Small Town Murder - #189 - The Lego Murders in Holladay, Utah

Episode Date: September 17, 2020

This week, in Holladay, Utah, a prominent woman is viciously killed in her own home, and investigators have very little to work with, besides some blood & a trail of Legos, near the body, and around the house. The case goes cold for 23 years, until another, even more brutal murder happens in Arizona. These things seem to have no link, until you look a little closer at the Legos... An absolutely insane story!! Along the way, we find out red wine pairs nicely with Ring Dings, that helloing people may not be all it's cracked up to be, and when you need to murder someone, find a babysitter for your 4 kids!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Holiday, Utah, the brutal and mysterious murder of a woman goes cold when the only evidence investigators can find are some Legos near the body. But in the end, Legos turn out to have more uses than just

building things. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. We're excited today, as usual. I'm as excited as you can be for death and mayhem, I guess.

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So check that out there. Quick disclaimer, it's a comedy show. Yeah. It is. People die. It's called Small Town Murder. I don't know how much more clear we could be about that. We don't make fun of victims.

We don't make fun of victims' families because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. And there it is. That's right. There's plenty of crazy stuff that happens around a murder that's pretty damn hilarious where you don't need to, you know, make fun of actual dismemberments and things like that. And so we'll have plenty of fun with that. And if that doesn't sound good to you, you don't think true crime should ever have any jokes even in the zip code of it, well, then maybe you're not going to like the show.

Maybe you will, but maybe you won't. So, you know, look into it with open eyes. But for the rest of you that want to have a good time, I think it's time to sit back, clear the old lungs and shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, this. I cannot wait. Let's go on a trip.

I would love it. All right. We're going all the way this week to Utah. Yeah. Heading out, getting away from the Midwest this week. And we're heading out to Utah. Yeah. It's a holiday Utah.

Oh, Jesus. Yes. Like Doc Holiday. Really? Doesn't matter. Double L. Double L. Double L.

Holiday Utah. Now, we were in utah about 30 episodes ago i want to say yeah uh but this is just this is north near provo and all that yeah i think it was out there this is right near salt lake city oh up there too yeah north central utah yeah this is about 20 minutes to downtown salt lake city so this is a suburb okay this is a nice little happy suburb out here where horrible things happen. Absolutely repulsive stuff. About 20 minutes, like I said, to downtown Salt Lake City.

It's in Salt Lake County. As a matter of fact, area codes 385 and 801. So look out for calls from there just in case. It's about eight and a half square miles, this town. It's a little town. You can see it if you look on the map. It's just on the edge of the Salt Lake City area. You'll see all the more congested streets, and then it's on little town you could see it if you look on the map it's just on the edge of the salt lake city area you'll see all the and a more congested streets and then it's yeah it's on

the edge out there in the burbs yeah one of those deals now history of this town john holiday or holiday here he was born in south carolina and um there was some confusion on his name for some reason people called him John Daniel Holiday. And then other people said he was just John Holiday. People fought over this. Really? If a man used his middle name in conversation or not. It was like a source of fighting, which is a little weird.

South Carolina, calm down. You'll fight over anything down there. Jesus Christ. Historical records agree that it was just john though that's that's what it was so whoever said john daniel was wrong and i'm sure they'll never agree that they were wrong and they'll sell john daniel flags 150 years from now at flea markets you know what i mean his name will rise again his name will rise again god damn it so uh he married katherine beasley higgins oh who's also from south carolina in 1822

in south carolina in south carolina they had 10 children fucking hell not bad uh nine of them survived holy so back then that's a pretty good 90 survival rate is wild for early child yeah normally like i said it's half and half by 10 it's like you lost half the kids that's why you had 10 kids but it's very much like uh a disease uh where uh you got you may be 40 and you lived through it but you got some lingering effects from that shitty childhood yeah definitely diseases you caught then and yeah i thought everybody was a bear trap that your left foot got caught in that and the the typhoid fever that you got or whatever the hell you died from on oregon trail i don't know living it was tough you were 40 but you got one arm you were yeah and you were lucky to have it yeah you

were happy to have it god damn it very thankful i'm happy to have this arm otherwise i'd really be fucked could have lost my right arm but i just just lost my left. Boy, I tell you what, I smiled that day. I said, I just became lettered about two weeks ago, and I learned how to sign my name, and now I'm going to lose my arm. I don't think so. So, very happy about it. And I got to keep my ass wiping hand. That's a good one there.

It's a good thing. And other things, of course. You know, you do a little. Not on the Lord's Day, of course, but, you know, on a little not on the lord's day of course but you know on other days there might be some that's my personal hand is what i'm telling you there might be some some a jerking happening is all i'm getting at now 10 kids yeah that's that's like i said you'd have 10 thinking matt five will die yeah 50 50 and if nine survived you're like fuck we have nine what have i done shit yeah unless you have a giant farm, it's too many kids.

So his earliest known, his great grandfather's name is John also. He's John the Ranger Holiday. Yeah. From Belafonte, Virginia. Now, the Ranger is also an ancestor of Doc Holiday. Is that right? Yes, he is. So the whole family is.

The whole family. Bunch of holidays. Bunch of holidays. Bunch of holidays. And that's spelled differently, though, that holiday. But I have relatives that spell their name with O's here and an A there, and it doesn't matter. So yeah, so there's also Ben Holiday, who is known as the Stagecoach King, is also in this family.

Like he protected the Stagecoach or he robbed them? I think the Stagecoach. Maybe he was like the king of stagecoach. Had them all. Had them all. Rented them out. He was like the U-Haul guy of the day.

He's like, come on down. He's doing commercials. Come on down to stagecoach king. Crazy stagecoach king. Come on, I got the craziest prices in town. You need a stagecoach?

Oxen? Axles? Wheels? Other shit they sell on Oregon Trail? You gonna ford a river? Come on down here to the stagecoach King.

Ben Holliday. I got business cards for the Friendly Indian. Bah! Gotcha. It's a magnet. Right? Look at that. Put it right on your fridge next to your fucking Little Caesars one.

The Stagecoach King sounds like the guy that sells the shitty Stagecoach. Yeah, yeah. It's a discount Stagecoach. The one you need a new one in five years. Yeah. No credit? No problem. The Stagecoach King king all you need is a job right 47 interest rate at the stagecoach king it's made of particle board yeah that's an actual wood fucking crumbles as you pull it

apart as you pull away you buy a stagecoach but it comes in boxes you've got to put yeah here you go you're like oh shit but it has the tools and they didn't put the nails in here these fucking assholes jesus christ we were gonna leave tomorrow almost here a little while fuck it so uh in 1847 a group of mormon pioneers uh where they were known as the Mississippi Company entered the Salt Lake Valley. Among them was John Holliday. He was in this group. Him and all of his kids there, I guess, decided they were going to be Mormon and go to Utah. Wow, imagine getting talked into that shit back then.

It's hard to talk. I don't know what you would have to do to talk me into any religion, but if somebody was trying to talk me into Mormonism now, when it's like semi it's pretty mainstream it's they have all state right you know what i mean it's pretty mainstream and it's whatever it's easy to do i just saw in it's always sunny when he had all the representations on the bathroom yeah yeah and they go the money's for the money symbols for the jews isn't it and frank goes well it's not for the mormons yeah that was yeah always the only joke

that every time i hear mormon that's what comes into my head that's what pops into danny devito davido going it's not for the mormons for the mormons yeah sorry that's a great fucking show so yeah they they came here and uh like i said that would be hard to convince now you just go to Now you just go to church or whatever. Back then, to literally be like, hey, listen, there's this religion. Now it's brand new. I mean, the dude's still alive who said he's fucking doing it. So, like, there's Joe.

You can talk to Joe. Ask him about it. Not only that, but we were going to take a stagecoach from the fucking atlantic ocean to utah yeah in the 1800s which was precarious at best oh it's a while yeah it's that's where it is it's weeks yeah people are gonna die along the way put it that way have you played the organ trail it's pretty much like that we're gonna it's not gonna be great right but when we get there you can be a mormon and it's gonna make you a mormon i mean that's yeah wow that's some that's a sales pitch to be able to talk someone into doing all that

wow you're gonna be different when we get there holy shit so yeah they ended up uh they ended up within weeks of their arrival they discovered a spring fed stream discovered i'm sure other people had seen it before yeah they called it spring creek and near now what's now kentucky avenue it says here now that most of the group returned to the main settlement in great salt lake for the winter but two or three people built dugouts along the stream and stayed there imagine holes through a utah winter oh just dug holes in the ice wow that is frozen rock that's not dirt out there that's like hibernating that shit yeah you need a pickaxe bears have a better setup than that that's

not good for people here so uh in the spring there's a lot of springs and ponds and grasses and wild flyer flowers around here so people you know people thought it was pretty beautiful they wanted to be there it is it's nice it's utah's pretty it's a pretty state so john holiday was eventually named branch president of the church of latter-day saints here church of jesus christ of latter-day saints and the village took it upon itself to name it uh they named it holidays berg at first and then they just dropped the berg part holidays berg two words. Oh, really? Two words. Holidays, Berg.

Wow. Not even one word. They just heard about Pittsburgh? They've never been there? It's his Berg this time. Yeah. Instead of whatever. They've never seen a sign?

Now, Holiday is the oldest continuously inhabited settlement in Utah because Salt Lake City was abandoned in 1857 when an army occupied it. So it's the oldest continuously inhabited place in Utah, because Salt Lake City was abandoned in 1857 when an army occupied it. So it's the oldest continuously inhabited inhabited place in Utah. This town. Yeah. That continuous part is the part that makes it matter. That's what makes it matter. Yeah.

So in the 1960s, the Cottonwood Mall was constructed in holiday being Utah's first enclosed shopping mall. And of course, it closed down in 2007 because malls are dying yeah so there's some reviews of this town in the housing crisis in the housing crisis yeah right 2007 it was like oh that's it economy crashed we're done there was a bunch of whatever sales product kings in there that's the stagecoach king he made it all the way till then he made it through the depression he made it through everything couldn't take the 08 crash, man. It just killed him. So reviews of this town.

They're all like complimentary, but snarky in a way. Like very, very much like passive aggressive. It's fucking hilarious. I've never seen everybody here is passive aggressive. Here's one that's three stars. So, you know, average. Quote, I enjoy that holiday is close to the mountains and is generally a safe place to live i do not like that the city has poor bicycle infrastructure

and a general lack of sidewalks and accessibility poor bicycle infrastructure that's a really specific complaint yeah that's a really specific complaint a car motherfucker it snows there you're not in manhattan you know what. Well, you're not in Manhattan. Right. You know what I mean? Where you're like, you're in the fucking suburbs of a spread out western city. Where it snows like a son of a bitch. A lot.

That's the other thing. When are you going to bike? Right. Six months out. And out here, it's too spread out. Where are you biking to? That's the other part, too. They do have bike lanes fucking everywhere.

How often do you see people on bicycles? I mean, downtown, there's some. But up in neighborhoods, they ride in the neighborhood and put it back in their fucking garage. It's crackheads are on one. That's it. It's people literally with backpacks where they're making a small batch of meth in. That's what they're doing in bicycles. It's people with DUIs and criminal history.

That's what they're doing in bicycles. It's people with DUIs and criminal history. If I see an adult on a bicycle with a backpack, that guy has meth. Guaranteed. I never trust him, ever. If he doesn't have a child with him or something, adults shouldn't ride their bikes just a distance along, unless he's got fluorescent bike gear on and looks like an idiot. Street clothes and a backpack, you're up to something. Fuck you.

Don't trust you one bit. And especially if it's like 10 years ago street clothes and a backpack you're up to something fuck you don't trust you one bit and especially if it's like 10 years ago street clothes oh that's the problem big baggy pants yeah yeah dude that has a whole closet full of tj maxx riding a bicycle that guy's a problem he's wearing a you know he's wearing baggy pants and a ron artest jersey and you're like okay it actually says artest yeah it's not even, exactly. It's a weird shit. Not going to work out. And it's not like he bought that because it's a throwback.

The numbers are all peeled off. And it's peeled off because it wasn't ever sewn on because he bought it at Ross for $9. That's why. It was an iron-on. Yeah, I like Artest. Jesus. And what small towns have a lot of sidewalks? You have a sidewalk on Main Street, and then that's it.

Get a car. You should be thankful that there's no infrastructure for bicycle. Your city committee is cracking down on meth heads being in your neighborhood. Less meth. Less areas for bikes, less meth. That's how it is. If they can't get around, they can't be here. You know what?

Part of our 2020 campaign, in addition to a T-Ball for every B-Hall, is no more bike lanes. None. No bicycle infrastructure at all. None. None. Bike in a circle in front of your home. Outside of that, you're up to something. I don't trust you.

Ride around the block. Get a mountain bike like an adult and go into the mountains. Or don't fucking do it. We'd love to let you, but it's just encouraging meth users, and we can't have it in this town. It gets too many options to people that drink and drive that's it they can now get shit-faced and crash their bicycle into me so uh all right here's a three star yeah holiday is full of great people good places to eat beautiful houses but it's also like entering a movie about high school students there are many cliques families that have been there forever plus people who move away for a time but ultimately move back to be settled down so yeah it sounds

like it's got some small town issues like that where i wouldn't want to move here if you weren't like mormon and friends with people it seems like you'd probably be ostracized which to me would be great actually this might be the place to go so you're saying no one would ever talk to me if people grow up there and then they're like i fucking hate it they get out and then they're like you know that wasn't so bad and they come back yeah like it's it's rough on the outside yeah it's crazy when there's people that don't think like isn't that weird it's nuts so i tried to get more but they didn't want to come back i found uh here's a three star holiday utah is a nice little suburb unfortunately the families tend to be very clicky

another one along with their children. Yeah. This is someone whose kids have been treated like shit because they're not Mormon or something. More so towards Olympus Junior High and Olympus High School. Oh, boy. Is where most kids have a hard time with friends. Or your kids have a hard time with friends. There's a lot to do in the city and lots of places to go eat or hang out.

Its location is near a lot of Utah attractions the city and lots of places to go eat or hang out its location is near a lot of utah attractions but the kids are shit right again shitty kids and parents here yeah here's one this person doesn't like this place at all this is a no star here none quote about the only good thing to say is that natural disasters tend to be infrequent wow that is that's but you know what? That's looking for something positive, really, because it would take a while to find that. The positive thing is when you wake up in the morning,

your house is probably still there. Maybe. You're probably still alive. And then it says, mostly floods and earthquakes with the occasional tornado. That sounds like there are more natural disasters than you should probably be used to. It's mighty hot

in the summer and impenetrably snowy at times in the winter impenetrably unutilized mighty hot underutilized mighty right there that's beautiful it's mighty hot in the summer boy and impenetrably snow because he sounds like an old time right you know like peanut farmer in one word. And then later on in the sentence, he puts impenetrably in it, which is interesting. So, yeah, occasional tornado. Any tornadoes are too many tornadoes. And here's another one here. This person is just full of shit. This is a review from 2014.

New Year's Eve, by the way. So I feel like he got home and was like, I got to write a review of this town. New Year's Eve. 2014. Not a big party scene guy, but the micro breweries around Salt Lake City are excellent. Yeah. No, they're not. He just got home from them.

He just got home drinking 1.4% beer. And he was like, that was great. So this town here, for some reason, it really spiked between 2000 and 2010 in terms of population. Right now, there is 30,793 people here, which is up 111% since 2000. Banging. There was only 14,000 people here in 2000. That's wild. Yeah, and when our crime happened, it was a little less than that even.

So it's definitely a different... It's growing up. It's grown a lot since then. It was a much kind of smaller little hamlet back then here. Female population and male are about normal. Age is about normal. It's 38 is the median age. Thing here is, as we always find in Utah, married population much higher.

It's 61%. Normally it's about 50-50. Lower divorce rate. You know, less people that have never been married less people that are single not a lot of single people with kids that sort of shit you know it's it's so it's they're mormons it's utah that's what it is so a race of this town jimmy guess oh boy i could tell you it's polynesian uhian. It's olive oil mayonnaise is what it is. It's probably 90% white, we're going to find here.

