Small Town Murder - #234 - Sickness, Solvent & Snuff Films - Borrego Springs, California

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

This week, in Borrego Springs, California, a very sick person hatches a very sick plan to lure his prey to a secluded spot, and inflict untold horrors upon them. It turns out even worse than the plan, but the big problem is that this definitely not the first time. A history of sordid attempts to take creepy pictures, and maybe make some snuff films, blows this whole thing wide open, and even more disturbing information is unearthed! Along the way, we find out that you better not turn your porch light on in this town, that you shouldn't take a creepy person's offer to take nude pictures of you, and that you can't be your own alibi!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman  New episodes every Thursday!  Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail]  Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!  Follow us on...  twitter.com/@murdersmall  facebook.com/smalltownpod  instagram.com/smalltownmurder  Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Borrego Springs, California, a very sick person with a very sick plot lures his prey into a dangerous situation

where about the worst things imaginable happen. And this isn't his first time. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.

I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us this week. We are excited, as always, for another crazy... This is nuts, this one. This one's been on the schedule for a few months, and I've looked at it and went, oh, boy, it's that one coming up, huh? Oh, man, this is a crazy episode. It is just insane. So thank everybody for joining us. First of all, thank you for your reviews this week. Apple podcast, that purple icon. They help. So give us five stars if you can. It does.

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yeah that's that's the meme that's always out there so that's basically what he did check that out and all that also check out ps i hate this movie because i had to watch mamma mia and that was really disturbing so i just don't get what disturbing so I don't want to listen to ABBA songs anymore Jimmy ever check all that out and patreon is cooking right boy oh boy there are some good episodes that we put up this week and if you have you will subscribe to patreon you get

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And in addition to that, the amazing bonus content, you also get a shout out at the end of the show because I mean, you've earned our undying really gratitude. So Jimmy will mispronounce your name terribly while trying to pronounce it properly. So that's what you get for that. And we'll be excited to do that. So thank you for everyone that's done that. And if you just want to make a donation and get your shout out,

you can do that at PayPal using our email address, crime and sports at gmail.com. Right. Quickly, the disclaimer donation and get your shout out, you can do that at PayPal using our email address. Crime and sports at Gmail dot com. Right. Quickly, the disclaimer and to get to the show. We have a lot of it, but this is this is a comedy show. It definitely is. It's also a murder show. So, yes, these things happen.

We're not making things up to make it comedic or anything like that. And at the same time, we're not going to hear of some horrible murder. And, you know, and then the skin was removed from the body. And we're like, oh, that's hilarious. And that's not what we're doing here. This there's plenty of stuff that goes on around a murder. That's not the actual killing. That's very funny.

Like the idea of I can get away with murder. That's pretty funny when someone decides that that's going to be their plan. So we're going to make fun of those type of people. What we're not going to do, we're going to go out of our way not to do is we're not going to make fun of the victim or the victim's family. Why? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. There you go. There you go.

That's how that works. If that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a wild, crazy story and have a good time. And if it doesn't, if you think true crime and comedy should never go together, maybe we're not for you. Maybe we are, though. I just don't want to hear any bitching later. So, that said, I think it's time to sit back, clear the lungs, and shout, Shut up and give me murder. All right.

Very good. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. Shall we? I'm surprised we're not going on a trip right now. Let's do it. go on a trip, Jimmy. Shall we? I'm surprised we're not going on a trip right now. Let's do it. Going on a trip. We're coming from Michigan last week, up north, and now we're going to go out west again. We're going to be bouncing back and forth across the country.

We're going to California. Hell, yeah. It's been a long time since we've been to California here. This is Southern California. Wow. But not like, you know, don't think of like beaches and, you know, bikini Southern California. This is east of that. This is the desert.

This is the desert area. This is not good. God forsaken, horrific, you know, space level. Imperial Valley, it's bad. Space level desert. It's about an hour and 45 minutes to San Diego. Okay. So it's there. About two hour and 45 minutes to San Diego. Okay. So it's there.

About two hours and 40 minutes to LA. All right. And about nine hours all the way up to Antelope, California. Our last California episode, which was episode 167. This is 234. Yeah. April 15th, 2020. So quite a long time ago here.

What is this place called? It uh borrego springs california it's very small it's in the middle of a big state park it's in san diego county uh area code 442 and it's just it like i said it's beetlejuice desert like you know stepping out of the house and they even have a there's even a sandworm sculpture. We'll talk about it. Motto in this town. Yeah. A little bit, you know, a little cheeky,

a little nod to maybe some lost tourist quote. And you thought you were going to the beach. No. Not that California. There's sand, but there's no ocean connected to it it's just sand you're about six million years too late i'm sorry almost you just missed it so uh history of this town here very quickly because we have a lot of story to get to this village is located on the floor of the borrego valley which is widely uh it's the western most extent of the uh sonoran desert so you're on the western edge of the sonoran desert here before it

turns into that you know toward the beach southern california where there's like trees and trees and even even scrub oaks just something like that not just barren any sign of tropical uh wildlife and climate exactly it's recognized borrego springs as a designated international dark sky community what does that mean by the international dark sky association which sounds like yeah well it sounds like people are going to definitely get diddled is what it sounds like. But it's not that. It's that there's no stop. It sounds to me like tinfoil hats, James. No, it sounds like there's actually no stoplights in the town.

Wow. And at nighttime, lighting is kept to a minimum to protect the views of the night sky. It's a place where you can go and look at the stars, basically. Where you get fined if your porch light is on. Yeah, there's light pollution there. So you can be fined for light pollution. You've put light into the air. Fine and lightning bugs and shit. Meanwhile, it's in the middle of the desert.

If you drove five minutes out of town, you're in the middle of the desert. There's not a light to be seen. The sky, you'll see every star that's ever existed remember we drove back from la uh after doing that show with dan and hollywood and we pulled over and there was fucking nothing i pissed like not even turned away from the road there was nothing there we turned off and it was like it was like a movie like there's just nothing it was just uh some concrete that just ended into sand. And that was it. We were like, okay, I guess this is where you stop. So they used the area east of town.

Apparently, it was used in World War II for a Navy training center. Okay. And they had the Borrego Valley Maneuver Area. And after World War II, finally, electricity arrived in 1945. Jesus Christ. 1945, I just said. That, finally electricity arrived in 1945. Jesus Christ. 1945, I just said, is when electricity arrived. There's a nuclear bomb being dropped on other countries. They don't have electricity.

There was already television in 1945. That had just started and was going out there. We figured out how to split an atom and project an image into your living room, and they still didn't have a light to turn on in this entire place. That is wild. They have something called Christmas Circle, which is like this big circle where everything happens in. It's like a road with a big round area in the middle. I don't know. Ricardo Brasida has made more than 100 large metal statues of animals that can be found at Galleta Meadows Estates.

And they have different themes. A lot of them are prehistoric animals like dinosaurs and shit like that. And other ones are desert things. They have one where there's a big scorpion and a big other bug swearing off about to fight. They're like metal. They're huge metal. Another one's a huge sand dragon, they call it. But it's the sandworm from Beetlejuice.

So I don't know if Beetlejuice got it from here or if he put it in because I think it's Beetlejuice. Tim Burton got it from this place. Really? Because at one point, I'll post it on the social media on the post of that and it's uh it looks exactly like a shot from beetlejuice at one point it's exactly like i suppose you just gotta find the half out the build date of the of the worm versus uh yeah beetlejuice pre or post 1987 or whatever it was it's that it. So reviews of this town here.

Here are, they're weird, these reviews. The five-star review doesn't, it sounds like snarky. It's very strange. Three stars here. Quote, I've lived here for 15 plus years. And if you're looking forward to the desert, okay, that's a weird line. Borrego Springs has a first-person point of view at desert. In the months of May, August, May through August, the temperatures rise up to 110 degrees Fahrenheit months of September through April when it has cool weather.

That's three stars. So, I don't know. In the summer, it's hot. In the winter, not so much. That's pretty much it. It's the desert, man. Two stars. In the winter, it's fairly cool and pleasant spelled wrong.

But in the summer, that's when the heat waves and sandstorms hit us hard. Yeah. That doesn't sound good. Like everywhere. And here's the five star review, which sounds sarcastic. It's very weird. Five stars, mind you quote i love how intimate and caring my hometown of borrego is although there may although there may not be

many opportunities while in high school the opportunities once you leave are endless that's not a compliment to your town once you leave high school or once you leave the town i feel like once you leave the town because listen to this i i've read it like high school at first then i read the rest of it and i'm like this is this person like did they think five is bad one is good uh this community supports you in the decisions you choose to make with your life i do not believe you can find such loving and pairing people anywhere else fun is only a drive away i don't know whether you like this place or not but all right can't have fun here and there's no opportunity but it's terrific fun is only outside this town that's all five stars love it uh people of this town

population 2077 damned souls here down seven percent since 1990 wow and this is a place where you definitely have to really like this area this type of thing i want to be in an isolated little town in the middle of the desert and i love it or else you'd fucking lose your mind and blow your brains out here uh female and male populations are pretty normal but the age is very high. Median age here, 59, which normally it's almost 38 in the rest of the country. So the demographics, tons of people over 65. There's also a lot of kids here, too. So there's some young people that have moved in. And I think it's because it's affordable.

And there's nothing really within two hours of San Diego that's affordable. No, there's not. No market. nothing really within two hours of san diego that's affordable no there's not no market so i think i think some young families have kind of moved out to here just because it's the only place they could afford and uh married populations high it's like 55 percent so it's it's mainly kind of that family kind of a thing here uh single with no children jim. Yeah. 2.4%. Oh, my. Wow. Good luck with that needle in that haystack.

Yeah. Enjoy. Now, race of this town, it's about 75% white, 6% black, which for the middle of the desert, that's more black people than I expected, to be honest, in a weird little town in the desert. But that's still half of average. And 15.6% Hispanic. So it's more diverse than you'd expect for a tiny desert hamlet.

45% of the people here are religious. I don't know if they just... Half the people think there's no God in the desert, and the other half see God in the desert. Yeah. I don't know. Those people just need a glass of water. Yeah're just they're just seeing mirages it's very thirsty 26 27 catholic wow so that is that right man catholics are the baptists of the southwest sonoran desert lands apparently wow very strange so many catholics uh 0.6 percent jewish

almost yeah almost a 1.5 percent eastern faith so that would be like buddhism and things like that and that's a lot of people too are kind of a lot of hippies are out in this area and uh 0.7 percent islam so like i said more diverse than most little desert towns. It's in San Diego County. So last election, it goes in with that. 60% voted Democrat, 37% Republican, 2% independent. Unemployment rates about normal with the rest of the country somehow out here. Household income, though, a little bit low. Normally, it's about $57,500.

Here, $38,264. A little bit, James. That's very low. Yeah, that's $20,000 under. That's bad stuff. That's tough. And the jobs here, very strange. Normally, the rest of the country, 1.3% of the jobs are agriculture, forestry, fishing, and hunting.

Here, it's 18.3% of the jobs. So I don't know if that counts as like people who work at the state park that's right there. That might be that. Gathering brush for firewood. Yeah. Well, either that or gathering wood for the 20.7% of the people who do construction here. Which you just have to fix things that are in the sun in the dry for that long yeah in phoenix your house just rots away because it's just being eaten by the sun right people in the in the

midwest and in the new england like your roads disintegrate from snow and such but the heat freezes and then doesn't so it contracts out of a road oh yeah oh heat's bad for it too the road never melts in new york it just doesn't it never melts you're never like don't drive there your tires will sink in no one's ever said that to you anyone nothing that didn't have water on it you know what i mean that's that's crazy but i've heard that in phoenix before absolutely don't drive on that asphalt your tires will sink in getting to be summertime watch out for road gators and that's the tire skins that are fucking everywhere because tires explode yeah 18 wheeler tires yeah so cost

of living in this town is 100 is regular average here it is 103 which is low for california which is a 150 overall for the whole state so very high for middle of nowhere where nobody makes any goddamn money. For the desert, and they didn't get electricity until Hitler was dead. It's different. So median home cost here. Hitler never said they got electricity in that town, did they? He never said that because he was dead before it happened. Median home cost $214,200, which is slightly below.

And if we've convinced you that you need to head on out here and see a metal sculpture of a scorpion fighting a cockroach, we have for you the Borrego Springs, California real estate report. The average two bedroombedroom rental here is $1,480, which is expensive. That's expensive, but it's cheaper to buy a house, you know. That's the highest rental we've ever heard. Yeah, well

no, there's been in Connecticut. Has there? Yeah, in Long Island we had one. I found 5.58 acres of land. It's sand. It's actual sand. And I don't mean like dirt like Phoenix. I'm talking sand like you get in a bucket and build a castle out of. $3,998.

Under four grand for six acres of land. Acres? You're not? What? Acres. Yeah. You didn't say a 100 in there anywhere. No, no.

If you just like, you could build a nice dirt bike track on that if you lived in San Diego. Like four grand and go out there on the weekends with your kids and do jumps and shit, I guess. That's pretty good.

You can buy a 60-inch TV or five acres of land. Or five acres. Yeah. $3,998. I found two-bedroom, two-bath, 1,394-foot. It's a trailer.

It's like a double-wide, but it's one of those that's not going anywhere. Yeah. It's got like a porch built onto it and shit. It's there for a while. Yeah. $30,750. This is unbelievable. So that's not bad.

Then I found a four-bedroom, six-bath. Let's say you really dominate the night sky. 4,660 square feet. Hell yeah. Big old house. Six car garage. Oh my. And a giant lap pool.

This lap pool is as long as the house. It's wild. This giant pool. Like an Olympic sized pool. $1,975,000. Less than one acre of desert, by the way, you get for that. Really? It's not even a big lot.

It's just a big house. It's strange. Things to do in this town. Well, I mean, you can do it this year in October 2021. Maybe. Borrego Days Desert Festival. You can do that all the time. Sign up.

Pandemic be damned. Get out damned get out yep just go sit in the desert doesn't whatever whatever the wind is blowing around out there spores and dust particles is going to be more lethal than really anything but i don't care i'd rather have syphilis than sit in the desert for that long never mind anything else so uh yeah get on out there location is at Christmas Circle. Like we said, everything happens there. Now, I found an about with Borrego Days. Live entertainment, beer garden, car show, children's area, arts and crafts, food sites, vendors, blah, blah, blah.

Here's the pitch. Resort to nature. That's the pitch here. At the annual Borrego Days Desert Festival and Parade. The Borrego Days Desert Festival brings together the best parts of this gorgeous desert town. Beautiful art, world-class hospitality, lovely weather, desert blooms, and, of course, family fun. It's close enough I may give it a run. It's a free festival.

It's all free. Let's see here what is this oh borrego days parade they also i saw there was miss miss borrego days it was like some teenage girl with a sash on on the thing with a crown on her head i was like oh no uh yeah uh wander through the rows of boots and enjoy talented artists a large variety of one-of-a-kind goods refreshing cold brews and beverage gardens oh my god live music will get you in the groove to dance away your day in the shade because it's going to be hot they're close enough to la to book good talent who do they have james that's bad man who the fuck knows parego days parade set as it steps at 10 a.m

a multi-plane flyover jimmy oh you.m. A multi-plane flyover, Jimmy. You're going to have a multi-plane flyover, like a bunch of crop dusters when you're half broken down. It's a free event, so I don't know. Fred's going to get his 47 working. He's got to go. I'm telling you. I told him not to dump poison onto the people, though, while they're eating their fried Twinkies and such. Get your hands off the switches, Fred.

