Small Town Murder - #200 - Possessed By Stupidity in Brownstown Township, Michigan

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

This week, in Brownstown Township, Michigan, a seemingly normal situation spins very quickly out of control, when a person begins to believe that other people may be possessed by demons... and we all know there's only one way to get rid of the demons, and that's murder! This truly bizarre tale gets even weirder with the post-murder behavior, and belief that 32 stab wounds shouldn't be fatal! Along the way, we find out that Bret Michaels has a lot of songs about flowers, that someone, somewhere has a very strange pamphlet printing business, and that dead people don't sleep it off, and wake up, demon-free!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasting See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Brownstown Township, Michigan, a person seems to suddenly become unhinged, saying and doing some very odd things, including murder. Welcome to Small Town Murder. murder hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay indeed jimmy yay indeed

and welcome oh first of all my name is jamesallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Yes, and welcome to episode 200. Here we are. I was excited. I want to jump the gun on episode 200, which is pretty cool, I got to say. It's awesome. We're happy. Thank you for hanging with us for so long. You guys have been here the entire 200 episodes. Wow. Wow, amazing. If this is your first episode, amazing too.

Hell yeah. Happy to have you on board we have a crazy case as usual today we're gonna go up to michigan which is um nice we always have fun in those is that our first episode no no we had i think the fourth was sarah fourth was manistee manistee yeah so we've done a few michigans they're always weird we like that michigan minnesota wisconsin uh illinois raw midwest yeah iowa that whole area man you guys We like that Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois. Raw Midwest. Yeah, Iowa. That whole area, man.

You guys have some good murders out there, everybody. I got to tell you. You're losing your minds, and it's interesting to chronicle after murders. You're perfecting the crazy ones. You really are. So before we get into it this week, yes, thank you for being here for 200 episodes. It's episode 200, so if you haven't done it yet, Apple Podcast, that purple icon. It's been 200 episodes.

You know what? I was going to wait a while, but I figure after 200 episodes, what the heck, I'll give it to them. So do that. That helps out a lot. Head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com

for everything small town murder and crime and sports related. Get all your merchandise there. You'll have updates on the live show, reschedules and everything. By the way, virtual live show. Speaking of alive will take place january the 29th uh no prisoner dating game it's going to be a regular episode just like a live show like we do on the actual show yep we're going to pretend like the the camera lens is the theater and we're going to have a ball with that we got mics and everything so it's gonna sound great it's gonna be awesome enjoy that and we'll let you know when tickets go on sale for it but

january 29th mark that down right now listen to crime and sports if you haven't yet give it a shot it's been we had murder this week we did listen to her a cold case dna case it was crazy check that out also listen to ps i hate this movie because i had to watch twilight yeah to make that and as you can imagine, I was not thrilled. I don't know that I would do it. I lost. I can't imagine. I lost my mind several times, both during the recording and the watching.

So that's all fine. Spadison terrific. It's new. That sounds terrible. So also, Patreon. We have so much bonus stuff and you need to have it because it's really good. Get on Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports.

The last one we put out a couple days ago was just kind of a history of Thanksgiving Day murders. It's a lot. It was so – that was a crazy episode. You need to hear that episode. I mean, it's surprising. It's surprising. It is. I really was surprised, but there's so many of them, and it's kind of through history.

Some of them are real old, so they're just goofy as can be, and it's a lot. So check that out. Murder on Thanksgiving is nothing new, and we found that out. We figured it out. We did the Mark Chimura trial for the crime and sports bonus, and you'll get access to all that stuff at patreon.com slash crime and sports, and you'll get a shout out. Jimmy will mess up your name at the end of the show. And in addition to that, if you want to just get your name messed up and have good karma,

you can do that over at PayPal using our email address. Crime and sports at Gmail dot com. Disclaimer quickly. Yeah, it's a comedy show. It is. It is. Stories are real. Yeah, I think.

How hard would it be to write these stories? Impossible. It'd be ridiculous. So, yeah, it would be like just a med lib. It's hard enough to write it all down. Right. Just what happened. Yeah. write these stories impossible it'd be ridiculous so yeah it would be like just a mad lib basically it's hard enough to write it all down right just what happened yeah if i had to make it up it'd be crazy so they're all real nothing's embellished for comedic effect but crazy things happen around murders that's a wild decision it is let's kill that person there's some funny stuff happening

there so it's just wild what we go out of our way to do is we try not to make fun of the victims or the victims families why because we're assholes you get it but we're not scumbags that's how it works now if you think that sounds awesome we're gonna have a good time if you don't think true crime and comedy should ever go together then maybe we're not for you you never know listen though give it a shot because i don't think it's probably what you think it is but if not then we get it don't complain later right we what you think it is. But if not, then we get it. Don't complain later. Right. We warned you.

But for everybody else that wants to hear a crazy story for the 200th time, that's, by the way, the next few episodes are insane. The calendar is wild right now. So lock in and stay locked in and shout, Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. All right. Let's go on a trip yeah shall we let's do it another trip our 200th trip we are going to brownstown township michigan it's

a lot of town why would you need brownstown not brownstown right brownstown township and in the middle of that it's sometimes called brownstown Charter Township. They stick that in there sometimes to make it more complicated. Sometimes they just call it Brownstown. Sometimes Brownstown Township. Sometimes the whole enchilada go with the charter in there as well. Up in Michigan, this is southeastern Michigan. Suburban Detroit is what this is. It's about a half hour to downtown Detroit in the burbs.

45 minutes over to Ann Arbor. If you want to go somewhere else, it's kind of civilization. to downtown detroit in the burbs uh 45 minutes over to ann arbor i want to go somewhere else it's kind of civilization for the colleges right yeah yeah and then two hours and 10 minutes to nashville michigan which was episode 161 my god our last michigan episode which has been paying attention apparently not in nashville nashville michigan jesus we were and on march 4th oh which i it was like a body in a ditch on the side of the road, which I don't blame you for not remembering because March 4th feels like, I don't know, 1941. It might as well be. How crazy.

That's another. I saw a picture from Thanksgiving because Facebook likes to remind you of shit every year. And I was like, oh, that doesn't seem like that long ago. Then I started thinking, it seems like fucking six years ago. Yeah. It's wow. Yeah, it's crazy, honestly.

This year has been so long. It's been a bit of a long year. This is in Wayne County, Michigan. Like I said, where Detroit is, same county. Area code 734. It is 30 square miles, so a big area. There's a lot of little townships in here, little zip codes under this umbrella. Michigan works weird the way they do their towns.

So the motto here, they have a motto, quote, where the future looks brighter. It's awfully optimistic. And there's an addendum to that, though. There's a postscript. As soon as the smog clears? Well, there's a postscript to it where it comes back every once in a while. It's where the future looks brighter. And so does the water because it's probably radioactive.

So seriously, don't drink it. Don't give that to your kids. Seriously. Those are headlights. Get off the road. Get a bottle of water. Yeah, this isn't good. Exactly.

That's not great. So I'm sure that we don't want anybody's water quality to be terrible. It's awful. Michigan, have they figured it out yet? I don't think anybody's water quality to be terrible. It's awful. Michigan, have they figured it out yet? I don't think it's that good yet, honestly. I haven't heard an update about them fixing it. And you still can't drive on their roads either, I know. Their roads are still...

What is that? You've got to bring a grappling hook and a winch to your... You propel. You have to pull people out of potholes sometimes that are very, very big. It's unbelievable. Just to see an old lady's hand waving. It's really... Help her! She fell in of potholes sometimes that are very very big it's unbelievable just to see an old lady's hand waving it's really help her she fell in the pothole she's got a deville in there it's it's her whole car it's a 78 buick it's huge i don't know she's standing on the roof of it i barely see her hand it's very deep this place is it's really baffling it's tough

man so prior to the time it was a township, the area was involved in the War of 1812, actually. So it dates back a long time. People have been here for a while because it's right by the lake. So anything by water has been populated the longest, obviously. What? It's up by Canada, too. Who fought in the War of 1812? I'm sorry. there's a i'm us and we're so this was the that's my fault the british were back and then the the canadians and the french were involved really yeah it was a it was a quite quite a

little we were a skirmish there was a skirmish yeah we were all uh involved in everybody everybody was involved yeah there was a lot of shit to settle. I know I could have paid attention. There was a lot of shit to settle. A lot of classes and I didn't. Just pay attention to this show. I think we've talked about it before. Never mind school.

Have we talked about really the plot of it? Probably not the War of 1812 very much. You mainly talk about revolutionary and the Civil War. You probably just assume I knew. I mean, how do we know? I don't know. Why would I assume you know? I've heard of that war.

I mean, it's a war yeah it's but it's a popular one yeah it's happened a lot of people were in it i think whole bunch of people did that man i don't know much about it either so the region uh now known as brownstown was once part of the french province of quebec okay that's kind of what this was all about the area eventually fell into the hands of the british and finally came into into the american rule in the seven 1700s so this went back and forth a lot all these borderlands right they shift quickly saying southwest is the same way with mexico you know till there's a big war and then they can and then

they set some some parameters like yeah sand and we all agree pretty well one side agrees and the other side agrees with a gun to their head and that's the end of the conflict so the original 43 square mile area which is land south of detroit was designated a township by the michigan territorial council on in 1827 and moses roberts was elected as their first supervisor so wow made brownstown one of wayne county's nine original townships now the person it was named for is an eight-year-old boy oh boy well he grew up but an eight-year-old boy named adam brown he apparently was kidnapped by there's this so the legend goes i mean this happened in the 1700s so honestly he wandered off let's be honest who knows yeah he could have just he could have

been just wandering away and tripped and hit his head on a rock and rotted in the woods and nobody found him and they were like let's make a legend yeah he never came back so he must be king of the bear people or something who knows so they uh he was kidnapped by the wyandotte indians as the legend goes and uh and they were in virginia i guess they took him there and this is an account as recorded by a.s withers in the chronicles of border warfare this is just a quote from their quote October 1764 a mixed band of 50 Mingo and Delaware warriors raided Carpenter's Fort in Virginia they killed Carpenter and made prisoners of Carpenter's son and two brothers Samuel and Adam Brown so that's the Adam Brown is the young boy I guess he ended up growing up among the tribe yeah that he was kidnapped into

and ended up marrying a native woman and uh according to the the whole historical historical uh you know accounts of the thing he ended up becoming like an important tribal elder became one of the leaders of the tribe wow which is strange but yeah it happened i guess and i guess his name is on several treaties with the american government interesting signing for the yeah signing for the indian side so very very interesting and then he sided with the british in the war of 1812 uh and uh moved to amherst it was amherst Berg, Ontario after the British defeat. So that was up in Canada. Obviously Canadian shirts are a church record show that he died in September of

1827 in Windsor, Ontario. And as time passed, they, uh, they started making this into land and they ended up, that was the year they incorporated the town and they named it after him because I guess he died that year.

Very nice. So his name was in the, on the, his name was in the consciousness at the time. The township is also home to the Chevrolet battery pack assembly plant right now. Oh, my. So the Chevrolet Volt battery pack, the volts they make. For those cars. Yeah, for the cars there. So there's that.

And yeah, it's part of a collection of communities known as Down River. Gross. That sounds awful. Just shit floating. Yeah. Shit floating down from Detroit. Wonderful. The three separate segments are due to the incorporation of the city's flat rock, rock wood, and wood haven.

So anything with rock or wood, it must have in the title. You have to have that in there. I have reviews of the town. Can't wait. They're all, you'll see a pattern here. This town is very, very mediocre. We'll put it that way. Here's a three-star review.

It's an average review. Quote, not a bad place, but not an amazing place. Not very diverse. So if you want any foods that are a bit more diverse, you might have to drive a bit. So there you go. Small town. I see strip malls yeah it's that sort of thing i see a lot of like domino's pizza barbecue joints or hamburgers yeah what's the pizza they have there what's the detroit one oh what's their chain i don't remember

detroit has a type of pizza though and it's actually pretty good that's all right it's fine that's fine it's a deep better than whatever the hell they're serving in cincinnati it's just a thick crust it's a pan crust yeah yeah but it's a it's not bad though it's actually a spongy crust it's yeah it's it's a good flavor to it no it's tasty it's a fuck with detroit it's a tasty pizza i like it there so uh you know is it the worst pizza i had was salt lake city salt lake city we ordered pizza and it was hot all the pizza there in salt lake city for some reason spicy pizza yeah there's a thing that's a favorite which isn't okay because i'm after a show i want to eat like five slices of pizza my fucking lips were on fire after we couldn't eat the pizza just it was a spicy but it was cheese right spicy cheese right it was burning i mean i like a little

spice but this was like you couldn't eat three slices of pizza because your lips were on fire. That's in the sauce, right? It was gotta be. I took the cheese off. It was hot. I ate just the cheese. Just the cheese was hot.

The crust was hot. Everything was fucking hot. Which Salt Lake City, what are you doing? That's the most mild, boring place in the world. The least spicy place at least in America. There's not a speckle of pepper in that entire city. Never mind. They put it all in our pizza.

That's it. They're stuffing it in there. Chilies or something. Weird. Yeah, so here's a three star. I would say it is an average suburban town. There's a big mall with a movie theater near where I live. All right.

So it sounds just... Can't go wrong there. The Burbs. Three stars. One of the things I enjoy about brownstown michigan is the familiarity i know this shit i know this shit it's not that much to know i enjoy living in a small enough city where i'm able to know my way around every corner although i do get bored of the city easily and would like to see more activities for teenagers to do in the future okay here's one

that's very specific to this person one star hard to find a job with respectable co-workers that's all i mean he's a very specific beef that people take out on a review of a whole town two people bob and ted were dicks at work and every job i get there's a bob and a ted there every last one of them must be the town's fault how does everybody get to hire a bob and a ted not my fault not just a bunch of me not me it should all be me i'm amazing here's three stars there are a lot of teenagers pulling pranks some have chopped down our mailbox three times what threw eggs on my car and put stink bombs on my porch not a very big fan of living here because of that.

Well, yeah, it sounds like those kids are the problem. It's probably a specific group of kids, I'm going to say. Who chops down a mailbox? Chopped it down three times. Three times. I'm taking, you will not have a mailbox, motherfucker. No mail, I told you. Find a kid with an ax and you got your wow he's walking

around looking for wow uh okay here's another three star the area i live in is decent however it is not anything spectacular it's exactly this mediocrity there are not a lot of fun activities to engage in and there are not a lot of beautiful parks to visit the school district is a really good one and there's nothing bad to say about it. I enjoy living here. However, I would not mind moving to a prettier, more fun area. So I kind of like it, but I don't, and I'll move, but maybe not. Careful on how you describe fun, sir.