Whoa. 90% white, 1.3% black, so a couple of black people. That's about as high a population as we do, and to have 90% of that. 90% is, yeah. That's heavy. I mean, we've said in Utah, though, they can hide in the snow. So they're very excited about that. It's the camouflage.

It's the camouflage. And they pop out and go, have you heard the good word? And you're like, ah, what happened? That white dress shirt on, a little name tag. Oh, no. It's 2% Asian and 5.7% Hispanic. So pretty fucking white, you can say here. Religion and holiday.

Normally, it's 50-50. Here, it is 76% of the people here are religious. And 61% of the people here are Mormon. So it is, oh boy, it's very Mormon. I'll bet that's a pretty close stat across the entire state there. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's about that. About 60% Mormon, I think.

I'm not sure, but I think that's the count there. 0.1% Jewish, so that's not happening. 0.5% Islam. It's just Mormon. So in Salt Lake County, last presidential election they did, this is the interesting one in Utah, 41% Democrat, 32% Republican, and 26% Independent. That is fascinating. Because they ran like a moral candidate right in utah and

he got on the ballot their unemployment rate here is super low this was beginning of the year 2.8 percent it was which is like economically not good it's so low like it's the bad things will start happening shortages of of you know workers and shit so uh the median household income though is high normally it's about $57,000. Here it is $81,409. And there's a lot of people with a lot of money here. Three times the amount of people make $200,000 or more here than normal. Yeah, 43% of the people here make over $100,000 a year.

So it's good in terms of a place to make some cash. Overall, the cost of living, we talk about $100,000 being regular average. Here, it's $135,000. So, a little bit high on the cost of living, I would say. But they're killing it in terms of money. Yeah, but the way the housing, though, makes it not as great here. Housing is a $222,000.

Holy shit. So, the median home cost here is $513,100, which is really expensive. I don't even know what that looks like. If you make $100,000 a year, that's a tough stretch. It is. So you're thinking you're doing great, but if you want to buy a three-bedroom house, it's good luck. For $500,000. It's tough.

And you know what? If you're considering it, we have you covered with the holiday utah real estate report your average two-bedroom rental here i don't think they really exist much but it says it's eleven hundred dollars a month but i don't see how that's possible with the like i said i don't think that's that might be for like a shed or something. I found a four bedroom two bath, 2690 square feet. All the houses have at least four bedrooms because people have a lot of kids there. That's a lot of square footage. It's decent. Not great. Not updated.

Not amazing. Nothing like that. $449,900 bucks. My Christ. That is way too expensive for that house. I found a four bedroom, four bath, T-Bowl for every B-Hole. That's good. 3,266 square feet. It's for that house. I found a four bedroom, four bath T-bowl for every B-hole. That's good. 3,266 square feet. It's a nice house.

Clean and neat like the rest of Utah. It fits right in. It's just clean. $719,000 though for that. Holy shit. Which is too much. That's unbelievable. It's so much. Then I found another five bedroom, six bath bath this is if you want

to stretch out you need an extra b-hole your head of the church here yeah you can invite an extra b-hole over 5339 square feet so nice house beautiful looks like mormon tony soprano would live there like it looks like tony soprano's house 1 hundred fifty thousand dollars though a million and then another giant and then another house yeah a million dollar house at another house a million and a mortgage enjoy that holy mother of fuck no dude it's so expensive here that's unbelievable this is the like pricey suburb this is i guess they're scottsdale i don't know dude it's expensive that's ridiculous no i can't afford to fucking live there i live in a shitty two-bedroom shed somewhere for the rental price on a stretch so uh things to do here of course the holiday you got your cash poor yeah you're you got all stand in

a field and pray look at the mountain prayer no fucking money nothing they're pretty aren't they right go back in the house kids kids. Don't waste it. I got to get back to work and pay for this. I spent $800,000 on it. Don't waste it. Just go sit in there and get my money's worth. I found the Holiday Music Fest here, of course. Holiday Arts is pleased to present the concert here.

Grab a chair or a blanket and join us for an evening of nine performances from amateur musicians. Yeah, and do this sober amateur musicians yes sober too we need you because the audience is the judge oh god help us all audience judging an open mic of music bands oh my we'll be awarding cash prizes for first second and third places based on how loudly you hoot and holler oh no fuck my life wow uh the performers this night though let's find out stubble and rye yeah i don't know if that's two people it is and it's their real names because mormons love stupid fucking names yes this is johnny stubble and i'm bill rye or no that's their first name he's got stubble and he likes rye. I don't know what it is. Bill Finch.

Uh-huh. Okay. Paul Eggleston will be there. Okay. Hadley Nelson. Nope. The Cage Huggart Project. I'm interested.

Cage with a K, by the way. I'm out. How about Luke Hopkins? Nope. Nope. Well, the Cage Huggart Project sounds like there's people in it. These guys all sound like they're going to show up with an acoustic guitar and fucking make me go to the concession stand. Anthony Reeds, like possessive, like Anthony Reeds.

He owns something, but he won't tell us what, apparently. Is it Reeds, like R-E-E? R-E-E-D apostrophe S. Oh. That's what I mean. But he doesn't tell us what he owns. He doesn't know. He's not sure.

And then Tiga Hamlin will be there. Okay. So I actually found out what happened in this particular one because there's also a Blue Moon Festival here. Oh, like the beer? I suppose. I hope so. No, Blue Moon, like two full moons in a month. That's what they're celebrating.

The actual Blue Moon. It's not beer. No, it's not the beer. It's Utah. They had to shut that down quick. full moons in a month that's what the actual blue it's not beer no it's not the beer it's it's utah they just shut that one down quick so this is from colorado they don't go fuck themselves yeah it will actually be when there's a blue moon in 2015 when this is from what i found here live music will be performed by imagine the amazing beatles tribute band and by local favorites the saliva sisters that sounds disgusting i don't know they said

either one you can't as i said thought about like either one either great or disgust i don't know which one yet we'll have to we'll have to hear a couple of chords and we'll drug and reserve judgment because that could be okay uh so this in that year's show, they had the Charlie Jenkins Band here. Okay. Then they had 1520 Arts. Okay. Which is a non-profit for hip-hop arts group. Oh, boy. And they are the B-Boy Federation.

So I think it's a bunch of break dancers. I don't think it's to do with music. And then the Cage Hugger Project will be there. Found them again. This Utah high school band was the winner of Holiday Fest 2019. See? Look at that. They crushed it.

And regional champions in Salt Lake Community College's Battle of the Bands. Young and talented, they bring enthusiastic energy to the forefront and get crowds engaged. Look at them. That is a white child. What is that? That's a Mormon kid playing the saxophone, Jimmy. It's just a bunch of missionaries. I'm sorry.

No Mormons playing the sax. I don't know if that's discriminatory, but it's like the Irish shouldn't pick up a basketball. Sorry. Larry Bird wasn't Irish no matter how much you want him to be, Boston. I apologize for that. That is bananas. Yeah, Mormons shouldn't be allowed to play the sax. You know, they won.

Lack of soul. They probably won because there's a bunch of people playing, whereas everybody else was one dude or a dude and his friend. Yeah. Back me up, man. They brought their college friends there. They all figured something out. Lack of soul, man. Maybe the magic underwear

blocks it from coming out. Maybe that's all it is. Crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here. They're Mormon murder pants by the way. They mean, that's all it is. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here. They're Mormon murder pants, by the way. They are. Underalls are everywhere else. Those are underalls. Underalls. Those are perfect.

They're all the same. Everyone's got them. Crime rate, property crime is about one-third under the national average. So about two-thirds of the national average. So pretty low. But violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, is about one-third of the national average. So real fucking low, we violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is about one third of the national average. So real fucking low say here. Very, very low. That said,

let's talk about a horrible murder. Somebody didn't. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Bye-bye. to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity,

that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal.

Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Let's do it here. Now, this is a case, well, a a couple of them because we have to tell you this is one where it's it's a roller coaster with two loops you're gonna go through the first loop and be like whew that was quite the loop watch out because there's another one coming right there

make sure you're not you know yeah don't don't don't start eating a tuna sandwich in the middle of it put it that way oh jesus that's coming up so watch out here let's talk about it a little bit let's talk about a couple of people first let's talk about a young lady first of all here let's talk about a young lady named cara cara k-a-r-a cara lampfer we'll talk about now cara her original name is nomi n-o-m-i yeah That's her original name. But she changed it because she has quite the childhood and quite the past. She's born in Bangladesh, first of all. So right away, a very, very poor country, and she is extremely poor. She basically grew up in a very abusive home in Bangladesh, where that was considered fine at the time.

Like Bangladeshi natives? Or was this like a... Yeah, no, where she grew up. Like an Air Force dad? No, no, no. She's a native Bangladeshi woman. So that's just what their culture family... I mean, it's just...

It was about beating each other? It was a rural area and it wasn't... I'm not going to talk about the Bangladeshi culture as a whole, but it was a rural area and it wasn't i don't i'm not going to talk about the bangladeshi culture as a whole but right it was a it was a rural area and it was and especially she was born in 1971 ish we don't know because there's some age questions with her but uh she like whether she was yeah no i i think it's back then you could beat the shit out of your kids in america in the middle of the street nobody cared so i imagine in bangl, she could probably do it too. So who knows?

But, uh, she was, her home was so abusive in Bangladesh that she ran away at the age of 10. Wow. To India. Oh, to another country. That's how abusive her parents were.

Holy shit. She didn't go to the end of the street and hide in a tree house. She went to fucking India. I mean, that's, that's the equivalent of if you were beating your kids so bad they ran to vancouver yeah that would be a lot yeah right you'd be like whoa i really fucked up they ran across a border i beat him canadian i

beat that kid canadian i beat him friendly look at that so you're welcome. Well, you'll have a much better life now. Enjoy. So she ends up being homeless in Calcutta at 10. Oh, Jesus. So imagine the life there, what this girl went through. And then she ended up in jail at the age of 10 in Calcutta for whatever she was doing on the street to survive. I mean, at 10, it's not like you can go out and get a job in an office. I can type 60 words a minute. You're 10. You can't just walk in and be like, this is what I bring to the table.

Yeah, hi, I'm 10, and I don't speak your language. Can I have a job? That's what I bring to the table. That's what I got going on here. If I'm 10, I don't have whatever immigration paperwork is required, but I would love to be here. All right, this sounds great, right? That's what I do.

This is good. So she goes from being in a Calcutta jail to being put up for, somehow she ends up up for adoption. Basically, I don't know. There's a woman named Anna Lampfer, who turns out to be her adoptive mother. She's a social worker in Salt Lake City. So I don't know if she, because she's a social worker, has access to knowing about some sort of network.

Whatever the MLS is for adoptive children. Yeah, there's some sort of an Amber Alert. There's a 10-year-old in a Calcutta jail. New one on the market. I don't know how it works. That's your parameters. She found one, yeah. She's doing a little search for it works, but she found one. Yeah, she's doing a little search parameter.

Oh, there's one. Ten? Perfect. Right. Just what I'm looking for. Oh, boy. She's so abused. She ran to Calcutta.

This is what I'm looking for. But no, that's a nice woman who wants to take in a 10-year-old who's had a... People are worried when they adopt kids that they don't know... Like, when they adopt an older kid, any kid... A kid could be five, and they're like, well, I don't know what they adopt an older kid, any kid could be five and they're like, well, I don't know what he's been through. And they've seen Dexter and they're like, Oh Jesus,

who knows? At 10, it's at 10. Oh, that shit is some, especially, you know what they've been through. Horrible abuse and a Calcutta prison and fucking living on the streets.

Right. That kid has got my 10 year old spoiled and she's a bitch. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm terrified. Treating, treating her great. bitch. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm terrified of her. Treated her great.

Right. And she's still an asshole. She'll murder me. She yells at you like she's your fucking parole officer. Jimmy Westman. Pee in this cup, Jimmy Westman. And I've been nice to her.

Pee in it, Jimmy. Fed her a free meal. God damn it. You're on something. She's got soap and toothpaste and shit she's not homeless so this woman decides she's going to adopt young nomi and fly her to salt lake city where she becomes cara that's an expensive flight that's yes bangladesh to salt lake right that's not a non-stop too there's going to be a few stops in there you're going to stop all over

they got to refuel that thing there's a plane where you're going to be sitting with chickens and shit at some point, like a goat and a chicken. To get you to the real plane. Yeah, you're sitting on a crate with the chicken running. All your Amazon boxes. Yeah, Jesus. Oh, this is my adopted mother. This is for her.

I'll just take it with me. I'll put it in my backpack and just take it with me. I'm sure's in it'll be useful it's fine it's probably a what is it bluetooth something it's those things that go on the end of corn what's corn she's gonna be jacked about these i'm sure do they at least look like corn okay good i don't like the ones that don't it should look like a corn on the cob when you put it in the ends of corn fixes it rounds it off it makes it much better for me i can't i didn't even, Sarah bought corn a while back and I wouldn't eat it because we didn't have corn holder things. I'm like, I don't want them without the corn holders.

I want. You take a fork and you jam it in the cob and you cut the shit off. What I ended up doing is jamming a fork in each end of it and eating it like that. Same way. But I, that was only for that day because the next day I had corn holder things. I ordered them on Amazon. These will be here tomorrow. They were. that day because the next day i had corn holder things i ordered them on amazon these will be here tomorrow they were they were here the next fucking day it's like boom take that four dollars i have like 40 of these things now it's awesome so uh flew them

here with chickens yeah and and children right and abused bangladeshi children so this poor young girl here is taken here. And when she gets here right away, her mom notices that she's got some problems. I mean, she doesn't come in and everything's happy. And how can it be? She's got issues that haven't been worked out. Even if she feels safe, she's so far from home. And so far from home, this is culture shock like nothing.

Dude, I couldn't move to utah the culture shock for me would be overwhelming you moving to utah miles away and it's yeah it's right there it's like a fucking state it's literally sort of connected by the corner to this state like we could it's an hour 20 flight it's super fast i could never live and no it's a nice place and people are nice there and everything but it's just too different for me like i couldn't live there so i don't can't imagine if you came from bangladesh and calcutta how fucking different it would be first of all what is it 97 of the state is blonde which is a right away you're gonna stand out if you're you know 1981 and you're from bangladesh in 81 the mormon

church just started saying like the year before two years before that black people weren't evil. Right. Weren't being punished with pigment for their, you know. Being cursed. Yeah. That's like they just finally were like, no, no, no. We would like them to. Oh, they can tithe too?

They're okay. Oh, shit. They. Well, we. Oh, black people are getting better jobs now. This is. Oh, look at this. Look at this.

You know what? They're not so bad. You know, when did the jazz get there that's what i would like to know when did the basketball team as soon as the basketball team got there they're like you know it's not so fucking bad carl malone's making like eight million dollars a year we could get you know people seem to like it when he puts his hand behind his head and puts a ball through the hole i kind of dig it her cara's mom said quote when i got when i got her here she was obviously a very angry kid.

She had lived on the streets and she was very independent and didn't take instruction well. Yeah, because she's used to living on her own on the streets at 10. So apparently she had some problems legally in the juvenile system for shoplifting and small items from stores, candy and makeup and shit like that and uh how you do it over there that's what it is and it's a i mean there's a lot of kids here that have plenty that do shit like that so they're just lashing out but for her a it's how she was used to living and b she's also trying to exert her independence as well so she gets kind of you know in trouble here and there and then when she's 15 she kind of gets in more trouble not at the time but she meets a boy here uh who's about four years older than her dirty dancing

trouble she's kind of yeah well no not like that no not not need jerry orbach to come and fucking bring and bring your little black bag trouble we don't need that none of that shit right so uh i mean he they they uh they meet at a mall she meets a boy who's like 19 when she's 15 at the mall in salt lake and they become an instant item instant item here uh the mother calls it quote some enchanted evening syndrome like she met this boy and was instantly just in love and taken, you know, just taken over by him, basically. Well, if they're touching, the law calls it illegal. Yeah, 19 and 15. That's terrible.

