Small Town Murder - #188 - A Garbage Disposal Full Of Secrets in Corcoran, Minnesota

Episode Date: September 10, 2020

This week, in Corcoran, Minnesota, a seemingly happy home is disrupted by the addition of a mother-in-law, who could actually be spawned from hell. Her constant interference, mixed with strange rumors of a very odd interfamily relationship bring things over edge, and into the realm of crazy. An absolutely horrific attempt at the disposal of the body leaves very little room for benefit go the doubt! This is a wild ride!! Along the way, we find out 15 is often too young to meet your spouse, that your mother isn't always right, and that your garbage disposal has its limitations! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Corcoran, Minnesota, an unusual relationship between mother and son results in a brutal crime and a clumsy effort

to cover it up and a life lesson worth remembering. The garbage disposal cannot solve all of your problems. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigalloo i'm here with my co-host i'm jimmy wissman thank you folks so much for joining us this week on another absolutely insane edition of small town murder it's been a great it's been wild lately so if you've been missed any episodes i suggest catching up because it's been absolutely crazy and we have raising hair raising and then hair losing and hair everything it's been a

disaster all sorts of crazy stuff so check that all out and before we get into that we have a deep one today so we want to quickly up front just uh if you have not done it yet please apple podcast the purple icon they help a lot we have no idea why but give us five stars doesn't matter what you say say anything you. Say what your favorite temperature is. Oh. That's perfect. What your ideal outside temperature is. Outside or inside?

Outside. Outside. Because inside is 74. Well, outside is going to say like 75. So I mean. Like 72 inside. It's good there. So either way, it doesn't matter.

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do that or if you want to be a producer and just have your name mispronounced by jimmy and if you have an italian name you'll get a whole new one he's terrible with those so if you want to just do that you can do that over at paypal using our email address which is crime and sports at gmail.com quickly quickly disclaimer this is a comedy show right it really is it's a comedy show and it's not to make fun of murder that's the thing that's this is the way we process it for us it's easier to deal with dark stuff with some jokes so that's what we do and what we make sure we don't do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims families why because we're assholes but we're not scumbags

that's it that's how that works and murder they get it plenty yeah that's how this works because we have no recourse we're comedians if some murder what are we going to do about it we can't do a thing about it except we can mock them unmercifully for a couple hours that's something we can do and let's do that today right so if that sounds good to you excellent perfect if not i mean honestly if you don't ever want jokes in your true crime, maybe this isn't for you. It's possible. But I would give it a shot anyway. Just don't complain later on that you were duped and it's horrible and all that sort of thing.

They make jokes. Well, yes, we're telling you that up front. Giving you fair warning. And I think you should sit back, relax, and shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. All right. Let's go on a trip. Yes.

Let's go. Let's all right let's go on a trip yes let's go let's go let's go we are coming from missouri last week where uh jesus was a apparently a lousy defense attorney but in the end not a bad appeals lawyer it worked out for this guy so what are you gonna do uh this week we're going up to minnesota i know we've been to minnesota recently there's probably 18 episodes ago i think it was saint cloud minnesota but know we've been to minnesota recently probably 18 episodes ago i think it was saint cloud minnesota but um there's so much for summary i don't know what is going on in minnesota you people i don't know if it's the snow the cold the the niceness right you just get inside and you snap and start killing each other i think i don't know what it is but there's some

wild stuff happening up there and so we keep ending up back up there. And today we're in Corcoran, Minnesota, which is in southeastern Minnesota. It's a suburb of Minneapolis. So like last week, it was like an hour and a half from Minneapolis. Not last week. Last Minnesota episode was like an hour and a half from Minneapolis. This is about 30 minutes to downtown Minneapolis. So it's just like right out in the suburbs. St. Cloud, Minneapolis, and that's about it, right?

There's some other stuff. Well, Minneapolis and St. Paul. And then there's, you know, but up north it gets well up north. It's tundra basically. So I don't think there's a lot going on up there. It's dicey in Minnesota. It's dicey. Yeah.

You're going to get a few towns and a lot of tundra. So that's how that works. And this is about four hours down to des moines iowa about an hour to saint cloud which was our i think it was a teenage vampire cult was that issue i think was in saint cloud yeah uh this is in hennepin county uh the area code is 763 they have a motto no right on their website there and it's i don't it's silly because it's right outside minneapolis quote a hidden gem waiting to be discovered it's not real hidden not real hidden or maybe the second one kind of

addresses that actually uh the second one this one i really had to dig for uh quote we've seen it not that impressed yeah so i don't know that's that's the other one there and now history one of uh they have a story yeah of like one of the first residents and how they made their way through town that i found so you could tell history through this idiot i don't know if he was an idiot but we'll call him one here joseph moran was born in montreal in 1810 it's close to moron it's close that's what i mean what am i supposed to do with that exactly i'm only human he went to michigan in 1840 and then ended up working in the shipyards in Lake Superior. And then he got married in 1844.

And he started for Minnesota in 1845 with a birch bark canoe accompanied by his wife, following the Black River for 15 days in a birch bark canoe with his wife. And also, just imagine the fighting in that thing. good lord okay imagine spouse to make it out of maple i mean just either way gender's not important two spouses in a birch bark canoe for 15 fucking days at some point are you sure this is the right way right are you positive it's been it's been two weeks man that a week ago you said that shit a week ago I know you said it would take a while, but this fucking long? Come on. You did not say made of birch.

You said birch bark. I thought, yeah. What, you just husked a tree? I thought that was just a finish. It's a color. That's the wrapping. It's a nice color, a finish maybe, whatever epoxy you're going to put on the outside. This is bullshit.

Angry. So that would be just fighting. So they ended up, they also had a few other things packed in the canoe. So every night they'd have to get out of that thing, pull all the shit off. What a nightmare. So they ended up, went to the St. Croix River, which they reached in a day, and they followed it to the Mississippi River, then to St. Paul, where they were there for

11 years and then moved to corcoran in 1856 built a home and had 11 children sweet fuck yeah 11 yeah which was like normal back just pump them out yeah which is wild just well i mean half of them are gonna die so half of them are gonna die before they're seven. So you got to have a lot just in case. That's a lot of pent up frustration all the time. It's worse than the canoe trip. Can you imagine, too, though? You have 11 kids because you figure on you figure on half of them dying back then and then none of them die. Now you have 11 kids. You're like you and your wife are sitting in bed one night and you're like, I'm having three.

Listen, Betty, I don't take this the wrong way and i'm not a bad guy and i really do love the children but i didn't think all 11 of them would live i really didn't i'm gonna be honest with you can you believe they made it they made it um i'm thinking maybe a trip out into the wilderness and uh we come home with like six seven of them what do you say i thought all of our good luck was used when we floated for 14 fucking days on a tree husk. Made it somehow. And somehow these kids keep just living. They keep living.

Just keep breathing in and out. I'll go over. I'll look at them while they sleep sometimes and in and out. There it goes. Never stops. Fucking stops. The town was settled in 1855. So this guy, the Morin guy, had moved there like a year later.

It was organized in 1855. So this guy, the Morin guy, had moved there like a year later. It was organized in 1858. The city was named after Patrick B. Corcoran, who was the first schoolteacher, merchant, and postmaster of the town, which seems like too many jobs. Same name as the prison, too. Yeah, Corcoran, yeah. But how many jobs do you have? Schoolteacher, so that takes up your whole day. Right. And you still got time to deliver shit?

You're a merchant, so I don't know how you sell shit while you're teaching school. Hold on, kids. Wait a second. Eight plus four. Wait a second. Yeah, if you want that in a size 12. Right. Johnny, hold on one second with your question about algebra.

I got this guy on the line for a pair of wading boots, so I really got a lot going on. Unless he's a merchant of education and he sells that shit oh shit you want stamps too fuck jesus christ 12 plus 12 that'll be five bucks kids did you hear that that's your lesson in math today he just mixes it all in one very talented man you're saying maybe he's a merchant like he's selling his selling yeah i'll tell your kid yeah the answer to these questions for five bucks or a blow job whatever you want from the kid not from you from the kid disgusting so the first school was a 12 by 16 log house yay and it was uh built by corcoran there Yeesh. Yay. And it was built by Corcoran there.

He was the first schoolmaster. It was built in the winter of 1857, and his first class had 16 kids in it. That's a lot. Yeah. You could cram them in there. 12 by 15? 12 by 16. 12 by 16.

That's small. That's a shitload of kids in there. Yeah. If you think about it, by 16. Right. That's one kid per foot. You got no room. Don't you fucking move. No. And then where's... And then also, too, he's got kids in there. Yeah. If you think about it, by 16. Right. That's one kid per foot. You got no room. Don't you fucking move.

No. And then where's he? And then also, too, he's got all his racks for his, you know, Slim Jims and beef jerkies and all the impulse buy shit up by the counter. It's a lot going on. You know, the tiny flashlight slash screwdriver. And then the P.O. Boxes are on one wall.

So you got people. You got to leave room for those people to come in. It's really complicated. This is busy. It's busy. So then he opened a general store, which started in a log house, again. It was on the west side of town. This guy was originally from Ireland and moved to the U.S. in 1847.

Christ. Moved here and said, let's set up shop. It's just cold enough for me. With this fucking accent, too. Oh, my God. Yeah. Wow. People.

I thought people talked crazy in ireland but wow this is this accent is have you heard these this is wild he's telling his wife and shit he's like wow um so it was incorporated in 18 or 1948 finally incorporated officially as a town took 100 years ago yeah it took almost 70 years ago. It was ranked by niche.com. It is ranked in the list of best places to raise a family. It is number 4,330. I don't even know why you go that deep into the list, really. Why not stop after 25?

At that point, the list is the other way. You're going down. There's not 5,000 good places. Now it's one of the worst. No, it's five there's not five thousand good places one of the worst no it's just bad terrible so the reviews of this town people seem to enjoy it they seem to like it here and uh i don't know i found reviews and they're all pretty positive here's a five star review i mean and it's basic they all say the same thing quote i really like corcoran it's a small it's small compared to the other cities around it, but the people are nice here.

So, I mean, that's good. Did he write that about Corcoran, the town, or about the prison? Because it's the same thing. Or just the state of Minnesota. It's small here, but the people are generally nice. They leave me alone. That's pretty much anywhere in Minnesota you go, you go. I mean, it feels small.

Even Minneapolis, you're like, it's small for a major city, but the people are so damn nice it's just okay they're just nice people yeah so i found a four star here just a little not completely satisfied with this experience quote it's a great place to live but since there isn't much to do that is super close you have to find things to do yourself which isn't necessarily bad. No. That's you live in a small town. That's called that's called a small town. Use your imagination. Yeah.

There's more stuff to do. More people would be there and it wouldn't be a small town. It's kind of how it fucking works in terms of everything. And here's a three star. This is the worst one I could find. They are not completely satisfied here. I quote, I love the small town feeling Corcoran has. We don't have the urgent need to develop here because everything you could ask for is right next door in Maple Grove. Thank fuck for that.

I mean, we all need a Maple Grove by us. This allows us to have a good relationship with our neighboring city and sustain our way of community as well as keeping farms open and less land developed. I love the opportunities that are provided for the community to get together, such as our Hobby Beekeeping Association and our Summer Kids Soccer Program. People fuck with bees for fun? As a hobby. No. Well, I mean, that's something I feel like you need to know how to do.

Yeah. It's not a hobby. No. You know, fuck it. That's like, I'm going to train and do this. It's like electricity. I don't want any. Yeah. Nobody's a hobbyist electrician because you'll get killed. It's not a hobby. No. You know, fuck it. That's like, I'm going to train and do this. It's like electricity. I don't want any. Yeah.

Nobody's a hobbyist electrician because you'll get killed. It's not safe. First hand knowledge. I'll tell you what, if there are bees in some sort of electric box, we don't go anywhere fucking near it. Is that the crazy? That's probably. That's horrifying.

That's the most horrifying thing in the world. Oh, God, Jesus. I don't know what would be more horrifying. Bees in a fucking electric box. A guy popping out going like, hey, wait, you got like a light from a meth pipe? Right. That'd be the only bees electricity and like open source. There's a rust on the end of his fucking needle.

Got a light, man. Coming out, you squirting blood out of a fucking hypodermic. That's worse than the bees in the fucking 220 voltage. Jesus Christ. Bees are horrifying horrifying i don't want anything to do with that fuck no they're scary you can't you can't reason with them no they don't even fly straight they're all these different jesus christ i can't even like a dog doesn't do that a dog comes out with their friends and be like you get the front i'll get no no they just

all go crazy yeah you don't know what to do fucking nuts no reasoning can't offer them a treat and it's nothing so uh population of this, it grew a lot from it stayed the same for 100 years, just 1500 people about and then more than doubled between 1970 and 1980 when people would, I guess, were fleeing Minneapolis. I don't know why, but it seems fine now. I can't imagine it was worse then. But either way, people now but either way people now 5671 people now so still not even 6 000 people not bad at all good size it's yeah it's not not a big town up nine

percent since 1990 so it's been growing more males than females here which is kind of the opposite median age is slightly older 43 and a half years old a lot of people that are 45 to 54 and a lot of kids so it seems like people moved there when they were 35 and had kids and now they live there with the 12 year old kid that seems to be from the stats and old people they don't leave they die there so there's a lot of like 65 plus also so uh the marriage rate is way higher here this is like a kind of a family kind of town from what i can gather statistically anyway it's usually 50 50 on the married here it's 68 that's a shitload of i mean so a good amount of people are unhappy here and i know that's not a marriage joke saying

68 are unhappy but at least half of those people aren't happy gotta be right that's what i mean so you figure that's that's a lot man that is like 34 percent of the population is walking around muttering how many relationships you ever seen where both of them are like thrilled that's what i mean yeah very rare 34 percent of the population at least is walking around fucking i can't believe he's fucking dead yeah damn fucking every goddamn day with this shit oh and you do that well of course it's fucking not course your mother doesn't fucking do that 34% of the population maybe this is not a safe town who knows so a lot more

married with kids are here that's kind of standard I guess with the marriage so it kind of goes like that less single people more married people. Race of this town, pretty white, let's be honest here. 89% white.

It's Minnesota. 0.2% black. That is very, very little black people here. 4.3% Asian, which is almost the national average, which Minneapolis is chock full of Asian people. A lot of Asian people there. And they're doing well there. 5.6% Hispanic. So it's pretty white.

And I saw, I found where it's broken down into the whiteness. Yeah. So 36% of the people here are German. Oh, boy. Yeah. 15% are Norwegian, 8% Swedish, 7% Irish. Like the whitest white. Yeah. These are blonde people that are working. These are blonde farm people with childbearing hips is what we're looking at here.

So 55% of the people here are religious, but it's mainly kind of Catholic, Lutheran. It's a little mixture. Lutherans are Catholic is actually the most with 19%, and then Lutheran with 14 percent and 1.5 percent Jewish. What? Oh, my God. Have fun. Nagila. Nagila.

Nagila. I don't know the words. Hey, yay. We haven't been able to. I almost. So I watched Wedding Crashers and they sing that in the movie. And I had the weddings.

Yeah. I had the, the, uh, subtitles on obviously cause we do that like a fucking psycho. And I was like, I'm going to learn these words. They don't even do them. They don't even do it. They don't even get, no. They just have little like music notes. It says Hava Nagila and that's it.

Music notes and around. They know as much as you know. See, I'm trying guys guys i don't know so 63 politics here this is in the whole county that's not really representative is more of a conservative town but the county was 63 democrat because minneapolis is there so yeah it's a difference of city there 28 republican almost nine percent independent which is a lot unemployment rate is low but we don't really know what it is at the moment. But before everything went crazy this year, it was 3.2%.

Median household income here is excellent. Usually it's about $57,000 in the rest of the country. Here, $102,708. Holy Christ. That's amazing. That's great. The cost of living is a little bit high, but there's a lot of manufacturing and construction going on. They must be well-paying jobs here.

Like, all of the over $75,000 a year demographics are high. Over $200,000 a year is like double the amount of people make that than normally. Minnesotans do well, man. They're doing well up there, it seems like, from at least this place is. Anybody that I've ever known that lived in Minnesota was doing very well. Yeah well yeah that's true and i've known a couple of snowbirds that have houses here too they have multiple fucking houses there's a lot of there's a lot of minnesota plates that's crazy driving too slow down the freeway in the wrong lane here trust me right around yeah november yeah driving in the left lane 48 miles an hour you know get the fuck out of the

fucking road i'm gonna kill slide you just passed said 65. How are you still doing this to me? Idiot. You pasty asshole. When we're in Minnesota, they're great. But then when they come here, they're like, no. Go back and be great. You don't belong in the sun.

Okay? You're not allowed to just go back. Come for spring training or something and then leave like the Chicago people. So, yeah, the median or the cost of living here, 100, is regular average. Here it's 118. So it's a little bit high, and that is mostly housing, which is a 152. Oh, shit. Oh, yeah.

Median home cost here, 352,600 bucks. Oh, my. That is pricey. 300 grand. That's a little bit pricey, I would say, for the housing. Everything else is pretty average, except for health care, which is low cost of that. But if maybe you need to go to Minnesota and take in the cold and take a deep breath and some Arctic air, we have for you the Corker in Minnesota real estate report. Your average two bedroom rental here goes for about 1660 bucks which is on par with the housing cost it's much steep it is in the houses it's really hard to find there's no like trash

house i couldn't find any like oh that house is a piece of shit so it's a 110 grand here that really doesn't exist it's all pretty nice i found a four-bedroom, two-bath, 2,014-square-foot house. It's nice. It's a nice family house. Decent. I mean, 2,000 square feet's good, but not... It's a lot. It's big, but it's not like a mansion or anything.