Your neighbor hates the stink bombs on his porch. Maybe that's fun. They think it's fun. You know what? Maybe you're not fucking around the right way. Maybe you need to get out there with some stink bombs and an axe and have yourself a ball buy yourself a potato gun sir find yourself some mailboxes yeah you ever done that get some dry ice and some two liter bottles mix it up buy like a 75 ford pickup and just hit them with your car you can hit me it's more efficient with the

mailboxes but boom boom i knew a kid who had a steel truck i know a kid who had a 72 duster yeah in high school yeah it was the biggest piece of shit it had no floor in the back like holes so you could pee kids would piss out of the holes while the car was moving yeah you pull up the floor mat you got floor mats so it was you know rocks wouldn't shoot up in the eye while you were driving because that keeps the salt out of the car exactly exactly but this car was a giant steel shit box and we'd be driving and he'd be in a neighborhood and he would just go swerve into and just pang pang metal garbage cans flying all over the place boom boom he'd take out a fucking mailbox no it was he didn't give a shit about his car start back on the road and get his balls off boom boom man he just be

gone he was just laughing he was a dumb kid too he's real dumb but i mean oh it was the funniest goddamn thing in the world what are you doing why'd you do that now if somebody did that i would kill them yeah right well in arizona thankfully we have cinder block uh yeah good mailbox yeah that's not gonna fuck your car up yeah good luck you're on the civic won't take a mailbox mine out front front, it's built into a two-foot-wide brick structure. There's no way. Cultured stone around it. Oh, you'd have to.

Anchored two feet in the ground. Yeah. You need some crowbars and hammers and axes and shit to get at that. It's sturdier than bullards around a gas pump. It is. It really is. Well, my mail is safe anyway, so that's helpful. I'm very happy about that.

So people in this town, population 31,026. So, yeah, and it's up a lot since 1990. Our case took place in the 70s, so it was a lot lower then. It was kind of more out there burbs. It was farmland and shit around here. Now it's getting just more suburban. But it's up 65% since 1990. Female and male populations about normal.

Median age is 40 years old. It's a couple of years older than normal, but nothing extreme. No wild. There's not an exorbitant number of elderly people or anything. Middle-aged Detroit commuters. Kind of. They have kids. Married population is a little bit higher than usual here.

It's that sort of thing. Divorce rate's a little higher, too. Wow. Hey, I mean, people are going to lose their minds. Sometimes people are a pain bit higher than usual here. It's that sort of thing. Divorce rate's a little higher, too. Wow. Which, you know, hey, I mean, people are going to lose their minds. Sometimes people are a pain in the ass. Yeah. You never know. So everything else, though, is about average single with children, all that kind of shit.

Racially, even race of this town, 79% white, about almost 8% black, 5% Asian. So close to the averages. A little more white, a little less black, but everything else is pretty close. Less Hispanic people, too. 6.7% there. Religion, 42.2% of the people here are religious. Interesting. Yeah, and it's spread around.

Mostly Catholic is 17%, but it's not- It's not overwhelming. It's not blowing anybody away here. There's 6.55 other and shit like that 0.0 jewish though not happening but 3.6 islam interesting michigan has large islamic communities that's true yeah there's a lot a lot and that might be the highest one we've ever had it really might be a small town we don't get that a lot no it's that's that's like when you get a small town near minneapolis and you're like fucking 22 asian in town near Minneapolis and you're like, fucking 22% Asian in Minneapolis.

And you're like, oh, yeah, there's a lot of Asian people in Minneapolis. So unemployment rate in this town, it's pretty low because of that factory. You have a couple of factories and apparently it's commutable, too. So there's jobs around here and some manufacturing jobs, especially. Unemployment rates about national average. Household income, though, is a little bit higher out here. Yeah. National average, $57,652.

Here, $72,289. That's great. So, not too shabby. Like I said, manufacturing jobs, a lot of jobs at the vault battery factory and shit like that. Cost of living in this town, $100,000 is average. Here it's $104,000. Okay. So not that bad.

That's pretty good. And you're making $20,000 more than national average. That's what I mean. That's right. So not too shabby. Housing is an $89,000 out of $100,000. Median home costs $206,500. Okay.

Not too bad. But there's a lot of homes available between $100,000 and $300,000. Terrific. So you can live in this place. Over 70% of the houses are worth between $100,000 and $300,000. So it's a lot of average. It's just a mediocre town. It's just a very mediocre town.

And if we've convinced you to shoot for mediocrity, you know what? Why shoot for the stars? Shoot for the middle, babe. Don't shoot for the basement. Let's shoot for mediocrity. You know what? Why shoot for the stars? Shoot for the middle, babe. Don't shoot for the basement. Let's shoot for something nice and comfortable. We have for you the Brownstown Township Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $967. Doable.

Doable. It's about right with the way it works here. I found a four-bedroom, one-bath, 1,555-square-foot vinyl siding as far as the eye can see. Yeah. One of those here. It's a bit dumpy. Yeah. Nothing special.

The kitchen's kind of crappy, stuff like that. But $149,900 for four bedrooms, 1 four bedrooms 1500 square feet you can have a couple of kids and one goddamn survive that's rough i'm sure it's one and a half i hope it's one and a half i'll bet it's one oh no that's rough that's not easy here's a four bedroom two bath 1575 square foot so it's kind of the same house but nicer okay more up to date you know it's it's had a renovation done in the last 10 years right and this one's 205 000 so right that's not bad it's i mean you can get it renovated and everything then hey you're the let's say you're the you're the manager down at the vault battery factory there i found a three bedroom four bath tea bowl for every b-hole and one to go and one leftover guest b-hole not bad 2,776 square feet

yeah it's a good size it's brick it's really nice brick house with nice manicured bushes and grown in trees really nice 310,000 bucks not bad at all that's so affordable that's very compared to other cities that's really affordable for a big house like that you can't get that if you look at phoenix real estate you're not getting that you're never getting that you're getting nothing made of brick anyway especially not but it is plywood and mud that's it you could kick your way through a phoenix house you can't yeah don't bother breaking in a door if you want to burglarize a house just kick your way through the door because it's just plywood and chicken wire that's it you can just kick right through it keep kicking the wall uh and then use some wire cutters to get the rest of the way that's it and then you just walk right

into the house big pile of shit things to do in this town here the uncle sam jam oh what i mean what does that sound like to you the uncle sam j Jam. Is it 4th of July? Yeah, but it just looks really cheesy. I saw the one picture they have. There's a couple up. There's one of the logo, which is Uncle Sam with fireworks and a guitar and a Ferris wheel. That's pretty cool. A guitar over one. Like an 80s, like a red electric guitar with the like a...

A Sammy Hagar I Can't Drive 55 guitar hanging over his shoulder. And a Ferris wheel over the other shoulder with with fireworks and he's pointing at you he also seems to have like a sneer like yeah motherfucker like that's what he seems like he's saying i want you motherfucker to have a beer and come to relax i want you to stand and cheer this is what they really want you to see the stage performance see the smoke machines and it looks looks like it's in a small place. That, I could see zooming in on the back of his jacket, because I'm like, who is that person with long blonde hair singing in the front?

And it says, Bret Michaels Band. Of course it is. So that is Bret Michaels, not even with poison. Right. Dude, it's just Bret Michaels Band. Bret Michaels post Rock of Love. That Brett Michaels. They're like, do every rose as it's thorn. He's like, I can't.

I have to pay other people. I can't do that. I'm going to do every tulip as its root. Every tulip has several petals. You ready? One, two, three. Every tulip has several petals. Not just that.

Does she love me? Does she love me not? So many things you can do with petals. This song is awful. Every dandelion, you can blow off all the seeds through the wind every daisy is white come on everybody until easter when it's died everybody come on you put in me come on everybody join me like we don't i'll bet he's i'll bet he says exactly that though come on everybody woo i

guarantee it at some point a lot probably seems like a come on everybody woo kind of guy yeah giant douche yeah take your tits out he's a take your titties out he is he's definitely a guy that says things that shouldn't be said today oh yeah a lot he's like i mean yeah not to be a jerk you ever watch rock of love recently oh the things actually yes we had to watch it for some podcast so bad it's horrific he's like that show is just basically him saying all the different things that make him horny he's like i'd like to like put the women in a room yeah like against their will of course and um if we could just like slip drugs into their drinks and then take their panties away and let's see what happens right i'm in plaid skirts no

panties right in a sick sort of way it makes me feel good whole floor nothing but camera you know i'm saying whole floors a camera lens i think we should do it man it's gonna he would say brett calm down you have diabetes and you're 60 horny bastard you old horny fuck we know it's under that bandana horn dog bald fucking head is what's under that wispy wispy blonde hair one of the dads asked him if he still has hair and he was pissed it's like yeah that's a logical question it's a logical question you have a lot of it coming out of the back yet you have a hulk hogan do-rag and we've been conditioned right if we see long flowing blonde hair and there's a do-rag on top there's nothing under that do-rag and that's why up there and that's why you wear it.

That's why you're wearing it. Those are extensions. Otherwise, you'd have fucking more hair popping out. Otherwise, you'd be jacked to not wear that fucking bandana. Yeah, you'd be showing it off for crazy like you did

back in the day when he used to just wear it like on his forehead. Over the forehead. Exactly. So it wouldn't block his hair. You never saw that shit go over his head and poison?

Went around the front and the hair came over. Oh, yeah. And now... So you had to whip and poison went around the front and the hair came over oh yeah and now so you had to you had to whip it around show the ladies what's up now it straps over the top and you use the back to whip around he knows what he's doing we get it brett we got it just be the new wilford brimley and be fine with it happened about the same time where he had that permanent eye makeup put on about that time but he tattooed fucking eyeliner what the hell's going on why does he wake up like that that's weird oh got it oh i see his skin's died oh that's not all right yeah that's not normal so it's fine to do but i'm like that's not like naturally

occurring in his body is what i meant not normal it's gonna be weird when you're 80 and doing diabetes commercials and you've still got that shit on your face. So I found 2021 music festivals and music events in Michigan here. And I'll just run down the list of them because the names are pretty funny here. One, the Jill Jack Annual Birthday Bash. I don't know what the fuck that is. The Motor City Music Convention Record Show. The Lansing Record and CD Show. Okay. The CD. No one's buying. by it's 2021 who the fuck is buying cds and it's it's at the quality in okay now makes and it says dealers from four states

find lps cds 45s dvds and other music related wow that sounds great just jesus christ just get you know that media that teenagers like and then we'll do it at the hotel. We don't have to go far to stuff them in a room after we kidnap them. We'll put drugs in them, and we'll sing every dandelion has its spore, and it's going to be fine. So I like it. The Sphinx Competition and Finals Concert, which is an annual event for black and latino classical string players okay they're very nice and the wcx wcsx annual classic rock swap meet holy shit what is that what do you think it is classic rock swap fucking meat buying all the merch that other people bought put it together that's a sweet deaf leopard. Oh, man, that's a pyromaniac.

Look at that. That thing's badass. Is that motor oil stains? Oh, damn right. It is worth more with them on them. I've been working on my truck for the last 20 years wearing this shirt. Beautiful crime rate in this town. What we're interested in property crime.

Just it's just over half the average. So it's very pretty safe in terms of property crime. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one third under the national average as well. Great. So, yeah, you get right outside in the suburbs here and it's a pretty safe, pretty safe little suburban town. Strip malls, malls, crap. I love it.

Yeah, it's one of those type of places here. So murder is what we need to talk about so let's talk about our 200th murder all right let's do it welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on wondery plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never

be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

So, all right, let's start out. We're going to go back to 1977. We're going to start out right in the middle of one. I like to sometimes we'll start out kind of here's a body. Sometimes we'll go. Let's go back to the 40s. This person was born and we'll talk about their upbringing. Sometimes let's just go. Let's just jump into the middle of some people's lives here

bicentennial plus one that's it this is the one here it's everyone we're still all still all jack we've done this 200 years oh my god 200 years and by the 70s we were looking to yeah cut it short i think at that point it almost all fell apart so uh we've got to talk about a guy named Bruce Orville Ramsey. So Bruce. And Orville is his middle name. He's lucky it wasn't the other way around. Yeah. That's a tough one.

Tough name to get through. Orville Ramsey sounds like you're a proctologist. There's a country singer named Orville Peck, and he is terrific. Really? He's so bizarre. But I don't know how he landed on Orville. Unless that's his real name. Maybe he's into proctology.

Maybe. I don't know. He does on the side. He disappears for a while. Those doctors have to keep up on new. Yeah. He has to read the medical journals and things. He's got to come off the road every once in a while.

Where's a lot of pink and frills? It's possible he's into it. Before every show show he slaps the glove on his band's like oh man he's like come on everybody you know the deal you know what i like i gotta make sure there ain't no polyps or nothing before we get going i don't fit on a stage with no man with no polyps you want to sing every goddamn begonia fucking hell unbelievable flowers sing every hibiscus

has its leaves then that's fine but you're gonna have to take the finger first you want to get into that that bonus course about poinsettias you better bend it right on now boy i got a lot of songs to sing bend down over i could name flowers all goddamn day tell you what come here honey they all got something let's do it so i'm digging that oh god brett michaels releases an entire just an entire album of fucking flower themed songs everything but a rose everything but a rose all the same every song starts out you wait there's a book it's just the same fucking track three same shit a different flower has a different something mixed into it i want it now i want it to like down to like an orange blossom i want everything if he did it though people would buy that because it's hilarious they would they would

download that but he wouldn't do it because he's got too much pride yeah he's got too much pride he takes himself too serious imagine him doing that shit with a straight face like in the old poison video he's like dead serious yeah that shit would be pretty viral it'd be fucking funny it'll be much better if he does that shit every song uh from that album at this festival that would be great from the start to the end then he walks off stage and goes give me the check the crowds every time it starts their first couple times the guitar starts like oh it's gonna be every rose has a star and they're happy and they're like i don't know what the fuck is by the end of it they're just throwing cheap beer at him what does he talk did he just i i don't know he just brought up marigold i don't

know what's happening marigold i don't i don't know this is he and every time it starts there's less and less hope right i don't think it's no yeah i see him fucking daisies of course what he's gonna do eat it brett give him the finger at minimum he should take the state flower and every time he plays a song in that state just do it about that flower just the state flower in your fucking song cactus fucking blossom here we go i would love that i would love that man on a four count every bird. It's got a pointy beak. It's like, Brett. It doesn't even fit, Brett.

The syllables don't even work, Brett. Brett, come on. He's like, it's all about. That's all it is, man. I make a face. I make a serious face. And I do a hard strum. And that doesn't matter what the hell the song is.

He doesn't care. State Flower Brett. Let's go. state flower tour michael's bad state flower tour fucking hit a magnolia let's go sponsored by miracle It's fucking perfect. Sponsored by fucking Roundup. Oh, my God. Home Depot and Lowe's are chomping at the bit. Huge, huge. Like, oh, man. Nothing's going to say Lowe's like this right here.

So anyway, 1977, Bruce Orville Ramsey, who is not a member of Poison that we know of. I mean, he might have filled in for somebody at some point. We don't know. So he's married at this point to a woman about his age. This is Beatrice Ramsey. She goes by Barbara. Yeah. Everybody called.