That is, that sounds terrible. But I don't know. There you could probably marry a 15-year-old. I'm not sure. I don't know. Well, I don't know if it's Alabama or not. I don't think so. They probably want you to be 18, I think.

I think they do. They value education. You probably have to get out of school first. Yeah, I think you've got it's Alabama or not. I don't think so. They probably want you to be 18, I think. I think they do. They value education. You probably have to get out of school first. I think you've got to get out of school first, and then within six months, they require an ultrasound. And you do your mission. Yeah, they need to do that. They've got to see how that works. The standard Hyman check.

They do that at roadblocks there. They just, cops do that on the side of the road. At like 2 a.m. Registration in Hyman. It's a standard registration in Hyman check, ma'am. I don't understand the problem. Is this a field sobriety check? No, no, no, no.

Get out and bend over. Snap. What? For Christ's sake. I know you haven't been drinking. The beer's 1.2%. You'd be pissing right now if you were drunk because you'd have had to drink so much of it. You'd have to run from the car to pee.

So I assume you're not drunk. We've it uh chemically impossible for you to get drunk pretty cool so get out and bend over yeah let's go see if there's a there's a screen in there let's see what's going on there let me see what you got going on let's make sure the lock's on the screen door that's all we're saying let's see the mucus. Make sure the latch is still a little attached. So, all right, now that we've said a bunch of disgusting things. Right. Well, I don't know. We're sort of just making fun of it. The church is rather insensitive to women, so it's not us saying it.

So, you know what? That's not offensive. Unless you're a Mormon church official, and then feel free to be offended by it, and contact us, and we'll tell you to eat dicks. And go ahead and also contact us if you've actually done a hymen check. Please, God, no. And you're part of that church. Oh, God, no.

We don't. Don't. That's just too depressing. I don't want to know about it. I want to know who you are and I'm sending the police to you. That's right. To help you. So she meets, the boy she meets is John Edward Sansing.

H-R-S-A-N-S-I-N-G, Sansing. He is born in 1967, so February of 67. He's about four years older than her-ish because we don't know her exact age. She could be a couple years older than she says she is. We're not positive because apparently the records in rural Bangladesh for births in the 60s and early 70s weren't terrific. Probably classified under dodgy. Yeah.

Now, Sanzing here, John, he is known as a kid. His nickname is Cotton Top, his parents call him. He's a very light, kind of gingery kind of dude, that kind of cat. He's a little guy. He's about 5'6". She's about 5' tall, thin and little little guy he's about five six and she's about five foot tall thin and little and he's about five foot six so they're they're breeding downward it's a cute little couple it's a cute little tiny couple here so um his early years here he's had some issues as

well his early years were spent in alabama okay so he went from alabama to utah yeah so he only knows religious fundamentalism nothing else in his fucking world here it's the only thing he's ever been exposed to brian brimstone or potato salad on sunday that's it with no salt right potato salad and don't forget the fucking salt and pepper because you're gonna need it your mom and dad fight soberly that's it it. Yeah. Sober fighting. That's ugly. No excuses. Nothing. No excuses.

You can't even get in the wake up. You can't. A couple too many. I'm so sorry. I called your mom that. Oh, man. Stone sober. Watch like 90 Day Fiance.

Most of the arguments like the next day, they're like, I had a couple too many to drink and I got carried away. And I got to understand. that's understandable me too and it got out of hand like if you're this stone sober there's no excuses you just wake up open your eyes and look at each other like i still feel exactly the same because i wasn't fucked up at all when i thought about it the first time so it just never goes away and i can't even have coffee to try to perk this god damn it i think they allow caffeine now i thought they did oh i thought they did i don't know i i've never heard that sworn they adjust really they'll adjust to whatever they're like caffeine they're like starbucks is fucking great what are you talking about we love starbucks what pepsi coal is

crushing because of them right i'm not because of, but I think it's based out of there. Invested by? Yeah, because it's, well, it's based there. They have some in the basin in New York, too. I'm just saying, if a church has interest in your product selling well, I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true or not, though. But I know they expanded there,

and the church has been kind of okay with it, I think. Pepsi might have tithed a bit so uh now john here sanzing his parents were divorced his mother stayed in alabama and his father moved to salt lake city yeah and he's like shit who do you want to live with fucking neither neither of you christ can somebody move somewhere normal an ant in at least florida somewhere yeah just moved to atlanta or something i'll stay in the south um so the the uh a relative said quote she finally gave up on him and shipped him out to her to his father in 1984 he was a thief and a drug addict and even at that time she couldn't keep him out of juvenile detention she was hoping that she could

get him away from his criminal behavior with his dad in utah but that didn't happen i'd like to know what they call out call a fucking drug addict though that's what i mean yeah probably smoking weed probably smoking weed drinking cheap wine or something he's drinking mad dog 2020 and smoking weed um but yeah no he gets into hard drugs pretty fast right yeah by the time he's in utah he picks up pretty good drug habits and 84 when he moved there that's right when he's in utah he picks up pretty good drug habits and 84 when he moved there that's right when he met cara too so he moved there meets her right away and they kind of fall into a real real bonnie and clyde type of relationship here big time this is more like more like natural born killers actually probably uh the way they are yeah like wait till

you hear about these two they They're very fucking interesting. They talk about how he basically had no relationship with his biological father until he moved to Utah, and then they didn't get along very well. He drops out of high school, had shitty grades, which we see a lot here. And he's had problems and everything, too. So maybe high school isn't his major concern concern as we've all known kids like that. Always into drugs, though. From 14, 15, anything he could get his hands on. Really?

Anything. Weed, coke, this, that. He'll do heroin. He doesn't give a shit. Whatever he can get his hands on, he'll do. Just likes drugs. So I don't know what he's trying to dull here, but wow, is he trying hard. Yeah, it doesn't sound like a drug addict. It sounds like somebody

that just doesn't like whatever is happening around him. Yeah, he's very enthusiastic for drugs. Also, though, he's also, he gets very addicted to these drugs very quickly, so we don't know if he's got an alcoholism problem in his family, and he's kind of already open to that sort of shit, to addiction, you know, physically.

If his brain is kind of wired that way, we're not sure for this sort of thing um yeah so i love he's a thief and a drug addict and the relative says there so uh he received probationary sentences multiple times he got probation in 1985 he was convicted for burglary in salt lake in 87 he was convicted for spousal abuse after he was uh married cara and started beating the crap out of her uh yeah he uh they got married pretty early obviously and um yeah started beating the shit out of her immediately well they did drugs together and they'd both be high and they'd get in fights she's arrested at one point for hitting him in the head with a frying

pan so they're arrested multiple times for beating each other up and fighting. And they smoke crack together and then they come down and they start fighting and they fight each other all the time. That's what happens. You ever seen, if you live in like a city, have you ever seen obvious crackheads screaming at each other in the streets?

Yeah, that's a hard life to have. It's hard enough to maintain a relationship, but if you're both trying to figure out how to get crack mixed or else you're jittery, that's even worse. I get hitting people with stuff. I can see it happening in an argument. But a pan is... Well, she said he hit her, and then she responded with a frying pan to the head to get him to stop. That's not defending yourself.

That's trying to murder somebody. Yeah. But if you've been beat up a whole bunch of times by someone who's bigger than you, and physically you can't fight back, and you've got a frying pan, bang, that stops that. End of assault. Ain't hitting me anymore today. I don't ever want to. I would never hit anybody with that.

I wouldn't either. I'd be afraid to fracture a skull and kill somebody. But if I was in a position of being abused all the time i might have a different uh i might be fighting for my life and this is a person who she grew up on the streets in calcutta she's she fights for her life right like she's gotta she's hit somebody with a dog before that's yeah just picked it right up by the fucking head and just whack somebody to death there you go and beat him and toss the corpse, the dog corpse on top of him and spit. Some dog that's like patchy hairless. If only she could drop a couple of C notes on him like Sonny Corleone, that'd be even better.

I don't have money, but I have spit. I have spit. So yeah, 87 for spousal abuse. 1993, he's also convicted for aggravated assault. So we can definitely see an escalation here. There was a second degree felony burglary charge in there in the late 80s. Also convicted for aggravated assault. So we can definitely see an escalation here. There was a second degree felony burglary charge in there in the late 80s. And for that one, the judge sent him to prison for a diagnostic evaluation that lasted for 45 days to see whether they should what they should do with him. Basically, should they sentence him to this?

They sentence him to adult prison, juvenile jail, probation? A lot of options. And they get the results of this. The judge sentences him to probation after he's been in there for 45 days. So he does that. Also, he's got aggravated assault, spousal abuse, two different burglary convictions. He's got a lot going on. They're not keeping track of this? He's like a young guy. That's the thing. Burglary

is burglary. Burglary is bad and then when you escalate that to aggravated assault, now you're talking about you're burglarizing and you're willing to use violence too. So who knows if anyone ever puts those two things together it's fucking chocolate and peanut butter. They're going to be the world's in trouble.

Yeah, it's violence and burglary go together well for people who don't give a shit about the guy that uh comes sarjevsky from the uh cheshire murders he did that shit yeah where he was just like burglarized and then he started that's how a lot of people have he was like that's easier yeah he's like well that's easier i don't have to make sure they're not home now i can just hit him oh fuck i'll just kill him it's it's that's the escalation here. So it's weird, man. Kara's sister says that her adoptive sister, who knows her very well and talk to her a lot and everything. She says that she was kind of kind of open for a kind of a violent, controlling person.

That's kind of in her culture. That's what she grew up kind of seeing in her family. And that was kind of the thing. Her sister says, quote, and this is not me saying it. This is her sister talking about talking to her about it. So someone who knows something, quote, in the East Indian culture, the husband is the one in charge who is always right and can even tell the wife to kill herself if she didn't bring enough dowry. She was definitely of that culture. She wouldn't leave him despite all the abuse. So her sister says this if she didn't bring enough dowry she was definitely of that culture she wouldn't leave him despite all the abuse so her sister says this is she doesn't have an american woman mindset

she has a bangladeshi woman mindset like from childhood still even though she's being told that you don't have to put up with this stuff that's it's it's ingrained in her brain like that which is hard to break. Yeah, especially. I mean, she luckily doesn't have contact with her family over there, but even they would put pressure on her. My grandmother, Italian grandma, when she divorced my grandfather originally, she people fucking came from Italy to try to convince her to not get a divorce. Like it was a they were it was a fucking scandal. to not get a divorce like it was a they were it was a fucking scandal people flew over an ocean to try to talk sense into her to the point where she had to leave with her kids to move to california to get away from everybody for six months because they were people were bothering

her so much to not get a divorce culture matters just let them beat the shit out of you and be drunk all the time what do you care like you know you have a nice home who cares that was the basic premise of the whole thing so culture's thing. So culture is a big deal. Culture is a big deal. And I said, that's that culture. I don't know what what the Bangladeshi culture is, but it sounds worse in terms of that, you know, for women anyway. So they encourage you.

He can tell her to kill herself. She doesn't bring enough dowry. Enough dowry. That's what. So bring enough dowry. So that I don't understand because your dad pays that. You would know you pay that. You buy her from the parents. You have to pay dowry so that I don't understand. It's like your dad pays that, right? No, you pay that.

You buy her from the parents. You have to pay dowry. The parents don't pay shit. You pay dowry to the parents for the woman. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking it's the family paying you to marry her. Why would you kill her if you didn't have to pay a lot for her? I don't understand that. Is it the opposite there where the family pays you to take this pain in the ass off their hands?

I don't know. I know in like Thailand, you pay for the woman, you pay the woman's family. And all these cultures in African cultures, it's like that. Yeah, I don't know. So once again, I know all this from what? 90 Day Fiancé. The only fucking knowledge of culture I have any any a bit of. So now the sister said that she called the State Department of Child Protective Services in Utah many times about all the violence and nothing was done about it because this is when she was still underage but married.

So she would call about that. She says the sister says, I also got Kara involved with a program called Women in Jeopardy, but that lasted all of 30 minutes. When John found out and Jen checked her out, that was that. So she said there was so much abuse that, like I said, she would be arrested sometimes also because the fights would get so crazy. One of the instances was knocking him out with a frying pan. And, you know, people saw that and called the cops. That noise must have been great the cops that noise must have been great though that must have been awesome imagine for her the satisfaction right dung okay was it

cast iron or was it like a plastic rubber handle you know what i mean some sort of shitty uh a cast iron's good because it's big but she'd have a hard time swinging that thing so you want like one of those like teflon that you can fucking whip fast. You could be like, bop, bop. You could fucking crush somebody with one of those. Fuck. It's kind of like they say when you hit somebody with a baseball bat. Yeah.

If you're defensive, you want to hit them with the handle end because you can whip it harder. Okay. And it's denser. Well, you don't have to take such a big swing. Right. If you have something that you wanted to bash with it, obviously, the best way is to hold it by the handle. If you have something that you wanted to bash with it, obviously, the best way is to hold it by the handle. But if you're worried about somebody attacking you, the best way is to be able to have most control over it.

So it's like choking up on it the opposite way. And it's got a little ball at the end. Yeah, yeah. Fuck, man. That seems like it would hurt. It would hurt. And then you can flip it around. Hell yeah. These are the things you're taught as a child.

We're up from so uh now in the mid-1980s here 1986 to be exact kara was pregnant with their first child she's 16 yeah which is why they got married which is why she was allowed to marry him because she's already pregnant anyway and they moved in with her sister okay okay i guess we didn't want to live with the parents her sister other sister says, quote, he stole my sister's purse from the kitchen table and they went around the city taking money from ATMs. I had a friend who was his social worker and she told me that he should have been locked up way back then. Wow. So, yeah, as kids. 21?

He's like. With a 16-year-old. In America, that's called a loser that's a loser a 16 year old pregnant wife right and he's stealing from that woman's sister who's letting them stay there to go take money out of atms this is this is some trashy shit right here that this this guy is pure trash um now he ended up having a series of jobs where he would always get fired for stealing from his employers, basically. And Kara would get fired, too, because he would make her steal from her employers as well. So they went through tons of jobs where they got fired for stealing from the register and shit like that.

Because they're just short-sighted. And they're on drugs, both of them. They're into drugs, so they need cash. That's the cash now, we'll fix everything and we'll worry about the consequences later. Yeah, that's it. Like, what's his name said here this week on Crime and Sports? Like Michael Doak said.

The past is the past, the future is the future, the present. What is it? Well, if the past is the past, the future isn't here yet and the present is linguine and clam sauce. You know what I'm saying? The past is the past, the future isn't here yet and the present is linguine and clam sauce well you know what i'm saying past the past the future's not here yet and there's still uh about 40 bucks in that cash register about four yeah take it i still got a couple of crack rocks to smoke so this is good smoking utah crack oh boy what do you think utah is it watered down like the beer can you imagine extra stepped on yeah it's 98 percent cocaine yeah it's nine i was gonna say

it's 96.8 fucking baking soda 96.8 baking soda great look at this i mean the coke they have coke but you gotta sniff like fucking three eight balls to really get a buzz i gotta tell you eventually uh you get it past the blood that's streaming out. Just from all the snorting you're doing. It eventually coagulates the blood. And then you're all better. And then you're stoned. You're fucked up after that.

You're all so clotted. So you're fine. Jesus Christ. So February 1991. This is in Holiday, Utah. There's a woman named lucille minor johnson and she is 78 years old and she's a tiny little lady she's 4 11 122 pounds that's a little tiny old lady 78 years old she's a little tiny church lady yeah and this is what you would use picture of her she's the sweetest looking old lady there is a big smile yeah looks like she just wants to help people one of those people

she's born in 1912 oh boy in eureka utah she's seen it all she's seen it all yeah uh she she married she married a guy named howard johnson and supported him while he built a chain of hotels okay no he didn't it's just just Howard D. Johnson is his name. That started out as the family destination around America and has now dwindled down to the truck stop. Dwindled down to a truck stop with four flavors of ice cream rather than before they were known for having like 60 flavors of ice cream and all that shit.