$309,900 for that, though. So you're going to pay for it. I found a four-bedroom, two-bath, so same as the first. 3,130 square feet, so a thousand square feet more really nice big yard you know woods behind it yeah it looks like a nice place your kids run around in the lawn 475,000 bucks though shit i was like holy shit that is that's pricey yeah and then i found a four bedroom, six bath tea bowl for every b-hole. Hell yeah. God damn it. 4,840 square foot.

Beautiful. Wow. The back of the house is gorgeous. It's got this beautiful pool with a big water slide that goes in. It's fucking. In Minnesota. In Minnesota. So the, I don't know, you can use it for like a week, 10 days maybe.

They got so much money they don't give a shit. Yeah, those 10 days you can use it though. I'm telling days maybe so much money they don't give a shit yeah those 10 days you can use it though i'm telling you gorgeous 830 grand shit so look out for that it's a little pricey there you better heat that pool that's maybe they do i would assume a lot of the pools there because otherwise literally you're you're using it a week a year what the fuck are you doing it's gonna be real cold the rest of the time. That is just showing your dick to your neighbor. That's what that is. I got so much money, this doesn't fucking matter.

I will piss this money away. Yeah, Jesus. Things to do in this town. There's a couple of things. One of them you're really going to enjoy. Well, the first one you might like, too. Corcoran Country Days, D-A-Z-E. Oh, no.

Oh, yeah. Hosted by the Northwest Area Jaycees in the city of Corcoran. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Hosted by the Northwest Area JCs in the city of Corcoran. Oh, boy. Oh, boy, yeah. Softball tournament. Oh, come on, Jimmy. You don't want to have a softball tournament. A bags tournament.

Oh, cornhole. Is that cornhole? Yeah. I figured that was cornhole. Of course it is. Bags. It's everything drinking, because Minnesotans love drinking beer. If they could figure out how to bowl outside they would

that would be a part of it like bocce ball during the summer we don't want to do it inside why don't we do this shit you have any italian friends teaching bocce ball bocce ball maybe we could play some horseshoes out here maybe something i don't know you could get shit faced with horseshoes right everything drinking that's what it is no it's seriously that's they ought to have a good time up there and they say that country corcoran country days was born and has become something to celebrate our great rural yet suburban community oh yeah we've welcomed such acts to the big stage as chase roberts jonah and the whales oh and the killer hayseeds wait that's not who i thought it was i don't think it is probably no no that's a religious band i was gonna say i don't know we mix bands up all the time or we'll be like you'll be like yeah no

they do this i was thinking judah and the lion there you go those are those are not close probably different i was sticking jeremiah and the bullfrogs but i was off on that jordan the whales he's like oh yeah southern lalapalooza in 99 so uh they're fucking great i left after their set i was like fuck it i'm done gonna do after that mic drop which is i'm done i'm out i'm out so uh many other local bands have come to provide free music to the community in other words people will go spend their their Saturday for free playing to a bunch of old people playing softball. Maybe somebody will be there. Maybe there's a producer.

Oh, yeah. They'll play it. Walking down Country Road, in quotes, visitors see the many vendors, police, fire, rescue displays, and kids' activities that are part of the free Family Day event Saturday. From the free rock climbing wall free is always in caps by the way we aren't robbing you no free rock climbing wall to the build a birdhouse what that's a weird thing to do yeah come on kids let's build a birdhouse for what get to work fucker from the moon bounce to the tractor displays oh look at that tractor kids there's there's something for everyone except me

i heard nothing for me did you hear anything for you i heard nothing for me there was very little for me very little for me oh wait there's other activities hold on maybe these are for us jimmy other activities range from hay rides and trauma helicopter fly-ins what that's not fun hey kids look at the fucking chopper with the back brace and the fucking and the life-saving equipment on board wow look at that oh look the paddles kids see when they jump that that's their heart reacting i didn't in my head i was like what are they gonna land with like six kids that have just been molested for the last 12 years by their dad that's what they do hey kids go play look at their trauma they drop them off it's another trauma shipment they just dropped some fucked up kids off that's a different level

adults that are depressed and haven't worked through it they just get off kind of i don't know i guess i'll play some bags that's cool yeah give me a beer beer changes everything it's fine poor kids there's counselors there it's very different and wild west demonstrations and craft shows oh it's a wild west i don't know why you do that in minnesota is different and wild west demonstrations and craft shows oh so wild west i don't know why you do that in minnesota is it the wild west no not necessarily no i get out here if people wanted to do that crap in arizona but not do people back east think that just west of the mississippi is the wild west not that i know of is that the thing not that i know of because if so then minnesota is but on the Coast, it's basically like there's the East Coast and then Arkansas.

And then the Wild West. And then the Pacific Ocean. That's how the East Coast is. We don't think of. Yeah. They don't even think of those states to even consider them of the wild. What is in there? I don't know.

Who cares? We've seen the decline all the way to Arkansas. We just assume it gets worse. Yeah. We're good. Yeah, exactly. That's what i mean people back east are like very wherever they are centric too like where's that i don't care that's not great

now friday and saturday ticketing tickets on sale for this were 35 for general admission okay 90 for vip okay stop it that's a little much. $10 for parking. I think VIP includes parking. Oh, better. VIP to include five drink tickets. All right. Okay, now we're talking. Unlimited food. All right. All right, you get shit-faced and eaten.

That's $90 already. Throwing up all over the place. VIP tent by the stage and parking included. So that's the way to go, it seems like. Now, the lineup for the Friday, I think this was 2019's show because it's canceled or it's virtual this year or some shit, is the Church of Cash at 6 p.m. I don't know who that is. That's every church.

Yeah, it is. I feel like that's one of those country bands that thinks they're cool. You know what I mean? We're like dark country. Right. Yeah. We play Johnny Cash only. That's it.

Only Johnny Cash. That's probably what it is. It's probably a Johnny Cash cover band. Church of Cash. Yeah. Johnny Cash. Oh, fine. And then it. Only Johnny Cash. That's probably what it is. It's probably a Johnny Cash cover band. Church of Cash. Yeah. Johnny Cash. And then it's got double meaning. Yeah.

Cannon Smith? C-A-N-A-N Smith? Canaan Smith? Canaan Smith? I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't matter because they're only warming up for the 10 p.m. act. The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band is in town.

What? Get out here. Yeah, at least two of them are still alive, I'm sure. And that's going to be great. They're going to get out there. Nobody knows the damn difference. Fishing in the dark. Play it on loop.

I don't care. I do not know. I know I've heard of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band as like a punchline, but I don't know one song of theirs. I'm pretty sure that's them. No clue. You and me on fishing in the dark. Wine on our backs. Is that them? I think so. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know i'm pretty sure that's them no clue me i'm fishing in the dark one on our backs is that

them i think i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i'm not i don't know hillbilly culture i'm very not up to my speed i'm pretty sure that's them i'll i'll google it well it's we'll do it we'll do it later it's uh so either way here's the second event for you jimmy i think this is the one you're going to be into. The Sholak Breastfest Music Festival. Hell yeah. I thought you'd be into that. Join us for Breastfest.

All right. The annual event consists of eight hours of live music from local Minnesota bands and even some from this area themselves. You'll be sure to have a great time with the whole family or coming by yourself. You're damn right I will. Attire is picnic, casual is picnic casual yeah no this is for breast cancer i was gonna just suppose gonna wait till we got to that point and i'm like how many more inappropriate tit jokes is jimmy gonna make before i get to that part and then he's gonna feel bad listen i donate every every time i can to that shit well there's an inflatable bounce house, which you were like, keep them bouncy.

Yeah. You're like, okay. All right. When I saw that coming up, I'm like, I got to say this before I get to the inflatable bounce house or it's going to get gross here. Got to say it before I get there. Crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here, obviously, is property crime is about one third of the

national average. So pretty damn low. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is under one-third the average. So excessively nonviolent here, apparently. Not a lot going on. I don't know if the big yards are preventing these people from killing each other or what here.

You hear some nitty-gritty dirt, man. You don't want to do anything bad. That's what I'm saying. Hey, you know what? I'm calm right the fuck down. Man, I was listening. I got angry, but then that nitty-gritty dirt band, you don't want to do anything bad. That's what I'm saying. You're like, hey, you know what? I'm going to calm the right the fuck down. Man, I was listening. I got angry, but then that nitty-gritty started playing, and I was like, yeah. Nitty-gritty.

The nitty to the gritty. Yeah, the nitty to gritty. That's what they call them. Nitty to gritty. Because they don't want to say the whole dirt band. Either that or just be like, I'm listening to the dirt band. You know them dirt band boys. They make you.

You don't really got to say the nitty-gritty. That's right. This is a dirt band. There are other dirt bands say the nitty gritty. That's right. This is a dirt band. No other dirt bands out there. That's right. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion

that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max,

starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana

community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran,

Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Now, for this murder, we got to go back in time a bit, a little bit, and we're going to go back to 1980, which was back in time pretty far, but still in modern times, you would say. Anything where the pictures are in color is modern times, I'm going to go with. Yeah. There were weird pictures, though.

Yeah, anything like mid-60s back is like, okay, that's all black and white. People have beehive hairdos and shit. And the 70s had a sun glisten in everything was like a weird sun sun-soaked sepia yeah there's an orange hue to everything well everybody was just wearing orange or avocado or like what was that one color like rotten lemon that everyone had in their kitchen like hey look at that rotten lemon kitchen i love that harvest gold that's what they call harvest gold or rotten lemon as i call it yeah that's what it looks like a rot as a kid i used to think that a rotten lemon when people thrown that out still have that 70s shit or the avocado green refrigerators and brown dark fucking brown so

much well brown yellow and green are all they go that was the color palette of the 70s for some reason mom's house was built in the 70s everything in her house is modern except her bathroom in the master bed and everything's brown. Mom, you got to do something about this. You got to change this. Nobody sees it but me and it doesn't bother me.

It doesn't matter. All right, well, you got a brown toilet bowl. That's weird. Yeah, when you stroke out or something, they come get you. They're going to come into the house. It's not a bad house. Jesus Christ.

What the fuck? What the fuck happened in here? No, no, help her, help her, but wow. Just don't look at the bathroom. You don't want to help her. It's not good in there. That bathroom says DNR. You know what?

That's what that bathroom says. She fucking deserves it. We're leaving. Leave her here. No, leave her on the bathroom floor. You started compression. Did you see her bathroom? Her bathroom is a DNR.

It's a cry for help, everybody. We're leaving. For sure. 1980. We're going to talk about a couple of people. They're a couple of people. There are a couple of people. They're a married couple named David Hoffman. And his wife is David Francis Hoffman.

And his wife is Carol Hoffman, maiden name Stebbins. So Carol Stebbins Hoffman, for all intents and purposes here. Now, David, talk about a little bit about him. First off, David is just kind of a simple guy from the area. Never really has any problems, doesn't get in any trouble or anything like that. He seems, I mean, he's not dumb or he's not like there's nothing wrong with him, but he just seems like kind of a simple guy. It's just kind of the way he is.

He's from St. Paul. He's born in 1946, so 1980 he's going to be 34 years old. He attended North High School in St. Paul. He was born in 1946. So 1980, he's going to be 34 years old. He attended North High School in St. Paul, Minnesota. He lives with his parents. And this was in North Minneapolis. And he lived right next door to the Stebbins family. Got it. That were right next door.

And he meets their daughter. Oh. Yeah, not bad. You got the literal girl night store the girl next door problem is uh he is 22 and she is 15 oh you can't do that david no that's called um i'm gonna go next door and kick the shit out of the neighbor boy for talking to our sophomore daughter all right i'm gonna go oh where where are you going honey oh just to go beat the shit out of our neighbor's kid that's all i'd take the father's ass for that even.

I might smack the mom around and I'm never for that. And I might just go, I swear to God, lady, I will give you the back of my hand along with your husband. If your fucking adult can get into bars, kid keeps talking to my goddamn ninth grade or 10th grade daughter who's got literally English homework to do. We can't have this shit. No. grade or 10th grade daughter who's got literally english homework to do we can't have this shit no uh but um and their parents were not great about it but he was a really nice kid and he's the kid next door so like they know him he's not some kid that they pulls off in his trans am you know still fucking weird blasting his ario speed wagon out the i'm trying to think of 1980

shit the cloud of cigarette smoke cloud of cigarette smoke peeling out at the end of the street like they know him he lives right there so you can like you can see him if you really want to keep an eye on him you can look in his window if you want to be a creep see what he's up i want to see how many times a day he's whacking it in there he's going to be around my daughter it's not for me it's to it's kind of for me i mean just for my information yeah it's not for me see how he does it you know just new techniques how long it takes you never know you pick things up that's all i'm saying you pick things up and i haven't been to the y in a while so i'm gonna try it here so he he's uh he's the parents are not thrilled with this they were talking about marriage when she was 15 years old so yeah this is 1980 not 1890 so it's you know a little bit different if it was 1890

we might be thinking oh yeah let's get it on but 15 they want her to go to college and do all that stuff so the uh yeah it's it's a little bit odd here but the father says uh her father says quote naturally i tried to talk her out of it he He was seven years older, but after two years, she still loved him. So we signed the papers. That was when she was 17 years old. They were married on December 24th, 1970. Christmas Eve. Christmas Eve.

Yes, she's 17. The parents decide to give in, sign the papers. I guess that's one of those things when they just get together and she says she's in love and wants to marry the guy when she's 15. It's like, Jesus Christ. But after two years of, and especially if they live next door, they're going to be constantly together. They're going to seem like a married couple anyway, which is not really in love and out of love with at least four different celebrities by now.

Yeah. And she still likes him, I suppose. Yeah. This isn't going to stop anyway, so we might as well right and that's you've got that choice yeah am i gonna fuck her up and she's gonna run away with this exactly so you're never gonna see her again or do i let her make a mistake and call it good and at least they're in range and we can keep an eye and we can help out and so yeah i think that and from what i can understand the stebbins family here cares a lot about Carol and they're nice people and they seem to be nice, accepting, forgiving, kind people. Hopeful.

Hopeful, kind. Yeah, they seem like good people. You'd want to live next door to these people and just avoid their 15-year-old daughter, please, in the future. Just avoid their 15-year-old daughter, please, in the future. So, yeah, they said they were married at first and everything seemed to be going well, which is good because you don't know what's going to happen if you... She's in high school. It's a different kind of relationship to being married. I can't imagine. Imagine being married in like the 11th grade.

Or then. Imagine being married. Yeah like the 11th grade or then imagine being married yeah no 11 yeah 11 like that's why i can't imagine like being like being in high school and talking to a friend and being like i'm gonna go do this after school and he's like i gotta talk to the wife what you got a wife yeah because like when i was in high school like you go out with a girl for like a couple of weeks or something. I'd just be like, I don't like her anymore. That's how I used to day night. I'd just be like, I don't know.

It wasn't like I liked anybody else better. Just be like, I'm not feeling it anymore. I don't really like her. Yeah, I don't know. I thought she was cool, but now she's kind of annoying. Or now, I don't know. We don't really get along. She doesn't like to do the same things I like to do.

She farted in front of me. Nah, I don't care. You know, I would lose interest in people quick in high school. So to be like, this is it forever in high school. No, I don't want to. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life with anybody that I went to high school with. No, you wanted to get away from those people to find better people to spend the rest of your life with. Can't wait to get away from you fucking losers.

I still can't fathom going back to a reunion i cannot wrap my head around that being an idea that sounds great oh they want they want you to love it i don't get it i know i remember getting a notification for mine and i'm like ew oh no and they were like trying to organize it yeah and they were going like people were they were working hard man they were like messaging on facebook because there's no school shit involved this is just people organized we're gonna rent a thing right we're gonna rent the school has nothing to do with this anymore what are we talking about this is somebody i went to high school that has so little to do with their life that she wants to email people no we haven't spoken in 15 years yeah no barely yeah sort of i think i said something

mean to you a couple times. I'm sure I did. Yeah, I'm positive I did. Anyone within arm's reach, I would have probably said something mean to back then, in a joking way. But, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I had it coned in quite the same back then. I was just probably shooting from the hip a little more with the insults. But, yeah, it's always somebody that's, yeah, I barely remember. They were, like, in my English class in the 11th grade.

And now they're organizing a thing, and they're taking, like want they want you to pay like you know 120 dollars right so they can put the deposit down on the fucking hall for the quote-unquote venue and i'm like who's coming to this nobody i know knew or hung out with would go to this and if they did i just feel bad for them and i don't want to see them probably because their life has not turned out well because i chose friends poorly back then. I did. Not all of them, but most of them. It might not even be your fault either because the pool you had to choose from was probably pretty shitty too.

