, and they say the court finds him incompetent at this time and remands him to the state hospital for further treatment and schedules another hearing for April to try to figure out when he can go on trial but dan's trial comes up and he represents himself and it's a shit show as you might imagine uh he had two attorneys standing by they had both drifter witnesses sitting there it didn't go well for dan no uh jurors convict him. He is found guilty of two counts of first-degree murder and four other felonies here. But when sentencing comes up, the jury gets together. You, sir, they do not. You may fuck off, but they're unable to vote unanimously on the death penalty, and he's sentenced to two life terms.

That's all right. So they can't come to an agreement on the death penalty, even though he said cut a baby's throat which i'd be like well let's kill him now what do you say how forgiving anybody got like a pocket knife on him and stab him right in the temple this motherfucker somebody do it so april 2nd 1995 is ron's last competency hearing boy there's some weird shit coming up here uh the same four examiners again they're like this guy's hilarious yeah could you imagine we get a take two for four months they've been looking at this guy they got to be like this is fascinating he's fascinating unbelievable this report concluded by these four that lafferty was not competent due to a paranoid delusional system that severely impaired his ability to perceive

and interpret reality uh doctors howell austin and grosbeck also testified in support of their findings. The gist of what was that Lafferty physically knew the nature of the proceedings against him and the possible consequences. He was unable as a result of his paranoid delusional system to interpret them in a realistic way. He didn't know. They said in the delusional system, Lafferty believed that the examining doctors, the court system and personnel and his own lawyer were part of a corrupt manmade order, which he rejected and which he believed was that was actually on trial, not him. So he was trying to he thought he was trying to prosecute the outside forces because of these delusional beliefs. The doctor said that he couldn't cooperate with the lawyer. The final competency hearing here, that was those three. And then a fourth doctor comes in who didn't examine him for 22 days.

And he said, he's fucking fine. He goes, I looked at him for a minute. He's good. Yeah. That one guy said he's okay? One guy said he's good. He said, I think he's fine. The other three are like, that guy's a fucking nut.

Yeah. They said they attributed any of his lack of rationality due to a personality change caused by oxygen deprivation. They said that now, this is the doctors who say he's crazy. As a result, they said his religious beliefs were now so delusional they interfere with his ability to meaningfully function either independently in a courtroom or with the aid of counsel in a courtroom. So, wow. in a courtroom or with the aid of counsel in a courtroom. So, wow. Also, he had a seizure, apparently, that involved his left hand and arm and a doctor's note that said he was having trouble playing pool.

He forgot which ball was the cue ball and whether he was supposed to hit the striped or colored balls. Okay. He's hitting the black one. Yeah. They said he suffered from amnesia and paranoia. Okay. He's hitting the black one?

Yeah, they said he suffered from amnesia and paranoia. So the prosecutor said that he's full of shit and that he can assist his counsel. He understands the proceedings and we should move on with this goddamn shit here. He's a crazy son of a bitch. We knew that to begin with. Right. No reason to let him off the hook here. So the judge, after hearing from the lawyer, the one doctor saying Ron's fine, said, quote, although the defendant may be operating within a paranoid delusional system, there's no evidence except a suicide attempt of of a rational behavior within that system or within the system of his religious beliefs.

In fact, his refusal to cooperate, assist counsel or admit that he's amenable to the laws of the state of Utah are all consistent with his paranoia and a delusional system pertaining to his religion. So they find him competent to stand trial hell yeah so since he's super crazy but we like his brand of crazy he's just the right amount of crazy one in four doctors agree he can go forward yeah so it's it's really fine uh he apparently did crazy shit in court, too. He would yell at the judge. He was completely uncooperative with his lawyers. Jesus. Did he bring those three doctors in to say he's not competent? No, no.

Really? It's a long story legally of what you're allowed to bring in. But the defense is really weird. to bring in uh but the the defense is really weird the uh the judge said that he uh consulted with his attorney quite frequently at the council table and that to him was a sign that he was you know whatever he says that his observations left him more convinced now uh that he was competent to proceed so there we go so april 1985 is ron's trial okay uh now one of his brothers watson testifies that ron had bitter feelings toward brenda and referred to her as that bitch brenda hell yeah all the time it's just like we thought poor brenda jesus and uh and uh a neighbor here or i'm sorry nap one of the drifters

he said uh he was in the station wagon in the driveway he testified that dan forced his way into brenda's home and he could hear an argument that's what was going on and uh the brother also he testifies that ron uh like i said called her that bitch uh now uh the uh drifter here nap he was the one testifying that dan forced his way in and that he could hear an argument out in the car he said that ron uh he said the drifter told Ron, why don't you go inside and help your brother? I hear arguing and shit going on. Who knows what's going on? So then Ron went inside and he could hear Brenda begging for her life, basically.

And, you know, not begging them not to hurt her kid and shit like that and crying and stuff. And then he testified quote then there was just no more crying oh boy uh so um the other drifter carnes he said on the way to nevada ron lafferty pulled a knife out of his boot and started to bang it on his knee and he said quote i killed her i killed her i killed the bitch i can't believe i killed her okay then he handed the knife to dan and said, thank you, brother, for doing the baby, because I don't think I had it in me. That's what he said.

Dan replied. What? It was no problem. Oh, my God. Super easy. You know, God said to do it. So super easy. You got it, brother.

You got it, brother. No problem at all. So Alan takes the stand as well to recount finding this what he found if you're a jury that's gonna man uh he testified that he never took ron's revelation seriously and was always trying to distance himself from the brothers and that's when his wife was a part of that now the defense here um the defense jesus christ how do you defend that? Yeah. During the trial, the court ruled that the medical expert or expert medical evidence admissible on the lesser included offense of manslaughter. The Lafferty's can Lafferty. Ron's counsel began to present the evidence.

Ron refused to let him proceed. He wouldn't let him proceed with putting evidence out. with putting evidence out. Contrary to the attorney's forcefully expressed belief that the presentation was imperative, as a result of his decision, the attorney was left

with no option but to rest. Basically, he wouldn't let him put on a defense. That was it. So he is convicted, guilty of capital fucking murder. Right. And the jury comes back here

with the sentencing and they say, you, sir, may fuck off death penalty for wow ron gets the death penalty we don't need his crazy ass around here damn caught a baby's fucking head yeah and he got life unbelievable ron gets a death penalty because it's his idea right it's all it's all coming from him he wrote a scripture, a prophecy saying that thy Brendan bitch die. Crazy shit like that. Good God here.