Nope. No, it's a piece of shit. So she married him on Augustust 23rd 1933 good lord married in 1933 think about that shit i can't the depression is still lingering on that is wild impossible for me that's crazy um she was a graduate of the lds Business College and a former member of the Exchangeettes, the Salt Lake Exchange Club. Connoisseur of cardigans. Oh, you know she was sweaters. This is my sweater closet.

Beautiful ones. No, no, the sweater closet, I said, not the regular clothes closet. late in her life here at 78, president of the Southern Utah Broadcasting Company, which had a couple of different radio stations, and president of the Investment Center, which was a family investment real estate group. She's done well. She's done well for herself. She's a very prominent, active member of the LDS Church.

She is big in the Relief Society and all of this shit. She loves to help people. She's big into charity, big in the relief society and all of this shit. She just, she loves to help people. She's big into charity, big into the church. She just kind of dedicates her older life to that. Nice lady. This Lucille, her husband,

uh, Howard here, he dies on August 5th, 1989. So, you know, he dies here. He was in his,

I think he was in his late seventies. Also, uh, she she as of 1991 february 1991 to be exact here february 1st 1991 she's seen sweeping off her porch yeah so people have uh see her she waves to her neighbors friendly old lady um but then later on that night her family tried to reach her and couldn't couldn't get a hold of her so uh her daughter shirley went to her house which was 4284 south holloway drive in holiday and the next day and she found something horrific here she walked in to find her mother

bloody battered and dead in the front hallway right by the entryway with her face covered with a pillow. How'd the porch look? Spotless. I knew it. Spectacular. Unbelievable. Except, not exactly, because we'll find out there's a couple. She's a meticulous housekeeper.

Apparently, she'll sweep her porch twice a day. Really? Vacuums her house constantly. She's a meticulous housekeeper. Breaks the carpet. Breaks it. Yeah, gets it. I want to really puff it up there. day vacuums her house constantly she's a meticulous housekeeper breaks the carpet breaks it yeah gets it i want to really puff it up there she's really really meticulous and we'll find out something

that was found that's out of character for her because there was something on the porch that wouldn't have been there if she was sweeping we'll put it that way or it wouldn't have been there she wouldn't have missed it sweeping we'll say here uh so she's found there she's found there uh she is of course dead she's been strangled but that's not all though it's oh christ it's bad she's not sexually assaulted they do find that she's thank fuck nobody who sexually assaulted this poor woman but they still went way too far about yeah they strangled her uh she suffered a fractured skull 24 broken ribs oh my how many do you have 20 you have 26 broken ribs that is just beating all over the place and received what they called numerous blows to the head to cause skull fractures

now this is this i've said it before i said it recently this is this one is particularly sensitive because the way it went down is very similar to the way my great grandmother was murdered. The exact same way. A nice old lady, someone knocks on their door asking for help. They let them in to try to help them. And this person then robs them and murders them in their own home. And like I said, that's exactly what happened. This lady, I don't want to say better or worse, but I feel like she had it a little better than my great grandmother who was tied up and beaten and had her throat slit.

I think that's worse, probably. Maybe. I think. Just the tied up part is terrible. Not to make it. Not to parse fucking whatever. Not to be too specific, but your grandma probably bled out and drowned. You know what I mean?

That's a horrible way to die. It was bad, yeah, for an old lady like that, too. It's very fucking sad here. This one, she was strangled, which is also horrific. I'm not trying to say this is less horrific. I'm just trying to near they were similar in age and everything else so it's just it's stuck in my head so weird thing about this crime scene in addition to her being dead for no reason obviously is the fact that there's blood everywhere yeah they find blood all over the place on the walls here they're over. But the rest of the house is meticulously maintained.

Everything looks like it's been picked up and perfectly cleaned, except they find Legos all over the place. They find Legos scattered all around the corpse, all around this woman's body in the living room. They find a Lego out on the porch, which is not consistent with her sweeping. She would have swept a Lego up up you'd see a lego uh they found legos out in the yard as well a couple of legos so there's a bunch of legos besides that there's nothing they have no evidence besides blood or and that's it so the lego said it came to life and beat her to death that's possibly it if somebody beat her to death with a lego they'd be they made a lego club and just attacked her with it didn't have any forethought there like oh this comes apart yeah oh shit god damn it holding a handle falling apart so uh yeah they found that just inside on the driveway they

found legos that was the weird part they're like like a trail of legos which is strange um just inside the entryway now they learn from her family that her grandchildren do come over and they play with legos as every kid played my son loves legos for however many years for the last 40 years all kids love legos they're just listen i'm 39 i love like they're fun that's it they're really cool so uh they her daughters and her children say though yeah, the kids go there and they play Legos and stuff. But she would never have left Legos out. Like, there's just no way she's leaving out a bunch of Legos. Not this many in the living room and on the porch.

She swept the porch. Everybody started sweeping the porch. Why would there be Legos on the porch? My kid wasn't there between the sweeping and when she's found. So how is that possible? Attacked by a daycare. That's what it is. So, I mean, they collect them as evidence. and when she's found. So how is that possible? Is she attacked by a daycare? That's what it is.

So, I mean, they collect them as evidence, but the detectives really kind of don't. That's kind of an afterthought. They don't even really think about it because, yes, the kids are so, she's meticulous and all that, but, you know, people say, who knows? She left some Legos on the floor maybe that day. She's 78.

Maybe she was tired or slipping and her kids don't want to say it, but they're not going to go, oh, well well the legos are the crux of the whole case because her daughter says she cleans up really well like that's that's not evidence really we're gonna chase do you want to lego land and look for a murderer look at you you put those together pretty quick look for the assemblers at the lego store so the main thing they worry about is they notice and they learn that she always wore a particular ring and necklace. Never did not wear them every time.

Always on her. Always on her. Got up, put it on, took it off before she went to bed, that sort of thing. And both of them were missing from the home. So that's what they were concentrated on because that's something they can maybe track and possibly help find a murderer on. So, yeah, they learn all of that. They learn about the necklace. They work the case pretty hard here.

I mean, it's a pretty known thing. It's an older lady beaten severely in her home. There's a lot of public pressure. The church is... Or it was the worst nightmare. Yeah, the church is... She's a member of a church with a lot of... You know, she's got a lot of friends

and a lot of family and a lot of people that care about her. So they're saying, find who killed our fucking mother and grandmother and friend, please. This isn't just some, you know, some lady they found in an alley who half drank herself to death or something and was homeless. This is whoever would do this is a fucking monster. That's the other thing. This is a horrific rest of society is not safe. Yeah, exactly. And also, they said several items reported missing besides the ring and the necklace. monster that's the other thing this is horrific the rest of society is not safe yeah exactly and also they said several items reported missing besides the ring and the necklace there's no

evidence of forced entry uh but there is evidence of a fight being put up she did not go quietly or easily she put up a fight which is good for her man i mean 78 and 411 and she didn't give a shit she's trying the the uh police officer said there were some evidence that a struggle took place it looked like she tried to fend off her attacker but she's a very fragile and small woman yeah she's fucking 78 here so it's it's awful they work it for a while like i said the legos go in the back of the evidence container they think that's probably just her grandkids um you know nothing big happening here they look for a little while um her son says that her son's name is jerry johnson he says that he heard about it on the

radio which is a horrible way to hear about it he said that he was driving home from cedar city he heard his mother's address announced on the radio oh no and he went that's my mother's address and uh he didn't he he said he didn't hear what happened at the address he just heard the address at the end of a thing he didn't hear what happened beforehand so he said that quote quote he said he then heard a voice saying quote she's with me uh he the voice told him that his mother was all right so he says god spoke to him in the car telling him that his mother was gone and fine she's dead but she's okay this is before she knew she was dead you wouldn't even shout back that's not okay with me not okay i'm not happy about this with who are you

creepy fuck it's okay with who uh who yeah is that god who the hell is that yeah she's with me she's all right not all right, she'd be better off here. He says, quote, I had just had a very peaceful feeling come over me that peace has been with me ever since. So that is that motherfuckers religious. Yeah, that's some serious religion. Do it. He's practicing what he's preaching.

He's like, most people might say that. Then when their mother gets killed, they're like, I'll rip your fucking throat out and cut his balls off and sho it up your mother's cut. And you know what I mean? They lose their fucking mind. But he's just like, she's OK and I'm fine with it. Wow. That's something, man.

Wow. Now, police have suspects that they're looking for. They are looking for a male Caucasian and a black male. Five years old for the question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they're looking for, yeah, a black guy and a white guy in the questioning here. They said that they were seen around the neighborhood.

So a team of detectives look into this whole thing. They said two men with that description were spotted leaving the Smith's Food and Drug Store a little bit after the last time she was seen which is nearby the men were headed southbound in a red ford mustang convertible with a white top and it was apb on black guy and white guy in mustang there are guys they find the two guys hell yeah turns out they weren't doing shit uh complete mistake they were just soliciting for a new restaurant they just opened together so they were going door to door handing out flyers for discounts and coupons for their brand new restaurant they didn't even run into her and uh yeah they didn't

do shit these guys they were like holy fuck because they like heard about it they they ended up talking to the police because they saw the car and they saw their descriptions and they were like, that's us they're talking about. They think we killed this fucking lady, which I can't tell if that's terrible publicity for their new restaurant or amazing publicity for their new restaurant. I don't know. Any publicity is good. That's what I'm saying.

They said that they were asking people to try the new Mexican restaurant. They were opening and the sheriff said they're definitely not suspects. But they do have a hell of an enchilada plate that you should go over. Their Spanish rice is top tier. Go try their virgin margaritas. Yeah. That's fucking great. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity,

that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott?

From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus,

religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. And they said that they're not looking

for them anymore. The sheriff said, quote, we're not looking for a red Mustang anymore either. I just wish we had some leads. And that we didn't say that shit. And we just left that out. And they continue to wish we had some leads and that we didn't say that shit and we just left that out and they continue to wish they had leads because this case goes completely cold and uh that's that they never they never uh more on that later but this case goes cold for at least

the decade of the 90s for right now we'll talk about the family sits there, has no resolution. It's brutal. So back to Kara and John. Now, early 1996, they move to Phoenix, where everybody comes to when they've run out of the line somewhere else. It's becoming like fucking Alaska here, where it's like you've come here to run from something or hide from something or like to rebuild your life because you've completely fucking mangled it where you're from and you've heard it's cheap and you heard it's cheap and it's not and it's like it doesn't rain i hate rain i don't want to shovel anymore right and then you're stuck here with us oh my god it's hot and i'm still i don't have any money and i'm screaming at you in traffic because you can't drive on a freeway because you're an asshole and you're from fucking wisconsin and you shouldn't be here. And then I finally get my car cooled down and then I have to get the fuck out of it.

Yeah. And it's going to get worse. So they move here and right away they need help. They go to churches for help. Basically. Chicken. No churches like all different churches. They at this point have four children that four children that they're traveling with here.

And, yeah, four children. So they started out with the one in 86, and since then, in 10 years, they've had another four. Or another three. So it's three boys and a girl they have here. And they end up getting help from a church, the Emanuel Bible Church on 6017 East Greenway Road. Yeah. So it's out by Horizon High School over there. Yeah.

So their pastor there, Dick Fellers. Yeah. How you doing here, Dickie Fellers? That is a fascinating place that they got to being down on their luck to fucking North Scottsdale. By that fancy school. Yeah. Not Horizon. No that uh fancy uh school that not not horizon the fancy elementary school on the north side private school yeah big white it looks like a little it looks like a little white house yeah people dropping off their little fucking shitty six-year-olds and their fucking aquamarine polo shirts to go in there there you go sunny boy

the fucking rose garden on the side disgusting absolutely disgusting so uh they end up going there for disgusting disgusting you bastard fucking rich look at her pooping with the door open disgusting that's the greatest line an american dad look at her pooping with the door open disgusting that's the aliens? Yeah, disgusting. He's talking about a doll in a dollhouse. And he goes, pooping with the door open.

Disgusting. She doesn't know it, but see those two little suitcases over there? Those are mine. They're packed up and I'm ready to go. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. That's a great fucking cartoon it's one of those where you would think it would be like in a corny and for old people and it's just really subversive and hilarious and weird and they go too far fantastic gay alien is just the

greatest thing in the world so fish that talks yeah that that's gonna take it a leaf but roger is the best and steve really grows on you after a while too steve's what did you like that's fucking hilarious so to be likable yeah that's what it comes grows on you so after a while here these two uh need to find a place to live and there they receive some assistance from the church and finding an apartment in peoria oh over on the west side that's a phoenix that's right for that check from the church to get to yeah it's probably just cheap i assume over there because i know some i used to serve papers over there and there's some complexes in peoria where it would be like okay right got my one box cutter right got my other box cutter and head on a swivel. Let's do this shit.

It's fucking dangerous. Something off of Grand Avenue. Yeah, I wanted some shit like that. Now, at this point in their life, we haven't talked about them in a while. We don't know what they've been up to since they were having kids and hitting each other with frying pans. And being on drugs. Yeah, 10 years ago. Well, this is, you know, 96.

They're in Peoria. The landlord over there, Carol Todd. She knows them well. She says, quote, he would smack his wife around a bit. Oh, boy. She would come into the office crying. I would sit her down and talk it out about call the cops. She's getting the shit beaten out of her with four kids. So she said that and a bunch of other people around the complex said that the kids, the three sons and the daughter that they had, who are at this point are like, you know, between seven and 11, you know, just complete.

They're just left to their own devices. Latchkey's in an apartment complex. Yeah, their parents are crackheads, so they don't really have a lot of supervision. They said that they would scour the neighborhoods begging for food and asking people for money and uh even asking people to give them if they could have money so they could so their dad could get cigarettes he would send his kids out to bum cigarette money off of neighbors which is i don't even know what the fuck to say about that that's just i have no how do you not shame yeah no pride. Well, worse than that, how do you not go? I don't get it. This is rock bottom.

Rock fucking bottom. That's it. I need help. Right. I need to stop what I'm doing. In 96, cigarettes were two bucks. Yeah. You're running kids out to go get $2 for you.

And out here, they used to sell those GPCs or whatever. Yeah. Like $1.29 a pack or some shit. Absolutely. Yeah. You could scrape up change, asshole. So, yeah, it's gross. Also, a neighbor here, a woman named Diane, said, quote,

the boys were little monsters running wild through the apartment complex. Another neighbor said the children would sometimes roam the neighborhood late at night without any supervision. Between 7 and 11, just roaming the streets. And it's not a great neighborhood peoria that's tough stuff they're in a shit area and they're just letting their little children wander around aimlessly carol todd again the manager said quote sanzing and his wife really know the welfare circle they know how to how to get this agency to pay the rent this one to pay the lights and this one to come up with the food which which, if they needed that, would be good.

I don't want people to starve and not have places to live with their children. It's good that those resources are known. Yeah, but there are crackheads that know how to work the system. It's to maintain being a crackhead. That's what I mean. They have jobs. They work. They just spend their money on drugs, and then they go to charitable places for things

for their kids and for food, because then they can go, we have no money for food, and people will give them food money, but they can't buy the food first and then say, can we have crack money from the church? So they spend their money and then get the food from the church. That's usually how it goes. That's how it works. So, you know how things are. You know, we finance everything.

We've got the rent paid. The lights are on. It's pretty sweet. We got water. Everything but crack. Everything but the crack. If only we could make it a little more for the crack. Can you help?

Then I wouldn't have time to smoke the crack, though. We need to rethink our strategy. So they need a new home at some point here. They want a new home. They get kicked out of a couple different apartment complexes for obvious reasons right so they contact pastor fellers there from the church up on greenway by horizon there so they contact him in november of 97 they contact him and uh oh my god i'm running all over those neighborhoods at this time. Oh, yeah, yeah. You might have run into this guy here. Sweet Jesus.

So he's asking for, he asked them for food, for housing. Can you help us get a place? You know, can you help us? We're homeless at this point. They were homeless just living in a car like they had nothing with four kids in Phoenix, which is not easy to be homeless in Phoenix. I would not advise homelessness in Phoenix. No.