Last time, we all got maced. Stop with the county fair beauty pageants, please, for the love of God. It's got to go away, right? When you see a bunch of old fat guys standing there staring at a 15-year-old going, yep, she sure is purdy. Why are we doing this? George, you raised them right. That one looks good.

Yeah, that one looks real good. I got a behind like the wife, I'll tell you. No. It freaks me out. When you're talking about the farmer grows them good and you're talking about his daughter, that's disgusting. He's like, which one did I grow good? Did I grow my pig or my daughter? Because they both want a ribbon today.

Gross. They both want a ribbon today. Gross. They both want a nice sash I'm going to put up in my living room. That is disgusting. So, oh, my God. Here we go. Admire the beauty of classic cars as they roll through town and wave enthusiastically to catch the eye of the queens and their courts. What the fuck is happening?

The queens and their courts. You're courting the queen with your 56 Chevy? Is there like some sort of weird mating ritual that has to do with classic cars and monarch fantasies? I don't know what's happening right now. Lattice exhaust gets to fuck her this year. I guess so. She's waving. Crime rate, I guess, is what we're interested in.

Beat me by two decibels. Almost got a blow job crime rate i suppose here uh property crimes about one-third high um not very high and then the violent crime rate murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is exactly i mean exactly the national average to the to the point yeah it's it's strange they're they're like don't kill any more people we're gonna go over the average we got our quota what it looks like so that said let's talk about a murder oh boy let's get into this because my god is this a just a twisted mess here um to really get into this we have to start in 1977 okay the story starts before

that and it goes well after that but let's let's just start in 77 and then we'll jump around and we'll tell you all about this so 1977 let's talk about a guy he is 48 years old in 1977 okay so he's born in 29 so yeah that Yeah. That's an older fella. Did he grow up here? In the United States? No, in this town. In California he grows up. Okay.

He grows up in Southern California, but not in this town. Got it. No, this town only has a brief part to play in this murder here, but his name is Fred Berry, I guess, or Bear, but I'm assuming it's Berry for some reason. Douglas, it's B-E-R-R-E is his middle name. And then Douglas is his last name. So Fred Douglas, he is an upholstery shop owner, which gives me immediately when I read a murder case,

since anyone involves an upholstery shop owner, I go immediately Angela Bono thoughts. And I'm like, what the fuck? I pray to Christ you never get a tear in a car seat. I got to go see a serial killer. Never. I will. I will burn a car before I take it to an upholsterer.

Anyone who does upholstery on a car care if you're a listener. I'm worried about you. And I want to check your basement in your backyard because I have never. I just never heard of anybody upholstering anything. Yeah. Just like a car. And the only people I hear it is Angelo Bono. This guy and some guy in the mafia that Richard Kuklinski used to give his cars to to completely strip down and clean and, you know, put new seats in and shit after he shot a guy and got brains on them.

They're all problems. They're all a problem apparently if you give an upholstery guy a hundred bucks he'll clean up brains that's a guy i don't want to fucking be involved with you know that's too it's just too much and then the wolf in pulp fiction seemed to be pretty good at it too oh yeah i'm sure he was very good at upholstery i'm sure if you tore your seat he could fix it yeah that's the problem. So this is also in 1977, and he's doing it in Costa Mesa as opposed to Angelo Bono up in Glendale, California. So they're living parallel, simultaneous lives here. He lives in Costa Mesa.

He's been married for almost 30 years. Wow. There's another thing that's like a similar. Angelo Bono wasn't married for 30 years, but he always had a wife. He had like six wives by the time he was done here. So he always had a wife hanging around somewhere. He needs to find he needs help is what Fred needs. project he's working on and uh he does this because in addition to being an upholsterer he fancies himself an amateur amateur photographer yeah as well this this story just it's it's like angelo bono and leonard lake raised some hell seed or ronnie alcala and they got this guy is what it is because it's he's got all the all the trappings so's going to find this woman now to help him. Now, at first, he tells her, look, I need help.

It's not a big deal, but it's just it's hard to approach. I'm a 48-year-old guy, and I need to approach young women, so I need a young woman to wingman it. But he needs to find women to pose for him for pictures. you know um but he needs to find women to pose for him for pictures in uh basically he wants like like he wants lesbian pics he wants to sell girl on girl stuff is what he's looking for so in the 70s pictures of any girl on girl stuff you could sell to people it's not like now where it's like yeah big deal it's super mainstream now yeah it's super mainstream yeah every movie star there's a picture of her like finger in her best friend like it's no big deal like they put

it they were the ones who put it on instagram too nobody cares nobody cares you can't you can't revenge porn that girl she has that on her facebook page yeah no one gives a shit no with you know a girl they don't care like it's not like oh god she she oh she made out with a girl like no one cares whether they're made that shit mad acceptable yeah yeah and it's like whether they're actually you know actually lesbians or they're just you know experimenting or whatever like no one gives it the matchbox 20 concert yeah and if you do care i don't know where what planet you're on what do you give a? Yeah. What bad is going to come of this? So the woman that he finds is Pamela Sue Williams is her name.

She doesn't tell him that, though. She gives him a false name because of the way they met. She gave him a false name right off the bat and then just kind of stuck with it once she found out what he was all about, too. name right off the bat and then just kind of stuck with it once she found out what he was all about too uh they met in july of 1977 when she was hitchhiking in santa ana california yeah never give that guy your name that's what i mean an older guy like that he's like what's your name you want to help me find girls for pictures like that's none of your business and no yeah so what's my name debbie adams is my name that's what he told that's what she told him nice to meet you debbie adams yeah not telling you my fucking name yeah that guy too you have him drop

you off like two blocks from where you're going yeah you know oh no it's right over here yeah drop me off here and it's like a block down and over you don't even have clothes with you yeah yeah no it's my friend lives above it don't worry about it i'm going this is where i'm going yeah so he gave her he they went to a bar so they ended up i've heard this so many times like in the 70s people would meet while they were hitchhiking in like non-murder situations even like they would meet and like oh i met this guy while i while they were hitchhiking and then they're friends for 20 years like it's the weirdest shit in the 70s you just meet people and you'd be like well well since we're driving you want to stop for a drink yeah sure buddy no problem what the that would never happen now in a million years imagine if you

pitch you'd be just staring at him the whole time like don't stab me don't stab me here you go get the fuck out of my car he didn't stab me i've got the guy's name and license plate number in my uber app i still don't want to talk to him yeah i know we know who he is i got ratings on him yeah there's a button i can press to tell on him immediately like still i'm a little leery but this this is like yeah sure i'll have a drink with you she's brave first of all pamela sue williams um so uh anyway they ended up sitting. They have a couple of drinks in a bar for about two hours. Oh, boy.

That's longer than a date. That's like a long. They both got a lot of free time. That's getting to know you. That's the other thing. No one has anywhere to be. You have some shit to do somewhere. You're on the road just looking for a ride, i'm in a car just wandering i guess were you not

going to a destination it's a pretty nice day you got where are you going so anyway they they talk he gives her 50 after about two hours in the bar i don't know if she's hard on her luck or whatever but he ends up giving her 50 bucks i think it's mainly to show that he's like it's just, you know, just to endear her him to her. Sure. Basically like, oh, yeah, so you can trust me. Here's some money. I'm a I'm a nice guy. So at that point, after the fifty dollars and after talking for a couple hours, he switched it up a little bit.

He said, yeah, we're going to find these girls and they can you you know they don't have to actually like to make out with each other just as long as they can do it on camera and i can take a few stills of it because it's not even video it's still frame right so you know just i'm gonna take some pics and all that sort of thing and he goes but you know what i think i'm gonna let's do it this way though he goes because that would be boring there's a lot of pictures of that he goes tell you what i'll do uh instead of that what we'll do is we'll have these girls you know perform a sex act and then uh then we'll kill them in the middle of it oh and i'll take pictures of that while while we're killing them and then you know yeah we'll kill them we'll murder them and then i'll take pictures snuff photos yeah and

then we'll sell these and we'll make a bunch of money. And he said, I'll pay you $1,000 if you find the girls for me. And also do the murdering because I'm the one taking pictures. I can't be actually hacking somebody up and taking pictures at the same time, obviously. That is a tough sell. This is what BTK lacked, was a photographer. This is the problem with him. He would take the camera and take all these weird selfies on the site and polaroid selfies he didn't think i'll find a hitchhiker and pay her a thousand dollars and have her take do photo sessions this is fucking insane because even he was like that

is the hardest sell on earth i'm not that good of selling anything no but a thousand bucks that's a that's ballsy yeah so he told her also during this that he goes you know i want to do this first of all i think this will be a good you gotta work you know you gotta do your 10 000 hours is the thing so you can't i want to work my way up to movies but i can't just jump into that i have no experience i'll start out with the stills you know get a buzz going and then i can jump into a different form of media. Yeah. Yeah.

He says. And what I'd like to do eventually, if you want to be on board with me and make some more money is, you know, sell those pictures and then use that money to make a snuff film. You know? Yeah. He said, this will be good because you you could find the women, obviously. And he said, actually, but not really women. I'm more looking for 13, 14-year-old girls really would be ideal.

This is getting so much worse. He said, I'll settle for, I mean, if you have to, go up to 25. I mean, if you have to. But preferably, comb the middle schools first and if there's no luck there you know if it's not if it's not if it's not recess then you know just head over to the the strip club instead or something i don't know what a youthful 25 year old that can pass for for barely legal yeah this is this is a crazy obvious obviously this is a we're being sarcastic but this is a sick insane monstrous I did not enough adjectives for it plan this is out of the realm of reality by

far crazy and if it is reality oh my god is it scary as shit this isn't you know the scariest thing you could ever think of so he said you know look I need it's not just finding the girls here Debbie Adams so he's not just finding the girls yeah

I need you to find the girls but then we need to get out there and you were the one you're gonna have to like you know cut them up and stuff for me so i can take pictures of it like i said i'm the cameraman and uh you'll get a thousand dollars every time he said once we get a film made we can send that film to canada for developing because you know, apparently the Canadian film development was wide open back then. You could just send them anything and they'd make it for you. And they don't check return addresses for criminals. They just go, oh, here's a movie, eh?

And then they just process it for you and send it right back. Yeah. Oh, let's do it, eh? We don't want to ask any questions. That'd be impolite. No, that's not how it goes. And then he said said we'll distribute it in the united states from mexico he's like he said it's complicated there's the mafias involved it's

very complicated the whole thing and so you know how it is well this involves the entire continent of north america and that's it's a lot yeah all the countries this is why this he was the first actually the first proponent of naftaTA, as a matter of fact. I didn't realize it, but he was the North American Free Trade Agreement. Got it. It's a thing, so there's more. I'm dead. Yeah, sorry.

That was a really good joke, and if you knew what NAFTA was, you would have laughed at it. Don't go throwing government acronyms at me, James. How dare you? That was a good one. Fuck. I went over my audience's head on that one shit i shouldn't do that i try to keep it to a certain level of i i i read some and then every once in a while i fuck up and james i'm still back at fbi and cia slow down with these

five letter ones i've barely got a handle on norad. Slow down. It's not an agency. It's an agreement thing. Right. That's what I'm saying. I'm at agencies, not at treaties and shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, all right. I'll get back to you in a couple of years with NAFTA and we'll talk about it.

We'll do a bonus episode on NAFTA. No, we're not doing a bonus. We're absolutely not. Only reason I've got NAMBLA is because it's hilarious. Yeah. That people would be like, hmm, I'm going to, you know what? I'm going to join that. What?

That's the crazy part of Nambla, that it would exist. And yeah, what kind of sandwiches are we going to give them? I don't know. Probably PB&Js. So she decides that she's going to do this. Okay. And she must need the money. And she decides she's going to, you know, going to do that.

He said, there's a movie that I have that was made in South America where most of these are made where, you know, they kill a woman. And he goes, so I have this thing and this is what we're doing. And, you know, there's I know it's a hot seller on the black market here. So she ends up finding two women and makes plans for them to go to. He has an isolated cabin in the Yucca Valley. Oh, of course he does. 30 miles north of Palm Springs. So she says, hi, two strangers uh there's a man whom you don't know uh he's gonna pay you some money if you come with me to an isolated cabin in the yucca valley

30 miles north of palm springs for a girl on girl photo session seems legit right that's your friend i'm a friend of yours some woman came up to you with that story you go yeah sounds good i'll talk to you tomorrow you want to grab some lunch no for no no follow-up questions required you know how remote joshua tree is more remote than that you keep driving make a left bang a fucking left and keep keep going wow 30 miles north of palm springs which is just a city in the middle of the fucking desert. You drive in, there's nothing, here's Palm Springs, and then it's gone. That's it.

That's the whole thing. Stars go to Palm Springs for the anonymity. You get it. Yeah. That's why Frank Sinatra lived there. It's much more anonymous than that. Yeah, totally. It's the middle of the desert.

I've seen Frank Sinatra's grave actually out there, too. Is it there? Yeah, it's in Palm Springs. You told me that last time we were there shopping for weed. That's right. Yeah, we went and stopped at the weed place, and I told you, yeah, I could find it if I got to the cemetery again. It's just a little plaque. It's not even a lot.

One of these days, James. One of these days. We're going to stop. So anyway, on a Wednesday, they decide, let's do this. But anyway, on a Wednesday, they decide, let's do this. And old Fred Douglas drives Debbie Adams, Pamela Sue Williams in real life, who he thinks is Debbie Adams, and the two women that they've recruited up to the cabin here. It's on a remote dirt road, by the way, this cabin. You have to turn off and drive through the desert on this dirt road and everything like that. And before they got in the car, though, Fred didn't want to scare these women away.

He wanted them to be very comfortable. So he had a 38 pistol that he said he was going to keep, you know, just in case he has to force these women to do what he wants. So he has Debbie Adams hold it, though, because because he's like i don't want to scare them like if you have a pistol hey there's a girl alone in the world you know what i mean like you're protecting yourself they'll understand but if i have a pistol i'm now a creepy old man in an isolated cabin on a dirt road 30 miles north of palm springs with a pistol who wants to take fucking girl on girl pictures of you it's a good thought it's scarier yeah so he says i don't want to freak him out here you go uh keep my gun okay so they get out of the cabin they get inside and uh once

they get inside uh debbie adams pamela sue williams takes out her his 38 and both the women also take out their own pistols because they're undercover police officers well done ladies they're not fucking they're not it's like charlie's angels just busted him now now he's got three women with their guns out on him and they're going hey motherfucker and after about five minutes uh sheriffs and deputies from san bernardino and Orange County come rushing in and it turns into a whole place is imagine the dust cloud, by the way, that this caused all of these cop cars racing in here to save their female colleagues. Oh, my God. From this psycho fucking creep.

Oh, Jesus, man. It must have been a dust cloud. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case,

covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn

between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively

and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Looked like the Brendan Fraser and the mummy were coming. Dude, that's exactly what it would look like. It's just a man is going to form from this. It's going to happen.

I know it. Fucked up, man. So they, yeah, she, Pamela Sue Williams had thought about it and eventually went to the police with her, with this all before it ended up happening. Because he, she said, once he said, I want 13, 14, 15 year old girls. She has a 13 year old daughter. Nice. And at at that point at first she thought he was just talking yeah and he was like she was giving him money or he was giving her money just to hang out so she's like i'll take 50 bucks and listen to this guy yeah yeah who cares so then after a while though she got a feeling that this guy was for real she said and she went to the cops and they said, well, will you help us trap this guy, basically?

