Small Town Murder - #230 - The Miracle Murder - Tijeras, New Mexico

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

This week, in Tijeras, New Mexico, when a murder suspect leads detectives to the scene of the crime, even hardened investigators are shocked at what they find there. What led to this? A life of lies, some of which couldn't be taken back, and the only solution was murder. That... or demonic possession. One, or the other! Along the way, we find out that there at least a few Italians in New Mexico, that some lies are too big to admit, and that just when we think we've heard it all, along comes this story!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts## See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Tijeras, New Mexico, where a suspect agrees to take investigators to the scene of the crime, but they could never

have imagined what they'd actually find there. back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us this week we couldn't be more excited as always which sounds odd when we're talking about the subject matter we discuss but sure we have a good time anyway in spite of

it that's what it is so thank you so much for joining us first of all thank you for your reviews this week apple podcast please get on there give us five stars if you have not also check out the upside down digital network which is our new network where we're presenting you shows game of crimes just premiered their first two episodes and coming up though in a couple of weeks here we cannot wait what is it july 9th i believe uh july 9th life after happy face um with the hosts are melissa moore, whose father is the Happy Face Killer, which you might know as a very infamous serial killer. So you want to talk about a unique perspective on the whole thing. And her co-host, Dr. Laura Petler, is just a pedigree in all of this stuff. So it's a really, really amazing inside, really unique point of view on murders.

And it's just something that's not out there and something that I would love to listen to. And when she told us about it, we just were like, wow, when can I hear that? Like, never mind, put it on our network. When can I hear that? That sounds amazing. But, yeah, of course, on the network. And it's great because she's not just being very involved with herself. She's interested in other things that are happening, too.

Like the Gypsy Rose saga, the Jodi Arias saga. She's interested in all of it, and she really gets deep. She's good at this. So check that out. July 9th, Life After Happy Face. That is on the Upside Down Digital Network, brought to you by yours is truly, I guess, both of us. So the plurals that said also head over to shut up and give me murder dot com right now for all of your needs, your crime and sports, your small town murder needs.

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Shut up and give me murder.com. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you want to be. The episodes we just put up this weekend are hilarious. Let's just say that. First of all, and you get access to all of our Patreon for both the shows, everything. So for the crime and sports one, you get everything for five and above the all paternity team for crime and sports, which is the athletes with the most kids. And also we make sure that

they're also not taking care of a lot of them we're talking least responsibility yeah we're talking 14 kids with nine women type of action we have several that are it's wild check that out and then the small town murder one is one of the funniest things we ever did one star motel reviews from small towns that we've done on the show. So that was places you're familiar with from the show. Oh my God. Is it hilarious? Just the insanity that goes on in these motels and the complaining. It's hilarious.

Patreon.com slash crime and sports. And Jimmy will give you a shout out at the end of the show because you're a producer and dammit, you deserve that. So thank you so much. Now the disclaimer quickly it's a comedy show it is it is we're comedians we are we we understand that we're talking about terrible horrible subject matter that's that irony is not lost on us trust us we get it but the thing

is there's so much to talk about around a murder that is insane when someone goes i'm gonna commit this crazy act i think i can pull it off and start that's are you talking about right there that's crazy and in need of some comic roasting right there so that's what we're talking there's so much to talk about obviously it's not hilarious when someone's being murdered and we're not going to make jokes about that because we go out of our way not to make jokes about the victims yeah or victims' families. Why? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that works. That's the deal.

So if that sounds good to you, we're going to have a good time hearing about a terrible story. And that's a tightrope, and we're going to walk it. If you think true crime and comedy should never go together, maybe we're not for you. We might be, though. You might want to check it out. It might be not what you think it is.

Either way, though, at this point point it is time to sit back clear the lungs and shout shut up let's do it jimmy okay let's go on a trip shall we i will you know what i i'm surprised we're going on a trip right now let's do it we're doing it uh t-h-e-r-r-s new mexico t-h-e-r-r-s t-h-e-r-r-s new mexico is how it's pronounced t-h-e-r-r-s new mexico t-i-j-e-r-a-s okay so i had to look up the pronunciation of that one yeah because i'm like is it spelled is the j like spanish or is it going to be like somewhere in texas where they're like give me a quesadilla i don't give a shit how you say it that's how you say it here like i don't know how they're gonna play it yeah you know what i mean down in tijua tijua hana down i don't know what the hell you want to call it tijua hana

so uh this is north central new mexico it's outside of albuquerque kind of off into the east mountains of off of albuquerque yeah this is this is rough rough going here um high elevation you know over 6 000 feet elevation here dear god yeah it's about 20 minutes a little over 20 minutes to right to albuquerque about four hours to the east to amarillo and five hours all the way down to unis, New Mexico, which was our last New Mexico episode. Wait a minute. Episode 136. Oh, my.

This is 230 that we're on right now. That was September 11th, 2019. Long time ago. Post-September 11th. You know how that goes. Post-September 11th, pre-pandemic. You know how that is. Area code 505, just like Albuquerque.

1.14 square miles it's like one of these little like a tombstone kind of town it's like an ancient old kind of timey town yeah it's one of those uh motto here i gotta give them credit for honesty sometimes i'm like come on that's bullshit but then you see one like this and you're like yeah it's true quote turn around you've gone too far that's where are you you're not on the what is this go back you couldn't get worse did yeah well here we are now the history of this town we'll we'll talk about they had a they found a site and on the uh t harris pueblo Site here, and it was occupied by ancestral Pueblo people from 1313 back in the day there to 1425. Yeah, and they had about 200 rooms all in terraced buildings arranged in a big U shape.

It's like a convention hotel they made for themselves a long, long time ago. 1300s. 1300s, yeah. And it was partially abandoned in about 1360 and then rebuilt again in about 1390 and then finally abandoned after about 1425. And they said it was probably like droughts or water shortages or they just realized they lived in new mexico and they left i'm not sure whichever one that was somebody came through and

said there's better places elsewhere you got you know you're allowed to leave they were like oh shit really yeah let's just take off we'll just get on the 40 and go i mean it's easy does it still exist is that place still there can you see it i think there yeah it's an archaeological site uh it's incredible into harris yeah yeah, it's an archaeological site. Incredible. In Tehran. Yeah, I think it's like a, I don't know if you can like walk around on it or anything, but it's there. Should probably protect that. Yeah, it was part of a land grant created in 1763 to defend Albuquerque, the city, growing city, from raids of Comanches and the the kiowas and the plains apaches as well and so a bunch of people went there and um there was 19 men with a couple of them had some kids with them

and shit like that and uh at that point the the uh the natives uh attacked them more and killed several of them and they abandoned the area in 1771. Fascinating. And then just wandered back in in about 1819. They were like, all right, well, it seems clear now. That was that. So have some reviews of this town here. Reviews, three stars we'll start out with.

And there's no real bad ones. People seem to, you'll see what I mean. There's a vibe to all of them. Anybody never have a bad day, James? Never have a bad day? I never have a bad i'm still i'm still better than that guy never having a bad day here never had one not a single bad day you know that song more than words james that's how much i hate that guy and how much did he what town was that too i don't even remember just last week yeah i've never been anywhere where i'm that happy with my surroundings ever anywhere never had a bad day never had a bad day never it's gorgeous i'm still mad it's in the hills of tuscany just never had a bad day it's gorgeous a week later

i'm still boiling about it that does piss me off too i get it that was that was one of those i got real angry about that one last week. How do you say that? I've just had several life experiences anger me since then and knock it out of first place. So here's three stars. I have lived here all my life, and it is very nice to look at, but it's very difficult to move around and be close to anything depending on where you live. And the weather is very weird, but still good. Do you understand what any of that means nothing it's nice to look at but very difficult to move around and be close to anything

depending on where you live the weather is very weird but still good that could mean anything those are certainly sentences that's those are all sentences they really don't it's like a mad lib that yeah like they had three different people write a sentence. You write a part, you write a part. What are we writing about? Doesn't matter. Just anything and I'll put it together. So, very strange.

I know there it's like not that hot in the summer and it snows in the winter because it's like high elevation. That's Albuquerque. Yeah, it's four stars is the next one. Living in a smaller mountain community is wonderful. Close enough to drive into Albuquerque, but can still maintain the mountain lifestyle. It's not. What kind of what is that? So what are you hunting?

Trapping beaver? What are you doing? You know, collecting pelts. What's your mountain? We go to church's chicken down the road or we can just be mountain men. That's what they are. We can kill our dinner. Yeah.

Or we can we can kill a chicken in the church parking lot either one still so checking you know four stars this one makes this is these people i think there's like brain damage i know because this is in the path going down to where we talked about richard ramirez getting brain damage from the uh from the nuclear fallout right i feel like this is a problem here. I feel like these people are, it's affecting their cognitive ability. Four stars. After walking with our neighbor's beautiful dog, I found out that there are over a dozen dogs in this neighborhood.

That's a review of? It gets better. We also have occasional visits from rare wildlife, including morning housecoat lynx, house cat lynx, an evening brown bear, and nocturnal coyotes. Plenty of hummingbird squirrels, mountain jays, and skylarks. We've enjoyed a block party in the cul-de-sac, and sometimes we visit the neighbors. More frequently, we see our neighbors at mailboxes or out for a walk i think this person confused this website with facebook i think this is an older woman yeah this is like an old lady's facebook post like i found out there's over a dozen dogs in my neighborhood

you're like oh christ grandma fine i'll give you a like see that or ranger rick has retired to jajarits that's one of the that's possible too oh christ that's hilarious i found out good for you sir i found out there's over a dozen here there's over a dozen dogs in the neighborhood it's a neighborhood you figure about half the people have dogs about in the country what 40 50 percent of people have dogs is amazing however many people are half that, and that's probably how many dogs you got, I would say. You know how we're people. There are other things that live here, too. Have you ever seen a hummingbird? We have squirrels.

She literally said squirrels. We have squirrels. Terrific. Good for you. What are you, bragging about fucking squirrels? Unbelievable. So here's five stars perfect quote we don't really have crime here but often people driving to the mountains are lost

taking the wrong side of the exit ramp okay which happens okay now the last one i just thought was funny because it's a person after your heart who hates new mexico you've been you have this weird i really did fucking he hates new mexico like i don't like omaha it's not even like rational it's just this weird it's any time i had to go from phoenix to colorado my mom was too cheap to fucking put me on a plane so she would drive my fat ass across this country and 66 of that drive is through that piece of shit in New Mexico, and I hate it. Yeah, you're right. Well, here's four stars. Yeah. Four stars.

Quote, I don't really like New Mexico. That's the first sentence. I like it already. However, this is a good location in this state. It's close to Albuquerque, but it's much greener and quieter. There are some other better places like Santa Fe and Sandia Park, but tois, Cedar Creek comes in a close second. We have been here three years and I don't intend to live elsewhere in New Mexico. If we leave, we will leave the state.

Tahiris or bust for these fucking people. They found the one place they'll tolerate. Not playing. I hate the whole state but here. I get a DUI here. I'm fucking moving to Texas. I'm out. Population here, 596. So a DUI here. I'm fucking moving. I'm out. Population here.

Five hundred ninety six. So a very small place up 75 percent since 1990, which it's 20 minutes. So you can drive. You can work in Albuquerque and live in a quieter place. And it's in the middle. It looks like it's in the middle of nowhere. So, yeah, I mean, it is. I mean, like, but if you live there there you wouldn't think you could drive to like

a corporate job 20 minutes away you know what i mean doesn't feel like that i don't think so the population male population 55 which is way out of whack yeah it's usually a few more females than males but uh there are like no elderly people here either yeah like none they're fed to the lynx that's i guess yeah the lynx and the squirrels get them i guess they're just grandpa's slipping put them out for the minx and you just tie them to like a board in the front yard the minx tear them to pieces are they minx or lynx lynx lynx i meant lynx i'm sorry i say minx the last time uh yeah house cat lynx yeah they are okay got it so uh the married population is all about normal, all those stats, married and single and all that shit with no kids, with kids, all that crap.

But single with no children is also low, 6%. All of these small towns, nobody's single with no children. They must move to cities to fuck people, I think. I don't know, man. And small towns, too. People, like, obviously, I mean, everywhere they go, people fuck everybody. to fuck people i think that's what i don't know man and small towns too people they like obviously i mean everywhere they go people fuck everybody but small towns it's like everybody's fucking you're gonna get well yeah they're the only people there yeah you're gonna have a kid that's true too

uh now race of this town 43 percent white which is much lower than the average and much lower than most small towns. 0.0% black. 0.0% Asian. 0.0% Native American, which is surprising in New Mexico. 55.5% Hispanic, though. Fascinating. So, yeah, it's definitely heavy. A lot of Mexican dudes here, I would imagine. They're either John or Juan here.

That's what it is. That's how it goes right here. It's all it's here. White dudes, Mexican dudes. And it's all dudes They're either John or Juan here. That's what it is. That's how it goes right here. That's all that's here. White dudes, Mexican dudes. And it's all dudes, as we saw from the thing. Religion, about 48% are religious, so close to normal. And it's mostly Catholic, because you're going to have a heavy Hispanic population. 27.3% Catholic, because Catholics are the Baptists of the high plain plateau mesa regions.

I don't know what else to call it. The Catholics of the desert? Of the high desert, I guess. The Catholics of the high desert. The Baptists of the high desert. So 0.4% Jewish. That's more than I expected here, honestly. That's more than normal in our towns.

We have last election in the whole county, which includes Albuquerque here. 61% Democrat and 36.6% Republican with a 2.4% independent. Unemployment rate is a touch higher than the national average. It's like 7% as opposed to 6%. But the median household income is also high. Normally, it's about 57,000. Here, it's a little over 73,000. That's great. as opposed to 6%. Sure. But the median household income is also high. Normally, it's about $57,000. Here, it's a little over $73,000.

That's great. Yeah. So there's a lot of more white-collar jobs than normal, I think, because you can go to Albuquerque. Yeah, sure. So most small towns don't have that option of being right outside a big city like that. So cost of living, though, $100,000 is average and regular. Here, it's $99,000. It's pretty close.

Housing's actually a little high. It's a 113. Yeah, that's what happens in those. It's all these hills. Like every house is like on a hill or either that or just in the middle of a fucking empty dirt field. Right. One of the two. Median home costs $261,400.

So it's a little high, honestly. $1,400. So it's a little high, honestly. And if we've convinced you, damn it, that you need to be here, obviously, because you're like that other person. You don't like New Mexico, but you like it here. We have for you the T. Harris New Mexico Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $979, which is a deal because the houses are more expensive than the average, so that's lower. So renting seems to be the way to go. I found a two-bedroom, two-bath, 960-square-foot trailer.

Dump, yeah. It's a trailer that's got the things around the bottom, so it doesn't look like it's going to drive away any minute but it's still a trailer it's sitting on 2.5 acres okay of absolutely flat dirt with not a living thing growing on it just i mean it looks like it's like the surface of the of mars and you just stuck a trailer on it and you're like you own 2.5 acres of that buddy if you've never seen new mexico that is a an unbelievable comparison look at the mars rover photos oh you've now been to new mexico especially this house it's a great place to stash a body on a budget though 175 000 for that so you can you know throw that, push it off the property. Yeah. It's the land that you're paying for. Yeah.

Three bedroom, 2.5 bath place here. 1,578 square foot. It's a nice house. It sits on the side of a hill. So some of the house is in the hill. It looks cool looking. It sits all by itself on 1.61 acres. It's a decent house.

So rad. But $325,000 for that. so you're going to pay for it. Then I found, here we go. You're doing great. You're running shit here. Five bedroom, three and a half bath, 4,386 feet, square feet. Beautiful. On 3.19

acres. Oh, you're doing it. It's nice, but bleak. I mean the land is grim around you it is you're not on a hill but you have a lot of this grimness 775 000 for that so a little pricey i think to be there for my opinion i don't know just if you're three acres is hard to get it is it's a lot so hard to get anywhere really you have to go to the middle of nowhere and that's where you end up with a lot of dirt you gotta live in new mexico yeah now things to do in this town if this is kind of cool that's weird i don't know why you do it but it's a funny fun

idea i guess the musical highway do you know about this shit no um in october 2014 the town um in october 2014 the town put uh made a two-lane stretch of what used to be highway 66 you know route 66 they they put grooves and shit and it rumble strips and grooves and arranged in a way to if you drive at exactly 45 miles an hour it sounds like america the beautiful it plays that basically it's the tune of america the beautiful over the wow over the things the engineering feat right to do that somebody somebody on that yeah i hope somebody had just a you know what there's a computer program it just totally does that it's super easy like that's the only way that would be acceptable otherwise they had a lot of people we just uh punch that into the uh computer generating uh paver and it just does it.