That's who was around, but I like people who are, I like, you know me. I surround myself with weirdos always. I have a, I have a, they're weirdos. I don't know what it is. You know this too. Like you've seen it i'm a pied piper of fucking weirdos and i'll have like this group around me of like these disparate parts that don't go these fucking lost toys that all end up that's how i end up forming a group of friends with because i find them interesting i find damaged people interesting yeah things to talk

about yeah and they're willing to make a life experience That maybe isn't flattering for them later That you can make fun of them for That's the thing and they have different Someone who's a little off has a different take on some shit And you know a broken clock is right twice a day So every once in a while They'll say something and you'll go

Wow wouldn't have heard that from anybody else And it's fucking interesting I'd rather do that than just have a bunch of people around let's all say the same thing you know this chick that went to nursing school and has it all figured out except a husband and she wants to talk to me about what's been happening in my life she's not yours that's what's been happening also wants to know if maybe anybody would be interested in possibly her whatever the fuck multi-level marketing thing she's got going on there as well this candle by the way smell exactly like ck1 this yeah well if i wanted that when i fucking doesn't smell like

high school right come to the reunion and buy this candle does it smell like cucumber melon fuck you so get away from me yeah so somehow these two got along and there along carol and david i don't know how everybody said it was a good everybody was fine um yeah there's a a good a good uh you know good things are happening they have a couple of children they have 1971 they have their first child so i mean right away if they got married in 70 i don't know if that was the reason for the marriage or if they just got right into it right away either way it doesn't matter they have a daughter in 1971 and then another in 1977 so they end up with two daughters and um you know things are going well when about 1978

they have they have a fight and this was kind of their only big dust up and all marriages have these like i left for a day and this one you know yeah that shit happens um she took the she took the the child this was i think before the second daughter was born so it's like 77 she took the child and left for two days and that was it she came back they made up okay end of story had another kid and here they are in 1980 everything's fine. So normal marriage. And especially if you got together when you're that young, if you've only had one big blow-up that caused a two-day thing,

that's pretty goddamn good. Yeah. I mean, most people are long divorced by then if they got married when they were 17. They're shit long divorced if they've already killed each other. I left the house twice before we finally got a divorce, we didn't have any kids after that oh yeah the first time i moved out there was no more kids yeah i don't my first marriage there was a quite a few of those where you left and came back and there's quite a few of those yeah it was in between one after

i don't know happened so often who knows but it happened here and then it happened now happened now and then yeah so i get I get this. This is normal. So for them to only do it once, I'm like, pretty impressive. It is. With the pressure of children and everything else and a young life trying to make a living. Right. That's difficult. So now here's Carol's father talking about Carol here, saying that she was happy in the

marriage, from which he said he said that if she wasn't happy she short certainly would have shown it and told them and told anyone who wanted to ask he said quote that she was full of vinegar oh so i assume the paper left out the piss end part yeah but yeah she's not one to take shit a strong girl yeah she's strong she's not one to take it and and you know go mope off somewhere she will give it right back and so good for her and uh he said quote she was happy-go-lucky she'd work eight uh eight eleven eight ten eleven hours and then come home and take care of the kids make dinner and throw in the laundry she loved her husband so she knew she wanted this when she was 15?

She's amazing. Yeah, she dove right in. Yeah, she was fine with her life. And he said she kind of took care of everything. She worked a full day, overtime sometimes, and still kept the house up, which is like, wow. They don't make these anymore. They don't make people like that anymore at all. Yeah, I don't know what he was doing while this was happening. Why couldn't he? I don't know. They don't make these anymore. They don't make people like that anymore. Like at all. Yeah. I don't know what he was doing while this was happening.

Why couldn't he? I don't know. I don't know if he's working 12, 13, 14 hours a day, but if not doubles, man. Yeah. Or watching the kids all day or some shit. I don't know. But yeah, they, he said that the father said that, you know, by a few years into it, he was like, oh, I guess we made the right decision letting her get married because she seems

to be happy. She works it out. She does fine. Now, David, he's kind of you. You would like David. Yeah. He'd be one of your buddies that you'd go on a boat with. All right.

Yeah. He loves fishing and dirt bikes. Shit. Yeah. That's his thing that he likes to do. Great. Goes to his company picnics all the time. No.

Oh, that's I can't i can't take that no no i feel like they're more social in this town than we want to be um but yeah good dad everybody says oh he's a carrying both the kids and you know you know one of those kind of dads they went up on his shoulders and went over here hey kids we're going over to the i don't know it's a good family everybody likes him he works hard works in a Okay. And everybody said he's a hard worker, works as many hours as he can, tries to provide a good living for the family as well, as well as Carol working too to make ends meet. And, yeah, his wife was Carol.

She's into ceramics and things like that. Jesus. They have their own. Like I said, he likes to fish. She likes her ceramics, and they're fine with it. Their friends, all of their friends kind of say he's just a good guy. He's kind of the general things. One of his friends specifically said, well, it was a neighbor, said he would, quote, would

borrow me his lawnmower. Oh, boy. So that's nice. That's such a weird word. Yeah. That's so weird when people put it like that. Just say loan. He borrowed me his lawnmower.

No, you borrowed his lawnmower. It's a polysyllabic word for loan words have meanings and that is not the right one he did something that you did something yeah you borrowed he loaned you need to take the words and mix them up or something if you've got the idea and you've got all the pieces for a sentence but you don't they're not in the right order also he would help neighbors like fix their cars if anybody had a problem he would go down try to fix it for him and shit nice guy everybody said i'm not like i said not a real not like a voluble like uh real brilliant man or anything everybody

said he was kind of a kind of a monosyllabic kind of a guy you know just kind of uh everybody said he was just typical they they quoted him as they quoted neighbors and friends as saying he's just kind of a typical working man goes home you know goes fishing goes home with his wife hangs out with his kids nothing crazy a whole lot of yuck in that man yeah not like he doesn't have like a secret like oh you know orgy life that he's hiding from anybody he's not out like you know doing weird eyes wide shut shit around with people. Just can't wait to fix your carburetor.

Yeah, he'll come down, fix your carburetor and will not try to finger your wife. Right. So, you know what? That's not bad. Have a beer with you and maybe hit the fishing hole tomorrow. That's what you want out of people, right?

That's a great life, man. Hey, it's not bad. I like it. He's doing okay. Yeah, that's what I mean. It sounds like you. That's my kind of dude. Yeah, that's my kind of guy.

There he is, Jimmy. Absolutely. I'm going to hold you to that. Everybody, just note, David is Jimmy's kind of guy. All right, we got that on record. Yeah. Now, his mother is named Helen. Okay.

Helen Ulvenen. That's hard to say. U-L-V-I-N-E-N. Ulvenen. So, Helen is about 1980. She's hard to say. U-L-V-I-N-E-N. Olvenen. So Helen is about 1980. She's about 65 years old. And Helen is an interesting kind of a lady. She's a bit of a pain in the ass.

Everybody says she's very dramatic and things like that. She's had a life. She's had quite the life to her as well. She has an eighth grade education. But, I mean, she's born a life she's had quite the life to her as well uh she has an eighth grade education yeah but i mean she's born in 1915 right so that's that's a scholar if you're from the country in the yeah like you know in during the dust bowl and shit like that era not that the minnesota the dust bowl but if you're from the country in that era there wasn't not everybody graduated from my school may as well be a phd yeah that's I mean. It was, well, she's lettered.

I mean, that's good enough. So she was kind of, she had a, like, she was married in, she was married young. Yeah. And she was married for a long time, over 20 years. And David was born in 1946. And her husband, they got a divorce somewhere in there really yeah like 1950 so she ends up divorced and ends up remarrying somebody else like the next year and i don't know how long that marriage lasted but there was some rocky shit going on and as we'll talk about she like

lost custody of david for a while and yeah it got a little got a little rocky here and like we said we don't know what helen's past is so i don't know what caused all of this now um um she ends up though in aug in uh late july of 1980 she ends up moving in with david and carol helen does that's that's yeah and it's not a popular decision no on the home front amongst the amongst both of them amongst both he's not real thrilled so he says but he doesn't mind because it's his mom and we'll talk about their relationship because it is um fucking interesting really oh boy it's creepy so uh yeah they have a weird weird relationship. But Carol decides that basically Helen offers to be like the live-in babysitter. So for people who both work full-time jobs, to have a live-in babysitter, you're weighing it.

Like, huge pain in the ass. Don't have to go to daycare. Convenience of life. Picking kids up, dropping them off. Is the inconvenience that she presents also worth uh the yeah convenience that she also presents how big is the house right shit can she get lost can she can we fuck is there a mother-in-law suite this is why they invented that right so yeah she moves in on july 26th 1980 and uh live in babysitter basically carol was not thrilled about this no she told

her friends that she couldn't fucking stand helen hated helen she's a huge pain in the ass and just whenever she's around there's tension there's tension in the marriage because of helen because helen's one of those people who likes to stir up drama jesus, Jesus. Yeah, toxic. She seems very toxic, Helen, would be the best way to put it, as a person. And probably one of those people that comments on the marriage. Absolutely, yeah. And I think...

Where she has no fucking business or place. And Carol knows that, like, she has David's ear, and she's... I don't know if it's, like, kind of gaslighting, and she's a toxic harpy, basically. She's a shit star and she's moving into the home, which is terrible.

But Carol told her told her friends that, you know, basically I told David we could try it. Let's try it. It's kind of a trial basis. Give it a shot for a few months. See if it works. And, you know, maybe we'll all get used to each other. And the fact that she's here to watch the kids will be worth it. I don't know maybe we'll all get used to each other and the fact that she's here to watch the kids will be worth it i don't know we'll see how it goes i think carol is just a nice person and is trying to be agreeable and also because it's she's thinking look it's his mother

even if i can't stand her it is his mother right so i'm gonna try to you know meet him halfway and she's offering to help with the kids so i think she's looking at it like that like i'd be i would feel like a dick if i didn't try it so she's a nice enough person person where she's gonna try it anyway and also being a kind person in this moment could be uh leverage in our relationship and marriage getting better that's the other thing too yeah you're you could be you're showing that look i'm trying to meet you halfway i'm trying to do something for you so this this could be family building. You know I think your mother is a bitch. And I'm still letting her move in.

She's in. She's in here. See her? Look at her. She was in the bathroom a minute ago. I smelled her shit. She was a bitch to me no less than 10 minutes ago. She was a bitch to me.

And I'm like, it's cool. It's fine. I'm going to brush my teeth. A wall of your mom's shit. Oh, it's all it was. I'm still here. My brush tasted like it. I had to throw it out.

I had to throw it out, really. I i gotta keep it in my closet from now on so um david kind of had a tough upbringing here in 1954 when he was eight years old he was taken from his mother along with his two younger sisters um his two younger sisters were i think their father ended up taking them somebody else and then uh he ended up being taken away and put in an orphanage oh so david from the ages of eight to ten was in an orphanage that's awful in the early 50s that's like a fucking that's like a little orphan any orphanage you know what i mean years of hell yeah instead of kisses we get kicked kind of shit yeah not good boy not great um two years later he's reunited with his mother and he doesn't seem to blame his mother at all he's just like he looks at her as rescuing him yeah it's the opposite no resentment

no even though he she's the reason he was there to begin with and all the reason in the world he's still he's like mom rescued me from the terrible orphanage. So it's that sort of thing. It's me and Mom against the world. And we'll talk exactly kind of how that was at this point here. Boy, David, let's just say David loves his mommy. And now if anybody out here, you don't have to have seen this. But if anybody has watched 90 Day Fiance over the last few years, including this current season. Now, um, you might know of, of the guy named cult.

You've seen cult because you've seen like memes of him and shit everywhere. I'm sure he's the kind of a heavy set dude. He's got, he's got some tits on him. This cult, he's on 90 day fiance and glasses. And for any, he married this Brazilian woman who,

and he moved her into his house in Vegas and he lives with his mother. And he's basically married to his mom. You can't do that. Yeah. And it's his mom and his all fights are three way fights. His mom and this one and that one. And she's like getting involved in his relationships. And now it's clear that like, you know, she thinks of him as hers.

And this every woman that comes in is just interfering in their relationship he doesn't realize that this is why he has to shop outside the country oh no and and he fucks that she fucks everything like that up too no and in conversations with his friends he'll be like yeah i mean i know i need to like stand up to my mom or maybe i need to get my own place and there you get your own place yahtzee yeah he was married this woman and she's like please can we just have our own place she can live next door i don't care but i'd love to be able to fucking walk around and not see your mom every time i go into the fucking living room that is a relationship pressure it was and it was it's dude it's creepy and if you're watching

currently it's it's reaching peak creepiness at this point in time my it's really weird like they're you know that's too much they have them on the pillow talk show or they have the people from the show watch the show and make fun of shit and they have them on there it's supposed to be couples like sitting in bed together watching and it's them on a couch all three of them no no the two of them him and his mom because the wife has left him now it's over every girl has left him every single one both the brazilian chicks and he doesn't get it he doesn't get it now he's like well i'll just sit here with my mom and like she'll like it's they

got in a big fight him and his wife and he took his mom out to dinner to make up for the whole thing i'm really sorry you had to witness that mom yeah yeah literally that's left his wife at home not the three of them yeah took yeah weird as shit. That's vile. It's fucking creepy. Really gross. And that's kind of what's going on here. It's a Devin cult situation. If you watch 90 Day Fiance, he he boy. So he he said that he loved his mom always.

He always told everybody and he felt responsible for her as she was getting older because she felt like he owed her a debt of debt of gratitude did i just say a get of that okay attitude i can't he's got a dad to tutor i swear to god he's gonna take care of me that's what that is words can come out and i can use them but apparently not sometimes they come out all crinkled but why does he owe shit? Like she's good because she got him out of the orphanage. She's going to fall apart and he needs to take care of her for fucking how long? Forever. Because she got him out of the orphanage. And, you know, that was that's all and everything for him.

He that that two years in the orphanage, apparently in his mind, really. Oh, boy. Went up there. Now, the her father,ol's father ray he says that basically the mother was like a queen to dave she he thought of her as like the queen and treated her as such she said ray says quote he worshipped the ground she walked on it was david's idea for mom to move in he said mom's had a hard life now i'm going to take care of her so you got a queen you married her uh she also she has uh eight other children stop that eight they they could chip into eight

wow he's the only son she has eight girls and one boy which is wow just the odds of that this is the the dice she should at least i hope she plays craps or something because she can just fucking nail seven after seven she's good so uh she said and also the the race said that david quote could do no could do no wrong in his mother's eyes there's why so yeah this is and if you're the only son out of nine kids that mother is go oh my god and if she never judges you oh you're gonna be she's gonna forget about it i mean it's gonna be ridiculous mothers love their sons yeah and it's the way it is dads have a special thing for their daughters moms have a special thing for their sons it's a you know they take care of them different it's a i don't know it's a weird thing

that we all have but yeah but this weird, and they have a strange relationship. Is it because psychologically we know that she is going to get another guy? You know what I mean? Maybe. You've got to try to be the best you can so that she goes and gets the best guy? Well, if she ends up with guys, I guess, then you're looking at, or whoever she ends up with, guys, girls, it doesn't really matter. You just want to set an example, I feel like, as somebody that would be like yeah because the only really they don't have the most examples they have

are their parents so if their parents are both decent they'll look for people who are like their parents or at least decent like that hopefully yeah either that'll go the complete opposite way yeah and they'll look for you know the guy hiding in an electrical box with the bees there's definitely psychology behind that for one way or the other whether it's you treat your wife the way you want them to it's all who knows if it's like a reverse edible thing i don't know what the fuck it is a reverse edible it could be that too that's possible as well it's bizarre it's strange but he uh yeah he got put it this way. One time he got in a fist fight at work. A fist fight at work because a guy was talking on the company telephone and his mom was outside waiting for him.

And he needed to make a phone call before he left for work and made his mom wait 10 minutes outside. So he got in a fist fight because you made my mother wait outside for me that's not fist fight that is um i really need to use the phone wow if he doesn't do it you know that guy's a fucking dick right that's all that's not i'm gonna knock your teeth out but that's how protective he is of his mom my mom had to wait 10 minutes like wasted 10 minutes of my mom's time i'm down he'd be terrible around italian people hey why don't you go fuck your mother what okay so she this is the other thing uh there is rumors around and friends of carol have said that carol suspected that there

was a sexual relationship between mother and son not Maybe not actively, but at some point in the past or some point at something, there has been like lovingly sexual, like a sexual relationship between mother and son. That's what she believes. What some of the friends have said. So that's, you know, I don't know. That's a lot. That's a lot to take in. Like, she's like, it's creepy. That's why she just doesn't like Helen around.

When David's by himself and they're together, everything's fine. When Helen's around, it's all about Helen. She's the specter over the whole thing. That's so heavy. She's the umbrella hanging over everything here. I look at her like a big willow tree, just like drooping and draping her tentacles on everybody. So August 10thth 1980 comes around and um yeah she and helen and carol have been fighting basically helen is not even fighting

helen has been complaining is what it is she's complaining about everything she said that uh she'd been she would uh be treated better if she was in jail she said you people treat me horribly at one point she locked carol out of the house so carol was like this is fuck i can't even get my fucking house she locked me out of the house she went outside carol we'll talk about it to look at the uh to look at the garden or something and and uh helen locked her out i'd lose it, I would be extremely upset about that. Also on this day, there was some kind of fight between Carol and David, maybe about that,

where David ended up taking a walk and ended up missing dinner. It's a mess, man. It's a mess. So yeah, once she moved in all downhill, August 10th is the day we're talking about here. That's about complaining about I'd be treated better in jail, Helen says. She complained specifically that the Hoffmans did not have any whole milk on hand.

No whole milk. You're 65. Go to the store, bitch. Well, not only that, you're a heavyset 65-year-old woman. Let's switch to fucking 2%, all right? Maybe some skim. I can't do whole milk anyway. That shit is like, it's thick.

It's like pudding. It's chewy. I can't do it, man. It's gross. Well, I'm not, milk and dairy shit doesn't react well to me. I love ice cream and stuff, but it hurts me. So whole milk, if I eat whole milk. You got to weigh the taste versus the punishment.

Yeah. If I eat whole milk, I am going to be in trouble for a long time. A lot of stomachache going on. And it's gross in the first one. And it's disgusting. I don't even want it to begin with. So she was mad they had no whole milk, no half and half, or not even any Cool Whip. Oh, my God.

Nothing of a thick creamy white consistency why does this old bag love this i could get like 4 000 immediate calories out of you could fucking extract right so that's what she's looking for here she uh she was worried and yelling at carol because she said that the granddaughters will become anemic without whole milk. They're going to be anemic without whole milk. Or can you? Where's the half and half something?