Yeah. Beatrice. And in the 70s, too, the only B was B Arthur, too, who was like she was maud, which is fine. She's hilarious. Very talented. But nobody wants to. No woman was like, I want to be hot like maud right which is fine she's hilarious very talented but nobody wants to no woman was like i want to be hot like maud you know hey how you doing this chain smoking maud yeah hey how you doing i'm gonna be on the golden girls later and

everyone's gonna know who i am and just yeah it'd be arthur so barbara a little bit better barbara's a very 70s name yeah Every woman was named Barbara in the 70s. So Bruce here works. It's a very 70s name to Bruce and Barbara. How do you? If your name's, you just hear a couple, Bruce and Barbara, pick the decade. You go, that's 1970s probably, right? 60s, 70s, somewhere around there.

Porn mustache. They've known each other since the 60s. At least. Yeah. Porn mustache on him, you know, washes the car every Saturday on the driveway. So he works for the Ford Motor Company plant in Woodhaven. So he's got like a good steady job. And that's to you work.

You live in this area in up in the 70s. If you still had a job at the plants, you're doing great. Yeah. That was basically if you didn't get laid off, life was great. They still had made great money and still did really well in these plants so um you know he's doing really you know pretty decent for himself at least you know good blue collar living in a nice suburb that's especially back in the 70s a little bit more yeah open and suburban uh they have two children together which um that's good as well a little boy little girl

so you know they're they're having a a little suburban existence here nice little suburban existence uh thing is though about 1977 he starts kind of going off the rails a little bit he's not happy anymore well i don't know if he's not happy anymore but he turns most people you know like you get like a midlife crisis because he's born he's born in 1943 so at this point you know he's not that much he's only 32 years old but he's got like kind of an early midlife crisis i don't know if they came on earlier back then maybe because people didn't live as long yeah so even the 70s even still expectancy yeah you got a job at the plant right out of high school so it was a different life he's got 10 years in already yeah that's what i'm saying so i don't know what it was but seems like he's having like a midlife crisis or something because

he's always just like a steady family guy works at the ford motor plant which just like everybody else and uh two kids wife burbs church going know, goes church on Sundays. But he starts getting a little weird in 1977, as a lot of people did. This is a time of, like, people were swinging and people were doing weird shit. People are living lives a little better than me. Yeah. Having more fun doing it. There you go. Yeah.

More fun. And he's got a weird mix of, like, that mixed with the fact that he is a product of a family who is like a really really southern fundamentalist religious family okay snake handling you know fire and brimstone like not into it and like hill shit too not not even like you know we're talking like you know hill revivals and shit like that in in kentucky where he's not into it and like hill shit too not not even like you know we're talking like you know hill revivals and shit like that in in kentucky where he's from yeah this is different that's just take it too far it's it's just different yeah we're talking you know the the it's you can live it that way that's fine it's fine it makes it makes normal i hate saying it

like that it makes most people that are not used to that they come into your church on sunday they're a bit uncomfortable well shit's weird it's kind of the old everything in moderation okay i mean i'm not going to tell you anything's bad because some people can some people i'm not going to tell you religion's bad some people it helps them a lot yeah really does gives them comfort gives them whatever great good for you fuck great i smoke weed you have that don't judge me i don't judge you we'll shake hands and agree to disagree it's fine we both sleep fine at night that's what i mean i don't care whatever's good for you dude go for it you know what i mean i don't care unless as long as you're not hurting anybody knock yourself out there's the qualifier if it's all for you and

you're feeling good and it makes other people feel go for it hey who am i to judge who are we to judge we're idiots yeah we're a couple of idiot comedians we don't know shit you don't want to know what i do that makes me feel good no it's gross i know about it half of it it's pretty gross you don't want to know about it so i'm telling you it's it's i'm not saying it's everybody has their thing too i think and it's not bad we'll just put it that way it's not bad but at this moment in time that it seems like he's like a guitar string that's a little too tight okay between the suburban life that's supposed to be all great and the fundamentalist upbringing that's got this like uh this hardcore uh i don't know the word i'm even looking for here but just a fundamentalism of religion, just a real purity of that he has to be.

And that's a lot of pressure. Too much religion is like too much anything. Yeah. You know, people use Coke and do it fine. That's the thing. It's not a well-known thing because a lot of times, you know, it's very addictive and people can't control it. But I've known people who have used Coke here and there for years.

Not I've never not never a lot yeah recreationally and they do it fine they have a good time with it sure most people that doesn't work for them so i mean that person figures out a way to have moderation some people can have moderation in religion or moderation in flip side of the coin things that are good for you you can have too much water you can have too much yeah you'll die if you drink too much water that's a fact and it's moderation in everything it's is good yeah it's just good so this guy though goes from all one to just i'm gonna snap one day okay okay so out of nowhere he basically strays from the church in mid-1977 sort of strays from the church stops going with his family doesn't pay attention starts drinking alcohol okay starts smoking weed oh you never did before the rails we haven't seen those

in a minute yeah he is going he's way off yeah he's going from i mean working at the plant yeah you know voting for nixon yeah you know just kind of i'm a straight i'm silent majority fucking that kind of guy with my two kids in the suburbs to weed smells good what is that oh look at ass on that one well you know what hmm that dickle ain't looking so bad i'm gonna have me a party and that's what he's interesting what he does yeah he starts smoking weed starts screwing around on his wife oh that's not good and i don't know what comes first but i think it's that first the the wife i think you fuck around on your wife and then you're like well i'm doing that might as well do other shit yeah that's that's what i think it is because i think i don't know i guess whatever draws you if you're a guy that's drawn by alcohol drugs or

women it depends though because desires if you're just living your life in the day-to-day with a wife and kids and you're going to church it's rarely find a girl to stray off that path with. You know what I mean? So going the other way, being in bars all the time, smoking weed, a little easier to find a girl than a fucking married dude. So it's possibly that it's the booze, then the weed, then the girl. That's a good point. I can see it that way. It could go either way.

Or the girl could be like, he could like a girl and she could be like, come over here. I like to smoke weed and drink booze. And he's like, sure, me too. I'll try one of these. Does that mean I'm getting laid? Yeah. I'll try the one that I'm used to and then we'll go from there. Yeah, I think, and men are, ladies who are listening, you can get an insight here.

Men are motivated in our reptile brain. We have our intellectual brain also where we can the one that pays the bills yeah the one where we can kind of sort all these thoughts out but in our reptile brain which by the way no amount of of anything will fix just because it's nature yeah you know that's why there's a population yeah because we're gross right i mean let's be honest if we weren't pushing it that's what it is we had to wait for the time it's a great thing i'm just saying but if we had to if we waited for the time that a woman brought it up first this population would be much thinner it would be thinner yeah yeah for sure yes i would say so too we're we're

we're usually we're the ones trying to make the sale yes for the most part is what i'm getting at women enjoy it just as much as men do that's not a that's oh absolutely but we show up at the door with the right with the encyclopedias you might love to read them but we're outside going it's a wonderful beautiful volume from a to b bound in leather look it's got everyone he learned about flowers and brett michaels so you can understand his new album check it out here check out the f section full of flowers that's us on the doorstep and you're like that's not bad let me in and then you like it so it's fine women aren't buying cars based on the amount of dudes that are going to try to fuck them yeah that's what that's what i'm saying yeah we know that everybody can be the aggressor but that's not what we're saying we're just saying that it's

men are constantly on a path no matter what they do every decision we make if we're single even if we're not specifically it's specifically tailored towards is this going to help me get pussy exactly what it is when you're single you're just like will women like this right which one of these options that i have will women hate least and then as you get older that's really what it is as you get older though usually you kind of you're you know you adopt the uh you adopt the the the wu-tang philosophy of life which i just remember it was a interlude in one of the albums where they were talking about all this stuff and one guy's talking about it was real you know misogynist shit for the most part but it's a rap album from 1997 what the fuck do you want so they're talking and the one guy goes man never

mind that shit never mind the pussy give me the money and the weed i was like i guess that's a philosophy you get distracted by that i was like yeah do people guys get distracted by that well boy do we yeah yeah if you get the money in the weed maybe then maybe and if dudes would just focus on the success trajectory of having something that's comfortable and a comfortable life where you're not living paycheck to paycheck if you can focus on that first i assure you you're gonna you're gonna be fine then still be nice to them right that's the other thing some guys don't they're like some guys are like i got a car an apartment a good job what's up where are they pointing at us sitting there though what i'm sitting on the couch with my door open just waiting for my cocks

out ladies what What the hell? This is what you want, right? Like, no, now you still have to attract them as well. If it's a full package, you have to do it. Got to show them which fork you know how to use. Hey, my electric bill's paid. Who wants some? You going to suck this or not?

Yeah, come on. Is there a condition in here? Because I paid for it. Some guys really think that. They do. That's all they need to do so oh please i oh my god so that's an insight insight for ladies and help for our guy friends out there it's both i got a friend that's just it's it's beyond man he and he has

no people who are motivated he has some some some guidelines and some bars that are set way too fucking high yeah for the face that he has. Oh, yeah. And the stability that he has. It's like, dude. Guys are nuts. Have some self-awareness. Nobody owes you anything. No, no, no.

We're nuts. We are. We are. Out of our minds. Yes. I know awful looking people who would see, you know, a girl who's a movie star and she'll be, she's fucking gross. Just.

Yeah. Is she? Tearing her down. Never give you the time. She would have a security person physically form a barrier in front of your disgusting ass. Milikunis is ugly? What are you talking about? Is that what you're saying, man?

Really? You don't like her face? Okay. All right. Sure. Yeah. What's wrong with you, man? I've seen your, you want to tell these these people i've seen who you've gone out with

at what point was that no no you're telling me it was between her and mila and you were like mila's face is a bit off yeah that one girl had a tail what are you doing you're but mila i wouldn't touch her at 10 yeah okay sure you wouldn't yeah you would you'd be thrilled and you'd come before you got your fucking pants off because it'd be the best thing you've ever had. You idiot. Or what you call tiny tits would make you lose your mind. Lose your shit.

So enjoy that. Okay. We're way off. Sorry about that. You know what? It's the Christmas spirit, Christmas season, holiday season. And on top of all of that, it's's our episode 200 so i think we get to have fun let's run around a little bit why not because it's 200 we this is for us damon and for you but

for us too so uh he's having an affair he's doing all this type of shit yeah so kind of spring of 1977 he goes down bruce goes down to visit his mother in Kentucky. Oh, boy. Only good's going to come from this. Yeah. Get back to your roots, though. Get back to your roots, and maybe his mom will tell him, hey, smack some sense into him a little bit. Or do you smoke the devil's lettuce?

Smoking the devil's lettuce, you're hanging out with impure women. Right. Woman. You have an impure woman on the side. Your beverage says proof on the side of it. Oh, no. Unbelievable. Worst of all, you weren't at church on Sunday.

I heard. No, the pastor called me down here and he said, where's Bruce? I said, I don't know. I raised you better than this, Bruce. Raised you better than this, Bruce. Then she beat him relentlessly, unmercifully with a frying pan. Farm equipment. Yeah.

This is an interesting thing here uh she in the course of their conversations when you talk you haven't seen your mom in a while you move away to another town you come back things you know you have to talk about a wide variety of subjects right how are the kids that's gonna happen for a while they're great how's barbara she's fine the house is good. My job's okay. You know, like the other people, not liking these coworkers, I'm sure, as we got that review. Outside of that, though, everything's great. Eventually, when you talk to your mom and you haven't talked to her for a while, the subject will get around to demons and demon-possessed people. Holy shit.

Obviously, right? Wow. How many conversations have you had with your mother where that didn't come up at one point? to demons and demon-possessed people. Holy shit. Obviously, right? How many conversations have you had with your mother where that didn't come up at one point? Sometimes I'm shocked where the conversation gets to, but we never get there. We usually just start there to get it out, because we know it's going to end up there. Hey, Ma, be aze above. Let's go.

Yeah, so we get like a back and forth going about that, and then once that's through, then she's like, how's the kids? And I'm like, good. Usually they're fine. Yeah. We're beating the shit out of the actually. One of them passed away about a month ago.

And I didn't mean to tell you about it, but the demon possessed people. Really? That was what I needed to get out of off my chest. Apparently, that's where they get along. That's that's the that's the honeypot that's what their big subject is to the point where she gives him a pamphlet i don't know where she got this pamphlet from think about who's printing a pamphlet like this right in the 70s in kentucky yeah this is either a insane crazy religious fundamentalist group or the cia or something

literally i'm not even kidding yeah so that's the type of shit they would do to try to stir something up just trying to infiltrate groups and like fundamentalist religious groups and also find out who will take this yeah well it was you they infiltrated them the same as the black panthers the same as the hippies the same as this that they were doing all that shit to people back then so um yeah i'm reading some stuff and getting into some getting into some old conspiracies we talked about it on crime and sports yeah i like a conspiracy that really doesn't matter that's the conspiracy i like also convincing helps you know i mean yeah well even if it's not convincing really i'm not open to believe it i'm open to

hear it okay for fun okay that's all it is i'm not but it's open to hear it for fun. That's all it is. But it's open to hear it for fun. This is fan fiction to you. Sometimes. But then you get into some shit where you're like, oh, like when you hear about like MK Ultra and you're like, oh, no, that's real. Wow. If a person came up to you and told you that was happening, you'd be like, what are you fucking wrong with you?

Shut up. But then it's real. So there's a lot of crazy shit that happened. And infiltration of groups is one of them is lot of crazy shit that happened and infiltration of groups was one of them was one of the things that was real so who knows but uh defeated enemies was the name of the pamphlet defeated enemies and it concerned demons and demon possessed people they're the enemies and this is how you defeat them oh through this pamphlet so she was like i'm sure you come across a lot of demons and demon possessed people.

You're near Detroit. So, yeah, the big city. So here you go. Take this pamphlet in case one jumps out at you. So, yeah, he gets into a an affair here, has an affair with a woman by the name. Her last name is Cross. That's all they identify her as is cross the whole time now that weekend i guess he took her down there for the demon pamphlet tour down in kentucky um so they're banging away down there and uh while in the middle of

coitus coitus while mid-bang mid-bang they're literally attached here there's thuds happening in the middle of this uh uh wow he suffers a psychotic episode during sex oh my god dude we've done a lot of episodes with a lot of 200 as a matter of fact with a lot of 200, as a matter of fact, with a lot of pretty out there people, right? I mean, Pocket Robin. There's been a few that are just like, wow. I've never heard of a psychotic episode during sex. That's usually like when you're at the most clear, most focused. That's what I was going to say.