So, yeah. So he's convicted, obviously. So they said that also the way he was arguing with his attorney not to present shit showed that he knew what was going on. He knew that if his attorney presented this, it would be good for his case. So he wouldn't let him do it. So they said that it was even further proof he was competent but uh 1991 he appeals uh he appeals the origin saying the original trial judge failed to adequately address his mental competency okay uh and out of this uh he ends up getting a retrial out of this whole thing yeah they said that uh this is one of the one thing yeah they said that uh this is

one of the one of the they say that the judge absolutely did that was too quick to call him you know whatever uh but then somebody here one of the uh opinions of one of the justices here said quote i doubt whether the court would be so quick to hold an individual incompetent to stand trial who refused to raise an insanity defense because of an unorthodox political beliefs. For example, tax protesters and other political protesters are often in court expressing their extreme and inaccurate beliefs about the Constitution in bizarre ways. Although these individuals are wrong and may make decisions contrary to their best legal interest, they're not necessarily incompetent. Like Mr. Lafferty, they may possess a factual understanding of court

proceedings and can, if they choose, consult with a lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding when one is judged incompetent for rejecting his attorney's advice we will then have truly established elitism of the bench and bar so basically it's your right to be a crazy fuck who won't take obviously pertinent legal advice pertinent legal advice that's your right so we shouldn't call you crazy just because you're crazy okay is it that what they're saying or is he just saying like if you don't but just because you don't believe that this is accurate doesn't mean that yeah well he said you wouldn't call somebody because they're saying he's crazy because this is religiosity he's saying you wouldn't call someone crazy because they're a tax protester and didn't pay their taxes because of their constitutional beliefs yes because the constitution exists as

it laws and and things that actually happen the rest of it the word of god can be interpreted differently by every person on earth it's a different you know what i mean see david i'm gonna make any joke yeah i'm not gonna make any judgments on it but i mean let's face it we know what happened with one one word of god can be individually interpreted because there's different people saying god speaks to me so who knows very well documented what how the constitution happened why and what what it says you can change it that's the other thing right you're allowed to change it there's amendments so it's well they did it for hundreds and hundreds of years but it'd be harder now yeah so 1996 now you know the guy that's erased yeah ron's retrial here he has a retrial uh during this he spews expletives at the judge awesome as much as possible uh he wore a sign during the

entire retrial like a fucking sandwich sign that said exit only what on the seat of his pants he put that sign he says why did he do this yeah to ward off evil spirits he believed wanted to enter his body through his anus he said that in court they're crawling through the back door they said sir why do you have that on and that's literally what he said. He wore it off evil spirits. They want to enter my body through my anus. The judge said, you know what? I'm going to let it go. That's fine. You're sitting down most of the time.

Keep it going. Whatever, dude. I'm not going to argue with you about that. So at his second trial, Daniel testifies and says, I killed everybody. Ron didn't do shit. I killed everybody. Yeah. But another member of the group here says that uh

obviously testified that ron took out his knife and said i can't believe i killed her i killed her i killed her five fucking times so he's saying no ron killed brenda dan killed the baby that's how it went so that's how that goes so ron is again found guilty of murder obviously you sir take your sign and fuck off may fuck off again die again fucker so two to another death sentence here uh and it it's fucking amazing too uh everybody thinks you know they're gonna execute him eventually here he gets to choose because it's utah oh that's right he takes firing squad yeah he does okay so that's the most dramatic yeah that's the one where it's crazy if you're a would-be prophet that's how you're gonna die it's so super dramatic yeah it's not just clinical in a room it's like oh they're

gonna i'm gonna get like it's like combat they're gonna so uh like the 1700s this is gonna be amazing yeah so one of his lawyers says that he's chosen that but she doesn't believe uh she doesn't believe he's mentally fit to even have stood trial she says quote mr lafferty believed his incarceration and conviction were the result of a conspiracy between the state the church and unseen spiritual forces including the spirit of the trial judge's deceased father among others he believed i'm not done yet he's not or he's not done i should say he believed that all of his attorneys were working against him oh boy and that one attorney was actually his reincarnated sister ron's reincarnated sister who later became

possessed by an evil spirit holy shit and. And now he's his lawyer. I don't know what to say about that. This attorney says, a person suffering from this level of mental illness and delusional thinking is not competent to assist his counsel through legal proceedings. He's crazy, yeah.

2001 appeal. Here he has his, Utah Supreme Court affirms his conviction and his sentence. Fuck off. He says this is based on evidence saying that Dan's testimony said he committed the murders, not Ron. So obviously, you know, he shouldn't be there in prison. I should be out on the streets preaching the good word. Obviously.

So 2004 now. It's still going on. Still still not executed murder's 20 years old still not executed uh the utah legislature ended the execution option in 2004 for what you get to pick what you want except for inmates who have already been sentenced to die and selected their method so you get your grandfathered firing squad in, they're going to tell you how to die. So this whole thing, I guess, has been agonizing for Brenda's family. Obviously, one of her relatives here says, why can't we be done with that? Why can't this be done with? There's a lot of anger that his sentence hasn't been carried out. We're constantly reminded that they're still here at a great cost to the taxpayers. Not only do you lose somebody, but you continue to lose

them every time it comes up in court. I just hope people remember who Brenda was. She was a fun person with a lot of energy and personality. She has not been forgotten. Good. That's good. At least Brenda had her say a little bit. Now, they said that she hopes one day the Lafferty's will be forgotten, but now they're still sitting there in prison.

Wow. Like I said, they talked still sitting there in prison. Wow. Like I said, this was they talked to like in this article from 2004. They talked to some of the people in the town. By the way, I still have some crazy shit coming up from Dan that he says in prison. Awesome. It's wild. So this they talk to these people. One of the neighbors are this is the American Fork police chief at the time.

He says, I'm sure old time residents remember. It's one of those threshold events that people just don't forget. And then one neighbor stepped in and said, I don't think I'll ever forget. Yeah. I, for one, never going to forget. He's right. Yeah. He's right.

Yeah. My blood ran cold that day. Another one said it damaged so many people's lives. It's amazing how many people it hurt. The new the police the american fork police chief said that he spent 12 hours at that crime scene other officers had nightmares of warm blood dripping down their arms like people had this damage like mentally this fucked up this is they're not used to seeing this this they're not like a baltimore homicide

detective that sees a lot of shit and they're like that's another baby fucking set on fire again jesus christ they don't see shit like this so when they see what i told you happened to that baby yeah that's gonna fuck you up if you're not used to seeing that shit i don't think i'd ever get used to that no no you'd have no you you would if you were uh if you were seeing that every day you're a coroner you would no they do those corners those people are nuts fuck those because they do it all day it's all they deal with i don't know how they do that homicide to tend the homicide book the david simon book they talk about how uh you know they'll watch some they'll watch an autopsy and then go be like the the the challenge then is to go out and get the try to get some grossest food possible like the rare roast beef or the shit like that most fucking the cops bloody sandwich the cops say babies are different

though that fucks them up too oh my god they have kids and shit like that that's not not not okay so uh um a firing squad execution would do that to me i don't know that oh that'd be fucking horrible yeah it's it's how many guys is it is it 10 and only one guy's got a bullet or is it seven either way there's only one bullet live in those guns. I thought that was an extra. I don't know. I believe it's only one. Either way. It's fucking crazy. It's crazy shit.