They're withering away. I'll push cool whip down. We don't even have that. They're fine. They're not emaciated. They're not sick. The kids are well taken care of. Carol takes super good care of her kids and feeds them nutritious meals.

They don't need half and half stuff down their throat to put on weight. She's losing her mind about we don't have any of the dairy case in the fridge. We have nothing. How Minnesota is that though? How like upper Minnesota, Wisconsin, and all regions? I'm going to have to douche them with sour cream. Oh, God. I want something dairy that I can hold in my hand.

Right. Like whole milk. Something that doesn't go through my fingers. Yeah, exactly. Like whole milk. Something like a plop of Cool Whip or whole milk or half and half. You don't drink half and half. That goes in your coffee and that's it.

A little bit. Otherwise, you don't drink half and half. I actually, one of my cousins. Stop this. He has this cousin this cousin man it was hilarious and it was uh most guinea thing ever too it was like his his christening or some shit when he was like seven or not his christening communion or some shit when he was seven and the party was at the knights of columbus and beacon new york it's the most stereotypical shit ever and this kid he was hyperactive as fuck ghetto brian my cousin ghetto brian we call him ghetto brian because he's a super ghetto yeah great guy nice

dude good dude but man he's just a ghetto motherfucker he's just from there and he's just puts water in his ghetto brian he had this house that just had bullet holes all over it and we're like ghetto brian what are you doing bro he was just like you know it happens it was wild location location location my little brother went there to do something with him or drop him off or something and he was like all right man see you later get o'brien said to him he goes hey but don't turn right he goes you'll definitely get carjacked he goes so you should go left this is the way you got to go around that area or else you'll get killed and so do that so get o'brien anyway when he was seven maybe this is what ended up causing all of this he was going around to every table and getting all of the half and half out of the middle of the middle of the

table and fucking chugging shots dude he'd take all the tops off and line them up and he'd be like bang bang bang bang bang bang do like fucking 10 in a row it was like an old west cowboy sliding the whiskeys up in front of me it was i saw him do it so much he probably drank 40 of them in front of me and i didn't sell anybody because i wanted to see what would happen my daughter likes the vanilla ones at restaurants and then she doesn't even open them she just like jams her canine tooth through the lid and then she she doesn't even open them she just like jams her canine tooth through the lid and then puts it in her mouth and it's like baby now with like a human keurig right she's a human keurig jimmy what the hell is going on good lord she doesn't even put like a carburetor in it i

don't know how she gets it out folks the fucking shotguns what is happening she's a lunatic now with covid thank christ she probably won't do it ever again because people got to touch those that's gross that is pretty just jamming them in her fucking mouth that's that's different just the vanilla ones the white ones fuck them she won't touch them she'll stack those in the middle of the table the blue ones those are going right in her goddamn mouth wow if they don't have any cool whip or half an hour milk whole milk what else is she supposed to do not anemic thank christ the kids were the kids would become anemic immediately without whole milk if it's not in at least some half and half for the love of god and if not cool whip it'll work in a pinch it'll work in a pinch

wow she uh that's some 1915 logic there. Oh, my God. Fatten them up. No, you don't just give them fat. You got any lard? We'll just spoon lard into their Cheerios. But then they don't have any whole milk. So then again, we're back to that.

Yeah, she clearly went through the Great Depression and just set Cool Whip outside and let it go into a liquid form and poured that on her cereal or something. There we go. That's better for calories. And Helen is, make no mistake about it a large woman really she's a very very large woman and so she's you would think that she probably eats cool whip maybe okay a little extra than she needs a big woman she's a pain in the ass she's yeah and she's just a nightmare causing problems like throw mama from the train is what I keep. Crisscross. Yeah, it just keeps popping in my head is throw mama from the train.

Owen! She's just screaming across the house. David! Carol! That lady's an amazing actress. And Carol every time. You know she is like, oh, God. Oh, my God.

Coming, because she's nice and she's still going to try. She's like, I'm coming Shuddering. Oh, my God. Coming, because she's nice and she's still going to try. She's like, I'm coming. Okay, okay. She counts backwards of what the life expectancy is for somebody that's hugely obese and 65. Maybe five more years. And she eats nothing but Cool Whip and whole milk and half and half. So I'll just buy more half and half and speed this process up. That's all I can do.

Now, Helen is complaining, like I said, that she would be treated better in jail. She said, if I was in jail, I'd get what I want. Oh, boy. No, probably not. You're not going to. I don't think they'll give you extra half and half. No, not actually. Probably.

You get what you get. You get what you get. Probably. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast. Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast,

Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car

to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened and with over 450 episodes there's a case for every true crime listener follow the generation y podcast on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to generation y ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. After a while, the complaints even started to irritate David, who has a very long fuse with his mom. But we're not sure if he was mad at her or if he was just upset that there was tension because his mom.

I don't know. In his weird mind, he might have been upset that Carol wasn't providing his mom everything that his mom needed, even though he can go get some fucking cool whip if he wants to also there's no rule against that right so uh he ends up leaving the house going off and taking a walk and missing dinner that's how mad he is now now helen was at dinner she's there and uh reluctantly though reluctantly she wasn't like you know she's you know i don't know about this dinner i guess i'll eat well at first she said she wasn't like you know she's you know i don't know about this dinner i guess i'll eat well at first she said she wasn't hungry i'm not hungry carol's like yeah okay all right yeah sure yeah in a few minutes no problem no problem mother what's her name all vinnin no problem there you got it sure and then after a minute she changed her mind she said and filled her plate

and ate every fucking drop of it so she went from i just i know i just don't want to eat too i guess i'll eat an entire plate and all of it and you know and get full but also criticize the food while she ate the whole thing as well yeah just pick pick a Carol. Pick a Carol. Pick a Carol. For not adding enough onions to the rice that went with the beef. Who? What? I don't want onions in my rice. No. Number one.

Probably Carol didn't either. Yeah. She probably put the onions in just to shut Helen up anyway. Right. And then she's complaining there's not enough onions. Meanwhile, poor Carol's got like a pile of discarded onions on the side of her plate that she had to pick out of her rice because she didn't want any. Put these in yours.

Maybe. I don't know what the dish was, so I don't know if it was something that should go with it. Beef and rice. I assume it's a casserole dish because it's Minnesota. Probably. So you put onions in that. Something made in a Pyrex. It's made in a Pyrex.

It's cooked at 350 to 370, maybe 375 to finish it once they pull the tinfoil off to get a crisp on top. It's got a good cheese thickness on top. Yeah, yeah. So you pop the tinfoil off, kick it up to 375, get a little crispiness on the cheese. So Helen's bitching about dinner, complaining about dinner. In addition to that, this is the same day, like we said, she locked not only Carol, but David as well out of the house when they went outside to check on the vegetable garden.

Oh, no. They went back in and the door was locked. She wouldn't open it. Later on, once she finally let them in after a while, she said it was because there was a bee in the house and she wanted to kill it. So she needed to lock them outside to kill the bee. So the 65-year-old heavy lady is limber enough to kill a bee. Yeah.

Well, she did, like, she tried to get the... Of saving your life. She tried to, because usually you open the door and try to shoo the bee out, but she tried that, and the bee wouldn't leave, so then she did, like, a Bronx tail, and she locked the door, and she said, no, you just can't leave. And she just fucking... It's either him or me.

That's it, and she went in and attacked him. So apparently that obviously pissed them both off, and just the whole thing causes David to go out and miss dinner, That's it. She went in and attacked him. So apparently that obviously pissed them both off. And just the whole thing causes David to go out and miss dinner. And poor Carol has to sit and eat with Helen and the kids by herself. Enjoy the comments. You know she needs a buffer for this. I feel bad.

So that's the 10th. Now, August 11th, 1980, Hoffman, David, calls the police and says that uh carol's missing can't find carol i might like to file a missing persons report and you know i don't know where she is she's gone i woke up today she wasn't here right i don't know what the hell's going on she's just not here so that's you know that's uh concerning concerning and at the same time after what happened yesterday right maybe she's had enough of this shit. That's what I mean. So, yeah, it's not exactly surprising, I guess. But the thing is that's weird is there's a couple of odd things.

Number one, her rings are at the house. And the thing about that is not that she didn't take her rings off ever, but her fingers were swollen. She had some water problems or something, and her fingers were swollen, her family says, the day before. And she couldn't get her rings off because her fingers were too swollen. So how did she get her rings off to take them off? So that's one of the things. How did she get them off to leave, and why would she struggle that hard to get them off to leave? It doesn't make any sense.

Or was she that pissed? Yeah, but there's not just her wedding ring. It's multiple rings. Oh, everything. So, yeah, it's all her rings. So they're like, that's really weird. It's a lot of effort. It's a lot of effort. It's a lot of effort.

Yeah, it's strange. And also, her family's like, I mean, I don't know if it's for a day or whatever, but they don't think she would go anywhere, even for a day, without the kids. Like, if she's leaving, she's taking the kids with them. And if she's leaving the kids, she's telling somebody where she's going. Yeah, and more than likely, because the one time she left, she took the daughter with her, and that was that. I mean, she's the kids. She's their mom, and she's a good mom, and she's not going and more than likely because the one time she left she took the daughter with her and that was that i mean she's the kids she's their mom and she's a good mom and she's not going to just leave her kids and take off without saying anything it's just

not her style at all and if she was out of a scenario and a and an environment that's toxic she's not going to leave her kids in it no that's the thing she's not going to leave her kids in it and she doesn't seem to be the type of person that would have any trouble telling him, too, that I'm leaving and I'm taking the kids. And here's fucking why. Yeah, because you're an asshole. And because you're letting your mother's worse. Yeah, you're letting your mother, your mom's worse. And yeah, your mother.

And then she just leaves. That's it. Yeah, your mother. So after the disappearance here, within the next few days, David becomes very emotional while they're looking for his wife. Apparently very emotional. He's he's also, you know, trying to find the wife and he's trying to find Carol. He's trying to help the police and all that stuff. He's a participant in the searching and everything for her.

Oh, yeah. He looks like he's all about it. and everything for her effort oh yeah he looks like he's all about it and that week like within the next few days after that he becomes emotional and experiences a religious conversion and also uh be tells everybody that the end of the world is coming all right so end of the world is coming he's all of a sudden fun to be around yeah not religious at all before this right at all like he just wasn't a religious guy not like an atheist or anything or not not an atheist not a catholic he's just just i don't know not really my thing doesn't matter to me doesn't matter i really don't have much of an opinion on it but apparently right after carol

disappeared he accompanied friends to church they said well i can't hurt come pray to find her type of thing so he went to the evangelical free church in uh rogers minnesota this that sunday and he at that point accepted christ into his life he said this is this is it he was on board and he immediately became obsessed with judgment day before this he had no real you know grasp of any of it now he's like well judgment day oh shit oh that's this week fuck god damn it did you see the goddamn date on this thing i didn't know this shit existed it's coming up pretty quick boy did i get it in a nick of time i'll tell you what so uh he would he would frequently this is over this is in like a couple of days would link the end of the world to events

that are happening including including but not limited to the eruptions at mount saint helens and the fact that his mother's name is stop that helen oh boy that's a sign that the end of the world is coming that's judgment day okay yes because it just happened yes right because a all of that is real and b assuming it is god named that mountain mount saint helens not just us and then no god had no plan in your mom's name nor that mountain no but well obviously duh right god is working you don't get it jimmy it's everywhere he's not telling everybody it's assigned to david oh it's specifically yeah the mount st helens helens david yeah you need to you know alert the rest of everybody that the judgment day is coming

what the fuck well maybe he should link that uh that mountain is a destructor and so's his fucking mom well that could be together yeah yes is as big as that volcano and she's a she's a real terror she's a terror yeah you know what after uh too many onions and whole milk i bet you the comparisons are apt that's all i'm saying yeah there are eruptions so that was a big deal with him now the police are talking to everybody because she's has left no sign she's been gone for a few days here and you know didn't come back for the kids they're they're thinking there's some foul play involved here the ring thing they don't like there's a lot of stuff they're not liking

here so they talk to everybody including david's co-workers at graco inc i think that is the baby stuff that's the car seats and shit yeah grayco with minneapolis manufacturer then so it's probably them it's probably them this person said that david told them in a joking manner that he intended to kill carol oh jesus just like joking around though you know like you joke with your friends that you're going to kill your wife all the time especially specifically by the way because if you joke like that i'm gonna kill her boy i mean that's hilarious number one but when you really get specific about it then it's really funny that's when it becomes a full bit right at first you're just throwing it out but then you premise you got

to work it into a chunk you know and he starts working this whole act up oh boy uh one where he talks to a co-worker named renee hullsworth and he tells her that he thought about killing his wife by drowning her in a snowmobile accident on thin ice that's a pasta that's funny that's his opener that's his opener he's gonna build that's pretty clever though it's pretty well i mean it's minnesota it's kind of like oh it's a hunting accident and it's the same thing just woods deaths or they happen so often went one way i went the other happened to be a lake that's it it's like drop dead gorgeous when they're like oh it's hunting season it's gonna get busy when she's down in the morgue like oh boy oh 10 000 lakes around here she just stumbled on one we lose 10 12 of the population the first week on

season every year so that you gotta have 11 kids in minnesota just the way it works right so uh later david offered her five thousand dollars to not say anything about that that's once once carol disappears david goes hey i'll give you five grand if like if you're asked about anything about me don't mention that snowmobile thin ice what a weird thing don't mention that whole thing because it just looks it looks bad you know you know they get the wrong idea i don't want to listen five grand is a less inconvenience to my life than what that questioning is going to do i mean clearly obviously it was comedy i'm an artist clearly but you know they don't get it these people they don't get art five grand five grand that's crazy so but her her and other people around the office a leona olsen and steve

brant said that they all believe these you know threats and things were just meant as a joke and that he was just getting quote some hostilities off his chest by talking about them what don't know how much how much what you okay if you work with a guy who's always joking about specific ways to kill his wife that's not i'm not friends with that guy and that guy also is thinking about it a lot it's like al bundy with a fucking psychotic streak you know al bundy hated peg but he was never like i'm gonna take her to the lake and i'm gonna push her in off the boat and then weigh her down with that i I'm just kidding, though. That's hilarious, right?

I'm going to tie cinder blocks to her leg and watch her fucking red hair just sink. That's funny, right? It would be funny if he did it. Yeah. Ed O'Neill could deliver that. I was going to say, Ed O'Neill could probably make it. And she would be great, too. She's so fucking, she's so funny. He oftentimes joked about, you know, did you miss me with every shot so far?

And it was funny every goddamn time. Yes, but it was never. It was amazing, but it it's never and it was always directed toward her it was never it's not to his buddies at the shoe store it's not like they were at a party and oh boy i'll kill my wife and then she's there and he's like up here she's going off on his bit again i'll get more dip it's like i'm gonna take her out on a snowmobile and everyone's like oh this guy's hilarious so uh they said that uh steve brant the one co-worker he knows about everything and he says that he doesn't believe that there's any foul play involved with david of course anyway he said that uh you know he asked he did have to ask everybody a few days after the disappearance not to tell people about the jokes he's been making right you know i'm a funny guy but my art can get me in trouble is what he said and they were like listen

dave we get it here's how innocent i am five grand that screams less innocence than it does guilt you know what i mean that's what i'm saying five grand that's a lot of money especially that 1980 that's a decent amount yeah 25 grand probably now it's like that's a lot of money especially that 1980 that's a decent amount yeah 25 grand probably now it's like that's a good amount wow you can buy a house for fucking 20 more you'll buy a car for five grand in 1980 like a new one so finally uh he's interviewed a couple times by the police and like i said he's trying to quote help out right they're kind of treating him like he's part of the investigation at this point sure and then about february 18th they're like we got to really question him now there's they've found some things that they're a little concerned with and they want to question him seriously so on august 18th did i

say february it's august august 18th so a week after the disappearance he sits down with the at the hennepin county sheriff's office here with some deputies, and he's advised of his rights right away because he's a suspect at this point, or at least a person of interest, I would say. What he begins with, David is going to begin this interview process, he goes to, not as a group, they're all lined up, each individual detective, and asks them if they believe in the Lord. Okay. Do you believe in the Lord?

Yep. Do you believe in the Lord? Do you believe in the Lord? Literally, that's how he goes through the whole thing. And number four, guess what I'm about to ask you. And then when they all say, sure. Yeah. I mean, at that point, yep.

Yeah. I'll agree to anything. I got to hear what you got to say now. It's pretty obvious that guy is not looking for no. Yeah. He's not looking for no and he's not going to go, do you believe in the Lord? Okay, cool. Just asking.

Anyway, I don't know what the fuck happened to Carol. Probably not going to be the case. He's probably going to give us something here if we all agree that we believe in the Lord. Right. So he says, all right, let me tell you what happened to Carol. He goes, because I know what happened to Carol at this point. And right here, we can start off with we have the beginning of his whole statement. And we're going to do a small town murder piece theater out of this.

And while Jimmy pulls his up, I will start this off here on this. off um here on this he says that on the morning of the 11th the uh uh wow helen told him his mom told him that she was going to move out she's moving out because quote carol has been so nasty to me okay um and in his statement he says this is how he opens it up that's your first A there no I'm A you're Q but just give me the A and then you're in the next Q so he says here that quote Sunday morning that's the day of the

11th I went downstairs and my mom was in the bedroom reading you know I do character reading the newspaper and she had tears in her eyes. And she said in a very frustrated voice, voice, I've got to find another house. She said, Carol, don't want me here. And she said, I probably shouldn't have moved here.