And, you know, all this shit. And she, ballsy enough, did it. She could have said, fuck you. I'm moving to another state. And you guys, good luck with you. I gave you the tip. I'm not getting involved. But she decided that she would do it.

She agreed to wear a tape recording device and introduce uh two police women they were uh balcom and reynolds were their names to him as as potential victims for the crime here and uh when she he introduced the police women to him and uh he just told the police women yeah we want you to do some girl on girl stuff. We're making a film in the desert. It's out past Palm Springs. And he offered to pay the girls $500 a piece to participate in about 120 photographs. He said, we get about 120 pictures to see. So we could sell them.

And $4 a picture. That's not enough. That's not enough. That's not enough, no. So they agreed to meet him at the Two Guys parking lot, I don't know what that is, in Garden Grove. And yeah, they talked. The next morning, he and Pamela Sue Williams, Debbie Adams, talked for about 20 minutes. The women arrived, the undercover officers, and the whole time, Williams slash Adams has been wired. So he's been going over the plan of what we're going to do to them and how we're going to do it and when we're going to spring it.

And it's all on tape. Wow. And it included a quote, a gruesome discussion by Douglas of his plan to torture and then film his intended victim's agony that's what he was gonna do like yeah and then sell that shit which is gross wild uh during the conversation he also instructed william slash adams on how to tie them up and then gave her the pistol as well uh and said put this in your purse and keep that. Taught her some box knots. Yep. He told her that he also had a rifle in his car.

And so, you know, we got that as backup, too. And so the agent showed up, the officer showed up, and he drove them off State Highway 247, known as, quote, Old Ghost Road. Perfect. known as quote old ghost road perfect gonna take you down old ghost road to go to an isolated cabin in yucca valley so i can take girl on girl pictures of you and then make ghosts out of you and then make ghosts out of you with my wow that is scary yeah so all the agencies all the law officer law office agencies stood by as they went to the cabin and they all kind of followed from a distance they got up there and then they raced up to uh to go there now what they confiscate they found in a they found a he basically dug a bunker outside this cabin uh they called it a

bunker like ravine where he built like a storage he dug out a big storage thing in the desert and put a tarp over it okay so to store things and uh in there they found a whole big kit that he had including um handcuffs and ropes and chains and shit like that that he had inside the cabin sexual things he was gonna yeah use for pictures and they found knives saws a cleaver and uh basically a bunch of torture equipment were found in a big thing all all together a bunch of shit you would use to torture people yeah and i have a picture of the table full of shit too and i'll post that on social media as well because it's just a whole uh i mean if it if it was just talk he wouldn't

have all this oh no no he was gonna do this he's into yeah he had a he had a whole kit plan he dug out a fucking ravine and hid this shit and had everything all set up now in addition to all the you know potential torture tools here they also find a 22 caliber rifle that he had in the trunk a 38 caliber revolver that he gave to Williams slash Adams. And inside the house, and this is from the LA Times, a great quote, quote, pornographic books detailing bondage and lesbianism, which sounds like it's like a political stance. Right. And a shovel and other digging equipment were found outside the cabin.

So, yeah, he was planning his whole plan was to torture, kill them, dig a hole, dump them in the desert. That was the plan. So he was he's in the newspaper. It says Douglas, a Garden Grove upholstery shop owner and amateur photographer. Nope. No, no. So he was arraigned his bail was set at 250 000 and um yeah so uh you know the informers told you know on him the whole deal everybody goes to court and uh i mean the whole story comes out where he's going to kill them and everything like that it was a six

week investigation that they put this together. And so it was like a big, big, long thing. Garden Grove police, San Bernardino police, Orange County, everybody involved in this shit. Great. And the spokesman said, quote, the police woman, women did a tremendous job and the informant was a great deal of help. She was so convincing that Douglas gave her the 38 caliber pistol he was carrying after she warned him the models would be suspicious if he were armed she's good yes she is she's fucking good fuck yeah so um yeah he was uh he lived at 276 16th place uh before

that and he was booked on uh he's booked on attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder charges they got him with attempted even though i mean there was no act of a violence or anything yet that's that's pretty impressive because it was planned i don't know or if that's just so in july of 1977 they decide they need to start looking for bodies in this desert because he had told the informant that he's done this before and he's killed women and buried them in the desert before yeah so 60 sheriff's deputies were going around the desert in the in late july jimmy yikes that's how much they think there's bodies out there right if they didn't think that they'd be like we can wait till november on this right i

mean it's it's pretty hot out there. In the 70s? Yeah, it's hot, man. This is brutal. They said that this is their second attempt to find the bodies of up to 15 victims of what they think he might have. They said, quote, we feel fairly confident with the number of men we had here that the area has been covered pretty well it was over 110 degrees the day they were doing it too um yeah they said that they're that they don't conclude that there's no bodies in the area they just couldn't find any he says quote i can't say that you know you never know about the desert it's true you know yeah that's why it's unforgiving bodies yeah that's why people

hide bodies out there because they're hard to fucking find out there. So, yeah, he's held on $250,000 bail. The investigators called. They called. They called the whole thing. What is this? Oh, that's right. They took him at gunpoint.

They called something. He did an overt act when they arrested him, too, like he was trying to go for a weapon or something like that. So he says that there's a woman named Diane who said she recruited several of the 15 models that were hired by him for lesbian bondage photographs, which haven't been found. So this is why they're looking for all these people out in the middle of the desert. They said that they were tortured, dismembered, and killed with bone saws. And she said the stuff he had when he was arrested there is the stuff he used to cut the victims up. Okay. So that's what they're saying.

They said large spikes had been driven into a rafter of the shack to suspend victims as they were tortured to death. Basically, that's what he had going on in his house. So, yeah, this is obviously very, very fucking weird here. This whole thing. So they have him see a couple psychiatrists obviously let's you know you want to take a look at take a peek inside your melon on this one so he they said that uh um based on the interview from 1977 they said that he had serious and outstanding mental illness and possible organic impairment so he's fucked up he might up. He might have brain damage. He's got all sorts of shit. He found that Douglas was confused, thought process was chaotic, and that he suffered from severe paranoia.

He believed the test results indicated, quote, some level of preexisting neurological deficit, so some sort of brain injury, which may have interacted with brain injury brain damage later in life stemming from his chronic alcoholism constant exposure to toxic solvents in connection with his furniture refinishing business remember fucking richard ramirez's mom with that goddamn tony llama shop on our bonus episode solvents will eat your fucking brain away i'm not saying it'll make you murder people but it doesn't help glues and solvents both it's it's very harsh chemicals especially back then this

was shit that they didn't really know i mean they were still putting asbestos and things back then it was like you know pcb's are being used everywhere yeah and uh also a serious head injury sustained in an automobile accident in 1967 oh perfect so um yeah they said that douglas may not be competent to stand trial and it was reasonably certain that douglas did not have the capacity to plan and execute the actions with which he had been charged which seems like he planned it out pretty well yeah it seems like he had it all planned out pretty good you can't say the execute part wouldn't be there because he certainly is really good at planning. He had it all ready.

So November 14th, 1977, Fred makes bail. What? They let this guy make bail. They had lowered it to $100,000 and he makes bail on that. Which is, man. His attorney said it was a combination of family and friends posted the reduced amount. So down from 250 to 100. And yeah, he's out on the street.

His attorney says, quote, The biggest thing against Fred right now is not evidence, but the pretrial publicity caused by the overreaction of the sheriff's department. So this this is huge in the newspapers. They're going to make a lesbian snuff film and murder and i mean this was like everything they want to hear about in the late 70s like oh it's so juicy so it was really out in the public he is uh charged at the end here with solicitation to commit murder that's the main charge here is what they end up you know actually trying him on uh in the first in his trial here the jury uh comes back deadlocked they are seven and seven to five in favor of convicting him um seven to five of soliciting yeah that's what it is so apparently this goes on for a while and

finally the judge calls it a hung jury and a mistrial. And so that's no good. So he stays out on the street. So finally, the prosecutors, though, they're going to immediately try him again there. So August of 1978, he takes a plea. Really? Yes, he takes a plea. Well, the plea is, you know, he pleads no contest to conspiracy to commit assault with a deadly weapon.

That's what he pleads no contest to. And the sentence is also part of the sentence, a part of this whole agreement. The judge gives him. Wow, this is this is interesting here. Yeah. District attorney's office dropped the solicitation to commit murder. You, sir, may fuck off. Credit time served.

Credit for 115 days served in jail. Have a good one, sir. To commit what? Assault with a deadly weapon. And you get 115 days for that? Time served, gave him enjoy yep it was like gave him like i can't remember what it was but like six months and then you've already done that time served have a good one it is shocking uncuff them how uncuff them how small of concern these people these citizens have for their community well in that particular case yeah this guy seems seems like pretty good yeah seems like pretty good evidence so why the plea okay um the prosecutor

who accepted it said that uh because obviously there was a hung jury in the first one that didn't help and it would have cost the taxpayers a shitload of money for another trial that's another thing and the prosecutor said one reason he offered was he said, quote, he'd only get 11 or 12 months at the most if we did get a conviction. Realistically, the court is going to have control of him for a year longer if he had got for over him for a year longer than if he'd gone to prison because he gets probation for this point, a year's probation as well. So he's saying at least we get to take a look at him for a year now. Otherwise, he would have fucking walked anyway. So at least we get to take a peek at him for a year. The judge said why he gave him the time served and all that.

He said he did not think that any jury would be able to reach a decision whether he actually intended to murder the women or if it was just a big show because he's saying it was just a it's just for pictures i don't know what you're talking about that informant's crazy and that's all they really have but they have a tape also that's the fucked up part bone saws and dildos are just props yeah but he said he just said that to get her to you know act like it was real or whatever that's what he was saying so they also said after the first trial one of the jurors when asked about the whole thing said it was an impossible task to decide because the case uh the jury was asked to quote look inside a man's head

so they said we can't decide that so they said i guess fuck, fuck it. So time served. Back to your upholstery shop with you. Wow. By the way, his wife stays with him. Hold on. He's married. Yeah. I said he was married. And she's and she's married for 30 years.

Fine. Yeah, fine. She's got to know if she's happy about it, but she stays with him. OK, that is a forgiving, loyal woman. Yeah. So who is this shit? That'll you'll overlook a few things there and just you know keep keep whatever doing whatever you're doing on the stove i feel like i don't see things yeah i don't see him dragging a body through our living room that's not it so

who is this fucking guy basically love to know let's find out well um he was given up by his parents um he was adopted yeah and he had foster parents he was he was abandoned by by his parents and left somewhere so he ended up in an orphanage so he got foster parents including the best kind of foster parent an abusive alcoholic father that's what you want yeah who's not who you're not even his actual seed that you need. A guy who's like, you want to do what, Karen? Whatever. You need kids? Get them. Whatever.

I don't give a shit. Dude, anybody who abuses a foster kid or an adopted kid, that is so much more monstrous than beating your own kids. You shouldn't beat your own kids and hurt your own kids but at least you're basically you could have not intended to have kids and now you have this kid that you don't want and you're stuck with it because it came out of your body that's not adopted you had to do paperwork you had to go out of your way to end up with this child they didn't just drop it off at your house and you were like i guess we'll take care of him so this this is some shit here. To neglect and abuse that. It's beyond the realm.

That's nuts. He grew up in a very, very poor neighborhood in Chicago as well. Perfect. Where basically him and his friends would scavenge for food in garbage cans to get extra food. And the most common meal was a ketchup or a lard sandwich. That was the common meal of the time there. Oh, and his abusive alcoholic adopted father would

lock him in a closet for long periods of time, like days at a time. So, a very nice man. So his life is going so well that at the age of 15, mind you, he runs away to join the Marines. Wow. Well, World Wari was going on too so

you could you could kind of slip in under the radar with a fake birth certificate because they were looking for looking for people yeah hey you know yeah we'll send you right over there you want to sign up we'll get you right on a plane we'll pay you so um apparently he was arrested at some point while he was in florida with the marines sounds like he's with a baseball We'll pay you. raped by the other inmates at this point in time because he was only 15 and they put him in adult jail because he was a member of the marines and they thought he was an adult and he wasn't uh and the guess who guess who figured out that he wasn't the all the other prisoners yeah figured out he was weak and there you go so you know that's something um he did end up in the marines though where he actually was pretty valiant as a matter of fact he earned a number of medals commendations and even earned a medal for helping rescue two two drowning sailors at

one point yeah so i mean um another during this time there was a woman he knew who will say later on that he was very helpful to her she had marital difficulties during a pregnancy, and he would, like, give her food and, like, take her places and take care of her and do shit and was very nice to her. And so there's a what's going on with this fucking guy here? And then after the military, he began working pretty much immediately in furniture refinishing and in the 50s so this is this is when the solvents were even worse than the 70s and all sorts of toxic solvents and then he had his uh his 1967 car accident and then basically was a functioning complete alcoholic from 1966 to 1977 on top of all the other shit and the solvents on a daily basis and prison drinking and gang rape as a minor like yeah that's insane so by the time 1977 has come

along yeah this is a boiling cauldron of shit right now just a cauldron of solvents and bubbles popping with skull crossbones being visual in uh yeah just a big witch cauldron just well it stirs it is bad stuff man so and then 77 that happened and we'll tell you about 76 as well that led to the suspicions of the bodies 1979 now let's go to 79 let's feather our hair up and dive on into 1979 with a big disco split, shall we? Okay. What the fuck? Now, Kathy Phillips we need to introduce here. Kathy Phillips is having a bit of a hard time in 1979.

She is a heroin addict. Yikes. Who is basically just always looking for any way to scam scheme some money to buy drugs. Because she's a heroin addict yikes who is basically just always looking for any way to scam scheme some money to buy drugs because she's a heroin addict and uh that's how it goes so a friend of hers is a guy named richard felix hernandez yeah and uh that's a guy he uh he knows next door to to uh fred's finishing shop in santa ana so he's you know there's fred douglas's place and then this guy works right next door and he knows kathy phillips so hernandez would often get heroin for kathy phillips that's kind of his thing hernandez by the sounds of him, is like everybody's Igor.

Like, you know, like he's, you know, do shit and he comes with the bag and the hump in his back and shit. Like, that's the vibe I get off of him. A creepy gopher. Yeah. Wait till you hear, like, where he sleeps and what he does. And you're like, what the fuck is going on with this guy? This is just the weirdest story all over.

Everybody in this story is a fucking creep. Hernandez in 1981 starts working for our guy here. Well, not our guy. Definitely not our kind of guy. Fred Douglas. So he starts working for him in 1981 in his furniture refinishing shop. So he moves next door. This is wild.

You know what he's paid? You know what his salary is uh a cot no way it's 1979 so you know you can try 81 i'm sorry try to think of what his salary would be uh for actually doing upholstery in there he's a he works in his furniture refinishing shop that's a grand 1500 a month right it's uh food beer lodging and occasional spending cash he's like a igor like a fucking that or a west virginia uh coal miner yeah just like back in the 20s you're talking about yeah they give you the there you go enjoy the company script right that's what that's what they're giving a paul street script yeah a paul street script it's food and beer and uh the lodging isn't even good. It's not like I'll give you this one-bedroom apartment.