Goal oriented. There's a thing that's happening. There's only one thing happening. Right. It's like at the end of the night, I play uh game it's a like a word game on my phone to try to clear my brain of you know murder that i was just working on all night before i go to bed so i spend 20 minutes like doing that and i focus on it so i don't think about other stuff sex is so much better than that for that god it's the you know what i mean you focus and it's so much better

nothing matters literally the house could catch on fire i'm gonna finish before i put this out that's what i mean people will people will be having heart attacks and try make sure let me just finish before i call it i mean the old robert schimmel joke is like right yeah can i finish before i die is what yeah can i fucking come before I call 911? Right. Who's going to come first? But men will do that. Be like, I'm probably having a heart attack, but I'm going to finish first and then figure it out. So to have a psychotic episode, not a physically, you know, is mind-blowing.

All behind the ears. Between the ears. That's mind-blowing. I don't know if he was, like, losing his fucking heart on and had to fake a psychotic episode to get out of it that could do it he's not like was that a car horn but not a psychotic episode instead he's like is the phone ringing yeah he's like oh someone's possessed and i have a pamphlet she's like whoa yeah oh my how much whiskey was he drinking though because it could be a thing whiskey weed and he's not used to drinking or smoking weed so i'm not used to fucking somebody that's not his wife i don't know yeah i never heard anybody uh lose an erection

because it's not their wife i was gonna say i've never heard anybody a weed weed only helps yeah and b that's a that's that's to use the carmen common parlance that That is some strange, Jimmy. Usually that's going to be. Yeah, that is visual Viagra. He was hard in the car when he pulled up. He was like. I cannot wait. That's a different.

There's a horse of a different feather, as they call it, as it's said. So anyway, that's what's happening she they're having in the middle of banging mid-bang uh and he suffers a psychotic episode saying that he jumped off of her and said you're a devil started saying that she's a devil and a demon oh my while he was banging her which she's being an angel at that moment it's an actual angel you should see a halo how goodly of her her halo is about three feet below her head as a matter of fact yeah stay in there you're a fucking you're a dildo yeah with two kids and your crazy mother with a walk around showing her a religious pamphlet about demons and you're gonna say she's the devil and get off of her no she should have turned around and just said you're gonna say she's the devil and get off of her no she

should have turned around and just said you're the one that's married you idiot yeah you're married dummy so who's the devil now and then he would have cried so he said that she's a devil and he ran out of the room okay he literally left her there yeah just pulled out and get to alter the devil and left okay what an odd experience for a woman. Right. Ladies, have you ever had that one happen to you? You always hear women give these crazy sexual stories about this and that. Has a guy ever jumped off of you mid-sex, not coming or anything, and said,

You're a demon, and then ran out of the room? There's going to be two or three that say yes. Just because men are that bad. Normally, I say don't tweet at us. I that say yes if that's because they're that bad yeah normally i say don't tweet at us i want to know if that's happened if this specific thing has happened to you please let us know because that is crazy and then dm us because i want to hear the story yeah if you're comfortable obviously we're not trying to get weird sexual stories we want to hear how crazy he is not about your sexual stuff what happened to you that's crazy so he runs out of the room he apparently um like she had to go find him oh boy she had to like get dressed and go

wander outside and find him yeah so she eventually tracks him down oh my god i hope he put his dick away first put some pants on ran out he's still rock hard just reading a pamphlet demons make me fucking horny how do i get rid of this demons make me horny yeah god so when she found him he was open to talking but he insisted that they go back to the room and pray first before they talk so no more fucking let's take this pamphlet we We'll go back to the room. We'll pray for a while. And she's like, okay, sure. How is this not a turn off to how can I get away from this lunate? Okay, great. Yo, 500 miles from home.

Great. This is going to be wonderful. So he then. Oh, my goodness. Jesus. This is when people get to this part where they see signs from god and things that have no sign from god it's when i'm start to really yeah kind of swinging for the fences yeah he said the next day the the the choke on his truck was clogged okay the carburetor

the choke was clogged and he took it just clocked you know that happens an old truck let me have like an old truck spray some starting fluid in there yeah it happens so he instead though said that it was a sign of from god okay that he should stay with his wife oh with your wife it's a very subtle sign yeah if you're god right and you can make anything you can make your make your carburetor clog up. I mean, that's a pretty, he's not saying not only does God have control over all the beings that he's created, quote unquote, or whatever the fuck, but on top of that, he's got like machine power, he's changing channels. He's mechanically inclined too for a carburetor that sure in the fuck didn't exist when he was alive.

He knows how it works. He knows how to clog it up. He's pretty good at this. a bad deal yeah so to take that and go that's a personal message from god he had to have stared at that carburetor and gone what does this mean that's what i mean looking for a sign in it and a sign from god and thinking that's a way that god's communicating with him like needed him to pull over and you know think about it for a minute well now this means i'm stuck and i have to stay where would i stay stay with my wife the fuel needs to flow it flows like love in a marriage and it's it's i'm being i'm being clogged yeah and

i'm just being all just held up tight right now my love isn't being allowed inside the the injectors creates a fire like passion like yeah the fuel of marriage is love see and that pushes the truck down the road it's clogged yeah now if the truck ain't getting no love yeah it's gonna stall and that goes for pussy as well that's how he would say it because that's what that means this bitch has got to get out of my truck that's what he would call women at that yeah he's not a good guy probably so anyway he's um the clogged choke is a song from aside from god and then he said oh my god he got back in the truck to figure out what to do, turn the radio on. And every song that came on, like pop songs, too, not the gospel channel, pop music, all of the lyrics were also messages from God to tell him things.

Or every song on the radio is about love. Yeah, but it was God. on the radio is about love yeah but but it was god yeah god god put only put that song out you know four years ago so four years from then he would hear it at that moment when it's god plays chess it's not checkers jimmy this is chess it's a long it's a long game god damn yeah it's playing 18 moves ahead he writes aqua long yeah so then when you need it three years later, you're going to hear it and go, yes, that means I should stay with my wife. God damn it. What the fuck? Oh, boy.

I don't even know. I'm losing it with this guy. So he gets back home and he says he's going to stay with his wife. Yep. It's clear. He's done. He's doing it. So he gets home.

He stays home one night, sleeps when he gets back from Kentucky. He works a full day at the Ford plant like he normally does. Seems to be back to his. I don't know what it was. Seems to have like a three day lost his goddamn mind. Came home, sends side chick, and he's ready to focus again. I feel like he just needed a quick quick cleanse a quick he's like one of these old timey guys who needed to like go blow off steam

in like a whorehouse like they use quote unquote for a weekend right guys used to just do that back in the day well you gotta throw it away to know what's good you know what i mean that's the thing you gotta you gotta you gotta just sacrifice the whole thing and and let it go to know what you had my grandmother they do yeah italian grandma said that that is how my grandfather got the approval from her family to marry her and and everything and was my uncle tino took her out took my grandfather out to hang out him and his brothers and you know a bunch of guineas running around the bronx in 1949 or some shit so my grandmother's telling me this story about three years ago and she goes so you know he took martino took takes him out with you know this one and that one and they take him to get to know you

know so so everybody they're gonna be you know he's gonna propose he asked if he could propose so they're gonna make sure he's okay so no that's nice you know it's a real community thing the italian thing goes so they go out and you know they do well what the guys do they go to the bars you know they drink they go i play some cards place you know they go to the uh to the whorehouse hold on excuse me grandma back that up yeah mother whorehouse like what are you stupid she tells me like you don't know what a whorehouse mother whorehouse what the girl i say i know what it is grandma thank you her her tell those yeah mother whorehouse so it's like yeah i figured you'd say that more gently but i guess not 90 year old woman mother

whore house so i just thought it was funny so then she says so my grandfather my my brother comes and she he says to me that's a good man you have there you should marry him yeah we take her he didn't he didn't even he didn't even go with any of the whores oh that's so nice he said i can't i love i love my gloria you know that's so sweet me so they all went in and they did what they you know when they came out he was still there he never did the thing so then you know i could marry him i was like oh thank you great that's a beautiful italian love story grandma that's that is lovely he did not fuck the horse so it's fine and so he now have the horse and so they say you should marry I said yeah I should you know wow okay

you know have you ever heard your grandparents say how they met and how they got together was it like that probably not this was it was very lazy it was she was the only one in high school that liked me. It that, or, you know, we met at a dance or we did this. Not, yeah, he took her to the whorehouse and, you know, we passed the skank test or whatever he was calling it. And that's not our words. That's, you know, a 93 year old Italian woman saying that's the only reason why I'm saying

it. So, uh, obviously I'd go with brothel. It's more respectful to everyone. I sure do. I sure do. sure do sure do i am sure sure i'm partial to the whorehouse well it's because it's old westy yeah but it fucking serves a it really tells you what goes down rightfully yeah it's not the favorite word of the ladies it's not necessarily a house unless they were like very nice no old west that's what they they were proud of that. We've talked about it in Deadwood.

Because in the Old West, that was considered an honorable profession. It was accountant, barman, whore. These were all solid. And they were like, that's what I am, goddammit. They were proud of it. She went to the sheriff and got the license for it. Don't shame me. I provide a goddamn service and I know what I'm doing.

Yeah, those ladies back then. But then, obviously, it's gotten a little bit more of a stigma, which, I don't know. To each their own. Yeah. Do what you want to do. Good for you. So, anyway, this guy, Ramsey, here, he, oh, my God. So, he's getting, finding messages from God and popular song lyrics. Oh, my God.

So he's finding messages from God in popular song lyrics. He's, you know, and minor mechanical problems on an old pickup truck, which seems pretty common. Yeah. So full day of work and everything like that. He calls his mother in Kentucky after this full day of work. And he is, like, manic. Like, he is exuberant, crazy, talking about his return to god yeah and he's triumphant returning to god and he's so excited like he's acting like he's gonna go somewhere and you know play racquetball with god and he's just jacked about it because they're friends again but like he's

just so psyched about his return to god and his mother's like great sure yeah you know good for you i'm glad the pamphlet helped yeah glad that was weird enough for you so uh now the day this happens here 1977 uh he's home he comes home after a full day's work he's excited to talk to his mom gets home and his kids are home and his wife is home barbara she's there as well and they have an argument that as you know people do people married couples have arguments i understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that i killed my wife hi my name is zach stewart pontier i'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1

and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Mor follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy.

The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts here um now wow and the kids are like you know eight and twelve so they're small little kids they're there too boy and girl so at this point they're arguing and one of the ramsey uh children uh later will say that um barbara came into the child's room crying which i mean i get that you're trying to

get away from the husband but when you take that to the kid you're ruining that kid you're really involving them in this it's it's um boy that's painful when you're a kid and you're getting involved in parents' stuff. And you're not necessarily getting involved. You're being brought into it on purpose. You're being brought in and the people, they're telling you their side and shit. You ever have that going on? You're like, whoa, this is really. That's not good at all.

No, it's not good at all. But I think at this point, this guy's losing his mind with this religious fervor. And I almost think the woman is, I almost think Barbara's trying to get away from him and would like, let me just hang out with the kids here and maybe he'll leave me alone type of thing. Yeah. Almost using them as a shield. Or at the other hand, maybe she is using herself as a shield.

So we'll stay away from the kids. I don't know her motivation here, but either one of those seems just as likely. Sure. 50-50, depending on what her state of mind is. So they argue. I guess he enters the room, the child's room, where Barbara had walked into. Bruce comes in, and he just yells at her. He says, walk.

That's what he says, which is real angry. Not singing a Pantera song. No. Just insultingly yelling at her what to do what to do yeah nothing not doesn't even bring up a flower or rhyme about it or anything this is not romantic have you ever you've said that to your kids before just looking dead in the eye pointed walk walk because i'm in charge of them right yeah you can't do that yeah i have dominion over you based on size alone yeah you came from my dick and i pay for everything walk that's it like that's a different thing different to another human being who you didn't

create you can't yell at like that and then when i pass a certain age you shouldn't talk to your kids like that either only if they're being dicks so the uh barbara leaves the room, and she kind of walks out of the room acting like she's cooperating, and then she makes a beeline for the bathroom, runs in the bathroom, locks the door. Okay. Okay. This whole game. Yeah. Well, whatever's going on, if he's acting all crazy, maybe that's a good thing.

This is ugly. Try to defuse it. Okay. So he knocks on the door. Hey, come out. Obviously, you know I'm out here i just i just ordered you from another room knocking knocking she won't ask she said just leave me alone just why don't you just give give me a minute let's just let this whole thing blow over

and cool off i feel like he gets these like these bursts of fervor and you have to like let him calm and then he kind of chills like the way he did with that cross lady right ah you're a demon and ran away and she's like hey let's calm down and she's he you know he wants to pray and then everything's fine again and you know i think that's what she's thinking so this probably isn't a brand new thing this might happen once in a while this is for this familiar for her she knows yeah she knows what to do here except this time uh bruce decides he's not taking it anymore, and he starts trying to break down the bathroom door and eventually succeeds in busting the

door down. Oh, my God. So he breaks the door down, and so he comes into the bathroom, and his kids are watching this, by the way. His kids have followed behind to see what's going on because this is frightening for them and it's a small place. So, wow. Basically, he starts screaming that she's a demon and she's possessed. You're possessed.

You're a demon. All of this type of shit, right? Yelling at her and telling the kids that she's a demon. of shit right yelling at her and and telling the kids that she's a demon um apparently he starts he starts choking her and and hitting her in the head every once in a while with his hands at this point hitting her in the head and choking her and screaming go away demon go die die demon get out of there demon go demon screaming about demons while he's doing it yeah okay so and he's hitting her and all this type of shit it's fucking crazy kids are screaming kids are screaming he chokes her to the ground but doesn't kill her she's still conscious and everything like that so he pulls

a knife out he pulls a pretty good size kitchen knife out, and he stabs her 32 times in front of his children. Oh, my. 32 times in the face, chest, and neck. Oh, they are fucked up. Just hacking away the whole time, screaming, die, demon, die. Oh, my God. And things of that. Die, demon, die.

Yeah. Kill the demon. I'm killing the die. Demon, get out of there. Demon. Everything demon. Demon be gone. I mean, screaming about everything, probably from the pamphlet. Yeah. demon die kill the demon i'm killing the die demon get out of there demon everything demon be gone i mean screaming about everything probably from the pamphlet yeah i don't know if the pamphlet said to stab somebody 32 times but i'm sure it said to you know rid you gotta verbally

you know cast out the demon and you gotta vent the body to get the demons out yeah um stabs her 32 times that's a lot. All over the place. Yeah, and this is just everywhere. Her whole front of her body, basically. Overkill. I mean, it didn't take that much to kill her. So at the time of this, he then turns to his kids. Oh, no.

And he tells them that, well, Mom, he's possessed by a demon. And what happened is I had to cut the demon out of her. Yeah. Now that the demon's out of her, we need to pray over her. All three of us. If we all get down and pray on top of her body. Come to the body. And pray over her.