And I just said, then don't let don't let what Carol say hurt you. It's going to take a little more period of readjustment for her. Then I told mom that I've got to do it tonight so there can be peace in this house. Yeah. What'd you tell your mom that you have to do that night? I told my mom that I was going to have to put her to sleep. Dave, will you tell us exactly what you told your mother that night? Listen to the best of your recollection.

Well, I said I was going to have, I said I was going to have to choke her tonight and I'll have to dispose of her body so that it'll never be found. That's the best of my knowledge. What did you say to your mother when you told her that? What did your mother say to you when you told her that? There's 11 words. What the fuck is happening? She just looked at me with very sad eyes and just started to weep. I think she said something like, it will be for the best.

Okay. What? Okay, that's breaking the intermission. That's real. That's real. That's what two people said back and forth to each other for real. Off the fucking tape, that is a transcript. And there's more.

There's a second part. I'm going to give some stage direction here. David then spends the day fishing with a friend of his that's he's got to get out of this house and go fishing which that was probably the most relaxing fishing he's ever had uh when he got home that afternoon he had another conversation with his mother and she told him at that at that time about a phone conversation carol had in which she discussed taking the children and leaving home that's what he claims that she said that helen said now david told the police that during the conversation with his mother that afternoon he told her mom tonight's got to be the night and here's your question when you told your mother tonight's got to be the night

did your mother understand that you're gonna kill karen that evening carol carol when you told your mother tonight's got to be the night did your did your mother understand that you were gonna kill carol that night she thought i was just kidding about her kidding her about doing it she didn't think i could do it why didn't your mother think that you could do it because for some time i'd been telling her i was going to take carol scuba diving and make it look like an accident you know she said and she always said oh you're just kidding me but your mother knew what you're gonna do that night right i think my mother sensed that i was really gonna do it that night what do you think your mother sensed you're really going to do it that night. What do you think your mother sensed you were really going to do it that night?

Because when I came home, she told me what had happened to the house, at the house, and I told her, tonight's got to be the night. I think she said, again, I'm not certain, it would be best, you know, for the kids. How do they do this with a straight face? For the kids. What the fuck? It'd be best if I just killed their mom who provides them with a wonderful upbringing and you know guides them and gives them everything i think it'd be best if i kill her obviously

because there's just a lot of tension in the house rather than you just moving out i'll just kill their mom that'd be much better for and his mom knew whoa so it's a 12 page statement here he says in it just further over. He said that he planned on killing his wife for nearly a year. This has been going on, which I don't get it because they were fine before Helen moved in. So that's a weird part. He said that on the 9th, the day before the 10th, when they were all arguing there, that he and his wife went scuba diving near Stillwater. And he considered disconnecting her air supply.

Either that or crimping her tube. Yeah, that's what he said. What the fuck? He also said, maybe I could just go under there and strangle her with the tube. He's like, but then that would show. But if I cut off her air, that would look like an accident. That's what he was thinking. He said, quote, I looked at her and I just couldn't do it because i realized i loved her you know uh but the two days later though the love is

the love is left i couldn't do it because i realized i loved her you don't love her where has the love gone for a second i could just cut that too that's the thing if you're if you're not fantasizing or not joking, if you're literally going, should I cut her? Which way should I kill her? Not, should I even kill her? Should I choke her with it, just cut off the air supply or crimp the tube? Which one? Hmm, what would be better?

Nah. And if the thought of, when I cut that hose, the aftermath that's about to ensue, I'm comfortable watching that because I'm down here too. Oh yeah, I'll just watch her. All right, I'll be fine oh yeah i'll just watch her all right i'll be fine i'm gonna watch her flail and just be like cool whoops what shrugging what what talk i can't hear you meet me up there and swim to the top no that's that the fucking plan meet me at the top just leave her down i can't even i could i i would lose my shit if i saw

somebody panicking underwater because i don't know what the fuck to do in the first place to save him granted he doesn't have any idea or reason or want to save her but still yeah this is what he's planning on trying to kill her i'm incapable of processing no i don't want to watch that at all that's not worth it no matter i hate the person or not i don't want to watch no i'd much rather deal with my wife and my mother fighting than having to watch that at all. That's not worth it. No matter I hate the person or not, I don't want to watch that. No, I'd much rather deal with my wife and my mother fighting than having to watch that. That's way worse to me than watching these two fight. That's on you guys. At some point, you just got to go, you know what?

I'm not involved anymore. This is between you two. I don't know for damn sure positive that woman did something horrible to a child before murdering that child. Yeah. That's the reason I couldn't see that happening. Exactly. That's the only person i would want to do that nice lady who takes care of your kids right really well objectively she seems great yeah that's that's the thing no one has a bad word to say so on the 11th the night that this happened uh the night that the actual killing when we got to put her to sleep here here's what what happened. Apparently, he says that his

wife refused to have sex with him, as she'd also done the previous night. Good for her. He claims that she refused him, and he was getting more aggressive, and she got mad at him and said,

according to him, I like Carol a lot after this. Why don't you go downstairs and fuck your fat mama? Which, if I was in the room, I'm standing out. Go fuck your fat mama. I would have finally had enough that. I hope she did say that. I don't know if he's saying that just to like, oh, she incited me.

But I really hope she did say that because he fucking deserved if he's saying that just to like oh she incited me but i really hope she did say that because he fucking deserved it and that would be a great line so anyway he said he rolled over and tried to kiss her and she and uh then she refused him and so he uh he kept choking he started choking her he said he said that she only said one word. And that was Dave. Like, why are you doing this? And he said that, quote, I kept squeezing tighter and tighter and tighter. And I held on for about four minutes.

And then I felt as she went limp. Jesus fucking Christ. Okay. It gets it gets worse here. He also. Oh, well, there's a a oh boy well we'll save that for a minute he said then he went upstairs or went downstairs to wake his mom up he woke his mom up to say hey here i need you to do something i need you to keep the three-year-old away from the kitchen in the bathroom for a little while i need you to stand guard in case they wake up because you know three-year-olds tend to wake up and be and do

things so he said uh yeah he was wow he was trying to figure out what to do here obviously um he said that he you know was planning it for a while then he goes into this thing here about he uh he says that i felt like um i felt like a big burden was over for my kids and my mother a big burden was over yeah right um he said that uh he and his mother quietly discussed the murder in the kitchen sat her down in the living room and said you know i just i killed her and you know i had to choke her i mean it's a huge pain in the ass and she said well i guess it's for the best yeah that was that um he says that his mother said quote yes dave i know you had to do it for the sake of these kids and if you hadn't have done it i would have moved out well god forbid if she moves out

then what he said at one point he planned to blame the murder on his father-in-law, his father-in-law. Ray. Ray. Good Lord. Yeah, right. Fucking. And then he decided against it, you know, because it's absolutely ridiculous to do that. No one's believing that.

At the end of his statement here, he says, you know, it's all about his kids and all this shit. He says, quote, there's too much crime and corruption and drugs and stealing and rapes and just every kind of crime i can think of in this world right now and for the love of my children and for my mother i had to do this thing so i can stop the pain and suffering good lord what does that have to do with corruption and drugs and stealing the fact that you wanted to kill your wife because she didn't put enough onions in the rice. I sacrificed her for the Carter administration. I sacrificed the beginning of the Reagans here. Oh, August.

In August, it wasn't happening yet. I was close. No, no. It didn't happen yet. This happened in August. So Carter is still president. Got it. Yes.

So anyway, yeah, for the love of his children, this was. Wow. He says that he wanted to make it look like an accident but didn't know what to do he said that they uh had not had sex since his mother arrived in the home it's been it had been two weeks since they had any sex and that he was upset about that and continually and then when she said when you go fuck your fat mama yeah he said that he couldn't take it anymore And she said, when you go, fuck your fat mama. He said that he couldn't take it anymore.

A two week pent up man. That's the trigger. Please. Two weeks. Get over yourself. Get over yourself. That ain't nothing, man. Yeah, no.

This guy is a, he's a spoiled little bitch. I swear to God. I don't like him. So, well, I don't like him anyway. In a statement, he said that about choking her that he kept squeezing tighter and tighter and tighter until she was limp. Like I said, he said when he was done, he looked at the clock and it was 1217 a.m. He said that he held his wife's neck for about four minutes, then wrapped his knees around her neck. If you got tired, I'll use my legs for a while. What an asshole.

He said he went downstairs to the basement there where his mother was sleeping to ask her to come upstairs. And he did say that. Wow. As he was choking her, he began to believe that he was doing the right thing. He said that he was this was necessary to, quote, get the evil out of her. Yeah. Yeah. He said and found Jesus.

Oh, no, he did. That was a few days before it was like the day after she disappeared yeah after she disappeared but this is a week later so well that's true he hadn't found it in his own in his own timeline yeah yeah he said quote i felt i was driving the devil out of her oh boy come on that's a not even try that shit you're fucking kidding me he said that uh and what i did was best for my girls i had a feeling she was possessed and i had no control over her behavior because she wouldn't fuck you how many times has people grasped for that excuse because she wouldn't fuck you right

give me a break dude evil he said yeah when uh at the time i thought i was getting rid of evil is what you say exactly what he said. So he went down there. He said that where he wanted his mom to sit, she'd be able to see the kitchen, the bathroom and bedroom doors and could stop either of the kids if they tried to enter the bathroom because he was going to be busy in there. He said that while this is going on, he moved Carol's body to the bathtub, to the bathtub. He said that he went downstairs again his mother came back up so she could keep an eye on everything he then cut it he cut carol's hair with scissors and put the clippings in a paper bag that's weird and he burned of he ended up disposing of the hair by burning it in the wood stove what the fuck is wrong with this guy man

somebody smelled that's what i mean i mean that goes outside but yeah wouldn't you be like is that does something do you smell why would you do that just an extra humiliation i don't know what it is that's far i guess it's to get rid of it i don't know man then he took two knives but he did it with scissors james he didn't like shave it you know he just cut it with scissors that's what i mean it seems like a humiliation or like a control thing i don't know what it is but it's grossing me out he took two knives a 10 inch serrated scuba knife and a 12 inch knife and then he began to dismember good lord her um dismember poor carol here he told the authorities here that he cut her body in half and cut off her legs below the knees and cut off her head. And then he said, okay, what do I do with all the insides here?

Because he was thinking he's going to dispose of a lot of this. Yeah, those don't package nicely. So he says, well, I got a garbage disposal gross and he takes what he could get out and takes it to the garbage disposal he said he was sweating profusely trying to stuff unbelievable organs down the garbage disposal and do all of this and it wasn't working real well and it was getting clogged up you know because it's not made for it's for crumbs of lasagna not people oh my god that's so much dude if you got like a carrot scrap you know it'll go right in there but not for it's not meant for internal organs have you ever tried to put a fucking lime

down one yeah never it never goes it'll go eventually there's a lemon but it's you're gonna hear it bouncing around for quite a while for a while yeah it really is you would think that if you suck your hand down there it wouldn't take your finger off immediately but somehow it'll take your finger off in two seconds but it won't cut off take a lemon wedge yeah it won't cut off it won't nail a cucumber slice at all or internal organs so wow he said he was sweating profusely and went back to the bathroom where he used a towel to dry himself off he said the whole time his mother remained in the living room watching him go back and forth and stuffing things in his remember she could see everything from where she is christ she just hung out um watching over everything he said that

he didn't believe that his uh he says he didn't think his mother ever saw the body, even though he said she did see him carrying organs around. And, you know, the body, man. Good God, man. Jesus, that's disgusting. Yeah, it's happening. Yeah. Poor Carol. So according to the statement, David then described how he placed.

Wow. david then described how he placed uh wow he says that he placed her into uh you know the chop the pieces of carol into a gunny sack and a duffel bag and he added one or two rocks to each of the bags and you know as weights and then went out between 3 30 and 4 a.m to dump them in the lake in four hours he got rid of a body that was wow um he returned then he said he returned home and dozed off for a while he said quote i felt like a big burden was off myself and my mother so you know you sleep like a baby i guess like that wow if you could do that and then sleep i can can't imagine. Jesus Christ. So then he said about he woke up at about 630 a.m., had two pieces of toast and took the two bags because he didn't get rid of them yet. He just has the two bags of parts. He took a nap after he did it.

Takes the two bags, which he had left near the garage, put them into his boat and drove to We Lake, where he submerged the bags in the water. And, yeah, wow. That is some shit. That's a tale, man. That is a fucking tale. I don't even know what to say about that. Did he ask, do y'all still believe in the Lord? Because fucking no.

Let's talk about the Lord a little bit. I'm not talking about anything with you. fucking know let's talk about the lord a little bit i'm not talking about anything with you he said when he got back to his room where he'd been sleeping where his three-year-old daughter was also sleeping uh he he said that he couldn't find her when he got back she wasn't on the bed and he thought that god had taken her oh boy like beamed her through the fucking beamed her up through the ceiling i suppose i'm not sure instead he did find that she had fallen off the bed and was sleeping on the floor, like kids do sometimes. So the three-year-old will flop on the floor.

You'll find them in the bathroom. Who the hell knows where they are? On the roof sleeping. They generally wake up and they're hysterical when it happens, but it happens. It happens. I've heard, like I've had my kids fall out of a bed. You hear a big clump and they're still sleeping on the floor. You're like, how the hell did they not wake up from that?

It was a two and a half foot fall and they're just fine i heard the slide as my daughter slid off the bed then the thump and then the blood curdling howls of a three-year-old who could not imagine being on a floor after falling asleep yeah what happened how'd i end up here my world makes no sense now it's just gravity baby it's fine what gravity i gotta worry about that too oh god it's so cruel he said that he then knelt on the uh on the bed in prayer contemplating uh you know what was now he's what he called an incredible calm that had come over him he uh he said that the you know the end of the world was coming what he called an incredible calm that had come over him. He said that the end of the world was coming, and he still believes the end of the world's coming, and even his friends have told him 1980 is the beginning of the end.

So buckle up, chief. It's coming. It'll feel like it. Yeah. They said that he was calm throughout the interview, occasionally became emotional, but he calmed down pretty quickly and got it together. He made a written confession, which he read, corrected, initialed, signed the whole deal all in on that. He said in this quote, I have just had a strong feeling that judgment day

and the end of the world is very close. Mount St. Helens is erupting this summer and my mother's name is Helen. And I have this feeling from God that we all have to do what we can right now to bring all the sinners, to bring all sinners together and look to the Lord for forgiveness. So he did this as like a beacon to other fuck-ups to gather with the official St. Helen of Mount St. Helens for the end of the world. What the hell is he talking about? What is his theory exactly? Somebody's world is is over i'll tell you that right now he's got like a uh like a what's that kurt cameron religious movie that they made people get like i don't know what's going on i only watched one and it was the one family guy made fun of it this is the only reason why i know what it is was it not fireproof i have no maybe and one of those maybe i don't

remember he's made several he says a ton of them yeah it's like jesus saves christmas or something i think so i think it's i think it's christmas i think it's earnest and jesus saved christmas i think they did it no they didn't do it that's possible can you imagine that that's good i miss jim varney jesus come on all right earnest hold on a minute get in here hold on a moment ernest that's how they'd make him i feel like in the movie oh jesus every time i come here oh no so he says that um yeah he needs to look to the lord he says quote i love carol very much but i'm only one man and i have my weakness and i'm praying to god now that I will be a servant for him and he will look after me and my children and my mother and get us all back together in heaven.

So terrific. Right. Yeah. Right. He said that he needed to repent for his sins and that the day of judgment might be close and that we all have to do what we can right now to, you know, make this all work. He said, look for the lord's forgiveness cool getting this cell yeah he said that i do hope that you find carol's body that

way she can get into heaven i don't know what the correlation there is he this is a guy who went to church once and was like i know all about it all right got it now this is what judgment day is it's coming it's about my mom and fucking mountains. And if your body ain't there, you ain't going to heaven, first of all. That's bullshit. Anybody, if you're cremated, no heaven. Ain't happening. I did a once over on the Bible.

I know so. That's it. That's it, man. If she's here instead of here, you got to bury her. Otherwise, if she's here instead of here, God don't know about her. Can't find her. How long is church? Hour, hour and a half?

You know what I mean? He learned it all literally it was a one week he went to church and he's got all of these theories and things that he's totally misunderstood it's like shit from like he watched like you know some tv show in the 80s and he was like all right in the 70s and he's like i think i get it now i watched uh what's her name in the flying nun show in the 60s? And I think I understand religion now. He another detective here said that he talked about how frantic everything was in the home and everything like that. He said that David told his three year old asked about where where her mother was. Hey, where's mommy?

And he told his daughter that mommy had a big owie and would be at the doctor for a long long time oh that's what he said how long long long time she's three she'll forget eventually that's literally he has no planning like a kid's not gonna remember their mom yeah hey didn't i have a mom at one point right mom what are you talking about you said she had an owie she'll be gone a long time she's still gone i don't recall any of that i'm sorry i'm sorry dear i don't recall a thing but uh grandma's here right scoop a cool whip for you if you want you don't have a mommy read the bible there's another guy who didn't have a mom that's right now put some cool whip in your whole milk and let's sit down and talk about jesus how you are a disciple yeah so he man um

they talk about there's a medical report about how she was dismembered and basically packaged for disposal in the lake because the officers they got a search warrant for the house and the boat he david also agreed to take the detectives to weaver lake and show them the location where he dropped the bags so you could try to find him. They were looking for a number of items from the house in the morning, including kitchen knives, kitchen drain pipe, things like that, serrated knives, fibers from the bathroom, things. Take the P-trap. Oh, yeah. Poor little boy.