Wait till you hear where he sleeps. He sleeps in a boat parked behind the shop. Stop it. The man sleeps. He lives in a boat that's not in the water. He lives in a cutty cabin on land. Just a boat that's in the parking lot of lives in a cutty cabin on land just a boat that's in a that's in the parking lot of a santa ana furniture refinishing shop not dry docked sitting in a parking lot

sitting in a parking lot he just pulls the tarp back climbs in pulls it back over his head and goes to sleep i'd like to see it as a cabin cruiser but it's probably just an open bow family day boat yeah yeah what is he what's a yacht? No, he's got a fucking... It's not a sea ride. No, it's like a glorified bass boat, I feel like. And he's got... This poor guy lives in there. And he gets fed in food and beer and living in a boat.

That's how he pays the man. God damn it. Wow. How do you tell someone to do things when that's what you're paying them? wow how do you tell someone to do that to do things when that's what you're paying them apparently part of the deal is hernandez is allowed to drink beer all day every day though hernandez wakes up cracks a beer drinks beer all through the day while he works which is why he doesn't mind being paid in food beer and a fucking boat to sleep in because by the time he goes to sleep in the boat he doesn't even remember where he is in the morning i don't even realize it's a boat anymore i think he wakes up

every morning and goes how did i get in this fucking boat again where am i and he's three beers in and he's like it's pretty comfortable in here it's not a bad boat you gotta poke his head over the side to make sure he's not on the water yeah is this am i floating oh it's a parking lot i had a gilligan's island flashback here this is why there's no current all right yeah i didn't feel anything but you never know i could have been real drunk or actually he's probably swaying anyway he'll see sick no matter what spinning so uh this is the arrangement anyway and he's getting philip's heroin and he's doing this shit so he's a general gopher. He ends up introducing Kathy Phillips to Fred Douglas.

And Fred Douglas, like he asks every single woman he meets, just like Leonard Lake, he says, I'll pay you if you pose for some nude photographs while in like bondage gear. Which is their bondage photos. There's a market for that in the early 80s, you know. So she said, sure, i'll do that what the fuck i'm a heroin addict i could use the money yeah so she agrees to pose and uh shortly afterwards he said okay let's do it they went to his shop to take the pictures he tied up her hands and her ankles and he gagged her mouth okay. Then he showed her photographs of several other women that he had done to show her the positions he wanted her to pose in.

Yeah. Do this one, do that one. Apparently he had a shot list of all his necessities that he had to get. This is what I like. Let's do this. Yeah. He also instructed her to, quote, look scared at the same time. You know, that's the whole thing.

Yeah, some sick, weird fucking power trip, whatever. Whoever's jerking off to that. So anyway, he and I'm not judging you for whatever you're into. I'm just look scared is like, I don't know. That creeps me out a bit much. Anything else is fine. But if someone looks like they might not be enjoying it, I'm out. I'm out at that point.

That is the part of sex that is supposed to be you know the the trigger for you like this person's enjoying what i'm doing this that's what gets you there right but this is a it's not about me feeling good it's about you feeling bad that's how this that's one of these that's how i feel good now show me your butthole that's what we're talking about. As we all know. Keep an eye on Peter Pan. So he takes pictures of her with a Polaroid camera for about an hour. You got to sell Polaroids.

Who are you selling that to? Nobody wants that. He gives her $40 for this, which she's cool with it. Doesn't hurt her. Unties her when he's done. $40. Wow. Which she's cool with it. Doesn't hurt her. Unties her when he's done. Okay. 40 bucks. She leaves with Hernandez, who goes and gets her heroin with the $40.

So it's right to that. He might as well have paid her in heroin. So two weeks after that, he said, listen, would you help me out with something? I need you to maybe find a couple young women you know and tell you what we'll do we'll get them out in the desert we'll make a film we'll get some like bondage and we'll have them do some girl on girl stuff and then we'll kill them on film what do you say how about that so um he said look i need you out there because it's going to make it easier for these women to trust me like if we we all if I just me and Hernandez, me and fucking Igor take him to the desert,

they're going to be scared shitless. You know, throw you in the mix. They're going to smell a cutty cabin on this guy and be like, no, thank you. No, no, no, no. So he's in there, you know, just pounding beer after beer, walking around with a fucking half full 12 pack all the time. No one wants that. This guy's this guy at this point, too you know older too that's 80 fucking you know we're talking what is this 81

now he's he's 50 years old it's 50 something years old it is creepy it's it's creepy yeah so if a woman's there and especially a woman who says no i've posed before he paid me and i left it's fine you know i've done this with. So much so that I'm helping him now. He has better self-awareness than most open mic comics, James. He really does, which is, which I guess if you're trying to, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

If you're a predator though, that's what it is. You know what to do. Yeah. These open mic comics are, they're just like weird people with no self-esteem and high egos yeah which is a very weird combination they have it's dangerous yeah it's fucking dangerous so he he says you know you

come with me we're gonna do this and uh we'll get it over with we'll sell it and we're gonna make some money he told her that he's gonna bury the body in the desert so there's not gonna be any evidence or anything like that it's gonna be be super easy and we're going to make about this little probably net us about 35 grand he says we're going to sell this for let's shoot 35 grand uh yeah to by selling the film to quote people in las vegas okay so yeah he's like look we're going to sell it i got buyers lined up about 35, we're going to sell it. I got buyers lined up. We've got thirty five grand. We're going to all get paid. So she says that Phillips, the whole thing is she's not going to go to the cops or anything like that because she if you go to the cops, you're not doing heroin at that moment. Right.

That's literally what she said. She was like, well, I wanted to be high and I'm not going to go talk to the cops. It's not what you do when you're on heroin. So not happening. But she did tell him that she didn't want to participate in this at all. She said, I'm fucking out of that shit. Like, I'll pose and you can pay me 40 bucks or whatever. And I'm not helping you kill anybody.

It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people.

With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app

or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes

of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. So she also said that she continued, though, to frequent the furniture shop even after this, because this is how strong it is. If you're addicted to heroin, this is how you if you're not addicted or you don't have a draw, a physical draw to this place, you're never going anywhere this guy even is rumored to have been five years ago again. You're never going near where he might be ever again, right? He's tried to get you to lure young women to be murdered in the desert.

Yeah. Not happening. For me, no. That's how strong a heroin addiction is. She's like, well, I'll just go to the shop and get heroin. It's fine. I'm not going to the desert, but I'll go here here i mean you know it's i can make it work still i can make it work because apparently hernandez was the only guy that got her drugs so she was

like dependent on him to get shit so that's why she kept going back and that's so you know heroin is tough to get i mean i it's it's out there. Obviously, you can get it. But yeah. And back then, when you find a guy that gets it, you just go to him. Yeah. But it seems like if you've been a heroin addict for three years, you find a hookup or two. I don't just have the same guy.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. But I guess maybe she's just a lazy junkie. Yeah. She's a lazy heroin addict. That's the problem. That's the prize. Not the heroin.

It's the lack of will to try. Heroin does make you sleepy once you get Yeah. She's a lazy heroin addict is the problem. That's the problem. It's not the heroin. It's the lack of will to try. Heroin does make you sleepy once you get it. That's true, too. So, yeah, he, anyway, about a month later, Douglas, Fred Douglas tries to get her to help him again. And Phillips goes to the shop to meet Hernandez to get heroin. And instead, Hernandez isn't there, but he is. Fred's there. And Fred asks her, what are you going to do about what I asked you?

I haven't seen you in a while, and you haven't been talking to me. Yeah, what's up with that shit? He said that he called her and said at one point, she said that she didn't want to participate. Again, at another point, he called her and said he said at one point on another, she said that she didn't want to participate again. At another point, he called her and said that he, quote, had a woman with him and wanted to carry out his plan right now. So can I pick you up and we'll go take care of this right now? So he told Phillips told him that she didn't want to be a part of this shit and I'm not doing it. Take me out.

And that was that Jesus. And then lucky for yeah take me off your list lucky for her i've never said this before but lucky for her she's convicted of burglary and sentenced to a year in county jail great so that's the best thing that could have happened to her at that point in time because douglas can't get to her and that's when that's the last time she talks to him or sees him or has any contact with him. So she's saved here. Now, during 1982, he's married to his wife for 33 years at this point, Fred Douglas.

At some point early to mid-82, he just basically stops talking to or seeing his wife. He just kind of ghosts his wife of 33 years just sort of it's the weirdest shit we've never heard of this before yeah that's pretty uncommon this is just gal going out for a gallon of milk and he just never came home waited 30 years to ghost her that's fascinating right have you ever heard of anybody doing that after 33 years not the not three dates 33 years wow they have like you know wow you're pretty entrenched with people yeah joint bank accounts you can't just at that point everything join everything your name's on the house 33 years 33 years jesus christ fuck man so one of you like is the one that keeps all the medical

paperwork straight and shit you know what i mean like you need to be together one of you like is the one that keeps all the medical paperwork straight and shit you know what i mean like you need to be together one of you has the updated cards like what the fuck are you yeah that's what i'm saying it's you need to be together you're that's you formed this so uh he'd uh um at this point hernandez had been working for for Douglas for eight ten months something like that and uh he asked Douglas to have or he asked Hernandez I'm sorry he asked to get a co-worker to drive Hernandez to his house in Costa Mesa okay he called the shop and said hey drive fucking boat boy here get Igor pull him out of the boat. Yeah. Knock the can of natural light out of his hand for 10 minutes and drive him over to my house.

Would you? So this guy does. When Hernandez arrives, and this is after this, Hernandez, Igor or not, you got to take off. He arrives and gets to his boss's house, and he sees an unconscious naked woman lying on a sofa bed in the living room oh boy so um he's he's he hernandez is trying to be quiet and the guy's like oh no douglas is like oh no i drugged her she's fucking make all the noise you can you can you know play pots and pans in here here's's what I need you to do, okay? Hernandez, I need you to take all your clothes off, and I want to take pictures of you with this woman.

Like, you know, shit like that. He said, remove your clothes and pose. So then, and this is pretty gross, everybody, so buckle up here. This is kind of bad shit. He tells Hernandez to insert a baton into her like a police baton or like a like a I don't know if it's like I was going to say if it's like the front of the parade or like a release. But rubber on each side or a handle on the side. I'm going to say I'm going to say like a police baton based on the fact that he couldn't get it in there.

So it's probably a police baton. So it wouldn't fit. So instead, what he does, this is fucking horrific. He puts butter on it. Oh, good Lord. And puts it in her. Yeah. In the other, in the backside there.

So yeah, it goes in the rear entrance here and then uh jesus christ what a fucking scumbag so then douglas tells hernandez to put put your dick by your mouth there so i can take some pictures so it looks good you know what i mean back there yeah yeah and so that's what he's doing um Now, Hernandez hangs out at the house for a few days. The woman finally wakes up three days later. Good Christ. He drugged this poor woman. She was out for three days.

His 72 hours unconscious is a lot of whatever the fuck he gave her. What the fuck do you got? I've never heard of that before. That's 72 hours that seems like you have to keep keep applying right seems like he gave her a bunch of drugs and put her in a fucking coma yeah or something you know what i mean she came out of it like i i don't understand it was 72 hours though that's fucking wild but she woke up and they let her go bye nice seeing you yeah that was that so never heard anything more about that so um this goes on early

1982 douglas tells hernandez i want to find tell you what igor i want to find a place in the desert where i can take pictures of naked girls so they drove out to the desert near indio out there and eventually found a spot between two hills that they thought was right they were like yeah this is the spot to do it it'll be very photogenic august 13th 1982 dana lee who's a man by the way um dana lee had met fred uh in july of 1982 and he says that uh in early august 82 fred had asked him if he knew any women who would pose for nude photographs like you know any any chicks looking for a couple extra bucks that would you know good looking young girls that wouldn't mind posing nude so uh he told that douglas tells

dana lee that he would pay dana 50 to 100 for an introduction to these women, depending on how quality they were. Okay. Basically. So at first, this Dana Lee says, no, I'm not interested. But then he ends up introducing a woman to him. He ends up finding someone. Well, you know what?

I'm stretching the word. I'm stretching the language a little bit. He introduces Margaret Kruger to him, who's 16 years old. Oh, dear. Fuck. Who is not a woman. No. And her roommate, Beth Jones, who's 19 years old.

Oh, my God. They live together. They introduce Kruger, then introduced Douglas to her roommate, Beth Jones. And both women said that they would happily pose for him for pictures. So they have a roommate named terry allman and terry allman said that after the after they had the two girls went and met with douglas and then came back to the apartment and told allman that they planned to quote make a quick 500 by posing for nude photographs oh boy that's how it was set up so uh according to allman uh beth jones said that she and if she and

kruger were not back by noon the next day because it's going to be a nighttime shoot they're going to leave at like one o'clock in the morning to drive to the middle of the desert to take pictures james there's no street lights when the lights beautiful yeah that's yeah it's gorgeous out here under the stars jesus anyway kruger says that if they're not back by noon the next day quote something was wrong and uh you know i'm going it's a guy named douglas is his last name that's where we're going so something's wrong if i'm not back by noon so um when she's not back by noon the next day allman calls her mother and uh that's how that goes now there's a guy named george stevens who goes by dave i don't i can't of course he does you know what normally i'd be like what the fuck but in

this story this is the most normal thing we've heard so far george dave great hi george dave nice to meet you this is igor line up with the rest of the fucking freaks and let's fucking get this show on the road yeah holy shit so he'd been staying with the girls uh with beth and margaret in their apartment for about a month and he said that he saw them leave the apartment at about 1 30 in the morning to go with fred douglas now so what ended up happening here uh fred douglas asks igor to accompany him to the desert where the photo session is going to take place i need you out there you're my first ad you know how that goes you're uh he said yes master and then he hurled his hump at him don't worry i'm paying you so oh okay will i get beer oh good good beer, good, beer. Extra free night in the sea, right? Oh. I'll throw you an extra life jacket for a pillow.

Oh, okay. I'm ready, master. Yes, yes. Fucking Igor over here. So if you haven't seen any Frankenstein stuff, this is going right over your head. Even young Frankenstein, anything. That's what I mean. Young Frankenstein is all of my references. I never watched any of the classics it's the best no i'm picturing marty feldman you

know that's that's igor to me with gene wilder looking at him man so hernandez agreed yes i'll go with you to meet some girls because that's what he told them they were doing so uh uh later that day this is that dana lee later that day said that he and uh this he was the one who introduced them he introduced them to the girls they had he i guess talked the girls into it over pizza yeah they went they met in a 7-eleven parking lot and then went for some pizza and uh i don't know man you can talk me into a lot of shit with pizza. I get it. You're right.