So we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it in the bonus episode this week when we talk about botched executions. The firing squad is the least botched

method of execution, actually. I'll bet that's true. We'll talk about it. Yeah, we'll talk about that and last meals as well. Patreon episode. So the rest of the Lafferty's here, only one of the six brothers stayed in Utah. The left, the rest of the lafferty's here uh only one of the six

brothers stayed in utah the left the rest of them scattered for places where everyone didn't know about what happened and yeah exactly not known as the crazy family who killed the babies uh so uh one neighbor said quote even after all this time you mentioned the lafferty's and that's all people think of how can one how can How much pain can one family bear? Another neighbor said, I love Alan. I care about him and hope things are okay. Everyone looked at him like, what's your part? What was your part?

But Alan was a good-hearted man. I just hope he's found some peace in life. I mean, this guy got took. That poor bastard. He lost his wife and baby. And then not only that, his brothers, he had to testify against his brothers and kind of excommunicate himself from his family. Right.

And then everyone else thinks he's part of that. So there's nothing he can do. His life was just incalculably fucked. He had to leave Utah. You'd have to. It's like being one of the Arquettes. Yeah, it is. Are any of them sane?

Except less crazy. Yeah. These people are less crazy than the Arquettes. So, at least David. Yeah. I don't know about the rest of them. He's wild, man. He's out there.

Yeah. So, other people, one of Brenda's former next-door neighbors, they wonder why Alan didn't warn his wife about the revelation when the brother told him about it. Probably thought he could talk him out of it or that he was just talking shit. He's just yapping. If you haven't killed killed people yet you don't expect anyone to actually kill somebody that's crazy uh so this uh brenda's oldest sister says quote he's the one who let her down he should have taken care of her that day i have a hard time not thinking that he knew something and that would be that's brutal i mean from her too from her standpoint i don't blame

her yeah i would feel the same way if i was her my niece and sister took my niece and sister how would you not think that but then if you're him it's hard it's just no nothing good came of this nothing good uh now uh only of the six boys and two girls the eight lafferty siblings only one brother and one sister reached out to brenda's family uh and And also some of Ron's sons have apologized publicly for what their father did. Please don't blame us for Christ's sake. Ron will not talk to the press. He's pissed off.

He's angry. Dan says. And well, he says that Dan that Ron is sitting there waiting for a chance to kill him because when they first got in jail okay when they first arrived in jail ron tried to kill dan and then they were a team after that but now dan says that ron would kill him if he got the chance it's weird shit so here's dan in prison okay uh they describe him in this article the deseret news uh wearing his hair pulled up into a ponytail on top of his head like they said uh you know like a buddhist monk he calls his 1987 girl or a girl

he calls the prison his monastery dan does uh he hasn't shaved since he since he was sentenced to life in prison uh he has like you know rubber bands wrapping his beard shit like to keep it like that uh yeah this is this is weird shit wow uh he says he called he talks about the murders of his sister in law niece they said that he talked describes it quote as if he were a surgeon recounting a routine medical procedure he claims responsibility for both murders although you know ron was convicted of killing brenda uh he says how in the middle of it he starts he's cursing in the middle of a sentence like he lets off a casual curse which seems to surprise the reporter so he stops telling his story to say yeah my vocabulary has become liberated he says because he realized there's no sin in cursing

which i've said that for years so i'm this is great that i'm agreeing with this guy for once he says quote god doesn't give a fuck about words everybody god doesn't give a fuck about words thank you god does not give a fuck about words what god cares about is anything that makes you happy and that doesn't hurt anyone else so anyways i was praying pretty steady from that point on so i pushed my way into the house and i took those two lives wow literally was like now curson's fine so anyway i cut this baby's throat huh imagine being a person with a fucking tape recorder a pad and pencil here in this uh-huh

i opened my sister holy fucking shit give a fuck about words i mean they're just words what he cares about is when i opened that baby's throat when i yeah when i nearly took a baby's head off he said so they asked him about that does that bother you and he says quote it's never haunted me it's never bothered me real calm he says quote i don't blame anyone for not understanding but if you had done it it wouldn't haunt you either. It was a strange phenomenon. Oh, no, it wasn't. Oh, no. He says that he and his brother were led by God to beat Brenda unconscious.

This is what they did to her, by the way. Exactly. Beat her unconscious, wrap a vacuum cord around her neck and strangle her until she passed out and then stabbed her and slit her throat. Wow. At 24 years old with a baby that's what they did to her fucking horrible he then describes it quote i held brenda's hair and did it pretty much the way they did it in the scriptures is what he said in the scriptures what scriptures did they do that i i don't know i don't remember in the Bible where they describe. I don't know. Cut a head off. I'm not sure.

Then I walked into Erica's room. I talked to her for a minute. I said, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to do this, but I guess God wants you home. Like I said, and he said he looked away as he slit the baby's throat. That's what he said. He goes, I like to think that she didn't suffer. It probably should draw more sympathy than it does, but I don't feel it. Oh, my God.

This guy's a fucking monster yeah he's a fucking monster he believes all organized religion is of the devil and although religion's his favorite he loves to talk about it but he says it's all of the devil he says he even tore up all the scripture all of his scriptures years ago and threw them in the garbage but he remembers them all uh yeah he says that everyone on earth is a child of god or a child of the devil one of the two you're on one side or you're on the other here uh ron he said uh is the child of the devil and he's a child of god he goes but ron tried to kill me and ron's a little off

dan says uh he says about it he says now he's the obviously of the devil i'm of god so i'm gonna go to heaven and they said what do you think heaven is and he says he believes it's a quote 1000 year party that's it that's it that's heaven okay it's like a shit party yeah dan's mother used to visit him actually but he hasn't had a visit uh he said in 15 years as of 2004 he said three years ago his oldest son visited him on christmas with his wife besides that and he says mostly his son just looked at him trying to figure him out he could said he's looking at me like i was a rubik's cube he looked at me like there was something wrong with like i don't know like i could just slit a baby's throat and not feel bad about it for fucking 20 years he then

says quote this is the most this is like a fucking mob member and even they would be like you know he says quote i'm not ashamed about what happened it was just a matter of business you killed a fucking baby i mean i don't know how else to put it but you i don't mean to discount brenda but you killed a baby dude like a grown person people can have legitimate reasons for wanting to kill a grown person not that you should ever do it. But a baby? Pepsi shows up to my house and opens my children and looks at me and goes, it's just business. It's just business, motherfucker.