Clothing from a hamper, boat trailer, pickup truck. Oh, man, because they need the garbage disposal as well. Jesus Christ. So they ended up finding that. They do find Carol, and her family was saying they weren't going to have a funeral until they found her. They said, we're going to find her, and we're not going to have a funeral until we do find her, because we're going to find her eventually, because we're not going to stop looking. And they finally get to put her to rest, at least.

Not in the way they wanted, I'm sure. Obviously. They get to, at least. Now, David is charged with first-degree murder. He pleads not guilty by reason of mental illness. That's what he's going for. I mean, I tend to believe him, but no. Yeah.

He says at one point, quote, listen to this quote, I think my mom was frightened over what I'd done and wanted to protect me. So she did as I instructed when the detectives talked to her. I began to like the detectives and trusted that they understood me. It never dawned on me that we would go to prison. We? While you were explaining how you fucking took apart, you parted your wife like a chicken yeah and tried to put the fucking gizzards down the garbage disposal while you were explaining that to four men with

fucking badges and guns you didn't think prison could be at the end of this no they all believe in the lord what the fuck you knew exactly what don't you know about forgiveness, James? If you say your sins, it's cool. Oh, Jesus. This is ridiculous. Just say them. Say it. There. Now you're good. $150,000 is his bail for him.

It seems like it should be more, even though he's not going to raise that anyway. Now, Helen's also arrested for murder. Really? She's just as much an accomplice as anybody. He told her beforehand, and then she helped in the cover-up. That's murder. You're just as much in on it as anybody he told her beforehand and then she helped in the cover-up that's a that's murder that's you're just as much in on as he is just because you're too fat to do it yeah that's exactly you're not physically able her attorney said that she should be released there shouldn't even be any bail because she presents no danger to the public he said that

she's a mother of eight or eight now i guess one of them died and a grandmother who has not who has been not been in adverse situations before. He said she has high blood pressure and it'll only be worse for her to sleep in a jail cell. And they went, she'll be OK. Yeah, she she'll get better treatment. She'll be fine. And if she's not, I don't know. She asked for better treatment. We're going to give it to her.

She said I'd be better in jail. Let's try it. Let's at least give her a chance to to earn her correctness here now prosecutors their thing is they're going by what david said david said that carol had been overheard by the mother saying that she was going to divorce him and take the kids away that was the whole thing but her whole family says horseshit on that they've never heard of that they talk to her all the time she's close with her mom she's close with her sister that's who she'd be telling about that shit so if there if that was true those are the people she'd tell and she didn't tell anybody that

uh the father said if there was a divorce uh ray said this if there was a divorce mom would have been the first to know which makes sense this is where the world uh revolved for carol the kids and david saying it's bullshit that this is to even bring that up they said uh uh this is the sister here phyllis she says somebody who's going to get a divorce isn't planning a garden for the next year good point they were talking about that she said that they were doing that uh that's the mother i'm sorry they were doing this uh they were planning on the garden in their last phone conversation like two days before that right turning over the earth for the next season carol talked about what to buy her husband for his birthday which was that friday so she was in this she wasn't like i'm gonna take i'm gonna

plan a garden buy him a birthday present and then get the fuck out of here that wasn't what she said you know like come on and uh also it just didn't add up also his daughter's purse here carol's purse was recovered the same day and the rings were inside the purse like we told you which is weird that she would just leave with no with the rings in the purse um now without the rings in the purse her family also said they want at this point they're going for custody of the two girls oh they don't want them to end up the hell else that's what i mean fuck her with his family god forbid so no way uh they were the ones initially caring for them anyway or they're initially cared for in a hennepin county facility after the arrest

and now are in duluth with one of his relatives so So they said, no, no, no, no. Keep that in mind. If you want to fucking kill your spouse, think about when both of you are gone. Yeah. Where the fuck do your kids go? Well, yeah, not. They should be with the Stebbins. They sound like really stable, nice people.

But think about that. Yeah. Before they end up in the wrong hands. No shit. Think of it. There's many more factors to think about. That's just one of them. But I mean, that's one of them.

If like, if nothing else, the other shit, if nothing else gets you, hey, your kids are going to be miserable. You know, the kids are going to be super fucked. Ray says we'll fight it to the end. It's been a nightmare for them. They get and they get all kinds of love here. Yeah, they're really good for them. Now, David in jail starts mailing letters out to people.

His sister said that she when she visited him in jail the day after he gave the statement, he appeared glassy-eyed. During the visit, he stared out the window toward the sun. And when he looked at the sun, he turned to his sister slowly and said that he felt his wife's soul ascending into the heavens now. Whoa. Yeah. His friends now, some are going to testify for the defense some are going

to testify for the prosecution they said that he was a non-violent calm guy who was a good friend neighbor father husband you know fucking car mechanic but lawnmower loaner every lawnmower borrower everything uh he was described quote, pretty normal but kind of goofy. You know, like joking about killing your wife goofy. You know how that is. How could you? You know, the goofy guy at the office. Think about saying anything nice about this guy.

He said, well, this was before. They said he was easy. Everyone said that about him before this. Like before Helen showed up was like completely different human being. Right. They said easygoing, mellow, evenllow even tempered very much of a gentleman one of the neighbors said friendliest neighbor on the block which to me is a red flag right away i don't want to hear that at all he's hiding something or either or he just wants to talk to me either one is bad now he does get a change of venue for the trial it's

moved out of this area because you know trying to stuff your wife's organs down the garbage disposal will get you some publicity. That'll get out. The letter in jail, the first one's written to a lawyer. This is Stephen Doyle, who's defending his mother, Helen. Now, at this point, he is trying to take all the blame and say his mom didn't do shit. His mom didn't know what he was doing, had no idea what he was going to do before he did it she never said it was for the best he got rid of all that now to try to save his mom's ass basically um so he says uh dear steve i'm writing in regard to my mother's charge and uh involving her involving or involving her with the death

this is just terrible writing of my wife, Carol, on August 10th. I'm not trying to protect her because she is guilty, but because she is innocent. I would try to help anyone who I believe to be innocent, and I want you to believe this. I want you to believe she is. For many months, I had been asking my mother to move in with me and Carol to babysit while we worked, and i had pretty high financial debts and she became very irritable when i would stop at my mother's house to mow the lawn or to fix things at her house i was hoping that with mom there taking care of the girls and us not having to get them in the morning to go to the babysitter it would make it easier in our on our financial output as

well as making it easier getting up and getting ready for work which is exactly what we said my mom loved taking uh my mom loved taking care of the girls and it would be giving her some purpose in life rather than living all by herself in her lonely world carol had in my mind uh in my mind in carol had my mind in torment before my mother moved in i was so frustrated with her that i had actually planned on drowning her while scuba diving how frustrated are you what do you have to do it's a lot of frustration i mean honestly like that's not like around the house shit that's you really got that's crazy on two occasions this summer we went diving and i had intentions on drowning her but when the time came we were enjoying our dives and my mind wasn't in the same state

as when I was thinking of drowning her. We were having fun. All the trouble is up above the water. Down here, this is great. Look at us getting along. We got no bills. Under the sea. Under the sea.

They're fucking singing. We sang a song with a fucking sand crab. It was amazing. It was so cool. And a bunch of other shit. Right. The con. It was amazing. It was so cool. And a bunch of other shit. Right. And the conch shells were open, and it was so cool. So on August 19th, when I made my statement to detectives, I wasn't in my right mind.

I had no idea I would be put in jail for killing Carol. What a fucking lie. Now, come on now. I don't care. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt. You're out of your mind. Right. You still know murder equals going to jail.

Right. You know that. Yeah. Unless you're, I don't even know what you'd have to be, where your head would have to be to not understand that. You know that if you kill someone, you go to jail. No, no, I didn't know that. Really?

Yeah. Okay. Even if you kill them and it was justified there's a trial to make sure that's the thing they still charge you for it no idea yeah he said i thought the detectives understood what strain carol had put me through like i told them she's being a bitch and i killed her and i figured they'd be like all right yeah we just wanted to make sure she was being a bitch oh she was a bitch oh no oh she was a bitch. Oh, no. Oh, she was a pain in the ass.

Got it. Oh, you know what? We got it. We understand. Jesus, I don't know how you lasted this long, sir. Let me shake your hand. Allow me to shake your hand because honestly, I wouldn't have lasted that long. I'd have killed her five years ago.

I quit it on the grounds of frustration. Of frustration. Is he out of his fucking mind? What strain she had put me through maybe you mean you're married right imagine if nobody everybody would be dead yeah if it was legal to murder your spouse because they'd put you through strain oh my god 10 years of that shit people would sleep with fucking machetes on their chest to ward off their spouse in the middle of the night so uh you know at times i went through a drive-thru with my ex-wife and she'd

be like can you guys make a mudslide and they're like we don't have that and she's like yeah but i used to work here i know how to make what the fuck don't you take a shift then you asshole do you work here now a 16 year old trying to make you a fucking ice cream. Jesus Christ. I will fucking put you to sleep. And the police in Minnesota, apparently, I can get away with. Yeah, you can do that. How many times have I wanted to strangle people, Jimmy? I mean, think about how much little bit of strain. It takes nothing.

On the road. There is grease on the floor. There's a whole staff in St. Louis that would have been left in a blood trail behind me. Because I was like, I said, actually, maybe that was my joke. I i said i'm going to kill one of these people i'm going to it's happening i'm not even gonna give them i'm going to stab somebody grease my cheeseburger no no i'm going to fucking murder these people lose my mind the little one wants you oh my god fucking okay so before we end up in jail for murder, he says, quote, I thought the detectives understood what strain Carol had put me under, and it never hit my mind once that I would go to

prison. My mother never realized I was going to hurt Carol, and I didn't believe I could either. My mother was sleeping downstairs when I choked Carol. She said something to me and set me off in a rage and I lost control of myself. Afterwards, I went downstairs and asked mom to come up stairs and lay on the couch to prevent Heidi from walking up and going into the bathroom. I had to go downstairs and ask for a second time. I don't think she believed me the first time that I had killed Carol. My mother seemed to be in a state of shock. In almost 10 years of marriage, I had never hurt Carol or even argued back when

she would violently lose her temper which was quite often which nobody else ever said my mother had no control over my actions earlier that morning she was looking in the newspaper for another house she said she couldn't live with carol when carol was being so nasty to her and not welcoming her there i can remember telling her to give a little more time and maybe carol would change her attitude why your wife's not welcoming me in her house in her house when i'm fucking constantly berating her about whole milk and half and half and onions and the beginning of this thought and plan it was probably a good idea of dropping the kids off with grandma yeah that's fine fucking where else that's good that's helpful this is not in my house yeah you're

a pain in the dick have her just having a bowl of half and half and onions in your in your kitchen you gotta deal with this goddamn lady um so yeah maybe she would straighten out uh when i was dismembering my wife let's see he goes right from that to when i was dismembering my wife i felt i was driving the devil out of her. And what I did was best for my girls. Carol had a poor relationship with most of her family. Not true. Her family is, was wonderful.

They, they came very, we see sometimes like, you know, they'll have a few people that support them, you know, the victim in court and there's some, this is like the whole family came together and had one like one united front of very rarely do families are they that amazing and come together like this so it was very really impressive they allowed you to marry their underage that's the other thing yeah amazing people pretty good people and last summer when her and her younger sister linda quit speaking to each other like sisters yeah i've my my mother has three sisters so like i grew up with constant sister fighting yeah she has gone

through periods of not speaking to every one of her sisters at least a dozen times a piece and i'm talking for six months at a time i think right now i swear to god she's in the middle of one right now with one of my aunts i'm in a year and a half i'm not kidding you that's what i mean yeah but she's still the ones that she's been she'll end up their friend it doesn't matter sisters do that sisters fight and they get back together so that's not a thing here uh they quit speaking to each other carol's anger and patience grew much worse over the past several months she had been very abusive toward our daughter constantly yelling threats and on two occasions hitting her hard on the back. I had a feeling she was possessed and I had no control over her behavior.

You asshole. What a fucking asshole. You fuck. I hate this asshole now. He's full of shit. Yeah. If he just said, you know what? My mother drove me fucking crazy with this and I went back and forth and I have shit self-control and no fucking conflict management.

And I snapped and killed my fucking wife because I'm a dumb shit asshole. Take me to fucking jail. I apologize to my children. I go, you know what? He had a bad day and he's a dead sucks. And I hope that doesn't happen to people. I don't like anybody getting killed. But to go like, oh, she's possessed.

Her family hates her and she hits our kid. Fuck you. You know what? go one further i chose the wrong team i'm a murderer i should have just killed my fucking mother yeah the pain in the ass yeah she's the cause of all my fucking problems and she's a heavy set 65 year old high fucking blood pressure i mean jesus christ yeah she's got much less go to go put a pillow over her fucking face and say i don't know what happened i don't know something if you gotta kill somebody i'm not don't kill anyone but if you have to kill somebody he's a murderer he chose

the wrong target everybody kill your mother if you have to kill somebody that's not the right thing that's not the right thing here um he also wrote his sister dolores in jail here and uh some of this is just um jesus christ he said that i'll just skip to a few of them. He said that I do worry about myself, but I also think God is with me now. At least I feel he's taking care of me. I accepted God into my life when I went to the evangelical church on the 17th. I was so hurt. And then the next day is when he went and confessed because he was like, oh, yeah, God's got my back. It's cool.

Yeah. You know, she was. Yeah. On the 17th, he went to church. This all happened on the 10th and 11th. Yeah. How are you driving evil out of somebody that you don't even know what the devil is yet? Well, he said, I was so lost that I thought I would die.

I was missing the good side of Carol and forgotten about that side. I've forgotten about the bad side of her that night. I thought the end of the world was coming after the big storm we had and i opened the window and i knelt on the bed with the window open waiting for god to appear in front of me waited about 20 minutes but he never came um i mean i knew jason got 20 minutes i waited about 20 well i mean that's any appointment you wait about 20 minutes at an appointment yeah but he didn't have an appointment he was if you have a job interview you show up 25 minutes late don't even bother just pull in the parking lot and leave your past 20 minutes you're appointment? Yeah. But he didn't have an appointment. If you have a job interview, you show up 25 minutes late, don't even bother. Just pull in the parking lot and leave.

You're past 20 minutes. You're done. You're over. They aren't giving you the job anyway. You give somebody, if you got a date, you're like traffic. 20 minutes is a traffic. It could happen. That's an agreed upon time.

He just opened the window and was like, Jesus, need a word with you. Well, that's what I think he feels like. And then in 20 minutes, they come. He's better than Domino's, basically, is what he's getting at. But 20 minutes, he's giving up. That's a hell of an assumption. He says he waited about 20 minutes, but he never came. Quote, but I knew he was out there in the yard somewhere.

In the yard. In the yard. Just wandering around. Maybe he's in the garden. He's us. We need to put a floodlight out there. Is there like a motion detector? Because this is, I can't see.

I know God's back there. I can't see him. Might be out there tending to his hobby bees. My flashlight. Do you know where the D batteries are? I can't look. I got to find God. He's in the backyard.

We do have some nice tomatoes down there. I'll bet he's having a couple. Yeah, maybe he's into the cherry tomatoes. And that the storm was a warning of the end of the world. This might sound pretty crazy to you no but for me it's very real i'll never forget uh what is this i'll never forget the love i had for her for so long since her death that night i've released all the frustration i've had in my mind i'm in something until you can't make out the writing with god and i've begged so hard

to god to accept me to accept her into his kingdom that i know she's in a better life with god i don't expect these men who try my case will forgive me and i can't expect them to god's the only one who can forgive me so i pray to him i tried hard to give carol a happy life but i'm only one man and nothing i could do can ever bring her back well you could have not killed her in the first place it's not like she got hit by a truck right that you weren't driving nothing that i could ever do could bring back the love the love she didn't have for the first 17 years of her life she's saying he she was miserable the first 17 years of her life uh she always asked me if i loved her as if she needed to be told that all the time, but she didn't treat me right most of the time.

And I got out, I got out of the habit of telling her that each night before we fell asleep. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I stopped telling her that she must've been so abused at home that she was so starved for love and material things. Because if I wouldn't let her, if I wouldn't let her buy the things she wanted,

she would throw her temper and say, I didn't love her if i wouldn't let her buy the things she wanted she would throw her temper and say i didn't love her she wasn't this way every time we went shopping but just when she decided that she had to have something i'm just going to she was 17 also you had a that's called a fucking a child you picked up a relationship with somebody that doesn't when she was 16 and she really you know she failed her road test. She had a real temper to help. Sorry. You know, you're 25, man.

That's what you signed up for. Yeah, I'm not even gonna read the fuck this guy. I'm gonna let him fucking say dumb shit. He's in good favor with Jesus. Yeah,

he murdered her. I sure hope Carol can get in. He's got a co-sign on her. I gotta get, I gotta tell, I gotta put her on the list. I'm gonna tell the bouncer that she's cool,

but I'm not sure. I mean, I'm not positive. You gotta pay her cover, list i'm gonna tell the bouncer that she's cool but i'm not sure i mean i'm not positive you gotta pay her cover you piece of shit wow so that's unreal dude that's insane december 1980 is helen's trial david testifies on his mother's behalf that she had nothing to do with the murder she had no idea that he was going to kill carol none of that um the the prosecutor said on the night of august 10th you murdered carol hoffman is that correct he said yes and you talked about it beforehand for months and he said yes and you told co-workers and your mother of plans to kill carol hoffman he said yes but she

wasn't involved right uh for the next two and a half hours uh they you know grilled him and everything like that they read the letters that we just read you in their entirety in court those letters going out if you're the jury those letters are in fury because they're i'm infuriated but i don't have to sit there and you know i'm not looking at her family and you know looking at this asshole who did this so and i'm pissed off so uh he said that he wanted helen to move in and all that sort of thing and uh he said my uh my mom loved taking care of my girls uh he said um it would be giving her some purpose in life rather than living in her hell and they repeated all that because he's trying to say that he was

you know you know a good guy he's taking care of his mom he tells also in court how how much carol had tormented him and that uh he planned on killing her but he didn't because you know that whole deal about we were having a good time and uh i didn't think my mother believed me about everything that happened with carol and that i killed her and all that sort of shit helen testifies too she testifies 60 minutes she did she cried through the whole entire thing. She said that he said that when when he was woken up, when she got woken up by by her son saying he said that he, quote, put her to sleep. He's she. Helen says, quote, I really didn't know what he meant.