It just paves it automatically. We give it a salute and we send it on its way. So next, this was surprising for me to find. America, couldn't they pick a better song? I mean, well, I mean, that's a patriotic, I guess. It's a highway. And you're driving. It's like desert.

But if you have to drive exactly 45 to play it. Police control. Maybe you just play like I can't drive 55. That would be pretty funny. Carve that shit into the road. They weren't going for humor, unfortunately, Jimmy. This is why we should be running towns and not these fucking people. We'd be like, let's make it hilarious.

Yeah. Change it up every once in a while. They'd be like, was that baby got back? I feel like that was. What the hell are we, what happened? Keep paving and cutting and carving. That road would be closed more than it would be open for us changing the song and laughing like children on the side of the road. Every week I'm laying down a new track.

It would be hilarious. I found, based in Tejeras here, is the Italian Italian festivals of New Mexico, which you would not expect. Seven Italian guys? That's what I mean. They got to get together somehow. So mission statement for them on their website. Yeah.

To celebrate and promote Italian culture and heritage in New Mexico through special events, partnerships, and the annual New Mexico through special events, partnerships, and the annual New Mexico Italian Film and Culture Festival for the benefit of undeserved children. Jimmy, that's the whole thing here. It's all about the kids again.

Hey, it's for the kids. Oh, what do you think? I'm putting this in my pocket? You cheap fucking bastard. It's for the fucking kids. What's wrong with you? You want everything for free? It's for the fucking kids. What's wrong with you? You want everything for free? It's for the fucking children.

For Christ's sake. Tommy's standing right here and you're acting like a fucking jerk-off. Every time the Italians do something, it's for the kids. It's always for the children. Oh. It's a benefit to kids. Come on. That's unbelievable.

Primary programs, New Mexico Italian Film and Culture Festival, an annual multi-day celebration of Italian cinema and culture, a fundraising benefit for disadvantaged children. Population served, children and youth. Year founded 2010, all volunteer, and they do have 501c3 nonprofit status from the IRS. They do accept inquiries about volunteering. Well, you know, you can't just come up here. We'll take your application or whatever. We've got to make sure you're in it for the right reasons. Look it over and think it over.

It's for the kids. You know what I mean? It's what it's all about. And then the Albuquerque Dirt Fiesta. Ew. Which is every party in Albuquerque, isn't it? The Dirt Fiesta. Anything that happens in New Mexico is certainly a dirt fiesta.

It's a six-hour, 12-hour, and trail run. And it's biking, running, and family fun. And it's basically endurance bike races. A 5K, a 10K, or a 20K trail run they have. Wow, Jesus Christ. 90% single track loop that flows through the pine and oak trees. That sounds nice.

12.1 miles long, blah, blah, blah. The event is so awesome that we expect it to sell out, so sign up early for your free T-shirt and to be entered and to compete in the King and Queen of D fest competition my lady of dirt fest i bow before thee um wow that's incredible that's wild crime rate what we're interested here and and everything uh property crime is about 20 under the national average so it's pretty reasonably

safe not really stealing your shit very much. And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the amount Rushmore of crime, is about average. Slightly below, but not enough to really, nothing you're going to write a postcard and brag about. You know, it's one of those. I'm not going to be like, you're not posting about it. Look at us. We're so good. So that said, let us talk about a horrible murder that happened in this wonderfully scenic, terrible place.

Sponsored by Tide. Sponsored, exactly. So, July 24th, 1987, we have to go back to, which is a long damn time ago. It's been a minute. Jesus, it's been a minute. I found the number one movie in the box office. In 87? Was it?

July 24th, 87. Crocodile Dundee? It was not. It was RoboCop. Oh, yeah? Really? Yeah, that and the next week, RoboCop dominating. Unbelievable.

Just to give you an idea of where we are in the world. So on a less fun note than RoboCop, it's 10 a.m., July 24th, 1987. Police detectives have a suspect in the backseat. They're driving from Albuquerque through Tehras. Actually, it's not all police detectives. It's one Air Force police investigator, one albuquerque pd investigator yeah one nurse and our suspect are all in the car okay sounds like a bad joke go on it's it's exactly so all right an air force guy a pd guy uh what do we got here uh nurse and a murder suspect

yeah all them they all walk into a bar so they're all walking into a bar and a murder suspect. Yeah, all of them. They all walk into a bar. So they're all walking into a bar. And they're all driving. And they drive away from Albuquerque into the East Mountains on the I-40. Okay. They turn off onto the 14, which runs north of there and south of there. Or runs north of there. I think it used to run south of there. Now it's a totally different thing because now this is all, suburb type shit there's all developments and stuff this was just not like that

before it was a t intersection you make a left off this road and that's it and you go i can see till fucking texas in that direction and uh colorado up there yeah so they turn off they even go over a little cattle guard through gravel into the dirt, drive kind of off into the brush. This is a desolate location that for some reason that we'll talk about. We have these two police people, for lack of a better term, on both of them, and then a nurse and our murder suspect. Why are they driving her out there? and our murder suspect. Why are they driving her out there? Well, the car stops, and the suspect points to some juniper bushes off to the side of the road

and says, there. Wait there for a UPS truck delivering a box. I ordered my Amazon right here. What's in the box? Now it would be you could just order a head on Amazon, and it would come out there. I had it delivered. You wouldn't have to get somebody else. It's a big pain in the ass.

Just human head. Oh, there we go. Blonde lady. Perfect. There. I'll throw that in the box. Kevin's face. He's just checking his phone going, it's on its way.

It'll be here between 1045 and 1115. I'm tracking it right now. it right now so um the suspect here shot see that they wow um they tell about the the police about the um about the uh look over here in the juniper bushes and they get out and they walk over and they look under these bushes and they find a woman yeah there these bushes. And she's dead. And that's not the worst of it here. It appears that her abdomen has been cut open. There's a large incision in her abdomen. And that's as troubling as that is.

The even more troubling part is they see a frayed and, you know, ripped umbilical cord protruding from the wound. There used to be a baby. God damn it. And so, yeah, that's not something you want to find at 10 a.m. Yes. And when they lifted her up, underneath her, they found something. They find a broken piece of metal, which, when they look closer, it's a broken piece of a Krugerrand from South Africa. That's what they find under her. You're going to have to tell me more. What the fuck is a Krugerrand?

It's a coin. Oh, okay. It's a coin. Yeah, just a coin. It's a broken coin. Not a whole coin, but it's a Krugerrand from South Africa. I had to look it up, too, so don't feel bad. I was like, do they have those?

That's their currency. So there. That's that. That's the setup here. That's what they find. So how the fuck did that happen, and who is it, and what's going on? Well, let's backtrack a bit, and let's talk about a woman here. Let's talk about a woman named Darcy Kayleen Ricker.

She's born that way. She'll be Darcy Kayleen Pierce after she gets married. In 1987, she's 19 years old. She is born September 13th, 1967. And she has not the greatest start to her life in terms of stability her mother will say later on that um her mother is christine grace warm brought and she will say that um her her family has a history of mental illness uh first of all which isn't good uh she says it's like a it's a pretty it's a pretty rough one that's what i mean uh she said that uh uh she was forced by her

father at age 15 to give up uh young darcy that's that's her story that she was forced then uh she said she had darcy up for adoption she also said her father suffered from alcoholism and mental illness and that her grandfather, this is the mother's grandfather, spent more than 20 years institutionalized with schizophrenia. Jesus. Now, that is, though, that's we're talking in the 1930s. So who the hell knows what he actually had and, you know, who could have had anything. And they had had no medication back then so they were just like i don't know i guess put them in a room yeah with other people that don't know that are a couple of those people were diagnosed uh clinically as being an idiot yeah yeah which

you know what i'm not we could probably i would love probably? You know how many fucking idiots are out there? I would love it if you had to have a medical fucking. You are a fucking idiot. An idiot. It says so right. Let me see your driver's license. There's a little fucking circled I up in the right corner. Idiot.

Morons, too. There were morons too there were more on your actions yeah i don't even mean your iq or your your abilities your whatever the hell that is i want to know your actions let me look at your facebook feed or your goddamn instagram and i'll tell you right now what your shit is and if you're an idiot very easy instead of a blue check mark you would have a little blue eye. That's it. You're an idiot. That way, whenever you post something, people go, oh my God, that's an idiot posted. Never mind. You keep going.

That's a nonsense person. That's a nonsense person. It's a non-serious person that tries to say things for attention. That's an idiot. That's what we're getting at. Oh, we could scroll right past that.'re an idiot we need it get on it zuckerberg you fucking nerd fuck zuckerberg no this has to be we all have to come together for this fine i'll do it i'll tell you whether they're idiots or not fine i'll be the one if you want jimmy the two of us and i think the two of us

should do it and we'll wait. We'll weigh it carefully. It's a lot of responsibility to have on our shoulders, but if I'm being honest, I think we're up for the challenge. That's what I'm going to say. We're honored by your nomination to begin with and we're going to take this seriously. Sometimes we'll be wrong. Sometimes it will be something unbelievably brilliant. And you know what? i'll take that bullet i'll jump on that grenade sometimes but we'll call a smart person an idiot we'll happily call ourselves idiots that's the thing so that's don't be so sensitive we're idiots too that's the problem suck it up so she's welcome to the small town of chinook where faith

runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and

Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife.

Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast.

Listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast. Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky and part comedy.

The stories we cover are well researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Jesus Christ. Back to Darcy and her mom. Darcy's mom said she gave birth to Darcy at a home for unwed mothers in Portland in 1967. She says, quote, I bonded with her.

I cared for her 11 days until being, the way she put it, coerced by her father into giving up the baby yikes she said quote he said it would be very a very evil thing for me to keep her that if i really loved her i'd give her up she said i had nothing to give her but love so i chose to give her up for adoption so he was like you're embarrassing the family what are you doing you got no yeah that's probably what it was now that's one story okay that it was an adoption and she was forced to give her up and i mean that's sad but it's also a little bit might be sugarcoating it because another story here is that uh she was given away at 11 days there's always 11 days that That's the day. But she was given away by her grandfather, the mother's father who wanted her to give it away, gave her away. He was a door-to-door pots-and-pan salesman.

Yikes. Door-to-door pots-and-pan salesman. He went to a family's house and ended up giving the baby to them. Not sold it. They were like trying to have kids or they couldn't have kids or whatever it was. And he's like, you know what? You're not interested in my saute and saucepan combo. But you know what I do have for you?

Yeah. A healthy, young, white, female baby. What do you think of that? You know, that was like the, because it's 1967. So they would have definitely asked. Not a panacea have definitely asked, what does it look like? Um, yeah, 67, somebody would have been like, well, what's it look like there? So how long as a salesman, do you have to stand in front of somebody like the game is to find out their needs, you know what I mean? And then you, you make your product fit their needs. And when your pots and pans don't fill that we need a baby hole you've got a baby you got a baby hole

that's perfect my question is too how many pots and pans do you think that's worth buying because if you're trying to have a kid he's like i'll give you a baby you can't just be like awesome i'm not interested in your pots and pans so you you have to at least buy a set, right? Yeah. Just one set or like a, you know, a couple of. Heard your wife say that you guys can't have kids. If you buy this set and this set and this set and you know everything else in my fucking trunk, I'll give you a baby.

It comes with a baby. I'll go get her right now. If you act now. Yeah. So she is given up for adoption at this point. Well, we'll say given to the Rickers, this family called the Rickers. That's their last name, Ricker. Now she's given away there. Her father is new for, you know, adoptive father, I guess, is very involved in the Lutheran church. and her mother is a bookkeeper who makes extra money by baking elaborate wedding cakes at home and taking care of, she's like a babysitter. She's like a babysitter in her house, and she's making big cakes while the kids are around. Way ahead of her time.

Today, she would be making millions. She'd be crushing it on Instagram right now. Absolutely destroying life. Wrecking shit. Her husband goes to work every day and punches the clock and makes a third of the money she makes oh yeah no he wouldn't she'd be making fucking four million dollars a year right now he'd be like i'm retired i just eat cake a lot that's what i do i'll tell you what she makes a cake and i fucking eat it boy that's what i do it's good

too where do you think all these cakes from instagram are going they're going in my stomach feller that's what i'm talking about we left the church matter of fact we pray to instagram that's a it's just too far and they ain't got no cakes there and be honest with you i like they frown upon so i bring a slice in like who cares you know what i mean but it's around so oh heavenly app thank you so much for this food you have laying at my table especially her father works the night shift driving a forklift oh her adoptive father so yeah he would love to quit that job yeah um she does not like her adoptive mother and we'll talk about that she does like taking care of the kids that the adoptive mother watches sure loves that a lot she said uh uh this is um one of her uh one of her uh somebody

in the family said quote when she was uh of course i'm sorry darcy took her role as mother's helper very seriously she wasn't much older than the children she had to take care of but she liked it she liked hanging out with the kids she hated her mother though because uh she would call her mother fat and she didn't like her is what she said. Well, that's the people that make the best cakes. I'm sorry. I mean, what do you want? You know what I'm saying?

Her mother is Sandra Ricker. That's their adoptive mother. She said that her daughter didn't like her. This is her from out of her mouth. Her daughter didn't like her. And also she said Darcy was ashamed of her because she was fat it was like she didn't want her friends to see me because i was fat and she said this is her words not mine i wasn't like yeah she's a fat pig she said i was fat and she didn't want her friends

around she said this is this is sad actually from sandra i would hate for a mother to feel like this horrible quote darcy and i had a lot of conflict dar Darcy did not like fat people, and I was always a fat, ugly person. Oh, Jesus. This poor fucking woman. My daughter hates me, and I think I'm hideous. That's a horrible, poor woman. And she makes these joyous cakes. It's just a real, it's such a weird irony.

It's strange. She says she's sobbing as she gives them to you. Right. Here you go. Congratulations. I'm so sorry I look like this. I'm sorry. I'll get out of here before you don't want to marry each other anymore.

Because I know you won't want to have sex after looking at this. Like this poor woman. Jesus, I feel so bad for her. She says, quote, in my opinion, I did not suit her as to what she thought I should be. Yeah. She also says that Darcy used to lie a lot as a child as well. Big liar. Yeah.

As they did. Yeah. She said to some people, she would make them think that she was mistreated because she lived with a fat, ugly monster. Good God. This poor woman, Sandra,

if you are still alive and you're out there, yeah, I will come to the show. And if wherever you live, there, come to the show and wherever you live. If I come to the near, we'll give you a hug. I feel terrible. This is awful. You poor woman. This sucks.

You sound like a nice lady. You're just, you've been besmirched by somebody who saved her life for Christ's sake. God damn. She also went on to say, quote, she was always ashamed of our house. I think she liked to tell people that she lived in a better house. So, you know, count your blessings. Yeah, you live in a house. That's great.

You were born to a mom, an unwed mother and whose family made you made her give you away. Be thankful that somebody that has a house is willing to help and has cake. Yeah. You got the house. There's cake in it. there was no cake in my house growing up you have cake laying around everywhere i know my mom was a terrible cook look at my 40th birthday cake it was a piece of shit that's what i'm saying it's yeah there's no you're either a cake house or a non-cake house there's no non-cakecake house. No one's baking cake. My mother would have been like, I'm not baking shit. I'm not a baker. So not working.

You're lucky. You have a house with cakes in it. So she also said that her brother, her adopted brother, we'll just say her brother, her old family's gone. So this is all her family now her brother the mother said that darcy hated her brother's fiance when she was uh getting older because she was pregnant her brother's fiance and wanted to put the baby up for adoption wow so darcy was very mad at her for that yeah the mother said quote darcy hated marianne to her you give away cats and dogs you do not give away babies so that was that was that because she didn't she was given away you think she'd be a pro-adoption because

her life I think so yeah but no she's mad at her situation so uh she went to the LaSalle school which was uh she was only it was a catholic school apparently and she was one of the few non-catholics to go there. And she actually helped pay her tuition by working at night in a fast food joint as well. Jesus. Yeah, Darcy's a go-getter. Yeah, she's a go-getter. Also fast food and a local store as well, a small store. So she ends up meeting a guy named Raymond Pierce, and they went to different high schools and all that sort of thing.