I'm never buying Pepsi again. No. Damn. Put that away, son. We're switching to Coke here. I'll drink Coke forever. Wow. So Dan has never talked to his brother about murdering his wife and daughter. I guess not.

He said, Alan once asked my mom why I wouldn't repent. There's some things you can't repent for. never talked to his brother about murdering his wife and daughter i guess not he said alan once asked my mom why i wouldn't repent there's some things you can't repent for i'm sure alan thought i was talking about an unpardonable sin what i meant is you don't repent for things that aren't wrong that wasn't wrong that's what he said that's why he didn't repent not because it was an unpardonable sin because it ain't wrong i was supposed to i was told to that's fucking crazy it is i want to hear it get crazier okay i got more crazy uh dan doesn't think he'll die in prison no uh he believes that the walls will crumble and he will emerge as the biblical prophet elijah announcing the second coming of Christ. That's what he said. Oh boy.

So they asked him, are you serious? And he said quote, I don't feel comfortable saying I know I'm Elijah but I'd be pretty surprised if I'm not. I'd be pretty surprised if I'm not. I wish I was there to hear that that's

i would have died laughing i can't talk to you anymore dude i was taking you seriously as a murderer but now you're just an asshole shocked if i'm not wow he said you could say i'm waiting patiently to see if i'm elijah uh he says i could be wrong maybe it's all just a comfortable illusion i don don't know. I'd be pretty surprised if I'm not. I mean, let's be realistic here. All the signs are pointing to fucking Elijah. I mean, this is the way it is. Somebody's right where they belong.

That's it right there. That's a man that's still way too dangerous. Oh, he is super. Oh, you want to hear how dangerous he is? It gets worse. Oh, my God. Yeah, because he can still talk to people outside with this crazy shit. He sees himself as one who will make the transition orderly so that the wheat, the children of Christ, can organize into communities of harmony while the children of the devil are pulled down root and stem from this world, he says.

After the nasty all this is over with, he said that the gods' love and a 1,000-year party can finally begin, and then the whole cycle will repeat itself again. And every 1,000 years you do that. Who's hired for that gig? Desert Noises! Yeah, Desert Noises! 1,000 years of Desert Noises. Oh, he then says that both of these groups, the children of God and the devil,

simply follow a program they cannot deviate from. For some, that may mean a mundane 9 to five existence for others killing women and children yeah that's what he said so he's who is he to do that was his path i'm supposed to do this my part he says uh he says that allude that religion is a free agency you know like you can switch religions it's an illusion pimped by religion to dupe its believers he said they use faith and other lies and secrets and deceptions to brain fuck followers into thinking they have the power to save or condemn people to hell i completely believe that but not the rest of it right just that part sounds great amen if he just said that and shut the fuck up and didn't kill any kids i'd

be like this is my kind of guy. So, Jesus Christ. He says, quote, I understand very well that my philosophy makes me sound crazy, but I try to make it as logical as I can. But I don't mind if people think I'm crazy and I know and I don't know that I'm not. But I don't think that I am. I think there's some good shit coming. God's a good motherfucker. And when he comes back, he's going to be smoking a doobie saying tired of this world well it's time to party i really believe that is that what he said

fucking quote he's a cool mother but god's quote god's a good motherfucker he's a good shit that god he's a good motherfucker and when he comes back he's gonna be smoking a doobie saying tired of this world well it's time to party fuckers let's go and i really believe that is what he said amen amen and now the desert noise is banned what the fuck and they all this is real this happened in the world oh jesus lord this might be our craziest it could be the craziest pocket robin He's certainly convinced. I mean, it's right up there with the arm test, though. This is nuts.

And Rulo. Wow. So September 2014. Yeah. Speaking of still dangerous, police. They find that two people here, Benjamin and Christy Stack. They murdered their two youngest children and possibly killed a third

with a combination of drugs, including methadone. How many letters? They're discovered on September 27th by their oldest son. The parents were found with cups of red liquid next to their bodies. This was, they killed themselves too.

They didn't just kill their children. This is a Jim Jones situation. They literally had Kool-Aid. They killed them all and took themselves out. Yeah. While the children were discovered lying

on and around the bed covered with blankets up to their necks with empty bottles of liquid methadone and boxes of cold and flu medication nearby. That's what they made

a fucking cocktail out of. The autopsy said that all five died due to drug toxicity. And obviously it's the poison. The third child's death, they couldn't figure out if it was that, but they assumed it was. But for some reason, there was a problem with the testing. Maybe choked on vomit or something. Yeah.

Well, relatives will find out what happened here. Relatives told People magazine that they suspected the stracks had killed their children and committed suicide themselves because quote they had isolated themselves from neighbors and some of the family they said that uh it had and one of the the benjamin's brother said it had been a while since ben had been to work he also said some of the changed behaviors before their death death seemed out of place and didn't make sense at the time but looking back now they make sense and we want to speak out to prevent other people from having to endure what we are enduring uh now what they did was dan was talking to them yeah uh he was uh talking to them he influenced them to kill themselves and their children according to dan

christy had a dream is what dan says christy came to him and said he had a dream about, she had a dream about him while reading the book, reading the book about them, which we'll name at the end, but there's a book about this whole situation. She was reading the book

10 years ago, had a dream about Dan, and eventually decided to reach out to him. Oh no! The book is a lot of Dan's bullshit. The book is all written

kind of through Dan's perspective. They became close friends with Dan, visiting him in state prison is a lot of dan's bullshit the book is all written kind of through dan's perspective uh they became close friends with dan visiting him in state prison on a weekly basis this couple uh the police captain in springerville said quote he's very fond of them he wanted his remains to go to them when he died okay that was in his prison will dan Dan claims that Christie's husband, Benjamin, knew Dan and Christie were in love and he didn't mind. It was okay with him that Dan and Christie were in love. Dan says he cut off his waist-length hair at her request and sent it to the family. Because later on, he ends up with all short hair.