Like, I've heard people say and like this is funny because you hear people like that that don't read just talk shit and i've heard people like you know in rural areas spout like you know at california that's all they just love having the homeless people out there it's like homeless people go there because the fucking weather allows you to be homeless and not die. That's why they're there. That's why they're there. I'll tell you what.

If Nebraska was 74 degrees year-round with an ocean breeze, you'd be fucking packed with homeless people no matter what you thought of them. That's the point. So people go where the climate and where everything's better. Phoenix, bad place to be homeless. Like Minneapolis, not a good place to be homeless like minneapolis right not a good place outdoor living is uh it's it's amenable you can do it we had over 50 days of 110 degree plus days here you will die here if you're homeless so you can't do it find them all the time oh just dead you know the where the ditch is where the water runs underneath the concrete yeah they slide in those to try to cool off.

To get away from the sun and sleep in there. And then they fucking die in there. It's still hot as fuck. Yeah. That's horrible. Because it's a concrete box. Yeah. And you're going to sleep in there?

It's awful. That's fucking awful. It's terrible, man. This pastor wants to help them. He said, quote, I had them in my home. They spent two nights. I never saw any violence or cruelty on their parts toward each other or the kids. You're not going to beat your wife at the pastor's house.

Yeah. Turn around, Pastor. Whap. Jesus Christ. He says they got them into a house, as we'll talk about in a moment, with assistance from the they have a service agency they work through. It's like some charity thing that helps people try to find. It's a group that helps families with kids that are homeless find housing, basically. And a female worker said that she also helped them.

She helped John Sands get a job. But he stopped going to work not too long after that. So that's how that works. But he stopped going to work not too long after that. So that's how that works. In December of 1997, they are December 10th. Both of them are sentenced to probation for that, they got put on probation. They said that they were there, started telling everybody that they're turning a new leaf. Yeah.

They said totally new life. We're moving into a new home. Yeah. New life, new house, new fucking everything. No more drugs. We have found religion now for real. We're not just getting charity like we really believe in it now. We started going to church regularly with her kids.

She called her mom up to tell her that. Look, this is great. She said her mom said, quote, she said you would be so proud of me. So she was turning her life around and she for two weeks they've been clean and they feel great. Yeah, everything's fine. You don't. That's the thing about drug addicts they don't uh turn everything around get sober uh because of that uh that's usually a

everything's going fine and we do drugs so we can just keep doing drugs yeah and then usually when everything's literally there's nowhere to go yeah that's when they generally turn it around if they ever turn if they ever turn around yeah because that's the thing if they let's say they get jobs and stuff and they're doing well and everything's great and they have a couple extra bucks they're going to be like well we can do drugs for one day we're doing that's what happens we're figuring it out do it just for one day that's what people do i can do it for one day yeah i can do it now now that i know why this is better right i can do it for one day and then i can go back to being normal and then a week later when you're stealing money from your pastor.

When you forget how expensive that lifestyle is. Yeah. So here's another familiar location for you, Jimmy. The new home that they were put into is a house, not an apartment. It's a house in the 3800 block of West Alice Avenue. 35th Avenue and Peoria. That's right by Metro. That's not good. that is not a good

area no not a nice area um it's a dangerous area we'll say especially late 90s yeah it's pretty dangerous over there so just north of what is that moon valley high school yeah but out of the out of the nice area right that's into the oh it's it's brutal that's a it's a rough area brick it's everything is good it's so hot my God. There's not a fucking tree to be seen. None. My cousin had a girl that lived there. I went to pick him up once, and everything is concrete. It was 10 degrees hotter there than in my house.

I lived eight minutes away. It was 10 degrees hotter. The only shadows are from the fucking utility pole. Yeah. You got to stand in the shadow of one of those. Everybody has the rock front yards. No one has grass. It's fucking brutal so it is hot at this point the kids are between 9 and

13 here and um so they're moving to this house like we said in december and then february of this year uh they things start to turn around a little bit not the best, as you might imagine. February 20th through 24th, basically, of that year, John has a... They go through $2,000 worth of crack in four days. So I feel like somebody got a two-week paycheck and just bought crack with it, basically.

Or they both got their paychecks and just bought crack with it. So they spent... Wasn't it like their third paycheck of the month, you know, when you get paid in two weeks? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, that's a freebie. There's no taxes out of it?

That's a freebie, baby. Woo-hoo. This is our crack check. Yeah, crack check. So they spent, in four days, they spent every dime they had and had traded everything they could for cash for more drugs.

In four days, they went from everything's great to spent all their money and sold everything they had for crack. Wow. Four days, they went from everything's great to spent all their money and sold everything they had for crack. Wow. Four days. Sunk it all. Turned it around quick.

Yeah. A quick turnaround. Now, the next day, February 24th, he said that he had smoked some crack earlier in that afternoon, but they were out of crack and out of money and didn't know what to do. It's a rainy day, February 24th, 1998. And those rainy, cold Phoenix winter days, that's the thing you don't get to. Phoenix is cold in the winter. It's not like Utah snowy cold, but it's not 80 degrees in the winter.

It's not comfortable cold. People think, oh, it's probably like San Diego, but it's like 110 in the summer, but then it's like 78 in the winter. No, no, no. It's like 52 in the winter the winter it's fucking cold so it'll be in the 20s at night sometimes yeah the 30s it's chilly and desert cold it's fucking cold that's the thing 50 here is different from new york 50 new york 50 you could have a fucking t-shirt and a windbreaker 50 out here you need a fucking parka because it's dry and it cuts through you like a knife it's brutal so it's cold and rainy and whatever so this day they have no more money left and the kids they have four kids that

you need to feed you know kids tend to eat right one thing about kids they never stop eating oh boy you figure you feed them on a monday they'd be good for a while like a snake but they're not they just need more food for two weeks they just need more food and more food it's ridiculous there's never bottomless pit these fucking kids remember we got devil dogs shipped to us yeah they're fucking gone oh my son ate two boxes holy shit wow in one night and now he's a diabetic jimmy's so we're gonna start a fun to get jim Jimmy's son a prosthetic foot. Because he ate two boxes. I woke up in the morning and there's wrappers. He didn't even get them in the trash.

He just opened the pantry, threw the wrappers in, and grabbed another couple. Oh, my God. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing, man? And he goes, these are really good. Where do you get them? And I'm like, thank Christ you can't get them here. The Northeast, asshole. Not here.

Those flew on a plane for you yeah jesus those pound cakes are ridiculous unbelievable the drake's pound cakes that's much better than the intimates much better i can eat them i want to i want to get a whole box and just stack them up and get a thick piece and fucking eat them all they're so good that and the the ring dings are wild too oh i'm so ring dings with a with a glass of wine, James? Try this. Really? Oh, boy. Well, then, I know what I'm doing tonight. Because it's like darkish chocolate. It's not necessarily dark chocolate.

It's just darker than milk. And I hate dark chocolate, but it's darker. It's its own. It's like a devil's food. Right. That's what it is. It's the devil's food, I think, in a ring thing. But I mean, the chocolate glaze around it is a darker chocolate than milk.

Yeah, but not. But it's not milk. It's still sweet. Right. But it's not bitter. With a glass of wine? Forget it. Oh, boy. it's not milk sweet right but it's not bitter with a glass of wine i can see that oh boy so

we're going to be doing a new podcast called snack cake pairings where we are going to pair all sorts of snack cakes with different wines we're going to discuss an enderman's coffee cake with a bordeaux tomorrow so tune into that i'm going to teach you what chardonnay pairs with the twinking that's right holy shit so on this day on this day february 24th of 2000 or 1998 rainy day uh john contacts the church the living springs church for food he requests a they deliver food they have boxes of food they deliver to people they still do this food bank yeah lots of people do but this is delivery they actually do it a service so this is free hello fresh yeah basically free hello fresh so he recalls the requests and um they say that they he gives his the church secretary his name and his home address

for delivery they said they'll send somebody later in the afternoon. Now, after that, he calls his wife, Kara, who's at work. Now, she's at work. He calls her several times, mainly to discuss how they can get more crack. So the phone keeps ringing while she's at work, and she's got to talk about how do we get more crack later. So I don't know what kind of production she had that day at work, but probably not much. Do we know what her job was? I don't know what her job was here. Whatever is it's interrupted by by a phone call who can get

us crack by who how can we get crack he did at one point call her back and said i got some crack i got 20 worth of crack i smoked some of the crack and i'm saving the rest of it for you when you get home that's a couple that they do a lot of things together if they're you know i'll save you the crack for the rest of the crack but that's nice at least he's saving it for her so she says that she could tell he had smoked crack from the sound of his voice already she was happy he was also he's jittery and everything else she said she returned home from work a few hours later and he was not acting normal is the way she put it uh also she said he told her that she he had called the church and arranged for delivery of some food she got home about 320 that's when they

smoked the rest of their crack um by the way kids are home yeah so you smoke crack around the kids that's smart uh kids are home here and uh while they're there uh smoking crack they discuss okay here's what we're gonna to do with the kids. It's them and their four kids in the living room. And they're like, whoever they send with this box of food, we're totally going to rob them. We're robbing this person. We need more crack money. So they're bringing you a box of food and you're going to rob them further.

They don't have the blue bag, the blue bank bag. There's no money. It's not a grocery store. It's free. It's charity. There's no money. It's not a grocery store. It's free. It's charity. There's no money. They have a personal stash here. So they end up, the church sends a woman named Elizabeth Calabresi.

Trudy, everybody calls her. Trudy's 41. Calabresi is not her name. She married a Calabresi. She's like a blonder woman. Her husband, though, I think is, what's his name? Rosario. He's very Italian.

So anyway, she is a mother of two children. She does volunteer work at the Living Springs Assembly of God there in El Mirage. El Mirage Road in Glendale. She does lots of charity work. This is I love this. The local shit here. All this shit. I've done fucking electric company stuff there.

It's at the river bottom. That's a bad place, too. There you go. It's not good. No, well, it's any place that's going to be able to, a charity church, one that's not there to make money, but to give stuff out. They're not going to be in a nice neighborhood. In 97, James.

Yeah. During the housing boom, that area blew up, but in 97, that shit was a desert. Yeah, it was garbage out there this is uh 65 32 north el mirage road oh jesus so uh anyway she is a 20 she's a retired 20 year air force medical technician luke air force is right there right there um she loves to do charity work she's very religious and believes that through her religion she should do charity work because that's kind of what religion is supposed to be. That's supposed to be, hey, let's gather and say how great we are and how shitty everyone else is on Sunday while driving your fanciest, most waxed up car and wearing your best jewelry.

It's supposed to be, I'll go give food to poor people. I think that's the point of it. But I don't know. That's just me. So put on all the best shit we have and go to a building and thank the guy that gave it all to us. Thank the guy that gave it to us and tell him how humble we are. Right. Check out my wife's new tits.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm humble for that. I'm so humble. Isn't it humble? So, Trudy leaves the church in her truck at about 4 p.m. and arrives at the home, parks in front of the house, and she has two boxes of food to bring into them, which they have four kids, so that's nice.

She goes in, she chats with Kara in the kitchen and everything. John goes and signs the receipt for the delivery. And then she's still talking to Kara a little bit, and she's kind of edging toward the door. She's going to leave soon. All right, well, it's been nice. I hope you can contact us if you need anything and hope everything works out for

you, where you live and all that sort of thing. As she's doing that, John comes up from behind her and grabs her and body slams her to the floor. Oh, my. Yeah. As she prepared to leave, Kara would later say he, quote, grabbed her from behind and threw her to the floor. He restrained her by driving a knee into her back.

And, you know know like this yeah we know this technique here at this point he orders his son to go get him an extension cord yeah so his son follows orders and goes and gets an extension cord and gives it to him and uh then with his children standing right there he and his wife tie her up uh bound her wrists and and ankles together and everything you know with a fucking extension cord while the kids watch the whole time she's of course pleading with them to not do this she's crying out saying lord please help me she said at one point i don't want to die but if this is the way you want me to come i'm ready she says like that's how religious she is I don't want to die. But if this is the way you want me to come, I'm ready.

She says like that's how religious she is, though, that she's like, well, I mean, if this is it, then great. Which is that's faith there. So anyway, she's repeatedly asking the children to call the police. She's pleading. She's looking right. The kids going, please call the police. And the father's going, you fucking touch that phone. And the kids just sit there and don't do anything.

They sit there and just let it happen because they're they're scared shitless of this man, I would assume. Imagine what they've seen him do. He's doing this to a stranger. Imagine what they've seen him do to his mother, to them, to their mother, to them. I mean, they're fucking, he's obviously scared the shit out of these kids. He then instructs them to shut up and go and watch TV. Go watch cartoons. So he literally sends them into the living room, which was there in the kitchen, sends them in the living go and watch TV. Go watch cartoons. So he literally sends them into the living room, which

was there in the kitchen, sends them into the living room to watch TV. Ignore this is happening. He then gets a club, a wooden club, and his son saw this, watched him beat her over the head several times with the club till it breaks in two pieces,

knocking her unconscious. He took the pieces and washed them off and put them under the sink after that so he leaves her on the dining room floor unconscious and tied up with an extension cord and takes her keys and moves her truck to a parking lot of a strip mall nearby so you know it's not drawing attention and then comes back in the house now at some point before he returned she regains consciousness which is amazing because she's got skull fractures too here um upon his return he uh jesus christ his wife is there his kids are there he drags her into the bedroom after this okay cara then watches him

rape her uh yeah while she's hogtied yeah too um children can hear this yeah they're right in the next room doors open this isn't like a private matter or anything um while this is happening eventually he uh and we'll talk about this she said that uh you know he took about 15 minutes to subdue her at first for the whole took about 15 minutes from body slam to dragging her in the bedroom is about 15 minutes uh she fought a lot in the beginning and that's why he hit her with the club he grabbed the club and apparently he told her if you don't stop fighting i'm gonna hit you in the head. And she tried to fucking struggle because Jesus Christ, she's a human being. And so he hit her in the head.

So then, yeah, they he told the children not to call 9-1-1 and all that sort of shit, which is wild. So he Jesus Christ, he ends up dragging her in there. He rapes her. He then up dragging her in there. He rapes her. He then stabs her three times. Now, the wife, Kara, says she saw him pushing the knife into her and grinding it hard. This is not robbery.

This is not robbery. This is disgusting. When he's done with everything, killing her and everything else, he throws a pile of clothes on top of her and leaves her on the bed for a while the children saw that too they all saw her there an hour later he calls their drug dealer and gets some crack uh he takes her jewelry we'll find out from an interesting source how much money she had on her but he takes her jewelry and trades her a ring for some crack and then calls up another hour later a different dealer and trades

a necklace for some crack so yeah you're out of shit yeah and now what you know what i mean you got a body during the attack by the way while he was sexually assaulting her, he put a sock in her mouth and put two plastic bags over her head and tied them with cords and a necktie to keep her quiet there. So think about that, how horrifying this fucking is. Absolutely fucking horrifying. Examiner says that she Will later on say that she lived Several minutes after being stabbed Suffering and bleeding out here Also said the blows

To the head were substantial Resulting in a tremendous amount of bleeding That would have caused unconsciousness and pain And you know cognitive problems Things like that and then raped after That man and then raped after that That's fucking horrible they found three Stab wounds the deepest stab wound Measured three and three quarter inches and formed a crisscross pattern, which is from twisting the knife, which is exactly what his wife said.

Jesus Christ. The wound struck both the colon and interior vena cava, causing hemorrhages within the abdominal cavity. That's why she bled for several minutes first. The other wounds penetrated her stomach, large intestine, and kidney. So it was brutal. The stab wounds would have caused pain and not resulted in immediate death, they did say. After this, they said right when he was done, he looked out the dining room window to make sure nobody was watching the house,

nobody was looking for her or anything like that, because he's cracky too so he's all paranoid he then uh took her jewelry off covered with laundry like we said engaged in two different drug transactions and traded jewelry for crack later on in the evening the pastor from the living springs church called them looking for trudy hey where might trudy be and spoke to he said that, no, no, you have the wrong address. My address is this. And she never showed up here. So he's like, oh, they must have got the address wrong.