They met at a Rotary Club outing. Oh. Sweet. In Portland. Yeah, in Portland, Oregon. Is that what the Rotary Club is? It's a dating service? I don't know what the fuck they do.

I believe it is. You rotate until you find the person. You get two circles of circles, and then you rotate to each person. It's like speed dating, but in a circle. There's no tables. I believe that's what it is. I mean, don't quote me. Could be that.

So I met her there. Now, he over here, old Raymond, Ray is an Eagle Scout, literally an Eagle Scout. Unbelievable. Has a job at a hobby shop, and he plans to join the Air Force. Okay. That's this guy. Yeah. He's a square guy.

They're in Portland in the mid-'80s and being very square. They met, like I said, 1984. They date on and off for a little while. And in about early-'85, they start to live together after that. And, yeah, Ray's a's a good looking guy he's tall he's you know handsome and she's considered very pretty as well i've seen pictures of her too very pretty everybody's uh everybody's attractive in this story beautiful couple very odd every person we talk about is attractive in this story they're all very nice looking which doesn't matter at all

in a murder story obviously but it's just strange in our stories remember last week we had shrek right we had an ogre with a scottish accent a monster a horrible face and country dick yeah it was very strange but this is a different kind of a case this is a very photogenic murder so terrible but just photogenic as shit now raymond pierce like we said uh he's doing his thing she ends up moving out of the house before she even finishes high school she stays in the school but she moves out and moves in with ray who's like a year older than her and had his own place and um her parents don't even attend her high school graduation. So she just wants nothing to do with them, basically. Moves out while still in school, and she's like, yeah, I'll graduate sometime in June,

and just doesn't even bother to get them into it. It's very strange. So they move into a duplex on the southeast side of Portland in May of 1985 together. This is their first place together. Darcy told the landlady she just graduated from school. She graduated in Milwaukee, Oregon, which is outside of Portland, and that she and Ray planned to get married soon. That was the whole plan.

Sure. And at the time, Darcy's still working for the fast food place, and Ray worked at a radio station. Hell yeah. I don't know if he's doing like drive time DJing or if he's, you know, an engineer. Yeah, or promotions or who knows what he's doing. Handing out bumper stickers.

That's back in the day when like radio stations were like a legit thing that made money and they weren't just like some shell of a, you know, radio stations have a hard time making money now. It's not the same. Why would you? You gotta have at least one unbelievable show that does really really well and you have to want to listen to it when it's on rather than whenever you feel like it if you could get and with podcasts too you can

get such whatever you want i'd like a show about this specific niche of a thing there's one out there and you can listen to it anytime you feel like it. Isn't it crazy that radio is this enormous thing? I mean, it was a giant industry. There's maybe 15 people that made a name for themselves out of it. Isn't that nuts?

Other people just worked and made a good living their whole life. That happened a lot. 15 personalities came out of that between casey casem and i mean worldwide you got like 15 people that you would recognize their name that's right you're right actually you're absolutely right so that's fucking weird out of this giant but you don't see their faces so yeah yeah but tough but you you gain such a personality and a personal connection with them when you listen for so long that you eventually find out what they look like yeah well like a lot of the first tv people that's where they got them from was radio because no there was no one who had television experience that was the closest thing

right you need somebody to broadcast and talk right yeah most of those guys think milton burrell was a big radio guy before that he was like the big first big star of television he was the reason why televisions were fucking being bought then they got him on tv and they were like is that a huge cock in his pants i see that's just very hold on shoot him from like belt line up because his cock can you get a silhouette of that i swear that's a dick wow that is a large cock so back to them uh darcy's working at a fast food restaurant like i said ray works at the radio station doing god knows what possibly something with somebody's penis we don't know so their landlord in the duplex we have no idea says quote they were a very nice couple she was a lovely girl and very thin at Very thin. She wore a Krugerrand necklace. Oh.

A necklace with a Krugerrand on it. But they got on a trip to South Africa. Wow. She always had it on. Never didn't have the Krugerrand necklace on. Okay? So there's that. She wasn't even 20 and she'd been to South Africa.

Yeah. Her and Raymond went on a trip together to South Africa. Now, once they move in, Darcy immediately began putting on weight. Once she gets here, she starts wearing baggy clothes, her landlady said, and she ends up quitting

her job at the restaurant to start to work in the sports department of G.I. Joe's. How the fuck did they not get sued for that honestly why that's not a that's why that's not a store anymore i'm sure it was called gi joe's which is definitely trademarked you can't do that as we know so uh the it's it's wild so the what the hell is that joe's is that like's. Mickey Mouse's call it. I don't give a fuck. Who cares?

Call it that. Is it a department store and she works in the sporting goods? It's a variety store, so that sounds like probably Walmart, Target, shit like that. I suppose. Called G.I. Joe's.

Called G.I. Joe's. Oh, boy. So the assistant store manager said that Darcy was pregnant while she was employed there and said that, quote, she was a good employee and was liked by everybody here. And she said that about eight to 10 months after she moved to the area, she worked there for a few months and she was getting pregnant. Like we said, she was pregnant and she was getting bigger, took a maternity leave and went to another job and all that. But after a few months, she had a miscarriage.

Very obviously, it's terrible. She was they were both very excited about the baby and wasn't like, oh, shit, we're having this baby like she wants a baby bad. She was all excited about it. So she her friend or the her co-worker there said she knew a lot about the medical terms uh she said her body didn't supply nourishment to the baby and it starved to death basically which is what happens uh sometimes she said she didn't know uh the woman didn't know how far along she was but she said quote about darcy quote she was quite upset about it but she said oh well there'll be other babies like the landl, oh, well, there'll be other babies,

like the landlady said. She was like, there'll be other times. I'm young. I'm young. I'm healthy. This is just trying to stay positive, she said. She had physical problems, too, during this that could have helped. She had an ovarian cyst at one point. So they said that might have been a factor. And she really, really, though, had a tough time with the miscarriage. She tried to stay positive on the outside. She was telling people, well, there'll be other chances. And then she took it hard, though. It's tough to take, man.

It's tough to take, especially if you're young and it's your first baby and you really wanted it bad. And you weren't like, obviously, it doesn't matter. I'm not saying that otherwise you don't care but if you have four kids and you're 38 years old and it happens you might go i'm very sad but then five years from then you're gonna go wow that was a fucking i mean i i know it's bad to say but everyone's gonna be thinking it yeah you know what i mean that could have been tough yeah if you were like struggling to pay your bills and you have you know kids ranging from 6 to 17 or some shit and you're're like, oh, my God, how the fuck can I pay my car payment? 57 at a goddamn high school graduation?

Yeah, that's a different—obviously, you're still sad, but it's not the same. So now after the miscarriage, she—this is very weird. Her older brother, Craig, and his wife, Mary—remember the one who were going to give the baby up for adoption, who she couldn't stand? Well, they had an apartment next door to Ray and Darcy. They made up. They made up. Yeah, they live right next door. Or it's super fucking contentious around here.

Just super awkward, banging on the wall. Shut up over there. Shut up, Craig. You even know his name. Usually don't yell at your neighbors by name. Yeah. Shut up, Craig. You even know his name. Usually don't yell at your neighbors by name. Yeah. Shut up, baby donator. Yeah.

Goodwill your baby. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah, real nice. Good job. Did you put it in the night slot or did you just wait until they opened at 7 in the morning? So they lived in an apartment next door, and they just had their first child. Oh. So it just happened.

Yeah. And they're going to keep this child and everything like that. So Darcy, wow, Darcy said that she wanted to help raise it. She wanted to, quote, share the baby with them. Okay. Share it. I don't know how you share a baby with them. Okay. Share it. I don't know how you share a baby. You can't.

You don't. They're their parents. They had a baby. They're both there. You don't share it with them. What is that? You had a baby? Oh, can I share?

Can I have half? No, you can't have half. That's not going to work. You going to need all that baby? It's odd. All of that baby? It's a pretty fat baby. So she said that she even wanted to nurse the baby no what are you talking about um wow uh they said

no the brother craig and marianne said no uh and the landlord said there was quote there was bad blood between them so they weren't even like getting along great and now she's like share your baby with me which is weird they said the landlady said that they were still on bad terms when finally when darcy and ray moved out at the end of 1986 they were still on bad terms over this whole thing but the landlady said quote the worst i can say about darcy is that in my opinion she was obsessed by motherhood so she said she was sad and she just got locked into this thing where you know yeah it's just that happens I get it on the outside looking in it it's pretty rad to be a parent and then you're a dad and then you're like

I wish I wish I was just looking in I mean it's also good but at the same time yeah I mean you're in certain situations don't warrant itself to being a good parent or enjoying parenthood or childhood or anything else. I'm still waiting on the moment where I go, this was all worth it. Yeah, this is all worth it. She and Darcy, by the way, too, she's had a, you know, her life isn't good as well. I didn't mention this earlier, but I should mention this as well. She became like she was very a neighbor kid had did some sexual things with her when she was at a young age. Somebody of similar age.

Not like a 15 year old, but like, you know, a seven year old when she was six. not like a 15 year old but like you know a seven year old when she was six still weird and then she ended up at around seven having of her volition that she uh started a sexual relationship with her young cousin that was around the same age a sexual like a child sexual relationship they had for like years the two of them uh which is a a strange uh thing because one was abused obviously and then that they don't know any better and when they're six seven so they pass the abuse along down the line and that's a they say abuse has exponential growth because you know half the time you're creating more abusers half the time not it's just scientific those are the facts so it's what it. Those are the facts. So it's,

it's, it's fucking horrible. So, and it's even sadder when it's a kid on kid and it's not even, because that means someone did something to that cousin or that kid that the neighbor kid that got at her, he didn't just come up with that on his own. Someone did some shit to him for a six,

seven year old to have the idea to do that to somebody else. It's horrible. Yeah. Cause yeah, you have to, and imagining is no fun. No. You know what I mean? Imagine who taught that kid what to look at. Pardon?

Yeah. God damn it. I hate it. And because of this, in her mind, too, she was very much like adult before other people were. She physically developed early as well, too, which also added to it as well. But she's doing better by now. The landlady said, quote, Darcy wanted to nurse that baby and possess it, which is wild. They end up moving out.

baby and possess it which is wild uh they end up moving out the landlady said when they moved out they quote left their apartment immaculate she says she said quote i told them they could come back anytime they wanted to they were great tenants so nice people i wanted to give you that background because at this point seems like she's really turned her life into something positive you know what i mean and is doing well and uh you know that's why i wanted to give you the background on her to you know be fair of how long far she's come she's got a lot of yeah demons between being given away you know and everything else sexual abuse yeah sexual abuse yeah the whole thing it's send her down some paths that she should

by all accounts she should never have had to deal with any of this no no but i mean she could very very easily be you know the local barfly drunk drowning her sorrows and nobody would blame her a drop yeah they'd go oh man you don't know about her life so you know so anyway she um they end up moving out and at that point she reports to her sister-in-law once they move out that guess what i'm pregnant again so no need to share the baby so congratulations darcy and ray and the baby she said is due um later on she'll say the baby's due in july uh the time, she didn't know exactly how far she was. So she moves to Albuquerque. That's where they end up moving down to Albuquerque because he joins the Air Force.

There you go. So they end up they end up in Albuquerque. So December 86, she's very excited. She's pregnant. She announces it. Ray's very excited. So excited. Drops to one knee. Ask her to marry him. She's thrilled with this. She it. Ray's very excited. So excited. Drops to one knee.

Ask her to marry him. All right. She's thrilled with this. She can't wait to get married. They get married right away in like January of 87. They get married. And, you know, she's pregnant. It's what she's always wanted at this point. She's got her.

This is what she's been focusing on. She's she said, too, since she met Ray, she was like, this is my guy. You know, he's going to be stable. He's going to be a good father. And this is what I want. So it's all good. In 86, I'm sorry. Now, 87, they're in New Mexico in January.

And Raymond enlists in the Air Force on January 15th in Portland. 15th in Portland and then that's they end up moving down to Albuquerque because his training was 12 weeks at Lackland Air Force Base in San uh it's San in San Antonio in Texas and then uh then he ends up going to Biloxi and then finally a sir uh assigned to Kirtland which is in Albuquerque. So that's where we are. And now they go look for a car in July 15th-ish, 1987. So remember the beginning was July 24th. July 15th-ish, 1987. The sales manager said they were in there. It was an Acura dealership. So Rob Moore is his name

at montano acura so they're looking for one of those hot late 80s integras those are pretty cool yeah the pop-up lights yeah those are badass so uh did they pop they did yeah you're right the little round pop-ups they were cool i had uh i had a 90 and it did not have it it had the bars the bar lights oh yeah Those are still cool car. Yeah. Those are fucking cool, man. Those are badass back then.

Not bad. So he said they were in there. She was pregnant. She was, um, you know, resting her hands on her top of her belly and being like protective. He said that quote,

I asked her when she was due and she said a week or two. And, uh, he said she seemed to be just glowing and couldn't be happier. You know, all that sort of thing. Problem is, though, that on her due date in 87, which was originally in May. Yeah. She told everybody her due date is in May.

She got to work. And when May comes around she tells her co-workers that she had a stillborn oh okay and he and then she asked her husband to back her up why and he said no i'm not telling you i'm not lying to your friends that you have a still had a stillborn baby that's ridiculous you know you're you're still you're pregnant why would you say that to them you know and why would you know if it was yeah that's what. You know, you're still pregnant. Why would you say that to them? Why would you jinx this? Yeah, that's what I mean. So he didn't know if it was to leave her job or whatever.

But either way, she said her due date was May. Then after the move to Albuquerque, all of a sudden the due date shifted from May to July 16th. That's a long time. That's a long time. That's a bad doctor with some shit estimates. That's not good um by july by the time july 16th when they're looking for an acura comes around she's been wearing maternity clothes for 14 months okay 14 months that's the longest uh molt ever do i have to say

she's not pregnant no you don't i think we get it yeah she's not pregnant? No, you don't. I think we get it. Yeah, she's not pregnant. Her husband thinks she's pregnant, and everybody thinks she's pregnant, but she's not pregnant. Her lying hasn't stopped. She's putting her hands on her belly. She's got maternity clothes on. She's not pregnant. So that's in July. So July 23rd, 1987 comes around, and this is the day before our beginning. 23rd, 1987 comes around.

And this is the day before our beginning. And let's talk about another young lady, Cindy Lynn Giles, who at the time is Cindy Lynn Ray. She's married. Her maiden name is Giles. She has had a nice life as well. She grew up in Payson, Utah. She went to Payson High School in Utah. Yeah, she's doing nice. She met her husband in high school they were both in the

marching band together oh yeah he was a drummer and she uh was playing the cymbals so i mean come on drums need cymbals marriage made in heaven you know what i'm saying drums need cymbals everybody what the fuck man it's a sign like we should definitely go together we go together it's like you're chocolate and i'm peanut butter what are we talking about here but i mean in comparison of like skill and talent like he's rocking out the drums and then she just goes crash yeah that's what they give like the kid who joined the band three days before the performance or like if someone's doing like a bar show a band and they have like their girlfriend play the tambourine just fucking shake that around it won't affect

much i don't know whatever they give her the salt shaker to play i can't wait for the tweets from people going i played cymbals really hard actually don't care we've all seen the joke where i think it was an old commercial where a guy there was like a philharmonic playing like a whole big orchestra and you see some guy in a tuxedo and he's like eating a sandwich or a slice of pizza or something he checks his watch and he's like oh shit and he runs all the way back there just in time to pick the cymbals up and go at the end and he's like yay but he was like eating dinner through the whole thing he wasn't even wasn't even in there. So, yeah. He's over there like Nick Cannon drumlining with the back of the stick and going crazy.

And then she just goes. We don't know what kind of beats they were playing, though. Maybe it was cymbal heavy. Yeah. Maybe it was just like. Maybe she had like. Maybe he just does the drum roll uh intro for her to play the shit out of those symbols solo those symbols we don't know this is there a solo

i think you get a symbol solo if you and only the seniors probably right at homecoming maybe let it fly seniors symbol solos let's go it's very strange yeah so uh but they got along really well he liked her she's a real honest she's a real honest nice sweet pretty can't say enough about you know smart you know got her head on her shoulders nothing bad to say about Cindy. She's like 5'3", petite, and he really digs her. So by April of 1983, they get married, and they were stationed.