Pizza and 500 bucks. And these girls aren't like, by the way, they're not into any kind of prostitution. They're not into anything like this. They're not dancers even. They're just girls who need rent money because they're young and they're on their own. So that's why they're doing it. And they figure they have the sense of well if we're both there then it's safe you know what i mean if there's two of us and it's safe because that's they always tell you bring a friend you know go with a friend do that so a problem is if there's

as many disgusting guys there too then you got a problem safety numbers anymore it's exactly so uh they ended up going after that they met at the 7-eleven to leave at 1 30 in the morning they drive south into the desert basically because their their girls are from anaheim so that's how they're they're going south out there and it's this is like we said what two hour drive ish i would say from anaheim if it's 240 from la give you an idea where fucking disneyland is it's a very family friendly fucking neighborhood of la yeah it's it's orange county i mean it's uh it's the it's the burbs it's the least threatening area of la it's it's the burbs yeah that's exactly what it

is it's very non-threatening it's just rows of houses and rows of houses everybody's got rose bushes and it's just it's lovely and it's nice there. So he ended up, during the drive, Hernandez is pounding his beer, obviously. And he and Margaret Kruger, the 16-year-old, are smoking weed as well. So they're passing a joint back and forth. When they arrive at the desert, Kruger and Hernandez smoke some more weed, chill out, loosen up and uh hernandez basically douglas tells hernandez do this shit you know gives him a start sparking instructions at him lay a sheet on the ground and prepare prepare rum and cokes for all four of us please

so this guy is an all-purpose he's like a butler a refinisher he's a bartender he'll do it all man he doesn't give a fuck he'll find heroin he's cock model cock yeah cock model rapist he'll do it all this guy doesn't give a shit contracted rapist it doesn't matter jack of all trades he really is i was just gonna say he's a jack of all trades really he's got a lot going on so um he does that they relax they all sit out in the desert and just relax for about an hour it's all be loose you know what i mean no one wants to rush the artistic process right it's yeah it takes time yeah so um a little time goes by everybody's chilling out and uh after about an hour everybody's had some weed and some booze and they're all relaxed he instructs the girls to uh remove their clothes it's all right let's get started why don't you guys get nude because obviously that's why we're here um kruger smartly asks and

this is like straight out of drop dead gorgeous if they tell you to take your top off get the money first it's this is right out of that okay uh she says before she does shit she said show me the money yeah i want to see the money first which very smart he shows her a hundred dollar bill like i got money look that's not a thousand dollars because they're supposed to get 500 bucks a piece for this but kingpin come on yeah that's what i mean it's wrapped in it's just wrapped in like kentucky fried chicken receipts that all it is. It's where he's been eating every night for some reason. So he, uh,

he shows her that she's satisfied by that. Starts stripping down. Then he gives Igor here, Hernandez, a rope, which was, uh, they said it was a bit thicker than a Venetian blind cord.

So not a rope rope, but like a, but not twine somewhere in between and he told uh he told him to tie them up you know you know how to do it igor we'll tie them up we gotta get the pictures going so hernandez ties their feet at the ankles and then tied their hands behind their backs that's the pose that they want um now at this point margaret is tied up and margaret kruger says where do you keep you the cat where's the camera i'm tied up i'm on a sheet you showed me money but i don't see a fucking camera and he said well i gotta go get it but i wanted to set it all up first i'm gonna go to the

car now and grab the camera okay so he and hernandez walk to the car and they go to the trunk and he pulls out a rifle. Oh, boy. He does. This is a he meaning Douglas. Now, Hernandez is kind of a little freaked out by the gun at this point. When they get back to to Margaret and Beth, he puts a clip in the rifle, loads it, points it at them and tells them quote here's the camera yeah oh boy oh this is terrifying he then told them quote make love to each other while i point this rifle at you yeah um jesus fucking christ this is awful um then for the next 15 minutes he paced back and forth in a manic fashion, shouting instructions to the girls.

With no camera. With no camera. There's absolutely no pictures being taken. He's just pacing back and forth with a rifle in his hand, shouting, do this to her, do that to her, do this, do that. Yeah. He ordered one. He ordered them to kiss each other's feet, do that, go down on each other, and all this. He said, quote, this is gross, just coming from the scumbag, quote, he wanted, quote, some tongue on her crotch.

Yikes. That's disgusting. Not that, but him ordering it is disgusting. So at one point, they requested something to drink. They were like, it's warm out here. Can we have something to drink? So he does. He gives them a sip of soda that's what he gives them now that'll fix your your porch that'll do it there you go during this hernanda we're not laughing because it's funny we're laughing it's just no matter how outrageous uh lebron james

gets tired and then guzzles a sprite i don't believe that that did anything for fixing how thirsty he is. Yeah. Soda doesn't help much. So Hernandez continued to drink this whole time, by the way. He's just boozing it up the whole entire time. And he said he was, you know, he was afraid and drinking. Afraid and drinking. So after the women had a drink, what he does is Fred has a razor blade and he slices Margaret Kruger on the neck with the razor blade.

Okay. Okay. Not like cuts her throat. Yeah. Just like kind of slices at her neck. Yeah. Like to where he opens up a pretty good wound. He then, I don't even know how to describe this. He sucked on the open wound for 10 minutes

10 minutes 10 minutes like a vampire he sucked an open wound for 10 minutes that's a lot of time a 55 year old scumbag sucked the neck wound of a 16 year old girl for 10 minutes in the middle of the fucking desert with fucking igor on the side drinking okay this is wild um once he stopped sucking on the cut for whatever reason he went and got a beer from the cooler yeah and that point he turned to hernandez and he said well they just can't go back now now it's too late you know we just can't take them back we can't do that so afterwards he goes back and he tells the two women to uh uh because at this point they were kneeling like kneeling there tied up like awaiting instruction basically and he tells them that he wants he wants them to to give him a blow job at this point that's that's the next

step in this whole thing so um after that he says well now i want you to do the same to fucking ego oh no god jesus so uh igor igor can't get it up so he tells douglas i have to take a piss i have to go take a piss that's my problem here so he runs off and squats and shits behind a bush that's what hernandez does okay he runs off and he squats behind a bush to go shit instead so wow this is a fucking disaster this whole episode my god so at this point hernandez he hears one of the women he doesn't know which one yell quote leave her alone very loud uh hernandez says once he you know pulled his pants back up whatever, he walked back toward them and he saw Douglas choking Beth Jones. Okay.

At that point, he noticed that Margaret was dead with blood, quote, spurting from her mouth. Oh, my. Oh, my. So he'll claim later on that he attempted to knock Douglas off of the girl at this point, but that instead Douglas knocked him down. He was drunk with shit all over him. Yeah, he's got shit running down his leg. He said he was, quote, too messed up after drugs and drinking beer to stop him.

He said, I was drinking rum and beer and smoking weed, and I was just too messed up after drugs and drinking beer to stop him. I was drinking rum and beer and smoking weed and I was just too messed up. After he choked Jones, he hit her with the butt of the rifle repeatedly until she died. Boy, oh boy. Fucking brutal. Then he turned to Hernandez and said, hey, heat's getting to me. Let's go get a drink.

Let's go to town and let's go to a bar, man. This is just, you know what I mean? It's hot out here. Nary a shot fired either. Like the worst ways to murder people. Oh, horrible. Horrible. He instructed Hernandez to cover him up with a sheet and push him behind a bush just in case.

You never know. No one's going to come by, but you never know. So push him behind a bush and let's go. So they go to a bar in Borrego Springs where they each have a bunch of drinks. They just kick back, have a bar, have a few drinks at the bar like nothing happened. Yeah, good, right? Hernandez has just got to be terrified of this man, right? Is that why he's sticking around?

I think he's so fucking and so dependent on him for everything. He's his lifeline. He is where his booze comes from, where his food comes from. Says the word. The Bayliner's out the window. That's it. There we go.

He'll be homeless if he casts him out. I don't think it's that, or I don't know, man. This is like a weird, that's why I said it's a cross between Bono and Leonard Lake, because he's got his ing there. He's got him, because he's got his Ng there. He's got him, and he's got his Kenny Bianchi.

They're the same guy. Just different personalities to the extreme. Ng was very barely talked. But he was dominant, wasn't he, Ng? He was dominant physically, but not of the pair. Yeah, the thought process. It was all Leonard Lake was the guy doing the probably was all leonard lake was the guy doing the talk and making the plans he was the guy in charge lake uh eng was like the enforcer

of his fashion yeah and whereas bianchi was like the lackey i'm gonna go do this do that it's weird like he needed bianchi there to make bono so someone knew how great bono was that's how that's why i feel like he had Bianchi there. Like, see, you know how great I am now. How have we never heard of this? What did I say before we started the show? So much. I said, by the end of the show, you're going to say, how do we not know who this fucking

asshole is before this? Really bad. So they go drink. They go back there. They go back to the desert, scene of the crime. And Douglas tells Hernandez, go ahead and untie those ropes and take all the jewelry off of them and anything else that could possibly identify them. Anything like that, grab it off of them. He said that we're going to toss these, you know, throw these out in the road on the way back to Orange County.

He also tells Hernandez, this guy is just absolutely Igor. He goes, dig a grave. Okay. He's now a grave digger. Now he's a grave digger. This guy has been, he's had 12 jobs today. Never mind. He should update his resume.

He could crush it on LinkedIn. Yeah. Talk about a personal assistant. This guy is like, I mean. Do anything for you. Fuck. The worst celebrity in the world would be satisfied with this guy. He'll bury bodies for you literally in the desert.

So he tells him to bury these bodies. Dig a grave and bury them, okay? And the guy fucking does it. While he's burying, Douglas leaves for about an hour. He goes, I'm going to be gone. You go ahead and bury those bodies. I'll be back in a little while. You stay in the desert with two dead bodies.

Handle this for me. I'll be right back. I'll be back. So when they ended up, he got back to the desert. Hernandez was done, I guess. And then they drove to Boriego Springs, where they took the sheets, ropes, and the clothing that the girls were wearing and threw them all in a dumpster behind the supermarket, and then they drove back to the upholstery shop like nothing happened.

Now, when they did that, there's an employee there named Leoncio Mondragon Garcia. Yeah. That's a handle right there. UFC fighter right there. Yeah, good one defeated he said that he worked in the shop for a few days before this happened he's a new employee just got here he just got here he said that the night before all this happened douglas left the shop in the early evening but returned about 1 a.m remember because the girls leave from 7-eleven

at 1 30 right he returns about 1 a.m. to wake up Hernandez, who was sleeping in the boat in the backyard, and they saw Douglas and Hernandez leave through a front door of the business and get into Douglas' car. Now this employee, Garcia, followed them until they stopped at a nearby gas station, and then he just walked back to the shop and uh stayed there and he said that neither of them he was at the shop till 3 30 the next afternoon and neither man had come back until that he hadn't seen them basically so the next day after this

there they go home the next day uh douglas talks to igor says, you know, we need to do or actually you need to do. I need you to go back out there and find that razor blade that I used to cut Margaret's neck. Please do that. Which Hernandez drove to the desert and sifted around in the fucking sand for hours and but never found the razor blade. Jesus. When he got back to the shop hernandez did it was locked and douglas told him that someone had called the shop and asked for jack and that unknown people had tried to break in so um this is what he tells hernandez that's why it's locked because people wanted to break in so then douglas tells hernandez that if

the burglars return call the garden grove police and this is their number and all that shit then he gave him a rifle as well and he says anybody comes shoot them that's it he told them no never mind the boat i want you to sleep inside you You're stepping up tonight. Sleep inside on the, quote, glue table. Yeah. Sleep on the glue table tonight and get with a rifle and get ready if you hear any noise. That's the equivalent of getting called up from the miners. Exactly. Yes.

You're on the glue table now, big guy. Pretty much. You're going to be in the solvent room next, so fingers crossed. After Douglas left the shop a woman called and asked for jack later that evening hernandez called the police after he was awakened by a noise on the roof he said at least one officer believed that those attempting to break in to the shop were angry over a quote drug burn that's what the cops were telling him okay that it sounded like one of these guys got burned on a drug deal and so yeah the next day after that hernandez and

douglas are questioned at the garden grove police department about the disappearance of kruger and jones because they were told they told people if i did we disappear this is the guy we're going with hernandez um gives him an alibi an alibi that douglas had given him a few days ago he came up with a story and he said tell the authorities on the day of the murders that the day we spent the day fishing in oceanside and then traveled to corona to look for your brother hernandez's brother who we never found okay that was our day fishing andishing and brother hunting. Yeah. Not girl killing.

Way out in LA. Definitely. No way. Yeah. Definitely not woman killing. Definitely didn't do that. Or the desert at all. Never.

No raping, no killing, none of it. So that evening, they end up after they're questioned and released, because they just stick with their alibis. There's, they have no proof. Um, he ends up, uh, Douglas and Hernandez drive up north for several days before they reach Victoria, Canada. My word. Yeah.

The whole, the whole state, the whole fucking whole West coast, all the way up. They get there and immediately obtain employment at Strong's Furniture Refinishing Shop. So they just moved. Yeah. He just left the fucking shop behind, drove up there, and got another job. How about that? Done. And if you're wondering about a career to get into, evidently it is furniture stuff

because you can just get a job on a whim. Oh, yeah. If you have the skills, it's one of those things. If you have the skills, you can get a job anywhere in the country if you know how to upholster that's always up people are always reupholstering furniture car shit yeah a car shit not so much now but now you probably have more custom stuff right whereas back in the day you'd have fixes because people would have cars longer they've also turned uh the the mechanics of a car into uh very specific at the dealership stuff because it's so fucking hard to

do now it's yeah it's really hard to do so about six weeks later they're up there for about six weeks he uh douglas tells the guy he's working for that he has to leave to go to seattle to get medical attention for gout he's got gout yeah that's a tough one, man. So, but what ends up happening is instead of that, he, Douglas and Hernandez drive to Reno where they bought a car

in order to trade its license plates with the ones that were on the car they were driving. Okay, they bought a similar car so they could do that.

So they could drive around and not be in their own cars, which is Jesus Christ. Okay, two days later later they drove back to the murder site to check on the grave there okay all the way the fuck back down yeah that's fucking crazy and uh yeah they drove all the way back down now toward the end of 1982 no one's found them yet these girls by the way they're still buried in the desert. They ended up returning.

They go back to Victoria, this time with a man named Bob. I don't know where Bob came from. What about him? Now, Douglas instructs Bob to make sure that Hernandez has food and shelter. Take care of Igor. Okay. And then he left. Just took off. I'll be back Igor. Okay. And then he left, just took off.

I'll be back later. Peace. Now, Canada's Hernandez is up there in Canada, just chilling, not, not knowing what's going on, but being taken care of by Bob. Yeah.

This is a Hernandez is questioned by Canadian detectives about the disappearance of these two women several times. Really? By the way, at one point he, uh, they actually offered him immunity and canadian citizenship in exchange for his testimony it's a pretty damn good deal that's not bad and he said no wow igor is loyal either that or igor doesn't know what immunity means

yeah he's like immunity no i get sick all the time i don't believe you i don't foresee any pandemics happen anytime soon i'll be all right i don't need it it'll be fine so easter of 1983 comes along and uh at the anza it's a boriego national park is where this was all in where the bodies are um a photographer and his wife on easter sunday are out there taking pictures of the lovely lovely desert when they discover something not so lovely the bodies of margaret kruger and beth jones uh they discover them uh they call the police obviously obviously. Not so buried? It's sand, so it might have gotten knocked off. Who knows?

You see a finger sticking out. You're going to investigate. Maybe a sand worm swam underneath them or something and pushed them up. Who knows? You never know. Yeah, it could have been a sand dragon. So once they excavate it, they collect human teeth, hair. There's some barrettes around from the hair and uh bones as well a forensic odontologist norman sperber examined the skulls and uh they ended up matching the dental charts and x-rays

of these two missing girls and they identify them now at first they said that they'll doubt they'll ever be determined able to be a doubt they'll ever be able to determine exactly how they died quote because all we have are parts of skeletons and animals had gotten to them before we did awful that's why animals dug them up worst man in the desert there's not a lot of food so if you bury something in the desert it's not like the woods like an animal will scavenge it and pull it up it will find that smell yeah it definitely will would um so the uh they're they're you know this is this is crazy the uh the police announced they say the girls thought they were going to be paid 500 to be in a porno movie pop possibly with bondage but uh

they were actually it was going to be a snuff type film or photos and they're trying to explain this shit to the public here they said neither had been uh involved in any prostitution anaheim detective larry johnson after he dunked on a guy said quote they were just two girls that didn't have jobs and needed money there you go um now about the girls patricia kruger who is uh who is margaret's mother called margaret quote my little maverick and said she was pig-headed and thought she could handle the world and she had no fears. It's an awesome daughter. It's dangerous. It's dangerous, yeah, but it's the coolest.