I didn't know how he would have killed her. How he would have killed her. She said that she wasn't sure what he meant by the comment and didn't know what he was doing in the bathroom when he was in there, when she was standing guard. She says now, he says, I mean, obviously we know what he was doing. She said, quote, I heard water running and I heard a sound like a razor shaving. Oh, Jesus Christ. She said that terrible noise. She said that she stayed sitting on the couch in the living room and kept her eyes shut while he was in the bathroom. She said, I just felt chills going through me.

She said he asked her to stand guard. She also said, quote, if Carol was dead, I didn't want Heidi to see it because she might throw a fit or something. I would hope so. She might throw a fit. You know, it's so inconvenient when toddlers see their dismembered mother. They might throw a huge fit about it. You know what I mean? So what the fuck?

So, by the way, they're kids, and it doesn't really matter, but they're kids. I can't. Several sources have different ages of the kids. They're either three years old and one year old or nine years old and three years old. I don't know which. I think it's three and one from what I'm gathering, but I don't know what the story is. So she said that she didn't see any blood. She said that basically what happened was is he got back up there.

She said she ate breakfast with the children like David told her to and then washed the bathroom toilet and seat and tank cover. And she said, I didn't see any blood. So he somehow cleaned the bathroom immaculately without her help. You know, well, in four hours. Okay. He said it's fucking ridiculous. She said she liked Carol. Also, she only, well, in four hours. Okay. He said, it's fucking ridiculous. She said she liked Carol. Also, she only had a problem with her once.

She said after she moved into the home, Carol once told her to stay in the basement unless she was called upstairs to do babysitting. Yeah. Why don't you stay down there unless we need you? Okay. Because you're a pain in my ass. Down here is where you live. Probably in the middle of a fight. Always.

Yeah. You got your TV. There's a shitter down here. Enjoy your place. Yeah. So she said one time he said he felt like he could kill her because of the way she humiliates him in public. She said and then she said that she didn't say that will be best for the kids. She said, no way.

I didn't even know what was going to happen. I didn't know they were having so many problems. She said that he told her tonight's going to be the night she believed her son was talking about making love to his wife why would he tell his mom that yeah hey mom i'm finally gonna give carol a fucking business tonight oh no i'll give it to her extra hard for you ma fist bump all right there's no nothing grosser no she said the uh remark occurred in carol's presence when when he came up behind her and put his hands around her waist like tonight's tonight so it's even creepier if

he did that in front of her right without her knowing what he was talking about i mean her i mean carol by that when uh when the lawyer asked her why she didn't call the police, she said, quote, he was the only son I had. I had a hard time thinking of that. I squealed on a man who beat up someone once. He heard about it. Squealed. He heard about it. That meaning the man who she squealed on and had another man hit me in the mouth.

I lost my front teeth. So she's been retaliated for before against before uh when during closing her lawyer said look at her the killer of a mother of two kids do you really believe this woman would hurt anybody that she would sit down and intentionally plan to murder his wife and uh the jury goes to deliberation this is december 18th too this is like four months later this is uh 17 hours of deliberation and they say yeah we do think that guilty fuck her first degree murder uh very she uh you know she was she got first degree first degree yeah she broke down in the court they talked to the jury too and uh the jury said you know they didn't you know they said it's hard it

was a hard decision to make and everything you sweat everything about it we tried to find reasonable doubt but we eventually decided we couldn't find it it's very difficult to find someone guilty of first degree murder and uh yeah they said they were pretty much uh they said we just wanted to make crystal clear what intent was this is one of the jurors like your typical conspiracy case it was difficult to prove the evidence was not that clear-cut meaning whether she was involved in it or not. Shit like that. They said, though, that they did not believe David's confession at all.

And that was the problem. David's they believed his confession at the police more than they believed him in court. Right. Said this was way more self-serving. Now, during sentencing for Helen, her lawyer saying she's not doing well. She's confused about the system and disturbed she's very frightened all this type of shit why don't you let her out of her out of here she suffers from high blood pressure you know you're gonna put

this poor lady in prison and they went yeah we are gonna put her in prison fuck off life sentence yes so you ma'am may fuck fuck off. Life sentence for Helen. So there's that. Now, David, his trial comes up February 1981. Not guilty by reason of insanity. Prosecution basically brought up an array of problems that he's had, including sexual problems, money problems. He was mad at her family. All this type of shit.

He's bringing up all these problems uh saying that uh carol had problems as well she had problems uh with child rearing and money and all this type of shit but trying to paint her as a pain in the ass that i don't know deserve to be dismembered which is a really odd defense yeah i mean i guess that's all he's got so he's got to throw it all at the wall yeah um he said that you know she rejected his advances and uh and he said that um the next night after a pleasant evening the lawyer said that she came to bed nude and he says the lawyer says this man sees this as a signal that she's interested in physical relations or it's august and she's hot one of the two we don't know or that's how

she sleeps it's august it's fucking august too think about that might have been a sticky night you know that kind of night apparently you know he persisted and then that's what ended up happening he said uh jesus christ how did we get helen uh to his aid unbeknownst to me and hopefully to you well what's he talking about how did we how we get helen as his aid in the killing is basically trying to say that she's you know she didn't do it she no she did do it and then oh how we got it there is unbeknownst to all of us it just happened it just happened yeah so um they talk about this they're trying to say that david's really a good guy um you know they're saying that the mother wouldn't help somebody and it wouldn't hurt help him kill the whole thing is crazy basically they're trying

to say that his confession is literally crazy yeah it's crazy he was not in his right mind when he said it that's the point of what he's trying to do he didn't do this he's a yeah that's what it is he said that you know it's the whole thing he said he was ready to pass out from getting no sleep and his mind was not all together and you know it's the whole thing. He said he was ready to pass out from getting no sleep and his mind was not all together. You know, it's the end of the world and Mount St. Helens and it's too many onions. It's a lot going on right now. There's no half and half.

He can't think properly. So his defense said that they portrayed her as a jealous, overbearing woman who was jealous of his mother and all this shit. Like, that's how they're trying to paint Carol. And he was depicted as a man torn between loyalties to his mother and his wife. That's easy. That's it. He said that for years and years he felt a special obligation to help his mother. And having to choose between his mother and his wife was just years of frustration.

And it all came out at one time. Couldn't take it anymore. He said that he killed his wife in the heat of the moment about the sexual advances. And Helen had nothing to do with it as well. When she said, why don't you go downstairs and fuck your fat mama, is when the lawyer said that he was, quote, no longer able to control himself and took the life of Carol Hoffman in the heat of the moment, an uncontrollable release of his frustrations.

Your wife won't fuck you. Tough shit. He had to go, I'm sorry. I can't believe I just said that. I apologize. But that's all I have. Has he ever seen a sitcom? I mean, it's pretty standard fare here, dude.

Then he had the psychiatrist come in because he's got to say he's crazy. He says he had a guy say he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. He had this Dr. Carl Melmquist. That was the prosecution's witness. He said that he diagnosed Hoffman as depressed after the killing, but didn't think he was psychotic or any of that shit. as depressed after the killing, but didn't think he was psychotic or any of that shit. Another psychiatrist examined him, testified that he did not know if while choking his wife, he knew his behavior was wrong, but that afterward he became irrational and lost his capacity for judging right from wrong.

Okay. Completely. All right. Another psychiatrist said the first solid indications that he was acutely psychotic appeared when he tried to dispose of part of his wife's body in the garbage disposal he said that he felt there was something evil about the body that the house was rejecting that's why that wouldn't go down the garbage disposal that the pipes were rejecting the evil in in a liver this gallbladder is is evil and our pipes won't accept it.

Or it's just a lot. Yeah. Basically, they tried to also say like, oh, he had a tough upbringing in the, you know, the psychiatrist had talked about his upbringing in the orphanage. And in cross-examination, the prosecutor said that he was, if he was the only young man who grew up tough, worked his way through high school, who spent two years in an orphanage, the world is full of people who hold down jobs and don't commit heinous crimes. Yeah, he said Carol grew up tough, too. She didn't try to solve those problems by killing you. That's fucking pretty good.

Got him right there. So anyway, David testifies as well. He says that he made his confession. A lot of it was inaccurate. And here's what really happened. Blah, blah, blah. So prosecution closing, he says, quote, that he felt it was necessary to say that, quote, Hoffman will smile again, laugh again, hear sounds of music and see the sunrise and he will cry. Carol Hoffman will never experience another human emotion.

Nice neighbors, good workers, fishermen are not exempt from the law so yeah he's a nice guy that everybody liked but uh so was oj but oj got off and this guy on the other hand the fence closing um he says imagine being in this i can't imagine yeah he says okay this is his defense this is a tough closing he said look he's insane. He said, this is how you can judge it. That feels so bad for this guy. And this is not the legal definition of insanity, by the way, but he tried to put this in the juror's head.

He said, look, look at it this way. Which is, you know it's full of shit right away. He's like a guy that cheated on his wife and he's got to explain it away. Look at it this way. Now it's out of my system and we can start fresh we can go back isn't that great now i've had something that i didn't like now now i appreciate you so now we're being honest with each other i've had sex with 26 other women now now we can now we're honest now we can all of them there was no love in it it meant nothing to me now i know what it's really like to have

good emotional sex now we can have a relationship so so look at it he said look at it this way compare it to the statement made by the united states supreme court on obscenity and pornography quote i might not be able to define it but i can tell you what it is when i see it no that pornography and insanity are very different things yes those are very different things he said the very act of strangling one's wife when a child is in the room by the way three-year-old in the room while this was all going while the strangling happened um while one's child is in the room and later dismembering the body pointed to a psychotic mind he said people don't just react like that he's obviously fucking crazy duh basically look at this shit and then he said he asked the jury to find him not guilty by reason

of mental illness and said that it would be quote it's a courageous thing to ask the jury to do in the light of the facts in the case he said said that to find him mentally ill, quote, allows us to make sense of this horrible tragedy. I get that this is ballsy as fuck, but give me the win. I'm a public defender. Come on. Obviously, I've really thrown everything I got at the wall here to see what's going to stick. So help me out here. I went to school for this shit.

Jesus. Seven and a half hours of deliberations for guilty of first degree murder um yeah the jurors were very torn about him too they really were they said one guy one juror said that david was a good father good husband good neighbor good friend it's not like he was a mafia killer right it's easy to convict someone who punches his wife and beats his wife up a lot but not when it's just a snapping thing like that they think could i have done that literally somebody check on that guy's wife yeah that's what i'm saying now carol's family on the other hand these are just the best fucking people um ray said quote there is justice it may be slow but it's there uh they sat through the whole thing um you know

fucking did all of it here um this is what ray says by the way listen to this shit afterwards quote i don't care what anybody says david was still a good man and a good father i don't have any animosity for david i feel sorry for him oh right dude that guy's like he's that's like practical that's like what you would think Jesus would say. Like, you know what I mean? You don't have to look for Jesus. That is like. Dave, it was your father-in-law.

Yeah, like he, wow, that's. What a sweetheart of a man. I honestly get it. I don't. I get it. I understand what he's saying and what he's doing. But as a father, I don't know that I would be so goddamn kind. It's probably different as a father i don't know that i would be so goddamn kind it's probably different as a father i would think but like yeah like you guys know like my

great-grandmother was murdered and it wasn't in a nice way it was in a real shitty way you know she's tied up and beaten up and her throat slit and the whole deal in her own home and it was fucking horrible and like i i get what he's saying Like, it's not the person who did that also had a like, not that it's an excuse, but this person, we know what happened. She was a woman and she had a horrible life and she's 20 years old and a crackhead and having a lot of fucking problems and all this shit. And clearly now I'm not saying that that person should kill anybody. But I up until the moment of the murder, I feel bad for that person.

And their life is still fucked up, and now it's exponentially more fucked up. She's a murderer, and she's got to deal with those consequences. She's also still got to deal with the consequences that got her to that position. Exactly, and all that shit. So I get it. And that's a person that he had love for. This is a person I don't even know. It's a stranger, so it's a person you have love for.

I could see maybe it would be a little easier. But I mean, I get the sentiment like that where you're like, well, hating that person, even though I hate that person, doesn't help anything. It doesn't make my, you know, anybody more alive. Yeah. Ray bought him Christmas gifts. That's what I mean. He knows him.

He's yeah. So he's had drinks with him. Now, sentencing for David here. You, sir. Yeah. May fuck off life in prison for David. Without. him he's yeah so he's had drinks with him now sentencing for david here you sir yeah may fuck off life in prison for david without um no people serving life sentences here are be to be considered for parole after serving 17 years oh good lord so you every then then it comes up every few years so 1981 helen appeals on certain things that she shouldn't have been charged with murder in the first degree. She basically it should have been manslaughter and she was never tried as that and it was never given as an option.

So that works, though. Yeah, that works. And we'll find out what happens here. That floats in limbo for years and years. 1981, there's insurance money. Carol's insured for $20,000. But since David was convicted, the company was in court

trying to figure out who to pay. We think the children are the ones who ended up getting it, which I hope they would. To a trust or to Ray? Something, yeah. Yeah, to take care of them. It's expensive to take care of kids.

1994, parole chance for David. This is the first chance that he would be released two years later. Good Christ. First parole hearing, Commissioner Frank Wood of the Corrections Commissioner, for david this is the first chance then he would be released two years later good christ uh first parole hearing commissioner frank wood of the corrections commissioner here frank would determine hoffman was quote still a serious risk to others and denied his request yes uh reaction was uh carol's sister katherine said we when we have to relive this over and over and over again, the hurt comes back so strong. Yeah, I would think so.

Now, Helen is also up for parole there. Helen is granted parole mainly due to her horribly failing health at this point in time. Sure, she's in her 80s now. She's 80 years old here. And she is pretty much immediately placed in a Duluth nursing home where she dies shortly afterwards in 1994. Suck it. She was, well, she didn't want to be buried or cremated. She wanted to be chopped up and stuffed down.

No, I'm just kidding. That would have been appropriate, though. I hope they fed her a nice diet of half and half with a nice head of Cool Whip. Only getting 1%. You're getting 1% milk, percent milk no cool whip nothing uh two thousand david's up for parole again and they say this is the commissioner now that hoffman was a quote uh told hoffman that he quote had a blind spot in your thought pattern that prevents you from recognizing the enormity of what you did fucking denied so he's still there uh reaction to that carol's family

uh produced a video uh later on for the next one uh urging people to sign a petition that would keep him locked up for good like they really whenever there's a parole hearing her whole family shows up they write letters they they show support they really exhausted fuck this guy i know for them poor people i know he said uh and the uh rogers uh stebbins said quote when the judge said life that's what it meant as far as i'm concerned and the sister katherine said she didn't get to see her daughter walk down the aisle and get married she didn't get to be there for her three grandsons oh so that's sad as shit um jesus man now friends of david say that he's a been a model prisoner and is remorseful for what he did and should receive parole.

2010, he's up for parole again. And they talk about his vicious and sadistic crime. And in a statement, they say that he has, quote, not yet met all directives given to him in his previous review. And it would be six years before reviewed again. How do you not get your shit done? You got nothing else to do. Relatives of Carol have been still trying to keep him in there. Her mother, Phyllis, said, quote, it was a relief.

And she called that one a little closure on the nightmare for now. And they said that, you know, they said he doesn't show any remorse still. And, you know, why would we let him out? They said, quote, We know that in another six years, we're going to have to fight this all over again. But as long as he's in prison, he can't hurt anybody. The brother, Carol's brother, brother Rogers, says Carol was a sweet person. Part of our heart when uh went the day she went so uh jesus christ her brother said she did not deserve to die that way fucking obviously

good lord um david hoffman still there her mother says i do not want him i do not want him let out i do not want him let out good i would think not so the family says another six years doesn't surprise me another 10 years doesn't surprise me. Another 10 years wouldn't surprise me. It was a vicious crime that should never have happened. A couple of years ago, I thought maybe there was a chance at 30 years that he would get out. And the sister said that her, his sister, Hoffman, David's sister, said that his brother has shown remorse and said that he's been in there for 30 years. It's a total lie that there's been no remorse.

Anyway, 2016, parole up for again. The family continues to try to stop it. They were there. They got a petition on a change.org petition with 578 signatures before the parole meeting and gave that to the parole board. Five family members pled their case to the parole board for the fifth time as well. It should not take that many.

Man, I'm telling you, plus all the signatures. Poor people. Her niece said, we shouldn't have to go through this again. It shouldn't even be an issue. He shouldn't have a second chance. Carol never had a second chance. We're terrified.

Terrified not just for us, not just for our family, but terrified for the public. Which I don't think he's going to be in the street killing people, but I just wouldn't marry him. He's in his 60s now, right? Yeah. Yeah. Phyllis, the mother, said, I'd be afraid I'd be the first one he's going to come after because we kept him in there.

Then later on that afternoon, they find out that he is granted parole. No. Yes, he is released, supervised release in 2018, but that was only for a little while, and by now he should be completely untethered. Unbelievable. And free.