He joins the Air Force, and they were stationed in Germany. And his job was to, I guess, protect American personnel against terrorist attacks. Sick. And that and his job was to uh i guess protect american personnel against terrorist attacks and that was his job there and he uh she said she was very scared the whole time they were there yeah and then they moved to albuquerque and she felt better and safer just because she was back on her home turf you know so they move into a trailer here um this is in in albuquerque yeah about four miles from the base uh they had a son luke who was about two years old he was born over in germany cool so that's pretty neat and uh so they she is eight and a half months pregnant uh and on july 23rd with baby she's expect she's expressed baby number two she's expecting a daughter and uh she's already got the name picked out.

She's going to be baby Amelia. She's going to call her Millie. She's jacked up. She's got it all planned. She's going with Air Force names. You know what I'm talking about? Amelia, like Airheart, and Luke, like the guy that Luke Air Force Base is named after. There you go.

That's what they're doing. That's cool. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal.

Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott?

From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. That's, yeah, that's her, that's her, that's her jam. Yeah.

So she would visit the Kirkland Ambulatory. I wanted to say Kirkland like the Costco brand. It wouldn't come out as Kirtland. Kirtland Ambulatory Care Clinic. She'd go once a month. So when she got there, just to check on the baby, she was very healthy. She didn't drink. She's a devout Mormon as well, her and her husband.

So they're as straight arrow as it goes. When she gets a checkup later on, they have her take as straight arrow as it goes um when she gets a checkup later on like they have her take a couple of sips of a soda of a coke so it'll stimulate the fetus because she never has caffeine really it's fucking interesting yeah to get the baby to get a good look at him there so they jack him up with uh baby yeah that's what they do just get a little bump in him. That's all he needs. So they're doing great, though.

Thursday, July 23rd of 1987 is her last appointment. She has scheduled her prenatal checkups always for her husband's day off. He said, I always try to go with her, but then they changed my shift, so he couldn't make the July 23rd one, that appointment. He bicycled to work that day. By the way, July 23rd, swelteringly hot day that day. Yeah. Like record heat down there. It's a fucking desert of Albuquerque, and he's on a bicycle.

It's humid, too, there, they said that day. It's just nasty. He bicycles to work so he can leave her the chevy blazer so she can go pick up her tupperware because she sells tupperware remember when that was a thing in the 80s yeah some somebody's mom would bring tupperware over to your house and just sell it to you it's the weirdest shit in the world now you just oh i need containers i'll just order them back then it was like up i gotta call margie again because i'm out of i need some more of those things that party is yeah i'm gonna have to shit i gotta put this away i where's margie's

number this is rough we've just been throwing shit out because we don't have any tupperware she was holding tupperware parties left and right yeah and then they do the orders and she would she needed to fulfill some of the orders and drop some tupperware off here she planned to pick up items that people had ordered drop them off uh she drops the kid off the two-year-old luke with the babysitter and goes to the clinic um now she always wears her garments yeah she's mormon she wears the garments if you're if you're not from america if you're well if americans kind of know some stuff about mormons not a lot yeah you know but i mean leave some certain south park episodes they know enough to where not saying that that's accurate but they know they know about garments are you telling us

now james that south park is your encyclopedia no no i'm saying i'm trying to say who they have a lot of things about mormons everything james knows about the world he learned from cartoons you got cartoons only cartoon no i just that's that that got me though like i think i'm trying to think of like a pop culture mormon thing and there's like that and then there's then there's all the ones where they have seven wives so there's really and when you find out about them uh you because you hear we hear it from people like me and you, like people that are not Mormon. You know what I mean? If you ask a Mormon for clarification or confirmation about this shit, they want to talk nothing about it.

It's like you asked them about their lace thong. It's a long-sleeve fucking weird thing. Tell me about it. I'm fascinated. Well, yeah, and it's supposed to protect you from all sorts of harm. Bullets. Bullets. Stabbings. Fire. Fire. well yeah it's and it's supposed to protect you from all sorts of harm you know bullets stabbings fire yeah fire right um it's like an underwear shirt deal everything if you wear these these protect you in the mormon religion so she always wears them yeah um but she did not wear

um she she'd received them after her wedding ceremony. That's where she was given her garments. Like, she's serious shit here. And she said that she was in a hurry to leave, and she just stuffed them in her purse because she didn't put them on because she also at the hospital was just kind of... I got to take these off for you to do my checkup. And she didn't want to talk about it either because, you know, people might ask her about it.

She wasn't into that. So she parks the car, the Blazer, near the clinic door, goes inside, gets her, here's the heart, here's the whole deal, doing a prenatal check. Yeah, she's very happy. She's due to give birth in two weeks, but she's tired. Her iron is low, and she's not doing too well. So that's when she has a little bit of coke she takes a few sips of coke to stimulate the fetus and all that sort of shit she had a fetal monitor on her uh because she was having some problems it was held on by like a pink belt there like kind of around her waist around her stomach stomach. And yeah, all that shit.

She had a midwife. She was all ready to go. Now, outside the clinic, while this is going on, Darcy Pierce pulls into the next parking lot. She has a dirty, shitty old Volkswagen Beetle. She parks next to this. It's a cherry red Chevy Blazer that's pretty new. She parks her shitty old Beetle next to it and very hot.

She's in a big white maternity house coat with blue vertical stripes. A big giant. Yeah. Hot. Yeah, real hot for Darcy here. And, you know, she's got a big stomach, it looks like, and it looks like everyone thinks she's got an overdue baby. So Darcy, after going in there, they say, well, we're going to induce your pregnancy. She has an appointment now at 5 p.m. to go to the University of New Mexico Hospital, and they're going to induce labor.

So Darcy, or I'm sorry, Cindy is ready to go. With this prenatal check, she's going in there. That's what happened with my first daughter, too. She was due like the next week. We went in for a checkup and they were like oh no we're doing this now wow blood pressure issue basically it was like my ex was like yeah well we gotta do this you're gonna have a stroke and die so right let's let's do this so they ended up doing this yeah that's a good time yeah my my daughter was born in the neonatal unit of the hospital of like scary as the scary as fuck you never want to go there

unit it was scary it wasn't good at all your first baby's supposed to be like a happy moment and you're like no no no we were terrified ptsd from it terrified it was absolutely terrifying they were like oh yeah her and the baby could die it was like oh my god what the fuck thank you yeah great this is horrible i did nothing fun of oh you're ready to go i got the bags packed none of that shit it was just get in the back seat and i'll drive careful yeah it was um i'm not gonna be at work today because uh they all might die i have to i'm sorry i have to go it was a disaster so um anyway yeah you're supposed to go there and um now everything is ready to go she's got her nursery everything's going now outside the

clinic while they're deciding all this darcy gets out of her car and a witness said that she they saw darcy outside the air force base clinic, walking around. And this person, Edmund Goodsell, said, quote, the only person I saw was a woman. She was not too far from the clinic's door and walking back and forth. And he said that he noticed, another woman said that she noticed a woman parked very close to my car, and it was a very hot day. I could not understand why she would not be inside in the air conditioning why is she walking back and forth in the heat so um darcy uh yeah darcy knows she's not pregnant but she's gotta basically her baby's due in the next like week so she's got

to come up with a baby yeah she's because her husband thinks there's a baby. She's due in the next eight weeks ago. Yeah. She's due in the next six months ago. Right. Never mind, or five months ago. So she, I'm sorry, Cindy was going next week for it. Darcy has an inducement scheduled. So Darcy has gotten to the point of scheduling an inducement. Okay. Okay. So it's two o'clock in the afternoon. By 5 p.m., she's got to have either a baby or be in the hospital ready to have a baby that she doesn't have in her.

So this is a problem at this point. She's over there eating food. I'm going to have a food baby at least. Something. So 23-year-old Cindy Ray at this point walks out of the clinic here. And we'll get back to what happens to her in a second. Now, a little while later, her husband gets off of work at 3.30. He walks to the clinic in the heat to see if Cindy was still there.

And the blazer still in the parking lot. So he went in and said, oh, where's my wife? And a nurse told him, quote, you just missed her. She just left not five minutes ago. So he looked all around the building, thought maybe she ran into somebody she knew. Yeah. Whatever. But couldn't find her.

No one knew where she was. They all said she left. So he went to the truck and he was like, okay. And so he left and he went and walked and picked up his son Luke from the babysitter and went home. And he said, quote, it didn't make any sense, but he's an Air Force police officer, by the way. So he's an MP here. I don't know what they're called in the Air Force. Is he still an MP?

It's got to be an MP, right? It's still just military police. Someone will tell us. Don't worry. What are they, sky cops? Is that what they are? Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, that's what you are.. Someone will tell us. Don't worry. What are they, sky cops? Is that what they are? Maybe. Yeah, that's what you are.

Cloud cops. Cloud force. That's what you want to be called. Cloud force. We're here to investigate. He said, but I was a trained police officer, and I went through all the logical things at first. After a while, the options started making less and less sense, but they were all I had.

Why would his eight-and-a-half- half month pregnant wife who's not moving around so well and iron deficient go anywhere without her car on a hot day yeah it just doesn't make any sense shouldn't be walking shouldn't be walking so uh he said people thought she was still there but she had just left i couldn't have missed her by more than five minutes so he waited 45 minutes before he did that he picked up luke and he said afterward quote i went back to the clinic i looked everywhere i went back to my own office to see if we had crossed paths and missed each other it wasn't like her to disappear she left the clinic between 2 30 and 3 30 p.m uh and um anyway where is she she is in the car with darcy okay in the bug darcy darcy pulled a gun on her oh god and said is in the car with Darcy. Okay. In the bug? Darcy pulled a gun on her.

Oh, God. And said, get in the car, sweetheart, and forced her into the Volkswagen bug. Wow. First of all, she's eight and a half months pregnant, and I guarantee you that bug has no air conditioning. Not a drop. So she's in this piece of shit Beetle in a 100-degree day driving through the desert with this lunatic. They are a hot box james yep they drive east on the 40 and they drive all the way to 14 and turn off and they turn off go over a cattle grate go over all of that shit up a winding mountain road

all over this gravel you name it and uh desolate spot spot here It's all juniper and pinion and scrub oaks and all that shit. It's desert shit. And they stopped the car. And wow, this is crazy. So there's a guy named Theron Hartshorn. He's a stockroom supervisor at an Albuquerque wallboard company. Yeah, exciting. He leaves work, drives a Chevy pickup into the mountains, and he goes the same route as them onto a U.S. Forest Service lane where he was building a house.

Yeah. This is before. It's probably worth 20 times what he built it for now. Right. He's building a house. He lived about 15 minutes away from Tahiris, and he turns onto the road about 4 p.m. A quarter mile past the cattle guard, he said he sees an off-white Volkswagen in the road facing him with both doors open, which is obviously odd. He got out and he got close to it, to one of the doors.

And he said suddenly a woman popped out from the junipers on his left, like scared the shit out of him, popped out. And she was straightening out her dress yeah and said quote my friend and i need to be alone so he's like oh good for you girl exactly he said i thought she was with a guy back there i thought she was getting it on you know they couldn't they couldn't wait anymore they pulled off the side of the road hey more power to you he didn't care his response is fine i just need to get by so you can move your car off the side of the road you get fucking all you want i just i got a house going up over here so you know you don't see why i hate new mexico that is not odd behavior no that's normal to for people to fucking a juniper off the road so my friend and i gotta be alone all right i just

want to get by yeah no okay so several times she said three or four times my friend and i need to be alone my friend and i need to be alone that's what she kept saying not in a different wording same wording he closed the door and drove by and just all i wanted you to do is close the door do whatever you want just closing your door and I'm driving by. He said that, yeah, whatever. So he drives by and as he drove by, he glanced back and he saw there was another woman there lying on her back. So he went, oh, damn. Yeah.

Look at that. Make a U-turn, have a gander. He saw the woman in the white dress going back toward her and he said, oh, it's two women messing around. He was like, look at this shit. Like, damn. He was like, well, whatever. Like, he drove away like, I'm going to rent that later. You know, I'm going to stop at the video store.

Get me some female desert on desert female on action on each other vagina action right here. Those two are going to win Dirt Queen this year year that's for sure dirt queen and queen yeah so this is the manzano mountains um they're while this is going on um right after right before he drove up the women had struggled with each other and problem is cindy's not much of a match for darcy even though darcy's small cindy if you're ready to give birth you have no center of like like you can't, you can be pushed over by the wind. Weevil wobbles a little, but they don't fall down. It's tough.

Yeah, you don't have a, you're not meant to be fighting at that point in time. So Darcy ends up hitting Cindy in the head, they think with possibly a small rock to stun her. And then she pulls the elastic fetal monitoring belt off of her. The fetal monitor that's on her pulls it off of her, wraps it around Cindy's neck and strangles her until she passes out with her own fetal monitor. She passes out.

This is all before the man got here. At this point, She passes out. This is all before the man got here. At this point, she drags Darcy's unconscious self off the road through some tall grass and into the juniper trees. That's when the guy came up and drove up because that's why the doors were open because they were struggling. She didn't get a chance to go back there. Right. So she ends up going back there.

And, yeah, she's going back into there after he drives away. This is rough if everybody wants to, you know, might want to fast forward 30 seconds if you don't like rough stuff here. So she takes Darcy's Chevy Blazer key and uses it to make a five and a half inch incision get out of my life how do you how holy shit darcy's alive oh she's just unconscious she's unconscious during this but she's alive uses a chevy blazer key to cut a five and a half inch incision and reaches inside and pulls the baby out out of five and a half inch oh boy just reached right in pulled the baby out then she chewed the umbilical cord oh boy to be able to do that good grief uh pulled the umbilical does all that names her quote her new baby amanda michelle and walks away and leaves cindy to bleed to death in the juniper bushes good christ just leaves her behind that is the most ill-prepared

uh c-section ever that i've never i mean this is it's an inch and a half deep oh boy they said it was when they found her, they said it was made by a blunt cutting edge. And it turns out it was a key inch and a half deep. And they said it was right in the right spot. I mean, she knew exactly where to do it. I know she looked it up or whatever. She this is, I mean, horrible. But the baby is OK right now. Surviving.

The baby's OK. Like the baby is is doing all right Darcy takes the baby gets back in the beetle leaves poor fucking Cindy poor just poor Cindy I don't know how much how much you can't say poor poor poor poor enough with this poor woman and she ends up where

at the Acura dealership that she was at 10 days ago. That's where she drives to. It's 25 miles away on the northwest part of Albuquerque, totally across the city. Yeah, but she just had a baby. This is what she says. She pops up. Rob Moore, the guy that she met last time, is there.

And somebody ran in and said, quote, there's a lady in the parking lot who's having a baby. And Rob, she's asking for you, he said, because she knew Rob. So Rob goes out. Fuck do I know about this? And he sees an off-white Volkswagen with a woman at the wheel clutching a newborn baby wrapped in a bloodstained dress, white with blue stripes. She's sweat-soaked and looks distraught, he said. She said, quote, I delivered my own baby. That's her quote to him. blue stripes she's sweat soaked and looks distraught yeah he said she said quote i delivered my own baby that's her quote to him um she said she was driving on i-25 between santa

fe and albuquerque and just given birth on the side of the road and bit the umbilical cord off and um yeah it's still a baby still had like you know blood and mucus and all that stuff that they clean off of them. They don't just give it to you. They got to, like, suck stuff out and clean off a bunch of shit. Yeah. Moore checked the sales log to see, how do I know this person? And that's when he saw that they'd been in the previous week looking at a car they couldn't afford.

Right. So that's what you want to get right before you have a baby. He said she looked pregnant. She said she was due in a week. So this all seemed, you know, hey, this is fair. He kneels down by her door to keep her company. She asked him, can you take there's a toy nine millimeter Ruger in the back seat. Can you take that?

And it's on the rear floor board. Can you put it in my mat pocket for me there in the back of the seat? It's just rolling around loose. It was a fake gun. She took Cindy with a fake fucking guy. It was a toy. Cindy doesn't know. She doesn't know it's just rolling around loose it was a fake gun oh she took she took cindy with a fake fucking guy it was a toy cindy doesn't know she doesn't know it's a toy she sees a gun she's pregnant she's scared she's trying to protect her baby she'll do anything to do that she's you know she's not going to question is that real unbelievable so she tells him can you call my

husband for me and uh you know whatever uh you know meet me at the hospital she said can you will you ride with me to the hospital so I can hold the baby and you can drive? So the salesman drove her to the hospital where her husband is waiting, excited as shit. Hey, the baby's here. Look at that. 14 months. This kid better be huge. This kid better be 6'2 by now.