Yeah, that's what you want. Yeah. Yeah, if she doesn't get murdered, she's going to have a great life. That's the problem. So, yeah, you don't want them to be murdered. She's going to have a great life. You know, that's the problem. So, yeah, you don't want him to be murdered. And then Kent Jones, he's Beth. He's Beth Jones's brother. He says that his sister recently had gotten in with a, quote, biker crowd. So anyway, the police say they have a good idea where the two suspects are. They said they have two suspects, but they don't expect an arrest in the next few days.

They said that Hernandez was last seen on April 16th, 1983 leaving Garden Grove in a white van pulling a 26-foot cabin cruiser. And they Douglas is 5'10", 220 pounds,

and Hernandez is 5'9", 175. And that's what they're trying to find them. And they're saying maybe they could be working in an upholstery shop. You never know. The judge issues no bail warrants for them. So they're really looking for them. They're looking for them.

It's murder, conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to solicit and engage in prostitution. So where are the guys anyway? I'd love to know. Hernandez has returned to Orange County, and they discovered after this, when they came back, they went out and checked on the gravesite again and noticed that they had been disturbed and they're no longer there anymore. And so they also find out that warrants had been issued for their arrest so they get the shit scared out of them and they drive down to lorito mexico so yeah they go down there they spend about three weeks in mexico hiding from authorities and uh then douglas ends up coming back home hernandez stays down there though for about 10 months wow until he's finally taken into custody by mexican authorities who had

been told by american detectives that he was wanted in the u.s uh in march of 1984 hernandez was arrested by mexican police in lor, Mexico. That is police from Mexico. I assume they're probably Mexican also, but maybe they're not. It could be Canadian police who happen to be working in Mexico. I'm sure there are some French ones for the Mexican police. You never know. You know. So anyway, Detective Johnson of the Anaheim Police Department was informed of the arrest

and he and other United States officers traveled to mexico to go get him upon arrival they were informed that the local police uh they informed the local police of the about the murders and they said we want him for that showed him an affidavit and arrest warrant got them some photographs and all that so they said you know we'll take him off your hands the mexican officers said that yeah we're gonna question hernandez about that not you we'll take care of an american murder about that yeah and they said you got a tape recorder we could borrow they don't even have a tape recorder at the fucking police station you're equipped for this fellas we drove down here you expect us to have it you live here

but they did they had a police record a tape recorder they gave it to him and they were advised that they told the cops the american cops we'll get we'll get a hold of you when we're done questioning him enjoy go enjoy the sights so they proceeded to question hernandez the mexican officials they were unsuccessful in their first uh foray into this then they resorted to physical violence oh subjecting him to a sustained 20 minute beating oh wow that's awesome he he was hitting the face stomach and sides had his hair pulled uh he ended up with all sorts of shit uh fractured ribs and all sorts of bruises that's not how you get out of him what you want offer him a goddamn bay liner and he didn't talk beer is how you get what he wants beer and food he didn't talk though um at all so they stopped the interrogation and said that's okay you don't talk that's fine you don't have to talk to us it's okay it's okay

buddy it's okay igor he said but just one one thing we got to let you know though it's gonna get worse this evening so enjoy your day and then they walked the fuck out so um he was scared and then later that evening the officers did return and he hernandez said that one of them had care had an automatic weapon with him and the officers informed hernandez that they were going to quote take him out to the beach to talk to him yeah which that's a bad that's not good that's not good nothing fucking laredo that no bad things are going to happen to you out there they've already beaten you severely yeah so fearing for his life he gave a full confession at that point he was like okay i don't want to go to the beach. Never mind here. Well done, fellas.

I'll take an ass kicking, but this is crazy. His statement was typed and signed after he was told that it would not be given to the United States. Really? So they did it, and they said it's just going to be placed in the Mexican police files so we know who you are and all about you. So then the police hand him over to the U.S. authorities, they gave him a copy of Hernandez's statement right along with his statement in his back pocket. Pretty much. Pretty much. Just licked it and stuck it to his forehead.

Get out of here now. They escorted him across the border and they officially arrest him and take him to court uh he's interviewed at the police station and uh by the da and a detective the da questions really attorney racacus or yeah racacus that's his name racacus he uh he didn't give him apparently racacus didn't give him miranda warnings they say but rather informed him that their discussion was to be off the record and it wouldn't be used against him at trial. So rather than a can and will, he said it can't and won't. So before informing him of the charges he faced and the possible penalties, he told Hernandez that he was in serious trouble. And the D.A. said that he wanted to know Hernandez's story to see if he could be used as a witness against Fred Douglas.

He said he said he would tell his story. And then Rukakis asked Hernandez if he wanted the interview taped. And he said that he didn't. Don't tape it. So during the interview, I guess he never there. The confession in Mexico doesn't really come up during this whole questioning process. Hernandez thought the American police may have been given the statement, but he didn't know for sure. So he wasn't going to go, oh, do you have my confession for Mexico?

So he just left it alone. There was no offer of leniency made before this interview. this interview but uh afterward the da indicated that if hernandez cooperated that she could possibly help him out and reduce some things or you know smooth some shit over for him okay so during the interview hernandez's attorney arrived at the police station uh the da told hernandez of the attorney and hernandez said that he would rather finish giving the statement than talk to his attorney, which is the opposite way you're supposed to do that. So Hernandez, the statement he gave was pretty much exactly what he gave to the Mexican officials as well. Same thing.

And he's got to assume that they know what he said down there. So he just reiterates everything. That's what he did. He thought he thought they did. So he didn't want to lie. so he just reiterates everything. That's what he did. He thought they did so he didn't want to lie.

Apparently, before he spoke to the American officers, he didn't tell the Americans that the Mexicans beat him or any of that stuff there. So finally, Douglas is arrested in February of 1984, finally, in North Las Vegas, Nevada, where he was living under the assumed name of George Harris. Like, what? Yeah, George Harris. Took on off the Beatles name?

That's it? Yeah, he was like, yeah. He almost went as Ringo Start, so don't fucking get him. This is better. Yeah. Pauly McBlod. John Lennonvich.

Not good. So he is extradited back to California and all that sort of thing. They're both charged with murder and conspiracy to commit prostitution. Hernandez is given full immunity for his testimony. That is kind. That is ridiculous. Full immunity. You out of your fucking mind. How many 100 percent accomplice Jesus. Yeah. How many cases have we done where like, you know, some husband drags his wife along for a murder and she goes to jail for 20 fucking years for that shit and even though she wanted nothing to do with it and was this guy full that's how bad they want douglas they don't they want him off the streets i assume because this is the this has come up before uh right away they have arguments over jurisdiction because they're saying he's saying that the murder took place in our in san diego county How are you saying this is Orange County? We shouldn't be tried in Orange County.

We should be tried somewhere else. And the cops say that the original plan took place in Orange County. That's a good point, too, because you're going to charge them with kidnapping in Orange County and then murder out there? Yeah. What do you got to do in this situation? They figure that's where the conspiracy was formed. So that's where they conspiracy was formed so that's where they do it yeah so uh um they said there's a territorial jurisdiction in the county of orange

to try this matter relying on the theory that preliminary arrangements which led to the commission of the offense were held in orange county that's the court's way now hernandez his testimony uh right away douglas is saying that he's not shouldn't be allowed to testify because it's inadmissible as a matter of law because it was obtained by improper and coercive police and prosecution conduct. He's talking about the Mexican confession. He says that the coercive tactics employed by the Mexican police in getting the initial confession are attributable to the United States authorities. And that puts a taint on the initial coerced infession and the whole thing is the whole thing needs to be out now basically um the court in the u.s says well it doesn't really matter what the mexican authorities did because that's not the confession we're using we're using the one

that we got from him that wasn't coerced at all you know when he talked to the da yeah so the court's like i I don't know, whatever they did in Mexico ain't really our fucking problem. We weren't working together with them. We're not using that anyway. Yeah, if the authorities, if the American authorities said, hey, do us a favor and interrogate that guy for us, wink, wink, meaning beat the shit out of him in this country

where it's fine or whatever, that would be different. But they literally told the Americans, we'll give them to you when we're done with you. Let me get a tape recorder. So anyway, also now with psychology here, psychiatrists are involved. Now they bring in his counsel, Douglas' counsel, bring in a, they're trying to investigate his mental state

to see if there's evidence to suggest he's impaired, obviously. He had been experiencing severe claustrophobia in his jail cell. He says a problem that he's had since childhood after being locked in a closet, which that's fair. It's claustrophobia. It's that he used to have rain from Canada to Mexico and now eight by ten feels small. It's going to get tighter, I would assume, in there. A little bit tighter than that. Hernandez, on the other hand, is like, hey, this is great.

Holy shit. There's no transom in my ribs. This is terrific. I can stand up in here. This is wonderful. I like a tarp roof, but I got to say, concrete works too. It doesn't even smell like gasoline in here. It's terrific.

Wow. That's awesome. Fucking so weird. I had a gear shifter up my ass for most of the time I sleep. It's terrific. Wow. That's awesome. Fucking so weird. I had a gear shifter up my ass for most of the time I sleep. Now I don't anymore. So they said that it was because of the claustrophobia, the lawyer was having a hard time getting Douglas to concentrate on his defense. So that's why they initially got a psychiatrist in.

They wanted to try to get Douglas an individual cell as well to help his claustrophobia. And they directed, the lawyer directed the experts to focus primarily on the claustrophobia, but also see if there's anything else, you know, floating around in there that they could use for the defense. See if he's nuts too while you're

in there. Yeah, they had some, they did some interviews and testing. They found no indications of any major mental disorders. And one doctor suggested an additional testing could be done. And the and the lawyer requested and received thirty five thousand dollars for additional mental health. Wow. Yeah.

They were never performed, though, that these tests for some reason. He had the yeah. So there was a approved but not done. Wow. Yeah. They were never performed, though, these tests, for some reason. He had the, yeah, so it was approved but not done. He received a private cell, Douglas does, in jail, and the court found then refused any, he got the cell and then he refused any further cooperation in mental health testing. Didn't want to talk to the shrinks anymore. So there was substantial, basically he tried, the lawyer tried to get him to talk to psychiatrists several times douglas was adamant that he did not want any psychological issues introduced at trial that he was innocent and he wanted to use an alibi defense okay not crazy i wasn't didn't do it right wasn't there his uh his

attitude was corroborated by one of the investigators too who that's what he told that guy as well so he's like i guess that's what he wants so he was initially he initially agreed to consult with the doctors but then after that once he got his own cell not at all um so uh they do a jailhouse interview a newspaper here in santa rosa california does a jailhouse interview with him on march 9th 1984 and um he denies in this interview that he ever even met these margaret or beth he said i've never even met these girls i don't know what you're talking about he said that he and co-workers were refinishing furniture the night of the killings and that he knew of one of the victims 16 year old margaret

kruger but didn't ever meet her or know of them personally he had just heard her name before that's what he said i wonder why he picks the young one to be like affiliate right that's a that's the weird part that is super creepy so that was probably the one where there was some connection where they both knew a same person or he couldn't deny he's heard of her probably that was what it was so the trial comes up and uh right away they introduce some things into trial that we are going to find out for the first time apparently in july of 1976 there's a woman named julie mrick, and she worked for him. Apparently, he owned or operated or did something at a cocktail lounge called the Villa d'Italia. I didn't realize if it was a Mexican or an Italian place, so I had to do it.

Whether it was Villa or Villa, it's Villa d'Italia in Orange County. Now, McGettrick testifies that that Douglas approached her with a proposition. This is 1976. Mind you, this is pre the first arrest with a proposition that she join him in convincing young girls to pose for photographs and then killing and dismembering them. Oh, no, that's damn. This was in seven. Yeah, that's damning so he drove her to out all the way out to yucca valley in search of a location this was before he had his cabin he ended up finding it uh to commit his acts mcgetrick said that she told uh that douglas told her that he wanted the girls to be, quote, cut up and bleeding but still conscious.

Oh, my. You know, so they could look scared or whatever. And that her role in the act would just be to appear in the photographs that he planned on taking once he tortured the girls. So he's going to torture the girls, and then you've got to, like, be in the photographs, like, doing stuff to them. of the girls and then you gotta like be in the photographs like doing stuff to them so yeah mcgetrick testifies that she did pose news new pose nude for him during a trip to the desert but she said she did it out of fear she said she just did it because she thought if she gave him what he wanted he'd leave her alone and wouldn't hurt her he also had shown her a gun in the car before she removed her clothes and the photos were taken next to the

car so it was like pretty pretty small environment mgetrick said that she followed his instructions to pose for the photos because she feared he was going to grab his gun and use it on her that's fair very uh good instincts a few days later though so he she's scared of him yeah thinks he's a creepy guy this is why this him, thinks he's a creepy guy. This is why this is bad. Thinks he's a creepy guy, thinks he's a terrible person. Obviously something that you wouldn't want anybody else being any part of. Instead, a few days later, McGettrick approaches a woman named Vicki Pendleton, who's another employee at the restaurant, and asked if she would be interested in posing for him.

Oh, my God. What the fuck? on and asked if she would be interested in posing. Oh, my God. What the fuck? So Pendleton, McGettrick and Douglas all drive out to the desert for a photography session. But when Pendleton and Douglas arrived at McGettrick's motel, McGettrick refused to answer the door. Yeah.

So now she's out. So Pendleton and Douglas drove out to yucca valley by themselves and there uh pendleton said that um this is her testimony that he quote got me from behind with the rag and i guess it was ether or whatever and he drugged me and i passed out chloroformed her holy shit that's fucking diabolical, man. That is terrible. When she regained consciousness, he was standing about two feet in front of her with a gun in his hand, is what she said. She said that he asked her, asked him why he was doing this to her.

And according to Pendleton, Douglas then, quote, put the gun to my head and said, I better urinate on him or he was going to kill me. Oh, my God. What the fuck? Gunpoint golden showers. That's not gunpoint. Golden showers is a new one that we've never heard before. Piss on me or I'll shoot you. I don't know if those words have ever been spoken in the English language before.

Piss on me or I'll kill you. Has that ever been said before? Unless somebody on fire right fuck man jesus christ um she said that she was so nervous that she couldn't even she couldn't even go urinate no he then forced her to give him a blow job after that so she uh testified pendleton that she convinced him that she would help him in his plan to torture woman women and send photos to canada where they would be bought he's she's so that's that was her way of like i can get out of this but i'll help you out yeah it's great so then he gave her 50 and let her go after she told him he was sick from the ether uh she said i don't feel good that whatever

you put up to me made me sick so he was like cool here's 50 bucks and uh she said she would contact him in a day or two and then left the job never talked to him again basically hid from he is trusting he yeah he's dumb um so during, he brings up alternate suspects here that he believes that, you know, he's got a defense investigation. This is who I find based on this. I found the real murderers. He's like, oh, Jay. Now, he said shortly after they disappeared and early in the police investigation, Detective Grace, who was in charge of missing persons for the anaheim police department was notified by mrs jones dana's mother that she had received a phone call from a man

who gave his name as george c beckett okay gave his name as george as his first name like for some reason yeah and like george har, you know what I mean? He's running down the Beatles. I don't know what it is, but for some reason, whenever criminals use fake names, they always pick one and always use that first name. I guess it's so they'll respond to it or whatever. So George right away to me is a red flag. to me is a red flag and uh according to mrs jones this uh george beckett telephoned her from a pay phone uh in response to a flyer issued by the family to you know for missing persons to say that he had seen one or both of the victims on august 24th 1982 at a truck stop in el paso texas

so nowhere fucking near where they actually were uh so then this mrs jones notified the detective of the phone call and the detective noted the telephone number in the missing persons file and the record reveals that uh to tell that the officer called that number five times but never got an answer so they tried to get contact and back five times according to the detective a second caller who identified herself as Sandy Marin told the detective that she saw one of the missing girls at a disco tech in Orange County. That was the language there. This woman told the detective that she frequented the disco every night and she agreed to call the detective if she ever saw the girl again and never heard from her again, apparently. So there were subsequent attempts by the police to contact these people, never came up.