She'll come back to life. Oh, for Christ's sake. Because now the demon's gone. Oh, boy. Now there's no more demon. Yeah. So. But I'm 12, dad, and I have a health class come on that ain't gonna work um yeah uh he then turned to his kid his nine-year-old son hugged him said come on buddy let's bring mommy back to life okay the demon's gone yeah like this is great now the demons go like he was like we did it kids now

let's bring her back yeah literally hugging him like they just did something special like that's the that's our tree this year we're gonna cut it down i don't know what's so brings the kids over imagine the amount of blood that's in this room and and the mom looks terrible oh yeah this is clearly the worst they've ever seen 32 stab wounds and he's gonna set them down next to her and and 32 stab wounds his blood is just i mean everywhere puddles pools and so over the walls it's all over everything he's gonna bring the kids in there kneel down in your mother's blood kid and let's pray over her that way she'll come back to life all right so um he does it obviously she doesn't come back to life because he stabbed her 32

fucking times so at that point he starts to realize that she's not coming back he said he expected her to come back to life pop right up he's like i thought she's just gonna pop right up but we prayed over and i like i did my part yeah you know i've been praying and nothing happened oh boy um so he starts to realize it so now he gets you know apoplectic about the whole thing now he's now he's like oh no this is terrible so he and his god damn it he made his nine-year-old son he makes him help bring barbara's body into the bed they take it they take her body and they place it in bruce and barbara's bed and then he crawls up next to her and goes to sleep oh goes to sleep what how do you sleep he crawled up next to the woman he stabbed the shit out of while his kids are wandering around awake

and he's like not not kids it's nap time daddy needs a nap wow what how do you do that we've had dismounts where we're like dude yeah like a couple weeks ago the guy you know the bathroom of his business and it's like hey you know come on you're caught there you're gonna be the first suspect there buddy like it's he was going for it's so obvious that it you know it can't be me couldn't be me yeah whereas this is like well shit i don't understand the why you've got too uh many witnesses you've got not too many too many uh too many yeah and then also it's your fucking wife and you've moved it on there's's so much evidence. Yeah. Not to mention your kids away with this.

No. And your kids, you're going to, you're not thinking about, Oh, I should prop my kids probably need, you're going to need somebody to talk to him. Yeah.

I should probably talk to them about this. He was like, taking a nap now. Imagine how fucking what those kids are thinking. Well, I mean, cause they don't know if you're nine, you don't know what the hell's going on.

And if your dad says your dad, who's your dad and you think knows things if he says mommy's coming back to life you probably thought i guess mommy's coming back to life right i don't know that i didn't think that's how it worked but i don't know i haven't seen that many movies how the fuck do i know i'm nine i'm nine i don't know shit i still think a giant bunny brings me candy right which it does children so there you go anyway um he places her in the bed crawls next to her falls asleep yeah um falls asleep for a while how long too well we're not sure the exact amount of time but we know how he woke up he's awakened to state troopers knocking on his door okay that's a problem state police officers banging on his door and identifying on michigan state police yeah yeah which is that'll wake you up oh hey i'm up now you're whoa what's up with

that apparently the kids scared shitless and probably just traumatized as all hell had wandered out of the house and went over to a neighbor's house just to i don't even know they didn't even know what they were doing they just ended up like in a neighbor's yard a neighbor came out and said hey guys you're right because they're small well and then they have blood all over them and there's also nobody to tell them not to that's the other thing dad sleeping next to mom's corpse and uh you know also more most of the time nine-year-old boys aren't covered in blood yeah usually not spatter anyway maybe a cut on their knee or their elbow, but it's not spatter on the face and kneeling in a pool of it.

I have to think there's a part of a child's mind that saw that and knows that they don't want to be in that house either. So they're going to get the fuck out. You just saw dad commit atrocious violence. You have to think, whoa, what if dad? And it's in a way, too, where that wasn't how dad normally acts yeah what if he acts like that with me i mean yeah that's just survival even at nine some people have that and if i'm nine and i just believe what my dad says now there's a demon loose in the house i gotta get the fuck out that's the other thing what if it did get out it's gonna

be in me next yeah and the other thing is too this guy i know it's you know this he's gone to this extreme here but his kids are around him all the time they know if he's a little right you know he's a little they can gauge the the seriousness of this situation if your dad's nuts you know if your parents are nuts you know if you need to get away from situations and you know you know that as a kid i mean it's yeah we have a you know a little antenna for abuse like that or every kid has it where you're like hey this is uncomfortable for me so i don't know if the kids knew like okay dad's finally lost it or what but they went next door state police officers knocking on the door identifying themselves he says at this point or it's cleared at this point that he uh looks over his wife is dead

yeah absolutely i mean she's been dead for a couple hours now he's been sleeping next to her she's cold and she's blue she ain't coming back you know uh one of those deals uh so he's like shit that didn't work i thought that was supposed to work like the fucking pamphlet said damn it that demon's deep well only one thing i can do now oh boy you know well obviously you go open the door and turn yourself in in a minute. Or you can grab the same knife and plunge it into your chest repeatedly. Wow. Which is what he chooses to do.

That's commitment. He takes a same knife he murdered his wife with and just repeatedly plunges it into his chest. Gets about four pretty good stab wounds in his chest before he kind of falls over and passes out yeah and that's how the state police find him puddle of blood knife in his hand dead wife on the bed quite the scene to walk into unbelievable and i don't know if you if anybody's ever heard this but it's very hard to put a knife through your chest plate it's easier for someone else to do it but for you to get the force to put a knife to you through your it's your it's meant to protect your heart that's why your sternum and your chest all

that's there so it doesn't want things to go through it it's pretty hard to get through you really got to have some force to get through that cartilage almost gotta run it all yeah it's yeah if you're gonna do it yourself but he he got pretty good stab wounds on himself uh it's pretty interesting so he does that stabs himself in the chest and then got back into the got back into bed and so he could pass out in bed because he will later say if he died he figured that if he was next to his wife then they would go together okay that's how that works yeah you gotta physically huddle up and then you're yeah she would meet her spirit like in the attic probably or i don't know up on the roof maybe yeah she's up fixing the tv antenna she's gonna pop up it's like a kobe to shack ollie oop that's what it is she's waiting she's like you're gonna

oop i'm getting too close to the rim bro you gotta throw it up you're at the three-point line throw it man i'm ready so yeah he says that i'm not returning to life shit uh what am i gonna do here that's where the police find him in the position of in the bed yeah bleeding out bleeding out uh there he's taken to the hospital and he made at the hospital he made his family and friends came and he made statements to the effect that he screwed up his life screwed up everything and quote that his wife wasn't supposed to die she wasn't supposed to die yeah i read the i read that pamphlet from front to back i missed the skip to step yeah imagine if the internet was around you could have got that guy to do anything yeah this is a

fucking pamphlet yeah i mean that could be shittily printed. Oh, boy. You need money to print a decent pamphlet or someone knows that you have no backing. He'd fall for everything. Oh, anybody can put together a slick-looking website that you can fool people or slick-looking any social media presence, anything like that. How many times would he pay his IRS bill that didn't need to be paid? He'd pay that.

All the Nigerian princes would be sitting pretty yeah he would be doing terribly he'd have so many extended warranties he's gonna say all the extended and chris wallace would know him by or i'm sorry chris wallace chris fucking oh chris yeah chris hansen chris hansen chris wallace. Chris Hansen would know him by a first name. He would just have been trolled into like, you know. Chris Wallace would do a show interviewing him about how many times he's seen Chris Hansen. That's what I mean. And he didn't even know what he was doing.

He just fooled into meeting what he thought was kids in need or something. Fuck kids. I'm not here for that. Yeah. I don't want to fuck kids. That's awful. Wow. I'm here for the extended warranty.

here for that yeah i don't want to fuck kids that's awful wow i'm here for the extended warranty i'm here to get the paperwork for my dishwasher what's up with that that's what i'm here for my windshield has chips in it that's chips you know they say they'll replace it for free and give me a hundred dollars here i am for free and give me a hundred dollars here i am that's just a kid what up with that so um wow he's taken to the hospital like i said hospital psychiatrists not surprisingly diagnose him as acutely psychotic upon admission screaming my wife wasn't supposed to die the demons were supposed to come out yeah i tried to stab myself in the chest just to err on the side of safety. Let's hang on to him for a couple of days and do a little once over before we decide his fucking mental acuity here. So he's arrested at that point, obviously.

And while he's going to the hospital, you're still you'll be in the hospital. You're still under arrest. Oh, yeah. You're not going anywhere. Yeah. He he the psychiatrist evaluates him two days later, diagnoses him as acute psychosis, having that, and also acute paranoid schizophrenia as well.

Losing his shit, in other words, pretty much. The report also indicated that his mental status was, quote, religious paranoid ideation and severe impairment of reality orientation and his actions following his paranoid delusions. Those are not it's not a sentence you want a psychiatrist to say about you. No, probably any of that. Really? You could take any of that. That's also a good indicator of how if you're not capable of of of understanding something, it's religion is very much like drugs too much of

it too soon or too fast or too consistently it can really fuck you up yeah oh i agree and that's what happened i agree it's like he ate a shit acid sex drugs and religion can can hit a young brain wrong yeah you know what i mean and i'm not saying don't take your kids to church i'm not saying that at all it's slow i'm just saying that some some kids some people's brains aren't ready for that yet sometimes and that's all so sometimes who knows he had a sheet of jesus he had a little too much a little too much for him and that's what happens it's moderation is great so they said the evaluation concerning the influence of his religious beliefs and delusions is consistent with further testimony that comes up here establishing that here's some

facts that they've established once they get him in here about 10 weeks before the stabbing incident is when his mother gave him the religious pamphlet which she described as containing case histories of casting out demons so it was like a timeline of like oh my this is how we cast out that demon yeah and i bet stabbing was involved some way in 1872 you have to open a hole so the demons can leak on out otherwise they're trapped in there can't get out the mouth of the butthole right demons don't fly out the butthole jesus like you don't even read they're too big they're too big to get out your butthole, stupid. What are they going to do about the shoulders?

Some people are just ignorant, uneducated people. Come on, now. Six inches in the chest. You'd need a gaping wound is what I'm saying. Your butthole is going to be too small. Come on, think before you say things. Shoulders and wings don't fit. Oh, man, the big wings.

Big as Spock's coming off him. He's going to tear your butthole out. You'll never get out of there. So also, approximately 10 weeks before the stabbing incident, while Ramsey here, they say, while engaging with sexual intercourse with a woman other than his wife, became convinced that the woman was a devil or a demon, became frightened, quit the act of intercourse,

and believing the event to be a sign from God to stop cheating on his wife, prayed together with the woman was a devil or a demon became frightened quit the act of intercourse and believing the event to be a sign from god to stop cheating on his wife prayed together with the woman and then um yeah he the day before the murder was the clogged choke incident and then getting in his car and hearing you know every rose needs a wife to stay with and she's a demon so be careful about that if you stab her they'll come out and then on the loop just every song named after a girl that's all it is yeah amanda barbara sue barbara sue peggy sue barbara ann what was that family guy they had that once they had yeah we name off so he goes what is it like a like a like a this is a song named after a girl yeah uh stewie like a hundred like yeah and he named five name 20 more name 50 more amanda sarah yes what that one

billy jean yeah he doesn't really five then he hits them and he goes, name ten more. Yeah, yeah. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Name 20 more. Shit. Mandy, Amanda, this one. It's every girl's name has a song. And credit Seth. He commits to a joke and he finds every song ever and rattles them off. I don't mind. Good for you, Seth. I don't mind the beat the joke into the ground thing. It's like, why not?

Where else are you going for the next 30 seconds? Right. And again, they're going to do it. Yes yes it's another 30 seconds and you're watching it anyway so relax let yourself like it and then stewie just goes oh i guess you're right so good so he's charged not surprisingly uh charged with first degree murder and before the trial though he files his notice of intention to assert a defense of insanity oh which is not again not surprising and uh before the trial he the ramsey trial that uh moved that the statute quote uh providing a

defendant who asserts a defense of insanity may be found guilty but mentally ill he says should be declared unconstitutional so they're filing a thing to you can be found guilty not guilty not guilty by reason of insanity guilty but mentally ill those are the options so he's trying to they're trying to establish beforehand that one of the options that the legislation has laid out that's the state law is not constitutional okay which if i'm found that then legislation has laid out, that's the state law, is not constitutional. Okay. You're saying if I'm found that, then I'm clearly innocent because that's unconstitutional.

Exactly. So they're laying a groundwork for, basically that's the one they're going for, and they're laying the groundwork to be able to appeal that as not a thing, and that's how that works. So kind of legalese bullshit. Sure. So, yeah.

One other thing that happens, bullshit sure so uh yeah one other thing that happens they uh he says that they ask that the jury not be instructed on that verdict they ask that that not be included oh and uh the judge says no so then ramsey files a waiver of his right to a jury trial so it's just a bench trial in front of the judge just the judge just the judge which I don't think that's smart. That's dangerous. If you're going for this type of thing, if you're going to say like, I'm crazy and demons and all that, you have a better chance of convincing regular people. You have a better chance of having 12 people that are like you than one judge that is absolutely not going to be like you. Yeah, well, that's the thing.

Those 12 people also don't see a million murder cases and things like that so to them this is all some big exciting thing whereas the judge is like you're just a killer idiot just like the last killer idiot i had last week your demons are the same as he needed crack money same shit get the fuck out of my court you know what i mean so i don't think that's wise their judges are a lot more cynical and jaded than a regular person going in a jury pool, especially in a murder trial. I feel like people feel forced into juries if it's like you're going for some kind of theft or something. Nobody wants to sit there for that.

You don't want to judge people for shit like that. But if it's murder, people are like, well, this is important. I need to do my civic duty. Put this person. And a judge will sit and watch and listen to all the evidence and he right now has he or she right now has an opinion of the law and based on fucking hundreds of years of law they're scoring it as they go and he can hammer it out of his mouth right then whereas these 12 are going to go sit in a room for three four literally talk

about it yeah literally discuss what what our statement's going to be yeah no judge knows exactly what while he's here and yeah no a judge knows exactly what while he's here and stuff well that's bullshit not believing that okay that's bullshit it's two to one okay ten to two so uh now his lawyer ramsey's lawyer if he's charged with first degree murder his lawyer's name is uh lock is his last name what the hell is his first name? It's here somewhere. I'll find it. But, uh, lock is his first name. Last name. L U L a U C K. And he figured that, uh,

a jury would be disturbed enough by the details of the killing to find Ramsey guilty, but mentally ill rather than not guilty by reason of insanity. He said, basically, yeah, the jury's going to hear about him stabbing his wife 32 times in front of his kids, then making his kids kneel down in the blood. And they're not going to give a fuck about how crazy he is. They're going to want to put the word guilty on him somewhere.