He's been in there a long time. kid better be six two by now he's been in there a long time so uh the log the date of the time of birth was logged as 4 45 p.m which is the time of uh that she got to the hospital and um the other sales guy said that darcy told us she was on the road to santa fe she told us that her her husband had argued that she was running away from home oh and that she was running away from home that was her plan she was going to santa fe but she and that she was running away from home. That was her plan. She was going to Santa Fe, but she only had $4 and she turned around. She said on the way back,

she felt labor pains and pulled over and just had the baby on a dirt embankment, like you do, like most people do. So, yeah, she said she seemed flustered, but I mean, if she just had a baby on the side of the road, you'd be a little out of it. You know, you're bleeding. You're probably blood loss in there and everything else.

The paramedics come, and they take her. They don't, you know, drive her there. She refuses to let anybody hold the baby. The paramedics arrive, and they had a hard time wrestling the baby away from her, basically, to check the baby. The paramedics arrive and they had a hard time wrestling the baby away from her basically to check the baby over. She said the little girl was awake but didn't make a sound. That's what the baby, that's what

Rob Moore says. She was bluish and waxy. Her mouth was filled with blood and mucus. He said he helped her clear it out before the paramedics got there and he said, quote, she pinked up right away. She pinked up right away. I put her in a newra i said what do i have to do you're looking healthy sweetheart don't worry about what do i have to do to get you in a new integra before that umbilical cord falls off what do you say what do you got what do you think i'm gonna

i think that was the only car that Acura sold at the time, right? No, they had the Integra. No, they had the Legend, too. And the Legend. That was the higher-end one was the Legend. That was more expensive. The Integra was like the sporty one. So, yeah, so they do all of this shit.

She explains the whole deal. They go to the hospital. They said that the baby's umbilical cord looked frayed because she said she chewed it off. But that would mean, James, that she either tucked the rest up or grabbed a hold of it and yanked the sack out. Pulled it right out. That's gross. I don't know. But, I mean, they're not going to ask her.

So what's going on downstairs? They're car salesmen. So what's going on down there? What do you got? Pieces hanging out still or what? The doctor's going to say, I'm sorry, ma'am. What's going on down there? What do you got? But it's a hospital still or what? The doctor is going to say, I'm sorry, man, but we got to have a look at that. Yeah. You didn't rip your taint, did you?

Like, you're not going to assume you're still trying to sell cars. Give yourself an episiotomy with the VW key. I think you did. So it's 630 p.m. Yeah. Well, all this is going on. He's the Sam is Ray Sam Ray it's we it's confusing because Ray is Darcy's husband's name and Cindy's last name is right her husband is Sam Ray so Sam is looking

for Cindy at 630 finally reports her absence to base security he says fuck it he said I came directly home after and I reported it they told me that the best place for me to be was home. I barely got home before people from the church were helping and offering moral support. So at this point, any local Mormon in the area has come together and they are making phone calls. They're combing the streets. I mean, they really mobilize themselves. The bishop called and others called every hospital in Albuquerque. They alerted hospital staff to watch out for either an injured pregnant woman or a premature

baby. And finally, he said he tried to sleep at one point, right, because he couldn't find her, didn't know what else to do. He said, I was worried about Luke. That's a two year old, that little guy back there. He said, so I tried to get some sleep around midnight. I slept on and off about four hours. I kept worrying about her, wondering where she was and whether she was suffering. So this is miserable. You're at home trying to care for a two-year-old and make him not scared or whatever. He's asking for mommy, and he's like, I'd like mommy, too, to come home.

or whatever he's asking for mommy and he's like i'm i'd like mommy too to come home um he said i wondered whether she was suffering whether the people who had her were torturing her jesus it's a horrible thought to have well i guess if you're trained in police you know that's out there too you know trained in police work he said i told him mommy might not be coming home jesus christ it's a little i would wait till the next day to tell the kid that, but I mean, I don't know. I'm not like... This guy sounds like he's a real... He's a man. I would wait till the next day. He's just straight.

He's a straight arrow, this Ray. Or this Sam, I'm sorry. So Darcy and Ray, back at the hospital, Darcy and her husband, she's exhausted but excited. Darcy notices her necklace had broken and the Krugerrand was missing. So he slipped the chain off her neck and was like, oh, your chain's broken. Your Krugerrand's missing.

That's weird. She said, I must have done it while I was delivering a baby. You know how that goes. You ever delivered a baby? Fucking Ray? Come on, Ray. Let's get your shit together. She wanted the baby checked over by the

hospital but she refused to be examined herself she said she was fine uh there was yeah there was blood and mud from her thighs to her feet and the doctors were worried about her bleeding obviously and uh but she's angry she said they said she was angry and very short with them and wouldn't let them near her she wanted to sign sign a waiver, get a birth certificate, and be the fuck gone. Okay. But her husband, Ray, worried about her, wouldn't let her do it. Wouldn't let her do it. Said no, no.

Insisted that she's going to be examined. She's going to be examined. She tells several different stories, by the way. She tells them that she had the baby on the side of the road. Then they examine her and they say, you haven't had a fucking baby at all. What are you talking about? You're fine. You kind of got to take a dump.

Maybe you had Carl's Jr. tonight or something. But other than that, you're fine. She said, OK, fine. I got the baby from a surrogate mother mother a woman that i met at an abortion clinic in portland and i paid her ten thousand dollars for a baby so that's what that's what she says those are two entirely different stories very different very different stories then she has another thing now she said she had the baby she picked the baby up from a midwife in Santa Fe, whom she paid $2,000 for the baby. She said she was unable to provide a name

or any details of the location or the person she bought the baby from, but rest assured, I bought the baby. She said she got the money from a trust fund. They said, where'd that come from? She had no answer for that. Who gave you a trust fund? Your dad runs a fucking forklift at night

and your fat, ugly mother makes wedding cakes what the fuck the other point is no offense that's her time not us you can't afford an acura how are you going to afford a child that's the problem there's so much more expensive yeah well she's got this trust fund so kicking she said that uh she received word from an employee who worked at the clinic that Cindy Ray had disappeared after her appointment. And a third-year resident and obstetrician, obstetrician, lobster. Lobsters? What? Lobster rules?

Lobster-tritions? Is that a lobster doctor? How do you say that? Obstetrician. Obstetrics. Obstetrician how do you say that obstetric obstetric obstetrics obstetrician yeah but that's not it the the field is obstetric tricks oh is that i don't know i've never i've never said that word before in my life and my my mouth just went into like if you said say these chinese words i'd be like i don't know how does my mouth can't make those sounds yeah it's very strange so uh yeah anyway she called police and pierce uh denied knowing anything about the missing woman at all at first okay um this is the

this is the crazy thing here um dr susan graham the chief resident uh she said that she looked pierce looked like a woman who was about 20 weeks pregnant with a quote nice little bulge but it was not a uterus it was soft so she had a little bit of a gut yeah so then finally she said fine little bulge yeah finally she said i lied because i didn't want my husband to know the baby wasn't his and that i bought it i wanted him to think that he had a baby and that it was his baby not a baby that i bought so he said that she said she went to have went to the midwife midwife splashed blood all over my legs you know they do that's part of the that's it's part of the the whole thing is they splash blood on your legs yeah it's like part of that you get some blood do all that ten thousand you get blood and a baby and um they were like wouldn't the midwife at least clamp the umbilical

cord and like do it properly like they would know how to do that they wouldn't nod off with their teeth probably so um at 1 a.m finally uh this doctor locks the nursery and calls the police she doesn't believe shit about nice uh police nurses and doctors swarm all around darcy's all calm so finally all these all these cops are here and at this point it's uh you know it's getting really hard to believe anything she says and they're every question they ask her she has no answer for it she doesn't know where she got money from she doesn't know anything about the midwife she doesn't know where she got a baby she just got it from a lady who splashed blood on her for it's crazy so um finally uh while all this is going on by the way uh they're still looking

for cindy the husband's looking for cindy uh he's calling everybody she sold tupperware to you know uh the tupperware manager is calling everybody that he has on the phone tree that she might know her uh he says quote one of the ladies this is uh her husband sam one of the ladies she talked to said she had been uh had said she had seen a lady come into a hospital with a baby that wasn't hers it was the first time i figured out what had happened i was a cop i could understand why a person would want to kidnap someone. But until then, I couldn't understand why they would want to kidnap a pregnant woman. And then he understood, oh, they were stealing the baby. Now I get it. So back at the hospital, the big crack came with Elizabeth Kohler. She's the nurse that's in that car in the beginning of

the story. She is the charge nurse in the labor and delivery area after 11 p.m. She walked Darcy to the nursery to look at the baby when she first got there. And then later on, she was confronting her, basically. And Darcy said to her, quote, you know how powerful the mind can be. People can fake pregnancies, which was a weird thing. Then then they asked her, do know cindy ray and she said no i have no friends in town and uh they said to her the mother of this baby may be out there somewhere need our help and she said i'm sorry that this cindy ray is missing but i know nothing that's her answer so um at 3 30 p.m or 3 30 a.m finally the cops and the hospital staff went to Ray Pierce, because they don't know if he's in on this or what.

They don't know shit. They went to Ray and told him that the baby's not his baby. And they said they could tell in the five minutes they were talking to him that he 1,000% believed his wife was pregnant and had nothing to do with this. He believed it lock, and barrel um finally at 7 30 a.m darcy's been awake most of the night um you know she's been up she barely nodded off here and there they take her into a hospital conference room filled with with detectives now so now they say tell me the story again so she tells the story about the surrogate mother they quest they question her she's angry she says it's my baby i paid for it at one point which is a hilarious i don't know i know it's terrible at this point hilarious but for someone to get up and

shout it's my baby i paid for it is just funny so um at about 10 a.. the next morning in a side room away from police, Nurse Kohler brings the baby again to Darcy. This is like a strategy. Bring the baby to Darcy and see what happens. Darcy, I wouldn't let her hold it at this point. No, I want to touch it. Darcy cradles the baby and all this sort of shit. And she says to Kohler, quote, I feel like a real person for the first time in my life. This baby is going to live its entire life with me.

That's what she says. Then she started telling Kohler about that she was adopted and she never felt part of her family, and now she's going to make this baby feel part of her family. And Kohler said, do you want the same thing to happen to this baby? How do you think this baby's mother would feel? And there was no answer from Darcy. And then Kohler says, do you have any idea where this baby's mother might be?

And she took a pause, and then Darcy says, quote, maybe something terrible has happened, but I can't bring it up. So at that point, Darcy hands the baby to another nurse and asks her to, quote, take it away from me. Take this baby away. She breaks down and cries and says, quote, I've done something horribly wrong. I'm afraid maybe something is wrong with the woman. Afraid, maybe. You think?

You opened her with a GM key, you fucking jerk. She says, quote, Elizabeth, I killed her. My mother is going to hate key you fucking jerk on she says quote elizabeth i killed her my mother is going to hate me that's what she says now i feel terrible for her my mother's going to hate me not what have i done this poor woman this poor baby this poor family my mother's gonna hate me the woman i call fat for my whole life right so it's at this point they hop in the car because she's got where where it is where poor cindy would be is she can't describe that so they hop in the car albuquerque officer air force officer uh nurse kohler right to take a to be able to give medical attention if necessary and finally Darcy. So leads them there.

About 10 a.m., at 11 a.m., they cross the cattle guard. And it's at this point, once she tells them to stop, she starts crying and she says, quote, I killed her. I took the baby. God, I hope she's not dead. And points to a tree and said, there she is.

She's over there. Oh, boy. Then she screams, get me out of here. Please kill me. Please kill me. No. And she's begging them to kill her. So they find Cindy partially covered by her white blouse and her blue maternity pants there.

Her keys are in the tall grass by her body. Police believe she was strangled, like we said, and she'll admit it later, strangled with the monitor belt. It's a soft pink color, too, which doesn't seem like anything should be strangled should be that color. They said that it was remarkable that they pierced the abdominal wall below the navel with this key and they were shocked that this happened um but the amount of blood pooling there that's what kept the baby alive because the amount of blood pooled and kept the baby alive it didn't until the cord was cut so it was it was crazy um she um it's it's fucking nuts so anyway we'll move on from that. The police moved her body at that point. That's when they found the Krugerrand under there.

Now they had even more evidence in addition to the confession. So yeah, she's saying that she killed her. She said that she used a model gun. She said it looked really real and it fooled her. I got her into the car with it. used a model gun she said it looked really real and it fooled her i got her into the car with it um so by 5 30 p.m the new the baby is released from the hospital perfectly perfectly healthy raring to go and given to her real father sam ray and uh he calls her amelia and puts that on her birth certificate and she's six pounds, eight ounces, very healthy, except for a little tiny scratch on her head.

God, who knows where that came from. All she went through, that's incredible. Incredible. And Sam is a remarkable guy, by the way. He really is. When you hear some of the things he says, this man is a, he's a, I don't even know how to put it. He's a way better human being than I am to put it he's a way better human being than i am put it that way

yeah way better human being he says quote my only request that if she was going let her go quickly and painlessly and if not let us find her i think both requests were answered so because she was unconscious and they don't think she ever regained consciousness they think that she bled to death while she was unconscious so silver lining at all jesus and yeah i mean and sam says to him even though his wife is gone he loves his wife more than anything he says that the baby even looks like the mother and he says quote she was born under a tree up in the desert by all medical standards she shouldn't have lived it's a medical miracle so she was like this is born he looked at this as a tree born under a tree in the desert is more uh uh cleanly than a manger but he's he's cherry sugarcoating the shit out she was open with a fucking key she was delivered

with teeth and a key that's crazy that she's's alive. That's why he's a remarkable man. What a sweetheart of a man. That's why he's an amazing person who has an outlook on the world that I envy, and I just don't know how a person can do that. He trimmed the fat out of that story more than any comic could ever. Oh, man, right out of the joke.

That is unbelievable. He's got it down to like three words, and it's hilarious somehow. So that's a great comic. The Dr. Frank Witter, who's an associate professor of maternal and fetal medicine at Johns Hopkins University. So he knows his baby shit. Yeah. Another word slash knows his baby shit basically is what that means. It's a real doctor's fuck. He said it's quote miraculous. He said this may be a unique case. I can't think of a report of a similar kind of thing occurring or a woman went out this way to obtain a child. It's incredible.

And the child lived. He's just amazed by it. All the doctors are amazed that this child is healthy, that it wasn't, you know, that she actually did this. you know, that she actually did this. Dr. Marianne Bartousis, a psychiatrist, says, quote, it's incredible. A person who exhibits behavior as unusual and bizarre as this must be out of touch with reality. That's the initial thing. So the autopsy report shows that she died from strangulation and blood loss

and that she suffered when the baby was taken, obviously. And they conducted blood tests to help determine that the baby was hers and everything like that. So all that evidence is there. And, yeah, they have a press conference. At the press conference, they also, the press asked, do these people know each other? Did she, like, stalk this woman? Was she, like, BTK? She, like, you know know and they said no she

just that randomly walked out of the door she's the first most pregnant woman she could find she grabbed her through in the car so i'm gonna yank that out of you it was like that was the plan not much of a plan they said that the couples didn't even know each other they both were in the air force but they didn't know each other it's a big it's a big fucking branch you know what i mean she probably walked out and she just said something in passing like how far along are you and she excitedly likely said oh i'm giving birth next week yeah and she said get in the fucking car get in that's wild god damn if only there were cameras there too you might have known that so they lived in different areas of the city. The old landlord, Mrs. Stockton, they talked to her again. She said, I just can't feature her doing something like that.

If I could see Darcy, I'd just like to put my arms around her. I assume in a hug, not a strangle. I'd like to do it too, but in a different way. But she's got her own problems, though. She said, so the question is, was she ever pregnant? Was she pregnant the first time was she ever pregnant was she pregnant the first time when she miscarried um her husband uh ray said i love my wife and i don't want to say anything that might hurt her but then later on they said that she actually was she was she had uh

may have been uh um she said that he thinks that she did she he said quote they did a suction dilation and a cutter what is this oh curatage they removed a fetus but the baby was dead so she yeah she had a miscarriage so uh disgusting terms I've ever heard that was did not sound good that was from a layman it was just a guy said that some dude in the Air Force said that he said, I married her because I love her. I don't think anyone marries someone who has a crime inside them like for that. And it's a weird way of putting it. So why is the question? Why would you do this?