But the Stracks, their relationship stopped in 2008 when they ended up having to plead guilty, the couple, to criminal charges, including forgery and drug possession. And they weren't allowed to visit the prison anymore at that point. So Dan and Christy exchanged letters for a while. But the correspondence stopped when Christy said she didn't believe Dan was the prophet Elijah. Now, Dan told the AP. Was it the polaroids of his dick that he sent maybe there's a dick this isn't elijah's cock i feel like elijah's cock would be vain here this seems smaller than elijah like the head on it would be formidable a little more boldness that's what i'm thinking anyway i'm just saying for me uh now dan said he hadn't talked to

them in years but he says he believes it was quote, hell on earth philosophy that led to the murder suicides. He said, quote, my insanity messes with people's lives. It's just the way it is. He also said, I'll miss them, but I'm happy for them. I believe they're in paradise now. Oh, boy. Yeah. They kill you.

Fucking jerk. Yeah. This is what I mean. And he contributed to that. And he's happy about it. He's thrilled. Yeah. This is what I mean. And he contributed to that. And he's happy about it. He's thrilled. 2015, Utah, the state legislature, adds firing squads again to the list. But only if courts determine that Utah doesn't have the cocktail of drugs needed to execute them by lethal injection.

If you're out of drugs. We can shoot them. Bring in that 300 win match. Other than that, the last person shot by firing, killed by firing squad, Ronnie Lee Gardner in 2010, and we've talked about him. I remember that. We'll talk more about him in our bonus episode. So 2017, Ron's got more appeals here. The U.S. District Judge dismissed a petition that sought to vacate his murder conviction and death sentence on the grounds they violated his constitutional rights.

I thought it didn't matter. I thought it was the, how can you have constitutional rights if they don't exist? It's not the word of God. What is he talking about? This petition alleged the death penalty was cruel and unusual punishment and said Ron Lafferty had spent years under brutal prison conditions experiencing daily trauma facing death. Yeah, that's prison. That's what you just

described there uh but the judge rejecting the claims quoted a u.s supreme court opinion saying that there's no support for the proposition that a defendant can avail himself of the panoply of appellate and collateral procedures and then complain when his execution is delayed yeah you can't yeah you play the game right yeah fucking take the consequence when you lose that's the thing that's why he was saying i don't want to play right because that way he could say at least i'm not playing so uh august 2019 is like one of his last appeals here it's like his last ditch thing this decision was in the denver uh base 10th circuit court so we're going down the line it's like supreme court's next where it was denied again. His lawyer said, quote, this was his remaining last challenges to his conviction and sentencing.

There are no other avenues I'm aware of to challenge the judgment against him. He could ask the Tenth Circuit Court to reconsider its decision or ask the full court to hear his case. But the lawyer said he'll use all his options to challenge the conviction and death sentence, vowing he'll go all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary. He says, quote, when the most severe penalty a state can impose is at stake, we look to the courts to be a safety net

to ensure that the full protections allowed by the Constitution have been met. Here, the court relied on procedural technicalities to deny Mr. Lafferty a complete appellate review of his case. Doesn't fucking matter very much. That, by the way, was August 2019. November 11, 2019,

Ron dies in prison. Really? Dies in prison. Oh, god damn it. Right? It's kind of when he needed to get shot. At 78. To shoot an old man would have been hilarious. Oh, god. He would have exploded. An old asshole, yeah. Just a dick like that. His shoulders were just like ripped open. Fucking thin skin. Yeah. What a dick. Everything would have exploded. An old asshole. Yeah, just a dick like that. His shoulders were just like ripped open.

Fucking thin skin. Yeah. What a dick. Everything would have just oozed out. Yup. That would have been great. Fucking he would have deserved this shit. Yeah, one of his attorneys said that he was mentally ill and he could never assist and

everything. She wrote that she believed his incarceration was the reason that he believed, I told you, the unseen spiritual forces reincarnated sister became possessed by an evil spirit she also says through it all mr lafferty himself never believed that he was mentally ill or incompetent one expert said that if he was guilty of faking anything he was guilty of pretending to be normal when he was not mr lafferty like other mentally ill, was not treated for his mental illness as he should have been.

Oh, that's true with a lot of people, but I don't know why this guy I don't really care so much. Sometimes it feels like you give up your rights for a lot of things, including mental health evaluations. If you open a child and a mother, maybe we don't give a fuck how sane you are. That's exactly right. Yeah, maybe we don't give a fuck how sane you are. That's that's exactly right.

He said the lawyer also said that Ron lacked any rational understanding of the legal proceedings that, quote, quote, that was not polluted by his delusion. So he thought he understood shit. She also said his execution should have been prohibited because of that. And yeah, the one of the state's attorneys said, quote, The wheels of justice turn so slowly in cases like this. It's cruel and tragic. Now that Mr. Lafferty is facing his maker, perhaps ultimate justice will be realized and there will finally be some closure for the victim's families here. And there was actually one of the family members here. Brenda's older sister, Sharon, said, quote, Our family is grateful. we feel like it's just as well that he passed on his own good you know that's a really healthy attitude he's dead i don't care how he died he's off away from me not i wanted vengeance

that's that's a healthier attitude she's not letting it eat her up inside even though it eats her up inside uh according to her ron was in a wheelchair and had a caretaker during his last year in prison. He was 78. She said she wasn't surprised he passed away. She said, I do know that he was frail and had been for some time and he had not been feeling well. I don't believe that he had been able to walk for a while. And she says she doesn't feel cheated by the fact that he escaped execution. She said, quote, I absolutely felt a huge amount of relief when I heard the news that he escaped execution she said quote i absolutely felt a huge amount

of relief when i heard the news that he had passed because i preferred he passed because i preferred that he passed peacefully than have to go through what all of us were having to go through yeah that's fucking wow that's some really healthy people man i mean really though he was in prison he was convicted of murder he was in prison and died in prison that's an execution pretty much an execution they just attrition an execution of attrition and and also there's not a man shit food bad health care terrible conditions stress he had to eat fat and sodium straight for so many years but the best part is that there's not some poor bastard that has to go to bed at night thinking i killed that guy i just had to kill that guy you need to feel bad for this dickhead all right uh so yeah there's all of that his brother dan he's still still sitting in draper

prison here and 10 years hanging out 10 7 years on recently yeah 71 going on 72 uh the book was under the banner of heaven by john crackhauer and that was the that's the big book that was written about this that's based mainly on dan's recollections and shit like that. A lot of, I mean, public shit, too, but a lot of Dan has a heavy hand in that one. That, my friends, is American Fork, Utah. That is one of the craziest fucking stories we ever had. American Fuck Utah. Fuck Utah.