And she went to that other address. I don't know, but that's not my house. So that's his lie to them. The address I gave you isn't my address. Well, when they go look for you, you're standing there. So that's not a great lie. That's a crackhead lie. That's a lie that buys you an hour but that's not a lie that like that's a crack lie best that's a crack lie that's i'll steal this and buy crack and feel

good right this second yeah that's like that'll get me off the phone but that won't get me you know free free exactly so jesus christ said they never never arrived. She's still in the bedroom under a pile of laundry at this point. So, at that point, once it got dark outside, he then dragged Trudy from the bedroom to the backyard. Okay? And put her, you know how a lot of houses out here have that shit metal shed by the back fence, by the firewall? That's two feet from the firewall back there. Well, he wedged her there well he wedged her behind that shit shed between the wall and the shed oh that's terrible yeah you know like lumber that it's extra or like old tires or some shingles that fell off the roof or something that's what she did and then put uh put a bunch of debris on top

of her old carpeting yeah and shit that you would put behind the show yeah the shit we just talked about the the paint can that has uh an inch and a half of paint in the bottom that's solid yeah there's no reason to have that why is this here well i don't want to throw it out because then it's toxic or whatever so i'll just put it over here i may need it later and then i don't have to chip paint i can just you know i could say that i'll get it exactly even though you'll never ever do that never so all the kids saw the body behind the shed as well. They all walked out and looked at her. It's the stand by me thing.

Want to see a dead body? Well, we don't have to follow the tracks. Just go in the backyard. It's right there. Yeah. So they, and I'm sure we're morbidly curious. At some point, like I said, he washed the bloody club. He hid the clothes that he had on and all that sort of thing.

And yeah, cover put them all in a box. Didn't burn his clothes. Put them in a box in the bedroom. They'll never find it there. So the next day people are looking for Trudy. Trudy is not a flighty woman. She has two kids and church and all this stuff and a family. She doesn't show up somewhere.

There's a reason why. Pretty reliable. Pretty reliable. So they go looking for her and they find her truck in a in the parking lot that they moved it to by the strip mall inside it they do find a piece of paper with the sanzing's correct address on it so he he went in the car but didn't find that paper the cops found here what an idiot so then the police go to their home to knock on the door and while they're doing it they just walk around the yard as if they're

you know whatever and didn't didn't take too long to find a dead body behind the shed oh jesus so the cops are just looking around they're like found something yeah i mean it's right there right it's fucking obvious holy shit so they pulled her out and they went well that's her and uh he they weren't home at the time he had run away to his sister's house who lives in phoenix as well and tells his sister patsy about the murder tells him what he just did the father's also there too and the father calls the police good then tells him i called the police and told him what you did yeah and he uh doesn't leave he just sits and waits to be arrested he stays at the house and he's like well i guess they'll come and get me then stays there waits to be arrested and um

you know that's a calling him out on like trying to bluff him like uh no i'll stay he got on the phone and he knew he said he said i'm on the phone with the police. He really did it, but do you think Cracky sat there and was like, cool, I'll sit here and wait and see then? No, no, no. I think he was tired. I think it was one of those things. Right. They always say the homicide David Simon book, it's the famous old thing that you leave people in an interrogation room and see who goes to sleep. That's the guilty person.

Yeah. That's actually like 98% true. That's a great point. They say it all the time. after doing that they leave they leave people if they're going bringing them in for murder interrogations they leave them in the box for a while to see what they do because your actions while you're in there and thinking you're alone tell a lot even if you know there's a camera on you you do certain things one of the things they said is guilty people sleep that's wild innocent people who have been brought in to be questioned about a murder they're too scared aren't tired right they pace they look

out the window they bang on the door they go what the fuck are we doing can we get what's happening right they're not comfortable they're not happy to be here losing their mind they're worried about it they're like this is weird a guilty person's like well i'm caught might as well sleep now and they just go to sleep i'm gonna be i'm tired Well, I guess they're they expected to be here eventually. So they're tired. Right. So it's a weird thing. So I think that's kind of what it is.

When the police arrived, he just peaceably came out. Hands up. I'm your guy. You're looking for hands behind his back. Went in. No problems. Didn't even argue with him. So, yeah, the medical examiner said severe injuries, like we said, swelling and bruises on her forehead and left orbital region.

Her face and lips were swollen. Her frenulum was severed, which they attributed to blunt force trauma of the mouth. That's that little piece that connects your. Yeah, Jesus Christ. The they noticed a laceration near her right ear. Ligatures were affixed to her neck with tension sufficient enough to leave two marks to Jesus Christ elect neck ligatures would have decreased the oxygen flow to and from her brain as well. She was being choked with them. And yeah, so he also readily admits to stabbing

her, which is another thing he doesn't say I didn't do it. And his wife talks about the grinding of the knife and all that sort of thing. They have a witness. They have several witnesses that they didn't expect to have ever come forward. And they are their four children. Yeah. Yeah. They tell one time in court, their little girl on tape described watching this.

This is a nine-year-old girl talking about this talking about how she watched her daddy kill quote kill the church lady oh my god who came to their home to bring them food she said quote he grabbed her from behind he tied her up and uh which he came up behind her and body slammed her is what she said and this is fucked too because you can see it in a movie and it'll mess up a kid watching this what it what really happened this is dexter this is fuck too because you can see it in a movie and it'll mess up a kid watching this what it what really happened this is Dexter this is not good she saw the real thing horrible and in the

worst possible way the worst possible way someone struggling begging yeah showing someone showing no absolutely zero caring for human life whatsoever or suffering or anything while she prays and exactly oh she said they said is there anything that the woman said and the little girl said she just kept saying

god help me oh my like that is depressing man um she also pleaded with the children three or four times to call the police and call 9-1-1 instead they said they obeyed their parents orders to go watch cartoons um one of the boys here said that he remembered seeing trudy crying and hearing his father threatened to hit her if she didn't stop moving and remembered hearing what the he described the kid described what the club sounded like hitting her and all that sort of shit he saw the blood on her head he saw the body after it was moved to the backyard he said that his parents planned to rob the church worker the day before the murder they've been planning this for longer

than a day he said quote they wanted money the police officer officer said did she have any money and the boy said she had some change a dollar 25 good christ a dollar 25 jimmy and a ring in change literally two hours worth of crack. That's what this person's life is worth to them. Two hours worth of crack. That is fucking disturbing. What are the chances that these kids have it together? I can't fucking imagine.

I can't imagine. 25%? That's one of them's a mess. One out of four is probably normal, maybe, if that. So they said afterwards, too, the kids are examined by psychiatrists they said that the son the oldest son suffers from severe guilt and having followed his father's direction to find an extension cord and he was just horrified he couldn't sleep at night he was so scared he said of his dad he didn't know what to do and he just did what he did because he thought his dad would

hit him so he was like i didn't know that's that's real man i mean and working with my stepfather who was a fucking monster on cars yeah he tells you to go get a wrench there's a time limit you get a fucking wrench yeah there's a there's and this is he was i wasn't helping to murder somebody and they do they smoke crack all the time these kids know what dad needs crack looks like and it's you don't get in the way of that shit period it will fuck you up so get that extension cord. Yeah. Man, it's wild. And the kids told the parents everything they saw, the whole thing.

They described that they regularly smoke crack and do anything they can. After the arrest, a fellow church volunteer, Kathy Specker, said that volunteers are usually required to deliver food in pairs, but there was no one else available. And Trudy decided to make the trip alone because she knew they had four children and didn't want them to go hungry said if i don't go they're not going to have food so it'll be fine i'll just go uh they said this woman said the only reason she did it was for the kids that's fucking sad uh the kids at that point are moved at first i believe into a foster home and then they end up with his sister for a while here, Patsy. She said that she was trying to, you know, the sister said, this has devastated the family. Well, no shit.

John's sister said that. Well, you're the Trudy's family. That's what I'm saying. Patsy, Jesus. Now, as far as the church program, the food, you'd think maybe that wouldn't be going on anymore. They described it as there's no immediate plans by the church to change its policies at the time we're constantly said quote at the time we're concentrating on the healing of the calabrese family and this church she also said the church as an act of charity is is going to offer food clothing and other

assistance to the sanzing children they're just really nice people it sounds like her husband rosario calabrese yeah he said that he does not hate the people charged with the killing. He said, I believe they are on drugs and do not know what they are doing. I know they have to pay the price before God, but I don't know what to feel. It's related to you. Hey, I don't know. I don't know. I don't hate them.

I don't hate them. I'm in my own business. They'll pay for it. For somebody that's religious like this, own business. They'll pay for it. For somebody that's religious like this, this is like the ultimate test of it. You always say God's will and God's will and God punishes and God forgives and all this. This is the test. Oh, boy. And this person's like, he said, I don't even know what to feel, which you wouldn't know what to feel at that point.

So John does a jailhouse interview. In it, he says he's not perfect he realizes that but he loves his wife okay loves his wife and um he says that uh um he is he doesn't want his wife getting charged too because they're both charged with first degree murder i would hope so you know because she helped everything and didn't didn't stop it and uh he says that he loves her and uh so much so that he said one time, this is him bragging, one time a furniture mover insulted her and he assaulted the man with a weapon because the guy insulted her.

So that's how much I love her. I won't even let anyone insult her. She'd never hurt anyone. So yeah, during an interview here, he said that he's not a crazy or violent person. He's just on drugs. And he said, this is wild. He said, violent person he's just on drugs and he said this is wild he said i ended up killing her to put her out of her misery that's why i did it the misery you put her in yeah he says uh he said he felt the night of the murders he felt worse than horrible

he said while he was killing her how about when you were raping her how about that do you feel horrible about that while you were doing it pretty weird horrible it's hard for me to yeah usually my my fucking dick isn't hard while i'm while i feel horrible about something doesn't work very well yeah he said quote my heart was beating so fast i thought i was dying my head hurt i felt like it was going to explode he said once he started he just couldn't stop he said quote once i attacked her i had to finish it up because i was going to jail anyway. Once you start something, you just can't stop. It's a Pringles commercial. Yeah, once you start eating lays, I mean, in a Pringle.

His murder is sponsored by Pringles. Yep. He said, if only we would have gotten drug counseling, maybe things would have been better. He said, I wish for a miracle that one day I could bring her back. Well, you can't, stupid. You killed this woman. He said, it's not right that his wife is facing murder charges. said quote i'm the one that done this damn it i'm the one that done this what the fuck is going on here not cara yeah he said that you know this is ridiculous he said

quote the only way cara was involved was being there well shit yeah yeah not stopping you that's a big part of it. Welcome to Arizona. Not going, hey, don't do that. Right. He said that he hadn't, he said at this point, he hadn't planned to rob or harm her, which he did. But he said after raping and beating her so badly, he decided to kill her to end her suffering. He said, quote, she was suffering. I wanted to end it.

I wasn't playing God. I just couldn't handle seeing the condition she was in. You did that, though. You can't cause something and then go, I just can't handle end it. I wasn't playing God. I just couldn't handle seeing the condition she was in. You did that, though. You can't cause something and then go, I just can't handle seeing it. What a cracky thing to say. A fucking cracked out thing to say. He said he'll do anything to save his wife. He said she's a victim of years of his abuse and his drug addiction.

And all that started when she met him. It's all his fault. He said, quote, Kara is telling everyone she wants whatever I get. I can't allow that. I want her to be good. Deputies report that she obviously helped tie the woman up and everything. He says, quote, they asked about the kids. Did the kids see this?

And he said, quote, they may have seen her after I tied her up, but that's all not true. He says that he can't remember, though, every detail. Obviously, you know, things happened. He said, I was in a blackout situation. There was this figure there. I was not really seeing or hearing. All right. Sure.

He said that neither his wife nor Trudy screamed during the attack. He said that Jesus Christ. He said his wife did. His wife told him to stop but didn't try to physically restrain him. He said that she knew that if she tried he would have backhanded her. So that would have been a fucking moot point coming up trying to get me to

stop. He said, you know, don't you start you just can't stop. He said that when he returned from moving the truck that's when he said that she was still conscious and alive and tied up with cords stop he said that uh when he returned from moving the truck that's when he said that she was still conscious and alive and tied up with cords and he said um you know he said at some point that he blindfolded and gagged her and put a sock in her mouth and all that sort of shit now in cara's interview this is fucking disturbing man i don't even know if i want to talk about this right now in cara's interview here he talks about she talks about what they were saying while he was raping her.

It's horrible. I don't want to talk about it. Verbatim? She's saying, like, he said this, and then she said this. Gross. It's fucking... I don't even know what to say about here. I don't know that we...

I don't want to talk about it. I'm not going to do it. I don't want to know. I don't want to know the quotes here. I don't want to know what he said it's bad it's it's oh boy she um she he was insulting we'll put it that way saying mean things to her like where's your god and she was still being not worse than that she was and she was still being nice to her and um she was saying the one part i will say here after all the parts, she was saying that please don't kill her.

Just let her go. She said, I won't call the cops. I won't do anything. And she was saying that he said, yes, you will. As soon as you walk out, you're going to call the cops. I got to kill you. Oh, boy. And he killed her.

So Kara decides to plea right away. She makes a quick plea deal on this because then she's going to testify against him. They want the death penalty for him. Well, yeah. So that's what they're really after so they they need her to get that basically so she um she allocutes to the whole thing she says that uh he raped and beat her he does the whole thing uh tells him about just tells her tells the court the whole deal uh during sentencing she is asked why she did nothing to stop the attack and her lawyer said quote she's a battered woman she was she's a typical battered woman she was scared and then um she says they

ask her if she has anything to say before her sentencing she says she's become a born-again christian in jail and is witnessing to other inmates and uh turned to Trudy's husband Rosario and read a statement. She said, quote, From the bottom of my heart and soul, I pray you will forgive me. I know I failed to help Trudy as she came to help my family. Not a day goes by that I don't remember the horrible day that it happened. And the judge says, You, ma'am, may fuck off.

You'll have a lot of time to remember it when you're in prison forever. Enjoy. Life. Life, motherfucker. Enjoy. It's 25 to life, 25 without. So she can't have parole until at least another five years or so, three years. And that would be the first.

And I don't think she's getting it then. There's no way. It ain't happening. They can't give her that. No, she's done. So this is a bad one. So, yeah, she does that. She agreed give her that. No, she's done. So this is a bad one. So yeah, she does that. She agreed to do that.

Her lawyer said she wants the court and everybody to know she's entering this plea to spare her children any further pain. That's what she said. She's a real martyr, this one. Any further pain. I think they've gotten the max. You fucked them up pretty good. I don't think it matters at this point. Now, John, talking about her, he does another interview, and he said he was proud of his wife for what she did

for pleading and getting a deal for herself he said well she'd done what she thought was best i wish i could have been there for her i'm proud that she made her choice and avoided the death penalty now we can finally set this thing to rest okay he's just like this is good like he's a fucking nut he uh he said his concern now is that his his children get a permanent home that's what he's really concerned are and he said quote we want the kids to continue to go to church how about let's just make sure they're not completely psychologically fucking mangled before we even worry about church when we talk about permanent and and things that they're going to be doing for a long time it's psychologists bro yeah never mind yeah we'll get to church later these they need medical help these kids man they need like medical help maybe church too i

don't know if that'll help them but i want psychologists and psychiatrists involved as well i hope they're doing okay jesus uh so he decides he's gonna plea as well he's not gonna go to trial he pleads with no sentencing deal they will not give him a sentencing deal so taking the death penalty no so he pleads in hopes that in the faith that maybe they'll be nice enough to take it off the table but all sentences are on the table so there's no they said you can plea if you want but we're not giving you shit right we got your wife describing exactly how you brutally raped and butchered and fucking killed a woman in front of your children i think we got this pretty good we don't really need to make any deals with you you want to save the cost of the trial knock yourself out but you're still pleading to first

degree murder there's no deal and he does he pleads to first degree murder without any negotiation for sentence, which is just a bad business sense. You know, it's just not good business. That's a guy doing a 50 percent off Labor Day sale on in fucking January. Yeah, it's not working. It's not working. Why are you doing this? He's like all bathing suits on sale. They're like, it's there's three feet of snow on the ground, dummy.