She 24 hours after this whole thing, she she gives a full confession. They take her in taped confession. She then psychiatrist talked to her for hours as well to figure out what the hell's going on with her uh one part of her she's they found that one part of her thought she was pregnant and another part covered up the fact that she wasn't basically half of her brain was like i'm pregnant and forced her you know you the brain does do weird shit you can like make yourself think you're pregnant but then the other half was like let's ignore the fact that this isn't reality one of those deals um they said that uh uh under hypnosis which by the way all right the hypnosis is if the

person like we'll use kenny bianchi as a great example of this, one of the hillside stranglers. Kenny Bianchi had studied hypnosis and knew a lot about hypnosis and read a lot of books about hypnosis and knew that if he didn't want to be hypnotized, he couldn't be hypnotized. So he could act like he's hypnotized. And when he did that for several different psychologists, psychiatrists, all of a sudden different personalities came out. He had the bad one, you know, the bad guy who did all the killing. And then he had little Stevie or Billy, little Billy, it was called. Little Billy was like the kid who likes to eat tuna fish sandwiches and he's all innocent. Right.

You know, he had all these little, all these different personalities. And then he had Kenny, who was the nice guy. And like when he would turn into the bad one, he would rip his filter off his cigarette. And he'd be like, that Kenny's a pussy. He's a fucking pussy. It's hilarious. And three psychiatrists bought that shit, too. They were like, it's got multiple personalities.

It's amazing. They wanted to study it. It's so much fun to watch. amazing as somebody wanted us that would be so much fun to watch as somebody just that doesn't believe in hypnosis i'd just be sitting there going this guy is a blast this guy is crazy well he he knew enough to actually do a pretty convincing job it's just when they bought brought in a fourth psychiatrist what he did was he did these little tests about hypnosis like is this little thing of like you draw basically like he made a circle on his hand once he was on hypnosis, like with his finger. And he said, every time I touch you outside of that circle, you're going to say, ouch.

But you're not going to be able to feel when I touch you in that circle or you say no, unless it's in the circle. Every time I touch you, you say no unless it's in the circle. Every time I touch you, you say no. And then if it's in the circle, you say yes. But you won't be able to feel me touch you in the circle at all. I won't be able to feel. And so when he touched in the circle, Kenny didn't say anything. But in reality, when someone's hypnotized and you touch them, they actually do feel it and they will say yes. So that's where he fucked up. And there was like two other cases like that, little things where he tested them or hypnotized people do that.

Like he said, oh, your lawyer is here. And a hypnotized person will have you can make them think that a person is there that wasn't. You know what I mean? So he did. But he got up and walked over to him and pretended like he shook his hand. And he said, never does a hypnotized person ever try to make physical contact with an imaginary person that's never happened before he goes so that's bullshit he didn't know what he was doing so there's ways to tell under hypnosis darcy said

she brought up another part of her she said called quote the dark one yeah called the dark now if anybody was going to be a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple personalities she's the she's the stew sure she's this is what you know like if you look at sybil like abuse neglect sexual abuse like that's that's what makes that so it would be there but she doesn't have that as the problem. She's just out of her mind. She's an angry woman is what she is. She's angry about she wanted – what she wants is an ideal perfect lifestyle and perfect life, and she just didn't have it, and she's furious about it.

And she was only 19. She had time. You know what I mean? You don't have to do that. It might not have happened until you were 33. Who knows? But you know what? That's life.

So the psychiatrist at Case Western University who specializes in reproductive biology, a psychiatrist who specializes in reproductive biology. I guess that would make sense for genetics for that. for prenatal genetics for that. So she says that the facts of the case suggest that Pierce may have suffered from postpartum psychosis and false pregnancy from the miscarriage. She says, quote, it's a fascinating case. This woman sounds psychotic following a traumatic pregnancy.

She lost touch with reality. Another doctor said, quote, it's extremely bizarre, but postpartum psychosis is well known. There's no reason to believe this couldn't occur after the termination of a pregnancy. They said, you know, milder forms of postpartum emotional disorders, and this is in 1988, they're saying this, so, you know, now it might be different. They said occur in about 20% of women who've had normal pregnancies. For some reason, the depression or other psychiatric disturbances may be severe sometimes. And some mentally healthy women,

quote, so much want to be pregnant that their psychology changes, their abdomen enlarges, and their breasts enlarge, and they may even secrete milk. It's called false pregnancy. Your brain can actually make your body go into having a baby mode with no baby in there having a thing yeah it's a fake pregnancy that your body made up not you yeah yeah you your brain made it up and your body is following your brain's lead because your brain is signaling it that's how much you believe it lactating that's isn't that fucking crazy that is crazy women are are amazing. Yeah. They said that only after doctors take ultrasound pictures of the uterus and find it empty to the women usually snap out of it and they'll admit what they did and they'll say they're not pregnant and they'll understand they're not pregnant and then they'll get some treatment and, you know, whatever.

But to a lot of women, that comes as a great shock. So this doctor, they can't believe that they're not pregnant. They really thought they were. They said about two or three of the 3,000 women who come to Johns Hopkins each year to give birth turn out to have false pregnancies. So it's a low percentage, but it happens. It's rare, but it's not that rare, he says. Two, three a year is plenty. That's only in that hospital.

Three years, plenty. That's only in that hospital. So other hospitals, quote, women who strongly believe enough that they're pregnant can suppress the production of the pituitary hormones needed for menstruation and ovulation. They make their period stop and everything. They produce increased amounts of another hormone, prolactin, which helps stimulate the secretion of breast milk. which helps help stimulate the secretion of breast milk many women who believe they're pregnant actually produce milk and they're they're capable of producing milk in adoptive mothers um they said and that sort of shit if the if an infant's if an infant's life depends on it a woman's body might kick into that instinctually their brain will make their make milk come out of their tits out of nowhere that's crazy yeah that's great stop acting like we're all fancy we have all these we are fucking mammals man literally like oh that baby's dying let me

well there we go i got some milk coming out like that's dude that's we're that's animal behavior right there that's exactly what that is so we are that's what we are a bunch of wild animals vaccinated wild animals that's it man animals. That's it, man. House broken wild ass animals. Fuck. So Darcy's in jail. And as you can imagine, Darcy doesn't like jail. Probably not the most fun.

No. She said on her first day in jail, she thought the guards didn't trust her or like her. Yeah, no. Her lawyer says. People are going to have some judgment. She cut a pregnant woman's abdomen open and pulled a baby out. With a car key! Yeah, not even a goddamn pocket knife.

You opened a baby locker with a key. That's nuts. That's messed up. They said no sheets, no blankets, no towels, no toilet paper. They didn't give her anything. Other inmates threatened her life. One woman attacked her by the second day. She told her attorney that she was scared and uh they said no one knows how to deal with her they're not

sure what she's about is what the lawyer said they just don't get who she is and they just want to kill her so the district attorney he says quote i think uh i this is the public defender talking i think there's something sacred in the public mind about pregnancy, the biological magic in a woman. Disturb it and you violate a dark taboo. Yeah. Well, that and coupled with the fact that that's one of the most vulnerable people on the planet. That's the eight and a half month pregnant woman. Everyone wants to protect that.

Protect that. Well, that'd be like a 90 year old person. And you just want to protect them. They're fragile and vulnerable. Anything that you do to her her you have doubled your victims too already that's yeah because that kid's ready to come out that's crazy uh the one uh the district attorney said quote i believe the evidence in this case supports the death penalty we're not a small town here we have smog rush hour traffic and murders all over the place i don't know why

we bragging right we fucking bragging darcy's attorneys say her defense may be insanity uh the one attorney says i'm not sure she knows what happened or why it happened she's a very frightened 19 year old yeah um they said she sits there and and just waits to go to court basically basically. Now, Ray, or I'm sorry, Sam Ray, Cindy's husband, he basically gets Amelia at the hospital, goes home, and then moves back with his family in Utah. He leaves the area. You would definitely want the fuck out of there. I can't remember anything about this place.

Yep, he's going to join the Air National Guard and study secondary education at BYU. And he delivers this statement to the public before leaving the area. A very unfortunate chain of events has left two children motherless and a husband longing for his wife. This catastrophe will affect their lives for many years. Even though this situation has long-lasting effects, we want to express our feelings for the other parties involved. we wish to say that we feel sympathy for women who cannot have children of their own yeah that's that guy's statement that's holy shit that dude is like he's like he's like what jesus is like in like good stories about jesus you know what i mean like that's like you know the whatever

the term but that's like that's being very christ-like there you know what i mean like that's like you know the whatever the term but that's like that's being very christ-like there you know what i'm saying the way what a christian would say he's definitely that is definitely shooting the other cheek for being a saint for sainthood empathy sympathy i mean fuck man that's crazy it's a miracle if i've ever heard one wow man that guy is something else wow or he just wrote his own personal ad yeah well he picks up the pieces good for him the trial is going to come up and uh she is charged with child abuse which obviously uh kidnapping and first degree murder quite a bit she pleads not guilty by reason of insanity so uh that's how that works.

Now, first up, this is mainly just psychiatrists. There's no doubt what happened. You know, there's no like, oh, we're going to bring in a big surprise witness. And, oh, now the facts are straight. She said what she did. Everything like that. She they come on. Now, one is Susan Brayfield Cave, who we talked about.

One is Susan Brayfield Cave, who we talked about. She says that Darcy Pierce, quote, is not a person with a major mental illness, but shows signs of having a mental disorder. Now, the difference in that is legal. Obviously, mental illness means major mental illness means you're less responsible criminally. Mental disorders mean you're fine, basically, in the eyes of the law the law right because illness means you're dangerous and suffering right this second uh and you can't help it disorder almost means like you could keep it under control but you choose not to like that's in legal parlance not in reality disorder means possible in the future could be yeah so they admitted uh the psychologist said that she

administered a battery of tests to darcy she She concluded, quote, there were some oddities in her behavior in past history that were very unusual. They don't fall into mental illness. They fall into another realm. Jesus Christ. Darcy said she experienced times when she believed she could hear a baby cry, just like hearing it. She also believed she was changing the diapers of a of an imaginary baby at points wow that she's gone that's a different realm that's a little fucking bonjour there that's that's another one uh this psychologist also said that she disagreed with the findings of

another psychologist who said that darcy exhibited signs of antisocial personality. She said this is this woman, Susan Cave, evaluates about 150 criminal suspects every year before they go to trial. So she's not like she's she sees criminals. You know what I mean? That's like even the guy who believed Kenny Bianchi and believed his whole shit. He then went and worked in a prison for 10 years and then went, I would never believe him now. Like now that because psychiatrists, you're taught that the whole, I don't know, business

or medical, whatever the fuck it is. Psychiatry is built on self-reporting. Right. They ask you and you tell them what's wrong with you and then they try to fix it. They're not there to try to call you out for being a liar about your shit. Like, how does that help you? You know what I mean? So the problem is when you get criminals that do that, lying helps them.

They have a reason to lie. But in your mind, why would a person lie to a doctor? You know what I mean? So that's why. They thought I never thought of that. Then once they get in prison, they go, criminals lie. I never knew that. Literally. The. They thought I never thought of that. Then once they get in prison, they go, criminals lie. I never knew that. Literally.

The guy said, I never realized criminals lie. That's what I found. So anyway, she said that, quote, Darcy Pierce was without a doubt one of the most disturbed people I've ever seen. She said that Darcy said that she believed Darcy said, look, I'm pretty sure I'm possessed by the devil. So there's that. You're going to have to worry about that. They got that going on. So that's a problem.

You know, this psychologist said that she said, quote, when she said that she was possessed, she added that if that part of herself or that aspect, whatever you want to call it, was brought into the room, then we would all be in danger is what she said so if she shows up you don't want to meet her i'm going to keep her under wraps for your safety right you know what i'm saying don't you dare exercise this and get it all out in the open because then we're all in a world of hurt yeah she said the psychologist said that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. And the psychologist also said she still can't comprehend this whole thing. She said, it's hard to imagine why somebody would do that, especially if you were having a warm, loving, nurturing feelings and you wanted to have a baby.

That's a mental health expert that goes, I don't know what the fuck. So we can't make any sense of this. Now, they also talked about antisocial personality disorder. Maybe it was that. And other psychologists said that maybe that's what she's suffering from there. That's possible because there was they said a psychiatrist called by the prosecutor said that she had antisocial personality disorder. Five other expert witnesses didn't, but four of them said she had features of it. So there was that. They said that part of that is chronic lying and recklessness, such as fast driving were among Pierce's characteristics, cited not only by psychiatrists and psychologists, but also by just people that knew her.

Those are things she does. Lie a lot, drive fast, do that sort of shit is so driving fast a mental disorder no but when you add it with a lying all the time it's a yeah lying all the time is fine there's a lot of things that are fine if you do one of five but if you do four or five then you're fucking you know it's bad it's one of those so yes driving fast is you might just like to drive fast but if you drive fast and you're a compulsive liar, you're leaning more toward antisocial personality disorder because you have no regard for anything, you know, but yourself. So that's what that shows. So basically, we probably have hundreds of millions of people fall into that category. I was just thinking about all the things that I do that are detrimental to everybody else.

And I was like, oh, my God, am I? No, no, no. You have a lot of empathy because all of the other thing is they used to misdiagnose autistic people as as antisocial personality disorder for lack of empathy. They didn't understand that that was part of that. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't get that. Like, so that was a problem as well. So they also cite her.

Dr. Philip Resnick also cited that her alleged alleged sexual promiscuity because it comes out from the husband that she said she had like an affair with a woman while he was in basic training. And she kind of whatever. She had some promiscuity. But with her background that's you know it's not really out of this realm of believable here also she's a liar yes and also they say that that's all fine separately but you add all of that with a lack of remorse for crimes you got an anti-social personality they're saying that's that's the rose you know if three petals isn't enough all four have to there it is bloom they also testified that she was extremely self-centered

and manipulative but uh they did not link those characteristics specifically to being an antisocial personality disorder just some people are selfish that's normal that's human beingism so the only real question is fucking mentally ill or not mentally ill what's the problem here uh guilty or not guilty so the verdict comes down march 29th 1988 and she is found guilty and mentally oh so they got her the worst possible thing it's not that you're crazy and not guilty because of it. You're guilty, very guilty, and also very crazy. I have a good one. What are they going to do with her now?

She's going to prison. That's it. Prison. That's the difference is guilty but mentally ill means that now she's going to prison, but they'll give her therapy. She'll go to a psychiatrist in prison every day you know she's got like that uh designation or whatever that she has to do that sort of thing but she's gonna go to prison still now when told of all this um uh uh sam ray wow

this is crazy she's well i'll give you the sentencing finally sentencing you ma'am may fuck off life in prison with without with yeah but still life and uh yeah so sam ray at this point he's had a year to soak this in almost it's been about 10 months she said he says that he claims no bitterness toward darcy he says quote i feel sorry for her i feel sympathy for women who cannot have children of their own one of my best friends couldn't have babies it's a really hard thing yeah uh then they said that um he said that that he's been assured that if that he'll always be and he'll be informed if she ever becomes eligible for parole and he says quote i don't really worry about it i want to be notified if she's ever released but

i don't worry about it this guy is just this guy is just a fucking saint so um yeah her defense attorney after this whole thing was like blown away he says quote i don't doubt anything now i guess that's how it changed me maybe the devil does exist maybe god does exist it was clearly a supernatural experience like i don't even fucking know who i am anymore that's the trial that i just went through that's how crazy this case was it made a defense attorney go i might believe in god or i might not or i might believe in the devil now but black is white up is down i don't know what the fuck is happening i traded in my blazer because i don't want to

carry around those dangerous keys that damn key and i i know what that blazer key is too it's a yes i know what it looks like square top yeah i know exactly yeah that's a dangerous key i know what it looks like it is those gm keys are fucking they have their their pointy at the end and all of that that's and the square at the top is coated in rubber and you can grip the shit out of that and it's like yeah the the key teeth are like it's like a fucking saw yeah the old ones weren't coated in rubber though i don't yeah the top the old the old 80s to like 93 around there the top had that was the black square rubber piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it only had one side was serrated, and the top was flat. You know what I mean?