Last week, in the beginning, I said, watch out next week. We have a crazy one. Don't think we don't when i say that when i say that it's extra crazy because it's always crazy when i say we have an extra crazy one we have this so it's fucking happening thank you guys so much for listening if you like the show i know how you can tell us get on apple podcast that purple icon give us five stars it really does help drive us up the charts and it helps us on the business end immensely guess what too i know you have time we can see you right now you're sitting there going what am i going to watch next on fucking hulu right put it down for two seconds and give us

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Yeah. The Aladdin in Portland has two nights of sold-out show from us. 1,200 tickets sold. They're going to have those shows. It's going to happen. Same thing with Seattle and Neptune. We'll do it. Trust us.

It'll get done they just uh they rescheduled detroit and cincinnati for august uh and also nashville's been rescheduled for july and i believe they're also working on austin and oklahoma city did those get rescheduled yet that's close to that's almost there so keep an eye on the website and keep listening back to us get all your tickets right now because now that if they're trust me when people go out they're going to want to go out when they get out again so uh tickets should fly off the shelves it's going to go fast so do that get your tickets right now and i assure you we're going to throw down with how long we've sat oh it's going to be good stuff angry about it it's going to be good we're going to have a really good time good fucking shit also listen to ps i hate this movie every

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from a few people that, you know, had to cancel their Patreon because they lost their job or they got laid off and they would email us apologizing. It's like, no, no, no. Like, I'm going to be mad at them. Yeah, no, don't do that.

You never have to apologize their name's not there i'll be so mad and we're gonna call them but i mean they they you know they feel they really feel bad and because they're we all feel like a family and so they feel terrible and please don't feel bad if you have don't do things that you need to take care of in your life guys i mean we'll be here for you when you get done take care of you thank you kids take care of you first if you're if you're doing real well and everything's fine, throw us a couple fucking bucks, you cheap prick. If you're making extra money in this, you better get...

Hey, toss it over. So, thank you for doing that. I told you that PayPal is... What is it? It's... I said it already. I already said that. All right, good deal. With that said, without further ado, the only thing that would make me feel any better about my life right now is to hear the names of the greatest goddamn people in the world.

Jimmy, hit me with the producers. Hit me with them hard like your belief in scripture. Christy Donahue, Joe Bonacore, Isabel Griffith, Derek and Lavanya, Lavinia Adams, Jacqueline Hall, Guido Van Veen, Marcus Polite, oh no, Janine Fennell, that's what that is, Tanya Volinec, Cynthia Watson, no, that's Dotson, damn it, Cecilia Carter, oh, this is going to go bad today, Melissa Turner. Danielle Butcher. Thank you guys so much. Thank you guys. We can't do this without you guys, truly.

Quickly, Walt Murray. He's been listening to us for like three years. He lost his mom. And he would go visit her. She's been battling. But he'd visit her. And then they'd talk about the shows and stuff together. And he would make her laugh.

So thank you, Walt. That's so cool. Thanks for having us be part of your journey. Thank you. That means the world to us yeah man and then lonnie hall lost her pop sorry lonnie friends hang in there uh then we have joanne potter uh damn it damn it damn it uh janna holbrook and uh the rest of our producers this week are kathy this is going to be long kathy mccallar mccallier uh fiona holl Hollier, Grant Brand, Isaac Stemple, Danny Tapkin up in Minnesota. Thank you.

Taylor Gay, Aunt Rios, Shane Messer, Josh Thomas. No, Toombs. Sorry. Christopher Valdez-Frank, Keely Marshall, Tamara B., Donna Thornton, Elizabeth Jones, Talia Shit. What is that? Talia... Shit, what is that? Talia Bruin. Jared with no last name.

Sarah Schmidt. Amanda Dixon. Ashley Grenier. Nicole Ayers. Madison Grant. Farrah Kahn. Brett Trace. Lexi with no last name.

Faye K. Garner. Craig McLoughlin. Richard Tower. Joe with no last name. Ashley Keeler. I said that, I think. No, I didn, Joe with no last name, Ashley Keeler. I said that, I think. No, I didn't.

Brianna Worth, Rebecca Beckinston, Christine Merrick, Joyce Lewis, Kate Falconer, Riley Yetter, Laura Malone, Tony Dodson, Mark Davis, Liam Trainorristin uh appear or what is that appa gear appa gear app here i think i'm so sorry uh app car app gar alex lee no g is that what is i'm sorry john john quinlan sarah no yeah sarah jesson uh brian tucker cody walker mazel uh paul steinbeck Sarah Jessen, Brian Tucker, Cody Walker, Mazel, Paul Steinbach, Andrea Rowe, Kent with no last name, Zoe Otway, Josh Guido, Victoria Stoddard, Mikey with no last name, Jody Tristan, Aaron with no last name, And that's A-I-R-E-N. Rebecca Smith. Aaliyah Hadfield. Lily Whitaker. Rachel Presley. Evelyn Weaver. Michelle Smith.

Brian Killian. Brian Haynes. Tasha. Tash Rossi. Gay Fosh. Stephanie Marie. Erica. No last name. Matt Pope. Larissa Milhouse, I think, Elizabeth Rankin, Lenita Buchanan, Colin Weaver, Adam Clark, Anthony with no last name, Patrick Griffith, Amber Bonnet. Will Licka Wilson. Probably Will Licka. April. April Beppanay.

Beppendent. Dependent. Dependent. I don't know, April. Crystal. Christopher Bryant. She. No, Shea.

Shea Beaton. Saint Goudry. Gwadry. S.T. Gwadry. I don't know what I did. Stephen Barella. Julie Whedon.

Andy. Annie Rose. Sorry, Annie. I swear I'll get through all this, Gerald Litzler, Sean Sweeney, Kendall Walitzen, oh fuck, Caitlin Pawlek, Christina Bowman-Sanders, Deanna, no, Dean, Deanne, Deanne Flora, Doug Schroeder, Taylor Milloway, Drew Shanks, Sunil Mukherjee. No, I'm sorry, Sunil. Maros, or was that Marcus?

Sarah Chapman, Ryan Wallum, Marshall Yarraris, Megan Amon, Jenny Orden, Chris Etter, Tracy Arette. No. Zach Kipfer. Tressa Barik. Adam with no last name. Ryan Sullivan. John Boyardi.

Jeff Boyardi. Oh, I got you. I see your pun. Melissa Delaney. Jason Foreman. Oh, is that Dilap? I'm sorry. Keith Kangas.