So he says that he did it to save his wife's life and all this sort of thing he said she was a victim at my hands for years and all this shit so the reaction to the plea uh the trudy's husband rosario said he was relieved he said quote i feel a little bit better because i don't need to go to the trial i wanted this stuff to be finished he had a got jesus shirt on while this was going on he said his faith is not faltered since the death of his wife and um he doesn't really care about the death penalty he said quote it doesn't matter what they get i don't feel what we have i don't feel we have the right to kill people but the bible says it's okay talking about

an eye for an eye so he's like he's confused about it he says i don't know it says when one he's literally going on one hand it says not to on the other hand it says to i don't know which is which is right the bible says it's okay but i don't want to die i don't really want to die i don't want to kill him so john and his sentencing there's some aggravating circumstances as you might imagine that it was especially heinous cruel or, or depraved. Did it for robbery. You know, there's a shitload of them. Tons. Tons.

Mitigating. This is what he tries to put forth as mitigating circumstances. Drug use, causing impaired capacity, difficult childhood, remorse, lack of education, that his family loves him. You know, who cares? Yeah, he they do find out, though, through all this, that he at first he minimized his he minimized a lot of the things that sounded worse. The things he was saying to her, the fact that he tried to say she was unconscious the whole time at first when she had regained consciousness. Shit like that is makes it worse for him.

The family talks before the hearing and the husband says i personally don't believe in killing anyone whatever the law says is fine with me that's the judge's job i'm sure somebody i'm just someone who makes furniture that's my job so he's like i don't fucking know what i'm talking about which hey you know what fair enough so uh he uh cara testifies against him in the sentencing which is which is not good for him at all. She describes her prayers and everything like that in court, begging to fucking not die. Even though we're pleased we run a trial? It's a sentencing.

You've got to have a hearing for sentencing because there's everything from 25 to life to death on the table. You basically hear the whole trial anyway. You hear all the real bad shit yeah it's well there's just no uh no defense right it's just here's all the bad shit and then they go but he had a rough childhood that's your only defense you can't like impeach a witness for saying stuff they used to call him cotton top yeah you know cotton old cotton top john says quote if i had one wish in the world that would be it would be to bring your wife back but i can't do miracles.

All I can do is give myself to the Lord. Hope I get to live. That's all up to the judge and to you. I hope I get to live. I'm here to say I'm willing to take anything that comes to me. So there is one more plea for no death, and it is from another unlikely source. unlikely source trudy's 10 year old daughter writes a letter to the court asking that they not give this guy the death penalty which is kind of powerful it's interesting it's very interesting as she is begging that he be allowed to live because quote the bible says you should forgive

and forget instead of dying he should this is what she said quote instead of dying he should live to do something for kids that my mom can't do right now. It says in the Bible that there's a good reason for everything that happens in life. And if John and Kara did not kill my mom, they might not have this chance to know Jesus. Wow. The judge says, it's a nice sentiment you got there, kid. And you got a bright future in front of you and maybe writing or preaching. But you, sir, on the other hand, John, may fuck off.

Death penalty for you, asshole. You're're not a yeah this guy's going to the fucking tank either way and um yeah because i mean everyone's like even people who don't like the death penalty they're like yeah i hate the death penalty but holy shit that's that's a horrible thing to do. He did as bad of a thing as you could do. For $1.25, he brutalized an innocent sweet woman and fucking raped and killed and beat her in front of his children. Mind you, fucking up kids. It's like murdering four other people at the same time. Right, but he did the worst thing possible minus six more victims. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If he did it over and over again, that's the only way he could be worth. If he did this to five more people, he would be world famous. Absolutely. He would be a, it would be, you know, he'd be a, oh my God.

So family members said that his mom talked about it afterwards. The reporters talked to his mom, John's mom, and she said, it was the drugs. I would have given anything if this day hadn't come.

And then she walked away. Trudy's husband said, for everything we do, you have to pay the price. It's over. And now I can go back to my life, a new life. That poor bastard, Jesus Christ. Now he appeals. He's not so thrilled with the death. He's not so willing to take anything that comes to him anymore.

Once it's given to him, he says that now he thought about it and he's being a dick for wanting the death penalty. He said, quote, I looked up selfish in the dictionary and said, that's me. If I go in and ask for the death penalty, what are my kids going to feel? He said, if I'm spared with life in prison, I can be there for my wife and kids from prison. So September 2003, he appeals again. So September 2003, he appeals again. He says that he asserts that the judge improperly based his sentencing decision on Mrs. Cal on Calabrese's good character because the judge said while he was saying his concluding remarks after considering all aggregate aggravating and mitigating factors, described her as a person who stood out like a shining light, a true Samaritan who kept her faith in God god till the end so they're saying you i shouldn't get the death penalty because she was nice her niceness has nothing to do with my death penalty and they were like fuck you fuck out of here i didn't say

anything mean about her at all that's not fair that's not fair i mean i'm sure she did things too left the cap off the toothpaste something happened there ask her husband I'm sure she did things that were real fucking like that. You know, in the middle of the night when you're just there, no Sunday to rip the blankets real hard. What the fuck was that? You wake up and you're cold like that. You know what I mean? How many times?

Sure. She did it with the door open. Disgusting. Disgusting. The one of the justices here said the brutality of this murder clearly sets it apart from the norm of first degree murders. Yeah. Fuck a hike that's penalty upheld man you you did everything but shoot her you are a terrible human you're an awful awful awful and then discarded her like she was literally discard like she was old carpet scraps discarded her with shingles and

carpet scraps and old paint you discarded her don't need that the same way that you throw something away that doesn't fit in the trash can wait for bulk trash day throw it behind the shed don't need that exactly once bulk trash comes so time goes by february 2013 another appeal in u.s district court and um yeah he appeared this is habeas corpus and he says that he's imprisoned and sentenced in violation of the Constitution, has 29 claims of all this shit and ineffective assistance of your asshole. And, you know, my mother didn't fucking stick her tit in my face enough. And they say, fuck off, asshole. Don't think so.

That's the U.S. District Court there. August 2014 comes around. Remember Lucille Minor Johnson? Remember her? Oh, yeah. August 2014 comes around. Remember Lucille Minor Johnson? Remember her? From Holiday, Utah? The reason we did this. Yeah, well, the police get a phone call from a man named

Chad Sansing. Chad is John's nephew. Chad tells the police that he's held this back long enough. He heard John and Kara arguing on at least two occasions and overheard cara threatening john saying that he was she was going to quote tell the police about that old lady he murdered in utah oh my heard this on multiple occasions so

maybe you guys would want to check into this so they do check into this and they submit scrapings from under lucille's fingernails for dna testing oh thank you 2014 but before that the thing that connects them originally before they even get to that because to do all that testing they go let's do a quick thing first they get his fingerprints and the son's fingerprints who would have been five years old at the time and and test them against the Legos. Oh! They matched. Get the fuck out of here.

They found the match on his son's Legos. He brought a five-year-old. And said, play with your Legos while I kill this fucking lady. Get out of here. Same son that had to get the extension cord, by the way. Oh, my. That's how they found it was the Legos. Once the Legos matched, that's when they went to DNA,

That's how they found it was the Legos. Once the Legos matched, that's when they went to DNA. And they found out that John is, in fact, a match on Lucille's DNA scrapings under her fingernails when she fought back. So he killed her as well. Unbelievable. So there you go. Multiple murders in multiple states. He's one of the worst people on Earth.

He's terrible. Also, yeah, his wife admitted to detectives that he admitted to her near the time of the murder that he had also killed another woman oh my they don't know if that's true or not um they said quote this is the police officer oh i'm sorry this is uh yes the police officer while in that home it's clear mr sanzing bludgeon lucille to death leaving his five-year-old apparently apparently in the living room to play with legos on those legos were the fingerprints of mr sanzing's juvenile son um the daughter says they don't know each other they're not acquaintances or anything but if he came to the door with a five-year-old and said he needed help the mother would have let him in absolutely that's probably what it was and um yep dna matches to fingernails and everything

like that they ask him about it so john what the fuck and he says well i did it you got me yeah he's nothing you can do about it we got we nailed you your kids legos and everything else he said that he just panicked he said that he uh he went down the hallway and was trying to steal from her and she caught him. And she caught him, and he panicked and couldn't do anything else. He also admits that his wife and children were also there. Kara was there, too. Oh, no. Yeah, so one child at the time.

They were also there. He said that they were there when he killed her, but, quote, they were nowhere near her. They stayed down the hallway in the living room. So I'm sure it was fine. But she was found in the front hallway with Legos around her. So, like, he drug her out there or something where the kid was. So, this is fucking horrible. Beat the holy shit out of her.

Broke almost every rib. Just beat her until she was, then strangled her. So they charged him in Utahah september 2nd 2014 he's charged with one count of first degree felony murder and um yeah they said uh i mean they said quote oftentimes in law enforcement we deal with individuals who can be characterized as not necessarily bad people but people who do bad things occasionally we run into individuals who are evil he said that sansing can only be described as that this is an individual who perpetuated crimes that are just beyond belief yeah i would say so um her kids were thrilled with this because

they thought it was over it's been 23 years they fucking forgot all about them ever finding anything and they just one day called them up and went hey we got the guy who killed your mom they were like fucking for real awesome uh her son the one who heard about it in the car he said that quote i wasn't sure it would ever it would ever be solved because the length of time that was going on here um they were so thankful to the detectives who found it and the son also said quote i think forgiveness is really what closure is i think we already have forgiven sanzing how does. Who are these people? How do they do that?

Yeah. I didn't want the death penalty for the lady who killed my great grandmother because it's not going to bring her back. But I wasn't like, she's fine. She's cool. We'll invite her over for Thanksgiving. If I saw her, I'd punch her in the twat. But I don't want to, you know. It's unbelievable.

Fuck, man. And yeah. So her daughter said that she still has had a huge effect on her she said ever since this has happened she doesn't like being alone in parking lots or walking out anywhere alone she doesn't ever want to be alone uh she said that she didn't have feelings of anger though she said i just hope justice will be served it is fascinating when you become a victim of something like that how vulnerable you realize you really are every day all day all the time it's constant fucking hard it's amazing that your brain can cover that danger up yeah my back is to the opening of this room and i think about

it constantly while we do that yeah that's what i mean you have to we talk about awful shit oh murders and shit i got you covered over here so the dogs are sleeping right outside the door i'm gonna watch your face and it's going to go horrified and then I'm going to know that I'm about to die. Everybody's upstairs is dead. Right. Everyone's dead. Nothing's going to save me.

The dogs are gone. I have weapons around here. I have my gavels. I have like five gavels right next to you. I'll toss you one and we'll just go double gavel attack and motherfuckers. I've got empty plastic bottles. Oh, one glass one. Do you have a sword around here somewhere?

There's got to be something. I got a cricket bat. There's skateboards? I've got empty plastic bottles. Oh, one glass one. Do you have a sword around here somewhere? There's gotta be something. I got a cricket bat. There's skateboards? I got a fucking cricket bat. There's that picture someone sent us with hypodermic needles in it. I'll stab you right in the eye with one of those fuckers.

I'll rip it right off the painting. So anyway. It's horrifying how vulnerable you are. One question they have is, hey, if he did this one, do you think maybe he's got more murders than he did because he'll just bust into a stranger's house and fucking... Right his own kid he's got no boundaries this guy this is number

one and they said they were looking at him in connection with other unsolved murders the cops said we know there's similar homicides that occurred in that that occurred in that time frame from 89 to 91 so he's definitely someone we're going to be looking at for a long time who the fuck knows if his DNA isn't on shit he could have bodies on him we have no fucking idea

and between 91 and 98 he didn't kill anyone else but he was on crack the whole time he's 21 impregnating a 16 year old he did shit when he was 15

fuck yeah he's in prison right now he's in Florence I found him here's a picture of him now look at his stupid face cock face you see him he's got no lips what? He was 15. Fuck yeah. He's in prison right now. He's in Florence. I found him. Here's a picture of him now. Oh boy. Look at his stupid face.

Cock face. See him. He's got no lips. What? He's the least lipped man I've ever seen in my life. Oh, he looks like a monster. They were surgically removed. He looks like a guy who would rape a church worker and kill him.

He's got no lips and all the eyelids. Yeah. That's drooping down. His DNA put all his lips on his eyelids. He's on death row. Good. He's waiting death row. Good. He's waiting. From what I saw, he was working as a porter in the prison. I looked up.

I found his infractions in prison as well. In 2000, he was written up for disobeying an order. 2001, he was written up for assault with a deadly weapon in prison. That's nice. In 2002, written up for disrespect. 2004, something about destruction of property on the prison grounds. And then 2012, assault on an inmate as well. He's an asshole for his entire life.

Asshole forever. How is he trusted with being a porter there? He was at first. Okay. And then it went away. Yeah. Now, Kara, his wife, here she is. If you want to see a picture of her.

She's got like a cloudy eye at this point in time. It looks like she's like. Oh, boy. I wonder if she was stabbed. I don't know. She's like got some weird. Looks like she's an old movie here. She is also.

Where did they move her to here? I can't find it. Horseshoe or something. Some of it doesn't because they moved her around a bunch. Actually, all over Arizona. All over Arizona. She gets moved all around. She's in there for life, though.

She's got a life sentence. She seems to be working in the prison kitchen for the last few years and has more infractions than John does. Wow. 99, when they first got in, disobeying order. 2002, possessing contraband. 2003, possessing contraband. 2004, selling or trading services. 2010.

Unauthorized smoking or tobacco use. 2012. 2012. Promoting prison contraband, which means bringing it into prison, which is a major offense. 2012. Obeying a verbal or written order. 2012. Theft.

Possession of stolen property. Oh, shit. A bad 2012. Real bad. Four infractions in 2012 all in different job uh february march february march november they're all different they're not even the same incident and then 2013 disobeying verbal or verbal or written order so uh found guilty on all of those as well in the court and so is he found guilty on everything except with the assault

with a weapon he was found uh to be not enough evidence john in prison but they're both in there they're waiting to execute him who the fuck knows but um yeah that is fucked that story is it not that's a guy that certainly deserves his punishment yeah he earned it well yeah we talked about it a lot we're not big death penalty guys i don't know what it solves. It makes people feel good sometimes or whatever, but obviously it's not applied correctly. And there's a lot of fucking problems. If one person who didn't actually do it gets killed, it's bad. At minimum, it keeps that guy from escaping ever.

We know for a fact that this happened. Yeah. He admits it. His wife saw it. His kids saw it. The DNA says it. He saw it his kids saw it the dna says it he did it twice right like at least just hit this guy with a truck for christ's sake like i don't care fuck this guy i don't need we don't need that guy the kids have to be a mess man they have to be i feel bad if

they're not we apologize but i mean if they're even remote if they're not in prison yeah fuck they're amazing their powers of perseverance are amazing if they're not in prison yeah fuck they're amazing their powers of perseverance are amazing if they're not in prison or on a very addictive hardcore drug right now because i don't know how the fuck they could be normal have a normal life you have to i mean that's strength and i and hopefully they stay they got help right if they were in foster care i would hope that they could get some help but if the foster care system here is terrible so i mean it's fucking disgraceful it's embarrassing it's disgraceful like they'd be better off in utah with the you know all right with the mormons i don't know that's his house i don't fuck i don't know where the fuck they'd be better off but that

is a mess of a disaster that's why i said it's a double loop roller coaster you think it's over and it's bad enough and you're like fuck that guy and then you're like oh we have that too which is sort of worse because it's an old lady whose house you had to con your way into the house using a child

not just like I'm here to check the roof, can I use your phone? right, anything, my car broke down down the street here's my kid that's what they told me she said that she needed to use her phone because her car broke down the street here's my kid that's what they told me she said that she needed to use her phone because her car broke down asshole yeah my grandmother's nice and she was like sure this is like a 20 year old girl she's like yeah no problem i'd look today i mean you look him in the face and go you don't have a cell phone your life is a disaster

there's no way you're coming in my house yeah yeah if you don't you don't even have a fucking like a burner the minimum thing that an adult buys first go away new season of love after lockup is out and then every single one of them the first thing they get when they come out of prison is they need a phone brand new first thing you get phone so you can communicate i gotta be able to talk yeah well that everybody is holiday utah and you know by by extension phoenix arizona as well so uh we did a little uh got a little local flavor in there for me and jimmy and for you guys i know where everything was felt nice till the church lady was brutally assaulted and killed and stuffed behind a shed apart from that

apart from that what a touching story addresses were nice that was nice to hear the familiar addresses and uh up in Utah. But yeah, for 23 years, everyone in that neighborhood was scared. They didn't know what happened. Anybody came to solicit or leave a flyer on the door, people were ready to call the cops or ready to shoot them, and they had no idea. Pizza man better get the addresses right every time. Better get that shit right.