So now Douglas argues that locating both of these witnesses, these quote unquote witnesses who could be him. I think we did locate one of them at least. And you always have a woman who's willing to do your bidding. So any phone call, you know, he says it's crucial to the case because all that connected the victims to the case was their identification made with dental charts. He says that because the precise time and date of the deaths were unknown, it's conceivable that these girls were killed by someone else after they were seen alive by the other two okay they they could have ran away they went to el

paso they came back they went to a disco and then someone killed him in the desert i don't fucking know that's his whole thing he said that these witnesses these quote potential witnesses could completely and totally exonerate him by showing that they did not die at the time assigned by the prosecution and that Hernandez is a liar because it wasn't at that time either. Now, he also claims that the trial court excludes on hearsay grounds, and he's very upset about this, the testimony of Kruger's boyfriend, Margaret Kruger's boyfriend, Hemmer is his last name. Is it George? George Davey? No, no, it's just her boyfriend, not the guy who lives with him.

Hemmer wanted to testify that several days after Margaret's disappearance, while Douglas and Hernandez were being interviewed at the police department, that Hemmer received a phone call from a man who identified himself as Doug. And the the record shows that the defense counsel offered proof of proof indicated that the caller asked about Kruger and then said, I think that's one of the chicks that went to Arizona with Beth. So that's the other thing there. the chicks that went to arizona with beth so that's the the other thing there so the uh council told the court that he was not offering the testimony to prove that doug killed the victims but rather than to substantiate the testimony that uh you know they were fucking alive still basically so the court said it was hearsay and no you can't have that so uh uh they said that the girls were in arizona or went

to arizona at about this time when mr douglas is accused of having taken them to the desert so you know what and the guy's name is doug right and his last name is douglas so we're not going to put a lot of stock in that now hernandez like we said he is charged during this trial by the way he's charged with separate charges that have nothing to do with the murder. What are they charged with? They are conspiracy to smuggle heroin into jail. Okay. And possession of marijuana in jail.

That's not good. So, no, it's not good at all. The counsel in the judge's chambers, counsel told the judge that he wanted to prove that hernandez was quote this is defense counsel quote so much of a heroin addict and so much of an alcoholic that he even when he's in jail waiting to testify he wants to get loose he wants to use heroin that's the quote he wants to get loose so they said that uh yeah anyway he said he said that he has a history of cheating in school, a 20 year drug habit, past convictions for burglary. And he even lied to the Canadian police. How dare you lie to those Mounties, those fine Mounties said that's fucking amazing. That's fucking amazing.

They said that the record reveals that immediately following arrest, Hernandez lied to the police about his involvement in the illegal activity of smuggling heroin. So why is he going to lie to police then? And nobody's going to tell the truth here? Right. No. So they said that Hernandez was never offered immunity in connection with either of those things. And he lied. So that's what happens on cross-exexamination, counsel for the defendant,

they tried to impeach him as a habitual liar, a drug abuser, and questioned him regarding those charges. Hernandez took the fifth. Really? What? What about? On the drug charges. Okay, got it. Which doesn't look good for a guy who's your main witness,

that he's taken the fifth on anything looks bad. Trying not to get incriminated anywhere. Exactly. Defense counsel objected to his silence on the ground that it violated the right to confront and cross-examine a witness. But they said that what they're asking him doesn't have anything to do with the murder, so that doesn't count. You're splitting amendment hairs is what you're doing doing here you're splitting bill of rights of hairs and uh so they said the hernandez to make a limited assertion of the fifth amendment privilege here and um yeah so anyway they their defense asked that it be stricken from the record and they said no so uh he uh they suggested

alternatives the prosecutor explained to the court that it was very reluctant to give Mr. Hernandez anything short of a prison term on these new charges. And it just doesn't seem like a good balance to put us in that position just in order so that counsel could do some cross-examining on what is clearly very collateral area here. So they're arguing about him smuggling heroin and which really is minor compared to two girls being killed in the desert and buried. So anyway they end up letting him testify. Everything he said that I said earlier that's all from him. So all of that is entered into the record. Even

him shitting. So we everything else is accounted for. We did find a petrified log behind a bush. Do you know anything about that? Anything at all? So Kathy Phillips testifies over an objection. The objection is that, you know, she has nothing to do with this.

That's the thing here. Phillips said, quote, he wanted to take pictures of other women take them out to the desert to make a snuff flick he wanted to get bonded shots homosexual scenes and stuff like that that's what she said on the stand and uh she said that philips went for a ride with him and uh asked her if she wanted to make more money and told her that he wanted to make uh take some more pictures of women and take them out in the desert and that's when he told her all about it and uh phillips also stated that he told her that he wanted to drug the girls yeah for the photography sections sessions quote have sex with them and be really brutal about it he said he said that he quote would just make a movie and it would be a

lot of bondage and sadistic type things like that. In addition, he said, uh, that he had discussed burying bodies so they couldn't be discovered. And as we know about all of that shit. So the defense seems like a tough thing to defend here. Yeah. It's a tough one,

but he doesn't even want mental health stuff included. No, he won't even take that. He presents an alibi defense. He just says, wasn't there. Wasn't me. Prove I was there. Don't know.

Yep, that's it. And they're like, yeah, we do. We have a lot of proof that you were there. Now, Henry Akers is his guy. He's known Douglas for about 10 years. He owned the furniture refinishing shop near Douglas'. He testifies that on the morning of the murders, he spoke to Douglas between five and six thirty. The same time Hernandez testified that he and Douglas were driving to the desert with the murder victims.

So that's what he's saying. He said, I talked to him. Now, this is from two years ago, and he might have mixed his mornings up. I mean, that's the thing with witnesses. Witnesses are the worst evidence. They just are. Because people remember what you did last Tuesday. Best of luck.

Yeah. People's brains are because in our minds, we see it. We remember it. But that's not what actually happened. You seeing it is in your mind. It's real because it is real in your mind. But in reality, your mind just made it that way. So it's not what actually happened you seeing it is in your mind it's real because it is real in your mind but in reality your mind just made it that way so it's not real so witnesses don't they're terrible they really fucking and it's completely innocuous shit that is there's nothing that stands out so why would you remember it so well that's what i'm

saying that's i assume that he probably sees him in the morning early mornings probably a whole bunch if they both own these shops here. You know what I mean? So it probably happens a lot. Why would he know it's that day? So Donald Hemmer, who is Kruger's boyfriend, he also, like we said, he said that before the murders, she said she was going to visit friends, and after they disappeared, he confronted the roommate guy about a man named Douglas or Doug, and Hemmer stated that Lee described Doug as having dark hair and a beard and being in his late 30s, early 40s. Oh, shit, he must look good for his age because he's fucking 50-something. 50 something so uh finally uh karen boby who's an acquaintance of margaret stated that she thought she saw both victims at the garden grove mall in september which would be a month after the murders happened that's his defense this guy saw me at five in the morning um they were seen a month

later obviously they were seen a month later at the mall, and there's a dude named Doug out there somewhere. And your last name is Douglas. So it's not wonderful. This Bobi said, although she never met Jones, she became familiar with her picture from a missing persons flyer. So she thought she saw her in the mall. Okay. That's not good. Now, that's the other thing once something's on tv

or once it's once you see another image it completely corrupts anything you have in your brain whether you think it in your brain your brain says i know how to file this this goes here that goes there but that's not what your brain actually does it just tells you that's what it's doing because then it makes it easier for you to process it it's a your brain is a fucked up computer you have no control right and the and the picture that they flash who knows if that even looks as close to you now you know what i mean it that's what i mean my picture and my driver's license i look like an aryan brotherhood member in the in fucking prison i don't look like that it does look like a prison id it's pretty bad but like even like it's it's just fucking yeah it's so straight ted bundy they would people would literally see his picture with him there and go

that's not the guy i saw because he just looked different at different times so and when he's angry that guy doesn't look like ted bundy no so then there's jury instructions here the uh they said uh following this they said said, all right, what I have done, ladies and gentlemen, with the consent of both the defense and prosecution, is pull those series of definitions and instructions I have here in my hand, and I intend to let you take them back in the jury room with you. But let me admonish you that, for example, you will see in this particular instruction that there's some redlined and also some down at the bottom. Although it's not quite as clear from that distance.

There's some black lined out material. And that occurs in a number of these instructions. You're not to consider all the lined out material. Don't read through it. Just flat out. Don't consider it. Just fucking completely white it out. What are you talking about?

You know, don't look at that. Don't look at that. Yeah. I dare you not to look at it. it just fucking completely white it out what are you talking about you know that part down here don't look at that don't look at that yeah i dare you not to look at it he said once again i'll admonish you not to read that which is lined out unless it says read it next to it so there's that so uh the verdict comes in here and they find him guilty of everything, murder and conspiracy and you name it. He's guilty of it. So the state decides they're going for the death penalty on this one. Because what he did is particularly scummy. And yeah, if anybody is probably not necessary on the earth, they're thinking maybe this guy.

So the Jean Jones, who's the mother of of one of them obviously one of the victims she said after the ruling and all this she said it was she was glad it was over they asked her if she thought that he'd be given the death penalty and she said quote he will if i can do anything about it all right gene in other words i'll kill that motherfucker if you let me. But so during the penalty phase, witnesses come. Obviously, they hear a woman. They have three incidents of prior criminal activity that the state introduces a different woman for each one explained in detail. McGettrick and Pendleton described in separate incidents about how he forced or frightened them into posing for nude photographs or performing sex acts with him in the desert.

The third woman, Williams, testified that in 77, this is the witness, William Adams, testified that she participated in to make movies involving torture and killing of girls or women. And that was the case, obviously, that he was he got off on. girls or women. And that was the case, obviously, that he was, he got off on.

And he presented testimony by various relatives and acquaintances regarding his good character, his nonviolent nature, and his background as an orphan and an abused child. So in rebuttal, the people introduced evidence that his wife of 33 years, who, by the way, testified on his behalf,

had lost contact with him before the murders were committed and had not seen him again until he was arrested and in custody still married he ghosted his wife for like two years and then he was like by the way i'm arrested for killing a bunch of girls what do you think of that you come around and uh testify about my great character would you please so uh his story here at the penalty phase he uh renewed his motion he wanted to get rid of all the 1977 incident he said that shouldn't be involved in the penalty phase they shouldn't even know about that he uh he asserts that the court the court erred in allowing the jury to consider this evidence he says it should have been excluded. They also enter into evidence.

I'll tell you in a second here, pictures of all the tools from the first arrest. They also notes, the defendant notes that the prosecutor tells the jury that his age, 55, should be considered as an aggravating factor because this is a responsible, mature adult, ladies and gentlemen, someone who should know better, someone who is mature and who thinks in a mature and meaningful fashion. That's what he said. So that's a, that's an aggravator, which is kind of weird there.

I don't really like that one. Now mitigating when asked about his childhood, he reported all he would say is his parents are dead and his past was a blank to him. Couldn't remember. According to an investigator, though, Douglas would not provide the names of relatives or friends regarding his childhood abuse. The investigators pursued other avenues, including his wife, son, friends, and neighbors. They tried to find that. His wife asserts that she did not even know she was testifying until the night before the penalty phase began uh the mitigation evidence was pretty minimal two witnesses testified that

he had an aversion to the sight of blood and several testified to his non-violent nature in an attempt to focus on the you know doubt there but maybe he wasn't trying to fuck you exactly his family members testified in general terms that he'd been orphaned had a difficult childhood ran away from home joined the marines and they also said that he was very poor growing up and always kept large quantities of food in his home apparently as a result of childhood deprivation he always had like a he always has a stockpile now. The prosecutor in closing said here that he said, quote, you will get sympathy and pity type arguments. Like I said at the outset, this kind of case certainly shouldn't be decided on the basis of giving grades for oratorical speaking. It should be decided on what happened here, on what the factors are.

He said, put yourself in the victim's shoes for a minute. That might be a little difficult since it's hard to think of doing something so stupid as to agree to go out to the desert and be photographed in the nude. But he said, what huge offense that is, what huge offense that is. And then on top of it, what does who does this to a person's family? This is a tragedy, not just for the person you killed, but for the family and society. And in this case, the guy likes to deal with two victims at one time we're not talking about one life and one family we're talking about two yeah um he called for the death sentence saying quote

we need what we see is years of development of an intense interest in violence and killing and violence connected with sex. That's his closing. Fred Douglas speaks. He says that he has a couple of things. He says that he didn't get a fair trial. The jurors only heard from one side because his lawyer screwed him and railroaded him. This is his plea for life. Then he says his last words are, quote, This was the perfect frame up from Rukakis and Hernandez from the D.A. and Hernandez.

So the judge in the instructions said, In your deliberation, you may consider pity, sympathy and mercy for the defendant in deciding your appropriate penalty. However, you may not be governed by mere conjecture, prejudice or public opinion. And that's what he says. prejudice or public opinion and uh that's what he says so uh when it comes back and the judge is going to read the sentence uh he before he has a chance to do it douglas asks him if he had read his statement yeah while in jail douglas started writing shit loads of letters and one of the things he wrote was a 292 page statement that's called a manifesto it's a manifesto on why he wasn't guilty and why he was being screwed wow he asked the judge before he's being sentenced he goes i bet you didn't even read what i sent you and he said

quote mr douglas i read every word oh boy like that didn't help you any, basically. So then Douglas had the balls to ask if the judge would send copies of it to the families of the two victims, please. No, thank you. The judge said, no, I'm good. I'm not going to do that. Then he called Douglas a sadistic and senseless killer who took teenagers lives to gratify some weird sexual fantasy. You, sir, may fuck fuck off death in the gas chamber for you so god damn yeah he got he got it so uh he goes to jail and he engaged in a prolific rhetoric letter writing letter writing campaign to prove his innocence. From San Quentin's death row, he wrote the Los Angeles Times a bunch of times

referring to his railroad murder trial. He referred to the judges in the American court system as, quote, money-sucking parasitical leeches that don't give a damn about a man's complete innocence. Wow. You know, I bet if you read the letters from the Innocence Project people who they've actually exonerated, I'll bet none of them wrote letters like that. 292-page manifestos that they want the victims' families to read? Probably not. And letters to judges calling him a sadistic, blood-sucking, parasitic.

Fucking monsters. Sir, you're a vampire. Parasitical leeches that don't. Wow. Yeah. So in his appeal, quickly, he says that items from the 1977 case were admitted. A saw, knives, cleaver, rope, tape, and women's underwear that were found in the desert under a tarp within a few feet of where he was. He said that shouldn't have been let in.