Zach Keister. Oh, maybe. I think. I don't want to call him an asshole. Amy Williamson, Hunter Spendlove, Peggy Summons, Simmons, Nicole Palfey, Randy Cantrell, Nicole Fordson, Artemis Gores, Alyssa Maker, Macer, Drew Meismer, Grover M., Latoya Redmond, Tanyell Headley, Monica Fitzgerald, Tom Kohler, Alyssa McGee, Tyler Hack, Carolyn Davis, Courtney Murphy, Heather White, Misty Cooper, Eckartina, Knova, Julia Stacherski, Dylan Leahy, uh kazika canova julia shtikaski no stacker jersky uh dylan lahey uh sean mead daniel garrig greg madribelli no nick nick ryard uh caitlin eisen brit heath nicole bell furker uh alima mitchell alan uh elena elena bloomdahl uh beanie beanie bro cosplay oh beanie beanie uh beanie boo cosplays god damn it doug sixpence oh song sixpence is

that sixpence nine is that the group i don't sixpence i don't know something sixpence send and i think it's a band i hope it's them i want it to be them thank you probably not uh lisa newman kira donahue christine duncanson uh duncanson uh denise yard madison with no last name brett sloan nicole bethel graham moore daisy with no last name kimberly jay uh swana kivara kara probably not i'm sorry bennett lost in the weeds i know bennett williams harry wieger uh amanda schmidt leon lean lean fantasy uh megan wegener wegener uh uh avery christiansen megan no last name becca peterson peters damn it adai collette april washington erica woning wenig oh no it's not zach zach pearson rosie., Dean Robinson, Tom Blake, Mattai, Emily Morgan, I can get that one out.

Red Black, 77, Miranda Stewart, Lisey Roser, William Legg, Gabriel Bretska, Savannah Martin, Taylor Klein, Jen Fernandez, bretzka uh savannah martin taylor klein jen fernandez cory montgomery lisa spiller uh abel sandow emily shepherd cassie with no last name brad dunifin uh don arden arden boyd uh caitlin rasmussen she's a cna taking care of some of the most vulnerable people on the thank you so much for doing that. johnson kathy samuels ali whales katherine hume haman uh gwendolyn lloyd vince uh opi san opi opi opi opi to sono i think gwendolyn's last name is lloyd with one l you would be very happy about that there's not two like the fucking the liars uh holly hennessey no has hessie nikki redmond corson jesse ryan uh jake kokish michelle with no last name, Tina York, Wyatt Deckard, Mike Larson, Shisha Permenter, Chantel Bracey, Allison Ryan, I said that, Jen Atis, no, Sean Atis, or Atis, Rebecca Blanchard, Alex Johnson, Jessica Schweitzer, Yumi, Carrie Gines, or Gines? Probably Gines, right? Alex Johnson, I said that.

Brianna Doherty, Saskia Vigel, Fiona Taylor, Kelly Rummel, Nina Korzeniewski, I think, Danielle Buescher, Sean with no last name, Jen Seavers, Chase with no last name, Regina Lee, Galen Harris, Sarah Gibbs, Duncan Layton, Laura Schwartz, Jessica S., Mike Blemant, what is that? Bovine? No, it's not. Michael, I'm so sorry. I fucked your last name up. Aaron Hall, Matt Behor, Bozer.

I like Behor. Dines with no last name, whatever that is. Damon Motz, Hillary Skinner, Stephanie with no last name, Baselton, Noring. I like Bahor myself. Ken Lippert, Adam Apple, Jennifer Copeland, Jordan White, Leah Smith, Jacob Russell, Tony Rowland, I think. I think that's right. Jordan Bennett, of course. Kathleen Kite, I think that is, or Kellite. I put a whole bunch of letters together. I don't know what they are.

So did whoever made her last name. know what they are so did whoever made her last name nick rundy summer for rendy for fern dilly uh andrea white jared crooks uh ola sir sir niecky uh jessica higgins victoria brick bolick uh lefane bradford uh aaron miller megan smith matt walt wilkins rebecca with no last name karen karen chalene k red 827 chris robinson len Lenore Bell-McBetha, Jordan Herringer, God damn it, Heriger, Leroy Traver, that's not right either, I'm so sorry, Lurie, I think, Shawnee Chambers, Alexander Cawthorn, Lindsay Ann Ahn, a line, Ryan Schultz, Matt Sledge, Evelina,

Evelyn Virginia Hogan, Thomas Pinnacone, Jason Krustowski, Judd Hall, Devin Axtman, what is that, Brooke, Brooke Groening, Chase Grotsky, Aidan Smith, Kelly

Clow, Ty Jaager, Mercy Silver, Cindy Payne, Cathedral Burton, Jessica Wolkowski, Alpha Janelle Watson, The Cambridge, Cambridgeshire Goatman. I'm not sure what that is. Jamie Fedora, Peter Mazzali, God damn it. Laura Feeder, Peter Mazzali, God damn it, Ilma de Blasio, Tamiya Ames, Regina Clipton, Katie Jeffs, Naley Bennett, Ben Cole, Joe Larson, Joshua Denton, Brittany Peckler, Ryan Thompson, William Dunlap, Allison Hinkle, Adrian Riffle, Brittany Herrig, Dylan Vlavalli, Tim Lawrence, Eric P., Emma Drury, Eric Rhodes, David Fronicki, Donna Thurman, Joe Tosillo, Tiffany Smith, Mindcase, Mindy Bond, Soraya with no last name, Mike Vanus, Jeff Dahlke, Jenny Blacker, Lisa Wood, Kristen Kriminger, Kevin, no, Helen Jay, Kimberly Ann Cunningham, Joe Jose, Aaron Gue, Harrison Montgomery, Colette Bolera, Livuanda, no, Livuandi, Liquandi,

I'm bad at this, Alicia Wolf, Henrik, Heinrich Uberschleiser, Candida, Megan Debus, Homestretch, Rachel Morales, Nicole with no last name, Benjamin Anderson, Luis Garcia, Carl Griffin, James Oshner, Laura Carlin, Angela Ramali, Malik Cooley, Rain is not a bow. I don't know.