You better hold that pizza out front like a fucking white flag. I have pizza. I remembered breadsticks. Put the weapons down. If this is the wrong house, this is yours anyway. I'm leaving. I'm not. Fuck.

I'm running. Leaving it and running. So, yeah, that is that. Hope you enjoyed that show and are disturbed by it as we are, because that was fucking disturbing. I'm so sad. If you have any emotions at all toward it, I got an idea. Get on Apple podcast, that purple icon and give us a review. Give us five stars. I'm so sad. what's your order do you do cheese on the bottom do you cheese on the top maybe cheese in the middle of the meat do you like the peppercorn in the salami i don't know that's terrible pick those

things out yeah i don't want any part of that i don't want peppers in my no i don't like that but i will eat the pimento loaf i don't like that either oh god my grandma used to try to feed me that when i was a kid i'd fucking poke all of it and i love green olives too but i'd fucking poke all the shit out of there then it's just a fucking b. Then it's just a fucking bologna sandwich. Then it's a Swiss bologna sandwich, and it was gross. That's weird. Disgusting. I hate that shit. They always change it.

Love it. So, yeah. Where the hell was I? Do that. I don't even remember. Oh, Apple Podcasts. Purple icon. Sandwiches.

That's right. Tell us what your favorite sandwich is. Doesn't fucking matter. Other than that, keep going to shutupandgivemem me murder.com for everything crime and sports and small town murder related we have uh all new merch up there right now so check that out new stuff popping up all the goddamn time on there for you guys also the tickets to the live shows we're kind of booking those as we go uh they're rescheduling a lot for next year and also no details yet but we're going to be putting on at some point a little virtual something yet, but we're going to be putting on, at some point, a little virtual something for you guys.

We're going to do a virtual live show of some kind. Right. It's probably going to be like the Prisoner Dating Game or something like that because we're going to do it. It's an experiment. We're going to check it out. It'll be ticketed. It'll be ticketed, and you guys can buy tickets and watch it. We're going to do that.

So it's going to be within probably the next month and a half. Yes. So look out for that. More details to come. We'll have more details next week, and then every week after, we'll have to do that. So it's going to be within probably the next month and a half. Yes. So look out for that. More details to come. We'll have more details next week. And then every week after we'll have even more details and then they'll go on sale. So that's the most details.

So check all that out and see us all over there. Listen to crime and sports too. If you haven't, if you're, if you're not, you're, you're blowing it, you're blowing it.

Listen to crime and sports. Also check out PS. I hate this movie on the weekends too, where we talk about bad romantic comedies that's a lot of fun check that out keep coming back check us out on social media maybe do that we're at Murder Small on Twitter at Small Town Pod on Facebook

and at Small Town Murder on Instagram you can find us all on there you want to be a producer who doesn't want to be a producer in just a few short minutes Jimmy's going to butcher so many names it's awesome so you want to be a producer who does in just a few short minutes jimmy's gonna butcher so many names it's awesome so you want to be part of that club be part of that club you know what else you get when you're part of that club you get access to tons of episodes of bonus stuff all our bonus

stuff's like over an hour like there's no like you know we don't do 10 minute bullshit we do a fun thing this week on crime and sports is bonus which you'll have access to because you get access to everything for the $5 on Patreon. Crime and Sports is going to be old personal ads from the newspaper that I find some of the craziest fucking personal ads. So fun. And they're fun as shit. And we go over them from like, you know, 1989 in Kansas. And it's funny as shit. And I try to decipher whatever codes that they used.

Decipher codes. Then we find some ads that you go along with it. It's a trip. You want to check that out. And on Small Town Murders Patreon this week, like we said, you get access to both for the $5. We are going to do an in-depth look at the white trash defense used, I believe, in episode 60 or 61.

61. Was it? Is Blue Diamond Phillips, Oklahoma. Was it 60? That was the one. 61 or 60. Is that Blue Diamond Phillips, Oklahoma. Was it 60? That was the one. 61 or 60. Is that the one with the pandemic that we talked about? I think it was.

That was 61. Same episode. Yeah. I think that's the same thing. But the white trash. I only know that because I've heard it 30 times. Yeah, people keep telling us about it repeatedly since February. Right.

So in that, we talked about this person appealed their murder conviction using something called the white trash defense. uh he meant it this is a legal document describing how not the okay describing how the jury couldn't possibly understand who he is and his lifestyle and horrible multiple murders he committed because they're not white trash now it wasn't that the whole jury it was like eight black guys, two Puerto Rican guys, and the whole jury was 12 white people. It's Phillips, Oklahoma. But he said they weren't white trash like he was.

They were fancy white people, as opposed to he comes from a culture of white trash, which you need to understand to know why it's okay to rape and murder. I'm rednecker than you. Yes. So it's legally the way, it's an amazingly put thing. And we went over it quickly at the very end of the episode when we did that episode. But we'll get into it in depth.

And I found the book that it's based on. And it's fucking hilarious. So we'll talk about that. You can get all that and more over at Patreon.com slash crime and sports. Anybody over the $5 level will have access to that. You just want to be a nice person and donate on PayPal and hear your name mispronounced by Jimmy. Very easy to do that as well. Over at PayPal using our email address, crimeandsportsatgmail.com.

Right. That said, enough of this bullshit, Jimmy. I've heard so much gross stuff in this episode and read it all night. I need to hear good things like the names of the best fucking people in the world who would bring us boxes of food and we would never kill a rape hit me with them jimmy this week's executive producers are christopher paul cow christy hunting troy mungillo or mungillo by the way troy fucking i don't even know how to say thank you thank you so much you're here really thank you we appreciate the shit out of you troy thank you uh. Willis, Tanya, Randall. Oh, it's Tanya Willis, by the way. Randall Martin, Jackie Sukup, Chrissy Ann Castaldi, Donnie Keene, Jordan Bennett, Cindy

Crenshaw, Sarah Ness, Crystal Cooper, Lisa Letterman, Jennifer with no last name, Arthur Weitzel, Lisa Love, David DeBlaker, I think, Kyle Westbrook, Keta. Nope. Yeah. Yeah. What is that? Keta. Ibrook. Keta. Nope. Yeah. Yeah. What is that? Keta? I think it's Keta.

Sorensen? I don't know. Heta. It's Heta Sorensen. Oh, okay. And also Eric Jones. Thank you guys so much for everything you do. Truly, you're changing lives.

You're amazing. Honestly. Other producers this week are Asia Diz... Fuck. Dizerdivic? Nope. Dizerdarvich. Dizdarvich?

I'm sorry. I'm going on. Jamie Lee Thomas, Lauren Demerath, Max, nope, yep, Max Beverly. Damn it. This is going well. Kelly, I know already. Kelly Redinger, Thomas Smith, Carl Doyle, Melissa Turner, William

Bordwell, Haley Irving, Trey Volkanar, Janice Hill, James Marder, Susan Olgis, Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Amanda Knight, Sarah Surridge, Melissa Letterman. I said that earlier. She donated both ways. Thank you. Selena Schmitka, I think, Danielle Swift, Rebecca English, John Windsor Hawkins, Andrea Webster, Samantha Ray Tuttle, Kyle Bailey, Brooke Kale, Brendan Ables, Gardner. What is that?

Grover McDiarmid, Finn. What? Finn Amore. Finn Amore called her own. Justin Bain, Christy Morrison, Todd Albrecht, Al Barak, or Barak, damn it, Stephen, what did I do, Lowney, yep, Jason Lopez, Michalo, Michako, Norton, Donald Prater, Porter, Jesus, Melissa Stoops, Adam Kosman, Robert Larson, Courtney Cabral, Kendra Grannis, David Tapia, Morgan459, Mark Carver, Sarah Smolsky, Ben Escott. I really got to get a better pen.

Trinam71, Alyssa Stanley, Jen Cowherd. Probably dude's wife. I'm sure it's Collins. It's got to be. Absolutely. Angela D. Lloyd, Benedict Brooks, Nora Hamervick, Jacob Magyar, Sean with no last name, Cheyenne Quigley, Nathan Kendall, Margaret Burnett, Mark Gavani, Derek Zarda, A.C, Ryan Hendricks, Brian Humes, Sam with no last name, Michael Renninger, Brandy Coulier, Yahwen, what is this, Yahwen Zor-Luan, I think, Damon Miller, Mary McKenzie, Deanna, nope, that's Diana, probably, Holgison, Turner Stewart, Christy Lee Ramchuk, Ashley Johnson, Shelly Barrett, Lindsay with no last name, Katie Colahan, Dan Rogers, Joshua Ahlers, Tatiana with no last name.

What is this? Raiden? Nope. Caden Vance, Tammy Valentine, Regular John, Flynn Patrick, Brandon Page, Daniel Russell, Eddie with no last name, Ryan Baylor, Frankie Montpet mont mont pettit lisa mariotti lisha lachia latova i think latour i don't know i don't know i'm terrible at writing elizabeth smith michael bizari kimberly pen reading i know prana vos aaron martinez amy neville sherry gilbert gina with no last name kim thompson tina major kim, yep, with a Y, Atwood, Lee Furlonger, Jesus Christ, I'm sweating already.

Caitlin Crawford, Katie Amour, Kristen with no last name, Kristen Bemer, Bremer. Wounded Flute, Robert Gott, Travis Bottman, Darby with no last name, Terrence Ray, Chad Ritchie, Andrew Green, Jennifer Goff, Brooklyn Larimore, Diane Zimmerman, Emily Hoover, Jennifer Reilly, Nick Bennett, Skyla McGee, George Jackson, Don Wittes, Slade with no last name, Tyler Dubois, Michelle Fox, Katie Stowe, Sash Miskiati, nope, Masakoti, Stephen Dole, Aaliyah Mitchell, Joseph Mason, Kevin with a Y, Madsfield, Moosefield, Worsfield. I know Mitchell, Joseph Mason. What is this? Kevin with a Y. Madsfield, Moosefield, Worsfield. I know. That's different. That's not nice. No. Christopher Brock, Nibby with no last name.

Nibby. Rachel Bordenaro. Nope. Jen Schnipke. Yes. Have confidence in yourself, Jimmy. Yes. Bordenaro or whatever it is.

That's the one. Nailed it. Connor Greenwalt, Jessica Somerville, Juan Evans. I almost pronounced the J. Maybe they pronounced their names wrong. That's the thing. Maybe you're right. That's the, you know, we had never thought about that.

We've never even considered that, though. You're right. Emily Milligan Thompson. Smalls with no last name. Jerry Lynn Knight. Amanda McMullen. William Perry. Probably the fridge. The fridge. emily milligan thompson uh smalls with no last name jerry lynn knight uh amanda mcmullen william perry probably the fridge glancy aaron atkins charmaine with no last name sophie f olivia never meaver meaver mauer it's me oh it's me it's a you not a me that's six different pronunciations you just got. Jean Sandridge, Gianne, Jean probably, Charlene Bratcher, Mel Ackerman, Yannette Flores, Ryan Miller, Travis Haslam, Amanda with no last name,

Isabel with no last name, Tanya Willis, Sonia Boer, Jay Boe, Dawn Marie Howell, Rosa Nina Brito, Alejandra Alcantaner, nope, Alcantar, Alcantar, all wrong. Don Smith, Shannon Hakey, Karen Edwards, nope, that's Reynolds. Elkie Kelly, Nicholas Camrath, Liam Smith, Claire Archer Richards, Janica with no last name, Natalie Johnson, Gregory Lado. Michael Terzinski. Nope. Terzinski. Terzinski.

Elizabeth Taylor. Salty Admiral. Chase Randall. Kathleen Marsh. Whitney with no last name. Chelsea McAdams. Emily Marie. Madison Gwynn.

Gwynn. Nick Breidenbaugh. Jesus. Marissa Whiteside. Sherry Mitchell. Emily Marie. I said that. Ryan with no last name.

Christian Ubin, Daniel Rogers, Danielle Rogers, Teacup with no last name. Mayor Maria, Jordan Craig GS, Craggs, Jesus, Matt Bush, Kelly Wilder Outlaw, Robin Back, Michael with no last name, Bat Mock, I think, Corey Osborne, Jason McIver, Nancy Keaton, Madison Peppers, Vicki Williams, Nikki, nope, yeah, Ricky, Ricky LaFleur. Reggae. Reggae. I think that's right.

It might be Rocky. Reggae. Rachel Spears, Laura Blakeslee. She's been around a long time. Yeah, we love Laura. Thanks, Laura. Lainey. Nope. Rainey.

Lainey Korn. Trevor Morris. Tasha Walter. Ted Aspel. Matt. What is this? Matt Robinson. Tom W.

Sandra Watkins. Joseph Widewich. Widenwich. Kay. What is this? Bounds. Banal. Bowness.

Jennifer Jillian. Sarah Litchfield. Litchford, Sean Bertilison, Anna Thompson, Bennett Kilgore, Amy Jezanuski, Morgan and Ben Brooke, Jess and Kyle Norton, Riley Sluder, Alex Ball, Ken with no last name, Alaska, the whole state hailey hailey whalen uh wallen aaron dickie hailey would know last name wade christiansen nathan bland lisa atkinson hannah sedgwick michelle uh donagan craig walters jason bucom going that well. Edmund. Nope. Sorry. Lauren Bryant. Laura Bryant. Pammy B. Tyshawn Abdulaziz. Edward Arnold.

Heather Hall. Holly Simek. Jen. Nope. Jenna Crow. Nicholas fucking what? Paris. Wow. Paraskez. Paraskez. What?

Is it Italian? No, it's worse. There's anopolisis god damn nicholas he's greek yep uh jenna crowe alissa alissa tyler francisca schmidt and ashley sams uh ellen o'hara jessica sheehan april prowley prowl prus pru jennifer proven stacy parrot rev linds i think Jennifer Proven, Stacy Parrott, Rev Lins, I think, Rue, maybe, I don't know, Kaylee Smith, Jenna Thorson, Josh Page, Nicole Delahunt, Kate Coleman, Shauna Moose, Heather Fowler, Cynthia Sofiantini, and also Dev, Laura, and EJ Huesler, and all of our patron supporters. You guys are truly the most fucking amazing.

Thank you. Thank you, everybody, so much for everything you do. Honestly, clearly we can't do it without you. And thank you so much for hanging with us and doing all this shit. Mind-blowing. We have so much more stuff coming up that you guys don't know about. We are going to be up your asses even more. We'll put it that way.

If you like it, good for you. We're going to be putting our stamp on some things, and we're going to be we're going to be up your asses even more we'll put it that way if you like it we're going to be putting our stamp on some things and we're going to be doing some things and we got a new we got new stuff happening and a life that we got a whole bunch of stuff and it's because of you it's because of you guys so the next few months we have a lot more stuff popping off so keep in tune and keep checking it out follow us on social media and you'll hear a lot more than that what if they wanted to follow you or find you how could they do it jimmy it's uh on instagram and twitter at westman sucks that's it what about you uh matt jimmy p is funny and you can follow me if you feel like it and just do that i don't know i like check us out you can just copy and paste my name if you want because you're not going to spell it right but other than that everybody it's been goddamn crazy i think it's

time to go wash ourselves thoroughly. I'm going to wash my eyes out and my ears out. Go wash my butthole. Let's go. Everybody out there, go wash your buttholes. And until next week, everybody,

it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.