And that's the easy one, too. That's like that's the, you know, to say guilty, but mentally ill takes everything off the jury. Yeah, we don't think he's right in the head. We also think he's guilty. So it's everybody gets what they want, basically. It's an easy one it's a it's it's that is the ultimate like in this case that's the ultimate like act of omission for a jury it's like well i'm gonna back off and just i could slam dunk this little of both and have nothing you could make a decision is he full of shit or is he crazy which one pick which one he is because obviously it's one of the

two but they have this weird one there. He says, if found guilty but mentally ill, Ramsey would be sentenced to prison where he would be entitled to receive psychiatric treatment. If found not guilty by reason of insanity, he would be sent to a state center for forensic psychiatry. Ah, there you go. And then at the end of 60 days, they evaluate him. And if he's not mentally ill, he'd be released. That's the difference. If you're not guilty by reason of insanity, they lock you up till you're not dangerous anymore, which could be 10 years, two months.

There's an evaluation process. Somewhere in between there. Doesn't know. Yeah. Whereas guilty but mentally ill means you go to prison and you can go see a shrink once a month. That's what that means. So it's basically nothing. Right. It just makes the jury feel better about giving a guilty verdict. month. That's what that means. So it's basically nothing. It just makes the jury feel better about giving a guilty verdict.

It's all it is. It's a way to cut down on not guilty by insanity. You're just awarding a prisoner a head doctor. That's all it is. And they don't even get that, as we'll talk about. It doesn't really happen that much. So yeah, he repeatedly attacked the guilty but mentally ill verdict as unconstitutional and that's become his tactic and uh apparently doctors admitted that those imprisoned under

the verdict don't receive adequate psychiatric treatment they say they just put that there as a red flag to the prison oh that's basically how they flag somebody so the prison knows up keep an eye on that crazy fuck right that's the way they look at it not that they're crazy but yeah but yeah keep an eye on them that's a person we can just give some pills and throw in a corner and not worry about and shit like that so um which again not really treating anything at that point so according to defense testimony ramsey exhibited um an unusual elation here this day on fe 3rd, 1977, prior to the time he killed his wife.

During that day, he consumed whiskey, beer, and weed. That's the other thing. So he had this fervent religiosity, and then it wasn't there, and he's banging women, and then he shouldn't be doing it, so he's praying about it, but then he sees signs from God, but then he also wants be doing it so he's praying about it but then he sees signs from god but then he also wants to smoke weed and drink whiskey which he's not supposed to do in his in his moral system either yeah so i don't know what he's doing here so anyway in the late

afternoon he called his mother in kentucky told her he had returned to god and felt wonderful he felt like he just had him a just a beautiful shot of speed up his butthole, feeling good. Ramsey's mother was a Southern Baptist, a real hill person Southern Baptist. She originally had, I guess, years earlier that year, had given him two books on witchcraft and the occult. Oh, my God. earlier that year had given him two books on witchcraft and the occult oh my god and he had he had given he had read them and then they were talking about it on his visit and that's when she was like now you need this pamphlet too mom now that you know what exists this is how you get rid of it right so just why why too much too much that's deep so yeah the ramsey children here both indicated their father's conversations

were incomprehensible that night he would say shit they didn't understand things that were non-sequiturs things that didn't have anything to do with what they were talking about uh the kids were very confused they were like what's wrong with dad but if he's drunk and stoned and he hasn't been smoking weed and drinking whiskey for that long, he's not going to make a lot of sense. It's the guy that can't really handle it yet. Yeah. If you don't have a big whiskey tolerance and you start drinking whiskey, that's where you start with your booze.

That's wild. You're not going to be able to do much. And if you don't smoke weed that much and you start smoking weed and you mix it with whiskey, you're not going to be able to do shit but fall asleep. It's going to be shocking that you got whiskey down your throat and enough to get you drunk if you don't drink it a lot well that's exactly yeah there you go too because it's it's it burns that's not a good yeah that's not really a good drinking drink you gotta mix that

yeah so sometime after nine is when he demanded that his wife leave the bedroom where she'd gone to be alone and so he said ordered her out she got up locked herself in the bathroom when he broke the door in and began choking her and hitting her at first he kept saying love me over and over again like we're a god thing love me and then that's when he was like i gotta get the demon out because she was you know trying not to be choked to death i'm not loving him so that's not loving him that that's the demon fighting back. So if you stab her, the demon will float out, and then she'll be fine.

That's what he's positing, anyway. He testifies. Oh, boy. You have to if you're him. I guess so. If you're saying, I'm crazy, you can't just sit there with your hands folded. You have to go up there and tell them

what the fuck's wrong with you right away. So he told the court. This is a room full of adults in broad daylight. It says in it two in the morning, everybody with a bunch of booze in them or anything. With the bar lights just coming up and telling them to go home. People putting, bartender putting stools up on the bar. It's not that. It is noon.

People have just eaten lunch. People are picking turkey out of their teeth right now so he said that when he choked her he saw her eyes grow cloudy and her tongue come out of her mouth yeah because you know a woman dying that means yeah that means you're cutting off her oxygen but he said he became convinced that this was actually the devil coming out of her so him choking her and that happened he said it's working that's called life is coming out of her man yeah he mistaken he mistook demons for life so he said it's working it's working let me do now i have to do more you know the devil's trying to hang on here

that's why she's not dead so let me get a knife and i'll stab the devil out of her and then she'll be good so he said her tongue came out of her mouth he became convinced this was the devil coming out his daughter at some point called for help uh called somebody called one of the neighbors for help like shit's going on that we just can't place into. As kids, we don't know where to put it. This isn't the realm of normal in this house. Yeah, shit's weird here. Weirder than usual.

So she called for help. Ramsey then left her still alive and gasping on the floor from the choking. That's when he got the knife and stabbed her a whole bunch. And then grabbed his son and alongside him made her pray over made him pray over the body the boy said uh in court that because they had to testify the kids which your mother's dead now this jesus christ the boy said that he heard his father say something like quote she died for her sin son which was not she didn't do anything she just was alive and was married to your crazy ass so at that point and that's when he placed so the son said that he helped place the wife's bed body in bed under the covers he

got in under the covers next to her jesus christ he said that um wow he literally said that he thought she would wake up devil free in the morning like if we both went to bed and then like the alarm would go up and she'd get up and go what a night i had wow i'll tell you you know you aren't supposed to have mexican or like indian before you go to bed or like italian a sauce and that sort of thing but man when you have a demon in you yeah that just knocks it right out of you. Boy, do I have heartburn. It's an agita. I got agita right here.

It's just a sip of her coffee and it all comes out of her chest. Sometimes it's like curry. You feel like you're not supposed to have that before you go to bed. But man, I'll tell you what, when you have a demon in you before sleep and you get it stabbed out of you,

it is just, whew, you want coffee? I'm going to go make a pot. Like that's what he said was gonna happen what he said so uh i don't even know what to say about that so only when uh he heard the state police outside the door he said oh i just killed my wife yeah that's what happened wow cops were snapping to reality for him oh shit that's when he started plunging the knife into his chest on his own now obviously there's going to be some psychological testimony here. Clearly, this isn't going to go without a doctor testifying.

No layman's going to talk about this. Expert testimony was received from three psychiatrists. The defense called Dr. Emmanuel Taney, who testified that Ramsey was acutely psychotic and legally insane at the time of the stabbing. He's definitely insane. Legally is not my... I don't care. I don't know. He's fucking...

Yeah. A normal person doesn't do that. As I've said before, a little fucking bonjour there. No, that's not... No. Especially with the kids there, screaming, die, demon, die.

If it's an act, it's a pretty good act to put on normally people don't do the act during the murder you act later yeah you know like the murder like that is usually spur of the moment uh in the heat of the moment uh crazed moment that you didn't expect and that's why this is happening yeah then later on you're like she had the devil in her right you know this is a man who's chose this path he's telling the kids like okay that's part of it now come pray and she'll come back to life like i don't know if he believed that or not so the people also call called uh dr irving edgar and dr philip margolis that's the state calling these people dr edgar testified on direct examination

that ramsey knew right from wrong and was not psychotic at the time he attacked his wife it's hard to say on cross-examination however he did testify Dr. Rector that in view of the entire incident Ramsey was probably psychotic following the choking of his wife yeah for him to go oh good the devil's coming out it's working better go get a knife and finish it off yeah it's like there's at that point he was probably psychotic and you know what i'm not a psychiatrist but i'm gonna agree with him okay what do you think yeah i think it's a little crazy what he was doing there uh he said that the stabbing was quote bizarre behavior and probably psychotic die demon die while you stab with your kids watching i'd call that psychotic it's unbelievable it's something yeah not fucking right i'll tell you that so um yeah then the people uh um wow uh he said that uh dr margolis

testified that he was not uh that he was either um um not was he legally and neither legally insane nor mentally ill at the time of the incident that's the other one so we have dueling psychiatrists which is what they all you can get 10 experts and five are going to say one thing because it's a subjective that's why it works so unless someone is you know there's very few people that everyone agrees on the diagnosis even jeffrey dahmer there was differing opinions on all that on everybody yeah absolutely nutty stuff it's it's really so that's why yeah when you look at like john douglas they just they just turned looked at it in terms of behavior and didn't put all the other stuff out of it because otherwise how do you judge it the clinical diagnoses it's going to be there's so many yeah

it's it's it's wild so psychiatrists caused by the call by the defense by the prosecution and the defense differed over well whether he was mentally ill or insane at the time of the killings dr manual tene testified that the for the defense that ramsey was acutely psychotic and legally insane at the time a lengthy taped interview between ramsey and the dr tene was played to the court and uh so they played this whole thing and he's like see he's pretty out there yeah he's pretty wacky where he's he was talking about the pamphlet and he's talking about demons and he was like we're gonna wake up and have a demon-free life from the rest of our lives brother it was beautiful it's gonna be beautiful like a like an awakening in his own words in his own words so the dr margolis testified

for the prosecution though that ramsey wasn't mentally ill, which counter contradicted this guy. So they keep going back and forth. Dr. Irving Edgar testifying for the prosecution initially testified that he wasn't psychotic and that it was possible that the demon story was fabricated on cross examination. Though, Dr. Edgar testified that he was not sure ramsay knew right from wrong when he was choking his wife and that he was probably psychotic after that so no consensus on anything not only do the psychiatrists disagree with each other but they disagree with themselves depending on who's asking the question in this particular case so not helpful no put it that way so if you're on the if i'm gonna say if you're on the jury you'd be like i don't know i

don't fucking know anybody here a psychiatrist because i don't know what's happening whereas if you're the judge yeah the judges also think they know everything so that's another thing so ramsey seeing of demons was uh basically the prosecution says his seeing of demons was conveniently manufactured because he knew it would be a good defense. So he said as he was killing his wife, he was weeks before that. He was basically planning this and pre-planning the murder and the defense all ahead of time. Well ahead of time, which takes a lot of discipline that I feel like this guy doesn't have. I don't know.

Seems a bit reckless. Exactly. I feel like he just kind of went off the deep end. But the prosecutor said this whole religious thing is a smokescreen. He is no more religious than anyone else. Well, he might read it differently. I think. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know about more or less, but he's certainly not less than anybody else either. I didn't think of it as a competition for who's more. I believe in God more than this motherfucker. I'll tell you what and so if i don't kill my wife over demons he sure as shit gadgill is that's what it sounds like he's competitive does this guy think he's competing for the blue ribbon i feel like it is like he ain't everybody in this courtroom believe in god more than him tell you what i don't know what he's

trying to do here but uh yeah he said that he's no more religious than anything else he noted that two of the three psychiatrists who testified in the case claimed that ramsey was able to differentiate between right and wrong at the time of his wife's killing the inability to discriminate between right and wrong as part of the legal definition of insanity and that the you know the third one disagreed but they all said they all agreed that he never exhibited psychotic behavior in his life prior to killing his wife this never happened before as i mean this this like weird shit fervor and all this is brand new this just came out of nowhere post pamphlet post pamphlet just lost his shit started acting weird over a certain time so that's i mean it came out of nowhere like he had a head injury

or something but he didn't have a head injury so it's very very uh very very strange the prosecutor also argued that he killed his wife because she rejected him that night that was the argument it was had nothing to do with anything else except he she rejected him and he snapped and killed her okay something he's saying it's something very basic rather than something very grandiose. All right. He said, quote, I do not feel this is the type of individual or the type of act that the legislature sought to protect under the insanity provision. I don't know. I don't know either. It's a really hard thing to say.

Closing arguments in the trial were heard here. Ramsey had, like we said, right waved his right here. Fred Locke is the attorney, by the way. in the trial were heard here uh ramsey had like we said right waved his right here fred lock is the attorney by the way fred is his name not that anybody gives a shit but you kind of got to know that stuff attention to detail attention to detail so um he saw he thought that he would have an unlikelihood of having a sympathetic jury so he's waiting for the vert the verdict uh here verdict is here he's tried on first degree murder that's the try the the charge wayne county circuit judge peter v spivak lessens the charge to second degree murder before the

verdict interesting yeah he let well the jury can you can yeah you got lesser charges yeah so he does that and the judge said there was not enough evidence of premeditation to even consider a conviction of first degree murder. Because unless you believed that for weeks he was setting up this big thing, which is pretty elaborate to believe, you can't just say that definitely is true. Then other than that, it just sounds like he lost his shit. Yeah, but it depends too, doesn't it, upon how far does premeditation have to go? Because he knocked on that door and was holding the knife right well that's that's the act okay holding that's the act so holding the knife at the door is included in the act it would be did he set something up

earlier to plan to kill her yeah is he setting up a defense ahead of time so that's the that's what the prosecution's trying to put up is his whole defense is is evidence that he was setting it up as evidence of premeditation him acting like with all his demon shit for a couple weeks that is evidence of him setting up a building his straw man okay which that's a that's that you can't prove that it's a long swing that's a long exactly you gotta take it i guess if you're the prosecutor but the judge does not accept that though It's a swing and a miss for the judge. And the judge said there was not enough evidence for that. He's going to be sentenced.

He could be given a maximum of life imprisonment with psychiatric care while in prison. If he had been acquitted by reason of insanity, like we said, he could be out in two months. Sure. As long as as short as two months. The circuit judge comes back and finds him guilty of second degree murder but mentally ill as well so that's the thing guilty but mentally ill that's good news which is different now to talk about that because it's a weird thing so i found some stature here we'll talk some statute we'll talk here uh the neighbor they said the

major purpose in creating the guilty by mentally ill verdict is obvious it was to limit the number of persons who in the eyes of the legislature were improperly being relieved of all criminal responsibility in the way of the insanity verdict that's what it was in reality people are there's people who are mentally fucking ill seriously mentally, and they do crimes, and you have to figure out what to do with them. And in reality, again, people in the world, in the streets, just people sitting in their houses, they don't want to hear that somebody, quote, got off on something. So if you say, oh, well, they're mentally ill, they'll be sent to a hospital, they're

now angry at home because they want that person to be in a prison instead of a hospital because the hospital's too good because you know 70s mental hospitals were just so cushy right you know tied to a fucking wall drug drooling on yourself was very cushy position to be in and that goes from everything from car theft to fucking murder exactly what i watched that rikers island documentary they've got a wing for those for the people that are fucking and they are they are fucking they're very mentally ill it's true disturbed no there's a lot of certainly disturbed people they didn't kill anybody no they're still dangerous so yeah the legislatures are putting a point in the 70s where they have to people are going to vote them the fuck out and things like that if they don't take a harder stance and don't let people off on

these mental illnesses but in reality people are mentally ill yeah so what are you supposed to do you gotta soften the blow and take that into account you can't and as people in the legislature they can't like say hey children yeah as the adults here i understand your feelings are you want people to suffer but the reality of the world is some people are fucking crazy and sorry if that makes you upset and you think they're getting off, but tough shit. No one's going to tell the public that. And also, it's our responsibility as a civilized society to fucking manage that. And if that responsibility falls on us, too, because look, that's our safety that's involved.