So it was like a tiny little saw. They have, and all I remember is square is ignition and circle is doors. Doors and hatch. So anyway, the day after the trial ends, one of the jurors talks to a newspaper. The day after the trial ends, one of the jurors talks to a newspaper. And so a little background on this juror. During the juror questioning process in the beginning, the court said, quote, have you ever been treated by a psychiatrist or a psychologist for any reason? He said, not that I remember, Your Honor, not that I can remember. And then he said at one time I had kind of a dizzy spell and they thought that i needed a psychiatrist and finally a doctor got a hold of me and took

care of me so i didn't have to have a psychiatrist so um the day after the verdict came out he's in the newspaper and he says quote i was mentally sick it caused me to go berserk at 12 or 13 this is a much different story than I was a little dizzy. I was feeling a little off and fluish, you know what I mean? I've never mixed up dizzy with being straight up berserk, James. Berserk.

He said, quote, I had to go to a hospital for a year. He was institutionalized for a year. That's more than a little dizzy. He said that's why it was so easy to judge her case. I've seen people who are 10 times worse than she was go into mental hospitals and be cured. Cured. That's what he said.

Cured. So based on this statement in the newspaper, Darcy files a motion for a new trial that this juror lied about his background and blah blah blah and all this sort of shit so um at a hearing on the motion that juror has to testify and he testifies that this isn't funny but it's funny his father hit him on the head with a board when he was young and that traumatizing event caused him to be unable to talk and was not like Stevie and beat the speech out of him in the Stevie documentary and resulted in him being hospitalized for depression and a head injury. It's called brain damage, sir. Brain damage. He's a little depressed from having brain damage.

It's tough when that happens. So he said when asked if the person who helped him in the hospital had been a psychiatrist, he said, no, no, no, because they was not dealing with my mind. They was dealing with my speech because I knew what was wrong. OK, which that's not how that works. He also said that I was not a medical treatment that healed him also from the state. Also from the state, he said it was, quote, a beautiful experience in which the Lord Jesus Christ, the living God healed me. That is the best experience I've ever received. OK, so that's that's what he said in court, by the way, under oath.

So he then denied telling the newspaper reporter that he'd been mentally sick or had gone berserk. And he testified at that point that, quote, he could see the devil in Darcy Pierce. This fucking guy, I want him to be like, I don't care where they put Darcy at this point. I'm worried about this guy walking around. He continued, I saw her in the right way. I saw her in witchcraft. I saw her in rebellious way. I saw her in witchcraft. I saw her in rebelliousness. I saw her murder.

I saw all these things because I'm a spiritual man. Oh, my God. He's fucking this guy's out of his mind. He's fucking hallucinating and shit. What is happening right now? This is fucking ridiculous, man. He is mad religious though it's i would say uh this juror uh continued to maintain he's never been treated by a psychiatrist and then he didn't falsely answer any questions he just he's just had a beautiful experience with god so sam ray he was given a

hardship discharge from the air force if anybody deserves a hardship discharge it's this guy he's got a a two-year-old and an infant and a wife you know blading to death in juniper bushes like for the love of christ this guy's got a lot going on if he doesn't qualify who the fuck does yeah who does that's exactly right he uh he ends up uh in the next couple years tries to put his life back together he says what's been hard for me is adjusting to a different way of life without the one that i had hoped to share my life with and had worked so hard to make our life the way we wanted it cindy and i had done everything right we didn't let it happen we made it happen it was all jerked out from under us um but he moves on and gets remarried two years later.

Yeah. So he gets remarried. He goes to BYU. He wants to be a high school teacher and work with kids who are having problems in school, you know, so they don't go out and cut a baby out of a woman in the future. Which is he's going to the source. That's smart. He says that he's determined not to be bitter. This is amazing.

He said his adjustment to a new life was made easier by the support and kindness shown by the people around him. He said, quote, when really horrible things happen, the best comes out in people. Well, sometimes he says you really get to cut through the facade and see that even though there are many evil things in the world, there's still a lot of good. It's up to us to find the good and deal with the bad. What a nice guy. He says it was difficult trying to find the right way to tell his children what happened to his mother, to their mother.

He says in a lot of ways, Luke came to think of his mother's disappearance was his sister's fault because the baby came at the same time the mother left so in a kid's mind that's cause and effect you know what i mean so baby here mom gone we traded the baby for mom what the fuck yeah so the kid ended up going to a child psychologist and ray concluded the that the truth would be less painful a less painful way of telling his son what happened to his mom you might be right yeah that's what the psychologist said to him too he said quote i told him that someone had hurt his mom so bad that she died because they wanted his sister so bad luke's been okay since then i'm trying to be as open as i can with my daughter i'm trying to do it as naturally as i can i think luke will fill her in i think it will will be hard enough when Amelia realizes the magnitude of it.

Building up to it will make it easier. So, holy shit. This is just fucking horrible here. I'd like to talk to Luke someday and find out what he remembers from it. Because I have this. We have Luke alone, by the way, everybody. If you ever find that guy, don't bother him, please. We wouldn't bother him with this. But if I ran into him and he says, I'm that guy, I would like to know.

I'd like to know. Because I remember things from my childhood that are all they're all traumatic and my earliest memories are traumatic shit and i think that i think that he remembers something from this i think that your brain naturally kickstarts memories so that you know and it was an ongoing thing too yeah and it was an ongoing thing so like you know that went on for years with you know this whole thing so it's got to be it's got to be in there so um her now darcy's mother um uh here i'm sorry cindy's mother darcy's mother cindy's mother vicky giles says that she uh she says not a day goes by when i don't think about her and don't miss her. Just the way she was and acted, she was so special. So everybody likes her.

She said she's been having a hard time with the whole thing. She doesn't agree with the defense. She said that Pierce knew exactly what she was doing. And if she didn't, she wouldn't have been able to do what she did. There you go. I don't want to see her let go. She'll end up doing the same thing to somebody else. She then says she took a life.

I think she should be put to death. So she's taking the opposite tact of Sam. Sam's like, you know what? I'm going to help some kids. She's like, I'll do that, too. But right after I kill this bitch, she took a life. Give a life, lady. Wow.

Yeah. Take a penny. take a penny leave a penny uh giles said that he she has mixed feelings for pierce she does say this in a way i feel sorry for her i blame her husband and her family more than anything else they knew something was wrong yet they didn't do anything i don't think you can blame them. She put on a convincing act. Yeah. She was fucking lactating, man. She's holding this shit against old Sam. She's wearing maternity clothes, telling him that she's going to doctor's appointments when he's at work. She's doing all this shit. He believed it, man.

Like, Ray, I don't blame that guy at all. I mean, yeah, maybe he's a little dumb, but he's also a 20-year- old guy that might not know everything about the wonders of a woman's pregnant body you know what i mean he might not uh you know maybe he should have said i'll hang out with you and see how much you're farting in the next hour then i'll know if you're pregnant or not then she then he would have known it's just a what a that's a she's mad well and but oh yeah and that's not even uh that's cindy's mom jesus that's cindy's mom's mom. Jesus. That's Cindy's mom. Yeah. Then Cindy's mom says, yet in a way, I hate her, too.

She took every she took away something that she could never give back. And, yeah, she says the baby's growing and getting cuter every day, though. So the next year, 1988, the state, the D.A. gets a bunch of money for the witnesses. I guess there was a big thing of who's going to pay for these expert witnesses and all that shit. So they actually get a grant for it. 1988, Darcy loses a, she loses an appeal for a new trial based on the juror. Yeah. Based on that juror lying or whatever and saying that she's the devil and all that shit.

Now, this baby snatching shit does not happen a lot, by the way. It doesn't? This is, no. Now, this baby snatching shit does not happen a lot, by the way. It doesn't? No. From 1974 to 2011, there have been 22 fetal abductions, attempted fetal abductions or alleged fetal abductions in the United States. I think I've heard every single one of them now. Because they're so fucking crazy. It's the craziest shit you can possibly do. It's fucking insane.

But that's not a lot at all. No. We've had more serial killers than that. Oh, for sure. Like, more like real serious shit. You know, John Douglas is in the winter. There's more serial killers. Yeah, there's more serial killers with nicknames than 22. Yeah, from 74 to 2011.

That is a fucking long time. That is 35 years. Or, I'm sorry, 36 years, 37. How fucking long is it? That is 40 years almost. Yeah. Yes, it's 30. It's 37 years.

But it's crazy. It's a long time. So the first documented case of a cesarean abduction happened in 1974. It was a woman named Winifred Ransom attacked a woman named Margaret Sweeney and cut out the unborn child. Sweeney regained consciousness at that point. So the Ransom woman repeatedly beat her in the head with a hatchet and then shot her. Oh, my God. That's crazy.

Then they ended up finding her. She buried Sweeney's body underneath her own kitchen floorboards at that point. So then she confessed to her husband that she'd killed Sweeney, but she said it was to protect the baby for some reason. After three days, he decided to go to the police, and they found the hatchet and the body and all that sort of shit. He decided to go to the police and they found the hatchet and the body and all that sort of shit. And how afraid of his wife is he that he lasted three days with that information? Yeah. He's like, this is crazy.

I would last 30 minutes. Yeah. You did what? It would take three minutes to soak in. I'm going to go get some shit at the store that we can just relax and talk about this. And I would head straight to the police office. Well, she ended up being diagnosed with schizophrenia and she was acquitted on the basis of insanity and sent for a very short period to a psychiatric hospital she buried a woman in her floorboards man that's crazy uh wow uh what that's what happened that's what happened that was back then that was before

you know that was in Sweden, too. Did I say Sweden? No, it wasn't in Sweden. Her last name was Sweeney. Right. This happened in the States, man. That's absurd. Sweeney in Sweden.

Okay. So another psychiatrist here said that he's an expert on child murder. That's a wonderful fucking specialty. Expert. Expert. He's an expert on child murder. That's a wonderful fucking specialty. Expert.

He described the act of fetal theft as the maternal instinct gone wrong. He said they are typically women who can't have children or who have lost a child. Their longing to be mothers develops into a determination to get a baby. And often nowadays they'll search through online chat groups. The baby they think will complete them and make them a whole person. And it's a thing that happens, man. It's fucking wild. Another woman here, Jesus Christ, it's 1974.

This is a nurse named Norma Jean Armistead, wanted to please her married boyfriend, who was married and had a family. He threatened to leave her. She thought that he'd stay if she had a baby. So, problem is, she already had a hysterectomy. So, that's a problem. So, she targeted a woman named Mary Childs, who came to the hospital where she worked to give birth. This woman, Armistead, drugged her, stole the infant, and then replaced it with a stillborn infant.

Ew. She fucking did a swappily-do on an infant. With a dead baby. She was like, take your live baby, dead baby, and fucking was like, oh no, your baby's dead, and then took her baby home. This is fucking crazy. She was a nurse and trusted, so no one questioned her. Oh my God.

No one questioned her. However, it ended up that the guy who she was doing it for wanted a boy, and this was a girl. All that work for nothing. She did it again. She tried to do it again. She got away with that. She didn't get caught for that. She did it again.

This time, she checked herself and a new baby into the hospital, but the doctor found no evidence she'd given birth. She did that whole thing. And police linked her to the murder, and then it all went from there. So she even faked a medical record of her pregnancy nine months earlier, and then used hospital files to find her next victim. She's fucking out there now.

Wow. Anyway, July 95, Darcy sees her biological mom again in prison she's not in there but she comes to see her in july 1995 and she uh is in there and uh they talk and i guess i don't know re yeah whatever the fuck so april night she wanted to bring a a cake with a file in it with a file in it yeah here you go maybe we can be friends again here you go i brought you know that's the cake is this is the adopted mother damn it this is the real mother fuck that would have been so perfect if it was the adopted mother just a really fancy

cake with a file in it fuck so now april of 98 she's seeking a new trial again this time she's got a criminal law professor as her new attorney from the University of New Mexico Law School. And Barbara Bergman is her name. And she's real aggressive with this sort of shit. And she says that she doesn't even blame the attorneys. But she said this is about three caring but overwhelmed trial attorneys that didn't give her the proper amount of you know whatever right yeah she also says that pierce's genetic predisposition to schizophrenia would have made a difference if presented a trial she said there's a reasonable probability the outcome

of that trial would have been different which i don't think so she cut a baby out with a car key those people were sending her to fucking prison no matter what she did. She could have got up and took her clothes off and danced and put a fuck. It doesn't matter. They would have said she's fine. She's still going to jail. So they said that two defense and two prosecution expert witnesses in psychology all had excellent credentials and that

the three public defenders gave an incredibly detailed exhaustive history of pierce's trouble this is the prosecution saying no no need for this they uh they said that uh they even called her one attorney an intellectual standout they even said so they were like her lawyers were her lawyers were great no he's stand out heout. He's great. Oh, standout. I guess he could stand out. I thought he said stand down. I was like, wait, what? He's a certified idiot. Check his driver's license.

So, fuck, man. They also said that she was examined by six different psychological experts before trial and, quote, no one assumed she had a normal genetic history. Pierce lies frequently, lies well, and lies to her own advantage. That is still the case. That's what the prosecutor says in a prosecutor says that in rebuttal. Yeah. So, yeah, this they bring up the juror again and they bring that up specifically on a way that to say that her attorneys were incompetent for not putting all that together with that whole thing.

So, yeah, I want to get back to him for one second. He said that he'd seen people. They asked him, did you say that you'd seen people who are 10 times worse than her being in a mental hospital and cured? And he said, right. And they said, did you say that to him? And he said, yes. And they said, you stated that you've seen people far more crazy than Darcy Pierce, far more insane than her. They get cured. And he says, yes, I have. Yes, I have.

And that and that has they have received shock treatments and they are well, they have already gotten over it and died. And I have seen them in my lifetime. Yes. And they said, OK, again, they said, did you tell him that you had a personality that you personally had electric shock therapy and he said no i didn't tell him that i told him that i'd seen people who had electric shock therapy treatments treatments that were 10 times worse than darcy pierce and she'd be fine so uh then they said uh he said i asked do you think she could be cured and he said yes i've seen people ten times worse he's like that was a conversation what the fuck you know this is ridiculous

so they said also the ineffective assistance of counsel like we said that they didn't get deep enough into her mental state anyway the state says mental or not says you fuck out of here with that shit stick around you're sticking in prison for a while Anyway, the state says, mental or not, says, fuck out of here with that shit. Stick around.