They actually say that he was. He said that shouldn't have been let in. They actually say that it he's that it was. There's just an instruction they have to give with it. And they gave that instruction to the jury. They said that they there's no way they could have not known about him. And the court observed that there were 43 highly inflammatory newspaper articles about the 1977 arrest, but only nine articles regarding the 1982 murders really only nine yeah think about when that is california 1982 think about all the fucking serial killers are going on at that point i mean jesus christ you got your richard ramirez is the hillside

stranglers are done with that court case is going on there's ed kemper serial murder serial murder is coming out of california's asshole at this point they don't have time for this guy that's what it is honestly this that's why we've never heard of this guy it's just the time period his trial was going on yeah his trial was going on during richard ramirez like it's not it's not gonna happen it's like as if he put out a podcast today you'd never find it never no gone but in 85 you'd be the only one first one so no juror recalled having heard of the defendant prior to his trial and one juror was excused for cause after she revealed to the court that she overheard people discussing the case at a dinner

party that she had attended so uh the defendant doesn't present any evidence that the jurors remembered him or knew about him or knew anything also he uh the defendant doesn't present any evidence that the jurors remembered him or knew about him or knew anything also he uh the appeal is on the coercive interrogation with uh mexico with hernandez there uh that's a problem kathy phillips testimony tended to prove logically naturally and by reasonable inference the existence of a contested issue identity he's trying to say that uh kathy phillips testimony shouldn't have been let in because she didn't have anything to do with the murders but they were identifying behavior and patterns of behavior so that's how it was he claims he wasn't

present for a testimony for some testimony because when he was out of the courtroom a juror uh a juror asked to have something the jury asked for something so something was given to the jury and he wasn't there for it so he's saying i wasn't there for testimony when it wasn't really testimony and also the disproportionality of the sentence which is a ballsy thing to fucking appeal for. Disproportionality to what? Murder or to like of the sentence to what he did. He claims the court erroneously failed to instruct the jury that a grant of immunity to Hernandez could be considered by the jury as a reason for not imposing death. He also asserts that because Hernandez harbored an intent to kill when he acted as an accomplice, the death defendant sentence is arbitrary and disproportionate under the Eighth Amendment. That's a decent argument.

They said the court, though, says, quote, we find these contentions meritless. He was found guilty. He can fuck off. They literally said everything besides fuck off. That was all the way up to 1992 when his state appeals are all used up. So he has to go to the federal system. Finally, 2003, he's the second oldest person on california's death row he's 74 there's 617 people on death row in california

because they've been collecting them since the 70s and he's the second oldest yeah the oldest one is uh raymond johns who was 78 who strangled his uh strangled his wife and his girl. Oh, his wife in 1980, then his girlfriend in 1989. I thought he strangled them both at the same time. He's like, how did he pull that off? His wife and girlfriend. They were both yelling at him. He dates his wife still.

He's a great guy. It's very nice. So they said at this point, he's there. So they said at this point he's he's there. The ruling here is that he did not receive competent representation during his trial. This is the U.S. Court of Appeals. His attorneys, they said, failed to investigate and tell the jury about his abusive childhood, his mental health and actions as a Marine in helping save two sailors from drowning. They said that might have mitigated the whole thing. That evidence may have persuaded at least one juror to spare his life, which is all

he needed. That's a three panel, three judge panels said that. They said based on, they said that the ruling allows a new penalty trial to decide whether he can be sentenced to death again or life. But a defense lawyer says they doubt they're going to do that again he's 74 and he's on death row so they'll probably just let him die there he said based on his age and the evidence that he wasn't present that wasn't presented i think it would be very difficult to get a death penalty at this point probably

economically a retrial makes no sense is what they said that's what the state says and um yeah the uh jurors never heard that he was locked in a closet or any of that shit and uh the judge though said the gruesome nature of the killing did not necessarily mean the death penalty was unavoidable you sir may stay in prison i cannot find if he's alive or dead but he would be 92 if he was alive he's dead as fuck james yeah most people aren't going to live to be 92 in prison he's gotta be gone so he's alive or dead, but he would be 92. If he was alive, he's dead as fuck. James. Yeah. Most people aren't going to live to be 92 in prison. So he's probably dead by now, but that was 2003. So at some point in the last 20 years,

he had to have died, but I could not find like a death notice for him at all. He stayed on death row the whole time. Yeah. He was on death row. I think they let him off death row after that, but you know, for who cares?

On eBay, I found a Master Detective magazine from June 1985 that tells all about his story here, basically. It's about how they caught him and all that kind of shit. Master Detective? It's on eBay. Master Detective magazine, June 85, and it's $16.18 with free shipping. So there's that. That, everybody, is Borrego Springs, California, and one of the most bonkers cases we've ever had. James, there's so many more bodies out there. That's what I mean.

You tell me that's the first time he pulled off killing when he's been asking people to do this since 1976? Are you kidding me? He's done it by himself before he invited others. You know what I mean? You've got to tread those waters. There's no way. There's no fucking way he didn't do this before. Holy shit.

Creepy as shit. And, well, if you like that story, what a a weird segue but if you did or you like the way we told it at least get on apple podcast give us five stars on that purple icon it does help a lot driving us up the charts so thank you if you've done that head over to shut up and give me murder dot com right now get everything for small town murder all your merchandise all of your crime and sports stuff all of your your gear your tickets to live shows if they happen. Hopefully, fingers crossed, as hard as we possibly can. If they happen, we'll be happy to do them.

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They're doing great shows and they're really starting to, it's getting really good. I'm just really excited about them. So they're doing a great job, everybody. So check those those out patreon.com slash crime and sports is where the

good stuff is bonus materials and we have so much crazy good stuff on there anybody over the five dollar level gets are at the five or above the five gets not only all of the small town murder bonus all the crime and sports bonus any bonus you can possibly get this week's which the ones we just put up are amazing crime and sports is off-field injuries so people that you know there are people got bit by coyotes and shit living reckless lives with big contracts why would you yeah it is hilarious has nothing to do with sports because it's just all people hurting themselves off the field. Somebody stabbed themselves opening a DVD.

Do you understand that? Trying to cut the plastic off a DVD, they stabbed themselves in the stomach. Find out what movie caused a professional athlete to stab themselves. Find out who has pet coyotes. Yes, that's the other thing. Yes, that's the other thing. And then for small town murders, we did a hilarious episode on murders that happened in Florida and just general Florida craziness. There's alligators involved.

Florida. It's crazy. As far as the eye can see. It's insanity. So check that out. Patreon dot com slash crime and sports is where you get it all. And you'll even get a shout out at the end of the show, which is coming up very shortly here, where Jimmy will try his best to say your name correctly

and probably not succeed. But he'll try. So that's the important part. So you do all of that. Like we said, patreon.com slash crime and sports. Or if you just want to get a nice shout out

on our undying affection, you can do that over at PayPal using our email address, crime and sports at gmail.com jimmy i need it oh boy i need it the list of the people our favorite goddamn people who make this show possible jimmy hit me with the list immediately this week's executive producers are uh you know this week's executive executive uh ce of the company, is Clay Thorson. Thank you, Clay.

Oh, thank you, Clay. You're the best, man. You're a sweetheart. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. We love Clay. He has been down with us forever, and we fucking love you, Clay. Thank you so much. And he donated under a name of Dixon Diaz.

Are you proud of yourself, Clay? It's not bad. We'll give you that one, Clay. For the effort, that was not bad. Not bad at all. Other executives this week, again, Jordan Bennett doing everything for us that she's ever not. She's always in our court. She's the best.

We love her and Simon are awesome people. Thank you, guys. Nadine Ozubko, Angela Williams, Atreyu Falkor. I think, is that? That's our both never-ending story reference. Yeah, I thought so. James Fogle and Lauren Hoffman. You guys, thank you truly for what you do for us. You're the best, all of you.

Other producers this week are Neil Page, Allison Fearfile, Fail, Fearful, and Gabe Sullivan. They are a couple. And James Genbauer, Christopher Foyer, Janice Hill, Madison Rave, Rave Hall. What is that? Ray? Madison Ray Hall. And she's pregnant, and the baby kicks when she listens to the show. Well, congrats.

Clearly are pregnant with either a demon or a great child. A good taste child. One of the two. Maria Kip Susley, Jennifer Visconti, Jennifer. Nope, that's Steve. Steve Chanel. Not Jennifer at all. Thank you, Steve.

Appreciate you. Susanna Platt, Liz Vasquez. Thank you, Liz. And Liz sent you the Homicide book, and it's signed. Yes, thank you. Unbelievable. That's beautiful. It's up in the office right here in our studio. We fucking love that.

Thank you so much. It's awesome. Appreciate it. Richard Johnson, Tarnia Goodsell, her Fluffyitties, TK and Posh Rob, Peyton Meadows, Thomas Smith, James Marder, Craig Ventura, Michelle Mixell, Dave Thomas at the Ghostwriter podcast is dealing with a cancer fight in the middle of a fucking pandemic. I can't imagine. Keep fighting, Dave. Sorry. Hang in there, buddy. That's miserable.

Also, Marks Marvelous, Tommy, Amy Griffith, Kylie, Bryn Sanders, Emma Pilo, John Burnett, Matt Watson, Melinda Hollingshead, Corey Knox, Jesus, or Jesus. It's probably Jesus. Just Jesus. Ryan John, Nicole Stanford, Ty Bowe, David Higgins, Ernesto Gonzalez Falcone, Brent, nope, that's Gregory, Gregory Borelli, Kyle with no last name, Trenton Boak, Kristen Morris, Aaron Aldrich, Alan McLaren, Brad Croke, Eric Burdick, Kevin Morris, what, Devin Dotson. Hey.

Samantha Yor, Kennedy Wattring, Cooper Lynn, Mallory Bradenburg, Troy Williams, Aaron Booza, Michael Haynes, Matt Torres, it was just Matt Torrent, no, Mike Haynes. There you go. God damn it. Matt Tompkins, Vanessa Northcutt, Jake Duvall, Brad Newbert, Dan Bailey, Mike Parker, Elizabeth Hubert, Vanilla Nutsack, proud of yourself, Emma Tyrell, Jojo Amah, Brian Kaiser, Jessica Edwards, Kelly Pelletiere, Brad Johnson, Zachary Coyne, Tom V, Heather Ferris, Alicia Elbert, Nicole with no last name, Jeremy Samdahl, Keith with no last name. Sin AK. Matthew Nations. Stephanie Brink.

Cecily Moreno. Brandon Bennett. Jessica Rideout. Jake Herndon. Big Pappy Pump. What? Sean Kent. Lisa.

Variant. Or that could be a rapper, James. That's true. Lisa Moriarty. Mariotti. Moritz Schmidt. Thomas Mason. Byron Webb, David Stewart, Chicks, what is this, Chicks V, the what, Chicksie, the Bin Chicken, and Dutchie. Al C. Garcia, say again. I said thank you.

Yeah, truly. Mia May, Mia Rowe, I'm not sure. Mia May? Mia Rowe? I'm not sure. Bridget Corrine? Karen? Nicholas Warnecki?

Maren Herkim? These are all tough, James. Pete Sanok? Michael Black? Shane Shallick? Joe Downing? Susan Ellis? Mills?

That's Mills. Lisa Eaton? Jude Doyle? Tyler Taylor? Bloedel? Blaudel? We could have a lot of johnsons and like tailors and tuckers and like thomas's donating that'd be much easier on jimmy andre sound of all derrick caldwell sean newton taylor white cat uh lamadori peter hudasek katie dejarin is what is the

fucking what is happening you're a mess Aaron Vaughn Michael Schmidt nope that's Smith Byron Allen Casey Schmidt Smith it doesn't matter what what the name is still mess it up yeah Cason Merrill Brandon Wickham Dustin Barton Izzy Day Gabby O'Neill

Ronnie Ronnie Bailey Cameron Star for Claudia DaCosta Lisa Osborne Anthony McK McKenzie, Mighty Dad, Andrew with no last name, Daniel Malik, Jenny Harvey, Jacob Kalahir, oh boy, Brian Cal, call, Pryaniki, what, Priyanka, Kornapillilacker, Chelsea Guest. Gerstenhofer. Krista DeAntonio. DeAntonono. What?

DeAntonio. DeAntonio? No, there's no I. DeAntonio. A-N-T-E-N-O. Antonio. Natalie Legrand. Cynthia Donson.

Nicholas Thomas. Brooke Dickey. Melissa Neumeier. Rena Hampton. Matt Leo. Amy Stottlemeyer, Hillary, no last name, Randy Combs, Josh Cable, Liz Stalheber, Caleb Grace, Elizabeth Colloran, Stephen Cook, Jenna Black, then Martin Tanya Ortiz, Britt Vogel, Stephanie, Sophie, that's Sophie Rodriguez, Brian Murphy Kern, Will Blaine, Kim Hensley, Dan Hanrahan, Benjamin Ressler, Dave Short,

Chris Collins, Mika with no last name, Andre Archuleta, Sokubi Like It Hot, Jacob Miranda, Andre Archuleta, Sakubi Like It Hot, Jacob Miranda, Kate Westerhout, Valerie Grenier, Casey Ostrander, Karen with no last name,

Eddie Pinhead, Matt Mattei, Sir Maze, what? Never gonna happen. Taylor Nelson, Jordan with no last name, Debbie Schmidt,

Zoe Erickson, Mr. Slim, Todd Clement, Darren Foreman, Jim Gebauer, Leslie Leatherwood, Rachel Peebles, Melissa Plath, Mr. Slim, Todd Clement, Darren Foreman, Jim Gebauer, Leslie Leatherwood, Rachel Peebles, Melissa Plath, Natalie Weiss, Christy Pauly, Miranda Murs, Chris McFall, Amanda Grimes, Amanda Lord, Sam Borsten, Liddy with no last name, James Sweeten, Abraham Nebgen, Stephanie Matlock, Jeff Keene, Stephen Wilhoyt, boy, oh, boy, Jennifer Jasper, Courtney

with no last name, Melissa Lundell, Tracy Purocini, Shay Puro, nope, Tyre Bjorn Brecken Hugin, Brandon Hamlin, Ryan Frost, John Schiffer, Matthew Sweeney, Alana, oh boy, Pete Luani, Chad Walden, Tara with no last name, Katie DiMario, Lisa Andrews, Jordan with no last name, Jason Cole, and Chris Smith, and obviously all of our patrons. You guys are terrific, and we can't thank you enough. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, everybody, for all that you do for us and for allowing us to do the show that we want to do because we can do it for you. And we don't really give a shit what advertisers say because we get to do the show for you.

And that's because of all the people that do that magical Patreon shit or that magical PayPal shit and just make our lives completely better. And, Jimmy, how can someone get a hold of you to tell you that you've either ruined their life or made it better? How can they tell you? You can find me on the Internet, and a lot of people have lately telling me that they're enjoying Patreon, and that stuff, really, those words mean so much to us and so much to me specifically. My head's a goddamn mess, especially in a pandemic. At Wisman Sucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N Sucks on Twitter and Instagram. Thank you guys for being a part of this.

You're tremendous. Where can they find you, James? I'm at Jimmy P is funny. Or you can just copy or paste my last name from the show description. Or you can just Google small town murder hosts. And we'll pop up and they'll probably link to everything. You don't even have to look up stuff. It's easier.

Do all of that and keep coming back every single week. The stories aren't going to get any less crazy. So we'll be here. Will you be? Let's hope so. Until next week, everybody. It's been our pleasure. We'll see you next time. Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery

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