You're 100% right. So they said that that's all. That's the defense is saying, basically, that's the only reason is to not have insanity verdicts. And that's what it is. They found a scapegoat where the jury could still stick a guy in prison and not feel like everyone's going to be mad at them for saying not guilty. But they can be like, but we thought he was mentally ill. And that does something which really it just makes them. Like I said, it just makes them medicate him probably at some point in jail.

i said it just makes them medicate them probably at some point in jail so they said that the uh as stated in the house analysis of the bill creating the verdict one argument in favor of the verdict was that uh this verdict would help juries they said perhaps there seems to be a tendency for people to assume that someone who commits a particularly offensive crime must be insane we see that a lot you see the guy in baraboo you go how's that not crazy right you know how's pocket robin not crazy how's you know rulo not crazy how's phillips oklahoma not there's a million of them jesus 200 and and still on top of that even you have to be crazy to do that even with that have to be crazy bit you still have to take into account the the severity of the crime and if it's fucking just a batch like this is batshit yeah that doesn't happen no it's it's wild so

so the punishment has to fit the crime yeah yeah they said juries uh sometimes the defendants are not legally insane and although it may well have been the intent of the jury that the defendants be committed for a long period of time they were automatically released because when they would find someone not guilty by reason of insanity in the jury's mind they're going to be put in a mental hospital they're going to be put in a facility but they don't realize that they could be let out in 60 days which is not what they're sentencing them to you judged them not guilty i mean what do you want you're putting them away for a minute. There is no in between. There should be a sentence to a hospital maybe or something like that, but they don't have that.

They either have a prison sentence and you're mentally ill, so they don't think of you as anything but crazy. They don't actually help you. Or you go to a hospital and you can be let out at some point. They never found a middle ground there which is uh interesting they said people argue that the purpose of enacting the guilty but mentally ill verdict was to require judges juries and counsel to focus on the critical issue in any insanity case criminal responsibility as well as the frequently distracting issue of mental illness to quote eliminate the substantiality reduce inappropriate insanity verdicts by compelling all participants to focus on the distinct issues in each case with hope that the fact-finding process will have less confusion and will be more likely to produce an accurate factual result. So, yeah, they're saying it just gives you more options.

The Michigan Psychiatric Society here, branch of the American Psychiatric psychiatric society also contends that the guilty but mentally ill verdict is unconstitutional because it creates an irrational distinction this makes sense as well this is the society contends that in psychiatric terms the definition of mental illness and insanity are the same fucking thing okay they're saying that's the same thing so legally if you're saying that you're you're deeming them insane you're legally that words have meanings and if you're that's the legal thing then you're not that's you're doing it wrong is what they're saying they're saying at least call it something different if you're going to do that they said we note that the the claim was contradicted by

the testimony of a psychologist dr stephen bank who found that never mind that so anyway a study for the center for forensic psychiatry in september of 74 indicated that some 350 persons found not guilty by reason of insanity only 20 of them suffered from mental illness sufficient to exculpate them from their crimes so a post study basically one in five were actually nuts and everybody else was, you know, putting it on for extra for the deal. 30% of those persons were found to have no mental illness whatsoever of everybody examined. Nothing. They were just, it was a total act. The remaining 50% were viewed as having some psychosis or neurosis, but with no evident relationship between their mental state and their crime.

So that's fine. Me and you would be falling into that category. So the verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity determines the defendant's mental state at the time of the crime, not afterwards. It doesn't matter if you're fine now. The way the law is written, not guilty by reason of insanity, is supposed to be, were you crazy then when you did the crime? Based on the act. You could have got help and be better now, so that's what mental health is. But at the time, were you crazy?

And that's not how it's done in court. If you sit there looking normal in court, no one's going to say, oh, he was crazy at the time. You have to be fucking crazy in court. They didn't even say Charles Manson was crazy. It's true. And, I mean, come on. Pretty fucking crazy. Or an FBI fbi agent well he also i don't think i don't think charles manson knew what he was doing i think he was pretty much programmed that way yeah to from fuck everything up they had

a plan there read that chaos book it's really tom o'neill it's pretty interesting a lot of bullshit i think maybe but also a lot of like here's a bunch of documents and i'll read them it's like oh well that's really that's just a document from the government and it's pretty pretty damning you know one of those things so uh from the 60s and shit that doesn't matter now the good stuff wants to know about now so um anyway uh uh they said that uh uh view of these statistics a number of persons released after this uh and unless treatment of the mentally ill has progressed far beyond the level of which we are aware one can hardly conclude that the legislature was irrational in finding the insanity verdict to have been misused nor do available statistics support the claim that the jury

compromise is actually occurring prior to the adoption of the guilty but mentally ill verdict his point is zero two four it's like a blood alcohol level percent of adult males arrested were found to be not guilty by the reason of insanity think of that one quarter of one percent and that's what people were freaked out that's what people were so fucking mad about wow because one quarter of one percent of people were found to be insane but when that happened it was publicized so people went everyone's getting off on insanity verdicts no one quarter of one fucking percent which now i'm sorry that's not even a quarter that's point zero two four a quarter less a quarter a quarter of that's of a tenth so little few people there are

more people insane on your train when you ride into work yeah oh by far jesus probably a lot more um there and in 1982 0.032 percent of adult males arrested were found not guilty by reason of insanity so it's not a lot of people no not a lot of people so the statistics you know you can basically can you can interpret them to mean that the guilty but mentally ill verdict having not increased insanity verdicts has actually been completely irrelevant because that was the point i was supposed to reduce them and they're exactly the same if not even more right so what are you gonna do somebody that's in a in a small town in some little sit in you know in rural america that one person that gets off is that son of a bitch yeah systems

broken that's what it is rather than everybody else it's fine so the facilities here they talk about the dr dennis jurzak psychiatric director of the office of health care for the department of corrections that is a long handle jesus christ uh he testified that at the time of this hearing over 13 600 inmates were in the custody of the department of corrections and approximately 700 new inmates were admitted each month he said the only uh there was only one full-time psychiatrist employed by the department one one for 13 600 people who are in prison most of these people could use a talking to you know could use a chat once in a while you don't need to get off your ass just for the people that are one clinically insane wow yeah everybody needs help wow uh he treated

patients approximately two days per week by the way he doesn't even work every day he's got to get to 13 000 he was assisted by three consulting psychiatrists, two psychologists, and one social worker. Because of the inadequate number of psychiatric professionals and paraprofessionals available for conducting initial screening and evaluation of inmates at admission, the doctor was unable to estimate how many prisoners were actually in need of psychiatric care.

There wasn't even enough doctors to figure it out, to make a plan to maybe do something. If he saw eight people a day in an eight-hour day, he's got 16 a week and he's got to get to 13,000? 600. That's a lot. Yeah, I would say. He wouldn't be able to see each person.

No, ever. Once. See, in seven years of your parole hearing. So apart from one registered nurse who worked a daytime shift, the department did not have a professional nursing staff. And nursing duties included including supervising and feeding psychiatric patients and handling them. Handing them medication were performed by guards and inmates. He testified also into repeated allegations that patients were targets of physical assault, including sexual assault by inmate nurses. That sounds right. People being able to medicate them, having power over them that are fucking inmates.

Yeah, you can't do that. He also testified that the psychiatric services were performed on a crisis basis and that because of inadequate staffing and facilities, many mentally ill inmates were forced to remain in the general population where they're mentally ill. Yeah, that's just read that new Jack Ted Conover is the author book about Sing Sing. And he just talks about how many people in their mentally ill. He's like, it's a third of the patients at least are mentally ill, need help. Don't get any.

They let them sit in there and scream and bang their head against the fucking wall and get beat up by other inmates because they're sick of hearing them and shit like that. And they're vulnerable. They're very vulnerable. Yeah, they're not. Or they're dangerous, too, sometimes. Either way, they need to be helped.

So, yeah, they said that sometimes they basically it was a waste of time because of the delay in obtaining a transfer. Most of the transferred patients were returned right back to prison because they weren't crazy you know in legal terms anymore they weren't having that incident anymore because it took a week to get them to talk to somebody even though they had a huge psychiatric whatever uh anyway the guy concluded we don't provide adequate treatment for anyone who is mentally ill in our system so yeah uh anyway he has appeals and the appeals are based on sentencing for the mentally ill because he's sentenced you sir may fuck off to life in prison oh for this but um the problem is it just doesn't basically they they go through all of this and they said that uh uh his lawyer said, people are scared of Bruce Ramsey.

They wonder what happens if he gets out and sees another devil. Yeah, that's fair. He said, this is the lawyer. He said, quote, I call this the devil murder case. Oh, boy. He said, the facts are that Bruce Ramsey, a born-again Christian, gets into some kind of fight with his wife, chokes and stabs her 32 times in front of the children while yelling, let the devil out, go away, demon, die. He then forces his little boy to pray with him over the body,

expecting his wife to come back to life. The police come and find him asleep in bed with his wife's body. He's like, you know, this is fucking crazy is what he's saying. This is mentally ill. This is ridiculous. Whether you're scared he's going to see another demon or not he you know this guy should be need some kind of help he said the guilty but mentally ill verdict is unconstitutional because the defendant could not be mentally ill as defined

under the law and still have needed conscious intention to commit the murder that's what i don't understand he says quote how can those two conditions exist at the same time they're those two are mutually exclusive they cancel each other out either you're guilty or you're mentally ill can't be both okay you know so they just found that so that's that's what he says anyway he also said the verdict is unfair because the judge can tell jurors that a defendant found innocent by reason of insanity could be released in as little as 60 days that that is asking the jury to decide a case based on emotions hey this guy could be out in two months and not uh logic and evidence sure the judge tells the

jury not to consider it when reaching their verdict but that's like cutting open an onion in the courtroom and telling the jury not to smell it again fair they're gonna they're gonna think about that absolutely so uh yeah this is how it works uh they're going to that the prosecution during the appeal says that his satanism is a total sham it's all bullshit he said that uh he conveniently manufactured the demon story because he knew it was a good defense he played it pretty strong in front of his kids while he was doing it so that's the only thing where i go while he was killing her though he was yelling that shit uh so this all goes on they there's a this big appeal a bunch of issues including adequacy of mental care

is he getting any care his first uh it's upheld the first verdict in 1979 it's upheld uh luckily they said the trial court's findings are not clearly erroneous. Not clearly erroneous. Not clearly erroneous, but a little bit. A little murky. There was sufficient evidence to support all of this findings and conclusions. So they put those there. Also, the daily lottery numbers that day were 884. It's in the same newspaper clip I found. So following a remand to the trial court for further factual findings, because that's one of his they remand for that but it's not getting rid of a sentence or anything the court granted at his

application for leave to appeal so he could still appeal now this case went totally under the radar yeah after this i don't know what happened but i do know that he is out of prison he was out of prison by 1987 oh seven years not only was he at 77 is when it happened not only was he out of prison by 77 i don't know or 87 i don't know what the laws are for voter registration for felons in michigan but i don't know if it's five years or to get your rights back or what the waiting period is. Some states you can get it right away. But he is registered to vote on November 3rd, 1987. Oh, my. So whatever the time period is, that's how long he's been out.

So I don't know. But that's a long. That's fast. That's fast. That's really fast. Somehow he got not only got something turned over but out of prison he served that right he served a sentence for murder and then was able to vote it's that's wild he like he's still he's 77 years old and he's out he's out there my god he's in a small

town in michigan right now so uh keep an eye out if you hear anybody yelling about demons or devils take it seriously that motherfucker might be stabbing people so watch out for that unbelievable see an old guy waving about demons and shit yeah get on the other side of the sidewalk kidnapping uh governors yeah that's gonna it's who knows it's gonna happen up there he might have been a part of that so that's everybody jesus christ what a disaster that's michigan that is brook what the browns brownstown township yeah i wanted to call it brooktown brownstown township there holy shit what a weird story unbelievable what the yeah how the hell we had to wrap up all the 200 episodes with one bow of weird for 200. And I have to tell everybody, we have some crazy shit coming up.

Good. Have a wild case in Maine that's, I mean, out there like crazy. We have one of the most barbaric, insane crime sprees I've ever heard of in my life on Long Island that we're going to do one of these days for New York. And then we have one in Oklahoma coming up. So expect those those in the next three four weeks right right through the end of the new year we're going to be just we're going to be killing it jimmy and for lack of a better term birth of the new birth of the new year rid of this bullshit that said if you like this and if you continue to listen to this you should get on apple podcast give us a review that purple icon very important give us a review that purple icon very important

give us a review it does help a lot drives us up the charts we don't know why but it does so if you want to help the show that's a great way to do it another way to do it would be go to uh shut up and give me murder.com all of your info for all the shows are there merchandise get your cheer up bitch sweater designs christmas sweater designs because they are hilarious and it comes in everything not just sweaters obviously t-shirts and bags and whatever the hell we got on there so check that out so much fun get all your merchandise check out the the new dates for live shows as they're moved we'll be reposting them and everything and speaking of live shows virtual live show another one yes january the 29th and uh we're gonna do a regular show just

like we would do a live show on the road right same shit it's gonna be a live show pictures and all that pictures everything real case same thing yeah the prisoner dating game was a try run all right i'm gonna do a test run and see see how it works and we figured out we needed better mics so now we got that and it's gonna be a wonderful production and everything and uh we can't wait to present that to everybody out there so we tickets are not on sale yet when they are on sale we'll let you know don't worry about that so january the 29th do that uh listen to crime and sports as well if you haven't yet because we did murder this week listen to that listen to ps i hate this movie because we did twilight this week james wanted to murder this week oh my god i could have said let cast out the demons i would

have for this movie yeah you put kristin stewart or robert pattinson or any of them in front of me i'd cast those demons right out this weekend so uh yeah check all of that out follow us on social media we're at murder small on twitter at small town pod on facebook and at small town murder on instagram as well and patreon of course patreon bonus episodes we do so much bonus stuff for you and we take that shit seriously those are like the funniest things the bonus episodes so much fun last week for crime and sports we did mark shumura the uh allegedly babysitter molesting tight end for the green bay packers and then we did mark shumura the uh allegedly babysitter molesting tight end for the green bay packers and then we did thanksgiving day murders throughout time for it was so much fun

and next week we'll have two more bonus episodes for you and they're going to be just as crazy so do all that everything there and more over at patreon.com slash crime and sports anybody over the five dollar level gets access to everything and everybody who gets who donates anything will include also a shout out from jimmy end of the show in our producer segment he will fuck your name up royally absolutely so do all that you'll also get your name fucked up royally and you'll get wonderful karma if you go to paypal and use our email address crime and sports at gmail.com another way to make a donation so with that said yeah i need to hear the names of the people who i would never think are full of demons that i need to cast out some of these demons please please hit me with these wonderful demon names drop them on me now jimmy this week's

executive producers are cameron kushwara uh maria kip suesley john miller uh and he donated twice wow thank you he also has had covid twice oh my god unbelievable this poor bastard lord hang in there john sorry but thank you janine derbeck and talena jensen happy birthday uh jake nasso mark wismar jordan bennett still thank you so much thank you jordan nicholas 11 and they just bought a truck by the way congratulations jordan and Jake Nasso, Mark Wissmer, Jordan Bennett, still. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jordan. Nicholas Leavitt. And they just bought a truck, by the way. Hey, congrats. Congratulations, Jordan and Simon.