There is, the family still keeps this going, and they still keep Carol's memory alive. There's a Facebook page called We Speak for Carol, and that's their family doing it. It's got like 152 people on it on it that's not very much so if you guys do that and go on there please be very respectful obviously and don't be like you know don't say any of quote jokes and shit just say we're sorry but the show yeah fucking just don't swear no we don't know we don't know them they're from minnesota they're kind-hearted folks. They seem like nice people, so do that. I feel bad for Ray.

Don't you? You feel bad for the whole family. I feel bad for these people. I hope Ray is still trucking and living a strong Minnesota life. He'll be up there in age. But, yeah, I hope so, too. So that, everybody, is Corcoran, Minnesota. Yeah.

I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, you can tell us and the rest of the world by getting on apple podcast that purple icon give us five stars doesn't matter what you say who really cares tell us your favorite um what jimmy oh what's fruit yeah yeah you know what i do want to know maybe about kumquats maybe you'll come up with something different i haven't tried yet so different kind of fruit do that i'm i'm mad that 600 signatures and a whole fucking family saying this guy sucks not enough not enough for a parole board to agree i agree that's i think it's bullshit myself that's unbelievable i don't care for that too because i feel like i don't know man

it's one of those things that's a horrible murder jane i feel like he wouldn't have been in there for 40 years if the family wasn't so vocal because he, what happened wasn't like a pattern of violent behavior culminating in a murder. It was a one time. That's one of those where I don't believe he's probably going to kill anybody else unless it was a situation that built up like that. Like, I don't think he's going to,

you know, he's going to walk up. He's not going to break into people's houses and murder them while they sleep. His fat mama's not there. Probably not. Or to insult him. That's the other thing.

So, but at the same time, either what he did was fucking repugnant. It's horrible to have the capacity to cut up a person, right? This is what I mean. Whether you think he's going to or not to have the capacity to dismember someone, someone you love,

mind you, and try to stuff their organs down a fucking garbage disposal, that's a lot coldly dump them in a lake and then call the cops and go i don't know what happened to my beloved carol right there's there's that you have you have the capacity for bad shit so at that point yeah maybe keep them in there for as long as you want that's maybe my point is that it's not like he got blackout drunk accidentally hit a pedestrian yeah the man more calculate calculatedly dismembered a body let's say they got in a big fight that was over days and built up and all this and he fucking strangled

her and then he went oh my god and he called the cops and said i just i just strangled my wife oh my god blah blah blah that would be somewhere where you'd look maybe in the future in parole you'd look at him for mercy because he didn't try to cover it up he immediately felt remorse oh my god this is horrible that would be something different but when someone does it then tries to cover it up in the most disrespect disrespectful fucking way possible right and then just like i'll just go on with my life that's wild man that's a dangerous man anyway head over to shut up and give me murder.com for everything small town murder and crime and sports. Nicole Bobik on crime and sports, which was a Olympic figure skater.

Looks like a Barbie doll and until she started distributing meth and then she looks a little bit different. So check that out there. Every week we do crazy, crazy stories of course, and also get all your merchandise there. Tickets to live shows that are getting lined up for next year.

Everything at shut up and give me murder.com. Tickets to live shows that are getting lined up for next year. Everything at ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com Also listen to PSA Hate This Movie on Fridays. Check that out. If you want to follow us on social media, very easy to do that. We're at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Small Town Murder on Instagram.

Find us all over there. What else here? Oh, yes. If you want to be a producer of the show, not only will you get Jimmy completely fucking your name up, which will happen so many times, that's going to be there. He'll mess your name up. On top of that, you'll also get access to all the bonus material, which is really the point of the whole thing. Right. And you'll get so much cool stuff. Last week was the Good Night Sugar Babe documentary.

We talked about that and how disturbing those people were you know what i found out about that also is that crips yeah that they're members it's not what you think i'm sure it's not c-r-y-p-t-s that's what they get the fuck out of you i swear to you they still wear blue right so they're like a they're like a they're like a gobot crypt yes grip gobot crypt is the crypts they think the t is silent jake the fuck out of here man hillbilly gangsters that's wild so check out that hillbilly gangster bullshit we also talked about action park the northeastern park with the documentary but we talked about all the stuff that wasn't in the documentary that's honestly more entertaining all like that ball we talked about in depth and the fucking paintball all sorts of all the different rides yeah there's some the the dune buggies that sprayed gasoline in your mouth and eyes and the

old man's uh son shooting a kid that fell down with tennis balls yeah this is great he goes this is great right in the nutsack he goes it's great so listen to that it's a lot of fun you can get all of that and every single ever we get brought to every other week you get episodes bonus episodes patreon.com slash crime and sports anybody above the five dollar level and if you just want to be a good person have good karma and get your name butchered you can do that as well over at paypal using our email address crime in sports at gmail.com that said said, Jimmy, I know what I need. I don't even think, hmm, what do I need? I need to hear the names of the greatest goddamn people in the world

who would never, ever, ever try to stuff any parts of us down a garbage disposal. Hit me with them, Jimmy. This week's executive producers are Michelle Riley, Funmalayo Iboda. Don't look at me, man. I'll never be able to pronounce it. And they donated both ways. Thank you so much.

Oh, well, Jesus. Thank you so much. Clay Thorson also. Thank you, Clay. Melissa Turner. Brooke Crawford. Jordan Bennett again. David Dorito.

Amanda Holikin. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Hallie Kananen. Nope. Farrah Kahn. Riggles McTiggles. Zachariah Brady.

Claudia Parks. April Penny. Amanda Lucas. Brian Kinney, Kyle Carson, Jenny Linen, Becky Pantuso. I think that's Italian panties. A little bit, yeah. Like Ernie Pantuso from Cheers. Cynthia Munford, Drew Bittner, Monica Fyfe, William Wright, and Natasha Patel.

Yeah, Patel. Thank you guys so much for everything you do. We can't do it without you. Other producers this week are Catherine Brown. Is that what I wrote? Yes, it is. Jake Caldwell. Anthony with no last name. Destiny with no last name. Diana with no last name. Jerry with no last name. Stephanie Peschioni, I think. Lydia Plant. John DeLong. Ellie Hennessy. Adam Thomas. Joseph Morris. Louis Hodgson. Carl Kirshner. Peyton Meadows. Kim Hagen, Michael Peterson, Lindsay Johnson, James Marder, Michael Bowinker, Kevin Howell, Oriana Natsis, Tom Payne's hand towel, which is a disgusting hand towel. Warren Taylor.

Susan Olgis. And Rosanna Aerosmith. Happy birthday. I don't think that's her last name. Is it? Maybe. Maybe. I may have ruined that.

I apologize. Taylor Miles. Rodney Montgomery. Daniel Goldberg. Canis Lupus. Canis? I don't know. Renette.

Ryanette. Gadzook. At Decal Wolf. He's on Instagram, if you guys care to follow him uh sunshine with no last name amelia chady simone mckelroy and uh adam adam teetlebaum liz leatherland amy pohanek's birthday was last week happy birthday amy austin austin adkins drew jacobs ian woodhams uh valerie martin michelle Mixel, happy birthday, Sarah Kalin, and Naomi Zalouf, happy birthday. And she just got married, too, I think.

I think that's true. M. Zapp, is that nap? What did I do? Bap? Rap? Shit. I apologize. Sandy Sacchiabo, Alison Kessler, Ben Brickius, Megan Lee, Janice Hill, Michaela Kirk, Kimberly

Scharl, Matthew Parcell, Brittany Nyman, Jade Renee, Kevin Konker, Steve Uno, Dennis Zimmer, Diana Martin, Kat, what is this, Katzakian, Matthew Walk, Jessica Conford, Katie, Katie Medwick, Medwid, what did I do, goddammit, Medwick, no, Sean with no last name, Sheridan Robb, Nolan Hammer, probably heard Hammer time so many times, I apologize, Nolan, Courtney with no last name, name katerzina niegzolka i'm getting real good with that one caitlin mcbroom uh tony uh arzaga no i think uh barbara dylan schneider danny napier sue with no last name beggy leach becky leach hey you're trying i'm doing that's all that matters so So terribly. Angie Quigley, Catherine Glancy, Robin in Seattle, Steve Schnell. Congratulations again, Steve. Steve. Virginia Rhodes, Brian Jameson, Kia with no last name, Rachel Meager, Luke Molson, and happy birthday, Shay Molson. That's his wife, I think.

Daniel Hefty, Adele with no last name, Samuel. Nope, that's Simon. Just Adele. Thanks, Adele. Yeah, she's terrific. She makes that's Simon. Just Adele. Thanks, Adele. Yeah, she's terrific. She makes albums. They're amazing. Yeah, very, very pretty.

Simon Sarchon, I think. Ahmad Mohamed. Ashley Veo. Brendan Ables. Logan Wells. Shannon Rothwell. Emily Tidy. Dirt R.

Rohan Bajaj. Bajaj? I don't know. I'm so bad with ethnic names. I'm such a piece of shit. He was just saying yeah how the not a lot of tough names to pronounce this week i really was like bragging before he started this is gonna be so easy rohan bajaj and i love that guy yeah yeah yeah yeah i get

you that are transplanted good dude still doesn't matter your name fucked it up your name fucks me every time amanda emling uh amanda nope that's adam zyweek uh marco ailman fuck now it's gonna okay jessica hadeline uh hadeline uh no tim hewitt brianna moreno amanda weimar laura ebert lauren ebert see even the easy ones emily dyson brit Brittany Slaby, Amanda Moore, Stephen Webster, Austin Wilson, Erica Schaefer, Krista Weimer, Michelle O'Connor, Colin... Nope, that's Colin Mitchell. Randy with no last name, Kyle

Allingham, Mona Flores, Patrick Mink, Sharon Garrard, Garrett Gerad, Tipsy Scoop, John Mooney, Ginger Giant, Tim Haley, Brady Britt, Brian Shearer, Mark Hatlin, Chancey, Nope, Chance and Heather Harmon, Jake Van Natta, Amy Mathias, Mathis, Rhett Stubblefield, Elizabeth Dixon, Tara Cameron, Candy Morton, what is this, Garelyn Emig, Elizabeth Moore, Will Evans, Jose Sostry, Rohan Raspel, nope, that's Rajpal, Rich Paul, Samantha Sharkey, Gwen Guinevere, I think, I think that's what that is, Angela, nope, that's Angel Tejada. Catherine Powell. Michelle Bellinger.

Oh, God, it's Mason. All right. Cynthia David. Dita Vasquez. Robert Burks. James Herr. Jeeze Shabazz. Jen Graga.

Alyssa L. Kyle Whitley. Shannon Watterson. Alexis Mullen. Christina A. And she's got a birthday. No, it's an anniversary. Well.

With her boyfriend ivan she happy anniversary gloated about how amazing this guy is said his name once i don't think he's that great what do you think probably not i don't think so get your shit together i've got things to do if she can't even get as good as you're not that great cheryl postner sean craft margaret person uh method man that's supposed to be one word, bud. Wes would know last name. Kerian Sandine, Kyle Whitley. I think I said that.

Kata Hubbard, Chad Christopherson. God damn it. Paul Barrett. Tony would know last name. Kyle. Nope, that's Allie. Allie Payne. Bonnie DeMeo. Rachel Bailey.

Sophia Gorey. Kristen Payne, I said that. John Webster Boy. What? Lobster Boy. That's what that says. Christina Cost. I wrote that because it's just his first name, and I had to remember it one way or another. Dominic Villanueva.

Marlene Whitmer. Rachel Bailey. Clayton Fouts. Fates. Fasts. Jeremy Nichols. Greg Sims, Amber Dams, Caden, nope, Hayden, Hayden Torrens, Chris Reed, Aaron Pierce, Chris Ranieri, Yarla Fox, Shlae DelVal, what, Adam Sineau, what am I doing, M. Tulin, Devin DeMarco, Tim. Deep breath, Jimmy. I know. What is this? Tech Roys?

Teacher Risses? Nope. Marcus Polittle. Jalen Lawson. DeeDee Carter. Mark Spakowski. Yeah. Caitlin Leinart.

Leinart. Mike with no last name. Justin Lyons. Haley Buck. Andrea Gorel. I said Caitlin Leinart. Andrea Van Dyke also. Ian Thomas, or Ian, Lady Rachel Van Coren, Pam Johnson, Radina Strong, Chad Long, Morgan Uberti, Ethan Walkowitz,

Malkiewicz, Spencer Roth, Omri Paleo, Eric Wagoner, Mike Clark. I just choked on four words. Dennis Prather, Neil Anis or Anis. I'm sorry, Neil. Yeah, I'm sure it's Anis. Neil Anis is probably his name, I'm sure. I'm sure it is. Gwen Steele, Malin Makin, B, what? I'm sure off Jack Cornelius, Corey Eugene Kuhn James Halstead, David Finley

Pamela Greenlee, Ross Hetherington Chris Hedges, nope that's Hughes Grim Karen, Lizzy Stilling Charles Haggerty, Eileen Kokish Stephanie Donaldson, Stephanie Fletcher-Scott Spence with no last name, Lulu Mimi Blame the undercover Mexie Valdez Stephanie Fletcher Scott, Spence with no last name, Lulu Mimi, Blaine the Undercover Maxi Valdese? What?

Wow. Stephanie Fletcher Scott. I said that. Melanie Raganud? No. Casey Melhouse, Rico Suave? Probably not. Matt Romberg, Katie Pratt, Brooke Dover, Ben's sister, obviously, Chris Anderson, Lindsay Martin, Kimberly Baum, Greg Todd, A. Guerra?

Yes, Guerra. That's my ex-wife's maiden name. It means war, and Baum, Greg Todd, A. Guerra. Yes, Guerra. That's my ex-wife's maiden name. It means war. And then she lived up to it. Delia M., Jason. Nope, that's Jesse Hall. Melanie Somerville, John Walker. Jeff, I'm sorry, Jimmy.

Ruprecht. Probably not. Matt Westmoreland. What is this? Penamini? Panamini? Pangamini? Natalie Heverin. Patrick Marshall.

Melanie Somerville. Paul White. Abby Piper. Fuck. Deidre Rasmussen. Travis Olimpach. Olimpaw. Lauren Bedrosian.

Michelle Reese. Corin Rocha. Morris Warren. Rebecca Bell. Melissa Milne, Lindsay Wines, Ali Akey, Tony Vaughn, Catherine Blumenberg, Sharina Sweeney, Christina Daniels, Jason McFadden,ic downing kathleen hansard i think hansard uh maria maria jagir i don't she's got a fucking character over an e there's no way i'm getting oh yeah that's gonna be brandon cop pushing your luck there joe tossel jason allen michael mccoy kelly kelly walsh chris sluss anthony dodd rachel sargent sarginger lo Lois Taylor Randall, Devin Donahue, L with no last name, Cheryl Rich, or is it Sherry L? Chelsea with no last name, Abby McBrayer, Nick Parmenter, I think that's right, Selena Schmidt, no, Schmiditka, Haley Richardson, Jorge Torres, Nicole with no last name, Chloe

St. Clair, Donald Dalton-Mote, Rachel Lynn, Jason would know last name, Stephen Guidry, Rachel, nope, that's Michael Kogut, Paul Christensen, Michael Glidden, Mikel, fuck, I don't know, Carissa, Carissa Sanchez, Emma Tello, Lydia Plant, Julie Ellinghusen. Fuck, there's no way. Devin Wilson, Stephen Wolfe, Jimbo Bojangles, Dan Zinke, Caitlin Logan, Paolo Gilly, Jeremy Spoljeric. God damn it. Caitlin Logan, Peter Ailette, Dan Zinke. I said that. Peter Ailet, Dan Zinke. I said that.

Maddalena Weber, Brandon Wilson, Chandra Hildebrand, Sculler TD. Nope. Amber Bolo, Luke Guthrie, Catherine Lesniak, Kara Joseph, Orna with no last name, Nicholas Rosneau, Clara Zuthen, Vanessa Costner, Melissa Mead, Melissa Lander, Ryan Schlosser, Cara, nope, that's Clara Zuthin, I said that, Nicholas Rosenew, Carolyn Lesniak, Aaron Barchert, fuck, Jackie Curie, James Richardson, Allison McDougall, Pierre Normand, Samantha Benn, Louise Donovan, Kelly Delzerina, Ben, Louise Donovan, Kelly Delzerina, Chehalis Thomas, Karen Rogowski, Stephen Russell, Joshua Steiner, Gabriella with no last name, Michelle Kidd-Tackerberry, Michael Colapi, Corey Southard, and then all of our patron supporters, obviously. That's without, I mean, that's obvious. Eric Bogan, Josh Cole, Lauren mean, that's obvious. Eric Bogan, uh, Josh Cole, Lauren Whitworth, uh, happy birthday.

And then that's from Ellen. Thank you guys so much for everything you do for us. Also, just to let you know, shout outs are read on, on your initial, uh, donation and then every PayPal donation.

Thank you guys so much for what you do for us. Thank you everybody so much. Honestly, from the bottom of our hearts, you guys, it means the world to us that would you would give us a scent and every scent really means something to us and goes a long way so thank you we really appreciate it and uh yeah just can't can't appreciate you more

jimmy what if anybody appreciated you how can they find you can appreciate me on the internet i'm around there you'll find me yeah we're on there we did this uh to build an audience and it's really worked and uh it's hard to fucking force myself upon you guys anymore it almost feels we're forcing them a lot it's hours a week where can they force themselves on you force me i'll force myself on you i'm at jimmy p is. Just copy and paste my last name and you'll figure it out. We're on there. You see our names. That said, thank you guys so much for everything.

And you know what we're going to do? Yeah. We're going to come back next week. Yeah, we will. What about that? Us and Jesus. We're coming back. Everyone will be back.

Until next week, everybody. It's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.