You're sticking in prison for a while. 2019, there's a new bill passing in New Mexico. What? 395 inmates, many of them convicted murderers, would have the chance to get out of prison if it makes it through, this whole bill. It's a bill that would allow people sentenced to life behind bars to be released after 30 years and be up for parole. He believes the bill takes a lot of discretion away from the parole board that they have to keep people locked up and people are worried about it. The head of the New Mexico District Attorneys Association said this is a public safety issue. These are the worst of the worst. People serving a life sentence received a life sentence for a reason.

these are the worst of the worst people serving a life sentence received a life sentence for a reason now i would be okay with this law if it was excluding violent crimes right like you know if you cut a baby out of a woman maybe you need to time out for however long we decide if you do some crazy shit if you're a serial murder if you're all these different things if you killed a kid and there's a lot of but if you're let's say you got busted dealing drugs a bunch of times and they sentence you to fucking life in prison that's ridiculous or you know three strikes type of thing or i don't know so they say that quote in new mexico law a life sentence is 30 years seems bizarre but that's the definition of a life sentence so instead they keep them in there and they don't actually get out. And they said that he maintains a parole board. Parole board will still have enough of a say to keep people like Darcy Pierce behind bars. And he says, quote, we just codified what the parole board needs to do is simply put it in writing why the person is not let out. let them out you just have to take a look at them after 30 years okay which that's that is fair yeah i don't care if it's a five minute meeting that's that's good we shouldn't just put people in a dark

hole and go well there you go just throw them some food every once in a while let them die in there yeah unless there's you know the john wayne gacy's of the world there's some extenuating circumstances to that but for the most part yeah sure yeah um sam ray is upset about it he said my family has been through hell just this week alone i've broken out crying for very little reason, just spontaneously. And yeah, he fears that she might get out of prison now. Sam said, I didn't think she was going to get out. She's still there now. There are two different books written about this whole case. They came out around the same time one is called hush little baby and the other one is called lullaby and good night no yeah that's what i mean the lullaby and good night one i believe uh sam ray had a part in that they talked to him a lot he was supportive of this book and then the hush little baby one was written by a reporter named j Carrier. And yeah, it's a little, not exploitative, but it's a little Lifetime movie-ish,

his language and shit like that. But Lullaby and Good Night, they're about the same thing. They were both $4.99 when they came out. Put it this way, this is a Carrier sentence. He says that it was really hot and he says the kind of day for a bad temper and sick desire when fat people cursed their fate and even skinny people sweated afternoon thunderstorms cracked the mountains before and after great white wet dumplings floated in a blue soup sky well fuck is that necessary is that his name's jim carrier that's

jim carrier yeah that's come on dude jesus man you just described the fucking weather in the desert and that's just i get that you want to be flowery and you took creative writing and they told you to be descriptive but that's too much it's just too much so i don't want to read the part where there's murder yeah it's just too much so he also he wrote some other shit like that but uh they're both available one is available for uh hush little baby is available for three dollars and 61 cents on amazon right now no kindle only like the paperback really and then paperback of lullaby and good night is four dollars and 19 cents at the moment yeah i have to show you the cover of it

because i turned the monitor towards you look at that sweet jesus there's even a picture of the baby on it dude it's like darcy's head with a baby on the side the blood chilling true story of a woman who wanted a baby badly enough to murder for one lullaby and good night looks like looks like the cover like a misfits album to the fog it yeah it's got it's like pink and with the letters it does looks like a punk album so sex pistols cd comes with it at this moment in time uh she is in prison she's in the facility is nmwcf so new mexico women's some shit we don't know corrections corrections facility there you go uh her offender number is four three six uh four three six three five in case you're looking and her mnmcd number is three six six seven eight like i said she's in

prison at the moment she looks a shitload different now. Yeah, I had a bus driver in like the fifth grade that she looks a lot like right now. It's a lot different of a look than she had before. We'll put it that way. So anyway, she's in prison and Sam Ray is raising his now raised his kids. I mean, Christ, Luke is shit. 85. Good God. Luke goddamn 72 36 years old half of that he's 36 exactly half he's 36 years old and uh miracle amelia is 34 years old right now think about that like it's crazy so uh please though honestly because those are the names of the people and obviously all that shit don't bother these people if you find them somewhere leave them the fuck alone they have

had enough shit in their life and uh yeah don't bother them please as we say with all anytime there's like living kids that were kids of victims and shit we're like never bothered these people don't call i mean a lot of times they reach out to us, and we'll be honest with you, 90% of the time it's very positive. And the ones lately have been wow sweet. Not to brag, but we're respectful. Yeah, they're really nice. I mean, so anyway, just don't bother these people. So that said, hope you enjoyed that crazy, insane New Mexico story.

I feel like I have New Mexico dust in my throat. Yeah, it's a lot. Me too. I feel very... I got some juniper pollen going on. It's sandy, gritty. I don't know if juniper makes pollen. It's gritty in there. Sand and pollen mixed together. So, that said,

if you like that story, let the world know about it. Get on Apple Podcasts. That purple icon. Give us five stars. It really does help drive you up the charts. And we have no idea why. But thanks for everyone that does it and everyone who continues to do that for us. Also, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com where you can get all of your crime and sports and small town murder merchandise. And you can get, most of all, tickets to live shows.

We're all over the goddamn place. The one I'm going to push that's one of the first ones we're doing is Tempe. Is there tickets for that? I don't even know if there's any left. Yeah, I think they're on the website TempeImprov.com. We have tickets. It's a crime and sports and small town murder in one night. Back-to-back shows.

Get your asses there and sell that fucking improv out. That's our home place and sell that fucking improv out that's our it's our home place and all that sort of thing so when we go to our home clubs we got to rock that shit like they got to be like damn we had to turn people away and beat them up you know beat them with clubs to get them out of here that's what we need from you people so thank you for everyone that does that and all the other shows to get your tickets right now for all of those and also check out the upsideside Down Digital Network. Follow it on social media and find out our new shows.

We're very excited. Game of Crimes came out this week with their first two episodes. Really interesting. They did George Young there, the blow guy that Johnny Depp played in Blow. And they do this crazy in-depth interview, more in-depth than he's ever done in his life because he knows these guys so well. That's episode number two. And then he just died. And then he died.

It's literally his last interview that he does. And it's a long one. He died like a month later. And he gets into the detail of everything with these guys. I mean, because they know what questions to ask because they know the story. So it's amazing. And then we're really excited. July 9th.

It's coming. Yeah. Our new show, the second show we're releasing, and it's one and one. It doesn't matter. They're both great. But life after Happy Face. We're so excited for this show hosted by Melissa Moore and Dr. Laura Petler.

Melissa Moore is the Happy face killer's daughter. So she has a unique insight that, honestly, you're not going to really find many places, and especially in the world of podcasting. I've got to be honest with you guys. She's going to be a big deal. People are going to be coming to her for information on particular crimes that happen later.

It's true. She's great. She's great. She really is great. And you want to get i mean when she told us about the show not only did we want it on the network we just said i can't wait to listen to even if we don't end up making you know making this work together or something we'll be listening to your show because it's really it's amazing so july 9th check that out

life after happy face that's coming out. We're very excited. Also, patreon.com slash crimeandsports is where you get all of the good stuff. And the last couple days, or a few days ago, we put up a couple episodes of really good stuff that you can hear. First of all, for Crime and Sports is a Patreon bonus. And you'll get that as well because you get everything for $5. We have the All Paternity Team to honor Father's Day because that was the week before. And that is athletes who have the most children and take the least amount of responsibility for them, for the most part. It's a lot of people fucking up, and it's very funny. And then for the Small Town Murder one, it's one of the funniest things we've ever done.

Honestly, I couldn't breathe after we were done with that. murder one it's one of the funniest things we've ever done honestly i couldn't breathe after we were done with that it is one star motel reviews from towns that we have discovered on small town murders so you know like sarah mississippi and like you know we had a bunch of them it's crazy all over the point of new mexico peru indiana we we are west Virginia, we have ones. Those are good ones, too. So check those out. They are hilarious. I mean, it sounds crazy, but you're going to die laughing. It's so goddamn funny.

It's so funny. Check it out. Do that. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports right now. Anybody over the $5 level gets access to everything. And no matter what, you get a shout out as well. Because you're a producer, and goddamn it, we love you. And to you how much we love you jimmy's going to mispronounce your name while trying valiantly to get it correct and uh if you just want to be a producer and get a

shout out and also earn great karma and our undying affection you can do that as well over at paypal using our email address crimeandsports at gmail.com. And that said, I think it's time, Jimmy. Oh, wait, social media. Follow us on social media as well, at Crime and Sport, or at Small Town, at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Murder on Instagram,

at Small Town Pod Facebook. There you go. Also follow the Upside Down Digital Network. I don't know that handle, but if you Google it, I'm sure it's there. Anyway, that said, it is time. Jimmy, hit me with the list of people who are so wonderful that would never cut anything out of my body. Jimmy, hit me with them right now, please.

This is a feeling that lets you keep your kid. After that story, I need it. Christ. Executive producers this week are Reagan Shalkley. She and her husband are celebrating their 23rd anniversary congratulations and she also lost 120 goddamn pounds whoa entirely different person congrats holy shit getting healthy good for you congratulations on everything your life is working out blair and alan are getting married uh celebrating their zero anniversary damn you

got a lot long way to go look at those two. It's not pill climb, folks. Buckle up. Blair has gotten a shitload of people to listen to the show, including Melanie and Brittany, so thank you, Blair, and congratulations. Thank you. I'll give you congratulations when you make it to 23 years. Until then, buckle up.

Also, Pauly Egan played bag man to get us Guido Magliozzi. He made fourth place money in the golf tournament and Pauly bet on him and gave us a portion of his winning so thanks Pauly. Well we appreciate that thank you. I imagine because he's an Italian guy Taint Gomez Rodriguez the third of Holden Shit Moving Shit LLC donated

Howie Feltersnatch Von Penis Mick Rodriguez Jr. donated That's a very prestigious donation there. Of course Jordan Bennett Snatch, Von Penis, Mick Rodriguez Jr. donated. That's a very prestigious donation there. Of course, Jordan Bennett. Thank you, Jordan. Chelsea Tucker and Angie Griggs.

You guys are unbelievable. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're the best. Life's blood, man. Thank you, everybody. Hero leadership stuff. You guys are amazing. Thanks.

Jason at cjtacticalsupply.com. He just started a new business in this stuff because he works for a very large tire supplier. And obviously, COVID, he realized that things are temporary. So he started his own gig. So good luck, Jason. Good for you. He's an amazing guy. I love that. That's the guy.

You met him in Indy. He had a neck injury and he whispersispers do you remember him oh i do remember that guy he's fucking rad he's the coolest guy and his kids yeah yeah that guy was cool as fuck yeah uh other producers obvious also obviously why obviously obviously our father mckay mckay mckay he uh grady and his bride aunt ester it's a mash reference is it all right father okay all right i hate mash but yes rabbi shmul all of each i'm gonna google where the fuck that's from and his bride, Aunt Esther, James. It's a mash reference. Is it? All right. Father Mulcahy. All right. I hate mash, but yes. Rabbi Shmuel Alevich.

I'm going to Google where the fuck that's from. Also, Carl Kirshner, Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Thomas Smith, Tanya Espinoza, and Sonny Johansson, Marcel Destin, Peter Stone in Cancun. Congrats, Peter. God damn it. Cancun sounds beautiful. Frank, the South African bird washer. He said that he calls himself that because you said bird watcher one time on the show

and it came out bird washer. I don't know if he ridiculed you for it, but Frank is now going to do that in the credits. I'm sure. Nothing I say isn't ridiculed, so I'm sure some fucking... You talk for three hours and let me know if you mispronounce a word and then have fucking 20,000 people tweeted at you. How'd you like that in your fucking life? South Africa is going to rip you for it. Jesus Christ.

C.J. Buford broke up with his girlfriend and he's miserable about it. How about that? No, we're sorry. Hang in there, C.J. Hang in there. And I hope she comes back. Emily Saunderson, keep going. This life isn't for the weak.

You know that. Wes Rich, Cristobal Ibarra. BS. No name, just BS. Jude Kendall. Nancy Weaver. Tim Falkmer. Tim. No, he said that. Joni Spurgeon.

Ashley Veo. Paul and Jamie Lane. Yvonne. Yvonne. Ivan. Ventura. Cassandra Collimer. Del McGeechie.

Nikki Faust. Katie Clay. Sabrina. Oh, boy. What is that? Sagandura. It's never going to happen. I'm sorry, Sabrina.

Evan Pesera, Mike Sheehan, Brena, Brennan, Riley, Reagan True, Gane with no last name, Jacob Johnson, Laura Stern, Kyle Alexander, Nicole McClintock, Julie McIntyre, Teresa Basalta, oh boy, Jesse Atkinson, Joey, nope McIntyre, Teresa Basauta. Oh, boy. Jesse Atkinson's Joey. Nope, that's Joe. Klobucowski. Andrew with no last name. Chris Krueger.

Nick with no last name. Elliot Hampson. Hampson, N with no last name or first name. Just the letter N. This show brought to you by the letter N. Mary Yatalo. Hannah Chikinski. Jasinski. P. Dizzle, Faux Rizzle, Holmes Slizzle, Allison Matthews, Shannon Bunting, Megan McCarthy, Micah Beam,

Tracy Beckham, Beckhorn, what is that, an R and an M, Moji, Moji, Cigar Mike, what is it? Tracy B, I said. I think that's what it is. Gunru, 6891. Phillip Reed from the Brothers Reed Band. Anthony Murray. Zach Vider.

Vider. Jesus. G Love of the Special Sauce, I imagine. Trevote Memote. Memote. Memit. Joshua Williams. Kelly Walton.

Dennis Wojma. This week. What the fuck? Susan Fawcett.ica einboden austin mcleod jason delavecchia a pig pig carlo with no last name debbie galloway elias elias cruz frisco with no last name joe what the fuck dent delphid gel jingar what del jingaro i'll let elias or whatever the fuck you mispronounce elias go because you had a hard one right after it. So I'll let that, I'll let making fun of you go on that one. Chrissy Lane, Julie Priestley, Kyle F., Carrie Weathersby, John Zephyr, Megan Mitchell, Jason Klein, Andrew Curley, Raina Gonaturic, Wendy Frederick, Laura with no last name, Natalie Gordon, Sarah Carnahan, Victoria Boom, Carl Cow, Kai, Hart, Flood, Noah Casanova,

Sandy Antonelli, Marla, Maria, Doe Flinger Doe Flinger Cammy Applequist Darcy Kirk Alex Oliveira Angie Solis Jessica Seidel Kendra Baxter Matt Roselle

Janet S Felicia Zimmerman Rebecca Fisher Jimmy Kelly Don Burkett Jason Ann Bridget Jason Cain also

Danielle Uh with a shitload of U, Sam Bevan, Kyle Rogers, Spot the Dalmatian, Michael Walker, Robert Baratheon, Justin Lamonte, Kiana Mason, Waltzy G, Jacob Paul. This is brutal, man. Heather Halmstead. You're doing great. Katie Adams. George Miller. David Klein. Jim with no last name.

Roberta Hurlburt. Brian Meneer. Cole Doherty. Brian what? Brian Milne. Mandy with no last name. Shauna Kinloch. Ryan Patrick Heavey.

Mark O'Neill. Shelby with no last name. Mary Leshulk. Gretchen Snyder. Tara Braun. Brown. Michael Brooks. Tristan Esterbrook, Olivia Hahn, Kevin Ferguson, Tanya Buckley, Betsy Holscher, Michael G. Blue Jr., CeCe Ladd, Melissa Follin, Jennifer Robertson, Kay New, Aaron Fogle, Mitchell Lawless, Justin Schmidt, Chip or Sip, Madrigal, Rusty Shackleford, Aaron Cottingham, Sarah Schacht, Paula Bover, Sonia Cox, Thomas, what, Cy Bart, Brian Shue, Anthony Padale, Gina Proulard, what the fuck is happening, Charmi Zielinski, Lynn with no last name, no, that's

Lloyd with no last name. Samantha Raby or Rabe, Morgan Fears, Casey Beer or Bear, Tom Hammer, Domaine, Tony Senior, Brenna Michelle Pebbles, 0724, Phil McCracken, are you happy? Allison

Villarreal, Jessica Duffy, yes, Mary Boland, Witch Police Radio, Gavin with no last name, Stephanie Hedges, Jared Braithwaite, Joshua DeLand, Ward 3, Amanda Ashton, Andrea Calvert, Luke Shingle, Shannon Valentine, Valerie Boyd, Norty N, MJ McGrath, Jerry Lana Reardon, Jenny Decker, Elizabeth Gordon, Ananda, Laura Egbert, Lucas Patoza. Why are these all so difficult, Liz Steeman, Megan with no last name, Jen Cordova, Kelly Martin, Jennifer Ward, Alex Knapp, Madison Ford, Boner on the Beach, James, Robert Shirley, Crow Bones, Crow Bones and Turkey Foot, Aaron Lozleben, Josh Gentry, Samuel Patek, Foe Cooper, Kristen

Rooney, Chris Hansen, Becky Farrell, and Nathan Giles, and the rest of our patrons, obviously. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Honestly, we're blown away by it. We appreciate it so much, and just thank you for all that you do for us, and we hope that what we could do is somewhat reciprocal.

That's all we're hoping for. We're hoping that you enjoy what we do as much as reciprocal that's all we're hoping for we're hoping that you that you enjoy what we do as much as we enjoy what you do so thank you very much for that we're we're very happy for that look at wow jesus i just look my hair is very puffy you are very tall today you're a good four inches taller i got like a four inch puff going on on the top of my head i got weird guinea hair just puffs out like a fucking thing so that said i just caught a glimpse of myself in the computer monitor reflection. I was just like, Jesus Christ, look at my head.

So that said, I'm just excited. What if somebody was so excited they needed to talk to you? How could they get all the time on the Internet at Wisman sucks on Twitter and Instagram? What about you? You can find me at Jimmy P is funny. And you can just Google us if you want to talk to us like that. And you'll find our stuff and then we'll talk to you and you'll probably be disappointed in

who we are as people so that's the way that goes that said it's been a crazy episode and I mean it's always crazy but I feel like a little extra crazy this week so thank you for hanging in there and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure. Bye.

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