Rain, not a bow. Got it. Okay. I'm on board. David with no last name, Jay Shouse, Tyler Russell, Tommy Marlowe, Jamie Brown, Shania with no last name, Esther Kudrow, Daniel Christ, Kelsey Hedlund, Chantel Kemp, Andrew Snow, Juergens Krags, I think David Goddard, Ole Gardner, William Keller, Jessica would know the last name, BK Britt, Ryan Russell, Danielle Barbie, Jamie would know the last name, Tammy would know the last name, Andrew Hollier, Kerry Britt, A. Douglas, Courtney Friend, Ryan Noonan, Matt and Angie Cluess, Kelsey Rodriguez, Brian

McCann, Nancy with no last name, Samantha Porch, Keegan King, Jamie Aycock, Bianca Reinbold, Kathy Chong, Nancy with no last name, River Rubinolt, Chad Wilson, Melissa Herring, Jennifer Reilly, Tyler Gardner, Jay Gillis, I think, Andrew Bryan, Kyle Francis, Jack Tapping, no, that's Topping, Andrea Beckman, Mike Shanahan, probably not, Miss Shapin' Maple, Monique Kahn, Nguyen, Ted Cyrus, Aaron with no last name, Aaron Doty, Ben the, what is that? The Wombat Russell. He's probably a wrestler. Quinn Riley, C. Van Buskirk, Ron, no, Ben, Ben Beatty, Beatty, Shea Smith, no, Shea Mitchell. I'm sorry. I don't know how I got Smith out of Mitchell because I'm dumb. Megan Ozebrak, Ozebrak, Ozebrak, Jonathan Phipps, Bradley Dooley, Patrick Sweeney, Andrea Acosta, Taylor with no last name, Greg Otto, Eric Klein, Crystal G, Tony Sandlin, Connor Forbes, Chris Spackler, that's gross,

gross uh brendan no that's brenda zapowski damn it le sissy nanny uh aaron silva joey mcjack joey mcintosh probably not the one from the band uh the new kids on the block that his name yeah oh you're right who likes him more than james nobody yeah josh agalor nathan spencer jeffrey Osterberg, Alex with no last name, Reverie Novell, Revel Fowler, Derek Miller, Byers, what is that? Bars Kahula? Probably not. God damn it. Kylan Page, TL, Sarah Delaney, Michaela Massengill, Wes Groette, Larry Duffy, Denise Grimhall, I thought I was closer to the end,

Groet, Larry Duffy, Denise Grimhall. I thought I was closer to the end. Kaziniak, Victoria Gabay, Summer Montero, Montero, Eric, what did I do? Erica, oh my God. Carbonell, oh, that Eric Carbonell. Jonathan Ray Kessner, James Harris, Larry Demas, Matty Kozlowski. No, Klonzinski, Klonzinski. Something Polish. Rebecca Schmidt, Ashley Vio, Rach withowski, no, Klonzinski, Klonzinski. Something Polish.

Rebecca Schmidt, Ashley Vio, Rach with no last name, Carrie Kirshner, Bug, Mod Author, Darlene James, Danielle Cassidy, Stphine, Stephanie. Stphine. Valentine, that's why. Stphine. Put Stephanie next to Valentine. Try to say it fast.

If you don't go Stffine, you wouldn't. Sarah Fudge, Tim Plummer, Liz Vasquez. Thanks, Liz. Thanks, Reagan Shockley. Louise Rayfield, Wallace Woodwork, Daniel Einariski. No, Einerson. Erickson. I don't know what that is.

Saskia Shepard. Mary with no last name. Peyton Meadows. Andrew Dittmer. Dittmer. Dettmer. Saskia Shepard. Mary with no last name. Peyton Meadows. Andrew Dittmer. Dittmer. Dettmer. Jamie Kozurga. Daisy Parker.

Michael Stefani. Lucy Stacey. Mike Tolbert. Probably not that one. Oh, that's Holbert. Sorry. Allison Plant. Joe C.

Libby Ritchie. Danielle Wheeler. Daniel Wheeler. Sorry. James Marder Rick Beebe Henry Stone Louis Tidrick Tiffany Cronquist

Lori Gravelin Charles Buchel Sean Glennon Miranda with no last name Brandon Drake Logan Wells Johnny Ramey Amanda Knight

Gary Howard thank you Gary I appreciate it buddy he's got a podcast he started what else do we got here? Destine Hanratty? Destin. Destiny Hanratty. Jill King. Diane DeVall.

Amber Walgren. Carl Kusher. What is that? Damn it. Manaset Chata? No. It's Manmeat Chata. I don't know what that means. Somebody's fucking with me, maybe. Jody Settle. Daily Vet chatter oh i don't know what that means it could be a somebody's fucking with me maybe uh jody settle daily uh daily daily vet bonilla uh diane devol uh reena taylor kit kat darren oh karen

karen edging um fuck robin anderson centerfire cigar rests janice hill uh kim hegeman hegeman sarah mitchell sarah no that's sam Williams, Amber Loviere, David Munyon, Nicole Beatty, Brandon Neff, John, no, yeah, John Allard, Catherine Hillman, also Foy, what is that? God, Alice Foy, Zach Kingley, I don't know what I did. Jackie Sukup, Susanna Platt, Steveatt steve uh melon oh that's steve chanel hey that's what that is uh adonna tim timakis uh mike michael holmes kyle dunphy morbid uh laura yarnell uh what did i do ben coons uh brooke kale page sand sand sandness

uh crystal hewitt brendan ables roberta byer molly arabio or avalo jude kendall stacy turner and mama needs comfy and of course all of our patreon supporters you guys are fucking great thank you everybody thank you thank you thank you thank you we just can't say it enough because we really do appreciate it we know you guys go out of our way for us. Out of your way for us. Out of your way for us. Wow. Get out of our way for us. For us, you bastards. And I am going to keep, we here, me and Jimmy are going to keep going out of our way for you

and do as much as we possibly can to get you through all this shit. It is making all worth it. That's why we're doing so much bonus and everything like that. Thank you, thank you so much. Jimmy, how could they get a hold of you to thank you? It doesn't happen very often, but you can find me at wisdom sucks. W H I S M a N sucks on Twitter and Instagram and Jimmy Wissman on Facebook,

which is my name. That's fine. And you can tell me horrible things about myself that I already knew. Where can they find you? You can find me over at Jimmy P is funny or just copy and paste my last name or my whole name from the show description. And you can find me that way jimmy p is funny or just copy and paste my last name or my whole name from the show description and you can uh find me that way it's a lot easier and you uh rarely thank me too a lot of people not that i need thank you but most of the time it's like i don't know what it

is they think of me as like the like ah he's all right he's fine yeah he could take it he's fine he seems stable or whatever like no i'm just as fucked up as anybody else. So be nice to me, too. I got problems. I just fucking, I mask it with aggression, so it's a different thing. You don't realize it's there. Maybe that, well, I don't know. Who knows?

Either way. Thank you, guys. People just like to say mean things sometimes. Yeah, that's all right. I enjoy reading those. If they're funny. Before I delete them. Yeah.

And not fucking respond. No. Oh, shit. You're you're gonna bait me into fighting with you on the internet shit no you think you are you'll get i'll i'll fucking trash you once and then leave you alone i'll i'll drop the fucking mic on you i'll tell you that much you might get one word uh and then and then i'm out bye that said everybody we're gonna keep coming back week after week you cannot cannot stop us ever, really. I'll tell you that.

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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