Good for you guys. Nicholas Leavitt. I said that. Carol Braun's sticking around. Thank you, Carol. Denise Anderson, RJ Harmon, Aaron Shiflet, Dede Aree, I think. A-R-E. It could be R or Aree.

Aree. Aree. Thank you, Dede. Jolene Robinson, Donna Katzenkulo, Jackie Marin, Kim Fletterman. I think that's right. Deb. Oh, boy. It's already going downhill.

Ramondos. Oh, Ramondos. That's not right either. Jules and John Harris. I think they're in Pennsylvania. No, they're not. Austin Lomax and Sam Kranzwick. Thank you guys so much.

Thank you so much. You guys are actual heroes. Thank you. Other producers this week are Thomas Smith, Jennifer Baird, Teresa Ann Brown, Nicole Lopez, Andrew Sullivan, Robbie Barton, Tracy Renninger, Catherine Lano, Kyle O'Rourke. What is this? Afra? Afra Tulip?

That's not right. I apologize. It might be uh probably not though jennifer visconti katarina niazolka uh alexis amos uh christine harrington jacqueline hannaford peyton meadows amanda knight bradley hinkle uh what is this and and what did what did i do oh that's on the next line no it's not uh dan roy Dan Roy? Dad Roy? Oh, and his dad, Roy. Oh, and his dad, Roy. I was going to ask you, and his dad, do you want to guess his name?

Roy. Deca Castleberry, Samuel Hunt, Gabrielle Gray, Matthew Morris, Samantha Danielson, John Kimbrough, Daniel Barbier, Santiago Quinones, Stephen Elwell, Brian Crosby, Laura Tisner, James Martyr, Liz Vasquez, Ann Edwards, Travis Goodrich, Emily Henrigillis, Baby Yoda, Janice Hill, Pink Zebra, Kristen would know last name, Reed Polk, David would know last name, Kim Taylor, Sam Shore. Happy birthday. Austin Grover. Jessica would know last name. Madison McDonald. Evan Glidwell. Alan Caruso. Samantha Koston. I think that's right.

Jessica Gore. Mary would know last name. Josh. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Widget. Oh, that's a weird name. Oh, boy.

Oh, boy. Terrible last name. Melissa Walker. Gino Marcello. He works over at Oakwood. And I believe, yes, it's true, he lost his mom or his dad. Oh, no. Lost a fucking family member. I'm sorry about that.

I apologize, Gino. Hang in there, man. Phil McGroin. Yeah, gotcha. Taylor Walden. Ashley White. Leslie Hull. Anna L.

Anita Martinez. In the memory of Matt Walker from Matt Villanueva. Thank you very much. Thank you. Terribly sorry about your friend. Charles Butel, John Mole, Jen Pollock Bianco, Lou Weber, Ben Heather. Yes. Butel, is that one name?

Or Butel, maybe. I think that's my first. I don't know that guy. Maybe you know him? He's a good guy. Butel? Yes. It's possible.

Good deal. Thanks, Butel. Thank you. Ben Heather and Hannah showed him the show through the Rulo episode. know him yeah it's possible good thanks butel thank you uh ben heather and hannah uh showed him the show through um uh the rulo episode oh boy good wow got in on the dirty side hell of a swing uh britney would know last name tom olson gregory swainston john clarkin god damn it stina oaks magnus quancock that can't be right. Kaylee Stillians. Rabbi Shmulalovich.

Every week. I know. I love them. It's unbelievable. Kirt Nierum. Karen Scheline. Natalie Haynes. Glenda Winfield.

Gregory Burr. Happy birthday to Athena Happias. Yeah. I don't know how to say her last name. She's wonderful, though. I love her. She's awesome. Robertson Simon. It might be Simon Robertson.

I'm not sure. Morgan Schwartz. Michael Schmidt. Kristen. Nope, that's Crystal Ferguson. Joanne Ahern. Jude Kendall. Kyle Francis.

Kasina Horton. Fata what? Fat Acid? Fatacid. Hey. I don't know. Kristen Brennan, or is it Drennan? It's Brennan, I think.

Carrie Wilson, Anthony Arzaga, Jessica Stewart, Sarah Seward, Don Griggs. Boy, oh, boy. Nope, that's a Z. Ziaxia? That's not right either. Z-H-A-I-X-X-A. Damn. It's like a last name of a porn actor.

It's like a science fiction movie. Or that. Lisa Tucker. Damn. It's like a last name of a porn actor. It's like a science fiction movie. Or that. Lisa Tucker. Anthony sent me money because he didn't like my bullshit Chipotle recipe, and he would

like us to go get real Chipotle. Other producers are Karen Bruce, Joy Wagner, Jay Bird Ford, Brian Bryce, I. Ford. Damn it. Brian Bryce. I think. Alex Manning. Jesus Christ. Era. Abrahamian. No.

Tara Jacobson. Shannon with no last name. John Deck. Alexa Tewalt. Jennifer Klepaki. Zara. Nope. That's Sarah Zalewski.

That's why. Because there's a Z in her last name. Jake Cowley. I think. Spector with no last name. Loretta Dillon. Z in her last name. Jake Cowley, I think. Spector would know last name. Loretta Dillon. Chris would know last name. Aaliyah Maxey. Julia Ransom.

Mayra. Myra. Caitlin Cha. Nope. Alexia. Nope, that's Alicia Lowe. Dave Greer. David Allen's, yep.

Obviously. Right. Duh. Kathleen Ferguson. Mallory Kennedy. Chris Riddig. Riddig. God damn it patrick allen patrick mccue carissa ryan jenny evans connor oh boy oh boy nugget that's the last name that

didn't seem that bad it seems like you gotta got that i'll make it difficult you got that that uh roger was what miss spager sarah row eric hunt jeff dackle decal dilk no teresa boat girl in shirt what oh girl in shirt got it it's about the girl in the shirt uh katie jesse dustin manly jennifer lance joshua chandler alana uh crronard, Hunter Blake, Mikey Furley, Fairley, Trey Lifton, Litten, God damn it, Sarah with no last name, Christina Peters, Alyssa Camacho, Stephen Gibbs, Cassie Gilbert, Josh McGrew, John Haberland, Grace, God damn it, Dyer, Davin, what, Davin, Devon, Dawn Johnson. Jesus. Dawn Johnson. Dawn Johnson's not a hard name. Theyer. Davin. What? Davin? Devon? Dawn Johnson. Jesus. Dawn Johnson.

Dawn Johnson's not a hard name. The woman spelling of Dawn. Yes. Yeah. Got it. I wrote it terribly. Jessica Bennett. Michael Delancey.

Peyton Brewer. Dirt Girl. Tamara Carpenter. Liz Line. Ryan Carter. Kate Peterson. Julie Ball. Janine Bonadel.

It's Italian. That's why. Hey, you're going to mess it up. Alexis. Nope. That's Alex Lopes. Kelly with no last name. Anthony and Cara Guglielmo.

Guglielmo. I got it. Sorry, Paisans. Saskia Shepard. I'm going to fuck them all up. What the fuck? Alicia. Nope.

Yes. Elisa. Alita. Ebenius. Collect yourself. Unbelievable. the fuck alicia nope yes elisa alita eubanius uh what oh only collect yourself unbelievable kyle burkhardt alexandra pressler robert wagner probably not the one that killed that i assume daniel arnold uh wolf with no last name john miller what's yeah he doesn't want to call himself out or the guy that cleans up murders. Mackenzie Sanders.

Joseph Merkel. James Scheele. Kiela. Kyla. Baker. Fuck. Alex Dew. Brennan with no last name.

Shelby Hart. Brianna Angle. Probably Kurt's daughter. Tyler Coppins. Coppins. Christina Biasalo. Izaquera. No.

Robert Lerma. Ricky Shorts. Maren Ahern. Lauren A. Gianna. Ricky Shorts and Richard Pants is his father. Cousin Dickie Socks. Maren Ahern.

I said that. Gianna Young. What is this? Allison Johns. Deanna Rodekap. Rodekap. Kelly Tyler Herrington. Oh, that's what it is. Kelly and Tyler Herrington. young what is this allison johns diana robot road a cap road cap kelly tyler uh herring carrie oh that's what it is kelly and tyler harrington and their son mark mcnugget or mac nugget he spelled it mac nugget all right i'll bet it's a mcnugget and he'll take it fucked up

natasha zarnstraf uh daniel brown hannah kern seven uh purdue sivan tracy williams ashley Vern, Sivan Perdue, Sivan, Tracy Williams, Ashley Bart, what is this, Bart, geez, Taylor Vista, Vasta, Lake Pasta, Hunter Knight. We got a few more. Here we go. Megan and Jay Tuharski, Rihanna Klein, Robin Heyer, Jeff Barros, Molly, Molly? I think it's Molly, get it? I think that's right no ali tharton barb goza eric berg al alison with no last name robert thompson jordan collard christine simple darren levinsky cynthia dean amber hart emma with no last name a breaver i think uh josh palace nope that's place jared pitt Melanie McGinnis. Teresa Brower.

Amanda Scott Torelli. Torelli. Jorge Torres. Jonathan Geiger. Martine Lindaberger. What? Linda Berger. That broke it.

Nicole Blaker. Mark Tarzanelli. Tarzanadol. Fuck. Sarah Billinghurst. Clayton Foster. Francesca Corendi. Corendi, cheer up with no bitch. Taylor Mays, Joan Hutchison, Kyle Walker, John, nope, yeah, that's John Cornejo. Corneo?

Corneo. Cornejo. Hey, Corneo. It's possible. George Wright, Joe Cassidy, McKenna Misfelt, Crystal Parker, Ben with no last name, Sab C., Enda McCallan, Nadia Blumstrand, Mark Yoder, Jessica Cummins, Megan Yarbrough. Okay. He said K. I got to collect myself. Here's the thing.

It's my penmanship. And people are like, print it out, bro. I can't do that because I can't do it in order. Yeah. It becomes more difficult. Alexis Presson, Lanell Iontan, David Malloy, Eric McDonald, Patrick Johnson, Tricia Zavala, Aaron Everett, Martin Lynch, Justin Michael Bard, Maria would know last name, Tiffany Kuipert, Aaron would know last name, E.S.

And her name's Emily. I don't know what her last name is. Megan Locke, Mark Howard, Ellen Jones, J.D. Fogarty, April Rush, Jessica Finch, Diane Taylor, Joe Gallagher, Eliud Uribe, Brandon Calvin, Robin Owens, Logan Beck, Samantha Koston, Mackenzie Vought, I think, Justina Pesavegis. Wow, yeah, you sure about that? I think so. Dixie Hupp, Michelle Madel, Zach Michael, Andrew Freeman, Christopher Centori, Centorini, Centorani, Joe Fogarty, Paige Midgley, Drew Shockley, Tenelle Bentenhouse, Alicia Cox, Nathan, nope, that's just Nate Huffnagle, Valerie Lynn Woods, Russell Long, I was super jacked, Elizabeth Airy Hood, Timothy Young, Dylan Wayne Stewart, Andrew Chapman, Stacy Cole, Terrence Caliquit,

Stacy Cole, Terrence Caliquit, Sarah Falco, James McMahon, Noah Delmfort, Katrina and Amanda, no last names, Jonathan Usery, Patrick Miller, James Dorsey, Trey Calhoun, Cassandra Schilling, William Gwild, Jennifer Brashears, Silas Ortegren. It's his birthday. Hey, happy birthday. I'm not going to be good at this. Christian Clark, Hannah Corbett, James Curtis, Christina Johansson, Kate Tiro, Kelly with no last name, Tristan Ward, Brad Kane, Patricia Vincent, Brittany Grimes, Lisa Klein, Robert Esparza, Rebecca Perotti, Perotte E. Bryant, Marina Buell, I think, Charles Lewis, Caitlin Gordy, Cheryl Leprade, Tracy Stouffer, Tawny Lynn, Matthew Healy, Stephanie Ockendeder, Lisa Byard, Evan Jade, Timothy Hamill, Tasha with no last name, Madeline Walker, Joshua Stuff, Sherry Eckert, Hunter with no last name, J030113. Not a birth. I don't know. Wow.

Might be a birth. I don't know. Who the hell knows? Half of Social Security? It's a prison number. Stephanie Boguman and all of our patron sponsors. You guys are the best. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much, everybody. Honestly, thank you from the bottom of our hearts for everything this year. Unbelievable. This has been a crazy year. And as we've seen, I mean, big clubs go out of business. All this stuff happens. And you guys have kept us afloat and kept us in business, even though we couldn't go on the road. Right.

Which is normally kind of how we make our living you guys we you know basically if we hustle on patreon you guys will hustle for us and you are happy to do that stuff you've done it we're happy to do it for you we're just we just want to keep you guys i know it's been shitty for everybody so we want to keep everybody you know hopefully get some laughs a couple times a week and all that sort of stuff so thank you for all your support this year. Honestly, it means everything to us. Jimmy, how can they thank you while you're thanking them? They can find me on social media.

And they did today with Spotify's VAT 2020. Those are cool. Thank you guys so much for tagging us in that. We like that shit. It's really cool to see how many of you are listening to this. And for how much fucking time? It's really mind-boggling. It is.

Mind-blowing. I'm so flattered. So thank you very much where can i find you i'm at jimmy p is funny just copy and paste my name you'll find me on there somewhere you guys know how to everybody out there knows how to find people you've done a great job you know how to do it you found this show so find us there stick around stick around that said you know what coming at you for another 200 yeah we're still gonna be here you're going to be able to get rid of us. We enjoy this too much. As long as everybody keeps listening, we will keep doing it. So until then and until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.